# Is this right?



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Ok, I'm getting conflicting answers from the forum and from different LFS's (which I know, don't always know what they are talking about, lol.) *old dude

So: When a fishless cycle is done, you can add all the animals at once, instead of having to do it slowly like you would when you cycle with fish right? (Since the tank was primed to handle 4ppm ammonia and 5ppm Nitrites within 24 hours.) :fish-in-bowl:

(LFS told me not to add Threadfin's right after tank cycles because they are sensitive.... I told him I'm doing a fishless cycle and the tank can handle 4ppm of ammonia in 24hrs. He said it doesn't matter, it will still kill the fish. Yet, when you ask them if they've ever done a fishless cycle, they say no, LOLOL!) *r2 (How do they get their jobs?!)


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Haha, maybe they're cautious... Or paranoid.. <.<

As for your question... I can't answer that since I'm not really an expert :3


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Once the tank has finished cycling and ammonia and nitrite are zero (nitrate won't matter), dose the tank to 4ppm ammonia and track how long it takes to disappear. If it goes to zero (both) in 24hrs I'd say you'd be okay. 

A fishless cycle where high levels of ammonia have been maintained throughout may give you the latitude to stock at or near capacity for the size tank, but you still need to be cautious. You certainly can't overstock it. It is better to go to about 75% and then let it all settle out for a few weeks and then think about adding more. In a tank the size you are referring to it is never safe to teeter on the edge. You may get away with doing that with a larger tank, but the smaller tanks can't really be pushed. 

If the tank is going to be planted, I would look into different plants than maybe you have in your other tanks. Look into fast growing plants and concentrate on mostly those with no more than 1 or 2 slow growers. Fast growers will use the nutrients in the water that you are always fighting more efficiently and can be very effective in keeping it all in balance. I would load with moss, ambulia, cabomba, anacharis, vals, wisteria, and any other nutrient hog out there. Those are just a few. Ambulia is an aqautic weed that will grow nearly an inch a day in my tanks. Get a big group of that stuff and it will soak up a lot of stuff. If you're interested in it, let me know. I'll send you some. I throw away 7-8 stems a week.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks! I'll look into those!

So then I'll just move everyone over to the 20g and then wait for a month or so. Then get the 4-6 Feather Fin Rainbows. Hopefully 6 small new fish won't cause a huge ammonia spike.... since waiting to finish stocking it will allow for some of the Nitrifying bacteria to die off.


----------



## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

How many fish are you talking about here...moving into the new tank that is? Did or are you going to be moving over any of the existing items to the new tank, such as filter?

Regardless....it doesn't matter what type of cycle you do. A tank can only support "x" amount of added bioload at one time. If you add too much at one time, you will run into a mini cycle.


----------



## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Regardless....it doesn't matter what type of cycle you do. A tank can only support "x" amount of added bioload at one time. If you add too much at one time, you will run into a mini cycle.


Pretty much this. Don't make fun of your LFS employees because they're giving you advice on being cautious, because it's definitely warranted. I deal with way too many customers on a daily basis who don't want warnings that what they're doing could potentially have negative ramifications for their aquarium, and instead just want to waste money. They're trying to help...let them.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well Scuff your an exception. and unless you are going to a lfs that caters to mostly just fish the customer isn't getting good advice. Like petco or most chain stores the ones that work in the fish dept don't know squat and are usually just kids there to earn a paycheck.


----------



## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

If you go to an LFS and consistently get poor advice, then it's time to find a new LFS. You wouldn't continue to take your car to a garage that repeatedly told you the wrong part was broken, so why continue to patronize a store with poor employees? The point in this instance is that the employee was giving sound advice, not something that's completely idiotic or far-fetched. If they were giving bad advice, I would agree with Holly, since there are far more LFS employees out there with a lack of knowledge and a desire to gain that knowledge than there are the opposite.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

A lot of us (like me) tend to avoid adding fish all at once not only because of potential shock to the system, but also because sometimes you'll bring home a fish in a batch of ten with a disease and without proper quarantining the disease might infect everyone before it's too late.

