# Discus Sudden Death



## DD4611 (Jul 5, 2012)

I have been raising discus fish for almost a year now with no problems. We live in the mountains and have water from a well. therefore I fill the tanks from the tap adjusting the temp accordingly. The PH is 6.4 no chlorine, no ammonia, water temp is 84 F. I have 3 - 55 gal tanks and in the past few weeks I have had discus fish die suddenly right after water changes. I clean the tanks daily and add water at least once per week, replacing about 20 to 30 percent. But it's not just the discus. I have had my sucker fish doing the same thing, suddenly racing around the tank and trying to jump out and then suddenly dying. These are otherwise healthy fish. I just don't understand this. I know that discus are fussy about water, but my sucker fish are doing the same thing and also several cardinal fish. Why now?? I have raised these fish since they were only 1 1/2 inches and now are almost 5 inches. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Marci99205 (Dec 13, 2011)

Do you think you could heavy metals in your well water? Try conditioning your water with Prime. I'm don't know much about well water but it can contain heavy metals and Prime will help detoxify it.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

It really sounds like the well water got tampered with via man or nature. Where do you live? recently the eastern mountain ranges have been hit with an obsurd amount of storms and that rush of new water causes wells to fluctuate drastically due to being water and picking up contaminants on its way down to the well.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

You've posted this twice - check my response to the other thread you started. Hopefully, it might provide a different perspective.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Something has to have changed about your water source but there are some other things you might consider. We had a draught last year and my water supply changed drastically in background chemicals. I lost a few Discus but mainly they began to lose color and their fins to fray; looked a lot like high nitrogen. I started filtering the water and added a heavy metal remover to my preparation trash cans where I make my change out water. 
Do you use carbon or ammonia remover, nitrogen remover, or something like Chemi-Pure? I do not use any chemical filtration on my Discus and depend totally on change outs to get nitrogen and mineral build up out. When those things get saturated they can release the things they have absorbed fairly quickly and actually have an opposite effect.
Are you fairly sure you do not have an infection of some kind? 
I have had two kill offs. One was due to the city flushing new water mains. The chemicals they used were apparently not harmful enough to humans for them to warn us, but one morning after a change out I had about 17 dead Discus and my local Discus supplier said there were several other people with similar die offs (not all Discus) that lived near me. The only thing we all had in common was we were all off the new main. The other was a well-meaning landlord that had the exterminators spray and did not warn me. They did not get near the tank, but I had the air compressor located in a remote mechanical room because of the noise and they sprayed there; 22 dead Discus that time.
Most of this came out sounding like an environmental whacko rant intended to scare your pants off. Please understand I do not mean it that way. Consider a reverse osmosis filter system; more at the end.
I have a number of crazy friends that cave dive in the Appalachians (former SEALS.) The things they have shown me pictures of and told stories about being in the water supply are a little unsettling at best. They say there are a number of modern wells drilled right into the caves but nearby are things like an old deep cave entrance that somebody used as a trash dump once! They even had a picture of the remains of an old car and what looked like some kind of industrial trash, paint cans etc. There is no telling what kind of runoff could be coming in through openings like that. 
I am not saying you have any of those problems and they report (not sure where EPA maybe?) when they find things like that, but I am saying that just because you have a well into what should be a very good aquifer there is no guarantee that just because it was clean once it still is, or won’t be again. I do have concerns; I use cardinal tetras in my Discus tank like miners use canaries. When the canaries start dropping out, the Discus will be next. What if the Discus are canaries for humans?
There is no way to be sure without some fairly extensive testing of your water. Discus are a little tougher than people think when you do change outs, keep the ph low and constant, and keep the temperature high and constant, and it sounds like you do all of that.
If you can’t find anything you can quickly put your finger on like my exterminator incident, and normal aquarium testing hasn’t identified something in the water, invest in an RO system and you should take care of the problem even if you never put a finger on it. If your nitrogen is not shy high, consider using one tank as a guinea pig and only change out one while you test. You might get one of the nitrogen remover products and use it to TEMPORARILY delay change outs while you test.


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## DD4611 (Jul 5, 2012)

I live in Oregon, really good water here coming down from the glaciers. But I am thinking I should have the water tested again. Late in the summer the water levels start to drop at the bottom of the well. This could be a seasonal thing. I am also going to keep checking for nitrates. I know our well water has a fairly good PH considering that there is manganese in it. I do use aquarium salt, at least for the past few weeks since I started having problems as I was advised to do by my son who used to own a salt water fish store. Of course his experience is limited when it comes to discus. Is there something that is different with older fish than with younger ones? I have another tank with 2 blue diamonds and 2 dark angels that have not been affected by any of this. Really strange!


