# Cottonmouth?



## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Damn.

One of the Bloodfin Tetras I recently added had an obvious issue that I can best destined as the tip of his face was missing.

I did a quick Google search which led me right to this forum. A poster a couple years ago had a similar issue with Bloodfin Tetras. The condensed was Cottonmouth Disease. 

Googled that and there was all kinds of advice on treating. I went and got API Triple Sulfa as it seemed to be the most recommended. And it cures a wide range of diseases in case I misdiagnosed. 

Took all the Bloodfin Tetras out of the tank to lower the risk of a massive outbreak. Medicine said to remove filters and carbon, which I don't use anyway. I placed my filters in the tank so I don't lose all the beneficial bacteria in them. 

I did half the recommended dose of Triple Sulfa because I read that us best if you have Cories because they are sensitive to the medication... I have 12 Cories.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

I'm frazzled.


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## Cool Cichlid (Mar 12, 2013)

CAM,

I have personally found Bloodfin Tetras to be sensitive following any sort of move. The treatment of Triple Sulfa you described should be effective but I would have added a water change of 25%-35%. Many times I have seen a water change & fresh carbon alone will do the trick for fungal infections if the fish are still pretty strong. By changing the water, you reduce the level of stress for your fish. This enables their immune system to perk back up and knock out diseases more effectively. Add medicine after a water change (minus the carbon of course) and you'll give that fungus double trouble. Just be sure to make a water change and add fresh carbon at the completion of your meds and you should be fine. A good alternative to carbon in times like this is Purigen by Seachem. Good Luck!!!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks for the reply!

The Bloodfins were just added to the tank 5 days ago so you are probably right about them.

I had just done a 50% water change Wednesday night. Hope that will help the medicine be more effective.

Directions on the meds said dose, dose again in 24 hours, water change of 35% after another 24 hours, then repeat process.

I have Purigen in one of my filters and left it in ad I understand it won't remove the medicine like carbon.

I'm a bit worried also about the directions to remove filter cartriged during the medication process. Keeping an eye out for ammonia and nitrite spikes.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Watch your waters parameters as regardless of what the product claims , most antibiotics damage/wipe out your filter bacteria.If the TS doesn't work it can be used with rid ich also or try marycin/maracyn2 as both of those meds are listed also.The bacteria in cotton mouth(columnaris) does not like temps under 75 but does do well in water 76 and up so possibly lower tank temp in QT and your display(in the display just to lower chances of it showing up on others).It is a common disease to arrive with new fish as shipping stress and poor nutrition(besides bad water ) are often some of the causes.It can kill in 24 hours.
Good luck ,sorry.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks, Tom.

Run my tanks at 75°. Just lowered the thermostats a bit.

Decided to medicate my 20 gallon tank too in case I transferred any bad bacteria during feedings as I use the same cup for both when feedind shrimp and bloodworms. Not to mention the same python... not sure how long those nasty bacteria can survive out of water.

Thanks..... any sign of another sick fish and i'll add in other meds.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

the columnaris often leads to secondary infections(in fish already weakened).Ich is most noted.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

OK.... I'll get the ich meds today too.

