# Okay -- A Plethora of Problems With My Goldfish Tank Since Last Post...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Hello Aquarium Forum Friends.

Since my last post, many things have taken place in my tank that I require some assistance on making sense of. First of all, we recently introduced a young, small Red Cap Oranda to our 60 gallon, which accompanied a large Red Cap and Chocolate/Gold fantail (both which are now two and a half years old in our tank, growing since we set the tank up) in addition to a Black and Gold Moor. Immediately, the new small Red Cap began bullying the large Red Cap and Chocolate/Gold fancy, chasing them around and what appeared to be pecking at their rears. This ended up resulting in red, inflamed areas around their anal canals, the Chocolate fantail in particular looking really inflamed and bad, and what began as thinking this may had been a mating ritual between an aggressive male and two females had turned to concerns of bullying to death. 

We went out and purchased, yesterday, a 10 gallon starter kit from a local Petsmart, and I netted the aggressive Red Cap from the main tank ultimately putting him in the 10 gallon starter kit. When we set the 10 gallon up, because we were in a bit of an emergency thinking he was going to kill the larger fish in our main tank, we washed all gravel and decor in warm water per the instructions (no soap of course), filled it with tap water and I immediately began Prime treatment as well as Stablility treatment to kick-start the cycle. In the meantime, we actually had the bullying Red Cap in a little vase temporarily, and then I poured him into the starter 10 gallon where he looked like he was going into shock. This was no surprise due to all the trauma he suffered, coming from the main tank, going into a flower vase and then being dumped into a new tank -- unbelievably, he is still alive today, even with being dumped into uncycled water and with all this trauma, but there are many issues now going on with his tank and our main aquarium...

First of all, the internal power filter that came with the cheap starter kit we bought was a complete piece of crap, offering no flow and not seemingly doing anything, so today I went out and bought an Aqueon QuietFlow 20 for this 10 gallon. I set it up and it's pumping water into the small tank, and I have also continued dosing the water with Seachem's Stability to continue kick-starting the cycle process because there is a fish in there -- I believe Seachem suggests dosing for a week with this stuff. At any rate, the Red Cap in this 10 gallon still appears to be in semi-shock, swimming around sometimes and even eating now and then, but he is still alive. Before I get to what's wrong in our main 60 gallon, here are the questions I have about this starter tank:

Firstly: Does this fish stand a chance of survival being that we dumped him from a vase into this tank that was not cycled at all (but has been dosed with both Prime for declorination and Stability to help with the bio kick-start)? What's even weirder is that the new tank syndrome which causes the horiffically cloudy water (which this tank had upon startup) has somehow disappeared -- just today, after setting up the Aqueon 20 power filter on the 10 gallon, I noticed that the water in this starter tank is nearly crystal clear (the kit came with a hood and light as well). Isn't that odd?

Perhaps even stranger is the fact that I am looking at the Red Cap in the 10 gallon from my seating position right now, and he's actually swimming a bit and coming to the top, acting kind of healthy -- earlier today he didn't look that great, sitting at the bottom motionless even when I tapped on the glass, but since installing the Aqueon filter (probably just a coincidence) he has begun swimming more and acting a bit different...

So, my questions about this emergency 10 gallon we set up are: 1) Should I expect this fish to survive these conditions? 2) Should I continue to dose this tank each day with Stability? Is this helping the cycle process? 3) Was the Aqueon QuietFlow 20 the right filter purchase for this tank? Should this be enough filtration on a 10 gallon with just one goldfish in there as of now?

This brings me to what is happening in our main 60 gallon, which houses a larger Red Cap Oranda, a Chocolate/Gold fantail and a Black/Gold Moor. The repeated attacks by the bullying Red Cap who is now in the 10 gallon upon both the larger Red Cap and Chocolate fantail lead to horrendous, red, open sores on their behinds -- I mean really bad looking. Additionally, due to the bullying characteristics of the smaller Red Cap, the Chocolate fantail appears to have suffered bruises on the sides of his body that are clearly evident when you look for them...they almost appear as black-and-blue marks on the scales. Because of this, I immediately started an API Aquarium Salt bath in the tank as a relief tonic, but I didn't add the dose as stated on the box -- according to API, something like 16 tablespoons of salt should be added to a 60 gallon tank, and I just didn't want to stand there and spoon out 16 tablespoons...and so I merely just added a few tablespoons which quickly fell to the gravel and began releasing into the water column. Additionally, we went out and bought API's Melafix (Melafix® - API) which is supposed to treat open sores, wounds, etc. which we thought was perfect for this problem...and immediately started dosing the six teaspoons for our 60 gallons. The directions claim we should do this for 7 days and then do a 25% water change, and then add more if the symptoms haven't cleared up...they also said that activated carbon should be removed from the filter if possible. Here are my dilemmas with THIS tank now:

First of all, since adding the API salt, the water in the 60 gallon has gotten weird -- where it was once crystal clear from a recent addition of Purigen packs, suddenly there is a fizzy, alka seltzer-like foaming coming from my bubble bars and the water itself in the tank looks club-soda-like and a bit murky...is this normal for salt to do this to fresh water? It looks like the tank is filled with colorless soda...

