# Ich and no meds, how can I begin treating tonight?



## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Once I looked up pictures of Ich, I do not believe this is the problem. He has one white spot on the stop of his head, it almost appears raised and "fuzzy" looking...any ideas what this could be and how to treat it?

Best picture I could get...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

looks more like a fungus?


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## Dustin86 (Sep 22, 2012)

With ich one piece of advice is to raise the temperature in the tank.. If it's not ich then I'm not sure if that is still applicable.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> looks more like a fungus?


It does look more like a fungus. I don't believe it's Hole in the Head disease since the affected area is raised from its body. It appears like more of a fungus that is growing on outside of skin. I'm certain it's not Ich because its only one spot.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Couple more pictures


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/help-all-need-41690.html
Check these links and post back what you think you got.The second link will be easier to search symptom and cure.I'll do the same for ya.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Great sites, it sounds most like grey or white fungus, columnaris could be an option as well too, but sounds like they are all treated the same way.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Ok; if it is fungas your safest med will be methylene blue(this med is very safe for fish and filters , but will probably cause trouble with plants(it soaks into them)).If it is bacterial antibiotics are the cure and they are trouble for everything in tank.So I would get FOOD WITH ANTIOBIOTICS in it.Jungle is one brand that makes foods with meds in it.If you choose to use antibiotics in the water I strongly advise a QT tank as the antibiotics are pretty bad for the BB in your filter.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Ok; if it is fungas your safest med will be methylene blue(this med is very safe for fish and filters , but will probably cause trouble with plants(it soaks into them)).If it is bacterial antibiotics are the cure and they are trouble for everything in tank.So I would get FOOD WITH ANTIOBIOTICS in it.Jungle is one brand that makes foods with meds in it.If you choose to use antibiotics in the water I strongly advise a QT tank as the antibiotics are pretty bad for the BB in your filter.


Thank you for the help, I will head to the local PetsMart for when it opens and try Methylene blue (currently only have fake plants) or the food with antibiotics in it. What are the chances of this spreading to other fish?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Almost anything curable seems to be able to spread.I would start with a 50% water change and make sure you turn your water seriously blue as the MB is safe even when dosing is tripled or more.Follow directions on MB and keep us posted.If the store doesn't have just MB,check active ingredients of other meds as MB is in many.Malechalite green might be another option(probably only found in med mixes like Maracyn I orII) Good luck.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

I just wonder if the fish had the fungus before we brought it home (just added the gourami on Tuesday night) or if the fungus was introduced to the aquarium by something I did.

My parents found a box of a bunch of their old fish supplies packed up that they gave me. When I introduced him, I did use one of the nets they had given me as well as a plastic edge hanging container. I thought I had cleaned both thoroughly, but do you think this could have contributed to it?


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

The only thing I could find was a product with Malechalite Green in it called Sentry Aq Mandel, ever heard of this. Do you think this will be ok? I also bought a 10 gallon tank as a hospital and can take 10 gallons out the 55, and move one of my AC 70s to it. Do you think it would be best to move the gourami to this tank, but treat both tanks for the fungus?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The old stuff should have been safe as no disease lives when dried(cleaning should have also helped).
Malachalite green could work.It is another dye based med (similiar to MB).Follow directions.
Seperating could allow you to dose the infected gourami heavier.
Not sure if you need to treat whole tank if you remove infected fish as the fish in your tank are already acclimated to your water.
Often the stress of moving(being bagged) and going into unfamiliar territory will bring out something not visable before.Along with the change of water conditions.
Stores(sometimes even good ones) don't always keep the best water quality,so even changing to better(different water) can cause stress.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Madacide is what it's called on the bottle, I got the hospital tank setup and dosed. I went per directions (2 cap fulls for 10 gallons). Do you think I can dose heavier? The directions do not address that.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The MG is similiar to MB but also has been noted to reduce usable oxygen in water(very similiar to rid ich).An airstone would be a good safe gaurd if you have one.But if your using your AC70 you should really have enough surface movement to not be to worried(I wouldn't just go one if you don't have).Your all good following directions!
A search of mad acids led me back into the sixties and I was 4 in 69!


