# bettas spawning! what next? alexcb needs help



## alexcb

oh my god!! i think my bettas are breeding. the male wrap his body around the females body and some eggs are dropping and they pick it up and put it in the bubble nest. what should i do next? i want the fry to survive. pease help!!!!ASAP...


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## fishfinder

*Re: alexcb needs help*

If the pair is alone in a tank, when the female has stopped dropping the eggs, remove her immediately to another tank. Are there other fish in the tank with your male and female? If so, you need to remove the male and break up the bubble nest.


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## JIM

*Re: alexcb needs help*

*Congratulations Alexcb, and welcome to one of the parts of fishkeeping* *that makes it so much fun . We have on staff here the best Betta experts in the Nation. When Rose sees this post she will do a back flip, as Betta keeping is her specialty and she will im sure walk you through the entire process. 


Sounds like to me though youre gonna be a proud Granpa *n1
*


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## Chickadee

*Re: alexcb needs help*

Yes I hope you have removed your female so she and the male do not fight and injure each other and yes as sad as it might be if there are other fish in that tank you will need to do as was asked and break the bubblenest and destroy the eggs or the other fish will be in dire danger from the bettas. This is not fair I realize but necessary and perhaps for the best as you were not planning for this spawning and it would be much better if the whole of your tank could survive. If there are no other fish in the tank then and the female has been removed then here is what you do to start with.

FOR TODAY there is little to do but watch after the female is removed and the male is guarding the eggs. You can offer food but I am doubting he will eat. His full attention will be on those eggs. She will want to eat and rest so try to feed her and then let her rest. I am hoping she will not be in a community setting. Otherwise just observe and enjoy.

The male needs to stay with the eggs as it is his job to defend and protect the fry. You will need to watch closely though as when they begin to be able to survive outside the eggs in a few days he may go after them.

You will need to feed and care for the female like she was sick as she is exhausted I am sure so I am hoping she will not be put into a community tank even if she is in a clean plastic container of some sort with room to swim in.

When the fry are big enough to swim free of the eggs you will need to move the male the same way to a place of his own for the time being, NOT with the female. They cannot be together again until it is time to spawn again and that will not be for several months unless you want to work yourself to death.

No matter what happens though the main thing I need to tell you is that the male and female cannot be left together no matter what the situation is, whether the eggs survived or not, whether there are other fish or not, or whether the fry survived or not, those two fish need to be in seperate tanks.

Congratulations and I do hope for the best for you. You are going to have a full time job and much responsibility on your hands for the coming months and I envy you and I also in some ways would not trade places with you. Start collecting clean and I really mean very clean quart jars and running them through the dishwasher with no soap but at high temperature wash. This will sterilize them for the male fry when it becomes apparent which are males. If you do not have a dishwasher put them in a large kettle on the stove and boil them in clean water for 30 to 40 minutes and allow the water to cool to room temperature before removing them from the water and then air dry them ... no towel. Then just pack them away in a large clean box like you get from the grocery store until they are needed and dont crowd them so they get chipped. Don't wrap them in newspaper either.

You are going to need a grow out tank for the female fry unless you plan on using the tank you are now having fry in and the filter for the tank the bubble nest is in will need to be blocked somehow in the intake or it will suck the fry into it when they get freeswimming.

Try to get some filter floss and cover the intake by wrapping it with floss and tying it with thread or a rubber band or fishing cord or anything that will hold it. It needs to be completely covered but not blocked so much that the flow is totally cut off. 

Ideally there needs to be sponge filters being seeded in the tank for your grow out tank so you need to get some sponge filters and have then gently bubbling in the background of the tank so they are seeding from your established filter. Then when you start your new tank you will have a cycled filter for it. Sponge filters work fantastically for fry as they are very gentle and there is no way the fry can be sucked into them or damaged by them. Then the original filter can be used for the male or female whichever you choose.

I think this is enough for you to digest for the moment and I will come back later to answer any immediate questions you may have but for now you need to be working on getting your little family settled.

Congratulations once again and do not worry too much. I will be here and we will try to get through this together. Be aware that sometimes first time betta parents do not know what to do and the first time the process does not work but it is not anyone's fault, just the way of nature.

Rose


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## alexcb

*Re: alexcb needs help*

thanks for the fast reply guys. they were in a 2.5g tank and i already removed the female. but i noticed that the bubbles are decreasing. i dont know why the male not making bubbles anymore. i saw a lot of eggs falling from the female and the male caught them and put in the nest. should i feed the male to avoid cannibalism? im very sad to see the thick and broad bubblenest decreasing. i already told the kids in our neighbor that ill give them all bettas if the spawning succed. ill be so sorry if i disappoint them. but im keeping my finger crossed. wish to have frys even just enough for the kids.
by the way, i didnt feed them since yesterday after introducing them coz i heard they must not be disturb not even feed them.


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## Chickadee

*Re: alexcb needs help*

Check the tank one more time and see if there are signs of eggs (any at all) in the bubblenest. If there are none then do as is follows. If there are some and you think you want to go on then leave the male for one more day and let him try to defend the bubble nest and if it disappears then you do as follows. If the male is working at the bubble nest there are viable eggs there if he is gone from it there are none. Remember that there are always going to be fry falling from the nest and him putting them back for the first few days so this is normal as long as they are alive.

