# Cycling Issues



## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

Hi this is my first aquarium that I have started and have run in to a number of issues. The most recent one has been frustrating and was hoping to get some input. First of the tank I have is a 30 gallon with a aquaclear 70 filter. I have been doing a fishless cycle and now I am 29 days in. 

Day one 
Ammonia dosed to: 4ppm
Nitrites - 0 
Nitrates - 0

Day 2 - 9
Ammonia 4ppm
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0

During this time I felt that I dosed way over 4ppm the first day since it looked really dark green. I read a 50% water change maybe needed which I did.

Day 10
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0

Day 11
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrites - .5ppm
Nitrates - 0

Day 12
Ammonia 1.5ppm
Nitrites - 2ppm
Nitrates - 0

Day 13 - 14
Ammonia - .5ppm
Nitrites - 5ppm
Nitrates - 0

Day 15
50% Water change (nitrites were sky high thought I could bring it down to a readable level)
Ammonia dosed to 4ppm
Nitrites - 5ppm
Nitrates - 5ppm

Day 16 - 18
Ammonia now dropping 4ppm every 12 hrs
Dosing ammonia every 12 hrs to 3ppm 
Nitrites - 5ppm
Nitrates - 0

Day 19
Nitrites still sky high decided on a 80% water change
Dosed Ammonia to 4ppm
Nitrites - 5ppm

Day 20 - 23
Ammonia not going down as it was before
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrite - 5ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm

Day 23 - 29
Since ammonia not going down did 25% water change and continued to do so every second day
Ammonia wont go down unless water change is done.
After water change if ammonia was below 1ppm id end up dosing ammonia back up to 4ppm.
Nitrites still after all those water changes is above 5ppm.
Nitrates however has been picking back up to 20ppm now.

Not sure what to do. Thinking of not dosing anymore ammonia since nitrites have not gone down in the longest time and ammonia not going down. 

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Stop changing water!
Dose ammonia every fourth day in the amount that got you to 4ppm.
ammonia and nitrites will go to zero and your nitrAtes should be pretty high within a week or so.With nitrAtes showing (along with everything else) all bacteria are present but need to grow to proper proportions.Just let it be for a bit.
With NO FISH in tank there is NO SENSE in changing water?The progression of cycling is ;high ammonia,followed by a nitrIte spike,then nitrates .If ammonia doesn't go away then the bacteria to convert it to nitrItes isn't strong enough(ammonia makes them grow).When nitrItes won't go to 0 then the bacteria to convert to nitrates still needs to grow(they need nitrItes to grow).
This is our fishless cycle;http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html
Pay attention to what jrman says.First post.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> Stop changing water!
> Dose ammonia every fourth day in the amount that got you to 4ppm.
> ammonia and nitrites will go to zero and your nitrAtes should be pretty high within a week or so.With nitrAtes showing (along with everything else) all bacteria are present but need to grow to proper proportions.Just let it be for a bit.
> With NO FISH in tank there is NO SENSE in changing water?The progression of cycling is ;high ammonia,followed by a nitrIte spike,then nitrates .If ammonia doesn't go away then the bacteria to convert it to nitrItes isn't strong enough(ammonia makes them grow).When nitrItes won't go to 0 then the bacteria to convert to nitrates still needs to grow(they need nitrItes to grow).
> ...


Okay thanks for the feedback. I won't do anything for the next couple days and then post my results after. Hopefully I am close!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I made one mistake!Once you see nitrItes you should dose 1/2 the amount of ammonia you used to get 4 ppm every four days.
I do think you are very close with the presence of all bacteria,they just need to be strengthend so they process quicker.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

At this point with everything there I think you may just let it go and finish out, without adding ammonia. The present ammonia should go down, nitrite rse and go away, nitrates rise. Once they are 0, 0, X value...you are good to go.

Usually when you are at the point of dosing every 4 days, ammonia is going away in one or two days.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

Alright great to hear. So tempted to toss in fish. But I will continue on waiting while not doing anything.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So where are you at today?


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

I have not checked today yet. I will do so when I get of work today and update you. However I have left it alone since last message and nothing has changed. Yesterday night Ammonia was at 2ppm and Nitrites at 5ppm.


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## rtmaston (Jul 14, 2012)

very good advice above.im sure you will get it right.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

So I just checked my results. Ammonia looks a little better I think but hard to tell probably at 1.5ppm. Nitrite still bright purple over 5ppm. Keep on waiting? Don't do anything?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Just my opinion,but I would dose 1/2 of the ammonia you used to get to 4ppm.It seems like 4 days since last post or dose and nitrites are still very high.
I always value jr's opinion so wait till he chimes in before you do anything.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

So I checked today and my Ammonia is at 2ppm my Nitrite is still sky high over 5ppm and my Nitrates seemed to have gone to like 3ppm. I feel like I have gone no where this week. Not sure what to do, and starting to get really impatient. I want :fish10: .


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

What is your pH? Is your water hard or soft? Are you certain that you dechlorinated at your last water change? I'm concerned that you are abruptly no longer turning over ammonia.

The fact that the nitrites are sky high is not in itself a concern. 1ppm - > 2.7ppm nitrites -> 3.67ppm nitrates. So it takes a mere 2ppm dose of ammonia to create nitrites that are "off the charts" of the API test. Your ammonia dosing schedule has been extremely aggressive and so your nitrites are REALLY far off the charts despite your water changes.

