# Saltwater noob award (stupidity) goes to this guy



## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm so mad at myself! Long story short I had a make shift 150 watt metal halide light from lowes (the type meant to be put outside) on my sump that was forcing me to top off my tank every morning due to the heat it was giving off. Although it's wasn't cause hardly any swing in temp or salinity. Yes that got replaced 2 days ago with a LED fixture. Well the previous 4-5 days before the LED came in the mail, I got real tired of going to the store getting RO/DI water and lugging buckets upstairs and having to use buffer for pH and kH. So I thought I could "get by" (thought process being it's only top offs) for the time being, that it would ok to use dechlorinated tap water. Thinking I would only do it until the new lights come in and can afford my own RO/DI without having to struggle money wise for a week. 

Well needless to say if your still reading at this point laughing I just learned the hard way, there are no shortcuts for saltwater! Now my tank is cycling again after a week short of 4 months being set up. Luckily over the past 2 days I haven't lost anything (only have 2 fish) with my ammonia being 0.3 ppm steady (no rise/no depreciation), 0 nitrites and 5ppm nitrates. Come to find out after realizing something was wrong early, my tap water has ~500ppm TDS and 5ppm nitrates.

This will be the last dumb mistake I make in regards to making shortcuts instead of getting the proper equipment right off the bat. So please laugh at my expense and post a "I told you" in the comments. 

To correct my mess so far I've went and got RO/DI water and have been siphoning the excess derterrius build up I've been getting out of the tank taking out about a half a gallon twice a day and slowly replacing with RO/DI. Being careful not to severely throw off the cycle and/or shocking my fish. If you have any suggestions to help my situation would be greatly appreciated!

I ordered a BRS 5 stage RO/DI plus, 100 micron felt filter sock (would rather do more cleaning in a contained spot then less often but all over), a mini fans and a tunze 9002 protein skimmer. After my levels stabilize I'm gonna start getting my Mg+ levels in check because as of right now my Ca+ and kH levels are not in proper proportion causing my carbonates to precipitate out. Ca+ is 480 ppm and Mg+ is 1170 ppm which isn't helping my cause right now. 

If this is any help. I use instant ocean reef crystals. With 20 lbs of live sand, 28 lbs of carribean live rock and 10lbs of cured white base rock I have a net total of 29.8 gallons of water. 

Anyways please have a laugh it my expense! Again any help you have can provide would be greatly appreciated!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It should all work out ok.The TDS is a problem ,but you're going to love your RO/DI.
You will also go through the DI resin quicker than anything else so when it is time to order jump right up to the 7lb bag.
Your CA is a little high but it won't harm anything and should take care of itself in time(it will be used up).You Mg is only a little low so bring that up slowly should be no problem.Most never realise the damage short cuts cause till the damage is done,you should rebound from this without much if any damage.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

What is your dKH if you think that Cal at 480 is precipitating? I don't think thats the case. Mag should always be adjusted first before Alk, then Cal. And if your buffering PH and ALK, thats crazy, because one will raise the other.


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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

Coralbandit If I could give you a double thank you I would! Still keeping an eye on it but you eased my worrying haha Im sitting here thinking, "what have I done". I have spent weeks researching everything to correct have flow, turnover rate, proper rock setup and keeping things stable along with the proper levels and I neglect the quality of water I put in the tank haha

But I have noticed having a higher Ca+ concentration is making my coraline grow exponentially faster and the brain coral that came on my live rock now that I put it on the sand (researched placement of that also haha) has gotten a lot more color and wants to grow and heal the two nicks it got in shipping but can't because of the ammonia. I just have a lot of precipitate. Which I know isn't a real bad thing, but is driving me nuts! I understand the chemistry behind the correlation of Mg+ and Ca+ (graduating in 3 weeks with a B.A. in chemistry). Any suggestions on dosing Magnesium? I know there are a lot of different ways, I was thinking using BRS (Mg)chloride and (Mg)sulfate. Since I don't really need any more calcium in my water column and won't be dosing it (read if I was doing a 2 part to do 5:3 (Mg)chlorideMg)sulfate). That I would only be dosing magnesium I just don't know if I should go with a NSW 7:1 or what a lot of people suggested was a 10:1 ratio of (Mg)chlorideMg)sulfate. I know that I will have to do it incrementally over a period of time monitoring the levels until I can get it stable because a lot of other factors are gonna come into play. Like how much of the precipitated various (Ca)carbonates are going to become aqueous and since magnesium will "bump" of calcium in a one side favored equilibrium that will supersaturate the water column with Ca+ cations. But will my calcium uptake kinda balance out the extra free floating calcium so concentration doesn't sky rocket since I have only 1 coral.

