# Appreciate any advice I can get



## perm_dogg

I know I'm the new guy so perhaps I shouldn't be requesting responses just yet but I'd really like to move forward to the next stages of my tank. Here are my questions; ( any advice will help)

-I live in Wisconsin so it's almost always cold for half of the year, what brand or type of heater can I rely on to maintain healthy temperatures in my marine tank?.

- I have a 36 g bow front, is my 3 stage canister filter enough? Do I want or need a power head?

- I'm using a 24 inch blue fluorescent reef bulb for lighting, now I know I need Led for where I'm headed. Is there such thing as good quality at affordable price with these things? If so what would you recommend I go with for watts and length?
- this ones probably gonna embarrass me but, what in the hell does "LFS" stand for? Ha ha. Thanks for any help anyone can offer.


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## Reefing Madness

LFS= Local Fish Store =)
Ditch the filter, its not needed, make sure you have at least 1.5lbs of rock per gallon, thats your filter.
Heaters, many of them out there to choose from nowadays. I like Jagers, quality heater. If your worried about temps, put 2 250w heaters in there, then don't worry.
Powerheads, yes, you need water movement. 10x your water volume for a Fish Only With Live Rock, so your tank would require 360gph for fish and 720+ for a Reef
LEDs, cheap ones. I guess you'd have to tell us what a good price for you would be. But I can throw out some LED units that would work, and you can choose from that list. Im a cheapo so I don't buy name brand stuff myself, so you might like that. The stuff I also advise has been used by many others and proven sufficent, and worthy.
New Dimmable 120W Aquarium Coral Reef Fish Tank White Blue LED Light Black US | eBay
2013 Full Spectrum Dimmable 120W LED Aquarium Light Coral Reef Marine Fixture | eBay
120W LED Aquarium Lighting Full Spectrum Coral Reef Growing Moonlight Fixture | eBay
24" 30" Aquarium 3W x 28 LED Light Reef Hard Soft Coral Ready 3100 Lumen New | eBay

No embarrasing questions here. Just answers, no worries.
Heres a link to a List of SW things you may need, with more links.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f67/what-you-might-need-start-your-41978.html


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## perm_dogg

Well, I see there is a good reason you're well liked on this site. Thank you for the quick feedback. Money isn't necessarily an issue, it's just the rate I spend it. I don't want to look like an "obvious" addict. Ha ha. Especially since I just purchased the canister filter. No filter?. Really? I wish I woulda joined this a few hundred dollars ago! Anyways. I'd like to slowly convert to a partial coral tank if that's even possible. I'd settle for some hardy ones that are easy to keep, but having certain fish is a must for me. I like the look of your 250 g tank. I'm rather fond of the purple tints on the rock in the proper lighting, thus the led question. I know I need more rock but I'm piecing that in week by week. I have a bunch of snails and crabs and they love it. I did however lose a clown fish and a mandarin goby recently and that was not cool.nfrom what I've read on these forums I believe my damsels are to blame because my parameters are very good.


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## Reefing Madness

The Coralline (purple on the rock) will grow with your Mag, ALK and Calcium being at proper levels. And those being
ALK- 8-12DKh
Calcium- 420-480
Mag- 1250-1350
And once you get it growing, you'll wish you'd not found out how to do it. =) Because it will grow fast and furious over everything, the rock is not so bad, its the glass that will make you pull your hair out.
Mandarin are tough fish to keep, and require a very mature system that has a ton of PODs in it, those being the only things that fish will eat, unless you are one of the lucky people that comes upon one that has been prepped for eating food. 
Damsels are lil evil critters, that you wish you can shoot on the spot, if you were able to catch em. just flat out mean dudes. And in the end, you will only have one of those also, as the dominant one will more than likely kill the other. If your looking at that type of fish, try looking at Chromis instead, there are quite a few peaceful guys to choose from.
Oh and you don't need LED to grow coralline in your tank, Metal Halides, T-5 HO and LEDs are a good choice, and you will be able to keep any coral you wish using those units.
Metal Halides and LEDs are the only lights though that will give you the water shimmer effect, other lights will not.


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## Raymond S.

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/common-fishkeeping-abbreviations-90.html
That link goes to a list of the abbreviations used here as some are not common in all places(other forums etc).
A high Watt heater only stays on long enough to do it's job...and since it does it faster you use roughly the same amount as running a lower Watt heater
for much longer. I use a Marineland heater at 75W for my ten gal and it's only about a year and one half but going strong. Just purchased one in another brand
because they were recommended but have yet to try it. It was recommended because of value.
Via Aqua ViaAqua Quartz Heaters Aquarium Heaters
Once I move up to a 55 gal which is large for me I'll get two of the 200W ones as that is how I've seen most people who comment that they have an even
temp in their tanks say they use heaters for the larger tanks. Since I build my own filters which are bio only/w no screen or pads I just put mine in the
filter and my filters usually take water from the bottom and discharge it on the top making the entire tank one temp. May change that for the 55 though.
The "Good plant" LED I've heard talk about on here is the Marineland Double bright.
Marineland Double Bright LED Lighting System Aquarium LED Light Fixtures
And I'm thinking that the 32992 would be the best for your tank on plants as it's almost as wide as your tank and has more lights than the one up from
there does...the 32991. I'll pass on those for now and perhaps in 5 years they will be perfected. The T5's will do when I get my 55.
I'll let the filter parts go to the more experienced members here as I know my bio only filter would not suit a marine tank nor do I understand power
heads etc so hope I helped...


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## perm_dogg

Well I have to say I'm truly thankful to have some technical feedback like this. I'm a fast learner and I'd like to feel like I can hold my own in a conversation, but clearly there is just way more to this hobby than one can learn in a matter of months.id like to run by you a few things I'd like to see survive and thrive in my saltwater aquarium over time. Keep in mind I'm not real familiar with the TRUE compatibility charts for all species. 
- I'd like to have a clown fish for my anemone (and my son ha ha)
- I like the mandarin goby and the red scooter Blenny
- I had a royal gramma and it was beautiful, but it died for reasons unknown(damsels?)
- and perhaps a flame angel.
As you can see I'd like my tank to end up having a bit of eye candy, but I also take the science and health of the biological system very seriously as well. What do you think? Is this dream of mine achievable? I'm extremely ambitious to do what it takes.


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## coralbandit

Your tank is probably a little small for most angels,but if you're still searching for mandarins search specifically for captive bred.They will be "trained" to eat mysis shrimp.This makes keeping them much easier ,because as madness noted otherwise they need a mature system(1 year old) with loads of pods to keep them fed and happy.
He was also corect about damsels,the LFS never tells you how hard it will be to get them out of your tank or how mean they can really be.


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## rtmaston

I use the eheim heater.it auto cuts off if you forget to unplug it during water changes if your water level gets to low or pull the heater out of the tank .you can also can calibrate it if its get out of calibrate.i really like the heater.


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## Reefing Madness

Your fish list can be had, with I think the exception of the Angel, which would be to big. The Mandarin and Scooter Blenny are of the same family, and both eat just PODS, now you cn do a couple of things to help this out, you can run a Sump/Fuge and buy the PODS and put them in the tank, or you can try just adding them to the tank. This can be done, as there are people out there that are doing it.
Live Saltwater Amphipods & Copepods -500 - Buy 1 Get 1 FREE | Reefs2go.com
Melevsreef.com | Acrylic Sumps & Refugiums


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## perm_dogg

Okay I looked at the links, I will say that I definitely want to avoid going the sump direction. It looks big, costly, and worst of all, ugly unless I hide it all. I dont want to upgrade this tank size. I may, however, go bigger in the future as an additional tank. That being said, I can easily live without the Angel fish. There are plenty of cool little fish I can add to make up for it, like a watchman goby or whatever. I'd like to know more about these Pods, they are just a food source? Why would I be afraid to add them to a tank?


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## Reefing Madness

No reason to be afraid to add them to the tank, its just another incurred cost that some don't want to have..the PODs when given the time will grow by themselves,.providided the correct environment. They like hiding in the cheato in a sump of hang on back sump, this is where they will populate, and end up in your display as food for your fish.


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## Sully

Difficult? Nah! Not if you think removing all your rock work down to the base rock in the sand difficult, lol. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt after that nightmare. 

:hahaha:



coralbandit said:


> He was also corect about damsels,the LFS never tells you how hard it will be to get them out of your tank or how mean they can really be.


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## perm_dogg

Oh I see! So these are living organisms? I was under the impression they were like a packet of frozen packed food. I understand more now how that can compare to the Sump. Also, the lights you linked me too seemed a little short. Do you really believe they can help my 36 gallon tank?


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## briandeeds13

Take it from someone who just began the SW adventure a few months ago. Take it slow and listen to these guys on here they have helped me out so many times. If something is in your tank and you dont know what it is take a picture and post it on ehre most of the time someone knows what it is and how to fix it. Helped me out a ton of times


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## perm_dogg

I just uploaded a picture of my 1st Marine tank. I also added my 1st piece of Leather Finger Coral today and it looks good so far. i hope it can thrive in my tank.


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## coralbandit

Tank looks good! I would get rid of the bubbles ,they're only going to cause a bunch of creep(dried salt on your frame and lid).


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## Reefing Madness

coralbandit said:


> Tank looks good! I would get rid of the bubbles ,they're only going to cause a bunch of creep(dried salt on your frame and lid).


Agreed. You are gonna hate those bubblers in short order, they are like runnin an open skimmer, they will collect garbage in the water column also, and pop at the top of the tank, and leave salt creep and uglies at the top.


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## coralbandit

Failed to mention in my first post on your fish choices,the royall gramma is a great fish,full of color and personality.I always think of mine like a barking dog as it opens its mouth to everyone(like it wants to bite them) but never causes any trouble.Nice fish choice and reef safe.You can only have one per tank or they do become trouble though.To each other.


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## perm_dogg

question; When I purchased a piece of Live Rock from the store I noticed it has some mucus like substance bunched up in a crevice on the bottom of it. Is this a sponge or something I should be worried about?


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## coralbandit

Sounds like it could be anything.Probably nothing to worry about though as it will probably disappear during the "curing" process.


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## Sully

Can some one direct me to his photo? I can't find/see it anywhere.


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## coralbandit

There in the photo gallery(pictures of tank that is not most recent live rock).


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## Reefing Madness

Sully said:


> Can some one direct me to his photo? I can't find/see it anywhere.


Aquarium Gallery - perm_dogg Gallery


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## perm_dogg

So I looked at some powerheads online. I was thinking of trying the Hydor-Koralia 425 gph. It had good reviews. Does this sound like a good choice for my tank? I think, for now, I am going to keep the canister filter running simply because I just spent all that money on it, but I did remove the bubbler. Thank you guys for that advice. I also would like some insight on this whole "1 year cycle" plan. I have yet to notice any real algae growth in this tank since I started it. Am I in for some unexpected changes or what? My water parameters are always right on so I'm curious what to expect.


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## Reefing Madness

Hydor is a good power head.
1 year cycle plan?? Never heard that one.
Tank takes roughly 6 weeks to cycle, then throw in your CUC ona possibly one fish. Wait 2 weeks then throw in more fish. After 2 months you can throw in easy corals. After 4-6 months LPS, after 9 months sky is the limit. Belive me, your corals will let you know if something is amiss. As long as your water parameters are good, so is you tank.


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## perm_dogg

I was referring to what you said about Mandarin Gobys needing a mature tank. I'm way past 6 weeks but like I said I have little to no algae growth or anything unless it came on the live rocks when I bought them. It seems to me like I need some sort of growths started to get the coralline going? Now, what is a CUC?


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## perm_dogg

And LPS? I don't think you meant local pet store on that one? Ha ha. Sorry I gotta learn this lingo!


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## coralbandit

CUC-clean up crew
LPS-large polyp stony
SPS-small polyp stony
I believe I made the mature tank comment,and the year is not set in stone,but more just a safe timeline for some of the more delicate things,like anenomes and say mandarins.If you can get the pod population up before that then it would be safe to try a mandarin.You will see the pods when you have enough.
Here are some of the abbreviations used in fresh and salt;

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/common-fishkeeping-abbreviations-90.html
It's always best to ask if you don't know or it's not listed.
Hydors are very good power heads by the way.


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## Reefing Madness

If your ALK, MAG and Calcium levels are in order, the Coralline will grow all by itself. If you don't have any other algae growing your system is in good shape, and your phosphate levels are low.
You can dose Pods in your tank to feed the Mandarin. Being as your not going with a Sump/Fuge they are gonna be tough to get in huge numbers unless you do dose them.


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## perm_dogg

Okay, next question. How do I "control" these elements? Do I want to use supplements? Do I need a reef test kit instead of a saltwater test kit? My tank is looking healthy, my leather finger Coral has started to express some red bumps and open itself up so I assume it's happy. Where do I go from here? Ha ha. Is this the whole patience part?


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## coralbandit

You need reef test kit so you can test for everything.The mag kit is a seperate deal(kind of expensive and the biggest pain of all test.)I use kent products right now.Super DKH keeps the ph up,Coral builder for KH(may not be available anymore so then look for continum{Made by Kack Kent}) and I use turbo calcium by kent.Kent was purchased by central garden and may fall apart(the company) as they (central garden) seem mindless.If there are other continum products available I've been told they are very good.Madness will tell you about other ways to buff.
My reef "eats kH and calcium".The pH and kH are closely tied;when one is low USAULLY the other is.


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## perm_dogg

Oh cool. Yeah I read some reviews on Kent supplements. Everyone said they work wonders, but some said your tank will do that to itself with patience. I take it you disagree with that? I am all about doing things the right way, but I'm also willing to cut corners if it's in a safe way for the health of the tank.


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## coralbandit

Changing water regulary can avoid the need for supplements,but if you have enough life in your tank and don't need to change water(all good on nitrates,after cycling) then you will need to supplement.


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## perm_dogg

okay time for a coral question. my purple leather finger coral started to open up and grow out these little red spots. I believe they are polyps of some sort? Today after work I noticed it folded a few of it's fingers over its center. I like to call it the palm because it opens like a hand. Can I assume this is a sign of stress or do they just do things like this? And, will these polyps continue to grow out significantly?


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## coralbandit

Although leathers are generally easy(the kind I'm good with) the can appear finicky for no appearant reason.I have 2 large "toadstool" leathers(among others) and one is always out,looking great and the other comes out less than it is in.It's not deteriorating or dieing it just doesn't act like the other.They open and close,change shapes, and do what they will(no where near the answer I expect from Madnness{his may be more precise}),but if it is not "deteriorating" then it is probably fine and will change and do what it it will from day to day.My "finicky leather" shows what would seem to be best appearance when my nitrates are over 20(but less than 40) and the other(always out) doesn't change with those changes a bit!


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## Reefing Madness

CB hit the nail on the head, can't get a better answer. Mine do the same thing. Only thing I woukd add is if it glazes over its shedding, and if its closed more often than open the lighting may be to much where its at.


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## perm_dogg

Perfect. You guys are awesome!! Thanks. I guess the obvious question that I hate to ask is; do I need to "feed" it anything individually? Like phytoplankton or something? I'd like to atleast try to keep it happy because it really adds good color to my set up and I'm thinking of adding another coral this weekend. Perhaps yellow. Any suggestions on a good one to try out?


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## coralbandit

If you like you leather and are still in the market for other corals(aren't we all?) then I will HIGHLY recommend green star polyps.I see awesome growth and regular behavior from them.They seem very hardy,attractive and much like leathers very undemmanding as far as corals go.I really love the 3 I have.


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## coralbandit

Nice!I was posting my suggestion while you were posting.Light is really all I give my leathers.They probably feed off micro stuff in the water also but mainly are photosynthetic(feed off light.)Same for the GSP.


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## perm_dogg

Green star polyps- Love the look of em. Had one in my hands last weekend and went with the leather for fear of stability in my tank. I think we will give em a shot this weekend. Im going to attempt to post a picture and heres my other coral question; do these things up and seperate or divide themselves? It sort of looks like it's trying to, but maybe it's just it's form. Also looks like i have some apatsia. Heard it's no good. How do i kill it? Boiling water in a syringe?


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## coralbandit

I use aptasia X to kill them(the lager ones).Peppermint shrimp will eat the smaller ones.
The leathers need to be "fragged",actually cut into pieces to get them to reproduce for us,what they do in the wild I am unsure of.So yours is just being funny and unless you see the making of a seperate stem then it will just get bigger I will guess.
You'll enjoy the GSP!
Mushrooms are really cool also.My elephant ear did split from 1 into 3!Anenomes divide,most corals can be fragged(taking cuttings) to reproduce(like cloning plants).