Additionally, did we do the right thing with regard to the API medication for the fish's wounds? We're on our second day of dosing with this stuff, but is it possible this will actually heal their red sores and make them feel better since the smaller Red Cap attacked them? I don't really like the behavior of the Chocolate fantail since starting the medicine and salt, as he's not eating that much and is kind of just floating and breathing, not really interested in swimming which is very uncharateristic of him -- especially the eating. Is it remotely possible the API stuff is working on him and soothing the wound on his rear end? Or is it that the medicine is making him sicker than he is now, combined with the salt in the tank? 

Should I continue dosing with the API medicine for the full 7 days as the instructions say, and then do the 25% water change at that time? And then what about the filter media in my two HOB's on this tank now -- the Aqueon QuietFlow 55 has two carbon cartridges (which I didn't remove before dosing with the medicine) and a 100ml pack of Purigen in it, while the AquaClear 110 (the other HOB we're running) has the sponge, two 100ml packs of Purigen and the BioMax rings in its media basket. What should I do with all these pieces of media while the medicine is treating the water/fish? Should I wait the week before I actually rinse them or change them -- should the Aqueon's cartridges at least be changed out at the end of the medicine dosing? And what about the Purigen -- do these need to be tossed out and replaced now due to the fact that medicine got inside the packs? The packs are only a week or so old...

That's all I can think of for now with regard to all this; if anyone could assist with these problems and questions, it would be greatly appreciated because we don't want to lose any of these fish -- if we lost the aggressive Oranda who is now in the 10 gallon starter tank it would be easier than losing the two larger fancies we basically raised since they were small in our main tank, yet we really don't want any deaths... 

Thank you, in advance...


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## freshwater77 (May 24, 2011)

Well for your 10-gal, do regular water changes to manage your ammonia and nitrate/ite levels... Ammonia will burn and kill your fish if levels are too high. If you can keep the water clean and ammonia levels low, your fish should survive if he makes the initial two weeks. The 20-gal filter will be fine for your ten-gallon tank. It'll manage the waste your fish makes and turn enough gallons to keep the water clean and circulated. Regular water changes always help. 

As far as your 60-gal, I've never put salt in a fresh tank so I can't help you there. However, yes, follow your 7-day regimen and follow the directions on the box. Another thing you can try for your fish is a salt bath. Prepare a salt bath in a separate small container; you can find proper proportions for salt to water within the site or online. Essentially, you net your fish and dip it in the salt bath to help with open wound healing. If he thrashes around, take him right out and back into his tank. 

The medicine doesn't damage the filters. The filters are supposed to be removed while dosing because the filters take the medicine out of the water and prevent the medicine from working. You should give them a good rinse, but they should be fine otherwise.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks so much for your reply, Lauren! It is greatly appreciated...



freshwater77 said:


> Well for your 10-gal, do regular water changes to manage your ammonia and nitrate/ite levels... Ammonia will burn and kill your fish if levels are too high. If you can keep the water clean and ammonia levels low, your fish should survive if he makes the initial two weeks. The 20-gal filter will be fine for your ten-gallon tank. It'll manage the waste your fish makes and turn enough gallons to keep the water clean and circulated. Regular water changes always help.


Okay; but what about the Seachem Stability...should I continue dosing with that to kick start the cycle? Won't my new filter handle keeping the water clean and ammonia levels low...do I have to do constant water changes in this new tank? Also -- the QuietFlow 20 filter is definitely powerful enough for this sized tank? 



> As far as your 60-gal, I've never put salt in a fresh tank so I can't help you there. However, yes, follow your 7-day regimen and follow the directions on the box.


You mean with the Melafix medicine? It's odd because I just received a reply from someone on another forum that recommended I take the medicine out with a water change and stop dosing with this stuff -- that fresh water was better for their sores and wounds. Do you really recommend going through with the 7 days? This won't kill the fish in any way? 