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I will leave the medication advice to others that have more similar fish, but it is not ick. That is a good thing. This is an interesting fact about ick and I have proven it to be 100% true. If your species can stand water above 87 degrees, raise it to that and you will not have a ick cycle ever get established. If you have a species that can stand 90 degrees, raise it to that for a month and ick is gone without meds of any kind. That is one advantage of Discus, they love bath water temperatures, but about everything else drops dead.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh, this is a big deal, set up a hospital tank. You can take a sick fish out so the others are not as likely to get it. Usually the hospital tank is smaller than your big tank so you use less meds. I used to use an old 10 gallon with a heater and foam bubbler. I use a 29 now but I have even used a large fish bowl before. I kept it running and change water on it by siphoning it down, then pulling down the main tank into it and making up the water in the main tank. That way the water conditions were so similar that I could move a sick fish very quickly. This is a hard one and I have regretted breaking the rule in the last couple of years, always put new fish in the hospital tank for at least three weeks before they go in with your babies, ALWAYS. I treat with a single dose of Formalin the first day and amoxicillin. I do a 90% change out the next day to get the Formalin out, then give the anti-biotic a full ten day course. If I see anything bacterial, I go for fourteen as my vet advises. He is the vet for the Houston Zoo and keeps Discus so I listen. He does not like formalin and warned it can cause long term organ damage so I use the recomended dose and get it all out in one day. In that time it has killed anyting on the surface and the gills that it is going too. My breeder friends say it is essential to kill parasites and sometimes I can see an immediate up tick. I rarely have any disease in my 240 gallon display tank. I have found that the most important thing is water conditions (changeouts) and then of course there is water conditions, and least we forget, water conditions. I hope your fishie recovers.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> The MG is similiar to MB but also has been noted to reduce usable oxygen in water(very similiar to rid ich).An airstone would be a good safe gaurd if you have one.But if your using your AC70 you should really have enough surface movement to not be to worried(I wouldn't just go one if you don't have).Your all good following directions!
> A search of mad acids led me back into the sixties and I was 4 in 69!


Mad acids lol, phone autocorrect got me. I believe it's Madacide but don't have the bottle in front of me. The AQ 70 is plenty of movement in a 10 gallon, almost too much really. I will have to invest is a more suitable filter for it. Thanks for all the good info as usual, hopefully he will hang in there and be back to the big tank soon.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Rod4Rodger said:


> I will leave the medication advice to others that have more similar fish, but it is not ick. That is a good thing. This is an interesting fact about ick and I have proven it to be 100% true. If your species can stand water above 87 degrees, raise it to that and you will not have a ick cycle ever get established. If you have a species that can stand 90 degrees, raise it to that for a month and ick is gone without meds of any kind. That is one advantage of Discus, they love bath water temperatures, but about everything else drops dead.


I've read that alot but really need to look into if my fish can handle temps like that, this experience has taught me to be better prepared for next time.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Rod4Rodger said:


> Oh, this is a big deal, set up a hospital tank. You can take a sick fish out so the others are not as likely to get it. Usually the hospital tank is smaller than your big tank so you use less meds. I used to use an old 10 gallon with a heater and foam bubbler. I use a 29 now but I have even used a large fish bowl before. I kept it running and change water on it by siphoning it down, then pulling down the main tank into it and making up the water in the main tank. That way the water conditions were so similar that I could move a sick fish very quickly. This is a hard one and I have regretted breaking the rule in the last couple of years, always put new fish in the hospital tank for at least three weeks before they go in with your babies, ALWAYS. I treat with a single dose of Formalin the first day and amoxicillin. I do a 90% change out the next day to get the Formalin out, then give the anti-biotic a full ten day course. If I see anything bacterial, I go for fourteen as my vet advises. He is the vet for the Houston Zoo and keeps Discus so I listen. He does not like formalin and warned it can cause long term organ damage so I use the recomended dose and get it all out in one day. In that time it has killed anyting on the surface and the gills that it is going too. My breeder friends say it is essential to kill parasites and sometimes I can see an immediate up tick. I rarely have any disease in my 240 gallon display tank. I have found that the most important thing is water conditions (changeouts) and then of course there is water conditions, and least we forget, water conditions. I hope your fishie recovers.


