# First Aquarium



## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi,

I'm not only new to the forum, but have just gotten my first aquarium ever. I chose to cycle the aquarium with fish, so on Saturday I bought 5 neon tetras. I'll have lots of questions as I go along, but the first question is about one of my tetras. I noticed yesterday the half of one of the tetra's tail was missing, and this morning the rest of it? Does this mean that one of the other tetra's must have attacked him? If that is the case, is that unusual for same species that are know to get along well in a community tank? Also, could the fish heal or is this trouble? Thanks in advance.

Kevin.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Can you give more specifics on your tank? Size, filtration, etc..

I've never seen Neons tail nip. They may, just never seen it. I have about 60 Cardinal Tetras (almost the same as Neons) and none of them do it either. 

Sounds like it could be tail rot. This can be healed naturally with frequent water changes.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi Ben,

I have a 60 gallon tank that I just got last week. I filled it up on Thursday and put in all the decorations. Two small real plants and 3 or 4 decorations and of course gravel. I have the filter and heater installed as well that night. I used an API master test kit, and on saturday night i had a zero reading for amonia, nitrite, and nitrates. but my ph was high at 7.6. I adding ph down that night but haven't re-tested yet.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Sorry, I didn't mention specifics on the filter. I have the Marineland Emperor 400


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

With a fish in cycle you need to be active on your test readings water parameters


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

I have a question about water changes. I have a 60 gallon tank, so I plan on doing about a 10-15 gallon water change. My question is about putting new water back in. Do I have to condition the new water at all or can I just fill the tank back up with tap water since its a small amount of water that I'm changing? I ask because I have read online somewhere that you are suppose to prepare the water first, but I'm not sure if thats the norm. Thanks in advance.

Kevin


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Always use conditioner,as most neutralise chlorine/chloramine and remove heavy metals found in tap.Chlorine does evaporate,but chloramine does not. An internet check of your municipal water supplier will tell you how they treat yours.Eitherway the chlorine will kill your bacteria so still should treat.Try getting replacement water as close as possible to tank temp also.You need to test for ammonia on a regular basis(daily) as this will rise to deadly levels quickly(part of cycling).Just changing x amount may not work well as without knowing levels you may not be removing enough to maintain safe levels.Neons are pretty sensative,so any signs of distress should be a strong indicator.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I do have conditioner and will we it and fill tank back up with similar water temp. But can i put water right back in tank or do I have to wait ? Almos like cycling new water first?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi Kevin,

If you are using Prime water conditioner, here's what you should do:

Method 1: adding conditioned water to tank (PREFERRED METHOD)
It's better to prepare your water first (e.g., in a bucket) with water conditioner prior to adding to the tank. In this case you just need to dose the water you're adding for the volume you are adding to the tank.

OR

Method 2: adding unconditioned water to tank
PRIOR to adding unconditioned water to your tank, you should add enough Prime *for the entire tank volume* to the main tank before adding the unconditioned water. This method wastes water conditioner so is not preferred. 

-Zeke


QUOTE=kcas0772;212269]I have a question about water changes. I have a 60 gallon tank, so I plan on doing about a 10-15 gallon water change. My question is about putting new water back in. Do I have to condition the new water at all or can I just fill the tank back up with tap water since its a small amount of water that I'm changing? I ask because I have read online somewhere that you are suppose to prepare the water first, but I'm not sure if thats the norm. Thanks in advance.

Kevin[/QUOTE]


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Ok great, method 1 sounds easy enough. Thanks for the help...

FYI, i ended up losing the fish that lost his tail. Something must have been up seems strange that he lost his tail then within 2 days died. He also always stayed away from the other 4 tetras. He actually was still alive, but he was totally lifeless. He was just floating around the tank, and would end up against the filter, being sucked against it and unable to swim away from it. I knew there was no chance so I put him out of his misery.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah -- sometimes the fish you get from the store are already in bad shape to begin with. Often there's not much you can do if that happens. 

I lost 2 boesemani rainbows (expensive fish!) this past week as they came with a fungal infection which just killed them in a few days. Just try to make sure you get clean fish from the store and that will mitigate the risk of getting sick fish.

-Zeke


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## rtmaston (Jul 14, 2012)

I have a couple of neons in with other fish and one of mine neon has a bite out of it tail.i cycled mine with 4 fish and a couple live plants.keep your water tested ever few days.i did a water change every week and still do that today.it will take a couple months to cycle.try not to over feed its easy to do.keep us updated.good luck and any questions just ask.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

kcas - welcome to the forum!