Sometimes the first attempt by the parents is just not successful. there can be some eggs but they do not know what to do with them the first time. It is not going to be a cannibalism situation. Perhaps there were not any viable eggs or any that got fertilized properly or any that were properly cared for by the parents. 

You have to remember that this is an exhausting process for the parents and they were neither conditioned ahead of time. This is usually a process that takes a long time before the pair are generally even introduced to each other building them both up with special food to build up their strength to help them to make it through the ordeal of spawning. I think that maybe they just were not physically ready to make it through this and none of the eggs survived.

This is the reason that you do not keep a mating pair together so you can have more control of them and make sure they are prepared when they do try this. It is not your fault because you did not know this but the next time you and they will all be wiser. For one thing there are a lot of things you will need to get if you are serious about this and some reading you need to do so you will be able to set up the situation to better meet your needs.

You need a minimum of a 10 gallon for a breeding tank and there is a set up that is needed for it ahead of time and you will need to be getting the sponge filters that I mentioned earlier and have them bubbling in the established tank so they will be ready for your breeding tank. 

For today though you need to care for two devastated parents who are tired and discouraged. You need to feed them and you need to dispose of the remnants of the bubble nest so as not to keep your male riled up. Then you need to turn off any lighting and allow those fish to rest and get their bodies rejuvenated and see if they will recoup their strength and it may take several days for this to happen so don't be surprised to see them not themselves for a while. Do not overfeed but several small meals a day like small meals 3 or 4 times a day would be in order. Bloodworms would be the best not pellets.

You need to watch your water parameters of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the tanks where they are very closely the next few days and when they need a small water change they should have one. If they show any sign of illness they need to be cared for as this is when they will be the most vulnerable. 

I am so sorry that this has happened but do not be too discouraged as once it has happened it will happen again but the next time it can be done step by step and the fish prepared ahead of time and they will have better luck. I would not count my bettas before they are hatched though as nature does not generally work this way.

You do have my sympathies.


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## Chickadee

*Re: alexcb needs help*

If the male is putting the fry back into the nest then you need to feed the female and see that she has some darker conditions to rest. (daylight is fine just no artificial light) and do not bother the male. I am sorry to say that they should both have been getting special and extra foods for the last 2 weeks prior to trying this so they were strengthened and many males die from exhaustion as during the time they tend the nest they will generally not take the time to eat or sleep or anything else and should not be disturbed to try to make them do anything else. No do not try to feed or tend your male unless the nest is dead. He will be busy and it would make him vicious to be interupted. If he stops tending the nest then it is time to remove him from the tank and if there are fry there then you will need to have live BABY BRINE SHRIMP for them to start eating as it is all they will eat.

You can get the hatcheries online and at most pet stores and the instructions are with them. There is a product put out by Atison's (Ocean Nutrition) that is supposed to be a Betta starter food but I have not ever used it and do not know how well they accept it. Perhaps someone else who has bred bettas has and can chime in here.

You have a lot to accomplish in a relatively short period of time and my hopes are with you.

Rose


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## fishfinder

*Re: alexcb needs help*

When I did breed bettas (just once), they were an inexperienced couple and young. The male did let the bubblenest reduce a bit in size to begin with. If you take a magnifying glass and look from the bottom of the tank up into the nest you will see if there are any eggs in there. After all the work, I had 23 surviving fry with a waiting list of people who wanted them. So, hopefully you will have some eggs in your nest. If you don't, you can try again after resting and conditioning the pair. They'll do a better job next time.


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## Chickadee

*Re: alexcb needs help*

Yes I think there are probably a few in there too.


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## alexcb

*Re: alexcb needs help*

he still guards the nest and i think there are some eggs in there. is hard boiled egg yolk ok for the free swimming fry? and i conditioned them foe about 2 weeks by giving them mosquito wrigglers and earthworms cut small and pellets with vit E and fish oil for omega3. only experementing...
i have a 10g and 5g spare in case some fry survive and im now nursing the female. giving her food all the time but in small quantity and wc a little everyday with aged water that i prepare in a container prior to the spawning. i love these couple more now. with or without fry. i felt we have undergo a very dangerous situation and glad we came out alive hehehe.
thanks again guys


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## fishfinder

*Re: alexcb needs help*

I only used liquifry, which I understand was basically boiled egg yolk, and then newly hatched brine shrimp. They will live at first off their egg sack, but you should be starting to feed liquifry or similar right away to build up the infusoria which they will eat at first. I tried boiled egg yolk on dwarf gourami's, it fouled the water too easily. But that's just me. I know Chickadee will have detailed instructions for you when the fry hatch about feeding.

One thing to remember, when the fry hatch, you need to lower the water level to about 4 inches. The fry are very tiny and labarynth breathers, so they need to make it to the top for air. Make certain a film doesn't cover the top or they won't be able to break through it to breath.

Congrats and please keep us informed.

