# Help please!!!



## Bunniez0124 (Apr 16, 2011)

Well to start off I am a kinda some what newbie if you will!  I have a 55 gal tank with 2 DG,3 kuhli,3 Oto cats,2 scissor,and 2 mystery snail. Now for my question! I have been told that I SHOULD NOT be vacuuming my gravel because I will "remove the bacteria". I Only do a vacuuming ONCE a month, and a spot vacuum if you will once every other water change. Is this true that it will harm my fish? Please help.. Also there are hydra and planaria. Any and ALL info on the vacuuming will be GREAT!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well the hydra and planaria is caused by to much food and waste in the substrate. You can vac 1/2 at each water change with no harm to beneficial bacteria. The bacteria is mainly in your filter, its also on all deco in the tank, plants, and the walls of the tank.


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## Bunniez0124 (Apr 16, 2011)

Thanks !!!! I keep getting told by someone that of I vacuum the gravel it will take all the bacteria out and I will end up having to "re-cycle", and I was not sure if this was true or not.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Not true.. Over vaccuming is bad though, the bacteria does need food. as was mentioned, there is bacteria on all your other stuff also. If you feed just the right amount, you may not have to vaccum at all.


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

phys said:


> Not true.. Over vaccuming is bad though, the bacteria does need food. as was mentioned, there is bacteria on all your other stuff also. If you feed just the right amount, you may not have to vaccum at all.


This is a completely untrue statement. Please don't post things like this. Bacteria don't feed off of uneaten food in the gravel, they feed off of the ammonia produced both from the food decomposing and the ammonia excreted by the fish through their gills, moreso from the ammonia excretion. There's no reason (and no excuse) to have an excess buildup of sludge in your gravel, much less a 'maintenance level' of sludge either. Planaria come about when the gravel in an aquarium is exceptionally dirty, and being that the OP also has hydras, I'm willing to be there's a fair amount of overfeeding going on.

A gravel vac has more functions than simply removing waste, it tumbles the gravel particles together and prevents scale from building up, which would prevent a proper biofilm from forming and supporting bacteria. It helps bring oxygen down into gravel, as well. Not doing gravel vacs is a sure way to cause health issues with your aquarium, just as not doing water changes.

To the OP:

I typically recommend to my customers that they do a water change and a quick gravel vac every other week (for most aquariums, some require a different schedule). Assuming the tank isn't being overfed, and you're diligent in your gravel cleanings, you won't get very much out of it each time, but it's still important to do on a regular basis. Change out about 25% of your water (or more, if you're feeling confident; I do 50%/week on my aquariums).

As for the planaria and hydra...the hydra should clear up once you deny them a source of food. You should severely cut back on your feeding; every two days, no more than the fish can eat in a minute. Make sure you put the food in a few flakes at a time, so you can make sure the fish are actually eating it all. If you dump a bunch of food at the top, half of it gets blown down into the gravel and filter, and causes a mess.

The planaria may be a bit more of an issue. The standard treatment is cleaning the gravel daily for around a week, properly dosing the aquarium with aquarium salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons), and dosing with Quick Cure after every gravel vac. With any luck, this will fix your planaria problem.

Good luck!


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

"This is a completely untrue statement. Please don't post things like this. Bacteria don't feed off of uneaten food in the gravel, they feed off of the ammonia produced both from the food decomposing and the ammonia excreted by the fish through their gills, moreso from the ammonia excretion. There's no reason (and no excuse) to have an excess buildup of sludge in your gravel, much less a 'maintenance level' of sludge either. Planaria come about when the gravel in an aquarium is exceptionally dirty, and being that the OP also has hydras, I'm willing to be there's a fair amount of overfeeding going on."

Dont know where you got this. I did not state it eats the uneaten food. True i did not say it feeds off the ammonia from the decomposing food but ammonia, is food. There is also no reason to have a "pristine" gravel bed unless you're OCD. My statement was not "completely untrue" and i shall post this again despite your mis-read thoughts. If you vaccum continuously, then the left over stuff does not have time to decompose and your bacteria has very little to feed off of. Then, if you ever go on vacation and allow your tank to build up with material, your bio-filter will not have enough establishment to support this and things will go wrong. Next time be sure you know exactly what is being said before you go so far as to outright say they are wrong.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

Vaccume at every water change.


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

phys said:


> Dont know where you got this. I did not state it eats the uneaten food. True i did not say it feeds off the ammonia from the decomposing food but ammonia, is food. There is also no reason to have a "pristine" gravel bed unless you're OCD. My statement was not "completely untrue" and i shall post this again despite your mis-read thoughts. If you vaccum continuously, then the left over stuff does not have time to decompose and your bacteria has very little to feed off of. Then, if you ever go on vacation and allow your tank to build up with material, your bio-filter will not have enough establishment to support this and things will go wrong. Next time be sure you know exactly what is being said before you go so far as to outright say they are wrong.