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## Reefing Madness

Softies frag themselves. If your going to do it yourself, I'd suggest doing it in a deep dish pan with tank water. After fragging a Leather corals leave it in the pan for about an hour to let the toxins leach out of it. Then put it in the tank, while running carbon on that tank for a few days to remove what toxins that are left from it. Leather corals can have a toxin war in your tank if you tick em off enough, or they get picked on by fish, only way to curb the toxin in the water is use of carbon.
I shoot Aiptasia with Lemon Juice. Shoot em straight down the stalk. Fill em up, if you get em right, you will see em start to dissolve right now.


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## perm_dogg

awesome. thanks guys! And on a bonus note instead of a question for once. I believe the rock that the coral came on is actually also the home to what appears to be a baby feather duster. It's wrapped around the rock underneath. I love getting free stuff from those stores!


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## Reefing Madness

Love Feather Dusters. My favorite one is the Coco Worm.


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## RobinFarm

Thank you


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## perm_dogg

okay guys it's time for question of the day. #1- Why is my CUC harrassing my new Coral? They just herd around it non stop. It doesnt seem to want to open all the way up and I think, maybe, this is why?

#2- CB, Madness, I'm really debating giving these pods a try. I can see how they can be benefitial to my tank in more than one way. My questions are, should i just swallow my pride and set up a sump system for my one tank? Is it vital for their survival? And- Will they even make it to Wisconsin alive? I assume they ship from a coast or something. Your thoughts......


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## coralbandit

If your CUC consist of hermit crabs,send them!(down the road).If it is just shrimp they are merely cleanig it and will leave it alone soon enough.
The pods really should arrive alive and they don't have to have a sump.If they are for a future mandarin just give them time to establish(a month or two) before you install their #1 predator!
Try finding frozen rotifers to feed the pods in your tank(your corals and cuc will enjoy them also).


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## perm_dogg

get rid of the crabs? I thought they were vital to the system?


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## coralbandit

Hermits are generally pest.They may actually cause no real harm, but in general will pester the living crap out of some corals.Some corals feed off of light and if the hermit keeps them from opening during the light cycle then they are literally starving them.Most of my corals don't even flinch when my shrimp climb all over them(10 cleaners,2 fire,and 1 coralbanded),but I lost 2 corals to hermits.They would pearch right on the coral all day.I would move the hermit to the otherside of my 75 and seriously in less than 10 minutes it would be all the way across the tank and at the top (in my coral ) again.They were banished to the sump until returned to LFS.They may also kill your snails in search of a new home.Snails are more important to the reef then hermits IMO.
If crabs catch your fancy look into porcelain crabs.They are filter feeders and bother nothing(they like to hide in caves alot though).


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## perm_dogg

Yeah I have a strawberry crab who I think is awesome, but he hides a lot. I can live without the hermits if i have to. I got some pretty cool snails. You have that many cleaners with a coral bandit? I heard they don't get along?


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## coralbandit

He don't bother anyone.He acts and looks like a bully ,but they have all been together for over a year.When he comes out acting like all that they just give him space.They can feel him comming because of his long feelers sweeping everywhere.They get one swipe of his feeler and they move.Your strawberry crab may be no problem(I'm not to familiar with them),but I'm fairly confident even madness will agree about the hermits(they're pest)!


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## perm_dogg

Nobody likes a hermit anyway!! Ha ha. Well then, I guess I will do away with the crabs this weekend. Looks like it's going to be a weekend of saltwater murder at my house. Oh well, atleast it's for the better of the tank's future (Kidding, I will bring them back to the pet store) Anyway, thanks for the help today, once again, I really appreciate it. I'm sure I'll have new questions by tomorrow!! Ha ha


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## Reefing Madness

coralbandit said:


> He don't bother anyone.He acts and looks like a bully ,but they have all been together for over a year.When he comes out acting like all that they just give him space.They can feel him comming because of his long feelers sweeping everywhere.They get one swipe of his feeler and they move.Your strawberry crab may be no problem(I'm not to familiar with them),but I'm fairly confident even madness will agree about the hermits(they're pest)!


Yup, I agree. I don't have hermits either, to risky. They gotta have food to eat, if they can't find any, they find corals.


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## perm_dogg

Okay Madness, I took your advice and removed the bubbler. I haven't installed the powerhead yet because it's on it's way via mail. Here's my concern; ever since I removed the bubbler, I am noticing this film floating around the top of my tank. I want to assume this is protein or atleast the reason one would have a protein skimmer, but I can't be too sure. Any ideas on this? Am I safe?


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## Reefing Madness

You are correct on the assumption that is a protein build up. Power head will disperse this. Yea, your safe, its just ugly. Point the power head towards the surface to break this up, when you get it.


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## coralbandit

Protien skimmers are a worthy investment.If you ask what is best for you I'm sure madness will have several links and you will not regret the upgrade.They really pull a ton of crap out of your tank.He's also correct with power head suggestion.


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## perm_dogg

Awesome. thanks guys. The filter I still have installed came with a protein skimmer. i'm sure it's nothing like one built specifically for the job, but maybe it will work for now.


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## coralbandit

If it runs on your filter(hob)than it is working but since your hob draws water from the water column and not the surface it can't function to it's true capability.Surface extraction is key to healthy tank,both fresh and salt.If you need (or haven't )activated it yet ,then crank it up! If it is running then it really is all about surface extraction.


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## perm_dogg

I believe I felt like it wasnt necessary when I first installed it because I was completely exhausted from all of the primimg I had to do to get the damn thing to work in the first place!! ha ha. I have the extension piece below the surface of the water. Let me guess here.....Raise it up so the surface water is just barely draining down the tube?


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## coralbandit

Raising up the tube may cause trouble.I checked post 1 and believe your still running a canister filter? If so check these out but search for a better price possibly;
Amazon.com: Eheim Surface Extractor: Pet Supplies
These draw from both surface and the water column and unlike the tom version(definately cheaper BUT) do not need to be manually adjusted,it always draws correctly.


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## perm_dogg

Yes I am indeed still running a canister filter. Only because I paid for it and it's literally brand new. The extractor on your link looks very similar to the tube assembly of my filter though. If a protein skimmer is essential to my tanks health then that's what I need to invest in. I didn't mean to scare anyone with my financial issues, I just like to be conservative where I can. I'm still blowing my paychecks on this thing week after week


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## coralbandit

I spend like I make it;fast and hard.If you die with a million dollars,what do you have?


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## Reefing Madness

Reef Octopus BH100 Hang-on-the-Back Protein Skimmer - Bulk Reef Supply
AquaMaxx HOB-1 Hang-On-Back Protein Skimmer
Reef Aquarium Filtration & Protein Skimmers: Eshopps Hang-On Protein Skimmers


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## perm_dogg

So after all is said and done, a guy needs to have one of these to run a good saltwater aquarium?


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## perm_dogg

coralbandit said:


> I spend like I make it;fast and hard.If you die with a million dollars,what do you have?


Couldn't have said it better myself!!


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## Reefing Madness

perm_dogg said:


> So after all is said and done, a guy needs to have one of these to run a good saltwater aquarium?


I only pick the best for people to use. And yes, its a really good idea to run them in tank over 30 gallons. Really should run em in everything, but most get away with doing alot of water changes in the smaller tanks.


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## perm_dogg

well that being said, I will do or buy anything to cut down on the amount of water changes needed to run my tank at peak performance. Thank you


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## perm_dogg

Picked up a Red Scooter Blenny and a Maroon Clown today along with a big rock full of Green Star Polyps. Sweet.


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## coralbandit

Very nice!
Enjoy.


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## perm_dogg

So assuming you guys do water changes atleast every once in a while, what would you suggest about changing water with new species being added? Would you change it and test it just before adding them or after they've been in there a while?


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## coralbandit

As long as you match up SG(no brainer)then you'll be fine changing water with new fish.They're on thier 3 different set up when you get them so the cleaner,newer and fresh with all traces from salt mix the better.
Once established most salts don't change water unless to remove nitrAtes or replenish traces.But it never hurts if done correctly.


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## Reefing Madness

Change your water? What the heck is that? Hmmm, Last time I did that was in January. =)


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## perm_dogg

Ha ha. okay okay I get it. So as long as my parameters are in tact i dont need to change the water unless I have an ammonia spike or something. And a protein skimmer installed?


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## Reefing Madness

Your corals and your water parameters will tell you when to do a water change. I Carbon Dose Vodka, so I keep my Nitrates exactly where I tell them to be, which is under 20.


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## Raymond S.

Here's one for the experienced people to answer...
In 3000 words or less...explain in enough detail to get a basic understanding of why a protein skimmer would not be of practical use in a freshwater aquarium.
I have wondered about this for a couple of years as I'm sure other have also so would you mind addressing this here for us to read ?


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## Reefing Madness

In short terms a Protein Skimmer is called a Foam Fractioner. It won't Foam in a FW tank.


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## perm_dogg

Okay my friends, I've found myself stuck between a rock and a hard place. My girlfriend and I have been going back and forth on this skimmer thing all week. She strongly believes we dont need one and says she had very healthy tanks in the past and never used one. I also did some research online. From what I've heard and read I believe we should have gotten a protein skimmer instead of a canister filter in the first place! But since it's too late for that, my newest concern is wondering if the "skimmer' that's supposedly built into my canister filter would be good enough. I don't want to do water changes once a week if I can help it and, from what I understand, that protein build up can get dangerous quick. I know every tank and every situation is going to be different, but come on! I need the fish to survive in this thing. ha ha. Anyone? Madness? CB? Clear this up for me once and for all will ya?


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## coralbandit

It's a % of waterchange every week(probly) or a protien skimmer.They really are one of the most important,and useful pieces of equipment in SW.Sorry for her not thinking you need it,but you really shoud get one (madness will list great ones)and when both of you see and smell the crap they pull out of your water ,you won't be sorry.They really do give superior water quality as compared to going without.


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## perm_dogg

And I strongly believe it will produce great results. But have you seen or heard of thease 3 stage canister filters having a protein skimmer built into the shaft? mine does. is it a type of sales pitch? (worthless) or could it be the best of both worlds?


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## coralbandit

I have not seen the filter you speak of,but does it have a scum cup to remove the skimmate?It may really work if it removes the stuff.


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## perm_dogg

SunSun HW-302 3-Stage External Canister Filter, 264 gph

This is the exact one I purchased if you care to see what i'm working with. As far as knowing if it works well brings me to one of my past posts where I said I'm not sure if the top of the "skimmer" is suppose to be flush with the surface and I believe it was you who told me that may cause more harm than good.


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## coralbandit

ok is this your filter;
SunSun HW-302 3-Stage External Canister Filter, 264 gph Good Deal.
The intake with the star strainer 90'd off of it is a skimmer(surface)and useful.
The filter does not however have a protien skimmer in it.I really didn't think it did as canisters are under pressure and adjusting flow on protien skimmers is crucial.
So you should probly get a skimmer that madness recommends.
It will be a seperate piece of equipment to itself and probly need a pump to feed it.Without a sump you're going to be looking at HOB skimmers.


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## perm_dogg

That is exactly what I wanted to hear!! Thank you for clearing that up. I believe Madness already gave me a link to a few. Last question of the day then, (in the unlikely event Madness didn't consider my tank size) what size protein skimmer is necessary for 36 gallons? I'd like to go a bit bigger if it's okay to just incase I upgrade to a 55 gallon (which is looking promising)


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## coralbandit

Perma link 63 on this thread are madness suggestions.The last two are larger(handle more volume) than the first and the third one is actually two the second being rated for upto 100 gallons.It is always best in any case to get a protien skimmer rated at 2x your volume.
I'd go with #2 or the larger one linked in #3.
Madness may even have other larger recommendations as he and I are firm believers that there is no such thing as "too big of a skimmer",THE BIGGER THE BETTER!For real.I think the one I use on my 75& 120 is rated for upto 350g.


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## Reefing Madness

perm_dogg said:


> That is exactly what I wanted to hear!! Thank you for clearing that up. I believe Madness already gave me a link to a few. Last question of the day then, (in the unlikely event Madness didn't consider my tank size) what size protein skimmer is necessary for 36 gallons? I'd like to go a bit bigger if it's okay to just incase I upgrade to a 55 gallon (which is looking promising)


Your killing me here, Killin me.


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## perm_dogg

Okay cool then it's settled. I will go with the 2nd one listed that Madness recommended earlier. Something tells me in the end i shoulda just listened to you guys and went with the damn Sump for all purposes, but i guess thats why this is the "new to the saltwater hobby" forum. ha ha. Thanks guys. Have a nice day. And P.S. My Maroon Clown is still alive!! I was worried.


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## Reefing Madness

Na, don't worry about the sump. I ran my system for a long time before I actually got a sump. the new HOB skimmers are the freakin bomb, you will be happy with it.


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## perm_dogg

Hey look, I trust your opinion. I just took it over my girlfriends remember? Ha ha!! Thanks man!


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## Reefing Madness




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## perm_dogg

Alright guys, my leather Coral is acting funny. It seems to want to lay off to one side and its not retracted, but it's definately looking.....lazy. Is this what you meant when you said your corals will tell you when you need a water change? (did a test yesterday and all was good) I tried moving him away from the light, but that didnt seem to help


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## coralbandit

The leathers are "funny".If you don't notice physical deterioration,then odds are it just has alittle attitude.If you notice part of him "melting " then something is wrong,but if test are good and it is just not"performing" then don't worry.Also if new to your tank (mostly lights)it may take a week to a month to adjust.


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## perm_dogg

okay cool thanks. Also going back to these pods im thinking of investing in. Knowing i dont have a sump/refuge for them to hide in right now, how do i keep them alive while i "dose" them into my tank?


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## coralbandit

They will also try to hide(maybe sucessfully ) in your substrate,live rock (good places for them)and could find their way into canister(may not be ideal).


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## perm_dogg

Oh ****. Help. Did a water change last night. My levels are all better than i've ever seen them except Nitrates spiked bad. What happened here? How do i fix it. (Tested my tap water and it had low nitrate readings. )


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## Reefing Madness

Gotta give me a number here. If they are under 30, don't worry about it. If above, then your going to need to do water changes to get em down. Just to give you a number here, 50% water change will lower your Nitrate number by half.


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## perm_dogg

I read atleast 80 and i tested it 3 times at different times. i shoulda never touched that substrate. im doing a 50% change right now


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## Reefing Madness

Yea pretty much stay away from stirring up or trying to vacuum the sand. Nothing good will come of it.
And, now that we've got you hooked, here is something that can further your water parameters.
Carbon Dosing: aka Vodka Dosing
Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com


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## perm_dogg

Okay let me get this straight. You are implying i should dose VODKA into my aquarium?


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## Reefing Madness

No, just a thought. I do. I keep my Trates right where I want them, no less, and no more.


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## perm_dogg

oh because i just happened to be drinking some last night ha ha. Can i ask what you keep your trates at if its not 0?


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## Reefing Madness

20


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## perm_dogg

okay, i was under the impression any nitrates were bad. i did a 50% water change and im going to let it settle for a bit then do a test


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## Reefing Madness

LPS, Softies, Zoas, Mushrooms, Corals of that such are ok with Trates, but we try and keep those under 30. SPS and Nems need cleaner water.


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## perm_dogg

well as you previously stated, my coral's behavior is what scares me. its laid over limp all day and I believe perhaps its the high nitrates making it do that. the 3 fish are as happy as theyve ever been though which really confuses me. i did just get my reef test kit in the mail today. maybe theres a different element to work on?


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## Reefing Madness

Fish don't really care about the Trates unless they get really high. Leathers lean over all the time, they are meatheads, to say the least, and if you have more than one, then they commit chemical warfare that you can't see, which ticks me off too. But, it could be the Trates, that will get em angry if they are up there.


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## perm_dogg

Okay these were my results of my full reef test. (Much more difficult than the saltwater test kit)
Calcium=480-500
KH=230
Phosphates=.25
Nitrates=20-40

So as far as I can tell everything looks alright except the Nitrates may still be just a little high. Any comments to add to these results or should I be safe for now? And One LAST question about the protein skimmer,(I apologize) you mentioned that I should aim my powerhead towards the surface to break that film up. Well my question is at what point do I decide the importance of this unit? If I will always have a thin layer of Protein to break up, do I want this on such a small tank or over time does it get a lot thicker and dangerous leading up to the purpose of such a device? Or does my setup the way I have it not pose a serious threat? I'll probably get it either way, it's just the decision of WHEN I purchase it I'm concerned about.


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## Reefing Madness

Once you see the skimmer working, your question about weather or not its worth having will answer itself.
Nitrates are a bit up there. If your API tests out red, yup, not a good thing.
Calcium is high, try not to let it go above 460
Alk is sitting right above 12dKH.
Phosphates a bit high also, but won't tick off soft corals.


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## perm_dogg

the more I read, the more it seems like this Canister filter is not only worthless, it actually creates a nitrate spike. and rinsing it out every few days is no better than doing water changes! how can i tune in these readings to safer levels? Should i do 50% water changes everyday here or what? It will probably be a week or 2 before I can get the protein skimmer so I need a quick fix to get by until then.


