# Plants in 135g tank - advice needed



## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

i am in the process of setting up a 135g tank for community fish and Discus. i would like to set this up with three large pieces of driftwood and as many plants as possible to make it pretty and enjoyable.

However, i was not planning on CO2 setups etc. 

i am going by the advice of a local LFS who seems to have a lot of years of experience and offers practical advice. He tells me i can have all the plants i want with undergravel filter and an external cannister filter.

When i called the freshwaterauarium.com owner to see if i can order plant package from him, he tells me i would absolutely require some form of CO2 for plants to survive and not break down. his inputs are very logical as well and somewhat conflicting with the LFS guy's advice.

So, i am confused! the question is: can i set up the 135g tank with plants and not bother about CO2 setup?....i am a novice and don't want to introduce too many variables.

appreciate your inputs!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Rythm said:


> 1. LFS clerk tells me i can have all the plants i want with undergravel filter and an external cannister filter.
> 
> 2. the question is: can i set up the 135g tank with plants and not bother about CO2 setup?


1. I would not recommend an under gravel filter in a planted tank because most plants don't do very well with water moving around their roots.

2. You could, but it's not recommended. CO2 concentrations naturally occuring in water reach only about 3 ppm, while injected CO2 can boost that concentration to 30 ppm or higher. For a tank that big, look into a pressurized CO2 system, since DIY yeast fermentation won't be very effective at pumping a lot of CO2 into the tank. Of course, you could put in a LOT of low maintenance plants like java fern and anubias, but if you want to grow the really pretty stuff, you'll want CO2. Lastly, don't do CO2 unless you're getting some awesome lighting too, otherwise the plants will not be able to fully utilize boosted levels of CO2.

What substrate are you using? And what plants do you have your eyes on?


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

re your question on substrate and plants:

at this time, i am advised to just do aquarium gravel although the plant folks i called are recommending pea gravel.

re plants, although i love the variety that comes with planted tanks, i am ok going with safer choices if i can avoid the learning curve associated with CO2 etc., unless i can get someone to teach me and help me with my setup!

anyone in the San Jose, CA area willing to help?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

From what I have read on a few different sites, UGF with plants may or may not be recommended, but it is being done today and still more that do it with little issue that I have read about. You could search some of those sites and get tons of info, largely agumentative discussions (including some here I think), on whether or not it is recommended.

You can do a planted tank of any size without CO2 as long as the type of light you get is not too overpowering. The higher light you get, the more the need for CO2 occurs. Just go with standard flor. bulbs and shoot for less than 2 watts per gallon (roughly). Start with that and maybe move up later.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Pea gravel is pretty basic for plants. Consider some sphagnum peat moss, play sand, and THEN the pea gravel on top. Plants like sand the best because they can really sink their roots into it and grab on. The peat moss is to add nutrients as it decomposes


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## Alaizabelle (Mar 4, 2011)

I would definitely advise against the undergravel filter if you are wanting to plant the tank! Even if you found some plants that wouldn't mind the water running around in their roots, then pretty soon their root systems would clog up the undergravel system :/ Not very fun (I've seen this happen, it wasn't pretty cleanup!) 

As for the CO2, none of my tanks have any running, and I am able to grow everything that I've tried so far (I've got around 30 or so different plants, some were suggested high light but are doing fine in medium light) You just have to be careful with what type of lights you are running and for how long.

I'm up north from you a bit! Near Modesto  If you are ever near the Bay Area, I've heard of wonderful planted tank stores there!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I've also heard that UGFs need a regular overhaul every 6-12 months...


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

I thought UGF's went out long ago!... I currently have a 75, 30, 125 all planted with standard lighting.. 6700K' T8's... I would be at the point of selling off the prolific plants but I've got a 155 sitting in the "man-cave" temporarily housing a rescued 12" pacu... It is the future home to my discus so will be utilizing all my excess plants to populate that tank.
Pea Gravel?.. Who ever recommended that to you should be avoided at all costs in the future. The grains are too large and allow food and waste to accumulate... You'd probably have to thoroughly dig it up periodicly.
Play ground sand?.. Avoid that at all costs too!.. The granular make up of that sand is all over the map.. From minuscule to large... Go to a swimming pool supply store and purchase a bag of Pool Filter Sand. This sand is graded to have a consistent grain diameter of between .45 - .55 mm... This sand will not compact down like play sand. This sand is sized to allow for the passage of water... When you have to siphon off any excess fish waste with a python, the sand will go about 1/2 way up the column and then drop down to the tank floor.. 
Bill in Va.