P.S. Have two brine shrimp hatcheries going at once, started 2 or 3 days apart. So when you run out of the first, the second will be just hatching and you can re-load the first one. That way you will never run out of newly hatched artemia for the babies.


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## alexcb

*Re: alexcb needs help*

i noticed that as the bubbles decrease the males tummy is getting bigger. he looks pregnant already. i think he is eating the eggs slowly thats why i decided to remove him. is it possidle to have some live fry? they spawn last friday, will the eggs hatch tomorrow or on monday? im planning to feed them boiled eggyolk coz its hard to find bbs in our place even fbw. i will feed them wrigglers when theyre big enough. how may weeks before i can do that?

im really thankful i found this site!!!

geat site with great people!!!!

thanks a lot!!!


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## Chickadee

*Re: alexcb needs help*

The problem with having no parent to tend the nest at all is that if the fry drop out of the nest there will be no parent to put them back in and they will die as they do not have swimming capabilities. I do not know if the male was eating them instead of helping them but it would seem that this is a possibility. It is so hard to make judgement calls when you are not there but I think you are just going to have to take chances with the call you made now that he is out of there I do not see a turning back.

You would start with the feeding when they become free swimming but until then they are being fed from their egg sac and getting all they need from it. If they are unable to maintain their place in the nest they are not going to survive. But once they can be wigglers outside of the nest and maintain their position they need to be fed. I do know that fishfinder is right though and you do need to get that water level down somehow but very carefully since it will disturb the wigglers. You cannot do much now as it will tear your nest apart but you must do it as soon as you note that they are starting to go free swimming as they will not survive for long with that much water in the tank. 

This is why it really pays to do your homework ahead of time and while I am not scolding you I hope that everyone else who is thinking of doing this will please take note that some of these things need to be done before you introduce your fish not after. 

If you ever do this again the breeding tank needs to be your 10 gallon with the recommended 4 inches of water in it from the beginning and then there will be no wondering how we will get the right environment for the fry. OK? The smaller tanks can then be used for the parents when they need to be moved out of the breeding tank. 

The best recommendation I would give you would be to set up the 10 gallon and put the 4 inches of water in it as you would have to set up a breeding tank. When the fry become free swimming you delicately transfer them by gently dipping them out in a clean jar and gently moving them into the 10 gallon where they will be in the environment they should be in anyway. You are going to have to be very gentle but one way or another the fry are going to be buffetted by water rushing about them whether it be by removing water from the small tank or by being moved to the larger tank and I am thinking it would be easier to be gentle moving them one time than to take the chance in taking out the water from the other tank and really slosh it around them. But in the end I will leave it up to you as to whether you think it would be easier for you to do it the other way and simply try to remove enough water from the 2.5 gallon tank to get the water level down and leave the fry where they are. Like I said it is difficult to play quarterback when you are not there on the 50 yard line.

The big thing is there are going to have to be water changes starting with their free swimming status and I mean daily water changes. These are going to be ticklish situations as they are still very fragile fish and you will not be able to just go at it like you are filling a tank with full grown fish in it. This is another reason why I am thinking the move to a new tank would be good. Most breeding tanks that I have seen set up do not have substrate for the reason that it is cleaner and it is easier to maintain. You just do water changes ... period. The fry do not really have much in the way of waste so there is not any syphoning or anything like that. But their environment needs to be as pristine and clear of ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates as possible to allow for good formation of body type and fins. Even small amounts of these substances will deform bodies and fins to the point of making the fish unhealthy or not even able to be allowed to live. Since they are going to have a sponge filter some of this will be handled but they are still going to need daily water changes of about 2 gallons per day in the 10 gallon set up that we spoke of. The way that I would accomplish this is to take a tank divider and move all the fry to one side of the tank gently with it and gently remove slowly the first gallon of water from the side where the fish are not and allow the water level to equalize on both sides then remove the second gallon from the side where the fish are not and slowly allow the first of the replacement gallons to pour gently into the side that the fish are blocked from. Never work into the side where the fry are in. Then add the second gallon in the side where there are no fry. When the levels have equalized you can remove the divider until the next day and allow them to have the run of the tank again. Or if you do not want to have the trouble of putting the divider up and down every day, put the divider up and leave it in the tank for the time being and don't take it down until the fry become bigger. They will have a lot of room to swim in and the water will equalize around the edges and through the holes in the divider fine anyway.


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## fishfinder

*Re: alexcb needs help*

I'm sorry your male began eating the eggs. It happens, especially if the male feels his family is threatend or when he is young and inexperienced. But you do have one more chance at hatching any surviving eggs to the prolarvae stage (hatching) and then to the fry stage.

Hopefully you have a bare tank bottom which will make things easier. First, you will need to protect the eggs from mold by adding methyline blue (I believe I used 1/4 the does recommended). The Dad performed this task when he caught any falling eggs and spit them back into the nest.

Secondly drop the water level down to 2 inches instead of 4. This gives the babies a chance to make it to the surface easily. They will fall out of the nest and need to be close to the top of the water where it is more oxygenated.

