# Things newbie's should know about cycling?



## aconrad (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, thought there should be a thread about it. As im in no way an expert in cycling, though im not sure what an expert would look like. I know what works for me, and i wanna know what works for you! I have a pretty basic way to cycle, i use fish. I either use a betta, or a bichir. These fish to me seem very hardy, and both breathe air (only if necessary with bichirs). I take about 20% of the water from another tank, and I use filter media from another tank if possible. Bettas are really the easiest fish to cycle a small tank with because they can go into a bowl if they dont suit your tank later on! 

So, share your experiences with cycling. Your how-to's or your how-not-to's.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I like the idea of your thread title and believe there should be a sticky thread in the "new to the..." forum. It is great that people new to any of this come and ask their questions and get all fresh new answers (I was one of them not too long ago), but it would still be nice to have one place to start.


----------



## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

Don't waste your lights during the cycling, do weekly water changes during this time, & do not use fish, IMO.

Cycling is not a race. Planning out your 'scaping and/or fish stocking list (if you haven't already done so) is a great thing to do while your tank is cycling.


----------



## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*I say pour in ammonia and wait for the nitrites and nitrates *


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Things Newbies should know about a new tank:

1.) Do not buy fish on the same day you buy the tank....even if you cycle with fish. Patience is key when cycling and in the end, taking your time will pay off. Set up your tank, fill it, and let thefilter run and make sure your tank is clear before adding fish. If not you can vaccum out all the water and start again. Sometimes gravel is really dusty and it is easier to just "restart".

2.) Tank cycling refers to a natural process that every closed system has to go through in order to sustain aquatic life. This usually takes 2-4 weeks.

3.) Cycling itself, refers to the natural growth order of bacteria and break down of wastes. This breakdown starts with the addition of ammonia either by a bottled chemical or by animal waste. A species/s of bacteria will begin to populate your tank and bloom as it breaks down the ammonia, which then gets converted to nitrite. Another species/s of bacteria begins to populate the tank and further breaks down the nitrite to nitrate. Each bloom takes about 1-2 weeks. 

4.) Nitrate will continue to rise in a closed system like a tank so it needs to be removed via plants, water changes, or a combination of the 2. This is why we continue to do water changes on an established tank!

5.) Cycling can be started by using starter fish, pure ammonia, or even by adding one's urine to your tank. If using fish you need to use hardy fish and I would suggest 1/10 the final stocking amount. Larger tanks require more fish or larger fish. Ammonia levels and nitrite levels should be monitored during this time and water changes should occur whenever you see ammonia or nitrite going up. Changing ~25% is a good amount to start with.

6.) Cycling time can be dramatically reduced if you use old filter media, gravel, or plants from an established tank. You may not even see a rise in ammonia or nitirite.

7.) During cycling you may notice your tank turn milky. This is natural and is the bacteria bloom I mentioned above.

8.) Treating a tank for disease can destroy your benefical nitrifying bacteria causing a spike in either ammonia, nitirite or both. For this reason many people move sick fish to a seperate tank when possible. Others try more natural fixes like salt, UV sterilizers, or raising the temp when possible.

9.) Most city water contains toxic chemicals like ammonia and chlorine in the form of chloramines. Make sure you treat this water with a tank additive that can neutralize both or let the water sit for a few days. This tank additive can be used after treatment of fish to help neutralize toxic chemicals and can be used on new tanks when cycling is still taking place to lower the toxicity level...but don't rush nature.

10.) Overfeeding, undercleaning, and over stocking with fish can also give you a spike in ammonia and nitrite, even in an established tank. Do not feed more than the fish will eat in 1-2 min. Do not let any sink to the bottom unless you have bottom feeders. Clean the mulm off the top of the gravel so that the bacteria on your gravel can get oxygen. Vacuuming your gravel will not get rid of the benefical bacteria....they stick tightly. 

*EDIT:* Ok adding more info about *Dechlorinators*:

- If you are using city water, use a dechlorinator lik Prime or AmQuel plus. 
- You want something that will detoxify both chlorine and chloramines. If it only treats chlorine then the amine part will still be in your water and amine is actually ammonia! 
- This should be added to every water change unless you are letting your water sit for a day or 2. This naturally detoxifies the chlorine.
- Put the dechlorinator in the tank directly or in a bucket if you do bucket changes. Most come with slime coat and other chemicals that help your fish on top of their primary function.
- Some dechlorinators will detoxify ammonia, nitrites, and other heavy metals. This is useful if your levels are already high for whatever reason. This along with constant water changes and water testing is recommended to lower the toxicity. Do not just treat with the dechlorinator and ignore water changes!
- Some dechlorinator will not affect your chemical readings. This is good! Even though they are making it safe for your fish, you still want to know the actual level of ammonia and nitrite so that you can see when you are done cycling!

