# Update To My Goldfish Tank Emergency...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

We performed a 50% water change again today. The Chocolate Fantail in question, with the massive sore on his rear end, has developed white areas all over the bruise, and now white spots have formed on the tips of his fins. His behavior is also steadily spiraling downward, and I need to know what to treat this tank with now -- the water changes don't appear to be working...

Attached are images of the fish in question...

These are the best we are getting of snapping images of the sore in back; you can make out the red ring around the white area now, and this fish continues to refuse to eat...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

It does not look good. I really don't know. I'm inclined to say it's a job for antibiotics, but which antibiotics? I'm equally inclined to say you shouldn't use them, as every time we guess and miss on whether it's gram positive or gram negative as an infection, we risk contributing to the super-bug phenomenon.
I don't know whether that fish can be saved, as that is an ugly infection.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I didn't think he could be saved either, and it doesn't look promising, but I am inclined to go out today and try one last route -- which would be any of these meds:

*Kanamycin
Prazi Pro
Maraycin/Maraycin II
Jungle Fungus Clear Tablets
API EM Erythromycin*

Any thoughts?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Here are some more general shots of the tank inhabitants that we have come to grow and love...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> It does not look good. I really don't know. I'm inclined to say it's a job for antibiotics, but which antibiotics? I'm equally inclined to say you shouldn't use them, as every time we guess and miss on whether it's gram positive or gram negative as an infection, we risk contributing to the super-bug phenomenon.
> I don't know whether that fish can be saved, as that is an ugly infection.


Navigator,

I was advised that because we don't know whether this is a gram negative or gram positive infection, I can go out and get Kordon's MARACYN and MARACYN II as this should cover both, and begin treatment immediately. Do you concur that this may be a course at this point?

As far as you stating "this is an ugly infection," you can't even see the worst of it through computer pictures -- it's far more horrifying in person...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

maybe its best to euthanize the poor thing?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> maybe its best to euthanize the poor thing?


Absolutely not -- he is still trying to fight and we're not giving up on him.

I'm running out now to get him the Maracyn and Maracyn II powdered meds and see if that makes any difference before it's truly too late...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

maybe you should wait for navigator to reply before dosing with meds


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

It doesn't matter.

I came back with the meds and started putting them in the tank and he pretty much died in front of me. He is taking his last breaths now.

I am SO ANGRY that a new fish we introduced to the tank attacked this one I pretty much raised since he was small to the point he killed him.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss.  one of my adult bristlenoses randomly died yesterday so I know how u feel. Least u can say u gave him the best life n done all u could when he needed you.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks zero. Sorry for your loss, as well.

How long did you have your brittlenose? What happened?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Too bad - sorry it played out that way. Once you get an ulcer like that...

Prazi-pro would have been a big mistake - it's a great dewormer, but that was no worm. It wasn't fungus either.
You can kill a fish by shotgunning meds...
I think you made the right choice, and it was a good try. 

Where I live, aquarium store antibiotics are illegal without a vet's prescription. One of my biggest surprises as a hobbyist has been that I lose fewer fish to diseases since that law than I must have been losing to guessing at meds before. It's an imperfect science for those of us who aren't scientists...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> Too bad - sorry it played out that way. Once you get an ulcer like that...


Thanks Navigator; my wife and I sure have been sad today with the loss. The tank is not the same. 



> Prazi-pro would have been a big mistake - it's a great dewormer, but that was no worm. It wasn't fungus either.


Wow -- good to know. Glad we didn't go with that. If this wasn't fungus or a worm, do you think it was strictly a bacterial ulcer? Our Red Cap Oranda was affected by the aggressive fish who caused these injuries as well, and her sores are getting red and worse in her backside too...should I continue the Malacyn treatment for this other fish?



> You can kill a fish by shotgunning meds...


What do you mean?



> I think you made the right choice, and it was a good try.


Thanks...

But would you recommend continuing to dose with the meds I began today, being that the other Red Cap has the same red sore in back? 



> Where I live, aquarium store antibiotics are illegal without a vet's prescription.


Really? 



> One of my biggest surprises as a hobbyist has been that I lose fewer fish to diseases since that law than I must have been losing to guessing at meds before. It's an imperfect science for those of us who aren't scientists...


