# I Have Absolutely HAD It With Water Changes...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Alright, folks...as I have been promising, I performed a good water change tonight -- actually, it was my wife who figured out how to use the stupid Top Fin gravel vac to make it suction the water...I'll get to that, but right now, because MORE of our home and carpets are soaked with water, and for a plethora of additional reasons, I'm really steamed right now, and it looks as though I am going back to my original sentiment of giving up on this hobby...

Okay. So, I watched a YouTube video that featured some hoochie-looking chick demonstrating how to use a gravel vac -- I tried to get some fast pointers on using these things once again, because I couldn't find the threads and posts from members here regarding detailed instructions (they were some old posts and threads, and I simply couldn't locate them)...

At any rate, after struggling to get any water up and through the Top Fin vac, no matter HOW MANY TIMES I pushed the stupid tube into the water, shook it, did the jerk motion, it did not suck the water up. My wife got up and helped me, and I don't know what she did, but suddenly the water started to pump into our bucket, and continued to flow freely, allowing us to do a good 30% change; in the midst, we sucked up some gunk from the gravel, too, but that just lead to bigger problems...

I added the Prime BEFORE putting fresh water back in, as suggested to me -- but I forgot to shut off the filters before doing the change, and as the water level dropped, the Aqueon filter made weird noises and eventually shut off. I realized it was because the water was so low in the tank, so I quickly pulled the plugs from both filters. Now, if that wasn't bad enough, I had to re-prime the AquaClear with tank water (what a PAIN) and all the while, water is being splashed all over the place as the filters started up again. Meanwhile, during the trips from the room our tank is in to the bathroom where the tub is carrying the bucket, a massive splash (my fault) of tank water cascaded out of the bucket and all over me, my feet and the expensive carpeting that was outside the bathtub. It's just disgusting, and now everything is SOAKED. 

But you know what bugs me more than any of this? The fact that all the pushing and turbulence caused by the gravel vac, and the removal and subsequent addition of water, the plants, gravel and ornaments that were previously in PERFECT place in the tank are now messed up, de-rooted and the gravel has "dips" in it due to the cleaning, where previously, it was smooth and even. I can't STAND this; it's like every time you do maintenance, the whole aquascaping gets messed up -- even my bubble wands have sprung leaks somewhere, since turning them off and the new water hitting them, and now there are like sections of the wands not producing bubbles. This is just utterly ridiculous; on top of that, the evaporated water from the tank has caused disgusting crusty crud to form on the glass center brace and glass versa-tops, some of which was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to remove, even with glass cleaner (when the tops were off the tank, of course)...

Oh -- and I DID try to wipe the diatoms off with my fingers while doing this water change, and they WILL NOT come off. At all. 

At this point, folks, I think I give up. People are telling me this is something that MUST get done on a WEEKLY or even DAILY basis with goldfish? There's NO WAY I can go through what we just went through on a weekly basis, ABSOLUTELY FORGET ABOUT on a daily basis. I understand this hobby takes some dedication, but this I'm just not cut out for, nor can I apply the dedication necessary due to my work schedule and other things. I simply cannot do CONSTANT water changes like this; our house is becoming a mess because of it, and I am not disrupting the tank like I just did every time we have to do one. NOTHING is in the position it was in the tank before the change...

Here's one more thing, which is really like a question -- how often would I have to replace the stupid carbon cartridges in the Aqueon filter? How do I know when they're loaded and need replacing? And, can I rinse these things off instead of replacing them every time they're dirty? The BB doesn't grow on these, do they? Just on the cheap plastic "bio grid" these filters come with, right?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I feel for you, but I have found the easiest way to do water changes is with the python system or one similar. You hook it up to your sink and it will syphon the water out draining in the sink and when your ready just turn the valve to the other direction and add back your water. I change water in a 220 gal tank in less than 30 minutes and don't drop any water on the floor.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Had to smile a little when reading. I understand all you went through.

Using a gravel vac is easier than you think. Getting it started is really easy as long as you don't mind sucking on the end of the hose. I do this even for my 50ft hose with no problems. I do it without putting my lips on the hose most of the time, but don't mind doing that if I need to.

In my opinion, stop worrying about the diatoms or hard water spots. They are common place and your tank is very hard trying to keep looking brand new and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to do so. Some people remove all tank ornaments and soak them in their sinks with a couple of caps of bleach once a month. Cleans off the diatoms very easily. I think if you get the python water change kit you'll have a much easier time refilling. I used to bring the hose in from outside, but since the weather has turned cold, so has the water and can't do it anymore. The python will allow you to connect directly to your faucet. Just turn on the water and trun it off when its full again. As far as shifting gravel around, you just need to be careful as you now see how easily things are shifted around. Can be used for de-watering also, but for that small of a tank I wouldn't bother. Up to you on that.

A lot of this is just getting the rythym of things down. I try to not go below the suction level on the suction on the tanks I have AC filters on....either this or unplug first off. You'll get used to thinking of this before you start.

It does require a few minutes of your time per week - keeping aquariums. You'll get faster and more efficient at it. When I had just one tank (75gal), I used to have my water change and maintenance done in less than a half hour. Now I do 50% water changes on 2-125gal tanks, the 75, and a 29gal. Not to mention producing about 75 gallons or so of RO water. So I do understand.

Hang in there. Don't give up.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Dang lol.
You dont need to suction the gravel when you are doing a planted tank. I only remove water from the water column and the waste of the fish in turn feeds the plants. Also, you dont need carbon cartridges. Just buy poly-fiber at hobby lobby or walmart, cut the size out to where it fits the old cartridge casing and rubberband it on. *


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Suck on the end of the hose next time, just watch the water level as it tastes funky and doesnt feel good in the lungs. Ive never shaked,jerked,drown,choked my gravel vac to get em to work before.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

susankat said:


> I feel for you, but I have found the easiest way to do water changes is with the python system or one similar. You hook it up to your sink and it will syphon the water out draining in the sink and when your ready just turn the valve to the other direction and add back your water. I change water in a 220 gal tank in less than 30 minutes and don't drop any water on the floor.


Susan,

Thanks for your reply and understanding; I have been so advised about the python method, but I don't have a sink near our tank, nor are we willing to run hosing and tubing up and down our stairs to reach a sink...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Mine has a 50ft hose on it (bought the extension piece). You don't have a sink within that range? How you run the tubing is up to you. It could out through a window...whatever. This is really your only option that I'm aware of other than moving the tank to a more suitable location. Sure beats carrying buckets up and down stairs, but I know you already know this. Wouldn't know what to do without mine.

You could also go about it the way you had planned initially. May work out for you, may not.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Using a gravel vac is easier than you think.


I wish I could believe this; we shook, banged, shook, shook, smashed, shook, shook that gravel vac in the water and on the gravel bed, and it just did not want to flow -- it drove me nuts. 



> Getting it started is really easy as long as you don't mind sucking on the end of the hose. I do this even for my 50ft hose with no problems. I do it without putting my lips on the hose most of the time, but don't mind doing that if I need to.


Apparently, this is the top rated suggestion -- but how do you begin a suction without putting your lips on the hose, may I ask?

This is beginning to sound pornographic, but hopefully moderators will understand...



> In my opinion, stop worrying about the diatoms or hard water spots. They are common place and your tank is very hard trying to keep looking brand new and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to do so.


Okay; I just wanted to point out that it was suggested to me -- several times -- to try and wipe the diatoms off with my fingers or something else, and when I attempted to do this during the water change, nothing happened. It's like they're baked into the material the sails are made out of. 

As for the "hard water spots," of which are you referring? 



> Some people remove all tank ornaments and soak them in their sinks with a couple of caps of bleach once a month. Cleans off the diatoms very easily.


I'm not going to remove all ornaments and plants; there's just so much going on, decoration wise, in this tank, it would be too daunting. 



> I think if you get the python water change kit you'll have a much easier time refilling. I used to bring the hose in from outside, but since the weather has turned cold, so has the water and can't do it anymore. The python will allow you to connect directly to your faucet. Just turn on the water and trun it off when its full again.


Not an option, but again thanks for the suggestion. 



> As far as shifting gravel around, you just need to be careful as you now see how easily things are shifted around. Can be used for de-watering also, but for that small of a tank I wouldn't bother. Up to you on that.


I just cannot believe how messed up my aquascaping is now -- nothing is in the original position prior to the water change. 

What do you mean by "de watering"?



> A lot of this is just getting the rythym of things down. I try to not go below the suction level on the suction on the tanks I have AC filters on....either this or unplug first off. You'll get used to thinking of this before you start.


I really didn't think this was going to be a problem because the water level never dropped below the Aqueon's intake pipe -- so why did it shut down? 



> Hang in there. Don't give up.


I'll try...

But just before, I went into the guest bath where the water splash occurred, and the odor coming from the area rug in front of the tub was _horiffic_ -- the carpet must be saturated with dirty tank water, and now we need to clean that rug, if we even can clean it...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *Dang lol.
> You dont need to suction the gravel when you are doing a planted tank. I only remove water from the water column and the waste of the fish in turn feeds the plants. Also, you dont need carbon cartridges. Just buy poly-fiber at hobby lobby or walmart, cut the size out to where it fits the old cartridge casing and rubberband it on. *


I am not running a planted tank, and not switching to planted.

As for the carbon cartridges that come with my Aqueon filter, can I just rinse these out instead of replacing them? Supposedly the BB grows on a plastic "bio grid" on this filter's lip that has nothing to do with the cartridges...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> Suck on the end of the hose next time, just watch the water level as it tastes funky and doesnt feel good in the lungs. Ive never shaked,jerked,drown,choked my gravel vac to get em to work before.


