# Kinda confused here....



## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

I listened for once and went out and bought an API Freshwater Master Test kit. Tested for PH,Ammonia, Nitrites and nitrates. Where I'm getting confused is the Nitrite readings which I tested twice with identical results;

PH-7

Ammonia-0PPM

Nitrites-5+PPM

Nitrates-5PPM

What is confusing is the high Nitrite readings compared to the low Nitrate readings. I recently did a 25% water change and vacuumed half the gravel(4 days ago). I don't believe I'm overfeeding, within five minutes all visible flakes are gone and the Angels are foraging on the bottom. The cats and the Pleco are usually busy on the Algae wafer until it's gone then the cats start foraging the bottom, all five of them.

Tank is cycled and the Biological filter has been running for over a month(Seeded with Stress-Zyme five weeks ago) with two of the five cats and the smokey Veil in the tank for almost 3 weeks.

Any thoughts?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Stress zyme isnt all its cracked up to be. Sometimes it works and most of the time it doesn't. Your tank is still cycling and when cycling with fish it requires lots of water changes and monitoring. It will also take a couple of months for it to complete the cycle.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Okay, that's why I'm on here...to relearn. Thought. I'm currently using a Fluval U1 underwater with a sponge in it for biological filtration. Would I be better off turning it down to half speed or buying an air-driven sponge filter?
Thanks for the help Susan!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I wouldn't turn it down unless it has to much flow. It never hurts to add another sponge filter for extra filtration.


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## jaybourne074 (Sep 19, 2012)

I agree with others, you are still cycling. 
Keep your levels under the radar and makes water changes if Nitrates goes around 40ppm.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Dave, i agree with the others and i would deffo upgrade with the filter. I've seen the u1 Fluvals and they are so teeny . With such a small sponge they have in them i honestly think you will be struggling with that filter it's such a minute area for good bacteria to establish itself on to really keep your water good ' I feel youneed so much more media


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks for all the info folks, just ordered a large Sponge Filter.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Update, change out ten gallons the other day(Thursday) and vacuumed half the gravel. Added a Nitro-Sponge IV air-driven sponge filter sized for an 80 gallon tank today, also left the Fluval in. While I was at it I went ahead and tested again.

Ph-6.8(The driftwood is working)

Nitrites-2PPM or so

Nitrates- 0PPM

Ammonia-0PPM

The nitrites are down a bit but seeing no nitrates.

Here's my next question; Seeing as how this tank has been running for a couple of months total, could what I'm seeing here be converted nitrites? My inhabitants are all eating like pigs, swimming a lot, excreting fine and show no signs of any stress. Or am I getting nitrites and nitrates confused?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

During a cycle it is useless and a waste of time to test for nitrates. If you test positive for either ammonia or nitrites, it won't matter what your nitrates read.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Okay, in an effort to give you all the most info, and I really do appreciate the help, I'll start from day one with what I've done to date. 

I set up the tank and stand at the end of August. First of September I got the pump, an Aqueon 50 and the Hoods and Heater and filled the tank with tap water, treated with Tetra Water Conditioner, turned on the pump without filter media and let it run. On Sept.5th. I rinsed all my gravel, added it to the tank and seeded with Stress-Zyme. This was recommended by the Local Fish Store. Next day I added the Fluval U1 with a sponge in it and let the whole thing run. Two days later the water clouded. Stayed clouded for about five days then cleared. Two days after that I purchased and introduced two Panda Corys and a pleco. That was the 15th. of September. I fed lightly with Tetra-min once a day to help the Corys and Pleco start some kind of Bio-load. 

At this time I was testing Ph only.Stayed the same until the middle of October when I added the Angelfish and three more Corys. Also I bought a API Master Test kit in the first week of Nov. after listening to all of you. This is when I found out that while Ammonia was 0 and Nitrates were 5ppm, my Nitrite-level was also 5ppm. Latest test shows zero for ammonia, 2.5ppm for nitrites and 0 for nitrates. This is after a partial water change, about ten gallons and vacuuming half the gravel. Hence my confusion. From what I understand I should be seeing the opposite of what I am, low Nitrates and zero nitrites.

