# Zero ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate - should I supplement or no?



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

My plants aren't getting enough nitrogen!

I've been holding off on dosing KNO3 for awhile now, and have been dosing KH2PO4 (phosphates), K2SO4 (potassium and sulfates), Plantex CSM+B (traces and iron), Flourish Excel (mainly so I can get rid of the stuff and not worry about it) and Flourish Iron (for ferrous gluconate and chelated iron). Tested my water yesterday and found I had zero NH4, NO2-, NO3-, KH of 8 degrees, GH of 6 degrees, phosphates at 4 ppm, and 0.5 ppm iron. The phosphates are really high and the nitrates are zero, leading me to believe I should dose KNO3 again, but at the same time, I've heard shrimp (of which I'm trying to breed RCS) don't like nitrates or phosphates.

What should it be? Should I limit my plant growth, or should I ruin the water quality as it pertains to shrimp? Currently battling a case of brown beard algae due to high light and CO2 levels, but the shrimp are reducing the amount more and more each day.

Bottom layer is 2" sphagnum peat moss for the KH and GH buffering, so there's not much I can do there or want to do. CO2 by drop checker is green, elevating to greenish-yellow at night since I don't turn it off, 4 bps with 100% diffusion into a 29 gallon with a very heavy plant load and minimal livestock population.

Any advice would be appreciated!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I would go ahead and dose it. My shrimp are fine with dosing up to 10ppm and I have to dose it 3 times a week.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Hello gtm. Wow! You lost me. Your post sounds like one of my highschool chemistry classes. I didn't think fertilizing aquarium plants could be so involved. I'd be totally stressed if I had to keep track of everything you're having to deal with in your planted tank.

I have several large, well planted and heavily stocked tanks and have just two liquid plant ferts I use. One has the standard nutrients for the plants and one is a carbon source. I currently use Yamato Green as the standard and Flourish Excel for carbon.

I found out some time ago, that plants are like anything else living, they don't do well if they eat the same diet all the time. So, about every few months, I change the standard fert. I keep the Flourish Excel for the most part, but dose a little Cidex from time to time. Thought about going high tech at some point, but this is way out of my league.

Good luck with the chemistry project though.

BBradbury


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Actually dosing dry ferts aren't that hard, With liquid ferts you have to make sure its dosing everything you need and does get somewhat costly. 

For about $25 a year you can buy all the dry ferts you need. You can find more info on dry ferts at 
Welcome To The Home Of The Best Aquarium Regulator


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Even my advice? *r2

I really can't help but it does seem 4ppm phosphates and 0 nitrogen is outta balance.

I can't help because I don't do any dosing except a very little amount of iron (ferris gluconate).

What I do do when i get algae is to kill the lights and stop feeding until the tank clears. then resume with less lighting and feeding so the tank stays clear and algae is held at bay.

I guess a lot wouild alse depend on what plants but then I feel your knowledge/experience would indicate you have chosen the correct plants.

You kh and gh seems ok but mine are 4 dkh and 9 dgh. close enough.

I also don't breed shrimp and have a heavier fish load.

So all in all can't help but keep us posted on how it works out.

my .02


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

susankat said:


> Actually dosing dry ferts aren't that hard, With liquid ferts you have to make sure its dosing everything you need and does get somewhat costly.
> 
> For about $25 a year you can buy all the dry ferts you need. You can find more info on dry ferts at
> Welcome To The Home Of The Best Aquarium Regulator


Hello Susan. Never thought about dry ferts. My fertilizer costs are farily low, since I dose only two to three times per week when I need to top off the tanks. The fish take care of their share of the job of fertilizing. The Yamato Green is very balanced and the expense is reasonable considering the amount I use. The Flourish Excel is a little pricey, but I alternate it with Cidex which is a little more concentrated and you can get a gallon for about $30.00. A gallon will last more than a year. Pretty cheap really.

BBradbury


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

With 47 tanks liquid ferts aren't economical but the dry ferts last me over a year.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Higher light and CO2 can drive the need for more nutrients. If your tanks are all low-tech, I could see getting away with justa couple of basic liquid ferts.

Excel should take out the brush algae if you overdose it a little. Bump up your CO2 and it may help also.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

susankat said:


> With 47 tanks liquid ferts aren't economical but the dry ferts last me over a year.


Susan. OK. I think I can kind of see your point.

