# inactive fish, then dying..



## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Last week, my son wanted to get some neons. I hesitated, but finally went ahead and bought them. I've found them dead, every other day since then. At first I thought it was just how delicate they can be, but today, with the last dead neon, I also noticed one of the glofish (zebra danio derivative) hanging around the top, almost motionless. He only moved occasionally.. seeming like he was trying to swim, but worn out. When he would float around to the HOB output it would push him under, spinning and twirling out of control under the water. He is now dead (4 hours later) and it sounds like the otocinclus in the tank is belly-up too.

I don't see any external signs and haven't noticed any other disturbing behavior. Is this a job for the quick-cure formaline/malachite green combo? Or does it sound like something else going on? I thought it might be an internal bacterial infection, and thought about picking up some maracyn.

Help?

EDIT:
A few more details coming to mind. 
First, the test parameters are fine.. the tank is established, with no ammonia or nitrites and low nitrates(9 ppm I think)

Before the neons died off, one of the first to go looked like it had a triangular shape patch of dull area on his skin. Later I found him sucked against the filter intake. 
Googling around it sounds a little like velvet...?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I this your planted tank(s)?

I have very similiar symptoms (only on the bottom motionless) when I fed my newly added cycle fish. 3rd day breathing heavy, 4th day hardly moving on bottom, 5th day dead.

that always happened until I stopped adding food the first week. Then the fish lived.

my .02


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

No, it is the bigger 30G, which has been cycled. It's standard aquarium gravel, plastic plants, etc, with a couple of live plants thrown in for fun. They're doing fine.

I had 4 tetras.. lost one, found the betta nibbling on it, so I seperated the betta. Betta died shortly after, but I thought perhaps the stress of moving him to a little betta tank he started in might have been it. Then I've lost a neon every other day until today, when I pulled out the last dead neon and noticed the danio acting erratic.

Googling through diseases I'm suspecting neon tetra disease or velvet.. probably NTD, given the patch of skin looking odd on the neon last week. I added a very little salt, but stuff so far says no cure for NTD. Greeeaaaaat.
*frown

Kids are not going to be happy if the fish keep dropping dead. I'm going to start dipping fish in paraguard before putting them in, that or convince my wife QT is necessary. Blasted neons. I have never had luck with them.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I always check out the gills of the neon I have bought. Always had one with red inflamed gills i rejected from petsmart.

In my salt tanks with no macros (long time ago) I would not add food for a week after adding new fish. always (on tanks running for a few months only anyway) had a nitrIte spike about 3 days after addition. With no feeding that spike only lasted a day or two. With feeding it lasted much longer.


Hopefully you will recover.

my .02


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Call the store and see if there is anything in their tank. I took a guppy home one time that died within a few days. Turns out the tank the guppy was in, and consequently the guppy, had ick. I would not recommend you douse your fish with meds unless they actually are sick (and even then I probably would not recommend it). If you want to do something to ensure the health of your main tank get a quarantine tank.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Another danio was down this morning.. a ghost shrimp was trying to drag him off to his secret laboratory. 

So far all four neon tetras are down, the betta's dying may have been caused by it, and two zebra danios. Only a couple of danios and a few platies left, plus the ghost shrimp and the mystery snail. No visible symptoms that I could see. didn't see any spots, fuzzies, or otherwise. The gills MIGHT have been inflamed, but with the little danios it is a bit hard to tell. 

The store has no idea of anything going through their tanks. They say they have a recovery tank for cases like that, but given the circumstances, I am pretty sure it is something from the neon. (BTW, I PMed you, Amie).

I'm not treating with any meds.. just don't have any clue what would even work. Dumping random meds seems like a waste anyway, and if it were neon tetra disease, it is incurable anyway.

I figure I'll let this run its course, and just deal with the casualties, unless I find out what is going on. It has already wiped out most of the fish, any others that are going to die are probably already going to. The only thing I had thought about doing is putting the paraguard in the tank once it arrives. I planned on using it for a 1 hour dip on new fish from now on.. it treats just about everything under the sun, supposedly. The reason I considered it, is that I have ordered some kuhli loaches which are due to ship monday, and I don't want to sentence them to death. I'm going to test my 10G parameters tonight, but I expect its not done cycling yet, and dumping 6 small kuhlis in it seems like a bad idea.

Yes, I need a QT. I'd planned on using the 10 for the betta and maybe a QT, but now that I have a bunch of shrimp and plants in there, it wouldn't be good for QT. I could go buy a small tank to QT with for next week, but there is no way it'll be cycled in time, and I sure don't want to use rock/filter media from the big tank that is having the trouble.
Any suggestions on setting up a quick QT? Some plants and a few RCS with a little bit of rock from the RCS tank thats not done (but hopefully farther along)?