...hope this helps!~


----------



## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

I cycle my tanks with either zebra danios or giant danios depending on the size of the tank. IMO its easier to cycle a bigger tank cuz the fish can muck the water less.


----------



## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

OMG has anyone ever cycled with human urine?


----------



## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> OMG has anyone ever cycled with human urine?


*Yep, cycle my restroom 2-3 times a day.*


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Believe or not, I have heard people who keep a jar and add a little every day. They argue that urine is more natural than pure ammonia and that the species of bacteria that develops may be more suited for fish in the long run. 

I take no sides, and personally I use fish and plants to cycle. I just thought I would list everything I knew/heard about.


----------



## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

lol only 2-3 times a day platty, LOL u need to get morel liquids in your system


----------



## aconrad (Apr 30, 2008)

Woah, human urine? WHAT? Okay, I guess.. We all have our own little quirks  

Dmaaaaax, your post was perfect. That should be copied, stickied, and locked tbh.


----------



## f3honda4me (Sep 7, 2010)

Something to note that seems to be common. When cycling with the fishless cycle, once your ammonia is being removed quickly and your nitrites spike, you'll want to do water changes to keep the nitrites at a readable level.

My tank was actually probably done cycling a couple days ago, but because the nitrites were SO high, I had no idea until I did a 90% water change. Once I did that, my nitrites were at 5ppm and the next day were at 0.

I then added 2 ppm ammonia, and in 24 hours I had 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. I'm picking up my first stock of fish tonight!


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

I have heard that the presence of nitrites can fool the nitrate test, although my API Master Test Kit makes no reference to that.


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

probe1957 said:


> I have heard that the presence of nitrites can fool the nitrate test, although my API Master Test Kit makes no reference to that.


Not sure if some test kits do or not, but this is why you should test for both. If you have any nitrites at all then it really does not matter what your nitrate level is at, you need to address the nitrite problem.



Everyone,
I also updated my post above with more info about dechlorinators. *w3


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

Dmaaaaax said:


> If you have any nitrites at all then it really does not matter what your nitrate level is at, you need to address the nitrite problem.


The way I understand the point is, if you have nitrites, there is little point in testing for nitrates as the results will be skewed.


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Just go in order. If you have ammonia, stop, do a water change. If not, test nitrite. If you have nitrite, stop, do a water change. If not, test your nitrates. If you have nitrates over 20-30ppm, do a water change.* EDIT: *(this is oversimplifed of course)

Once your tank is established, however, I would only test for ammonia and nitirite ocassionally. Maybe once every 2 months or if you see a fish acting funny or notice an algae bloom.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ummm....nitrate test results will not be skewed if there are nitrites present. If the tank is on a cycle and reading nitrites, it is good to start testing for nitrates after a while to see if your tank is moving to the next phase.


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Ummm....nitrate test results will not be skewed if there are nitrites present.


I really don't know. What I do know is a lot of apparently knowledgeable people seem to think they will. 

The way I figure it is it makes little *practical* difference what your nitrate level is if you still have nitrites. If you still have nitrites, you aren't cycled. I don't need another test to confirm that.


----------



## f3honda4me (Sep 7, 2010)

probe1957 said:


> I really don't know. What I do know is a lot of apparently knowledgeable people seem to think they will.
> 
> The way I figure it is it makes little *practical* difference what your nitrate level is if you still have nitrites. If you still have nitrites, you aren't cycled. I don't need another test to confirm that.


The point is, that you can check for nitrates to see if your bacteria are indeed starting to convert nitrites to nitrates. In fact, this is what helped me discover that my cycle was actually done, I just had too many nitrites that it was making it look like the cycle had stalled.


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

f3honda4me said:


> The point is, that you can check for nitrates to see if your bacteria are indeed starting to convert nitrites to nitrates. In fact, this is what helped me discover that my cycle was actually done, I just had too many nitrites that it was making it look like the cycle had stalled.


