# Tank Dying Off For Unknown Reasons



## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

My first post here!

I've had a very healthy and well taken care of 30 gallon tank for years. I started with some Endler's Live Bearers and kissing gourami's in a 10 gallon tank and then switched to a 30 about 5 years ago. After years of health, I'm having a die-off I just can't understand or stop. Nothing comes to mind that I would have added to the tank that started the problem. About the tank:

-Filtered with two Whisper 20 gallon filters with carbon media and a Whisper 10 gallon filter with bio media along with a 12" air stone. Tank is fed twice a day with regular Tetra food and gravel vac'ed monthly with a 50% water change.

-The tank was heavily planted with java fern, banana leaf, and horn wart that I would have to cut back monthly to keep from being a complete forest. It would get to the point where the gourami's were not able to swim in two months if I didn't cut it back. Over the last year though, almost all the plants have died off (except for the java moss). There is one stalk of banana plant left (there were 30+) and about 10 stalks of hornwart left (there were 30+) and I added anachris which has also been dieing off quickly. The tank is lit with one flourescent bulb which I have changed twice in the past year thinking that was the problem. I also recently started fertilizing with a copper based fertilizer thinking that was the problem. I also never had problems with algae growing on my glass, but that has since started.

-My school of 30 or so Endler's Live Bearers had died down from 30+ to only 6 (which I have moved into a 10 gallon tank which they seem happy in), I also have two pink kissing gourami's, 5 corey cathfish, and two algae eaters in the tank which all seem to be happy. I used to have a lot of small black snails, but they have nearly all died off. I have a few large white snails which seem to be doing fine.

-I change the filters and gravel vac monthly and do not thinking am over feeding. I used to go months without changing the filters or gravel vacing and the tank would be in harmony, but I've upped the changes in an attempt to try to bring the tank back to a healthy level. 

-Water test wise everything was fine except for my pH was off (recent development and I added salt and that should have corrected the problem) and my nitrates were out of control. It seems regardless of how much gravel vacing (2 times a week of 50% changes) or how often I change the filters, or bacteria I add, my nitrates are always high.


My thinking is that something I haven't figured out started the plant die off which in turn has send the nitrates out of control?

Does anyone have any ideas what is going on or how I can improve my tank's health. I'm really at a loss...

Thanks a lot in advance!


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## claygriffith01 (Apr 24, 2012)

Try increasing your vacs and water changes to weekly and 86 the copper ferts if you like the snails. Copper is deadly to most inverts in the water.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

Hello, and welcome to the forum! Where to start... Your snails are dying off most likely because you used copper in the water, copper is toxic to snails. I would stop adding aquarium salt if you have catfish. catfish(the algae eaters and corys) are very sensitive to salt. when you say algae eaters, do you mean plecos? if so are they commons?

To me it sounds like you are pretty overstocked for a 30g. Could you tell us what your ammo, nitrite, and nitrate levels are? are you using strip tests or liquid tests? You should be doing at least 25% water changes and gravel vacuuming once a week.


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

I'll hold off on the copper, I'm an idiot for not thinking about that with the snails! Thanks!

And I've been using test strips. All the levels came back as none or normal except for pH and nitrates. What gets me is I've had the tank set-up the same for years and its only recently crashed. 

I've moved to 50% water changes/gravel vacs weekly. 

I've talked to the local aquarium store and PetSmart's aquarium managers, but they don't have any other ideas.

Thanks!


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

And they are normal plecos


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## claygriffith01 (Apr 24, 2012)

Sounds like you've made some positive changes. Now all there is to do is wait and see. If things improve I'm sure you'll notice it right away. If not, then time for some more digging and asking around.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

if they are normal plecos, then you might want to think about re-homing them and getting a different breed of them. commons can get 2 feet. test strips are really inaccurate. I think you would benefit from buying yourself a liquid test kit. glad to hear that you have made some good changes. I hope everything goes well!


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice! I will try a different aquarium store that has liquid tests to have the water checked again. 

My only issue is I have been making these positive changes for a few months now to no improvement and I'm wondering if there are other things I could possibly do?

And thanks for the advice about the plecos, I know they will get bigger and will hopefully upgrade tanks as they grow.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I would cut down on the feeding to once a day/every two days. other than that, unless we know your exact water parameters(and don't take them telling you that "Everything looks good" ask them for the actual numbers they get back.) I'm no plant expert, so hopefully someone else will chime in.


