# Canister filter



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Hey guys, I have a 20g as you can see in my signature. I have 2 rainbow sharks that are going to outgrow this tank and will be upgrading to a larger tank at some point. My concern is that my hob filters will not be enough for a tank of about 55 gallons. So, obviously I don't want to spend a ton of money on a new filter, but also don't want to get a used one either. Never know what's been in someone else's tank. Which canister filter is going to be relatively inexpensive but also do a good job filtering? Also, is the media that comes with these sufficient? I saw a video of a guy who replaced the included media with foam and other types of bio media. Thanks for your input!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

For a 55g canister I would go with a Eheim 2217. The media that they come with is arguably some of the best on the market, but still you can try different setups with it. I have seen them with all bio balls and the instructions talk of an all filter pad option. Just depends if you want to keep it for mechanical and bio filtering or just go with bio. I use my 2217 on a 29g (a tad much) and have it setup using the media/pads provided.

You can use your HOBs with the canister also.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks jr; I'm looking for a way to replace the hobs..they look ugly  so how do I go about seeding the canister with my established colony?


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The easiest way is to just run all filters on the tanks for about 2wks. The other is to remove the media from your HOBs and put in the canister.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Canister filters all do pretty much the same thing right? Is there any reason to choose the eheim over the Marineland or fluval? Especially if there is a substantial price difference?


----------



## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

Ya I would run both for a while, this just insures the canister is well seeded. I know a lot of people here are going to recommend ehiem. And rightfully so! But if o have a multiple fluval canisters and I am ver happy with them. Got them new on eBay cheap.


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The biggest difference I have heard most speak of is actual capacity of the filter.How much stuff you can have in it.
That being said and going back to another thread ;all filters are circulators and do hold the majority of beneficial bacteria,BUT for the most part exceptional aquarium keeping is achieved with water changes regardless of filter.
So any "efficient" filter and "ample" water changes should do you just fine.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Ok so I got the marineland C220 canister. It's made for up to 55gallons. Pretty nice setup. Very quiet with the exception of the ceramic rings in one of the trays rattling around. Wonder how I could silence those. Some suggested a media/filter bag. Considering moving the ceramic to the bottom of the canister to see if it quiets down. For some reason they have them in the top tray. Seems like the water would be pretty turbulent up there. Also, if the idea is for the rings to take large particulates out, wouldn't it make more sense to have them at the bottom?


----------



## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm not sure it would make a whole lot of difference. Its all a closed system. But you could put it in a bag. Or you can add a "cut to fit" filter floss. However if they say keep it at the top there's probably a reason. But as bandit said filters don't make the amazing difference most people think. But a good filter does help!


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I've figured out, at this point, that its the impeller. There's a slight defect in the top of the unit where the impeller spins. Just a slight imperfection in the molding process that is rubbing ever so slightly on the impeller. Maybe after a few hundred hours of use it will wear down that imperfection and stop the noise. Anyways, I'm happy. Got a new external filter, it's seeding, and as much as I used to love the sound of the water in my tank, that has worn off and it too will be gone. No more humming of the HOB. Next step is a 55 gallon so my rainbow sharks can grow comfortably and more room so I can finally give my schooling fish the numbers they prefer.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think you should have gone bigger. The filter barely being rated for that tank may not be the best thing. Generally twice the capacity or 4-5 times water turnover is the target. If you are combining with other filters you should be okay. If not, you will have to pay closer attention to stocking and water changes.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Aqadvisor says for 55g it's more than enough. I do plan to keep my air driven sponge as well. Plan is to keep the fish I have and add 5 more neons, 3 more glo tetras, and maybe 2 or 3 Schwartz cories. Even so, aw advisor says I would be 60% stocked, and well over 100% filtration. Do you disagree? I mean, that's turning the tank over 4 times and hour in a perfect world.


----------



## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

its always nice to have a filter rated for twice the tank volume, or 5-10 times the gph of the volume of the tanks 

so for a 55g, i would say between 250 and 500 gph.

the 220 will still work but its nice to have the extra volume as well.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

So as far as seeding, once the canister has run for a couple weeks and can be assumed as seeded, it's just as easy as transferring the canister (and HOB) to the new tank with already dechlor'd water isn't it? I plan to clean the tank once I get it, because its coming to me as freshly used. Found a guy who's getting rid of his 55g plus stand for $120. Anything else I should be aware of when transferring my fish and filters to the new tank? I do plan to run the new tank without fish for a few days and check the water chems to be sure it doesn't swing into a wild cycle or anything.

