# Questionable Ammonia Levels



## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

I know certain elements for the cycling process, but need some reminders on how to deal with increasing ammonia levels. I did a vac, 45% water change last week and I had only high NitRATE levels, ammonia was 0. I can only assume I had good bacteria colonies breaking down the ammonia. 

I made sure not to vac all the substrate to not suck out all the bacteria but now my readings are at .50, when they were .25 yesterday. (water tester, no strips)
Will they increase more, and should I do a partial water change without vacing? Or will this disturb the process?

I can cut down on the amount of food they get, but they barely get any as is. Any info would be appreciated.
The water is a tad cloudy today, when it was all clear the last few days.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Laurencia7 said:


> I know certain elements for the cycling process, but need some reminders on how to deal with increasing ammonia levels. I did a vac, 45% water change last week and I had only high NitRATE levels, ammonia was 0. I can only assume I had good bacteria colonies breaking down the ammonia.
> 
> I made sure not to vac all the substrate to not suck out all the bacteria but now my readings are at .50, when they were .25 yesterday. (water tester, no strips)
> Will they increase more, and should I do a partial water change without vacing? Or will this disturb the process?
> ...


Hello L...

Most of the good bacteria will be in the filter media, but there will be some in the gravel, so no vacuuming is necessary.

If the tank was mine, I'd test the water every day to monitor the ammonia and nitrites. If my test showed a trace of pollutants, I'd remove only 25 to 30 percent of the water, just enough to get the water chemistry back into the "safe zone" for the fish. No need to do large water changes until the tank is cycled.

Don't fret over tank water that's a bit cloudy. It will clear up once the tank cycles. When it does, large, weekly water changes will keep the water properties stable and the water clear.

Just a thought to consider or not.

B


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Laurencia7 said:


> I know certain elements for the cycling process, but need some reminders on how to deal with increasing ammonia levels. I did a vac, 45% water change last week and I had only high NitRATE levels, ammonia was 0. I can only assume I had good bacteria colonies breaking down the ammonia.
> 
> I made sure not to vac all the substrate to not suck out all the bacteria but now my readings are at .50, when they were .25 yesterday. (water tester, no strips)
> Will they increase more, and should I do a partial water change without vacing? Or will this disturb the process?
> ...


Can you tell us how long the tank has been set up for, how big it is and what fish you have as well as any major changes like adding more fish. That will help us to advise you on what is happening in your tank.


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

It's a 20 gallon, been setup since 2002, but did a complete water change last summer. I just got a new filter, the only major change in the tank. 2 Orandas in it. 

No vacuuming? for now...or in general? I think the major issue is this new filter did not have the proper bacteria. Unfortunately I did not research the best one (Fluval C3) nor leave the old one in (no room) or transfer the media from that filter to the other. I have had the new filter since March, but my PH was lowering, and my NiTrates levels were too high, that's why I did a vacuum/water change.

I just want to know how to get my fish through this transition safely.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

When you add a new filter you need to run both new and old for at least a couple of weeks to seed the new filter. What is happening now is your going through another cycle till the bacteria builds up.

Even though there is bacteria on the gravel you have fish that produce a lot of waste and I would suggest vac the gravel weekly and keep an eye on the levels if they get above .50 I would do a water change so the ammonia don't damage the fish.


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

I see some conflicting advice here, I can water change and vac at the same time. Or water change and not disturb the substrate? Which is the best outcome? I didn't feed my fish tonight to see if it effects the water test tomorrow. My PH had gone up since the change from 6.0 to 6.4 which I figured was good since Orandas prefer a higher PH.

The main advice I am hearing is to change the water 25% every week until the fish get through the cycle? Is this correct? and with or without vacuuming the gravel? 

Also, what's the best advice for vacuuming substrate, leave small areas untouched to leave some bacteria, or is this not necessary? There are so many conflicting ideas out in the web it's hard to know which is best.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Basically it comes down to what you want to do. When I do water changes on my tanks I vac at the same time and I vac all of it. Doesn't hurt a thing. I would test your water every couple of days and if you see a rise in ammonia of .75 do a water change. other wise the ammonia can poison and damage a fish. Same with nitrites. When you vac your aren't removing much bacteria. Some people thinks it does but it doesn't really. The bacteria usually have a pretty good hold on objects.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think you just have to do what works for you. With two gf in a 20g tank your bio filtration is going to be on the edge always or near capacity if you will. Any change, even minor, could cause a small spike. If you do your water change and vacuum gravel while you do it and do the whole tank and water test fine afterwards (a few hours after), then you know it is a good routine. If you get a small spike do like many do and do 1/2 one week, the other 1/2 the next. The big thing is not do a complete gravel vac and filter changes the same week. 

