# Fishless Cycling ?'s



## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm in my fourth day of fishless cycling. I have a 20 gallon tank that I plan to have guppies in. My well water from the faucet has a ph of 7.4, a nitrite of 0ppm, and a nitrate of 0ppm. I have been dosing my tank with 4ml of 100% ammonia per day (based on the directions to get my ammonia levels to 4ppm to fit into the 3-5ppm range as advised) and noticed today that the ammonia level has dropped to about a 2ppm. I also checked the nitrite and it registered at 0.25ppm. According to the fishless cycling directions on here it said to half dose the ammonia every four days until bot the ammonia and nitrites drop to zero. The directions are confusing because one part says to half dose daily as soon as nitrites begin to show. But then it says when nitrites top out at 5ppm cut the dose of ammonia 50% and dose every other day. Any help would be appreciated, I included the directions I found on here by rtbob below.

I wanted to add some info to this process without taking away too much from the time spent into creating this thread. There have been numerous recent issues with the cycle stalling and seemingly taking longer than it really needs to. I have never used the steps mentioned below but have used a fishless cycle 3 times now and the result has always been fairly consistent. the only thing that hasn't been the same each time is how long it takes to complete....that will be different for every tank. Here is what I do once I have the ammonia and the tank has tested 0ppm ammonia:

1. Dose 1/2tsp, wait a minute or two and test. Keep doing this until 4ppm ammonia is attained. Remember this amount. DO NOT dose based on someone else's recommendation because not all ammonia bottle are the same and have varying concentrations of ammonia. It will take less to get to 4ppm with a higher concentration.

2. Stop testing for ammonia. It will drive you crazy if you don't. Just dose the ammonia daily and don't think about the ammonia level again. Dose about the same time every day.

3. On about the 5th day or so start daily testing for nitrites - can be done earlier if you desire. 

4. Once any trace of nitrites show, cut daily dose amount in half and now dose ammonia every 4 days.

5. Keep doing that until nitrites test 0ppm.

6. Once nitrites are 0ppm, then test ammonia again and make sure it has zeroed also. 

7. You can test the system if you choose. Dose some ammonia and test for ammonia the next day, along with nitrites, etc....until it all disappears again.

I just did a fishless cycle on a 20L to verify this method as it worked for me twice before and just wanted another test to be sure before I posted here. My tank completed the cycle in 12days. On the 13th day everything tested 0ppm except nitrates. Every tank will be different and smaller tanks do not mean it will occur faster. My other 20g took a little longer but not much.

- jrman83

The Fishless Cycle

This article is intended for those of you who would like to establish a safe environment for your freshwater fish before introducing any fish into your aquarium. As opposed to the method of cycling using a “hardy species” of fish, this method, when done correctly will not cause any harm to any of our aquatic friends. 

Fishless cycling is considered by me and many others to be the most humane way of establishing the nitrogen cycle that is currently available to the aquarium hobbyist.

Rather than go into the different methods of introducing ammonia into the setup aquarium I’m going to focus entirely on using pure ammonia as the source. There are other ways such as allowing shrimp to rot or using fish food. The method of monitoring the progress of the cycle would be the same no matter what the source of ammonia. Also with the pure ammonia method there is no chance of introducing saprolegnia (mold) into your tank.

This article also will not cover the setting up of the tank and its hardware (that’s not what it is about). Also the method I will lay out here is for aquariums with out any live plants. I’m not saying it won’t work with live plants, just that since I have never had any, I claim no knowledge of cycling an aquarium where live plants are present.

What is needed?

In my opinion the most important tool needed for this process is something to monitor the progress of the cycle with a fair degree of accuracy. A good liquid test kit is imperative so you know just how much ammonia to add to reach the desired level and to maintain this level through out the majority of the cycle. Also with out a test kit it is impossible to know when the cycle has completed and it is safe to add fish.

There are many liquid test kits out there and they vary in price from around twenty dollars up to five times that amount and more. Fortunately the least expensive of these liquid kits is sufficient for the task at hand. I recommend the API freshwater Master Test Kit. This kit has every test we will need to keep the ammonia levels where they need to be. Also included are tests to monitor nitrites, nitrates, and dare I mention PH. Put the PH test kit away and forget about it for now. You can use it once the cycle has completed. The PH should not be adjusted during cycling. This will just mess the whole process up.

Next thing needed is ammonia. No problem, right? Guess again. Not just any ammonia will work. Ammonia that is scented or has added detergents should never be used. You will need to read the ingredients on the bottle of ammonia. If it lists anything other than ammonia it is the wrong kind. You should be able to shake the bottle with out the contents foaming at the surface is another way to test. Ammonia containing surfactants only may not foam up when shaken. There is a small consensus out there who believe ammonia with surfactants is safe to use for cycling. I do not subscribe to this theory. I recommend using only pure surfactant free ammonia. Pure ammonia also comes in different concentrations which make it hard to establish dosing parameters, i.e.: add one teaspoon per gallon to achieve a certain level. Don’t worry about the strength of the ammonia. There is away around this that will be explained later on.

You should also have a heater in your tank and a thermometer as proper temperature during the cycle is important. These items will also be needed after the cycle has completed if you plan on keeping tropical fish.

Get a note book. You will need to write things down. Many people (me included) keep a running log to keep track of water parameters, tank and filter maintenance and anything else you want to remember.

I think that covers the materials needed for fishless cycling. One place I know of to get the right kind of ammonia is Ace Hardware. I have also heard that Dollar Tree stores carry pure ammonia.


The Process!

Okay here we go, the tank is set up. I recommend letting it run for 24 hours to allow all the “dust” to settle before starting. During this waiting period adjust your heater to bring your tank water temperature to 83-85 degrees Fahrenheit. The warmer temp will help speed things up just a bit. This is also a great time to test your tap water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Let your cold water tap run wide open for 2-3 minutes to flush the line. Fill a clean well rinsed container of at least a liter in volume half way. Add the recommended amount of dechloranator (you do have some, right?) to the container. Let it sit 24 hours for the C02 to gas out and the water to stabilize. Run the full gauntlet of tests included with your test kit (yes you can even test the PH). Make sure you write all the results down. This has now given us a baseline on your tap water. 