I'd really advice against using egg yolk since it fouls the water. There is another product you may be able to find called first bites by Hikari. Its a powdered food. Or you may be able to start your own infusaria to feed them.

Please let us know if they hatch. By the way. When you drop the water level, do it with a tiny siphon, made of airline tubing with a small rigid airline tubing inserted into the end. Be careful not to get close to the eggs or the bottom of the tank where you might suck out the eggs.

So:
1. Add Methyline Blue
2. Drop the water level.

If these things do not work, you can try again in a few weeks. Hope this helps.


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## MediaHound

Title edited slightly so people in the future can easily find the thread if they need similar advice.


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## Chickadee

If you go to the store and get a turkey baster and use it very carefully it will work too if you do not feel comfortable with a syphon in this situation but you just stay as far away from the nest as possible so as not to suck up the fry. You can slowly take the amount of water down this way and not cause an over movement of the water. Just go to the farthest corner away from the nest and do the removal very slowly.

You may want to remove your heater as the amount of water in the small tank will not be sufficient to keep that heater from overheating the water and cooking the fry.

The only other product that I know of that will work and I have checked with a friend who used it on her betta fry recently is the Atison's Betta Starter Food. It is a powder form of food and fry can handle it and it will not foul the water.

Rose


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## alexcb

eggs hatched! they are moving like yoyos. i lowered the water but some fry stucked to the glass. a lot of unfertilized eggs turning white. the water is bluish due to methylene blue. i will be looking for betta starter or microworm today in lfs. hope to find some. btw, no heater. Im here in the Philippines, a tropical country. when will they become free swimming and can start feeding?


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## fishfinder

In 3 - 4 days. Have you tried counting the ones that you have yet? I know its hard, they keep 'hopping' and moving around, hiding in the plants, etc. Congrats on making it through the first hurdle.


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## alexcb

its not as easy as i thought but very challenging. i also learned a lot. but the biggest problem is the feed. btw, what should i do with the white eggs (dead)? the parents are in good shape now. they eat a lot and very active. the male keeps on making bubbles in his jar. wc daily the female and some methylene blue. really no problem with the parents. i just wish some of them survive and eat betta starter feed.
im planning to make a small shallow fishnet to catch the fry. maybe the size of a teaspoon.


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## fishfinder

The fry will be way too tiny and fragile to catch in a fishnet. In several weeks, you'll be able to catch them in a clear glass. You can then put them each in their own quart jar for boys, and in a community tank for the girls. Since I had so few fry, I housed each of them in their own quart jars when they got big enough and/or agressive enough to be removed from the fry tank.

After the fry become free swimming and no more remain on the bottom, the bad eggs need to be removed. It takes a delicate touch. That's why I suggested a very precise little siphon that you can make very cheaply. 

I'm glad to hear that mom and dad are both doing well. Sounds like you are doing an excellent job. And good luck finding the fry food. If they are in an established tank with plants, they should be okay for a day or two when they become free swimming because there will be some infusoria in the tank already. You may be able to grow your own infusoria if you have a pond or lake nearby where you can collect some water and water plants, as long as they aren't polluted. There will be tiny bugs in the water that you can't see. It would be better if you can find one of the powdered fry foods. Do you have friends or a local aquarium club who could help you out with some of the first foods?


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## alexcb

i dont have friends to ask and the lfs staff dont know much but he offered me artemia. is it brine shrimp? can i use it? the instuction is not written in english but the staff told me to just put it in water with aeration. 
the fries are floating on top, no more sac. i gave them boiled eggyolk as big as 2 heads of match, dissolved it in a little water and pour it on tank. i feed the eggwhite to my biggest, wrytchwrock. 
btw, how often should i feed the fries? and how often should i siphon the bottom of tank?
sorry for lots of qustions. i hope you not getting annoyed and if so, im very sorry. you guys gave me the courage to continue this. without your helps, i have already given up.
again, THANKS A LOT!!!!!


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## fishfinder

Yes, artemia are brine shrimp. You can make your own hatchery as I did when I had fry. There are instructions for a simple DIY hatcheries from 2 liter plastic bottles on the web if you search for brine shrimp hatchery.

Chickadee has posted a list of pages written by a very knowledgeable breeder of bettas. The post with the links is called A betta diary from a master IMHO, and is located in the betta forum as the first post you will find. I hope this helps. The link to the post is:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f52/betta-diary-master-imho-2966.html

Please keep us informed about your progress. We've enjoyed your posts. Keep them coming!


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## alexcb

is artemia and baby brine shrimp the same? can i feed them with artemia? when? they are4 days old. i removed the dead eggs. i put 1 fry in a jar. i just want to see if it can survive. i also add a glass of water in the tank. the 10gal tank is ready since yesterday. im giving them boiled eggyolk now.
sorry, i didnt notice im in the first page so i typed the same question thinking its not yet asked. i feel like my wife was the one who gave birth (shes about to give birth next week).


