# GBR breeding journal



## coralbandit

So quite a while ago I pulled my German Blue Rams from my 180 and placed them in a 20Tall by themselves.A little less than amonth ago 1 pair laid eggs on a plant leave and they hatched but do to not being only pair in tank I don't see any fry anymore.I seperated the pairs(1 pair left in 20 tall and one pair in a 10g).The pair in the 20 tall have laid eggs again just last night!They laid the eggs on the sponge filter this time!So we'll see in a couple days if they fry have a better shot with just their parents this time.The other pair seem to very happy but I have not seen eggs yet.
Pics of the eggs to come!


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## Goby

That's awesome.


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## jamnigh

Awesome!!! Keep us updated!


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## coralbandit

Pics of eggs on sponge filter.


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## jamnigh

I really hope they make it!!


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## coralbandit

Eggs hatched last night.About 90% from what I can tell.This tank is heavy with moss and algae so I don't see any fry yet,but suspect they are in there hiding(they are tiny).If and when I can see them I'll try to get a pic for everyone.


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## jamnigh

Awesome!!


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## coralbandit

So I keep looking for fry (and I know they are tiny) and don't see any,BUT when looking nextdoor to them in my apisto tank I just found (saw) 2 fry and they are microscopic!I had suspected the apistos were/would breed but their tank is also heavy with java moss so never even saw eggs, but did notice 1 of the 3 females staying in a corner pile of moss for the last week or so.I saw one of the females suck the fry in and spit it out so my only idea is to add more java moss for hiding spots and as a great source of food(DONE!) Hopefully I'll be able to get pics of both tanks within a week that will show some or one fry at least(they're smaller than a dust spec now!).


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## jamnigh

You are just a fish breeding machine!


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## coralbandit

My wife says I try to breed every fish I get!I do!
My goal is simple;To put back more than I take.If I can then I have not effected our sometimes limited fish supply.It's also a satisfying feeling to know fish are happy enough to spawn and even better if you raise the fry.


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## jamnigh

Haha oh I agree there 100%. My wife "complains" that I try the same thing, she wants a guppy, I breed hundreds of them. I put a gourami in, the next week I am finding a female lol. Its a challenge and a reward, one of the best!


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## coralbandit

Have not spotted fry yet,but not to worry as the pair in the 10 have laid eggs .Will be watching these closely now also.


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## coralbandit

So the fry in the 10G have hatched!Here they are on a clay pot.


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## SueD

That is so cool. Hope you have great success rearing these. 

I just got 2 GBR's but have no idea what sex they are. Actually got 3 but one didn't make it.


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## coralbandit

So the same day I took the pic of the fry on their clay pot, they were gone!I've looked hard every day and just couldn't seem to find them.But today when I looked I could not believe my eyes!

It looks like hundreds of them swimming aaround the parents in the back of the tank!
I am so happy they have made it this far and can't wait to see what comes next!


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## SueD

Really nice! I want pick of the litter. Too bad these weren't a couple of months earlier. My son and his girlfriend were just in Saratoga for a weekend concert and they could have picked them up and brought them home for me.


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## coralbandit

So most of what I have read said the parents don't raise the fry and often eat them 2 days after freeswimming.So no chances being taken I have moved the parents to their next breeding tank(20 long).I have also read that the fry are among the most diffacult to raise so I really didn't want to take any extra chances.Only hours after moving the parents the fry have gone from a "cloud" like swarm to being scattered all over the tank.So hopefully I did the right thing and can raise some of these guys.Really seemed to be 1-2 hundred of them while swarming the parents so even 10%(I hope for much better)will be a decent return for my first attempt at raising these gems.My reading also found that most are saying GBR only live for 2-2 1/2 years which seems way to short for me!Anyone have them last longer?


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## coralbandit

Just checking in on this thread.It seems they are diffacult fry to raise.At best I find 3 at one time!Not even real sure there are more.This being the first bunch of GBR fry for me I won't complain,but I can hardly wait to try with next batch to do better!


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## jamnigh

Glad to hear there are at least a couple that made it so far!!


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## coralbandit

So there is at least 1 fry in the ten(maybe more but not many).This pair was moved to a 20 long and laid eggs again of which the fry are now free swiiming around the parents(many!).In the other 20 tall there are eggs on the pot.The 20 tall is loaded with MTS(snails) and I'm not so sure they didn't eat the eggs last time?Also some how a male swordtail has found his way into this tank from the 75gl directly above it(can't really figure out how he landed under his tank but this would seem to be the case).
I'm looking for any advice on feeding these tiny fry to see if I can get a higher intial survival rate?
Thanks!


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## coralbandit

So I may have left the parents with the fry too long.They didn't eat them all but there seems to be less or they are hiding better(tank is loaded with moss and plants.I'm trying to feed them infusoria,green water and decapsulated brine shrimp eggs.I'm also trying to hatch baby brine and maybe I'm doing ok,hard to tell,but I offer them also.Cleanning these tanks with the fry is basically impossible with out risking sucking them up as they are microscopic and free swimming.
So I read that many remove the fry(this seems impossible due to size) so I removed the parents again.Now they are in a 29gl.
There is 1 fry in the 10gl from first spawn definately growing,but I don't see anymore.
There are well over 100 in the 20long but still young and can't tell if they are eating or not,but they swim around!
All my reading indicates that raising the fry is harder than discus as the parents offer no help(at least that's what most reading says).One link said the parents possibly chew up food and spit it out to the fry(they sited that this is how apistos raise fry).There are also apisto fry in my 20 tall apisto tank.Unfortunately there are 4 apistos so I can't count on fry surviving,but this tank has become the source of green water(very green) so maybe it will help fry hide and survive?
Anyone with any sucess or info on feeding the fry ,I would love to hear from as I think this pair will keep breeding so I will keep trying(just like to get more to survive than I am so far).


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## SueD

I took a chance and got a pair of Apistos last Saturday and added to my 20 long. I think there are eggs, maybe even wrigglers already - is this possible? 

The female immediately took over the one flower pot in the tank shortly after being moved in and she and the male have been vigorously fending everybody off since then - two GBR's and three pygmy cories mostly. They seem fine with the guppies and swim among them to get the rams out. They seem to have claimed a really large territory in front.

I don't have much hope for any fry surviving given the rams are in there, but I thought it was interesting they bred so fast if that's what's going on. They are really interesting to watch. I've seen the female pick up pieces of substrate that moved into the flower pot and carry it and spit it outside. 

Good luck with yours and I look forward to seeing how your ram and apisto fry develop.


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## dalfed

Try the algae tank idea it worked for my scarlett badis and I have 15 apistos (that I can count) at 1/2 inch right now.


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## coralbandit

Sue the apistos definately could have spawned that quickly.Mine are always very active and out, except when one is tending the eggs/fry.If no tank for seperation is available possibly a seperator/tank divider would work.I'm running out of tanks to move the parent GBRs to so may be using a diviveder soon.
Dale the apistos are in green water so to speak right now loaded with moss and plants so I'm hoping.2 of the GBR tanks have plenty of algae going already so I'm hoping!


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## coralbandit

So quick update 2 days after parents have been removed.It appears the fry are eating decapsulated brine shrimp eggs.It is awesome to see them go after the eggs and there are probly close to 100 in the 20 long still.
In the 10 it appears there is only 1 fry but he grows and is clearly visable.Even hangs in one particular corner(territorial already?).
The parent were moved to a 1/2 filled 29gl with there flower pots,plants and appear happy,maybe eggs again soon as I have read they could spawn every 7 days or so(like the discus did),so I'm really going to be active with these two before they take they break.The more fry I can get the better I will learn about these beauties.
Feeling kind of hopeful at this point!Fingers always crossed!


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## coralbandit

So as predicted the pair has laid eggs in the 29gl!I'm pretty excited with these two as I am having reasonable success with the second round of fry.They seem to be doing very well with decapusalated brine shrimp eggs and frozen BBS.I do still add green water to tank and am actually able to make daily waterchanges as seeing and keeping track of the fry is getting easier(they're getting bigger!).


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## coralbandit

Well the eggs are gone(I think they hatched),but can't see any fry.Not really worried as these two have been excellent parents and think I'll see the fry in a day or two when they are free swimming.
I decided to conduct a little experiment.The pair in the 20 tall also laid a bunch of eggs (third or fourth time) but never tend the eggs.This tank also has probly a few too many MTS(not sure if they eat the eggs or not),but I have started removing and killing them.I figured if they don't tend the eggs and I never see any fry in the tank I might as well move the eggs to the 29 with the other pair(better parents) and possibly a load of 1-2 day old fry.It seems the parents are all good with the addition of a whole other clutch of eggs.Possibly this will work out and if both pairs stay on the same cycle I can get the one good pair to raise both sets of eggs.I did this way back with gouramis(I know not even close but)by using a seperator in a 30gl and two pairs of same species.By pulling the seperator and all but 1 male and he did take care of all the eggs and fry from both(The nest were both on seperator and formed one large nest ,poor guy pulling double duty).
So a little twist and hopefully another success in hatching but we'll have to see in a couple of days.
I moved the lone(1) fry from the first batch into the 20 long with the other fry(50 ish?) and he seems fine also.
Really enjoying any sucess I get with these guys as my discus just leave me wondering and disappointed.


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## SueD

That's really interesting that one pair might raise the fry of another pair. Good luck there. 

Also re: the snails and eggs. I wondered about that too as before my apisto eggs hatched I found one of the assassins in the tank on the front edge of the flower pot-cave where the eggs were. I picked it up and moved it to another part of the tank. Hours later it had made its way in the same direction again and while not yet on the pot, it was very near it. I decided to move it to another tank just to be safe. Today is day 7 of free swimming apisto fry.


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## coralbandit

it's a toss up to me whether the snails are eating the eggs(they do go right to where ever the eggs are{flower pot this time again}).the snails are really all over this tank more so than any tank I have.Or whether the parents aren't caring for the eggs,they are no where near the eggs,they stay hiding in the back of the tank while the eggs are laid on flower pot towards front right corner.I suppose I could have moved the pot closer to where they hang,but I figured they chose where the eggs are yet never tend them ,this is at least their fourth time.
Some how I really feel confident the other pair will care for them.Maye it is just good timming(their eggs just hatched last night{I think since their gone}) and these two have been good parents twice in a row allowing the fry to swarm the mother while the father stayed away.I always remove the parents now when the fry are free swimming(2-3 days after hatching).So I figure I got 2-4 days before I will pull the parents out to their next tank.
We'll see soon ,but I do really think this is going to work.As hard as breeding rams is from all my reading(harder to raise than discus they say{I'll probly never know} ,I really think this seems simple and has a great chance of working.I'll add if it works this time I think it will work everytime in the future if I get other chances.


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## coralbandit

The eggs seem sort of white today,SO possibly the two in 20 tall are both females or the male is not doing his job?I never see them lay the eggs,and honestly split the original 5 into pairs by who was hanging eith who,so I may have left 2 females together,I really don't know since they hide so much.I do have an extra male(I think) in my 55gl so maybe today I'll switch him with one in the 20 tall.


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## coralbandit

It would seem the simplest solution to the eggs not hatching would be true.They were not fertaslised.It never dawned on me I didn't pair them up properly ,but I believe this now.
But the eggs that did hatch the other day(batch #3) from the "good" pair have become free swimming and are swarming the parents this am.Both male and female in the middle of the cloud of fry.



So I offered some decapsulated rine shrimp eggs(fry are probly still too small) and green water from the apisto tank.
These two are GREAT parents and breeders,and give me great pleasure.
I'll be moving them out in 2-3 days.


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## coralbandit

It's update time and nothing but good news!
I moved the parents out of the 29,back to the 10 it all started in.They made the transition wonderfully ,but have not laid eggs again yet(comming up on 1 week in 10).
I switched the lone GBR from my 55 with the discus and angels to the 20 tall(I figured it didn't matter which one I removed being under the impression they were both females).No eggs in there yet either but they are on same schedule.
Upon removing the parents all fry seemingly vanish from sight and are impossible to find in the java moss.This is very similiar to the day after they hatch ,and vanish until 3 days later to be free swimming in "swarm" around parents.As of yesterday(after 5gl wc) they are becomming more noticeable again.There are probly 30-50 at least.I feed them decapsulated brine shrimp eggs(mixed in ro and applied with a syringe as close to them as possible),green water(from apisto tank) and frozen baby brine shrimp.I believe this to be a winning formula as the fry in the 20 long are growing well and are maybe a 1/4" now and showing the beginning of their final shape!I am now adding HBH bay bites also and think they are large enough to enjoy this.


