# What the heck is going on!?!?!?!?!?



## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

After a wipe out of 90% of my fish due to ich and other fantastic diseases, I remained with only 2. My Avocado Puffer and my baby Geophagus, now its been almost 2 weeks since everything died, I did a drastic water change, replaced new filter media and so on, I recently added, on Wednesday, 2 moonlight gouramis and an African knife, then Thursday I added an African butterfly, came home Friday night, all dead but the knife, woke up this morning, dead knife, all the remains is the puffer and the geo, I have tested my water, its where it all should be, I can not begin to imagine what in the world of god is wrong with my tank, its coming to the point where I'm just going to give up because I cant watch anymore fish die on me. Is there something in the water killing my fish that the old ones are used to? Like I really do not understand the reasoning behind the death of all these fish. We are coming up to close to $100+ worth of dead fish. Its insane. If anyone has any ideas that would help me out that would be fantastic.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well I can see a few problems. For one, when you did a real good clean on the filter you lost all of your beneficial bacteria so the tank started cycling. 2. The tank is to small for the fish that you have then added more to it. 3. All the fish that you are choosing except for the gourami will outgrow that tank real fast. 3 The puffler will need a tank on its own as they can get pretty aggressive. You need to research your fish before buying them.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

The puffer will grow to 5 inches, hes a wussy, the African knife at most will get 10 inches, the butterfly will get 5 at most, the gouramis will get 6 inches maybe larger, trust me I research fish in my spare time. I did not remove the sponge in my filter, I left that alone, so there must have been some Bacteria in that thing. Ive had the geo almost a month, grew maybe, a quarter of an inch.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

It is still to many fish for that tank, and the puffer still needs to be on its own. And the fish will still be to big for that tank.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Agreed. A gallon of water per inch of fish, otherwise they will kill each other off or just straight up die. Also sounds like you're getting some pretty intense fish species there that might require very specific water alkalinity, hardness, pH, and temperature ranges. We'll need all of those stats from your tank before we can tell you any more.

Also, don't add any more fish until we've figured this out! As it stands, I wouldn't add any more fish anyways for the sake of giving the two you've got in there some swimming room.

Also, what filter and heater are you using?


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

off of the test strip.
Nitrates 20 - safe
Nitrites 0 - safe
Hardness 150 - hard
Chlorine 0 - safe
Alkalinity 150 - ideal
PH 7.8 - Alkaline 

Cascade 300, planning on buying an Aqua Clear 110 shortly.
Aqueon 100W heater.
This is not like I have a 5.5G tank, I have an empty 29G. Theres so much swimming room its not even funny. If we are going down the road on IPG then its 5 inches used, 24 remaining.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

1 inch per gallon works well for docile community fish. I have not researched the fish you have but it's possible that one of them is not liking other fish in it's territory. Also, when adding more fish to a tank you have to add them slowly so that the beneficial bacteria have time to catch up to the new bio load. It is very possible that between the cleaning and the adding of fish then you might have over loaded the tank too much.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

The one inch rule pertains to small bodied fish at full growth. Like neons and guppies. A 5 inch puffer is a full bodied fish that basically needs the tank for itself. And they do get aggressive with other fish. A bad fin nipper in its own right. The geo even though is one of the milder cichlids that can be kept in a community tank will reach 10 inches full grown and will be happier in a group of at least 3 and needs at least a 75 gal tank.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

The 1 inch thing is just really a rough and very rough estimate, common sense when stocking is the key, more room= happier fish


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

The puffer is the largest fish in the tank atm, he never bothered anyone and I know for a fact this geo is to small to bother anyone, in the event the puffer becomes to nasty I have a spare tank Ill set up, I had him in with jack dempseys, severums, and a whole assortment of fish. I didn't add to many at one time. I am also using cycle when I do water changes and add new fish.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I just will say one more thing, cycle isn't worth the bottle its put in. I am out of this one, you apparently don't want to listen to good advice. So hopefully someone will come along and tell you what you want to hear.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you had good testing supplies...strips don't qualify....I am sure we could tell you exactly where your problem is.

How long has the tank been running WITH fish?

