# Water chemistry off? Stressed out fish



## Sunshine (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi, all. I've got a little tiger barb that I wrote a post about 2 weeks ago or so. We rescued him from a 120 gal tank with turtles in it (after the rest of his school was eaten) to a 3 gallon plastic hexagonal tank. But even though I'm aware the tank could be cycling, the chemistry doesn't make sense. Does it? Nothing else has ever been able to live for very long in this tank, so I'm wondering if it's the tank.

120 gal tank: 4 turtles & 2 siamese algae fish. This is the tank the Tiger Barb came from. Established tank, fake plants, a few decorations and plenty of algae, no substrate (the stupid turtles kept eating the gravel). It's got a Fluval 4 with polyester polish filters and a uv filter to keep the algae out of the water, no heater. Nitrogen measures: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 80 ppm nitrate. Everyone is healthy and this is where the sick fish has been living the last 8 months.

3 gal hexagonal tank: now has the Tiger Barb. This fish didn't seem to be eating well and the kids were worried about his chances for survival alone with the predators, so we moved him. The tank is plastic, with a whisper pump and carbon filter (no biowheel), fake plant from 120 gal tank plus a nice healthy sprig of anachris, no substrate. The light keeps it pretty warm when on, between 70 and 80 degrees. Ammonia 0, Nitrite ranges from 0.5 to 5.0 ppm, nitrate 80+. Originally, the ammonia spiked, and we started 50% water changes every day just to keep it below 0.5ppm. After about 5 days or so, the nitrites started to rise, still no change in nitrates except when we do the water change. Sounds like a tank that just isn't done cycling, right?

But the weird thing is this: tap water is pH 7.2. 120 gal tank pH is 7.4. The 3 gal tank pH went right up to 8.2 the first day and stays high, though it has gone down a little to around 7.4-7.6 or so. I've read that with high NH3, the pH will be lowered, and that makes sense, so when the ammonias are so high, why the high pH too? The other thing is that a few days into this I started using the water from the 120 gal tank to do the water changes. It's room temperature, assume fully cycled (though nitrates are always very high) and easy to get to. So: if I'm using water from a cycled tank, wouldn't there be *something* in there to break down the nitrites? The ammonia in the small tank has stabilized, but the nitrites are always crazy high every night, and the fish is breathing very fast. No other evidence of disease except that and I haven't seen him eat for at least 3 weeks. I still feed a couple flakes each day or two, vacuuming them off the bottom when I do the water changes.

The last 3 changes I've done every other day, thinking maybe rest and let the bacteria reproduce, but it just results in 0 ammonia and higher nitrite. The fish swims around after the water change, but then after 12-24 hours is very poorly, resting behind the pump near the top and the nitrites are high again (ammonia 0). I tried the light on 24/7 the first few days, no effect, so now I'm turning it on in the daytime and off at night.

Is it the tank? Is it the plastic? Is it just not long enough for the tank to cycle, even if the water is coming from an established tank? I just don't know what to think, and I'm getting tired of changing the water every night. I'm sure the fish is tired of it too. He is very poorly. 

Anything else I can do? Am I doing something wrong? The nitrites don't dissipate and the pH won't come down. ?? I don't know how much longer he can take it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If the fish was sick to begin with, not sure using water from the tank he came from would be the best idea. Afterall, if he was sick in that water chances are something in that water made him sick. Nitrate readings of 80 alone is too much. 

First off, do you have a liquid test kit or are you using strips? If using strips they don't get finite enough to get a good idea of what is really going on with the tank. Saying that the nitrite reading is .5-5 is obviously a huge range, that ranges from ok to killing a fish nearly instantly.

I wouldn't sweat the ph at this moment. But...try setting a glass of your tap water aside and test the ph of it and then do the same about 24hrs later. Your ph may be changing after it has had time to gas out some.

So I would:

1. Get a liquid test kit 
2. Do at least a 50% water change in the 3g
3. Stop using water from the larger tank and let the small tank cycle without help - it doesn't appear to be good water to me.
4. Track your cycle in the small tank do water changes when the ammonia and/or nitrites get above 1. 
5. Test daily.


