# I Have Some Bad News...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Our Red Cap Oranda that was affected by the open blister/ulcer has died as well. The only fish left now is the Black Moor...

I think the tank was about to crash anyway, as we drained the water and are in the process of transfering the Moor to a new holding tank -- when we began draining the water and using the syphon to clean the gravel, ALL KINDS OF DISGUSTING DEBRIS came floating up from under the substrate and decor...slime, what appeared to be mold, fish poop, filthy dirt particles...it almost clogged the syphon tube up it was so thick and nasty...

This tank is in HORRENDOUS condition, what with the infection that ran through it and all the decor and plants being slimed over by some filthy mass; we are stripping it down to start over, and will transfer the Moor to a new small Goldfish Starter "tank" of some kind while we clean the main tank...

This is going to open up a whole new battery of issues and questions for me, though...first of all, did we do the right thing by draining this infected tank now that all the fish but one have died? If so, is it "normal" to start over when a tank kind of crashes? With the re-setup process, we know we are going to throw away the decor, gravel, bubble wands and plants -- as well as all filter media at this point -- because these are more than likely badly infected with whatever "bug" this was on the goldfish that killed them...but how do we go about disinfecting the tank itself and the power HOB filters? Do we use bleach of some kind?

We also need to start thinking about new aquascaping ideas for the new setup when it's time...I don't know what kind of theme to go with...


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I think that disinfecting after a breakout of disease is always a good thing to do. you don't have to throw away all of your decor. Just sterilize them. Is the tank that the one surviving moore is in right now cycled already?
I personally always disinfect with and bleach and water solution, though some use a vinegar solution. if you want to be super careful, you could boil as much of the decor as you can before putting it back in the tank. Sorry to hear you had such a hard time


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> I think that disinfecting after a breakout of disease is always a good thing to do. you don't have to throw away all of your decor. Just sterilize them. Is the tank that the one surviving moore is in right now cycled already?
> I personally always disinfect with and bleach and water solution, though some use a vinegar solution. if you want to be super careful, you could boil as much of the decor as you can before putting it back in the tank. Sorry to hear you had such a hard time


Thank you, Manafel...

We actually have decided to throw out all the old decor and gravel because we just want to start over with a new theme in the tank; we were doing the pirate/shipwreck thing before and want to do something totally different. So, we're going to go with new plastic plants and decor...

As for the tank our surviving Moor is in, we just put him in one of those "Marina 7 goldfish starter kits" for kids that my wife ran out and picked up at Petsmart just to get him in something with a filter and clean water -- we added already cycled water they sold at the store as well as a purifying pack that was included in the kit. The plastic tank comes with a plant and gravel, but the thing is, the Moor is now creating stools that have the white "tufts" at the end, indicating he/she too is infected by whatever was in my main tank. I don't know what else I can do for her at this point.

As for cleaning down the tank and filters -- how is this done with bleach? Does the tank need to be washed down in a tub with a bleach/water solution?


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

It sounds like a parasitic problem to me. that is one thing I don't like about goldish, they are almost always sick because they are just so dirty. as far as adding cycled water goes, the Beneficial bacteria that you need for a cycled tank is not in the water, but in the filter media and substrate. If you have a friend nearby with a healthy tank, ask if you can have some of each to help with cycling the new tank the moore is in. Putting him in an un cycled tank could potentially make him worse. Be sure to keep up with your water changes. Where exactly did this water come from out of the pet store?

When you disinfect the tank(this is what I planned to do with my 75) you can fill it up with water, and add bleach and just run the tank and filters with that water for 24-48 hours. Then drain it, wash it out really well, and let it sun dry outside for a few more days. The bleach is for the more drastic measures though. for most, just vinegar and water would suffice. I forgot to ask. what size tank is this?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> It sounds like a parasitic problem to me. that is one thing I don't like about goldish, they are almost always sick because they are just so dirty.


Indeed; as much as I love the exotic fantails, they just always seem to get sick on us and die -- we lost at least six new fish over the past couple of months within a few weeks time, and although I suspect it was Petsmart's selection of the stock, I can't help but think they're just so "ripe" for sickness and bacteria...

We have been contemplating switching to tropicals -- perhaps a tank of angels -- or maybe chiclids, as the Red Blood Parrots are gorgeous, but we don't know yet. We first have to clean this tank out good and worry about the Black Moor...