Sorry I went on a rant! Or am I over thinking it because Im too interested in the chemistry and not looking at the broad picture? haha

To put the mess above in a shorter version. What dosing do you recommend and in what ratio? Then monitor from then until the concentrations are optimal and stable.


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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

Reefing Madness said:


> What is your dKH if you think that Cal at 480 is precipitating? I don't think thats the case. Mag should always be adjusted first before Alk, then Cal. And if your buffering PH and ALK, thats crazy, because one will raise the other.


To be honest idk what my dKh is. I just got my salifert test kits in the mail today and haven't gotten around to testing the parameters myself partly because I was told the numbers and knew they were little less then ideal but not out of the ball park and part because I want to get my ammonia, nitritrite and nitrate in line before anything else. The numbers Im giving you I got from the closest LFS (not my "go to" store) that was using a Nutrafin master test kit that I have no clue how old it is therefore how accurate the numbers are. I know at least the ammonia is correct because the tank inhabitants are acting funny and the blue leg crabs are very lethargic especially. If I had to take an educated guess my calcium is just about right (higher if the number given is wrong). The magnesium I can almost guarantee is wrong and is way lower. The nutrafin test kit as you probably already know uses that stupid conversion equation to get "magnesium hardness" and the girl doing the testing didn't really know how to calculate because it was her first time she was asked for magnesium.

I agree with you after looking over what is physically going on in the tank (have done countless precipitation reaction experiments) then re-evaluating the number given to me. Dosing pH and Alk was a very bonehead move! This is where the thoughtless actions come into play, I ASSUMED sine I was using reef crystals that is supposed to have elevated magnesium would be enough to balance out the pH and Alk. Obviously I was wrong and realize it at this point. Now that I have all the proper tests and can monitor them perimeters myself I will be doing it correctly this time. Thinking my magnesium was close enough to buffer I was more worried about the large swing I was getting when I was topping off with neutral RO/DI water. Oh BTW I was told my Ph was 8.4 which I know is borderline out of the ball park.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I got no clue about the two part mag buffers.I use sea chem I think(tell you how much I know?)
Reefing Madness really is the man when it comes to salt water,so I would roll with whatever he says.He has never given bad info.
Although I do buff for pH and kH seperately.They do both run in sinc, that if kH is low so is my pH,but not always in the same proportion.I use seachem reef for kH and still using kent super dkh for my pH(stupid name but it is for pH).Kent stuff always worked good for me,but the "new owners" are idiots and stopped making the kH buffer?


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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> I got no clue about the two part mag buffers.I use sea chem I think(tell you how much I know?)
> Reefing Madness really is the man when it comes to salt water,so I would roll with whatever he says.He has never given bad info.
> Although I do buff for pH and kH seperately.They do both run in sinc, that if kH is low so is my pH,but not always in the same proportion.I use seachem reef for kH and still using kent super dkh for my pH(stupid name but it is for pH).Kent stuff always worked good for me,but the "new owners" are idiots and stopped making the kH buffer?


Oh I'm all open for comments! It won't hurt my feelings if I'm wrong. Im new I don't know everything, I was dumb and after sitting down and actually think about what was going on I realized the proper way to do things. I just need to know all the little details so I don't make a somewhat small mistake into a big hard to fix issue. 

But carbonate/bicarbonate is basic by nature so the higher concentration or kH will therefore bring up pH. Thats assuming its a closed system meaning nothing acidic by nature in the water column is also jumping in on the equilibrium reaction between water and the carbonates. Which is never the case because its not a perfect world. The Cat-ion (e.g. Mg+ and Ca+ in this case) attached to the carbonate in a big picture determines the solubility. the reason why Mg+ easily "bumps" off Ca+ and buffers it has to do with electronegativity and atom size and all that other fun stuff that is way to long to discuss haha. Its a equilibrium reaction meaning it can go both ways depending on the concentration of the components on either side of the equation, that determines which way the reaction goes. This doesn't go without saying if there is an extreme excess on one side of the equation there isn't enough on the other side to balance out which in return causes a one side favored equilibrium. which I suspect to be my case. Im also leaving out various other salts and compounds but left them out for that sake of my question about dosing magnesium and calcium.