Tap water parameters will change through out the year. Water treatment plants change the amount of chemicals used from Summer to Winter. Also heavy rain or drought conditions can affect your water quality. It is a good idea to test your tap water several times a year.

IMPORTANT!

Make sure you read and understand the directions included with your test kit. Follow these instructions to the letter. Not doing so will result in inaccurate, useless results.

Before adding any ammonia lets also get a baseline reading of the level in your tank. This time leave the PH test out. I’m going to say that ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all read zero in your tank water because everybody’s is going to be different. Just know that if your tank water shows any level of these three things they will affect your test results later on.

* Dose the ammonia at one teaspoon per 10 gallons. Let the water circulate for two hours and test for ammonia. The goal here is to get the level up to 3-5ppm. If after testing your levels fall in this range that is great. If it is less than 3ppm add another teaspoon per 10 gallons and retest. Repeat the ammonia dosing until 3-5ppm is achieved. Write down the dosage you used to obtain this level. This is why the concentration of the ammonia is not important as mentioned earlier. If you should happen to over dose don’t panic. Replace some of the water in the tank with some of your tap water and retest. Eventually you will get it right. 

Now just sit back and do nothing for 72 hours. Tell your wife/husband I said it was okay. (let me know if this works). No need to test during this time. The time has passed and it is time to start monitoring the progress of the cycle. Test your ammonia levels at least once every 24 hours. Once they begin to drop add the appropriate amount of ammonia to bring the levels back up to 3-5ppm.

Now that the ammonia levels have begun to drop it is time to pull out your nitrite test kit and begin monitoring both the ammonia and nitrite levels. Again testing should be done at least once every 24 hours. Keep dosing ammonia to maintain adequate levels (3-5ppm).

At some point your nitrites will peak at around 5ppm. At this time I recommend cutting your ammonia dosage by 50% and reduce the frequency of dosing to every other day. Monitor the ammonia levels closely! To high of a level may stall the cycle and prevent the colonization of bacteria. When nitrites begin to decline begin testing for nitrates. When nitrates begin to register you are getting close to completion. Continue to dose ammonia at the reduced level and monitor closely. 

*(More dosing info at the end of article)

Your cycle has completed when you can dose the ammonia up to 4ppm and after 24 hours when you test the results are zero ammonia, zero nitrites and X ppm nitrates.



Do a water change to bring the nitrate level down to less than 20ppm. Do not do any filter maintenance or gravel vacuuming at this time ! Don’t forget to adjust the temp of the tank water to the appropriate range for the fish you plan on keeping.


The tank is prepared for fish now. A great benefit of this cycling process is that your aquarium has a large bacteria population and can support a greater initial bio load (number of fish). Do not wait to stock your tank after cycle completion as the bacteria will die off if an ammonia source is not present. 

You should continue to monitor your ammonia and nitrite after introducing your fish into your aquarium. Better safe than sorry. After about a week of continued readings of zero for ammonia and nitrite you can quit testing for them. 

Monitor nitrate levels and base the percentage of water changed out on the results of this test. Let’s say after a week of zero ammonia and nitrite you test the nitrate and the results are 40ppm. A 50% water change using replacement water with zero nitrate will result in a 50% reduction in the nitrate level. Your new nitrate level will be 20ppm. I would not recommend any filter maintenance at this time and light gravel vacuuming to avoid triggering a mini cycle. 

The following week keep some of your tank water you drain in a bucket and clean your filter media in this water. Do not clean the bio media unless it begins to impede the flow of the filter. I recommend alternating deep vacuuming of the substrate and the cleaning of the filter. You should never deep vacuum and clean all of the filter media at the same time. 

I have at least two filters on all my tanks. Besides improving water quality and circulation this allows me to alternate filter maintenance. Also in the event of a filter failure an established backup is in place and running. If you can do the same.


How long does this take?

Well let’s see. When the Earth was first formed it took around two billion years before the first bacteria showed up. If you have read the Bible God did it all in seven days (he must have had a real good bacteria in a bottle product!). So I would say some where between 7 days and 2 billion years. No, really it will take as long as it takes. Patience is the key here. My best guess is somewhere from 21-28 days. 

Use the time to research the fish you want to keep. Read all you can about the hobby. Participate in this forum. Post pictures of your tank, ask questions, help others along. The time will go by fast and the results are well worth the time invested.



If you have managed to read through all of this and have learned a thing or two, than I have accomplished one of my goals for writing this. My other goal was to completely waste your time.


Type at ya later,

Rtbob.

Additional dosing instructions added 06/09/11 (Thank you Holly!)

The plan here is to maintain the ammonia levels at the level needed to feed the colonizing bacteria with out rasing levels to high. In a freshly set up system (no bio help what so ever) it is pretty much useless to test the ammonia for around 72 hours after the baseline has been accurately recorded. It will take this long for the bacteria to start forming.

You should have at this time a baseline reading for your tap water and a baseline reading for the tank water. You should also have recorded the initial dose of ammonia required to achieve the desired range (3-5ppm) Using this info you should be able to calculate the amount of ammonia needed to maintain this level.

Example: Baseline ammonia level of tank water was zero. After dosing one tsp for every 10 gallons your new levels were 2 ppm. Not quite there. You add another tsp per gallon and retest. Levels are now 4ppm. Perfect. It took two tsp to achieve the desired level. Initial reading was zero end reading was 4 and dosage was 2 tsp. Divide dosage (2) by change in ammonia level (4)=0.5 tsp. This gives us the dosage required to change the ammonia level by 1ppm, 1/2 a teaspoon.

In a case where the intial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons was enough to reach the desired level you divide 1 by 4 = 0.25 or 1/4 tsp per gallon would adjust the level by 1ppm.

Maintain the ammonia level dosing your calculated amount of ammonia as needed. As the concentration of ammonia varies by product the initial tank dosage is the best way I know of to account for this.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I added the part in later because so many were following the other procedure and it was taking quite a long time to complete. Holly, one of the people you quoted, took about 6wks to complete her fishless cycle. The longest I had ever seen.