I am in agreement with Jrman that you likely need no more ammonia at all, or at most every 4 days. Your bacteria will not starve. Lab studies have shown us that the nitrifying bacteria can live for MONTHS in starvation and immediately pick back up their nitrifying activity when provided with ammonia.

If you are unsure of your results or they are too dark and you really want a reading, you can also try a reduction to get a reading. For example, a mix of 1/2 tap water and 1/2 tank water (2.5mL each) in a vial, or even 1mL tank water to 4mL tap water in your vial. Then run the test. You might want to try this with your nitrite test. If you do the 1:4 ratio then multiply your result by 5 to get your nitrites. This is sometimes the only way to get a nitrite reading when they go off the scale so easily.

Stop the ammonia dosing and therefore stop the water changes.

What is the tank temp?


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

I checked my ph level and its a little over 7.6.Tried the 4 part tank water and 1 part regular water and its still sky high at 5ppm. Multiply by 5 I guess I am still over 25ppm. My tank temperature is a little over 81. When I did do my water changes I made sure I stopped the filter put in the water and dechlorinated using prime then turned on the filter after. So I don't see why that would be an issue. But the fact that my ammonia is not going down does concern me.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

What if I converted to a fishin cycle now. Would that be a bad idea? I dont like the fact that nothing is happening.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

To safely go fish in you need to get ammonia and nitrite to less than 1 ppm and not let it get much above that.
Have you considered adding TSS?


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

No I have not but would that start lowering my ammonia and nitrites? The fact that nothing has really happened in a week worries me. I dont think anything is really happening. Not seeing a bacteria bloom or anything.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Don't look for bacterial bloom"cloudy water" to indicate anything.I have NEVER had one while cycling tanks and whether many want to agree or like it they are usaully a sign of some inbalance that is not good.If you feel your at your end of this process(can't take it anymore)change water to get you 1 ppm of both nitrite and ammonia(got to keep changing to get highest one down) and then go for the TSS.I'm not a "die hard" advocate of the bacterial supplements but have seen them work for others and actually think in combo with fishless cycle is the best way to go about it.
I would do this before putting fish in an uncycled tank.Unless you are hip to testing and changing water every day if necessary.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

Problem is I have tried a water change previously (80%) and the only thing that dropped was the ammonia. I have never seen nitrites drop doing a water change yet. So not sure how much water I should be taking out. 

Is that my two options? waiting it out or water change with tss.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

High nitrites are actually more dangerous to fish than high ammonia,so I can't recommend installing any fish without getting levels down to safe.try changing 75% ,but only replace 40% then pull out 50% of what is in tank again and then fill tank and see if that lowers nitrites at all.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

okay I will try that out thanks!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Really high nitrites may cause you to have to do multiple large water changes. 2-3 75% changes kind of thing and that is just to get it readable at 5ppm or below. Once your nitrites start going down the ammonia will follow. The bacteria that takes care of the ammonia is still not at a high enough population to process it.

When doing a fishless cycle and you have seen the ammonia rise/fall and the nitrites have been at decent level for a 4-5 day period, one could do a really big water change/s to get the levels down to readable levels, <5ppm, and the tank will complete the cycle within 2-3 days. The tank is a tad unstable and the bacteria may not handle much of a bio load initially but it would be cycled. I don't usually tell people that because it will remove the benefit of being to go near full stock right at the beginning and will require sensible stocking speed as if it were cycled with fish. I would wait until I saw a steady increase in nitrates, or going from 0 to 5ppm and slowly going up.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> High nitrites are actually more dangerous to fish than high ammonia,so I can't recommend installing any fish without getting levels down to safe.try changing 75% ,but only replace 40% then pull out 50% of what is in tank again and then fill tank and see if that lowers nitrites at all.


I have tried what you have said. My ammonia looks like its at either 0ppm or 0.5ppm and my nitrite looks like it finally went down to in btw 1 and 2ppm . Should I dose ammonia, or now just wait and see what happens?

Thanks for all your feedbacks!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Since it appears you did a water change and if you are losing patience, I would dose with ammonia to get it to 2ppm and let it ride from there. How long are you waiting to test after your water change? You should wait 10-15min after your filters have run a while and circulated the water really good.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

I checked 5 mins after. I guess I should test again in a bit. But wouldn't dosing more ammonia cause more nitrites which already was high before to begin with?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

He just means dose the 2ppm and that's it, ever. Your cycle will finish with that.

Or you can switch to fish-in, but you'll need another water change before doing that.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

jeevprem said:


> I checked 5 mins after. I guess I should test again in a bit. But wouldn't dosing more ammonia cause more nitrites which already was high before to begin with?


Sure, but it will not affect it much and you do want to make sure the ammonia can go away.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

Okay, I have dosed back up to 2ppm. I will wait till tomorrow morning to check. Hopefully tomorrow ammonia will go lower if not I will add a couple hardy fishes tomorrow after a 50% water change.


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## jeevprem (Mar 29, 2014)

I checked my readings today. Since I dosed my ammonia yesterday at 2ppm. Today ammonia is at 2ppm and my nitrites look like its at 1.5ppm-2ppm. I am just glad it is finally at a readable level. Before when I put in the nitrite solution into the test tube the bottom turns bright purple now it is baby blue. That I consider a good sign. However should I continue on waiting or do another water change?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would wait. Let the cycle finish out.


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