> Another thing you can try for your fish is a salt bath. Prepare a salt bath in a separate small container; you can find proper proportions for salt to water within the site or online. Essentially, you net your fish and dip it in the salt bath to help with open wound healing. If he thrashes around, take him right out and back into his tank.


I'm not sure if I want to attempt an out-of-tank salt bath; in fact, this other individual I mentioned above suggested that I didn't even do the salt treatment right. He suggested that salt needs to be predissolved in tank water and added that way over a 24 to 48 hour time period; he claimed the way I did it, just dumping the salt crystals into the tank on tablespoons, isn't doing anything productive. 



> The medicine doesn't damage the filters. The filters are supposed to be removed while dosing because the filters take the medicine out of the water and prevent the medicine from working. You should give them a good rinse, but they should be fine otherwise.


I understand the filters and cartridges won't be "destroyed" or "broken" by the medicine, but I was concerned with the cartridges and the fact that I didn't remove the carbon inside them before dosing; now, I don't know what to do with my filter media...I'm not sure if the media sucked up all the medicine and it's not working, or if it didn't...


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

> Okay; but what about the Seachem Stability...should I continue dosing with that to kick start the cycle? Won't my new filter handle keeping the water clean and ammonia levels low...do I have to do constant water changes in this new tank? Also -- the QuietFlow 20 filter is definitely powerful enough for this sized tank?


Things like stuff to help cycle a tank take with a grain of salt, sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. As for the water changes on the new tank, yes definately change water often, get your self a test kit, when ammonia reaches .50 do a large water change. The filter will help keep it clean but until the bacteria builds for consuming ammonia, then nitrites no it won't help, than can take a couple of weeks to a couple of months.



> You mean with the Melafix medicine? It's odd because I just received a reply from someone on another forum that recommended I take the medicine out with a water change and stop dosing with this stuff -- that fresh water was better for their sores and wounds. Do you really recommend going through with the 7 days? This won't kill the fish in any way?


Salt and meds should never be mixed. Clean water will help heal as long as no infections have set in so it's not needed until then. If you do just constant water changes I wouldn't add anything but prime in the water, it should help on its own. Salt is an irritant to most freshwater fish and doesn't need to be added. What it does is cause the fish to produce more slime coat than what is needed.



> I understand the filters and cartridges won't be "destroyed" or "broken" by the medicine, but I was concerned with the cartridges and the fact that I didn't remove the carbon inside them before dosing; now, I don't know what to do with my filter media...I'm not sure if the media sucked up all the medicine and it's not working, or if it didn't...


The filters if they contain carbon will remove medicine from the tank and basically wasting time adding it unless you remove it. If the carbon has been in there for 3 to 4 weeks without being changed it has lost its usefulness and shouldn't have to worry about it.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

susankat said:


> Things like stuff to help cycle a tank take with a grain of salt, sometimes it works and sometimes it don't.


Stability is supposed to be respected in the community; at any rate, should the addition of this chemical each day be beneficial, in any way, for the newly set up 10 gallon? Taking into account, especially, the fact that there was not enough time in this emergency situation to cycle the new tank?



> As for the water changes on the new tank, yes definately change water often, get your self a test kit, when ammonia reaches .50 do a large water change. The filter will help keep it clean but until the bacteria builds for consuming ammonia, then nitrites no it won't help, than can take a couple of weeks to a couple of months.


Well, the small Red Cap seems to be doing "okay" with just daily doses of the Stability (and Prime when receiving new water) so I don't want to upset things too much in there...

Oh, and I do have the API Master Freshwater Test Kit...



> Salt and meds should never be mixed.


Okay...good to know; I didn't even dose the salt right anyway, so...



> Clean water will help heal as long as no infections have set in so it's not needed until then.


What's not needed until then -- you mean medication? Are you saying they should be okay with just water changes and no meds, so long as there's no infections? 



> If you do just constant water changes I wouldn't add anything but prime in the water, it should help on its own. Salt is an irritant to most freshwater fish and doesn't need to be added. What it does is cause the fish to produce more slime coat than what is needed.


The Prime should help on its own? And it's strange about the salt; some freshwater keepers swear by it...



> The filters if they contain carbon will remove medicine from the tank and basically wasting time adding it unless you remove it. If the carbon has been in there for 3 to 4 weeks without being changed it has lost its usefulness and shouldn't have to worry about it.


