# Fish lying on floor



## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

Hi everyone, I'm new here and also relatively new to having fish.
I bought a 30 litres tank (which after measurement is more like 23lts or 6 gallons) and put 5 fish in it.
After two weeks, just before leaving on a trip I saw some of them had Ich, particularly the fish in question. This fish seemed the most affected and exhibited odd behaviour, hiding behind the filter and laying on the bottom of the tank.
So I gave them a couple of doses of "Sera Costapur" and "Metronidazol Normon" as recommended by the person who sold me the fish, as well as removing the active carbon part of the filter.

I left them after the third day of the medicine for my weeklong trip.
One of the fish died while I was away so a friend had to come over and remove it from the tank on the same day it died. Before dying we saw it through a webcam swimming vertically, we had left them with a vacation fish food (a white shell that disintegrates over time) and read online that swimming vertically is common symptom of overeating, so that could have been what killed it.

After we returned we saw all the fish looking good and very active. 
And fearing ammonia intoxication changed half the water in the tank (even though we had changed a third of it before using the medicine a week before).
But today since the morning the big one (the fish in question) has been lying on the bottom of the tank again, when I get close he starts swimming very actively but a minute after I leave he goes back to the same spot.
Here's a video:
"youtube.com/watch?v=_kNtcarLegE"


Since our return from the trip we have closely monitored the water with eSHa Aqua quick test and here are the current values:

nitrate 100 mg/l
nitrite 25 mg/l (?)
GH~DT~TH >21ºd
KH~TAC~Carbonate Hardness 5ºd
pH 7,2

Also Ich is no longer visible on the fish and I have tried really hard looking for it. I've read this is also a symptom of ammonia poisoning, but I changed a lot of the water and the dead fish was promptly removed.

*c/p*

Your feedback is very much appreciated.
Regards,
JunCTionS.


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## theguppyman (Jan 10, 2010)

First did you make sure the water you add was similar in conditions like Ph and temperature ? as that could cause shock. The biggest mistake I think you made was not having a quarantine tank set up so you can treat a sick fish without threating our tank and the rest of your fish, so I would suggest you get a ammonia test kit ASAP to either conform or deny the ammonia poisoning,I dont think it is ammonia poisoning as the symptoms include the Fish gasp for breath at the water surface, is he doing that ? are his gills getting red ?
if so then it is ammonia poisoning, I would suggest you lower your Ph, do a 25% to 50% water change, reduce the feedings and go out to a LFS and ask them for some ammonia neutralizing chemical. Keep us posted.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Maybe over crowding? 5 fish in a 6 gallon tank is a lot. (And the fish in the video looks like a gold fish, which get HUGE and need very large tanks). Maybe they are getting stressed from being over crowded? I hope things turn out well - keep us posted.


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## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

theguppyman said:


> First did you make sure the water you add was similar in conditions like Ph and temperature ? as that could cause shock. The biggest mistake I think you made was not having a quarantine tank set up so you can treat a sick fish without threating our tank and the rest of your fish, so I would suggest you get a ammonia test kit ASAP to either conform or deny the ammonia poisoning,I dont think it is ammonia poisoning as the symptoms include the Fish gasp for breath at the water surface, is he doing that ? are his gills getting red ?
> if so then it is ammonia poisoning, I would suggest you lower your Ph, do a 25% to 50% water change, reduce the feedings and go out to a LFS and ask them for some ammonia neutralizing chemical. Keep us posted.


The water was in similar pH conditions, although it could have been colder, I'll try to take care of that next time. Still he developed the symptom more than a day later.
Also he was the most sick one in the first place (and some of the others also showed some white spots of the Ich by the time we noticed them).
In the different tests the pH was measured both at 6,8 and 7,2 (that's the precision of the test, so it seems to be around 7)
He's not going up much to the surface and what we can see of his gills look normal.
Where I live nothing opens on Sunday, but I'll go tomorrow and get the ammonia test from the pet shop (we also don't have LFS unless you mean "Le Fish Shop"  ).


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## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

holly12 said:


> Maybe over crowding? 5 fish in a 6 gallon tank is a lot. (And the fish in the video looks like a gold fish, which get HUGE and need very large tanks). Maybe they are getting stressed from being over crowded? I hope things turn out well - keep us posted.


