# Ich



## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi all

I seem to be having a problem with Ich and need some advice!

I'll start with a brief history of my tank.

I started a 35L 9.25G tank about 2 months ago. It is heated to 24C (75F), has a pump with sponge and carbon cartridge. Also there is a venturi for adding oxygen to the tank.

I have a couple of plants in the tank too. One is a Echinodorus Paniculatus or Amazon Sword and the other (about 12 stems) is Elodea Densa.

The tank was filled with tap water (hard water and ph 8.5), the pump and heater switched on and then left to cycle. I added flaked fish food a couple of time during the 4 week cycling period. I had nitrites rise after about 3 weeks and then the nitrates went off the chart. A couple of days later, Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates were all at 0 (or very very low).

The plants brought some snails with them and these were in the tank whilst cycling. After about 3 weeks (from the start), there were 10 or more.

Once the tank had cycled, we went to the LFS to buy some fish.

We came home with: 6 x neon tetra, 1 x baby plec, 1 x dwarf loach (to eat the snails).

Having had bad experience with tank management in the past, I measured the all important ammonia levels on a daily basis. After 3-4 days, the dwarf loach seemed to be sluggish and not interested in swimming. We called the LFS and they said he is not well and they'd give us a refund. They told us to bring him in and then they would sort it out. Needless to say, he remembered how to swim when the net went into the tank. A couple of days later, he was sluggish again and hid in the plastic hollow log. He stopped moving and we assumed he was dead. We removed the log and tapped it lightly to make the (apparently) dead fish fall out. The fish then started wiggling proving that he wasn't dead, so we put him into a jar of tank water and took him to the LFS.

The LFS tested the water and said it was perfect. 0 ammonia etc. He said the Dwarf Loach had whitespot and that we needed "Protozin" to treat it. (Funny, they sold it to us at half price - guilt?)

We started the Protozin treatment as per the instructions and within 2 days, the Loach had died - and really died this time. I also disconnected the venturi from the filter (so it wasn't pulling oxygen into the tank) at the suggestion of the LFS. They said it would hurt the plants if there was too much oxygen in the water.

We stopped the treatment and carried on as normal thinking that the fish was simply "sickly" and vowed not to use this LFS again.

The neons were all looking a bit "gulpy". They were opening and closing their mouths very quickly and I wondered if they were being suffocated so I reattached the venturi. Within a couple of hours they were back to their normal selves.

However, 5 days ago (2 days after the death of the loach), I noticed some tiny white spots on a couple of the Neon Tetras. They looked like tiny crystals of salt or sugar, like you get on sundried tomatoes or fruit that is "sugaring". I thought "damn, the tetras have white spot now" so have started treating them with the Protozin (and also removed the carbon filter). One of the Tetras had lots, and I mean LOTS, of white spots. So much that there seemed to be more spot than fish.

I have been following the guide on the bottle of medication - 2ml per 30L + a couple of drops (since there is 35L). Three days into the treatment, we have 3 dead Tetras - all this evening.

I really don't know what to do now! The protozin says that it cures White spot in 3 days (treat tank on days 1,2,3 and finally day 6 as a preventative measure), but reading posts here it seems that the life cycle of the Ich is longer than this!

I'm getting really upset with the loss of fish (and more importantly, I hate the suffering). I have tried so hard and it seems that everything is against me.

Incidentally, the Plec seems as happy as ever, munching his way around the tank. I'm not sure if he has any white spot, since his colouring contains whitish spots already!


Sorry for the long post...

Dan


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## Tess (Nov 15, 2010)

Hello. If i were you, i would try eSHa Exit, because it doesn't kill the filterbacteria. 
Change 50% of the water, then i mean clean the bottom as well. Then you can start the medication. Change 25% of the water every secound day (before the medication). When you don't see any symptoms on your fishes, like breathing fast/itching/no spots, keep the cure for about 48 hours to be sure you kill the parasite  I hope this will help and you understand my bad english  Good luck!


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

You can also raise your tank temp to 86.This will cause the ich to grow too rapid to multiply.Never heard oxygen hurting plants.Quick cure has worked well for me,and i have Macrostomas,who are known for getting severely difficult ich strains,many whom die from it regardless treatment.I treated mine with it and they are fine.But it will stain things blue.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Most meds are too strong for Tetras/Loaches. Some of mine say use half the dose for twice the period for those types of fish. I'd do a water change and reduce the dose.

If you don't want to medicate you could just increase the temp. Salt helps also. Both togther works better. Increase the temp to 89 degrees over a day and hold it there for 3 days beyond the last visible sign. Typical ich cycle is 4 days with an increased temp. At 87 degrees the protozoa stop reproducing and at 89 the temp starts to kill it.


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi all, thanks for your help.

I got up this morning and ALL the remaining neons have died.

I have vacuumed the gravel (which the plec did not enjoy - he tried to jump out!) and have replaced the carbon filter in the filter-pump.

I think the temperature/salt routine maybe a "nicer" option for the sole surviving fish.

JRMAN, are you sure that 89 degrees is safe for my Plecostomus? My book of fish recommends 72-79F... I really don't want to lose him too!

