# Ph question for CRS tank



## GeminiPrincess (Oct 1, 2010)

So the CRS tank i set up is at the following:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate almost 5 still a tiny bit light maybe more of a 3
Ph 7.6

Now my main question is I added a M size of drift wood (10g). All my tanks stay at 7.6 and I was thinking the driftwood would lover it but hasn't. How long would it take to lower it? How else can i lower it? What should the ph be for CRS?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Doesn't matter too much as long as the are properly acclimated.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

CRS are the more sensitive of the shrimp. Prefer low ph. Driftwood won't lower it enough. If you want them to thrive and breed mix your water with ro to lower the ph. Nitrate should be ok, and if you have plants in the tank it will help lower those as well.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

A common method is also to add a peat moss layer to the filter (little peat moss in a filter bag). You could also put some below the gravel, if the tank were empty. beaslbob does this so his neons don't die when the pH rises over time.

This is not as predictable as using RO water, I'm sure, but I've seen it referrenced elsewhere as well. FYI I've never done this. James would be good to ask, as he keeps CRS.


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## GeminiPrincess (Oct 1, 2010)

mfgann said:


> A common method is also to add a peat moss layer to the filter (little peat moss in a filter bag). You could also put some below the gravel, if the tank were empty. beaslbob does this so his neons don't die when the pH rises over time.
> 
> This is not as predictable as using RO water, I'm sure, but I've seen it referrenced elsewhere as well. FYI I've never done this. James would be good to ask, as he keeps CRS.


Will try the peat moss, any suggestions on a brand that does not have additives? I'm getting my CRS from James so i will talk to him about it as well thanks


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## GeminiPrincess (Oct 1, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Doesn't matter too much as long as the are properly acclimated.


I have been dripping everything i put in there since you suggested it


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If they are in fact that sensitive, then mixing with RO will be your best bet. Will also help if you have ammonia at all in your tap, as most shrimp need pretty good water quality.

I have one I'm selling if you're interested.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Doesn't matter too much as long as the are properly acclimated.


Not for CRS unfortunately. pH plays a big factor in their health and development. I would suggest a range of 6.8 - 7.2 for best results. However, I have been successful at 7.4 since they are in one of my Oto breeding tanks. I'm working on some selective breeding now for that, I am dropping it just a tad.

Another thing I like to do as well, is once a month during water change time, I will use spring water instead of my tap. Has all the minerals that RO/DI removes and has a nice neutral pH.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Not for CRS unfortunately. pH plays a big factor in their health and development. I would suggest a range of 6.8 - 7.2 for best results. However, I have been successful at 7.4 since they are in one of my Oto breeding tanks. I'm working on some selective breeding now for that, I am dropping it just a tad.
> 
> Another thing I like to do as well, is once a month during water change time, I will use spring water instead of my tap. Has all the minerals that RO/DI removes and has a nice neutral pH.


So how do you personally drive the pH lower? I'm curious as I've given thought to doing a CRS someday, and want to know whats involved before I get into it. Is a little peat in the substrate or filter even going to help? Do you just use spring water to get neutral? Is the spring water buffered at 7.0 (meaning, will it maintain its pH pretty well)?

We appreciate your input.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

The best part for me is that the pH out of the well is really low. We're talking < 6 low. I use crushed coral to age my water which also buffers it to steady the parameters. Keep a little in the filters as well.

I use the spring water since it is a good pure source. It's not needed by any means though. Just a refreshing change of pace. The tank seems to like it. ;o)


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The only natural way to drive the ph lower is by RO water you make, or buy, which usually comes with the minerals. The downside is it is probably soft, so you just add some of your tap with it - providing your tap has some hardness to it.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

James0816 said:


> The best part for me is that the pH out of the well is really low. We're talking < 6 low. I use crushed coral to age my water which also buffers it to steady the parameters. Keep a little in the filters as well.
> 
> I use the spring water since it is a good pure source. It's not needed by any means though. Just a refreshing change of pace. The tank seems to like it. ;o)


Ah well, you're a lucky duck, then aren't you?
My two main tanks seem to hover around 7.6-7.8.



jrman83 said:


> The only natural way to drive the ph lower is by RO water you make, or buy, which usually comes with the minerals. The downside is it is probably soft, so you just add some of your tap with it - providing your tap has some hardness to it.


I've seen several references to peat moss driving down pH, just less reliably, and with the fun of tannins.

So if I would like to keep CRS, the lowest I can reasonably hope to drive the pH down to is 7.0, but then it will not be buffered, and will easily be driven higher over time, correct? My chemistry is weak, so forgive me if my understanding is a little off.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Peat is a good way to lower naturally, it just doesn't lower it very much. So if you are far off what you need you may not get there. How much it affects things could change over time. You need some hardness to keep the ph stable. Believe there are additives that can safely be added to increase if needed.

If your target was 7.0, but you needed to add some of your tap to up your kh and your tap was 7.6 (for example), you could add acid buffer to your RO before you mix it and still get you to 7.0 after you add tap water. The buffer would lower the ph of your RO water. Would take some experimenting and there may be easier ways to get you there than that method.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> The only natural way to drive the ph lower is by RO water


Several ways to naturally lower the pH.

