# Using the Python for water changes with my Discus



## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Hi everyone, i'm new here, and have a question for all you discus pros i'm moving my current 3 discus (later will be 5 or 6) from my 40 to my 90 gallon in a couple weeks after cycling is complete (will be 8 weeks then) and am nervous about using the new (amazing) Python for my 90 going forward.. I used it once already and it's going to make my water changes a breeze! Love this thing! 

The problem is, with Discus in there, then putting tap water directly back in the tank before treating it with Prime, can't be good! My LFS says to put a 90 gallon treatment of Prime in the tank just before I add the tap water, and all is fine... 3 minutes before the prime works, and doing this every few days makes me think my discus will suffer. Thoughts? I have never done it this way, and would love to hear from anyone who's done it this way and all is good. Oh and btw, it's planted with flourite substrate, clown loaches, large angel, and other small shoalers. Thanks!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't use any python or similar device ,but if your discus are all good with your tap water(pH,kh,gH) then I would not worry.Your LFS gave you good advice.For prime and pythons you add enough prime for total volume of tank(not just water changed).I'll add although I don't do things this way(no python again) I do own a chlorine test kit and by the time I'm done filling my 30g water storage containers the amount of prime needed for 30 g has worked and my test say 0 chlorine.
Most everyone here with pythons or aqueon devices use prime just the way your LFS told you so I wouldn't worry too much.You gain confidence and comfort after some time(we all hate change to some degree!).
My discus do fine in my tap water also considering they are in a "community tank"(7.6pH/3kH/0gH).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Look for better info from Rod4Rodger and Leclair.They are both very good discus keepers.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks for the reassurance and advice coralbandit, I will give it a try once the discus are in there and watch for any stress signs, only other option I know of would be a submersible pump and a large plastic garbage pail to treat first then re-fill... Cheers!


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I do not recommend adding water to the tank that has not been de-chlorinated, had the chloramine removed, and is not at the same PH and temperature as the tank. It should be aged at least 24 hours with a bubbler and heater. 

That said, now the caveats and rambling on:

I have added water directly to my tank before. I would not if it contains chloramine. I am not very fond of the idea of doing it with chlorine. In my experience aged water at the right PH and temperature is the best. I had descent water in the past but my water now is so hard I have to use an RO/DI system and add Kent Marine River Right and Discus Essential. The Discus are healthier than they ever were on the aged and de-chlorinated tap water.

I highly recommend a plastic trash can with a heater and a bubbler. If you only have chlorine, no additive as long as your PH is fine and you bubble it for 24 hours. If you have chloramine, use something to get it out. Over time it will harm your Discus. It will also load your bio filter and make the new water old fast. 

Chloramine is so nasty even with chemicals to remove the chlorine it was like adding urinal water to the tank. 

When the chlorine molecule is released from the ammonia you have a new source of ammonia, your make up water. The only way to get out all the chloramine is with a carbon block filter. The ammonia can be removed with a very good carbon filter. It sounds like you may not have these problems since you have just been using tap water.

Our city changed from chlorine to chloramine and from aquifer water to surface water. Did they bother to tell anybody? Nooooo. I lost several Discus over a three or four month time frame until I figured out what they had done and went to the RO/DI system. It has been almost a year since with one death that took six months but never recovered from the illness the bad water caused so I credit his death to the city as well. 

I got a utility pump for two reasons, if my main sump pumps fail, I have a back up, and to move water from the trash can to the tank. I have a permanent 1" vacuum hose with ball valves in the end. The exhaust has a trap on it so it does not lose prime when I shut it off. I even ran a PVC line from the prep trash cans to the sump. I can drain and refill 100 gallons in about fifteen minutes or less.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I too prep water in 32/44 gallon barrels(rubbermaid garbage cans).You could still use your python to remove water.I have a pump and hose to return water to my sump also.So I don't use buckets.I pre heat ,aireate and age my water.I can change like 60 g in 3-5 minutes.It takes longer to refill my barrells than change water.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks guys, I originally had a submersible pump in my purchase package of the 90 gallon to do just that...looks like i'll be going back to buy it now... I was hoping to avoid the extra step and cost, and probably would try without if I didn't have discus. I can't take the chance❤!! BTW, LFS manager suggested a food grade barrel, since garbage cans may leech toxins unsafe for fish. Farm supply stores have them I believe (TSC).. Again, thanks for the good advice  cheers!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Discus are dime said:


> BTW, LFS manager suggested a food grade barrel, since garbage cans may leech toxins unsafe for fish. Farm supply stores have them I believe (TSC).. Again, thanks for the good advice  cheers!