My transfer checklist:
Tank cleaned and well rinsed (no detergents)
Water dechlorinated and same as 20g tank temp
Substrate washed and in place , as well as deco
Filters (already seeded) in place
Water chems stable, no re-cycling 

Thanks for any input


----------



## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

I wouldn't "wash" your substrate. It holds as much if not more BB than the filter. When you move the gravel and fill the tank it will rinse it self in the new water and make its way back to the substrate and filter. But I wouldn't clean it at all. And if the "new" tank just had water in it just rinse it out well and wipe it good with a clean rag. Then if you want you can transfer some of the water from the current tank to the new one. This can help cut down on bad water chem to start. Your moving stable water. Then its almost a large WC.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Sounds like a plan. Now let me ask you this: the new (used) aquarium has some scratches in the glass. I'm not comfortable buffing them out with so much water weight in the tank and the back has been painted black, which im not upset about. I've heard it weakens the glass, and I'm given to understand 55g weighs about 550 pounds or so. So my question now is what about auto glass repair/sealer? If used, once it dries, do you think it would leach anything into the water over time? You know the stuff, the same stuff used to seal divots in windshields and stuff.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would either live with the scratch or not use the tank. Don't transfer old water to the new tank. This does nothing but "transfer old water to a new tank." Only then would it be like a big water change. You only need to match the temp and if that takes two hours then the tank would be ready after that. If you have been using tap water all along it is the same water and you should not have any water problems, unless you have them now.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Scratch problem has been resolved! Not sure if any of you are "friends of Bill W., but I am and have another who just offered me his 55g, stand, decos, and gravel for $50! The fish gods are smiling on me. New water, no problem.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Hey all,

I was doing some reading on the ol' interweb, because my canister is always getting air into the filter. I've ensured that all of my seals are not only tight, but the o rings are always lubricated, my bubble wand is far enough away from the intake so that no bubbles get into the intake tube, etc. so my question has to do with cavitation.

I found this: 7. Cavitation is the phenomenon of air or gas bubbles being forced or sheared from the water itself by a stagnating impeller or other drive device. There are always gases dissolved in water in open contact with the air. When a simple flow pump is intake-starved, the moving (without being able to normally move water) impeller causes bubbling. The type of pumps we use in most of our filters can have the output restricted to some degree by head pressure or by valving down, but should never be intake-restricted. Cavitation as a symptom should not be ignored. Damage to the drive may occur.

So I'm wondering if I should look for a bigger intake tube. With all the water movement I have going on I'm sure my O2 content is high, and it seems like my canister may be creating negative pressure resulting in the gases being pulled from the water and accumulating in the canister.

Thoughts?


----------



## Akinaura (Nov 8, 2010)

MriGuy85 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I was doing some reading on the ol' interweb, because my canister is always getting air into the filter. I've ensured that all of my seals are not only tight, but the o rings are always lubricated, my bubble wand is far enough away from the intake so that no bubbles get into the intake tube, etc. so my question has to do with cavitation.
> 
> ...



I've had this problem time and again with Marineland canisters. Ensuring that it was completely filled with water after every water change helped me get around some of the annoyance from it, but not much.

What do you mean by "larger intake tube"? Are you talking about the plastic piece itself that draws the water from the tank, or a larger diameter tube that connects to the canister itself? I'm not sure how having a larger diameter hose would work, because you'd still have to restrict the diameter down for it to connect back to the nozzle on the canister...


----------



## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

Before you drive yourself crazy trying to diagnose an issue. Take the hoses down and clean them! With the marineland the hoses are ribbed which is nice because they flex nicely. But this also gives more area for crud to collect. So clean those and see what happens.


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Looking at the design of the filter I would think air(o2) may be getting generated ,or trapped in one of the material sections(like the sponge) and builds up until it is sucked up to the impeller.Not sure how this could be cured or if it is a common issue with upflow canisters(they are usaully the best design).Possibly just squezzing out sponge(in the canister with water in it) would eliminate air that otherwise is unseen?


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Maybe the problem is too much media, or the media is too dense inside the canister causing the prop to not be able to pull the water through the media quick enough causing it to pull the gas out of the water from the pressure buildup. Now that I think of it, it almost sounds more logical than a restricting tube.

Edit: I wrote this at the same time you were writing, coral. I think we might be on to something,Ike the problem being something to do with the media inside the canister.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

hotwingz said:


> Before you drive yourself crazy trying to diagnose an issue. Take the hoses down and clean them! With the marineland the hoses are ribbed which is nice because they flex nicely. But this also gives more area for crud to collect. So clean those and see what happens.


The vinyl hoses appear to be very smooth on the inside. It's not that black corrugated stuff. I cleaned my hoses about a week ago, and while there was crud in them, it was only a couple millimeters thick. So at this point, dirty hoses are not the problem. I also cleaned the black plastic connector pipes and the valve block. Everything is squeaky clean.


