# Possible Ick?



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Guys and Gals, I purchased 12 cardinal tetras from a LFS about 6 days ago (last Saturday). Yesterday, I noticed that several of them had tiny white dots on them. The dots are about the size of the period at the end of this sentence. At first, I thought they were air bubbles, but they don't move. Some of my fish have the dots on their bodies, some have them on their heads and some have them on their fins. A few have the dots in multiple places.

Does this look like ick? I'm including a photo, and apologize for the poor quality. If you'll look closely, you'll see one of the dots on the fish on the bottom right. The dot is on his/her head.



My tank has been up and running for nearly a month now. Here are the specs:

Tank size: 25 gallon (24 long x 12 deep x 20 high)
Ammonia: 0
NitrIte: 0
NitrAte: 5
PH/GH/KH: 7.2/unknown/unknown
Cycled,yes or no: Yes, but only for one day
Number of fish: 16 (1 male betta, 3 otocinclus catfish, 12 cardinal tetras)
Acclimation process: Drip acclimation for 15-20 minutes, then netted and placed in main tank
Physical signs of illness(IE spots,shimmer,ECT): tiny white spots
How often between fish additions: otos added in late August, remaining fish added last Saturday
Waterchange schedule: 50% per day while tank cycled, will now change 50% twice/week
Tank temp: 80 Farenheit

I've read that adding salt can help, but I've also read that otocinclus may not do well in salt. Any advice would be welcomed! Thank you!


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Ich will look like grains of salt sprinkled on the fish and by your description thats probably what it is. Raise your temp to 85 / 86 slowly. Add an airstone to help wiht o2.
get some rid ich or quick cure.

Treat the tank for the full dosage, and keep heat raised for 10 days, even if the fish don't have anymore spots.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If ich, I prefer to act fast and add quick cure. In the two times I have had to use it has cleared all spots in about four days. Continue to treat about 5 days beyond last sign and use half dose for Tetras.

The other method works, but takes too long to start affecting anything for my taste. Most applications where sickness is noted, how fast you ac t will greatly affect your outcome.


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I got some new wild mollies a couple of weeks ago. They popped a few Ich spots on the first day in and I used warmth and quick cure. It was gone, never to return by the next day.
Speed is important, to get it before it is established and has had time to really feed on and weaken the fish.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you all! I'm assuming quick cure is a brand name of a medicine? Is it otocinclus safe? I've already started my temp increase (2 degrees/hour...should be at 86 in another hour). Does the heat kill the ick?


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Heat disrupts their feeding and accelerates their life cycle. The cysts burst and release the freeswimming parasites before they are ready, and they are then exposed to the anti-Ich dyes, which disrupt their DNA and kill them. 
There are many species of Ich, and they have different tolerances for our treatments. I have only ever encountered one (with huge cysts) that resisted Malachite green and formalin. Even then, it did not resist for long, although its resilience cost me a few fish.
My understanding is that salt, as a seriously uncomfortable skin irritant, causes the fish to overproduce protective skin slime. With heat, when the Ich spread out underfed and weakened, they cannot attach to their host due to the slime production. I find this a little risky, plus I find salt a hard to remove chemical that affects the kidneys of rainforest species.
I go with the toxic looking dyes, which are sold under different brand names in different countries. They break down quickly (bacteria feed on them), are easy to remove with carbon filtration or water changes, and kill the Ich parasites much more quickly. They can stain decorations or silicone, as well as fingers.


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

I must say that I'm not comfortable with using both heat and anti-ich meds.
I reckon that if a fish is infected, it would appreciate being as comfortable as possible and the meds work at the standard temps anyway.
It may take a day or so longer but with increased oxygenation I feel this gives the fish the best chance of survival.
cb


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks Clep. Now for another problem...my filter cartridges contain activated carbon. Can I administer the meds and leave the cartridges in place? I'm afraid that if I remove them, I'll lose the bacteria and kill my cycle. If I leave them in though, won't they remove the meds from the water?


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

You can't medicate with carbon in there. You're in a bit of a pickle too.
Increase the temperature and you'll increase the fish metabolism and increase ammonia production - to some degree you'll also accelerate bacteria multiplication.
I'd replace the carbon with filter foam ASAP, stop feeding and medicate. The fish will be fine without food for 5 days or more. Hopefully, the bioload will drop sufficiently for the filter to cope - just do a good waterchange ahead of medicating.
Don't rinse your media in tap water or add untreated water into the tank either (In case you didn't know)
cb


