# Critique/help with my game plan



## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

So far I have my 27 gal hex tank filled with water and the filter running with a gravel bottom.

My ultimate goal is to have a planted tank with a dozen (plus or minus a few) fish.

Here are my thoughts moving forward:
1) Buy a more powerful air pump to pump water low enough in the tank to my air stone

2) a) Start cycling tank by adding ammonia.
b) Put some plants in and some water and gravek from the LFS to speed up the cycle.

3) During that process make a DIY CO2 system since we want a decent amount of plants

4) Add fish once cycled.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

1) dont need an air pump with live plants, its more harm then good during daylight hours.

the rest sound good but I do not use chemical cycling methods, cant find ammonia without some ingredient in it for smell and nothing pure.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't add plants if you're doing a fishless cycle. The object of a fishless cycle is to drive your ammonia high immediately to kickstart the whole process. Since plants consume the ammonia it defeats the purpose.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> 1) dont need an air pump with live plants, its more harm then good during daylight hours.
> 
> the rest sound good but I do not use chemical cycling methods, cant find ammonia without some ingredient in it for smell and nothing pure.


That's good news with the pump. I should have also stated that the ammonia cycling was contingent upon me finding some pure ammonia. If I can't what should I cycle with?

What are some hardy fish and/or a good ingredient to get the cycle started? Betta perhaps?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I wouldn't add plants if you're doing a fishless cycle. The object of a fishless cycle is to drive your ammonia high immediately to kickstart the whole process. Since plants consume the ammonia it defeats the purpose.


If the plants are that efficient at removing ammonia I shouldn't have to worry too much after I add a fish or 2, correct?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

if you do use fish, id use a few zebra danios, they are pretty hardy fish and with plants your spikes wont be enough to kill them.

especially if you are seeding the tank with used filter media and or gravel


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

So far so good...
Here is what we've accomplished so far:

1) Last thursday filled the tank with water and stuck the heater in to bring the water to temp.

2) Friday the filter came in and I set it up so it could run for a couple of days.

3) Saturday we went to the LFS and bought some lighting, a DIY CO2 setup, and 2 Amazon Swords and a large Wisteria and planted them in our gravel substrate.

4) Sunday went and bought 6 Harlequin Rasboras.

5)Sunday night ammonia was 0ppm and pH was 7.2 (Fed fish 1 crushed up flake)

6) Monday all day ammonia was 0.25 ppm and pH was 7.2 aside from night time which was 7.6 (Fed fish 1 crushed up flake)

7) Tuesday morning ammonia was 0 ppm and NitrItes were 0ppm and pH was 7.2 again. The CO2 finally started to flow after a couple of days and I think that helped the pH.

So far everything has gone very smoothly, I haven't even had to do a water change yet and looks like I won't need one today either. The swords are a little brown but I suspect that's from the shock of changing systems.

If everything still looks great this weekend coming up I'll probably go and add a baby angel fish and look for some rocks/driftwood, and one more plant. Either that or my girlfriend might want to add some Corys or something to eat the food that falls to the bottom.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I vote with your girlfriend for the corys (although I'd go for a brochis, practically the same thing, just handsomer) in a new tank, having the cleaning crew in place is a good thing.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

chris oe said:


> I vote with your girlfriend for the corys (although I'd go for a brochis, practically the same thing, just handsomer) in a new tank, having the cleaning crew in place is a good thing.


Yeah you're right, patience will pay off.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Corydoras are not for a brand new tank. there isnt enough for them to eat therefore youd have to feed them directly or overfeed the tank to insure they get some kibble.

Just keep it the way it is livestock wise for atleast 4 weeks. possibly 6, but within 4 weeks with lots of plants you will be cycled.
Yes plants chew it up however a little extra food will start to build the good bacteria in your filter media without throwing off the parameters.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> Corydoras are not for a brand new tank. there isnt enough for them to eat therefore youd have to feed them directly or overfeed the tank to insure they get some kibble.
> 
> Just keep it the way it is livestock wise for atleast 4 weeks. possibly 6, but within 4 weeks with lots of plants you will be cycled.
> Yes plants chew it up however a little extra food will start to build the good bacteria in your filter media without throwing off the parameters.


Even if the numbers are not budging?

I know I'm a little ahead of myself but I'm thinking in hypotheticals. Now if the numbers are still 0, 0, and pH holds steady wouldn't it logically only add bacteria if there is extra ammonia the plants can't handle? So the tank probably won't "cycle" in the way it is traditionally thought of correct?

Ultimately in my head the only thing that matters is if the ammonia, nitrIte, and to a lesser extent nitrAte stay at 0 regardless of bacteria levels...

With that said I'm aware I could still have quite a spike thus rendering everything I have stated to this point moot.

I know you and many others have gone through this (probably many times) so trust me I'm not ignoring your advice, just playing devil's advocate and what my gut it telling me.

On another hand, what is the best way to replace trace minerals the plants thrive on? Also how would I know when to and how much to replace?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Liquid or dry ferts and root tabs will take care of the trace that the plants NEED.

yep even if the numbers arent budging, I dont ever add any cleaning fish till a month after the tank is cycled. this gives time for the plant roots to absorb the trace minerals in the water and substrate and wont starve the catfish.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> Liquid or dry ferts and root tabs will take care of the trace that the plants NEED.
> 
> yep even if the numbers arent budging, I dont ever add any cleaning fish till a month after the tank is cycled. this gives time for the plant roots to absorb the trace minerals in the water and substrate and wont starve the catfish.


