# RO/DI and water chemistry ?



## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello I'm a newbie and am setting up a 60g reef ready FOWLR and wondering if I actually need the RO part of the RO/DI system as my water is very hard and alkaline especially in Calcium Carb-I put our water report reading below. I realize that copper (not to mention our action level is set at 15) and other metals are in my water and know that they should be filtered out and was thinking about just using the DI part-if they actually sell that or just running the water through a filter with Cuprisorb before putting the water in my tank. So my question is do I need the RO/DI or would I be ok just filtering out the metals with DI or filter and using a water conditioner?

All are in ppm and Average Concentration found (Water Report was 2011)

Bicarb-220, Calcium-76, Chloride-16, Copper-0.01, Iron-0.007, Magnesium-16.6, Manganese-0.0003, Nickel-0.002, pH-7.7, Sodium-11, Sulfate-24, Total Alk as Calcium Carb-218, Total Dissolved Solids-311, Total Hardness as Calc carb-183, Hardness as Calcium-250, Zinc-0.019


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

With a TDS of 311, I'd say use it. But to answer your question truefully, no, its not a necessity. You do not have to run one in order run the saltwater. It will help if you did run it, as after a bit of time, yoiu will have algae and sponge growing all over your tank, that will be a nightmare to get rid of, but I digress. RO part of the water system removes 98% of the impurities, the DI removes whats left. I ran my SW tank using just tap water for years, oh, and never used water conditioner, had softies and button polyps in the tank also. The water conditioner will foul up your Skimmer, so you gotta watch that one.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

The WQ of your tap water is fine for making a reef mix. Check you ph once you have completed making your mix. Salt Mixes have a built in buffer in them that usually keeps the ph from getting too high. Test your water with tough Inverts to make sure it is safe before adding some not so tough ones. Some inverts are very sensative to Copper and even a trace may be bad. When you add replacement water or make water changes always use Dsitilled Water. This avoids accumulating Copper or other bad trace elements.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you both for helping me out with this, I think I am just going to play it safe and get the RO/DI, someone pointed out that I would end up changing out the DI quite a bit since it was doing all the work and would end up costing more in the long run


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## AZDesertRat (Apr 10, 2009)

Its the other things you don't list that could pose a big problem. What about phosphates. silicates, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, VOCs, SOCs, synthetic organics, fuel byproducts, lead, and on and on.

Yes, RO/DI is almost a must if you want consistency and long term success. I answered this question in one of your other posts somewhere else in more detail. Water is the single largest ingredient in a reef system and everything depends on its quality, don't skimp on water quality and lose hundreds or thousands of dollars of inhabitants because you don't want to purchase a $120 RO/DI unit. We agonize over lights, pumps and flow, acrylic or glass, types and quantities of live rock and substrate, why not make sure you provide the best water also? Makes no sense to cut corners on the most important piece of the puzzle?


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks they all run together
My intent was not to skimp on water quality-which is why I was thinking just the DI as my water has a lot stuff in it that would have to be replaced after I filtered it out with the RO, so my thought was actually just cutting the redundancy of taking it out and putting it back in. So I wanted to get some advice as to whether or not I would still have issues and other angles to consider that I hadn't. All the responses helped a lot, though-its funny every body says don't take the cheap way out after they say-if you don't buy the $120 RO/DI you may waste thousands of dollars, making the RO/DI the cheaper option. You are right, might as well buy the RO/DI (definitely am actually) as it seems to really help with stability and I won't have to worry to much about my water quality.Better safe than sorry


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## AZDesertRat (Apr 10, 2009)

The idea is good salt mixes have everything you need in the correct amounts and are designed to be used with RO/DI water so you get the same thing every time. By starting with pure 0 TDS water you are able to accomplish this and get consistency and repeatability.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

Would you suggest a 1 micron or 5 micron for the RO/DI


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## AZDesertRat (Apr 10, 2009)

No larger than 1 micron for the sediment and carbon block filters and 0.5 microns is much better. When you consider you can see 40 microns with the unaided human eye 5 microns or 10 microns are pretty big.

Spectrapure uses a 0.5 micron absolute rated sediment filter and a 0.5 micron 20,000 gallon carbon block in their MPDI on sale here for $120.
MAXPURE MPDI SYSTEM


The better you protect the carbon block, the longer it will last and better it will perform. The better you protect the RO membrane, ie the 0.5 micron absolute rated sediment and 0.5 micron carbon block, the longer it will last and better it will work. The better your RO membrane works, the longer your DI resin will last and better it will work, all saving you money. See where I am going here? Better systems last longer and cost less to own and operate over their life.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Fwiw for a fish tank any potable water is fine.


With thriving macro algaes conditioning the water in the tank, the vast majority of corals will do fine also.