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## Sunshine (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestions.  I will test water on the counter tonight. The water from the big tank has a much lower pH (7.4) than that in the small tank (around 8.0, but depends on the day), so the pH is definitely rising after I put the water in the smaller tank.

I do have a liquid test kit and the 0.5-5.0 depends on the day, it's not a reading range. I have been doing 50% water changes every day or every other day. I didn't have any reason to think he was sick to start with, we just moved him because the kids were worried that he would get eaten by the turtles. He hadn't been seen out in the open eating, and I just attributed it to stress and trying to stay away from the turtles now that he had lost his whole "school" to predators.  The behavior started immediately after the last of the other tiger barbs disappeared. I really didn't think he was sick, just stressed. His eyes and gills are clear, scales are shiny, fins look nice. BUT he breathes very fast and his head points down when he is resting (more so in the past few days).

The ammonia readings have been around zero, but today I got: 0.25ppm NH3/0.5ppm NO2/80ppm NO3 with a pH of 8.0. The Nitrate reading is hard to tell, because it's bright red, and doesn't really match any of the colors on the chart - could be anywhere between 40ppm and 120ppm, but any of those is probably less than ideal. I am concerned about the elevated pH mainly because it's my understanding that NH3 is more toxic as the pH goes up. Plus I don't understand why the pH keeps rising.

I also just think it's weird that the tank with 4 turtles in it is cycled fine, but when I put that same water in the smaller tank with one little fishy it's not cycling, at least not to completion. Neither tank has substrate, and the small tank has real plants in it, so it should be able to reduce the nitrate even better than the other tank. The small tank also has a fake cloth plant from the original tank, so I thought some bacteria might make their way over. I am getting pleeenty of NitrIte, so I assume somebody is metabolizing that NH3, but the NitrAte keeps building up.

I forgot to mention that I am using AmQuel to treat the tap water when I have used tap water. My aquarium shop sold that to me to dechlorinate the water, but I noticed that on the label it says it reduces ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, so I had thought that might actually help a little. Since using the supposedly-cycled water, I haven't been using it. It doesn't seem to matter which water I use, I get low ammonia (thank goodness), high nitrIte and pH and very high nitrAte. 

I am loathe to stop the water changes, since they do definitely reduce the nitrogen levels and he just seems so stressed. I have thought that if I keep changing the water, it won't cycle, but since the water is coming from an established tank, it should be cycled, no? None of the other fish is unhealthy, and the turtles are bulletproof.

Is there anything physical about the small tank that could cause stress to the fish or a rise in pH? It's plastic, and everything I've ever put in it has died. It was in a south-facing window, and even though the temperature was reasonable (70-80), we always attributed it to too much light or heat. Now it's in a darker room and away from the window. I turn the light on in the morning and off at night. Could the plastic be leaching something out into the water?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Plastic isn't usually a problem for fish, many items for the aquarium like filters and decorations are made from plastic, I even use plastic storage containers when in need of an emergency tank. Plastic can have nasty additives to make it soft or for anti mold reasons but something made as a fish tank should be fine.

The most likely reason that you have had so many deaths in this tank is because it is so small. Small tanks are known to be very hard to keep stable as there is no extra water to buffer temperature swings, ammonia spikes etc. A small problem turns very big, very fast in such a small tank which is why many people don't recommend less tan 10 gallons for just about any fish. If you tried to keep a gold fish in it for example you'd expect it to die sooner or later, probably sooner. It is okay as a temporary hospital tank in a pinch but not really ideal for fish, perhaps okay for a Betta.

Are you using a heater, temperature swings between day and night will likely cause stress unless your house is very evenly heated all the time. In such a small tank you would need a very small heater to avoid cooking the fish. You can get micro heaters for betta tanks.

As far as ammonia and nitrites what you are going through sounds perfectly normal and the cycle is progressing well. One thing that is confusing you is that there are not many bacteria in the water itself, they stick themselves down so are found on all the surfaces in your aquarium and filter. The plant you added from the other tank should help but the water won't do much. Keep doing water changes to keep the levels down, you are not getting rid of bacteria, it still slows the cycle a little because you are removing some of the food the bacteria eat but you need to do it to keep the fish alive.

Not sure about the ph, could be to do with live plants depleting co2, which makes the ph rise. Just make sure that there is nothing like a stone in the tank that could be effecting ph.


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