Peat is the most widely used method and it will also provide stability. But as mentioned, you will have tannins unless you want to run carbon in your filter. I myself like the tannins as it provides a more natural environment.

Indian Almond leaves, is another good choice. And shrimp love working through leaf fodder. Again though, comes with tannins.

MTS (Mineralized Top Soil) substrate is an excellent alternative. Takes a while to make though. I'll be doing this come spring time. I'm trying to find some ADA Amazonia Aquasoil II currently.

Also, if a nice planted tank, CO2 injection.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

RO is still the most natural and stable. Peat can loose its potency over time, although in the substrate is better. The other methods have too many variables. Even CO2 will fluctuate up and down.

Not to mention the ease, cost, less to try and figure out, always know exactly what your getting, etc.. Peat, almond leaves, CO2 - not so easy to go from X ph to target ph. Too many unknown variables.

We are just talking a small shrimp tank.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Several ways to naturally lower the pH.
> 
> Peat is the most widely used method and it will also provide stability. But as mentioned, you will have tannins unless you want to run carbon in your filter. I myself like the tannins as it provides a more natural environment.
> 
> ...


Don't mind some tannins, but last time I didn't presoak the driftwood I got, and the water looked like tea for a while. 
On the indian almond leaves, do you just drop one or two in, and let them rot on the floor of the tank? I've also seen oak mentioned. I have a lot of oak trees out front. Have you tried this and would they work as well as the indian almond leaves?

I've seen the MTS before, but didn't think about it from a pH adjustment point of view. Now I can see why it might be well worth the trouble.

So far I've only kept RCS in the peat/sand/gravel mix beaslbob recommends. The pH is a little lower, but maybe the peat isn't very quick to affect it, being on the bottom layer. I do however like the environment an NPT provides the shrimp. They seem to really enjoy all the flora of an NPT, and I think the low water flow (just a small sponge filter) is pretty good for them. I do wish I'd picked a black substrate, but hindsight is 20/20, right?



jrman83 said:


> RO is still the most natural and stable. Peat can loose its potency over time, although in the substrate is better. The other methods have too many variables. Even CO2 will fluctuate up and down.


Yes, I've wondered how long the peat will continue to contribute to the pH.. what I keep coming to is it will probably work as long as I'll have that tank setup in that configuration. In a few years I may wind up redoing the tank.. so I'll just not worry about it now.

One more question. Will CRS and CBS live in pHs that are not optimal? I mean, is the pH question just for breeding, or will they keel over on me if I had it wrong? Also, I've read that lower grade shrimp will do better in parameters that aren't as good. What is about 50% red.. grade A? If so, are they much easier, or do you need grade B or C to get more tolerant shrimp?

I've been saving up all my questions for when I can setup a tank for them, but Gemini went and opened up the topic.. now I am really hijacking. Sorry Gemini! I hope yours work out well for you


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> not so easy to go from X ph to target ph. Too many unknown variables.


Would you believe me if I told you it is easier than you think?


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

I've used oak leaves before for the fodder and tannins. It's definately a good alternative to the almond leaves. I really haven't eyeballed the pH factor of it though.

As for lower grades being more tolerant, can't attest to that either as I haven't played with that aspect of it. A pH of around 7.4 is really about as high as you want to go with them. I certainly would not recommend anything higher. They won't die off immediately but you will notice the health decline and eventually them passing on. Even at the 7.4 mark, they will "live" but not so much "thrive" if you know what I mean. 

My guys have definately colored up better and been more active, including breeding once I moved into the selective breeding part and keep a lower pH.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

James0816 said:


> I've used oak leaves before for the fodder and tannins. It's definately a good alternative to the almond leaves. I really haven't eyeballed the pH factor of it though.
> 
> As for lower grades being more tolerant, can't attest to that either as I haven't played with that aspect of it. A pH of around 7.4 is really about as high as you want to go with them. I certainly would not recommend anything higher. They won't die off immediately but you will notice the health decline and eventually them passing on. Even at the 7.4 mark, they will "live" but not so much "thrive" if you know what I mean.
> 
> My guys have definately colored up better and been more active, including breeding once I moved into the selective breeding part and keep a lower pH.


That's about what I expected. The RCS live, but don't thrive in the high nitrite spike I've suffered. I figured it would be like that, but an order of magnitude more important for CRS/CBS.

Thanks for your insights.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Would you believe me if I told you it is easier than you think?


Maybe.

I get CO2. Not too difficult there, but ph will fluctuate even with a ph controller and leaving on 24/7. DIY wouldn't really be good to maintain a value so it would have be pressurized/regulated CO2. A little costly depending on size of tank.