I'm afraid that 4 neon tetras in a 60 gallon tank will not cycle it very effectively, as the neons are so small their bio-load (ammonia generating capability) is minimal.

What are you planning on stocking the tank with, as far as fish and/or other critters like shrimp, snails, etc.?

As jrman83 stated, regular water changes are necessary. And as coralbandit mentioned, proper tap water dechlorination (a.k.a. tap water conditioning) is needed to add the water to the tank safely. Chlorine and chloramine are toxic to fish.

Don't use the pH buffers. They're loaded with phosphates and really don't do much to help, especially when you consider that most aquarium fish species are very adaptable and can adjust to a wide range of pH values. IMO, all you should be adding to the tank is water conditioner (dechlorinator) and maybe a liquid plant food like API LeafZone, SeaChem Flourish/SeaChem Excel, or something like that.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm planning on adding various tropical fish, although not sure yet what and when the next fish will be, I'll research along the way to keep learning. I was thinking of possibly danios. Any thoughts?

Curious, you mentioned just 4 tetras woudln't be enough to cycle. I assumed even with NO fish it will take quite a bit of time, and the tetras I added as what I thought was a good start if you wanted to cycle with fish. Do you think there is something else I should do to help the cycling process? 

I;ve been testing the water every other day, and right now my levels havent changed at all after the first week. My amonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all zero. I test with the API master kit.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

The point is that the aquarium will take *forever* to cycle with just tetras as they produce very very little waste.

You will need need to add some higher bioload fish (e.g., a bristlenose pleco or two) to speed the cycling process. In addition to increasing bioload, it would also help if you also seeded the aquarium with beneficial bacteria like SafeStart. Or add in used filter media from a friend. 

Just to give you an idea of what you're in for: with three 2-3" cichlids it took me about 10 days to cycle with safestart (assuming you have a good batch of it, it is very temperature sensitive). But your mileage may vary. 

Please keep us posted on what you plan to do.

-Zeke




kcas0772 said:


> I'm planning on adding various tropical fish, although not sure yet what and when the next fish will be, I'll research along the way to keep learning. I was thinking of possibly danios. Any thoughts?
> 
> Curious, you mentioned just 4 tetras woudln't be enough to cycle. I assumed even with NO fish it will take quite a bit of time, and the tetras I added as what I thought was a good start if you wanted to cycle with fish. Do you think there is something else I should do to help the cycling process?
> 
> I;ve been testing the water every other day, and right now my levels havent changed at all after the first week. My amonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all zero. I test with the API master kit.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks Zeke. That's leads me to a question about cycling that confuses me. For what I've learned, the tank is finished cycling when the amonia and nitrite levels are zero, and there is a SMALL amount of nitrates present, but that the amonia and nitrite levels are the ones that really matter. SInce I first filled my tank a week ago, my amonia and nitrite levels have been zero. However, my nitrates are still around zero as well. With that being said, am I fine as is? Or is the nitrate level being so low a problem? Is that where your recommendation of Safestart comes from? Seems like Nitrates are my only concern right now.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi,

For your aquarium to be viable in the medium-term and in the long-term you NEED to build up the beneficial bacteria to break down ammonia into nitrite as well as beneficial bacteria to break nitrite into nitrate. This is called 'biological filtration' and is critical for the health of any aquarium.

Good question about the nitrates. If I had to guess I'd say the nitrates in your tank are probably from your tap water itself, not from your fish's waste. There's no way your tank could've cycled already with so little waste. Nitrates don't become a problem until you get to 30-40ppm at which point it becomes toxic to fish. Ammonia is much more toxic than nitrate to fish (> 1ppm is bad). Nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia (even trace amounts 0.25-0.5ppm are toxic). That said, you do need to have a certain amount of ammonia (from waste) in the tank (followed by nitrite) for cycling to take place. It's just the way it works.

You should try testing your tap water to see whether it has nitrates in it. I will bet it might! That's a fairly common issue, probably not a problem unless they are extremely high.

You should add more fish with heavier bioload than these neons (preferably a hardy fish) + add safe start and you should be good to go. Per the instructions, don't do any water changes after adding safestart for about 2 weeks, and monitor ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily or even twice a day if you have time. You should first see the ammonia level creep up, then nitrite level creep up as ammonia level drops down, then nitrate level creep up as nitrite drops down. Cycling will be done when ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate is some value > 0, e.g., 10-20ppm 

After your aquarium is cycled, you should only have to worry about nitrate levels (but should still test for nitrite and ammonia periodically just in case there's a problem with your biological filtration). Water changes (and aquatic plants) should then bring the nitrate levels down.