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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

Reefing Madness said:


> What is your dKH if you think that Cal at 480 is precipitating? I don't think thats the case. Mag should always be adjusted first before Alk, then Cal. And if your buffering PH and ALK, thats crazy, because one will raise the other.


I can't be 100% positive on what carbonate whether it be (Mg)carbonate or (Ca)carbonate I'm 98% positive it is (Ca)carbonate because my tap water is very hard to begin with (obviously not a calculated buffer). Instead of thinking what I was actually doing being in a fuss about ammonia I was thinking easy and quick and it slipped my mind to think water is evaporating and carbonates are staying so by adding hard tap water I,m adding more and causing spikes. Which would account for a large difference between magnesium and calcium (resulting in lost buffer capacity) causing a precipitation which is most likely (Ca)carbonate.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

I still don't think so. Your way out thinking this one.
Your PH is 8.4, and not out of the ball park, its dead nuts right on, and your Cal at 480, albet high, is not unheard of either. Quit messin with the tank. Leave it, it will correct itself. Doesn't sound like anything is out of any ball park.
Def check your Mag, you know that one has to be eyed before the rest, may be low, but your other numbers are still good if you ask me.
Reef Crystals mixes out really high, but not on the Mag side, I'd be betting your ALK is setting 10-12dKH.


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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

Reefing Madness said:


> I still don't think so. Your way out thinking this one.
> Your PH is 8.4, and not out of the ball park, its dead nuts right on, and your Cal at 480, albet high, is not unheard of either. Quit messin with the tank. Leave it, it will correct itself. Doesn't sound like anything is out of any ball park.
> Def check your Mag, you know that one has to be eyed before the rest, may be low, but your other numbers are still good if you ask me.
> Reef Crystals mixes out really high, but not on the Mag side, I'd be betting your ALK is setting 10-12dKH.


Haha point taken! I will leave it alone until it corrects itself then get the levels balanced out! I will test the levels myself tonight and report back and if you don't mind guide me into the right direction on the best way to go about things, only after it has corrected itself. Appreciate everything!


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)




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## woody019 (Oct 4, 2012)

Ok so you guys were right...I way over thought everything! :two_plus_two_equals Everything fixed itself.

Went out of town for the weekend and came back to trace amounts of ammonia, no nitrites (which I kinda find odd but not gonna question it) and ~2-3ppm of nitrates. I haven't tested for anything but the 3 parameter listed above. I know if I start testing for other things before the tank fully stabilizes ill want to dose, so those are the only things I will be testing for a little. *reading

Only thing that is "wrong" using that word lightly for a lack of better terms is I have some small spots of green algae and brown algae in the display. But quite a bit in the sump that I'm totally ok with, because I don't have to look at it (don't have a CUC in the sump). The CUC in the display has everything under control in terms of algae. BUT once again Im not touching anything other then the viewing panes. I know from the first time I cycled after setting up the tank, the algae will run its coarse, uptake all of their nutrients and go away. 

Only thing I did was added a 100 micron felt filter sock to the overflow drain into the sump. Seeing I don't have a heavily stock tank and won't have to clean it as much, meaning everyday. It has done wonders, tank is crystal clear. 

AND again you were right. This time about the white precipitation, it can't be Ca(carbonates). Possibly dead coraline from messing with the intake of the tank and/or lighting or maybe even the critter living in the rocks (actually saw a couple squirts of the white stuff come out of the holes in the rock)? Well after putting the filter sock on I blasted the rocks with a turkey baster 3 times letting the tank clear in between each blast and bam on the 4th blast just about no white stuff.

Thought I would keep you updated, Also tell you a final time *YOU WERE RIGHT!* *thumbsup thanx

I will test pH, kH, Ca+ and Mg+ after everything fully stabilizes. Then post the numbers to get proper dosing procedures, if any dosing is required.


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