# Can/Should I decrease the ph level in my daughter's guppy tank gradually? How?



## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

My daughter got a 10 gallon fish tank for Christmas. She has cheap Petco gravel, 2 ceramic decorations, 4 plastic plants. She picked out 4 mollies and some snails to start. They did ok for a few weeks then each week, we lost one until they were all gone. The snails have survived. I bought a test kit that tests: Ph, high range Ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels. The only thing that seemed out of ordinary was Ph was 8.4. We waited some time and we got 4 guppy fry from a friend. They did great for 3 weeks, even at high ph. So, we added a few more. They seem happy and active and are growing (one very much faster than the others). However, the fish shop told me and a few online posts have said that although the guppies will live at such a high Ph, it's best to gradually bring it down permanently. I know that Ph down chemicals are not good. I have tested my tap water after treating and allowing it to set out for a few hours and it is 7.4 so I believe there is something in her tank causing it to rise. Could it be the snails? I read somewhere that shells can cause it to rise but wasn't sure if it's that kind of shell. I also read that a piece of wood as decoration would help bring it down. I don't want to drop it too fast as I have heard that the instability could be dangerous to the fish as someone suggested changing out 75% of the water. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

NO its not needed, what is needed is the way to acclimate them. Your ph and where ever you get the guppies from may be different. There is a sticky on drip acclimation and if you learn to do it that way with would work better for the fish.

Also has the tank cycled? Can you give us your readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

susankat said:


> NO its not needed, what is needed is the way to acclimate them. Your ph and where ever you get the guppies from may be different. There is a sticky on drip acclimation and if you learn to do it that way with would work better for the fish.
> 
> Also has the tank cycled? Can you give us your readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?


Thanks for answering! Well they came from a friend's tank whose guppies had babies and since we didn't have any bigger fish to eat them, she gave us a few very early then a few more 3 weeks later. When these get bigger, we will have a fully stocked tank and will get rid of all babies. So, I assume we acclimated them ok cause it's been about 2 weeks since the last addition. I just put the bag in tank for about 20 minutes, then added a cup full of tank water to bag, waited 20 minutes, then did that 3 more times before releasing them. 
I'm not sure how to tell if the tank has cycled but the ammonia and nitrites were both zero and nitrates were in between 10-20ppm (couldn't tell the color matching to chart).


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

PH is a function of carbon dioxide with less carbon dioxide having higher pH. Such as provided by plant action even algae.

Sure it's more complicated than that.

But a high pH in and of itself is nothing to worry about especially if you have fish that are active and otherwise doing fine. 

must my .02


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> PH is a function of carbon dioxide with less carbon dioxide having higher pH. Such as provided my plant action even algae.
> 
> Sure it's more complicated than that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for replying! So, do you think if I got a floating plant, it would help lower the Ph? Like frog bit? I tried one floating plant (I forget the name) but it was very small and get hung up in filter. Seems like frog bit is larger. Would you suggest that I get some? I have snails and they have babies and they are always working so I guess they take care of any algae that may come along.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

No plants will not lower your ph like your thinking, but it does help keep a tank healthier if they are kept up right. Probably what you had before was duckweed, a great nutrient sponge. Frogbit is great, it is also a nutrient sponge. What I mean by nutrients it the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates, but don't expect it to lower ph.


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

susankat said:


> No plants will not lower your ph like your thinking, but it does help keep a tank healthier if they are kept up right. Probably what you had before was duckweed, a great nutrient sponge. Frogbit is great, it is also a nutrient sponge. What I mean by nutrients it the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates, but don't expect it to lower ph.