IMHO Ro/DI is only needed in marine tanks with delicate Corals where there is not enough algae and macros filtering the water.


my .02


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Fwiw for a fish tank any potable water is fine.
> 
> 
> With thriving macro algaes conditioning the water in the tank, the vast majority of corals will do fine also.
> ...


*J/D*
Do you have any idea how much macro algae it would take to clean tap water? I presume you know how much it take just to keep RO/DI water clear of Phosphates and Nitrates. But my guess is, you have absolutely no idea what it would take for Macro Algae to clear and maintain a tank that utilizes tap water. *frown
With this aside, you can actually keep softies and LPS in water with some phsophates and some trates, as these are what we refer to as dirty water corals. But, some of them, not all, even without the use of macro algae, which would help to clean up your water, but not on Beasls ideas. You'd have to maintain a tank the same size as your DT, with only Macro in it, the whole tank (sump) A in tank fuge would not put a dent in it. You would have to have a hang on back 75g fuge in order to put a dent in the tap water. So it can be done, don't be discouraged, but for heavens sake, do not believe waht Beasls has to guide you through, you'd be pulling your hair out for months tryin to figure out what your doing wrong, when in fact you've done nothing wrong but follow advice that would get you absolutely no where, but a headache. Believe me, Macro Algae is not the cure all to every tanks problems as he would make you believe. It does help, but in proportions. And tap water would need a huge proportion of it.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

This is a copy and past from Bulk Reef Supply- When they talk about the 5 micron is it implied that it is 0.5 or 5? Anybody have experience with the 1 micron?

Only choose the 1 micron if you know you water supply has lots of extremely small sediment in it. Be aware that the 1 micron will get clogged faster and require more frequent replacement or the pressure will drop and hurt the performance of your system.
Stage 2) Choose a sediment filter or carbon block: Choose another sediment filer if you have extremely bad sediment problems (rare). The most common choice for this is the 5 micron CTO/2 carbon block. The carbon block will remove chlorine and other VOC’s (volatile organic compounds) from your water supply. The 1 micron +1 carbon block can also be used here but it may get clogged quickly and cause a drop pressure. If you have chloramines in your water supply (not the same as chlorine) you can use the granulated catalytic carbon or the ChlorPlus cartridge.


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## AZDesertRat (Apr 10, 2009)

Most water supplies today are monitored for turbidity and particle counts per the EPA so sediment and particles are a thing of the past.
0.5 is 0.5 microns and 5 microns is 5 microns. Most vendors do not offer 0,.5 microns nor do they offer absolute rated filters since they cost more money and reduce their profit margin. It also extends the life of all the downstream filters since it protects them better so again cuts into their profits since you do not have to replace filters as often.

I personally use 0.2 micron absolute rated sediment filters and since I have the correct monitoring equipment I extend their replacement way past the 6 months mark, even past 1 year in Phoenix with a TDS over 600 and hardness that exceeds 20 grains per gallon so don't believe everything you read.
A 1 micron absolute rated sediment filter is the most coarse I would consider and 0.5 or 0.2 is better. Same with the carbon block, why choose a 5 micron version good for a maximum of 9,000 gallons (1800 treated and 7200 waste at 4:1 waste ratio) when you can get a 0.5 micron good for 20,000 gallons (4000 treated and 16000) waste for about the same money.

Chloramines are a walk in the park for a good carbon block 1 microns or less, catalytic carbons are a waste of money at normal drinking watre levels of 1-2 mg/L, they are designed for industrial applications. Its the ammoniaportion of chloramines you need to worry about and the carbon does nothing for that, only the chlorine portion. You need and want good DI resin for ammonia since RO is only partially effective at all forms of ammonia.

BRS is great for chemicals but has not been around long enough to know all about water treatment and RO/DI, ther are other with 25+ years in the industry that can be trusted.

beaslbob is entitled toi his opinion but it is just that and I respect it but it is not shared by many. A stable water supply free of contaminants is a critical part of a successful reef system. I agree macro algaes and other chemical and biological methods are also critical but why add something needlessly to the system and tax its resources when RO/DI is cheap and plentiful? Fish only or reef, both deserve the best we can provide for them or we should not be in this hobby. I have seen far too many newcomers drop out of the hobby due to por water quality or other issues that have a simple solution. There really is no reason when we have such a vast amount of information available to us today.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

But BRS doesn't offer a 0.5 micron, they do offer a 1 micron though??


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## AZDesertRat (Apr 10, 2009)

Check out Spectrapure, they not only sell 1.0, 0.5 and 0.2 micron sediment filters, they are also absolute rated rather than the less efficient nominal rated.

