# Did API's Proper pH kill my Kuhli Loach?



## GiSWiG (Oct 1, 2012)

Tuesday I put my new Kuhli Loaches in my 10gal tank. They are just there temporarily untill the big tank is setup. I added 3 to the tank that already has two corys, a molly and a beta. 

I used my API master test kit and found my water was high in pH, 7.6 about the max on the card. Ammonia and nitrites were 0 and nitrates was about 40ppm. So last night (Thursday) I got some API Proper pH 7.0 and added only a third scoop to start; instructions say to use 1 scoop per 10Gal. The water turned cloudy. Later observing the fish, I noticed that the loaches gills were moving quickly, but I didn't see how fast they were when I put them in. Several hours later the water was still cloudy.

This morning one of the loaches was dead. The water is still cloudy. I did a pH test and ammonia. The pH was still at the max range and the ammonia was still 0. I did not have enough time but I'll do a high pH test tonight. I put carbon in the filter to help remove the cloudiness.

So should this Proper pH stuff bad or should I use pH Down or should I not use it? My water was already dechlorinated and Proper pH has a dechlorinator in it. Could that be a problem?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The only way to know for sure is to not use ph buffer and see if loaches live.I believe all buffers are trouble and /or cause trouble.To lower ph use distilled or RO water to cut your tap.This will avoid the addition of chemicals and may even remove some of the total dissolved solids(TDS) which often accompany high ph(my ph is 7.6 woth 0 gh and 3 kh).I do not buffer and am no longer even "cutting" with RO as to keep my kh up(3 is not really up).


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## jshiloh13 (Dec 12, 2010)

Yea I don't use a buffer either and my ph is around 7.6 also. And I haven't had any trouble with it.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

When you get home I would advise you to do a large water change


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

No "thanks" button so;THANKS SUSANKAT!x2 SINCE BUTTON RETURNED


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## GiSWiG (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok. So how's this work...

Return the Proper pH (if they let me) 
Get the API dechlorinator/heavy metal remover
large water change, probably 2gal distilled/4gal tap ratio

?

Thoes loaches are so cool. Two were buddies, about the same size and color. The other one was bigger and lighter color. I hate to say it, but I hope the big one died so one of the other two didn't lose their buddy. I didn't notice when I removed it from the tank.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

mix distilled or ro with measured volume(2g tap&1g dist/ro {this is an example of where to start}) and test ph of mix to see results.In a short time and 2-3 test(changing ratio of mix) you can make the ph exactly what you want.Note the mix when your happy and good to go for future.On a side note 7.6 is not super high and if properly acclimated "most" fish would be fine(very general I know ,but generally true).


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah, those pH altering products are downright dangerous for tanks. They're phosphate buffers, which #1 are only temporary fixes and #2 can screw up your tank's chemistry with elevated levels of phosphates. As stated, distilled water will lower pH, and you can also use things like peat moss in a filter bag in your filter to naturally lower pH, also coincidentally for much less expense than the pH altering products you buy at your local pet store.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Gizmo is right and just to add in case unknowing happen to read;Phosphates are the #1 reason for nusciance algae in aquaria,and few who are unaware even test for them.NOTHING BUT TROUBLE.


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## GiSWiG (Oct 1, 2012)

I lost another one, the big one this time. Appears that the Proper pH didn't do it directly. Maybe it was too much change in pH for the Kuhli to take. I did a partial water change last night and found the dead kuhli this morning. Tested my pH from tap and it is around 7.8 after doing the high pH test. So is it possible that they cannot withstand 7.8 pH?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

A pH is 7.6 to 7.8 is absolutely fine for loaches. It is no problem at all. The loaches are in their quarantine phase if you just got them - fish fresh from the store are always in danger of sudden and mysterious death.

