# I need advice. The quicker the better.



## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

*AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

I haven been panicking since last Sat! 
Ok so I have been cycling my new (the guy I got it from said 40gal, but I believe its 50/55) tank for about two months. Weekly 15/25% water changes, no algae, approx 10 fish most of which are under 2' except for two baby koi, 4' and one of the cichlids is long and skinny.

So I added two new jv chiclids & an albino pleco, my original cich started "flashing" & rubbing a lot which I am still unclear on why he's doing it. I wondered about a parasite or disease but soon found that my ammonia is off the charts, yet I am still not registering nitrates or nitrites. I did a partial water change and OD'd on stress zyme. Next day same off the chart high ammonia. Added more water and more stress zyme. On weds I bought Ammo Lock, used it once, thurs night all my children were kind of lethargic so I did some reading & last night I got Ammo Chips & a media bag. I read instructions & went to work, now my tank water is almost black! My husband squished the bag trying to make 2 cups of that crap fit into the filter. I took it out and did a 35% water change, stress zyme and now here I am, trying to work up the courage to go downstairs and assess the situation.
I really just want to get them out of there but my q tank isn't cycled and its only 10g. 

On a sep note, how do I know if my Melanochromis auratus is male or female? I thought it was a male bc it started to lose the bright yellow after a while. 
After it started flashing it developed a puffy chin like there's a pebble or an egg sac in its mouth and he doesn t eat like he used to if he eats at all. Well now no one is eating cause I stopped feeding them thurs morn. I hate doing that esp since summer is koi growing season.

don't know if it matters but three of the 10 aren't new incl original puffy chinned cichlid. ANYBODY, WHAT DO I DO. I think I am making it worse messing w/ it too much. I'm going to check on them now, first time since the carbon turned my water black.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

First - koi cannot be kept indoors. They have no stomach - it's mouth to intestine to back in the water. There is no fish I can think of that pollutes water like a koi, unless it's a koi in warm water. They are coldwater fish, and warmth is bad for them and for you - it speeds up their metabolisms even more.
If you get the water under control, the auratus will solve the problem by savagely killing the koi. That is guaranteed to happen. Malawi cichlids, especially turbo-aggressive auratus, are not going to accept slow fish like koi on their turf.
Puffy chin has spawned, and is carrying its eggs in the safety of her mouth. It is a mouthbrooder, and if it is puffy at the mouth, a female. It would hold the eggs and not eat for a while.
The pleco will get very big...
I do believe you have a bit of a disaster on your hands there. It's important to read up on your fish and to understand what can live with what, and how each species behaves and grows. You have eventual two foot koi, a two foot pleco and some cichlids that would rather fight than eat...
And you will need to watch for parasites as well as the ammonia problem - with new fish into an already seriously overcrowding situation, the conditions are ideal for an outbreak of something.... sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

What are your readings for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? Need numbers. Do at least a 75% water change immediately. Get some prime to use as dechloriator. It will help a lot and be cheaper to use in the long run.

Koi and cichlids don't mix. Koi needs a pond and cooler water than what cichlids need. The aurutus is a pretty aggressive fish as it gets older and will kill most of whats in the tank with it.

The fungus has a lot to do with your water conditions. And that needs to be straightened out right away. On top of that the koi are messy fish which compounds to the condition of the water.


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

nitrate 0 although I thought I mightve had a 20ppm, upon retest 0, same w nitrite. Ph 7.2 well between 6.8/7.2 I hate the strips. My ammo test is the dropper test tube & it is well, why does my comparrisson card go from 4.0 to 8.0 where's 6? TesT 1 closer to fhe 4.0ppm 2nd is darker but not 8.0 dark.
do they make a more acurate idiot proof not open to interpretation electric test?
I rescued the koi & then read not to leave him alone even in a hosp tank, got him a friend. Unfortunately the pond isn't in the near future. Leveling, 100 trucks of dirt and the retaining wall are eta late 2013.


