# I'm Doing Something Wrong - What?



## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Hi everyone.

I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I have a 40 gallon tank that has been up since first week of September. I brought it home, I set it up, (put in the gravel, put in the decorations, put in the live plants, put in the heater, the thermometer, the filter, the air stone, etc...basically acted like there were fish in there though there were not), and waited.

Right on schedule, at about week 2, the water started to turn cloudy. I knew that this meant things were happening that were supposed to be happening. At this point I turned off the air stone because someone informed me that I would "over oxygenate" my fish so I figured just get used to it not being used. 

I waited longer.

I waited for 5-6 weeks. The water never stopped being cloudy. I did my tests. My tests came back with the readings they should. 

I decided to get some fish an give it a go. The very first fish I got was a betta. He swam around happily and was quite the character.

I then got some panda platys, a pleco, (the small kind), a kuhli loach and some Danios. Oh and 3 cardinal tetras.

Well, as you may well know, cardinals are not that hardy and they died off almost immediately. 

Then two platys died. Then the loach died. Then the Danios were dying. 

I tested the water again, I did a 20-25% water change, everything was coming back as it should. I took water to the fish store and had them run a test. Their tests matched up with my test readings. I told them my water was still cloudy after all this time. They gave me chemicals to use. I replaced some of the fish.

Brought everything home, slowly introduced the new fish to their new environment, waited a day. I then followed the directions on the chemical bottle, (AmQuel), to a tee. Two days later my betta died. He had been doing great until I added this garbage. I'm really bothered by that one.

Slowly, other fish started dying. Once a day, another fish dies.

Do another water change. Test again. Everything is where it's supposed to be. Water is still cloudy, however, plus I'm starting to get algae by this time.

Got a sponge from the fish store, got some more fish to replace dead ones, slowly introduced them, everyone swam around happily....

The next day, another fish dies. The next day, another fish dies. The next day, another fish dies.

This past week I did two water changes, 20-25% each time. (And yes, I use a water conditioner...and yes, I aerate the water 24 hours before adding it in.) Water still cloudy, fish still dying. Tests still come back reading what they should.

Decided to turn on the air stone as I saw one of my original Danios dying and was getting desperate for a solution.

Well! Less than 24 hours after doing that, the water was definitely clearing. The Danio still died, as well as the last original Danio I had, (seriously, SIGH), but the water was clearing.

Two days later, I was now able to see through my tank, see my background, see everything. It's still not crystal clear but I can actually SEE in to my tank and all the way through it two days after turning on the air stone. Did another test. Yep, same results, as they should be.

The next day, another Danio dies. And the pleco. 

Tested the water again this morning because I see a cory now acting like it's going to die. Test results are still good, water is really clearing up, but my fish keep dying.

This tank has been set up since September 09, 2011.

The test results are as follows, (each time):

PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: Under 5ppm
Chlorine: 0
Temp: 72-74 F

I have an AquaClear filter that runs 200gph so the filter is sufficient for this size aquarium.

I have gravel, not sand, not coral. All decorations have been rinsed. When I do change a filter cartridge, I rinse it in aquarium water, (out of the aquarium, of course), before putting it in.

I read somewhere that sometimes there is electricity in the water so I unplugged the original heater I got to see if that would make a difference. (I have two heaters, Maine winters can be brutal.) No, the cory is not looking good.

I see no Ick, I see no tail rot. I have moss balls and three other live plants in there. They are growing beautifully and thriving.

I do not overfeed my fish. (Now starting to wonder if I feed them enough?)

I do not over clean my tank. When I change a filter cartridge, (such as the carbon), I change one at a time and I never change on the day I do a water change. I never fully clean the gravel, I stir up a little and use the gravel vacuum to suck up the dirty water. 

As far as I know, I'm doing everything by the book but my fish keep dying. Every single day, I wake up to find another dead fish.

I now have left: 

Three panda platys, three (maybe soon be two), panda corys, 2 loaches, 3 Danios, (last time I checked, light isn't yet on and won't be for another few hours). 

I am not adding in any more fish and won't add in any more fish until someone fricken makes it longer than a week, (I have ONE original fish left in there now, a panda platy who has made it longer than a week but everyone else keeps dying). 

What am I missing? What is going on?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, sorry to hear you've had so much loss. 

Going back, did you rinse your gravel really well? How many days did you wait before you added fish? I'm unclear if you already had fish in the tank before the cloudiness started showing? Have you ever tested your ph throughout the day to see if it is steady or going up and down? Are you on softened water in your house?

You have a lot of fish in there for a cycling tank. You could have started with about 4 and kept it that way until the nitrogen cycle had completed. Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle? If not, I'd google it and read the short description of what happens. I am surprised that you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites with your fish in there. Possibly, you could be already through it depending on when fish were first introduced. 