> as far as adding cycled water goes, the Beneficial bacteria that you need for a cycled tank is not in the water, but in the filter media and substrate. If you have a friend nearby with a healthy tank, ask if you can have some of each to help with cycling the new tank the moore is in. Putting him in an un cycled tank could potentially make him worse. Be sure to keep up with your water changes. Where exactly did this water come from out of the pet store?


Petsmart sells prepackaged "cycled" ready-to-pour tank water in jugs -- I can't find a link for it anywhere, but it exists in their stores. According to the directions, this water is ready-to-go and just required the addition of some packet of stuff with it...



> When you disinfect the tank(this is what I planned to do with my 75) you can fill it up with water, and add bleach and just run the tank and filters with that water for 24-48 hours. Then drain it, wash it out really well, and let it sun dry outside for a few more days. The bleach is for the more drastic measures though. for most, just vinegar and water would suffice. I forgot to ask. what size tank is this?


Per my signature, this is a 60 gallon rectangular; is there any way to wash the tank down without having to run filters with the bleach and all that? Would the vinegar and water work for this kind of bacterial infection that was in here? If we went the vinegar and water method, how is this applied -- does all the glass get washed down with a rag dipped in a vinegar/water mix?

BTW -- this is what we bought for the Moor:

Marina Goldfish 1.77 Gallon Aquarium Starter Kit - Specialty Pet Month - Featured Products - PetSmart


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

You could just fill it with a vinegar and salt mix, I can't remember the water to vinegar ratio, but just wiping it down with a rag and leaving it for a bit would be how I would do it. Then I would just rinse it out once or twice with hot water and I think you would be good to go. like I said, the bleach is for really bad stuff.

The whole petsmart pre-cycled water sounds like a hogwash scheme to me... the BB that is required to turn ammonia to nirtites to nitrates isn't in the water, it's on the surface areas of the tank(the tank, filter, substrate, filter media)

a 60 would be great for africans, they are awesome. But community would be good too


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Whatever you do, if you have goldfish or other large herbivores, you need to regularly gravel vacuum the tank when you do your weekly 50% water changes (which you must with goldfish- 25% with other types of fish). A great investment is a python system, as goldfish are heavy waste producers and water changes are even more important for them than for others.

I would not clean, and bleach. Clean thoroughly and refill with tap. It will have chlorine. And frankly, whatever disease was there blossomed because of an injury, and what you now know is a dirty tank (we live and learn) harbouring the bacteria in question. It's in your moor anyway, and it probably won't blossom on him/her.

Make sure you use a fine grained gravel for goldies, plecos, and other heavy duty poopers - the wastes don't fall through as easily.

Fish store water is dangerous stuff - a bit like bed linen from a sleazy hotel - it has no benefits to the cycle, but it has quite possibly had some bugs passing though. I'd be leery of a store that that thought their water had value - they aren't very knowledgeable.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your loss.

I agree with not sterilizing. What you posted about did not sound like it was some disease that was tearing through your fish. Leave the filter alone and you won't have to worry about cycle stuff when you get new fish and setup everything again. I think most people over react to things like this and in the long run it never mattered. But, if it makes you feel better....I understand.

I also agree with the water thing. Not much bacteria in water to do much of anything.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi Guys,

It has been very hard to cope with our loss; we miss our fantails a lot and the house is not the same without them. Right now, we're trying desperately to save the Black Moor who was left (we put her in an emergency "Marina Cool 7 Goldfish Kit" that's ridiculously small, just temporarily to get her out of the infected,filthy tank water she was in) as well as monitor the health of the Red Cap Oranda who caused all this mess, in addition to some tankmates we bought him today, in the recently-cycled 10 gallon. 

First of all, with regard to the "prepackaged water" issue -- this isn't hogwash...the jug the water came in is legitimately labeled as "ready to use" water without the need for waiting for a cycle (I assume without the beneficial bacteria that grows on the substrate, filters, etc.) and it wasn't just some water Petsmart sold us without a label or anything in some strange jar...it was a big jug with labeling on the back and front. Regardless, the Black Moor who received this water is doing okay since she's been put in hours ago, and the water is absolutely crystal-clear in that little holding tank...