I bought an el-cheapo 3 gallon for $5, put some Fluorite and a giant hygro plant trimming in there with an air bubbler, and let it go through a mini cycle before I used it as a quarantine tank. Total cost in time and money was about a week and ~$20 (already had a desk lamp I used as a light). I then added fish 3 at a time for a week each time and watched them for signs of stress before I added them to the main tank.

Ended up wiping out my entire tank anyways because I was an idiot and didn't quarantine the first 3, one of which was infected with cottonmouth, but that's aside from the point - people add fish slowly so as to properly quarantine and prevent disease, and to prevent possible mini-cycles.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Scuff said:


> If you go to an LFS and consistently get poor advice, then it's time to find a new LFS. You wouldn't continue to take your car to a garage that repeatedly told you the wrong part was broken, so why continue to patronize a store with poor employees? The point in this instance is that the employee was giving sound advice, not something that's completely idiotic or far-fetched. If they were giving bad advice, I would agree with Holly, since there are far more LFS employees out there with a lack of knowledge and a desire to gain that knowledge than there are the opposite.


If you are new to this, how do you know if you're getting bad advice?


----------



## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

If the OP is doing a fishless cycle, and making comments like 'LOL HOW DO TEHY GET THER JOBS LOL', then it's a fair bet they're not entirely new at this. I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to bash the OP, but it gets very grating to listen to LFS employees get bashed on a daily basis. We're not all like that.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Sorry, I didn't mean to make any one feel bad! I'm sure anyone on this site who works at a LFS is way qualified to be giving advice. I meant in general, many LFS workers don't give out good advice and are more concerned with making money. 

When reading the fishless cycle, it sounded (by the instructions) like a tank that has been through a fishless cycle can handle a full load, since it has been cycled to handle 4ppm of ammonia in 24 hours. 

"The tank is prepared for fish now. A great benefit of this cycling process is that your aquarium has a large bacteria population and can support a greater initial bio load (number of fish). Do not wait to stock your tank after cycle completion as the bacteria will die off if an ammonia source is not present." I guess I mis-read this and thought I could add everything at once. 

I'll add what I have now: 4 Chillies, 3 Oto cats, 2 Cards, 2 frogs, 3 snails, 16 Black Diamond Shrimp and 18 Red cherry shrimp. Then I'll wait a few weeks. After a few weeks I'll add the 6 Feather fins.

(That should be ok right?)


----------



## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

Sorry Holly, I didn't mean to come off as brash as I did. It's a sensitive subject for me.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

No no, I understand. I should have been more clear and not lumped all LFS store workers together. *Blush*. And, I misread the instructions, so it was my fault, not the LFS guy.

*1.* Do you think my plan to move the inhabitants of the 10g over at once, then wait 2 weeks then get the 6 Featherfins is ok? Or do I need to wait longer? (I figured moving all the 10g animals over would be ok, because they are all really small animals.)

*2.* When the tank is finished being stocked it will have about 13 inches of fish, 3 inches of frogs, 3 snails and the shrimp. The Feather Fins are only about 1 inch full grown. (The bio-load of the shrimp is almost nothing. They do have one, but it's so tiny it doesn't really affect much.) I don't think the snails have a huge bio-load either, since they are helping to clean the tank. I know, they do poop, so they do add, but I don't think it's as much as a fish would be. I'm hoping this is ok.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You can add all that at once - that you list. But as james mentioned, you'll probably(or maybe) get a small spike or mini-cycle, but as you will see before you do this, it will be gone in less than 24hrs. When adding a full load, these fish don't automatically and instantly create enough ammonia....it's gradual. The gradual-ness will allow the bacteria to react and handle it as the ammonia starts to rise.

As I said earlier, you can't go from zero to 100% stock. If you have an accurate defintion of what that is and are able to equate it to x number of this fish and x number of that fish...let me know. Ball park of 75% is a good place to start and then go from there. I've done it....and tested for ammonia 3x a day for 2 days and never saw anything. I know it works.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks! 