You agree with doing half the dosage of meds with Cories in the tank?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Actually I agree that 1/2(or less than full)is always how to start out with any sensative or drastically weakened(very ill appearing) fish.BUT if in 24 hours you notice no discomfort or signs of irratation in fiash you should do your best to get up to full strength.I even (because of experience )know if I can go a little stronger than recommened.In oder for any med to do its job effectvely it needs to be applied in the strength(or greater) tat the directions say.
The rid ich is good stuff as it has a combo of malechalite green and formulin(formaldehyde{which is not freindly to pest or weakened fish}).I'm not positive it is necessary to use the rid ich yet ,as you seem to have noticed this disease early which always gives you the best chance of defeating it easier and quicker.
I will say I always have rid ich in the house and a few other meds so if/when I notice something I am able treat right away.Early detection and proper meds are the key to killing the killers.I treat if I even suspect(if I see one spot on any fish in my 180 that I believe to be a disease) I dose then.
I have seen what appeared to be ich in my 180 several times over the last 3 years(and treated immediately and for days),but never noticed it "bloom or spread" to others in the tank.
I think that you will probably also work this out as you noticed quickly and took immediate action(truely the key to treating any disease).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Here's a link to a thread started by Navigator Black.Gary was one of the most intelligent and informative members I ever communicated with.It's a shame he is still not here,he alway had insight that many would have never thought of.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/point-view-39965.html?highlight=first+aid+kit
When you're bored you should search Navigator Black and read ANYTHING he ever added to this forum,I learned alot from him.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks again, Tom. 

I'm not so sure I caught this early, given the condition I found that Bloodfin Tetra in when I got home last night. It was pretty gross, how much of his mouth was gone. 

I've been doing more internet reading today and the more I read, the more confused I get about the possible diseases/parasites that might have caused this and the meds that you can use to get rid of the many possible problems. 

None of my other fish seem any less healthy than they were before I added the Bloodfins on Saturday. But I'm going to keep a close eye out, for sure. 

I'm going to continue with the Triple Sulfa for the 4-doses they recommend, going to full strength on the last two. 

I'm also going to start using Rid Ich today, just to be safe. 

And, of course, I'm going to start stocking some meds and stop thinkng that it's impossible to get diseases in my tanks even though I change tons of water out weekly and vacuum the gravel on and clean filters on schedule. 

You think I need to also start using the Maracyn and Maracyn2 now, just to be safe ?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I had some similar issues w/ a few my cichlids. My solution has been to feed them cichlids pellets soaked in a few drops of VitaChem. That helps boost the immune system + stimulate appetite. Check it out! 

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm not so sure that I would mix meds,but if the triple sulfa does not eradicate the columnaris then maracyn/maracyn 2 are good meds,but they to are just antibiotics so look at active ingredients and possibly a simpler version exist.
We all eventually get some form of disease as guessing what stresses fish or the conditions that they were kept in prior to arriving in our home is always unknown.It's seems safest to assume that most fish are not kept in good conditions before we get them,and although they look healthy that can not be considered to be always accurate.There are also just certain fish that through mass production,poor rearing and conditions that none of us can even imagine are basically doomed to have some issues.
Keeping meds on hand is always good ,but most antibiotics have expiration dates that don't make them advantageous to keep on hand.
I don't consider salt a med (that will cure anything),but it also is good to have and use in cerain situations.If fish are laboring to breath then salt is of great help with osmoregulation.
There are also foods that have meds in them and often with some tough to fight diseases ingesting the medication is more effective than treating the water column(internal parasites in particular).
I know some frown on this but if a fish is in terrible condition or an individual out of a group who is the only one infected I will euthanise to reduce chances of it re-occuring and spreading to other normally resistant(healthy ) fish.Ice cubes in a container of water allowed to chill for a couple of minutes is a quick end for them(5-10 seconds).


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I've read about using that and the garlic stuff in some websites I've found. 

Vitachem is a liquid? Can you also soak flakes in it ? How often do you use it ?

Sorry, all that is probably on the label.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah, I euthanized two of the bloodfins last night and hated doing it. :-( One of them was the one that was obviously nearing death and the other had signs of the disease. I decided then to take the other three back to the store and told them the situation, they can decide what to do with them. 

I went to the Petsmart last night and looked for food with an antibiotic (I think what I found via research was oxytetracyclin, or something like that) but couldn't find any. Ugh... wish I had at least one LFS in town other than Petsmart and Petco. 

Great advice, as always, appreciate it !


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Zekes suggestion is a good one.Besides poor water quality(I don't think that is your issue) improper nutrition is listed as a cause of columnaris.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Sorry about your Tetras! That sucks.