I would do like you said, stop buying and let it all settle down. Test daily. Perform 30-45% weekly water changes. When and if you buy a fish (once you are sure the cycle is complete), you should add no more than 2-3 per week. You have to give time for the bio-filter to catch up to the new fish.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

What type of test kit are you using,the liquid or the strips?(sorry if it was mentioned)

How are the fish acclimated?Improper acclimation can also have an ill effect on fish.

Could you tell us how the fish act before they die?

I am sorry you are having these issues,hopefully we can help you work them out.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

"_I brought it home, I set it up, (put in the gravel, put in the decorations, put in the live plants, put in the heater, the thermometer, the filter, the air stone, etc...basically acted like there were fish in there though there were not), and waited....I waited 5 to 6 weeks...._"

The water has been cloudy since week two. I waited 5-6 weeks before putting in fish. I ACTED like there were fish in there. There were no fish in there. I waited over a month to a month and a half. Fishless. The water never stopped being cloudy. Fishless. Since week 2 the water was cloudy. At 5-6 weeks, the tests were giving me the results I sought so despite the cloudy water, I put some fish in there.

I did not put all of those fish in there at the same time. I started out with one. A betta.

I was told that doing a fishless cycle, (which I had, no fish, for 5-6 weeks), would take about 5-6 weeks. I tested the water and it gave me the results that I was informed meant the cycling was complete despite the fact that since week 2, the water was cloudy. 

Yes, I'm aware and familiar with the nitrogen cycle. As stated, I've had an aquarium before. I cycled this way before. With no fish. This tank cycled with no fish for 5-6 weeks.

I added about 6 fish a week. Everyone kept dying, I added more to replace them. I guess maybe this was wrong. *frown

I am constantly checking the PH as well as everything else. I can't tell exact times because I do them at random times because I am getting desperate for an answer. No matter when I do them, no matter what time of day, they always come back the same.

Today another Danio died, my loach died, and that cory is probably going to die...it's still hanging on.

I have:

3 panda platys, (that seem...SEEM to be doing fine...and one of those platys is one of the "original" fish I bought meaning, while I did not buy that fish the first day I put a fish in the tank, I have had him in the tank about 2-3 weeks and THUS far, (knock on driftwood), he is doing great).

3 corys, (who knows how long that will last)

2 danios

1 loach

majerah: My test kit is the liquid kind. It's the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. I have a chlorine test by Red Sea.

Acclimation is not too far away from the drip way I've read about here. I have little buckets, I put them in there. I slowly add in some of my own tank water in there. SLOWLY. I then take a net and fish them out and put them in the tank.

I'll tell you how the cory is acting right now because typically the fish die in the middle of the night when I'm asleep and I wake up to find them.

The cory was on his side, (I righted him), and at first I thought he was dead. I went to fish him out with the net and noticed he was still breathing but it was pretty rapid. It's almost like he's gulping for air. I brought him to the surface and let him take a breath like they do naturally and then put him back down in the tank, upright.

I wonder about everything. Did I rinse the gravel enough, did I rinse the tank enough, is it the plants, is there some parasite I can't see, am I not feeding them enough, do they not like the light, do I not have enough of them of their kind and they are "depressed", (if fish can get that way), maybe they hate the background...I know...but dang, I'm looking for anything.

As I said, I turned off the airstone at week 2 because I was informed that it was unnecessary and may kill the fish. This past week I turned it back on because I'm running out of ideas and all the fish perked up. The danios were playing in it, and the one that ended up dying anyway was doing a whole lot better at least for a few hours after I turned it on.

The water did do a whole lot of clearing up after that but it's still not crystal clear; it's still a little cloudy.

I'm so afraid I'm going to completely fail at this. I thought bigger tanks were supposed to be easier and I'm finding it is so much harder than when I had the 10 gallon years ago. 

I'm killing fish left and right and that's really not making me feel good at all.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Ok, I just did the PH test again just to see if there were any changes. It's so hard to tell because the colors are rather similar but I did the regular and the high PH test just to clarify.

It said for sure 7.4 on the high PH test.

When I do the regular PH test, it looks like it could be 7.4 or 7.6...

????

Edit: Counted the weeks since I started the whole set up, we are on week 9. The water is still cloudy. Even though the ammonia and nitrites are 0 and the nitrates are under 5ppm...maybe it's NOT done cycling? The water is still cloudy so...ugh, I don't even know anymore. I just know I'm a fish killer.


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## alhays31808 (Aug 27, 2011)

try the test strips, they might work better(i've never actually cycled or tested my aquarium tank and all of my fish are perfectly fine, except for the poor little cardinal tetra that keeps on getting bullied by my bigger cardinal tetra that's a little lopsided. don't know if that's a sign that he's getting old or not. will try to figure out how to post pictures in posts


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

alhays31808 said:


> try the test strips, they might work better(i've never actually cycled or tested my aquarium tank and all of my fish are perfectly fine, except for the poor little cardinal tetra that keeps on getting bullied by my bigger cardinal tetra that's a little lopsided. don't know if that's a sign that he's getting old or not. will try to figure out how to post pictures in posts


Really? I was told that the liquid tests were more accurate than the strips.