Now I'm excited that I can move everyone in from the 10g and also get the 6 Feather Fins on the same day! I will for sure be checking the ammonia levels for about a week afterwards! (I was hoping I wouldn't have to wait to get the Featherfins - the LFS doesn't always have them, but they have them in at the moment. And I think the cycle should be done soon. Dosed to 4ppm ammonia last night. It's at about 1.5ppm today, with still 1ppm Nitrites.) I'm just glad you don't think the 10g inhabitants plus the 6 rainbows isn't too much! Nothing else will be going in that tank.

So, when everyone was saying not to add everything at once, did they mean don't stock the 20g at 20 inches of fish right off the bat?


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, to be honest, I wasn't talking about the 6 you mentioned...only what was in your 10g. You're more than likely overstocked for your 10g and even could be close throwing all those in your 20g. Adding six more on top of that could push you at the edge once again. I'd say transfer them, get your 10g fixed, and put the 6 in the 10g.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Oh, lol. O.k.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Holly I think you need to do some reading on the threadfins as they can max out at 2 inches full grown.

From tropicalfishkeeping magazine

Size



> Males attain 2 inches, females close to 1.5 inches.
> 
> Minimum Tank Suggestion
> 18 inches in length (10 gallon) for a small group of six.
> ...


Read more: Threadfin Rainbowfish (Iriatherina werneri) Profile


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Oh. Lol, LFS people said they'd be smaller - _this_ is what I meant when I said most don't know what they are talking about - lol. 

I was originally told to get just 1 pair of them, but then I read they like to school...... so which is it? Can I get 1 pair or do they need to be in a group? If they only need to be 1 pair or 1m to 2f, that's totally fine too.

(What about Endler's Live bearers? Was told they stay 1" or smaller.) If they are more like guppies, they don't really need a school right? Would a small group of maybe 4 of them be ok with the 10g residents since they are so tiny?) I was told the shrimp do count towards the bio-load, but just a tiny tiny bit since they are so small (under an inch) and eat left over food and fish poop. I'm not set on Threadfins. The Endlers were really pretty too.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not sure why you keep listening to the lfs advice without at least verifying by your own research.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Well, that's why I'm asking here before going out and buying anything, lol.

Anyone know if AqAdvisor stocking calculator is any good? 

When I stocked the 20g with all the 10g inhabitants, plus 6 Endlers I got: 86% capacity, 474% filtration (because I have 2 filters so it calculated that I have more than enough filtration. It needs to be at 100% at least.) It recommended a 25% WC once weekly.

When I stocked the 20g with all the 10g inhabitants, (NOT including the Endlers) but instead adding 6 Threadfins, I got: 93% capacity, 422% filtration, with a recommended 28% WC weekly.

Just wondering if anyone has used this stocking calculator or not? AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

For stocking on my 36g I wanted: 3 Honey or Dwarf Gourami, 8 Harlequin Rasboras, 6 Corys (either Panda or Peppered), 6 Amanos and 4 Onion Nerites. On this calculator I got: 75% capacity, 166% Filtration and 18% WC per week (using panda cories). If I go with Peppered corys it changes to 88% capacity, 132% filtration and 22% WC per week, I think because Peppers are slightly bigger.

I'm wondering if this calculator is completely nuts, because from what you guys are telling me, I will be over stocked. I'm confused though, because the calculator has you put in the tank size and the filters that you are using.


----------



## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Well,speaking to the person working on it,he is still has fine tweaking to do,but its pretty good.Of course you need to use common sense when stocking and always watch for personality conflicts regardless of whats written.

When getting my macrostomas(who are on the aquadvisor as well)I referred to it,the breeder who mine came from,written literature over the net and the wild guru,Gerald Griffin himself.After all that I piled it all up and took conflicting info,and saw what was wrong.Why it didnt work for one when it did for another,ya know?

