# New 40 gallon breeder planted tank



## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Hello everyone, I am new here so I am sorry if I missed any procedures or if this is in the wrong spot or anything. So over the past week I have been setting up my tank with the hopes of it being mildly self sustaining once I get it up and running. By this I simply mean that I want it to have very little human interaction, maybe a few water changes every few months or whenever necessary. Right now I am cycling it and finding plants to put in, however I would really appreciate any suggestions for freshwater fish to place in. I will be putting in red cherry shrimp and Malaysian trumpet snails most likely, but what fish would be able to thrive in this tank? I preferably want a good breeding fish like endlers or guppies, but what would be able to thrive off of eating mostly the plants and maybe some shrimp fry or snails? And also would I be able to have a predator in this tank at all or is that more wishful thinking? I was thinking of a peacock eel as i read that they only have to eat a few times a week but I want to make sure. I would let each level of the food chain get established before moving up to the next one. Thank you all for the help!


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## Raptor (Feb 29, 2016)

Hmmm thats an interesting idea, a self sustaining aquarium 

Well first of all i think i would get the tank cycled, well established with a lot of live plants that are thriving and reproducing.

(that step is gonna take some doing as far as proper lighting etc.)

Next i would get my self sustaining food sources going and well established to the point that they will be able to reproduce faster than any predator you might add could consume them. You will have to keep in mind also that if you want a tank that requires the least amount of maintenance it will have to be either a very large tank, of have very light stocking, so the natural bio and filtration can always be ahead of the waste output of its inhabitants.

This is an interesting topic, but will take a lot of planning to achieve. Get that much conquered and come back so we can fine tune and evaluate what is happening so far.


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Raptor said:


> Hmmm thats an interesting idea, a self sustaining aquarium
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello, thanks for responding! I had honestly given up hope on getting any responses here haha. But as of right now, the tank is going well! I have s a somewhere between 10-20 cherry shrimp and 6 zebra danios and am waiting on them to start breeding. I am currently having only two problems my the shrimp seem to be having problems molting and I have hydrogen sulfide in my soil. In addition I think I need to get a few more rooted plants. I have a submersible filter meant for a 55 gallon, and I'm mostly using it for some circulation as well as the natural biological filtration.
For the shrimp, I am stumped. Only one shrimp that I can prove has died from failure to molt, and it had a large break in the shell between the head and thorax. For the hydrogen sulfide, I want to get a few more heavily rooted plants to help solve this, as well as possibly putting some black worms in to hopefully live and maybe reproduce in the soil. In addition this might provide an addition food source to whatever fish I end up putting in. I am planning on getting some endlers and got the danios to help solve an insect problem I had, so I might sell them back or something once o get the endlers since they might compete for food. Right now I'm currently supplementing the fish and shrimp with some flake food, algae wafers,and hikaris crab cuisine.
Are there any other sources of live food I might be able to culture in the tank with the fish? I've been doing extensive research into this and so far it seems like black worms and tubifex might be the only things even possible, but I want to stay away from tubifex. Any comments or suggestions are highly appreciated, and I am more than happy to talk about any finer details of my tank if anyone has any questions! Thank you guys and I'll try to keep this thread up to date more!


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Here is a picture of my tank so far! Sorry if it comes out weird, uploading pictures from my phone seems weird on here for me


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Oh! Also I have a little corral set up in the front corner that I want to fill up with floating plants to hopefully increase fry survival rates, as well as to provide a reliable source of food for the inhabitants. I have frogbit and some Brazilian pennywort in there right now, but was thinking of possibly putting duckweed in there with the hopes that the corral would keep the growth in check. Are there any other plants the fish might like to eat? I still want the fish to have a nice selection of food, and I want them to be happy and in as natural of an environment as possible.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi. What filtration will you have on this tank? Without doing regular water changes I think a very LOW stocking level and intense planting will be neccesary to avoid a tank crash. ... Honestly, while I respect what you are trying to do, it is very hard to mimic nature in a glass box. It is not a pond or other aquatic source, and so toxins can build up so quickly. I wouldnt be a responsible fish keeper if I didnt reccomend that you do not do this. Water changes are needed, so is filtration. And your fish will surely appreciate being fed. This is my opinon.