When I took a sample in to the lfs, they had the strips and their readings were a little different than mine, (said the PH was 6 something), but everything else came out the same. (To clarify, this test at the lfs was about two weeks ago, not current.)

So many different opinions...I'll try anything at this point.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I might be missing something, so wait for someone to agree with this, but you did a fishless cycle, did you add an ammonia source? if not the tank probably did NOT cycle.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Summer said:


> I might be missing something, so wait for someone to agree with this, but you did a fishless cycle, did you add an ammonia source? if not the tank probably did NOT cycle.


I did not put ammonia in there because I had/have live plants in there. 

I set the tank up as if there were fish in there and that included putting the plants in there. The plants have been in there for 9 weeks. They are thriving and doing beautifully. I don't use CO2 or anything, either.


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi, sorry for you troubles. I think you will find by not adding ammonia you didn't start the cycle. IMO you have not cycled but it doesn't explain why you have the reading like you do. Just wanted to clarify that you are using BOTH bottle 1 and bottle 2 when testing??


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Fish gulping,this means either ammonia or lack of oxygen.How anyone could tell you that you can over oxygenate a tank is strange.Thats something I would kinda believe with raising brine shrimp and thats only because bubbles get trapped under them.Not the same with fish.I suggest turning the airstone back on.Not all fish breathe atmospheric air.

And do not try test strips they are inaccurate.

A fishless cycle usually has no fish or plants because the addition of ammonia will not do well with them.However,a silent cycle is where you place lots of plants and let them get established and then slowly add a fish or two every week or so,to allow the filter to build up the bacteria.I think someone told you wrong,or you had confused aspects of both together.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Without fish waste, raw meat, or some other ammonia source, there cannot have been a cycle. You are likely experiencing it now...


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Ok guys, here's what I've done...

Actually, harvey, yes I'm using both bottle 1 and 2 and doing the whole shaking thing it says in the instructions.

Alright, I went to the fish store, (the better one), to buy a skimmer. Didn't think about one of those until reading a thread on here about someone's 30 gallon long tank they got in Craig'slist, (nice deal!).

I think the connection is too short because I don't think it's low enough and the filter is now loud. Ugh. But hopefully it does something and I'll turn it off before I head to work in about 1/2 hour.

I had read about salt on here so I asked about that. The guy who knows his fish told me it was a great thing to get, electrolytes and all that so I got some. 

He also offered me 10 gallons of their reserve water, (they hold 200 gallons reserve), and said to do a 25% water change with that.

Was this right, was this wrong, I do not know. I asked him if I should do the water change now and add the salt now as well as some TLC, which he remembered I bought from him the last time. (Good memory.)

He said, "I wouldn't normally recommend that but is there an urgency?"

To me, yes, there is. When I'm losing 1-3 fish a day, there is an urgency. Maybe I'll end up killing them all, I do not know. What I do know is, I don't know what else to do.

So...we will see what happens.

I added 5 tablespoons of salt. The instructions said 1/2 tablespoon per gallon for stressed goldfish and whole tablespoons per gallon for tropical fish. I don't have tropical fish nor do I have goldfish so since I have 40 gallons, I did 5. I do not know if this was right or wrong either.

I then added two capfuls of TLC.

This was all after I did the 25% water change.

If this fails and I end up killing everyone, (which at this rate, was going to happen anyway), I'll tear it all down and start all over.

Wish the filter would stop being so noisy with this skimmer.  Am I right in my guess that my connection is not long enough because the bobbing part is just BARELY under the surface but I cannot add any more water unless I overflow the tank.

Sigh...should have come here first. I read I could do a fishless cycle with plants. Dang it.

Sorry fish. I'm so sorry.

I am holding off on getting any new fish for the time being. The fish guy said that was the best idea, that I was, "not in a good place right now", and I should wait a month, (if what we just did today actually works).

He's going to let me get 10 gallons of water every single week from their reserves and said to do that for an entire month.

Thoughts? Did I just totally do everything wrong by doing this? I'm so desperate for a solution, I'm trying just about anything.

Thanks everyone.

Edit: Forgot to add, yes, their PH is lower, it's pretty neutral, about 7.1 so I may end up killing them all just with that. There is no ammonia, no nitrites and low nitrates. He said their water in reserves is mineral free, (meaning what I might find in tap water). Ok, have to work. Hope to everything I don't come home and find all dead fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You don't need a skimmer with a freshwater tank. What is TLC if it isn't tender loving care?

What Summer posted was correct. It was good that you got your plants in there and established before the fish. However, without any type of ammonia source the nitrogen cycle never starts. Ammonia starts everything.