That's _exactly_ what you're inferring by saying that the bacteria rely on decomposing food in your gravel to provide the ammonia they need to survive, which is, as I've already told you, an untrue statement. Your bacteria subsist just fine off of the ammonia excreted by your fish, and while it's not necessary to have a pristine gravel bed, keeping it as clean as possible with regular gravel vacs is a key component of keeping a healthy aquarium.

It takes a long time for bacteria to die off in an aquarium, especially if that aquarium has fish in it, regardless of how little or how much mulm there is in the gravel. You're still wrong, and I'm still calling you on it. Sorry, but them's the breaks.


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## rtbob (Jul 18, 2010)

With the setup of my tanks gravel vacuuming with my weekly water changes is not an option. I remove 50% of the water from the water column weekly with no vacuuming.

Every six weeks I remove all the stuff in the tank and rinse it. At this time I do a through vacuuming. 

The schedule I follow maintains my Nitrate level at 15-40ppm.

As you can see from the previous posts opinions vary on the need for frequent gravel vacs. 

I would suggest that if it is possible to do, some of the substrate should be vacuumed with every water change. If your in my shoes where it isn't feasible to do so, than every so often you should remove all the stuff in your tank and do a deep, thorough cleaning of your substrate.

As far as gravel vacuuming removing bacteria from the gravel here is an exert from an article written by Carl Strohmeyer.

Begin exert:

Contrary to some information thrown around without much research, vacuuming the layers of gravel that contain aerobic (nitrifying) bacteria will NOT destroy the bacterial colonies as research (that really is not that new) has shown these bacteria to secrete a glue like substance to the media they cling to and a gravel vacuum will NOT dislodge these bacteria.

End exert: 

The entire article can be found at:

Aquarium Cleaning; Reasons & Methods, Frequency, Siphon Troubleshooting, more.

In closing find what works for you. Monitor your nitrates and base the frequency and percentage of water changed based on the nitrate level.

Good Luck.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

No where did i say it would die off.. i said it wouldnt establish. Many people keep healthy aquariums only vaccuming once a month. I did not say that it ONLY feeds off of decaying matter and i did not infer that. YOU inferred that. Dont put words where they're not. I did infer through a previous post however, that if enough bacteria is not established, and at some point in time your bioload increases beyond the point where your bio-filter is inadequate to sustain a good balance, then things will go wrong. So keeping the bio-filter at a minimum is something I wouldnt suggest. I agree that too much stuff in the gravel will cause things to get to unhealthy levels for the tank and it does need to be cleaned occasionally. That's that and i'm done defending myself and what i said. I'm not 100% right, you're not 100% right. 

Do what you find is best for you system and your tank. Nothing that you hear on this forum is 100% exactly what you should do. Experience takes you far and everyone here is helping you by suggesting what has worked for them. There are no laws to fish keeping, only good habits.


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

I think the problem is you're misunderstanding what a biofilter actually is. It's not the load of sludge in your gravel, it's the level of bacteria colonizing your aquarium. It's not a static thing, it fluctuates every day of the year, but it keeps itself in balance. As the bioload in your aquarium increases, so too does the level of bacteria; if you're being intelligent and not adding too much to your aquarium at once, that level of bacteria will adjust to fit the increased bioload. If you go on vacation for a week and your fish aren't excreting as much ammonia, then the bacterial level will die back to match the available foodsource.

We've already dragged this off-topic enough. The discussion is done.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

thanks for the repetition


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

phys said:


> Not true.. Over vaccuming is bad though, the bacteria does need food. as was mentioned, there is bacteria on all your other stuff also. If you feed just the right amount, you may not have to vaccum at all.


I think this is one of those subjects that is a matter of different ways of doing things and different tank setups. For example many people with planted tanks don't vac at all. In a lightly stocked tank little maintenance is needed. I think it would be hard to clean the tank to the point that the bacteria have no food but in theory I suppose it's possible.

If the OP is having trouble with hydra and planaria then more vacuuming and less food is likely a good idea in this case.


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## qwillpen (Mar 30, 2011)

Vacuuming is actually really good for your fish and should be done with every water change. Don't worry about removing bacteria. Your filter and substrate, even after vacuuming, have all the helpful bacteria you need to keep your tank in cycle. Vaccuuming regularly will also prevent anaerobic pockets forming in the substrate, which can be lethal to your fish. Vacuum the gravel deep and the live planted areas lightly.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I myself dont vacuum at all.All my tanks are planted,and a vacuum would uproot them.I do however feed lightly and do more waterchanges than most.And I am also overfiltered,in a sense the filter is rated for a 180 gallon,and is on a 29,lol.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Scuff said:


> Not doing gravel vacs is a sure way to cause health issues with your aquarium, just as not doing water changes.


Wellllll.....while we are on the subject of incorrect statements....you may want to rethink this one actually.