Now, here is the dilemma we're running into with the tank that just crashed -- this thing is NASTY. Whatever water is left is absolutely BLACK and disgusting, with gross floating masses of debris and slime-like formations...all of this was under our substrate and decor, so it was probably a crash waiting to happen. My wife and I spent ALL DAY cleaning this tank out -- it's too large to move with any water in it, and we can't manage to pick it up even with very little water in it, so all the cleaning and cleansing will have to be done at the tank itself. I can't even get all the water out of this thing, as it got too low to continue syphoning, and we can't scoop any more out with a giant plastic spoon thing we have been using. Plus, there's still more gravel left in there...this disgusting, bacteria-infected water made our skin itch and get irritated just touching it, and I am ready to just throw the whole towel in already...I don't know if I can go through this with another tank setup...

How can we get the remainder of the water out? It has like an inch or two left at the bottom of the tank...should I attempt to let it evaporate? And what about the remainder of the gravel? Once everything is out and drained, how do I go about cleaning this tank without taking it over to a tub to be washed down with scalding hot water? What do I use?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You can use a big plastic cup (like the large cups you would get served with fast food) to scoop it out. I have even used a plastic dust pan to sort of shovel it all out. Once you get it all out you should be able to siphon down further to where you only have maybe 1" of water in it. That much water should not be too heavy as long as all the gravel is out.

Don't think that because your water is black or it stings your hand that something is wrong with it. The color is just the stirring up of all the stuff that has slipped down into the substrate all this time. This is why many people push for weekly gravel vacuums for gf tanks....but otherwise, absolutely normal for a tank that has been running a while.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

did you never siphon the gravel???? im sorry to say no wonder the fish didnt get better! changing the water is one thing but like others have said when the gravel is full of fith it has to be vacuumed at every water change. any way i had the same problem with emptying the last bits of water coz our tanks to big to move and what we done was, get as much out as poss using the siphon then a glass to get every bit of gravel out and more water, then started sponging took ages but got it all out. maybe get one of those big car cleaning sponges? 
re sterilizing it, id do what navigator said, put un treated tap water in and run the filter for a few day and do water changed till the water is clear. oh and clean the filter in tap water, you'll have to re cycle the tank but thats inevitable now anyway. chlorine and chloramines are put in the water to kill bacteria. id never use bleach on my my tank.

can you post a link to this water as i truly would love to know what miracle water this is!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

You can label anything, but it doesn't mean it works. Ready to use water can come from the tap - but it doesn't mean there's a scientific foundation to it working. All water is ready to use, and skepticism is healthy.

Umm, buying tankmates for a recently cycled ten gallon with a goldfish in it is wave two of the disease waiting to happen. First off, I think you set it up last week, didn't you. Wasn't it a response to the original spawning behavior from the new fish? You can will it to be cycled, but is it so?

Goldfish should be kept at 20 gallons per fish when young, 30 when bigger, due to their enormous waste output. By now, I expect we're both thinking this disease was not due to nipping, but was a crash of a tank that had gotten out of control. 

A good emptying trick is to empty, partially refill, siphon, partilally refill, etc. Stir it up every time. 

I think you have hit a wall here. We've all been there - the way you were doing things, which you thought worked, didn't, and the fish died as a result. That is frankly crappy, but it happens. You just have to clean up the mess and plan ahead, evaluating your techniques and choosing more workable ones. Try testing to see if what you think is happening is really happening, and be leery of appearances. Crystal clear water can be toxic as ammonia in water doesn't show. Labelling water as ready to use isn't false advertising, but all water is ready to use if an anti chloramine agent as been sprinked in it. As soon as it is contact with living fish, it changes, and if you don't have a cycled tank, it becomes polluted.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> You can use a big plastic cup (like the large cups you would get served with fast food) to scoop it out. I have even used a plastic dust pan to sort of shovel it all out. Once you get it all out you should be able to siphon down further to where you only have maybe 1" of water in it. That much water should not be too heavy as long as all the gravel is out.


We have about one inch of water only -- and it's still too heavy for us. We're going out to the dollar store to get a dust pan (suggested to me on another site ironically) to try and get the rest of this crap in the tank out so we can turn our attention to the disinfecting stage; we also need a small syphon to clean the 10 gallon. The spending on this hobby alone (and we have others) just never ends...