So, I really shouldn't do anything? These fish will be ok at this Ph for their lifetime? I have gotten mixed answers to how often I should clean the tank. Some say to do it weekly and replace up to 15% of the water. Others say leave it alone to let the environment establish itself. If I change, too much water with fresh water that has a lower ph, wouldn't that shock them? The tank looks fairly clean, the nitrate levels are 10-20ppm and ammonia and nitrite levels are both zero.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

kaekyn0408 said:


> Thanks for replying! *So, do you think if I got a floating plant, it would help lower the Ph*? Like frog bit? I tried one floating plant (I forget the name) but it was very small and get hung up in filter. Seems like frog bit is larger. Would you suggest that I get some? I have snails and they have babies and they are always working so I guess they take care of any algae that may come along.


No actually IME it is reversed.

Fast growing thriving plants lower the carbon dioxide and increase the oxygen over a 24 hour period. And can infact make the tank a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen.

With the lower carbon dioxide the pH will rise with everything else the same.

my .02


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> No actually IME it is reversed.
> 
> Fast growing thriving plants lower the carbon dioxide and increase the oxygen over a 24 hour period. And can infact make the tank a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen.
> 
> ...


Thanks! So, live plants would be a bad idea? I read the little information at the bottom of your post about yourself. Tell me about 'allowing the tank care for itself and no water changes' this tank has been set up since Christmas and has never been cleaned or changed. Just added treated water as it evaporated. I have been at a loss as to whether to clean/replace water. Some say not to because it upsets the environment and others say it is necessary to eliminate toxins.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I do 50% water changes on all my tanks weekly. No harm is done. Your tap is showing a lower ph than the tank? Take a glass of water and let sit 24 hours, once the water outgasses the ph rises on it. After 24 hours test ph and it should show close to your tank ph.


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

susankat said:


> I do 50% water changes on all my tanks weekly. No harm is done. Your tap is showing a lower ph than the tank? Take a glass of water and let sit 24 hours, once the water outgasses the ph rises on it. After 24 hours test ph and it should show close to your tank ph.


I will try that and see. My friend lives right down the road and we are on the same water system. She is who I got the guppies from. I tested her tank ph and it's the same as my tap water. That's also why I was figuring it's something in my tank causing the ph to be high.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

kaekyn0408 said:


> Thanks! So, *live plants would be a bad idea*? I read the little information at the bottom of your post about yourself. Tell me about 'allowing the tank care for itself and no water changes' this tank has been set up since Christmas and has never been cleaned or changed. Just added treated water as it evaporated. I have been at a loss as to whether to clean/replace water. Some say not to because it upsets the environment and others say it is necessary to eliminate toxins.


NO.

Live plants are a very good idea. IMHO. One of the effects is the lowering of carbon dioxide and increasing of oxygen. but that also raises the pH. So with the proper environment a high pH is actually a good thing.

I just replace evaporative water in the methods in the link in my signature. Have had tanks run for up to 9 years with descendants from the original cycle fish. the key is the plants balancing out, stabilizing, and filtering the tank.

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Now Bob show her a pic of your tanks and not your aunts tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Now Bob show her a pic of your tanks and not your aunts tank.


Is this one good enough?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

And the same tank from another thread:



> I have witnessed the tests on the tank in person and the ph was about 8.4


Again a high ph is not necessairly a bad thing.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Is that the new one? How about this one!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Is that the new one? How about this one!


Yep that's the 9 year tank at about the 5 year point.

Look at all those guppies from the original cycle trio. Even with harvesting 1/2 dozen or so a few times for friends.

FWIW 10G, sand substrait, 1 tube flourescent light (15W?)

And of course the glass has not been touched inside or out for over 2 years.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Now I want to ask the op if this is what they want their tank to look like.


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

susankat said:


> Now I want to ask the op if this is what they want their tank to look like.


