# Invisible disease.



## 8upHobbiest (Nov 15, 2013)

Hey all,,,,, I need a little help. About 2 months ago I bought a red tail shark from a place where I shouldn't have,,,, and I knew better,,,,, but it was the only one in town I could find and it looked fine in the store tank. It still looked fine for a few days once I put it in my *125 gallon tank *but I noticed it was starting to do some flashing/rubbing against the bottom and plants and wood décor. On closer inspection I could see a little bit of velvet but no sign of ick or external parasites. Then a couple of days later my Dennison's Barbs, (as well as some of my other fish), started flashing/rubbing but no visible indications of disease. I thought it was probably velvet or ick since those are the symptoms and decided I had probably caught it early enough that medication would be simple. I went out and bought *Sentry "Coppersafe" for ick, velvet and external parasites* and treated the tank per specifications. It's been about *30 days* since I did the treatment, and all of the other fish that were rubbing/flashing have stopped doing it, EXCEPT for the Dennisons. All of the fish look perfectly healthy, and there are NO exterior signs of disease on any of them. My water change schedule is every two weeks and I do 35% each time. My ph is standard and stable at 7.4, no nitrates or nitrites, (all in the safe range), the water is hard but filtered from the tap, and I raised the water temperature to 80 during the treatment period. No detectable ammonia levels and the water is crystal clear. My 3 filters cycle 1,125 gallons per hour. No charcoal,,,only bio media and 5 bio wheels. The tank has been cycled for several months, (since August), and growing traces of green algae. I'm not adding anymore fish and the last one to COMPLETE the tank was the Red Tail. I haven't turned the temperature down yet though just to be safe. The Dennisons are not doing as much rubbing, in fact very little compared to before the treatment but they are the only ones still doing it. No loss of appetite and they all are eating like pigs. I've done 2 water changes since the treatment. Am I missing something? I can't think of anything else it might be except for maybe the water temp being a little high. Maybe I should have gotten a different brand of medication??????

7 Dennisons Barbs, 25 Neon Tetras, 7 Colombian Tetras, 9 Harlequin Rasboras, 8 Rummynose Tetras, 4 Blue Rams, 5 Angels, 4 Albino Bristlenose, 1 Red Tail Shark

*c/p*


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Kordon rid ich plus or quick cure kill most exterior parasites.Malechelite green and formulin are the magic cocktail that works.The ich can and will hide in the gills of the fish where it is impossible to see.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't use copper for anything on my tanks. 

You say you raised to 80? What was it before? Angels like temps around 82. Just curious what you had it at. Raising temps to medicate doesn't work for anything.

Agree with Kordon Rid Ich and Quick cure. The best meds to have at the standby.


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## 8upHobbiest (Nov 15, 2013)

I didn't say I used Copper. Coppersafe is free of copper. As far as the angels in regard to the temp,,,, it was at 78 for the other fish. But I have to strike a median somewhere. 80 it is and 80 is where it stays because I can't give every fish in the tank the perfect temp. It's as close to a compromise as I can go with the other tank mates who like it cooler than 80 and I'm certain that in the wild water temperatures vary. I would also add that the 
LFS temps were much colder than the temp in my tank. I came here with a question about disease because this is the forum for disease and not general discussion though. I appreciate any input you have to offer but don't want to argue semantics about other topics while in this forum. Thanks


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sentry coppersafe (like seachems version) IS chelated copper sulfate.I count it as copper,and have used it (seachem) in my marine tank.It did indeed register on my copper test kit.If you plan on using it again I would get a copper test kit so you can know the level of copper in the tank.This is very important as to much copper will kill fish.
I read reviews on the sentry and a few said it never registered on their copper test and it did not work at all.
For what it is worth the seachem didn't perform to my expectations either.
In marine tanks(can't say about FW) having a substrate(crushed coral I believe) will have an effect on the sturation of the copper(not good ,as in it lowered the effectiveness of the copper dramatically).For QT tanks it is recommended to have NO substrate when using copper.When I did this it worked a little better I believe.
I know there are differences between FW and Marine(the ich is TOTALLY diferent),but I would do my best to follow the same directions for both types of aquariums unless it specifically said differently.They do both require different levels of saturation(why the test kit is pretty important).


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

Never had any luck keeping red tail sharks, they would die within days, so I gave up. Never had any trouble with the other fresh water sharks.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

8upHobbiest said:


> I didn't say I used Copper. Coppersafe is free of copper. As far as the angels in regard to the temp,,,, it was at 78 for the other fish. But I have to strike a median somewhere. 80 it is and 80 is where it stays because I can't give every fish in the tank the perfect temp. It's as close to a compromise as I can go with the other tank mates who like it cooler than 80 and I'm certain that in the wild water temperatures vary. I would also add that the
> LFS temps were much colder than the temp in my tank. I came here with a question about disease because this is the forum for disease and not general discussion though. I appreciate any input you have to offer but don't want to argue semantics about other topics while in this forum. Thanks


I just mentioned a general remark toward copper. Generally, if it says copper in the title you may want to read what people say about it. Especially since this particular med is copper sulfate as Tom mentioned. Copper may be very effective in the treatment of some things, but it can be dangerous and have long lasting effects to your tank, not just the fish.

I asked about temps to maybe get where a possible source of the issue could have been. You say that the lfs had much cooler temps than your tank, did you properly acclimate the fish prior to putting in your tank to get it ready and acclimated to your temperature? I am absolutely convinced that fluctuating temps cause more stress on fish than anything, which in the end leads to problems popping out of nowhere. Not that you had that. Temps get discussed in every disease thread, nearly. 

As far as Angels go, I only know what mine seem to do best in. I was more trying to see where your temp was at more than anything, prior to you turning it up. We all settle in on one temp to fit all the different species we may have.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Have you done the flashlight test for velvet? I would treat with the suggested meds above, but also note that fish not in the right temp range will become stressed which in turn will cause them to be more vulnerable to parasites ad disease. 

I personally have had a ton of success with the Quick cure. Its cheap enough and easy to find. I also suggest you up your water changes to weekly especially when dealing with parasites. You will want to make sure to remove them from the substrate once they fall off the fish.


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