# Need Opinions and Help



## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Okay, as I stated in my intro topic, it's been awhile since I've had an aquarium. I have a chest o' drawers that has some older stuff on it that I'm planning on either moving around or just getting rid of in general. I think it's about 2.5-3' wide and about 2' deep. There is a plug right behind said chest o' drawers. My questions are:

1) What size tank would do well for a beginning tank? This is the first tank that I'll have run by myself. Something like 15-30 gallons I think.

2) Aside from the tank, what other things will I need to invest in?

3) What fish would be really good for a first aquarium? I'm looking for something that's hearty, easy to care for, and good looking. Also, how many?

4) Algae eaters or no?

5) Any other helpful tips?

I really want this to be a successful investment for me. I'm planning on making my room quite relaxing and this is step number 1.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

Most people recommend getting the biggest tank you can reasonably get, since the larger volume helps keep the water stable, as far as chemicals and heating and such go. Since it sounds like you have the space, anything over 15 gallons would work. Also, a liquid test kit, they're are much more accurate than the strip tests.

let's see...a quick list would be heater, filter, chemicals to treat the water (remove chlorine and stuff), substrate like gravel or sand, plants (I _really _ recommend live plants, they've got a lot going for them. Plastic plants work too, as far as decorations go, but they don't have the benefits of live plants (those are explained somewhere on here, lol) Oh yes, a light would be useful too, lol.

As far as first fish go, I recommend some of the easy and hardy tetras like black skirts. Very hardy, and they've got a lot of personality. White cloud minnows are another good choice, and they don't need a heater since they're a cold water fish. Very pretty, peaceful little things. Zebra danios are also popular, but sometimes they can be too playful for other fish. 
All of those are schooling fish, and should eventually be in groups of 5 or more, but for cycling, I would suggest just 2-3 while cycling, and leave a two week gap between adding more fish. Don't add more than a couple fish at once. A fishless cycle would be safer for your fish, and let you stock faster (but still keep the two week gap so that bacteria has time to develop to the right levels).

No algae eaters until you're cycled, and even then if you do things right, you won't need much more than a good, through weekly cleaning to keep your tank looking good. However, if you notice a persistent algae problem, first try to find ways to solve it without adding an algae eater. They tend to cause as many problems as they solve, since what goes in one ends comes out another. Don't get one just for what benefits they might have, but get one because you like them as a fish/shrimp. Don't forget to calculate stocking with them, some like plecos and siamese algae eaters can get 4-5" or larger (never get a common pleco, they can get 18"!)

I think that's it for now, I'm sure everyone else will have hints as well!


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Kehy said:


> Most people recommend getting the biggest tank you can reasonably get, since the larger volume helps keep the water stable, as far as chemicals and heating and such go. Since it sounds like you have the space, anything over 15 gallons would work. Also, a liquid test kit, they're are much more accurate than the strip tests.
> 
> let's see...a quick list would be heater, filter, chemicals to treat the water (remove chlorine and stuff), substrate like gravel or sand, plants (I _really _ recommend live plants, they've got a lot going for them. Plastic plants work too, as far as decorations go, but they don't have the benefits of live plants (those are explained somewhere on here, lol) Oh yes, a light would be useful too, lol.
> 
> ...


My house is kept at a constant 69-74 and the aquarium is out of direct sunlight so it sounds like the minows are a good idea since I won't need to invest in a heater for them to survive (right?).

Are there any good starter aquarium kits out there? 

Also...explain the cycling and stocking process you mentioned?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Mr. Miyagi said:


> 1. Are there any good starter aquarium kits out there?
> 2. Also...explain the cycling and stocking process you mentioned?


1. Check your local classifieds. Craigslist is always a great place to start. Many people are selling complete 15-30 gallon setups (some even with fish) for $60 or less.

2. Without going into too much detail, you need to establish colonies of nitrifying bacteria in your tank to process ammonia from your fish into nitrate. Ammonia will kill them, and nitrate will not. To do this, you'll need a source of ammonia. Fish can be a source (though I don't recommend it), you can also dose pure ammonia but I prefer using a piece of raw seafood as a source. You add the source (daily doses of ammonia, if you do the ammonia route), and let the bacteria naturally colonize your tank. The process takes time, so patience and a good test kit are vital. Your tank will be cycled when, after testing and a few weeks, you get 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite, and 20-80 ppm nitrate, 24 hours after dosing ammonia. Then, add fish in slow batches so you won't create a mini-cycle. I would say no more than three per week.

Source:
The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

idealy your going to want a heater anyway so your temperature stays constant, otherwise you might have problems with ich and whatnot, so the minnows might be best to get it going but i'd get one down the road atleast, also i'd go with a 20g long or a 30g tank, you'll thank yourself in the future, you'll have more freedom on what you can do later down the road.

