# Water changes alongside Protozin in a new tank?



## savethemarianne (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi guys,

I'm a new freshwater fish tank owner, I've had the fish in for 3 and a half weeks now and I was advised to do a 15% water change every 3 days to get the tank cycling. I have one female albino paradise fish (sifu) and a female variatus platy (herseus) and a male variatus platy (milky). They were sold to me as cold water/temperate fish, I keep the temp at 18-20C. 

Just after the first week, the female platy got signs of the ich, a few small flecks on the tail and she's flicking against objects. The others appear fine. I believe she has been stressed from the new environment, and also my nitrite levels are wayyyy high as I realised I've been overfeeding. My ammonia isn't bang on zero but it's only one bar off on the API master kit chart, and the nitrate is quite high but they said not to worry about that right now (I think that's also due to my overfeeding).

When I first saw the spots, I did one four-day course of Protozin, and the pet shop guy told me not to water change in this time. The spots went away towards the end of treatment and I was going to continue it anyway as I knew when the spots were off the fish you should treat for the next 3/4 days, but then the spots came back again! I finished off a second four-day course of Protozin and the ich hasn't gone. Now the pet shop have told me to put the carbon back in, stop Protozin and work on improving my water conditions. However, it's really upsetting to see my platy flicking against ornaments and so clearly sick, I'm worried if I stop treating her the problem may get worse and spread to the others?

Sorry that was long! But my questions are:

a) Should I go for a third course of Protozin? Should I time it so I start it when the spots leave the fish for maximum effect? I feel I should change tactic, but I've heard Protozin is one of the best?
b) Should I put a bit of aquarium salt in as well as I hear this helps immune systems? Or can you not use both salt and protozin together?
c) How often should I water change whilst using meds? I know by water changing I'm lessening the strength of the meds, but surely my nitrites are going to keep spiking because my tank isn't fully cycled yet and she's going to keep being stressed and struggle to fight the ich?

I'd really appreciate your help because I want my fish to be happy and healthy 

NB. I forgot to mention my tank size is 25 litres and the ph is 8


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Platys are not real low temperature fish. Their lowest temperature should be 18C. Paradise fish are (16-28C) real low temperature fish. The most common cause of ICH is sudden temperature changes. If fish are well treated (good, stable water conditions) the ICH usually runs its course without treatment or major water changes. Both Paradise and Platy fish are very tough and should survive the ICH episode.


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## savethemarianne (Mar 18, 2012)

Ahh, this does fit their behaviour. The paradise fish has always been more calm looking than the platys, and I've just checked the temp now and it's at 18 and today's not especially cold. A few weeks back it was generally colder. I think I will need a heater if the temp in the house drops again.
So you are saying if I keep the water temp stable, they should be able to fight off the ich on their own and I should leave Protozin out of it?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I'll respectfully disagree with neon -I have never seen ich go its merry way unless its hosts were killed by it. I don't know what protozin is - different brand names in different parts of the world, but you need to bring the temp up to 20ish and keep it stable. 
That is also a small tank - a very small tank - for those fish. Paradise fish get to 10-12 cm easily and are very territorial. X variatus can thrive at 18 and up, but you are on their borderline so if it gets cold and falls, the ich will return. I'd continue treatments and look seriously at warming the tank. After, I'd make a decision on which you keep, variatus or paradise fish.


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## savethemarianne (Mar 18, 2012)

navigator black said:


> I'll respectfully disagree with neon -I have never seen ich go its merry way unless its hosts were killed by it. I don't know what protozin is - different brand names in different parts of the world, but you need to bring the temp up to 20ish and keep it stable.
> That is also a small tank - a very small tank - for those fish. Paradise fish get to 10-12 cm easily and are very territorial. X variatus can thrive at 18 and up, but you are on their borderline so if it gets cold and falls, the ich will return. I'd continue treatments and look seriously at warming the tank. After, I'd make a decision on which you keep, variatus or paradise fish.


Protozin is one of the malachite green based treatments, it's a British company I think. I've just bought a mini 50W heater that's adjustable so hopefully that should help.
Re: the tank size, it's frustrating because when I bought the fish I told them my tank size and they originally suggested I could put 5 fish in there in total, but I knew it would be better to start with fewer so I only bought the 3. I think as they grow and when I've moved this summer I'll have to upgrade. The pet store I've been going to is a chain and we don't have a nearby LFS, so sometimes I'm not confident in their advice which is why I've started visiting this forum. I once saw another local pet shop sell fish to some girls who planned to keep the goldfish in small 1 litre flower vases with no filter, gravel or nothing, it made me feel disgusted! Anyway thanks for the advice!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Chain pet stores can really make a mess of things. They sell you two or three cheap fish and by advising you poorly, they can drive you out of the hobby. And yet, if they were more helpful, they could sell you many many fish over the time you would stay with this delightful pastime. I really don't get it - I guess poor training and short-sighted thinking rule...
It's natural to trust their knowledge since they are in the trade, but so often, the person advising you is just a kid looking for minimum wages.


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## savethemarianne (Mar 18, 2012)

It's funny you mentioned the paradise/platy incompatibility because I never noticed them getting harassed until a few days ago. This is probably due to the fact they've grown a bit or it could be stress related because I've made a few water changes and I've cut down their feed to sort out my nitrite problem. Before then, the paradise fish was always a bit slow and kept away from the platys :s Would a bigger tank stop his aggression or is it definitely a return either species situation? We're finding it hard to choose. Because the paradise fish is the one being mean, she seems the natural choice, but because the platy is sick I a) don't know if it'd survive being taken out and taken to the fish shop and b) I'm worried I'll return the paradise and the platys will die (sod's law). Also aside from being a bully, I generally like the paradise fish's personality. Hmm difficult times!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Both paradises and variatus are fish I've bred and sold, so I have kept lots of both. A paradise alone can get a little lethargic, but they fight among themselves if kept in a group in a small tank. They have lots of character and become quite tame.
X variatus are more active, and peaceful. I had one once that became so tame that if I cupped my hand in the water, she would swim in and wait for me to lift her out. I have no clue why she liked this - it struck me as the equivalent of me having my head held underwater, but she always came back and seemed quite pleased at the strange ritual. So that's 'personality' too, albeit an eccentric one.
Each fish is great on its own - they just don't fit together well. As you raise the temperature for your tank, you will find the paradise becoming more active and probably more aggressive. Their natural range ends where ice makes their air breathing impossible, but from 3-4c, they also thrive at 30c, and breed like mad at 25. I put 4 in a pond one summer and removed close to a hundred that Fall - they grow fast too.


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## savethemarianne (Mar 18, 2012)

I'm so glad I joined this forum, I'm learning so much! The paradise fish already eats off my finger and generally seems more calm, but I'm going to have another shot at treating this ich with malachite green (heater is in and regulating at 20C and see if they're still getting harassed once the tank conditions are better. If not I think sadly the paradise is going to have to go as at least the platys are in a pair  I'm tempted to just get a second neighbouring tank but my boyfriend would probably be pissed about it. Thanks so much for all your help so far! :fish10:


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Ich is an animal that does poorly in heat. At 30, it will be in trouble, and the meds will slaughter the beasts. At 20, it will take at least a week to clear it. Most ich meds are meant to work at higher temps. I'd go up to at least 25, if I couldn't get to 30 with the heater, and then drop it a degree or two every few days to get where you want to be. A too quick ten degree drop will kill the fish, but if you can bring it back down over ten days or so, the parasites are doomed.


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