BBradbury


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Small amounts of phosphates are ok, but they're bad for water down the road. it will precipitate calcium out of your water decreasing your KH and GH levels and making it difficult for plants, fish and inverts to use the calcium effectively. I've read iron should be about 0.1ppm for safe levels so possibly too high for what i've read, could be different though. I've read that having 10ppm of nitrates work for a good level for plants, fish, and shrimp. I have about 10-20 in my tank continuously and my shrimp do just fine (although they're amano and not breeding). 
So, you could have the nitrates decreased for a period of time to help reduce the BBA which will slow the growth of the plants until you feel like you've got enough of the BBA. Then you can bring up the nitrates to help the plants begin to grow again. 
Next, you can use Flourish for your nutrients and dose a full cap twice a week to help bring those back up. Flourish does have iron in it and with the level you have, you may want to stop dosing with Flourish Iron until it comes down a little. You could also add some calcium into the tank, its supposed to help plants with cell processes. Bring up the nitrates to about 5ppm and see how things go.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

@ beaslbob - I just discovered 324mg ferrous gluconate dietary supplement pills at the drug store. By my calculations, 33 pills x 324mg ~= 10,000mg/L (which is the concentration listed on the bottle of Flourish iron), so I whipped up a liter of the stuff. Should I be worried about any of the other compounds in the solution that were in the pills? (such things as wax, Blue 40 Lake, corn syrup, etc.)

And I'd rather have some algae and fresh ruffage for my shrimp rather than kill it all off. Especially because I have about 30 babies on the way in my breeder tank 

@ phys - Thanks for the advice! Where can I get some calcium supplement?


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

just find some caclium carbonate or something from the LFS. doesnt take much, it will raise your GH a bit though.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> @ beaslbob - I just discovered 324mg ferrous gluconate dietary supplement pills at the drug store. By my calculations, 33 pills x 324mg ~= 10,000mg/L (which is the concentration listed on the bottle of Flourish iron), so I whipped up a liter of the stuff. Should I be worried about any of the other compounds in the solution that were in the pills? (such things as wax, Blue 40 Lake, corn syrup, etc.)
> 
> And I'd rather have some algae and fresh ruffage for my shrimp rather than kill it all off. Especially because I have about 30 babies on the way in my breeder tank


I'm not as calculating as you. I just dissolve a tablet in an old soda bottle then dose a capful each week. For the reef tank that is low enough to prevent iron starvation but no high enough to affect corals. I also add some to the fw tanks also. Not they needed it as they were dong fine before.


> @ phys - Thanks for the advice! Where can I get some calcium supplement?



How about epsom salts to increase GH?

For calcium supplement try calcium chloride which is an ice melter for roads and is also used to speed hardening of concrete (redi mix places). and"shock" for swimming pools (check ingredients).

You also might try calcium nitrate which is available at some feed and seed stores.

But then why not just try not dosing the phosphates and see what happens?

Killing the lights to kill off the algae also returns nitrates for the plants.

my .02


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> 1. I'm not as calculating as you. I just dissolve a tablet in an old soda bottle then dose a capful each week. For the reef tank that is low enough to prevent iron starvation but no high enough to affect corals. I also add some to the fw tanks also. Not they needed it as they were dong fine before.
> 
> 2. How about epsom salts to increase GH?
> 
> ...


1. Good to hear!

2. +5, hadn't thought of that, but is my GH (6 degrees) that low?

3. The ice melter they use around here has some other chems in it I don't like, but shock sounds like a good idea, and there's plenty of IFA and other feed and seed places around here for calcium nitrate.

4. I cut off the phosphate till the concentration lowers, then I'll resume at a lower dose.

5. Didn't know about lights off returning nitrates to plants - how does that work?

6. As always 

Thanks everybody! \^.^/


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> 1. Good to hear!
> 
> 2. +5, hadn't thought of that, but is my GH (6 degrees) that low?


I don't know but my kh is lower then my gh (4 and 9 degrees)


> 3. The ice melter they use around here has some other chems in it I don't like, but shock sounds like a good idea, and there's plenty of IFA and other feed and seed places around here for calcium nitrate.


 good to check ingredients. also check with local reef clubs. there is a DIY calcium/alk/magnesium methods where you buy the products in bulk. Like 50 pounds bags for $20 or so. I'm sure someone would not mind just giving you a small amount of calcium chloride or magnesium chloride


> 4. I cut off the phosphate till the concentration lowers, then I'll resume at a lower dose.
> 
> 5. Didn't know about lights off returning nitrates to plants - how does that work?


What can happen is the tank becomes nitrate starved (as you suspect) and cyano bacteria blooms which can get its nitrogen from the nitrogen gas in the water as opposed to ammonia/nitrates. by killing off the cyano it returns nitrates to the water. Kinda like the cyano consumes the gas then dies off returning nitrates for the plants.


> 6. As always
> 
> Thanks everybody! \^.^/


my .02 and a welcome


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> my kh is lower then my gh (4 and 9 degrees)


I think my KH is elevated because of the peat moss bottom layer and the fact I'm dosing Flourish (mainly to get rid of it faster - I can't justify just throwing it out).


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

a general kh test off a strip or other testing material gives you the overall kh. you may be either low in some essential carbonates even though it says your kh is just right.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I think my KH is elevated because of the peat moss bottom layer and the fact I'm dosing Flourish (mainly to get rid of it faster - I can't justify just throwing it out).


My tanks with play sand only has both kh and gh rise over years. And to very high levels.

But with peat moss in the substrate kh and gh stay at 4 and 9 degrees for years.

I think the kh 1) is not all that high) and 2) is not elevated by the peat moss but rather the opposite.


my .02


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