No, that's not the point. The point is, there is considerable opinion that if you have a high nitrite reading, you will get an _erroneous_ reading for nitrate because the presence of nitrites will skew the nitrate test result. I am not sure that is right, but that is what I have read in my research on fishless cycling.

I will say this, 8 days ago when my nitrites spiked, I did a nitrate test just to see what it said. I don't have my notes in front of me but I did have a nitrate reading. I THINK it was 5 ppm. To me, that seems to support the contention that nitrites will skew the nitrate test. I haven't tested for nitrates since.

Now, to your point, my nitrites have been off the chart since I first got a nitrite reading 8 days ago. Night before last, I did a 50% water change. Nitrites still off the chart. Last night I did another 50% water change. Nitrites still off the chart. I think it is entirely possible that my high nitrites could indeed be slowing the development of nitrates. My plan is to continue to do 50% water changes every day until nitrites get down to a more reasonable level.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I saw the same type of thing when I cycled my last tank, almost to the tee.

I think that nitrates just show at a much slower rate than nitrites or the bacteria takes a little longer to develop. I remember having off the chart readings for nitrites and 20 for nitrates and the next day or so my nitrites were 0 but the nitrates had only climbed to a little above 20.

Keep doing your water changes to get your nitrites down. I know the point of fishless, or part of it is no water changes, but in this kind of case it will speed it up. I did 3 60-75% water changes in my 125g to finally get it under control.


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I remember having off the chart readings for nitrites and 20 for nitrates and the next day or so my nitrites were 0 but the nitrates had only climbed to a little above 20.


That would indicate to me that nitrites do not affect your nitrate reading. Interesting.



jrman83 said:


> Keep doing your water changes to get your nitrites down. I know the point of fishless, or part of it is no water changes, but in this kind of case it will speed it up. I did 3 60-75% water changes in my 125g to finally get it under control.


Well, at least we aren't/weren't changing water daily to make it tolerable for the fish. I will continue to do the water changes as you suggest. Thanks for the help.


----------



## f3honda4me (Sep 7, 2010)

probe1957 said:


> No, that's not the point. The point is, there is considerable opinion that if you have a high nitrite reading, you will get an _erroneous_ reading for nitrate because the presence of nitrites will skew the nitrate test result. I am not sure that is right, but that is what I have read in my research on fishless cycling.
> 
> I will say this, 8 days ago when my nitrites spiked, I did a nitrate test just to see what it said. I don't have my notes in front of me but I did have a nitrate reading. I THINK it was 5 ppm. To me, that seems to support the contention that nitrites will skew the nitrate test. I haven't tested for nitrates since.
> 
> Now, to your point, my nitrites have been off the chart since I first got a nitrite reading 8 days ago. Night before last, I did a 50% water change. Nitrites still off the chart. Last night I did another 50% water change. Nitrites still off the chart. I think it is entirely possible that my high nitrites could indeed be slowing the development of nitrates. My plan is to continue to do 50% water changes every day until nitrites get down to a more reasonable level.


I have read similar things, but I can't actually find any solid proof from anywhere that this is the case, other than anecdotes. And if we want to talk anecdotes, I measured nitrites and nitrates daily since I started the entire process.

The very first day I got nitrites, my nitrates still read 0. Nitrites spiked beyond 10ppm, and nitrates still stayed 0. My nitrates then started to register and climbed up over the course of a couple days, all the while my nitrites were pegged way beyond 10 ppm. So my nitrites never threw off my nitrate tests, and for me, were a good indicator that the bacteria was growing to convert the nitrites to nitrates. 

It is this very behavior that made me realize I needed to do a massive water change to get my nitrites to a readable level to see if the nitrates reading was indeed a sign. By the time my nitrates got above 80 ppm, I did about a 70% water change, and the next day my nitrites were still way above 10ppm with my nitrates at about 40ppm. So then I did a 90% water change, and lo and behold, my nitrates were almost nothing, and my nitrites were down to 5ppm. The next day nitrites were 0. Added 2ppm of ammonia, and in less than 24 hours, ammonia and nitrites were 0. I was ready for fish.


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

This is really interesting stuff guys. At least it is to my analytical and not very smart mind.



f3honda4me said:


> The very first day I got nitrites, my nitrates still read 0. Nitrites spiked beyond 10ppm, and nitrates still stayed 0.