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Discus are can be more delicate than other fish. Things that kill them may not even phase the fish in the next tank. Then again, I have lost all the other fish and not a Discus, so it may just be the combination of circumstances. For the last three years I have only had Discus, "canaries," and a plecostomus. From what you said I would guess that low water levels MAY be like getting to the bottom of the tank; stuff that usually settles to the bottom is getting sucked it. Likely it is completely harmless except, of course, to Discus.
One other thought, I have one variety of Discus that is very susceptible to bacterial infection. I doubt seriously I have ever cured it since they first got it. I treated them with amoxicillin both in their food and in the hospital tank, high water temperature (89.5), and a bath in formalin solution (very dangerous), all at the direction of the vet at the Houston Zoo who also is a Discus keeper. I ran the treatment for two full weeks and left them in the isolation tank for a full month. Since I put them back in the display tank, they all have frayed fins again, some have bumps, all act healthy and eat, and not one of the other Discus has any symptoms, in fact some of the others are up to 5+" with glorious fins. The ones affected are all pretty much solid white. Melons, Turqs, Ruby Reds, Pigeons; not a single symptom.
Please post how things work out. I am very interested in hearing what you find if you ever nail it down.

Almost forgot, IMHO, salt in a Discus tank has no benefit. I have tried it before. I don't think a little bit will hurt, just never had any positive results that I am willing to attest too. I had salt water fish from 1975 until 2003. The basics are the same, lower PH, much higher temperature, and both require really clean water with a lot of aeration. I don’t use a lot of bubblers, just bio balls in a trickle down and fans on my sump. Of course in Houston, Texas keeping even a Discus tank cool enough is more of a problem than keeping it warm, so the fans serve two purposes, evaporation for cooling and aeration.
Older fish tend to be like older people, more prone to get sick and take longer to heal. They give up too and that is the worst, knowing if they would just eat they would make it and no way to make them. With Discus there are always a few that seem completely healthy but the stop growing for some reason I can't explain. Those usually have a lot of spirit, but a bad tendency to die unexpectedly for no apparent reason while their shoal mates live for years.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well water always has minerals in it and there could be toxic ones in yours. Aging your water will not emove these Toxic Metals. Have your Well Water tested for Toxic Metals. If your well water has a low ph, this is not normal. Only toxic things like H2S can give well water a low ph. Toxic Metals are more dangerous in a low ph environment


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

NeonShark666 said:


> Well water always has minerals in it and there could be toxic ones in yours. Aging your water will not emove these Toxic Metals. Have your Well Water tested for Toxic Metals. If your well water has a low ph, this is not normal. Only toxic things like H2S can give well water a low ph. Toxic Metals are more dangerous in a low ph environment


I agree completely that well water always has some minerals, as does "city" water. Well water is likely to have more. I do not agree that anything that can lower the PH has to be toxic, though many things that do can be toxic. Products like "Discus Buffer" by Seachem are minerals and if something similar is in the water supply it would not be toxic. (Doctor Morin of SeaChem is a brilliant man and I am honored to have built part of his factory! They bring the minerals in in bulk and precisely mix them before packaging.) I have family in western Kentucky that has so much Sulfur in the well water I would not drink it much less put a Discus in it even though the PH is low. I still think you may have a mineral problem and it is very likely related to low well levels. Probably when you have good flow off the glacier you have pristine clean water with very low mineral content, at least very low harmful mineral content.


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## DD4611 (Jul 5, 2012)

Thank you all for your input. I just retested the water in all 3 tanks. I have a PH of 5 - 5.5, water hardness of around 200 - 220 ppm, nitrites are zero, nitrates are between 20 and 40 ppm, temp is between 83 and 86 F from tank to tank. I have 2 large sponge filters in each 55 gal tank. I am also running a box type filter in one of those tanks just to see if it helps.
I think the assumption that something in my water is affecting this might be correct except why does it only affect the older fish and not the younger ones? And why do they all of a sudden just dart around the tank in a frenzy just before they die? Is this a toxic thing maybe, but why doesn't it affect the young fish? I will definately check into RO filtration. And here I was priding myself in not having to pretreat my water from out of the tap.:animated_fish_swimm


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

DD4611 said:


> Thank you all for your input. I just retested the water in all 3 tanks. I have a PH of 5 - 5.5, water hardness of around 200 - 220 ppm, nitrites are zero, nitrates are between 20 and 40 ppm, temp is between 83 and 86 F from tank to tank. I have 2 large sponge filters in each 55 gal tank. I am also running a box type filter in one of those tanks just to see if it helps.
> I think the assumption that something in my water is affecting this might be correct except why does it only affect the older fish and not the younger ones? And why do they all of a sudden just dart around the tank in a frenzy just before they die? Is this a toxic thing maybe, but why doesn't it affect the young fish? I will definately check into RO filtration. And here I was priding myself in not having to pretreat my water from out of the tap.:animated_fish_swimm


Sudden darting around is often related to a toxin. It may be mineral, it may be something else. Paracytes will make them do that too. Raise your water to ~90 degrees for a week, be very careful, and if paracytes are involved they will die.

Been thinking about your problem. 5-5.5 PH? Personally I have never taken Discus below 6.0 and usually keep them closer to 6.5. I am not sure what the effect may be since they like it very low, but I think it might be worth pushing it up in at least one tank to see if they do better. Now that is one I really want to hear what kind of results you see.


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