Thanks.

So, just submerge the vac and tube in the tank, and suck on the other end that goes into the bucket?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> You could also go about it the way you had planned initially. May work out for you, may not.


How did I plan it initially?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You just hold the hose tightly in your hand about half way up your hand and suck on the hole created by holding the hose. 

Get a little scrub pad that hasn't been used and scrub the diatoms off with it. 

Dewatering means removing water. 

The filter will only loose suction if the water level drops below the suction point. 

The water spots are the crud you referred to


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> You just hold the hose tightly in your hand about half way up your hand and suck on the hole created by holding the hose.


Forgive me...but I just don't get that... 



> Get a little scrub pad that hasn't been used and scrub the diatoms off with it.


Any kind will do, as long as it's clean? 



> Dewatering means removing water.


Okay...I have to go back and see what context we were talking about it in... 



> The filter will only loose suction if the water level drops below the suction point.


That didn't happen with my Aqueon (didn't drop below suction point) and yet it still went out... 



> The water spots are the crud you referred to


Oh, OK; gotcha. They're all over my center brace, tank lips, etc.


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> I am not running a planted tank, and not switching to planted.


any reason you're so against having a planted tank? it really does help out with the water and the system all together, and there's lots of easy to grow plants that the only requirement you'd have to make sure you reach is the lighting


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

automatic-hydromatic said:


> any reason you're so against having a planted tank? it really does help out with the water and the system all together, and there's lots of easy to grow plants that the only requirement you'd have to make sure you reach is the lighting


Just personal preference and interest level in the hobby.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Ya know....those stupid self siphoning gravel vacs (as you have found) are a real PITA. Sounds good in advertising with "no more sucking on the hose". BS. I got totally tired of it. I would just put the tube in the water and let it fill with water. Place a finger over the other end of the tube. Pull the vac piece up (filled with water). Slightly remove your finger to start a flow. Syphon has started. Place your finger back over the opening, dip the vac back down in the tank, fill and start your vac'ing.

That sounded really winded but it's actually pretty easy once you get it down.

Plants with goldfish...not a good thing actually....for the plants. The goldies are bottomless pits and will eat pretty much anything that is in the tank. Duckweed is actually a good staple for them.

Let me go through this thread again and make sure I didn't miss anything. Just wanted to post right quick hopefully to calm ya down just a tad. ;o)


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Ok....caught up now. I'll touch on a couple more things that hopefully will help as well.

Aqueon filters: I have one on a 20long. At times, it will stop during a water change even with the water level above the intake strainer. My belief on this is that the tubes of the filter aren't a tight seal which allows air in to break the suction. Just my theory. It doesn't happen all the time though. Just once in a while.

The filter media can be rinsed off. Swish it around real good in the old tank water in the bucket. An even better way to do it....do you have a sprayer attachment on your kitchen sink? If so...spray if off using tepid water. If you're on city water, you can soak it in Prime for a few minutes afterwards. I have well water so for me it's just rinse and put back in the filter. Do this until it starts to fall apart. That's when you will replace the cartridge itself.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Ya know....those stupid self siphoning gravel vacs (as you have found) are a real PITA. Sounds good in advertising with "no more sucking on the hose". BS. I got totally tired of it. I would just put the tube in the water and let it fill with water. Place a finger over the other end of the tube. Pull the vac piece up (filled with water). Slightly remove your finger to start a flow. Syphon has started. Place your finger back over the opening, dip the vac back down in the tank, fill and start your vac'ing.
> 
> That sounded really winded but it's actually pretty easy once you get it down.


The packaging claims you need to pump it a few times, and gravity takes over...



> Plants with goldfish...not a good thing actually....for the plants. The goldies are bottomless pits and will eat pretty much anything that is in the tank. Duckweed is actually a good staple for them.


I was aware of this with goldfish, thus another reason I didn't want live plants. I know they'll eat em up like nobody's business... 



> Let me go through this thread again and make sure I didn't miss anything. Just wanted to post right quick hopefully to calm ya down just a tad. ;o)


LOL...I'm alright, James...:betta:


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Ok....caught up now. I'll touch on a couple more things that hopefully will help as well.
> 
> Aqueon filters: I have one on a 20long. At times, it will stop during a water change even with the water level above the intake strainer. My belief on this is that the tubes of the filter aren't a tight seal which allows air in to break the suction. Just my theory. It doesn't happen all the time though. Just once in a while.


Good to know someone else experienced this with an Aqueon...

The thing sounded like it was gonna come apart -- and the water level hadn't dropped below the intake strainer! 



> The filter media can be rinsed off. Swish it around real good in the old tank water in the bucket. An even better way to do it....do you have a sprayer attachment on your kitchen sink? If so...spray if off using tepid water. If you're on city water, you can soak it in Prime for a few minutes afterwards. I have well water so for me it's just rinse and put back in the filter. Do this until it starts to fall apart. That's when you will replace the cartridge itself.


Thank you -- I am unsure if what we're using is "city water," but isn't it okay to rinse these with tap water regardless because the BB is actually growing on those plastic blue "bio grids" Aqueon supplies?

I don't live in a city, but rather in a suburban town; would this be considered "city" water then? I suppose I could just rinse with tap water and do a Prime dip, no?

Also -- are you sure you know which "cartridges" I am referring to? The white cotton "sacks" that hold the carbon? If so, just rinse these until they start to look kind of white again...is that it? When I pull them out, they are kinda black from all the gunk they sucked in -- just rinse these until the black is gone or faded? 

Thanks for your ongoing help...


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> The packaging claims you need to pump it a few times, and gravity takes over...


Yeah...right...pump it a few times and let gravity take over....sure. It does work though...don't get me wrong. But the turbulence it creates when trying to get it there...no thank you. As you have found out, it's more of a pain.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Also -- are you sure you know which "cartridges" I am referring to?


Absolutely. I will tilt the cartridge where it will be somewhat of diamond shape. using the sprayer...start at the top and spray your way down to the bottom. You'll see the gunk come out and white return ... or white-ish depending on how old it is. ;o)


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have an easy sollution to adding water back.I have to do it to fry tanks and dumping water in will kill the babies.So instead,get a cheap drip acclimation kit from the LPS.Place your bucket on top of the tank,and run the drip tube down into the tank.Remove the drip nozzle though.Just let it run in like that.And honestly,i use the same size line with a piece of rigid tubing to use as my siphon to pull out the water too.It works great.I have aplanted tank so its best to not plunge deep into the substrate,which is why planted tanks are much easier.To me at least.

I am sorry about your luck so far.But if you give it time you will get the hang of things and it will become easier.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Absolutely. I will tilt the cartridge where it will be somewhat of diamond shape. using the sprayer...start at the top and spray your way down to the bottom. You'll see the gunk come out and white return ... or white-ish depending on how old it is. ;o)


Gotcha, thanks!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

majerah1 said:


> I am sorry about your luck so far.But if you give it time you will get the hang of things and it will become easier.


I sure hope so. Thanks.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Yeah...right...pump it a few times and let gravity take over....sure. It does work though...don't get me wrong. *But the turbulence it creates when trying to get it there...no thank you. As you have found out, it's more of a pain.*




Totally agreed.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Ya know....those stupid self siphoning gravel vacs (as you have found) are a real PITA. Sounds good in advertising with "no more sucking on the hose". BS. I got totally tired of it. I would just put the tube in the water and let it fill with water. Place a finger over the other end of the tube. Pull the vac piece up (filled with water). Slightly remove your finger to start a flow. Syphon has started. Place your finger back over the opening, dip the vac back down in the tank, fill and start your vac'ing.


+1
This works much better, and my mouth status well away from aquarium water. Mine actually seems to need a little shake from time to time to keep the air going out, but much less destructive than shaking it in the tank. 
perhaps you would be better off with a 5 gallon bucket filled halfway than a 2.5 gallon bucket filled all the way? Or maybe one of those igloo drink coolers they put gator aid in at football games? Even has a spigot to make it easy to drain.

The others are right.. You will find shortcuts and get much better over time, but we all understand the frustration. Most of us have dumped a bucket of water at some point. Hope the spots on the ship sail clears up. I looked at the same ornament when setting up our tank, but the kids wanted the volcano more.

Good luck


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

mfgann said:


> +1
> This works much better, and my mouth status well away from aquarium water. Mine actually seems to need a little shake from time to time to keep the air going out, but much less destructive than shaking it in the tank.
> perhaps you would be better off with a 5 gallon bucket filled halfway than a 2.5 gallon bucket filled all the way? Or maybe one of those igloo drink coolers they put gator aid in at football games? Even has a spigot to make it easy to drain.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Matthew. Appreciate the encouragement; I hope I can keep up with this hobby.

As for the sails, I couldn't rub the diatoms off with my fingers when my hand was in the tank, so they're on there pretty good -- I really hope these burn themselves off at some point.

Do you have any pics of your tank(s)? I'd love to see the volcano ornaments...

Never mind -- I am checking them out now in your gallery!


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Did not know it was not a planted tank, also did not know you were keeping goldfish xD. Sorry. Yes they will eat plants like theres no tomorrow, goldfish and plants together = no no. I still do the sucking on the tube thing to get my siphon started. But I do not put my mouth on the hose. I wrap my hand around the bottom end of the hose and I suck from there so my mouth doesnt touch the tube. Its really easy.*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *.....I wrap my hand around the bottom end of the hose and I suck from there so my mouth doesnt touch the tube. Its really easy.*


That's what I was talking about, but if I need to touch it then I just do it.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> get a cheap drip acclimation kit


 Absolutely. I drip new water in on the fry and shrimp tanks as well. I always have for the fry and recently started with the shrimp as I would loose some during water changes. The other tanks, I just pour it in slowly.