Thanks for this, I actually decided to buy a 10g yesterday when I saw them on sale at our petsmart grand opening. I cleaned it out real good, and filled it with 10 gallons out of my large tank. I also removed one of my Aquaclear 70 filters from the big tank, a little overkill but was all I had to really get the hospital up and running for this fish. I now need to invest in the rest of the accessories for it, so I will pick up these meds you have listed.


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

Just curious, because the bump doesn't look like a fungus or fuzzy from my view. 

Perhaps IF it is actually smooth, or it persists, it may be a genetic disease.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

He's not looking too good, he appears to be breathing pretty rapidly, I just found him practically on his side on the bottom of the tank. He still managed to swim up and eat dinner a few hours ago. Really don't know what else to do to help him


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Could change out 3 gallons with fresh tonight and re-dose meds tomorrow just to see?


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## foster (Sep 2, 2012)

The MG will reduce the oxygen in the tank. It actually oxyidizes all bio matter in the tank, and uses up a lot of o2 in the process. You can lower the water level in the tank and let the return splash into the tank. This should help introduce a bit more o2 into the tank. You might have to try 1/2 dosing the med.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

I lowered the tank water so the filter would cause agitation. I also turned up the flow a little bit, hopefully this won't cause too much current in the 10 gallon for him, but it should definitely be a big help with the o2


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Seems even worse off this morning, still breathing rapidly and he seemed not strong enough as the filter current pushed him around a good bit. This AC 70 is just too big for the little tank. Hate to see him suffering


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

tcald429 said:


> Seems even worse off this morning, still breathing rapidly and he seemed not strong enough as the filter current pushed him around a good bit. This AC 70 is just too big for the little tank. Hate to see him suffering


You could stick him in a breeder. 

Is the affected area becoming more enlarged? Any further colour changes, growths, etc?

I am pretty positive it is a tumor. And if it is, it is most likely crushing various parts of its brain and spine. Perhaps this is what is causing the sudden onset/progression of very bad symptoms.

It is raised, so I doubt it to be bacterial or fungal, though that could be a secondary infection. I also doubt it is an edema (watery fluid collection in an area) either.. it would more a colour change than a very noticeable height change.

So.. basically what I am saying here is there is no continued treatment. Sorry.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

ionix said:


> You could stick him in a breeder.
> 
> Is the affected area becoming more enlarged? Any further colour changes, growths, etc?
> 
> ...


The area appears to have not changed, it still appears to be raised and only in that one location. Same color and appearance. Physically it looks the same since the day I noticed it, his symptoms just seem to be getting worse.

Sad to hear that, if for some reason he is still alive when I get home, should I continue to let him suffer or are there ways to quickly/painlessly euthanize fish? I was hoping it wouldn't come to this.


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

tcald429 said:


> The area appears to have not changed, it still appears to be raised and only in that one location. Same color and appearance. Physically it looks the same since the day I noticed it, his symptoms just seem to be getting worse.
> 
> Sad to hear that, if for some reason he is still alive when I get home, should I continue to let him suffer or are there ways to quickly/painlessly euthanize fish? I was hoping it wouldn't come to this.


Well, while it is good it isn't getting worse seemingly, if his symptoms aren't better, than we can safely assume he is still badly afflicted. 

If he is alive, than it is your choice how to continue delivering your care. You can leave him, and hope for the best. Or you can decide that you think it is in too much pain to bear, and you would feel better knowing it wasn't in that pain. It is up to you. 

Though when/if you think it is necessary, if he is less than 2", you can get a cup of watery ice slush and put him through to the middle. Don't watch, it is rather unpleasant. Though know in less than ten seconds, he will be gone, but toss it in the freezer to give yourself some closure. 

Otherwise, I'd suggest going to the local drug mart and buying a tooth pain reliever called the, "oil of cloves", "clove oil", and is $4.99CDN here in shoppers drug mart. about 5 drops into a 2g will kill in a night. It is a sedative that will stop respiration at higher doses. Use gloves (hands will stink for days, and if you're like me, will remind you of the dead fish).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Ice cubes in water cooled for 5 minutes or so.Place fish in cup of chilled water and he will pass in less than 10 seconds.Most humane method I've learned.Sorry.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

As crappy as this has turned out, I guess the positive is that it taught me a lesson and I now have a hospital tank ready to go for times like this, just need to purchase a smaller filter for it. Thanks for the help throught this, this is my first loss and its a real bummer.