> Don't think that because your water is black or it stings your hand that something is wrong with it. The color is just the stirring up of all the stuff that has slipped down into the substrate all this time. This is why many people push for weekly gravel vacuums for gf tanks....but otherwise, absolutely normal for a tank that has been running a while.


Is it possible this filthy substrate is what contributed to the fish loss we experienced?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> did you never siphon the gravel???? im sorry to say no wonder the fish didnt get better! changing the water is one thing but like others have said when the gravel is full of fith it has to be vacuumed at every water change.


We syphoned the gravel -- if at all -- maybe once or twice (that's pushing it) in the two years it's running. But could that have contributed to why the fish didn't heal from the bacterial infection? The Red Cap and Chocolate Fantail that recently died have been in the tank since it has been set up...around two and a half years now...why would they all of a sudden get sick and die? Was it the open wounds on their skin that was "vulnerable" to the bacteria that may have been in the tank? 

I'm just trying to figure all this out to learn from it...



> any way i had the same problem with emptying the last bits of water coz our tanks to big to move and what we done was, get as much out as poss using the siphon then a glass to get every bit of gravel out and more water, then started sponging took ages but got it all out. maybe get one of those big car cleaning sponges?


We did the syphon, then the vase method, scooping out as much as we can that way with the vase...now, it's just too low for anything else to get in there and collect the water...



> re sterilizing it, id do what navigator said, put un treated tap water in and run the filter for a few day and do water changed till the water is clear. oh and clean the filter in tap water, you'll have to re cycle the tank but thats inevitable now anyway. chlorine and chloramines are put in the water to kill bacteria. id never use bleach on my my tank.


The thing is, we don't want to set the filters back up until the tank is cleaned and new substrate is put in. 



> can you post a link to this water as i truly would love to know what miracle water this is!


I cannot find the water on Petsmart's site, or anywhere else online for that matter -- very strange, but we did buy the jug at the store.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> You can label anything, but it doesn't mean it works. Ready to use water can come from the tap - but it doesn't mean there's a scientific foundation to it working. All water is ready to use, and skepticism is healthy.


I understand that on extreme hobbyist forums skepticism about this matter would run rampant -- perhaps I shouldn't state that it "wasn't hogwash" per se; all I can report is that the water hasn't caused our Moor any harm thus far, and remains absolutely pristine-looking (no clouds) and that the labeling on this jug of water claimed the hobbyist didn't have to "wait for a cycle" to begin by using this water. 



> Umm, buying tankmates for a recently cycled ten gallon with a goldfish in it is wave two of the disease waiting to happen. First off, I think you set it up last week, didn't you. Wasn't it a response to the original spawning behavior from the new fish? You can will it to be cycled, but is it so?


I'm not sure if you are confusing the two separate situations going on:

We have the Red Cap Oranda who caused the infection in the 60 gallon by picking at the other two that died in a separate 10 gallon that had been treated with Seachem's Stability for a week (the correct dose according to the bottle). I have been doing water changes on this tank, dosing with Prime each time, and we are going to do a substrate vac soon. This is the tank the two new (tiny) goldies were added to, just so we could monitor the aggressive behavior of the Red Cap further and see if tankmates would make him a bit happier versus being totally alone in the 10 gallon.

The Black Moor, who seemingly thus far has survived the infection breakout from the 60 gallon, has been isolated herself in the small "Marina Cool 7" goldfish kit plastic tank, away from the fish in the 10 gallon, incase she has been completely consumed by the infection; she seemingly is feeling better than when she was in the main tank breathing that disgusting water and filth in her gills, and when we first put her in the Marina tank, all kinds of disgusting, flaky debris came falling off her scales, sucked up by the little filter this kit came with. So she was covered in whatever muck was infecting the water of our 60 gallon -- I refuse to believe she is not getting SOME kind of relief by being in this new 2-gallon holding "tank" with clean water...

HOWEVER -- we desperately need to get the Moor into larger living quarters, so that's why we are scrambling to get the 60 gallon cleaned, sterilized and up and running again because we'd like to put her back in there, even if it's only with substrate for the time being. She can't stay in this two gallon "kid's kit"...