Not sure why you can't believe why you may have done something wrong here....nobody likes to admit mistakes.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

All i know about any of the fish you have is puffers are aggressive,and need crustaceans


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

There are many possibilities, but as jr suggested, I think the first thing you shold do is purchase a liquid test kit. Strips are unreliable and, unless you forgot to mention it, you haven't even tested for ammonia, which is the first thing you want to know in a situation like this.

If you had a variety of diseases and treated with various medications, it is quite likely that you lost most of your beneficial bacteria to the medication. Then you went from 2 fish to 6 fish in the space of 24 hours. It is quite possible you had a lethal ammonia spike.

It takes time for a new colony of beneficial bacteria to grow and products to make that process go faster are highly controversial. I've seen a lot of people try them and the only ones that seem to work more than a third of the time are the ones you get shipped overnight in a chilled container (those work maybe half the time).

So first thing I would do is get the liquid test kit. Until then, it would be helpful if you could tell us a little bit about your feeding and cleaning routines. They can sometimes illuminate problems.


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## knownothingfishowner (Feb 22, 2010)

With a 29 gallon, go cheap with the fish - platies, tetras or danios. 

Besides, if those die - no big shakes - you're out a few bucks.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I think the big kicker here is that you haven't tested for ammonia. Do you have any way to test for it and tell us what that reading is?

I would bet $20 that you had an ammonia spike, as everyone else here has said.

Nothing to be mad about - I made the massively idiotic move in my earlier fish-keeping days of thinking I could to partial water changes using the same bucket I was mopping the floor with using Lysol. Spectacular failure.

If I were you I would do daily partial water changes to keep the ammonia concentrations at low levels until the bacteria colonies develop. To speed up the process you could hit up your local fish store for some used filter media or a used structure to stick in your tank. Also, although the aquarium starter bottles are next to useless, they do contain some live bacteria that will help re-establish your cycle.

Hope this helps!


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I have a question for you- if adding 4 fish in 24 hours is not adding them too quickly what would you consider too quickly or too many?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

There is more than one puffer sold as avacado. Is yours like this? 
Golden Puffer, Avocado Puffer, Bronze/Golden Puffer, Auriglobus modestus, Chonerhinos modestus
The Puffer Forum • Auriglobus modestus
Puffers are lovely fish, almost like puppies, unfortunately also very messy. Consider dedicating the tank to him, it would be perfect for him on his own I think.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

susankat said:


> I just will say one more thing, cycle isn't worth the bottle its put in. I am out of this one, you apparently don't want to listen to good advice. So hopefully someone will come along and tell you what you want to hear.


I came on this forum to find out why my fish are dying, not the fact the 2 fish are still alive, If cycle is bad, what should I use in its place? I am willing to take the advice but from what I have seen you have been bashing me as a fish owner, I am not new to keeping fish, this is my 3rd tank Ive set up and I am having issues with the current tank, Ive kept sensitive fish, Ive successfully owned, flounders, sleeper gobies, black ghost knives, fancy plecos, other puffers and so on. The Puffer I have now is NOT at all the problem. I have had him months, I have yet to see any type of aggression come from this fish regarding any one else in the tank. The dead fish showed no signs of being killed, so I highly doubt the puffer had anything to do with it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

thenewseverum said:


> .....The dead fish showed no signs of being killed, so I highly doubt the puffer had anything to do with it.


Probably true...but adding so many fish at once probably did. A simple ammonia/nitrite test would have confirmed what your issues were, more than likely.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

I tested them today, levels were the same as on the strips and I used a test kit. I believe that nulls this whole spike bs.


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## Kaosu (Nov 13, 2010)

Troll...somewhere a bridge is missing you 

...there really is allot of good advice on this thread that you refuse to knowledge or consider. No one will tell you what you want to hear...just the results of the facts you give them.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If all the fish have been removed that caused the problem, then I would assume it is gone now.