The other methods you'd have to tell me how. There is no formula out there that I know of (assumption) that says if you add this much peat/leaves/etc. per gallon it will affect the ph by X amount and I'm guessing even if there was, there'd be no way to tell how long or how much those materials would continue to affect the water over a course of time. What would be the options at that point? I don't argue these methods don't work. I just personally feel they could be cumbersome in attaining your goal and keeping it there - over a given period of time of course.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Granted these aren't "set it and forget it" applications by no means. It will take constant observations and dilligence by the keeper to ensure all the checks and balances are there. Which we all should be doing anyway right? ;o)

It's the same principle when using crushed coral to raise your pH. Now granted everybody's water is different. And thusly, everybodys tanks are different. Which is why, as you mentioned, there is no "x" amount to add to achieve "x" goal.

Knowing where my water sits from the tap and a little bit of close experimentation, I have determined how much CC I need to use. Same principle applies to using Peat. You don't just go in and shove a wad of it in your filter of course. You start small and monitor the effects and adjust from there. I never considered it to be too cumbersome myself. It's part of learning the hobby. But I can see where to some it would/could be.

DIY CO2 can be monitored via a drop checker. Once you notice the fall, you recharge and away you go.

You always have to, or at least should, learn what your particular tank is doing and what works or doesn't work inside it.

I see your point though, don't get me wrong.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*CRS is best bred in Amazonia Aqua Soil because the substrate naturally lowers the pH of tap water if the tap water is hard. My tap comes out 7.6. I have kept CRS for quite a while, I keep them in pure RO water and Eco-Complete substrate. My pH is around 6.4 I believe. I would keep them with ADA soil, but I could not afford it because 1 bag is $40+ bucks with shipping included. RO doesnt have any minerals in it, therefore I add about 20% tap water and 80% RO water during water changes. Sometimes I do 10/90 also. 

My red cherry shrimps and yellow shrimps however are kept in plain tap water, no RO.*


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

NursePlaty said:


> I would keep them with ADA soil, but I could not afford it because 1 bag is $40+ bucks with shipping included


Tell me about it! That's what's keeping me from getting it myself. GRRRRRR!


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *I would keep them with ADA soil, but I could not afford it because 1 bag is $40+ bucks with shipping included. *


Wow. And I thought eco-complete was pricey.


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## GeminiPrincess (Oct 1, 2010)

Wow this is so much information to take in lol I live on the bayou so i have an abundance of oak leaves floating around. I'm going to call around and see if i can find some RO water to add as well. I'm a bit paranoid now though that I will kill all the CRS because of Ph problems. Glad I have a few weeks to get things in order and see what works.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

mfgann said:


> Wow. And I thought eco-complete was pricey.


*If you go to Petco's online website. They have it for 15.99 for a 20lb bag. Not bad considering regular plain gravel in stores are $1/lb. If you order a certain amount, the shipping is free. 

Make an account at Petco and the required price for free shipping will lower. They sent me an email for anything over $25 being free shipping. The promo code is 25shipping10. without the code, it is $30 or more for free shipping.*


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

GeminiPrincess said:


> Wow this is so much information to take in lol


Tell me about it. I've just read comments here and there about CRS needs and had a bunch of questions built up. I hope you do well with the shrimp, though. CRS sure look great. I'm envious.



NursePlaty said:


> If you go to Petco's online website. They have it for 15.99 for a 20lb bag. Not bad considering regular plain gravel in stores are $1/lb. If you order a certain amount, the shipping is free.


That is very true. I may use that logic to talk myself into a bag for my next project. I need new t5 bulbs for my home depot special hood anyway. 3500K is just annoying. Hmmm... Thanks!


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## GeminiPrincess (Oct 1, 2010)

Ok so I am getting RO water - only 35 cents a gallon! Thought it would be more lol. How much should i get for a 10g? I also have tons of questions but am still building my list of them  Anyone know a really good website that will provide me with tons of information on raising and breeding these little shrimpies? After i do as much reading as possible, I'll annoying everyone here with my questions


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

GeminiPrincess said:


> Ok so I am getting RO water - only 35 cents a gallon! Thought it would be more lol. How much should i get for a 10g? I also have tons of questions but am still building my list of them  Anyone know a really good website that will provide me with tons of information on raising and breeding these little shrimpies? After i do as much reading as possible, I'll annoying everyone here with my questions


Crystal Red Shrimp | The Shrimp Farm

*as long as water is extremely clean, you should be fine. They also like cool water compared to other shrimps. around 70-75F. also get a sponge filter and some moss*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Just be sure to test the RO water and don't assume the ph of it.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Yep test the RO water. RO contains nothing and should measure 6.0 ph. Some places will read 6.8 and its not true RO or truely filtered or improperly filtered.*


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

GeminiPrincess said:


> ...Now my main question is I added a M size of drift wood (10g)...


I just noticed the "M size" you mentioned. I ordered a small piece of mopani from F&S and got a huge piece that I probably won't even use in my 10G unless I break it up some. Not sure if I got "lucky" or if it's all pretty big, but be aware if you order it online. 

Just to make things more fun, the piece I bought in petco to replace it had a fungus or something growing on it shortly after being in the water a bit. The RCS ate it all up though.

Just thought I would let you know my experience. Of course you can always make a piece of wood smaller.. the other direction is much harder.


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