A gravel vac in no way is needed and/or required. It is just a "recommended" thing to do with all the mulm and detritus that builds up. People with planted tanks (myself included) hardly ever touch a vac. The goodies below the surface are just what the plants want and need.

Is it critical to do? Nah. If you want peace of mind, then sure, go for it. Unless you are breeding a certain species, I surely wouldn't worry about. I will say from time to time, I give my tanks a good vac, but the ones that get it are invert breeders and high TDS level impact that greatly. So, as a breeder, we have to keep these things in check.

My other community tanks don't get touched. The plants will take care of the converted materials.

So to answer the OPs question, a gravel vac will not cause any harm to your tank (unless you suck up a fishy) and there is no such thing as "over vac'ing".


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Scuff said:


> ...properly dosing the aquarium with aquarium salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons), and dosing with Quick Cure after every gravel vac.


And no offense ... really ....

But i'm not even sure how to respond on this advice. So I'll will do the proper thing and just let this one go and someone else can bring it up if they wish.

Sry.


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## 8878 (Apr 15, 2011)

I do a 10% water change every other day, using a gravel vac. The Fishies love the clean new water, they get all excited when i vacuum lol.


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

James0816 said:


> And no offense ... really ....
> 
> But i'm not even sure how to respond on this advice. So I'll will do the proper thing and just let this one go and someone else can bring it up if they wish.
> 
> Sry.


No, I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why this is a poor statement. Properly dosing with aquarium salt can help alleviate infestations of invertebrate parasites/baddies. Quick Cure can also make short work of the planaria as well. It's a treatment for the current issue, not a maintenance program.


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Wellllll.....while we are on the subject of incorrect statements....you may want to rethink this one actually.
> 
> A gravel vac in no way is needed and/or required. It is just a "recommended" thing to do with all the mulm and detritus that builds up. People with planted tanks (myself included) hardly ever touch a vac. The goodies below the surface are just what the plants want and need.
> 
> ...


You're also saying this under the assumption that every single aquarium has plants in it, which most certainly is not the case. It'd be nice if everyone used live plants, but not everyone does, and if you don't have plants in your aquarium, why would you let material sit in your gravel and degrade over time, thus polluting your tank? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Gravel vacuums get that nasty stuff out of your gravel, and help keep the gravel layer turned over and healthy. _Not_ gravel vac'ing on tanks is a terrible idea, unless we're talking about heavily planted aquariums, in which case yes...it's a bad idea to do so. There is no hard and fast rule about doing it, but it's in my professional opinion that it's beneficial to almost every single aquarium, to one extent or another.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Scuff said:


> You're also saying this under the assumption that every single aquarium has plants in it, which most certainly is not the case. It'd be nice if everyone used live plants, but not everyone does, and if you don't have plants in your aquarium, why would you let material sit in your gravel and degrade over time, thus polluting your tank? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Gravel vacuums get that nasty stuff out of your gravel, and help keep the gravel layer turned over and healthy. _Not_ gravel vac'ing on tanks is a terrible idea, unless we're talking about heavily planted aquariums, in which case yes...it's a bad idea to do so. There is no hard and fast rule about doing it, but it's in my professional opinion that it's beneficial to almost every single aquarium, to one extent or another.


Absolutely not assuming anything actually. I fully understand that less than half the aquariums hobbyists keep are planted. Probably even less.

This can be said in the same way...it is your assumption that every tank is not planted.

You're last sentence summed it up nicely with one word ... *opinion*.

I'm definately not going to argue the point of an opinion as it's just that. Your opinion and mine differ as well as others.

Takes me back to something else, what works for you might not work me and vise versa.

Everything in time gets broken down and into the water column. This is where the water change comes in. Since our tanks are not like the natural habitat, we have to turn over the water manually. The "goodies" underneath actually become a nutrient rich substance, not toxic plague. The only issue that would arrise out of it is if you didn't do water changes. Then you have problems.

Again, I'm not saying that one doesn't need to do them and I'm not saying that one should be doing them. Environment dependant might be a better way of classing it. User discretion. I like that one better. ;o)

And to say to use salt and Quick Cure to clear up Planaria? Again...Really? Good old fashioned routine maintenance will take care of that. Not all species are tolerant of salt to begin with. Even if you do decide to treat with anything, Fen is a much safer solution.

Once again, this is my .02 on the subject and my sole opinion. This is not a slam on any one individual.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

There is a lot of good advice here, but we are using the op's thread for a discussion on whether or not the gravel vac is needed or not. The op's question has been answered, and I feel that this discussion should be put into its own thread. Would make a good read for a lot of beginners.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

susankat said:


> There is a lot of good advice here, but we are using the op's thread for a discussion on whether or not the gravel vac is needed or not. The op's question has been answered, and I feel that this discussion should be put into its own thread. Would make a good read for a lot of beginners.


x2


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