I really don't understand why anyone would use buffers on a good mid-range pH like that - there is bad advice flying around. Most of North America has water running in that range.
pH is also largely meaningless. We measure it because it is easy to measure, but knowing your pH is not knowing your water. If you are concerned, you must test the GH, Dh and TDS. That is what matters for most fish. If you have a higher pH, then you probably have a higher mineral content in your water. Most fish can do fine in a higher mineral content than nature has adapted them to, but they suffer if the mineral content is too low for them. Mollies and swordtails, from hard water, are the classic fish for that.

For many years, I bred rainforest cichlids from a pH of around 5. I used RO to deal with the mineral issue, and treated the water with peat moss or oak leaves to create acidity. I never used phosphoric acids or commercial pH adjusters because they were temporary, and if the pH bounces, it does stress the fish. In a fish tank, you have to aim for stability. Rapid changes are generally a bad idea.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

sorry to hear .I just read a little on your kulhis;They prefer softer (in low range ph{6-7}) water.Also say need well established tank.Possibly nitrate near 40 is high for them(thats close if not max for most fish{deadly even if fish are not adjusted to higher level}).To "cut " water I would try 1 gallon of distilled/ro to your 10g tank.If this yields ph lower than 7.4 I would think that could be safe,also if that is acceptable(to fish) 1 g of dist/ro would go long way in water changes(1/2 g for 5g change keeps water consitent).TRy this out to get water where you want before replacing your loaches.On another note your mollie prefers water around where your at so going down to 7 may cause issue for him(disease due to stress).Also just curious if mollie picked on loach?Mollies can be tough(not mean, just bigger and "active".)Your hardness seemed fine and that will go lower when you cut water. A water change to lower nitrate would be advised(5g wc would yeild 20 nitrates{which would be better})try 1 g of distilled/ro mixed with 4g tap(dechlorinated) and test a couple hours after.Hope this helps.


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## jshiloh13 (Dec 12, 2010)

I dont really see any reason for adding distilled water, unless there is another reason besides lowering the ph. I have 4 black kuhli loaches in my tank with a ph around 7.6 and don't have a problem.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What I see here is possibly not knowing what the true ph really is. Anyone who uses a low range test kit and the reading is 7.6, you'll never know if it is higher or not. The ph could be 8.2, but the low range kit will only read 7.6. It is the max it will ever show. You need a high range test kit to verify. Not that it matters really, but a data point nonetheless.

Ph altering agents can be used effectively as I think I have posted before, but it is not as simple as just throwing in your tank, despite what API may make you think. Your water has properties in it that brace against ph changes called buffers. You put the product in, ph changes, and then the water fights to take it back and results in a ph going up and down. Remove the water buffers and you can do what you want to the water and it won't fight against you.

Just curious....why did you try to change your ph? This is the main thing I don't understand in most of these cases.


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## jshiloh13 (Dec 12, 2010)

I think most people change there ph cause the testers show a "ideal" range that it says your ph should be in, and people just figure that's where they should try to get it too. That's what I did when I first started, I put ph balancer in every water change and never thought twice.

That was until I did some research and found out from people with more experience that it's dangerous to change the ph with a buffer.


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## GiSWiG (Oct 1, 2012)

jshiloh13 said:


> I think most people change there ph cause the testers show a "ideal" range that it says your ph should be in, and people just figure that's where they should try to get it too. That's what I did when I first started, I put ph balancer in every water change and never thought twice.
> 
> That was until I did some research and found out from people with more experience that it's dangerous to change the ph with a buffer.


That's the reason and I am a beginner. Should I worry about pH that much then? I still have the last Kuhli loach and he seems fine in the 7.6 - 7.8 pH. I had my doubts about the Proper pH. Is the pH Up/Down bad to use too? Is it a buffer too?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

all chemical buffers are to be questioned.As the need for them.Use your water as you recieve it.That way when/if the need arises to make massive water change you won't be messing with the water chemistry.Your remaining loach should be good indicator that your water is acceptable as it is.When purchasing new fish drip acclimate them(slowly) so they can adjust to your tanks conditions.


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