# mythoughts on marine tanks (low maint or otherwise)



## beaslbob

In Fw forum:



nereus7 said:


> Hey besal can you elaborate on how you incorporate your low maintainence techniques into your keeping of saltwater tanks? I'm familiar with how you represent them applied to sweet water from previous threads, I'm intrigued as to how you apply it to the salt water. Thanks bud - Nereus
> 
> (maybe we should start a new thread, this one's getting alittle all over the place)


Sure. But these ideas apply to all marine tanks.

basic: get the plant life thriving then do the rest.

reason the plant life balances out the fish load and stablilizes operation.

So in a marine environment you use macro algae or even just algae instead of plants.

Start the tank with macros like chaeto of caulerpa profilera. best in an in tank or external refugium.

then let it set a week.

then accilimate a single Fw molly and not add food for a week. 

then add a female or two and start feeding a single flake per day.

let it all run for a month or two then try some marine fish. 

Return mollies to LFS for credit.

Some added stuff I did was to culture phyto and rotifers to feed corals.

in 8 years of my 55g I used only 2 bags of salt.

I do add a pinch of my wages pickling lime for top offs but do no water changes.

I also did the diy two part to maintain calcium alk magnesium.

the 55g had a yellow tang, blue regal (dori) tang. and at one time a 6-8" saltwater carfish, couple of clowns,a couple of psuedochromis, banguii (sp) cardnal (5" top to bottom). You get the idea.


I did have a diy wet dry (a wastbasket with the bottom replaced with a screen) using crushed oyster shells as filter media. My 29g had only a refugium for filtration. Both tanks had unmesureable nitrates and phosphates.

So like I said basically the same is the FW only using algae instead of plants plus the diy 2 part.

my .02


----------



## Nereus7

Ok I got you, that makes sense (i'm a bit of a saltwater rookie so I don't know too much about the minerals needed)

You said add a FW molly, is this before you add the salt, or with it full on salt in the tank?

As far as the returning them for store credit once your done, that may be cheating the system a little too much for me. I'm sure karma wouldn't hold back if I did that. Seems kind of mean if you're the mollys too.

Anyways, I'm guessing you're saying start a fw tank, cycle it then get rid of the fw fish, and add salt basicly converting it over to saltwater? 

You said start the plants first, chaeto of caulerpa profilera is saltwater right? So you can't grow it in FW can you?

Why would you start a cycle with a FW fish? Aren't there some SW fish to start the cycle, if you choose not to go fishless? I'm guessing the molly's would take a pretty good hit on the chin trying to breath SW.

Let me know what you think - Nereus


----------



## Reefing Madness

Mollies are actually better suited for Salt Water than they are Fresh Water. Can be acclimated to SW in a matter of 3-4 hours. I've done it, to bad my Trigger thought they were dinner though......Was mad that night I can tell you. May put them back in also. Anyways, these are elcheapo fish to start with, and they being that they are better suited for SW, believe it or not they are better suited to a Cycle than any other fish, extremely hardy fish. But, being of sound mind and body, I do not advise anyone to use fish for their cycling process.
What Bob won't tell you is, that he thinks that utilizing very little plant life in a SW tank will keep your water parameters in good shape, which is complete BS. There are recommendations for sump sizes based off what size your DT is for a reason, the bigger the sump, the more Cheato, plant life you can grow, the better your water quality will be. So when he recommends intank sumps, I tend to blow my lid off because they really need to be decent size, and therfore take up alot of tank space inorder to be of any help to the Aqaurist. But, HOB SUmps can do the job also, provided you also get a big enough box to grow out the plant life. Now, hows that for stabbing the minimalist idea. Sorry Bob, I can poke holes in your theories all day my man.


----------



## Rob72

you should post pics of your tanks so we can see what you are talking about, if your methods are as good as you say, lets see im interested in doing a sw tank let me see how yours are done


----------



## Nereus7

Mollys can go from FW to SW in 3-4 hours?! I had no idea. I would have figured if they were even capable, it would be a few weeks/drip type of thing.

Are they one of those, go out to sea to breed, and the babies hand out in FW until its their time to breed? I'll have to do some research on them. Thanks - Nereus


----------



## Nereus7

Check that out, I had no idea. I've only ever seen them fw. From the search I just did it says its better to set them up even brackish that fw. Learn something new everyday..