I think using the water the fish store provides is not a bad idea per se, just don't think it is needed or will fix your problem. It may not be a good idea to do 100% water from them, however. It will alter your ph, kh, and gh more than likely. Just depends on what their water readings are. Just let your tank settle out. Adding in RO water, TLC (whatever that is), and salt is not letting stuff settle, IMO.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Really?

From this forum, a sticky, no less:

"_You should also do a section on the "silent cycle" aka using a lot of plants, since plants eat ammonia and nitrates, no nitrites would form or need to be dealt with. Using this method you can add fish right away without the wait, but have to keep up on the plant maintenance._" Posted by Rohkey 05/21/2011
__________________

"_I would like to add my .02 of the planted tank cycle.

By starting the tank with a mix of fast growing and slower growing plants right from the start it is normal to get no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes. because the plants consume the ammonia directly.

therefore there is no stress on the fish at any time. In fact the plants remove the carbon dioxide and return oxygen so if anything the fish feel little to no stress at all.

Because of chlorines, chloramines and what have you I recommend you stock the tank then wait one week before adding fish. that way the plants will be in control and the water conditioned for fish.

then add a very low (1 fish for a 10g tank) fish load and wait one week. During that time do not any food.

After the week stock up the tank and start very light feedings.

what results is the "silent" or phantom or whatever cycle where there are no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes but there can be an initial nitrate spike as substrates (for instance) may leach out nitrates as well as ammonia. The plants are consuming the ammonia and not using nitrate for their nitrogen.

then as the aerobic bacteria build and consume ammonia, the plants are forced to use nitrates for their nitrogen. So nitrates finally drop down after 3-4 weeks or so.

And that's the basic "silent" planted cycle using fish.

my .02_" Posted by beaslbob 05/26/2011

"Originally Posted by sondre View Post
Hi guys,

Quick question about "planted cycling" .

So i set everything up (put gravel,plants,decorations in,fill it with water ) and just wait a week without doing anything?
no need to do any tests / no need to add ammonia ???

Sorry if this sound stupid question,it just seems too easy  Want to make sure i got it right before i mess things up .

Reply: _"It's easy because plants are so good at filtering water and nature is designed to have fauna/flora balance each other out.

It's difficult because in order to achieve the silent cycle, you need to have a lot of plants.

Either way...I've read that you don't have to wait at all, but it probably would be good to wait a week as beasl suggested for the reason he mentioned along with letting the plants settle and grow a bit before the bioload is introduced. Ammonia isn't needed because you're not trying to cycle the tank but you could add a small amount. The plants will do most of the work and the small amount of bacteria that forms will form slowly over the next couple months"._ posted by Rohkey 06/08/2011
__________________

Again, I had/have plants in there from the beginning. I waited longer than a week before I added fish in there. 

This is from a sticky about fishless cycling on this very forum.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not sure I can break out what you're trying to say?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

1) how are your plants doing, how many plants and what size tank?

2) Killing the lights and suspending feeding will clear the tank.


Ps there is a reason I wait 1 week then add 1 fish and then don't add food for a week. the reason is to prevent cloudy water and dead fish.


my .02


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> 1) how are your plants doing, how many plants and what size tank?
> 
> 2) Killing the lights and suspending feeding will clear the tank.
> 
> ...


The plants are thriving. They look great. First time with a planted tank. Didn't do CO2...just put them in there and thought I'd learn as I went. Don't know why it's working but for the plants, it is working.

40 gallon tank and about 10 (maybe more) plants.

I will try the killing of the lights and not feeding for a bit.

Thanks!!!


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

beaslbob, I'm doing what you said and so far, the water is almost completely clear and I've gone a whole day without losing a fish.

Here's hoping it continues to work! Thank you so much for the suggestion!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Underwater City said:


> beaslbob, I'm doing what you said and so far, the water is almost completely clear and I've gone a whole day without losing a fish.
> 
> Here's hoping it continues to work! Thank you so much for the suggestion!


*r2

gld to hear and I hope you eventually can go several years without losing a fish.


FWIW I had a 10g planted I started and used way too much light. It clouded up very nicely so I use a water polisher filter and it cleared up. Then clouded up again. It only stayed clear when I reduced the lighting so I learned about killing the lights big time.

Plus on a more recent tank it was not clearing up untill I stopped the feeding.


Funny thing is that after this initial black out and stop feeding routine, usually the tank just stays clear but sometimes I do have to continue with less lights and feeding.

This even works for people who have big expensive reef tanks. With a lot of comments like "it couldn't be that simple".

still just my .02


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

beaslbob: Yes, I had way too much light at first, it was bright, I had it on way too long so I bought another bulb, (I had a blue and a 10,000k white one...took out the white one and bought another blue), and started turning it off at 12 hours.

It did start to clear but was still cloudy and the fish were still keeling over every single day.

I took your suggestion, left it off, didn't feed and when I woke up the next day, the water was much less cloudy.