This is my daughter's tank and we have it set up on a table so that we can view it while relaxing in our living room. I want the least amount of maintenance for the most amount of quality and health. If that means weekly water changes, so be it. But, if the tank can still be healthy with less, I would much prefer it. I guess what I am trying to say is this is suppose to be a fun hobby for my 7 year old and if it is gonna be a lot of work, it's not going to be very fun. We have gone 4 months with the current water and it's still pretty but we only had 4 fish for 2 months then nothing but snails for 2 months and now 11 guppy fry so they don't take up a lot of space or create a lot of waste. I have come to realize that everyone has a different opinion on how much is enough or not enough..lol.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I think your 7 year old would enjoy pruning the plants ocasionally.

best tank ever


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> I think you 7 year old would enjoy pruning the plants ocasionally.
> 
> best tank ever


What plants do you suggest? She really likes the colorful plastic in there now but we have thought about floating and I could probably convince her to get rid of the fakes one to replace with real plants if her fish will like them. But, would we need to get better gravel? We just have cheap petco pink and purple.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well follow Bobs method then, but remember, those fish and plants do a lot better with water changes. Good luck with your tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

kaekyn0408 said:


> What plants do you suggest? She really likes the colorful plastic in there now but we have thought about floating and I could probably convince her to get rid of the fakes one to replace with real plants if her fish will like them. But, would we need to get better gravel? We just have cheap petco pink and purple.


Actually I had the pink and purple in the tank where the hatchet fish were with the ph 8.4. As I remember that gravel also was calcium carbonate based, painted and could therefore result in the higher pH.

I also read on line hatchetfish were supposed to require a pH of 7 or less. Yet they did just fine for 2 year or more.

for guppies just plain sand or your existing gravel will work. with gravel plants to tend to "popup" and will root better in sand.

I use a mix of fast growing and slower growing plants. Fast growers anacharis, Vallisneria, wisteria, cabomba. slower growers small potted typs like crypts or small swords. And even an amazon sword centerpeice. In 10g tanks the amazon swords do get very big.

and use enough so that the tank initially looks like a jungle. Just a couple of plants probably will not make much difference.

The layering I do in the link in my signature with the peat moss prevents kh and gh handness creep over months. With the peat kh and gh stayed constant for a couple of years untill I tore down the tank.

But that guppy tank of mine had thriving guppies for 9 years even with the ph and kh increases. 

But even with that it sure sound like your tank is doing well regardless.


my .02


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> Actually I had the pink and purple in the tank where the hatchet fish were with the ph 8.4. As I remember that gravel also was calcium carbonate based, painted and could therefore result in the higher pH.
> 
> I also read on line hatchetfish were supposed to require a pH of 7 or less. Yet they did just fine for 2 year or more.
> 
> ...


What is kh and gh and what does it hurt, if anything? For now, I don't think we will go with anything planted but I may add some floaters as that it pretty easy to do. I'd hate to start messing around too much when they are doing well as they are. It does bother me that the ph is high but I am trusting what I've heard here and that it is ok. Do you think that adding a piece of wood as decoration would help bring it down a bit? I also do not have fluorescent lights. We just have what came in the box with the tank set up. So, I've heard many plants will not do well in that lighting. I've considered getting some fluorescent but haven't been anywhere, as we live 2 hours from anywhere to get things like that and I don't trust getting them online to fit.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Guppies originally come from waters that flow over limestone. That hardens their water, and raises the pH. You have a very high reading, but it shouldn't bother a guppy.
I'd remove any shells, and do regular 25% water changes. Guppies like clean water, and thrive in fresh water. If the hardness (which raises pH) is coming from the shells, it will gradually and safely come down with regular maintenance water changes.
If it doesn't, it could be your gravel raising the pH, but the reading shouldn't be a worry. 
Live plants are fine if you like them. I do, and have some in every tank, but they are no substitute for water changes and good filtration.


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

navigator black said:


> Guppies originally come from waters that flow over limestone. That hardens their water, and raises the pH. You have a very high reading, but it shouldn't bother a guppy.
> I'd remove any shells, and do regular 25% water changes. Guppies like clean water, and thrive in fresh water. If the hardness (which raises pH) is coming from the shells, it will gradually and safely come down with regular maintenance water changes.
> If it doesn't, it could be your gravel raising the pH, but the reading shouldn't be a worry.
> Live plants are fine if you like them. I do, and have some in every tank, but they are no substitute for water changes and good filtration.