So when you stopped using meds because you couldn't get an antibiotic or prescription, you actually lost _fewer_ fish than when you guessed at putting meds in the tank? Have you lost many fish in your tenure as a hobbyist?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Thanks zero. Sorry for your loss, as well.
> 
> How long did you have your brittlenose? What happened?



thanks.

ive had him for a few months, he was 6 inches when i got him....have no idea what happened, he was sucking on the glass saturday night then my boyfriend went in to feed the fish on sunday and he was laying on his back dead! when i got him out i examined him and he had no nipped fins no bites or anything! the fish in the tank are all ok so i really have no idea!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I know the statement about meds sounds weird, but I have been a hobbyist for (gulp) 45 years, and have run a multitank set-up for 20 plus years. I breed fish as my version of the hobby, and yes, I have lost quite a few over the years. At one point, I made a good chunk of my income from fish, and had 70 tanks running to do that with. The opportunities to learn from disasters were endless!

A lot of aquarium antibiotics sit on the shelf for a long time, and are expired. They aren't subject to the controls human use drugs are. Plus, by 'shotgunning' I mean throwing in meds hoping to hit the target. Every medication is a poison to something - that's how they work. You want to kill the dangerous bacteria or pathogen without killing its well-loved host, but the treatment is always a physical stress. Just like with us, the wrong meds or a wrong combination of medications interacting can easily kill the patient. You have to know what you are doing, and so few of us do really, when it comes to antibiotic use.

Once you start an antibiotic, you have to do the full course - again, just like us. A potentially mutant bacterium doesn't care if the host is dead - it has its own life to live and that is not good for us or the fish. Whatever this pathogen is, it has taken advantage of the wounds caused by the new fish to blossom, and it is established now. It needs to be disestablished...

If you had used prazi, it would have been tough on the fish as its guts would be cleaned out and its intestinal fauna disrupted. I love that med and used it on some wild caught mollies just last week, but I am aware of how much of a shock it is for the fish (it's a bigger shock to tapeworms though). Other meds irritate the skin, making the fish produce immune system mucous/slime in larger quanties, some disrupt the DNA of parasites, etc. Throw them all in at once and it must be like getting zapped from all directions for the poor fish. Target them carefully and it's no worse for them than for us when we get the right inconvenient treatment.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't have nearly as much experience as navigator black but I have similar point of view. Not saying meds can't be useful but probably more fish are killed by them than saved. If the infection your fish had was caused by being attacked and the other fish look healthy I would not treat the whole tank.



navigator black said:


> Once you start an antibiotic, you have to do the full course - again, just like us. A potentially mutant bacterium doesn't care if the host is dead - it has its own life to live and that is not good for us or the fish. Whatever this pathogen is, it has taken advantage of the wounds caused by the new fish to blossom, and it is established now. It needs to be disestablished...


This was certainly the traditional view for years but they (the human medical profession) now seem to be saying that super bugs have been caused by over use of antibiotics rather than people who don't take the full course. Younger doctors and scientists are now now leaning toward using antibiotics for as short a time as possible. I guess the idea is that you will never get rid of all the bacteria and the less time you use antibiotics for the better for you and the less chance of creating a super bacteria. Of course I am not a doctor or a scientist, I'm just repeating what I have been told, read or saw on TV. It is a subject I find interesting though having had bad experiences with antibiotics and my own health.

Sorry for your loss. Some fish we learn to love for their particular personalities and habits, they become real pets that you interact with. I have both 'pet' fish and ones that are just there to swim around and look pretty. Not that I want any of them to die you can always buy another pretty fish but a 'pet' fish is harder to replace.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> thanks.
> 
> ive had him for a few months, he was 6 inches when i got him....have no idea what happened, he was sucking on the glass saturday night then my boyfriend went in to feed the fish on sunday and he was laying on his back dead! when i got him out i examined him and he had no nipped fins no bites or anything! the fish in the tank are all ok so i really have no idea!


Awww...so sorry.