Gotcha, thanks for the help.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

no problem, I mean its your tank do what you want however know that the gravel bed isnt so much toxic as it is rife with everything that was in the water that settled to the bottom, including poo and fungi covered bits of food and such. Once some BB gets established in the gravel the fungi will stop then its safer to add cleaner crew members.

I set all tanks up to run for the first month without cleaner crews. I do not fishless cycle any tanks so that I cant offer advice on. I always cycle my tank with zebra danios as they are a hardy fish, the trick is to not put too many in as to overload the filters and cause spikes, minimizing the spike risks go a long way in establishing a closed environment, fish and plants will be healthier in the long run as well. 
I still have the same 6 zebra danios I use for cycling for over 3 years now, they have cycled quite a few tanks and are doing great. Just let the tank be for the first month and test twice daily and you will be fine.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

I think one thing you may wish you had done is add something beneath the gravel, such as eco-complete, flourite, or just plain soil. A lot of the planted tank sorts add a layer like one of those to help the plants. I went with the 'beaslbob style', with a layer of peat moss, then a layer of sand, and then some gravel/pro-choice select on top. That said, my other tank doesn't have anything but plain gravel, and it seems okay too, its just hard to re-do a tank once it is all set and is full of fish.

The other thing I would say is that plants love scissors. Don't be afraid to trim some things and use the clippings to start new plants. I've found my wisteria does great from clippins, and you can fill in your tank a lot quicker. 

I'm just starting in the planted tanks, but I wish I'd given more thought to my 30G.. Good luck!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> If the plants are that efficient at removing ammonia I shouldn't have to worry too much after I add a fish or 2, correct?


+1

Going with a fully planted tank right from the start and adding fish slowly will prevent the ammonia spikes.

Which is how I start up my tanks.

my .02


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks again everyone!

This morning I read 7.0 pH, 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrIte, 5 ppm nitrAte. All this after adding the fish 3 days ago.

I assume that's all I was looking for. I know adding additional fish only a week after starting the tank seems fast but all my numbers are exactly what I was looking for so I might go for it depending on what the numbers are by Saturday.

At a minimum I'm definitely adding another plant and some stones and driftwood.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So you have 6 fish, right?

I know you have plants, but you still want to go slow. You don't want to out pace their capabilities at this point. Some of the readings take a little bit of time to show. I wouldn't add anymore fish until you were sure your cycle is complete and that may be another 3-6wks.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes 6.

I'll listen to all of you more experienced people and wait a little longer on the fish. I am going to add another plant this weekend though.

If nitrAtes are showing does that mean the bacteria are in place for the demands we have put on it thus far? 
Would the logical next step be to up the feeding frequency to what the normal schedule would be and let the tank adjust to that? So far we have done 1+ flakes crushed up per day. We've been using the Ammonia and nitrIte levels to determine when and how much to feed. All of our rasboras are only an inch long at most so far so it's not like they need much food yet anyways.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

If you have zero ammonia, zero nitrite and your nitrate is showing up, yes you can start upping your feeding of the fish you have. What do you all think? This would be the point I would start doing partial water changes weekly. Is it too soon?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Largely up to you. If you're keeping on top of your testing and got a handle on what your tank is doing right now, I'd say feed normally. Adjust as necessary.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> Yes 6.
> 
> I'll listen to all of you more experienced people and wait a little longer on the fish. I am going to add another plant this weekend though.
> 
> ...


not necessarily.

the ammonia->nitrite->nitrate cycle is with bacteria only.

With live plants it is entirely normal even expected that the plants prevent the ammonia spikes by getting their nitrogen from ammonia. During that time they consume less nitrates. So you get 0 ammonia but some nitrates.

As the bacteria build up and consumer more ammonia then the nitrates drop down.

So with a planted operation it is the final nitrAte drop the signals the build up of bacteria. as opposed to the ammonia nitrIte spikes then the build up of nitrates with the bacteria only cycle.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> not necessarily.
> 
> the ammonia->nitrite->nitrate cycle is with bacteria only.
> 
> ...


Ok makes sense. Might as well wait for that point.

Is there a point (ignoring aesthetics) that you have too many plants for your aquarium to handle?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

yep, but thats when the scissors come in handy.
I sell all my trimmings or give them away.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> Ok makes sense. Might as well wait for that point.
> 
> Is there a point (ignoring aesthetics) that you have too many plants for your aquarium to handle?


could be.

If you start with enough plants and add fish slowly the plants just keep up with the fish load growing faster with the larger fish loads.

If they plants expand enough they simply grow slower.

It is kinda hard to get to the place where the plants die back from lack of nutrients though.


my .02


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

pH, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates all look good still

Finally did my first water change yesterday. Tank made it a week and according to the #s I really didn't NEED to do it but I had to top off anyways due to evap. Plus I thought adding some trace mins back into the water for the plants can't hurt.


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## Martini2108 (Jul 23, 2010)

Just a comment on the zebras, love em myself have used the same zebras to cycle all my tanks great fish have lost a couple but out of original 8 have 5 left.


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