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## ffemt89 (Mar 22, 2012)

Im still new to all this but if the copper killed the snails at a pretty quick rate and they weren't removed wouldn't the snails decomposing in the tank put off ammonia (?) which could have led to the fish die off?

Probably a long shot but just brainstorming a little


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You need liquid testing kits to give the values for your water params. An API mater test kit is $32 shipped from Walmart.com. What is off with the ph? What is it out of your tap? What was it before?

From what you have posted, I'd say that your fish may have been suffering from nitrate poisoning. It will cause issues over time. But, hard to say without knowing what those values were. Above 40 over periods of a long time can kill your fish.

Can't really speak to the plants. Have you let the Anacharis float? Grows better that way anyway.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Kissing gouramis could be part of the problem. They are a food fish, and get to about two pounds in their natural habitat. They are big waste producers that are farmed because they are incredibly pollution tolerant. They are raised in ponds fed with pig manure.
So they are a fish that would continue to look good even in nitrate rich water, which could have given you a false sense of security. With two kissers and plecos in a 30, you have a massive set of waste producers right there - you are seriously overstocked and they are probably undoing everything you do as soon as you feed them. You're are in the same cycle of impossible tank cleaning goldfish keepers often find themselves in. I'm afraid you may have reached the limit on that tank and those fish...


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks for all of the great feedback! I'll check the water again tonight and get back to yall with the outcome. 

I was under the impression that the pleco's would help the tank clean and not add to the waste problem? 

The gouramis have been there forever along with the other fish. Maybe I'll take the pleco's out....

Is anyone aware if they or the other fish would go crazy eating the plants? Would the gouramis or corys eat the Endler's Live Bearers? I could never find any bodies but figured the cory's ate them after they died?

The gourami's are maybe 4 inches max right now and the plecos are maybe 5 inches.

Thanks again for all your help!


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

tomandjerry00 said:


> I was under the impression that the pleco's would help the tank clean and not add to the waste problem?


Plecos are actually pooping machines, and when they get older, they get lazy


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

There's a myth about catfish cleanup crews. They are fish like any other, and all herbivorous fish produce buckets of waste. Plecos aren't even bottom feeders, so the stereotype misses by a mile on them.
I'd expect the kissing gouramis to have eaten the endlers, if they are at four inches. 
If they are at four inches, chances are you have a clear symptom of the problem having existed before the endlers went west. A kisser at that age should be double that size, and their growth has probably been slowed by environmental stress. In a way, that's lucky, because they would have outgrown the tank otherwise. Still, with water changes and a population reduction, you should be fine.


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks a lot for all of your help! I am going to try to rehome the plecos (let me know if you're interested), heavily replant the tank so the endler's can hide, and wait for the endler's to reproduce a fair bit before reintroducing them into the tank.

I am also planning on adding an up-flowing algae filter.

If anyone has other ideas or thoughts, please let me know!

BTW- after a 50% water change with lots and lots of vacuuming, the nitrates are at 80.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

80??????? are you conditioning your water? you wana get that halved and quick!


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## tomandjerry00 (Jun 25, 2012)

Should I be doing more to condition it besides adding dechlorinator and letting it sit for a week so I get the right temp?

I am planning on another water change tonight. I did one a few days ago and did not want to shock fish too much.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

no thats cool. what make do you use? i dont bother letting my water sit, just use my hand thermometer!!!

thats crazy there so high. you should test your tap water for nitrates.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

eutrophy
n. state of being well nourished; (of area of water) state of being over-rich in organic and mineral nutrients which promote plant life at the expense of animal life. eutrophic, a.; n. tonic. eutrophication, n. process of becoming eutrophic, especially owing to pollution. 

I believe your tank is on the path of many an overfertilized lake - it's eutrophying. Your kissing gouramis can take almost anything pollution can throw at them (as I said before, they eat vats of pig manure dumped in their ponds) and their wastes have permeated your substrate (do you gravel vacuum?) and filter. Your tank has passed the tipping point.

Been there, done that...

You will need a lot of gravel vacuuming, and heavy water changing. Once the gravel is clean, you will need 50% every second day for at least a week or more. Then, with those fish, you will need very regular 30% weekly changes (once the readings are normal) to keep the tank healthy.
Big plant eating food fish can be good pets, but they take serious work to maintain. Count your blessings - you didn't become attached to giant gouramis...


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