----------



## Reefing Madness

Nereus7 said:


> Check that out, I had no idea. I've only ever seen them fw. From the search I just did it says its better to set them up even brackish that fw. Learn something new everyday..


*w3


----------



## Nereus7

Alright, so I'm kind of picking up what you're putting down.

In tank ref. means no need for a pump. Out of tank, you'd need a pump.
I'm guessing the lights are kind of mandatory for the corals etc. and add a heater. So you're still using electricity right?

From seeing the FW I was thinking you were doing it all non electricity. That makes sense, it seems like it would work once you get all your balances right. Do you think you could pull this off in something as small as a 20 gal? Thanks again - Nereus

(also, do you add anything to blow current onto the soft corals?)

And while Im at it, do you think polyps would be compatible?
And ..... if I were just wanting to set up a few polyps etc with no fish, how does that effect the whole Nitrate situation?

(sorry, you're actually reading this as my brain is thinking it.. I should probably sit back and pencil down some questions and put them in some kind of proper form but.... too late now)


----------



## whitetiger61

Nereus7 said:


> Alright, so I'm kind of picking up what you're putting down.
> 
> In tank ref. means no need for a pump. Out of tank, you'd need a pump.
> I'm guessing the lights are kind of mandatory for the corals etc. and add a heater. So you're still using electricity right?
> 
> From seeing the FW I was thinking you were doing it all non electricity. That makes sense, it seems like it would work once you get all your balances right. Do you think you could pull this off in something as small as a 20 gal? Thanks again - Nereus
> 
> (also, do you add anything to blow current onto the soft corals?)
> 
> And while Im at it, do you think polyps would be compatible?
> And ..... if I were just wanting to set up a few polyps etc with no fish, how does that effect the whole Nitrate situation?
> 
> (sorry, you're actually reading this as my brain is thinking it.. I should probably sit back and pencil down some questions and put them in some kind of proper form but.... too late now)


Nereus7

Im not going to bash with my post , but i will say this..he does not have any pics of his tanks up on the forum for a reason..i will let you decide what that reason is..
as for tank size..in saltwater ..bigger is always better..i have managed to keep a 3 gallon reef sucessfully for over 2 years before i decide i wanted a 3 gallon planted tank and put everything in the seahorse tank but i was using a HOB filter a powerheads with tons of flow..I dont know how much experience you have, but i wouldnt recommend anything under 55 gallon to anyone with under 4 years experience in saltwater..things can and will go very bad in a saltwater tank in a very short amount of time, and it never fails it almost always happens at night when your asleep and cant do anything about it.
anyway if you decide you want to try this..good luck

Rick


----------



## Nereus7

I'm just taking notes. I'm a "read all the books" and then apply so I figured I'd hear what he has to say. No harm no foul. Good heads up on recommending I don't go smaller than a 55. I appreciate it. - Nereus


----------



## phil_n_fish

thats a creative theory. But I think it has too many variables. I wouldnt ever agree in not feeding a fish for a week. Its like not feeding a dog for a week. Instead of not feeding the fish, you should just feed the fish and scoop out any uneaten food just like what it says on the back of the package. 
Another thing is algae are plants. I would just start with dry rock then throw in alittle live rock and sand to boost it. This would introduce algae including coralline algae. 
I like the idea that you only went through 2 bags of salt. I havent done a water change in forever because my biological and chemical filtration keeps my water clean. In result, I have to put in trace elements every week. 

Mollys are one of the hardy fish that can go from fresh to salt. Its easier for fish to go from fresh to salt but not the other way around. for example, a molly can go to salt, but if you put a clown fish in freshwater, it will swell up and explode because there wouldnt be any salt to help retain water in the cells.


----------



## Sasquatch

I remember back in the 80's when I started my first salt water tank..I just temp acclimated a couple of mollies (15min) threw them in there..It was nt long before I had many more 
I dont bother adding trace elements to my water since I do a 10 gal water change about every two weeks..I guess you can buy salt or you can buy elements.. atleast with my water changes I can vacuum the substrate and such.

I grow chaeto in my sump and every once in awhile I put some in my main tank but its like a snack for the critters and is gone in a few days.


----------



## beaslbob

think a lot has been answered but here are mine anyway. *old dude




Nereus7 said:


> Ok I got you, that makes sense (i'm a bit of a saltwater rookie so I don't know too much about the minerals needed)
> 
> You said add a FW molly, is this before you add the salt, or with it full on salt in the tank?


this is starting out the tank full salt. FW plants won't make it to salt and most macros are for marine only as far as I know. But interesting thought as some macros can be Fw from what I hear.