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## Chickadee

As fishfinder has said the artemia are what you are looking for to feed them with. I have kind of stayed out of the picture here as I find that she is offering you excellent advice and doing a fine job and I really do think that too many people giving you advice can confuse you. I would like also for you to try to take the time to read those posts that are at the start of the Betta Forum as I do think that if you do it will help you to see what another betta expert who has done this several times has to say.

I wish you well and think you have a great start. Please do not think that any questions or comments you are making are out of line or not needed. This is what we do here, help each other. If you need help that cannot be found from one of us that is what the big forum is about. There are a lot of us because our collective knowledge is here to help. That is the idea and we want you to ask any questions you may have.

The welfare of the fish and the ability to help those who care for them is our concern and our purpose. So please do not think you are bothering anyone.

Rose


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## alexcb

i guess the fries are around 50pcs. i always clean the bottom with a syringe attached to a air tube with a baloon stick at the end. its really tiring but im enjoying it. i think i will not transfer the fry in the 10g. they are fine in there. this week, i will put an airstone in the fry tank. i think the spawning project of mine is successful. thanks to AQUARIUMFORUM.COM... and to all the guys here especially sir Jim, fishfinder, and CHICKADEE. *#3


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## Chickadee

Yes it is tiring and I am aware the work will go on for about 3 months. For now you can leave them where they are but eventually they will have to be moved and the males seperated out into the jars or they will start to attack each other and the females. But for a bit yet you can get by with the 2.5 gallon tank being their home. It sounds like it is working so far and 50 fry is a very respectable first spawning especially when you had to remove both parents. Congratulations and also congratulations on the impending birth of your own child. 

Try not to stress yourself over much on the work with the fish fry as you will soon have other things to be doing too. It is wonderful that you have all the new ones there at one time and it will be a busy house with a new baby and baby bettas at the same time.

Best of luck and we will be here for you.

Rose


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## alexcb

the fries are still too small. i feed them boiled eggyolk only but im not sure if they are eating. im afraid they dont eat at all, thats why they are so tiny. i read that betta fries eat moving target like microwworm and bbs. can i start giving them artemia? im afraid they are too small to eat bbs. i hate to see their growth hinders by lack of nutrition. i can see them now swimming very fast and im having a hard time catching them when i siphon the bottom of the tank into a jar.
i just noticed you used SHE on fishfinder. you mean....


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## fishfinder

I am definitely a 'she'. And very happy to hear of your success. 50 is a good number of fry, you may lose some as time goes on. I hope you have lots of neighborhood children who will love their bettas.

Its very ingenious for you to use a syringe on airline tubing as a siphon. I always just sucked on the end to get the water flowing.

You should be able to start feeding newly hatched artemia for feedings. To begin with you have been feeding mostly the infusoria in your tank. That gives the fry something to eat. Artemia are very tiny, its easy to overfeed. Those who are not eaten will fall to the bottom of the tank after a few minutes. So siphon the bottom of the tank after each feeding so the water doesn't become fowled. Just remember, in the beginning the fry can eat only newly hatched artemia, which is why you want to keep two hatcheries going. Some advise starting the hatching one day apart and just keep alternating the hatching in your hatcheries.

Please continue to keep us posted about your progress, and about your new baby when he/she arrives.


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## alexcb

before going to to lps to buy bbs, i search on the web about DIY hatcheries and i found out its a little complicated. if i will buy a pack of bbs, how long can i use it? how can i know if im harvesting the baby and not the shell? shell can be eaten and cause disease to the fry. dont want to risk the fry. i found a shop on the web where i can buy hikari first bites or liquifry, though the shop is far and not sure if they have stocks. which is better, hikari first bite or liquifry?


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## fishfinder

When you hatch the BBS, the shells float to the surface with the airstone which bubbles inside. So when you harvest them, you harvest them from the bottom of the water. There is a very simple DIY hatchery made from 2 liter pop bottles. The instructions are easy to follow, and it allows for you to harvest safely from the bottom. The packet of BBS should say how much to add per batch. There should be multiple batches in the packet. To begin with, you only feed freshly hatched shrimp. That means one hatching per day. Which is why you want 2 hatcheries going.

The liquifry and first bites are both excellent. The next food should be the BBS, they take a day or two to hatch, so you would want to start right away. After that the liquifry or the First Bites. Hopefully you have the BBS close by so you can get started. And don't worry, making the hatchery is not as complicated as it looks.

Perhaps Chickadee can give you an opinion of how long you can keep the fry on egg yolk. Usually, you would start the BBS or other food at day 5.


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## Chickadee

I think you could keep them on the egg yolk for up to a week but probably not much longer. Then they really need more than what they will be getting from the fat in the yolk. The extra nutrients found in the liquifry and the First Bites will help them develop and mature and are really needed so unless you are severely hampered from getting them I think the fry really need one or the other after day 7 but I am in total agreement that the preferable day would be day 5 to actually start the changeover to other foods they really need to be weaned off that egg yolk sooner than later.

Rose


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## alexcb

at last! after a lot of searching and phonecalls, i finally got a pouch of hikari first bites and fbw. the petshop where i bought those feeds are quite far. but im really happy now that my fries will be getting enough nutrients. but can i give them fbw now? seems they are too small to eat fbw. thanks a lot for the advices.....