Either way will work for you, just depends on how long you want to go through the process. If you have been dosing everyday and you already have nitrites on the 4th day, then cut the dose in half and only dose every 4 days. Keep this up until both ammonia and nitrite are zero. Once that occurs you are done. Sounds like you are already half way there.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you so much. I wasn't complaining about any of the advice, it is very appreciated. I was just confused.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I need to knock on wood for saying this, but I can't believe how well this is going. Ammonia was stable tonight at 4ppm and nitrites went up to 2.0ppm from .25ppm. The nitrates (I tested just out of interest were at 20ppm).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If nitrites are rising then ammonia has been dropping and should continue to drop.

Just want to clarify...you have been dosing ammonia everyday, correct?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I had been dosing ammonia everyday until yesterday. I stopped dosing ammonia once the nitrites appeared. According to the directions I posted above I will dose 1/2 of the ammonia four days from yesterday and every four days until ammonia and nitrites read 0ppm.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, great. Just wanted to confirm that you had been doing it this way from the beginning.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Everyone on here is so helpful. I really appreciate the advice. I have never fishless cycled and the local pet stores don't seem to care what you do as long as you are buying products.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I tested my parameters again tonight and this is what I found:
Ammonia is 2.0 ppm
Nitrite is 5.0 ppm
Nitrate is 40 ppm
High PH is 8.2 ppm

Do I need to do anything about the ammonia?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nope! Stay the course.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks, I will. On a separate note once I have my 20 gallon up and running (completely cycled) how many guppies can I stock in it? How many to start and when to add more?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The beauty of the ammonia fishless cycle is ONCE COMPLETE you can full stock all at once.The bacteria colony you are creating is more than a full stocked aquarium will make.
Can't really say how many guppies though?
Check out AQadvisor for stocking recommendations.
AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor
The info from that site is not gospel,but errors on the safe side.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

It looks like I am almost there. I tested my water again tonight and got the following results: 

Ammonia .50 ppm
Nitrite 5.0ppm

I know that I am looking for zero readings for both of these. But I have a few questions. Tomorrow will be my 4th day since nitrites appeared. They have steadily gone up. Will the ammonia and nitrites zero out at the same time? After they both zero out I also know that I have to 1/2 dose the ammonia again to see if it will be gone the next day. If the ammonia is 0ppm after the test 1/2 dose I need to do the big water change. Now what do I do between the time I do the big water change and stock the tank so I don't starve the bacteria? If my tank zeros out the ammonia and nitrites tomorrow (Tuesday) I will not be able to stock it before the weekend. Do I dose the ammonia to keep the bacteria fed, if so how much? Or do I put fish food in the tank to feed the bacteria? I have also read up on the drip acclimation, is this the best method for acclimating fish? My only worry about this is I live in Maine and I'm not sure that I can keep the bucket with the fish at the 75 to 78 degree range while they are acclimating. Any advice is very much appreciated. If anyone thinks of anything else that I didn't please let me know.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Once nitrites do zero, there is a good chance they will both be that way. Just depends on when you dosed your last ammonia.

It takes a good while before you starve anything. If you needed to wait a week I don't think you would see any issue.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I agree on the waiting probably wouldn't cause a problem, but I will also add that when I did my test after cycling, the ammonia only took 12 hours to be processed completely. It was a half dose (1/2 teaspoon in my case). I don't think letting it sit would hurt, but (correct me if I'm wrong) if you want to be sure it doesn't starve, a small dose would ensure that. Just be sure it's **100%** processed before stocking.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. Tonight is the fourth night since the nitrites appeared and I last full dosed the ammonia. When I did my water chemistry tonight the ammonia was at 0ppm and the nitrites were at 5.0ppm. So the ammonia is definitely being processed. I did the 1/2 dose of ammonia tonight as instructed. I will follow the ever 4th day 1/2 dose schedule until the nitrites zero out. Typically how long does it take for the nitrites to zero out? A question also, what are the nitrites? Out of interest I am just wondering what it is.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nitrites going to zero can take a few days. Once it starts it will zero very fast. You should see your nitrates start to increase. This is usually the by-product of your nitrites being processed. What are nitrites? Others will provide more scientific explanations probably, but I just look at it as the by-product of the ammonia being processed by the beneficial bacteria.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks, my nitrates are 5.0ppm which is the highest reading my test kid shows. So I'm excited that it is working as it is supposed to, and can't wait to start things off on the right foot. It is shocking to me how easy this has been, and all of the years I have tried fish keeping nobody at the stores mentioned fish less cycling. I can't tell you how much money I have spent on ph up and down products to try and get the perfect 7.0 having never been told that a constant 7.4 is better than an up and down.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

There are two forms of beneficial bacteria. If I'm not mistaken, nitrosonomas and nitrobacter. I may be wrong on the technical name of it, but anyways, the first bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite, so nitrite is the by-product of this process. The second bacteria converts nitrite (highly toxic to fish) to nitrate. So nitrate is the by product of this process. During routine aquarium keeping, after the cycle has finished, you should never see nitrite again, because it's a fairly quick process, and it's very fluid, taking ammonia-processing it-handing it off to the second bacteria-processing that. Then all you gotta do to get rid of nitrate is change water regularly. There's a few threads on the subject of what the bacteria and it's by products actually are somewhere in these forums.


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a 10g tank that I'm setting up as my hospital tank. It's been up and running for about 2 weeks. Just been adding some water from a cycling fish in tank along with washing out old media from the cycling tank. There's low readings of Amm and Nitrite. 

Finally got some ammonia from Ace and added a teaspoon last nite. My Amm is 8.0 and Nitrite is over 5.0ppm - should I start over or stop adding Amm until I get 0 readings? Thank you.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I wouldn't start over YET.Test later today.If your ammonia is down and nitrites are up then you are probly up to ad 1/2 dose(I'll estimate 1/4 teaspoon) every four days till they 0 out.Four days would be dose again on Sat/Sun.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A full teaspoon? Did you add, test, add, test to get to a certain reading? This is the way you should have added ammonia.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

So last night I half dosed the ammonia and tonight on re-test the ammonia was back at 0ppm and the nitrites were still around 2.0ppm. So the tank is definitely clearing the ammonia. I am just waiting for the nitrites to zero out. It has been 6 days since the nitrites first appeared. I am still on the every 4th day 1/2 dose ammonia routine. I am just going to stick with it. I'm so excited that the fishless cycling is working that I want a bigger tank


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The nitrites are dropping though, correct? If so, you are within a day or two.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I believe the nitrites are dropping. The API nitrite test is hard to read - the higher end of the scale all of the purple looks the same. My question is this, if the nitrite is not dropping what does that mean? I do think it is dropping though, it seems like it's at 2.0ppm as opposed to the 5.0ppm from the other night. Again the purple is hard to read.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If not dropping just means that, that part of your cycle is not quite developed. If the nitrates are climbing, the nitrites should be dropping although you may still be maxed on your test.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OaklandFISH said:


> I do think it is dropping though, it seems like it's at 2.0ppm as opposed to the 5.0ppm from the other night. Again the purple is hard to read.