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## Reefing Madness

50% water change will knock down the Trates really good. You'll have to let the calcium level come down on its own. Where are you getting the phosphates from? Food? Feeding to much? Don't worry about the quick fix, Bring the Trates down, the others we can handle.


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## perm_dogg

I dont know what causes phosphates, but I definately dont feel i over feed them. I feed one half of a cube of frozen brine shrimp everyday and they still seem hungry. I do spot feed my flame scallop with some phytoplankton, I dont know if that would cause any problems though. I have some pretty good news too. I just fixed and, in turn, inherited a $350.00 LED light/moonlight system for free!! Also, I bit the bullet last night and purchased that hob protein skimmer you recommended, it should be here by next Friday along with my new powerhead. Things are lookin good


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## Reefing Madness

Nice!! Your system should look better than mine right quick!!


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## perm_dogg

Ha ha. Nonsense. I have 2 damsels and a clown, I'm far from your level. But I am going to give you a good test today. How high should I set my 48inch LED light fixture above my inadequate 36 gallon bowfront. (Tank is only 30 inches wide)And should I remove all plastic off the top and just let it stay open under the light or hope it shines through that tiny window they have for the flourescent? I have some perfect pillars running above my tank in my house so I can adjust. I just need you to give me a ball park figure here considering the light is twice what the tank needs


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## Reefing Madness

8-12 inches off the top, and remove the lids.


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## perm_dogg

okay. Thanks man. I wish I knew half the things you do. I appreciate it


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## Reefing Madness




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## perm_dogg

posted a pic of the new light set up. (Sorry her photo's a little bright)


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## Reefing Madness

You need to throw those pics of here so everyone can see your good stuff my man. =)


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## Reefing Madness

Holy crap. Whats that 3' off the tank?


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## perm_dogg

exactly 12 inches off the top like you told me. How do I put pictures on here?


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## Reefing Madness

To get a pic up. Click respond, then click go advanced, then in the tools bar in respond window, yiu will see a paper clip next to a smiley face. Click on that to up load a pic.


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## perm_dogg

How's this?


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## perm_dogg

Also I thought I'd update that my nitrates are down to 20, phosphates are closer to zero. calcium is still high though. (500) I dosed a half a cap full of purple up a few days ago so i assume thats what its coming from. Let me ask you, do you think it's safe to remove the canister filter until i get the skimmer or should I wait? I know I dont have enough live rock yet, but I will soon.


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## Reefing Madness

No reason to remove the canister yet. Won't huet to leave it on a bit longer.


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## perm_dogg

This is an Ocean *Direct* Purple Rock. I think it looks awesome. Also got me a Royal Gramma today. Of course it's hiding, but i'll try to catch a pic of it soon.


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## coralbandit

Tank look's good.Keep an eye on your pencil urchine as mine (after 6-8 months ) was found munching on my corals!Banished to the sump for the last 4-6 months he now lives in my 120 fowlr.


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## Reefing Madness




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## perm_dogg

I know theyre some killers huh? When i lost that engineer goby the sea urchin chomped it up in a day it was crazy. do spiny urchins do that too?


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## coralbandit

I've black long spined urchins in both my reefs and they are awesome.No problems with them.My buddy told me his pencil was eating his corals 3 months before mine went "rambo" and I laughed at him.
We have so little control over animals and as it turned out he was right it was eating my xenia like it was no ones business.
Look for long spined blacks ,They're well behaved(so far) and way more awesome in appearence!


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## perm_dogg

Agreed. My LFS hasnt gotten any since I started going there. maybe I can get them to special order a couple for me


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## perm_dogg

This picture doesnt justify how sweet those polyps look under the moonlight. Question though, should I leave the moonlight on throughout the entire night?


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## coralbandit

I keep my moon beems on all night ,but both my four foot tanks only have 4 led moon light(not my led strips).I cycle night,dusk ,day,evening,back to night.Never complete blackout.


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## perm_dogg

Dusk? Do you have a dimmer and a timer? how in the world do you do that transition?


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## coralbandit

Night is 4 blue leds(bulbs not strips)24/7 very low light,dusk is blue led strips timer #1,day is white led strips timer #2.
I use current true lumen pro and have 4 @4' strips on each tank(29 has 6 two footers)
Two timers per tank,each set of strips has there own transformer so they have there own timer.


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## perm_dogg

wow. that had to be expensive


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## coralbandit

There not the "cheapest "lights but should last 4-5 years and are energy efficient.The downside is that I have had 3-4 transformers die in a year or just over?They only cost like $40 so to me it is like replacing flourescent bulbs(which I thought I would never have to do again).The upside is my lighting is awesome and stays consistently bright,most flourescents start to die on day one and get dimmer/or lose spectrum until they're useless.
I buy them when they are on sale also so it's a little cheaper than what sites are saying right now.


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## perm_dogg

Nice. I haven't looked yet, but do you have any of your set ups posted?


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## coralbandit

Tanks and filters in my photo gallery.


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## perm_dogg

I'm really starting to wonder where your handle "Coral Bandit" came from, considering I only noticed some peppermint shrimp in your photos and you have so much diversity. Anyway, I also noticed you have a Royal Gramma, which I think you mentioned before. I just picked one up yesterday, but it will NOT leave the hole in the rock. I'm afraid for its life here. What do you think? Also, how close to the LED would you put the Polyps? Mine are on the bottom of the tank and Madness had me set the LED 12 inches above the tank, I just want them at the optimum level for growth.


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## perm_dogg

sorry, i meant cleaner shrimp!


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## coralbandit

You should lower your lights a little every week.Your stuff does need to be slowly acclimated to the higher power LEDS offer.What brand is light?
Your RG should be fine as they hide and sleep in caves and he will come out and be more visable over time.
I've got around13-14 shrimp in my 75 and maybe 4-6 in my 29.Shrimp are one of the coolest(and hardy) things in salt to me.I've got 8-10 cleaners,2 fire,a coralbanded,and maybe still a couple camels(not considered reef safe).
Lots of funny "stickies " in the tiki hut;http://www.aquariumforum.com/f14/whats-your-name-mean-479.html.
Check out you know your addicted when,also,pretty funny!


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## jamnigh

I just wanted to chime in saying, the tank looks nice. Love it! Wish I had the time, space, energy, and money for a sw tank


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## perm_dogg

Yeah it's become an expensive addiction to say the least. And dangerous too, if you dont play your cards right things die. I wouldn't be anywhere right now if it wasn't for Coral Bandit and Reefing madness. They saved my *** more than once. Ha ha. Thank you!


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## jamnigh

Haha I think I will stick to my guppies for now. Having too much fun breeding them  And yeah, those two are great!!!


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## perm_dogg

CB, I found this light that was rendered destroyed from the previous owners due to moisture inside the fixture causing the wires to melt. I rerouted them and salvaged it and now I own a $350.00 Marineland Led Moonlighting system for free!! I didn't know I was suppose to slowly lower them, at what point should I stop lowering them? And one more thing. Them ******* crabs have been killing my snails. Is it safe to assume I gotta get them snail shells out of there? Do they cause Nitrate spikes? I plan to keep the crabs and Damsels until I get my 55 gallon SW up and running to help test the parameters. Should be soon. Let me know what you think.


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## coralbandit

The crabs are killing them for the shell and they will probly eat the snail so no big deal to keep them in tank unless you see one just rotting.Be warned that will stink like nothing good in this world so maybe have a plastic cup with water to put them in as soon as you pull them out of the tank.STINKY BEYOND BELIEF!
Lower the lights 1 or 2 inches a week until they are on your tank.Sorry to sat the marineland leds aren't really that great.They're low power( 1 watt) in comparison to true reef capable lights(3 watts).
Eventually you're going to want(need ) to get rid of damsels and crabs as they will torture their tankmates.


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## perm_dogg

Yeah that's what I meant, I'm keeping them only long enough to start up my next tank. (Should be within a week or two) It hurts to hear that my LED isnt efficient enough, but it is what it is. I'll adapt and move forward as I always do. What I dont get is why crabs kill snails for their shells and then dont take them? Whats the point?


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## coralbandit

It's a dogg eat dogg world man!Some kill for food or housing,others because they can,there is no justice down deep!
Remmeber the pods we talked about in the beginning,it is my opinion that they are the food of life and without them we wouldn't be here(I don't eat them,but is a long food chain and it starts with them).


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## perm_dogg

I agree with that completely. I just know where I stand on the food chain and it's very comfortably at the top. ha ha


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## Reefing Madness

perm_dogg said:


> I agree with that completely. I just know where I stand on the food chain and it's very comfortably at the top. ha ha


Think so?? Hmm, sounds like you need a Lion Fish in there then. He'll let you know where you stand.


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## perm_dogg

Dont I have to be careful with lion fish as when they die they release a toxin that could potentially kill everything in the tank? (Considering he wont just do that for fun)


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## coralbandit

Reefing Madness said:


> Think so?? Hmm, sounds like you need a Lion Fish in there then. He'll let you know where you stand.


Think he was just saying they're real close to the top of food chain.
I do love the 2 I have in my 120 as this is my most recent tank set up and didn't think a "tough " fish set up would be as interesting as it is!
The tank basically is a "if you fit in my mouth ,you will" tank,with a couple of groupers(spotted panther,and miniautus),moray eel(snow flake),lionfish x2, an emperor angel,and an orbiculate bat.
These are some of the most "personable" fish with almost all eating directly from tweezers(except moray).I used the tweezers to train lions to eat frozen prawn,instead of live food as freshwater feeders aren't good for saltwater fish over time.The lions are really like dogs and always seem happy to see the "man with food" show up!


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## perm_dogg

Okay guys, I leave for Jamaica for 7 days this Saturday. And yes, I will be reef diving My question before I go;
Is there anything I should think about or remember to do to prep my tank before I go. My brother has my instructions to feed the tank 1/2 cube of frozen brine shrimp in the morning and before he goes to sleep, to spot feed the flame scallop every other day, and to change the lights back and forth from all blue led at night to dual light during the day. Any additions? Anything I need to worry about while I'm gone beyond the everyday risks?


----------



## Sully

It might just be me but when I leave, I only have the person who takes care of my tank feed half doses because no matter what you tell newbies to fish babysitting, they tend to get sucked into "the fish still look hungry" and overfeed. 

Also, not being crtical, but a half a cube twice a day seems like a bit to much for your current stock. I have a clown and a goby in a 20 and feed them a combo of reef gourmet, mysis and reef formula two (all frozen cubes) I feed a little of each at night and it takes me over a week to go through a cube of mysis and gourmet and almost 2 weeks to go through a cube of formula two. Just a comparison for ya. BTW, your tanks looking good!


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## perm_dogg

Ha ha. I can totally see that happening!! And you know, I've been waiting for somebody to tell me if I was over doing it. It seems like a bit much for 4 fish and a shrimp, but they look so eager for me to feed when I come into the room, they congregate around the surface and get excited like puppies. I will take your advice on this, its a safer bet to feed less I believe. Thank you. And Thanks to all of you who have gave me such compliments on this tank of mine. I dont even have a drop of coraline growing like any of you so i'm not sure what makes it look so good, but thanks either way!!


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## coralbandit

Your fish and such can easily go for 3 days without food.I feed my 120 fowlr every 2 or 3 days only(since all fish will grow large) and they are still noticeably growing.'Sully is right with caretakers always overdoing it.I've left all my tanks(before all the fry tanks) for 7-9 days with no feeding and had no problems.Even had in house "babysitter" for my dogs and cats, and when they asked how much and often to feed fish I just said DON'T!Came home and she said "I can't believe all your fish are fine,I thought for sure I'd have to call you and some were dying".
I now have auto feeder(for vacation only) and would strongly suggest timer for lights,but I'm preety sure you got rocker switch for day to blue.(you did so good rewiring you should seperate power on them and go timers).
MOSTLY ENJOY!


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## perm_dogg

My Protein Skimmer got here early!! (As it should for what you pay damn) Let's see just how awesome this thing really is.....


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## Reefing Madness

Rinse it out good with vinegar and water first to get the resin off the acrylic, or it won't work.


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## perm_dogg

you caught me just in time! It seems a bit louder than I expected. definitely louder than my canister filter, but not unbearable by any means. at what point should i remove the canister filter?


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## Reefing Madness

Give your Skimmer 2 weeks then you should be fine to remove it.
Do you have the air silencer installed on the air line?


----------



## perm_dogg

Yes I do. The instructions that come with it were a bit misleading in that they told me to have the extraction cup "lower" than the water level. I watched some videos and whatever and found it's suppose to be higher with the Oring holding it up so that you dont sit there and recirculate the dirty water back into your tank. I think I have it working better now and it did get quieter, I was just hoping for virtual silence. I also read that its not a bad idea to put it on a timer so it lasts longer and doesnt disturb the peace during the hours it's attractive to people. It makes sense. I noticed already this morning plenty of dirty substance so it's working already! Thanks for the recommendation! I still cant figure out what 2 of the screws do. one goes directly through the silencer and the other one goes through the whole system, but holds nothing! ha ha. What is the point of these screws?


----------



## Reefing Madness

Screw in the silencer I have no idea. What skimmer did you get.


----------



## perm_dogg

the aquamaxx hob skimmer you recommended. i posted a photo yesterday in my gallery


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## Reefing Madness

Got ya. All the screws that you see, are for taking the unit apart to clean it up, remove the pump and so on.


----------



## perm_dogg

You're not going to believe this, I was just GIVEN more live rock than my tank even needs to be fully functional for free!! I'm just getting lucky at this rate


----------



## perm_dogg

Oh, and here is my Royal Gramma. I love this fish!!


----------



## Reefing Madness

Oh, now your just showing off.


----------



## perm_dogg

if there is anyone in this forum that loves saltwater fish and have never seen them for yourself in the wild. get on a plane or whatever you need to get to a reef. I will never forget what I saw this week snorkeling and diving in Jamaica!!


----------



## perm_dogg

Reefing Madness said:


> Think so?? Hmm, sounds like you need a Lion Fish in there then. He'll let you know where you stand.


I got the opportunity to swim amongst the lion fish and sting rays off the coast of Jamaica. I got pictures I will be sure to post as soon as I get them developed. Awesome fish though!!


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## coralbandit

Welcome back!Sounds like you enjoyed your trip.
When I was in the Florida keys you could stand on the dock and see thousands(10-100) ofdollars worth of fish.In nature it is sureal.
How did your tank hold up while you were gone?All good I imagine with 2 post and no cries for help!
Can't wait to see your pics!


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## perm_dogg

The Royal Gramma Sadly died the day I was on my way back. The levels are good so I only have the damsels to blame. They are done. I swam up close in person with a couple blue spotted damsels. Have you ever seen one? They are beautiful fish and I also caught myself a pink flamingo snail. That was one of the coolest little creatures I had ever seen in the wild on a huge purple hard coral. Seriously though, the diving on this reef was like acting in the movie "The Abyss" it was incredible. I seen brain corals the size of giant beach balls. I cant wait to get my pics back!! ha ha. Thanks for the welcome back, now it's time to get my new tank started


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## Reefing Madness

Nice!! Now ya need a bigger tank for the bigger stuff your going to be gettin!! =)


----------



## perm_dogg

Well you know me, I got me a free 55 gallon tank. When and if I decide to go even bigger than that, I will probably be into the making my own acrylic box hobby, cuz I dont find the store prices to be worth it. I guess we will see


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## Reefing Madness

If you plan on keeping a tank for a long time, I would not use acrylic.


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## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> Well you know me, I got me a free 55 gallon tank. When and if I decide to go even bigger than that, I will probably be into the making my own acrylic box hobby, cuz I dont find the store prices to be worth it. I guess we will see


I have a 55 gallon reef (it was a gift), but I honestly wish I would have started with something larger. More room for water means more room for error. The precision and accuracy demanded by smaller systems can be intimidating. That said, once one learns to successfully manage a smaller reef...it's downhill from there. And I'm all about do-it-yourself acrylic too. A properly built acrylic system will outperform glass in both looks and longevity.


----------



## coralbandit

I'm all against acrylic.Scratches to easily.


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## perm_dogg

it all depends on what size tank i look at. right now i have a 55 gallon and i didnt pay a dime for it so ill do my best for now. my family has close connections with a glass company. i bet i can figure it out if i really try. i also work at a fabrication shop so the stand and tank base would be very easy for me to make


----------



## Reefing Madness

Goby said:


> I have a 55 gallon reef (it was a gift), but I honestly wish I would have started with something larger. More room for water means more room for error. The precision and accuracy demanded by smaller systems can be intimidating. That said, once one learns to successfully manage a smaller reef...it's downhill from there. And I'm all about do-it-yourself acrylic too. *A properly built acrylic system will outperform glass in both looks and longevity*.


