# persistent, stubbornly high nitrites on 2 tanks



## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi,

I'm having chronic serious water quality issues on my 180 gallon tank and my 75 gallon tank.

I ran into water quality problems after dosing with Levamisole about 2 months ago. It also happened around the same time that I had added additional fillter media. Levamisole isn't *supposed* to disrupt the biological filter, but it seems like a heck of a coincidence... I did increase feeding during the period to try to get my fish to eat, maybe that had overwhelmed the biological media and caused a dieoff or something?

The tanks were previously cycled just fine. 

Current water parameters are : 

pH 7.2
ammonia <=0.25ppm 
nitrite = 2PPM (and constantly rising)
nitrates vary but I definitely have them, about 5ppm

NOTE: My tap water also has tested at 0.5ppm ammonia currently, that probably isn't helping things when I do a water change, but ammonia is less toxic than nitrites, so I guess it's still a net benefit to change the water. My tap water tests zero for nitrites.

I am at the point where I am having to change 50-70% water at least every 2 days just to keep the nitrites at bay at 1ppm. This is very time consuming and using a crapload of water because my total water volume is about 240gal for my 180 (due to the 75gal sump I have), and about 85gal for my 75 gallon. So I'm changing like 170-220 gallons of water at least every two days. This is just nuts!

Also, I get rising nitrites in both tanks even when I stop feeding for a day.

Here's a description of my filtration setup:

The 180 gallon has a both a Fluval FX5 and a wet-dry setup.

On the FX5, each media tray is filled with ceramic rings, topped by blue filter pad.

On the wet-dry:
I have 3 sterilite shelves sitting on top of a 75gal sump for the 180:

Top shelf: blue filter pad
Middle shelf: Matala filter pad (this is pretty coarse) with blue filter pad on top 
Bottom shelf: Matala filter pad (again, pretty coarse) with blue filter pad on top

I've noticed the matala pads tend to drain extremely fast as they are designed for very high waste levels (they are pond media). I'm wondering if perhaps the nitrifying bacteria is simply having trouble establishing on them? Also I have pretty powerful flow from my return pump. it's a Sicce Syncra HF 12.0 that's throttled back about 50%, still probably doing 1600-2000GPH at 5' of head height. Perhaps the bacteria is having trouble 'sticking' to this plasticky, coarse pad due to the high flow rate? Maybe they are only efficient if they are partially clogged with debris?

I'm mystified as to why I am having chronically high nitrites. I'm wondering if there's just a dead fish and I can't find it. One of my congo tetras has been MIA for weeks.... but don't you think it would be done decomposing by now? It wasn't more than a 2.5" fish.

Also, I don't understand why the FX5 isn't cutting it...I'm pretty sure it's in good operating condition.

The 75 gallon is also having similar issues. It has a 20 gallon sump with a Mag9.5 return pump. There are 3 wet-dry shelves, filled with matala pads and blue filter pads.It also has 3 sponge filters in the tank, one of which I recently had moved over from a relatively mature 30 gallon tank. 

I'm thinking about just adding more biomedia to the 180 to see if that helps. I am not convinced the matala pads are really doing much at all, so am thinking about doing the following:

Top shelf: Blue filter pads (used)
Middle shelf : Seachem Matrix 
Bottom shelf : Seachem Matrix

I think I will do the same sort of thing in the 75...Thoughts? Something is seriously not right. :-(

P.S. I have also tried inoculating these tanks with bottled autotrophic nitrifying bacteria from my LFS and that also seems to have made no difference.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I know you tested your tap but I will say it the time of year that water suppliers flush the main lines(they are here this week even).Next I would add a sponge or two(as many as you want) in the sump after the drawers.Big sponge like for aq110.
I wouldn't be looking for the drawers to hold much of any BB and I even rinse my drawer media in tap water.All I have in my sump for bio is sponges.
You got any purigen going?I keep 4 100ml bags just floating in my sump and they definately work as they change color in a month.
Have you use your Nitrite kit on any other tanks and gotten a zero reading?You did say you got 0 on tap huh?
When's the last time you cleaned the canister?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi coralbandit, thanks for your quick response.

I'm aware my water company is going to be flushing their mains sometime in the next 2-3 weeks. I'm not thrilled about having ammonia readings on my tap water right now...I hope that after they flush the mains the water quality will improve...