One recommendation I would have for this though would be to place a piece of plywood under the bucket. This keeps the weight distributed across the tank instead of one corner.

Simple piece of airline tubing and a single gang valve. Works like a charm.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Hi - trying to help on the other topic (diatoms) the diatoms aren't coming off? Do they feel slimy or do they feel like cloth?

My two cents (save enough of these two cents and you can buy yourself and your spouse cups of coffee)

How to not disarrange your gravel: Put a plate in the bottom of your tank. A luncheon plate works great. If you don't want to use a plate you eat from in the tank, get one from Goodwill or the DAV. Then when you refill the tank, pour the water over the plate. The force of the water hits the plate, not the gravel. Everything stays pretty much in place. 

Annoying to start gravel vaccuums: I like vaccuums that have the squeeze bulb in the middle so you can pump them with your hand instead of sucking, submerging or bopping them up and down. Python also has a squeeze bulb that you can buy separately that works by just adding it to the end of your already existing siphon so you can use it to start the siphon. 

Hard water scale: I like those little plastic scrapers you get at the hardware store for cleaning paint mistakes off of glass - usually cost less than a dollar, really only a razor blade in a holder, but they take the crap right off. Have to be a little more careful with the plastic surfaces, but not much. With the tank lids, a spray of vinegar (I keep a spray bottle of vinegar in the kitchen for cleaning anyway) and letting them sit a bit before I start scraping makes things easy. If you make it a part of your weekly water change routine it becomes a very small job, just like dusting. You run a wet rag over the tops and lights to wipe down the dust, take the lids to the sink for a quick rinse and scrape to get the tiny bit that built up over the course of the week, run the scraper over anything you can see with the lids off, take out some water, take out anything that you want to scrub, put it back, refill the water, then put the lids back and you're done. 

Hope this helps.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

For refilling in my planted tanks where the substrate is super light and plants can easily be uprooted, I use a regular old food strainer. I usually only put in 2.5 gal at a time for the RO water I add.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I guess this is part of the "your own experience" I mentioned in another thread.

sorry and if it helps we have all had similiar experiences.

IMHO one of the things the "water change" crowd (almost everyone) fails to mention is that the water change itself can stress the tank and its owner. 

Plus IMHO it does not totally correct the underlying situation which is the tank itself is not balanced out enough to take care of changes.

Even with plant eaters you can have thriving plants by simply partitioning the tank with a small planted area behind and what you have now in front. 

But that's just my experience.

Worth at most.

Dah da:

.02


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> IMHO one of the things the "water change" crowd (almost everyone) fails to mention is that the water change itself can stress the tank and its owner.


*I EI dose on my high tech tank, so I have to do water changes once a week to reset the system. If I dont do water changes, my tank will burst out in algae. *


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Is this the thread you were talking about with the gravel vac instructions?: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f65/im-pretty-much-my-wits-end-8980.html

Some of this is just a little bit of getting used to. As you get more experience using the gravel vac you will create less havoc in the aquascape when doing it. Also, if you are finding the changes a real pain then a well planted tank might be something to really think about. I don't do water changes in mine. As per beaslbob's model. If you did though you might want to switch from goldfish to something else.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *Did not know it was not a planted tank, also did not know you were keeping goldfish xD. Sorry. Yes they will eat plants like theres no tomorrow, goldfish and plants together = no no.*


*

I thought that was what our signatures were for...*sad*


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you very much, Chris -- I appreciate your continued assistance through all of this...



chris oe said:


> Hi - trying to help on the other topic (diatoms) the diatoms aren't coming off? Do they feel slimy or do they feel like cloth?


Hmmm...good question...I don't remember what they felt like actually...I don't think they were particularly slimy...



> My two cents (save enough of these two cents and you can buy yourself and your spouse cups of coffee)


LOL...I'm savin'! Hopefull for Dunkin' Donuts coffee! *w3



> How to not disarrange your gravel: Put a plate in the bottom of your tank. A luncheon plate works great. If you don't want to use a plate you eat from in the tank, get one from Goodwill or the DAV. Then when you refill the tank, pour the water over the plate. The force of the water hits the plate, not the gravel. Everything stays pretty much in place.


You mean just actually place the plate at the bottom of the tank, and pour?



> Annoying to start gravel vaccuums: I like vaccuums that have the squeeze bulb in the middle so you can pump them with your hand instead of sucking, submerging or bopping them up and down. Python also has a squeeze bulb that you can buy separately that works by just adding it to the end of your already existing siphon so you can use it to start the siphon.
> 
> Hard water scale: I like those little plastic scrapers you get at the hardware store for cleaning paint mistakes off of glass - usually cost less than a dollar, really only a razor blade in a holder, but they take the crap right off. Have to be a little more careful with the plastic surfaces, but not much. With the tank lids, a spray of vinegar (I keep a spray bottle of vinegar in the kitchen for cleaning anyway) and letting them sit a bit before I start scraping makes things easy. If you make it a part of your weekly water change routine it becomes a very small job, just like dusting. You run a wet rag over the tops and lights to wipe down the dust, take the lids to the sink for a quick rinse and scrape to get the tiny bit that built up over the course of the week, run the scraper over anything you can see with the lids off, take out some water, take out anything that you want to scrub, put it back, refill the water, then put the lids back and you're done.
> 
> Hope this helps.


It definitely does; thanks.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I guess this is part of the "your own experience" I mentioned in another thread.
> 
> sorry and if it helps we have all had similiar experiences.
> 
> ...


I am really sorry Bob -- and I don't know what it is -- but I'm just not following you here, for the life of me...:fish9:


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *I EI dose on my high tech tank, so I have to do water changes once a week to reset the system. If I dont do water changes, my tank will burst out in algae. *


I've seen this "EI" reference all over different forums talking about water changes; what does it mean?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Amie said:


> Is this the thread you were talking about with the gravel vac instructions?: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f65/im-pretty-much-my-wits-end-8980.html
> 
> Some of this is just a little bit of getting used to. As you get more experience using the gravel vac you will create less havoc in the aquascape when doing it. Also, if you are finding the changes a real pain then a well planted tank might be something to really think about. I don't do water changes in mine. As per beaslbob's model. If you did though you might want to switch from goldfish to something else.


You don't do _any_ water changes?


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

I field what questions I can, and let them correct me if I'm wrong.


ClinicaTerra said:


> You mean just actually place the plate at the bottom of the tank, and pour?


Yep. Works really good. I forget to suggest this because I aim for the volcano in my big tank and aren't supposed to be changing water in the small (though I aim at the driftwood when I have drained water from it). 


> You don't do _any_ water changes?


Nope. Well.. not supposed to anyway. I have changed some because the driftwood I added started to leech tannins into the water (colored the water like tea). Now I'm back on the wagon, so to speak. The flakes feed the fish, the fish feed the plants, and the plants de-toxify and oxygenate the water. It is a neat system.. the most difficult bit is keeping yourself from wanting to mess with it.

I think what bob was suggesting is that you wall off a section of your tank somehow, while allowing water to pass through. Then plant very heavily behind the partition. Hopefully you'll be able to keep the goldies from eating up the plants this way. Your other option, if you seriously considered plants is to create a refugium... sounds exotic, but its kind of neat. You have a constant water flow between two tanks, one which is your goldie tank, and another, smaller tank that houses a huge planted garden. With the water exchange you get the detoxifying effects of the plants. You could also throw the trimmings in the goldie tank for free feed! *r2


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I have seen (and keep thinking about building) one of those net walls with java moss inside (basically a net sandwich, and java moss is the filling). Java moss has no root system, just a free growing mass, fills in and turns into what looks kind of like a green carpet. I've had java moss in with goldfish and they can't eat it, it is too hard to tear off pieces, they will puff water at it, and suck it into their mouths, but because it won't tear off, things just don't go very far. Very few things can eat java moss. If you did a wall of java, the java would be even more "safe" secured by its netting wall (really more of a base). It isn't at all tough to grow, if anything you may have to trim it now and then. No special light, no special nutrients or anything, and a step toward the no water change lifestyle if that's what you want to do.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm lost here, guys...

Now, I'm just worried about my latest round of API testing results...


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I've only tried one type of water siphon other than a plain hose. It has a kind of balloon half way down that you pump a few times with your hand to start the flow. It works like a charm. The valve on the first one I had broke recently so I bought another which was inexpensive and also works well. Are the siphons people are using here a different type? I'm just interested.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

LOL Not in my planted tank. I do have to replace water that has evaporated but that's it. When I clear my fry out of the tank I am also going to try it with the filter turned off. These are the big advantages of the beaslbob method: a heavily planted tank, no water changes to it and no filter needs to run in it. Basically, the idea is that the tank takes care of itself. The plants give the fish what they need and the fish give the plants what they need. I do still need the fish. I don't want them munching on my plants but it makes things a lot easier. I plan to eventually have this done with all my tanks. I have a bunch of plants coming in the mail right now and when they get here I am planting my 15gal. But that one only has 2 fish in it so I am going to turn the filter off right away.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

City Water = water that's been through the water treatment process at a water treatment facility rather than well water that's just from a well drilled into the local aquifer. That's important because treated water will have chlorine or chloramine in it, and Prime will treat those chemicals, making them less toxic.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have a moss wall,and lemme tell ya,it would be better with weeping or christmas.Java moss doesnt fill in as thick.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So, just submerge the vac and tube in the tank, and suck on the other end that goes into the bucket?


yep, the main goal is to get suction and not break it, keep the end in the water that needs to be there, then start sucking on the other end. Dont be stupid like me and use hoses that are not clear, you will choke bad and it tastes like crap.