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## SueD

So the fry were about 2 weeks when you moved the parents out? 

While it's relaxing to watch a peaceful, well thought out tank, it's the breeding that adds the excitement. I'll be following your updates and hoping all continues well for these little guys.


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## coralbandit

Parents come out 2-3 days after the fry are free swimming.


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## majerah1

Ive kinda watched this a little, but I have a question. If the parents are doing well with them for the first few days, is there a reason for pulling them? In bettas you pull the male once the fry can freeswim just so he doesnt decide to cull, breeders do this for more fry. In my experience, the male culls the ones who are unhealthy and the ones whom lives to adulthood seem healthier. They may not have the specific form and you have less to choose show/ breeding stock from. 

Or is it more to get the parents back in spawning condition? Let me say, ive no cichlid experience, save angelfish.


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## coralbandit

There is very limited info on "sucessful" raising of the fry.Many links or reports I find say the parents do nothing to help fry(besides make them feel secure IMO from behaviour),and actually will eat the fry when or bafore they lay next clutch of eggs.
We all know what info from LFS is worth and while mine is respectable,they say I may be the only one in the country(which I don't believe for a second),but actuall raising of fry seems very diffacult to locate.Most of what I found can be summed up from one thread that said"I have raised thousands of discus ,but still consider every GBR fry to be a challenge".
With my 0 sucess with my weekly breeding discus I really don't have a clue ,but feel like the luckiest guy in the country(regardless) and would like to share all I can.My breeding stock came from a warehouse in Miami,who is owned by a supplier in the Netherlands.I really don't know of any home grown stock.
Everyone I met or read from said "Tough,tough,tough".I take no chances,and am very grateful so far.I'll post pics of the two batches soon!


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## majerah1

I see! Well good luck then, it seems you are on the right track to a healthy bunch. I have read on lots of people having spawns and even fry but never really read about juvies for sale. I guess in that respect macros are easier hahah. 

Awaiting more pics.


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## coralbandit

I will say if there is one possible downfall to these fry as they mature,that hasn't presented itself yet it is water!More specifically pH.They are all being raised in 100% RO/DI with the recommended 1 teaspoon of Kent RO Right to remineralise and I have no clue if they should be or when to start "cutting" tap water to the mix.To be honest the GBR appeared to do "way worse"then my discus in my 180 with 7.6 pH, and I really don't want to screw things up!I'm not sure when /if I can "convert" them to standard water.I certainly won't try to they seem close to juvi at least. Got no clue,but am enjoying the ride!


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## coralbandit

so here is 2 pics of oldest ram fry!


The largest I think is the sole survivor from first batch in 10g.
The other batch i growing well and I see them clearly enough to vaccumm and change water but pics are hard to see as the water is still tinted alittle(I used MB do to rough fins on adults).
The adults are fine(clear fins) and in the 10G again ,but have not laid eggs again yet.
I noticed today the pot I moved with them was not theirs but the other pairs so I added their pot to tank and they seem very interested in it.The female looks ready to lay eggs!


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## BeccaBx3

Wow that is so cool! totally amazing! I am struggling with raising my 3to7 molly fry. The only thing I manages to raise were my convicts...


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## coralbandit

So eggs this am in the 10g!
This tank has a thin layer of gravel in it along with many plants.I'll hope the gravel was not the cause of only 1 fry surviving the first atch in this tank.
It would seem reasonable that food may have been the issue and this time I'm ready(and a little better experienced) with decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and green water.So we'll know for sure in about 1 week.
Both the 20 long and 29g fry seem to be thriving and growing at a fairly noticable rate!
Correction on the eggs,they are wigglers already hatched!I thought tragedy had struck as they seemed less noticable(possibly eaten{ constant fear surronds me because of my discus who laid eggs again this week and ate them},so upon shinning flashlight at them I see them wiggling already!So I need to find next tank for parents in less than a week!
I also think next time my discus lay eggs I'm going to put them in with the GBRs!Possibly the parents would tend them 'and if they hatched then feeding with the GBR fry should be no problem(how's that for bold and crazy?).We'll see.


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## coralbandit

OK update time!
All fry are doing great!
Some are even getting GBR shape and showing stripes.



Pic #3 has the sole survivor of hatch #1 in center(he/she is the largest still).
I need to move these guys from the 20 &29 they are in so I can get parents back in one of those tanks as they don't seem interested in spawning in the 10(not suprised myself).
So possibly I will move angels and discus back up to 180 and put the babies in a 55 for now until I can get them into the 75(got a few swords in there still).


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## SueD

Congrats on your success with these. They look great.


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## coralbandit

So as stated I have pulled out the angels(2 adult female kio,and 2{unsexed albino blue}) and my two (irratating to me ) discus from the 55g.I am acclimating them now back to the 180G whish is a WHOLE LOT EASIER,since I have co2 in the 180 now as the pH is so close I don't need to spend days switching water,but can easily let them drip acclimate for a couple hours and install them!
The ram fry will be getting moved to the 55G,and one pair (the good one) will be moved from the 10g(useless) to either the 20 or 29g.I took the single ram in with angels and discus this am and added "it" back to the pair yet to be productive.So possibly I will have 2 pair rockin and rolling soon.
Pics of fry in the 55g after the move!


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## coralbandit

Fry were moved last Sunday to the 55 and they seem to be very happy.Pics this weekend.


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## coralbandit

As promised pictures of the fry in the 55G,BUT FIRST new fry just free swimming today!I didn't even see the eggs.

Now the older fry!

Since I have new fry I need to move the parents again(and quick) so I emptied some swordtails into my 75g growout from a 30 long and switched all water over to RO remineralised.Hopefully I'll get the parents in there tonight or tomorrow.


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## coralbandit

So here are pics of these guys 2-3 months later!
The second photo is of the 1 that survived from the very first batch.He/she is coloring up nicely and about 1/2-3/4 of aninch long now.Many of the others(well over 100) are about a 1/2 inch long also.These are all in my 55g.


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## Nreal

Very nice! Happy fish do happy things... Lol


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## Ramsay

wow nice!! you have a lot of fish coral! keep up the good work!


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## coralbandit

The fry (juvis) in the 55g are continuing to grow well and are now eating flake(taken into water column by the aq50 s flow) and are all over frozen blood worms.Many coloring up nicely.
Unfortunately I lost the female of the good pair(I'm sure I stressed her by moving them and never giving her a break from male),but have moved another female into the 30 long with male.
I still have small fry just over 1 month old in the 29.It's kind of funny how fry from same brood can grow at such different rates.Some should go into the 55 and some are still very small?
I am really enjoying watch the juvis in the 55 grow and really am kind of sad to think of selling any to LFS,but I can't keep them all.
I have been cutting their water with tap in an attempt to acclimate them for the LFS and average keepers as few would use RO/DI remineralised for just keeping.So far so good.


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## coralbandit

So I guess it's time for an update.All fry are growing great!They are eating flake,NLS pellets and frozen bloodworms daily.They are really pigs and race right to me when I feed.
My lfs just got new rams and the larger of mine are the same size,so I guess they are close to sellable,but I think I would like to get a couple of pairs to keep breeding for myself first.To breed the best,strongest I should probly keep the biggest best colored ones.
Eitherway I'm in no hurry to get rid of them,I have grown rather attached to them,but highly doubt I could house over 100 of them long term!
Here's latest pics of them in the 55g.


They really are coloring up nicely.
I am still slowly switching them to more "normal" water and they are in about 7 pH right now.


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## SueD

Wow, great success with these. They look like so much fun to have, even though they will have to move on. But then you'll start all over again!


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## coralbandit

Actually have a younger batch still in the 29 and waiting for next set of eggs any day now!
If these guy(and girls) can keep it up I'll have to lower my swordtail stock to have room for these.They are pretty cool to watch grow as right about now they seem to be growing and developing colors almost daily(sure took long enough as these were born in beginning of Aug.!)


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## Gizmo

Epic journal! Thanks for sharing, and please keep us updated!


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## Arthur7

I've never bred Ramirezi, but when I try it once, you are helpful posts for me.


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## coralbandit

And so I could not believe my eyes this a.m.!In the 55g with maybe 100 juvi GBRS what do I see?EGGS!2 of these youths have spawned on the sponge filter and are gaurding the eggs.I told you all my LFS had the same size for sale and they said they spawned in their sale tank and were gone the next day,but I never expected this from mine so soon.They are only 4 months old.I pulled 10 of the largest or best colored and placed them in a 20Tall last Weds. hoping maybe I'd get a pair.Now I got figure out how to get these two out?
Any ways heres the pic!


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## tcald429

coralbandit said:


> And so I could not believe my eyes this a.m.!In the 55g with maybe 100 juvi GBRS what do I see?EGGS!2 of these youths have spawned on the sponge filter and are gaurding the eggs.I told you all my LFS had the same size for sale and they said they spawned in their sale tank and were gone the next day,but I never expected this from mine so soon.They are only 4 months old.I pulled 10 of the largest or best colored and placed them in a 20Tall last Weds. hoping maybe I'd get a pair.Now I got figure out how to get these two out?
> Any ways heres the pic!


I love following your threads of breeding fish, the Discus was enjoyable but frustrating. It's been nice to follow this one and see the success you are having with these. Thanks for the updates.


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## Arthur7

Well pictures! I get in the mood, to try it also


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## coralbandit

Arthur7 said:


> Well pictures! I get in the mood, to try it also


I consider myself a good fishkeeper,but no genius.If you pay attention(sounds like your well schooled) and can create the right conditions,and provide proper food,they do all the hard work.I always try to breed almost any fish I keep as my goal in the long run is to put back more than I take.If you can get the fry past 2-3 weeks it get easier as they are getting larger and more capable of other foods.It is just the beginning that requires special food.I used decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and green water for first 2-3 weeks then started adding frozen baby brine shrimp eventually going to flake,pellets and frozen bloodworms.They really dig the bloodworms,but jsut as enthusiastic for the flake and pellets(little pigs my guys are!).
So this a.m. the eggs were still there but looked "unfertalised".This evening almost all eggs are gone.I am shocked they spawned so young,but since they only live for 2 1/2 years I geuss they got start early to be efficient.


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## Arthur7

There are dwarf cichlids. The would still operate parental care, as in N. anomala. If the juveniles held together (as a cloud) and defended against other fish?


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## majerah1

Beautiful, and congrats! More eggs eh? If I knew my water would be good for them I would actually want a pr of them for my dads bar. His PH is 7.0 though so I doubt they would thrive there. 

Of course ive ph of 6 at home...... LOL


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## coralbandit

Arthur7 said:


> There are dwarf cichlids. The would still operate parental care, as in N. anomala. If the juveniles held together (as a cloud) and defended against other fish?


I'm actually under the impression the adults will not care for the fry for long.As I understand if the adults breed again while fry are in the tank they will eat the existing fry.At one point the adults were spawning almost every other week so I remove the adults within 3 days of seeing the fry free swimming.The adults don't offer any food like discus so I have seen no harm in my method.


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## coralbandit

majerah1 said:


> Beautiful, and congrats! More eggs eh? If I knew my water would be good for them I would actually want a pr of them for my dads bar. His PH is 7.0 though so I doubt they would thrive there.
> 
> Of course ive ph of 6 at home...... LOL


These guys do really prefer and do their best in soft ,low pH water.In my 180 with 7.6pH they did not thrive or color up as well.My breeder tanks are straight RO remineralised.
I actually think the eggs from the juvis may not have done well because I have been switching their water to tap over the last month.It is common for some "egg layers"(maybe only SA cichlids) to need soft low pH water for the eggs.If the water is of higher pH or hard then the eggs will not get properly fertalised.Whether this is the case or the juvis (male) is just too young I don't know?
Either way these guys & gals have brought me great pleasure and reward.Possibly all the attempts with the discus made me not so confident of the outcome,but I am pleasantly suprised.
It will be time to trade some in soon to my LFS and knowing the math they use(trading swordtails for years now) I'm thinking I may get around $4 each!
*w3


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## majerah1

That is a great price! You should be able to rack up some great supplies or other fish.


