# still having problem with white spots on black moor



## SGrandi (Mar 9, 2012)

I have posted a couple of times on this. I've followed all advice and still am having white spots on my moor. I change 1/4 of a 29 gallon tank about every week now. I did all my check for water quality and all are great. Ammonia 0, Nitrate just above 5., PH at 7.4, Nitrite 0. I used API chemistry set. Very adequate filtration. A couple of weeks ago I treated for flukes. Before that, when the spots first reappeared I used the Marcyn Plus biospheres. White spots still on tail and now one by it's eye. It's not ick from what I can tell. Yesterday in desperation I used Jungle tank buddies fungus clear. The kind that turns the water green. I don't want it to get so bad I lose my fish but somehow I can't get any results with all my efforts. My moor is about a year in the tank. Is active and seems healthy otherwise. Also yesterday I took out all decoration. I didn't have much anyway but thought they may harbor something. I am so stumped. Some place I read about carp pox. Do goldfish get this and is it treatable? Please help. Before I add another moor I want to get this problem under control. *c/p*


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you have any pics? that could help. 

I wouldn't use any more meds for now if it was me. Meds can be quite hard on fish and if they are not helping they might just make things worse. 

Do the spots go away and come back in a new place or are the first ones still there? What do the spots look like, shape, size, are they sunken, raised, do they look fluffy, are there sales missing?


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## SGrandi (Mar 9, 2012)

Thank you so much snail for responding. I don't have any pics that show the white stuff. It's really hard to get one since it moves all the time. There is however a pic in my gallery of my fish and tank. I think I will do a water change today to get out the green fungus cure stuff. I took out all the decoration and thought maybe I could scoop out the gravel and really wash it before I put it back in. That's all in case there is anything harbored in the tank. The spots are primarily on one side. Started on tail in kind of a row on the 'deviders' of the fin. Now on the edges of the fin. The ones on the find are round, raised and more whitish. On the edges not round really. Just whitish. Also now on the edge of the eye is a round one. They are larger than a pinhead by double at least. This time they came on after a water change and have not gone away in the last 3 weeks. I then decided I would treat for flukes. I had not done that before. The spots didn't go away but the fish seems just normal in it's activity. Then when the spot on it's eye emerged I panicked and added the Fungus cure. I'd had it and had never used it so I thought I'd give it a try. In the past few months I had used Marcyn Plus and I'm not sure it did anything but the spots did diminish a few months ago only to return this last month. In my tank observation yesterday I noticed some white stuff was on the part of my filter that's in the water. As soon as I took it out to rinse it off it wasn't white anymore but I cleaned that piece quite well in hot water as well as the whole water holding and filter holding area of my Marine 200 filter. Inserted 2 new charcoal filters. The other two were only about a month old. Some site said I need to feed more varied food. I have been feeding mostly these pellets from "Goldfish Connection" which sound to be quite good quality food. I just don't want to ignore the problem and lose my fish. I really like it. I'd had two fish before, an oranda and ryukin that both died last year. The ryukin always had problems and never grew very much. The oranda seemed to be doing well and then just took a nosedive and died. That's when the fellow at "Goldfish Connection" said it could have been flukes. So, the deal is, everyone keeps say it's water quality but there is not other thing I can imagine to do. As stated in my last post my numbers are good. It's one fish in a 29 gallon tank and I'm now changing water 1/4 about weekly. What else could be done?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you but I was thinking it over trying to come up with an answer. To be honest without a picture it's really hard to say anything specific but I'll break down some of the things you have said and see if it helps.



SGrandi said:


> I took out all the decoration and thought maybe I could scoop out the gravel and really wash it before I put it back in. That's all in case there is anything harbored in the tank.


I wouldn't overdo cleaning stuff in the tank because things like the gravel have a lot of good bacteria in them and over cleaning can upset the balance of the tank. Some parasites and diseases are found in the water gravel etc but you are unlikely to get rid of them completely without breaking down the whole tank. For example some say the only way to get rid of the dreaded MB (fish TB) is by breaking down the whole tank and sterilizing everything but then it would still be on your fish, so unless you destroyed the fish you just end up back where you started. I would just keep up with regular good habits of water changes and hoovering the gravel.



> The spots are primarily on one side. Started on tail in kind of a row on the 'deviders' of the fin. Now on the edges of the fin. The ones on the find are round, raised and more whitish. On the edges not round really. Just whitish. Also now on the edge of the eye is a round one. They are larger than a pinhead by double at least.


It does sound kind of like carp pox, which I believe goldfish can get. They say the lumps look waxy. If it is pox the fishes immune system should get the better of it. Warmer water and a good diet can help.



> Then when the spot on it's eye emerged I panicked and added the Fungus cure.


It doesn't sound like fungus to me. Fungus tends to look fluffy like cotton wool. My favourite way to treat fungus is with good water quality and a little salt.



> In the past few months I had used Marcyn Plus and I'm not sure it did anything but the spots did diminish a few months ago only to return this last month.


Ich is the first thought when anyone says white spots but that doesn't sound like ich which forms small blisters under the skin that then drop completely off and usually come back in greater numbers but in new places.