I use a 5/8" line and can get 20g of water out of a tank in under 5 minutes. when you have a collection of tanks time is precious at PWC time.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Amie said:


> LOL Not in my planted tank. I do have to replace water that has evaporated but that's it. When I clear my fry out of the tank I am also going to try it with the filter turned off. These are the big advantages of the beaslbob method: a heavily planted tank, no water changes to it and no filter needs to run in it. Basically, the idea is that the tank takes care of itself. The plants give the fish what they need and the fish give the plants what they need. I do still need the fish. I don't want them munching on my plants but it makes things a lot easier. I plan to eventually have this done with all my tanks. I have a bunch of plants coming in the mail right now and when they get here I am planting my 15gal. But that one only has 2 fish in it so I am going to turn the filter off right away.


I don't want to run a live planted tank, but I wish I could be in a position to do no water changes...:fish-in-bowl:

I don't think I'd run no filters, though; just seems wrong without some kind of filtration for them...:fish5: :fish10::betta:


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Best I could tell you then if you don't want plants but want to water changes is to just try it. It might not work at all. Or it might be a little easier. I don't do weekly changes in my other tanks either. Monthly changes usually. But more when or who it is necessary for. For example, my Oscar requires a lot of water changes-he is a very big very messy fish. 

If you want to try here are my suggestions: keep a VERY close watch on your tank. Make sure you take time at least a few times a day to just sit and watch your fish. Get to know their behavior and then you will know when their behavior is not right. Feed them lightly. Too much food will create ammonia and throw things off. Get some good tank cleaners. I, personally, would skip the pleco fish here and look into getting a few snails. The right type of snail will not only help to keep the tank clean but will also be a good indication of poor water quality and potential problems before they effect your fish. And, most important, test your water often with your test kit. Other then that, if your set on skipping the water changes that's the best advice I can give. Oh wait- no it's not though- you should also consider getting a bigger badder filter. Also, don't forget if your going to try this route then you could very likely lose some or all of your fish. So weigh your pros and cons carefully before you make a final decision.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Amie said:


> Best I could tell you then if you don't want plants but want to water changes is to just try it.


Did you mean "if you don't want plants and _don't_ want to do water changes..."?



> It might not work at all. Or it might be a little easier. I don't do weekly changes in my other tanks either. Monthly changes usually. But more when or who it is necessary for. For example, my Oscar requires a lot of water changes-he is a very big very messy fish.


I see...well, monthly would definitely be better for me, with the way I hate doing these...

Anyone who says they actually enjoy doing water changes has to be just south of nutso... 



> If you want to try here are my suggestions:


Do you mean if I want to try NO water changes? 



> keep a VERY close watch on your tank. Make sure you take time at least a few times a day to just sit and watch your fish. Get to know their behavior and then you will know when their behavior is not right.


I do...every day...in the morning and a lot in the evening...



> Feed them lightly. Too much food will create ammonia and throw things off.


I am going to reduce feeding to once daily right now...



> Get some good tank cleaners. I, personally, would skip the pleco fish here and look into getting a few snails. The right type of snail will not only help to keep the tank clean but will also be a good indication of poor water quality and potential problems before they effect your fish.


I was already persuaded by another site not to put cats in my goldfish tank...is there any catfish that can mix with the fancies? :fish-in-bowl:



> And, most important, test your water often with your test kit. Other then that, if your set on skipping the water changes that's the best advice I can give. Oh wait- no it's not though- you should also consider getting a bigger badder filter. Also, don't forget if your going to try this route then you could very likely lose some or all of your fish. So weigh your pros and cons carefully before you make a final decision.


If I am going to lose fish from doing this, it's not worth it -- and I really don't want to invest any more in filtration, as I'm already running two HOBs on this 60 gallon, one being the esteemed AquaClear 110...:betta:


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I think you're getting misled. There's no such thing as no water changes and no plants. You have to get nitrates out and keep ph regulated and carbonate hardness in the good zone some how, and if you don't have plants to do that work for you, you have to do the water changes. 

If you had a really old, really stable tank with a well developed biofilter that was handling the ammonia really, really well, so that your ammonia and nitrite were always at zero and you just had a slowly climbing nitrate, you'd still be in danger, eventually even nitrate can get to a toxic level if you let it get high enough. Plus I suspect (though I'm still learning at this point) that a tank like that exhausts its buffering capacity over time and becomes more and more at risk of a ph flip flop, but I couldn't explain the chemistry behind it yet. 

You can have your unplanted goldfish only tank, you can get it to a stable place where things are under control, where the water chemistry is pretty good and pretty stable, you're not overfeeding the algae and algae like organisms, and the goldfish are pretty happy, but you're going to have to do those planned regular water changes. Still, you get the kinks out of your plan it doesn't need to take more than 15 - 20 minutes a week, doesn't need to make a mess of any kind, and you don't need to think about the details much. But its kind of an either or - you either have plants or water changes.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks, Chris; something to think about -- I just wasn't sure why all this talk of "no water changes necessary!" was swirling about; probably just misunderstanding on my part.

Interesting thing is though...if you Google "no water changes" or anything like that, you'll find a handful of people that don't do 'em and claim to have good results.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

No it's not a misunderstanding. I really only do sporadic changes in my other tanks (except Oscar). Now it's possible that Chris might be right: None of my tanks have been set up for more then 6 months so it's possible that the nitrates could be slowly climbing. But if so it is very slowly. There are no changes on my test kits either. But I would think that adding the water back into it that has evaporated probably helps a little with that too because water still does need to be added back into the tank to replace what has evaporated. 

I think a big portion of it might be the tank too: If your looking at a small tank at full capacity then not doing water changes might be a big problem. But, you have a 60gal with really good filtration (I had not read your signature before) and only 3 fish-they are gold fish but there is still only 3 of them. That sounds to me like a pretty good tank to try not doing water changes in. First though, I think maybe I'd cut them back slowly if you want to cut them out. Try doing it every second week and see how it goes but keep a close eye on the water test results to make sure your nitrates are not climbing. 

This is a hobby that does need to work for the fish but it also has to work for the keeper too. What's the point of having a beautiful tank and awesome fish and decorations in it if you don't like it?!!


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## wlfspirit (Nov 16, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Yeah...right...pump it a few times and let gravity take over....sure. It does work though...don't get me wrong. But the turbulence it creates when trying to get it there...no thank you. As you have found out, it's more of a pain.


I second that motion of pump it a few times and let gravity take over...NOT!!! I tried to do that as the directions say and they must use an empty tank!!! It was like an ocean wave!!! lol It literally tears your tank up! I went back to sucking on the hose but, you have to watch the water VERY carefully to release it at the right moment!

While I was at petsmart yesterday, I found in the pump, hose section that you might can try. It looks like an accordion shaped bulb. It has a valve on it to prevent back flow of the water. You attach it to the end of you hose and then just pump the bulb quickly and it starts the water flowing w/o and sucking on your part. I've used it before and it does work. Maybe you could try that. Believe me, I feel your frustration. One thing I have found is that the clip that is supplied on the end of the hose to attach to the bucket? It is not so strong...was draining into the bucket one time and when I looked down after a minute, the dang thing had flipped out of the bucket and was draining onto my floor!!! GRRRRRRR

I also have a water cat. Everytime I do a water change, he gets into my bucket and tries to flip the water out!!! When I turn the water on in the sink to fill my bucket, he either tries to get in the bucket or into my sink! So, I solved that issue...I just run about 4 or 5 inches of water in the sink and he gets in there and plays while I get my water change done...ya gotta luv em!!!*r2

But, check out the hand bulb...that may work for you!


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## wlfspirit (Nov 16, 2010)

I was just looking through my book from Foster and Smith aquatics and found a hand squeeze siphon attachment for only $6.29! That is less than the one from Petsmart. Well, with the shipping cost...it's about the same...unless you are ordering other items and then, would save on the shipping cost. I get all my plants and most of my various supplies from them. They have such a variety on testers, additives, filter media etc. to choose from.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

But you do "sporadic" changes, not "no" changes, right Amie? And do you have any live plants? Because sporadic changes with plants works a heck of a lot better than no changes and no plants. 

My 55 has been up and running for 14 years, and I do less frequent changes than I should, used to do them even less frequently, and what I found was that my carbonate hardness would crap out and my ph would end up in the crapper, even with several cubic feet of water plants and years of biofilter culture in there (sometimes I'd have to weed to see the fish). And phosphate and nitrate would slowly get up near the ceiling in spite of the gobs of plants. And I would lose fish. What works for me is slower growing plants, semi-regular (slowly becoming more regular) water changes, and attention to my water tests, especially ph and carbonate hardness. When I do that I have a beautiful showpiece full of healthy fish and snails. It isn't what's popular right now, but it works for me. 

But what we need to lock down is what is going to work for ClinicaTerra with his goldfish and no plants. It is probably not going to conform to fashion, but if it gives him the tank he wants, what's the diff?


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

okay, that was a little too strong. My apologies, Amie. I think it is important to know why a particular strategy is working, and to figure out if it will work for the person who came to us for help. Everybody seems so glib about how somebody should keep different fish and discard his whole tank strategy and "get on board" with what they're doing, and try this thing everybody's doing even if it means he needs to be prepared in case all his fish die because of it. It just seems so callous. But I didn't need to take my frustration out on you and I'm sorry.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

With goldfish, water changes are a must, even if there was live plants in the tank. They are major waste producers in line with oscars and the big plecos. There are plants that can be kept with goldies, I have a friend that has fully planted tanks with them. She keeps the plants in pots and plants that the fish don't like. She still does water changes on them as even with that many plants they can't keep up with goldies.