When test are maxed out or diffacult to read sometimes adding 1/2 the reagents will make the reading easier to determine.Just remember to multiply the reading X2 to get true value.


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

When I got the Amm, I tested, the Nitrite and Amm were off the chart - I did a 30% water change, Amm still looks like 8.0 (that's as high as my chart goes) - the ntrite dropped from 5.0 to 2.0 - Haven't tested today - going to do that now..


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

Just tested , and Amm is still 8.0 Nitrite 5.00 - probably more...shall I wait 4 days or swap out the water?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Fadil13 said:


> Just tested , and Amm is still 8.0 Nitrite 5.00 - probably more...shall I wait 4 days or swap out the water?


I would just keep waiting.The ammonia would probly be even higher if you had dosed every day to get to 4ppm,so with the presence of nitrites,I would just be watching for another couple days.Keep testing.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Ok I tested my water tonight and this is what I have:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 0ppm
High Range PH (I used the high range because my tap tests at 7.4) 8.0

Is it normal for there to be no nitrates and for my PH to have gone from a 7.4 to an 8.0? 

If this is not typical what do I do?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Ok well I felt like I did something wrong so I retested everything. Here are the new correct results.

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 20ppm
High Range Ph 7.4

Based on these results I think I am ready to do my final ammonia test. I am supposed to dose ammonia up to 4.0ppm and it along with nitrites should 0out again within 24 hours. Is this correct? Also if after the 24 hours ammonia and nitrites zero out I need to do a 50% to 60% water change and let this run for a day before I can stock my tank?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Congrats!! Looks like you are done. The test is up to you. It is only reassurance that indeed the cycle is finished. Surprised that your nitrates aren't much higher. Be sure to check the instructions and follow them to a tee. It is the most difficult test to perform.

The water change should be minimum of 50-60%. But if your nitrates are pretty high it is okay to do 75-80%.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks so much for all of your help. I am going to do the nitrate test again. Is there a reason that my nitrates are not off the charts?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

OaklandFISH said:


> Thanks so much for all of your help. I am going to do the nitrate test again. Is there a reason that my nitrates are not off the charts?


They should be in the 60-80ppm range, but that is just a guess of what I have seen in my fishless cycles. If it test low again, I wouldn't worry about it. Every tank is different.

Glad everything worked as it was supposed to for you.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

If you plan to test the system, I didn't dose back to 4ppm. I used the same half dose amount and waited. It took 12 hrs to process.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for that advice. I think I'm going to wait until tomorrow to 1/2 dose and retest nitrates etc. tonight after all my testing was done I added some treated tap water. I had quite a bit of evaporation because the heat is cranked and the bubble wand is cranked for the fish less cycling. I'm wondering if I did the wrong thing by adding some water to make up for the evaporation?


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

OK my Amm is 0 Nitrite 5.0 should I half dose Amm? Nitrate 80 before the Alloted 5 min is up do I 50 WC. I half dose and Amm is around 2.0 now. 

BTW I believe my 35 and 55g r cycled the Amm and Nitrite been 0 for last 4 days does that mean they're done?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Fadil13 said:


> OK my Amm is 0 Nitrite 5.0 should I half dose Amm? Nitrate 80 before the Alloted 5 min is up do I 50 WC. I half dose and Amm is around 2.0 now.
> 
> BTW I believe my 35 and 55g r cycled the Amm and Nitrite been 0 for last 4 days does that mean they're done?


No waterchanges if there are no fish.Just watch the 10g to see when ammonia and nitrite o out.
The 35 and 55 seemed cycled ,but a 1/2 dose and zeros for ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours or less will be confirmation.


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> The 35 and 55 seemed cycled ,but a 1/2 dose and zeros for ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours or less will be confirmation.


Half dose in the 10g? I did - it's between 1 and 2ppm now.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Needs to go to 0 ammonia and nitrites in 24 hours or less.Then it is cycled.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Today I tested all of the water parameters again. The results are as follows:
Nitrites 0ppm
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
High PH 8.2

I tested my home water again and on the regular PH test I got a 7.6 and on the high PH test I got a 7.4. 

Does the cycling process drive the PH in the tank up? When I set the tank up my PH on the high PH test was 7.4 now it is reading 8.2. If it is just the cycling process I am assuming that the big water change will bring the PH back down to the 7.4.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Your pH is up probly because of co2 outgasing.Although ammonia is pretty high pH(10+) ,with it removed it should have no effect.
Take a sample of your tap water in a cup or bucket and set it aside for 24 hrs.Then test it.Straight out of tap the water still has "all the crap" that our municipalities insatll to ensure "safe drinkable" water.Most of what is used has a very short life when exposed to light and o2.
Looks like you are cycled! A 75% waterchange should bring your nitrates down to 20ppm and you will be ready fish!
ENJOY!
Make sure you have read the drip acclimation sticky for installing your new fish!
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/drip-acclimating-fish-11327.html


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I have well water so I know nothing is being added by a municipality. Also it is a pretty constant 7.4 when I test it throughout the last year or so. I did read the drip acclimation post and am planning on doing that. My only question about that process is how do you keep the water temperature in the bucket up during this process. My tank is at 78 and my room is at 65. Also I'm thinking based on your last response that the 75% water change will bring my PH back down. Also what is co2 out gasing? Do I need to do anything about it?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

All water has o2(oxygen) and co2(carbon dioxide) in it.When circulated as opposed to be confined in pipes the co2(if higher then what is in the atmosphere) will come out of the water.When co2 leaves water the pH goes up.
Many use co2 to help with growing plants and inject it from pressurised,or DIY(yeast and sugar) set ups.I inject from a 25 lb bottle in my 180g.My ph is 7.4-7.6 without co2,but goes all the way to 6.1-6.3 while I inject(only during lighting cycle).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

OaklandFISH said:


> I have well water so I know nothing is being added by a municipality. Also it is a pretty constant 7.4 when I test it throughout the last year or so. I did read the drip acclimation post and am planning on doing that. My only question about that process is how do you keep the water temperature in the bucket up during this process. My tank is at 78 and my room is at 65. Also I'm thinking based on your last response that the 75% water change will bring my PH back down. Also what is co2 out gasing? Do I need to do anything about it?