CHICKADEE and FISHFINDER are really GREAT!!!!!!*W*W*W*W*W*W*W*W*W*W


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## fishfinder

Frozen blood worms are too large at this point. Just keep them in the freezer for now. Just feed the First Bites, a very tiny amount goes a long way. If you have a plastic tooth pick, use the spatula shaped end to get a very fine coating of the First Bites and dip it in a cup of water. You can see how it spreads across the top of the water. If you put the toothpick into the water and very gently swish it around, you will see a little cloud of food, that will be best for now. That's just practice before you feed the fry. You can then throw out the water in the cup and try your first feeding of the fry. Try for a small cloud of food. A very tiny amount goes a very long way and the packet will last a very long time. Remember to seal up the packet after each use so the food doesn't spoil. Put in less than you think they need to begin with. It may take the fry a day or two to get used to the food. Feed the same amount of times that you have been feeding already.


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## alexcb

hello! goodnews! i took the 2.5tank out to see it in daylight and found out that theres a lot of fries in there. i told my wife that they are around 70-80 but my wife objected saying that they were more than a hundred. we tried counting them but we thought it was impossible. but really a lot of fries in there. i feed them 6-7 times a day but in small quantity, taking care not to overfeed them. i clean the tank bottom twice a day. add some aged water after cleaning. i wake up in the middle of the night to give them some midnight snacks or to cover their tank with a piece of thick cloth when its raining or cold (tank already has a glass cover) to keep them warm. im just waiting for them to grow some more to be able to feed them fbw.
btw, when can i give them fbw? are mosquito wrigglers good for them? i would like to give the fbw to my new zen zou if it will take a long time for my betta fry to eat fbw.
also, the female is in good condition and eats a lot. when my wife put her jar besides the male, vertical marks are showing again and the male made a big bubble nest. i told my wife not to put the female beside the male when shes cleaning. im the one who is not yet ready for another spawning. lol...


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## Chickadee

Bloodworms are mosquito larvae frozen or freeze dried. They are the same but do not use the ones from nature as they are not processed and could spread disease to your fry. I realize the temptation is to save some money but please do not do it this way. They will not be able to eat the bloodworms for quite some time yet. I would say for a couple of months. You are going to have to wait patiently and I would not move the tank anymore with the water in it if at all possible. The chance of something happening and also the sloshing of the water when you move it is not good with the fry being so small. It could injure them at this stage. They are very fragile at this stage.

Rose


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## fishfinder

Is fbs frozen blood worms? If so, I'll bet Chickadee has the answer. I've actually never used frozen blood worms so my answer wouldn't be much help.

Congratulations on the size of your batch of fry!


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## alexcb

thanks for the reply ladies. from now on i wont move the tank again. i will just give the frozen blood worms to my little zen zou. is hikari good enough until their 2nd-3rd month. are all the nutrients they need present in hikari especially protein. i want to give them something else that will boost their growth (no bbs).


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## Chickadee

Hikari is the best and most reliable brand that I know of for betta foods. They really know what they are doing and when you buy something with the Hikari brand on it I think you can be sure of its quality and ability to be good for your fish. They take special care in their processing to protect the quality of the foods and I trust them a lot. I think the fry will be okay through their first 8 weeks with the Hikari First foods for them After this you will need to see what their size is and if they are at least big enough to tell what their sex is and you have them seperated to the male and female jars and tanks then they need to be started on something more nutritious for them ... there are other things they can have then but if you feed them bloodworms at that time I am not sure they will be ready I think it should actually be the baby brine shrimp. I know you said none of that but that is unfortunately the thing that bettas are raised on and they need live foods to eat or I am afraid they will not eat. It is something about the action of the food that draws their attention to it. Let me do some more investigation to see if there is a substitute but most breeders that I know of have never tried anything else so I do not know that there is anything that is on record for it.


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## alexcb

thanks chickadee, thanks fishfinder!
since i used hikari, the water is always clean. not like when i was using eggyolk. now i think i dont need to clean the bottom of tank twice a day. i clean it once a day but not much dirt. i just want to remove some water and put some fresh aged water. i think hikari first bite is really great.
i read from a member of a local website that mortality in their breeding is high. im worried this might happen to my fry. but as of now, i found only 2 dead fry. when i siphon the water, i let it pour in a wide but short transparent jar until it becomes half inch high. then, i would look closely into the water to see if i siphoned some fry(dead or alive). i would put the live one in a jar (i prepared 2). just incase anything happen to my tank...
i hope chickadee finds an alternative with bbs. how about culturing wrigglers away from home (to avoid mosquito)? is there hikari product that i can use after first bite?


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## Chickadee

There is a product that is excellent but I do not know if you have it there. It is not Hikari but I do use it on my bettas and it is specially made for young bettas but I do not know if they would eat it at that age but maybe by 2.5 months. It is made for bettas under the age of 6 months and it is pellet form and they should be big enough by then to eat it and I know my bettas love it but the problem is for you finding it.