----------



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

I haven't had any issues at all with mine... I don't run a bubble wand either though

Is it possible that little air bubbles are getting sucked up from your bubble wand into the intake and building up in the canister?


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

It does sound like something is disturbing around the intake. Bubble wand, a powerhead, something. 

How long does it take to occur once you get the air out or are you ever able to get it out? If you think it is the media, have you tried removing the trays and see if it changes? I've never experienced this with any of my canisters so really can't help.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

As posted a bit earlier, my bubble wand isn't close enough to the intake for this to happen. I've sat and watched it for lengthy periods and it doesn't suck up even the smallest bubble. I think it's a media issue and will investigate it next time I open my canister. My flow is still great so for now ill just give it a little shake whenever it starts acting up until I open it up and clean it again.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Stock media or have you altered it any? Different type maybe?


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Mostly stock media. Bottom tray: ceramic rings covered with coarse foam. Second tray: old filter pads from a HOB topped with bio balls. Third tray: bio balls. 4th tray: "quilt batting" topped with coarse foam. All covered with the stock slotted tray plate. 

It has become less often that I hear the canister struggling with air since cleaning the hoses, block, etc. and replacing the original floss pad with quilt batting. It still happens here and there but not as often or as bad as it was previously. I do have a power head about 6 inches from the intake tube, but its at the top of the tank and is used to disturb the water surface. It has an option to inject air but I don't use it. The canister is on the right back side of the tank. On the left back side is a penguin 350 HOB filter using both the low and mid-level strainers.

Currently, the canister isn't showing signs of air on its own. It's when I give it a little shake that it shows up. I guess I could just not shake it, but its concerning to me for long term use, I don't want to ruin the motor and canisters are supposed to be sealed environments...so air in it can't be good...


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wonder how it would be completely with the stock media. It sounds like the air that is in there is collecting in places. I guess it should not be in there to begin with. I know that if my CO2 gets pushed into my canister it can create havoc. Only happened once when I was doing maintenance.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I think you're right. I initially put my old filter pads in there to seed the bioballs. I would think after a month or more that the old pads could be removed. Hard to believe three thin extra pads could cause a problem, but I'll pull them during my next canister cleaning.


----------



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

So I just had an interesting thought that I think may hold some merit... 

You say you have your rings and bio balls in the bottom two baskets, right? And then above them you have the floss basket and above that the sponge basket?

I think you have air bubbles trapped up under the floss and sponge that aren't breaking up and can't get through the filter media, so it's making the bio balls rattle around and trap a bunch of air, and when you shake it up, it breaks up some of the bubbles small enough to pass through the sponge, but not everything... 

I have mine setup the exact opposite... From bottom to top I have Sponge > Floss > Bio-Balls > Ceramic Rings > Polishing Pad > Retaining Grate... The air bubbles rise to the top, and there is nothing to trap them if a couple of air bubbles get retained in the bio balls or rings... A quick shake and they all come up to the top and get spit out of the spray bar... Whoosh! Also, with the sponge and filter floss in the bottom two baskets, this prevents a bunch of gunk and funky nasty stuff from getting all over my biological media... And the less I have to attempt to rinse bio-balls the better... Those things float all over the place... Haha

Anyway, just thought I would share that hypothesis... I think it's because you may have the filter media out of order... Try sponge on bottom, then filter floss, then bio balls, then rings, and see how that works!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Which one of you is not setup like the instructions say? Most filters I have ever seen ceramic rings are first, followed by some type of bio and then a polishing pad or mechanical filtration.

I would still put as the OEM says and go from there.


----------



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Looking at the parts check diagram, it shows foam at the bottom, then charcoal (which I substituted with floss), then bio balls, then rings... 

This is an upflow canister so the water path flows down a tube to the bottom of the canister, and back up through the baskets... So the way I have mine set up, it flows through mechanical first, then through the biological... Makes sense to me to have the first stage be mechanical, as I don't want fish food, poo, or other debris in my bio media

At least I don't think I should have that in my bio media...


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That sounds like you could potentially hamper the flow by putting foam first. Certainly, if you suck in a lot of debris or material it is going to affect the water flowing through it. Which means more frequent cleaning and tearing apart of the filter or a least removal of all the baskets regularly. If it were a large filter, some of mine weigh in excess of 60lbs when full, it would have to go.