I used to keep tropicals many years ago when I was young, and we always lost fish -- I can recall waking up to find dead Angels that were attacked by Gouramis I had in the tank, all their fins and barbs missing, as well as Elephant Noses that would jump out of the tank etc etc...it's so hard to get attached to these guys and lose them. You're lucky you only had your guy for a few months -- we had our goldfish for about two years and he was growing and doing fine until we introduced this new small Red Cap Oranda to the tank and he attacked and killed him. THAT is what makes me so mad.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> I know the statement about meds sounds weird, but I have been a hobbyist for (gulp) 45 years, and have run a multitank set-up for 20 plus years. I breed fish as my version of the hobby, and yes, I have lost quite a few over the years. At one point, I made a good chunk of my income from fish, and had 70 tanks running to do that with. The opportunities to learn from disasters were endless!
> 
> A lot of aquarium antibiotics sit on the shelf for a long time, and are expired. They aren't subject to the controls human use drugs are. Plus, by 'shotgunning' I mean throwing in meds hoping to hit the target. Every medication is a poison to something - that's how they work. You want to kill the dangerous bacteria or pathogen without killing its well-loved host, but the treatment is always a physical stress. Just like with us, the wrong meds or a wrong combination of medications interacting can easily kill the patient. You have to know what you are doing, and so few of us do really, when it comes to antibiotic use.


I see. I suppose that makes sense. 



> Once you start an antibiotic, you have to do the full course - again, just like us. A potentially mutant bacterium doesn't care if the host is dead - it has its own life to live and that is not good for us or the fish. Whatever this pathogen is, it has taken advantage of the wounds caused by the new fish to blossom, and it is established now. It needs to be disestablished...


Okay, but here's the thing -- when this Chocolate Fantail we just lost began showing symptoms of the ulcer we began treating with API's Melafix. When that seemed to be deteriorating the water quality while not helping the fish seemingly, we stopped cold turkey after only a couple of days -- maybe not even. We did 50% water changes, then went back to dosing the Melafix at half recommended strength, then back to water changes...then just gave up on the Melafix (so it wasn't dosed even close to what it should have been for its full course)...

Now, we started the Maracyn and we're on the second day of it...but that is after this unestablished Melafix course, and I am uncertain if we should now continue this to the end. The Red Cap still has the ulcer in back, but according to my wife, on this second day of treatment, it appears to be getting a bit better (have not confirmed this). There is also another fish in this tank -- a small, young Black and Gold Moor, and I am wondering if it is okay to treat the entire tank with the Macaryn even though it's only one fish that has the bacterial infection. 

Should I continue on with the Macaryn to the end of its five day course?



> If you had used prazi, it would have been tough on the fish as its guts would be cleaned out and its intestinal fauna disrupted. I love that med and used it on some wild caught mollies just last week, but I am aware of how much of a shock it is for the fish (it's a bigger shock to tapeworms though). Other meds irritate the skin, making the fish produce immune system mucous/slime in larger quanties, some disrupt the DNA of parasites, etc.





> Target them carefully and it's no worse for them than for us when we get the right inconvenient treatment.


I'm not certain what that last statement means...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

snail said:


> I don't have nearly as much experience as navigator black but I have similar point of view. Not saying meds can't be useful but probably more fish are killed by them than saved.


Really? Meds have been literally known to _kill_ fish? Well, I suppose if there was an "overdose" as it is with humans, but if the medicine is dispensed right, they can still be fatal? 



> If the infection your fish had was caused by being attacked and the other fish look healthy I would not treat the whole tank.


Okay, here's the situation: TWO fish in this tank were attacked by the Red Cap that we have isolated, a bigger Red Cap and the Chocolate Fantail (which just died yesterday). This aggressive Red Cap didn't attack the Black Moor for some reason. Both the Chocolate Fantail and Red Cap exhibited the red, swollen anal ulcers at the same time, from the attacks and injuries, but the Chocolate's turned into a white, inflamed horror that eventually killed him. Now, the other affected fish, the Red Cap Oranda, has the red, swollen ulcer in back too but it doesn't seem to be as inflamed or infected as the Chocolate's was -- and there are no signs of the white outbreak yet. That's why I began treating with the Macaryn and will continue dosing, because hopefully we got to this ulcer in time this time around...

So, being that there are only two fish in my 60 gallon now -- the injured Red Cap Oranda and the healthy Black Moor -- is it really necessary to remove the injured Red Cap instead of treating the whole tank? I have begun treating the whole tank since yesterday anyway, and now it's the second day of Macaryn dosing; do you not think the Black Moor (the only other fish in with the sick one) will be able to tolerate the medicine?