You got good info from your LFS guy!I think my 4 latest rubbermaid garbage cans definately leeched something(mold release agent,algaecide...?)even after a week of rinsing and soaking.I lost my first fish placed in the tank I used these barrels for(120 from NJ) and continued to lose same 1 fish(poor royal grammas{3 of them over 2 weeks}) until I ran carbon in my tank for a week.My case in particular is what carbon is good for.Removing "whatever " is in our water that will not register on any of our test.
I think prepping water is the way to go as it will allow your pH to stabilise and could be very helpful like R4R said if by chance your water is treated with chloramine(which is chlorine bonded to ammonia!).


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Aww, that's unfortunate coralbandit , but does seem to underscore the need to be on the safe side! yea, this LFS guy (Big Al's if you're Canadian) is super knowledgable, although he told me he uses the python on the store 200 gal reef tanks running tap water back in! I guess their fish losses don't have the same financial impact on them when it's about efficiency, and time is money to them. Anyway, i've located a 55 gallon food grade barrel w/lid deemed safe for drinking water for $20, need to pick that up and then the pump... more work but I do feel better doing things this way, i've always babied my fish ❤ and should continue that practice! Thanks


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I have never had any problem with my Rubbermaid trashcans, but it is good to know. If I replace them in the future I will keep that in mind.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Hey guys, something I thought i'd share that I learned over the past week.. I found out that Rubbermaid makes a line of trash cans called BRUTE, they are color coded from the manufacturer...and gray, yellow, and white cans are FDA approved, any other color is not.. They are available at Home Depot, some of you may already have these which is great! I picked up a gray 33 gallon yesterday and did my water change using my python and submersible pump, super easy and fast! Fish are going in today


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It was /is the gray brutes I use and had the issue with.I hope you rinsed it well,Even if the container itself is safe it is possible for contaminants to get in/on the can at the store.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Hey guys, I have a question: do you deworm your discus? Food and water treatment ie. prazi pro? Treat with metro? I got a blue diamond a week ago and he's developed cloudy eye. Body turning a bit darker, but otherwise fine. Haven't been able to catch him when he's pooping, but water parameters are great, waterchange daily, adding salt, heat up to 86°. I'm getting confused with what i'm reading as to how to treat him....some say metro, some just salt and heat, some say deworm and some say all the above lol...i'm thinking all of it to be safe, please advise I want to address it quickly and don't know if these meds will do harm, or help safeguard them. Help! :animated_fish_swimm


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

New Discus Always Quarantine Easy Step Guide.
You should QT and deworm every fish added to a tank with discus.
I would move on to dewroming all fish in tank now.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks coralbandit, I will use prazi pro tomorrow. Do you use the liquid for the entire aquarium plus the food that has the dewormer in it? I can't get that food at my LFS, but wondered about soaking blood worms in the liquid so they ingest it?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I use a Brute trashcan also. Have never had problem with it and before that used something a little less-brute. Or if they are causing problems it is something I cannot directly relate it to. It only accounts for 50% of my water so maybe it doesn't affect it as much. I looked around for food-grade cans when I replaced this one. I guess it is a matter of looking at the right place as I had no luck.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I do still use all my Brutes(44 and [email protected]).I think the problem I encountered was some contaminent from the store(who knows what they spray or clean floors with)?
The big speculation in leaching from Brutes is BPA,and possibly phosphates.
The Phosphates are not a real concern to any keeper who knows about P04 as your food is the largest contributor going without any doubt,but the BPA is a source of concern mostly for saltwater(reef )keepers and very sensative inverts.It is of concern to many still as much is not known or the limits allowed are being questioned still.
What Is BPA (Bisphenol A)? Is BPA Harmful? - Medical News Today
Bisphenol A (BPA).
All this being said it is my opinion that most if not all fresh water keepers will have no trouble with this,but the storage of RO/DI is slightly more in question as this "water" will absorb anything as it is stripped completely of everything.Most studies sited LONG TERM storage of several months to even get any detectable level of anything.
If your storing/prepping water like most of us it will not last one week ,so the months to absorb should not be an issue either.
DAD:heres a link on the prazi
Prazipro Treatment for Internal Parasites, External Parasites Including Gill Flukes on Discus Fish,Angelfish and all Tropical Fish.
Here's one on metro;Treating Illness « NADA
And another link on general discus care;Disease 30 years experience keeping and breeding Discus fish Former editor of Our Discus Magazine a North American Discus Society Publication
These fish deserve(often demand) a little extra in every way you can imagine.You will keep busy and have your hands full if you really want to keep them healthy and happy!GOOD LUCK!