> Goldfish should be kept at 20 gallons per fish when young, 30 when bigger, due to their enormous waste output. By now, I expect we're both thinking this disease was not due to nipping, but was a crash of a tank that had gotten out of control.


Here's what I know about what happened to my tank: Yes, there was a debris-loaded substrate layer slowly contaminating the water (even though the API water tests always came back not indicating dangerous levels) but once this aggressive Red Cap started chasing and nipping at the rear ends of the two larger fantails in the established tank, it opened up sores on their bodies and they slowly succumbed to a bacteria-like infection. I am theorizing that perhaps the water was ridiculously dirty, under the surface, and bacteria just waiting to take hold of any open wound -- once they were nipped at and broke open, the infection took that stranglehold. 

As for the goldfish stocking, I understand the parameters -- we had an emergency with our aggressive Red Cap when we pulled him out of the 60 gallon to isolate him. We HAD TO separate him from the two he was picking on, and we could not afford anything larger than a 10 gallon starter kit. THAT is why he is in the 10 gallon, because we had no choice -- I am not saying this is a permanent home, but he needs to stay there until we figure out what we are going to do with the main tank. As for the two we added to his tank yesterday, these are really small goldies -- they're tiny, and seem to be okay in the 10 gallon with the Red Cap FOR NOW. We just wanted to give the Red Cap some company in the isolation tank and to monitor his behavior with other fish once more. I was always under the assumption that goldies should get 10 gallons per fish, no matter the size; so, in our 60 gallon we could stock six of them...this isn't so or recommended?



> A good emptying trick is to empty, partially refill, siphon, partilally refill, etc. Stir it up every time.


I just don't know how we're going to go about bleaching and cleaning the inside and out of the aquarium once it's emptied... 



> I think you have hit a wall here. We've all been there - the way you were doing things, which you thought worked, didn't, and the fish died as a result. That is frankly crappy, but it happens. You just have to clean up the mess and plan ahead, evaluating your techniques and choosing more workable ones. Try testing to see if what you think is happening is really happening, and be leery of appearances. Crystal clear water can be toxic as ammonia in water doesn't show. Labelling water as ready to use isn't false advertising, but all water is ready to use if an anti chloramine agent as been sprinked in it. As soon as it is contact with living fish, it changes, and if you don't have a cycled tank, it becomes polluted.


I do indeed feel like we have hit a brick wall; we don't know what to do because the beautiful upstairs loft room this tank occupies has been thrown into chaos with disgusting tank water splashed everywhere, gross tank components all over the place, horrific-smelling water at the bottom of the drained tank and more...it has ruined the carpet, pretty much, in the loft and has done other damage. The water in the little 2-gallon Marina goldfish kit tank does look clear, and I'm aware that clear water doesn't mean the water is good, but I just mentioned it because normally when tap water (treated) is added to start a tank, it goes instantly cloudy as it cycles. This did NOT happen with the water we added from the store. The fish seems to be okay, as well, in the water. But this is just a temporary situation; that's why we MUST somehow get the 60 gallon up and running again if we're going to save the Moor's life -- and QUICKLY.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

No need to bleach just get a sponge in there n sponge out the rest od the water then wipe down the glass....put the new gravel in n fill with tap water, run the filter for a day, take half the water out n re fill with primed water then put ur fish in n do as u would a normal cycle.....justmake sure ever water change u do in every tank u own is 50% once a week n vqccum the gravel with in an inch of its life or next time year fish has a wound same willhappen.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> No need to bleach just get a sponge in there n sponge out the rest od the water then wipe down the glass....put the new gravel in n fill with tap water, run the filter for a day, take half the water out n re fill with primed water then put ur fish in n do as u would a normal


What we planned on doing was somehow getting this tank sterilized and pristine, the same with the HOB filters, then filling up with new substrate and tank water, getting the filters flowing then adding Seachem's Stability to kick-start the cycle, eventually moving the Black Moor goldfish into the 60 gallon again and seeing what happens from there...first, though, we need to continue cleaning out the tank and observing the Moor's behavior to make sure she isn't carrying the infection from the other tank because if she is, she is just going to re-infect the new water from the cleaned 60 gallon and we'll be back where we started...



> justmake sure ever water change u do in every tank u own is 50% once a week n vqccum the gravel with in an inch of its life or next time year fish has a wound same willhappen.


