# Bit over my head I think



## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

Hello,

I just bought my first home (hurrah!), thing is, the seller didn't feel like moving his fish tank. He asked me if I wanted it, and my 3 year old daughter had been bugging me for fish, so, I said, "Sure".

Now, I had a great aquarium when I was seven (I am now 28, so theres a 21 year gap here). My father did most of the maintenance, and I only remembered bits and pieces. 

So we move in, get settled, and I have time to poke around. I think its 60-70 gallons or so.

HOLY HELL THIS THING IS FILTHY!

Stupid me forgot to power off the filter and remove it entirely before trying to clean filters, so that made a huge mess. The 4 filters themselves were coated with about 1/8th an inch of muck. I scrubbed them out with tap water and a brush. I'll get to those in a second.

I wanted to plant some live plants in the gravel substrate, so I bought some bulbs and went to stick one in the gravel, AGAIN tons of debris comes out! 

So I think I'm going to have to gut the entire tank to make things right. How would I go about this? Wet/dry vac out the water? Rent a pump? 

Garden hose the water back in? I bought some tap water treatment in anticipation of the job.

And as for the filters, theres a gravel like substance in them, with a mesh bag of sorts all stretched over a black plastic frame. Tetra made them. Are these disposable?

The tank has a heater in it, and an air bubbler. Since the filters return water is a triple spout waterfall hitting the water from an inch above the surface, wouldnt that generate enough oxygen?

And the last thing the guy did to piss me off was he added salt to his water. Said it amde the fish healthier. All it did was form a nasty crust on EVERYTHING around the tank, anyone know how to fully remove this? Its like cement. 

Last but not least its got 4 cichlids which apparently nothing else can live with, so if anyone lives near Roanoke VA and wants to trade fish, let me know, cause I dont want em.

Sorry for the long rambling post, didnt know where to start. *c/p*


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## x894565256 (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok, first things: I'm betting you have a 55, they are super common, it's about 48", no? I'm betting you have a big enough heater in there, since the guy had it set up, but you need one that is 150 watts or more. I'd check that.

As for cleaning the salt, I usually soak it and then scrub to get it come off. If it's on something that can't be soaked I don't worry about it. That salt is helpful though, it helps your fish maintain a good slime coat.

For water changes you should get a siphon. Any pet store will have one. My tip is to buy the cheap one that is 5-8 feet long, and if you want a longer one then you should go to a hardware store and just get the tubing the length that you want. The long siphons are like 40 dollars and the tubing is only like $5-6.

Also, while you are at home depot, get two 5 gallon buckets, they'll be like $2.50, that's how you put water back in. Sorry, it's kind of a pain. You probably don't need to actually gut the whole tank, and I definitely wouldn't if it's up and running. All that muck helps to process the nitrogenous wastes your fish will make.

As far as fish choices, I'd say keep your cichlids. Yes, Cichlids can only live with other cichlids, but there are thousands of species of cichlid! And as far as color and tank activity, they are absolutely unmatched in fresh water. I have two cichlid tanks up and running right now, and they are just a lot of fun to sit and watch. They've effectively replaced my TV at times.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

The gravel substance in your filter is activated carbon. Everything in the filter is removable, the media is disposable, and the entire assembly is completely cleanable.

Sounds like the guy before you didn't know how to maintain a tank.

I would put the cichlids in a bowl with some of their grody tank water. Then, empty the entire tank with a siphon hose and some plaster buckets (Homer buckets from Home Depot work great).

Grab a colander and start rinsing handfuls of the gravel in the colander, then emptying now washed gravel into another bucket. Empty the entire tank, then scrub the walls with vinegar. Try not to use too concentrated of a solution, but do concentrate it enough that it will remove the salt and hard water stains.

Put the gravel back in, plant your bulbs again, fill the buckets with water and put the tap water conditioner in the buckets as they are filling. Fill your tank again. Go to your local pet store with the filters in hand and see if the salespeople can find out what inserts you need. I say ONLY ask for filter floss/sponge material, carbon, and bio balls. They'll undoubtedly try and sell you more. Don't buy it.

Your tank will have to re-establish the nitrogen cycle, and will go through some stages where you have high concentrations of ammonia and nitrite which will be toxic to your cichlids. If you care for them as little as I suspect you do, let them tough it out because their presence in the tank will speed the cycle up. If they start showing signs of stress, change out half of the water.