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Summer said:


> Hi. What filtration will you have on this tank? Without doing regular water changes I think a very LOW stocking level and intense planting will be neccesary to avoid a tank crash. ... Honestly, while I respect what you are trying to do, it is very hard to mimic nature in a glass box. It is not a pond or other aquatic source, and so toxins can build up so quickly. I wouldnt be a responsible fish keeper if I didnt reccomend that you do not do this. Water changes are needed, so is filtration. And your fish will surely appreciate being fed. This is my opinon.


Hello! I know this is not an ideal environment as they are trapped in a box with littlnitra-zorb intervention from nature. I do plan on doing water changes as needed, as well as supplementing them with food and etc as needed. It's simply an experiment to see if I can do it. It's been done in the past apparently, although there's little documentation of it, which is what I seek to accomplish through this project. I definitely plan on performing water changes as needed, however the plan is to have the plants take care of most of the nitrates. I've tested the water frequently and have actually come up with 0 ppm for both ammonia and nitrites, and <10 ppm at all times for nitrates. I can't tell you the filtration exactly besides the fact that it's for 55 gallons and uses a combination of both activated carbon as well as one of those nitra-zorb type materials. It's not exactly nitra-zorb but something comparable. I know that this will never become fully self-sustaining, but I want it to be able to go for a month or two without interaction. Obviously without harming the fish. People have apparently been able to do this without doing anything besides a water change every few months, and the fish and shrimp still replicate, so I'm assuming that they're doing fairly well in the tank. Thank you for the concern though! I really want the fish to be happy, so that's why I came to this forum to try and get some helpful ideas  please let me know if you have any comments on something I'm doing wrong though. I like constructive criticism


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I am aware that it has been done before. There are several methods that I've heard of, Walsted being one. Again, this is simply my own opinion on the matter, but just because the fish survive doesnt mean they are thriving. My parents had a dog when I was a kid who lived 16 years on a 5 foot chain outside on cement. He lived, maybe even seemed happy, but clearly it was not ideal. 

I would reccomend at the very least a 50-60% water change every other week, if nothing else but to replace minerals and nutrients for the plant life and give the fish a fresh splash. I mean, even if its cycled, the fish still defacate and urinate in the water column. 

Good luck with your plans.


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Summer said:


> I am aware that it has been done before. There are several methods that I've heard of, Walsted being one. Again, this is simply my own opinion on the matter, but just because the fish survive doesnt mean they are thriving. My parents had a dog when I was a kid who lived 16 years on a 5 foot chain outside on cement. He lived, maybe even seemed happy, but clearly it was not ideal.
> 
> I would reccomend at the very least a 50-60% water change every other week, if nothing else but to replace minerals and nutrients for the plant life and give the fish a fresh splash. I mean, even if its cycled, the fish still defacate and urinate in the water column.
> 
> Good luck with your plans.


Thank you for the good wishes! I'm trying to do a walstad type tank, with an organic soil underneath a cap of sand. I'm going to move in about 6 months so I'm going to redo it then and hopefully make it better, which should fix the hydrogen sulfide issue. The whole idea is for the fish waste to feed the plants, as in nature. The nitrogen cycle is fully established and the waste should be converted into a more plant friendly material. As of right now I'm feeding them and regularly changing water, so everyone seems more than happy  just put a piece of kale in that the snails and fish seem to like more than the shrimp so that's interesting haha. Thanks again though! I appreciate all the advice given.


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

Update!
Alright so I finally got the endlers that I wanted and they're so wonderful. By far one of my favorite fish. I've heard many horror stories about keeping them with danios but so far they seem to do well together, they even school together! They still might be just a little too fast for my liking though. They will for sure make a snack out of any baby endler they see and I do not want that at all! So I'll have to see what to do with them.

I'm finishing up my little floating plant section. I didn't want to spend more money getting frogbit or any other floating plant so I've just been cutting off some alligator weed and putting it in there as it grows. In addition I've built a moss wall in the back corner, so hopefully the whole left side of the tank will be a perfect place for babies to hide and thrive!

