# pH Crash - driftwood + CO2



## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Measured my pH today at "somewhere below 6.8" my phenol red solution only goes that low.
Fish symptoms seem to be that they are breathing heavily.
It used to fluctuate between down below and 7.4 but the addition of driftwood seems to have caused a very low pH.

I have some options available. Seachem Equilibrium for one - increasing the GH or some small coral pieces which should increase KH.

I added about 1/3 of a teaspoon of Equilibrium and mixed it in with the tank water - matters got a little worse - so I changed out 25% of the water and then added the coral, increased surface agitation drastically too because of the heavy breathing.

I figure when the pH rises (Shaken) above 7.0 again, I'll remove the coral and add again when it's below 6.8.

I'm trying to figure out what's happening right now - too many variables - maybe also changes in tapwater pH. Last time I measured GH/KH it was 6-8 degrees for both.

cb


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## Aeten (Aug 4, 2012)

Below 6.8 isn't really enough information to start playing god with your tank's pH.... I think the driftwood won't take it to a level dangerous for your fish unless they are some weird type of cichlid or something, i would just leave it, take the coral out, and wait to see if it doesn't come back up by itself without harming your inhabitants


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## gtrider6 (Jul 7, 2012)

I wouldn't remove it the coral. Most coral or cuttlebone will raise the tank to about 7.6 to 8. 

See what it levels out to for holding a constant ph. Fluctuations will just stress the fish more and we know what that means.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

clep.berry said:


> Measured my pH today at "somewhere below 6.8" my phenol red solution only goes that low.
> Fish symptoms seem to be that they are breathing heavily.
> It used to fluctuate between down below and 7.4 but the addition of driftwood seems to have caused a very low pH.
> 
> ...


Can Driftwood crash the PH like that? I've got some soaking but reading this no way am i putting it in the tank lol


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## dvanbramer88 (Jul 23, 2011)

goldie said:


> Can Driftwood crash the PH like that? I've got some soaking but reading this no way am i putting it in the tank lol


Yes, driftwood lowers pH. It doesn't really make it "crash." I have a good amount of wood in my 55 and the pH went down to 6. Now i have the right amount of crushed coral in the filters to keep it at ~7.2.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

dvanbramer88 said:


> Yes, driftwood lowers pH. It doesn't really make it "crash." I have a good amount of wood in my 55 and the pH went down to 6. Now i have the right amount of crushed coral in the filters to keep it at ~7.2.


I'm glad i read this thread because i thought it lowered it but very slightly
No driftwood in the tank now ,that's put me right off adding it but, as i said i'm glad i read it)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If 7 is neutral;8 is high and 6 is low; how come every flips for6.8/6.6 and thinks 7.2/7.4 are fine?I saw neons? in your gallery.They won't mind 6.8/6.6 .Unless you have fish that require higher ph I wouldn't worry(maybe change water to help with this(the soaking goes on after instalation).My tank is 6.8/7 with very low gh/kh.My wood eventually stopped lowering my waters ph (possibly months) so now I mix RO/DI with dechlorinated tap to keep from being too low.check your co2 also.It lowers ph(I'm sure you know) see if it's still properly being administeredand possibly adjust(with wood taken into consideration for now).


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Probably a dumb question but, can't driftwood be sealed with something fish safe' I'm struggling here my computers really dragging. I'm nervy about this driftwood now)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

no safe sealers I am aware of.Wood is in every natural body of water.It looks beautiful in aquariums.Ihave lots of wood and wouldn't be without.If you monitor your water(like cb does)you'll be aware when wood is most active(in the beginning).It does "settle down"in time. I'm not sure ph going down(even .5) would cause gasping or heavy breathing in fish.When ph goes down CO2 levels rise naturally,already adding CO2 means your CO2 levels have elavated.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Ah thanks for that, I think i'm addicted to water testing so im now thinking it will be okay to put it in.)


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I've always had success using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to buffer the KH and raise the pH a little. SeaChem Alkaline Booster is basically the same stuff. Equilibrium will raise your GH but not your KH. GH is general hardness, the basic mineral content in your water, whereas KH is alkalinity/carbonate hardness and measures the level of carbonate and bicarbonate in your water. KH interacts with hydronium ions and prevents your pH from swinging drastically, which is why KH is commonly called "alkaline buffering capacity" - it buffers your pH from swinging during photoperiods in heavily planted tanks, for example.

Sorry if this was info you already knew, just thought I'd share and point out it's low KH that I think is the issue. Equilibrium won't help it very much, but the coral and/or baking soda and/or SeaChem Alkaline Buffer will.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Also gasping and heavy breathing at the top is a sign of 2 things. Too much co2 and low o2. You need a drop checker to tell where your at with the co2. But until you have one, need to back off on it and make sure your running an airstone at night.

A ph fluctuation from co2 won't cause the gasping. Wood don't usually drop ph enough to crash it. I have wood in all my tanks and it never gets below 6.8, when I want it lower I use aldercones to drop it more.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

goldie said:


> Can Driftwood crash the PH like that? I've got some soaking but reading this no way am i putting it in the tank lol


Goldie, it's not the driftwood on it's own that's doing it. I guess I should explain.*old dude
CO2 on it's own drops the pH in my tank by about 0.5 for the right concentration for my plants FOR A GIVEN CALCIUM HARDNESS.

What Driftwood does - besides drop the pH a little is reduce calcium hardness. This is not a big problem either.