Oh no it won't. You'll be removing all your fish and rock to buff your tank out every 5-10 years, glass tank on the other does not need it. And Starphire Glass is almost as clear as Acrylic. So there is an advantage to using glass, the right glass.


----------



## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> it all depends on what size tank i look at. right now i have a 55 gallon and i didnt pay a dime for it so ill do my best for now. my family has close connections with a glass company. i bet i can figure it out if i really try. i also work at a fabrication shop so the stand and tank base would be very easy for me to make


I had a 5 foot tall acrylic octagon aquarium for many years that's still being used by my son. I ordered it from Sears in 1992. It looks as beautiful today as it did 21 years ago. I did learn the hard way that it scratched more easily than glass...inside and out. Luckily, the scratches also buffed out more easily than glass and buffing them never required emptying the tank.


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## perm_dogg

alright alright the results are in after my return I did a full test. Here's what i found;
Ammonia- 0
Nitrites-0
Salinity- 1.024
Phosphates- 0
Calcium- 460
PH- 8.4
Nitrates- *40-60!!*
what the hell is causing all these nitrate spikes? I have a protein skimmer,(and its working), I have a canister filter which I've rinsed once a week, I feed half a cube of brine shrimp every other day, I have plenty of live rock. Do I need to stop drinking all of my vodka and share with these fish or what? The clown and bastard, I mean damsel fish are still happy as ever. I need solutions here guys.


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## Reefing Madness

Solutions:
Bigger more frequent water changes.
Bigger skimmer. Or just let this one break in fully, its still new. Gotta give it a couple weeks for a full break in. 
You have 2lbs of rock per gallon? That's the necessary amount of live rock.
Dose vodka.
I dose. And haven't done a water change since December, I think. Anyways, my Nitrates are currently at 10, I just checked em for you. I dose twice a day, trying to keep it 12 hiurs apart. 
If you do leave and can't dose for a week, its not a big deal, you just pick up where you left off.
There ya go, plenty if choices there.


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## perm_dogg

Alright Madness. that's enough. Bigger Skimmer? I'm starting to think you own stocks in aquarium supplies. ha ha. im kidding. but i am not going bigger on a 36 gallon tank. I have maybe a bit short of 2 pounds per gallon, but Like I said, I obtained plenty to get there just have to boil it first. I'm gonna give the skimmer more time and try the vodka. I guess as long as the fish arent dead, I shouldn't complain too much right? Does it matter what kind of vodka I use? I don't feel like pouring some good Grey Goose in a fish tank if I can help it. ha ha


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## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> Alright Madness. that's enough. Bigger Skimmer? I'm starting to think you own stocks in aquarium supplies. ha ha. im kidding. but i am not going bigger on a 36 gallon tank. I have maybe a bit short of 2 pounds per gallon, but Like I said, I obtained plenty to get there just have to boil it first. I'm gonna give the skimmer more time and try the vodka. I guess as long as the fish arent dead, I shouldn't complain too much right? Does it matter what kind of vodka I use? I don't feel like pouring some good Grey Goose in a fish tank if I can help it. ha ha


In the short term, new water is the obvious route...but who wants to do that all the time? Not me. IMO, you don't need a bigger skimmer. It doesn't matter what kind of vodka you use but I wouldn't recommend dosing carbon until your new skimmer is functioning at full capacity, and that may take several days since it's new and your canister is likely hogging the dissolved organics. Shortly thereafter, I'd lose the canister. It's likely contributing to your nitrates despite the fact that you properly maintain it. I went through the same thing. I had a hard time letting go of my canister filter...my freshwater thought process just wouldn't give it up. With that, once you get rid of the canister and start feeding all the free organic waste to the life in your rocks, that life will flourish and prove more efficient than filter media. That, in combination with the protein skimmer's ability to remove nitrites before they become nitrates, is going to help. Give that some time, reassess the situation, and then decide if you need to add additional nitrate control. There's more options. 

In the meantime, consider feeding your fish everyday, small amounts, preferably twice. I won't list all the reasons why this is important, but there are many and they support the health of both the fish and the beneficial bacteria. The notion that it's appropriate to manage water quality by withholding food is absurd. Feeding fish daily does not automatically translate to overfeeding.


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## Reefing Madness

Man, I hate having to do this Goby. But, it does matter what Vodka you use. You cannot use any Vodka that has the flavoring in it. Gotta be the straight stuff. Other than that, the choice is yours. I use the garbage Vodka that Walmart sells, and can overfeed the crap outta my fish because I control the Nitrate values.
Goby, does have a point though, let the Skimmer take its toll first. But me, I'd throw down on the Vodka to be honest, its a piece of cake to do, doesn't take but a second to throw in 10mls of it and be done with it, kinda like feeding the fish, doesn't take byut a sec and your done.
*Feeding* - A derivative of vodka dosing is the ability to increase feeding for fish or invertebrates without reducing water quality. Since the vodka is essentially removing the waste products (nitrates/phosphates) from the reef aquarium, addition of extra food is welcomed if not encouraged.
*Vodka Brand* - One of the most common questions is which brand is the best. Honestly, it will make little difference on which brand is used. The most common response is to find the cheapest vodka brand and go with that. *Do not use vodka that contains flavor additives such as raspberry or mango vodka.* Additionally, industrial ethanol should not be used as a substitute as it contains denaturing agents that are toxic.
Read carefully.
Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

Now, as a side note. I wasn't going to wait a year for my Nitrates to come down, so I cheated and after a week upped the dose by 5mls, and each week it didn't come down i did the same thing. If you went by ones, it take quite a bit longer. If you are good with math, then going by Melevs tank, you can figure out where to begin dosing.
Melevsreef.com - Dosing Vodka to Lower Nitrate & Phosphate


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## Goby

It never occurred to me that someone would use a fruit flavored Vodka rather than straight Vodka. Yeah, don't do that.


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## perm_dogg

Ha ha. Okay, I may be new to this, but I wasnt born yesterday. I dont even put flavored Vodka in my drinks, let alone a fish tank. But it doesn't matter what strategy works best, as long as it works. I hate doing water changes so I will take the appropriate steps to get away from it. Madness, can I pull The canister filter now? And should I use it to set up new tank or go all natural?


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## perm_dogg

Nothin? No responses? That's unusual. CB, where you at man? I got questions here.


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## coralbandit

I actually just asked RM about his vodka dosing after reading up on it.He doses x2 daily.He has good insight in bumping up dosing more than reading indicates as it could take 2 months or more for the vdka dosing to take positive effect.I was interested,but think I'll pay better attention to my bio plastics.I know you're saying bio what?
If it works or not it is yet another piece of equipment(reactor and pump)to buy(say bye bye to money).
I'm actually considering adding another protien skimmer to my 75 filter as it has 3 seperate 29 gallon tanks in series,I could run PS #2 in second 29 and still never cycle water through both skimmers(first one pumps from first chamber and can be dischareged in # 3 to avoid going through second one).
If your main question is on pulling canister,I wouldn't yet or maybe even at all.But feel free to clean it or add chems(GFO or such).Most of your bacteria are in tank but the filter does do more then push water around IMO.RM isn't big on mechanicals,but I do really use filter pads and machanicals to remove debris and just clean them regulary.
Sorry I lost ya there but I know RM will check in sometime(he's good like that{one of the best}).


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## Reefing Madness

Go ahead and pull the canister if you plan on Dosing. And yes, go ahead and use it for setting up the new tank, that'll help a bunch.


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## perm_dogg

thanks guys, and I'm gonna ask a question I should probably just google to avoid criticism, but here it goes. The 55 gallon I received recently, was previously a fresh water tank and it has not yet been cleaned, should I leave it this way or scrub it out real well? I didn't know if perhaps algae on the glass could help or hurt my situation.


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## coralbandit

Salt and fresh are different bacteria so it probly won't help any to leave it ,but I don't think you need to scrub tank sterile either.The amount of salt we use in marine tanks blows most(all)FW stuff(bacteria) away.


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## Reefing Madness

Give it a quick once over with vinegar and water. Just wanna clean the glass up a bit.


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## perm_dogg

Okay, so with all I've learned up to this point, here is my initial plan;

-Clean tank with Vinegar & water

- Fill bottom of tank with Live Sand (instead of crushed coral)

- Set up Live/Dry Rock Platform

- Fill tank with well water mixed with Instant Ocean Salt for 24 hours. ( I didnt see anywhere around where I live that they sell RO/DI or whatever)

- Run Canister Filter until cycling is complete. (3-4 days?)

- Exhile those God Damnsels and Hermit Crabs to new tank.

- Wait an eternity before adding anything worthy of Marine Life.

Sound Good? Did I miss anything?


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## coralbandit

You won't be cycled in 3-4 days(and I'm sure thats not what you meant).As soon as it is right temp and SG send the damsels and hermits to report back!You really may not have to wait too long ,1-2 weeks.Just test every couple days and feed the "scouts"as mostly it is for the bacteria and not them!The live rock should help move you along with true cycling.
You're right on track though!
ENJOY!


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## Reefing Madness

If your using the correct amount of LR, that tank is going to take a bit to cycle, the filter has the needed bacteria to start the cycle, but no where what you need to take over the rock and make it livable, without ammonia. Or are you not using anymore rock? Or did I miss something? =)


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## perm_dogg

My plan was to put a couple fully living live rocks from other tank in with some dry rock. I'm gonna be honest, I'm still not even decided on which i will make a reef tank and which a FOWLR, but I'd still like to get the bigger one up and running no matter what.


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## Reefing Madness

Got ya. You'll be ok, the cycle time will be drastically reduced using all the things you plan on doing.


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## perm_dogg

Now THAT is some positive feedback my friend. Thanks once again guys.Ill keep ya posted if youd like


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## coralbandit

Keep it comming!


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## perm_dogg

Just for fun, I checked my trates again today, not much better. I think im right around the 40 range now. I read as much as I could on this Vodka dosing thing and I'm telling you as soon as my advil kicks in, we are going to discuss this further!! Here's a stupid question; Is there ANYTHING easy about saltwater tanks? Jesus!! Ha ha.


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## Reefing Madness

Yea there is. I don't do much to mine anymore, but clean the glass once or twice a week. Clean the skimmer head once a week, and feed the fish, oh and once a month check all the levels.


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## perm_dogg

I'd just like a logical answer to my nitrate issue. It's way too high and I dont over feed, i dont stir up the bottom, I have a skimmer now and I run it 24/7 I switch my lights on time, and due to whatever the skimmer does, i have to add water like once every other week it seems. doesnt that qualify as a water change too? It's like 10 pounds I've tried to lose for the last 14 years. It just wont go away!! ha ha. My poor Leather Coral is shrinking even. I cant bring myself to commit to the new tank until I have this one perfected. That's only responsible right?


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## Reefing Madness

Top offs are not like doing a water change. Water evaporates, the items in the water do not. So, its like this, your skimmer will keep status quo. You have to get the Nitrates down in order for it to maintain the level you want. So you must do a 50% water change to get them under 20. Then the system should maintain it.
My Trates were always high, I gave up trying to understand why, so I just dose. No big deal, and I can overfeed the crap out of my HUGE fish and not worry about the system crashing with high Nitrates.


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## perm_dogg

and you also didnt follow their specific rules on dosing right? because they seem to do way too much screwing around. ha ha


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## Reefing Madness

Nope, I don't follow instructions well. Especially when it takes 7 months to just see Nitrates start to come down. I did the math on a 180g tank dosed at 12mls. Then started mine at 10mls, and added 5mls a week until they came down.
I've told other members to start at 5mls, and do like wise, in smaller tanks, it usually comes down in a week or 2. Figuring that you'd be dosing daily on a maintenance schedule of right around 5-10mls.


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## perm_dogg

Could it be? I'm seeing some small purple dots on the front face of my glass. Is it finally Coralline time?


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## Reefing Madness

Possibly. Now the fun begins. SCRAPING THE GLASS.


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## perm_dogg

I enjoy the look of the coralline covered reef tanks, I'd probably only clean the front unless theres a reason i have to? i suppose i gotta buy some type of cleaning tools though huh?


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## Reefing Madness

Na, credit card will work for scraping.


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## perm_dogg

a little irony behind that brother. ha ha. good news.


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## Sully

That love will slowly disappear once you have to start keeoing the glass clean. *r2 I've been using a razor blade scraper, makes quick work of it.



perm_dogg said:


> I enjoy the look of the coralline covered reef tanks, I'd probably only clean the front unless theres a reason i have to? i suppose i gotta buy some type of cleaning tools though huh?


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## Reefing Madness

Sully said:


> That love will slowly disappear once you have to start keeoing the glass clean. *r2 I've been using a razor blade scraper, makes quick work of it.


Yea, I actually use a 4" blade gizmo on a stick to help me do mine.


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## coralbandit

Coralline covers my whole tank.I only clean front glass and soak hydors in vinnegar.It seems to have turned into plating coralline on many of my live rocks.


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## perm_dogg

ok follow up response; what is "plating" coralline. and also, when i scrape it off the glass, do i try to remove it or let it escape into the reef environment?


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## coralbandit

Let the scrapings go into tank,no harm in that.
The plating coralline looks like AOL Search
Kind of like a flat type mushroom on a tree.It really is cool on the live rock and unstoppable on the glass(I use purple up!).


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## perm_dogg

i purchased a bottle of purple up and put one recommended dose in. i did a test a few days later and my calcium was supposedly way too high. i havent put anymore in since. i do like the purple though. how much of this can my fish handle though?


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## coralbandit

It IMO won't have much of an effect on fish,just your corals.Being your well water, you may not need it.It took like 6 months before I saw any coralline show up.My 75 reef EATS dkh and calcium.Every week I have to buff my kH and calcium up.I use reef crystals salt which is supposed to be high in calcium,but my tank EATS it anyway.When I asked Madness why my 75 is so different than my 29(which is always fairly stable on kH and calcium) he said volume of live rock.Both tanks are still consistent today;75 eats kH and calcium,and 29 is usaully more consistent.I add purple up every week or so and don't really even measure just squeeze some in sump and 1 minute later whole tank is clouded.The purple up works to grow coralline where it settles as I understand.


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## perm_dogg

Coralline is definately making a statement in my tank right now. Sadly, I lost my clown fish after my trip to Canada so I did a test. Of course my nitrates are way too high still. I did a 50% water change and they were still at 80. I'm trying the vodka dosing this week because I'm out of ideas. I'm almost afraid to feed these fish because what else can cause such a problem with nitrates? my skimmer is working great runs all day and night(which I dont like) My leather coral shrank and hasnt changed in weeks. im falling apart here. ha ha. oh well i guess time will tell. maybe i need to remove the substrate and rinse it thoroughly or replace it with live sand?


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## coralbandit

Have you tested your source water for nitrates?I use purigen(by seachem) in all my tanks and although not an instant cure,it does help with nitrates and is rechargeable.I use the 100ml bags pre packed by seachem as regenerating is in bleach and water and trust their bags way more than average mesh bag.


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## Reefing Madness

if you start out at normal dosing, its going to take you forever to get the Trates down, unelss you do 50% WC every other day. I'd start out at 5mls my self, 2.5 in AM and 2.5 PM. Ir get a Nitrate or Sulpher Nitrate Reactor.


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## perm_dogg

Madness, are those numbers (2.5) based on my 36 gallon? and no CB I havent tried to test my well water if thats what you meant. I suppose I shoulda thought of that! I'll do it now.


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## perm_dogg

Yep, there are definately nitrates in my well water. id say probably reads around 25-30. son of a *****. so seachem stabalizes my filler/replacement water? I cant believe I never thought of that!!


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## coralbandit

so we get back into water,either RO/DI or distilled is usaully what I recommend for reef keepers.Most RO filters need decent pressure from source to work decently,and can't say if your well pump will cut the mustard?Distilled is available at walmarts or any drug store(walmart is cheapest).
If you have decent pressure(35lbs+) then an RO filter would be best for you.


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## perm_dogg

Oh my god I can only imagine with how fast my water already evaporates what it would cost to buy distilled. But, such is saltwater life. thanks guys. ill get to work.


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## coralbandit

Distilled will be around $.85 a gallon.If that is not pain enough then going to get it ,bring it home and carrying it in will.
A pressure gauge($9.00) will tell you what your source water pressure is(hook it up to any hose bib to see) and although $200 for a decent RO system seems high the economy kicks in right after setup as you will always have water and the filters are pretty cheap.I got my RO/DI from bulkreef supply.Spectra pure is another good one.
I honestly love my RO system and although skeptical(very) before puchase ,I wouldn't be without it now.I burned through a distiller a year(auto and manual) and finally had it when my $400 auto distiller burned out it"s element and the manufacturer wanted $175 for the replacement.Went RO and have not one complaint since.My house pressure is only 35lbs.The unit I got from BRS has pressure gauge and 2 HM digital meters to monitor filter usage,gallons and TDS.I got the 6 stage dual DI model and even added another canister for even better prefiltering as you can burn through the cheap filters every two or three months but haven't had to replace the TFC(most expensive part) yet.