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## Arthur7

I found the fish always very nice (many years), but I did not dare. (very complicated). Congratulations, be proud!


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## coralbandit

Got to trade some of these guys in today,and got $3 each!Not to shabby,the LFS took 25 from me and put them on sale for less than usuall(win/win for everyone!).
In pulling the biggest ,best for the LFS I had to catch all so I figured I would "officially" count how many I have left.Only 130 more to go!This was a GREAT breeding session and I really need to focus on getting a couple of pairs going again.Seemss like 4 months or so to get 1/3 of the fry to 1" ,but they are growing quickly now it seems and getting rid of the largest should only help the smaller ones grow and eat more!


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## coralbandit

So for the second time my fry(now juvis if not adult{5 months old}) have laid eggs again on the sponge filter.I would say I don't expect much,BUT in looking hard I found newly hatched fry (same tank 20 tall with 10 GBR) in a clay pot! I'm torn whether or not to place them with the apisto fry in a 20 long since I don't have one open tank at the moment.Maybe a trip to petco($ per gallon sale!) is in order?


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## Arthur7

It's running like clockwork. Congrats. Yes, it's always a container too little. lol


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## majerah1

Hah, nice!


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## coralbandit

Had to put them in with the apisto fry.They wouldn't last with adults and a "real" tank is necessary.Hoping it all works out,I think I can already recognise the apisto fry,as they look different.They have more coloring(like mottled?),with dark stripes or patches,so we'll see.I planned on raising the apistos the same as I do the GBR so water and everything was as it should be.The GBR are still in pot(I moved the whole thing in a specimen container with water so as to not disturb them),but the apistos are all over the tank,they are way more active then the GBR fry were at the same age!


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## Arthur7

You have found the right conditions, for very complicated fish. Write down anything on!
You will not believe how quickly one forgets.
I often look through my old records, but I have not written enough.


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## coralbandit

Arthur7 said:


> You have found the right conditions, for very complicated fish. Write down anything on!
> You will not believe how quickly one forgets.
> I often look through my old records, but I have not written enough.


I like to write things here,where everyone can see and I can find easily,so here goes.
I use a BRS(Bulk Reef Supply) RO/DI system that was originally 6 stage with dual DI .I have added an extra chamber in the beginning for better prefilter(promotes the life of all other filters).I have built in TDS meter that measures water into DI and out of DI.Never above 0 TDS leaving filter.The DI changes color so it is easy to keep up on.I add 1 teaspoon of equilibrium(seachem product) to every 5-10 gallons(not really random but sometimes a hair more than other times).I pour pure (unmineralised) RO/DI for evaporation.Tanks always run on sponge filters (air driven),and range from80-82 degrees.I'll never forget this ,as I am enjoying these guys so much!Today while scoping the eggs on sponge(in debate of whether to pull them or not)I see a swarm of babies swimming around another pair in tank!I syphoned them out(what I could get before the parents "hid them away")with my smallest vaccum hose and added them to the 20 long with the apistos.Seems like there are at least 3 pair in the tank(not bad for 10 total fish).I will need to seperate them all soon I guess,as the 20 tall is not enough for even 2 full grown breeding pairs.I placed them in there just so I could keep the 10 best colored or largest ones with hopes of breeding,but never thought I'd get 3+ pairs.I actually still have great diffaculty sexxing the larger(store bought) ones!It is easy to tell when they breed!


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## Arthur7

Thank you, and congratulations again. I have saved your post.


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## Arthur7

BTW How much does an RO unit?


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## coralbandit

I'm sure they can had for around $125(US).This is where I got mine;
Bulk Reverse Osmosis Filters & Systems - Bulk Reef Supply
Besides the Thin Film Composite(TFC) filter all the replacements are pretty cheap.The TFC should last upto 3 years.I have a flush/rinse feature(besides adding the extra canister) which makes everything last longer.
I didn't get mine for breeding(just an extra benefit),I actually got mine for my reef tanks,which is why I wanted the TDS meter and all the "bells and whistles".
This is the unit I use;
BRS 6 Stage DELUXE RO/DI System - 75GPD - Bulk Reef Supply
with 1 extra canister(like $25) in front to remove more sediment.


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## Arthur7

Thank you. Since I am looking times where I get something here. The old exchange columns (Permutit and Wofatit). were too dangerous for me at home. (Regeneration with acid or lye)
This must probably be maintained from time to time, only the membrane?


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## coralbandit

My unit has volume meters so I know how much water is processed.I replace the first filter(5 micron) every month or so(2000-2500 gallons).The other filters last 2-4 times longer and I have not yet replaced the TFC(almost 2 years).
The DI resin is the most quickly depleted and gets changed evry month at least.Only 1 canister needs replacing at a time.I pull the first one and move the second(still good) to the first station and place new in the second station(redundant system).This is how they say to do it.Really good instructional videos on the BRS site(for all sorts of stuff).


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## coralbandit

So got the call from LFS for more!They sold all I brought them last time and are looking for another 25!This should bring me down to around 100 left in the 55g and 3 more new batches still in a 20 long with the apistos!The apistos also are laying eggs again today so buy Monday or Tues I should have 3 batches of them also!I just pulled some swords out of my 33 long(48X12) ,so I guess I'll be moving some of the smaller fry in there soon.They are tiny and hard to see,but I have think the 20 long is getting a little crowded.I think I'll bring home some Rotalia Magenta and a saltwater fish,but I haven't decided which one yet(toss up between fox face and purple queen anthias(think it is really a bartletts).
This is working very well for me!
PS; I got both fish !


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## coralbandit

So the first fry really started rolling in August and now 6 months later my fry are getting it in gear!I again pulled 30-50 freeswimming fry from a 20 tall with 4 of my fry(now 6 months old).In my 30 there are 6 of my fry and at least 1 clutch of eggs I can see on driftwood.
I am thrilled that this adventure can continue with my fry into the future as sometimes you never know if you are just getting lucky or maybe even doing something right.


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## TroyVSC

How early on can you tell female/male. What size are they when you can tell. Glad the whole project has worked well and that you have been raise so many.


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## coralbandit

It is hit or miss telling sex IMO.It seems while still young and fairly small the females have a very red belly.I kept 10 out of all these fry for breeding.I picked some that were the largest and some that had the red belly(they were smaller).I am pretty sure I have at least 3 pairs out of the 10. 60% isn't bad and maybe I did even better only time will tell,but for females it is the red belly,possibly only visable when they are ready to breed and not stressed.If at the LFS and looking,take your time,stand as far back from tank as possible(so they don't really notice you) and take your time.If others(people or fish) are stressing them then wait.I've read alot about these fish and sexing them,and still could never call a specific one 100%.Some are easy to tell others hide who they are which is one of the things that happens,especially if hormones are in the water(males do this) or if they are stressed in any way.
I haven't searched this one yet but it really may be more helpful to add pdf to the end of all searches;"sexing german blue rams pdf"?The pdf at the end of any search seems to lead to more accurate /scientific info.Sorry I got nothing better but?


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## TroyVSC

Yeah they are tough to tell at the LFS. Although i was told by one LFS that they mostly get males. Originally I got two both males. Went to Petsmart and they clearly had females as there was no doubt about the red bellies and I picked one up. The male harassed her but after a week they paired and laid eggs. They didn't last and then one morning I woke up and she was dead. not sure why but sense then have had a hard time finding a definitive female. Really cool to see your pics and your success in breeding them.


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## coralbandit

I just went and looked at what I know are a couple pairs.In general(always so far) the male is larger.Also the female besides the red belly will have "more" blue spots in the black.It seems that some of the males have a few blue spots,but the ones I know are females have more.
I believe that many of the LFS have only males.I lost my one good original female and ended up purchasing 4 more.Those 4 and my male are all now in my 180,as they never spawned once in two months of being alone in a 30.They all look like males now to me,no blue in the black spots at all.
I'll share(I wish all sucess as this is great for me to enjoy),that I really think getting the eggs to hatch is all about the water.I in my own mind believe 100% I would have zero sucess without my RO/DI water.My tap is 7.6(not all bad),and 0KH and GH(good for these guys).Even with such low kh&gh my TDS(totall disolved solids) in the tap are still too much for the eggs.If the water even has a certain amount of TDS regardless of being "soft"(0kh/gh) it will hinder the eggs ability to be properly fertalised.
after they hatch it is the feeding for first 3 weeks and then all should be good.
If any of your suppliers get a new batch and colors aren't clear I would definately just go biggest and like second smallest.


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## Arthur7

I did not understand how much ppm TDS coming out of the faucet. if it can not be a hardness salts, which can otherwise be substances?


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## coralbandit

Arthur7 said:


> I did not understand how much ppm TDS coming out of the faucet. if it can not be a hardness salts, which can otherwise be substances?


I honestly have no clue what could be in my water,but the standardAPI liquid test never register anything for me(kh/gh),yet after the whole ro filter(before the deioniser) My HM meter definately registers TDS.When running and in motion (the water) it is only single digits or maybe 10ppm,but if it has set due to resevoir being full it can start out at almost 100ppm sometimes.My RO/DI filter is the first thing off my line in house ,but the supply line from street is copper by "code" and I saw it installed?


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## Arthur7

A copper line does not hurt to always flow. It a solid oxide skin that forms solutions prevented.
On my faucet I have 180 ppm. The TDS Meter is a conductivity meter. It registered all substances that can form ions. In tap water (drink water), no nitrates or ammonium, but only the hardness salts. Magnesium and calcium. I measure 8 ° GH and KH about 2 °.
If at the time of use to increase the ppm, it must be biologically formed materials. From protein degradation. From a boundary I have to then change the water.
Even with medical addition of sodium chloride, the ppm rise very strong. 400-500 ppm. But that is explainable.


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## coralbandit

I can not help but to update this thread!Today a batch of eggs in the 30g with the 3 pairs were free swimming.I use my smallest vacumm tube to suck them out.I removed 50 easy,the first time!When I went back to look a second time about an hour later I saw a few more so sucked them out again.What I thought was a few was like 50 more!I'd say these guys are like clockwork,but it is turning out like being in a clock shop!This makes 2 sets of fry this week(probly 150-200).and it appears the apistos are going to lay eggs again today also!
I never really thought I would have this much luck with a fish I consider diffacult to keep,but dare say I think I'm on to something good!


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## Arthur7

I congratulate you again and wish continued success.


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## coralbandit

OK update!I'm not so sure mixing the apistos and GBR was really a success.I pulled all the fish I could see from the 20 and put them in a 33 long(12x48).It really seemed like most of what I pulled were apistos.Maybe the 20 was too crowded,or maybe the apistos gobbled up the GBR fry.It does seem the apistos are much more sneaky,and grow faster.Even just hanging out they seem to be stalking?There should have been way more GBR than apistos,but I really didn't notice too many(if any?).
Possibly the overstocking and lack of ability to change water in large quanities along with vacumming(really can't vacumm at all for weeks!) and large amounts of food just brought water quality down?So the 20 was empty for a couple days,but I have managed to catch 3 sets of fry just today!2 came from my 30 with 6 adults(my own),and one from the20 with 4 adults.
I also question my moving the fry instead of the parents,but it is OUT OF CONTROL,how many tanks I would need to keep up with these guys!
So 3 fresh batches of fry in the 20 and a batch of apistos still with parents probly hatching tonight or tomorrow.I did clear out another 20 for the new apisto fry as I don't think as newborn fry I will be mixing them with the GBR again.


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## coralbandit

Just adding a few observations and a "new" trick!

The moving of the fry as oppossed to the adults is NOT an issue as I clearly see

hundreds of fry free swimming in the 20g today and yesterday(they moved over just 

fine).I still think the apsitos had some effect on the previous batch as I don't think I 

pulled any GBR fry from this tank the other day.I didn't catch them all with a net,I 

used my smallest vacumm hose to suck them into a bucket and installed them with 

hose again.