I'm gonna contact the seller of the kuhlis and see if I can cancel/delay the order. (sigh) Neons. Little buggers.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

If the 10gal is a beaslbob and has been planted for a week or more then you can try them in there. But you would have to introduce fish slowly. What about turning up the heat a little in the 30gal and adding a little salt. That`s a much nicer home remedy. They sell organic stuff on aquabid but I`m not sure what product you would use for what problem (and that of course would only be for future problems). Letting this one run its course is about all you can do. At least you will be left with the strongest of the strong fish when it is over.  How many loaches are coming. 2 or 3 might be okay to put in the 10gal together. How long has that tank been set up. To do a really quick QT I think I would get a little tank then do a partial water change with the 10gal (I know we`re not suppose to so we won`t tell beasl) and take the water from the 10gal and put in the QT. Does the 10gal have a filter, if so, then I would take the filter media from that one and put in the QT as well. If it doesnt fit in the filter just put it in the tank or something. I would if you worked hard enough could you convince a pet store guy to give you some tank gravel. Offer to pay the retail price but tell him to put the new retail gravel back in the tank your taking it from and make sure he keeps it submerged. How long will it take the loaches to arrive maybe you have time to beaslbob a QT tank....

Sorry for so many questions and no punctuation marks for it. My kid messed with the keyboard so right now my question mark prints like this: É

Also, I`ll go check my messages, thanks.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

It is 6 kuhli loaches of about 2" each I think (haven't contacted him yet.. work keeps interrupting my important hobby stuff . Seems a bit much to dump into a beaslbob build. The was showing lowered ammonia and a little higher nitrites, so I'm hoping its moving along, but have doubts about whether it will be ready by then. It only has an airstone in it. I have a sponge filter on order, but not here yet. I used the water from the 30G to seed the 10G when I started it, and unfortunately it didn't seem to help a whole lot, but I also wonder if the peat I used is causing an ammonia spike or something. 

Hmm.. Using gravel from the petstore scares me since they're the one that I think gave me this, and the way Neon Tetra disease spreads, the gravel would probably be contaminated (spores that are eaten get into the muscle tissue, grow there until the fish dies, and releases more spores or is eaten). Still not sure if thats the cause, it just fits the clues best so far. There is another petstore downtown.. I may try and beg/buy some gravel from them.

I think I'll at least split the kuhli loach gang, and put 3 in the 10G and 3 in either the 30G or an impromptu QT tank, split my odds so if I crash in one tank I still have some in the other. I may just wait a month or two before I stock anything else in the 30G. At least I didn't have pricey fish in there.. Still, the kids are sad to see Sushi (the betta) pass away.

I did add a little salt, but only 2 tsp in the 30G. (I think its supposed to be about 1 tbsp/5gal, right?) But I think that may be what killed my otto. I'm going to try and add a little more, slower, and raise the temp a bit.

Thanks for the thoughts!


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

If you could get the right set up (and it might be complicated) you could set up the 2 tanks to run on the one filter....or together on the two filters. But since one would be a QT tank it would only be a temporary fix-no good to have a QT filtering into another tank. 

The set up I`m thinking would work like this: 2 HOB filters, 2 tanks and 2 long tubes to fit over the intake. Basically, put a piece of tubing on the intake of each filter and put the other end of the tube into the other tank. So, the filter would be taking in from one tank and spitting it out into the other tank. It might help the new tank to cycle faster, since it will have full access to all the beneficial bacteria in the beaslbob tank. Also, if you wanted too you could go and get a fish to help speed it up (but, yeah go to the other store) so, you have the 2 tanks sharing the bacteria and the betta providing additional ammonia. They breathe our type of air too so they should be hardy and then we your loaches arrive you could move the betta.....hell, you could even put him into a coffee cup if you want!! 

I think that is what I would do here. You would want to make sure that the filters are the same type and size. When the loaches arrive simply take the hoses off and run them as separate tanks. I would also get as much used media as possible too-couldnt hurt after all.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Hmmm.. I think I see a problem with that setup. I think that if one filter runs at even a slightly faster rate than the other, one tank would wind up overflowing. I think this may be why in SW tanks they will drill a tank and use the overflow from the drill point to simply drain down to the sump/refugium at the bottom, then pump it back up. Any salties wanna correct me if I'm wrong? 

I think Beaslbob had a little pvc creation that avoided having to drill the tank though.. 
I did have a little homemade PVC sponge filter that I'd planned on using.. I may let it run in the beaslbob tank this week, and plant some anacharis/vals in a small mini-bob tank, add a few shrimp for fun, then when the loaches come move the sponge filter, with its 'dirty' sponge over.. should at least get some of the yummy bacteria over.. not sure if it would be enough, but it might keep them alive.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

What if you leave an inch or two at the top for that?? That's why I was thinking go with the same pumps.