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## Reefing Madness

perm_dogg said:


> Madness, are those numbers (2.5) based on


Yes


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## perm_dogg

Not sure if dosing the vodka is causing cloudiness, but out of nowhere, my water is cloudy. I lost my cardinal fish today, no idea why, but whatever, I purchased my argonite live sand for the 55 gallon today and now all I need is some distilled water. When i get it up and running ill post pictures cause i got a pretty sweet set up for this tank. im starting to lean towards reef tank over fowlr because im sick of fish dieing on me!!


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## Sully

Purigen is great. If you want to get into overkill, you could also run Chemipure elite (if you can find it) or regular chemipur. I run both those in my HOB filter and haven't had any ossues with nitrates or phosphates so far. Change em out about every 30-45 days and rinse out the purigen filter every water change.



coralbandit said:


> Have you tested your source water for nitrates?I use purigen(by seachem) in all my tanks and although not an instant cure,it does help with nitrates and is rechargeable.I use the 100ml bags pre packed by seachem as regenerating is in bleach and water and trust their bags way more than average mesh bag.


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## Sully

PS- perm, I'm using straight tap water for topoffs and WC's. I'll have to test it soon to see if I have any trates. I've never gotten a reading for trates from my SW tank though.


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## Reefing Madness

Yes, the cloudiness can be caused by the Dosing, but won't kill the fish. Its the bacteria bloom from the new bacteria eating out the Trates bacteria.


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## perm_dogg

how long before i start to see results in trate reduction?


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## perm_dogg

nevermind i read back. you already told me. my bad.


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## Reefing Madness

Melevsreef.com - Dosing Vodka to Lower Nitrate & Phosphate


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## perm_dogg

sweet link thanks! do you have a dripper or do you just pour it in?


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## Reefing Madness

I use a Oral Syringe
Walgreens True Easy Oral Syringe | Walgreens


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## perm_dogg

okay cool. i guess i dont understand why. Do you just "inject" the dose into the tank or (knowing you) have some sort of elaborate system connected? Ive been using a measuring spoon and pouring into the out tube of my skimmer.


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## Reefing Madness

Using the Oral Syringe its easier to Dose the correct amount, the MLS are right on the injector. I slowly sqeeze it into the tank twice a day, just kinda shoot it at water flow so it disperses quickly. 
ROFL, no elaborate contraption, yet. (still working on that one) Trying to get a drip system set up that will dose what I fill it with in a 24hour period. But don't want to pay for an IV set up. =)


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## perm_dogg

i hear ya there. I think i'm gonna try to set up a DIY system cause i dont want to be standing there for hours when the dose increases. ha ha. what is ROFL?


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## Reefing Madness

ROFL
Roll On Floor Laughing
You don't stand there when the dose increases. You just dose 2 times per day to spread out the load. Once in AM once in PM. I dose 12MLS @ 7am and 12MLS @ 7pm, and no matter what it is I just shoot it in slowly, over a 5 second period. Did the same thing when I was shooting in 50mls a day.


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## briandeeds13

Ok so I am going to piggyback off this thread as my nitrates are a little high too. Ive done two 40% water changes in the last 2 weeks and still hasnt gone donw. its a 40 gallon tank, have a protein skimmer rated for 75 gallons, 60lbs of live rock and about40 lbs of live sand. Dont over feed (atleast I dont think) what is this dosing with vodka and does that seem to lower nitrates quickly....How much woudl I need with a 40 gal tank


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## Reefing Madness

It does not lower Nitrates quickly, if you follow the directions.
To lower Nitrates quickly you need to do a few 50% water changes 2 days apart. In smaller systems its easier to get em down quickly. a 50% water change will knock your Nitrate numbers down by half, but if you wait to long to do the next one it washes out. So you do them every couple of days.
Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com


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## briandeeds13

Ok I will try to do the water changes more frequent. thanks


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## perm_dogg

So should I purchase two small walmart heaters rated for 30-60 gallons or look online for a good one that can handle my new 55?


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## coralbandit

Aqeuon pro heater.Kensfish.com 1/2 the price of any good LFS.The only heaters I use.
I would think you'd be good with 100w.


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## perm_dogg

new issue in old tank. Some of my rocks look like theyre getting bleached. it looks like a bright white substance in the blue moonlights at night. what is it?


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## briandeeds13

Glad you asked that because i just noticed this on one of my rocks too!!


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## Reefing Madness

Rocks turning white is usually because the Coralline is dying out. What's your Mag, Alk, and calcium?


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## perm_dogg

calcium is at 440. alk is at .162 and mag is at 0


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## Reefing Madness

Alkalinity Conversion Chart
ALK should be between 8-12dKH
Mag should be between 1250 & 1350
Your calcium is fine. But now you know why your Coralline is dying out. No ALK and No Mag.


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## briandeeds13

So would Instant Ocean reef accelerator work for this. It had essential elements like iodine, magnesium, and calcium. The bottle says helps build and replenish purple algae


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## Reefing Madness

I wouldn't use it. You want something that doses those elements, not just bring up dissolved levels or replenish.
I use Baking Soda for ALK
Magnesion for Magnesium
Calcion for Calcium


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## briandeeds13

Can you gond the stuff at the LFS?


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## Reefing Madness

Yea, I just get the stuff at my LFS.
Baking Soda you get at the grocery store
You don't have to use the stuff I suggested, most use the 2 part Randal Farley home made stuff. Along with this link, you will find a diy for Magnesium also.
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


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## perm_dogg

I think, personally, I'd prefer to go with what you suggest considering there's not a lot of people I've ever met who would know all that!!


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## perm_dogg

Alright guys I know I've been lost for a while. I had some complications in my life recently, but I'm on a quest for a smart phone this week so I can finally post some updated pics. I need answers on several things hope you're able to help.


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## Reefing Madness




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## perm_dogg

madness, i cant find that post you had about how to start the cylse in a new tank. something about put a dead shrimp in there or? I have that brine shrimp that i feed my small tank will that work? explain again for me please


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## Reefing Madness

Just get a piece of jumbo shrimp from the store and throw it in a fish net, and lay that in the tank water. That'll jump start the cycle. Leave it in there as long as you wish, the more ammonia the more your tank will support a bigger bio load when its competed its cycle.


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## perm_dogg

madness, I like you, really I do. But first you wanted me to pour perfectly good Vodka into my fish tank and now purposely rot jumbo shrimp in it? Have you lost your mind!! Ha ha. okay ill do it! But I am EATING the rest


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## Reefing Madness

LMAO. Ya gotta love some of the crazy stuff aye man.


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## perm_dogg

my tank is getting over run by this blackish bubbly fungus looking substance. any input?


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## Reefing Madness

Black Pearls??? Crap.
Bubble Algae, gotta be careful with that stuff, it can spread like weeds when trying to remove it and you burst a bubble.
Bubble Algae


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## perm_dogg

I am seriously losing the fight against this algae. I changed the water like 70% twice and it just keeps coming back. What am I suppose to do here? HELP!!


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## Johnnycat

Since I'm out of town and can't constantly monitor the progress of my new tank, I've really enjoyed reading this thread - it looks like you are a few months ahead of me and gives me a heads-up on what I'm facing!

Good luck with the bubble algae - it looks like a tedious job removing the bubbles. I take it the Emerald crab is ineffective against the large established bubbles?


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## perm_dogg

That crab just hides in his damn rock all day and night. Ha ha. I did remove all the hermit crabs like i was instructed to do because they were terrorizing my corals. Some how the Corals are still alive, but I'm getting tired of fighting this algae. I just threw a few crabs back in there and if that doesnt work my filter is getting hooked back up!!


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## coralbandit

Sorry to hear that that crap is really invading your space.I don't think a filter will help with it.I know for fact that I killed my calurpae(the bad one that never dies(goes sexual) with hydrogen peroxide.Get it at drug store.3% is what there is in USA and then use a syringe with airline tubing to shoot it directly.I lost none of my corals or anything during this process.I would do like 3ml per area and maybe work on a couple areas until they died and then go to next group.I dosed daily to my calurpae until it was gone,took maybe a week or two for each area.


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## coralbandit

Now that I have mentioned it and if it makes you nervous(many are really affraid of HP{NOT ME!}) I have ventricaria vetrcosa and velonia aegagrpila in two of my tanks and I'll give it a whirl'I had been trying to remove it physically with sharpened syphon tube but really hasn't worked so I guess I should put my money where my mouth is!I'll start tonight and let you know how it goes.
Good to hear from you sorry about topic!


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## coralbandit

Just hit my 29gl with between 9-12ml of HP.LET THE FESTIVAL OF KILLING BEGIN!


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## perm_dogg

well **** if that actually works thats a fairly cheap remedy compared to the gallons of water and salt i keep pushing through the poor tank. I haven't even had a chance to work with my 55 gallon because I've been battling this one!! I will say them Damsels were worth the 4 bucks, they DONT die!! ha ha


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## perm_dogg

I really wish i had a smart phone so i could upload some pictures of my situation so maybe somebody can decipher what it is I'm actually dealing with.


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## coralbandit

Go back to RMs last post and hit the bubble algae link.See if it any of those are what you got(I wouldn't know the name without it),but I have tried the "remedies" and personally feel if it eats algae then it poops green and all that s*** is still in the system in a slightly different form,so the natural cure isn't really where I am at.


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## Reefing Madness

4 Ways to Remove Bubble Algae From Your Reef Tank - YouTube


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## perm_dogg

you know after reading that link and watching that video, i'm afraid what i have isn't similar to any of those. What I have is best described as like a dark purplish black carpet looking substance that stretches around onto hard objects and takes over entire surfaces in just a couple days. It breaks off easily, but there really isnt any visible "bubbles" It's turned my whole tank into a dirty toilet bowl and its highly unattractive. I'm going to go ahead and assume it is some type of this algae breed though and try some of the techniques I've seen here. Hell, i'll try them all!!


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## Reefing Madness

Did we get you to do the 3 day lights out on the tank yet?


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## coralbandit

Sounds like cyanno.
Reef Addicts - Cyanobacteria - what is it and how can I get rid of it?
The lights out has worked for many.
I have used red slime remover a few times with good sucess
Amazon.com: Ultralife Reef Products, Red Slime Stain Remover, .71 Ounce: Just Phish
That's the cheapest I've seen it.
You got to turn you protien skimmer off despite the instructions.


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## perm_dogg

Just shut them off along with the skimmer. How does this help?


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## coralbandit

perm_dogg said:


> Just shut them off along with the skimmer. How does this help?


Leave the skimmer going for the lights out.
You need to turn the skimmer off if you try the red slime remover(maybe a week).


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## perm_dogg

Speaking of skimmers, is it possible it could be clogged somewhere? It's not pulling the darker **** out like it use to but it's clearly in the tank so I was wondering if I'm suppose to clean more than just the catcher on top (which I do frequently)


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## coralbandit

It won't hurt to clean it ,but that won't change things if it is cyanno. cyanno has been around for millions of years.It is a bacteria truly and not "the crappiest looking algae" in the world.
I will say that I had it a few times in my 75(have it now in my 120 fowlr) and once I used the red slime remover,it never came back to my 75.


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## Reefing Madness

Skimmer intake air lines will get salt creep in them, and this will diminish the skimmers ability to take in the air its supposed to, there by making it work improperly.


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## perm_dogg

well guys, the good news; the lights out technique worked! The red slime seems to be gone. The bad news. Everything in the tank died including the Damsels. Some how my serpent star and the corals are still kicking, but either way it looks like I'm starting all the way over. I'm thinking about calling it quits on this tank and focusing on the bigger tank that has true sand and live rock, no backyard bleached rocks and crushed coral substrate. I thought I had this figured out. I should have been more patient. Thank you all for your help and advice. It was a learning experience to say the least.


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## coralbandit

No Way!The slime and damsels are no big loss IMO.If the corals and any inverts exist change water to help them out.If you are really going to work on next tank then I SERIOUSLY RECOMMEND YOU GET RO/DI SYSTEM.
I'm pretty sure you have been tap all this time and I(me,myself and I) would look no further than source water.


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## Johnnycat

You can't stop now! I need you to blaze the trail for me.


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## perm_dogg

Ha Ha!! Have no fear Johnny Cat, I got your back!! These guys have taught me a lot and, win, lose or draw, I'm no quitter. I'll come back stronger than ever! What's done is done though, I transferred all of the living creatures to the big tank along with the heater and powerhead. I followed Madness' instructions a while back and threw some fresh caught fish into the tank to start the cycling. It's been a while now so I guess after all that's happened I wont be hurt if it fails now, but I think I have a better chance with this one. Now, CB. Let's talk RO/DI whatevers. Hook a brother up with some links or something. what am I after here? Madness, feel free to throw in too, but I want you all to know for safety purposes, I am running the filter for now. All of my tragedies seemed to have started when I removed it, so I need to get things right before I feel confident enough to take out the filter. Feelings? Suggestions? Questions? Let's get started


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## Goby

Great attitude! I've also had some disappointing outcomes over the last couple years, so I can empathize with your frustration. 

Curious to know if you're still dosing vodka?

While it's true that Vodka (carbon) is an effective way to reduce nitrates, it's also true that when Vodka is dosed suddenly and in excess, (as recommended in this thread), that it can lead to bacterial problems much like the ones you've described in recent weeks...sudden cloudiness of water, cyano outbreaks etc. Vodka is actually a food source for cyano and other bacteria. Expert aquarists have published online vodka dosing charts that are effective, safe, and based on legitimate research that supports the need to initially dose vodka in very small amounts and then titrate upward.


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## perm_dogg

I stopped dosing when I ran out of Vodka. (not from the fish tank's consumption) and never started back up again because things got out of control. i was scraping the glass almost daily and when the entire tank turned colors, it was all a ticking time bomb from there. I'm not sure i even got far enough into the dosing to see worthy results. that was my fault though no one else' I know i got greedy and wanted all these cool things and didnt take all the appropriate steps to prepare for such things. I can also admit i was caught in the middle for a second with what was the "right way" to feed them. I just simply failed. I gotta get my *** back up and do it right this time. Thats all there is to it.


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## coralbandit

I like BRS(Bulk Reef Supply) for my ro stuff.Replacement filters are cheap and most kits come with stuff everyone sells for extra$.
BRS 5 Stage PLUS RO/DI System - 75GPD - Bulk Reef Supply
Good water is really important,but I'll be honest and say I have still battled cyanno and have it now in my 120 fowlr(I just dosd the red slime remover and shut my skimmer off,since the last time I did this in my 75 reef was the last time I ever saw cyanno in that tank{knock on wood!})


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## perm_dogg

okay CB. I like your link. A lot of scientifical stuff going on there. tell me....is that just a glorified water filter? How does that compare or compete with the 2 systems I already have? Or does it work with them?


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## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> I stopped dosing when I ran out of Vodka. (not from the fish tank's consumption) and never started back up again because things got out of control. i was scraping the glass almost daily and when the entire tank turned colors, it was all a ticking time bomb from there. I'm not sure i even got far enough into the dosing to see worthy results. that was my fault though no one else' I know i got greedy and wanted all these cool things and didnt take all the appropriate steps to prepare for such things. I can also admit i was caught in the middle for a second with what was the "right way" to feed them. I just simply failed. I gotta get my *** back up and do it right this time. Thats all there is to it.


Many of us have been right where you're at. And no matter how long I do this, I ache for each person who goes through what you went through. Whether you want to look at it as "being greedy" or as a rite of passage, your attitude is awesome. I'm so impressed.


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## Reefing Madness

Can't compare. RO/DI is not just a normal filter, it brings the water quality to 99.99% pure after its gone through there. Also, while your at it, get an Inline TDS meter to go with the RO systems. This will tell you what your water is going in and what it is coming out. A must have when your dealing with this stuff, as it will tell you when your membrane is needing to be changed.
Also, in the Cyano discussion:
I still Dose Vodka, and I don't have any Cyano. I did at some point, but put more flow where needed, and it took care of the issue. Also have a powerhead in the sump, and the sump is clear as a bell. Which by the way, I would advise anyone who is running Macro Algae, ie Cheato, Caulerpa etc. This puts the tumble into what you can't tumble, and it grows better. But anyways. I have no Cyano, and still Dose, I dose at a rate of 20mls a day now, just dropped it from 24. With the advent of the Macro Alage taking off, and cleaning up the water column, I am able to start cutting back. 
It does work guys, lots of the pros use it.