Ok, I am going to be a bit harsh here;
If you want to do less water changes, get rid of the goldies and get smaller tropicals and lots of plants. If you want to keep goldies, be prepared and learn how to do water changes without the mess (it can be done) If you don't want to do either of these things it would be best not to have a tank, tanks with fish require attention and dedication. The animals are dependent on our care and if you can't do the work don't take on the job. Other wise your going to have problems all the time and fish dieing on you. 
Your getting a lot of good advice here and some bad, The decision is yours on what kind of tank you have and how well you want to keep them.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

I reallly have to agree with Susan as a bottom line.

BeaslBobs method is based off the walsted method for keeping living ecosystems. Its not easy and you do not get it right the first times. If you got goldies then you need about 10x filtration per hour to keep the water clean. If I wont drink the water my fish dont live in that water
Check this site out

Information on Setting Up Your New Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Fish Tanks, Fish Bowls, Aquariums, Aquarium Filters, Aquarium Heaters, Choosing Fish, Aquarium Information

More specific,
Cleaning Your Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Performing Your Weekly 10-15% Water Change

it is a great guide for new tank owners.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris: My 10gal has real plants but the other 4 tanks don't have any (yet!). But, like I said mine have not been running all that long so that might be the reason for the stability so far. I totally agree that we need to find something that works for ClinicaTerra and the fish. Having a good looking tank is great but the keeper also needs to feel great about it too. Not much point in doing it when every time you look at your tank you think 'I hate changing the damn water!' That's not going to work for long either. 

No worries on the tone either-we all have very strong opinions about our fish here. And your right. I see the same thing on some threads 10 different people answer a person and all 10 have very different ideas on what to do with a tank. Sometimes I pity the person trying to take the advice!!! I have the same problem when I see people saying to use additives in a tank. That's the one that drives me nuts LOL. 'my PH is too high' 'use PH Down' 'now it's too low' 'use PH up' GRRRRR. 

If you have had your tank up for 14 years with less then usual water changes then you are no doubt a better person to give advice on that then me. Out of curiosity:how long did it take before you noticed things climbing in your tank??? 

And no doubt as ClinicaTerra gets more used to changes they will be easier. I do wonder if weekly changes are necessary anyway with his tank though. Considering the size and the fact it's only got 3 fish in it and good filtration. Perhaps a good rule of thumb for him might be once every 2 weeks.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Amie said:


> I do wonder if weekly changes are necessary anyway with his tank though. Considering the size and the fact it's only got 3 fish in it and good filtration. Perhaps a good rule of thumb for him might be once every 2 weeks.


Tank is Goldies.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah, Goldfish are a completely different kettle of fish. You kind of need to take everything you know about filtration and so on and double it with goldies, but they're really worth it. They're like little dogs - they interact with you so much more than other fish. I swear they're smarter. They can live 80 years with excellent care, I hear, and they can get huge, so its worth it to work the kinks out in their care, 'cause they'll be there as long as a parrot if you do it right.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah-I've read the posts too an I don't suffer from short term memory loss. 

But, it's a 60 gal tank with 2 filters running: AQUEON QUIETFLOW 55 325GPH and a HAGEN AQUACLEAR A-620/110 500GPH and an additional
TETRA WHISPER 60 AIR PUMP attached to a bubble wall. 

Between those 2 filters thats 825GPH filtration. That is 13 times the tank size per hour. With some additional oxygen added by the air pump and with all that you still don't think that Clinica can relax a little on the water changes?!?!


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm not saying they can't relax, I'm saying it isn't the same as a planted tank with tropicals. It is going to be a situation where the tank owner is going to have to watch the water tests and see if things are going his way. The ammonia test is still coming up positive, that is not a sign that it is time to relax. zero ammonia and zero nitrite and a ph that was in the good range would be an indication of relaxation time, but if you don't have your numbers in gear, what happens if you let them slide? Ammonia and nitrite could get better, but they could also get worse, it bears watching. PH isn't going to get better with neglect, IMHO. In general the best thing for PH that I've found is water changes, provided the water changes are from a source with a better ph and carbonate hardness than your tank (which is almost always true). Once you have a decent level of carbonate hardness that can allow you to coast, because the buffering that provides will keep your ph on an even keel and your biofilter will almost always improve with time. Ammonia is massively more toxic at a bad ph than at a good one.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

TBH, if I had to tote buckets to change water, I wouldn't have a tank.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris:
Okay, now that one I did miss somewhere. Did not see the test results anywhere. You are totally right on that one: with above 0 ammonia the water changes are a complete MUST until that gets under control. As to the PH, honestly, I have never paid much attention to the PH. A lot of the posts I have seen on here have sort of said that the fish will adjust to the PH. I monitor mine to make sure it has not changed since the last time it was checked but not to monitor if it needs to be adjusted or anything. Your right: for now, weekly water changes and figure out why ammonia is up then when that is under control then he can cut back on water changes and by how much he will have to determine by keeping an eye on the tank parameters.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

And my apologies of the tone a few posts ago. I shouldn't bite. We are all only having a conversation here.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Hey, Amie, if you can be understanding about my snarks, I can sure be understanding about yours. Its the caring a lot that makes the steam come out the ears, eh? Just so we know its not personal, its about the fishies.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

LOL Sounds good to me! Thanks!!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Amie said:


> Chris:
> Okay, now that one I did miss somewhere. Did not see the test results anywhere. You are totally right on that one: with above 0 ammonia the water changes are a complete MUST until that gets under control. As to the PH, honestly, I have never paid much attention to the PH. A lot of the posts I have seen on here have sort of said that the fish will adjust to the PH. I monitor mine to make sure it has not changed since the last time it was checked but not to monitor if it needs to be adjusted or anything. Your right: for now, weekly water changes and figure out why ammonia is up then when that is under control then he can cut back on water changes and by how much he will have to determine by keeping an eye on the tank parameters.


tone fine

(edit I have no idea what I meant by the above.)

What about the situation where the ammonia is comming from the water changes?

*old dude


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

You're referring to the chloramines, is that right? So water changes with proper water treatment chemicals bind the chloramines in non-toxic compounds and those compounds can be dealt with by the biofilter as is. Those should not be a problem, so long as the tank owner uses treatment chemicals to neutralize the chlorine or chloramines or whatever is being used locally. Or are you referring to some separate ammonia load coming in with the tap water?

I suppose the best check on that would be to have the tank owner run a set of tests on the tap water as it comes out his tap (something I like to do periodically) to get a feel for what is coming in, not just ph and hardness, but ammonia too. Could do one before the treatment chemicals and after, just to see how that effects the results. The assumption I'm making is that the ammonia levels in his tank are much higher than the ammonia levels in his tap water, even with the chloramines figured in. It is an interesting question, though. I'll have to run tests on my tap water now, and see what results I get from the ammonia. 

That's the funny thing about assumptions, often they're invisible until someone points them out to you.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Chloramines are one possible source.

But the assumption that the water change water is always better than the tank water is the actual assumption I was challenging.

Water changes are not 100% safe. Especially with marine systems where you additionally have to mix and check salinity.

Small water changes are less dangerous and also change the tank water less.

It is entirely possible a water change itself crashed a tank which would have not crashed if the tank had not had a water change.


But then what do I know. I just run tanks for up to 8 years with no water changes. And the tanks don't crash.

So I guess I don't have any experience. *old dude

my .02


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

It's perspectives like this that make it a bit harder to determine whether the water changes are 100 percent necessary or not:



beaslbob said:


> The assumption that the water change water is always better than the tank water is the actual assumption I was challenging.


and...



> *Water changes are not 100% safe*. Especially with marine systems where you additionally have to mix and check salinity.


but this I already knew:



> Small water changes are less dangerous and also change the tank water less.


and this one gets me more than anything...



> It is entirely possible a water change itself crashed a tank which would have not crashed if the tank had not had a water change.


But then Bob goes on to ask "what does he know" even though he has _kept_ tanks for up to _eight years_ with no water changes, and they haven't crashed..._and_ even goes on to say that he guesses he has "no experience"...

Can anyone see where my confusion lies? *c/p*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yep, there are many methods and for what it's worth I'd be confused as hell probably.

Your tank is not planted and you don't plan to go that way, therefore everything mentioned regarding "no water changes" has little to do with your situation as they are tanks that have plants to stabilize the tank.

Aside from that, you had/have ammonia/nitrite issue that necessitated a water change in order to save your fish. Just stick to that and how better to conduct the water changes. The rest if just fodder and maybe something to think about later down the road..


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes i see where the confusion is.I myself get much conflicting info on tons of things including water changes,gravel vacuuming and even stocking and certain medications.I do not own a test kit.PH tests are all i do,and with my waterchanges i do it the easiest way possible.My tank is thirty gallons with only three betta macrostomas.They are a challenge and even though they are not as messy as goldies,i do partial changes twice a week.I do not use a siphon,as i have been super sick of water everywhere.It just dumps it way too fast for me.Instead i use airline tubing.When my bucket gets about two thirds full, i clamp the hose and dump the water.If i feel i need more water out(depending on the way the fish act)then i just unclamp the hose and let more water into the bucket.Adding water is just as easy.I sit a bucket on top of the lights and use a second airline tube to add the conditioned water back.Easy and pretty much mess free.what you need to do is find a way that will work for you.If a full bucket is too heavy(it is for me)then just fill it partially.Take your time.One thing i did when starting,i added a sharpie mark on the corner of the tank,telling me about where to stop the water line.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Yep, there are many methods and for what it's worth I'd be confused as hell probably.
> 
> Your tank is not planted and you don't plan to go that way, therefore everything mentioned regarding "no water changes" has little to do with your situation as they are tanks that have plants to stabilize the tank.
> 
> Aside from that, you had/have ammonia/nitrite issue that necessitated a water change in order to save your fish.