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

tcald429 said:


> As crappy as this has turned out, I guess the positive is that it taught me a lesson and I now have a hospital tank ready to go for times like this, just need to purchase a smaller filter for it. Thanks for the help throught this, this is my first loss and its a real bummer.


 Feel better. It happens to the best. Just be happy that you did what you could, and that is way more than many would do.


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## lonedove55 (Jan 25, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Ok; if it is fungas your safest med will be methylene blue(this med is very safe for fish and filters , but will probably cause trouble with plants(it soaks into them)).If it is bacterial antibiotics are the cure and they are trouble for everything in tank.So I would get FOOD WITH ANTIOBIOTICS in it.Jungle is one brand that makes foods with meds in it.If you choose to use antibiotics in the water I strongly advise a QT tank as the antibiotics are pretty bad for the BB in your filter.


Sorry coralbandit but I have to totally disagree...I have a bottle of methylene blue right here and it clearly states: "Methylene blue is toxic to plants and is harmful to biological filtration, preventing nitrification and resulting in a rise in ammonia and/or nitrite levels. Treatment should be carried out in a separate hospital or other suitable container. Methylene blue can permanently color the silicone sealant."

If anyone does decide to use this, wear gloves to minimize staining of fingers/hands..It took a good week to get the blue off my fingers!



tcald429 said:


> As crappy as this has turned out, I guess the positive is that it taught me a lesson and I now have a hospital tank ready to go for times like this, just need to purchase a smaller filter for it. Thanks for the help throught this, this is my first loss and its a real bummer.


Sorry to hear the outcome of the infected fish tcald429, Dwarf Banded Gourami are beautiful fish and I have seriously considered setting up a tank with one myself, but have been hesitant as in recent years some available specimens have been found to carry a virus called the Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus (DGIV). Symptoms include lethargic behavior, darkening of color, and *tumors*, and infected fish will die within a year. Currently there is no treatment for this virus and it can be transmitted to some other fish species sharing the same water including Swordtails, Mollies, and possibly cichlids. This was taken directly from this site: 
Dwarf Gourami, Trichogaster lalius (Colisa lalia) Dwarf Banded Gourami

Very interesting read IMO. But I *DO* agree with coralbandit that using ice water to euthanize fish is as humane a way as any. And again, sorry for your lose.

P.S. Yes, I also learned the hard way....I now quarantine all new fish in a separate tank!


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

That is a good read and interesting. I planned on using the exchange policy at Petsmart to replace it, but now that has me nervous about getting another gourami from the same tank.


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## lonedove55 (Jan 25, 2012)

Can't remember which, but the last time I was in a Petco/Petsmart, they recommended some salt in the tank for dwarf Gouramis...they_* do not*_ need salt. You might try purchasing from online source such as Aquabid, etc. as it seems a lot of the fish sold there are bred by individuals rather than big box stores that purchase their stock from questionable fish farms and are mass produced/raised. I myself have not bought any fish online, but others on here have with good results. But this time of year (frigid) temperatures are not the best for shipping fish.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

lonedove55 said:


> Can't remember which, but the last time I was in a Petco/Petsmart, they recommended some salt in the tank for dwarf Gouramis...they_* do not*_ need salt. You might try purchasing from online source such as Aquabid, etc. as it seems a lot of the fish sold there are bred by individuals rather than big box stores that purchase their stock from questionable fish farms and are mass produced/raised. I myself have not bought any fish online, but others on here have with good results. But this time of year (frigid) temperatures are not the best for shipping fish.


Well, frigid temperatures aren't too much of an issue since I am in South Louisiana...my worry with ordering fish online is that I work 45 minutes from my house and would be worried how long the fish would sit outside on my porch before I made it home (not home until 6pm usually). I would much prefer to order online but wasn't sure how i could make it work with my schedule.


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## lonedove55 (Jan 25, 2012)

LOL..yea, I doubt the "frigid" temps would be an issue with where you live, except you would have to be careful with where they are being shipped _from_. Maybe have them shipped to where you work? That could be a possibility, but then again, they'd still be sitting at your workplace until you got off, then the long trip home.


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