So my advice,Holly,would be not only to use the calculator,but also look the net over with a fine toothed comb.Once you start to add,i would do so slowly adding one or two species(depending on the amount)at a time,and then get a feel for the way they interact.Theres always exceptions to rules.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Endlers would work as long as they are males. Don't want any females or your tank will be very over stocked in a couple of months. 

I had started with 10 of them in a 75 gal and withing 6 months I had over 500. which was fine with me as I was in the endler species maint. program.


----------



## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

The only two that I would have concerns with moving to a new tank are the Otos and Black Diamond Shrimp. These are the only two you have that really need a well established tank. I'm not saying it can't be done, but am saying proceed with caution.

TBH...I don't even pay any attention the calculators and such. But...and this is a big but...I've been doing this for a very long time. For new comers and such, the calculators are a nice reference I suppose.


----------



## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

Just so long as the information provided by them is taken with a grain of salt, and common sense is also used in the application of that knowledge.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Do what you want based off the info you have gleaned from all of this. There is not a perfect way to determine if everything will work. Even with the aqadviser....it is just a starting point. Filter calcs are probably strictly based off of flow rates. I am sure it doesn't get into media capacity which can be just as important. I'm not even sure why you would _want_ to operate a 20g tank at near full capacity? Personally, it doesn't make sense to me...it doesn't matter how many plants you have, how much filtration you have, or what anyone else has ever gotten away with. What it comes down to, even if you are overstocked, is your system handling the implications of a heavily stocked tank. Without the use of chemicals like ammonia chips or nitrazorb. If you have 80 fish in a 20g, with zero ammonia/nitrite, you can keep nitrates to a manageable level, you have no recurring fish deaths, you're not overstocked in my mind. It all comes down to how well you can handle the maintenance and the issues derived from doing it. If you keep it under control, you're good. If not, even 2 fish can be overstocked, in my opinion.

I would stop worrying about whether or not 6 more fish added to your current stock will work. Do it and see. If it requires you to do water changes 2x weekly or whatever, then you're good. If you can't control fish deaths, either from stress or ammonia/nitrites, then you've gone to far. I would never ask anyone what they thought about my stocking levels. I can test the water myself and see if my system is handling or not and make decisions based off of that. I have had my tanks to levels well above what the aqadvisor suggested and never had a problem. I knew I could handle it if an issue arose.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

James0816 said:


> The only two that I would have concerns with moving to a new tank are the Otos and Black Diamond Shrimp. These are the only two you have that really need a well established tank. I'm not saying it can't be done, but am saying proceed with caution.


Doesn't an 'established' tank mean that it's been through a cycle and is ready to go? I've had these Otos for 2 months now, (past the big '4 week' iffy period most people say they have,) and I'd like to keep them! And the BDS as well - they are kind of expensive. I'm hoping that when the tank is cycled it will be able to house them fine.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

An "established tank"...try googling that, lol. It has different meaning for different people. IMO, it means the tank parameters have leveled out and it's stable. I feel that occurs somewhere in the 4-6 month point where fauna deaths are an odd occurance. Well planted and plants growing can achieve it sooner. 

Just cycled tanks are still very unstable. Any tank where someone is constantly adding fish...at any rate...doesn't have an established tank. 

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Hmmm... not able to keep the 10g up for another 4-6 months. Kinda' have to move everyone in asap..... that's why I was trying to grow algae for them to eat.... which now may be something bad (other post - pic now up). I'm hoping they won't die when I move them.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

In your case...you got to do what you got to do.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

True. *Fingers crossed!!


----------



## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Good luck moving them.i think if you do so slowly things may work out.Acclimate them very slowly.


----------



## ReStart (Jan 3, 2011)

Well, all this has given me pause for cause as I consider moving half my Molly fry over to the "over flow tank" which is a 14g plastic container that just finished a fishless cycle. I think I'll move just maybe 6, wait and see what happens and then move the rest. I'll have about 20 in the 10g and 25 in the 14g.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Molly fry won't start making much of an impact until they are 3-4 months old.


----------