Yeah VitaChem us a liquid. Is a multivitamin supplement, has vitamin C + garlic other good stuff to boost the immune system. Here's what I do:

(1) fill small spoon (I use a 1/2 tsp measuring spoon and fill it like halfway) with flakes/pellets/whatever
(2) Shake the vitachem bottle.
(3) Apply a few drops (like 3-6 drops to the flakes/pellets. Don't think exact quantity really matters much)
(4) wait a minute or two for the food to absorb it.
(5) Feed! 

This helped clear up the infection on my firemouth's and salvini's mouths in a few days...Seems to work nicely. Wish I had known about it when my Boesemani rainbows started dying....

I think Vitachem can be also applied to the tank water but I feel that's a waste of money unless your water volume is very small. Not cost effective for bigger tanks.

Heck, I use it daily....sometimes bi-daily even though instructions say just do daily. Even when the fish are healthy. Don't think it hurts to supplement all/most of the time. 

-Zeke



CAM said:


> I've read about using that and the garlic stuff in some websites I've found.
> 
> Vitachem is a liquid? Can you also soak flakes in it ? How often do you use it ?
> 
> Sorry, all that is probably on the label.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Been using the Spirulina 20 from Zoo Med for a few weeks now as their primary food. Give them brine shrimp or mysis fish once a week and frozen bloodworms once a week. I feed the Cories shrimp pellets nearly every day. Feed them algea wafers at least once a week. 

I've tried peas, only the Cories will nibble at them. Nobody liked romaine lettuse or cucumber. And they only took tiny nibbles of zucchini. 

I'll get some of the stuff Zeke mentioned, for sure.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks, Zeke. You use it every day ? Routinely, or only when you think they're sick ?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I do it daily/bi-daily now, regardless of whether the fish are sick. At only 4-6 drops per meal, my container's gonna last a very long time 

Of course, my fish are constantly kicking the crap out of each other...1 more week until I get the 180!!

-Zeke



CAM said:


> Thanks, Zeke. You use it every day ? Routinely, or only when you think they're sick ?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Have you tried baby bok choy (raw)? I wonder if your fish will nibble at that. Also my fish seem to eat frozen peas (with skin taken off). Maybe try chopping them up finely ?

My severums and plecos love the bok choy...other fish not so interested.

-Zeke



CAM said:


> Been using the Spirulina 20 from Zoo Med for a few weeks now as their primary food. Give them brine shrimp or mysis fish once a week and frozen bloodworms once a week. I feed the Cories shrimp pellets nearly every day. Feed them algea wafers at least once a week.
> 
> I've tried peas, only the Cories will nibble at them. Nobody liked romaine lettuse or cucumber. And they only took tiny nibbles of zucchini.
> 
> I'll get some of the stuff Zeke mentioned, for sure.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Have not tried that, but I will as I would really like to find a veggie they'll eat ! 

Maybe it's a matter of getting used to veggies being in the tank. But I left cucumber, zuchini and romaine lettuce in the tank for a few hours and it was barely paid any attention.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah it's pretty hit or miss.... You might try chopping things up fine and seeing if they eat it. Unlike my severums, they might be afraid of 1 huge leaf. 

-Zeke



CAM said:


> Have not tried that, but I will as I would really like to find a veggie they'll eat !
> 
> Maybe it's a matter of getting used to veggies being in the tank. But I left cucumber, zuchini and romaine lettuce in the tank for a few hours and it was barely paid any attention.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I'll try that with the romaine but might make it a bear to take it out of the tank if they don't eat it. 

How about cucumber and zuchine, you dice that up too? I put a blanched wedge of them in there, thinking they would munch on it.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

If i did chop it up, i'd just put in a tiny bit at a time to test their interest. but yeah could be a pain to clean up. I usually just put in big leaves or wedges clipped to the side of the tank and let my fish bite at it... but again that's only really the severums + plecos. the firemouths aren't very interested. the honduran red points + salvini do peck at this food occasionally but they aren't generally very interested.