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Once again, thank you coralbandit I have not been aging my water and brag about my 20 minute water changes lol, but am seeing micro bubbles going back in (nitrogen, CO2?) along with a grayish haze to the treated water as it's being pumped back into the tank. Can't be good, right? (I believe it's dissolved gasses in my city water) If I aerate it for an hour, do you think that would work? If I have to age it overnight do I hang a heater into the trash can overnight? How do you do it? Sorry to be such a pain, I just appreciate advice from people who have more experience than I do, and have a system that works nicely... You've been extremely helpful to me so far!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I do actually have a heater in my barrel.Also airline and a powerhead?All these things are easy enough as I had them anyways.If you use a heater then you can just fill barrels with cold water which is better IMO.Many discussions before about how much higher TDS are from the water heater?
And yea if you got micro bubbles then letting water set up for 24 hours will definately let the pH settle to where it would "naturally" be as opposed to how it comes out of tap with all the additives from your water supplier.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Sounds good I had to google TDS lol, total dissolved solids, i've heard that it's higher in the hot water heater too. So fill barrel with cold water, drop in heater, and wait overnight. Prime etc. a few minutes b4 pumping back in. Sounds like a good plan  thanks!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I prime (actually use safe{seachems dry version of prime}) when I fill.No harm in adding it right away,it won't wear off or anything.I own a chlorine test kit so I do know it works almost instantly, but I like to treat when I fill just the same.
Discus keepers especially swear by aged water and some would never use anything but!


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Just an update on the WC barrel: I didn't have time to age it, so I tried something and it seems to have worked.. I held the python above the barrel when filling it rather than lay it inside submersed. I figured this would agitate the warm tap water going in thus speeding up the process. At the same time an airstone at the bottom to further aerate. Once the submersible pump was hooked up I ran it for about 10 minutes straight back into the barrel holding hose above, circulating some more. When I pumped it back into the aquarium soon after, that grayish haze was gone and micro bubbles were next to none the process of aging my water may come eventually, but I will try this for a while to see if it's consistent and non damaging to the fish. ATM, the ph is 7.2 in both aquarium and tap. High I know, as my driftwood lowers the ph in the tank over time, what's the best thing to do? Say eventually it's 6.6-6.8 in there, will my 7.2 tap water be too much of a shock with a 30% WC?


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I am on a well, and have untreated tap water. pH is 7.4 out of the faucet. When I change water, I am a bucketeer and do the 5 gallon shuffle right to the tank. I used Prime at first, but haven't bothered for the last few months. I just make sure the temp is the same as the tank and dump it in. Seems to be working fine, but would I see much benefit from curing water in a barrel for a day or so with a heater, bubbler and power head? A submersible pump in a barrel on wheels would certainly make water changes easier, but that aside am I doing myself an injustice by not curing my water?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Murph;letting your water age may allow the pH to adjust .What is the pH of your tank compared to out of your tap.Even thogh it is well water, it may "adjust" when exposed to open air.3 of my 32g rubbermaids are on the wheeled cart they make and sell especially for them.It really does make things so easy to pull the water right to the tank and prep it in another part of the basement.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DAD ; the difference 7.2 to 6.6 for water change really shouldn't be alot of trouble,BUT I would not give all the pH lowering credit to your wood.It is what MIGHT just take place if you aged your water.How water comes out of your tap is not always how it settles out.Again once exposed to oxygen the water will adjust to its natural level.
Most discus are not wild caught anymore so the low pH is not so necessary for keeping.It is more important(not even the pH but more the gH/kH) for breeding and the eggs.It is also the kH that holds your pH steady or not.
There can be some issues with microbubbles(not good) so I think you helping things be better even just doing it how you are.
I saw you pictures in the gallery!
Those are some very good looking fish!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Here's a post on gas bubble disease.It has been a while since I read the link, but I believe there was some good info in them and quickly reading just post;the air pump,and holding the python above the water(as you said you did) is a BIG help in this issue.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/gbd-gas-bubble-disease-42992.html?highlight=gas+bubble+disease


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> Murph;letting your water age may allow the pH to adjust .What is the pH of your tank compared to out of your tap.Even thogh it is well water, it may "adjust" when exposed to open air.3 of my 32g rubbermaids are on the wheeled cart they make and sell especially for them.It really does make things so easy to pull the water right to the tank and prep it in another part of the basement.