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## coralbandit

The filter I linked you to has a built in "air filled" pressure gauge.It is how you will know if your filters are clogging(getting old enough to change),and built in dual TDS meter.The meter will measure your TDS before the DI and after(just push button to switch which one).The HM merters are awesome.My 6 stage came with HM meter that measures the gallons/hours of the filters and the dual inline TDS.I think my pressure gauge is "liquid filled".Like RM said there really is no comparison of RO/DI with standard filters.The first 2 filters may be similiar then the carbon(which protects the TFC{thin film composite}filter which is the whole secret).The DI is great as my water(municipal) still has anywhere from8-13ppm TDS before my dual DI but never comes out more than 0.I'll link a better model if you're interested(not my money) but the one I linked is very good.
BRS 6 Stage DELUXE RO/DI System - 75GPD - Bulk Reef Supply
This one has the HM meter for filters,another compartment(filter) dual DI (2) and a flush kit built in.The flush kit helps clean out filters to help not change the later section as often.This model also has the "oil filled" pressure gauge.This is basically the one I use.I got the 6 stage chloramine deluxe,but have changed out cartridges so that this is basically what my set up is now.I added even 1 monre canister($25) down the road to add extra prefiltering which helps the better filters stay clean(which keeps me from having to change them so often).The first couple filters are $3 each,it's the later stages that are a few more bucks to replace.


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## perm_dogg

Well you all know I respect and trust your opinions. I look at this in a simple matter. The RO/DI system sounds incredible. i wish i heard of it before i bought the canister filter. But then i bought a protein skimmer which clearly, judging by the water i pour out of it, is working, but neither of these have been enough. The plus side of them is they were pretty much plug and play. This looks far more complex. Would I even be able to figure it out? Or is it something i should do my research on to better understand before going for? I want, wait, I NEED my saltwater tank to thrive. I will do what it takes because nobody enjoys and appreciates the beauty of this hobby like I do. But at what cost should a beginner go? Am i asking for too much too early?


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## Reefing Madness

#14-Optional but definitely recommend getting a Reverse Osmosis or RO/Deionization filter for the make-up water, and a barrel for storing the water.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f67/what-you-might-need-start-your-41978.html

This is the extent that a beginner should go to. This tells you, up front what you should get for your new tank. Minus the Reactors that can come later on down the road if need be.


New tanks take a couple of months to settle in. They won't on the other hand do it over night. And a Filter will, in time cause you Nitrate issues unless kept clean, weekly clean. Fuge/Sump is next, not a must have but a this is great to have piece.
A skimmer works to remove organics from the water column, it can't remove Ammonias and metals and such like a RO can.
But given this, I ran my tank with Tap Water for years, I never had Cyano in there. I had all kinds of sponge growth though. Now, if you had the appropriate sized Fuge with your tank, you could get away with tap water, but it would need to be a big fuge, and it would need to be filled with Macro Algae.


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## coralbandit

The ro or ro/di simply attaches to your water supply(check the link,but brs usaully sends 3 options for hook up).Then you need to take small tubing(supplied I believe) and connect/ insert it to drain pipe(I drilled small hole in drain pipe and slipped tubing in it.Then you need a resevoir to hold the water it (the ro/di) makes.I use a 44 gallon rubber maid garbage can.a float valve is needed to stop the filter when the resevoir is full(everything I said you need definately comes with the second option of filters).
I to was a little nervous(and skeptical) of how this filter would work.It is easy.The drain tube has pressure so it doesn't to be high or low enough to get to the drain.I have mine hooked up to a hose bib in my basement so I can turn it off when I change filters.
No electricity,no special "extra equipment".They really are plug and play and only take 15-30 minutes to hook up(maybe even less if you are handy with plumbing).
If any of the accesories are not included in first link they are all included with the second link (along with better filtration and the HM volume computer monitor.)I would definately go with option 2,but again not my money.


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## coralbandit

If you go to the BRS site they have videos on everthing from installing filter,to changing filters and well EVERTHING!Even if you get a different kind of filter the videos are very helpful.


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## perm_dogg

okay, well the 55 gallon has been up and running for quite a while now. Id say a couple months. CB, I will invest in this system, but it may require me to move the location of my set up for ease of access to plumbing, not the end of the world. I will be honest here and say if I go this extra mile, this **** better work for me! ha ha. but I think for now I will go to the fish store and get some more snails and cleaner shrimp (instead of the coral banded this time) just to keep it clean until i can get this going. I will try to post pictures tonight to show you where i am at and one little positive note, my pencil urchin looked to be dead or atleast not moving in the old tank, i threw him in the 55 gallon just to see for sure, and him and the 2 corals are coming back to life!! Must like the clean water Thanks guys. The world should know about you. Get money!


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## perm_dogg

and for the record I appreciate the encouragement I get on this thread. I feel like I've come this far, why quit now right? Have a nice day folks


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## coralbandit

The ro/di does not get hooked up to the tank.So you shouldn't need to move tank for the filter.It just cleans the water before you place it in tank.Water from the filter can go into anything(that will hold water) .Like I said I use rubbermaid garbage cans to store and treat all my water.Nothing enters any of my tanks(fresh or salt) before it is stored(my RO/DI) or treated(my freshwater)NOTHING.I drain from my ro garbage can into 5 gallon buckets and add salt if I'm changing water,or just dump it in filter if I'm replacing evaporation.


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## perm_dogg

OOOHHHHH!! I see now. This isn't more equipment for the fish tank, this is how i purify my water without buying distilled water by the gallon? I'm sorry i jumped to conclusions


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## Reefing Madness

Thats my RO/DI system. It fills that 55g blue drum underneath it. Thats where I store my water, and mix up salt batches. Using a Python with a 50' hose to fill the sump during a WC.


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## perm_dogg

very nice set up Madness. totally professional as usual may i ask though...whats the culligan system there for? just to stack buckets or? ha ha


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## Reefing Madness

Drinking water. Its a chiller


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## coralbandit

Just wanted to update;The hydrogen peroxide helped with the bubble cells(didn't kill them but loosened their attachment and seemed to change them from dark green to almost clear).I took the oppurtunity to remove as many as I could.This is on the 29gl.
On the 120gl cyanno had been going crazy so I removed 1 4' led strip(had 5) and dosed the "ultralife red slime stain remover".I shut off my protien skimmer as in the past when I didn't this product did nothing and in 3 days ALL cyanno is dead,falling off or gone!I used toothbrush to scrub rest of crap off rock and redosed yesterday so in a couple more days I'll crank the skimmer up.
My own personal thought is that since cyanno is a bacteria and not really an algae that this treatment will help with future outbreaks by possibly killing the source(bacteria)?
I don't really know but will say since the last time I did this in my 75 reef I have not had one lick of cyanno(always keeping fingers crossed).


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## Shaun843

I had a question about amphipods...Considering my tank is still going through a mini cycle. Would it be beneficial to add some pods in the tank at some point before purchasing live stock or do I really need them?


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## Shaun843

coralbandit said:


> No Way!The slime and damsels are no big loss IMO.If the corals and any inverts exist change water to help them out.If you are really going to work on next tank then I SERIOUSLY RECOMMEND YOU GET RO/DI SYSTEM.
> I'm pretty sure you have been tap all this time and I(me,myself and I) would look no further than source water.


Agreed. Hell I been using Distilled water from the grocery store in gallon form, even at 1.00 per gallon...RO DI system PAYS for itself in the long run. Id buy the setup but have no room!!


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## perm_dogg

I may have asked this once before, but what causes the red, "irony water" like tint on the glass in a tank? And what stops it besides scrubbing the glass?


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## perm_dogg

Is it possible that the existing coralline on the live rocks from old tank transferred enough to start growth in the new tank? Cuz I'm pretty sure I just scraped off some purple spots already. Maybe that's what the red tint is on the glass, but I thought it was suppose to be purple? Anyways, here's the new tanks full test results;
Salinity- 1.023
PH-8.2
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-20
Calcium-22
KH- 9
Phosphates-0

All in all, I think this is a good start. Agreed?


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## Reefing Madness

Yea its possible. But not with a Calcium reading of 22. ??


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## perm_dogg

my apologies. Thats the number of liquid drops i need when i test it. It means 440


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## perm_dogg

Finally some pictures for ya


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## perm_dogg

oh **** my bad on that sideways one


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## Reefing Madness

Nice set up bro. Coming along nicely.


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## Johnnycat

I like it! 

I assume you are planning more live rock? I love the rock with the arch.


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## Shaun843

*Agrees with Reefing* Very nice setup. Cant wait to see future up dates! *pc


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## perm_dogg

Johnnycat said:


> I like it!
> 
> I assume you are planning more live rock? I love the rock with the arch.


Absolutely. I had a friend find a whole bunch of dried up old live rock that was laying in the yard. (Hundreds of dollars worth) I boiled each rock for like a half an hour and put it in my old tank, and after that, it all started to fall apart, leading me to where I am today. (Starting over) but lesson learned. From now on I will only buy pre-cured, still living, live rock. But yes, much to come


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## perm_dogg

Added a 2 pound natural purple ocean rock and a skunk cleaner shrimp today along with a few different species of snails. 50 bucks later, I'm wishing I had more to look at. Damn this hobby is dangerous One live rock at a time for a while. Budget's tight these days, but i'm on my way. Madness, CB, one day my tank will resemble the awesomeness of yours


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## coralbandit

None of it happened over night for me!Years and years my friend! You'll get there.


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## perm_dogg

oh and on a side note, I found out today that my LFS sells RO water for .79 per gallon. Not bad. So I think when I do my next water change I will go that route just to be safe. Thanks for presenting it guys


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## Reefing Madness

CB's tank maybe, mines easy to get to. Mine is a fish tank. =)


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## perm_dogg

I don't get it? Aren't they all fish tanks? Isn't that why were here?


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## coralbandit

Mine is a reef tank!Loaded with shrimp,urchins,snails(I like conchs),a couple of porcelain crabs (filter feeders),one emerald crab(I think he is still in there!),corals,and one anenome along with many fish.


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## perm_dogg

Dude, have you lost your mind? That's beautiful!! I'm quite jealous right now.


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## Reefing Madness

Trust me bro. You'll be there in no time. Then you'll be pulling your hair out because the Coralline is growing out of control, and you've gotta scrape it off the glass every other day.


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## Shaun843

Ive been through the whole coraline algae on the glass.....not fun and it is a pain in the rear to scrape off...thats why i sold my last nanocube.. i will not be adding trace elements anymore than whats in my salt mix...but coralbandit that is a nice tank other than that.


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## coralbandit

I only clean front mostly,sometimes the right side.The hydors I just soak in vinnegar for a day or two and they come out like new.
I actually still occasionally add purple up,I geuss I like the coraline ( it seems like a natural background).


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## Johnnycat

CB - that is the goal, right there! Thanks for the pic to keep me aware of where I want to go!


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## perm_dogg

coralbandit said:


> I only clean front mostly,sometimes the right side.The hydors I just soak in vinnegar for a day or two and they come out like new.
> I actually still occasionally add purple up,I geuss I like the coraline ( it seems like a natural background).


AGREED!!


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## perm_dogg

Johnnycat said:


> CB - that is the goal, right there! Thanks for the pic to keep me aware of where I want to go!


and, AGREED!! Love the purp


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## Shaun843

I mean I'm a fan or the purple too, its just I rather have a cleaner looking tank. 
Permadogg, your right I remember having the coraline algae on the rear of my tank and people would ask me is that a background? lol


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## coralbandit

There maybe more people who don't want the coralline compared to those who do.A completely clean tank(the glass) is awesome,but for me I just let it roll.I'll add and the coralline may be to blame (a little) my tank EATS calcium and carbonate hardness.I buff every week and even need to after water changes as they don't bring tank back up to par.


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## perm_dogg

Are we considering this to be a "downfall" of Coralline? I, for one, definitely like the look of the purple on the back glass, but also don't really love anything I have to do daily to maintain something. Ha ha. Call me lazy, but I guess it's a catch 22.


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## coralbandit

I at best do weekly maintenance(I sometimes let tank go 2) with only top offs and mag floating front glass.If I don't buff every week my calcium and kH will be very low but nothing in the tank seems effected.I do usaully test and buff weekly.
For the time being I dig the coralline so it is no big deall to me.It doesn't get to get a hold on front glass as long as I magfloat it couple times a week.


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## Reefing Madness

I gots me a blade scraper. Gotta go at it couple times a week. Mines not as bad as CB's. But, I have the rock off the glass on the left side of my tank, and don't like having anything on there, so I scrape what I can. Some like it, some don't like scraping every few days to get it off.


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## perm_dogg

Yeah I found that having any rocks touching the glass creates problems much faster thats for sure.


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## perm_dogg

I got a question I shoulda asked a long time ago. Do you guys pull out your fish, rocks, corals, or anything else when you do big water changes or clean your glass? I feel like I'm always pissing off my corals. ha ha. let me know if i'm going crazy. Also, do you do a water change even if your numbers come out good? Probably not, but I wanna be sure.


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## coralbandit

I never take anything out of any tanks when changing water or cleaning.The stress will be overcome by good fresh water.
And believe it or not many of the pros can go 2 years without changing water.I guess after 2 years you just do it for fresh traces or whatever,not like if it was good for the last 2 years it should suddenly be in need,without some type of disaster or accident.
I do have to change water at least monthly ,a little more often lately.


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## perm_dogg

okay cool. yeah, as you know from listening to me in the past, i hate changing water. but I've come to peace with it. i have a very busy lifestyle, but since this hobby has become one of my healthier passions, I gotta do what i gotta do. Today i scraped all 4 sides of my glass, rinsed out me 3 stage canister filter, and was going to test the water after a while here. I keep getting this lime green algae that grows on the glass of my heater. The substrate has that ****ty rust colored look starting again and i'm wondering if i should vacuum it. I know madness said he never stirs up the bottom, but i hate that dirty look. So I dont know. The only things i have in this tank are crabs, snails and 1 skunk cleaner shrimp. Is there anything else I should look into for keeping this thing clean beyond RO water?


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## perm_dogg

oh and I have to add....I hate the mag cleaner! It's hard to maneuver around all the obstacles in the tank, it wrinkles up my background, I just have the Walmart one, (not the mag-float) but I think i'm going to invest in a cleaning kit so i dont have to make such a damn mess ha ha


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## perm_dogg

Calcium: 400
KH: 162
Phosphates: 0
Nitrates: 10-20
Salinity: 1.023
Temp: 78'
Gonna refrain from water change at this time, things look alright I think. I am gonna put in a dose of Purple up though. I believe I'm a bit low. And damn that stupid crab wont stop climbing into my coral!!


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## Reefing Madness

Couple things.
Vodka Dose if you want to do less water changes, or get a very large Sump.
I don't use a Mag Float to clean my glass, it would take me forever using that thing. I use a blue scotch brite glass cleaning pad on mine.
As far as the substrate getting ugly, I don't get it. You probably have more snails and hermits in your tank that I have in mine. Maybe add a bit more flow to keep the detritus from gathering. My Crushed Coral doesn't get dingy, and I don't have any sand sifters. Maybe once a week shoot your powerhead at the substrate to blow off the gathering junk? Or give it a vacuum with your canister filter.


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## perm_dogg

Well I do only have the one powerhead and it's set pretty high up, it makes sense, in a 55 gallon long tank it's probably not even reaching the bottom being set so high up huh? Let alone being enough flow for this size tank. I will give that a shot. I like the blue scrub pad idea. I assume you have it on a stick of some sort? And yes i have like 8 hermit crabs, 1 strawberry crab, and 3 smaller snails along with the cleaner shrimp. I was hoping with the power of a 3 stage filter, a protein skimmer and all of these little bastards, clean up would be minimal, but that's unfortunately not the case. so, I dont get it either! ha ha, but I just gotta get to the source of the problem and conquer it. I will point out the tank may get some morning sun through my bay window. is this maybe causing problems for me?


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## Reefing Madness

Na, I get morning sun on mine all winter and dont have an algae problem. Flow is usually an issue with that, and also phosphates, which a sump with algae or a reactor woukd solve. Tank maintenance is always going on, its just the extent in which yiu want to keep your tank. I ticked off a lot of people with the amount of work I don't do on mine. 
But with reguards to snails, I think I have a total of 8-10 turbo snails, one bumble bee snail and one hermit crab, that's it. So water params have Lit to do with algae growth in there.


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## perm_dogg

probably a stupid question, but would you recommend I add another powerhead? I read somewhere that I should have like 40-50 snails for my size aquarium, but that seems a little nuts. I will get a few more though. and also, my filter and skimmer both push water around in my tank so????


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## Reefing Madness

Skimmer and canister filters aren't counted as flow, not enough coming from either one. You should have 550gph minimum in your tank, but I'd go higher. JMO. Some have a crap load of snails and hermits in their tank, if it works for them,thats cool. I've never needed that many I guess.


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## perm_dogg

Lucky guy I guess I'll save up for more flow bro. Thanks!!