For now I've been feeding them hikari algae wafers and crab cuisine, as well as spiruline flakes. None of them seem to resolve that the sinking food is in fact food though, so it tends to mostly go to the shrimp and snails. Still don't see any shrimp babies, which is mildly disappointing :/ but I'm still holding out hope!


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## welok (Jul 20, 2015)

A few things:

Shrimp (and other invertebrates like snails, crayfish, and the like) need minerals for their shells. Fish also absorb these minerals through their gills. They get these minerals from the water. In a natural ecosystem like a pond, they are re-introduced in the way of rain, and runoff from the surrounding area as the rain water moves towards the ponds. For this reason alone, I recommend water changes regardless of whether the levels in the tank say you need it or not. 

Also, without heavy filtration of some sort (you said you are using a submersible one rated for 55 gallon, which might not be quite enough), you will not be able to get the levels of feeders needed for both layers. You will need a sponge or something over the intake if you use a single filter, otherwise your baby shrimp/endlers will get sucked into it. I recommend at least double the "rated" filtration, if not more. 

You might want to start a second tank if you have time/room, as 20 cherry shrimp might not be enough to sustain the system. That would be a good starter colony, but you want a full colony before adding the endlers, so you almost always have babies for the baby endlers to feed on. Normal spawn times are around a month, so my recommendation would be at least 24 females, if not 48, so you would always have babies being born. Right now, I'm down to 3 females, with slow spawn rates, as I screwed up the first 2 pieces of advice above and lost most of my colony...

As far as plants, I would put in some duckweed (may or may not last, as endlers devour it) and some pelia. Both are good food sources for guppies and endlers, and should help with the non-protein portion of their diet.


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## malleyn (Jan 26, 2016)

welok said:


> A few things:
> 
> Shrimp (and other invertebrates like snails, crayfish, and the like) need minerals for their shells. Fish also absorb these minerals through their gills. They get these minerals from the water. In a natural ecosystem like a pond, they are re-introduced in the way of rain, and runoff from the surrounding area as the rain water moves towards the ponds. For this reason alone, I recommend water changes regardless of whether the levels in the tank say you need it or not.
> 
> ...


Hello there! Welcome and thank you for posting!

Worry not, as of right now I am performing regular water changes, not even just regular top ups. In addition, the hope is that by using a natural and organic soil as my base, the nutrients and minerals will make their way into the water column. If not, well than I am going to look into other long term solutions for this fix, such as putting some shells on/in the substrate.

Yeah I was thinking the same with the filtration. My hopes were that the plants themselves would be able to pick up any slack, but that assumption may be misguded as far as I know. I know that in a heavily planted tank, people have had reports of low ammonia/nitrates existing in their tanks, so that is something I am watching as the tank matures more. Im still as 0 ppm all across the board as of right now. I do have some filter sponge wrapped around all the intakes of the filter with the hopes of it stopping the babies from gettting sucked in. As of right now, Ive seen some smaller shrimp I got as well as small malaysian trumpet snails on it and doing just fine, so hopefully the baby shrimp would be ok.

I actually do have plenty more shrimp now, I ended up buying more and have 40+. Not that I could ever count them all anymore, but I bought 40+ more in addition to what I already had. From my understanding though, the baby endlers should not be eating the baby shrimp at all. I don't know if perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean there. In fact, the endlers seem to be the most absolutely docile fish I think I have ever had. The males will still chase the females, but they seem less aggressive than the shrimp almost haha. They certainly get more scared of them than vice versa.

I actually did put some duckweed into my tank recently. Its even trapped in my little corral and yet the fish seem to ignore it. They go into the corral and pick some food off the roots of the plants, and when the duckweed escaped once they all got excited thinking it was food, only to be disappointed after the first nibble. So I dont know what's up with that. I expected the duckweed to be eaten honestly lol. Thanks for the idea about the pelia though! I will defintely be looking into that. Anything to make the fish more happy and give them a more natural home!!

Thanks again for the replies everyone! I love hearing other people's ideas and it was forums like these that inspired me to start my own project!


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