Call it what you want...you came here and asked for help and then continue to tell people they don't know what they are talking about. If you knew yourself, why come here? I am sure you'd get the same answer on any other forum you may be a member of. Other things could have come into play as well. Ph shock, already sick fish, etc. Not drip acclimating a fish alone can be enough to kill it soon after you add it - not saying you ddn't do that.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Where did you get the new fish?Did you quarantine them?You should quarantine any new purchase regardless the source,for at least 2 weeks.The rapid addition of many fish to such a small tank(i have a 30 gallon myself)will overload the filters and cause a mass die off.And it wont always show up in tests,btw.Also what temps are you running,how did you acclimate ect?not sure the answer but i say,quarantine,add a fish or two once a month,and acclimate as if they were 300 dollar fish,lol.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nope, this guy refuses to admit that he could have messed up. Most of us have done it a time or two or more...but not him.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

i was looking for all possibilities and i didn't get all the information i wanted, i already explained the water test and u took it as me saying your wrong so just forget it ill just go to a more friendly and helpful forum.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ummm.....everyone here was more than helpful....maybe you should just be more friendly. Especially when you're the one needing the help. Just a suggestion of course.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

I did not see myself as being rude at all, you asked for information, I gave it to you. You are insisting its an ammonia spike, I didn't water change the tank before I tested it and ammonia came up 0.25 like always. There's 2 fish left, why wouldn't the spike kill them? There's something else to it, I did not say that I didn't do something wrong, wouldn't shock me if I did, yeah we make mistakes, don't just go shooting your mouth off saying I don't listen and refuse to admit I was wrong, so far, the leading CoD has yet to be determined. majerah1 was saying, quarantine? Yeah, well I do not have the room for a spare tank to do that for 2 weeks, nor would I be able to get my parents to allow me to have another tank, this was hard enough. I work at a fish store, I deal with fish all day long trying to help people solve their issues, I have my own, I ask people who know more then I do, just like the customers ask me.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

thenewseverum said:


> I came on this forum to find out why my fish are dying, not the fact the 2 fish are still alive, If cycle is bad, what should I use in its place? I am willing to take the advice but from what I have seen you have been bashing me as a fish owner, I am not new to keeping fish, this is my 3rd tank Ive set up and I am having issues with the current tank, Ive kept sensitive fish, Ive successfully owned, flounders, sleeper gobies, black ghost knives, fancy plecos, other puffers and so on. The Puffer I have now is NOT at all the problem. I have had him months, I have yet to see any type of aggression come from this fish regarding any one else in the tank. The dead fish showed no signs of being killed, so I highly doubt the puffer had anything to do with it.



I have not bashed you as a fish owner, I think you need to read my posts again. I am not going to offer you any more advice. I and many of the others have told you that it was to many fish for that tank, and yes you added to many at once. Learn to read what people are actually saying and you will see why your other fish died. You may have 3 tanks so what I have 47 tanks and I still don't know everything. Fish keeping is a learning experience no matter how many tanks or fish that you have kept.


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## thenewseverum (Nov 23, 2010)

susankat said:


> I and many of the others have told you that it was to many fish for that tank


A huge amount of bs right there. Your telling me I can keep 2 fish per tank? That I am basically stuck with this puffer and geophagus, that's it? It was over 48 hours that the fish were added, small fish may I mind you, I have high doubts that it can cause that much of an issue with ammonia. I have a filter made to run a 100+ gallon aquarium. I am not worried about a bio load over powering my filter. Unless I add 3478946 fish at a time, there is no reason for a catastrophic failure to ensue again. A friend of mine, has the same size tank and has close to 20 fish in his tank, including discus, has yet to lose more then 2 or 3 fish since he started. So the whole "to many fish for the tank" idea is complete bs. If you can maintain your tank properly and have the right kind of filtration, I do not see a problem with keeping a well stocked tank, within reason.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

WOAH!!!! Things are getting a bit hot here!!! Everyone please retract claws!!!!!

Okay, I'm going to go with the idea that not only do you want to understand what happened but why and that is why your playing devil's advocate with the answers. But, I think that is why some of the people here are getting hot under the collar-while your just trying to get all the information and ins and outs that you can they are taking that as argumentative. 

Here are all the things I see with the tank and your problems:
1. The tank is probably okay for the fish that you had in them AT THEIR CURRENT SIZE but as they grew then they would need more room then the tank would provide. Also, some fish get more aggressive as they grow and more territorial so fish that were okay together when they were younger can become enemies as they grow.