Yeah, I think the cartridges were in there about three or so weeks...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The ten should be fine for the small fish with regular heavy water changes, but what are you going to do with him long term? It's too small for anything but a temporary holding tank.
I don't use the products you are using, so I can't comment on their usefulness. I would go with 50% water changes in the big tank as often as possible (daily if you have the time) while the wounds are evident. The big danger is bacterial infection. In the 10, you will have to water change like crazy too.
Melafix has very very mild antibacterial properties, and salt is a skin irritant that cause the fish to increase slime production - with skin slime being the first line of defence in its immune system. 
I would never do a salt bath, as it is hard on the kidneys of the fish. I would expect it to serious stress the fish for little return.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

what susan and navigator said....good old water changes and lots of them for both tanks will see you right (plus testing the 10gal for ammonia)


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> The ten should be fine for the small fish with regular heavy water changes, but what are you going to do with him long term? It's too small for anything but a temporary holding tank.


We really didn't think that far down the line for this Red Cap; I suppose we figured we would buy yet another big tank to hold him in if he survives this holding tank -- right now, he is definitely small enough for his current size. 

I'm hoping the new filter and the daily dosing of Stability will aid in getting the 10 gallon up and running to bio stability of some kind. Today, the tank is back to being cloudy with new tank syndrome symptoms when yesterday, it was crystal clear, which seems strange to me...at any rate, the little guy is still swimming around in there and eating. 

The thing is, this small Oranda nearly killed two much-bigger goldies in the 60 gallon...and I fear he may have actually done unfixable damage to the Chocolate Fantail (more on this in a new post). 



> I don't use the products you are using, so I can't comment on their usefulness. I would go with 50% water changes in the big tank as often as possible (daily if you have the time) while the wounds are evident. The big danger is bacterial infection. In the 10, you will have to water change like crazy too.


Okay -- we did a 10 to 15% change this morning and the really infected-looking Chocolate Fantail isn't looking too good; he doesn't want to eat and when flakes pass him by, he sucks them in and spits them out. His dorsal fin is also clamped most of the time (NOT a good sign, at all) and I am worried we're too late with the treatments. I have decided to back off the Melafix dosing today because the water was looking really, really bad from it and it seems the fish aren't breathing 100 percent right from it, even though I am running two big HOB's and two bubble bars in the system (from what I read online, the Melafix could actually rob the water of oxygen). 

I didn't attempt a 50% change because we simply didn't have the time this morning and I didn't want to really rid the water column of all the Melafix incase it's doing something to heal the wounds -- are you suggesting I should continue water changes and remove the rest of the meds and rely on just getting fresh water into the tank? 



> Melafix has very very mild antibacterial properties, and salt is a skin irritant that cause the fish to increase slime production - with skin slime being the first line of defence in its immune system.


So the salt _isn't_ good for them, or is it? Should I stop the Melafix completely? We decided to skip a dose today...



> I would never do a salt bath, as it is hard on the kidneys of the fish. I would expect it to serious stress the fish for little return.


I won't attempt the "bath" then; but what about adding it via new tank water, predissolved?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> what susan and navigator said....good old water changes and lots of them for both tanks will see you right (plus testing the 10gal for ammonia)


Thanks zero.

So, continue sucking out the Melafix from the main tank via water changes? We did a (approximately) 10 to 15% change this morning...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

I'd do 50% a week in the big tank and with the small one when the ammonia gets to .25 do a water change. U need to let them build for the good bacteria to form but not highenough to hurt ur fish. I'd keep doing 50% in the big tank as gold fish r very messy! And yeah stop adding treatment apart from de chlorinator. There really unnecessary unless ur fish have ich etc. Don't add salt! Don't worry, if u keep the water clean n cut down on feading ur fish will pull through. Just try n be patient, n don't keep messing with the tank. Leave em be n just do the water change once a week. Hope I'm making sense!


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

Also the reason I say cut down on feeding is because as there hurt n stressed there not guna eat very much if at all, as uve very well seen, so feeding what there not eating is just guna male the water dirty.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> I'd do 50% a week in the big tank and with the small one when the ammonia gets to .25 do a water change. U need to let them build for the good bacteria to form but not highenough to hurt ur fish. I'd keep doing 50% in the big tank as gold fish r very messy! And yeah stop adding treatment apart from de chlorinator. There really unnecessary unless ur fish have ich etc. Don't add salt! Don't worry, if u keep the water clean n cut down on feading ur fish will pull through. Just try n be patient, n don't keep messing with the tank. Leave em be n just do the water change once a week. Hope I'm making sense!


So definitely cut down on feeding? How much should I cut down? How often to feed?