That is what is interesting. I had a different result. I was just measuring ammonia, waiting for it to drop. Tested the water one day and the ammonia, which had been like 6 ppm, suddenly read near 0. I did a nitrite test. Nitrites were off the chart. Did a nitrate test, just 'cause, and nitrates read, by recollection, 5 ppm.

In support of your position that nitrites do not affect your nitrate reading, my API test kit makes no mention of it. I guess, between us here, it is inconclusive, perhaps leaning toward no affect.

BTW, I never know whether to say *a*ffect or *e*ffect. Yet more compelling evidence of my profound ignorance.



f3honda4me said:


> So my nitrites never threw off my nitrate tests, and for me, were a good indicator that the bacteria was growing to convert the nitrites to nitrates.


And for me, getting a nitrate reading the same day that I got a nitrite reading led me to conclude that the results of the nitrate test were skewed.

It seems to me I need to continue to do water changes to get the nitrite level down. My test only goes to like 5 ppm. Not real sure as I am goofing off at work and not at home.

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*My fishless cycle just goes what is expected. Ammonia spike from adding ammonia, then nitrite spike, nitrite decrease, then nitrate spike. This is without seeding. *


----------



## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *My fishless cycle just goes what is expected.  *


Nothing ever goes "as expected" for me. You ought to be around when I do plumbing.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

probe1957 said:


> BTW, I never know whether to say *a*ffect or *e*ffect. Yet more compelling evidence of my profound ignorance.


LOL, thanks for cracking me up *r2


----------



## f3honda4me (Sep 7, 2010)

I think the gist of it is that affect is an adjective, while effect is a noun.


----------



## AbadHabit (Sep 9, 2010)

Found this site. Explains more on the testing. Beginner: Water - 16k - *pc


----------



## JoeT (Jul 11, 2010)

I never did a water change when cycling. When my nitrites bottomed out i did a 90% water change, put in my plants and let it go. No problems at all


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I just stock the tank with fast growing plants. that way there are no ammonia or nitrIte spikes during cycle.


----------



## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

JoeT said:


> I never did a water change when cycling. When my nitrites bottomed out i did a 90% water change, put in my plants and let it go. No problems at all


You should have just put in your plants at the beginning. Chances are you would not even see much of a cycle. That is what I typically do.


----------



## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

Bumping this up with a question.

My new 10 gallon is about 2 weeks into cycling. Set the tank up and let it run for about 24 hours before going to the LFS and getting 2 Mollies and a Cory for the cycling process. I've been keeping an eye on the water, and the nitrites have started to rise, but only very slightly. 3 or 4 days after I introduced the fish to the tank, I tossed in a few Apongeton bulbs. Well when in the nitrite started to rise, two of them exploded into life, and have grown over two inches in the last 48 hours. The nitrite has pretty much leveled off since then at about 1 ppm, and has been for the past few days. The nitrate levels are still at 0 ppm though, so I know the cycling process still has a little longer to go.

Just curious; are these very small sprouting bulbs keeping the spikes low? Is this going to make the cycling take longer, or is it actually going to help?


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Can't see if you have other plants or not, but just those alone are probably not having much effect. Plants in general help stabilize your tank and usually make the cycling process easier and/or quicker. All depends on the level of planting you have.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

automatic-hydromatic said:


> Bumping this up with a question.
> 
> My new 10 gallon is about 2 weeks into cycling. Set the tank up and let it run for about 24 hours before going to the LFS and getting 2 Mollies and a Cory for the cycling process. I've been keeping an eye on the water, and the nitrites have started to rise, but only very slightly. 3 or 4 days after I introduced the fish to the tank, I tossed in a few Apongeton bulbs. Well when in the nitrite started to rise, two of them exploded into life, and have grown over two inches in the last 48 hours. The nitrite has pretty much leveled off since then at about 1 ppm, and has been for the past few days. The nitrate levels are still at 0 ppm though, so I know the cycling process still has a little longer to go.
> 
> Just curious; are these very small sprouting bulbs keeping the spikes low? Is this going to make the cycling take longer, or is it actually going to help?


Sure they will help.

But not nearly IMHO as fast growing bunch plants like anacharis.

Bulb plants get most their energy for sprouting from the stored energy in the bulb as opposed to from the nutrients, co2, and light of the aquariums. Plus they are generally slower growing as well.

So they will help but not as much as the faster growing plants.


my .02


----------