This tank has been running over two months, had the cloud bloom come and go, introduced a bio-load and used no chemicals I can remember except for dechlorinator.

So, I guess my next question is; Why am I seeing the Nitrite/ Nitrate levels reversed?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

I know this is not what you want to hear but if you are still getting nitrite readings then your tank is either 
1 not finished (or cycle interrupted somehow) cycling yet
2 under filtered
3 you are using some sort of chemical like ph stabilizer or something that you failed to mention
Regardless of which one it is you need to do a 50% water change immediately to get your nitrites below 1 because your fish are suffering with that high of a nitrite reading.Once you get the level down you can figure out what is going on but your fish need immediate help.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

dalfed said:


> I know this is not what you want to hear but if you are still getting nitrite readings then your tank is either
> 1 not finished (or cycle interrupted somehow) cycling yet
> 2 under filtered
> 3 you are using some sort of chemical like ph stabilizer or something that you failed to mention
> Regardless of which one it is you need to do a 50% water change immediately to get your nitrites below 1 because your fish are suffering with that high of a nitrite reading.Once you get the level down you can figure out what is going on but your fish need immediate help.


1.) Could all the water-changes I've been advised to do interrupt the cycling? I'm just asking because, unless my logic is flawed, it seems to me that the constant new water would lengthen the cycling. I did change 50% of the water like Dalfed suggested today.

2.) Not sure. I'm running an Aqueon 50, a Fluval U1 and a Sponge-Filter sized for up to 80 gallons driven by a large Whisper 10-30 air-pump.

3.) Except for some Ph down added to the tank when I first set it up back in Sept. nothing but Aquasafe and some Stress-Zyme has been added. After all the water changes I doubt the Ph Down is even a factor.

I'm going to wait another hour to let the water mix better then I'm going to test again.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Hmmm. time-hack is off. It's only 5:35PM here.
Anyway, went ahead and tested the water, post 50 % water change.

Ph-7.1

Ammonia- 0PPM

Nitrites-2PPM

Nitrates- 5PPM

Nitrites unchanged, Nitrates up to 5PPM from 0PPM.

Ph is because of water change. only change is nitrates. If I still see this tomorrow I'll go buy a bag of Nitra-zorb and put it in the filter. This is starting to frustrate me.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

that is really strange common sense says if you remove half of the water and add clean water nitrites should drop in half, I think lol.Have you tested your water out of the tap?


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

That's what I thought too! I waited about an hour to do the testing so the new water could mix well.

I'll test the tap water tomorrow and post what it tests at.


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## packofqtips (Oct 5, 2012)

a tank wont cycle without an ammonia source, i believe stress-zyme helps condition the water during water changes, but its not an instant cycle in a bottle.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

It's had five Corys and a Pleco in it for over a month. I added the angels the last of October. I understand about the Stress-Zyme. The lfs recommended it and I figured if it helps that's great but obviously it hasn't. Only used it the one time. 
I'm also going to get a larger HOB filter, probably an Aqueon 55.They take the same filter as the 50 I'm running so I can use the 50's filter to help with bio.


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## packofqtips (Oct 5, 2012)

a fish in cycle can take months, you said your tank clouded and cleared pre-fish 

my tank has 5 small fish and is almost 2 months old and still cycling, i do partial water changes twice a week 

i use seachem prime as a dechlorinator, which also helps to detoxify the ammonia


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Ran the tap water today;
Ph-7.6

Ammonia - 0 ppm

Nitrites-0 ppm

Nitrates-5 ppm

Thought that was interesting. Talked with the county water people, GH is rated at fairly hard. That explains why the Ph kept rebounding at first.