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

albino plecos arent supposed to get as big as run o the mill pet store plecos. Two months in and the only prob is the friend I got happens to be a butterfly so there is more finage exposed.

is it just called prime? What is it & where would I find it. Its supposed to be a cichlid tank until some jerk w/ no business even looking at another living thing got a beautiful pearl koi so I tried to rehome it, then just got a 55g. Much better than where I found him, and better than the 5gal buckett I had to put him in for a week. I seriously thought ab the giant master bathtube


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

Prime is a dechlorinator and can be purchased at most lfs and petsmart and petco. Yes a cichlid can kill a fish bigger than it is. No a 10 gal won't work. Best to find a pond store or someone with a pond to take the koi. Do not flush the fish as that is a cruel way for them to die. You can even advertise on craigslist or freecycle to find them homes.

The bristlenose will be fine with the cichlids in the 55, but do put some wood in there for it. They need it to aid in digestion.


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*



susankat said:


> Prime is a dechlorinator and can be purchased at most lfs and petsmart and petco. Yes a cichlid can kill a fish bigger than it is. No a 10 gal won't work. Best to find a pond store or someone with a pond to take the koi. Do not flush the fish as that is a cruel way for them to die. You can even advertise on craigslist or freecycle to find them homes.
> 
> The bristlenose will be fine with the cichlids in the 55, but do put some wood in there for it. They need it to aid in digestion.


I was kidding ab flushing them. I would never do that. And ive asked a few people and places to take the koi. The only one that said yes never showed.

a dechlorinator? Will that help? Here is what I've got on hand Even though I'm not opposed to making a trip. I'm just not sure that its nessesary 

ammo carb-used last night, took it out bc I don't think I did it correctly since my tank water is black
tetra aquasafe plus
stress zyme
aqueon water conditioner
ammo lock
aquarium salt
melafix
em erythromycin
tetra algae control ( only used once on my tank at work )
tetra ammoniaSafe prob taking this back unless someone has a reason not to
and 6 diff types of food


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*



susankat said:


> Prime is a dechlorinator and can be purchased at most lfs and petsmart and petco. Yes a cichlid can kill a fish bigger than it is. No a 10 gal won't work. Best to find a pond store or someone with a pond to take the koi. Do not flush the fish as that is a cruel way for them to die. You can even advertise on craigslist or freecycle to find them homes.
> 
> The bristlenose will be fine with the cichlids in the 55, but do put some wood in there for it. They need it to aid in digestion.


susan, I'm scared & completely lost. What do I do right now. I'm on stand by but time is valuable. They've been in that ammon8a for 7 days, granted its xupposed to be detoxified by ammo lock even though it registers on the test. I also thought if the ph is low the ammonia is less harmful but ph didn't lower til this am and thd low ph isn't good for them either. I'm preparing for water change you said 75% that's so high is it ok? Uve been a member since 08 I trust you. Is any of thst crap I have beneficial?


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

first le me say this forum has been a great help.

I know all about the fishues (issues w/ fish) so ignore that I have bigger more immediate problems.

original detailed post
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/ah-help-ammonia-cichlid-37001.html#post184076

high ammonia, no nitrates/nitrites, two+ month old 55g w 10 fish, some new some old (3)
started last sat, done 3 partial h20 changes, about to do another, tried ammo lock so maybe amm is nontoxic now. Don't know. Tried ammocarb last night. Know it all husband didn't do it right so now I have black carbon water. I took the ammocarb out already.

ok go. Water comp in orig post


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*

For the Koi, I had a roommate in college that used to go to farm supply stores and pick up cheap horse troughs. She then filled them with water, threw a large filter on the back, and some pond plants and made an indoor pond for her Koi.

That might be your best bet for a temp home for the Koi. They did great for her in the horse troughs.

As for the other fish, you have to change a lot of water and get your levels down. Do a big 75% change, get the koi into a horse trough, then follow with every day changes of at least 25% until you get the tank to cycle.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Your tank is not cycled.I would do daily if needed,water changes,50% to keep things in order until you are showing some nitrates and no ammonia and no nitrites.

I myself do not use any of the ammonia products like that.To be completely honest,the best thing you can do is after you have gone through the cycle,is to do weekly water changes of at least 30%.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

2 threads merged as they are on the same topic

Makes it easier to keep track that way.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

yeah, don't mess with ammonia products, just keep changing water until your ammonia is down below .25, then keep changing the water daily if you have to, to keep it beneath .25 until the tank cycles. Once it is cycled, weekly 25-30% changes will keep your water healthy.