Untitled Document

Plus they have their MPDI refurb on sale for $120. You will not find a similar unit at BRS or anywhere else.


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## drunkenbeast (Nov 13, 2011)

but because the BRS carbon block is .06 wouldnt that finish filtering the small sediments at that stage?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> *J/D*
> Do you have any idea how much macro algae it would take to clean tap water? I presume you know how much it take just to keep RO/DI water clear of Phosphates and Nitrates. But my guess is, you have absolutely no idea what it would take for Macro Algae to clear and maintain a tank that utilizes tap water. *frown
> With this aside, you can actually keep softies and LPS in water with some phsophates and some trates, as these are what we refer to as dirty water corals. But, some of them, not all, even without the use of macro algae, which would help to clean up your water, but not on Beasls ideas. You'd have to maintain a tank the same size as your DT, with only Macro in it, the whole tank (sump) A in tank fuge would not put a dent in it. You would have to have a hang on back 75g fuge in order to put a dent in the tap water. So it can be done, don't be discouraged, but for heavens sake, do not believe waht Beasls has to guide you through, you'd be pulling your hair out for months tryin to figure out what your doing wrong, when in fact you've done nothing wrong but follow advice that would get you absolutely no where, but a headache. Believe me, Macro Algae is not the cure all to every tanks problems as he would make you believe. It does help, but in proportions. And tap water would need a huge proportion of it.


FWIW my 55g with an in tank refugium maintained unmeasureable nitrates and phosphates despite haveing 5-8 fish including a yellow tang and blue tang and also having wet/dry with crushed oyster shells. non sps type corals thrived. all with straight untreated tap water and no water changes.

the world heath organization did a study of copper toxicity on corals and reported that a macro algae bio accumulated copper from 40 ppm to 1040ppm when exposed to a 250ppm copper concentration for two weeks. they also reported the bioaccumulation rate was directly proportional to time and concentration.

RC carried an article on copper at the tap concentrations and reported that in 70% of the US housholds the concentration was 250ppm or less.

So yes I do have some idea. *old dude


worth at most .02


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob;156912[B said:


> ]FWIW my 55g with an in tank refugium maintained unmeasureable nitrates and phosphates despite haveing 5-8 fish including a yellow tang and blue tang[/B] and also having wet/dry with crushed oyster shells. non sps type corals thrived. all with straight untreated tap water and no water changes.
> 
> the world heath organization did a study of copper toxicity on corals and reported that a macro algae bio accumulated copper from 40 ppm to 1040ppm when exposed to a 250ppm copper concentration for two weeks. they also reported the bioaccumulation rate was directly proportional to time and concentration.
> 
> ...


That statement in red lets everyone know exactly who they are dealing with. Thanks for that posting!
And I would not give you .02 for that statement. I'm to tired of chasing your crap posts, I'm leaving this one alone. Post what you will, I think i've let everyone know who they are dealing with, you've just made it that much easier.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

@AZDesertrat, if Spectrapure isn't paying you they should be. I have no doubt you are right about their systems being better in quality and performance than BRS , as you definitely seem to know what you are talking about and have helped me understand what it is I am even buying (RO/DI). Being that you have convinced me I do need one-I just don't think I need the BMW version, hopefully the economy BRS model will do fine with a 1 micron-also I think that the filters are interchangeable, so if they are, and I find I need a 0.5 or smaller I may be able to just buy replacement filters from Spectrapure


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

@Beaslbob, I have definitely heard of people using tap water and being successful and was hoping I could do the same, I guess I just don't trust this city water. I tested my tap water for nitrates a few weeks ago (curiosity) with the API master kit for freshwater and it said that I had 20ppm.


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## Carinea (Feb 9, 2012)

Copper was and honestly still is one of my main concerns-once its there its there. Also I read that Seawater levels of copper are like 10-40 PPBillion and if that is true, then having just 40 PPMillion is a whole lot copper. On the other side of that argument-I would think that the Magnesium in the water would have some sort of binding effect on the copper to the point that some would not be taken up by the corals and accumulated-I could be very wrong on this though


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Carinea said:


> @Beaslbob, I have definitely heard of people using tap water and being successful and was hoping I could do the same, I guess I just don't trust this city water. I tested my tap water for nitrates a few weeks ago (curiosity) with the API master kit for freshwater and it said that I had 20ppm.


Actually it is not nitrates or ammonia or phoaphates that are the problem for the more delicate corals. After all macros and other algae can consume those from the tap water and the much higher amount from the bioload from the fish.

the real problem is copper, strontium, and other ions. Those do come from the water with less contribution from the bioload.

So if you use macro algae to keep those things at bay and limit the effects of the tap water by just topping off, you can maintain successful reef tanks. But you do have to provide the light and food the corals need as well.

my .02


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