# Does this describe a disease?



## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

Over the past 4 or 5 weeks, I've lost about one fish a week. They were all Black Tetra and Black Neon Tetras. They will start having trouble swimming at a normal stance. At times, their heads will start to angle up at 30 or 45 degrees. They also stop eating. They then last 3 or 4 days before dying. My other fish, regular Neons, an Angel, and Rasboras show no sign of a problem. I suppose since they all are a couple years old, it could be just old age but I thought I would check here.

DLH


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## bolram (May 17, 2011)

If they are that old it could be down to age...I've had similar symptoms before in young new fish but was down to swim bladder going.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

I think I read on this site about Tetras having a disease that is common to them. I wonder if this is what it looks like. If my fish have it, it doesn't seem to be very contagious with only one fish a week getting sick.

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You're probly thinking of Neon tetra disease.Most tetras don't live longer than 4 years if you're doing good so old age is an option.Check out NTD and mycrobacterium.I'm pretty sure both have symptoms very hard to recognise .They also both kill much like your fish are dieing,1 aweek,then another.Once any symptoms are noted the fish won't last a week.The mycrobacterium can be contagious to people.If you have cuts or wounds on hands or arms be very careful dealing with tank.
Hope it's just old age!


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

So far I haven't seen it in my regular Neons. Because of the way a fish will have problem with swimming for days it would be easy to see. I'll do some research on both mycrobacterium and NTD.

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

NTD isn't only a tetra disease.It can affect most fish.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

I checked out both mycrobacterium and NTD. They certainly are bad news. But they both cause changes in body appearance that my fish don't show. I did find out that Stress Coat can be used in place of salt to a certain extent because it's safe for plants and Cories. I'm going to try that and hope fore the best. I'm also going to have my water parameters checked just to be sure but I don't see that as a problem because only one fish at a time is being affected.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

Took a water sample to the LFS. Here are the parameters.

PH - 6
KH - 20
NO3 - 80

He advised me to do a 50% water change twice a week. I asked if it was possible for bad water parameters to effect one fish at a time and he said he thought it could. What do you guys think.

Didn't mention something about mycrobacterium and NTD. They're both so bad that to cure the problem the recommendation is to dispose of the tank contents completely and clean the tank itself with Lysol. 

DLH


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## nate2005 (Apr 24, 2013)

Did they tell you the ammonia or nitrite levels are? What is your ph out of the tap? When was the last time you did a water change and how good were you about water changes before that? Could be a case of old Tank syndrome. 

I would strongly discourage a 50% water change unless you know your ph is around 6-6.4, which is probably isn't with a kh that high. Otherwise the ph shock will finish them off. I would suggest You buy a test kit of your own and test for ammonia.


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## nate2005 (Apr 24, 2013)

Kh of 20 is probably ppm not dkh. Doh!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I think I would chance the 50% water change for 2 times.It will yield you a nitrAte level of aprox.20+.You should test your tap and have a liquid test kit as nate mentioned.
I am also curious what your w/c habbits are?


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

nate2005 said:


> Did they tell you the ammonia or nitrite levels are? What is your ph out of the tap? When was the last time you did a water change and how good were you about water changes before that? Could be a case of old Tank syndrome.
> 
> I would strongly discourage a 50% water change unless you know your ph is around 6-6.4, which is probably isn't with a kh that high. Otherwise the ph shock will finish them off. I would suggest You buy a test kit of your own and test for ammonia.


Too late on the 50% water change, I already did it. It was 4 days since my last change. The guy at the LFS mentioned ammonia and nitrites but didn't seem too interested in testing for them. I could buy test kits but my wife would have to read them because I'm not good at doing that. For years my normal water change habit was to change 1/3 of the water once a week and replace it with tap water. He did mention they sell RO water. Wonder what that cost to buy and treat. 

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Possibly take a sample of your tap to LFS to test?Your nitrAtes seem pretty high for the amount of waterchanges you do.
One more question though;How much and often do you feed?Do they eat all food in 2-3 minutes.
I have MTS also and change lots of water,and have live plants in all tanks,but kind of feel they are from my feeding habbits as I feed heavy(since I change so much water,my water quality is never effected but do feel the MTS are a symptom of overfeeding in my case.)


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm suppose to take another tank water sample to the LFS in afew days. I'll take in a sample of tap water then.

I do have a bad habit of over feeding. I tell myself that the MTS and the ghost shrimp will take care of it. About 2/3 of my tank bottom is planted so when I clean the gravel I can only clean part of it.