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## perm_dogg

I do want to point out that I am using the Hydor Koralia Nano 425 that you recommended I purchase before. Would you recommend I get a twin and set it up on the other end of the tank or go bigger than that? I do like the one I have, it's small and does move water well, it's also quiet. What do you think? And should I have them running at the top, mid range, or lower part of the tank? I noticed most people have them up high pointing slightly downward.


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## Reefing Madness

Bingo, now you've got the jist of it. Another 425 would be great. Im using the hydor knock offs and I have 7200gph in my tank (240g). =) That give you and idea of how much you can run?
I've got em positioned on either end towards the back pointing towards the center of the tank., you can point them a lil different to break up the flow, all depends on your rock work.


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## perm_dogg

Oh Madness, your never ending reminders that I am just a puppy in a Dogg's world. I dont have enough live rock yet either!! ****, i almost forgot. Is there a way i can safely use all that rock I found in the yard? Can I boil it and use it or should I just buy new rock?


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## Reefing Madness

Nope. You have no idea what metals would happen to be in that rock. Dry Rock, Base Rock, Lace Rock, Live Rock. Those are your choices.


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## perm_dogg

okay, but remember, this was all actually cured live rock before. It just got thrown outside by somebody and I happened to aquire it. So isn't it technically considered dry rock at that rate?


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## Reefing Madness

Oh yea. Thought you said adding more backyard rock......Had me confused there. But, if you still have more of that stuff, throw it in there. Lil at a time if you don't want a mini cycle.


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## perm_dogg

probably an obvious answer but..... boil it first?


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## Reefing Madness

If its just dry old Live Rock, rinse it out really well then you can use it. NO need to boil it, its already toast.


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## perm_dogg

This rock will eventually turn into live rock I believe right? And how long is that suppose to take generally. (I am going to add 1 per week or every other week)


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## Reefing Madness

How long for it to team with life or just grow enough bacteria to sustain life? Bacteria in it would take roughly 6 weeks, team with life will take a lot longer. But would grow coralline fast enough to make it at least pretty to look at.


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## perm_dogg

Perfect. Also, I don't know what possessed me to buy both of these things at the same time because it seems like they do the same thing. I use purple up, but also have a reef buffer powder. Should I be using them at the same time or get rid of one or what?


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## coralbandit

Depending on what the reef buffer does I would think you can use both.I will guess the buffer is for kH(but it is still only a guess).I do use purple up and add calcium buffer,kHbuffer and pH buffer for my tank as it eats calcium and kH weekly.


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## perm_dogg

you dose them at the same time?


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## Goby

There'd likely never be a reason to dose both simultaneously. Both products will buffer but like CB said, one is more for the purpose of buffering and the other is more for the purpose of nutrition, (however it will still buffer). 

I'm not familiar with _Reef Buffer Power_ but like _Purple Up_, it's probably derived from the calcium source of aragonite. Aragonite stores calcium and carbonate at equilibrium as Calcium Carbonate. Aragonite also holds trace elements like magnesium and strontium. How _Purple Up_ differs from other buffers is that some of it's calcium is in ionic form, meaning it's not compounded to anything...meaning it's not calcium carbonate, it's just calcium. Theoretically, this makes it a more versatile source of calcium. _Purple Up_ also has iodine in it. Most buffers do not contain iodine.

Basically, _Purple Up _is a source of not just calcium carbonate, but it's also a source of FREE calcium and iodine. Most other buffers contain only calcium carbonate.


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## Reefing Madness

Purple Up only raises DISSOLVED Calcium levels in your tank. It will not raise Calcium itself if there is none present. Thus, I would imagine, is the reason why CB uses Purple Up and a Liquid Calcium dose.


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## coralbandit

I don't need to purple up anywhere near as often as I need the other buffers(my coraline has a good hold).When I purple up I have no hesitation dosing along with my other buffers.I use kent turbo calcium and super dkh for the pH,and now use continum(until I run out) and then will be trying seachem reef builder,as the suppliers of my lfs can't supply kent coral builder or continum for my kH anymore.As I understand the purple up will not boost your calcium to proper levels easily(won't for me).If I used enough purple up to get my calcium proper I think it would be a never ending escolator ride of increasing amounts(I mean alot!) especially if the coraline kept growing and using even more.I also think the purple up settles on solid surfaces(how it forms coraline) and does not properly stay in the water column.


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## Reefing Madness

Why don't you use Baking Soda CB?


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## coralbandit

Sometimes I barely know why I do what I do.I have no good reason that I don't use baking soda,just trying to stick with the same S**T ,but they can't even keep the product on shelf anymore.(I'm blaming this on central gardens aquistion of kent, aqueon,oceanic .......They bought all up and are slowly killing each company!)
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com This is what I should be doing huh?


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## Reefing Madness

Pretty much, I guess. As much as you use, I'd say yea. It would be alot cheaper for you. Along with this.
Do-It-Yourself Magnesium Supplements for the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


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## Goby

Reefing Madness said:


> Purple Up only raises DISSOLVED Calcium levels in your tank. It will not raise Calcium itself if there is none present. Thus, I would imagine, is the reason why CB uses Purple Up and a Liquid Calcium dose.


_Purple Up_ contains both compounded and ionic calcium. When a mineral is "ionic", that means it's been dissolved. Therefore, when _Purple Up _is poured into water, it instantly raises dissolved calcium levels. This happens regardless of whether or not the water already contains calcium.


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## Reefing Madness

. .


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## Goby

Reefing Madness said:


> NO IT DOES NOT! Have you ever used it? Im guessing you haven't! Becuase if you had, then you'd know, that if there is no Calcium in the tank, you can't bring the dissolved levels up to anything. I have used it!! I put the whole DAMN bottle in before I figured out what the stuff was.
> You need to go back the Holiday Inn Express again, and learn up a bit.


I've been using _Purple Up_ regularly for nearly 2 years, however my understanding of organic chemistry comes from years of study at college level...maybe a degree or two.

That said, calcium compounds such as calcium oxide and calcium gluconate dissolve in water. The calcium compound of calcium carbonate for example, has the ability to dissolve into calcium ions and carbonate ions. Calcium ions, AKA ionic calcium. In which case, 'dissolved" is what calcium *IS*, not what it does. Single calcium ions do not dissolve further...they can't...they're only made of a single type of atom which is what makes calcium an element in the first place. 

So, since _Purple Up_ contains ionic calcium, AKA single calcium ions, AKA free calcium, AKA dissolved calcium...when added to aquarium water, it instantly raises dissolved calcium levels. This happens regardless of whether or not the aquarium water already contains any free or compounded calcium.

_Purple Up_ doesn't create dissolved calcium. _Purple up_ is dissolved calcium.


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## susankat

Back off reefing madness. No since in being rude.


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## perm_dogg

Maybe I should just go to Walmart and buy a bottle of dissolvable calcium pills and just chuck em in there? ha ha. who gives a **** how things happen scientifically. i just want to do what's best for my tank. Thank you all for your individual advice on this subject, but I just needed to know if i can use buffer and Purple up at the same time, whatever the method, I need my parameters right for a healthy tank. Can we all agree on that? ha ha. Madness and CB have helped me hundred times during all of this so no advice will be disregarded. But I appreciate any and all input, as it states on my thread title


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## Reefing Madness

. .


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## susankat

20 years don't make an expert. No amount of time does. This hobby is about learning and learning from mistakes. I have been keeping fish for more than 30 years and I definitely don't claim to be an expert.

A lot of this rudeness you have towards Goby is nonsense. Just because you don't like her doesn't give you the right to put her down every chance you get on this forum.

Take a chill pill and take the good with the bad.


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## Reefing Madness

Ok then. For everyone out there following.
READ THE BOTTLE


----------



## Reefing Madness

. .


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## majerah1

If your not happy with her opinions you can surely say so without being rude. Or just dont comment either way.


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## perm_dogg

coralbandit said:


> Sometimes I barely know why I do what I do.I have no good reason that I don't use baking soda,just trying to stick with the same S**T ,but they can't even keep the product on shelf anymore.(I'm blaming this on central gardens aquistion of kent, aqueon,oceanic .......They bought all up and are slowly killing each company!)
> An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com This is what I should be doing huh?


Ha ha. I love this


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## susankat

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions even if you don't agree. Your coming off as an arrogant *** that don't think anyone knows anything but you.

Its up to the OP to decide who's advice that they want to take, not up to you to be rude in telling someone you think they are wrong. I imagine I can go into a group of saltwater people and let them read what you write and half would say that your wrong. 

Its not a matter of you being right or wrong its a matter of opinion and courtesy. And with you concerning goby your courtesy goes right out the window. And yes I received complaints on your attitude from more than one person. I have only received one from her concerning you and that has been just today with your attitude. So back off of her. If you can't be courteous to her just don't say anything concerning her.


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## perm_dogg

Moving forward.....ha ha. I'm going to use some common logic. Here's what makes sense to me. I believe that Purple Up clearly states that it helps enhance Calcium levels. I do not believe it creates it out of nowhere and balances your aquarium by itself. It's intention is to feed the calcium that, (Id have to guess already exists somehow), not create it, and I think that because, if purple up could do all that by itself, we would all already have beautiful tanks with little to no work. And as CB constantly states, some chemical mixtures react differently. Maybe your mix is eating certain things while providing good sources for others, maybe you use tap water like me and will never have it right. ha ha. All I know is I'm trying to reach a goal here and like anything in life, i will do what makes sense and what works. Also what saves me money So, let's talk fish shall we? You all read this so must have an idea where I'm at. Should I try to add a fish yet or just let these mini cycles from the dry rock take place first? I'd hate to get more Damsels, but if they will help get things moving I will. Opinions I dare ask?


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## perm_dogg

PS. I am NO expert!! ha ha. I live in Wisconsin. Try relying on MY LFS for what you need! If I pull this off, I earned my street cred


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## coralbandit

I think you could add fish,but would want to know your parameters as of lately first.And I would definately stay away from damsels.If your water is decent(fish are way less demanding than corals and inverts)I would only install fish you really want(to keep).
I get store credit like crazy for services and swordtails so alot of my salt stuff is "free",but even with that taken into consideration and the fact I haven't had 4 fish die in the last 2 years in 3 seperate tanks,I still get nervous when I bring home the expensive ones(emperor angel $199 !),but really have had no problems.My nitrates hover in the 40ppm range,and I change some water.It's mostly the ammonia and nitrites we need to know about.


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## perm_dogg

it's too bad the LFS doesnt mix the salt right in with the RO water they sell!!


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## coralbandit

My lfs sells Nutri Sea Waterâ„¢ Natural Live Ocean Saltwater by Natures OceanÂ®.
I have never bought it but my buddy uses it fairly regulary.It's a little pricey.


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## perm_dogg

yeah I can see why that's expensive. (how convenient!!) Then again so is the damn salt!! ha ha. i made that comment cuz I'm fresh out and i know I should probably do a water change soon. Ill check parameters tonight, but it's not good to not have some in case of an emergency right?


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## coralbandit

I'm "sick " with fish but yea!I buy 200 gallons worth of salt at a time.About$60 at a clip.
The water is like $15-20 for 5 gallons!My buddy says it is awesome though and has no regrets(he has "basically"unlimited store credit also though(we did the roof for them and are receiveing payments monthly or store credit as we wish).They still owe like $3000!


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## perm_dogg

oh my god that's a great deal. I wish I had an opportunity like that up here!! Nice dude. very nice!!


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## perm_dogg

Tonight's results;
Ammonia-0
Nitrites-0
Nitrates-20
Calcium-440
PH-8.2
KH-180
Phosphates-0
Salinity-1.025
Temp-76'-78'

I don't know what I'm doing differently, but my tank seems to be maintaining good parameters. That's over a month without a water change!! Maybe normal for some of you, but to me this is a good thing!!ha ha. Anyway with all great things comes some bull**** so here's what I just discovered. Serious salt creep on my lighting and tank rim. What's the deal here guys? Madness? Did you give up on me or what? I'm ready to move to the next stage....


----------



## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> Tonight's results;
> Ammonia-0
> Nitrites-0
> Nitrates-20
> Calcium-440
> PH-8.2
> KH-180
> Phosphates-0
> Salinity-1.025
> Temp-76'-78'
> 
> I don't know what I'm doing differently, but my tank seems to be maintaining good parameters. That's over a month without a water change!! Maybe normal for some of you, but to me this is a good thing!!ha ha. Anyway with all great things comes some bull**** so here's what I just discovered. Serious salt creep on my lighting and tank rim. What's the deal here guys? Madness? Did you give up on me or what? I'm ready to move to the next stage....


Parameters look great. As far as the excess creep goes, try to reduce the splash and water-mist at the surface. One way I've accomplished that was to point the power heads slightly downward. A way to reduce splash from a HOB etc is to raise the water level. What's going on at the surface of your water? Any fans increasing evaporation?


----------



## coralbandit

Your levels are real good!CA is a little high but no harm will come from it and it should be absorbed in time.
The creep is something you will have to deal with on a regular maintenance schedule.
Just pull light out and wipe it down with fresh water and a rag.Depending how much crap(hair,dust,possible metal from light) I sometimes wipe it off right into tank!


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## coralbandit

I resisted jumping in on the round and round that went on earlier,but really want to say; we all(members who have been here more than a year) took part in "beating up" Bob for his inaccurate post (even the mods) and all said out loud that inaccurate info is unacceptable.When it comes to salt water I think I understand pretty well(although nowhere near my freshwater knowledge),and I really(despite manufacturers claim) don't think purple up is a suitable calcium supplement to a reef tank.I use it fairly regulary and believe(know in my own opinion)that it is not a suitable supplement to raise or maintain calcium levels.
I'm sorry Goby got offended(especially enough to pm a mod),but accurate info is way more important in salt than fresh.I've been called a ;"rude adolescent","shark",'NAZI" and many other names and never asked for anyone to defend me or had anyone jump to my aide.
Several did comment when I was called"lacking in knowledge"(thanks jrmain),but no "interference" or outside help has ever been needed to keep me posting and none will stop me either!
I don't think that what RM said was "all that bad" or "out of line".There is a good chance none of us are experts(I'm not)but there are,whether any of you like it or not varrying degrees of knowledge on this site.So to reprimand on a thread instead of a PM(not a real rule of site expert either,but I think that is how it is supposed to go?) one of ,if not the most helpful intelligent,helpful members on the limited saltwater threads this site gets is a mistake I hope I don't have to pay for!I appreciate all the info I get from RM and think(again only my opinion) that he is the "expert" in this feild on this site.I have read many salt water threads where members said they joined specifically because of him.
Again I'm sorry Goby got so upset,but I'm a little miffed by how it was handled!
Opinions are free,accurate info is invaluable.Lets work on getting "OUR" priorities straight!


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## perm_dogg

Well said. I trust RM's knowledge far beyond my own and the reason is proof in experience utilizing the tools he's offered. Nothing but the best. Opinions are irrelevant when trying to sustain life. It either works or it doesn't. I'm not a hater and I can handle a healthy debate. I endure constructive criticism in every aspect of my life. I will never claim to be better, brighter or above another human being because what I believe in stands above ANYONE'S opinion. But this is about saltwater aquariums and I'm new to this hobby and I love it! I'm completely invested in it. I've spent more on my fish tank than I have on my own son in the past year! ha ha. So let's keep the ball rolling shall we? We're here for a reason. Thank you CB!!


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## perm_dogg

Goby said:


> Parameters look great. As far as the excess creep goes, try to reduce the splash and water-mist at the surface. One way I've accomplished that was to point the power heads slightly downward. A way to reduce splash from a HOB etc is to raise the water level. What's going on at the surface of your water? Any fans increasing evaporation?


Yes my power head is facing down towards the bottom and its even positioned half way down the aquarium glass. I don't have any fans or air flow near the tank. The water level is topped off, but it may have occurred in the slight drop before the last change. I'll just clean it off, what's one more thing right Thank you!


----------



## Goby

coralbandit said:


> I resisted jumping in on the round and round that went on earlier,but really want to say; we all(members who have been here more than a year) took part in "beating up" Bob for his inaccurate post (even the mods) and all said out loud that inaccurate info is unacceptable.When it comes to salt water I think I understand pretty well(although nowhere near my freshwater knowledge),and I really(despite manufacturers claim) don't think purple up is a suitable calcium supplement to a reef tank.I use it fairly regulary and believe(know in my own opinion)that it is not a suitable supplement to raise or maintain calcium levels.
> I'm sorry Goby got offended(especially enough to pm a mod),but accurate info is way more important in salt than fresh.I've been called a ;"rude adolescent","shark",'NAZI" and many other names and never asked for anyone to defend me or had anyone jump to my aide.
> Several did comment when I was called"lacking in knowledge"(thanks jrmain),but no "interference" or outside help has ever been needed to keep me posting and none will stop me either!
> I don't think that what RM said was "all that bad" or "out of line".There is a good chance none of us are experts(I'm not)but there are,whether any of you like it or not varrying degrees of knowledge on this site.So to reprimand on a thread instead of a PM(not a real rule of site expert either,but I think that is how it is supposed to go?) one of ,if not the most helpful intelligent,helpful members on the limited saltwater threads this site gets is a mistake I hope I don't have to pay for!I appreciate all the info I get from RM and think(again only my opinion) that he is the "expert" in this feild on this site.I have read many salt water threads where members said they joined specifically because of him.
> Again I'm sorry Goby got so upset,but I'm a little miffed by how it was handled!
> Opinions are free,accurate info is invaluable.Lets work on getting "OUR" priorities straight!