The tank and tap are the same pH. I think I will set up a barrel just to make life easier.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

Oh my.... Thanks CB for that link, It makes sense and answers a lot of questions I had. Seems like aging water is the only way to go if you are on city water. My tricks do help, but i'll have to consider a system for wc's that allow me to age it first. Biggest prob is my aquarium is in full view in my family room, big brute is gonna look bad sitting there so often. How do those wheels fare on hardwood floors? I'd hide it while it ages but unless they are soft rubber they will likely damage my floors. Anyway, thanks again. Great help, as always!
DAD (funny my acronym, when i'm actually a MOM lol!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Depending on how full you get the cans each will weigh about 250lbs. Your floor should be okay as long as you keep it clean. The clean surface will make sure the wheels don't scratch the floor.

Do you know what your actual ph is? Is the 7.2 value after the water has sat out for a while? Driftwood changes will fade over time and usually after a couple of months the effect that they were giving for ph, are gone.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Depending on how full you get the cans each will weigh about 250lbs. Your floor should be okay as long as you keep it clean. The clean surface will make sure the wheels don't scratch the floor.
> 
> Do you know what your actual ph is? Is the 7.2 value after the water has sat out for a while? Driftwood changes will fade over time and usually after a couple of months the effect that they were giving for ph, are gone.


Thanks, i'll see what I can manage (i'm not very strong lol), but i've been keeping fish for years with no adverse effects by not aging the water, just doing wc's differently (bucket) on a smaller scale (smaller tank) at this point i'm thinking my new agitation and aeration process with the larger volume brute might just make my tap water safe enough for my fish. I'll see how today's WC goes... 
The ph of my water appears to be 7.2 to 7.4, both tank and tap. Tank showed 7.6(bottom blue color) so tested high range and showed lowest value (7.4) and yet a week ago tank tested 7.2... B4 some big water changes that is. I know now my old tank suffered from "old tank syndrome" because test strips always showed 6.6-6.8. I don't think I need to worry about ph, i'm more concerned with bb#2 since i've had a couple low nitrite readings over the last couple weeks that stressed my fish. All should adjust soon enough, it appears meds really screwed things up with my newly established bio filter:/


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The wheels on the rubbermaid carts are rubber(urathane) so they shouldn't damage floor.Pulling even heavy wieght on wheels is not like lifting heavy weights.I would rather pull my 32G then pour a 5g bucket into a tank.I'm lucky that I can keep all these things in my basement so it is not an eyesoar.


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## discusbreeder (Oct 7, 2014)

I would concur that you do not add, to any tank, water is not prepared for the tank per Rod4Rodger. That said I do not do water changes, I use a larger filtration setup and a more natural tank.


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## Discus are dime (Apr 22, 2014)

I must also absolutely concur, Discusbreeder, with advice R4R shared, as well as others, it's been months now using aged water, and the proof is in the pudding lol. All my fish swim into the current of the aged water being pumped back during a WC rather than the beginning days of them hiding stressed when I tried using un-aged water. It takes 20 minutes doing 40% WC on a 90. No lifting, my life is a breeze, and my Discus love me for it 
I now have 3 female discus who take turns spawning, resulting in about 1 spawn a week. Same male, oddly enough, but have had approx 160 wigglers, hatched in a separate container. Artifically rearing is not for me, lost them all days 3 and 4 of free swimming. Can't get powdered egg yolk here, or do 5/6 feeds and wc's a day. So parents will have to be involved going forward, at least for the first week free swimming, then bbs they will eat and I could take over then We'll see, parents of a batch laid 48 hours ago just ate the eggs, again, maybe they'll get it right eventually at least they're having fun!
So, thanks to all who helped me get started, you really made all the difference in my success this far! 
Cheers!
Kathryn


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