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## fishman81 (Jan 12, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> I've also heard that UGFs need a regular overhaul every 6-12 months...


not sure on this, but tanks i've seen that my uncle has have gone years and he's swore by UGF's. he is from the old school a bit, but uses canister's and other filters as well but in years i've never heard of him doing an overhaul on his 75g w/UGF. Then again in this example he had two of the biggest tetra whisper filters you can buy in conjunction with 5 powerheads (cheap walmart ones). I've had my 55g setup for about 8 months, no overhaul needed so far.

cHRIS


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I have a 180 gallon planted tank without CO2 and the plants are doing fine. I have Jungle Val, Willow Hygro, Sunset Hygro, Dwarf Sag and Crypt spreading all over. I am useing Peat moss and floor dry for my substrate with no problems.


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks Archer772. good to hear. are you using undergravel filter? how long have the plants been in the tank?


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I dont think UG's should be used in planted tanks and I am useing 2 cannister filters. The tank was setup in about Feburary this year and I had the usuall algea blooms and a major cyno bloom that is gone now. I started with 4 Jungle vals and now there are about 15 and I gave a friend 3-4, I started with 2 crypts and now have about 12-15 and I started with 1 willow hygro and it keeps growing out of the water and I have had to trim it back 4-5 times and it is plenty thick enough for me. I am running 2 4 foot T-5's staggered with individual reflectors. I have about 1 inch of Peat Moss and I think it was 2 1/2 bags of floor dry from TSC and the floor dry is just 100% fullers earth that is baked clay so I have maybe $25 into my substrate for a 180.


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I dont have any pics of my 180 but this is a pic from my 120 when I had it setup to let you see what the floor dry looks like


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

thaks for the picture...pardon my ignorance...i am not aware of what TSC is...this looks like gravel to me?


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tractor Supply Co
This is the product I am useing

Safe T Sorb Oil Absorbent, 40 lb. - 0800989 | Tractor Supply Company


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

got it! did you prefer this to more traditional aquarium gravel because of the clay content? makes sense...does it not affect the ph in anyway?


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I am not sure about what the clay did but with the peatmoss and the 4 hunks of drift wood it has helped to lower the PH and even tannin stain the water a little. I am keeping angels, cardinal tetras, corie cats and bristle nose plecos and bala sharks so I wanted to keep my PH a little lower and I like the look of the tannins in the water.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The STS shouldn't alter your ph. People do place clay in the bottom of their tanks to boost iron content as a fairly common practice in setting up a planted tank and the STS has like 4 types of baked clay in it. Plants grow really well in it, no doubt and for $5/40lbs you can't beat it.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I read on the box and manual of the UGF I installed in my first 10 gallon back in the day that they suggested an overhaul every 6 months, but I've also heard many members on here that do things like reverse the flow of the powerheads so they blow down into the plate and up through the gravel, and others that have left their UGFs in for years without overhaul. Here are my scientifically very nerdy thoughts on UGF overhauls:

1. Hydrogen sulfide explosions. Anaerobic bacteria can set up shop in the bottom plates of an UGF (especially one that has been disconnected from a power head or bubbler), and can generate toxic hydrogen sulfide gas bubbles that will move up through the substrate and explode into the tank, wiping out the tank. It takes years for this to happen, and those with planted tanks have little to worry about because the plants` root systems help quell the process. It's the same phenomenon that occurs in deep sand bed marine tanks.

2. Effectiveness. As the UGF clogs up with debris, it loses effectiveness.

3. No way to tell. You can't tell when the UGF needs to be overhauled without overhauling it. And that involves tearing up EVERYTHING in your tank 

Also, the Safe-T-Sorb from Tractor Supply Co. provides a great source of iron and nutrients to plants. Notice next time you're in your pet store how plant-specific substrates like Fluorite, Floramax and Eco-Complete are all basically clay or shale. The Safe-T-Sorb is a great and cost effective substitute for Eco or the others (so is PC Select, the stuff Ben and Bob use - it's the diamond filling for baseball fields).