Is it okay to stop the medication "cold turkey" all of a sudden in the middle of the treatment? How is it that just water changes are going to help heal the wounds the rear ends of these fish have sustained?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> Also the reason I say cut down on feeding is because as there hurt n stressed there not guna eat very much if at all, as uve very well seen, so feeding what there not eating is just guna male the water dirty.


Thanks.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

Read my last post about feeding. I'd just put a couple pellets in or if u feed flake a tiny pinch n if it goes un eaten wait a day then try again. I'm not sure why clean water helps them heal but I was suggested to do it when my oscar had most his scales bitten off n a good majority of his fins n after a week he was back to normal. I really thought he was going to die, he sat on the bottom of the tank with his pectoral fins (what was leftof them) stuck to his sides n didn't eat for 3 days. Trust the meds r prob doing nothing. But never ever stop any meds half way through treatment when there for infections, worms or parasites etc as the bugs become immune to the treatment.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

And keep the lights off in the tank unless u have live plants


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> Read my last post about feeding. I'd just put a couple pellets in or if u feed flake a tiny pinch n if it goes un eaten wait a day then try again.


Yes, I saw your additional post about the feeding after I posted my last message; that's why I thanked you. Sorry for the confusion. 

The thing about the feeding is this -- I understand we have two fish in there that aren't really interested in eating since the wounds began (well, one moreso than the other), but there's also one Black Moor, who was not affected by the attacks of the small Red Cap. Will cutting back on the feeding adversely affect him? 



> I'm not sure why clean water helps them heal but I was suggested to do it when my oscar had most his scales bitten off n a good majority of his fins n after a week he was back to normal. I really thought he was going to die, he sat on the bottom of the tank with his pectoral fins (what was leftof them) stuck to his sides n didn't eat for 3 days. Trust the meds r prob doing nothing.


Thanks for this info; why was your Oscar having his scales and fins bit off? What fish did that to him? And all you did was water changes to help him? So, you're suggesting the meds are probably not helping at all? 



> But never ever stop any meds half way through treatment when there for infections, worms or parasites etc as the bugs become immune to the treatment.


I'm not sure if these are infections at all...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> And keep the lights off in the tank unless u have live plants


I do not have live plants. The tank is running a full fluorescent light strip; why should these be left off? Stress concerns?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

Yep light off to help with the stress, the lights are only there for humans to view them. Ok if one is not affected still cut down on the food, they won't eat every day in the wild so the reduced food won't be a problem for the healthy one. We had a milwai cichlid in with him a Melanochromis auratus and one day she turned n savagely attacked him! He literally had stumps for pectoral fins  . Like I say, in the wild they don't have meds so natural is the best way. From what I've heard this stuff u was using doesn't really work. But uve gota keep the water very clean or they will get infected. Look out for signs of infection n if possible post a picture on here before medicsting if u suspect they are getting infected.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> Yep light off to help with the stress, the lights are only there for humans to view them. Ok if one is not affected still cut down on the food, they won't eat every day in the wild so the reduced food won't be a problem for the healthy one. We had a milwai cichlid in with him a Melanochromis auratus and one day she turned n savagely attacked him! He literally had stumps for pectoral fins  . Like I say, in the wild they don't have meds so natural is the best way. From what I've heard this stuff u was using doesn't really work. But uve gota keep the water very clean or they will get infected. Look out for signs of infection n if possible post a picture on here before medicsting if u suspect they are getting infected.


Gotcha -- thanks for all that! And I'm so sorry about your Oscar being attacked; indeed, I have heard the chiclids can be savage at times. Ironically, the goldfish we're treating for these wounds is named "Oscar"...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Been a while Clinica. Sorry to hear you're having so many issues. You'll get through them. I've been through a couple where it almost made me want to just pack it all up and sell it. Hopefully you haven't hit that feeling yet. Hang in there.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Been a while Clinica. Sorry to hear you're having so many issues. You'll get through them. I've been through a couple where it almost made me want to just pack it all up and sell it. Hopefully you haven't hit that feeling yet. Hang in there.


Thanks JR...

Yeah, this problem came on all of a sudden when we introduced two new goldies into the tank -- this young, small Red Cap that proceeded to attack the larger two already in the tank, and a small, dark orange and black-colored "comet/koi" shaped fancy. That fancy died within a week of putting him in the tank; after the Red Cap attacked the larger fish we already have, we bought a 10 gallon starter kit and quarrantined him, where he remains. Now I just don't know if the other two are going to survive the damage done from the bullying Oranda...

Any suggestions about any of this?


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