I think I posted in that thread about the issue of keeping the water warm this time of the year. You just have to do the best you can. I have a small electric space heater that I can place right next to the bucket. Others may use very small 50W heaters or something similar.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

OaklandFISH said:


> Today I tested all of the water parameters again. The results are as follows:
> Nitrites 0ppm
> Ammonia 0ppm
> Nitrate 80ppm
> ...


That is about where I expected your nitrates to be before you do the big water change before stocking. You will need to do about an 80% change to get those nitrates down where they need to be.

The cycling process can drive down the ph value if ammonia is present. This would only apply to a tank with water that has a low kh value. Since you are on well water, I would guess that is not your problem. I would just test your tank with the high range test kit. If the ph is high, testing with the low range kit will just show it maxed.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I use a "small" 2 qt painters bucket to put fish in and place that bucket in a 5 g bucket.This way you could have the smaller bucket in heated water(in the 5g).This method also allows me to "overflow" the smaller bucket,and after my determined time really speed up drip to get fish in only my tank water before they get there.Then I net my fish from painters bucket and place them in "my tank water" in the same "specimen container" most LFS use and let them hang in tank for a little while so they know where they are going.
Towel under bucket and on top might help to hold heat also.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

So on Saturday morning, yesterday my ammonia and my nitrites were zeroed out. The nitrates were 80ppm and the high range PH was 8.2. It looked like my cycle was complete. So I dosed ammonia up to 4ppm yesterday at about 1:00 PM 21 hours later the ammonia zeroed out, but the nitrites are still at 2ppm. Is this typical? Do the nitrites take longer for the ammonia to zero out? I was going to do my 60 to 70% water change today so I can stock my tank tomorrow. Is this too soon?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nitrites will always follow ammonia. Ammonia rises and as it goes away nitrites will/can rise and as they go away nitrates will rise. The nitrites should be gone sometime today. If you are ready to do the water change now, I would just check to make sure it is continuing to drop and if it is just do the water change. Your tank is cycled. Adding 4ppm ammonia and everything not zeroing out within a certain time will not change that. As long as you are watching the decline, the bio filter is doing its job. That 4ppm is a larger load than your tank will likely ever see again.


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## Fadil13 (Jan 15, 2014)

FYI: My Amm 0.25 Nitrite 2.0 I half dosed Amm is 4.0ppm now will check later Amm appears to be close to zeroing in 24 hrs. Nitrite continuing to be present, but I believe its decreasing as expected - believe I'm close.

I was thinking - since this is a hospital tank, I really didn't plan to stock with fish yet, but I do realize the tank need to keep Amm present to keep the bacteria alive - would it be a good idea to stock with pregnant female guppies that are ready to go? Maybe give a couple of frys a chance to grow? Will that be to stressful on the fish?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

So what do I do if my PH is on the high side even after I do an 80% water change. I know I can get bottled water that has a 7.2PH, o ammonia, 0 nitrate, and 0 nitrite. Would it be best to do the 80% change with that and then buy 4 gallons of that for weekly or biweekly 20% water changes?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I personally wouldn't worry about the high ph.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

finished my fish less cycle and did the test run by adding ammonia to 4.0ppm. The next day the ammonia and the nitrites zeroed out, so the cycle is done. I should add that the nitrates were 80ppm. Today I did the big water change of 80%. The ammonia and nitrites are still at zero and the nitrates dropped to 5.0ppm. I did treat the PWC water with API tap conditioner. The problem is my tank PH is a 7.4. The local fish stores (all 3 of them) said this is way too high. I brought in water samples to them and they all used the regular PH test. I told them it was just going to test out at 7.6 and asked them to do the high range PH test. They all said that the high range test is for salt water tanks only. I explained that the high range tests PH beyond the 7.6 and will give a more accurate number if the PH is on the high range. Needless to say they all tested at 7.4. I have read on here and many other websites that a stable PH of 7.4 to 7.8 is better than going up and down with chemicals. I want to have a community tank with guppies and possibly a few tetras. Am I best to use chemicals or just have the constant PH, drip acclimate, and do PWC's to stay on top of any ammonia or nitrates that pop up? After the big water change (I'm assuming that the advice will be to stick with the constant PH) how long do I have to wait to stock my tank?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You can stock your tank completely NOW.That is the beauty of the fishless cycle,you have generated a larger BB colony than your tank should ever need.
Your LFS(all 3 of them) ARE OUT OF THEIR HEADS , if they think 7.4 is high! I keep discus,cardinal tetras and rummy nose(among many others ) in my 180 that is 7.6!
Stay with constant pH,do not buff!It will make water changes easier on fish and you.
Besides most buffers(all the ones that lower pH) are high in phosphates and will probly cause algae problems and the usaull large pH swings that buffers can cause.
Remember the advice the LFS gives you,so you can judge for your self(or come here and ask) when they spout CRAP!7.4 is high pH THAT IS CRAP!
Drip acclimate and enjoy!The acclimating is the most important.After the fish have been in your tank for 24 hours they are all set with your water,and waterchanges will cause no trouble.You really shouldn't see ammonia or notrites again just the steady rise of nitrates.Test regulary after stocking to see how your nitrates accumulate and change water to it safe.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm a little frustrated right now. For some reason my PH in the tank is now reading at 8.2. I thought that the fish less cycling may have driven this value up, but I did an 80% water change today because my cycle is complete. I don't know what to do. I had a 55 gallon a few years ago, last year I had a 29 gallon - I had to take a break because I was dealing with the whole PH battle. I was sold so many PH down products and none of them ever seemed to work. Any advice on what might be going on or what to do I would greatly appreciate it.