Right now I have just one of the lights on, (not bright at all), and gave the fish the tiniest amount.

I actually think yesterday was day 2 and this is day 3. I wake up each morning with anxiety..."Please, fish, please be there...please be alive".

This morning, the four I have left are still there. One of them is the last of the "originals".

Three panda platys and a lone danio....but thus far, they are doing ok and the water is getting clearer and we're almost there.

To give you an idea of how bad the water was when I had that bright white bulb in there and had it on all day and most of the night, I couldn't see the front decorations.

When I changed out the bright white bulb, I was able to see the front decorations but still it was very cloudy.

Now I can see everything including the background poster taped to the back of the tank. What a difference.

It's still a tiny bit cloudy but it's getting clearer and most importantly, three days...no dead fish.

Yah, that sounds funny but when I was waking up and finding at least one, sometimes two, every day, it wasn't funny. I've learned my lesson about lighting...not too bright and don't leave it on so long.

You gave me the final piece of the puzzle by having me turn it off completely. I'm going to do another day of having it off completely when I do this next week's water change. Again, thank you! Finally, something that is working.

Now, a question: I am feeling bad for the lone danio...no mates. How long should I wait after it clears to add another danio? Should it be just one fish per week or can I get two at a time? I'm going to do what you say, get some fish, kill the lights, don't feed. Then when things adjust, (a week or two after that), I'll get a fish, (or couple or few), kill the lights, don't feed, let things settle....would you suggest that is the proper way to do it or do I not have to kill the lights each time I get new aquarium friends?

Edit: I wanted to summarize this should anyone happen across this doing a Google search with the same issues as this site helped me with things when I was doing Google searches, (before I joined):

I had WAY too much lighting; it was too bright and I had it on way too long.
I was adding in too many fish at once, (as someone told me further up, just 2 a week and I was doing about 6).

So from my experience thus far: Keep the lighting low or off for a few days, don't have it so bright, turn it off at least at 12 hours the rest of the time and don't add too many fish all at once...just a couple a week.

See, this is why I joined this forum. I kept finding answers for other questions I had when I would hit on this forum when I put in a search query and now I'm finding solutions for this big problem. Great forum.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I am glad that things have begun to get better for your tank. I hope that your fish deaths subside soon.

However, lighting does not cause the issues you have been having with your fish. It can affect the cloudiness if it is algae in the water - this would be a greenish tint. The white cloudiness has nothing to do with the light and will occur if the tank never even had a light on it - that type is a bacterial bloom usually and is common for a new tank or if too much fish have been added at once, as you have mentioned. Other causes can be improperly rinsed gravel or something that has been added that didn't get rinsed off well.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Underwater.

Glad things are going much better.

for lighting I use 6500K so you might consider that.

Or just keep using the light you have.

FWIW I hope the platys are a male and two females.

Danio are schooling fish so 1 or more then 4 but nothing in between. The reason is they will setup a pecking order and with more then 4 fish each fish in that order will be between more or less equally strong fish. With just 2 the stronger will dominate the weaker and the weaker probably die.

I think what you should do now is just let things be for a few weeks and let everything settle down. If you have male and female platys you should notice some babies soon.

then after things have ran for a few weeks add some more danios if you like.

Congrats.

my .02


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## alhays31808 (Aug 27, 2011)

all of my fish have ick


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

jrman: I DID have a problem with algae which is what prompted me to go start searching around the internets. I don't remember where I read it, but I finally found someone who said, in a post to someone, that too much light was more than likely the cause. That is what prompted me to go to the fish store and get a different light. I have two F39T5 bulbs. I had a mellow blue one and I had a white one at 10,000k. Way too bright. I switched it out for another mellow blue one and I got a white light at 6,000k. I tried the white light first with the original blue light I had and the algae was still a bit of a problem. I switched that out and now have both blue lights in there. Algae is gone.

Now, the cloudiness started on week 2 and never, ever went away. I didn't put any fish in there until week 6, one little Betta. I had him in there by himself for about 3-4 days. Water remained cloudy. Then I got more fish, (which as you pointed out was too many at once), and the water never stopped being cloudy. It got a teensy bit better and the algae was gone but it was pretty darn cloudy from week 2 on.

I then turned on the air stone and that cleared it up quite a bit, but still, it was cloudy.

I turned off the light and withheld feeding and have 4 fish in there...and it's still cloudy. Not like it was, it's almost clear but it's still cloudy. We are at the end of week 9, going to week 10. How long is it going to be cloudy? Granted, again, it is nothing like it was but it is not crystal clear. I can see through the tank, at long last. I can see the background, at long last. I can see everything, at long last. When you look from the front, it looks pretty good...still a bit cloudy but when you look in from the sides, you can see the cloud still sitting there, in the middle. 