If you add more fish down the road AFTER the aquarium is cycled, you may get a 'mini cycle' during which period there may be transient spike in ammonia and nitrite as the biological bacteria takes some time to colonize further to meet the increasing bioload demand. Just something to be aware of.

Finally, during maintenance down the road (much later) do not clean your filter media with chlorinated water, only use tank water or treated (dechlorinated) water as the chlorine in tap water will KILL your beneficial bacteria and then the tank would have to cycle all over again!

Hope these tips help,

-Zeke









kcas0772 said:


> Thanks Zeke. That's leads me to a question about cycling that confuses me. For what I've learned, the tank is finished cycling when the amonia and nitrite levels are zero, and there is a SMALL amount of nitrates present, but that the amonia and nitrite levels are the ones that really matter. SInce I first filled my tank a week ago, my amonia and nitrite levels have been zero. However, my nitrates are still around zero as well. With that being said, am I fine as is? Or is the nitrate level being so low a problem? Is that where your recommendation of Safestart comes from? Seems like Nitrates are my only concern right now.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

The nitrogen cycle in a nutshell is this: Fish poo, poo decomposes, generates ammonia. Nitrifying bacteria turn ammonia into nitrite, then other bacteria turn nitrite into nitrate.

Without enough ammonia being generated, bacteria will never colonize your tank because they have nothing to feed on. Increase your bio load slowly (maybe 2-3 fish per week) and your bacteria colonies will multiply slowly to keep pace with the increased ammonia being generated.

The immediate threat, however, is that your tank is still hostile, as shown by the one tetra's death. Did you dechlorinate the water when you initially filled the tank? Chlorine is still present if you didn't, and it is probably the culprit of your fish's death. Look for signs that the other fish are irritated like flashing (when the fish bounces off objects as if it's scratching itself), red inflamed gills, milky white on the body, and most importantly rotting fins.

I wouldn't advise using Tetra SafeStart or any other bacteria supplements *yet* because you have no ammonia to keep the bacteria alive. Increase your bio-load, then look into TSS if you still want to. With so few fish in such a big tank, I'd say you don't have anything to worry about though.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi, I just wanted to give an update on my "fish in" cycyling and follow up with a question. It's been a month now exactly since I started running my tank. It's 60 gallons, using freshwater fish. I started out in week one with 5 neon tetras, then approximately a week later added a bristlenose pleco, then another week 5 zebra danios. Anyway, i would say about 2 weeks ago the amonia started climbing as expected. I would say about a week ago the nitrite started climbing. What I'm confused about is that I was thinking that the nitrites would cause the amonia to go all the way down, THEN start to see nitrates. However, right now, there is still high amonia, although it HAS come down some. The nitrites are VERY high, but I'm surprised to find that my NITRATES have started to go up. I thought it would be one at a time (Nitrites bring amonia down, THEN nitrates bring nitrites down, etc.) 

So right now, my amonia is still a little high, probably at least .25, my NITRITES are OFF the chart, and my nitrates I'd say are about 5. Is this nomal to see the nitrates climb when there is still amonia readings? Thanks in advance for any help.

Kevin


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

kcas0772 said:


> So right now, my amonia is still a little high, probably at least .25, my NITRITES are OFF the chart, and my nitrates I'd say are about 5. Is this nomal to see the nitrates climb when there is still amonia readings? Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Kevin


With fish in cycling you must consider the fish first(before your cycle).Therefore I would recommend a 50% water change and try to get a accurate reading on your nitrItes.The presence of nitrAte is a good thing but I wouldn't worry about "disturbing "cycle as much as well being of fish.
When cycling "fish in" you can't control how the nutrients(amm,trItes,and trAtes)grow.So I don't think your tank is in trouble, the cycle seems to be progessing well.Lower your nitrItes for the fish though.


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## kcas0772 (Dec 29, 2012)

Is there a norm for determining how much time is left to complete the cycle once Nitrates start to show, or can it be just as long as any other part of the cycle?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You should be close.Possibly 1 week maybe 2.Having nitrAtes showing would indicate you are close to complete.Telling time is tough as you can't raise level of ammonia to speed it up(or check how quick ammonia is converted) with "fish in",but once you're 0 nitrItes you should be in the clear.Raising bio load slowly after that and keeping nitrAtes to 40 or below.


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