And get the koi out into something else.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks Susan,I was just reading through the first and was thinking of merging them too lol.Always beat me to these thing


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: AH Help! Ammonia & a cichlid*



FirstFortyGalSandy said:


> susan, I'm scared & completely lost. What do I do right now. I'm on stand by but time is valuable. They've been in that ammon8a for 7 days, granted its xupposed to be detoxified by ammo lock even though it registers on the test. I also thought if the ph is low the ammonia is less harmful but ph didn't lower til this am and thd low ph isn't good for them either. I'm preparing for water change you said 75% that's so high is it ok? Uve been a member since 08 I trust you. Is any of thst crap I have beneficial?



The ammolock should render it harmless temporarly, but water changes will help more. I do 75 to 90% changes on my tanks weekly with no harm, You need to do it daily till the ammonia levels drop below 1 then test daily and when it goes about 1 do another large change. I imagine till the koi is gone your going to be doing daily water changes.

What you have on hand there is some declor in there, you can use that, but do water changes to bring levels down. It's going to take some time to get the tank cycled completely but find a pond or pond store to take the koi's and it will be a lot easier for you.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

majerah1 said:


> Thanks Susan,I was just reading through the first and was thinking of merging them too lol.Always beat me to these thing


Just call me Quick Draw!


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

Hm a horse trough. Hadn't thought of that. I consider myself creative but apparently I am limited to paint, paper & glue creative. So two koi, could get up to 2ft but I'll believe it when I see it, I'll start w/ 12'ea I'm looking at 24' total x the inch to gallon then doubled bc I think it's a minimum rule and not ideal. I will need something that can hold 50gal. But dang that's what I have now. I could sacrifice the ten gal and put the cichlids and Pleco and maybe one other in that but I would have no separation tank then. I honestly don't recall the cycle taking this long or being so aggravating when I set up my 5g at work a year ago. So I am not sure the koi size is the issue at this time theyre maybe 4' what if I got a filter made for a larger aquarium so it could keep up w the waste?? Would that work and buy me some time to find them a new home or figure something else out .


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## FirstFortyGalSandy (May 14, 2012)

I did a large 75% water change & cleaned some of the decor. They look stressed out, maybe even lethargic. The water is SO cloudy and has a brownish tint to it. :-( it recently cleared up like two weeks ago but even before it didn't look this bad. I'll try to get a picture that shows it


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

To give you an idea on how big koi can get, this one was released in the wild and caught by a fisherman.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

I think in the end my friend had three aluminum livestock troughs. The largest was 150 gal, and made a lovely little indoor pond just beneath a window. The other two were smaller. They may have been 75 gal troughs.

If anyone would like to try to do a pond without actually digging a pond, we had a lot of fun growing plants and raising koi in those troughs. They were easy to clean with no substrate on the bottom. Pretty much just water changes. It was really cool.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If 75% water changes are stressing the fish, I would try smaller multiple changes and do them daily until the ammonia is gotten under control. I don't believe in any ammo products and wouldn't use them. A water change will take care of what you need. I would do your water changes and the only thing that would be added is Prime. If ammonia is still high, do another water change and keep going with that routine. None of these products will make your issue go away. Also, get rid of your strips and test for nitrites using a liquid test. Strips are inaccurate and especially not good enough while a tank is cycling.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

your Melanochromis auratus will kill every thing bar the pleco...i know because it happened to me! and dont think of it will take forever for it to get big enough, mine started it reign of terror when it got to a couple inches and started turning dark. the female will change darker to take on a dominant male role if there isnt one in the tank. also the eggs in her mouth wont be fertile so dont worry about them, she'll either eat them or spit them out. id get rid of her or replace all your fish (apart from the pleco) with one more female and one male.
youve had good advice, id say listen to it! get rid of the koi, do away with all the ammo stuff and just do regular water changes and add de-chlorinater EVERY time. bad move putting so many fish in a tank thats not cycled.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

also, id bag up the koi and take em to a fish shop! easiest way to get rid of them.


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