> As far as the returning them for store credit once your done, that may be cheating the system a little too much for me. I'm sure karma wouldn't hold back if I did that. Seems kind of mean if you're the mollys too.


our lfs here does exactly that for damsels. So that is obvioulsy a cycle fish for those who want to. once in full marine you don't return them to FW. Years ago I returned my mollies to another LFS which now is outta business. They were amazed mollies were in salt and stated many of their customers were surprised also.


> Anyways, I'm guessing you're saying start a fw tank, cycle it then get rid of the fw fish, and add salt basicly converting it over to saltwater?


 start full marine.


> You said start the plants first, chaeto of caulerpa profilera is saltwater right? So you can't grow it in FW can you?


true


> Why would you start a cycle with a FW fish? Aren't there some SW fish to start the cycle, if you choose not to go fishless? I'm guessing the molly's would take a pretty good hit on the chin trying to breath SW.


two reasons. first mollies are $3 or so. interesting marine fish are at least $10 and probably 30 or more. Second if the newbie can aclimate a FW molly to salt it will be much easier to acclimate a marine fish. FWIW I do fisn in cycles for both Fw amd marine. And with the plant life there are no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes. The fish show no signs of stress. Always active breathing normally and so on.


> Let me know what you think - Nereus


I think its really really good this forum, this thread, and you are asking questions.

Still just my .02


----------



## beaslbob

phil_n_fish said:


> thats a creative theory. But I think it has too many variables. *I wouldnt ever agree in not feeding a fish for a week*. Its like not feeding a dog for a week. Instead of not feeding the fish, you should just feed the fish and scoop out any uneaten food just like what it says on the back of the package.
> 
> ...
> 
> .


I understand completely.

I will almost guarantee that if you feed that fish the first week it will be on the bottom barely moving and breathing fast on the third day. And die on the fifth day. Just like clockwork. that way my experience with a dozen or two tanks my for 3 decades as I traveled around int he air force. So one time I said this is a waste of food and didn't feed him. to my surprise that first fish lived. And every tank I have started since than.

If you makes you feel any better the fish is not starvig. Plenty of food on the plants. helps control snails as well. *old dude

my .02


----------



## Reefing Madness

beaslbob said:


> I understand completely.
> 
> I will almost guarantee that if you feed that fish the first week it will be on the bottom barely moving and breathing fast on the third day. And die on the fifth day. Just like clockwork. that way my experience with a dozen or two tanks my for 3 decades as I traveled around int he air force. So one time I said this is a waste of food and didn't fiid him. to my surprise that first fieh lived. And every tank I have started since than.
> 
> If you makes you feel any better the fish is not starvig. Plenty of food on the plants.
> 
> my .02


none4*mallet


----------



## Nereus7

Uh oh, RM's bustin out the mallet. 

Not to start trouble but, I've read in more place than one that if your fish have been on a good feeding schedule and have good fat stores you can go up to a week without feeding, in the event you go out of town etc. I'll venture out on a limb here and say fish are cold blooded, so it's not actually the same as not feeding a dog for a week. What is it, about 70 percent of what we warm bloods eat, just goes to heat.

Also, there's something to be said for dealing with the stress of FW to SW conversion on an empty stomach. Good fat stores, empty stomach. Full stomach's create problems in times of trial. Reptile, human, or otherwise really.. - Nereus


----------



## Nereus7

Also, I'm thinking if you have to scoop out uneaten food you might be over doing it, even in an established system. I think the angle I would work is to add small piece by piece and see if I couldn't get it so the food never even makes it to the aquarium floor. It'll save your levels, water change supplies, wear and tear on the fish etc. You know what I'm sayin'.. Instead of chuckin' an entire pizza at your friends face, get the slicer out and chuck it slice by slice, less floor to clean up *pc


----------



## Nereus7

I'm back to thinking thoughts 1 at a time.. :

Beasl, I appreciate the info. What are some corals, polyps, dusters etc you've kept like this. Have any problems etc?.. And, do you think you would have to change anything up if you didn't have any fish, just corals?