> In my tank observation yesterday I noticed some white stuff was on the part of my filter that's in the water. As soon as I took it out to rinse it off it wasn't white anymore but I cleaned that piece quite well in hot water as well as the whole water holding and filter holding area of my Marine 200 filter.


 Most things you see growing in your tank are harmless, feel free to clean it off but don't worry too much. Something white you see growing in the tank is unlikely to be the same white thing that is growing on your fish.



> Some site said I need to feed more varied food. I have been feeding mostly these pellets from "Goldfish Connection" which sound to be quite good quality food.


Many fish problems can indicate a poor immune system, immune system problems can be caused by a lack of a particular vitamin or mineral in the fishes diet. It is usually impossible to work exactly what is lacking but feeding a balanced, varied diet can usually insure the fish is getting all they need. A good quality dry food should provide a good general balance (some people choose to rotate food brands). Feeding fresh or frozen foods from time to time might help to provide extra vitamins etc that the dry food could lack. Goldfish will enjoy fresh veg in their diets. Don't overdo it as these foods tend to be messy. You could give it in very small amounts or once or twice a week instead of the dry food.



> I'd had two fish before, an oranda and ryukin that both died last year. The ryukin always had problems and never grew very much. The oranda seemed to be doing well and then just took a nosedive and died.


That was quite a long time ago chances are the problem this fish has has nothing to do with those deaths. It does sound like the ryukin just wasn't a strong fish. If 3 fish were in the 29 gallon it was pushing the stocking limit so is possible you were having low level ammonia/nitrite issues which will compound any other problems/weaknesses.
Did those fish have any of the same symptoms as the fish you have now? 
Did the two fish die close together? 
How long had the tank been set up for when the fish died?
How big were the fish? 
Were you testing water quality at the time? 
Sorry for all the questions, just looking for clues.



> So, the deal is, everyone keeps say it's water quality but there is not other thing I can imagine to do. As stated in my last post my numbers are good. It's one fish in a 29 gallon tank and I'm now changing water 1/4 about weekly. What else could be done?


The first thought with goldfish is always water quality issues because they are such messy fish and need so much space. People most often get into goldfish without realizing what they require. So when you get a thousand questions and suggestions about water quality try not to take it personally . You have a good water change schedule and your numbers are good. One blackmoor in a 29 gallon is not heavily stocked. I think you are doing everything right.


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## SGrandi (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks so much snail for such a comprehensive reply. I have felt so frustrated in trying to work with my fish and not having a mentor here to help. I have come to love fancy goldfish and am more than willing to care properly for them. It's just figuring out how to keep them healthy. It feel so powerless when they have problems and I can't just take them to my vet and say "help me with this". From all that has gone on I do however feel like I'm learning a great deal.
Some answers: The other two fish died about a year apart from each other. The weak ryukin first. Then I added the moor. The oranda died about 8 months ago. So I've only had the moor for these last few months and wanting to get things right before I add another fish which I think will be a moor because I read that since they are rather visually impaired I should have another visually impaired fish so it doesn't get all the food from the moor. 
The ryukin had been in the tank about 2 years before it died. The oranda maybe 3 years. The moor now only about a year. They were not big fish. They were small when I purchased them but no where near the size they can get. I would say the moor has grown the most for me and is about maybe 2 or 3 inches in the body. It's picture is posted in my picture gallery. 
Early on in my setting up the tank - within the first year, I did have problems with fin rot. And after treating for it and becoming better with more frequent changes, I never had that problem again. Their fins grew back completely. The ryukin seemed to alway have a swim bladder issue or constipation but did better when I was feeding them frozen shrimp with spiralina. Also a pea from time to time. My moor has not been good at eating any "veggies" though. Maybe a pea but never anything like lettuce, spinach.
I will be at my office - where the tank is - today and will do my water change. I'll follow your suggestion about not "over' cleaning. Then I'll try to vary it's food a bit more - thing is it's a bit hard to feed because it doesn't really see the food that well. I could always get a pellet in it almost by had feeding. I'll also try to get more pics of my moor. They are just difficult for that. 
One more question. I tend to get a more brown looking algae rather than much green. Is that a sign of a problem?
Thanks so much again.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I know how frustrating working out what is wrong with a sick fish can be. If it makes you feel any better we have all been there. You are on the right track learning all you can about how to keep your fish healthy and it will help avoid and deal with many problems. Of course like with humans even the best doctor can't save all his patients so when it doesn't work out try not to let it get you down.

It seems quite likely that the problems you have had are unrelated to each other and can mostly be put down to bad luck or possibly inexperience.



> Early on in my setting up the tank - within the first year, I did have problems with fin rot. And after treating for it and becoming better with more frequent changes, I never had that problem again.


Fin rot is almost always a water quality issue. In the first weeks of a new tank the nitrogen cycle has to get started, until good bacteria builds up ammonia and nitrate spikes occur, this is tough on fish. After that 3 goldfish was quite a lot for your tank and without plenty of water changes water quality was probably an issue. It sounds like you got that all sorted though.