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## andyg (Feb 7, 2014)

Dont be overly concerned with the pH. Acclimate your fish correctly, and they will be OK. Trying to change the pH with all those chemicals is very frustrating and doesnt work well, and is worse for the fish then if it just stays a consistent number


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I did my big water change yesterday and this AM when I tested the PH it was 8.2 again but darker and looking like it was going towards 8.4. I bought five gallons of distilled water with a PH of 7.0 and switched this out with five gallons of my tank water. The PH is now 8.0. When I went to get fish today the LFS said that I was going to kill any fish I put in the tank. She said I was crazy for doing the fish less cycle. She said the ammonia was going to kill the fish if not the PH. I explained the whole fish less cycle and she basically yelled at me. So do I get fish tonight or not? I don't want to starve the bacteria colony I worked hard to get. Tell me what to do.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Sorry the PH is now 8.2.


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## andyg (Feb 7, 2014)

To paraphrase Coralbandit "...Your LFS(all 3 of them) ARE OUT OF THEIR HEADS ...". 

The pH will not kill the fish if you acclimate them correctly (see the drip acclimation procedures within this forum if you havent already". If it makes you feel better, why dont you get a few inexpensive fish, acclimate them, and watch them not die? Or, you can make a deal with your LFS -- what are they going to do for you if they are wrong? Some free product maybe? Free fish??
Your LFS is uninformed. If your ammonia is reading 0, and your nitrites are as well, and you have done a water change to keep the nitrates in check, and you acclimate the fish, your pH wont kill them. 

My pH out of the tap is 8.7--8.8. My dead fish are doing a pretty good swimming impression I guess........:fish-in-a-bag:


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sounds like they would have rather had you kill your fish cycling your tank with "fish in".
Until I knew who I was dealing with (at LFS) I used to ask the newbs some kind of tough questions(that I already knew the answers to)just to see where their true knowledge was.Sometimes I would even say a "what if" when I knew they were wrong!I am very lucky that my LFS has knowledgable caring employees!
I still have 11 clown loaches that are 10+ years old.They have been through well water(8.2+) and Tanganyikan cichlids,RO/DI water(6.5-) with rainbows and are now in municipal tap water(7.6) with co2 injected,which brings my pH down to 6.1 daily.The 
co2 changing the pH is not the same as just changing water with different pH's, but the story is ;if acclimated properly most fish will do fine in our water(wherever it is).
Your LFS people sound like real pieces of work!The whole "high pH test kit is for saltwater "speaks volumes to me!Do they sell African cichlids?
and WOW,you should feel lucky you're not trying to get saltwater info from them!


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm not sure if this was suggested earlier in the thread, but has anyone considered using plants to cycle a tank? If you use a clay pot, fill bottom layer with gravel, fill with organic soil, place in appropriate water plant (I like amazon swords), cap with sand. Your tank will be cycled in 3 weeks without adding anything but a plant friendly light.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

All of the LFS's sell African Cichlids. I had considered them at one point, but they eventually require larger tanks and to be honest the thought of sticking my hands in the water to do maintenance with them in it scares me. I know it sounds crazy, but the smaller fish don't bother me, but larger ones do. The LFS told me today that with my PH it would destroy the slime coat on any fish. I could not believe that none of them knew about fish less cycling or drip acclimation. Actually at the pet store today the woman said stop reading information on the internet. Put the open bag with the fish in it in the tank and it will swim out when it feels ready. I hear what your saying about asking questions that you know the answers to. I have been doing that the last couple of weeks and it surprises me what these people don't know. The other day one of them sold a new tank setup with the fish on the same day. I heard the lady buying ask if she needed to test the water and the person working said "no you won't have to worry about that for weeks." I also did a test today. I have the Penn Plax Hideaway Cave in my aquarium. I pulled that out and tested it with the bottle one of the nitrate test. It fizzed. I thought that since it was man made I didn't have to worry about that. So I am wondering if that drive up my PH last night. I removed both of them. I also put water in a bucket with one of these and notice that it drove the PH up. So I am looking to see what happens overnight. I plan on getting a Few guppies tomorrow and just throwing myself into this. I just worry about harming the little guys. I will pay close attention to ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. I'm hoping that the big water change was not too much after the cycle completed. Those LFS people have me paranoid. Does anyone know of a good freshwater fish book that I can use as reference?


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## andyg (Feb 7, 2014)

OaklandFISH said:


> Does anyone know of a good freshwater fish book that I can use as reference?


Lets rule out any books they sell at that store......


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I wasn't suggesting africans ,just wondered if they even the know the proper pH for them(it is 8.2+ and you would need a high end pH kit{not saltwater}).I've grown bored of trying to win over ignorant LFs employees.They're fighting(lying) for your money,I'm not.This has turned out to be a very unfortunate position they have put you in,and I am sorry this just doesn't seem as fun and relaxing for you as it should be.I have kept fish for over 30 years.I have aprox. 1,000 gallons of aquariums in my house(more than some stores),and have bred and still breed many fish.a large number of the members that have responded have more experience and sucess with fish than I or your LFS.Any book from any store should offer some good info.You gotten some of the best experienced info available here.Eventually we all have to make decisions for ourselves.eventually you will have to attempt to diagnose an illness or disease.
It's time to decide where the good info comes from.Just open the bag in your tank and the fish will swim out when it's ready?How much crap do you have hear them say before you say enough?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Is asked about the African C's PH and they said they keep it at 7.4 the rest of the freshwater are kept at 7.0. I didn't ask about the saltwater fish. The LFS that is privately owned keeps their African C tank at 8.2.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Berylla said:


> I'm not sure if this was suggested earlier in the thread, but has anyone considered using plants to cycle a tank? If you use a clay pot, fill bottom layer with gravel, fill with organic soil, place in appropriate water plant (I like amazon swords), cap with sand. Your tank will be cycled in 3 weeks without adding anything but a plant friendly light.


What? How does the cycle begin without an ammonia source. It can't even start without it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

It sounds like your natural ph is 8.2. Welcome to the club. I would just settle on that and don't worry too much about it. If you want to keep ph sensitive fish you may need to add in RO water to naturally lower. Peat, almond leaves, etc...These things are just temporary.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> What? How does the cycle begin without an ammonia source. It can't even start without it.