The cycle I mentioned earlier, the nitrogen cycle, is crucial to fishtanks. Here's a link to read more if you so desire:

The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

Welcome to the hobby!


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## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the help. yes, a siphon and bucket sounds easier than a pump and running a hose outside in the long run. 

I don't want to kill the cichlids, theyre living things. I just prefer to have many small fish rather than 4 large ones. 

Only the yellow one is colorful, the rest are grey and uninteresting. I'd love to keep the yellow guy, but he'll probably still kill anything I put in. i got a pleco today and already cant find it. 

As for the muck, it looked like actual mud. The debris in the gravel is wispy grey stuff. That cant be good. 

Plus if I start over I have full knowledge and control of my set up. Id liek to trade or give the cichlids away.

Edit: Actually, how long do cichlids live? The guy told me they were probably going to die soon since he had them for over 5 years, and lo and behold one of them is acting weird. 

Its movement is jerky and its not swimming, just hovering in place. Is this some disease, the reuslt of the prior owners neglect, my ham fisted attempts at cleaning said prior owners mess, or just old age death in progress?

The others are acting fine, eating well, etc. 

Not sure how fish die, I always just found them floating in the morning as a kid.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't get carried away. The tank is probably well established. Any drastic thing you do is going to knock it all out of balance.

Yes it may be pretty dirty, but an hour or two from you could have it looking new again without emptying gravel or all the water. I would do a 50% water change and in the process of taking the water down do a really good gravel vacuum. You could even remove any large items from the tank to make it easier. Take this time while the water is low to take a *new* sponge (I like the kind with the other side is scrubbing material) and scrub the side of the glass all the way down to the gravel. Fill it it back up and if it is anything like you describe, it'll be 100% better or more. Go look for filter replacement pieces and stagger (1-2 weeks apart) replacement of the pieces until everything in the filter is brand new. You can take what is in there and rinse out loose debris in the buckets while you are pulling out tank water. Do not rinse these in untreated tap water. Wait a day or two after the 50% water change and do another.

A cycled tank is one thing to me, but a well established tank is another. This tank sounds well established and drastic changes will derail what has been going on for so long. Ultimately your choice, but for the most part I say don't mess with a good thing if you can avoid it. You could be asking for problems if not. Which is okay, if you know how to deal with them.


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> I wouldn't get carried away. The tank is probably well established. Any drastic thing you do is going to knock it all out of balance.
> 
> Yes it may be pretty dirty, but an hour or two from you could have it looking new again without emptying gravel or all the water. I would do a 50% water change and in the process of taking the water down do a really good gravel vacuum. You could even remove any large items from the tank to make it easier. Take this time while the water is low to take a *new* sponge (I like the kind with the other side is scrubbing material) and scrub the side of the glass all the way down to the gravel. Fill it it back up and if it is anything like you describe, it'll be 100% better or more. Go look for filter replacement pieces and stagger (1-2 weeks apart) replacement of the pieces until everything in the filter is brand new. You can take what is in there and rinse out loose debris in the buckets while you are pulling out tank water. Do not rinse these in untreated tap water. Wait a day or two after the 50% water change and do another.
> 
> A cycled tank is one thing to me, but a well established tank is another. This tank sounds well established and drastic changes will derail what has been going on for so long. Ultimately your choice, but for the most part I say don't mess with a good thing if you can avoid it. You could be asking for problems if not. Which is okay, if you know how to deal with them.


I just want to second jrman. A good cleaning will do wonders, but don't try to do it all at once or you can really throw things out of balance. Even without one or a few massive cleanings, I bet if you just set up a regular cleaning routine, it will get much better with time.

What I like to do is a good, deep gravel vac of about half of my tank during each water change (either the left or the right). That is partly because I would pull out too much water otherwise and also I think it helps keep the tank more stable. On my third water change, I only lightly vac the areas I know a lot of stuff builds up in and I clean my filter floss by rubbing it a bit in the just removed tank water.

I bet if you did something like this each weekend cleaning a different part, you would really get it looking much better in a month or two and would be less of a shock to the tank (fish and bacteria) than a single massive cleaning.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

I got my tank used.. not quite in that rough a condition but not what I would have kept it in. Many people get a tank, but for some reason assume aquariums require no effort. It is like keeping any other pet.. it requires some time and patience, and can sometimes be a pain. Sounds like this guy just let his tank run into the ground when he got tired of it. His loss.