Everything I read says it clears up in a day or two. Mine's been cloudy for 7 weeks, going on 8. I'm starting to think it will never be crystal clear. (And yah, I rinsed that gravel before I put it in.)

Today I changed the bio sponge in the filter and prayed. I'm anxious every time I do anything but that sponge needed to be changed. Came home from work, put everything down and, as I always do, ran over the to the tank and started looking for fish. All four there, WHEW! (I do this every single morning when I get up, too. This is supposed to be calming but right now the aquarium is stressing me out. I'm afraid to even put my hands in there half the time to fix a decoration I'm so afraid I'll "contaminate" the water.)

I'm going to stick with using the stores water for changes once a week for a month. I'm going to stick with leaving the light off for most of the day. (I have plants so I turned one of them on, today.) I'm going to start feeding every other day or very teensy, tiny amounts each day, (like a flake per fish), and I'm going to hold off getting many more fish for awhile. 

I'm just afraid that I'll forever have somewhat cloudy water.

beaslbob: So you think the danio is ok being by himself for that long? Do fish get lonely? Does that affect their health? I'm so afraid he's going to get lonely and die on me. I won't add more now but I was thinking that when I can add more, I'd add two danios. So you think I should do three so I have a total of 4 and then later, I can add a few more?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Underwater City said:


> jrman: I DID have a problem with algae which is what prompted me to go start searching around the internets. I don't remember where I read it, but I finally found someone who said, in a post to someone, that too much light was more than likely the cause. That is what prompted me to go to the fish store and get a different light. I have two F39T5 bulbs. I had a mellow blue one and I had a white one at 10,000k. Way too bright. I switched it out for another mellow blue one and I got a white light at 6,000k. I tried the white light first with the original blue light I had and the algae was still a bit of a problem. I switched that out and now have both blue lights in there. Algae is gone.
> 
> Now, the cloudiness started on week 2 and never, ever went away. I didn't put any fish in there until week 6, one little Betta. I had him in there by himself for about 3-4 days. Water remained cloudy. Then I got more fish, (which as you pointed out was too many at once), and the water never stopped being cloudy. It got a teensy bit better and the algae was gone but it was pretty darn cloudy from week 2 on.
> 
> ...


the danio will be fine by itself. When you add more ad at least 3


just let thing be for awhile


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## alhays31808 (Aug 27, 2011)

My Fish Has Ick!!!!!bad!!!!


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Alhays there is no need to post this in other's threads. You started your own thread and got advice, this was kind of rude to hijack the OPs thread with your problems.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

alhays31808 said:


> try the test strips, they might work better(i've never actually cycled or tested my aquarium tank and all of my fish are perfectly fine, except for the poor little cardinal tetra that keeps on getting bullied by my bigger cardinal tetra that's a little lopsided. don't know if that's a sign that he's getting old or not. will try to figure out how to post pictures in posts


Strips are very inaccurate, and you are having problems with ich in your tank and won't listen to advice so please do not give it.


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## alhays31808 (Aug 27, 2011)

sorry


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Welp, today is the 13th and I took beaslbob's advice about turning off the light and limiting feeding on the 7th.

Thus far, no dead fish. Huzzah!

Went yesterday to grab another 10 gallons from the store's reserves and will do another water change today. 

The water is still a tiny bit cloudy and the fish guy told me about a "fine" filter. Basically it's a cloth like material that you cut to size and wrap around the sponge in the filter case. Wondering if this will work. Any ideas on that?

I also just discovered I have a snail. Must have come in on one of the plants. The snail is reallllllllly small and the only reason I noticed it was because I was actually enjoying my fish yesterday, was staring at them while listening to music and saw something moving across the back wall of the tank, (now that I can see it), and realized, "A snail!"

I assume a snail is ok, I've never sought out snails in the store so know nothing about them.

Anyway, fish guy says to do have at least 50% of their water, (this being the second week with their water, today will be the "50%" - and to clarify what I mean by that: I did a 25% water change with their water last week and doing a 25% water change with their water this week = 50%) and then wait another week before trying more fish.

So, I will do the change today, cross fins and hope the fish stay alive and then am thinking by that time, a week from now, maybe I can get the three danios? Or should I wait even longer?

Last night I noticed they were having fun in the tank. The three platys were going around to the decorations and poking their little fish lips on them, eating algae I guess and the danio was having a ball in the bubbles from the air stone. So nice to see my fish happy, at long last.

In summary, today's questions are:

What do you think of the "fine" filter?

Would another week after this week's water change, with all fish doing well, be a good amount of time to consider getting three danios to add in or should the wait be longer?

Thanks for all the help thus far.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

By the way, thought I'd share some photos that I took, (badly), to show you the tank and what's in it.

Because of lighting issues, (day time doesn't help), the water looks much cloudier in the photos than it actually is. And the Platys were uncooperative. They refused to pose but the second I put the camera down, they would come over to the part of the tank I was looking in to and ask, "What's up?"