Do you mean remove the empty snail shells? There are a few empty ones but for the most part they all have snails in them. I think it may be the gravel after going back and looking at the description of the gravel we purchased. I think I am going to start changing the water but only when the nitrate level gets close to 40ppm.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I misunderstood and thought you had shells in there too. Sorry.

Basically, my opinion is to not worry, and keep things as they are. That's okay as a pH for guppies.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

kaekyn0408 said:


> What is kh and gh and what does it hurt, if anything? For now, I don't think we will go with anything planted but I may add some floaters as that it pretty easy to do. I'd hate to start messing around too much when they are doing well as they are. It does bother me that the ph is high but I am trusting what I've heard here and that it is ok. Do you think that adding a piece of wood as decoration would help bring it down a bit? I also do not have fluorescent lights. We just have what came in the box with the tank set up. So, I've heard many plants will not do well in that lighting. I've considered getting some fluorescent but haven't been anywhere, as we live 2 hours from anywhere to get things like that and I don't trust getting them online to fit.


kH is carbonate hardness and gh is general hardness. Here I just use sand kh and gh rose to very high levels in that guppy tank pictured earlier. Yet there was a more or less stable populatoin of 30+ guppies of various sized including 6 reproducing adults for 9 years. But neon tetras dod not do well at all. With peat moss in the substrate kh and gh stayes constant neons thrived. So in the future to have a greater variety of fish while still supporting guppies I would consider adding peat moss but that would require changing the substrate.

the incandescent light is they are the long skinny screw in types can be replaced with the spiral compact flourescent replacement bulbs. In fact that is what I prefer for 10g tanks and look for the incandescent type hoods.

my .o2


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> kH is carbonate hardness and gh is general hardness. Here I just use sand kh and gh rose to very high levels in that guppy tank pictured earlier. Yet there was a more or less stable populatoin of 30+ guppies of various sized including 6 reproducing adults for 9 years. But neon tetras dod not do well at all. With peat moss in the substrate kh and gh stayes constant neons thrived. So in the future to have a greater variety of fish while still supporting guppies I would consider adding peat moss but that would require changing the substrate.
> 
> the incandescent light is they are the long skinny screw in types can be replaced with the spiral compact flourescent replacement bulbs. In fact that is what I prefer for 10g tanks and look for the incandescent type hoods.
> 
> my .o2


I think 11 guppies is borderline too many for our 10 gallon tank once they get to mature size. I intend to get rid of what babies dont get eaten. So for now, we are not looking to add anything else. We tossed around the neon tetra idea just to have a schooling fish that's fun to watch but we'd have to get rid of some guppies and as we are still fearful that they won't survice (after our mollies died with no warning), we are scared to get rid of any..lol. 
Should I be testing for gh and kh? I got the test kit that does the 5 main tests.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

kaekyn0408 said:


> I think 11 guppies is borderline too many for our 10 gallon tank once they get to mature size. I intend to get rid of what babies dont get eaten. So for now, we are not looking to add anything else. We tossed around the neon tetra idea just to have a schooling fish that's fun to watch but we'd have to get rid of some guppies and as we are still fearful that they won't survice (after our mollies died with no warning), we are scared to get rid of any..lol.
> Should I be testing for gh and kh? I got the test kit that does the 5 main tests.


I would just for your information. the rise in kh can be surprising.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> No actually IME it is reversed.
> 
> Fast growing thriving plants lower the carbon dioxide and increase the oxygen over a 24 hour period. And can infact make the tank a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely wrong and don't believe. what he refers to may occur in his tanks but only because there is no circulation, no filters, no maintenance and planted. 99% of the rest of the aquarists out there will not see this.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Testing Gh and KH can be useful to establish a baseline. If you get into fish breeding with egg-layers, you need to do it, but otherwise, it's more a question of interest.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> This is absolutely wrong and don't believe. what he refers to may occur in his tanks but only because there is no circulation, no filters, no maintenance and planted. 99% of the rest of the aquarists out there will not see this.