What happens when you reduce the water hardness and add CO2 is that because there is less buffering capacity in the water to prevent CO2 swings, the addition of 30ppm of CO2 will make your pH swing much greater.

In my case, I could simply have purchased a low range pH test kit and seen where I was but that wouldn't be as useful as a KH test kit - or a CO2 drop checker - neither of which are available locally to me.

I had Seachem Equilibrium on hand as I plan to move over to using it as part of a dry fert regime in the future - but this wasn't to be of value in this scenario - fortunately, I can wean my system of it slowly as it will be taken up by the plants by dosing a little less K - and more frequent smaller water changes. 

Gizmo's suggestion is spot on for me and it's similar to the coral addition - which I prefer as it will "leach slowly" into the system.

Messing with water chemistry isn't advised but DIY CO2 and driftwood is a fairly common mix. To determine CO2 levels you need to know KH, pH of aerated sample and pH of unaerated sample. - or just use a drop checker.

cb

Previous post: (Removed and pasted here)

Thanks all for your posts.
Gizmo - I've no-one to remind me of chemistry I did in school over 20 years ago - so it's a pleasure to be tickled like that.
The key is small changes I believe. A reduction in KH also means less O2 can also be held in the tank. I also think that we've had a LOT of rain lately and the tapwater is becoming softer too.
Yes pH is low - but not CRAZY low. Airstone suggestion Sue - I raise a filter so I have far more surface agitation at night - should be a similar effect.
Coralbandit: the fish would more than likely do OK at lower pH - my concern though is the CO2 without which I believe I'd have to use Excel or have an algae fest- and I have Vals in the tank so that's not an option.
Another consideration I didn't think about is that my timer broke and the photoperiod was all over the place AND I didn't dose ferts for a couple of days. 
Another potential water softener is the number of snails reproducing in my tank that I remove as my loach is a little lazy to chomp up.

Update:
After a night with good surface movement and 2 small pieces of coral in the tank Unaerated pH was (a solid) 6.8 and aerated 7.4 just after the lights came on (new timer).
Seems my routine will benefit from weekly pH testing and overnight coral addition.
Fish still breathing relatively quickly so I'm also going to drop my temp a degree or so - this could be from the water changes.
cb


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Do you have a drop checker that has 4dkh solution in it? If you use CO2 and don't have one it is like playing with a loaded gun. I would think right off hand that CO2 levels got higher than normal and no biggie, but the DC is the only way to know that. My tank will swing greater than 1 full point....all of them. Having the tank at the right kh, gh has little to do with it it, will ensure that it swings back after you stop injecting. This is considered a natural swing and is perfectly safe for fish. Wood typically will only drop ph about a blag point max, but again a natural drop and safe.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Forgot to add that using that kh/ph/CO2 relationship chart that I can tell you're using to figure out CO2 concentration levels, doesn't work. the chart is useless. If your ph is only dropping .5 with injected CO2, then you are maybe at 15ppm of CO2. If you look at the chart and from the ph you have and add what you're injecting....this is not your CO2 concentration level. If that were true, mine would be in the 60ppm area. They do not work together. Get a drop checker and ONLY use that for CO2.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm using DIY CO2 and as yet have not got a drop checker - I was told that it's extremely unlikely to gas fish with DIY CO2 with a 15g but I'm looking to make one as I can't seem to purchase one here.

Edit: (Because of JRMan's double posting) - thanks for that bit of info. I thought that the shake pH measurement would have been sufficient... Oh well...

cb


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks cb, a load of this is beyond me lol. I will be putting the wood i got in the tanks and I hope you get your problem sorted out.
Off now have a good day


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Update:
Fish are really happy again. Dropped temps down a little (25C now) and the hardness seems to be back to what they're used to - surface agitation isn't as extreme either now things are settling in.
Fixed the timer too so they're back on their 5hr/day regimen 2 hrs morning 3 hours evening.
This had me thinking about using digital pH meters to control CO2 in a planted tank. These are typically reading off tank water and not a buffer solution so with an addition of a piece of driftwood, the CO2 would basically shut down.
There are many, many variables in this hobby. Reducing temp will increase the solubility of O2 and CO2 in the water which makes me think that it was just an O2 deficiency but bumping up kh and lowering temps seems to have worked in this instance.
I should make reference pH measurements for my tapwater to be able to check if something's awry as it's only afterwards that I suspected a seasonal change in supply.
cb


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

clep.berry said:


> Update:
> This had me thinking about using digital pH meters to control CO2 in a planted tank. These are typically reading off tank water and not a buffer solution so with an addition of a piece of driftwood, the CO2 would basically shut down.


DW effects to ph are short lived - usually. What you are saying is true, but in this case you would just adjust the ph low enough on your meter (signifying the point CO2 shuts off) to compensate in order to get to your desired CO2 level.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Update 2:
All fish are doing well. CO2 levels nice and high without gasping.
Tap pH (aerated by shaking) 7.2
Tank pH 6.8 straight
Tank pH 7.6 Shaken

The equilibrium and coral I added seems to have done the trick together with lowering water temps to 24C.

Side effects: Melon sword now producing 4' wide leaves that are 40cm long - i.e. 2/3 of the length of the tank itself. 
Had to dose with excel after all as BBA was rearing it's head - standard dose has done the trick but starting to lose the vals again. Maybe Vals are only for a low light only tank 
Dwarf spear spreading - hoping to have a carpet by December but rooting the stuff in pea gravel not my favorite activity in the world.
cb


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