And +1 on the pool filter sand. Great stuff, from what I've heard.


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

If your tank stand does not have a solid top to it you can look at the bottom from underneath it and see if its getting loaded up. I use to run UG's and I would just work the gravel vac down onto the plates and it would suck most of the mulm out the the plates. I use to go 5-6 years without tearing it down or wait untill I moved the tank. I never had problems and even had angels spawning in those tanks that had UG's running for that length of time.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

archer772 said:


> If your tank stand does not have a solid top to it you can look at the bottom from underneath it and see if its getting loaded up.


I hadn't thought of that, so the fact that my girlfriends` tank has an open bottom on the stand (she's using an UGF) will be very beneficial for her. However, I've never bought an aquarium-specific stand (I'm using an old bathroom vanity with a linoleum sink top for my 29 gallon, and a drafting table for my 10 and 3 gallon tanks).

+5 on the open bottom idea. You learn something new every day


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

UG's are very effective at what they were designed to do and that was to create a nitrogen cycle. I have been doing tanks for 35+ years and us old timers tend to learn some tricks along the way. I really dont like it when someone says oh thats old school well just because its old school doesnt mean its not very effective  and we can teach some of the younger crowd some things if they are willing to listen


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Arch... I have incredible success with jungle vals, reg vals and dwarf sags..My crypts on the other hand do nothing!.. No leaf melt but no propagation. They are planted at the proper depth..(crown just peaking out) I'm 100% pool sand, an occasional dosage of fert... I might have to try your tsc stuff... Setting up a 155 - 6ft. 
How about a bit more detail on the STS product... how deep? Can I cover it with PFS?...Bill in Va.


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

well stated...i am getting advice from a local LFS owner who is from the old school...everytime i talk to him, it makes complete sense - however, i keep telling him he seems to be in the minority relative to all the blogs! he is in agreement with tis assessment as well. is there a way i can talk to you sometime?


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I believe the STS is the same thing just packeged for use on ball feilds. I used about 1 inch of peat moss and then about 2-3 inches of floor dry. I think the pool sand will just settle thru the floor dry at least thats what happens in SW tanks when sand is layered over crushed coral. I dont like sand because in my experience in tends to compact. I get amazing root growth in the floor dry, plants seem to do good and I dont add any root tabs but then I only siphon the debri off the top of the substrate about once a month.


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Arch.. The pool filter sand will not compact... that's the history of playground sand. PFS is graded to be .45 - .55 mm.. This grading allows water to flow thru it, hence it's use in pool filters. 
UGF's.. I used them back in the early 70s... so that makes me an "old timer".. A friend of mine just emptied a 75G that was using UGF's... He was disgusted with what he found encrusted with those plates. Luckily he had pulled all the fish beforehand otherwise that water would have become toxic pretty rapidly. 
Back in the early 70's I also pre-dated the walstad method. Potting soil beneath gravel. I did a 60 tall about 6 months ago but unfortunately sold that tank off. The root growth in the few short months was nothing short of incredible!... I just don't have the patience to go that route again. 

Finally.. some of us "old timers" can be contrary to another yet another old saying "Ya can't teach old dogs new tricks"... Bill in Va.


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## Rythm (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone. Discussion with Arch was very helpful. i have decided to go with a moderately planted tank and focus more on the fish. Decided to go with the UG and Pea gravel with an external cannister filter (carbon packs). will likely grow into plants as they take it (gradually)...i understand overtime the roots may clog the UG system - but this may take years! this way, i should have good water quality with decent plants and lots of fish for the 135g tank. thanks to all!

so, i will be interested in plants in a few weeks when the tank is delivered. Anyone with spare plants will be appreciated much. i will pay for plants and shipping. Have three large pieces of driftwood being soaked now.

thanks again.


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## giddetm (Apr 30, 2011)

Here is a link to a tank I just started. The Fluval FX-5 I bought is nice the stores are selling them for 400 but you can get them on Ebay for 200 they pump over 900 gal. per hr. You can have low light plants and no CO2 and still have a nice planted tank.

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/new-150-gal-1st-planted-tank-17707.html


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

I just sold a 404, 2 - 304's and a 104 (all fluvals) for 100.00 on CL.. either you overpaid or I undercharged... Bill in Va.


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