OK...


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

beaslbob's tanks are very heavily planted and so they pretty much run themselves. I have one in the making here now and soon to have a second one too. 

And your right; when it comes to stuff like this everyone has an opinion and everyone will try to get you to do it their way because we all feel that the way we do it is best. 

But, the bottom line remains the same: you need to find a method that works for both you and your fish. First thing to do now-just to be sure is check your tap water with your test kit. Test it untreated and treated with the additives you use before putting it in the tank. Just to make sure there is no ammonia or anything in your water. Also, make sure to let the water run for 5 or 10 minutes to clear out all the water that has been built up in the tap.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I see you making statements, Bob, but I don't see any explanations at all. Could you please explain how a water change can cause a tank crash? That one just does not make sense to me. 

Everybody knows you have plenty of experience and plenty of success, there's no need to be mysterious or confusing.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

As has been said, with no plants you are going to have to do water changes, even with a heavily planted tank goldfish are such messy fish you might never get to the the point where no water changes worked. If you don't give up you'll get the hand of water changes without the mess. You could try marimo balls if you like the way they look. They require little special care and are good at consuming ammonia and nitrates. It wouldn't take away the need for water changes but it could help a little to balance the tank. Lots of people have found their goldfish don't eat them and they can survive with low light and need no substrate so they might work into the setup you have.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Once again, this is a goldie tank. Without proper maintenance, the NO3 and NH3 levels will build. It's just that simple.

Clinica, my apologies for all this confusion. It really shouldn't be this complicated.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I think there is a goldfish thread that might be less crazy. People will not need constant explanations of what a goldfish really is and what they really need, and the people who read the goldfish thread(s) will have experience that might prove more helpful. I see as time goes on there's a real controversy between the water change people and the no water change people and that flare ups in the war of words catch beginners in the crossfire. Very unfortunate. Its probably because I spent too many years training customer service reps, but I tend to think advice should be fit to the person who asks the question, it shouldn't serve the needs or agenda of the person who is answering. With that, I think I'm just going to leave this thread alone, I think we're doing more airing our disagreements than actually trying to help, and I don't want to participate in that pattern.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

here,these are goldie people and know tons.....
Home


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Excellent point Chris! I will have to join you on that one.


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

I use a hose, two 5 gallon buckets and a shower. Its actually a pretty good work out.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> It's perspectives like this that make it a bit harder to determine whether the water changes are 100 percent necessary or not:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no experiences with water changes or tank crashes. *old dude

those 8 year tanks that had live bearers had descendants of the original fish the tank was started with.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

If you do not have a living substrate in the aquariums like BOB does then water changes are a must, he has what is called a NPT or natural planted tank which use soils and peat moss as a substrate rather then gravel that does nothing, his substrate is the filter, so the entire bottom of his tanks do the work and have more BB per square inch then any other filter can produce.

His method is one of many used in the NPT hobby.
If you have just gravel 25% weekly as a minimum is a must to change out the water.
Its really simple to understand.
gravel=PWC
soil/peat= no pwc


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> If you do not have a living substrate in the aquariums like BOB does then water changes are a must, he has what is called a NPT or natural planted tank which use soils and peat moss as a substrate rather then gravel that does nothing, his substrate is the filter, so the entire bottom of his tanks do the work and have more BB per square inch then any other filter can produce.
> 
> His method is one of many used in the NPT hobby.
> If you have just gravel 25% weekly as a minimum is a must to change out the water.
> ...


FWIW with live bearers, and angelfish those 8 year tanks had just sand.

the peat was needed for neon tetras though.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

I believe that half the people read this thread thinking about someone keeping goldies, and trying to figure out what tank works for them. The other half read it as someone who wants a low-maintenance tank with no water changes, and tried to figure out what fish/plants would support that. I think what ClinicaTerra wanted was both, which unfortunately is probably not really a possibility with goldfish. 

Sorry ClinicaTerra, but goldies are mini-cookie monsters that are cute as can be, but gobble up things like crazy and make big messes. 
I think with the decor you have, and the goldies, you're doomed to PWCs. There ARE methods to make this easier, which have been brought up a few times. You just need to figure out what would make sense in your situation. The python system sounds cool, usign 5G buckets and half filling them would help, using airline tube and clamps keeps the siphon from being a big problem. Honestly anything you try (including just what your doing now) will become pretty smooth and quick once you get practiced at it.

Now if you decide you want a planted tank with other types of fish to make a low-maintenance tank, I think that is a different thread. I'm in the middle, and have both, and love both. Its just a choice in style, and what you want it to look like. Many planted tank folks eventually care less about the fish, and more about the "garden" in the tank.

If it really is too much to keep up with, there is no shame in putting the stuff on craigslist and walking away. There is a reason so many aquariums can be found that way. It can be a little time consuming and frustrating. Its just a question of whether it makes you happy, overall.

Good luck, and I hope you're a little less discouraged.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

mfgann said:


> If it really is too much to keep up with, there is no shame in putting the stuff on craigslist and walking away. There is a reason so many aquariums can be found that way.


And so, through all the chaos, bedlam and utter thick plumes of confusion, it may indeed boil down to this, as suggested above...I believe that's the long and short of it, and that I will be taking the higher ground here and going with that advice. I am going to have to drain the aquarium and find a place for the three fancytails because I am NOT killing them or simply "flushing" them, and then look into putting the stuff on craigslist or another site...

Why did I finally come to this conclusion? I can't keep up with the required maintenance, the water changes have destroyed our new house in varying ways and, perhaps the best reason of all, the water is back to being un-crystal clear yet again and that means more testing of the parameters, more water changes and more analysis of the state of my filter media...

Since setting this tank up, I have never really been witness to _full extended periods_ of ultra-clean water conditions -- and that's just ridiculous to me with two large filters running on a 60 gallon plus the fact that the tank has been running since before the summer...


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

This hobby isn't for everyone. Sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Believe me, no one is more sorry than I am...what's so pathetic about the whole thing is that I never got a chance to experience what clean, pristinely clear water looks like nor will I ever have the opportunity to watch my fish revel in said clear water; it's utterly pathetic, but so are many things in life. Case in point: My wife's father has just days to live due to his organs shutting down in conjunction with an advanced stage of lung cancer, and that's what we're dealing with now. 

Can you imagine? A tank running since _this past September_ and never once did it exhibit crystal clear/clean water with two power HOBs running for a rated combination of 800-plus gallons per hour...


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Sorry to hear

sorry to hear about the tank also. sometimes you just have to go on. I see this with people who attempt reef tanks all the time.

Let us know when you change your mind.

Some of us will still be here.

my .02


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Really sorry to hear that. I'd hoped it wouldn't be the case, but there is no point in an aquarium if it is just going to cause such frustration. I think many people have the same frustrations, but the threads you started aired them out more than most, which is a good thing.

Good luck on finding the goldies a good home. If you change your mind, or decide to try a different type of fish/aquarium, we'll be here.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Don't give up. If it is your desire to keep these guys, you can definately make it work. There are times where frustration will be high. It is just common place. The key is to not let it get to you.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I can certainly understand why you feel how you do.Goldies are no for beginners and its sadf the advice the stores give says otherwise.If you do decide to quit for now,i hope one day you will get back into the hobby,but maybe start out a little smaller and more simple.Its still a strange occurance the water never cleared up but of course none of are there so advice over the net is kinda hard to give fully,not seeing the issue in front of you,and hard to understand as words can only say so much.Maybe check that goldie site for homes for the fish.I can assure you they will go to wonderful people,maybe someone in your area,or maybe even someone on the site can explain shipping,and provide the materials to get the fish to them,at their expense.

Also,i am very sorry to hear about your father in law.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you so much, everyone, for your thoughts and hopefully prayers -- indeed, it looks like tonight may be my father in law's last night...

As for the hobby, well, if anyone attempted to keep my head above water with it all (okay, a little pun intended there) it was James, and I thank him for that -- and everyone else. I don't know what else to do; we're at our wits' end with this tank, as we just _cannot get it to clear to crystal characteristics_ no matter what we do...the sad and pathetic thing about it all is that these three fancy tails are just gorgeous and filled with such life...especially the red cap oranda, who my wife named "Sunshine;" she really borders on being a show-class quality fancy goldie...

But as I struggle to find a new home for them -- as I said I REFUSE and WILL NOT "kill" them whatsoever -- I reflect on what I have lost attempting this hobby, and just how utterly...well...pathetic (there's just no other word I can think of) it has been that we could not get our water in good condition...that's after cycling from approximately September on, and running _two_ large HOBs, exchanging, supposedly, 800-plus gallons of water an hour...can one imagine?

Still no clean, clear water...


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

what do you use in the filters? carbon? if so change it WEEKLY, do 20-25% PWC's weekly.
How much and how often do you feed them?

This will clear up. I every now and then get cloudy water in my tank thats been running for 3 years. Dont give up, this is a very minor issue and is more so aesthetics then danger(pending your answers)


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you...I appreciate the ongoing assistance...



WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> what do you use in the filters? carbon? if so change it WEEKLY, do 20-25% PWC's weekly.
> How much and how often do you feed them?