Again, these are not good but just an idea:









































































By the way, you may notice the water level looks slanted in the full tank view. Yes. Because the house I live in apparently is slanting. It's really old. Just hope it doesn't crash over while I'm renting it.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

Photos are that bad, huh?

Anyway, I think this thread is pretty much done.

It's been over a week since I've had any fish deaths and the water is juuuuuust about crystal clear.

Between turning the air stone back on and taking beaslbob's advice, I think the problem is finally solved.

The idiot who told me to turn off the air stone was not a fish store person nor anyone on a fish forum. It came from someone who insisted that everything I knew about fish was wrong.

The too much lighting came from a fish store guy at a national chain, (the one where I got my tank), and I've surmised that he knows his plants well, very well, but he doesn't know much about fish.

So, to all the dead fish: I'm sorry. I really am. I wish I would have left the air stone on like I thought and wanted to do in the first place and I wish I would have gone with the dimmer lights like I wanted and tried to get in the first place. 

Sometimes we may not know all the technical language and we may not be "experts" on the topic, but sometimes, we just know the right thing to do and we should do that, regardless. If it doesn't work, THEN we can start asking advice.

Air stone and lighting...two simple things but tragic for too many fish.

And of course, just a few fish at a time. And if some die, you don't run right out and replace them along with the "new" fish you were going to get at that time.

Oh and last: chemicals...ya, maybe not so much other than perhaps a water conditioner. All I know is chemicals killed my sweet little betta. 

So now we move on. Now I wait a little bit and then I go get three danios. Then I wait a bit and go save another betta from a life of hell in a bowl. Then I wait a little bit and go get some panda corys.

From there, I may or may not try it again with khuli loaches and a small pleco.

beaslbob, I cannot thank you enough. The air stone was the main changer but your idea to shut the lights out and hold off on the feeding for a few days was the final piece of the puzzle.

I look at my tank now and am starting to get happy instead of approaching it with dread. 

Hurray! :fish bowl-3:


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Good to hear.


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

Tank looks good, glad things have worked out for you.

Not that it matter (may help you get high toxic levels down i guess)but I picked up on an error you made a couple of posts back. If you do a 25% PWC then do another 25% PWC, you have not removed 50% of what ever. You would have removed 1/3......I think....for ease of math lets say your nitrate was 100. If you do a 25% PWC you would expect it to go down to 75. If you did another 25% it wouldn't go down to 50. Can you get what I'm saying?? Like I said it doesn't really matter just thought I would point it out if you need to remove or dilute anything in the future.

Good luck with it and keep up the good work.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> Overfeeding is the cause of many aquarium woes.


I'm pretty sure I did not overfeed my fish. I was actually concerned at one point that I was underfeeding them until I read they could go a week without food. But I gave them barely anything. I read somewhere that their stomachs are about the size of their eyeballs so I always keep that in mind.



> Filter bags will clear the water up a bit by catching things, but you shouldn't need it if everything is running right.


It's not a bag, it's a piece of cloth, almost looks like felt. It comes in a sheet and you cut it to match the size of the bio sponge, wrap it lightly around the bio sponge and put that back in the filter.



> If you don't dip your plants in something to kill the snails you will have snails in your tank. They will multiply. Personally, I like snails. If you have a million of them it means you're over feeding. If not, you have just a few and they keep things a little cleaner.


Well cool! Free animal! I don't mind the snail as long as they won't eat all my plants.



> 40%+/-10% of the water every other week should be fine. Opinions will vary from beaslebob who sets his tanks up to never need water changes, to people who do 80% weekly (often for fertilizer control).


I was doing 20-25% water changes just to get rid of the cloudiness, nothing more. In the future, I don't plan to change once a week but maybe once every two weeks.



> I'm a fan of test kits. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH if you want it.
> If you're reading ammonia or nitrite then the tank either isn't done cycling, or something is wrong. With the nitrate, as long as it isn't above 40 right before your water change don't worry about it (opinions may vary as to the exact number here, 20 would be a more conservative target). With pH so long as it's between 5.5 and 8.5 don't worry about it so long as it is stable. This is if you even test it at all. I only test when I'm setting up a tank, curious, or something is wrong.


As I said in the beginning, I have an API Master Test Kit and have been a testing fiend while going through this. My readings were always the same. My ammonia was at 0 or .25, depending on what you thought the color was...it really IS open to interpretation because the yellow and light, light green are very close. My nitrites were 0 and my nitrates were under 5ppm.

My PH is a little different now that I'm using the fish store reserve water but it's about 7.2 whereas with my water, it was between 7.4-7.6. The very first time I ever put water in there, (way back in September), I did a test after a few days and the PH was really high. I got a PH lower and put that in there according to directions. I never had to use it again.



> Seems like a reasonable time to add a couple danios. If you had a test kit you'd know for sure (ammonia and nitrite at zero). In the future if you're looking for other fish to add, you should aim to have 2+ female platys for every 1 male.