The information I shared regarding _Purple Up_ was 100% accurate...and ironically, the picture RM posted of the label demonstrated that. Ionic Calcium *IS* Dissolved Calcium...it's the exact same thing. The terms are interchangeable. And since _Purple Up_ contains Ionic Calcium, when it's poured into an aquarium, it instantly raises dissolved calcium levels. 

PurpleUp Home Page

Dissolved calcium, ionic calcium, free calcium, available calcium, unbound calcium, noncompounded calcium....ALL those terms mean the exact same thing. Perhaps RM misinterpreted the label to mean that ionic calcium has the ability to create dissolved calcium. I dunno. That's really here nor there...RM doesn't need to be rude to me. Telling me to "go back to the Holiday Inn Express?" You seemed just fine with him telling me that CB, no? And I didn't get upset, I merely thought enough was enough. 

Not long ago I received an email from a Mod on a different site informing me that RM has been banned from many aquatic forums...livingreefs.com, pufferfish.net, tr0picalfishkeeping.com, bettafish.com, turtles.net...and that's just a portion of the list that I remember off the top of my head...there were several others. In those forums and others over the last couple years, RM has posted tens of thousands of times...claiming to be an expert in everything. Yet oddly, no one is aware of him having successfully kept even a single coral long term. Not one. RM actually lied and said he bought something from me through the mail and left me negative feedback in iTrader...yet I don't remember you mentioning that you didn't like how that was "handled". It doesn't get any more public than that CB...he left me permanent, damaging, PUBLIC feedback on a transaction that never happened...and got away with it. And then has the gawl to come in here and continue to insult me? So sorry you're feeling a little "miffed" CB.

The only thing more disturbing to me than RM's behavior in this forum, is your constant support of it CB. Where does that come from? RM isn't half the aquarist you are. You post from experience and heart and you display a genuine love for teaching others. You're the "go to man" on this site, not RM...don't forget that.


----------



## Reefing Madness

You got BALLS. I'll give you that one. You want to let everyone know the details of those issues on those sites? NO?? I thought not, because you have no freakin idea what occurred there do you? !!
And being that you don't have a clue, I'll let you in on it. TFK, Turtles.net, Bettafish.net,dogs.net, pufferfish.net are all the same SITE!!(get a clue will you) Nice try I might add, then again as usual your guessing on the issue of the incident. As usual, you are wrong again. Not uncommon for you. But I think I'll leave more feedback for you.
Oh and for the record. I've still got corals in my tank for over 2 years. I HAVE PICS OF MY TANK, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW BUT YOUR MOUTH. Mine is more a fish than coral tank, but I keep a few because I like em. I show pics of my tank, not of myself, unlike someone we all know........High maintenance no show tank running mouth.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Heres how you got STARTED: BY ME!!!
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f20/ok-refugium-30334.html
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f8/please-recommend-33718.html
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f8/royal-gramma-basslet-42712.html
Now, show me exactly where in your world I asked and got answered anything by you???


----------



## coralbandit

Unfortunately the way this site is set up the only way you can leave "feedback" is to say you "sold,or purchased" something from them.I have left feed back for many and was only able to by "inputting "I purchased something from them.
I WAS CALLED A ****ING NAZI AND NO ONE HERE SAID ****!I HAVE BEEN CALLED UNEDUCATED,A RUDE ADOLESCENT,AND A SHARK(BY SOMONE WHO CALLED YOU A LIAR{WHEN YOU SPOTTED HIM BEFORE ANY OF US AS A CRACKPOT WHO WAS HIMSELF LYING AND MAKING FAKE POST}) AND DESPITE MY PLEADS THE MODS DID NOTHING TO HIM BESIDES SAY "I GOT MY EYE ON YOU".
HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS!!!!!! REALLY!!!!! I'm pretty sure you work nights(my wife did for 20 years) get some sleep ,think about it,search beaslbob and see the BEATINGS even our mods gave him before banning!
We don't all have to agree,but as much as you choose to believe the words of a manufacturer(purple up) and I have read their claims(right in line with info you provided)I don't believe it to be true either.It does not sustain my calcium levels as I stated I use kent turbo calcium also and have never had too much calcium.I'll add that when I don't use purple up my coralline on glass will turn green,although my calcium levels are still proper,so I wonder?This product claims to be algae accelarator on bottle.
I appreciate info from all and if someone wants to attack me(as they did in "dingo ate my whatever"),I can handle myself and let others decide for themselves.Many thought my responses were proper and well worded.No mod ever told him to back off!But I don't see him here anymore either!


----------



## Goby

coralbandit said:


> Unfortunately the way this site is set up the only way you can leave "feedback" is to say you "sold,or purchased" something from them.I have left feed back for many and was only able to by "inputting "I purchased something from them.
> I WAS CALLED A ****ING NAZI AND NO ONE HERE SAID ****!I HAVE BEEN CALLED UNEDUCATED,A RUDE ADOLESCENT,AND A SHARK(BY SOMONE WHO CALLED YOU A LIAR{WHEN YOU SPOTTED HIM BEFORE ANY OF US AS A CRACKPOT WHO WAS HIMSELF LYING AND MAKING FAKE POST}) AND DESPITE MY PLEADS THE MODS DID NOTHING TO HIM BESIDES SAY "I GOT MY EYE ON YOU".
> HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS!!!!!! REALLY!!!!! I'm pretty sure you work nights(my wife did for 20 years) get some sleep ,think about it,search beaslbob and see the BEATINGS even our mods gave him before banning!
> We don't all have to agree,but as much as you choose to believe the words of a manufacturer(purple up) and I have read their claims(right in line with info you provided)I don't believe it to be true either.It does not sustain my calcium levels as I stated I use kent turbo calcium also and have never had too much calcium.I'll add that when I don't use purple up my coralline on glass will turn green,although my calcium levels are still proper,so I wonder?This product claims to be algae accelarator on bottle.
> I appreciate info from all and if someone wants to attack me(as they did in "dingo ate my whatever"),I can handle myself and let others decide for themselves.Many thought my responses were proper and well worded.No mod ever told him to back off!But I don't see him here anymore either!


Fully rested here and I agree completely, Purple Up is not the best calcium supplement out there; I'm merely stating that it contains dissolved calcium. I'm well aware of the Beaslbob controversy as I was here for much of it. Thanks for the reminder though...sincerely...it never hurts to keep things in perspective. Beyond that I'd like to say that it's against the rules to discuss within a thread, the actions of a Moderator...which is why I haven't. I'm moving on from this topic...I said what I needed to say and stand by every word.


----------



## perm_dogg

Ha ha. Awesome. Facebook 2? Madness and CB have responded to EVERYTHING I have asked, which, the only reason I'm on a god damn fish tank forum, is to seek helpful advice so i dont waste my time with an expensive hobby such as the one we are all invested in. to chase around the internet looking for forums where people are banned and try to attack them is childish to say the least. You have had helpful tips for me, but they all seem to only appear when you're trying to go against RM's advice. That is stupid as hell. Who cares? You don't agree, you dont like someone? This aint the place for it! Either stick to the script or move on. There are OBVIOUSLY a million respectable sites where you can share your information. this is the one i chose and last time I checked, this thread, in particular, is one I started to ask questions about saltwater fish tanks!! Please, keep it professional or don't put in your two cents. I was doing just fine with the help i was getting. God damn. I cant believe I had to explain that. Ha ha. Wow.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Goby said:


> There'd likely never be a reason to dose both simultaneously. Both products will buffer but like CB said, one is more for the purpose of buffering and the other is more for the purpose of nutrition, (however it will still buffer).
> 
> I'm not familiar with _Reef Buffer Power_ but like _Purple Up_, it's probably derived from the calcium source of aragonite. Aragonite stores calcium and carbonate at equilibrium as Calcium Carbonate. Aragonite also holds trace elements like magnesium and strontium. How _Purple Up_ differs from other buffers is that some of it's calcium is in ionic form, meaning it's not compounded to anything...*meaning it's not calcium carbonate, it's just calcium*. Theoretically, this makes it a more versatile source of calcium. _Purple Up_ also has iodine in it. Most buffers do not contain iodine.
> 
> Basically, _Purple Up _is a source of not just calcium carbonate, but it's also a *source of FREE calcium* and iodine. Most other buffers contain only calcium carbonate.


You did not say anywhere in here thats it raises dissolved calcium!! You said it was a CALCIUM!! I was the one that said it only raised Dissolved Calcium!


----------



## Goby

Reefing Madness said:


> You did not say anywhere in here thats it raises dissolved calcium!! You said it was a CALCIUM!! I was the one that said it only raised Dissolved Calcium!


Ionic Calcium is calcium in it's purest form. Ionic calcium is calcium that's been dissolved away from other elements such as carbonate or oxide. Purple Up contains Ionic Calcium, which is the same thing as dissolved calcium. So when Purple Up is poured into the water, it raises the dissolved calcium levels regardless of whether or not there's already calcium in the water. That's what I said. Why that upsets you, is beyond me.


----------



## susankat

Stop Now, or I am closing this thread. Reefing madness one more outburst will not be tolerated. 

Beaslbob didn't get banned right away as our hands were tied. We finally got it done. I feel like reef is going into the same directions there to try and cause trouble for one person. Its not happening this time. And this time you got a neg feedback also.


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## Reefing Madness

Umm, because thats not what you said. Reread it again. And again and again. Show me in that post where the people would get Dissolved Calcium out of your rabble?


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## coralbandit

Hey so sorry perm dogg,this really only burns you!And is probly my fault for VOICING MY OPINION .Start another thread"continued appreciated help...."!
I really don't understand how bickering about technique or anyones belief in a manufacturers claim comes to personal annomosity.IS THE DOMINOS HEAT WAVE THE HOTTEST THING ON EARTH?Will someone who dis agrees be banned?REALLY!


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## Reefing Madness

Not for nothing, but just delete my posts and that outta take care of burning this thread.


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## Goby

perm_dogg said:


> Ha ha. Awesome. Facebook 2? Madness and CB have responded to EVERYTHING I have asked, which, the only reason I'm on a god damn fish tank forum, is to seek helpful advice so i dont waste my time with an expensive hobby such as the one we are all invested in. to chase around the internet looking for forums where people are banned and try to attack them is childish to say the least. You have had helpful tips for me, but they all seem to only appear when you're trying to go against RM's advice. That is stupid as hell. Who cares? You don't agree, you dont like someone? This aint the place for it! Either stick to the script or move on. There are OBVIOUSLY a million respectable sites where you can share your information. this is the one i chose and last time I checked, this thread, in particular, is one I started to ask questions about saltwater fish tanks!! Please, keep it professional or don't put in your two cents. I was doing just fine with the help i was getting. God damn. I cant believe I had to explain that. Ha ha. Wow.


I apologize permdog. That said, I believe I responded to your question about calcium supplements long before RM did. And honestly...I can't recall what else I've shared in this thread. But okay, I'll leave you three to yourselves.


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## susankat

coralbandit said:


> Hey so sorry perm dogg,this really only burns you!And is probly my fault for VOICING MY OPINION .Start another thread"continued appreciated help...."!
> I really don't understand how bickering about technique or anyones belief in a manufacturers claim comes to personal annomosity.IS THE DOMINOS HEAT WAVE THE HOTTEST THING ON EARTH?Will someone who dis agrees be banned?REALLY!


What causes the problem is the feedback in Itrader which is for buying, selling and trading. Not because one person doesn't like the other.


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## perm_dogg

Exactly! This isn't, and has never been, who's right and wrong. Close this thread? I found this website through a search engine!! Is there some sort of "helpful" website police sent here to regulate what goes on? This is all ridiculous. CB, don't even worry about me. At the end of the day, I'm going with advice from the people I trust. The one's that have had my back throughout. It's too bad any of us had to deal with this, but such is life. Maybe I should bring up politics and religion just to see if we can't continue to argue on this um...aquarium forum? No. It's all good folks. Let's stay on course here. Maybe I'll address everyone individually so we don't get any opinions mixed? Again. No. I'll have a new question about fish tanks today and I'm guessing the reason anyone even puts up with me is because I keep them coming, and I always will. I do that because I care to learn. I appreciate ANY advice I can get". That's the name of the damn thang. ha ha.


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## coralbandit

Goby said:


> The information I shared regarding _Purple Up_ was 100% accurate...and ironically, the picture RM posted of the label demonstrated that. Ionic Calcium *IS* Dissolved Calcium...it's the exact same thing. The terms are interchangeable. And since _Purple Up_ contains Ionic Calcium, when it's poured into an aquarium, it instantly raises dissolved calcium levels.
> 
> PurpleUp Home Page
> 
> Dissolved calcium, ionic calcium, free calcium, available calcium, unbound calcium, noncompounded calcium....ALL those terms mean the exact same thing. Perhaps RM misinterpreted the label to mean that ionic calcium has the ability to create dissolved calcium. I dunno. That's really here nor there...RM doesn't need to be rude to me. Telling me to "go back to the Holiday Inn Express?" You seemed just fine with him telling me that CB, no? And I didn't get upset, I merely thought enough was enough.
> The only thing more disturbing to me than RM's behavior in this forum, is your constant support of it CB. Where does that come from? RM isn't half the aquarist you are. You post from experience and heart and you display a genuine love for teaching others. You're the "go to man" on this site, not RM...don't forget that.


It was not nor is not my intention to "pick sides".My effort here is to provide accurate info.Many do things "contrary" to popular belief/or even knowledge,and still have sucess.That being said to quote THE BEST FRESHWATER MEMBER I EVER INTERACTED WITH(NAVIGATOR BLACK)"WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT WATER!"
I truly don't believe purple up is a replacement to calcium supplements(despite manufacterers claim),if I did I would not be adding a calcium supplement more often than purple up.I also think taking what you believe and contemplating the rest(as opposed to leaving it) is a safe avenue to travel.
Sorry to say "never mind life"(as we all strive to preserve it{possibly none more than you Goby(personally and professionally)}),but reef tanks are hardly a place to "experiment " or find out the "hard way".I'm not willing to risk my investment(all you salts know where I'm at but those who just read to learn THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN A 75G TANK{MANY}).My money comes and goes,so sometimes I can invest more than others,but to contrdict the beginning of this paragraph I certainly cherish the life I can support.
I'm no chemist(told NAV im my melanoma thread "I never even took biology back in high school"(1980!),but I have had salt water tanks starting in early 1980's and have alway had fish(fresh) since then.I changed water back in the 80's and I still do(I do what I know works).Many thought the photos of my 75 is way they want their tanks to look,but I can't even imagine how it would look if purple up was my only calcium supplement.I think many missed my thought that as I grow more(coralline) I will need more supplement for it.Also the mention that when I don't add purple up my coralline on glass turns green even though my CA is a proper level.
I do post from the heart,I WISH EVERYONES TANKS WERE BETTER THAN MINE SO MAYBE SOMEONE COULD HELP ME!I don't have problems that can't be fairly simply solved(common keeper I am),but I also don't believe every word of any manufacturer or person.My old boss told me even in outright lies there is probly 5% truth!Gotta base a story on something!
I really think/believe that purple up "SETTLES"on surfaces and does not stay in the water column(it's how the product works).I know they say different(5% truth 95% lie),but I have never experienced it.
I do have RMs back!He provides info with links and backup proof.That doesn't mean you don't have knowledge or VALUABLE insight.I learn everyday,sometimes by others mistakes,sometimes by the one who knows what no one else has learned yet.I know it seems he picks on you,I've beat people who contradicted what I know on freshwater threads.Often we don't know we are wrong,or that what we know is something no one else will get.I'm not fine if what was said really upset you,but I stand by I don't think his post was out of line.
And the Itrader set up here sucks since IF I choose to leave positive,or negative feed back I have to say I bought,sold or whatever to do so.I have given feed back to several saying I was the buyer(I geuss I bought their info)
when I never bought a thing!Never gave much thought to it ,just seemed to be how it worked,maybe I was all wrong too?I was only trying to give feed back,and have yet to ever be able to read anyone elses or my own after received or sent. 
Sorry to ramble probly not helping PD and HIS thread!


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## majerah1

Closing as per OPs request.


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