IME the addition of thriving plant life with no other changes has always result in higher pH.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you want to plant your tank you can do it without the layering or removing anything and all that work. Many plants will grow in just plain gravel and Guppies don't need anything special to do well. And no, they will not increase your ph.

The ph you mention is fine for them and you do not need to do anything special on top of what you already have done.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> IME the addition of thriving plant life with no other changes has always result in higher pH.


No, just in your tanks!! Also, your experience is soooo limited when it comes to different planted setups, different plants, or anything above a pool of non-moving water. Therefore the only experience you really have is the tanks you keep. That then makes me believe that you only see it in your tanks because plants do not cause a continual rise in ph.

Go tell that to a planted discus tank owner.

I implore you to go to The Planted Tank - Articles, Forums, Pictures, Links and make the same statement.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I think there are a lot of factors involved so it's hard to make blanket statements that apply to all tanks. Low co2 does cause higher pH. My experience with a heavily planted tank that has a filter and water changes but no co2 injection is that the pH is higher. You have confused matters a little though Bob. The discussion started about floating plants, they can draw co2 from the air rather than the water so will not have the same effect on pH as other plants. Also seeing as the OP doesn't yet have plants the high pH is caused by other factors, not low co2. PH swings caused by CO2 for example are not dangerous for fish but pH swings caused by minerals in the water can be fatal causing osmotic shock.

To the OP: I agree with what others have said. If you pH is stable it should not be a problem especially for guppies. If you think something in your tank is causing the pH to rise you might want to make sure about that because it might keep making the pH rise which could cause some problems long term.

Your original problems with dead fish sounds like it might have to do with ammonia and nitrite spikes from the tank cycle, which had probably finished by the time you got the test kits. Also what kind of mollies were they? Balloon mollies for example are known for not being hardy.


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## kaekyn0408 (Apr 27, 2012)

snail said:


> I think there are a lot of factors involved so it's hard to make blanket statements that apply to all tanks. Low co2 does cause higher pH. My experience with a heavily planted tank that has a filter and water changes but no co2 injection is that the pH is higher. You have confused matters a little though Bob. The discussion started about floating plants, they can draw co2 from the air rather than the water so will not have the same effect on pH as other plants. Also seeing as the OP doesn't yet have plants the high pH is caused by other factors, not low co2. PH swings caused by CO2 for example are not dangerous for fish but pH swings caused by minerals in the water can be fatal causing osmotic shock.
> 
> To the OP: I agree with what others have said. If you pH is stable it should not be a problem especially for guppies. If you think something in your tank is causing the pH to rise you might want to make sure about that because it might keep making the pH rise which could cause some problems long term.
> 
> Your original problems with dead fish sounds like it might have to do with ammonia and nitrite spikes from the tank cycle, which had probably finished by the time you got the test kits. Also what kind of mollies were they? Balloon mollies for example are known for not being hardy.


Thanks for responding. We had 2 dalmation mollies and 2 silver mollies. I have decided to replace the gravel with sand but to avoid shocking the fish to drastically, reusing the same tank water. I plan to do this in about 2-3 weeks.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, certain people believe that high ph means the absence of CO2. Only true to a very limited extent. But, take two buckets of water with differing ph and let them sit aerated for 12hrs and they will both have the same amount of CO2, but still different ph values.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

An absence of CO2 will Cause higher pH but as you say a high pH can be caused by other reasons. Personally I don't see pH fluctuations caused by CO2 as being 'true' pH readings, that is not being scientific, just the way I look at things in relation to fish health.


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