Also, with the tank being overstocked I think 50% water changes are going to do you much better. You will not be able to keep nitrates down to safe levels with just 25% weekly. This tank should have cycled long ago.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Laurencia7 said:


> It's a 20 gallon, been setup since 2002, but did a complete water change last summer. I just got a new filter, the only major change in the tank. 2 Orandas in it.
> 
> No vacuuming? for now...or in general? I think the major issue is this new filter did not have the proper bacteria. Unfortunately I did not research the best one (Fluval C3) nor leave the old one in (no room) or transfer the media from that filter to the other. I have had the new filter since March, but my PH was lowering, and my NiTrates levels were too high, that's why I did a vacuum/water change.
> 
> I just want to know how to get my fish through this transition safely.


I know it can be confusing. Different people have different ways of doing things, also different setups require different care. Of course there is also just some bad advice out there but you will get the hang of working out what is good information from people who know what they are talking about and how that applies to you. 

I'll try to break things down a bit and see if that helps.

*Water changes:* The 'standard' advice on water changes is often 25% weekly. This is sound advice for the average tank but can be influenced by a lot of factors. We all tend to find out what works for our own tanks as far as how much and how often water is changed. Goldfish often require larger water changes because they are messy fish. In your case two goldfish in a 20 gallon makes you very heavily stocked. jrman83 gave good advice about doing larger water changes of 50% weekly.

As susankat mentioned you can also use your tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to tell you if you are doing enough water changes. You may even find that water changes more than once a week are a good idea.

*Vacuuming:* You will tend to get two different 'standard' views on this one. Some recommend that you only vac 1/2 the tank each time. Others say to vac the whole lot every time. I'm with susankat on this one I like to vac the whole substrate (in unplanted tanks). The idea being to get as much of that goldfish waste out as you can before it breaks down into ammonia in the tank. I have never had problems with ammonia spikes from doing this. Jrman83 is also an experienced fish keeper and he has had a different experience which is why he prefers to only vac 1/2 the substrate at one time so that the bacteria is not overly disturbed. Probably there differences in substrate type, tank setup or methods that make for slightly different results. In time you will decide what is best for you. The important thing is that you do vac, otherwise the waste will build up and cause long term problems. 

No vacuuming is fine in well planted tanks as the fish waste is used by the plants. The only other time no vacuuming is sometimes recommended is in a new tank setup that is just starting the cycle. This is probably what BBradbury was referring to. The idea is to give bacteria a chance to get established. Also in a newly setup tank there is no build up of fish waste so there is nothing to feed the bacteria, in that case leaving a little 'bacteria food' to settle in the gravel might be helpful. Your tank is well established so there is no need to worry about that.

*Changing filters:* As you have seem to have already realized when you change over filters run both together for a while or put old filter media in the new filter. Because you didn't do that it likely caused ammonia spikes. The new filter has been in for a while so it should be getting fairly well established. If ammonia problems persist much longer you know that it is caused by overstocking rather than the new filter. Even with good maintenance with your stocking level, as jrman says, you are always going to be 'on the edge'.

*Stocking level and tank size: *Again fairly standard good advice on goldfish and stocking levels is 30 gallons for the first one and 10 gallons for each one after that as well as excellent filtration. That means you should really have a 40 gallon for your two. Have you had the same fish since 2002? If so they should be quite large by now. You might get away with a smaller than recommended tank for a while with young fish but as they grow you are going to start battling with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate problems. Ammonia and Nitrites should be 0 in an established tank. You can expect spikes after things like changing the filter, this can be offset by extra water changes if needed. With goldfish being so messy it is not uncommon to get small spikes of .25 from time to time. Thankfully goldfish are also hardy and withstand low levels for short periods well. If you have larger spikes of ammonia or nitrite or constant levels showing in an established tank then it is a problem. Nitrates are not as toxic as ammonia or nitrites but you should aim to keep them below 40ppm.


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

I had originally a good balance. My Ammonia was 0, my Nitrites were 0, my ph was low 6.0 and my NiTrates were too high and I was growing too much algae. Since I vacuumed it has thrown all my levels off, now today my ammonia is at 2.0, way too high and I didn't feed the fish the water is still cloudy, and the ph is back to 6.0.

*Note: Had aquarium set up for 5 weeks 3 yrs ago, before I introduced Painter. Last year did a 95% water change, and had them in a smaller tank until that new water cycled for 4 weeks.* 

I have not done the water change yet, but wanted to read this first. So why did I have such great levels before, and then after sucking most of the substrate it got worse? Like I said before I was afraid of messing with the levels before and now I know why. 