GET A LIQUID TEST KIT- it really is important and worth it, most here use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, the cheapest place i've found is petmountain.com for $24.00 including shipping.

for filtration you want to get a filter that is around 2x that rated for your tank, it'll be less work on you and since most tanks are overstocked anyway so its better.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> "you need to establish colonies of nitrifying bacteria in your tank to process ammonia from your fish into nitrate. Ammonia will kill them, and nitrate will not.
> 
> [/url]


sorry but thats not right, well you are but your not, ammonia's are more leathal to your fish than nitrites which are more leathal than nitrates.

nitrates are still leathal to your fish but not as much, it will still kill your fish if you dont do water changes or if your someone speacial like beaslbob over there.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

1) What size tank would do well for a beginning tank? This is the first tank that I'll have run by myself. Something like 15-30 gallons I think.

Big as possible. I reccomend going at least 20 gallons. If you dont, you'll regret it.

2) Aside from the tank, what other things will I need to invest in?

Test kit, filter, heater, lights, substrate, plants, fish

3) What fish would be really good for a first aquarium? I'm looking for something that's hearty, easy to care for, and good looking. Also, how many?

Danios, a school of them. Depends on the size of the tank, as for how many. There are a lot of fish out there, do some research learn what goes with what else and what will fit in your tank without over doing it.

4) Algae eaters or no?
Do not get a common pleco, they get huge. If you want one, go for it, but be prepared to get food for it as they will starve when there is no algae in the tank. They also require wood for digestion


5) Any other helpful tips?
Patience. and lots of it. learn about the nitrogen cycle, decide how you want to cycle. I do suggest goin with live plants, they are a lot of fun and look great. Skip the tacky fake decor and go for a natural look. Do a LOT of research and hopefully avoid a lot of newbie mistakes, and ask questions before you do something, not after. That way you have time to make a rational decision. Good luck!


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

If ya can't find a 29G complete on CL for less than $50.00... ya aint trying... That would include tank/hood/light/filter/heater. Stand would be up to you but usually goes with the tank because their either upgrading or getting out completely...
Fish?... If you're looking for activity.. a couple of schools of tetras.... Cardinals.. and black neons... If you like the serene nature of others... I'd go with 4 Angels.. and 6 cards... The Angels will outgrow the tank after a year or more but by then, you'll surely have MTS!.. (Multi-Tank-Syndrome)... 
In feb I bought my 1st tank in 25 years... a 29 complete for $40.00 with like 80 guppies... My sig needs updating now.. Bill in Va.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

SuckMyCichlids said:


> sorry but thats not right, well you are but your not, ammonia's are more leathal to your fish than nitrites which are more leathal than nitrates.
> 
> nitrates are still leathal to your fish but not as much, it will still kill your fish if you dont do water changes or if your someone speacial like beaslbob over there.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Nitrates are lethal but in extreme levels and only for sustained periods. You always have nitrates present even in planted tanks, although some can get down to non-detectable levels. Ammonia or nitrites at any level, especially if at sustained levels will kill. No need to worry if one is more lethal than the other.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

he said that ammonia will kill them, nitrates wont, i was just stating that nitrates are indeed still leathal to the fish and can still kill them.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

williemcd said:


> Fish?... If you're looking for activity.. a couple of schools of tetras.... Cardinals.. and black neons... If you like the serene nature of others... I'd go with 4 Angels.. and 6 cards... The Angels will outgrow the tank after a year or more but by then, you'll surely have MTS!.. (Multi-Tank-Syndrome)...
> In feb I bought my 1st tank in 25 years... a 29 complete for $40.00 with like 80 guppies... My sig needs updating now.. Bill in Va.


cardinals are a bit fragile for my taste, it might be easier to start with a different type of tetra. I wouldn't put angels in anything less than a 55 gallon since they can get so big. Yeah, it might be fine while they're small, but I tend to only put fish that can stay in the tank, in a tank. 
Also, in my area, I'm lucky if I can find a 20 gallon setup for under $75, and usually much more. Might just be because I'm in a college town and people need money, but tanks can be obnoxiously expensive.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

if you have a petco around you alot of times they have the $1 per gallon sale, i got my 40g breeder and a 10g for 50 bucks plus tax


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

SuckMyCichlids said:


> he said that ammonia will kill them, nitrates wont, i was just stating that nitrates are indeed still leathal to the fish and can still kill them.


When you think about it, NO they aren't lethal. A fish can die from a lot of things. If they can live their entire lives in 40-60ppm of nitrates would you consider nitrates lethal? When you say he is wrong in what he said, that just isn't true. It has to be an extreme situation. Nitrates aren't lethal, but very high level, prolonged exposure is.

If you look at all the stuff that is in the air we breathe there are many lethal particles in it. But to say it is deadly to breathe is sort of out there. Higher the lethal substance, higher the chance. Sort of the same thing with nitrates in the water and fish.


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Okay...so lets say I get this from Petsmart along with a high quality testing kit and pack of filters, a bag of natural colored rocks (same as what is pictured), one or two internal little habitat like things, a multiple live plants similar to what is pictured. My first step in order to get my aquarium set for fish would be to ____?