Floating Pellet Betta Food: Ocean Nutrition Atison's Betta PRO 

This is the only substitute for the live foods that I know is made for fry and baby bettas. It is a complete food for them and the only thing you need to watch is not overfeeding with it. It has to be soaked before you feed it in some treated water (with your conditioner that removes the chlorine) and after about 5 minutes of soaking (no more than about 7 minutes) you feed the fish and after a couple minutes you remove what they have not eaten from the tank. It floats on the top of the water so it is not hard to remove and you only put in a small pinch and if they eat it all then add a bit more until they have all been fed. The pellets are VERY small and comes with a small spoon in the container to help you handle them. 

The link I gave you above was just to show the product to you as I realize you cannot order it from there but it will help you find it. There are two types of this one is the PRO {pink lid) and the other is Betta FORMULA (blue lid). Be sure you are not getting FORMULA as it is a food for adult bettas and will NOT work until after they reach 6 months or older.

Rose


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## alexcb

thanks chickadee. i will start looking for atisons now. i still have some months to find it. but if i fail to get atison, i think i dont have a choice but to use bbs. or maybe ill culture mosquito larvae. how about dapnia?


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## Chickadee

While daphnia is a good food for adult bettas I don't think I have ever heard or seen it used on younger ones. I do know that it is a good food for sick fish and helps them to overcome times of stress but do not know if I would use it for a "growth" food. The fry need certain nutrients to develop and I do not think the daphnia will be a good enough substitute for their needs. So far with all I have checked into the two choices are the BBS and Atison's Betta PRO. I would not be comfortable telling you to use anything else for now.

I will continue looking into it and have some breeders I can talk to that are more into the actual breeding now than I am and I will see if they have ever used or know of anyone who has used any other live foods but the BBS.

Rose


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## fishfinder

If anyone can find another live food for new betta fry, it will be Chickadee. The problem is that the tiny fry must be able to fit the whole live food into their tiny little mouths. They do not nibble at it. The BBS are the right size to fit into their mouths, as is the Atison's Betta Pro. The wrigglers and daphnia will be too large.

Perhaps if you get the neighborhood children together and everyone works on the DIY brine shrimp hatchery together it wouldn't seem as complicated. It would also help them to feel more a part of their new little bettas. It would be a fun project. With their parent's permission, of course.


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## Chickadee

I have spent most of the day on with most of the people I know who still breed bettas and none of them have tried anything other than the BBS as they did not need to. None were willing to try the daphnia as they felt it was not complete enough and would not fit the mouths of the fry. The mosquito wrigglers are for sure too large for them at that stage. They are the same thing as the frozen bloodworms so I know that they are not appropriate until they get older. 

I have one more option to check with a gent who is a marine biologist and if he does not know (and since his specialty is saltwater fish he may not) I am out of options as there is not a book or reference material that gives this information.

Rose


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## Chickadee

BETTAS by Jim Sonnier/foods

I went back to Jim Sonnier's information and looked up information on Betta foods and you have to keep in mind that most of this is about feeding ADULT bettas but he does list a couple of things that are good for baby bettas.

Microworms are specifically noted for baby bettas if you can get them frozen. They would be much smaller than the bloodworms.

BETTAS by Jim Sonnier/feedingfry

Read this carefully as it lists some things you can do soon..like the suggestion that you can start to use commercial foods at 11 days. But they have to be very small and should be high in protein content and low in fat content. You will have to read labels.

The information on INFUSORIA at the first is most interesting as it is something you can grow easily with no real special set up. But it is a first food like the egg yolk not an intermediate food. Most of the things on this page except for those at the bottom are for very young fry.


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## alexcb

thanks a lot chickadee and fishfinder. i hope im not giving you a hardtime on my queries (but i think i am). anyway, im sad to tell you that when i cleaned the tank, i found a dead fry and another one in one jar.


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## Chickadee

It is not unusual for some to die. It is sad I know but I have not ever known of an instance even with the professionals when they could keep them all alive. Some have been lucky to keep 10% alive. They are terribly fragile when they are first hatched and your little ones have not had the most ideal of conditions and start to their life. I am not accusing but simply stating a fact. I would say that you will be very lucky to keep half of them going until they are ready to give away in 3 to 4 months and then some of those will not live after they are taken to new homes. This is reality and not unusual at all. People who have been breeding fish for a long time have this type of thing happen and this is the first time your fish spawned.

Even Jim Sonnier who is very much the expert, bred 9 different pairs and ended up with a result out of that 9 spawnings of only one female betta that lived to maturity. (from all nine spawns!) and even lost one breeding pair during the process. You kept your breeding pair alive and you have live fry so far and that is an accomplishment, but please do not beat yourself up for every death as they will not all make it and it is nature's way to keep those who are not strong from living and not being able to breed and weaken the species. Nor will all of the fry be perfectly formed and you will have to face the difficult task of "culling" the ones which are deformed or whose fins do not form right. It would be cruel to allow them to live in pain and with bodies or fins that will not work for them. You will not know for some time which ones they will be but there will be some.

I know these things are hard to hear but I want to be up front with you about what is ahead. I am sure you will be more able to take it when it comes if you know it rather than have it sprung on you later.