In the filters, the Aqueon gets two carbon insert cartridges (that Aqueon sells specifically for this model) and the AquaClear is running just the stock media configuration -- which is the sponge block on bottom, the carbon bag in the middle and the biomax pellets on top. 

Do you mean change the Aqueon's carbon cartridges _every week_? Serious? They need to be swapped out every week?

The feeding I have attempted to reduce just this week -- I'm down to once a day, enough for them to consume in a few minutes; even with reducing the feeding schedule, the water isn't _crystal_ clear. It's not murky by any means, don't get me wrong, and it's not cloudy/milky like a bloom, but it's not as clear as it could be, and I know that...



> This will clear up. I every now and then get cloudy water in my tank thats been running for 3 years. Dont give up, this is a very minor issue and is more so aesthetics then danger(pending your answers)


Well, I understand a cloudy water issue popping up every now and then even if a tank has been established for three years, but I haven't been able to _achieve_ crystal clear, pristine water since the day I started the tank.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You could go to feeding every 2-3 days and even longer if you wanted.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Can i ask what you are feeding?certain foods will cloud water,even if they say it doesnt.Flakes in general will.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Being as you're giving up: turn the filters off, kill the lights, just replace water the evaporates, and stop adding food for a week or until you can find someone to take care of the fish or buy the system.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

First, let me say I'm sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Cancer is a very nasty business. I've had several friends fight it, and lost one to it recently. I hope your family is holding up well. You have my prayers.

I do NOT mean to discourage you from continuing to keep the tank, if you have any desire to. It I strongly believe James is right in that you can make it work, and sometimes it is just very frustrating. I just do not want to beat you up, or make you feel bad if you do need to walk away from it. It sounds like you guys really love the fish, and want a nice centerpiece tank. If you love the fish, and don't really want to give up, stick with it.

Sadly, starting into aquariums is the absolute most frustrating part. There are a thousand things you don't know, and at least as many opinions on each topic. We all offer our opinions to try and help, but we all do it slightly different. My suggestion to you is to stick to advice from other goldfish keepers.. All the advice has been pretty good, but some of it for different style tanks, and different approaches.

One thing I'll point out is that the filters you depend on to keep the water clean aren't really going to solve general cloudiness. They are to remove debris and larger particles. A cloudiness is generally either algae or bacteria, which is going to be growing in your tank because of an imbalance. The real trick is figuring out what the imbalance is in your particular case. There really isnt a good shotgun way to deal with it. Try each suggestion for a length of time.. maybe a few weeks, and see what works for you.

Again, I hope I didn't give you the impression you SHOULD give up.. I just wouldn't hold it against anyone if they found they didn't love it anymore. 

Take care of your family for now. Good luck.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> You could go to feeding every 2-3 days and even longer if you wanted.


Really, JR? And that wouldn't "starve" them?

Something interesting I noticed with regard to their behavior since adjusting this feeding schedule is that now, one of the more "aggressive" goldies in the group -- the all-orange fantail -- seems to be nipping at the tails of the other two as if he/she is having some kind of "fallout" to the reduction in food...this particular goldie was always the bully of the tank (as much as a goldfish can be a bully -- not really aggressively so at all, in other words) and did quickly nip at the other two's tails before, but it seems to have gotten a bit more focused now that the feeding schedule has changed. Because of this, when I initially noticed it, I have been dropping a few flakes in during the established non-feeding time of the day just to kind of "distract" the one that's doing the nipping, even though I realize this is like cheating when I am supposed to be keeping them to a schedule...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

majerah1 said:


> Can i ask what you are feeding?certain foods will cloud water,even if they say it doesnt.Flakes in general will.


Aqueon » Goldfish Flakes | Products


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks, everyone, for your kind comments...unfortunately, it seems as though I am going to have to switch gears and focus on family matters at least right this very minute because my father in law passed away early this morning; and I am sorry to the member that mentioned he recently lost a friend to cancer. As you can see, we can relate...my wife's grandmother was lost to cancer as well, and it runs up and down her family line...

As for my water and tank, well, the water has gotten less clear again, and this is with the feeding schedule altered just a bit, so I don't know what is going on...perhaps it's just the water quality where I live, perhaps the water was never going to get clearer than this. I don't think I will ever know.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

what temp is the water? cold water is cloudy or can be cloudy depending on the TDS content.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Really, JR? And that wouldn't "starve" them?
> 
> Something interesting I noticed with regard to their behavior since adjusting this feeding schedule is that now, one of the more "aggressive" goldies in the group -- the all-orange fantail -- seems to be nipping at the tails of the other two as if he/she is having some kind of "fallout" to the reduction in food...this particular goldie was always the bully of the tank (as much as a goldfish can be a bully -- not really aggressively so at all, in other words) and did quickly nip at the other two's tails before, but it seems to have gotten a bit more focused now that the feeding schedule has changed. Because of this, when I initially noticed it, I have been dropping a few flakes in during the established non-feeding time of the day just to kind of "distract" the one that's doing the nipping, even though I realize this is like cheating when I am supposed to be keeping them to a schedule...


I have friends that have walked away from their tanks for 10days at a time and didn't set up for them to be fed while they were out of town and had zero issues. Some fish you may not be able to go that long for, but 2-3 days should be easy.

If you still have ammonia/nitrite readins that is probably contributing to your cloudy water. Once they are gone your water "should" clear up.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Terribly sorry for the loss of your father-in-law. At least he is no longer in any pain and in a much better place. I lost my father to this terrible monster just over a year ago. We have been with each other for most of my life and there is a huge void there now that can never be replaced. My condolences to you and your family.

When you're ready to resume with this quest, we can help you get on the right track.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> what temp is the water? cold water is cloudy or can be cloudy depending on the TDS content.


The water actually is cold, per the requirements of goldies (not freezing cold, but room temperature which tends to be a bit cold) but I always thought warm water was the kind that got/was cloudy by nature...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I have friends that have walked away from their tanks for 10days at a time and didn't set up for them to be fed while they were out of town and had zero issues. Some fish you may not be able to go that long for, but 2-3 days should be easy.
> 
> If you still have ammonia/nitrite readins that is probably contributing to your cloudy water. Once they are gone your water "should" clear up.


Thanks for the info about the feeding...

As for my water, it's not "cloudy" per se; it just looks like it could be much clearer, if that makes any sense...like a bit "whispy"...

What do you mean it "should" clear up...you've heard of or have seen tanks that never experienced clean, clear water?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Terribly sorry for the loss of your father-in-law. At least he is no longer in any pain and in a much better place. I lost my father to this terrible monster just over a year ago. We have been with each other for most of my life and there is a huge void there now that can never be replaced. My condolences to you and your family.
> 
> When you're ready to resume with this quest, we can help you get on the right track.


Thanks so much, James...I appreciate your thoughts and words more than you can know. I have passed your message along to my wife. 

I am sorry, as well, for your dad -- I lost mine five years ago...not to cancer, but from complications that developed after heart surgery. Life hasn't been the same, as you well know.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

My condolences and prayers to you as well.I hope his passing was gentle at the very least.I lost several family to cancer as well,its a very difficult thing to deal with.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> What do you mean it "should" clear up...you've heard of or have seen tanks that never experienced clean, clear water?


I'm saying that when tanks experience ammonia spikes (like yours had), to include when the tank goes thorugh its initial cycle, the tank appears cloudy. Some people call this a bacteria bloom. Once that has passed the tank will usually clear shortly after.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

majerah1 said:


> My condolences and prayers to you as well.I hope his passing was gentle at the very least.I lost several family to cancer as well,its a very difficult thing to deal with.


Thank you, so much...

I am sorry to hear about your family, as well...

From what we understand, he was not in pain when he went...a lot of morphine and some other drug...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I'm saying that when tanks experience ammonia spikes (like yours had), to include when the tank goes thorugh its initial cycle, the tank appears cloudy. Some people call this a bacteria bloom. Once that has passed the tank will usually clear shortly after.


Okay; although I don't believe I was dealing with a bacterial bloom over the last couple of incidents, as it wasn't really murky or "milky" in appearance...just not crystal clear...

On a side note -- and I hope I don't lose my whole tank for doing this -- I added the recommended dosage of Seachem's Clarity to the tank today, which is three capfulls for 60 gallons; so far, it made the water ridiculously murky, which the directions say is totally normal, and that it should start clearing up within two or so hours...but I won't lose all my BB or the fish from doing this...

Will I? :fish9:


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Okay; although I don't believe I was dealing with a bacterial bloom over the last couple of incidents, as it wasn't really murky or "milky" in appearance...just not crystal clear...
> 
> On a side note -- and I hope I don't lose my whole tank for doing this -- I added the recommended dosage of Seachem's Clarity to the tank today, which is three capfulls for 60 gallons; so far, it made the water ridiculously murky, which the directions say is totally normal, and that it should start clearing up within two or so hours...but I won't lose all my BB or the fish from doing this...
> 
> Will I? :fish9:


I would trust Seachem's products. Seachem and API are the two brands I'd put a lot of confidence in. They generally seem to be very top-shelf.
I think the big reason most times it is a bad idea to add something like this is because if it is being caused by some underlying problem (like ammonia spikes, algae, whatever..) then as soon as the Clarifier runs out in the tank, the problem will return. 

Having said that, since yours seems to be hanging around much longer than a bacteria bloom, it probably wouldn't hurt to try it. I hope it does work for you.