I didn't have much luck with zucchini + cucumber. My fish kind of nibble at it a little bit but my cichlids aren't very interested. the only ones who go crazy over it are the bristlenose plecos...

Blanching the cucumbers / zucchini seems to help make it more attractive though -- but only for my plecos + sometimes the severums 



-Zeke



CAM said:


> I'll try that with the romaine but might make it a bear to take it out of the tank if they don't eat it.
> 
> How about cucumber and zuchine, you dice that up too? I put a blanched wedge of them in there, thinking they would munch on it.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Good info, thanks!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I was the one who had cottonmouth hit my bloodfins a few years ago. Lost all ten bloodfins, and the ensuing medicine regimen killed two of my emerald dwarf rasboras, but saved the rest of the ~10 inhabitants.

Good luck!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks now and thanks for your old thread.... helped point me in the right direction.

Appears bloodfins are particularly succeptible. Were yours fairly new to your tank?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

CAM said:


> Yeah, I euthanized two of the bloodfins last night and hated doing it. :-( One of them was the one that was obviously nearing death and the other had signs of the disease. I decided then to take the other three back to the store and told them the situation, they can decide what to do with them.
> 
> I went to the Petsmart last night and looked for food with an antibiotic (I think what I found via research was oxytetracyclin, or something like that) but couldn't find any. Ugh... wish I had at least one LFS in town other than Petsmart and Petco.
> 
> Great advice, as always, appreciate it !


So you no longer have any of the bloodfins?
I know the selection may not allow, but if you're in the market for "replacements" I highly recommend rummy nose.Petsmartmay not have them though.Also they are not likely to come with disease that is not appearent,but a % of loss can be expcted as they are sensative to changes(they just die instead of getting sick{less risk to the rest of community),
They also play dead in the bag as a defese mechanism if you should find and decide to get any.
One thing I should have mentioned long ago,although you seemed to avoid as an issue is the roseline can literally be chased right into a "heart attack" and die almost immediately.I had this happen once as the boy at the LFS took like over 15 minutes to catch me 3(they wre in a 75g) ,and when I got home they were all dead.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Nope... didn't keep any of the bloodfins and I'm very disappointed because their colors made a nice contrast with all the other colors in my tank and they were a nice, calm addition to my community. Bummed. But don't want to risk getting more of them. 

I think I'm just going to get a few more Cherry Barbs and increase that school up to 9, or so, hoping that will make the ones I have be more active. They currently spend a lot of time in my plants. Except for one, rather large male I got a month ago. That guy might be part of the reason the Bloodfins developed illness. He likes to chase all my other fish around... Cories, Roselines, Danios, Bloodfins... he doesn't care, he just wants to chase. I'm thinking about removing him from the tank as well. 

Then I still want to add a few more Roseline Sharks. 

And then I'll be done. I think that will make for a nice, calm tank.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Update and question:

Both tanks tested at 0/0/10 tonight.

No signs of illness on any of the fish in either tank. All of them ate well and are active. The Cories show no sign of distress from the Triple Sulfa.

Did a 35% water change in the big tank and did a full dose of Triple Sulfa.

Now the question. Read a couple of websites that say treat with this medication every other day and be sure to treat for 10 days. The package says treat every 24 hours for 4 days. I tend to trust API because they make the stuff but anyone believe the 10 day process is better?


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## Cool Cichlid (Mar 12, 2013)

CAM said:


> Update and question:
> 
> Both tanks tested at 0/0/10 tonight.
> 
> ...