I have a Aqueon 55 HOB with with a sponge filter added to the intake and extra material in the cartridge compartment to give the good bugs a place to live but maybe it's not enough.

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I keep purigen in all my display tanks and it does deal with some of the nitrAtes(helps me with overstocking and water changes).A little less food may also help with the nitrates but we really can't be sure it is not comming from your tap until you have it tested.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

Here's a picture of my tank.



My water comes out of Lake Michigan. Most likely the LFS get's their water from there too. 

The guy at the LFS told me to stop using Stress Coat and to start using Prime. Is that just his opinion? He had both in stock.

Going to be offline for an hour or so. Time to make supper.

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Prime is IMO the best most economical solution for chlorine in water prep.I use it after years of Nova aqua(1 gallon jugs).
No matter where your water comes from your water supplier does add treatments(which should be easily found on net searching your water supplier,as legally they must post test results once or twice a year).


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

Just noticed your signature. Holy smokes, how do you keep track of everything?

nate2005 mentioned something called "old tank syndrome". What's that?

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Lack of waterchanges IMO (you don't fit that IMO).
Not much to keep to track of really!I test my salts weekly for necessary things and (as Charles {Inkmaker} recommends;I"change as much water as I can as often as I can".)I probly change 400 gallons most weeks ,sometimes much more!


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## nate2005 (Apr 24, 2013)

Donald Hansen said:


> nate2005 mentioned something called "old tank syndrome". What's that?
> 
> DLH


Basically it is high nitrates, low ph, and high total ammonia caused by lack of water changes. it can cause existing fish to mysteriously die one at a time and new ones to usually die during acclimation. you can read more here. 

Old Tank Syndrome

30% weekly pwc will easily prevent it though. Although I would still have them check ammonia just so you can rule that out.

I recently starting using prime because of all the good things I keep hearing about it. so far so good for me. the issue I am having is you need to use so little compared to my old stuff (10 drops vs 1 capful for 5g) its hard to measure. I figure that is a good issue to have though. In general, all seachem products seem to be topnotch.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

Read "Old Tank Syndrome". Brings a question to mind. While it's obvious that not changing, just replacing, the water in a tank for long period of time and then changing 50% of it is will shock the fish. But what is a long period of time? I was changing 30% of the water once a week because I worried about shocking the fish. If the water in my tank is the problem, I think I would feel better changing 30% of the water twice a week and as opposed to changing 50% once a week.

Today I noticed another Black Tetra in the heads up position. Besides that and until the fish becomes weaker, the fish acts normal. Because of that I can't remove the affected fish because it disappears into the school as soon as I try to net it.

DLH

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If you don't buff your water(I hope no one does!) you can change as much as you like.I have changed 100% in my discus breeding tank(anyone want to mention more sensative fish?And they spawned the next day and are still alive today{I think getting ready to spawn again as they have been on "break"})).If you are changing pH ...then sudden changes are never recommended.
I like your math in that 50% all at once is basically equal to 30% x2,not 25%.Put anything you want into aqadvisor and you'll see that splitting w/c does not equal 1/2 at a time but more due to dilution of nutrients.
I personally think you are not only all good with 50%(taking safety of fish in mind),but think it could easily(again as far as the fish go{not your personal effort})be done 2 times a week without problem.
The head up just makes me think of spinal curvature and really leaves me concerned about mycrobacterium.It is horrible,basically the worst thing I can think of besides vibrio(deadly to people and so,so much more rare in aquariums),so I want you to careful around your tank.
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

What do you mean by "buff your water"?

When I say "heads up" I'm not talking about the shape of the fish. It remains normal. What I mean is the fish will be stationary with it's whole body angled up. It's a little hard to tell sometimes because all fish will angle up or down at times but after watching for a while it is obvious that something is wrong. 

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Buffing is adding a liquid or powder chems to change your pH.


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## Donald Hansen (Jan 21, 2011)

What about when you use RO water? I've read here that you have to treat it to get the proper parameters. Here's a question. Will RO remove all nasty bugs?

I did some research on swim bladder disease. Non of the symptoms quite matched mine but I did find that nitrates are a very common cause. Interesting that constipation is another common cause. Bugs that attack the swim bladder wall are another cause. I forget what chemical was used to treat that but if my problem continues I may have to try it.

DLH


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

RO won't help with water parameters.It will only lower your ph and deplete water of other elements.


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