Basically the same fish for the past 7 yrs, and 3 yrs, with no issues. Now I have all these issues to contend with just because I vacuumed? Seems insane. I can only assume my beneficial bacteria is no longer there, with this rise. 

The water is still cloudy, and I did add bacteria I had in a bottle (whether it works or not) and ammonia detoxifier. I know many have views on these, and sure they caused the water to cloud. 

I have had more fish in the tank than this with no issues. The goldfish did not grow as large, but lived just as long. (and yes I know why) So it must not be too bad. Not the best by your standards but they lived without disease, and long. Paquito is 3 inches long, Painter is 4 inches, not as big as they should be, but big enough for the tank size. I will get larger tank if they grow larger.

Going to change 40% of water again and see if this helps, or makes it worse. My water is city water, and may just do more harm than good at this point.

Edit: Just did the water change, will test tomorrow and post results. I have a feeling my ammonia test kit is faulty. Ordering new master kit online tonight.


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

Got Master kit today, and did a test here are the results...feedback welcome.

*Ph: 6.0 (very pale)
Ammonia: 1.0 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20 ppm*

It's hard to keep my water at a steady ph, even in our pool. I am more concerned about ammonia and nitrites. *I did a 25 percent water change/vac today* after the test. The water is clear, the filter is establishing, and the fish are very lively. Anything I can do to improve?


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

So apparently research on my own has helped some what. Considering that lower ph means more ammonium present than toxic ammonia and that established tanks always have nitrite at 0...also have some old tank syndrome to deal with and make water changes to level it out slowly. 

And that NH3/NH4 kits only measure total ammonia including the less toxic form and more toxic form, I gather my ammonia is the less toxic form considering my fish are alive, and not suffering. Getting a NH3 only test kit soon, and doing my water changes slowly. 

Higher the ph and alkaline the water the more (in theory) presence of free ammonia in the water. And since my ph in the tap is low to start with, I won't be increasing it too much. 

Monitoring everything, and researching on my own.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry I missed your other posts. 

Could be 'Old tank syndrome' but there are a couple of things I'm still not convinced about. Don't count out the possibility that your tank is overstocked and the filter might just not be able to cope with the bioload.

What is the pH of water out of your tap?
What was the lowest pH reading you saw in your tank? 
How high did nitrates get?



> I gather my ammonia is the less toxic form considering my fish are alive, and not suffering.


Ammonia of 1.0 is usually not enough to kill fish. Goldfish are very tolerant of ammonia so ammonia of 1.0 during a short period of time wouldn't usually do much harm. Long term it is still bad for them. The problem is we cant generally tell if a fish is suffering or not until it is showing more severe symptoms.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

With a bottomed out ph like that my guess is you have very soft water with a very low kh. Your kh is your water's buffering ability to maintain a steady ph.

It would be good to know what ph is coming out of the tap and then tested again after it has sat out for 24hrs, just to know how it changes and what value it settles on.

For a very quick remedy to bring ph up a tad and boost kh, I would add some baking soda. Google adding baking soda to your tank and there are formulas on the net that will tell you what it will do for ph/kh. Otherwise, you could add 1/4tsp, wait a while and test, add again and test until you get where you want it. Long term wise, I'd look into crushed coral in the bottom of your tank. It will do the same thing as the baking soda but is more long term and doesn't have to be added after every water change.


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## Laurencia7 (May 19, 2012)

Thanks, no we have very hard water. Considering the tests combine the ammonia as total I am not sure. Going to keep water changes, and extending the filter intake to the reach the bottom (have a tall tank). I have ph regulator but right now I am more concerned with the ammonia. I will look into coral. The ammonia readings are high, and have been even after several water changes. I observe them 5 times or more a day and watch for any fin rot, or tiredness, rapid breathing, purple gills and nothing has happened so far. I am vacuuming regularly, and changing water. I also ordered some new media, but not going to overdue or change too much. Our ph in the tap is 6.0 to start with. Very hard water, we have problems with calcium build up, and the niTrates were in the 20ppm range.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Laurencia7 said:


> Thanks, no we have very hard water... Our ph in the tap is 6.0 to start with. Very hard water, we have problems with calcium build up, and the niTrates were in the 20ppm range.


6.0 is a low pH that is is kind of unusual for hard water. Like jrman says leave a glass of tap water to sit for 24 hrs and then test it, sometimes the pH reading changes when the water gasses out. Are you using a water softener on the tap?


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