I do not have personal experience with the 10 day but treating your tank every other day would expose your fish, and the fungus, to lower doses of medication for an extended amount of time. This could be beneficial to more sensitive fish like your cory cats. As you noted API does make the stuff which means they should know what they are doing when recommending every 24 hours for 4 days. Either way, observing your fish for signs of stress and monitoring aquarium parameters are key at this point. It sounds like your fish are responding well to your preventive care. Your keen eye and swift action should prove successful in preventing any further losses.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks very much for the reply, CC.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would stick with as much of full dose as possible,a it is noted throughout history that smaller doses of antbiotics usaully only help to create a "resistant" strain of disease.
I also read a couple of reveiws on API site that said specifically that the users cories did well with med.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

That's my plan. Half dosed the first day. Second day I full dosed and will full dose two more days. 

Have the water in both tanks now set at steady 72° and have been there since yesterday morning.

Sure appreciate everyone's help as I go thru this for the first time.

And I'm very soon going to be adding a third tank..... a quarentine tank!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Day 4. Not a good one.

Lost a Cory from the 20 gallon tank. Couldn't find him last night when I went to bed. Nor this morning. Doing the water change this morning prior to medicating, took all the plants out and found more poor little friend. :-( he had been in the tank over a month. Thinkink he couldn't tolerate the medication. I had been wondering, and still am, if the Cories and male Guppies are good tank mates because the Guppies eat their flake food then go right to the shrimp pellets before the Cories eat. Not sure if the Cories are finding enough food.

Second thing that has me concerned this morning.... A couple of my Roselines have lost a lot of their red coloring. Other three maybe slightly so. Is it a reaction to the meds? A reaction to the colder tank that is running 3-4 degrees leer that past few days? Of course, after what chapped to the Bloodfin, I also worry they might be showing early signs of the illness.


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## Tolak (Mar 10, 2013)

You have to understand that API is in this to make a profit, not to save the world from fish illnesses. If the triple sulfa they sell said to treat for 10-14 days, with a 50% water change daily & remed few people would buy the product. 

Antibiotics for humans run for 10-14 days, same with other animals, most notably dogs & cats. Most veterinary medications were originally designed for humans, many are still in use. I've had some long discussions with aquatic medication suppliers, many deal with fish farms & such so the person with the sick fish have a livelihood that depends on having healthy fish. 

As mentioned, for the triple sulfa, 50% water change daily & remed, for 10-14 days.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks but did someone say 10-14 days besides my comment I read on a couple of websites to use it every other day for 10 days? I may have missed it and can't find it now.

If I need to use it 10 days, I'm going to have a problem. Treating two tanks with a total of 95 gallons every day for for days... I've bought every packet of Triple Sulfa I could find in a 30 mile radius.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your cory.You seem to have the thoughts correct,it could be the med,or it could be that the guppies are hogging all the food.I agree with much of what Tolak said ,but you're not treating the disease now , as you got rid of sick fish,but are more on preventative treatment.If you see no issues then staying the four day course and stopping seems very reasonble.
On the roselines,you're pretty much on track with them also.Possibly even early a.m. colorlessness?I've seen mine change how bright they were, and change back for no reason(well none announced by them).I keep my tank temp up due to the discus,so it may be they are not hip to cooler temps,or much like I have done with the angels and discus , that cooler water is a signal to them(change of season,or breeding).I dont think they will breed,but they may desire to?
Good luck
Tom


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Always appreciate your reassurance, Tom.

I think I'll put the remaining Cories from the 20 into my 75 with the other dozen Cories. They will be much happier in there. Will wait a few days until everything has settled down a.d I'm not vacuuming and medicating every day. Then I'll just make the 20 purely a Male Guppy tank. Those guys sure don't seem to mind the medicine or cooler water. They get more beautiful by the day.

Yeah.... the more I thought about the Roselines, the more that made sense. But again, your thoughts are very reassuring and appreciated!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Last of the four doses of Triple Sulfa tonight in the 75, tomorrow morning for the 20.

Should I keep the temperature in the tanks at 72° for a while longer just to be safe? 