I'm sorry if I seem a little hard headed but it takes a bit more explaining in, to put it simply, idiot terms for me to really get the picture as to what I need to do. By the way, my brain has not functioned right for the past three days due to pain killers that I'm taking because of my wisdom teeth removal. 

Obviously step one is to get everything and start putting everything together in my tank. What do I do next?


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## Marci99205 (Dec 13, 2011)

You might want to buy something (i.e. glass) to go on top of your chest o' drawers. I just had a 30x17 cut for $40. Depending on if you want to protect the surface.


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Marci99205 said:


> You might want to buy something (i.e. glass) to go on top of your chest o' drawers. I just had a 30x17 cut for $40. Depending on if you want to protect the surface.


Will probably use some left over felt strips I have.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Set everything up just like you would be adding fish, but don't add fish. Instead, add either daily doses of ammonia, a raw piece of seafood, or daily doses of flake food which will all "seed" the tank with ammonia. Then, wait until bacteria colonies set up in your tank (usually takes between a week and a month or so), THEN when everything's running smoothly, add fish.

The reason I said ammonia is lethal and nitrates are not is because I was REALLY simplifying everything. Nitrates will kill in very high concentrations, but it only takes a few ppm's of ammonia to really wreck a tank. And nitrites are worse, but I didn't even list them as the intermediate level of the nitrogen cycle for the sake of simplification. Sorry for the confusion.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

do a beaslbob build.


my .o2


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> Set everything up just like you would be adding fish, but don't add fish. Instead, add either daily doses of ammonia, a raw piece of seafood, or daily doses of flake food which will all "seed" the tank with ammonia. Then, wait until bacteria colonies set up in your tank (usually takes between a week and a month or so), THEN when everything's running smoothly, add fish.
> 
> The reason I said ammonia is lethal and nitrates are not is because I was REALLY simplifying everything. Nitrates will kill in very high concentrations, but it only takes a few ppm's of ammonia to really wreck a tank. And nitrites are worse, but I didn't even list them as the intermediate level of the nitrogen cycle for the sake of simplification. Sorry for the confusion.


Just going off of my limited knowledge, water tests will prove when the water is good to go? What about PH balance?


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Great advise. I only wish to add, we here enjoy pictures. You must take pictures and post in your thread. There is a Tank Build forum feel free to start a tank build (with pics of course) 

Welcome to the hobby.


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

I plan on posting many. 

EDIT: Top Fin® 29 Gallon Starter Kit - Gift Shop - Fish - PetSmart I'm thinking about getting that one instead of the 30+ gallon which will fit better on top of my chest o' drawers.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I wouldn't screw with your pH too much. Peat moss in the filter will lower pH, and a bag of crushed coral will raise it (I think). But they're only temporary fixes. Instead, I would determine the level that the pH will be at in my tank and plan my fish selections accordingly. Rams, angels, and cichlids enjoy softer and more acidic (lower pH) water, while many tetras, rasboras, etc. can handle more alkaline waters. Do your research! I've found it helps pass the time while your tank cycles.


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

Okay, now that I've got the basics down in regards to cycling my tank, what other tools of the trade should I invest in?


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> "Nitrates aren't lethal, but very high level, prolonged exposure is."
> QUOTE]
> 
> in other words, Nirtates can still be leathal. which is what i was saying, thats it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

SuckMyCichlids said:


> jrman83 said:
> 
> 
> > "Nitrates aren't lethal, but very high level, prolonged exposure is."
> ...


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> SuckMyCichlids said:
> 
> 
> > Can you just stop? Bleach can be lethal also. One drop and fish may be fine...drop in a gallon and they are all dead. Your point is taken, but it makes no sense to point out that oh by the way, that can be lethal.....when even your tank has a level of nitrates in it. As Gizmo said, 1ppm of ammonia or nitrite can kill your fish. Can you get the difference? You didnt really stop to point out that they had to be really high for a prolonged period, you just flat out said someone else was wrong and maybe that was your only intention to begin with. It would have been perfect if you could have taken a little bit of time to supply a little bit of knowledge behind what you originally said. That would have been awesome. You can try to stay on that high horse if you like...but what you're saying just isn't true.
> ...


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Mr. Miyagi said:


> Okay, now that I've got the basics down in regards to cycling my tank, what other tools of the trade should I invest in?


FWIW The only tools I need are

1) tank
2) substrate
3) plants
4) fish
5) water
6) light.

And I don't worry about pH and other stuff.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> FWIW The only tools I need are
> 
> 1) tank
> 2) substrate
> ...


How are any of these tools?


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## Mr. Miyagi (Dec 21, 2011)

^lol. Is Petsmart a reputable place to buy fish from? The only other place around here now is Wal-Mart. There used to be a dedicated pet store where they specialized in fish but it shut down about three or four years ago.


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