Other thoughts, which are pure speculation: I'd try switching food brands, and maybe even types as majerah1 had mentioned. If the food is causing any cloudiness, perhaps this would be an easy fix. Another thought is that if this is some sort of algae bloom that is just hanging in there, killing the lights for a week as beaslbob suggested would kill it off. Since you have no real plants, the lights are just aesthetics for your viewing pleasure. 

I noticed today my 30G is looking just a little cloudy/unclear. Looks like I get to try the lights out regime too. :O
Usually I don't use aqueon foods but a sample did come with the last tank I used. I've only thrown some of it in a time or two, but maaaaaybe there is a connection? Let me know how that clarifier works


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Okay; although I don't believe I was dealing with a bacterial bloom over the last couple of incidents, as it wasn't really murky or "milky" in appearance...just not crystal clear...
> 
> On a side note -- and I hope I don't lose my whole tank for doing this -- I added the recommended dosage of Seachem's Clarity to the tank today, which is three capfulls for 60 gallons; so far, it made the water ridiculously murky, which the directions say is totally normal, and that it should start clearing up within two or so hours...but I won't lose all my BB or the fish from doing this...
> 
> Will I? :fish9:


What the water clarity products do is react with phosphates to make the particles larger so filters can remove them. so initially they do cloud up the aquarium the it clears.

IME what happened is white crud settled down over everything in the tank. Sides, decorations, gravel--everything.

but that was before I used planted tanks and did the blackouts and lowered feedings.

my .02


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> The water actually is cold, per the requirements of goldies (not freezing cold, but room temperature which tends to be a bit cold) but I always thought warm water was the kind that got/was cloudy by nature...


not at all, get two tall clear glasses and fill one with hot water(85-90 degrees) then the other with cold water all from the tap, the cold water is denser and the cloudiness is mostly oxygen. My turtle/comet tank does this alot. Only thing I use to clear it up is using polyfil thru a intank filter, within hours its crystal clear.
Not saying this is your issue but colder water tends to be more dense then hot water, but yes hot water will cloud then clear nearly instantly as temps regulate.

Id say you are fine, ive been researching and this is a very common complaint with cold water tank keepers.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks everyone...

Sorry for the delay in getting back; we were at the funeral home today preparing for the burial...

As for the Clarity, well, let me tell you all what happened: The water went ridiculously murky and orange-ish, as I said, but then it simply went back to the level of clarity it was before treating with the Clarity...perhaps a bit more murky than that. What I did notice is that almost all the Clarity seemed to be sucked into the filter pads of the Aqueon, turning the white floss gunky black and tan, and causing the water to begin flowing over the pads as if the cartridges were stuffed and overloaded with junk -- what I did was rinse the cartridge pads to return them to a nearly white state, put them back in the filter, topped off the water in the tank because it was getting low again and pre-treated with Prime...as of this morning, the water quality was pretty cruddy. So, as far as I know, Clarity did nothing; I don't think I am going to re-dose with this stuff. It looks like I do need another water change, though; the water looks a bit worse than it did. 

Further, it seems like the sponge pad in the AquaClear has turned the color of Clarity as well, that orangey-tan, probably from sucking all the stuff up too...should I give the sponge a rinse to clear it, as well?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

rinse the filter sponges in tank water, drain enough out into a bucket and toss the sponges in there, and squeeze em out. If you use tap water, any beneficial bacteria will die instantly then you will be in a mini cycle. WHICH might not be back in your case.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> WHICH might not be back in your case.


What do you mean...that beneficial bacteria may actually never come back?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Have you tested your water lately? Your tank was either already cycled and going through a mini-cycle because of an ammonia spike, or it was on the verge of completing the cycle. Rinsing your media with tap water probably just set you back once again. 

Your tap water is treated with chlorine/chlorimines. IT WILL kill the beneficial bacteria that you have been growing. It grows mainly in your filter and your gravel.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

No, JR, I haven't tested the water lately; I was going to do a change and then test it again...

My suspicions are that I am indeed in the midst of yet another mini cycle because of the haze that's returning to the water; I don't know what to do about these dang filter cartridges, so I will begin another thread to deal with that mess...

As soon as I get the water results back from the test, I will post them in a new thread so you guys and gals can analyze...


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

you might want to invest in a magnum 350 or better canister filter, cartridges never last long with gold fish. Heck for 5 goldies and a turtle I am running a magnum 350 and fluval 303 canister filters on that tank, I had a HOB and I was tossing cartridges every other day in that thing.

back=bad I apologize for the typo in that statement.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> you might want to invest in a magnum 350 or better canister filter, cartridges never last long with gold fish. Heck for 5 goldies and a turtle I am running a magnum 350 and fluval 303 canister filters on that tank, I had a HOB and I was tossing cartridges every other day in that thing.


My cartridges never really filled up like this before I put the Clarity in there; once I did that, they both turned brown and got like "overstuffed" with gunk...I understand what you're suggesting with the canister but I'd rather just hang on to the HOBs for now (okay...a little pun intended). 

Are you saying you used to actually just toss the cartridges and replace them with new ones? Is that better than rinsing them out in tank water?



> back=bad I apologize for the typo in that statement.


Oh, okay...no problem...so, you're saying that a mini cycle wouldn't be bad in my situation?


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> My cartridges never really filled up like this before I put the Clarity in there; once I did that, they both turned brown and got like "overstuffed" with gunk...I understand what you're suggesting with the canister but I'd rather just hang on to the HOBs for now (okay...a little pun intended).
> 
> Are you saying you used to actually just toss the cartridges and replace them with new ones? Is that better than rinsing them out in tank water?
> 
> ...


Most people re-use cartridges because their beneficial bacteria are built up enough that the charcoal isn't really doing much. The charcoal's purpose is to absorb chemicals from the water, like ammonia. Since your BB doesn't seem caught up with the ammonia, changing the charcoal may help. The Aquaclear would be an easy place to change charcoal too.. though arent you already using something special in there to soak up excess ammonia?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Charcoal doesn't remove ammonia.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Charcoal doesn't remove ammonia.





> Contrary to a claim repeated throughout the web, activated carbon can capture gaseous ammonia. In fact, it is utilized for that very function in many diazo copier machines.


From Wikipedia


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

mfgann said:


> From Wikipedia


*Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, even a 2 yr old. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. 

Ill prove it to you. Ill edit that page for you. 

It now says "Contrary to a claim repeated[citation needed] throughout the web, activated carbon does not absorb ammonia."

Anyhow, I dont believe carbon removes ammonia either. It is only good for removing medications, color and odor. If it could remove ammonia... then if I were cycling a new tank with a filter that has activated carbon, then it means i would never have ammonia spikes. But that aint going to happen. There is always enough BB to deal with ammonia. If there is excess ammonia a certain week, more BB will grow to compensate. *


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You got me on the copier machines....

Ammonia - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki

Notice how carbon is not mentioned as a source for ammonia removal, yet it is one of the most commonly used items in an aquarium?. It may help with ammonia removal, but it's just not effective and therefore never a recommendation to remove ammonia. Otherwise, when people cycle their tanks or experience ammonia spikes we'd all be saying load up on your carbon. Also the reason why there are numerous other "ammonia removal" products out there considered effective (arguable) like zeolite compunds of some type.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

mfgann said:


> Most people re-use cartridges because their beneficial bacteria are built up enough that the charcoal isn't really doing much. The charcoal's purpose is to absorb chemicals from the water, like ammonia. Since your BB doesn't seem caught up with the ammonia, changing the charcoal may help. The Aquaclear would be an easy place to change charcoal too.. though arent you already using something special in there to soak up excess ammonia?


When you say "charcoal," do you mean the carbon? If so, I was thinking I should just go out and buy new filter cartridges for the Aqueon so I am starting with clean pads/floss/carbon, but I didn't consider getting the carbon pack replacement for the AquaClear...

But should I be replacing the sponge block in the AquaClear as well?


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> You got me on the copier machines....
> 
> Ammonia - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki
> 
> Notice how carbon is not mentioned as a source for ammonia removal, yet it is one of the most commonly used items in an aquarium?. It may help with ammonia removal, but it's just not effective and therefore never a recommendation to remove ammonia. Otherwise, when people cycle their tanks or experience ammonia spikes we'd all be saying load up on your carbon. Also the reason why there are numerous other "ammonia removal" products out there considered effective (arguable) like zeolite compunds of some type.


I was about to concede I didn't know if the carbon removed ammonia in my last post, when I looked it up on wikipedia just to be sure. I'm certainly 
not qualified to say one way or another. I do understand the nature of wikipedia, but has been my experience that in non-controversial topics (read: not politics) it is very accurate.. at least as accurate as the advise given and received in forums. 

Anyway, my response came off a little short, and I apologize for that.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> When you say "charcoal," do you mean the carbon? If so, I was thinking I should just go out and buy new filter cartridges for the Aqueon so I am starting with clean pads/floss/carbon, but I didn't consider getting the carbon pack replacement for the AquaClear...
> 
> But should I be replacing the sponge block in the AquaClear as well?


Carbon is what I meant. If jrman is correct, then changing the carbon would actually not help at all. Perhaps ammocarb might be the best choice..?
As for the sponge, unless it is impeding water flow because of the clarifier I would keep it. It houses some of your beneficial bacteria your system needs.

Just my 2 cents, to quote beaslbob.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Carbon has to be replaced in the AC filters as it is only effective for a couple of weeks anyway. The sponge filter and biomax can be rinsed out. ONLY rinse them in tank water you pulled from a water change or a small bucket with *treated* tap water. Do not run under the faucet.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Just forget carbon. Chances are, you dont need it and its a waste of money. End of story 

Do water changes to fix the problems instead. Such as to remove meds and etc.*


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