With my Riselines loosing some color I prefer not to but will if it means making sure any surviving bad bacteria don't start multiplying.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If you see no signs of illness(your fish are very healthy with the care you give them) then you could start getting temp back where you and fish like.Very often a healthy fish can live with the same illness that a stressed ,weak fish can not.Many think that a lot of disease are always present in tanks(ich is one of the big ones),but this is not true.They don't all need to be introduced to show up.Stress,poor conditions and poor nutrition are great contributors to a "mystery" disease showing up.Believe when I say they don't all come with new fish,sudden drop in temp to unsafe levels,poor water quality and crap food can just as easily"spawn" a disease in a established tank as the unhealthy newcomer.The care you have provided and the waterchanges(huge factor in my opinion) help your fish stay healthy,strong and resistant.
So if things look well(like before the bloodfins) then you're probably all good.I'm not quite as familiar with the life cycle of columnaris,but most disease don't have a "dormency" period and columnaris usually kills quickly.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Sounds good, Tom. Yeah, they all seem healthy and active. I just put an algea wafer in there and I have almost every fish in the tank trying to get at the two pieces. If they were sick, I don't think they'd be so hungry.

Thanks.... as always!


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## Tolak (Mar 10, 2013)

Fish Antibiotics & Chemicals Page 4

Good price on meds, free help line, just a long distance call. Two tanks with a total of 95 gallons is as good a reason to have a med tank around as any I've ever heard. 

Even though they appear better, I wouldn't cut the treatment shorter than 10 days, you may get lucky though, you never know. I realize info found online can be overwhelming at times, hope I'm not adding to the confusion by posting a link to an article concerning columnaris written by a doctor; Columnaris Disease


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks very much. I will read that link and it may even be one I already read since I have read so much.

You do realize none of my current fish had the disease. Two of my five new Bloodfins had it, one severe and one minor, and I removed all five from the tank.

Going to go tomorrow to get a 10 gallon quarantine/hospital tank. Been reading up on how to best set one up.


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## Tolak (Mar 10, 2013)

Craig's list is a good place to find tank bargains, as well as local club sites. Anything else buy online, heater, filter & such if not locally available used, servicable, and cheap. 

Not knowing what you're running as far as make & model of filter I can't comment on which to get, as you could easily clone a 10 gallon. With large daily water changes this isn't absolutely needed, but won't hurt.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I run two HOB filters on each tank. A pair if Top Fin 75s on the larger tank and a pair of Marineland Penguin 150 Biowheels on the 20 gallon. Tons of filtration.

I intend to use one of the Biowheel filters on the quarantine tank when it's in use. That way I will have a cycled filter on it.


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## Tolak (Mar 10, 2013)

Awesome, one less thing to buy. If there's a cheap way to do something in this hobby I'll figure it out, eventually. Spare filters always pay for themselves.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Columnaris (Flexibacteria) in Aquarium Fish; Fungus, Saprolegnia; Treatment, Prevention
Interesting link.I would after reading this wonder if you know what your hardness is,as that has as much an effect on survival of columnaris as the temp. does.
This link also seems to dispell some information we may have all read and thought to be correct.
I found this searching"life cycle of columnaris in tropical fish"
There was also another very scientific report above this link
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1128&context=usfwspubs
Sorry for more reading and you probably don't need all this info,but if your interested.
I also gathered this disease is transfered fish to fish although it can live in the water,that's not always how it is spread.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I tested my water hardness about a month ago, Tom. I forgot the conversion chart results and don't have the chart with me now but remember the first test, KH took three drops and the GH took 7 drops, using the API liquid tests.

Reading that info, do you think I need to rethink my treatment plan?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

That would be considered low and a very good thing as the columnaris life span is greatly shorter in soft water compared to hard water.
I learned a little today!Thanks


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Whew.... good news!

Going to stick to my plan. Getting ready to do a 40-50 water change and then last dose of Triple Sulfa. 

THANKS!


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