I cleaned the FX5 canister about a month ago -- when it had actually *clogged* because I hadn't cleaned it out often enough. Might have lost cycle there as I'm not sure how long it had clogged, could've been a few days...) That probably was a contributing factor to my loss of cycle on that tank. That occured when i was treating with levamisole.

Two of my tanks are doing perfectly fine: the new 93 gallon I set up (which uses two Eheim 2217 canisters), and the 30 gallon tank (which uses 1 eheim 2217 canister). My gut tells me my current wet/dry filtration systems are just not very efficient with these matala filter pads? I'm hoping adding more biomedia will help the nitrifying beneficial bacteria colonize. I clearly have *some of it* as I'm getting nitrate readings but seems like not *enough* since I'm getting constantly rising nitrite readings on both tanks.

Also I forgot to mention I already have two pretty good size sponge filters already running nonstop in my 180's sump for many months. 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I know you tested your tap but I will say it the time of year that water suppliers flush the main lines(they are here this week even).Next I would add a sponge or two(as many as you want) in the sump after the drawers.Big sponge like for aq110.
> I wouldn't be looking for the drawers to hold much of any BB and I even rinse my drawer media in tap water.All I have in my sump for bio is sponges.
> You got any purigen going?I keep 4 100ml bags just floating in my sump and they definately work as they change color in a month.
> Have you use your Nitrite kit on any other tanks and gotten a zero reading?You did say you got 0 on tap huh?
> When's the last time you cleaned the canister?


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

I think there are two problems here, although they are probably related.

1) Your tank is not, or is not staying, cycled. I've used levamisole mid cycle and not had it make things worse, so I think that can be ruled out. This often implies a young tank which seems not to be the case here. I normally next ask about overstocking which I don't think you are based on your signature line. After that would be a pH lower than 6 which you don't have.
2) You clogged an FX5. It takes a fair amount of organic matter to do this, are you by chance feeding very heavily? Gunking up the inside of a filter usually involves a decent bacteria population, although somehow you still have nitrite present despite this.

Once gunked up, most foam (don't replace it, just rinse in old tank water) or other media does a decent job. I wouldn't worry too much about one brand vs. another. Bioballs seem particularly poorly adept at actually containing bacteria, but between your foam and ceramic bits I wouldn't expect an issue.

Does your local water company have chloramine rather than chlorine? Is your dechlor sufficient for this?
Are there any strong cleaning chemicals, air fresheners, or other things used frequently around the tank?
Do you have pets that produce a lot of ammonia near the tank? A large number of snakes or pet rodents would do this. This may seem like a silly question, but I know someone it is an issue for.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

None of the tanks are terribly mature, I had to move the fish from my previous house to my current house back in December. 

I was feeding heavily when I was using levamisole because the fish had diminished appetite and there was probably a significant amount of uneaten food that got into the filters, that probably caused the clogging of the FX5. Note to self: you can't really force feed fish if they aren't hungry! :-|

I just added about a gallon of seachem matrix media to the 75's sump and 2 gallons to the 180's sump. I also cleaned the gunk out of the pads in old tank water. They were getting dirty. Here's some pics of the new setup:

75 gallon sump (acrylic): drip tray, then a lot of pads, then blue matala pad (just to space things out), then seachem matrix, then black matala pad, then more seachem matrix, then another black matala pad.

<a href="http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/zwanged/media/IMG_20140430_195720028_zpse4f3c27e.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/zwanged/IMG_20140430_195720028_zpse4f3c27e.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20140430_195720028_zpse4f3c27e.jpg"/></a>

180 gallon wet/dry (from sterilite shelving): 

top shelf: ton of pads / random leftover sponge filter media that I tossed in. Just noticed I should move that small bag of ceramic media to be with the seachem matrix, it is not in the right place  

second and 3rd shelves: seachem matrix biomedia

<a href="http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/zwanged/media/IMG_20140430_210114891_zps813d0acc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/zwanged/IMG_20140430_210114891_zps813d0acc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20140430_210114891_zps813d0acc.jpg"/></a>

A closeup of the 180's filter media:

<a href="http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/zwanged/media/IMG_20140430_210110104_HDR_zpsee3770ac.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/zwanged/IMG_20140430_210110104_HDR_zpsee3770ac.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20140430_210110104_HDR_zpsee3770ac.jpg"/></a>

Question -- do you think my filter pads in a drip-tray setup on the 75will work better totally submerged, partially submerged, or not submerged at all? I'm trying to figure out what the best water level will be there...