The new trick is for freshly hatched fry still in the pot.If left with adults long enough 

they spead out all over the place and are impossible to find all again.So I like(try)

to remove the pot with fry still in it.It appeared although hatched that not many never left

the pot last time(apistos may have eaten some),but for the most part I think they 

lacked proper water circulation the parents would have provided(mostly female as 

the males pay very attention at all).So I have installed an air line through the hole in 

the bottom of the pot(pot is on its side) and have small stream of bubles that pulls

water "through" the pot in a very gentle fashion.This does seem to be working as

one of the batches of fry from the other day are definately moving and starting to

leave the pot.

Hundreds of free swimming fry!!!!

I'm also using golden pearls (smallest) mixed with the astaxanthin powder mixed

with the golden pearls and to generate new green water in a container under 24/7 light.


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## coralbandit

So two more batches of eggs in the tank I pulled the 2 males out of.I need to see if there could be 3 or 4,but oddly enough it seems this time the males are tending the eggs or at least guarding them.
Traded in another 25 today along with 210 swordtails so store credit just keeps growing like the fry.Both the fry of GBR from before are active ,swimming and feeding and the apistos are all out of the pot and swimming in their own 20g.I may actually be comming up with a good workable system for both which pleases me greatly.
LFS had a nice pair of double red apistos but I had nowhere to keep them seperate,and passed them up.
Also met a young man and his father who purchased some of my GBR from LFS and he says they are breeding for him,but was unsure of what to do next,and really couldn't tell if he had fry,but said he saw them wiggling!I offered all advice I could think of(which is probly too much to really remember from one conversation),and told him to come here(to AF) and check this thread out for help.How cool if someone else could get these guys going as they really seem to breeding like crazy now.3 batches of eggs in the 55g growout with all the remaining fry/juvis,but not much hope of getting any of them I think?


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## dalfed

Just a thought you may of done the right thing by moving the fry not the adults, ever since I moved the adults I have not had them even attempt to breed for me again. All water parameters are the same just gave them a bigger home.


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## coralbandit

Of the original pair that spawned all my fry(now breeding),the female eventually died.I don't know if it could be from over breeding or all the moves ,from tank to tank to tank.I keep all my apisto and GBR breeding tanks the same,and even moved the same pots,but everbody seems more "on time" since I started to vacumm out the fry.Sometimes(the apistos always) they even spawn in the exact same place.
I pulled the pot with the apisto fry and the female waited for that pot to come back,even with an identical one in its same place?Fish are funny!sometimes I think I know and other times feel clueless!Thank God for all the input from others,even if it is only a remark or comment,sometimes it grounds me,and makes me greatful!


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## coralbandit

Still learning and experimenting for best results.Both apistos and GBR had eggs last week that hatched on Thurs.I left them in tank with parents a little longer then I have lately and possibly misse them!The apistos were off the pot and swimming so I was able to syphon a good number of them,but the GBR pulled a "fast one" on me.First they moved the fry from a log to inside a pot.I have not seen them be completely moved like this before so kind of suprised?Today most are gone.Either eaten or hiding very well(doesn't take much effort).I did manage to syphonn a few and actually am trying the method I saw in Leclairs photo of his fry.a floating tupperware container with only 2" of water and air in the fry tank.This may help to feed or at least keep track of survival rate.


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## coralbandit

Sometimes being lucky is better I think!
A total clean up of the 20(home of fry) ,and only around 30 juvis.The survival rate is so much lower.They may have been eaten by the larger fry,or just not survived?
So I'm glad to have seen Leclairs post and pic in http://www.aquariumforum.com/f51/german-blue-questions-46226.html.I'm now placing new fry when pulled from parents to floating very shallow containers(dalfed?I heard you earlier) and this may be a little more effective.I can easily "target feed' and am now finally able to make large wc(less than 1/4 gallon) as often as I want,with a turkey baster!
The fry are still small,but I can see where they are,and if they are active.
If i hadn't pulled all the moss for the total cleanup I wouldn't have known how many there were in the 20g and kind of think the size is too much for new fry to find their way,especially with even only slightly older fry in the same space.
I'm hoping in a couple weeks the fry will be large enough(although still pretty small),to be able to be added to the existing juvis,or I have to move them with 6 month olds.
I'm doing the same with the apistos fry,but there were none in their 20 grow out!NONE?


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## Arthur7

I congratulate.
What then get the fry for a feed?


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## Leclair10

I'm glad my post helped you out!!! It's way easier to keep an eye on the fry in a dish. This way you can see if there is a problem easily and the fry seem to eat better IMO/IME. Just remember to change the water and keep the dish clean. I have a batch of GBR that just went free swimming a couple of days ago. 

I tried a different approach this time and left them in the 5 gallon with just over half the tank filled. I left the RO/Meth Blue hatching water in and didn't change water til they all were free swimming. This go round I use water from their parents tank and only use a drop or two of liquid fry food. To me it seems there is a benefit from using tank water rather then water change water. I believe there are micro foods in the parents water that the fry eat as well. So far so good and have minimal losses.

By the way I think this batch is around the 300 count!!!


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## Leclair10

I'm not trying to hijack your journal...............but here's a couple of pics of the fry I have now using the different approach I tried in the post above. Sorry the pics kinda suck but my camera isn't the greatest for macro shots. Gives an idea of them though. The orange in their belly's are BBS.


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## coralbandit

They look great!Feel free to jump in on this as it is info for anyone and the more we can get out the better others may do.
I'm still in the learning curve of the floating bins and haven't had great success,but I did find out that even at the size of your fry they will eat smaller new borns.So many tanks or working out this bin thing is important for me.The 30g with 2 males and 4 females hatches eggs almost every 7 days!I haven't been able to get them all past 1 week in the bins,but there are so many variables.Last 2 batches are still good,but last batch of apistos either got pulled to early or just didn't make it?


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## chenowethpm

I think My GBRs aren't happy enough to breed. Was thinking about switching to 50% ro water mix instead of just tap for water changes. They seek pretty happy, active, colorful, and hungry. They've been in their 29 for 4 weeks.


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## Leclair10

chenowethpm said:


> I think My GBRs aren't happy enough to breed. Was thinking about switching to 50% ro water mix instead of just tap for water changes. They seek pretty happy, active, colorful, and hungry. They've been in their 29 for 4 weeks.


I wouldn't play with the water to be honest. Mine lay eggs in a PH of 7.8 and moderately hard water. Most Rams will eat their eggs anyways so it's probably best to just pull the eggs and put in RO water with Meth Blue. All I do is have sand and a couple of flat rocks in the tank. I just leave them be and always do water changes,keep the water clean and the Rams well fed.


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## Leclair10

As for raising fry in the pyrex containers........you need to be around constantly to change out the water. I find the water quality life is very limited in the dishes. I found the liquid fry food contaminates the water in the dishes fast!!! The egg yolk paste degrades the water as well but not as fast as the liquid IME/IMO. Plus you always have to suck the little guys out,clean the dish and on and on it goes til they are big enough for BBS.

I had more fry deaths in the 5 gallon then I ever did with the dishes. When the fry I have are old enough I'm going to paint the 5 gallon either white or a pale blue on the bottom and 3 sides. Then try again and perfect raising them this way.


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## coralbandit

You don't need to change your water for them to breed.They will if they want.If the eggs don't get eaten and don't hatch then maybe you need to adjust your water.But if they actually even hatch then you are all good and just need to figure out how /what to feed them.
Some reading says in hard water the eggs won't be fertalised,but the young man who got some of mine said he saw wigglers in his tank with regular tap,so I'm not convinced the ro is necessary.I do keep my rams and apistos(that are breeding) in soft water,but my juvis(same as my breeders) in the 55g lay eggs in tap with 7.6pH.There are still like 30 GBR in this tank so even egg survival is not expected,but they do breed.


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## chenowethpm

My pH is always 7.4 and that's the same as the lfs where I got them as a breeding pair. I don't think they've laid eggs yet, not that I have seen. But they are quite beautiful.


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## Leclair10

PH really doesn't matter! Its the conductivity of your water. Hardness being number 1. In soft water the eggs are easily fertilized and your hatch rates will be much higher. With high hardness the male may not be able to fertilize as well cause the eggs won't stay soft for long.


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## coralbandit

Leclair10 said:


> PH really doesn't matter! Its the conductivity of your water. Hardness being number 1. In soft water the eggs are easily fertilized and your hatch rates will be much higher. With high hardness the male may not be able to fertilize as well cause the eggs won't stay soft for long.


Without a conductivity meter the best thing to keep track of is your gH and kH.Even with ro(not deionosed) the TDS(total dissolved solids) can be pretty high and that will interfere with fertilisation.My tap is pretty low gH/kH so although I'm not breeding in that water the juvis spawn and are incredibly colorful in straight tap.
Conductivity is a measurement of many things,but is used by many to know their TDS.My ro/di has built in TDS meter so I know my purified water is 0 TDS all the time.The softer the water the easier for eggs to be fertalised.
You would have to look hard to see eggs and even harder to see the fry!
Best bet is to see if one hangs in one area protecting it or fanning it.


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## chenowethpm

Would they lay eggs on the sand? They do hang out in a couple spots and love to clean off one of the slate rocks. There's a couple of spots where there dug craters in the sand. I could watch these two all day.


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## coralbandit

I've actually seen some of mine(in the 20 tall) dig little pits in the substrate,but they didn't lay eggs in them.
I have seen eggs almost everywhere else;on heater,back glass,wood,sponge filter(the sponge itself and the plastic parts that hold sponge{both top and bottom})and rocks.I get alot in a terra cotta pot on its side.
My rams in the 30 long seem to really favor wood?
although the female will get a red belly,unlike livebearers that get huge,the female may not look very large(full of eggs),but more just "well fed".


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## Leclair10

I believe when they dig the little "pits" that's where they want to put the fry once they start hatching. That way they can keep watch over them bouncing around in the bottom of the pit and they can't get out. Not as much stress on the parents.


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## coralbandit

So I traded 26 of the largest remaining today.That leaves with around 24 not as big in the 55.So Having a batch floating that I wanted to release into the 20 long I scooped the fry/juvis that were in there.They are big enough to drag frozen blood worms around like a dog with a big stick!I counted 30 so no where near my previous numbers ,but I am greatful for any.
Big thanks to Leclair,as I asked some questions last night and got answers i think will help.Between Leclair and myself it seemed agreed that even sponge filters on slow flow may be too strong for the new fry,so I removed one and replaced it with a coarse air stone.Then I lowered the water so the remaing sponge does not pull water through it(but left in tank hooked up,basically for a bio source).Then I let loose however many were floating(I hope over 100) and refilled the floating container with 2 new sets of fry from the 30 long.Perfect timming on all of this and hopefully I will come up with a more efficient system for these guys.I'm thinking a week or 2 floating and getting special care and then turning them loose into the 20 long.
And everyone can laugh,but I'm trying to hatch brine shrimp again ,this time with salt water from my reef tanks.May seem hard to believe with such good luck breeding fish,but up until now I have 0 success hatching brine shrimp!so here's hoping for this to work also as the addition of live food,when they are large enough to it will certainly make a huge difference.


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## Leclair10

For hatching BBS.....I use 2 liter pop bottles. Specific gravity should be around 0.018. I use straight RO water. I just got a big of pre mixed salt and eggs. One tablespoon and your good to go. The hatch rate was pretty decent as well. Took a little longer then 24 hours to hatch though. I think within the next couple of days my fry should be ready for some flake and maybe some chopped bloodworms.


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## coralbandit

I am using the 2 litre bottle set up.all the times before I used premixed eggs and salt and didn't do well.So this time I bought just eggs(with a good expiration date) and used water from my reef(sg 1.023).I keep the bottle in one of my sumps so it stay warm.I'm hoping this works out better.If it doesn't I'll lower the sg.All my salt tanks are nothing but ro/di 100% with reef crystals as my salt.