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I respectfully disagree on the treatment clepberry's proposing. I see the sense and logic in it, but it goes against experience and other sensible and logical reasons.
If you are overstocked, raising the heat and medicating is dangerous, but not in a well stocked tank. I have never had surface gasping except when the Ich had had time to get into the gills, and that is uncommon. 
I have never observed adverse effects from 85f and meds.
Heat and meds will minimize losses to fish by maximizing losses to parasites, fast. Do a good water change before medicating, and pull the inserts. I have actually opened slot cartridges and removed the carbon - it takes a few minutes and gives a good return. In the long run though, clep-berry's suggestion to replace the inserts with foam is a good one. Carbon is largely useless, and if you open up and see how little the manufacturers use, you'll see they agree. 
To stop feeding during Ich, when the parasite kills fish by draining their nutritious body fluids strikes me as being like the ancient practice of bleeding patients to treat anemia. That would seem dangerous to me. Ammonia is not that much of a killer in a water changed tank. Ich is.
It runs fish down, starves them and then moves on to the next host. The damaged fish dies of secondary complications, from the amount the parasite has drained from it. Warmer water=less feeding=quicker post-parasite recovery.
I consider good feeding essential during a parasite bloom.


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

My single Ich experience didn't cost me a fish.
I tried increasing the temperature and the fish went ballistic long before hitting 85 deg. I kept it elevated and comfortable and treated with Protozin and the treatment was successful. Hopefully, this won't occur here.

I don't know mow much bacteria will be lost with the Carbon removal so I'm thinking about maintaining a healthy cycle at the same time as the media replacement.

cb


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Although "rid ich" directions don't say raise temp. they do say make 25% water change before treatment(vacuming bottom particulary). According to Dr. Axelrod's mini atlas(992 pages{mini?}) "After a few days(2-3) it(ich) is full grown,bores a way out of skin and falls to bottom of tank(why you vaccumed the bottom first),then developes a cyst of its own,averaging 1000 young that swim seeking a host.The whole cycle takes about 4 weeks at 20c but is reduced to about 5 days at 27c".I have always added heat to stop disease as quickly as possible.The time with infection (causing secondary issues) kills more than heat ever could.


----------



## Rufus' Mom (Jan 2, 2012)

I am a fan of heat in treating for ich. I once noticed the start of an outbreak 2 days before leaving for a 7 day vacation. I raised the heat, treated for the next 2 days and left hoping for the best but expecting the worst. I came home to a happy and healthy tank, no losses. I'm convinced that speeding up the cycle with heat allowed the treatment to quickly kill the parasites at their most vulnerable stage. The worry, though, just about killed the vacation.


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I've seen a lot of Ich, through keeping fish for 46 years, working in a pet store and working with a wholesaler. I honestly don't know how often I've seen it and cured it. 
I've tried all kinds of brand name meds, salt, heat alone, pharmacy methelyne blue...
To me, it's an easily dealt with inconvenience, and it very rarely kills here. It's very predicatable - miss water changes in heavily stocked tanks, see Ich. Bring fish from the shops in winter, look for Ich. Buy any fish from a chain store, expect Ich.
I've gone up to 5 years without seeing it, but eventually, it shows up. However, it's just inconvenient if treated and heated.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you all for your advice. After reading the great input, here's what I've done...I raised the tank temp to 85F and added an airstone. I also cut open the filter cartridges and removed the carbon inside (this was done under tank water I'd drained into a bucket so that I wouldn't kill the bacteria) then put the newly carbon-free cartridges back in the filter. I then performed a 50% water change and added my first dose (a half-dose) of AP Quick Cure. I'll keep the group posted as the treatment progresses. Thank you all again!


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

You should be well on your way to recovery!
27c (or 80F) my fish were comfortable with but any higher, they looked like they wanted to jump out of the tank.
I return to the discussion because I concede that higher temps do work for Ich - in fact it's a known treatment by itself and one that I had attempted - but finally decided against after hitting 28C. The fish were just not comfortable.
If 85F works for you - do it by all means. I've read more than a post or two with people treating with heat, salt and meds and lost fish as a result - maybe it's from increasing the heat too fast - who knows.
cb


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The half dose seems like a wise decision as cardinals are generally considered ;delicate /or diffacult ( I prefer demanding{of high water quality}).If you don't see a noticeable improvement within 2 days and the cardinals have not had a bad re-action to med ,I would carefully move to stronger(3/4 or maybe 100%) med application.Good luck ,I love my cards(aprox.30) they are one of most beautiful"common" fish available and worth keeping water at "higher" standards.Check your PH as they are sensative to higher PH and dislike hardness.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Bandit, thanks for the info on ph. My tank was at about 7.4, but has decreased after adding driftwood. I plan on adding co2 after adding a few more plants (the ones I have now don't require it). Hopefully that will bring it down even further.

As for my ich treatments, would you all recommend keeping up with my regular water changes while using the quick cure, or should I hold off for the next week to 10 days? My regularly scheduled water change is two 25-50% water changes per week.