No other pets. Just fish 

I'm not using any bioballs anywhere.

I need to talk to my local water company about them using chloramine vs chlorine -- I will need to confirm with them. Still, that doesn't account for my other 2 tanks being apparently fine though it still would be very good to know so I can take precautions.

No strong cleaning chemicals / air fresheners.

-Zeke



jccaclimber2 said:


> I think there are two problems here, although they are probably related.
> 
> 1) Your tank is not, or is not staying, cycled. I've used levamisole mid cycle and not had it make things worse, so I think that can be ruled out. This often implies a young tank which seems not to be the case here. I normally next ask about overstocking which I don't think you are based on your signature line. After that would be a pH lower than 6 which you don't have.
> 2) You clogged an FX5. It takes a fair amount of organic matter to do this, are you by chance feeding very heavily? Gunking up the inside of a filter usually involves a decent bacteria population, although somehow you still have nitrite present despite this.
> ...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Stop feeding your fish until the nitrites go away.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I found the reason why I"m having trouble cycling...

I spoke to my water company. They say their water will have a mix of chloramine and chlorine from May - September, and chloramines from October to April.

This explains why I'm having trouble cycling and why aggressive water changes are actually making cycling *MORE* difficult. Incidentally, the tanks where I'm having fewer water quality issues on are the ones I'm changing water on less!

The aggressive water changes I did after dosing levamisole likely exacerbated the situation!

Looks like I'm going to need to set up some holding trash cans to let prime neutralize the chloramines in the water in 24 hours :-( 

Lesson learned the hard way...Do I need to use any more prime than normal for chloramine neutralization? Or is prime really doing nothing and the chloramine is just offgassing?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Prime should do the job just fine.You could use a little more (they give dose for chlorine/chloramine levels)if you thought you have more in your water.
I have a chlorine test kit(got it from charles{inkmaker}) ,but I would think the basic test kit from a pool supplier would work also.It just changes color(yellow) if there is any chlorine/chloramine in the water.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Also consistent with this, the tanks that had the highest *turnover* per hour had the most trouble cycling. This makes sense as there's more chloraminated water passing over the filter media per hour, which is making it harder for the nitrifying bacteria to establish.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

It's ironic that I was probably making things worse by doing at least 50% WC when nitrites hit 2ppm...because of the problems with my tap water.

That said, it does seem like the additional biomedia (and not changing water) did help, at least on the 75gallon. Nitrites are down to 0.5ppm (they were 2ppm last night).

Nitrites are still high on the 180 (~~2ppm), i will just not feed and see if they go down. If they stay high then maybe it's a dead missing congo tetra causing problems?

I need to locate a utility pump and powerhead(s) and heater(s) and some trashcans to prep some water....

Or does prime neutralize chloramine instantly and I should maybe just double dose it to be safe?

My current method for doing water changes is to just add a bunch of prime for the total tank water volume and then add water.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Also confirmed this in the water quality report for the year 2013: 0.07 - 2.8ppm chloramines observed.

http://www.shorelandswater.com/SWC-CCR2014.pdf

So definitely an issue! Should've caught this sooner. Doh! :-|

-Zeke


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Prime claims to work instantly as long as you dose to the full water volume of the tank. I wouldn't run the incoming water directly through the filter before it hits the Prime in the tank, but I refill (with chloramine) directly into my tanks. Double dosing the Prime wouldn't hurt. You will still need to keep up the water changes to keep the nitrite down until the cycle gets going.
You may want to look at Seachem Safe rather than Prime since you are using large tanks. Much cheaper in the long run, and IMO easier to dose if you have the right size measuring spoon. I'm not sure about Prime, but Safe lists the dosage not just for the water volume, but for the concentration of chlorine/chloramine that it treats. If your concentration is higher than that then you can figure out how much of an overdose is needed. Fortunately mild overdosing isn't harmful, so simply doubling it may be easier.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I use SAFE.It is way cheaper than prime!I pre mix mine with ro/di so I can just pour x into my prep barrels.It works instantly at prescribed dose in the barrel.
I think for the same price I get 20,000 gallons of treatment opposed to 5,000 gallons from prime(you're all paying to ship water!).
It is the same stuff as prime per seachem(even has rotten egg smell to the powder!)
I forgot to add a 0 to gallons!I had to check bottle.The safe says 1 kilo(aprox$20 at kensfish) can treat 200,000 gallons!


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