2. I still say that you added the fish too fast: you did a big water change, changed the filter media and medicated the tank. You lost A LOT of your bacteria. No matter how good your filter is it's the bacteria that keep your tank in check. The bacteria will regrow in the tank but it takes time. When you start a new tank you get an ammonia spike and then a nitrite spike. These are your indicators that the bacteria are growing. When the cycle is established there will not be any ammonia or nitrites showing in the tank and hopefully only a small number of nitrates. That does not mean that the tank is no longer producing ammonia it simply means that the amount of ammonia that is being produced is being immediately consumed. Same thing with the nitrites. This is how you keep your tank healthy. When you kill them with medications or remove them with filter replacement with the same number of fish in the tank then you can expect that the ammonia and nitrites in the tank will rise slightly. It might not be much and it might not even be enough to change the reading on the test how it will happen. When you add a new fish to the tank then the tank needs to produce more bacteria to deal with that new fish, so same thing applies-expect ammonia and nitrites to go up while the tank adjusts. When you do them all together then the spikes you get will be bigger, and more deadly. I suspect that the 2 survivors in the tank are survivors because they are strong fish-only strong fish survive in the first place when you medicate a tank. That is the reason behind only adding 1 or 2 fish to a tank per month-to allow the bacteria time to grow and adjust to the new demands. 

3. Maybe your filter is causing, or partly causing the problem as well. If that filter is meant to go on a 100gal tank then it might be creating too much current for the fish. Again, this is something that will bother more delicate fish.

4. Again, maybe it's the puffer. He might not be biting anyone (and honestly I'm not sure how you could tell because every time I have ever had a fish die no matter what the reason the other fish always took some bites at him before I got him out) but is he chasing them? Some fish don't actually have to be nipped to be hurt if they are shy enough then just being chased will stress them out, in which case, your lucky they died because stressed fish get sick VERY easy and that can be disastrous for the whole tank. 

5. Maybe the remaining meds in the tank helped kill them too. It's possible and I'm sure it did not help. 

6. About the cycle stuff, here is my beef with it: Lets just assume that the bottle is right and it will add the bacteria to the tank that you need my problem with it is-what are they going to eat?? The bacteria growth in a tank follows a very specific pattern and establishing that pattern takes time: ammonia must be broken down to produce nitrite and nitrite must be broken down to produce nitrates. So, if you artificially add the bacteria to the tank that are produced in the break down of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate then you have the bacteria BUT they need to eat and there will be nothing for them to eat because THE TANK ITSELF has not started breaking down ammonia and etc. So, basically, the bacteria you added will end up dying with no food and then you will still end up having to wait for the tank to do it itself or keep adding cycle on a regular basis and hope that the right bacteria is actually in the bottle. 

7. Forget about your friends tank as a comparison. Two tanks are never alike and without going through a VERY big analysis of both then you should not even consider what he has compared to you. Besides, just think how good it will feel when his tank eventually crashes and yours is going smooth and strong LOL. Some tanks just seem to operate well by not obeying the rules (I have some here like that myself) but that does not mean that things will not go wrong later and, rest assured, it an anomaly tank when things go wrong it will be a VERY big disaster. 

8. Always keep in mind that the advice you are getting here is NOT the "this will be fine" advice. You are getting the "something else might work most of the time but this will work ALL the time" overkill advice. Depending on how you feel about your fish then you might want to go with either. If you feel very strongly about your fish (and not everyone does) then you will likely want to go with the advice that will never fail simply because it's always better to be safe then sorry. But, if you just like the way your fish look and it's not particularly bothersome when they die then go with the "some times this works" approach. For example, a lot of people drip assimilate their fish after floating them in the tank. Because you will NEVER have a fish die from being introduced into a new tank if you do that. I have never done that. I always only float the bag. I have lost 2 altogether because of that but was not really bothered, since there was a week guarantee on the fish. If I had known how to do that when I got my Glass Catfish then I would have dripped them, just the same, they were fine but I would not have taken the chance on them simply because I wanted those fish so bad. Some people don't do weekly water changes because things are usually fine without them. Others do them every single week without fail simply because you will never develop a water quality problem in your tank if you change the water every single week without fail. Honestly, the best advice to get is the advice that will always work. It can be more of a pain in the *** then the other type of advice but, you can't go wrong by following it.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Its time to cool it down. This thread is going nowhere so I am closing it.


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