Added a pack of Nitra-Zorb to the filter today, should slowly lower the nitrites I'm seeing. Doing a 25% water-change tomorrow.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Dave Waits, the advise given by JRMAN83 is sound advise...don't keep running tests, and slow down from a state of what sounds like pannic...it won't help. Your tank is out of cycle regardless if it was before it is not now. and your vacuming all the gravel that holds both debris and good bacteria, when for now water change schedules should be the rule. Your fish are what to watch and if signs of stress occure, do water change. On the subject of water change..instead of buy tank equipment make sure you have a large water hold bucket or tank that is food and water safe, and both fill, treat for Chlormine and airate the water...try to keep it at the same temp of your tank...if that means another heater perhaps that is good since you will be able to store future water at temperature of tank...for emergency use such as now. 
Important is calm down and rationalize your plan of attack...you can do this and though fish are in the tank now your concerns are not stressing them or yourself...for they count on you for help... and it's not found in most hardware application at this stage of the treatment. Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

LTruex; great advice on keeping properly acclimated water"on hand".I have many tanks and change water(on some or most)daily.I keep 60+ gallons pre heated and dechlorinated(tap) always.When I use water(30 g at a rip) I refill my storage dechlorinate and drop heater and power head in(always have water).I also store 40 g RO/DI for reefs.The extra heater is an unfortunate expense,but if one fails in any of my tanks I have 2 on hand that are not necessary(they heat my reserve) and can be replaced when convienent(not right now or my fish could die or become sick).

Dave Waits;I'm not so sure nitra sorb won't release what it absorbs upon exhausting or becoming saturated.I use seaChem Purigen;rechargeable(means no need to replace,just soak in bleach and water for 24 hrs. ,rinse and soak in double dechlorinated water for 24 hrs and tour good to go).It works great !I keep it in every tank and 2-3 in larger tanks, so I can recharge 1 while others still keep working.The purigen works 24/7 on a slow continuos process,and makes my "crowded tanks" have fantastic w/q always.On another note;having a bacterial bloom is no sign of tank(filter) being cycled.I've followed along since beginning and the cloudy water being mentioned without proper reply.Any nitrIte,any ammonia indicate incomplete cycling or overcrowding.Your tank does not seem over crowded,but I mention(no one else has yet) that plecostumus or massive waste creators(like gold fish) and taking in to account its size(if large) could count for more than 4-7 average fish.I'm sure yours is not massive yet, but if common type ,it will grow fairly large and needs to count for waste it creates,not just 4" fish.Changing water will not break or disrupt cycle as long as you leave your filter alone.I also think you're correct in adding more filtraiton as current (water flow)is only consideration needed to addressed for fish(never have to much filter,only flow for slow fish).Change water, good luck.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I just don't see the need for Purigen to begin with. This is a cycling tank and cycling tanks should not have things like Purigen to counter the effects of it. These effects will pass. 

Purigen should only be used in situations where the source water has high nitrates or ammonia. I personally can't see another reason to use it. Some use to polish their water with heavily stocked tanks, but that is a choice that should be made later.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

jrman may be right that purigen may not be proper for cycling .It was a recommendation I stand by though as a replacement for using nitrsorb.Possibly neither should be used during cycling.After that I do believe in using purigen.As I have not been in a car accident in over 20 years ,I still use seat belt.To me thats what purigen is.It removes nitrAtes, the end game of a cycled tank ,and with the exception of water changes(the best,cheapest,healthiest thing you can do for your tank) nothing else removes nitrAtes better.Possibly again neither nitrsorb or purigen is proper for cycling,but with the exception of "de-chlorinator"no other "removal tool" stops the removed product from returning ,therefore I question why it would cause any trouble regardless of cycle(source of nitrAte still exist and will "re-up" your count no matter how often you remove it).Either way changing water is better and sucessful keepers do it regulary.(not just to get through cycle,or when levels are unacceptable)It's like fresh air,no harm in it.


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Sorry guys, been offline for a couple days with connectivity issues(Time-Warner had to put in a new WiFi modem). Nitrazorb did nothing, however, turning up the temp to 81 and letting it run for a few days did. Nitrites dropped to between 2 and 5 ppm and nitrates went up to 20 ppm. Did a 50% water change yesterday(Lost an Angel because of it) and nitrites dropped to right below 2 ppm after an hour. Gonna check again tomorrow and go from there.