You think you could scrap the chaeto all toghether and just treat it basiclly like a FW planted tank w/ no fish? Thanks again - Nereus7


----------



## beaslbob

Nereus7 said:


> I'm back to thinking thoughts 1 at a time.. :
> 
> Beasl, I appreciate the info. What are some corals, polyps, dusters etc you've kept like this. Have any problems etc?.. And, do you think you would have to change anything up if you didn't have any fish, just corals?
> 
> You think you could scrap the chaeto all toghether and just treat it basiclly like a FW planted tank w/ no fish? Thanks again - Nereus7


It would probably be closer to a fw planted with or without fish then different. But there would still be differences.

Corals themselves act very similiar to extremely slow growing plants. So if you get enough desirable algae like corralin on live rocks and halimeda plus keep the bio load with corals you can balance out they system.

I my tanks I had various soft corals which did fine and even better once I started spot feeding them cyclopeeze. The fish went crasy for that also. And of course the micro algae and rotifers helped also.

I did not have much success with sps type corals or anemones. Probably because I was using NO type lights.

my .02


----------



## whitetiger61

I want to see his saltwater tanks with some pics..i dont think thats to difficult of a request. only way im going to believe it is if i see it..Ive done saltwater a number of years..i know how it goes..

Rick


----------



## phil_n_fish

beaslbob said:


> I understand completely.
> 
> I will almost guarantee that if you feed that fish the first week it will be on the bottom barely moving and breathing fast on the third day. And die on the fifth day. Just like clockwork. that way my experience with a dozen or two tanks my for 3 decades as I traveled around int he air force. So one time I said this is a waste of food and didn't feed him. to my surprise that first fish lived. And every tank I have started since than.
> 
> If you makes you feel any better the fish is not starvig. Plenty of food on the plants. helps control snails as well. *old dude
> 
> my .02


All my fish that I fed on the first day did fine. I always made sure my tank was cycled or atleast close to being cycled before adding in my first fish by using inverts like crab and snails since I would need them anyway for a cleaning crew. Your ammonia will spike no matter if you feed the fish or not. If the fish are breathing hard then the tank is not ready for a fish due to the really high ammonia levels. 
I like your theory but I dont agree on rushing. It takes time to make diamonds.


----------



## phil_n_fish

Nereus7 said:


> I'm back to thinking thoughts 1 at a time.. :
> 
> Beasl, I appreciate the info. What are some corals, polyps, dusters etc you've kept like this. Have any problems etc?.. And, do you think you would have to change anything up if you didn't have any fish, just corals?
> 
> You think you could scrap the chaeto all toghether and just treat it basiclly like a FW planted tank w/ no fish? Thanks again - Nereus7


I would never add coral to a cycling tank. Coral can be harmed by the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc while the tank is cycling. 

There are hardy coral but still should never be put in a cycling tank.


----------



## snail

phil_n_fish said:


> I would never add coral to a cycling tank. Coral can be harmed by the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc while the tank is cycling.
> 
> There are hardy coral but still should never be put in a cycling tank.


I agree



> You think you could scrap the chaeto all toghether and just treat it basiclly like a FW planted tank w/ no fish? Thanks again - Nereus7


Corals are not plant's they are animals. They add to the bioload of your tank, they don't filter it like plants do. Chaeto is an algae, algae are like plants and can be used to filter a FW tank. Live rock is probably the most common way of filtering a SW tank it contains bacteria like the filter media in a FW tank.

As for feeding, I agree that fish are not like dogs. Most fish will be fine without food for a couple of days, even a week. If you have to scoop out food you are feeding too much. Even feeding until the fish won't eat more is too much, most fish will eat much more than they need to given the chance. In the wild this gives them the chance to store up reserves for days they can't find food. In the aquarium it just makes for dirty water and fat, unhealthy fish. A week is about the longest I would feel comfortable with not feeding for though.


----------



## katanamasako

I'm with whitetiger on this. Before you start dishing out the advice, i'd first have photos to back it up. or supply them if someone asks. I say this because, you may be able to see this yourself, but for smart people, if there is no proof (pics) there must be a reason there is no proof.


----------



## fishguy2727

Don't use caulerpa, it can crash your tank one day. Stick to Chaeto. And only do it in an external fuge (in a sump), not in the display.

Don't use mollies, this is very old school, like using damsels but even worse since they aren't even sw. 

If you only used that little salt you weren't doing enough water changes. YOU may have lucked out (or rather your fish did) and didn't have everything die because of that, but others will likely not be as lucky, not a good recommendation.