My first recommendation is, like jrman and polymertim have said, take it slow, and don't rip things apart. It can probably be cleaned up pretty well, but it would be best to do it in stages.. then the tank doesn't have to go through the whole cycling thing again. You should get a bucket or two, the 5 gallon types would be more convenient probably. Definitely get a gravel siphon, and go to town with it... Siphon as much of the crud out, changing up to 50% of the water in the tank, maybe a bit more. In the meantime, drop by a petstore or two, try to find one that has very few/no dead fish, and see if the people who work there seem knowlegable. Then ask if they would accept the cichlids for trade. Sometimes petstores will give you credit for fish you don't want, which you can use to get the community fish you want. Also pick up the filter cartridges for that filter (or replace the whole filter, if its reeeeeally nasty). You can also get something to scrub the glass there.

The crust on the sides might be salt, but in my case it is hard water stains.. best treatment is a vinegar solution soaking in it then scrubbing.

I think you'll be in good shape in no time.

Good luck


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## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I wouldn't get carried away. The tank is probably well established. Any drastic thing you do is going to knock it all out of balance.
> 
> Yes it may be pretty dirty, but an hour or two from you could have it looking new again without emptying gravel or all the water. I would do a 50% water change and in the process of taking the water down do a really good gravel vacuum. You could even remove any large items from the tank to make it easier. Take this time while the water is low to take a *new* sponge (I like the kind with the other side is scrubbing material) and scrub the side of the glass all the way down to the gravel. Fill it it back up and if it is anything like you describe, it'll be 100% better or more. Go look for filter replacement pieces and stagger (1-2 weeks apart) replacement of the pieces until everything in the filter is brand new. You can take what is in there and rinse out loose debris in the buckets while you are pulling out tank water. Do not rinse these in untreated tap water. Wait a day or two after the 50% water change and do another.
> 
> A cycled tank is one thing to me, but a well established tank is another. This tank sounds well established and drastic changes will derail what has been going on for so long. Ultimately your choice, but for the most part I say don't mess with a good thing if you can avoid it. You could be asking for problems if not. Which is okay, if you know how to deal with them.


Is it possible to remove the gravel but save the water? Like set aside 10 gallons of the current water, remove the gravel (which makes a huge mess when disturbed-and I want to replace it for aesthetic reasons anyway), then put the saved water back in with treated tapwater and allow it to runb for x days?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you don't like the gravel you can replace it without removing all the water. I would drain down to about 50% and scoop out the old gravel and replace with the new stuff. Just don't break the tank all the way down. I have done with two of my tanks and haven't had any problems.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

I agree with a lot of others, Do Not Start Over. One the cycling process is a pain, fish die, water gets cloudy and a lot of testing to make things right. Get a good siphon and clean through the gravel. Your water will get murky but will settle about an hour after you finish with the siphon. If you local fish store is petco or petsmart, talk to them about taking your current fish. A lot of times they will. Maybe they will let you trade. I know ours has 2 plecos that are over a foot long and a feeder goldfish that is about a foot long, yes a feeder. Maybe they will let you trade to get some smaller ones. I have guppies and love them, they are very active. Also it may help having some established plants instead of bulbs, this way it can help with your water.


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

Kreutz said:


> Is it possible to remove the gravel but save the water? Like set aside 10 gallons of the current water, remove the gravel (which makes a huge mess when disturbed-and I want to replace it for aesthetic reasons anyway), then put the saved water back in with treated tapwater and allow it to runb for x days?


One thing I would point out for this is that the beneficial bacteria that keep your tank stable grow on every surface of your tank, but when you consider surface area, there are two things that seem to have most of it: your filter media and gravel. So I would simply suggest that, if you are going to change both of these, you not do them too close together. Maybe space them out by a week or two. Changing them both out at the same time will probably put you into what we call a mini cycle where toxic chemicals will spike in your tank before your tank restabilizes (from regrowth of beneficial bacteria).


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## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

You guys are a huge help. I will not break the whole tank down. Instead I will take some water out, remove the gravel. Then what? 