> The ryukin seemed to alway have a swim bladder issue or constipation but did better when I was feeding them frozen shrimp with spiralina. Also a pea from time to time.


Cycling and other water quality issues can cause permanent damage to a fishes health, making them sickly and short lived even after the problem is solved but goldfish are very hardy when it comes to water quality and I've seen them survive under much worse conditions than yours and he may have been through worse before he got to you. 

On the whole I think you just got the 'runt of the litter'. Fancy Goldfish have been overbred and the funny body shape comes at a cost, they can be prone to things like swim bladder problems. A fish with problems can sometimes live for quite a while but are unlikely to thrive and live to an old age. You did the best you could by upping water changes and feeding peas.



> My moor has not been good at eating any "veggies" though. Maybe a pea but never anything like lettuce, spinach.
> I'll try to vary it's food a bit more - thing is it's a bit hard to feed because it doesn't really see the food that well. I could always get a pellet in it almost by had feeding.


I can see how that is tricky. Maybe you could try hanging some type of clip in the tank with the veg on it. If he feels the need for it he will learn where it is. If he just doesn't like veg that much maybe he is getting what he needs from the pellets.



> One more question. I tend to get a more brown looking algae rather than much green. Is that a sign of a problem?


Some algae is normal, unless it seems out of control (which can indicate an imbalance or poor water quality) there is nothing to worry about. Brown algae is just a different type of algae, maybe diatoms. If it bothers you scrub it off, I usually just clean it from the front of the tank. I also have nerite snails love to eat the brown stuff


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Just for general reference these are probably some of the more common causes of white spots on goldfish:

Breeding stars- Natural markings that appear on the gill covers of mature males.
http://www.aquariumoddities.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/tubercles.jpg

ich- a parasite, treat with heat and salt treatment or commercial medication.
Understanding and Treating Ich or White Spot Aquarium Fish Paradise – Adelaide SA

Fungal infection- Usually the result of bad water quality, an injury or a secondary infection. Extra good water quality will usually give the fish a chance to heal on it's own.
Disease Profile - Fish Fungus - PondCare

Columnaris- looks similar to a fungal infection but is caused by a bacteria, often effects the mouth area. Fish Diease Columnaris | [email protected]


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## SGrandi (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks again snail. In looking at the links you sent, it appears a bit more like ick than any of the others but does not act like it. The spots have not changed in over a month and from the article you sent ( very good) it sounds like they drop off and that would indicate that I would not see them in the same places for a extended period of time. I had also treated for flukes a few weeks back and the directions did not say it treated ick specifically but did treat external and internal parasites. I think it was called Prazi. I'm tempted to treat for ick since it is the only thing I haven't treated for but in the last month I have already treated for flukes and fungus and think I might be pushing this little guy too much with meds as you suggested in an earlier post. I do use aquarium salt and add some with each water change. I have also used "good bacteria" that I bought from the "goldfish connection" site. Don't have the name right here. I condition the water I use for each change. Those are just some stream of conscience info I had forgotten to add before. If it does get worse I just don't know what more to do. I'm hoping that it is just the carp pox and will in time go away. Again, thank you so very much for your responses. They are and have been so well appreciated. I will post more pics if I can get some in the next couple of days.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Are the spots very white and defined looking like the pictures of ich? Could some of the original spots have gone away and come back in a different place without you realizing they were not the same spots? I know the ich life cycle is slower in cold water so it might take more days for the cysts to burst than what you read about for tropical fish, I would just keep an eye on it for now. If any of the cysts appear to suddenly drop off I'd think ich.

Do the spots look (fairly) round and even, or are they all lumpy? Lymphocystis is a virus that causes cauliflower like lumps.


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## SGrandi (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks snail. Sorry it's been awhile I must have missed when you last posted. No, the spots never change where they are. A straight row on the tail fin evenly spaced and always remain the same size. It's been at least a month they have been there. Nothing has done much to change them at all. There is a little bit on the edge of the fin just today and they all seemed a bit more pronounced or whiter I guess. They are only on one side of the fish, never on the other side. Also a spot by the eye. Not on it. Same size but again a bit brighter today. I'm keeping water clean and well filtered as I'd mentioned. I tried like heck to get a picture of them today but as soon as it sees the camera it swims all around and then just looks at me. I put it in a little basket in the top of the tank to see if I could see better an take a picture but it just wanted to get out and kept swimming. When I would gently fan out it's tail to see then the spots were not as "white" but still there. Odd?? I have decided to not keep "medicating" . I keep aquarium salt in the tank. I just add a bit with water changes. I'm inclined to think it's "carp pox" from some reading around. Sounds like there isn't much that can be done with it since it's viral. So the only really bad thing about it now is it doesn't look good on my fish. People ask what's wrong with it. The other thing is that I want to give it a friend and wonder if I should just go get another fish and chance it.

I uploaded 2 pics into my gallery. Not sure how to get it here. There are some notes under them. They are tagged white spots on moor.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry, I still can't tell much from the pic, the good news is if it is carp pox it will usually go into recession on it's own.


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