I want to say thanks to all for the help and putting up with my constant questions. 

I think my tank is turning the corner here.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

Agree with LTruex, Also i never read what size is this tank?? remember also that what goes in a fish comes out, my angels will eat as fast as i put it in the tank, and i think would bust before they stopped, so its important to regulate what you feed, just because they eat it all, wont stop a lot of build up when it comes out, and the clean up crew produces waste as well.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Dave Waits, don't lower your gaurd yet, for the tank is not cycled and that takes time. It seems your fish are in a very weaken state, and it might be best to not change as much water at one time, though you might consider trying to change more often...this is difficult to determine, for your angle fish is not that easy to kill. They must be very weak. Keep at it and good luck. Thanks to all for complements...much appreciated Larry


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## Cat696 (Apr 27, 2011)

I would have to agree. Smaller water changes more often are a good deal easier on weakened fish. Angels are pretty tough, so I would think about doing smaller water changes more often rather than the larger changes less often. 
Don't forget to check your bio growth and (assuming you check the filter regularly), vacuum the TOP layer of gravel, but don't dig in.. it seems as though you are going to be going through a "mini cycle" in no time.. and that is actually good, so long as you can keep your fish strong enough to survive.. don't forget the Live Bearer Salt. Works better than Aquarium salt, and improves immune system, gill function, and guards against infection due to weakened immune function... 
Good Luck!


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

The Angelfish dying kinda threw me off. This was a healthy Fish.All that was in the fresh water was Tetra Aquasafe, same Dechlor I've been using since the beginning.Used the same method I've been using, bring the bucket in from the Bathroom, treat with correct dose of Aquasafe, agitate the water and then let it sit for five minutes to be sure before slowly pouring it into the tank.

I fill from the bathtub, using a thermometer, I match the water coming out of the tap with what the aquarium temp is.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi Dave, i must admit i haven';t followed all the posts through but if you mean you let the water sit in the bath tub i personally would'nt do that. In a container kept specifically for just the fish ,yes, but i'm wondering if there could be soap residue in the bath or some bath cleaning agent used. That would bother me 'if' that's what you mean


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

goldie said:


> Hi Dave, i must admit i haven';t followed all the posts through but if you mean you let the water sit in the bath tub i personally would'nt do that. In a container kept specifically for just the fish ,yes, but i'm wondering if there could be soap residue in the bath or some bath cleaning agent used. That would bother me 'if' that's what you mean


Very good point.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Dave, Goldie is right about handling water where soap is often in use, for even the most minute trace of soap can be fatal to aqautic animals. You can buy plastic storage bens from walmart or such and use to store water...I admit some are not safe so try to find those that are designed for food products or water storage. Speaking only for myself in my ongoing gathering of components for my up coming tank start up...I have purchased 35 gal. step leg tank for water storage. This tank is water safe and I found it on sale though I had to drive 90 miles one way to get that price. I don't plan to be caught in an emergency with a quick change and must use unsafe water...my water will be at temp, and properly prepared for quick change if required. I'm serious about this because I learned the hard way and won't make that mistake again...an emergency killed a mating pair of reglar oscars because it required water change, and I wasn't prepared for it. Larry


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Just to ease some concerns, I use a brand-new five-gallon Plastic bucket and I let the water run for five minutes before filling it. That way I clean out the lines of any water that has been sitting and any contaminants on the faucet.

BTW, I tested again today;
Ph-7.2
Ammonia- 0 ppm
Nitrates- about 10 ppm
Nitrites- 0 ppm

I tested twice with an API Master kit. So, I think I'm finally getting somewhere. I'll test again tomorrow and if the results are the same, will lower the tank temp back down from 81 to 75 degrees.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So you really fill from the faucet, not from the tub. Right?


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Yes, the faucet is high enough to where I can angle the bucket slightly under it without touching the faucet and fill from there.


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