The cycling starts with the introduction of good bacteria and organic material. The plants and soil supply all that is needed to cycle the tank. And it's fishless to boot.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Berylla said:


> The cycling starts with the introduction of good bacteria and organic material. The plants and soil supply all that is needed to cycle the tank. And it's fishless to boot.


As much as some of that may be true, you do not get any of that stuff within a 3wk period. What introduced that "good bacteria". The organic material the plants may have introduced, but still not seeing your source of ammonia.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> As much as some of that may be true, you do not get any of that stuff within a 3wk period. What introduced that "good bacteria". The organic material the plants may have introduced, but still not seeing your source of ammonia.


I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't achieve this for myself MANY times. The soil has organic material which will decay in the tank = ammonia. The cycle takes 3 to 4 weeks, but I have introduced fish in 3 weeks with no problem.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Berylla said:


> I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't achieve this for myself MANY times. The soil has organic material which will decay in the tank = ammonia. The cycle takes 3 to 4 weeks, but I have introduced fish in 3 weeks with no problem.


You can add fish with plants and do so without issue. However, just plants would be a very slow and weak bio system if it occurred at all. Soil...you mean if someone uses soil, maybe, but most use some type of gravel or things like Eco complete. A planted susbstrate is not soil.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> You can add fish with plants and do so without issue. However, just plants would be a very slow and weak bio system if it occurred at all. Soil...you mean if someone uses soil, maybe, but most use some type of gravel or things like Eco complete. A planted susbstrate is not soil.


In my instructions, I had "organic soil" to the pot. This is where the organic material will come from. I'm not sure why you are arguing with me when I've done this before. It's logical too - it's what happens in nature. There was a writeup about this in one of the major aquarium magazines. It's really not a new thing. And you don't have to believe me.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

OaklandFISH your LFS(s? multiples??) is CRAZY. Like CRAY CRAY CRAZY. The stuff they are telling you is COMPLETELY insane.

The guys are right though, the things you are being told from the shop are so completely different than everything you'll be taught here, you'll just have to pick a side. I don't say that cruelly - it's going to make you crazy if you don't. So far all of the things I hear from your LFS make me say "what??!!??" So I guess just add me on to team forum. But then, they've taught me much of what I know.

Also sorry but when I read "7.4 is too high!" I actually laughed.

The choice is yours - stop reading the internet, or stop sharing with the fish store and just do your business. Also if you pick the latter you can ask them for sources on their info... Pick either so you don't go nuts.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I have found that my daytime PH is 8.2 this is when the lights are on and the plants are active. At night when the lights are off and my airation is on I have a PH of 8.0. I vowed to do this chemical free with the exception of when illness occurs, I'm talking about the tank  I will be injecting CO2 and I am going to try the peat pellet thing to bring down my PH naturally. I have picked a side! It's just going to take some time to just look at the LFS as a supplier rather than an information house. I have had all kinds of pets my whole life. I got into fish when I was about 10. My first two goldfish made the trip from New York to Maine and lived through my college years. Back then my LFS guy had all of the knowledge and wanted to share it. So the lines have been drawn so to speak. I have had great luck and have learned a lot from all of you. The fish less cycle has been such a great success. So I'm going to get a few guppies today, drip acclimate them, and just keep checking my parameters.


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## andyg (Feb 7, 2014)

Let us know how it comes out--and post a pic if you can

Kudos to you for doing your research, taking your time, asking questions, etc. Too many people buy the tank and the fish and slap it all together on day 1 without having any idea of what should be done. Its unfortunate that your LFS is not more up to speed on methodology, but you always have us to bounce stuff off of.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I added 6 guppies today. I also added 1 and 1/2 ounces of Sera Peat Pellets today and got my Hagen Nutrafin Natural co2 infuser up and running. I drip acclimated the guppies which worked out really well. I did the drip acclimation a bit different and it seemed to work out well. I did the following:

I began by taking a small plastic potatoe chip bag clip to secure my airline hose to the inside of my tank.

Then I took the hose and clipped it with a clothes pin to a 2 quart plastic container. The end of the hose that went in the bucket had an airline regulator on it.

I set the 2 quart container inside a five gallon bucket that had water in it that was the same temperature as my aquarium water.

I put my fish with enough water to cover them comfortably in the 2 quart container.

I opened the airline regulator so it would drip one drop per second.

I covered the bucket with the container inside with a bath towel.

I did this for two hours and then netted the fish and put them in the tank - I did not put any water from the fish store in my tank.

The light in the tank is off and they all seem to be swimming around and having a great time.

I will be checking my PH often due to using the peat pellets and having a co2 injector. Is it ok to have them both running? I have my light and my bubble wand on timers so that the wand is off when the ligh is on and vice versa. 

Any feedback on the peat and co2 injector would be much appreciated.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Peat pellets will lower some but they lose their affect over time with water changes? Your CO2 will lower your ph also but you should not look on that value as you would as if you are trying to reach a specific ph for a species of fish. Your native ph will return a few hours after your CO2 is off.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I plan on using the peat pellets in the long term. From what I have read they last for about four weeks. Also the co2 infuser I have will run 24 hours, but at night when the lights are off I will run the bubble wand because I know that plants use oxygen at night and I don't want to starve my fish of oxygen at night. Does this sound right?


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

OaklandFISH said:


> I plan on using the peat pellets in the long term. From what I have read they last for about four weeks. Also the co2 infuser I have will run 24 hours, but at night when the lights are off I will run the bubble wand because I know that plants use oxygen at night and I don't want to starve my fish of oxygen at night. Does this sound right?