Can I use natural sea salt (with no additives) in the water? If so, how much do I use? Will the salt hurt the plants?

One last thing, how often should I change the water in the tank? I was under the impression that you only change the water if the nitrates/nitrites/ammonia get out of hand.

Thanks again.

Dan


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

89 is fine just do so slowly.Tropical fish adapt just fine like if it was summer.BUT keep the oxygen going as its very hard to keep dissolved oxygen in higher temps.Thats what usually kills the fish,lack of oxygen.


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

majerah1 said:


> 89 is fine just do so slowly.Tropical fish adapt just fine like if it was summer.BUT keep the oxygen going as its very hard to keep dissolved oxygen in higher temps.Thats what usually kills the fish,lack of oxygen.


When you say slowly, how slowly do you mean? I need to raise the temperature from 79F to 89F... Surely that needs to be over a few days?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think the meds you used were too strong for tetras. If you treat for ich again with meds a good rule is half the med, twice the recommended period. Do this all every time and it won't matter what type of fish you keep. 

Easier and cheaper to treat with a higher temp. Most fish can tolerate higher temps. Over a 24hr period should be fine, but is really up to you as long as it is not a drastic change. I did it over a 36hr period. Set to 82 from 78, then to 85, and then to 89. - just 3 changes. I use aquarium salt and use the recommended amounts. If you research ich treatment, most places will recommend much higher amounts than what is on the carton. Not sure on your plants. Most will handle small amounts of salt and some are even brackish water plants.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Just as jrman said,over the course of 24 hours is fine.Just up a few degrees every few hours.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. I hope your pleco is ok, do you know what kind of pleco he is? Some plecos get really big and you have a small tank.


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

snail said:


> Sorry for your loss. I hope your pleco is ok, do you know what kind of pleco he is? Some plecos get really big and you have a small tank.


Thanks. The pleco is the standard type (according to the LFS) which means he will outgrow the tank. He is about 2" long at the moment and doesn't seem to be bothered that he's all alone. My concerns about the temperature seem to be unfounded since he spends a lot of his time sucking the heater! I had hoped to be able to convince the family that an upgrade to a big tank would be a good idea, however, with this current mortality i wonder if I'll manage now.

Do you know how long it will be until the Pleco is too large for the tank?


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

I just wondered... The Plec has been stuck to the top of the heater practically all day, right in the stream of bubbles from the filter pump/venturi. He doesn't appear to be moving much - should I be concerned?

Thanks


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nudge him. If I see fish sit in one place for long periods of time I'll prod them to make sure they are still alive.


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

Turned the pump off and he started whizzing about again!

Thanks


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Here is some one on youtube who seemed to have success with their pleco: YouTube - PLECOSTOMUS -- 19 inches long !!


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

Maybe I'm paranoid now... but I think the Plec is "acting up". He seems to have stayed still for most of the day but got scared and hid when I came home!

Does he look ok to any of you who know about these things?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I think it's normal that plecos don't move much in the day and they like to hide also.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

As I understand it you have a tank with a bunch or two of anacharis and some amazon swords.

You have 0 ammonia. You had some spikes initially but now ammonia, nitrIte, and nitrates are all unmeasureable.

You have white spots and have added several treatments (chemicals) to fight white spots and fish losses (mainly neon tetras).

You did not mention potting soil or peat moss in your substrates.

A pleco seems to be doing well.


I have has similiar problems with neon tetras before I added peat moss to the substrate.

I would recommend you try that and also measure KH and gh if you have not already. The peat moss in my tank keeps kh and gh constant whereas both increase with no peat moss. I also use no mechanical filters, no mechanical circulation and do no water changes.

I recommend you not add chemicals of any kind. the fish's immune system is the most effective means of fighting ich.

Neons can be a problem but I think you are actually much closer to having a good tank then you realize. It seems to be balanced out and you seem to be watching things to prevent over feeding. 

Perhaps all that happened was the neons were totally in the best of health. Especially after a few died to you had 2-3 left instead of the 5 or more to form a school.


my .02


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd also through in a recommendation for cardinals instead of neons.. just for the increased immunity to neon tetra disease. I'm sure you had ich, but I'm worried I got NTD from some neons I brought into my main tank without quarantine.


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## Dango (Nov 18, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> ...I think you are actually much closer to having a good tank then you realize...


Thank you for that. I believe my tank _is_ good. That's why it was so upsetting (especially for the children) that it all went wrong! For your information, ALL the neons died from Ich - first of all, one would hide in the (plastic) log and then none of them stayed together, not eating or anything. A day later all had spots - a couple were so bad they were white with neon-spots.

The pleco appeared to have one or two spots and has had a 4-5 days of high temperature therapy. I'm now going to let the tank cool back to the normal state. I'm a little concerned that the Pleco is not doing her normal "hoovering" of all things slimy... She has a little burst of energy now and again but is now spending most of her time lying on the gravel. I'm a bit concerned since previously she would hang from her mouth and never lie on the bottom...

I've never fed the Pleco since she has always seemed ok with the natrual foraging. I was feeding the other fish with Tetra Fin Prima (didn't buy from here, but it's a good picture). The Pleco would sometimes eat a bit of the food, but never seemed keen on it.


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