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Treat after water changes and you should be fine. The stuff degrades within a fairly short period of time which is why repeated dosing is required.
cb


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Update: the ick spots are still on my fish. I've been adding one drop of quick cure per two gallons in accordance with instructions on quick cure bottle (for tetras). However, the fish seem to be eating well and are active. Tonight I performed a 25% water change, then increased my dosage to one drop per 1.5 gallons. My temp remains at 85F. More updates to come. Should the spots begin disappearing soon? Also, how do I know when to stop treatment?


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Possible problem here...we left our aquarium lights off today (an accident). When I got home from work snd turned the lights on, every one of my cardinals was completely pale. They almost looked like different fish. Almost all if their red color was gone, and some is their blue. However, they were just as active as always, and ate well. Was thus due to my lights being left off? I haven't noticed this before, even when turning the lights on first thing in the morning. Or, could it have been from the increased quick cure dose? I went back to one drop per two gallons to be safe. Should I be worried?


----------



## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

FrshwtrAR said:


> Possible problem here...we left our aquarium lights off today (an accident). When I got home from work snd turned the lights on, every one of my cardinals was completely pale. They almost looked like different fish. Almost all if their red color was gone, and some is their blue. However, they were just as active as always, and ate well. Was thus due to my lights being left off? I haven't noticed this before, even when turning the lights on first thing in the morning. Or, could it have been from the increased quick cure dose? I went back to one drop per two gallons to be safe. Should I be worried?


That is a common trait of both neons and cardinals. I am not sure why, but I saw an explanation somewhere on the forum before.


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Normally the colour returns when the lights come on. If it doesn't then expect trouble: Add oxygen, dim lights and feed lightly.
It might be that the water is uncomfortably hot for them. Dial back to 80 deg slowly as you are medicating.
cb


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Many fish(esp. cards) dim their colors when lights out as defense.Not so clorful & shinny = harder to see.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Their color is back...whew! All of the fish still look great, happy and healthy. Some of them still have the white spots though. Is it unusual to still see those after 5 days of medication?


----------



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

The white spots decreased for 6 days when I treated - but I didn't treat at such high temps.
You're not running carbon in there are you?
cb


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Stay the course. If the Ich was able to become established, it can easily take two weeks to clear. Do not drop the heat, no matter how much advice you get that way. Experience says you have to maintain the pressure on the parasite.
There are multiple species of the parasite and they react differently to treatments. Some can be very tenacious. You'll get them. Keep the fish well fed (but not overfed) and keep the environment absolutely stable - temperature up and meds present. It will work.
If you get Ich as soon as it appears, it'll go in 2-3 days, but most likely, as a new aquarist, you missed the first cycle and it got a good toehold in the tank. It'll just take longer, and may kill a fish or two as a result.

Fish have "chromatophores" - colour cells they can control. They turn them down in darkness, under stress, etc, and turn them up in daylight. Many pencil fish have daytime and nightitme patterns - you would swear they were different fish.
Cichlids control the colour cells as a means of communication. It's great stuff to watch, and you have just seen it in a basic day/night form.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks fellas...made me feel better. Im feeding twice a day, but just enough that the food is gone in about a minute. Little/no food makes it to the bottom. Clep, I removed the carbon by cutting open the cartridges that came with my filter and rinsing the carbon out. I'm going to switch to foam as you suggested when it's time for replacement.

Nav, thanks for the info on treatment time frames. I sure hope I don't lose a fish. It's funny how quickly you can become attached to them. So far, they all seem active and are eating well.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Update: the treatment seems to be working! The spots are almost gone (two fish still have one spot each, that I can see). All seem healthy and active. I'm going to continue treatment as recommended. My temp is at 85-86F, ammonia at 0, nitrite at 0, and nitrate at 5.

I also fed my fish their first non-flake, non-pellet food...frozen brine shrimp. They tore it up! Also, my plants are growing quickly. I have you all to thank for this.

I'll post another update when the spots are gone and I stop treatment.


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Some of the Ich will hit the ground as it drops off, so siphoning along the bottom will help. It can encyst and go dormant, waiting for someone to slack on water changes, or for a drastic change in temperature. It won't successfully attack your fish if they are healthy, but it is wired for patience. Ich can wait a long time...
That said, I have completely eliminated it from my system several times. I run 40+ aquaria, and I have gone as long as 10 years without seeing it. Recently, a local store has started bringing in interesting fish, and store bought fish bring Ich. My treatment skills are right up there now.
Before, when I kept wild caught fish and fish from other hobbyist/breeders, Ich was a rare sight.