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## coralbandit

Well I wasn't sure how I would even know if they hatched,but just went and checked and could actually see them swimming when I turned off the air!So this is wonderful and another step in the right direction.I'm sure the addition of live BBS will help.I sorted out about 1/2 and rinsed and fed to fry,who knows if they ate them,and took the rest and placed in 2.5 g tank with airstone and 1 drop of selcon.


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## Leclair10

Here is a quick pic of my GBR fry this morning. I have started feeding flake and they eat it from the bottom of the tank in their daily travels. They also pick BBS off the sponge. They use the sponge as a rest stop also. I will try turning their light off a night this weekend. They continue to grow like weeds.


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## coralbandit

^^Those look great!^^
You keep lights on 24/7 for how long?
Got two more batches of fry from the GBR and 1 from the apistos this week!
I got to get this working better!I should be silly deep in GBR by now yet it seems a real battle to get them past 2 weeks?


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## Leclair10

Thanks!! I have left the light on since I put them in there,pretty much since they became free swimming. Its just a small LED.

Shed a little more light on your second week,where you are having trouble? The fry should be free swimming by then right? What's happening with them?


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## coralbandit

They are free swimming around before 2 weeks so I can't tell what happens to them?I do remember on other breeding post to leave lights on but never translated it.It is hard to say what's going wrong but we can be 95% sure it's operator error!I just got to work this out while I have such a great oppurtunity.I get fry almost every 7 days X 2 in the 30g with 2 males and 4 females!I don't want to leave them in with parents too long as they move them around(into hiding),and fear the odd 2 females or over all behavior of tank?


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## coralbandit

I think I've been overfeeding the fry and thus "polluting" the tanks.Upon cleaning today I see small worms(planaria?).It would be nice if I generated a good food source,but I'm not thinking planaria count.And the water quality is just a geuss upon fining these little worms?
So less foo and hopefully cleaner water will improve my results.
Less than 20 fry visable in the 20g,but they are actually good size for how long they have been in there.I think they were last weeks release so actually kind of suprised by size.


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## Leclair10

I feed twice a day......In the morning and the evening. I change half their water in the evening. 5 gal tank I take 2.5 to 3.5 gallons out. Because I have discus and love changing water I always have heated and aerated water for a change. The temp is a little higher then the GBR tank but has worked out for me. I have the fry at 80 and my WC water is 82. 

To me clean water tap water(mine is 7.8 and moderately hard) is best for the fry to develop. That's why my tanks are BB.......super easy to keep clean!! I'd rather look at the fish then fake/real plants or gravel.


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## coralbandit

Going to try feeding less as I just pulled a batch today and yesterday or day before.Same with fresh batch of apistos.Less food and cleaner water hopefully may help.
It seemed fairly simple in the beginning?


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## coralbandit

So although it has only been a couple of days I think I'm noticing a difference!I have offered baby brine shrimp(live) to fry and they are active as all get out in their floating containers!I'm using much less of the golden pearls mixed with water(drops per day) and am trying something a little different.Selcon,which is what you should "gut load" baby brine shrimp over 24 hours old with to keep them a good nutritous source.1 drop of selcon for the fry and minimal feedings with good clean water.Only time will tell,but this is looking promising.2 floating bins with aprox 300-400 fry and 2 more sets of eggs to be pulled from the 30(non stop breeding machine!) in a day or two.I would really love to get this down to system anyone(especially me) could repeat successfully.
I've read the selcon is for marine use only(I have it for my reef tanks),but thought due to its composition it would be worth a try?I make sure to change 50% in floating bins daily so no unwanted nutrients build up.We'll see!


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## Leclair10

My fry are doing great. I have started feeding flake and even some FDBW that I stuck to the glass the other day. When I get home in the evening all the flake or FDBW are gone. Still doing 50%+ daily water changes. Turning the light off this week hasn't had any effect other then the baby's get some rest. Most of them are on the bottom "sleeping" when I turn lights on. Will post new pics later. Hopefully I can start a journal like this with my Blue Faced Heckels in a couple month's or so!! Damn Discus sometimes I hate them!!


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## coralbandit

Well I'll update.I'm not using the selcon at the moment as it seemed there was some die off in containers.I'm not sure the selcon had anything to do with it as I'm sort of still struggling with the fry.
It seemed clear I had to try something different so I moved the 6 in a 20 tall to the 20 long where the fry were.They never have been productive that I have noticed but there were eggs this am that they quickly ate!The fry I moved into a breeders net from the containers to allow better waterquailty,and flow.They seem to really enjoy this much more.Some have escaped,but that is fine as nothing else is in the 20 tal and there is only 4-6 inches of waterl.I am using this net Amazon.com: Lee's Net Breeder: Pet Supplies although it is day one(things always seem to change)I'm really liking it and think I will get a couple more.Possibly the fry still need to be in container for first week,but this allows target feeding and great flow with larger volume of water.
I'll admit it seemed pretty bleek in the last couple days,but I just have to keep trying to get it right.I am very lucky that my 6 in the 30 really do lay eggs every weekx2,so hopefully I will get this right (I'll settle for better) and have some decent numbers soon.I have to admit that I find the challenge more interesting than my reef tanks!


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## Leclair10

Hmmm IMO and IME I believe the fry are VERY sensitive to meds. There will always be die off no matter what we try and do,its just natures way. I truly believe once the fry are free swimming the die off rate should drop dramatically. Though weaker fry will die. If you are getting lots of die off something is wrong somewhere,9 times out of 10 its water quality or they are not eating enough or not at all.

I believe as well that just before they become free swimming that using some water from the parents tank and clean aged water helps out quite abit. I'm thinking this helps as there are micro foods in the parents water for the fry to eat and the water is cycled.

Here is some of my school as of 10 minutes ago......


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## coralbandit

Wow they look great especially eating the freeze dried worms!
No meds ,not even MB.In the containers they were in parents water.
I am hopeful at this point today.


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## 5280electricbluerams

Hi!

Thanks for putting this thread out, Coral! God I wish I would have seen this 3-4 years ago. I was looking for all the info you all have been talking about. 

I'm Brad from Denver. I have been breeding Electric Blue Rams for 4 years as a small supplement to my income (I dream bigger!). I just got into fish about five years ago and got two EBRs. Well when I got them home and they laid eggs I was hooked. Three breeding pairs later and about 200 eggs a week, here I am. 

Coral suggested I post in here and I will join the forum as well. I am happy to answer questions as I can. Check out my website too at 5280electricbluerams.com. I am taking reservations on the current spawn. There are couple videos and slide shows and I plan to add a lot more. My wife just suggested last summer that I get online. I wish I would have found this thread sooner. 

This weekend I will post pics of my setup and process - some of this is at 5280electricbluerams.com!

-Viva la Breeding!

Brad
5280electricbluerams.com


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## 5280electricbluerams

So I have a question. I know EBRs are different the GBRs in that EBRs have been so messed with they seem to be finicky, but would you all share how many fish you are getting per spawn? I know it is hard to get accurate numbers - although if any of you choose to use my method which I'm happy to share it will be much easier to count them. It is so hard to find reliable info on wigglers to juvie ratio!

-viva la breeding!

Brad


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## 5280electricbluerams

Coral,

I noticed you said you started using lees net breeders. If they are the ones with the plastic frame I would watch carefully. I've had fry stuck everywhere and with evaporation sometimes I'd find the stuck in the net or between the net and the frame just above water level. Also somehow a few even managed to get in the loop if netting that is sewed on both sides. I couldn't figure it out. I had to cut them out. 

Just an FYI. 

Brad


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## coralbandit

I definately linked the incorrect net!I'm using the penn plax "deluxe net breeder".It is the kind with suction cup and rises and sinks with water level,but I only have 4 inches of water going on now anyways.
The net is Glued or heat sealed to frame(not a loose bag over the frame).Some did escape the net and are lose in the 20g,but I actually just got 4 more delivered today from kensfish with earthworm flake food.
AOL Search
I seem (every day is different) to be doing really well since putting fry in the net.They are active and have plenty of water to help keep quality up.
I appreciate you joining in on this,as it is "a little prideful boast",but really to help all others .These fry are not the easiest to raise even if you get a pair and they hatch!


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## coralbandit

Have turned all fry lose into 20T .Water has been switched to tap and 1 drop MB per gallon added.Only about 5 inches of water and airstones at this point but they seem to be doing well.
I looked back and realised in the beginning I moved parents instead of fry.So last weekend I seperated 3 pair into their own tanks and figure I'll give them a go this way.1 pair has already laid a massive amount of eggs,and I have faith in the other two pairs.
I'll give first pair a little extra time with fry before I move the adults.
I traded the last of my first batch last weekend so only have 30-60 juvis in the 55 now,but they are growing pretty quickly.
Hoping I get a good system here,between ;nets,seperate tanks,moving adults first,even the live BBS.
I appreciate everyones help.


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## Leclair10

5280electricbluerams said:


> So I have a question. I know EBRs are different the GBRs in that EBRs have been so messed with they seem to be finicky, but would you all share how many fish you are getting per spawn? I know it is hard to get accurate numbers - although if any of you choose to use my method which I'm happy to share it will be much easier to count them. It is so hard to find reliable info on wigglers to juvie ratio!
> 
> -viva la breeding!
> 
> Brad


I'm fairly certain my GBR's are laying between 250 to 300 eggs per spawn. My last hatch was right around the 200 mark. As of today I have over 100 fry that are living and thriving. I imagine EBR's will be lower as they are cross bred like crazy,but you never know with nature.


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## coralbandit

Well I hoping going back will progress my effort.
Here are most recent fry with their parents still;

I will eventually move the parents.Then the fry after a couple of weeks.Like I said I realised that in the beginning I moved the adults and not the fry.Somewhere in the middle(concerned about stressing the adults) I started to move the fry and leave the adults.We'll have to see if this ups my numbers any or not.Looks like a couple hundred fry eitherway?
Note how much larger the male is then female,they are the same age without a doubt!


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## sephnroth

When I was reading about breeding gbr just yesterday the article I read said that GBR are maternal fish and both parents are active in raising their own fry and will swim with them protecting them - is that not true? It also said that it takes paired GBR's a "few goes" to become "good parents" and for the first few batches they may eat the fry even but as long as conditions are good that will stop completely?


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## coralbandit

Those are great points!These parents are doing great,yet I expect if I wait too long they will eat the fry regardless.
My discus never got much past eating the fry or eggs in like 16 + attempts(I have a discus journal on this site also,possibly labled 120 up and running).Many links say if the fish regardless of type lays eggs again they will eat the fry to protect the new.My rams and the discus got into weekly egg laying which afforded the fry little chance of parental help?
The protective behavior of the parents is lost on me when they are in a tank without any other fish?I know this is not nature ,but how I have accomodated them,but?
I wish everyone could have the oppurtunities I have had with fish breeding and the success and failures!My discus sent more than myself spinning in frustration.
All in all I do really just feel lucky to even be able to try to get this right.My goal has always been to put back more than I take,which I'm all good on with the GBR,BUT I have lost thousands of fry of the last 6-8 months and that drives me to try harder.


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## sephnroth

Keep going Tom! The reason I was reading about it yesterday is I would like to try myself in the future  You're doing great!


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## SueD

That is an amazing number of fry! Great job you're doing.


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## coralbandit

OK I pulled the parents from the spec a little over 10 days ago.The number of fry seemed to be decreasing.I'm still puzzled by how I start with so many fry and end up with so few?The parents were moved to a 20g where they spawned again and then the male died!Those eggs hatched and the fry swarmed their mom for about 4 days,but are now scattered in the tank(less than 1/2 full of water).
Like I said I'm trying a different approach of moving the parents and not the fry so I gathered up all my breeding stock an put them together in a 30g.This is so I could get good pairs again(not so sure these guys mate for life?).I managed to pull 2 pair from the group,1 went into another 5.5g and one into a 20g(1/2 full).Both have laid eggs in the last 2 days.There are also eggs in the 30 with the group(maybe 10+) so I decided to consolidate my breeding swords(into 1 40B) and am setting up a 40B for the group of GBR to go into.They do seem pretty crowded in the 30 and hopefully I can pull all but the 1 pair gaurding eggs.
I'm not seeing higher numbers yet ,but with 5 tanks that have their own fry I may end up with a greater overall take.
I traded 12 of my complete second batch(born Dec/Jan) andd they were suprisingly as large as the 2 from my first batch the LFS still had!
Still hoping to get a good system going here,but i guess this all takes time.There are maybe 20-50 fry in the 5.5 that were in the last pic,hopefully I will be able to move them to a 20g soon.