Three main stages of setting up a saltwater tank:

1: Get all your equipment running (sump, skimmer, powerheads, etc.). Make sure the temp, salinity (buy a refractometer, does use a guesso-meter aka hydrometer), and pH are correct. Only use RO water. Use tap if you want an algae farm. Use a high quality salt.

2: Get all your live rock. Don't use damsels, mollies, or rotting food to cycle a tank. The live rock will cycle the tank as it cures. This takes 2 weeks to 2 months. More time is always better. Once the ammonia and nitrite are back down to 0 do a large water change (or a few) to get the nitrate back under control (under 10ppm).

3: Stock, do your maintenance, and enjoy. You can start adding fish and corals at the same time. For fish you should have a final stock list written down and add the least aggressive fish first. The most aggressive should go in last. For corals start with less demanding, hardier corals like zoanthids, mushrooms, Xenia, etc. Move up to LPS and SPS with time, limited mainly by your lighting. Do not start adding lots of additives for the heck of it. If you think you need to add something test for it and dose as needed. Don't start adding calcium and alkalinity just because you have a zoanthid frag. Do 10% weekly water changes and you will prevent 95% of the problems you would have had. Do water changes every 1-3 days when problems do arise and you will fix 95% of the problems you actually experience.


----------



## navigator black

I'm just a freshwater nerd reading saltwater postings, but I think I can actually bring something, since I am a molly freak. This may look like needless analysis, but it has practical applications, and I think it's interesting (at least to me).
First off, bear in mind that there are many molly species. All react differently to a marine environment. There is no such thing as a 'molly'.
The larger sailfins, like latipinna from the southeast US, velifera from Mexico, and orri and the undescribed species from southern North America/Central America are brackish species that move into salt water with no problem. They are fish of the freshwater/saltwater transitional zone, and as such, they can handle big fluctuations in salinity in short periods (tides). For us, they acclimate really quickly.
Some local populations of Florida's latipinna have adapted to pure freshwater now, and don't transition to saltwater as quickly. However, they need mineral rich, hard freshwater to thrive. Mexico has Poecilia petensis as a purely freshwater sailfin that doesn't occur in salt water. That phenomenon has also produced a number of inland species - mineral rich water, but no salt - fish like sphenops, mexicana, butleri, gillii and others in the hobby. They usually have smaller dorsal fins than the coastal fish.
When we started importing mollies a hundred years ago, it was a time of fancy breeding. The molly species crossbreed easily, and the result was the human creation of strains that don't exist in nature. They wanted black, and they wanted high fins. However, sailfins are delicate, and the males are really aggressive. They crossed sailfins with hardy, smaller inland species to reduce the size and aggro of the fish, and in so doing, they ensured that almost none of the mollies you buy in the pet trade have a direct relationship to wild forms, or have a scientific name. They're hybrids.
My advice to salt keepers who want mollies for cycling, or for a coastal Carribean tank (I have a point!) is to choose aquarium store hybrids with the largest dorsals possible, to ensure more of a chance of coastal genetics, and hopefully more salt tolerance. Or, in the south, collect your own and get real molly species. 
Mollies are not saltwater fish. Mollies aren't mollies. They are a complex of genetically distinct species found all across southern North America and northern South America (there's even a rainforest soft water molly that would die in salt, and one species that produces only females and clones). They are complicated little fish, and we have to take that into account.


----------



## fishguy2727

Although some wild mollies can tolerate full marine sailinity for extended periods of time, it is at their choice and they do go back in to brackish and freshwater. The mollies in stores are farm raised in freshwater for generations. Forcing them be in full marine all the time is harmful. Their kidneys simply can't handle it long term. It is also completely unnecessary since live rock will completely cycle a sw tank on its own, no need for ANY fish, certainly not salt-tolerant freshwater fish.


----------



## Reefing Madness

I'll let you know how long they can tolerate then. I plan on putting them back in my tank, for the pleasure of looking at them, not to cycle my tank.


----------



## navigator black

A friend showed me magnificent scuba pictures from the Yucatan, with Poecilia velifera mollies mixed in with some of the smaller saltwater species at the mouth of an underground cave tunnel leading from a cenote to the sea. They were absolutely stunning velifera, a species I have never sought because of the need for a degree of salinity. 
I'll go back to my freshwater now...and look at my absolute freshwater a day's hard drive from the sea wild caught mollies...