> This was certainly the traditional view for years but they (the human medical profession) now seem to be saying that super bugs have been caused by over use of antibiotics rather than people who don't take the full course. Younger doctors and scientists are now now leaning toward using antibiotics for as short a time as possible. I guess the idea is that you will never get rid of all the bacteria and the less time you use antibiotics for the better for you and the less chance of creating a super bacteria. Of course I am not a doctor or a scientist, I'm just repeating what I have been told, read or saw on TV. It is a subject I find interesting though having had bad experiences with antibiotics and my own health.


It's just so weird, because I can't imagine a super-bug being created just by not following a course of antibiotics till the end...that seems odd to me. Of course, I am not in the medical or science field...



> Sorry for your loss. Some fish we learn to love for their particular personalities and habits, they become real pets that you interact with. I have both 'pet' fish and ones that are just there to swim around and look pretty. Not that I want any of them to die you can always buy another pretty fish but a 'pet' fish is harder to replace.


Thank you; this is EXACTLY what I am experiencing with Oscar right now...there will simply never be another like him, and that's what worries me...that we simply will never get connected with any new fish again...

I don't know what we're going to do if we lose the other two -- part of me wants to start over and strip the tank, bleaching it down to rid it of the bacteria and crap that's in there from all the deaths, and fill it back with beautiful ornamental fantails again...but part of me just doesn't want to get connected again and have to deal with the imminent fatalities, or having to deal with comparing our old friends we lost with any new ones, which simply won't compare...


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Really? Meds have been literally known to _kill_ fish? Well, I suppose if there was an "overdose" as it is with humans, but if the medicine is dispensed right, they can still be fatal?


It's true that a lot of people don't follow the instructions properly or they mix too many meds. Most problems are easily fixed with simple things like clean water, a good diet, a reduction of stress etc. When someone has 3 goldfish in a 5 gallon tank with fin rot and think they better treat for bacteria, fungus and parisites just to be sure you know they are probably going to finish off their fish when the problem could have been solved simply without meds. Even when it's done right I think one problem is that medicating fish is not a very exact science. 

If you, as a human, get prescribed a medication it had to go through years of testing and the exact drug used and the dose will depend on various factors like your age weight medical history etc. A doctor examines you and asks you questions about your symptoms so that he knows he is prescribing the right drug. Even then people sometimes have bad reactions to drugs but in most cases they just stop taking it and are okay.

Even when you take your dog to the vet the vet has a lot of training and experience treating dogs and will likely, take it's temperature, look at it's gums etc, even take x rays or blood tests. Drugs they prescribed have also been well tested for dogs and the dose will be based on the weight of your dog. An exact dose can be given through tablets or injections. If the vet sees a cat with a similar problem they may suggest a different treatment because it is a different species. 

Now as fish owners we have to be the doctors/vets because you are unlikely to find a vet that understands about fish. You cant ask your fish questions, it's even hard to examine them and in most cases tests are not practical so it's hard to be sure you have the right treatment. It's hard to give exact doses of anything, you just have to put it in the water or food. Medications for fish may not have been particularly well tested and if they have, not on all species of fish, and different species will react differently. Most are essentially poisons that are designed to kill the parasite or disease before they kill the fish but they may well put a strain on the fishes organs and immune system, ironically making it harder for the fish to fight off disease. Of course some medications are stronger than others but treating fish with medication is often a bit more like giving humans chemo, there are situations where it is the best option but there are risks involved. 

Now having said all that in your case I can see why you want to treat as the problem doesn't seem to be a simple one. The good news is that goldfish are pretty tough and more resistant to meds than many fish. I think you could go one of two ways: 

1) Do extra water changes, do anything you can think of to reduce stress, perhaps add a little salt and hope that the fish will get the better of the problem through it's own immune system. 

2) Make your best guess at the medication needed and treat with it. 

Which is the better option? I don't know. It's one of those things you wish you could keep trying it over until you get it right! Now that you have started the meds I would probably just carry on. Either way Goldfish are fighters and it sounds like this one is doing better than the last one so he may recover. If it is an open I would consider salt in the water as if you use the right amount it can help the fish balance their water intake.


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