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## chenowethpm

Are you keeping the guys in straight RODI or is it a mix of RODI and tap? I really want to do better for my GBRs, and am trying to decide my next course of action.


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## coralbandit

They are in pure RO/DI remineralised to be soft.For the kent ro right that is 1 teaspoon per 5 gal(this product is liquid).I also use seachem equilibrium at 1teaspoon per 20g(this product is powder).I read the seachem to be a better product but have just switched back to see if I even notice a difference.I don't use both it is one or the other.
I wish overnight shipping wasn't CRAZY(I checked this am) or I would just send you a couple pair.It really is ridiculous and with our USPS 2 day history(took a week for those who are saying ????) me shipping anything besides plants to anyone seems diffacult or expensive. I know Leclair and some others have had success in "normal water" but when mine were in my 180 with tap they never faired as well as my discus even.


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## coralbandit

It has been over 2 months since last updated so here we are!
I have been very busy working out of town,and have had less time and energy to do my usaull overkill maintenance and such.That being said and thinking to myself "I should be knee deep in GBR,but am not!",they are still breeding regulary(1 pair right now) and I actually may be doing better leaving them alone!I have about 30 in the 55g (1/2 are ready to go to LFS),about 20+ (at least) in a 30Long,another 30+ in 29g and the usuall couple hundred fry (1 week old) with their parents still in my specV!.
I wish I could "master" this,but I will more then glady accept small steps of success as opposed to none.I have actually spent "some time" wondering if I just got lucky or was possibly/had possibly,stumbled onto doing something right?
All my breeding stock now is my own fry,so eventually I will need to introduce a new male or female.Possibly next time I trade at my LFS they will have some not from me I can swap for?
Just wanted to check in and say I see the light,but am trying to get to the end of the tunnel still.


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## coralbandit

Traded in 15 of these guys today (with the apistos).I still have around 30+ in a30g growing.They are about 1/2 inch now and just starting to get color.
I have a couple pair(my own fry)that are breeding regulary but it is still around 2 weeks after free swimming something happens and I end up with very few if any.
Hopefully I will stay lucky and be given however much time it takes me to figure these guys out.I am trying to create as much tank space as I can for these guys and the apistos.Hopefully I can get this worked out?It sure is fun trying either way!


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## Arthur7

I wish you continued success for the breed, even in the third or fourth generation.
I myself have been a little out looking for these fish. But the original Ramirezi from earlier is no longer there. Various colors, blue, pale red, yellow, but all is not as nice as the original. Unfortunately. I watch more.


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## coralbandit

coralbandit said:


> Hopefully I will stay lucky and be given however much time it takes me to figure these guys out.I am trying to create as much tank space as I can for these guys and the apistos.Hopefully I can get this worked out?It sure is fun trying either way!


So having cleared a little space I now have 6 pair in seperate tanks with eggs/fry in 3 of them!
I did seperate 1 pair of the apistos ,but they just don't seem to be intersted in working with me ATM?I'm not clear on their schedule ,but I got nothing but time for them!*r2


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## coralbandit

As much as Arthur says write down everything and I certainly tried on this thread,I have to say I am still trying new things due to lack of consistent sucess.
Last failed attemp was to have the smallest fry that I know will survive to sale{aprox 3/16 of an inch} from my batch of "juvis" in with fry.This was an effort to give added sense of security to fry since they swarm like a cloud around the parents but vanish when seperated from them(or get eaten by them!).This didn't work out so I removed fry.
I have 3 batches of fry in my 1/3 full 29 g tank now(around 200-300).I still see them but they are only a couple days in?
So today I mixed th ro with my conditioned tap as the next "thing" I haven't tried yet.
I AM WIDE OPEN TO ANY IDEAS OF HOW TO EVEN GET TO 50% SURVIVAL.


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## Arthur7

What they feed on the many young fish? Micro worms, Artemia or sifted Cyclops- dust?
So they grow well.
plingfactory: life in water


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## coralbandit

They are getting Golden pearls 5 micron or less,decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, sera micron growth food,astaxanthin powder and fresh BBS(artemia).
I also add frozen BBS,rotifers and green water cultured from the astaxanthin powder.


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## chenowethpm

I can't wait to get another pair of these awesome little guys. You're the man CB. Everyone should pay attention!


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## coralbandit

I do feel greatful to have any sucess,but at the same time am frustrated that I can't raise a higher %.I'm missing something and I just don't know what it is?
I could be at 500-1000 fry every month for the last 4 months but have only raised maybe 100?I'm willing to do the work,I just don't know what I should be doing different.


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## Leclair10

Sorry I haven't been around..........had a move and two knee surgery's,life kinda sucks right now.

So your still having troubles with survival rates? I've had a couple more batches and I'm refining my techniques abit and getting good survival rates.
I still stick to a little aquarium and RO for the fry for a week after I pull them. I feed liquid fry food and a flake "paste" that I make using a coffee grinder. My last batch was over 300 and I'd estimate the survival rate was 80 to 90%.


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## coralbandit

Leclair10 said:


> Sorry I haven't been around..........had a move and two knee surgery's,life kinda sucks right now.
> 
> I feed liquid fry food and a flake "paste" that I make using a coffee grinder. My last batch was over 300 and I'd estimate the survival rate was 80 to 90%.


How many feedings a day?


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## Leclair10

Up to 5X a day more when I'm off work.......I believe that feeding is a big key in survival rates. The liquid and paste foul the water so I change water like crazy as well. After I can see they are growing and developing I switch over to tap water and BBS. I do however keep them in pure RO until they start eating BBS. The tap water and PH of 7.8 are perfect for development.
The cool thing with that is the fry turn "orange" and you know they are big enough for BBS..

I also find that using a 5 gallon BB tank with sponge filter works great and very easy to watch and keep clean. I wipe sides and bottom with every WC.


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## coralbandit

I really appreciate you checking back in!
Hope your knees are getting better.
I'll be increasing my feeding to 3-5 times a day as my schedule allows.This may be the whole issue(I really hope it is!).


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## Leclair10

I'm thinking if you feed more your chances have greatly improved. IME these little bastards eat lots and often!! Good luck and I'll keep checking back!


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## aquatic-life

Hello 
I had the same problem when raising betta fries.. My survival rates improved based on 2 things:
feeding more often
water changes
Fries are usually the most sensitive the first week or 2 once that period passed the chances of keeping the most of them alive is on your side.My first problem was : overfeeding 2 BIG doses every day,which resulted into polluting the water,and killing the majority of the fry..
I learned to feed the same amount but divided into 4-6 distribution.
I don't like it.. but sometimes to have a high survival rate I usually drop a dose of sera baktopur/omnipur into the tank during the first 2 weeks when they are born just to make sure there is nothing to bother them.

I don't know if it is similar for the GBR but for the betta fry,there is always a difference in size between the fish in the fry.
The biggest ones will usually take all the food first,leaving for the small weak ones a bit to eat,to grow,and to stay strong.(mother nature law,only the strong will live)that is why I usually separate the big ones together and the smaller ones in another tank,to avoid loosing the small ones.

Water changes is very important in my opinion,keeping a clean water is the key to get a fast and a healthy growth.Baby betta when they poo they release hormones that block the growth of the others.To get a full grown betta in 6 months I had to make 100% water changes every day,max every other day.And indeed when I made more water changes there was a faster growing.I don't think it should be different for the GBR?

Since they are born I feed brine shrimp freshly hatched till they begin to accept powder,flakes,granulates.
But brine shrimp are the best,to make them grow and keep them healthy.


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## coralbandit

I really think you two steered me in the right direction.Big thanks to Leclair and Oliver!
It is easy to jump to conclusions early in the game,but I have been feeding 4-6 times a day and changing water like it was my job(it is!) and I can actually see the fry are growing,more active and stay in a good group!
By now I wouldn't be able to find all but 1 maybe!
fresh batch of fry hatched this am and the parents moved them from clay pot to wood.
These are my yougest parents that i kept from the group just traded in 2 weeks ago(F2 or F3?).
If this is all there is to this then I'm about to have a WHOLE BUNCH of GBR as I have 5 pair in seperate tanks now and am working on getting a couple more 5 and/or 10 g tanks for the fry!
THANKS YOU GUYS I COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT YOU!


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## coralbandit

OK it really could be as simple as more feeding and more waterchanges!The fry I have now(maybe 100?) seem to be doing great and I even see a couple that are 2-4 times bigger than others.
I ordered a new air pump for my "fishroom" and 4 more small heaters(aqueon pro 100w). 
I think I'm going to get 4-5 5 g tanks and 4 10g tanks!
Right now I have fresh fry still on log(not free swimming yet{today or tomorrow} and even my 40b I keep my GBR community(breeding stock) has 3 sets of eggs in it.
I moved 2 sets of eggs(one on wood other on terra cotta dish) into a 20tall with the male only.
Along with the numerous small feeding and basic waterchanges I think the wiping the glass(atleast the bottom) is making a big difference!
Kind of feel like I'm(the GBR fry) are on an upswing!Sometimes just a little info ,reminder of how you did it,even encouragement could be all one needs.Thanks to everyone again!


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## chenowethpm

I love this thread CB. It's been so informative. GBR are one of my favorites and I'm about to get another pair.


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## coralbandit

CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No clue what happened but I saw it in fronty of my eyes!
Weds morning I could see something wasn't right.The fry were no longer in a group and swimming actively?I could even see a couple dead ones!
I changed water and fed throughout day as I have been, but just kept finding more dead ones.At least I see the dead ones as all other times they are here today and gone tomorrow(not even bodies).If there are more then 4 left then I'm lucky.
I have no clue what is going on but I will continue with the multiple feedings and waterchanges daily as they could have no bad result.Just when things look up you step off a cliff?
This is going to be a long road.


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## aquatic-life

Hey Tom,sorry for your fry :/ I know how it feels to lose a fry and you are not able to help.. 

I had this problem many times and the reason was the famous ich! or oodinium,when I watched my fry closely sometimes I saw some small white spots on the fry,what I did is add a dose of SERA costapur,(or any ich treatment) to the water,the fry are really sensitive if attacked by a disease,that's why as i mentioned,even if it is not advised,but I prefer to help the fry to reach a week or two to add a general med just in case..(I use them as prevention..)because if the fry is attacked by a disease it is usually a complete lost.. :/
If I were you I will add a med for ich,baby fish are so sensitive against this disease and can wipe all the fry in no time.this was my problem usually when every hour I come back to found many fish dead on the bottom,and few staying at the bottom,not dead yet.. but will be soon..
Just don't give up! I know it feels really bad


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## coralbandit

The ups and downs of this is like living in mountains(I kind of do{the Adirondacks}).I never thought of ich or a disease to be completely honest Oliver,what a good point.
I have no problem accepting blame for something I am completely responsible for and although I say I have no clue , I going through the usaull list,water,water water and maybe food or temp? All are good.
The good news with the bad is I have a seperate tank of new free swimmers this am so I fed them live BBS and just started to work on them. I will definately try my usuall ich med in a much lower dose if I continue to have problems.
If everything went perfect all the time I would be a commercial breeder by now(LFS just called wanting more GBR and Apistos!),but I will have a much greater sense of accomplishment if/when I ever get this right.
Thanks Oliver I really never even would have thought about disease.I will treat in a preventative dose!


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## aquatic-life

You're most welcome Tom,it really feels great that my advices are helping you!
That's great for your new fry! 
A commercial breeder,what a great thing! specially for GBR and apistos! that due to long travel during importing them,arrive very fragile to aquarium keepers. that's great really!
I wish you all the best! and hold one you will have total success just a bit more to control it from all sides! Your method of raising them seem perfect.