----------



## Reefing Madness

*rotating smile*rotating smile


----------



## Nereus7

Ok I'm reading what everyone's posting, I appreciate all the replies I think I'm starting to figure up from down. One question, fishguys in #2 of your post you said live rock can completely cycle a tank. If no fish or corals have been added, what's putting the ammonia and nitrate in there for the live rock to "eat"? I'm thinking it would be like freshwater bact. and gradually disappear for lack of food? Where do the ammonia and nitrates come from upon inital set up? - N


----------



## beaslbob

Nereus7 said:


> Ok I'm reading what everyone's posting, I appreciate all the replies I think I'm starting to figure up from down. One question, fishguys in #2 of your post you said live rock can completely cycle a tank. If no fish or corals have been added, what's putting the ammonia and nitrate in there for the live rock to "eat"? I'm thinking it would be like freshwater bact. and gradually disappear for lack of food? Where do the ammonia and nitrates come from upon inital set up? - N


IMHO the key is that even with no bacteria the plant life (macros) will prevent the spikes as bacteri does build up.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Live Rock usually does not come fully cured. When you put it in your tank it has whats called die off, this causes ammonia in the water, and thus begins the cycle. You may, if yoiu thinks its needed, throw a grocery store bought shrimp in there to get more of it going.


----------



## Nereus7

Ok define cured for me. Being a fw person if the media's seeded it's seeded. Would this be similar to if I were to take say a gallon of seeded ceramics from a highly stocked fw tank, and then run it on a tank with 1 guppy? The bact. dieing off due to no more bio load?

In my head, I'm thinking if your rocks live, and you were to add some nitrate eating plants like beelze says, you're pretty much cycled. 

Again I appreciate ya'll putting up with my rookie sw questions. It seem's I have much studying to do. - N


----------



## beaslbob

Nereus7 said:


> Ok define cured for me. Being a fw person if the media's seeded it's seeded. Would this be similar to if I were to take say a gallon of seeded ceramics from a highly stocked fw tank, and then run it on a tank with 1 guppy? The bact. dieing off due to no more bio load?
> 
> In my head, I'm thinking if your rocks live, and you were to add some nitrate eating plants like beelze says, you're pretty much cycled.
> 
> Again I appreciate ya'll putting up with my rookie sw questions. It seem's I have much studying to do. - N


Cured is simply live rocks that have been is saltwater until the ammonia/nitrIte spikes have cycled.

Live rock in shipment will have a die off of basically everything. So to cure it you need to run it in saltwater to let everything rot away.

my .02


----------



## Reefing Madness

beaslbob said:


> Cured is simply live rocks that have been is saltwater until the ammonia/nitrIte spikes have cycled.
> 
> Live rock in shippement will have a die off of basically everything. So to cure it you need to run it in saltwater to let everything rot away.
> 
> my .02


*Conf*

Don't you mean, uncured rock does not have the BACTERIA grown enough to handle the Trites and Ammonia quite yet..........
Cured Live Rock has been in SW long enough to have grown enough bacteria to sustain life in the tank. It has enough to remove the Ammonia and Nitrites in the tank. Die off is that part of the rock which in fact is dead, and will can be removed, and does fall off. Which in case creates more bacteria which eats the Ammonia and Trites that spike in the water.........The water does not carry enough bacteria for it to do anything on its own.


----------



## beaslbob

Reefing Madness said:


> *Conf*
> 
> Don't you mean, uncured rock does not have the BACTERIA grown enough to handle the Trites and Ammonia quite yet..........
> Cured Live Rock has been in SW long enough to have grown enough bacteria to sustain life in the tank. It has enough to remove the Ammonia and Nitrites in the tank. Die off is that part of the rock which in fact is dead, and will can be removed, and does fall off. Which in case creates more bacteria which eats the Ammonia and Trites that spike in the water.........The water does not carry enough bacteria for it to do anything on its own.


same thing. *old dude


----------



## Reefing Madness

Not the way you explained it, it isn't.


----------



## Nereus7

10-4, that makes sense. Kind of like stalling a car, and then bump starting it all in one swift motion  (if that's swift..)

It makes sense, take what ya'll are saying, add it to fishguy's 1-2-3, mix in what everyone else said and it sounds like a plan. I'm sure taking it from paper and actually making a go of it will be another matter all together, but I'm definatly getting the fundamentals of how to lay the "foundation". Pretty hard to believe this chain of events ever took off in nature, the perfectly timed, tuned, and balanced cluster... of events. Good deal, thanks guys - N


----------