But, if the filters is setup like OEM specifies and the air bubble problem is still present, I'd be looking to return it.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I have my ceramic rings on the bottom to help diffuse the flow of water when it comes in. That way it's not just swirling around chaotically, and helps to settle some of the larger particulates. Then I let it pass through the first layer of coarse foam. After most of the large stuff is caught, it proceeds to the next level where currently I have old hob pads and bio balls. By then, most of the particulates of medium t large size should be caught before it proceeds to the next layer of bio balls, and finally, passes through the final layer of floss and coarse foam. I think this is probably the most efficient way for it to be set up once I remove the small hob pads. Could be wrong though.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Ok so today I did my monthly massive water change (as opposed to my weekly small wc) and decided now is as good a time as any to go ahead and pull out the canister and give it a look. I removed the old hob pads that were in the canister and they were filthy. No wonder my flow was suffering. Anyways, I also rearranged the tray setup and reverted back to OEM setup with the coarse foam on the bottom followed by two trays of bio balls and a fourth and final tray of ceramic rings topped with floss and the slotted plate. 

First thing I noticed: even higher output than right after I cleaned my tubes.
Second: no air, at least not yet. I'll need to give it a couple days to be sure the problem is solved.

Findings will be posted in a few days.

One question: if the bio balls are supposed to house the BB, what's the point of the ceramic rings??


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

MriGuy85 said:


> One question: if the bio balls are supposed to house the BB, what's the point of the ceramic rings??


They are the same IMO.You could do one or the other or keep it the same ,it probly won't make a measurable difference eitherway.
For the record I believe they will say that the bio balls have more surface area then most other bio products,and since our BB attaches to surface then they are(supposedly) better.


----------



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Eheim markets the ceramic rings as Mechanical media under the name EHEIM Mech

Products

Marineland markets theirs as biological media under the name Ceramic Filter Rings.

Perhaps one is more porous than the other? Perhaps they serve both purposes, and Marineland puts them in the top as a supplemental biological bed and final mechanical step before hitting the polishing pad and exiting the unit?

Glad it's working better for you... I recently re-routed and took about a foot of unnecessary length off my hoses. I didn't clean them out at that point, although I should have... There was some pretty funky nasty buildup in the hoses.... Slimy stuff, in both the overflow and the return hoses...

It's not an issue with flow... yet... But if it can build up that much in a month, I can only imagine what it would look like in three or more months with no cleaning


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Dam17, I rerouted my hoses as well, losing about a foot or so of curving hose on the intake side. I moved my intake pipe about 6 inches away from my output, putting them both on the back right side of my tank. Some would argue that's too close to the output. I say it's not a problem since the output is so high, blowing the water clear to the middle of the tank at least. I also have a HOB penguin 350 on the opposite side of the tank with the intake deep in the tank, and a power head in the middle of the tank stirring everything up, for good measure.

As far as the rings go, I think they're a double benefit. Being that they're a rough texture, it does give lots of surface area for BB to grab on to and I've seen lots of crap get caught in them when I had them in the bottom of the filter. At the top, I don't think they'll catch much, as the idea is to get all the large particulates removed by the time the water gets to the top. The high gloss, smooth rings are probably only good for mechanical filtration since they're not porous enough for BB to grab on to anything.

So far, I've only seen a very few tiny short bursts of air, and nothing in the last few hours leading me to believe it is working as is should by blowing out whatever air is in the filter during priming and leaving a sealed system. *w3


----------



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

My input and output are right next to each other... I also put mine on the right side of the tank so the hoses never cross over each other behind the tank... They run side by side the whole way. But I am using a spray bar that basically run the entire width of the tank... And the intake strainer is way at the bottom... 

I don't think it's an issue to run them close together like that, especially in your case where you have a powerhead / recirc pump... 

Here is a pic of my setup after moving things around... Oh, and the 50/50 lamp too, love how things are looking now


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

That's a great looking tank, and beautiful fish. I have a package coming tomorrow, it's the lifegard customflo water upgrade set that will have a mid and low level intake and a spraybar attachment on the output as well as a mid/low level output nozzle. I'm sure the spray bar will not be anywhere near long enough to span the 55g I have, but it won't matter as I will still have the hob on the opposite side. It will probably mean that I can either use the maxijet as a propeller driven circulation pump instead of the power head I'm using it as now, or just ditch it all together..for now. I'm sure ill find a reason to use it. What an addiction this hobby is. I have some pretty major circulation in the tank now and everyone seems to love it. Especially my rubberlip Pleco and corys.

I'll post an updated pic on e everything is set. The blue light is awesome. My favorite setting on my LED hoods.


----------



## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm happy to report that after a week of use my canister no longer has an air issue. 

In this time I have rearranged the material inside, removed some of it, and installed a new plumbing kit, so I'm not sure what change helped it but even a good shake yields no air bursts.


----------