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## Arthur7

First, I'm very sorry for what has happened. But I know that.
Killi-juveniles who fled still not got out of the pond, get Oodinium or Costia. Where do the pathogen? From the brine shrimp? Or from the Walther worms. I do not believe in that.
I suspect, not the fish are sick, but the pelvis.
Then I take out the fish and disinfect the sink with hot water.
Everywhere on the discs, on the ground and on the plants are the seeds. Most fish can only see them.
There is no proof, but I believe it.


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## coralbandit

Quick update on rams and apistos.
Traded in 17 apistos and 26 rams this weekend.($146 in store credit).
I did keep 6 of the apistos who are all in a 40B with live plants,terra cotta pots and trays.I'm trying to be patient but they are probly 1 year old now so they need to get moving!
I got a betta tank(http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Blue-Professional-ADB11006-2-3-Gallon/dp/B00BUFTDNO ),and 1 5g along wth ordering 3-4 more 5g's.I haven't set any up yet.
I had 2 pair in a divided 30B who both laid eggs and became free swimming the same day the 40B communtiy of GBR had a massive amount of free swimmers!I never even saw any eggs!
I pulled the divider,syphoned the fry in 40B directly to the 30B(with other 2 batches) and removed 1 pair of adults.I left one pair of adults with the fry as the behavior and activity level of fry with /without the parents is night and day!I left the fry with parents around 5-6 days.In this time the fry went from 600-150?
I moved parents yesterday.
Hopefully I have a decent amount of fry still in the 30B.This is kind of opposite the direction I was /am going(with 5g tanks) ,but I'm opene to try ANYTHING!
I now have 4 pair in their own tanks;20L,2 in 20 T and 1 pair in a 10 fully planted with gravel and pot.The pair in the ten are largest and lay eggs weekly,Yet they eat the eggs EVERYTIME in 2 days!
The others are doing well.
I'll update when I set up all the 5's or something good to report(hopefully good/not bad!).
When I set up all the 5's I will scrub and sterilise all my empty tanks,and start a huge effort with the rams!


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## chenowethpm

I've been looking for a pair of apistos at my lfs. The last pair they had looked like it was on death's door so I passed on them. They haven't gotten any in a while. Awesome fish though. Seems like you're doing an awful lot right!


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## aquatic-life

Hello Tom! 
These are some great news!! 
happy for you!
I hope you are having a great week


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## coralbandit

chenowethpm said:


> I've been looking for a pair of apistos at my lfs. The last pair they had looked like it was on death's door so I passed on them. They haven't gotten any in a while. Awesome fish though. Seems like you're doing an awful lot right!


My apistos took atleast 2-4 time longer to "grow out" compared to the GBR and are still the pickiest eaters?They just look at me almost everyday with a WTF look?I offer only the best next to live.Even with this they are skinny to "healthy looking" AT BEST!
They are a tough fish,and I really hope I get something out of the 6 I kept(2 males at least?),as I started only with 2 pair over a year ago.So having six and credit for fry makes me completely even I'd like to get a little ahead!
The rams as challenging as they are and still my main focus have paid me back and made alittle to boot!It is nice if your hobby can support itself.I'm on over 1 year of not spending ANY money at my #1 LFS and still sit on $500 store credit.
I still spend some money on web sites or for co2 ,but all in all it is good ,just like a little better(don't we all?).


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## coralbandit

Cleaning and moving today.
Moved 17 juvis from the 30 long to the 55.
They really seem to appreciate all new water and everything!
Have been doing around 10g every other day on the 30B with fry.
There are still 50? fry and they are all staying in a school/shoal group(this is a good sign!).I let new replacement water water drip back in over 1 hour for 5g.It seems to be working.


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## coralbandit

Just Caught 1 pair of the apistos(almost a hidden male{meaning he was not the dominat appearing})laying eggs on a broken pot in the 40B with all 6!
I actually caught both male and female,pot and plants in area and transferred them to a 29g 1/2 filled(and waiting for a pair!).
I actually counted 3 eggs on the pot.
Even if I TOTALLY disturbed them I know they will do this again!
I am excited to have at least 1 pair to keep my line going.
LFS said they have 4 different kinds of apistos last weekend,maybe I'll check them out tomorrow.
See new eggs with a pair of GBR just moved on Sat to the 30 long the juvis were in!


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## aquatic-life

Hello Tom!! These are some greaattt news!


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## discusbreeder

If your parents prove unreliable you can suspend a fishing lure with red markings, remove the hooks, in the tank. The fry will shoal around the color and behave more like they do with parents. Suspend the lure above the last depression the parents put the fry in and they will bed down there at night. Keeping them in group cuts the losses in the fry at night. The fry hide in crevices at night if alone and die from oxygen deprivation from lack of flow or cannot escape in the morning. They also get into gravel and become entrapped so it is better to utilize sand for a substrate. Your clay pots are the type of substrate they prefer to breed on for both rams and most apistos but the apistos generally prefer a small cave, small unbroken pot works great. it is not unusual for apistos without a proper brooding cave to tunnel into plants or dig beneath filters. While java moss makes a good hiding place it also makes a good trap for the small fry. Hair algea is a better hiding place a less likely trap for the fry. It also breeds the types of micro fauna the fry feed on. Your only choices for feeding are frozen microbes from biological supply house or finely pulverized flake food.


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## discusbreeder

I keep seeing feeding debates that show disparity. This along with a general lack of fish health issues. For starters I breed rams in a well seasoned tank. The tank has been running on the same filter setup for seven years without a water change or major cleaning. Now that I have your attention let me explain. This system has two fifty fives, a forty five and a thirty on a single filter setup. The filter system holds 210 gallons of water and is constantly circulating through the tanks. It is composed of four fifty five gallon plastic drums. The first is a sediment chamber allowing large waste items to sit and break down. The second filter chamber is three quarters filled with floss to trap small particles and break them down before they clog up the two nitrogen oxygenation chambers. The third chamber is filled with river gravel, well washed, and begins nitrogen breakdown. The fourth is filled with well washed volcanic rock and keeps the final stage of nitrogen synthesis. The volcanic rock also keeps minerals in the water that helps to keep plants and fish healthier. I only clean the front class of the tanks and occasionally vacuum the tanks into the filter system. Water is added to the system to counter evaporation. The main fifty five is heavily planted and the others are bare glass. The algal growth on the tank walls provide a habitat for the microbes that these tiny fry feed on in the wild. And the fry graze every waking moment. They can strip a end wall of a fifty five in a day. Even with a healthy tank a large school will still require supplemental feeding. The tank is simply not a large enough area to feed them properly.


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## coralbandit

I totally dig the difference there can be.It seemed very quickly that myself not feeding 6 times a day may have been my flaw!
I do not believe this today!
Sorry!
I counted today and have aprox 40 fry/juvi from a totall of aprox 600 I would say .This is the 3 breeds in total.
But they look good.They are in a 30B(36x18) and seem to be "past the point of my concern".
I think the java moss and Hair algae could be a serious factor!
Too many times I saw swordtail fry get "caught up" in the Java Moss.It catches stuff like a furnace filter.
Unfortunatley I just sorted out (for real) like all the hair algae from my moss(throwing the algae away).
This will not happen again!
Hard enough to grow moss at elavated temps,the hair algae thing makes total sense.
Thanks!
How funny I search for more on your filter and here is some!
Please share more on how you are running your set up and any help with the GBR is hugely appreciated(my passion).
For everyone (old school on this post) I'm pretty pshyched on having 40 fry!Was getting close to 0 ,which hasn't happened since start of thi thread!I would really like to get this right!


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## Leclair10

I wasn't gonna weigh in here but................. I have been breeding Rams and Discus for years. My pictures here show I can breed Rams. I'd like some clarification to these comments-

"This along with a general lack of fish health issues"

IMO and IME a fish with health issue will not lay eggs or breed. Also in one of your other posts you talk of buying Rams from pet stores...........sorry all my breeding pairs are Wild caught. The only domestic Rams are the off spring......and those I can't breed fast enough for pet stores and hobbyists in my area.


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## coralbandit

Leclair10 said:


> The only domestic Rams are the off spring......and those I can't breed fast enough for pet stores and hobbyists in my area.


NICE!
And do to poor breeding skills or whatever????? This is where I am at!
I can't breed these guys fast enough.
Help.
*r2


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## discusbreeder

Leclair10 said:


> I wasn't gonna weigh in here but................. I have been breeding Rams and Discus for years. My pictures here show I can breed Rams. I'd like some clarification to these comments-
> 
> "This along with a general lack of fish health issues"
> 
> IMO and IME a fish with health issue will not lay eggs or breed. Also in one of your other posts you talk of buying Rams from pet stores...........sorry all my breeding pairs are Wild caught. The only domestic Rams are the off spring......and those I can't breed fast enough for pet stores and hobbyists in my area.


So obviously you do well and understand how your method works. I have been breeding fish since 1970, have bred 763 species, and have had to stop breeding every species I ever bred for pet stores due to overstock of species. From corys to frontosa, venustus to bumblebee cats (south American species), discus to bettas. I am currently sitting on a thousand green corys( or bronze cory, anues species) that I am currently breeding because stores in the area could not find healthy stocks. My basic argument wit most people on health issues is that they over sanitize their tanks and then cannot properly feed small fry. They then contaminate their tanks trying to feed them with unnatural foods that they cannot digest completely. Using the corys as an example; a breeding cycle yields 9grams of eggs. The total weight at hatch is about 7.3 grams. Properly fed these fry should double their weight three times in two weeks, 58.4 grams. After this they should double their weight every four weeks until adults. At adult threshold they weigh in pounds not grams. If the growth rate is not stable then feeding is not sufficient either in amount or types of foods.


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## coralbandit

Quick update:
40 fry doing great in the 30B.Eating frozen tubiflexand some crushed flakes now.Saw biggest one eat a frozen blood worm today!
New free swimmers in the specV with my youngest parents.There are probly over 100.They are very active ,I leave light on 24/7 and feed as often as possible with frozen BB and sera powder.Changing 1-2 g a day and dripping replacement in slowly.So far so good!I think the parents need to out a little sooner than last time(4 more days maybe)?
All other pairs were laying eggs that went bad in 24 hours so I put them all back into a 30long together to form new pairs if they will?
No new eggs from the apistos yet but they are getting very well colored and happy looking in the 29 by themselves.1 old piece of dry mopani turned their tank yellow as could be.
Also just ordered 10 GBR from California to keep my lines mixed and fresh.Really can't wait to get them mixed in with my guys and girls.


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## coralbandit

Fry in specv were eaten by parents.They were active and eating so maybe better luck next time.I think this was the pairs first spawn.
3 sets of eggs in the community 30g yesterday.I moved 2 with 1 set of parents and they have moved all eggs and fry to a corner of their tank.Third set of eggs also hatched this am and moved into a pot by parents.
GBR from CA are supposed to arrive today so I'll check back in later after I know how they shipped.
The smallest fry were moved to 33g long and seem very happy with new tank and a small hob to make more current.


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## coralbandit

10 GBR arrived from Ca. in wonderful condition.Sitting in my driveway(around 54 outside today) and they were still 78 without a heat pack!.Insulated box,newspaper and papertowel and 4 seperate heat sealed kordon breather bags with 3 in 2 an 2 in 2.
All acclimated to my tank(they also are in tap water(7.6 pH) when sold.My tank was all ro/di,but I also prepped 32g of tap.So after testing pH I dumped 1/2 of the 40b and added back pre warmed tap and got these guys loose in under 1 hour!
They are actually a little smaller then my last 17 I thought about trading in this weekend,but maybe I should just mix the two groups?
How should I go about mixing my lines?
Mix them and let nature do it?
Or actually mix 1:1 mine to theirs?
I have a little while to figure this out as they are in what some may call QT.
Honestly i just prepped a seperate tank and am in no hurry to mix until I know it is safe.
Pair in the specv is laying eggs again tonight!


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## coralbandit

OK all 10 from CA are still doing great! Need to figure out how to mix them with mine?
Taking a different approach on the fry parent thing this time.
Have 3 sets of fry with one set of parents all freeswimming!
Let them hang and bound for 2-3 days and have put the parents in to breeding nets(seperated male and female just for hummanity)in the tank with em still,but unable to eat any.
Did this yesterday and all still seem fine today.
Pair in the specv has hatched fry probly free swimming tomorrow or Sun?