Maybe... I hope not. I was told at two stores that a good measure was 1cm of fish per liter. These fish being about 5 cm and the sick one about 8cm that was about 28 cm when I bought them (23 now after one of the yellow ones died). But I've seen this is a bit of a vague rule.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I hear you. I was always told 1 inch of fish per gallon, so that's what I did for my 10 gallon tank....... it turns out that's not a fantastic rule and I lost a lot of fish. (Even what I have now is a lot for my size tank). I've got a delicate balance going on and I have to be really careful because it's so full. Any small change in water parameters, or illness of the critters and it will all come crashing down. (At least I know better for next time).

Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

theguppyman said:


> The biggest mistake I think you made was not having a quarantine tank set up so you can treat a sick fish without threating our tank and the rest of your fish


By the way, for this quarantine tank, should I also provide filter and gravel? should it be big? or can I use a glass flower vase I have at home?.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

For the fish that you have you need at least 55 gal as a bare minimum and use the smaller tank as a quarantine. Gold fish actually need at least 20 gal for the first fish and 15 gal more for each additional fish.


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## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

susankat said:


> For the fish that you have you need at least 55 gal as a bare minimum and use the smaller tank as a quarantine. Gold fish actually need at least 20 gal for the first fish and 15 gal more for each additional fish.


I'll keep your feedback in mind, although my only option (money-wise) would be to return some of the fishy to the pet store. And also I'd like more references on this as everyone seems to have a different opinion.

I also have only plastic algae at the moment, do you think real algae are necessary?


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## JunCTionS (May 22, 2011)

theguppyman said:


> I would suggest you get a ammonia test kit ASAP to either conform or deny the ammonia poisoning,I dont think it is ammonia poisoning as the symptoms include the Fish gasp for breath at the water surface, is he doing that ? are his gills getting red ?


I'm unsure whether it's now gasping for breath... it appears to be so.
youtube.com/watch?v=z3Lpnt7cPhc
Should I wait for tomorrow's ammonia test to avoid unnecessary shock from water change (although I'd wait for it to warm up now), or should I do it now without testing?

I'm also thinking of boiling the water (and then cooling it before adding it), where I live water hardness is very high, I read somewhere that boiling it might help reduce this factor.


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## theguppyman (Jan 10, 2010)

The gills do look red, and he is gasping, so Im almost 100% that it is ammonia poisoning so keep on doing water changes, but remember keep it between 25% to 50% no more, and get the ammonia reducing chemical ASAP(I know its Sunday but get it tomorrow) 
Also holly12 has a point goldfish poop a lot so they need lots of space, 20 gallons each. I would suggest you give them back to the store, and get something smaller maybe guppies.
Also you asked about the quarantine tank it should be a 5 gallon bare bottom, filtered(make sure it has been cycled) tank. Not that much too it really.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

If you put the fish in before cycling the tank, your fish will have to endure high levels of ammonia while the bacteria builds up in the tank that converts ammonia to nitrite. Then the fish will have to endure high levels of nitrite, which is just as toxic as ammonia if not more so, as bacteria forms to convert this to nitrate, which can be tolerated in much higher amounts. The process takes 2-8 weeks and nitrite-eating bacteria takes about twice as long to multiply as ammonia-eating bacteria. The only way for your fish to be safe and not expire at the cost of the tank cycling is daily water changes, and even then they will be at risk because you'll want some presence of ammonia so the bacteria can form.

Another thing, 6 gallons is not large enough for a single goldfish let alone 5 as they produce a ton of waste. I know it's common to see goldfish in bowls but these fish perish quickly if the water isn't changed daily and they don't live very happy and stimulating lives. Please do the fish a favor and take them all back. 6 gallons is maybe enough for a couple Guppies (or other similarly small fish) and a few ghost shrimp, but not much else. Perhaps a male Betta would be happy in such a setup.

You might want to invest in an ammonia removing filter medium for your filter. I have seen Aquaclear versions, but don't know if the brand of filter you have offers one. Not entirely sure on how effective the medium is, but it couldn't hurt.

Lastly, the Ich will probably still be present in the tank. Treatment for Ich is only effective on newly formed parasites that have been released into the tank from the bottom and are in search of a host. The parasites on your fish are immune. Thus you have to give treatment every day for 14 or so days (the average life cycle of Ich I believe) to ensure you dosed the medication when the Ich was in the stage where it was susceptible to the treatment. Aquariums should be able to be relatively self sufficient and chemicals/medications shouldn't be your main method of keeping the tank in check, use these measures as a last resort.


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## theguppyman (Jan 10, 2010)

*i/a*


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