Hurray about the danios. I can't wait!



> While your problem went away with the light dropping, I don't think that was the cause. More likely ammonia in the water due to either being a new tank, or overfeeding.


Again, I did not have high ammonia. As stated above, it was 0 or it could have been .25 but again, the colors are so close that one could think it was either or. But it was never above .25 when I started testing and continually testing. The ammonia was never the issue.

What I know is that the tank was cloudy from week 2 on. No matter what I did, water changes, chemicals, etc, the water stayed cloudy. BAD cloudy. It wasn't until I turned the air stone back on that it started to clear, drastically. I'm talking from one day to the next, there was a significant difference. When I changed the light bulb from the bright white to the lower blue, (having two blue bulbs in by that time), and turned it off at 12 hours or less, the algae stopped being a problem. When I turned it off completely, the water got really clear. It's still not 100% crystal clear but I'd say it's about 97% clear. We are on week....11 now?

For 9 weeks that water was cloudy, really cloudy, but the test kits showed no ammonia, (or .25 depending on color interpretation), no nitrites and under 5ppm nitrates. Because of those readings, I could not understand what to do next. Hence, the reason I came here.

Even when I over did it with the fish, my ammonia was never higher than .25, (depending on interpretation, as it could have remained 0 but for sure never higher than .25).

So, all I know is the air stone made a huge difference and the lighting change took care of the algae and cutting out the lights cleared the water even more. Reading staying the same with exception of now my PH is a little lower since I'm using fish store reserve water. 

Anyway, they are still going. One of the platys I have had almost this entire time since I started adding fish, (he was the second group I added..I had the betta first for a few days then got three platys and he has lived through EVERYTHING I've done to that tank!), so I'm feeling much more confident now.

I will get three danios in a few days and then wait a week or two and get three corys. Then I'll wait a week or two and get a betta.

Eventually I want to get cardinals again but I know, from experience, poor cardinals, that they are NOT hardy fish so everything has to be perfect in that tank before I ever get them again.

Things are now well, the fish are now happy, I have learned from this forum and this thread and I thank you all for the advice.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, I think you may have a bad ammonia test kit or possibly something in the directions you're not doing, although a really easy test. There is NO WAY with as many fish as you had that your ammonia could remain so low. It is just not possible. If that is the post-water change reading, that is different.

I just helped someone start a tank this past weekend. Even with the 15 plants in this 75g tank, the 4 livebearer fish that were in there have already driven the ammonia to 1ppm and the fish still haven't been fed.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Well, I think you may have a bad ammonia test kit or possibly something in the directions you're not doing, although a really easy test. There is NO WAY with as many fish as you had that your ammonia could remain so low. It is just not possible. If that is the post-water change reading, that is different.
> 
> I just helped someone start a tank this past weekend. Even with the 15 plants in this 75g tank, the 4 livebearer fish that were in there have already driven the ammonia to 1ppm and the fish still haven't been fed.


Gee I knew there was a reason I don't add fish for the first week. Hopefully things will be fine.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Gee I knew there was a reason I don't add fish for the first week. Hopefully things will be fine.
> 
> 
> my .02


Most kids probably don't have your patience.


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## Underwater City (Nov 6, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> Air stone makes sense. The bacteria that consume ammonia, and break down other organics, are generally aerobic. If the water oxygen level is too low they can't do that. Obviously anaerobic water conditions aren't too good for the livestock either.


It has to have been the answer. The tank was badly cloudy for weeks and weeks but then I turn on the air stone and miraculously, within 24 hours, the tank was 75% cleared up. 



> If you're up for an experiment you might try putting one of the white bulbs back in. If you get another bacterial bloom then you know it was the cause. When it happens, pull the light. Leave the water aerating the entire time to be sure that wasn't the issue. Then again, I'm the guy that intentionally starves my plants of different nutrients to see what they look like so I know in the future.
> An airstone should be a mandatory purchase for new people with fish tanks.


Oh goodness no. Not right now. I'm too chicken to do much of anything to this tank now that things are on the right track. Still a teensy bit cloudy but I'm hopeful that in time, it will be clear.

I'm not sure I want to put that white light back in there because I had algae pretty bad until I swapped that out. Maybe I'll do it WAY in the future. I feel bad enough for what I've put these fish through, especially that original platy. That boy has withstood so much.

Oh and yes, the testing was done AFTER water changes. I would wait about 2-3 hours after a water change, run a test. I would sometimes test again right away just to confirm and other times I'd do it again the next day and then another the day after that. But I did not do testing right before a water change.

In about three days or so, I'm going to get three more glofish danios and we'll see what happens.

Oh and yes about the air stone. I want to smack the person who told me I would "over oxygenate" the tank. I'm really ticked off about that. All that drama...for what?! And my poor betta....sigh.


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