So how do I mix mine and theirs? I may start a seperate thread asking for help(I know some here are way more up on breeding then me{help!}).


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## Arthur7

I can not help you, but congratulations.


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## aquatic-life

Hello Tom! 
what is the problem of mixing them? you mean you are afraid that they will fight? 

If this is the case,I suggest that you put the new ones in an acclimation box,in the aquarium where yours GBR are.And see how they react with each others.I used to do like that when I want to introduce a new female to a male betta,because the male if he doesn't accept her,will kill her or worse she will kill him


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## coralbandit

No problem mixing them(I have a large enough tank to accomodate them).
I just want them to cross.
I am probly overthinking this,but really want to make sure I get fry and know they are from both new and old.
I will probly just group them together and let them pair up.


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## aquatic-life

Hello Tom! 
Oh okay! Yeah! and feed them with live food,many time per day,make water changes with a softer water and increase the temperature a bit 
it will excite them to breed--> to form pairs
Keep us updated!!


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## coralbandit

So still doing well with the 40 fry/juvi in the 33 long.They eat frozen blood worms and flake food with no issues.Started replacing their water with tap today and will add no more ro/di to their tank.
The California juvis and mine are doing great.Looks like possibly a couple pairs as small as they are already!Got to get more tanks running for them.
Had massive egg hatch and fry in last week with 2 pair holding clouds of 200+ free swimming fry, all gone by day 4 free swimming!
Do have aprox 10-20 fry (2weeks old) in the 30B doing well.Just pulled their parents from tank as they have been in the net traps.I wonder if their is a hormone from the parents?They(the parents) just got moved to completely clean20g.
Ordered a micro worm culture($7) which should arrive Monday.Hope these turn my survival rates around!


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## coralbandit

Set up my 5 g tanks yesterday(made rack/stand) and got all 4 of them on bottom with room for 4 more above.
This am before work I got to move 3 pair with eggs into them!
Microworm culture arrived and I split it into 2 and should have some worms to harvest by tomorrow or atleast by the time any of the 3 sets of eggs hatch.
Hopefully I can get this working a little better?


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## Arthur7

In microworms several small doses put on.
I have 4 pieces. (Plast doses 5x5x5cm of ice) with children Oatmeal, milk and yeast inoculated with the culture. After 2 days, the worms crawl up the wall. From there, remove with a small brush. This is about 4 days. Then no more crawling up. Now I make 2 new cans. So that it overlaps in time. The 4 small cans together in a plastic box on a warm setting (near heating). I have quite a few years. Good luck.
Maybe it benefits you something.


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## coralbandit

Arthur7 said:


> The 4 small cans together in a plastic box on a warm setting (near heating). I have quite a few years. Good luck.
> Maybe it benefits you something.


No light?
I wish I could add more pics but I'm full now.I have 3 of my 4 5g tanks with fry right now!I really hope the smaller tanks and the microworms make the difference!
I probly have around 80 juvis right now in my 55 and 33 tanks(2 litters a month apart aprox.)These guy look great but they represent less then 10% of the fry from eggs!
I am also adding tap to the fry on day 3 of free swimming.
Alot of changes all at once,but hopefully I'll figure out what works and doesn't(oh yea eggs in my 30g long just incase the 5's don't workout will not be moved).
Gots lots of fry and eggs ,just need a little help to get to a higher success level.
I have become obsessed!If I stuck to my original goal(in life and fishkeeping)to always put back more then I take then I could have quit the rams last year!
I really want to get this right!


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## Arthur7

The box is translucent (clear plast). Space daylight, not separately.

With so many juveniles should more micro approaches inoculate.
The feed is small because found in the Great Basin?


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## coralbandit

I'm running 2 cultures and just started 2 more.
I need to look into other live foods I can grow easily myself.
Any ideas?


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## majerah1

Grindal worms are a favorite of my fishes. Easy to culture. Also scuds. All you need is indian almond leaves and water. They will eat the leaves and will breed like crazy. I feed mine algae wafers once a week too which they seem to enjoy.


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## Arthur7

Grindal later, when the young fish are larger.


Spirostomum ambiguum - Information on Spirostomum ambiguum - Encyclopedia of Life

Stefansbachtal Gevelsberg: Leben in Teich und Garten: Rädertiere (Rotatoria)


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## majerah1

Yep, I feed mine on Vinegar eels if they are tiny, then microworms, then baby brine shrimp, then grindals then on to frozen foods. Not sure of fry size with rams. But this is my feeding of betta splendens. My wilds can go straight to grindals and bbs.


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## coralbandit

I did a little more research and found the vinnegar eels also.They look like what I need according to a discus site thread on GBR.
They are tiny Bev. BBS are almost bigger if not the smallest of hatch!
The microworms really do seem to work,but I may get into the vinnegar eels out of convience(way less work then micros) and the fact they are even smaller then micros.The fry are so small I'm sure size and live movement is what they need.
Eitherway all fry in 5g tank(3 sets) are really doing great.I do see them eat the micro worms and wonder if the tap water this early may help?
I am also keeping low powered lights on 24/7.
Fingers crossed BIG TIME that I am getting closer.
With better success I could generate around 1,000 a month right now!(I have to change a couple tanks{bye bye 75 reef and 75 swordtail tank!})but no big deal.


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## majerah1

Tom, if you would like, I know someone with some vinegar eels. I can talk to her and see if she can send some for shipping? They are very easy to culture, and I have some from her myself. Very prolific little culture.


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## coralbandit

majerah1 said:


> Tom, if you would like, I know someone with some vinegar eels. I can talk to her and see if she can send some for shipping? They are very easy to culture, and I have some from her myself. Very prolific little culture.


ALL ABOUT IT!
Thankyou so much BEV!
Pm on its way.


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## coralbandit

OK I haven't started with the vinnegar eels ,but they are here(ramping up) and appear smaller then the micros.
The micros are making a HUGE difference in my fry survival and growth!
I have around 80-100 that are a month old,200 about 2 weeks old and a fresh 300 a couple days old with 4 pairs tending eggs or non free swimming fry fight now!Most info I have found and my experience is if they last longer then 2 weeks the majority left will survive!
The live food and small tanks(5g) are making this all work better.
I think I just need the next size up from BBS or micros for my juvis.Would this be grindals?The 1 month olds still eat the micro worms with frozen BBS and cyclops.The live food is sort of spoiling them and making the switch over to prepared food more diffacult,but I think I can work this out.If this is the final process I continue with I will end up getting 3-4 @5gallon tanks for each pair I breed.I am having good luck moving fry within the first 3 days free swimming,and have kept one group(in 3 different tanks)in the view of their parents,which seems to be working well?The fry and parents certainly do see each other so I think this helps alittle but not all fry will get this chance.
Definately have some ready to trade and am thinking of offering breeding pairs and even some of my adult pairs.The mix from CA and mine is going to be more then enough in short order.I have 4 pairs of mine and 4 pairs of the mixed breeding weekly(within every 10 days) right now!
Couple day old fry;

The breeding station;


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## discusbreeder

good to see things are going well


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## Arthur7

Continued success.
BTW well pictures


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## majerah1

Nice! 

Those little LED light strips, what kind are they and where did you get them? Am thinking of a few for my breeding rack.


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## coralbandit

majerah1 said:


> Nice!
> 
> Those little LED light strips, what kind are they and where did you get them? Am thinking of a few for my breeding rack.


those are current true lumen PROS.24v .
They're pricey even when on sale at petmountain or dfs.
I still have to try the reef bars that I recommended to woody for his reef.HE DIDN'T like them for reef,but for fw they are good lights.I use 12k and mixed,but they offer 8k(I got all mine for marine also).The reef bars are less then 1/2 the currents price making them affordable.

I am trying to consider a real breeding station and wonder if there are any disadvantages to plastic bins over real glass?I will post a thread on this specifically.


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## Arthur7

I use "coupling 24". The correct length for 15 G. 2 pieces give enough light.


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## coralbandit

Update time;
Moving day for fry and juvis!
Yes I think the micro worms and smaller tanks are helping.
Moved all juvis into the 55 after a 75% water change.
At least 3 pairs laying eggs on the sponge filters already! Half these guys have been in 55 for a month or so.
I have more fry that are keeping all my tanks full and moving.
I haven't built my second breeding station yet,but am now leaning towards 10g tanks with the petco sale coming up.
I also have spoken with a few other GBR breeders and may try keeping 1 male for each 4-5 females,and giving the girls a break from him while he tours from tank to tank.
I'll post more soon with pics.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!


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## coralbandit

Traded 40 yesterday.Working on higher or more steady survival rates for first 2 weeks.It is still hit or miss?
Picked up a young pair of pearl gouramis and a new 20 long to give me something easier to do,since I have no more swords.
The live foods definitely help.


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## Arthur7

I would like to tell something.
If the young fish in a smaller vessel feeding with live food, I already had losses. Although I had regularly renewed half water. Sucked off the dirt from the floor.
I changed the procedure. For a year I take the whole pelvis, and pour it with fish in a large white bowl. Then I bring the water to a rotation. The empty vessel inside has a nursery of micro-organisms. I wash off in the bathroom. When I come back, the water is calm. In the middle of a pile of dirt is. I Suck off and a little more water (half). Then I pour everything back into the empty pool. New plants to (Sumatrafarn, grows in the large pool). I Pad stood by water.
It does not take more time than before.
But it has since nothing happened to me with the juveniles.

I hope it helps you.


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## treliantf

Welcome back, Bandit!!!


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## coralbandit

<a href=http://www.aquariumforum.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38634><img src=http://www.aquariumforum.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=38634&size=1 border=0></a>
Latest to come from my breeding efforts!
A whole batch of yellow GBR!
Still going strong on a MUCH more active forum ,not TPT(Not so sorry VS!)
So if people just don't know where to go for a good "Aquarium" site I may have some "Advice"!
This site used to be so active.
Susan good to see you post on another thread I was getting worried about you.
Everyone enjoy!
Arthur I wish you would tell me what you think of this guy!


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## susankat

Thanks Tom, I'm still kicking just not as much as I used to, Age and health has caught up with me fast this year. But doing everything possible to keep my health going.


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## Arthur7

Hello, Tom,
It's a wonderful yellow cultivar. A nice picture. And I am glad that everything is back in order. We continue.


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## coralbandit

I think of you Susan.Good luck with your health,we are all getting old.
Arthur I do miss speaking with you!
How can you explain my yellow ram from normal looking Mikrogeophagus ramirezi?
Am I lucky with a large batch this color?
I have fry from a pair of the yellow as of yesterday!
I would love to hear more from you.*pc


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## Arthur7

I had ramirezi not bred. But I had to take pictures with breeders from our former club, if they wanted to make a presentation. I liked the fish always. But I had the water too small. It was the ancestral form, cacatuoides.
There are still among the offspring more yellow? And you have yellow couples recognized for breeding?
It may be a mutation. But that's very rare.
It must eventually had trunk with color variations connection with parents. Today there are all colors, blue, orange, red. The lemon yellow I have not yet seen.
If it is dominant, the yellow color is back. If recessive, so it is covered by the normal color. (The phenotype). But in the genotype the property exists, and may occur by chance again.
These genetics is complicated. And practice this takes a lot of time and patience


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## coralbandit

Arthur,
Some of these fish ,4 months old now are still very yellow.
Some are showing GBR markings but lack color.
Yes I have yellow pair which gave me yellow(I hope) free swimmers!
I have been told this rare by several others like you also!!!!
I will continue to research your info(thank you so much).
I will take all the time an be separating a couple of my most yellow fish and separate their fry!

On the rare ram...
What do you know about albino rams?
I find no information at all!
They must be rare since they should exist and I can't find a picture anywhere!

Thank you again Arthur!
Tom


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## big b

Don't worry about it dude. Every animal has an albino form so it's only a matter of time before getting one.


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## Arthur7

Hi, Tom
I was looking for. Have found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_EDTxo-pE8

Süd- und Mittelamerikanische Zierfische - Fish & More in Siegen

There is no written text to, otherwise I would have it translated for you.

I'll keep looking.
Greetings


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