----------



## dregan29 (Oct 3, 2012)

navigator black said:


> Some of the Ich will hit the ground as it drops off, so siphoning along the bottom will help. It can encyst and go dormant, waiting for someone to slack on water changes, or for a drastic change in temperature. It won't successfully attack your fish if they are healthy, but it is wired for patience. Ich can wait a long time...
> That said, I have completely eliminated it from my system several times. I run 40+ aquaria, and I have gone as long as 10 years without seeing it. Recently, a local store has started bringing in interesting fish, and store bought fish bring Ich. My treatment skills are right up there now.
> Before, when I kept wild caught fish and fish from other hobbyist/breeders, Ich was a rare sight.


Ich can NOT go dormant, not in any part of its cycles. That is one of the oldest ongoing myths. At lower temperatures its life cycle can be slowed down, sure, a couple weeks at best. I just wanted to clarify that  to name a couple other ones you hear a lot: it can not survive outside of water (like a net that is dried out). it doesn't live off of plants, it may live on one, usually in the Tomont stage.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Nav, I'm sure you've posted this a thousand times, but what do you use as your water change schedule?

Also, I'm posting an updated photo of my tank...



The plants and the cardinals are really growing! The betta isn't, but he may have been full grown when I got him. The otos pretty much stay out of sight. They seem to enjoy hanging out under the driftwood.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

How long after the spots disappear should I continue treating the tank to be sure I've killed all the ich?


----------



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

at least 3 days after clearing, I wouldn't lower temp for 1 week to be safe.


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks Dregan, that got me reading. I suspect I have bought an endlessly repeated myth about dormancy. The dormant Ich theory does seem more than sketchy when you take a close look at the life cycle of our interesting little enemy. I've changed my opinion, but will go digging for some sources before I feel certain. Someone has to have studied Ich closely enough to source the research - it costs the fishfarm industry enough that work will have been done somewhere.

I change 25-30% every week. When life intervenes, I may go two weeks, but never longer than that.


----------



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

My case of ick seems to nearly be gone...but not quite there yet. One of my cardinals (a smaller one) still has a white spot that I can't seem to get rid of. Its hard to see very clearly, because he is very active. I'm pretty sure its still an ick spot. 

I've been treating since 9-30-12, and have gradually increased to a full dose of treatment meds (API QuickCure). Should I be worried that I haven't removed the ick after treating for nearly a month? Is it unusual for a single fish to resist treatment?

Thanks guys and gals!


----------



## dregan29 (Oct 3, 2012)

It is odd that after a month of treating you still have problems. A couple questions...

1. Have you been vacuuming your substrate, or bottom of tank if bare, during water changes? -- Ich will drop off the fish and basically start breeding/multiplying encrusted in a shell that treatments at normal dosages can't hurt.

2. Are you sure your heater/thermometer are accurate? Possibly not as high as you think? -- Ich's life cycle is sped up by heat, the higher the better at around 80 degrees or so its life cycle is about 4 days, some argue 3. Colder temps it can go weeks before a cycle is completed. Temps excess of 85/86 can kill or sterilize it alone (most strains).

3. Have you introduced anything new to your tank? (living or transferred from another tank without a quarantine period) 

4. Are you sure its ich still at this point and not some other infection, possibly brought on from an extended treatment? -- Stress can bring on numerous other diseases and infections. Some fungal infections can look similar to ich.

We should get a few sticky's added here. I would be willing to write one for ich, or help write one. Ich has so much misinformation out there that at times it just makes things worse by following the advise thought to be correct. The internet has only made it worse. 

There are several successful ways to rid ich safely. Factors like species, water type, water quality, planted, not planted, cycled, established, not cycled, filtration.... the list gets quite long. Can change the approach or best way to tackle it from one tank to another.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

85-86 is not really high enough to cause death to ich. It will keep the cycle to 4 days but that is about it. Temps need to be in the 88-89 range to kill. You may have gotten it to stop reproducing, but I would guess that would be it. Heat and meds is okay, but it is also very dangerous. More so than treating with med cocktails in my opinion. Both things will deplete oxygen, so you do need to be mindful of what is happening. I've never had to use both, the meds I have chosen always did the job within 3-4 days max.


----------



## dregan29 (Oct 3, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> 85-86 is not really high enough to cause death to ich. It will keep the cycle to 4 days but that is about it. Temps need to be in the 88-89 range to kill. You may have gotten it to stop reproducing, but I would guess that would be it. Heat and meds is okay, but it is also very dangerous. More so than treating with med cocktails in my opinion. Both things will deplete oxygen, so you do need to be mindful of what is happening. I've never had to use both, the meds I have chosen always did the job within 3-4 days max.


My fault I should have elaborated a little more on what I stated, or said it clearer. 

It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984)

There are several strains and some are more tolerant some less to the above findings. 

So 85/86 is where your fish should be safe from re-infestation (most cases). A lot of strains die off at 89/90 but some are known to go as high as 92+. 

Again, we should make a sticky on this. As a community I'm sure we can put together an in depth article on best treatments for different scenarios. Which is something I have not come across over the years.


----------