I use peat but in my 45G discus tank, it lasts only 2 weeks at the most since I change water so much. It does soften the water and slightly lowers the PH and the fish seem happy with the browner water. Running C02 24/7 is too extreme, especially if you are a C02 newbie. You could gas your fish by accident. BTW, I live in the midwest where the water is very hard and PH is 8 and my discus have laid eggs in my tank 3 times now. Stable PH is the aim for healthy fish.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would watch your fish carefully with adding co2 24/7.A 20g tank won't take much to start to stress your fish.Some of the "sugar yeast" systems can flucuate a great deal so the most concern should be first day or couple of new mix.Hopefully the air at night will help with outgasing it.
You'll have better luck with a stable pH if you either; leave it alone or mix RO/distilled water in a regular amount when replacing or changing.
By simply mixing your source with a determined amount of either you can get the pH you want every time consistently.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks Tom, I was using the co2 because of the plants in my aquarium. I have a DIY system so I can't turn it on and off. From what I read you can't just turn it off at night. This is why I am providing airation at night. I had ladder for my co2 system in the tank, but one of my guppies got stuck behind it. So now I am using a ceramic disc infuser. The system has not built up enough pressure for that to start working yet. I have six guppies 2 males and for females. Let me correct that I have 6 guppies and 10 frye that I was able to catch and put in a nursery box that hangs in my tank. I have probably another six that are hiding in various places throughout the tank. I did purchase a small RO filter system for water changes. I have to come up with the right mix of that and my tap water. I'm not shooting for a perfect 7 with my PH. I just wanted to lower it a bit from the 8.2. With the sera peat pellets it has dropped to about a 8. Any advice is appreciated. I really only went with the co2 so that my plants have a chance. What do people typically do with guppy frye? Do they let the strong survive in the tank or do they use a nursery box?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

Ok so I was paranoid about all of the co2 injection warnings, so before it even started producing I pulled it.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would think the co2 will be ok ,just that you should watch your fish.The air pump at night will help.Most diy(sugar yeast ) co2 set ups don't generate enough pressure to through ceramic disk.Maybe just a common airstone placed in the out flow of filter will spread out the bubbles.
If you have live plants the guppy fry may be able to hide in them.My swords hide real good in my breeder tanks,but they are packed with plants.The fry if they survive (filter and adults) will grow much faster if left in the tank then in a breeder trap/net.
Just re-install co2 in am when lights go on and see how it works during the day(or at end of day).


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

So I have had my guppies for three days now. I originally, unless I'm crazy purchased six, but it seems one is missing. I checked for a jumper, in the filter, and throughout the tank. Will guppies eat adult guppies? I also have a ton of babies. I have netted about ten and put them in a breeder box until they are slightly bigger and able to survive in my tank. My water parameters 3 days in with fish are below:
High range PH 7.8
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Ammonia 0ppm

It seems as though the fish less cycle really works. When do I do my first water change? Also if I'm using peat and co2 with a DIY system do I use my tap water 8.2 PH and just use the conditioner, or do I mix some distilled 7.2 PH in with it? If the answer us use a mix what PH am I looking for?


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

OaklandFISH said:


> So I have had my guppies for three days now. I originally, unless I'm crazy purchased six, but it seems one is missing. I checked for a jumper, in the filter, and throughout the tank. Will guppies eat adult guppies? I also have a ton of babies. I have netted about ten and put them in a breeder box until they are slightly bigger and able to survive in my tank. My water parameters 3 days in with fish are below:
> High range PH 7.8
> Nitrate 10ppm
> Nitrite 0ppm
> ...


Since you just cycle your tank, I would only peform a 25% change every week. Do not overfeed your fish - lightly feed once a day only.

Since you are still trying to lower your PH, I would age the water before pouring into your tank by using a bubbler overnight. Since it's a small amount, you won't need a heater with it. I would premix with RO but do not add dechlor until just before you pour into your tank. 

Measure the PH of the aged water + RO. If it's over 8 still, I would age with peat. But honestly, especially for guppies, a PH of 8 is perfectly fine.Save yourself the headache of matching ph every water change.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I mentioned the other day that I could not find a guppy. I found him last night. He was the one that got stuck behind the bubble ladder. I thought I had saved him after freeing him ( and removing the ladder) but he died. I also have another one that was dead when I did my morning feeding. All of the rest including the frye are swimming around having a grand time. My water perimeters are fine and on the advice if several here I am not using the co2 injection. I'm not sure what's going on?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Many members have had trouble with guppies lately.In general with good water(yours sounds fine/as did other members) most have just "chalked it up" to poor overall quality of guppies lately.Continuos "inbreeding" by fish farms and the like.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong I started with 6 adult guppies. I am now down to 4. One died three days ago, another died yesterday, and still another dead one this AM. All of the babies that have been born are alive. I have about three in the tank that are alive and doing well (babies) and I have ten in the breeder box who are alive and doing well. I only gave 3 adults left. I tested the water and all parameters are fine and the PH is stable. I set aside 4 gallons of tap water last night, put in an air stone, and retested this AM. It has a PH of 8.2. I mixed it 50/50 with distilled water from the store and now it has a PH of 7.4. Is it ok to use this for a partial water change?


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I have never lost new fish like this and I did the fish less cycle. Are there better fish that you can all recommend with my PH and other water parameters? 

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20
High PH Tap/gassed out 8.2 and tank 8.0


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It's ok to use the mixed water.It will further be "diluted" by the water in tank so you should end up around 7.9 or so.Hard to say if it is the guppies or not,but many(I mean many) have issues with them lately.Being a breeder(hoobby level) I find it hard to believe that a fish that is raised to an adult(or so) is so genetically weak that they die in days for people.I lean more towards stress from shipping and all,but it is diffacult to say any fish is a "quality" fish if you don't know how they are raised.When I trade fish to my LFS(every month) they lable them "locally bred".If your store /or you can find a store with fish from local breeders you may have better overall luck.I really don't think the fish farms do it right.They leave the fish in ponds where they are subject to all sorts of things like ;run off,bird waste or other "outside" sources of bacteria.They have no way of keeping track of fish in a pond,or their health,only a final count as to how many they pulled.


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## OaklandFISH (Aug 13, 2013)

I have been at this for a dew weeks now and things are going great, I think. I have been doing weekly 20% water changes and my fish and frye seem to be doing great. My PH is stable at 8.0, my ammonia is always 0ppm, my nitrates have never been over 0.5ppm. My question is this - tonight all those values weird the same except for my nitrates. My nitrates ar showing 0.0ppm according to the API test kit I have been using. I know this test is finicky and have followed the instructions to the letter. I have two adult guppies and about 6 frye. I also have a a bunch of plants.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Have you ever registered any nitrites?


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