Put some water back in with no substrate while the water stabilizes? Tim mentioned not changing the gravel and filters too close together, problem is once I disturb the nasty filthy gravel its going to be a HUGE mess, how do I get the water to stay clean? Its going to overload an even spotless filter. 


Also, previous owner left a siphon looking like this:










What the heck does the other end attach to? Id love to clean the gravel before disturbing it.

Also, I'm thinking of replacing the substrate with black sand for visual reasons, how does maintaining sand compare to gravel?

Orrrrr............

I'm also considering laying slate or tile on the bottom for ease of cleaning(being a flat surface), with patches of fine gravel for plants to grow or the pleco to dig in, has anyone done this? I'm envisioning it looking something like a chessboard, but not evenly spaced.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The big fat end (clear tube) is the suction end to do gravel vacuuming. The other end hooks up to your faucet. The valve in the vertical position will suck water out of your tank when you turn your faucet on...operates on the veturi effect. Put the valve in the horizontal position and you push water to your tank to refill.

Awesome tool. Anyone who hates using/carrying buckets should use this. I use one, but don't use my faucet to pull water from my tank. I get the siphon going and just let it run out the tube and outside.


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## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> The big fat end (clear tube) is the suction end to do gravel vacuuming. The other end hooks up to your faucet. The valve in the vertical position will suck water out of your tank when you turn your faucet on...operates on the veturi effect. Put the valve in the horizontal position and you push water to your tank to refill.
> 
> Awesome tool. Anyone who hates using/carrying buckets should use this. I use one, but don't use my faucet to pull water from my tank. I get the siphon going and just let it run out the tube and outside.


Must be what the previous guy did, it does reach the faucet but doesn't fit onto it.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Kreutz said:


> Is it possible to remove the gravel but save the water? Like set aside 10 gallons of the current water, remove the gravel (which makes a huge mess when disturbed-and I want to replace it for aesthetic reasons anyway), then put the saved water back in with treated tapwater and allow it to runb for x days?


In this case I think the safest course would be:
1: Siphon vacuum the gravel out to get a lot of the crud out, and let the rest get caught in the old media cartridge
2: Get some pantyhose or a filter media bag and stuff as much of the old gravel into it as possible, while keeping it inside the tank (wet). You can leave this in the tank while getting your new substrate to build up bacteria too.
3: Remove all the other old gravel you can
4: Add your new substrate (black sand sounds great)
5: Wait a week
6: Change the old media in the filter. If the filter takes two media catridges then change one, wait a week to change the other.
7: Use an API master test kit to test the water parameters for a few days, watch for anything above 0 in ammonia or nitrites. This indicates a mini-cycle and you should not add any fish till these zero out.
8: remove old gravel in bag after a couple of weeks.

Don't know if this is the best way, but its how I would approach it. Some others might have some better ideas.

Also, I would strongly suggest considering live plants. Lately I've gotten into them and have found them very easy, and very beneficial. The main concern is whether you have enough lighting for them. Let us know if interested and we can talk lighting. 

Good luck!


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## Kreutz (Dec 24, 2010)

mfgann said:


> In this case I think the safest course would be:
> 1: Siphon vacuum the gravel out to get a lot of the crud out, and let the rest get caught in the old media cartridge
> 2: Get some pantyhose or a filter media bag and stuff as much of the old gravel into it as possible, while keeping it inside the tank (wet). You can leave this in the tank while getting your new substrate to build up bacteria too.
> 3: Remove all the other old gravel you can
> ...


Definitely sounds like a good plan. My filter actually has 4 cartidges, not sure how normal that is. They are this kind:










The cichlids will be gone, think my pleco could survive this process? I've become attached to the little guy and want him to be safe-my kids seem to love him too. I will not buy any new fish until this all sorts out. 

Also have to lower the pH to about 7 or so as its very alkaline now being a cichlid tank. 

I decided to use slate or tile on the bottom with squares and gaps of fine gravel or black sand for plants and burrowers. If I do what you suggested I can remove half of the gravel, put down the tile, then do the other half a week later. 

And I am *definitely* planning on using plants. I saw some already grown at Petco, I bought bulbs though, can always return them. 

The lighting situation is there is weak ambient natural light hitting the tank, but it is not near direct sun. The only time any direct sun would come close to hitting it is the setting west sun. There are two hood style artificial lights on the top of the tank, no idea what bulb they have.


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