Rose


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## alexcb

you are right maam and thanks for preparing me for the future loss. at least i wont be surprised. with their number now, i think even half or less is too much. the male and female are (i think) really eager to breed again. i felt im depriving them of something but i really cant handle another spawning. i also heard that it will shorten their lives.


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## Chickadee

I think we all love our fish enough that the loss of one is too many but unfortunately that is not the way nature works. It would be nice if they could all develop and be healthy and live but realistically how would we find good homes for every betta spawned in the world so I guess that the ways of nature are for a purpose. 

We will just hope for the absolute best and I will hope that as many as are supposed to make it will be healthy happy little bettas for you and the neighbors. That is probably all we can ask for. I know you are doing the very best you can to help them be that way.

Rose


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## alexcb

is it important to add vitamins in the water to make them healthier and grow faster? i saw angel drops vita in a lps and the label says it is essential for fish growth and health. i know chickadee and fishfinder know about this.


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## fishfinder

Personally I wouldn't add vitamins at this time. Hikari First Bites has vitamins in it. You could create problems with over feeding of vitamins.


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## Chickadee

alex, clean water and the first bites are all they need right now. I would say that you are going through a double dose of new father syndrome. You have new baby bettas and a new baby human coming. You are worrying too much. The baby bettas are getting all they need in just doing the water changes and giving them the first bites. Trust us. In a few more weeks they can start to eat other things but no vitamins until they get much older. The foods they are eating contain all the nutrition that they are supposed to get. And fishfinder is correct some of the vitamins are very dangerous when they get too much.

Rose


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## alexcb

at last, im here again. i missed this site and everybody here. my wife finally gave birth last july 20. been through a lot of problems but now we are home at last with our baby WARLUCKZ WRATHZINGER ESPINAR. but before going to the hospital on that day, i didnt forget to feed the fry and do little wc coz i didnt do it the past day. my wife turns mad a little because while shes preparing herself and feeling the pain in her tummy, im preparing the tube, syringe, jar and water for the wc and feeding lol. but now that everything is fine, we laugh everytime she is telling that to our friends and relative. but i fail to feed the fry lunch and i came home late and fed them dinner. yesterday, i found 2 dead fry again but its okay.


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## fishfinder

Congratulations on your new baby Warluckz! Its wonderful news that everyone is okay and safely home. You will have a great tale to tell Warluckz when he is old enough to hear.


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## Chickadee

Yes congratulations on your son and I am sorry that you lost the little fry but only 2 is not bad. You are doing well and you may tell your wife that she is to be congratulated too. 

Of course we are happy with fish but people are important too. So we want to welcome your child and let you know that we are so happy for you and your wife. I do hope that you will be so happy with your child and that he will have a wonderful and happy life. It is very true that you will have a lot of stories to tell him when he gets old enough.

Rose


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## alexcb

been busy the past days. now, the bettas are larger but a lot of them already died. from more than a hundred and now they are around 20.
but its okay. im just hoping to have some juvenile 2 months from now.
i just noticed that some of them are attacking others. i put some in their individual jars. i just promise the kids that we will breed the bettas again...
by the way, my baby warluckz is fine and consumes a lot of milk.


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## dirtydutch4x

congratulations on the birth, I just read through this thread and felt like reporting on my first spawn. After the swimmers started on their own I had well over 100 fry, trying hard to follow what Ive read through-out this forum and others to raise the fry I was sure I was doing something wrong cause they kept dropping off. Finally decided it cant be just me and figured it was my first attempt and I'll go with the flow. Well just under 2 months later I've got 3 fry left. Ive tried not to be affected by this but it is hard especially when you feel you have done everything right. But like mentioned above, nature takes its coarse. Good luck with the rest of the fry and my best to your newest treasure.*W


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## fishfinder

Hopefully all of your fry are in separate jars now. I even jarred my girls separately. Each jar had a plant in it. I cleaned the bottom after each feeding with the little siphon I made, and covered the tops with a loose weave cloth so they wouldn't jump out. 

I'm happy to hear that Warluckz is a very good eater, too!! If you can, post some pics of all your babies.


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## Chickadee

Good job! 20 is actually a very respectable number to end up with at this stage of the spawning. Remember that I have know of experts that have ended up with one adult out of 9 attempts so this is not at all unusual. 

Congratulations on your human baby too. It is wonderful to have babies around they make life so interesting and worthwhile. I really do congratulate you on being able to handle an new human baby along with a spawning at the same time and manage the two simultaneously. Quite a lot of work at the same time.

Thank you for keeping us updated and I do wish you the best with all your offspring. Don't get discouraged with the bettas they and you have done well.

Rose


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## Chickadee

Dutch, there is a stickied post about the expert's experience with breeding at the beginning of the Betta Forum if you would care to read it. It has a lot about betta genetics and his own experience of breeding his bettas in it if you would like to see his experiences and browse through his journal. 

Congratulations on your spawning also. I would encourage you to start your own post so you can journal your experience seperately from alexcb's though so we are not getting them intertwined. Thanks.

Rose


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