It might be-I would say get a few in the beaslbob and get the rest out of the mini and into the old beaslbob ASAP. I think the beaslbob will handle the load, given a little time to adjust of course, and whatever old media you can get the better off. I think this is where some people use things like stability. Me personally never use nor sanction the use of anything like that. It would probably give you a little boost towards cycling but then those bacteria will be gone with no new ones to take it's place. I would just be worried about the cost. I'm assuming since you had to order them they are probably costing a lot of money.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Amie said:


> What if you leave an inch or two at the top for that?? That's why I was thinking go with the same pumps.
> 
> It might be-I would say get a few in the beaslbob and get the rest out of the mini and into the old beaslbob ASAP. I think the beaslbob will handle the load, given a little time to adjust of course, and whatever old media you can get the better off. I think this is where some people use things like stability. Me personally never use nor sanction the use of anything like that. It would probably give you a little boost towards cycling but then those bacteria will be gone with no new ones to take it's place. I would just be worried about the cost. I'm assuming since you had to order them they are probably costing a lot of money.


Nah, shipping cost more tahn the fishies.  They were about $1 a peice. I just like loaches, and kuhlis make a good addition (that probably wont gobble up all the shrimp in the tanks). For some reason no one down here is carrying the kuhlis at all. It was just a fish I really wanted. 

Going to a lot of trouble to save $6 fish,.. but then, if I'd already had a QT I wouldn't have just lost half the big tank's population.

The beaslbob 10G I have is showing much lower ammonia, about 0.25 ppm or so, but now the nitrite is spiking somewhere between 2-5ppm (closer to 5 I'd say). Nitrate is hanging around 10 ppm. So far nothing is dying or acting weird, but I sure hope next week gets me over the nitrite->nitrate hump.

I did add some more salt. I'm probably at about half the recommended dose for salting a talk, and thats probably as far as I'll go for now. How do others add salt? Just chuck it in, or add it to the filter? I worried about killing off things in the filter if I added that much salt right on the media.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm not sure I'm happy to report that I haven't had anything come up yet that warranted salt.

A dollar a fish!!!! I am getting so screwed up here in Canada!!!! But........ we have free medical care so I guess it's not all bad LOL. Meaning I can go to the doctor for free and complain that I am under a lot of stress because I can't get plants and fish shipped to me at reasonable costs LOL!!!!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mfgann said:


> ...
> 
> I think Beaslbob had a little pvc creation that avoided having to drill the tank though..
> 
> ..


see:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f37/pvc-overflow-3492.html?highlight=beaslbob+trap


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Amie said:


> I'm not sure I'm happy to report that I haven't had anything come up yet that warranted salt.
> 
> A dollar a fish!!!! I am getting so screwed up here in Canada!!!! But........ we have free medical care so I guess it's not all bad LOL. Meaning I can go to the doctor for free and complain that I am under a lot of stress because I can't get plants and fish shipped to me at reasonable costs LOL!!!!


Weeeelllll.. they're a dollar each, but $15 to ship.. so it works out to $3.50/fish.. of course if you wanted more it would be cheaper, but I just planned on enough for the big tank. Also not really sure about how things'll turn out. Some guy on aquabid that has a website at Home - Fins N Things. This is one reason I really should QT these guys... 

On that note.. I slapped together a 2.5G pico-beaslbob build tonight. Second time 'round it was a little easier to judge how much water to add to the layers, and I was VERY careful about not stirring up sand. It wound up reasonably clear and nice looking. Threw some anacharis, najas, wisteria, pellia, java moss, and a little duckweed hitchhiked too. Put a filter bag with some rock from the 10G beaslbob build in there to kick things off. I'm sure by the time the fish show I'll have one plagued tank and two still cycling.

I think trying to do a quick sump tank setup would wind up messy and bad. I could be wrong, but I won't be allowed to keep fishies if I dump 20 G of water in the dining room *r2


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> see:
> 
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f37/pvc-overflow-3492.html?highlight=beaslbob+trap


Thats the one I remember seeing.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Amie said:


> I'm not sure I'm happy to report that I haven't had anything come up yet that warranted salt.


I agree with the exception of mollys. In a non planted tank my albine sailfin mollys developed a white fungus. Which started pealing off in 3-4 hours after I added aquarium salt. I now use mollys to cycle marine systems.


> A dollar a fish!!!! I am getting so screwed up here in Canada!!!!
> 
> ...


No comment


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

*old dude


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