Do we really need to do 50% a WEEK with the over-filtration and Purigen packs we use? Don't forget -- we're running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 good for over 300 GPH AND an AquaClear 110 good for like 500 GPH, so that's like over 800 GPH for a 60 gallon...plus, 300ml of Purigen spread throughout each filter...wouldn't this allow us to stretch the water changes a bit?


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

ClinicaTerra said:


> What we planned on doing was somehow getting this tank sterilized and pristine, the same with the HOB filters, then filling up with new substrate and tank water, getting the filters flowing then adding Seachem's Stability to kick-start the cycle, eventually moving the Black Moor goldfish into the 60 gallon again and seeing what happens from there...first, though, we need to continue cleaning out the tank and observing the Moor's behavior to make sure she isn't carrying the infection from the other tank because if she is, she is just going to re-infect the new water from the cleaned 60 gallon and we'll be back where we started...
> 
> 
> 
> Do we really need to do 50% a WEEK with the over-filtration and Purigen packs we use? Don't forget -- we're running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 good for over 300 GPH AND an AquaClear 110 good for like 500 GPH, so that's like over 800 GPH for a 60 gallon...plus, 300ml of Purigen spread throughout each filter...wouldn't this allow us to stretch the water changes a bit?



Just thought I would clarify my intentions, bleaching is only for drastic measures. Goldfish are very dirty animals. 50% is the recommended amount per week to keep them healthy. from what it sounds like, your fish's immune systems were compromised because of poor water quality because you did not vacuum the substrate, therefore, making them more susceptible to the illness. If you keep the water nice and clean, your fish will be healthy enough to fight off infections.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> Just thought I would clarify my intentions, bleaching is only for drastic measures. Goldfish are very dirty animals. 50% is the recommended amount per week to keep them healthy. from what it sounds like, your fish's immune systems were compromised because of poor water quality because you did not vacuum the substrate, therefore, making them more susceptible to the illness. If you keep the water nice and clean, your fish will be healthy enough to fight off infections.


Thank you.

Indeed, it seems like that is exactly what happened -- there must have been a TON of bacteria floating around down there and it entered their open wounds. 

Would you consider our tank situation a "drastic measure"? It did have an infection in there that killed the fish -- would using the peroxide work just as well?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

FYI:

THIS is what we used in the 2-gallon plastic tank for the Moor:

Ready Water

Petsmart sold it...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Do we really need to do 50% a WEEK with the over-filtration and Purigen packs we use? Don't forget -- we're running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 good for over 300 GPH AND an AquaClear 110 good for like 500 GPH, so that's like over 800 GPH for a 60 gallon...plus, 300ml of Purigen spread throughout each filter...wouldn't this allow us to stretch the water changes a bit?


In actuality, that could be a low estimate. Have you tried going to a gf forum and ask what the more successful ones do for their prized gf? My guess it is a 2x per week water change that combined is quite a bit more than 50% or it is 50% each time. I challenge you to do 50% per week for a few weeks in a row and just watch at how clean your water stays and see how active and healthy your fish are. Your filters will never make up for what you need to do for water changes.

Remember, it is entirely possible that what happened was the result of the environment your fish were in.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Basically, they sold a jug of clean water. There's nothing wrong with it, but it is nothing special either. 

No matter what filter you have, once it has cycled and been colonized by bacteria, it just buys time. With a heavy bodied high waste fish like a goldie, it doesn't buy much time. I won't touch a goldfish with a bargepole, because they take so much work to keep properly. 50% weekly changes are a chore, but for big goldies, they are what you should do.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> In actuality, that could be a low estimate.


What do you mean? It would really require TWO 50% water changes per week?



> Have you tried going to a gf forum and ask what the more successful ones do for their prized gf?


I considered joining the Koko's forum (one of the more popular goldfish oriented sites) but they seem to be far more advanced in the hobby than we'll ever be...but I still visit from time to time and will probably join...



> My guess it is a 2x per week water change that combined is quite a bit more than 50% or it is 50% each time.


So, I think you just answered my question above unless I am mistaken...



> I challenge you to do 50% per week for a few weeks in a row and just watch at how clean your water stays and see how active and healthy your fish are. Your filters will never make up for what you need to do for water changes.


Do you mean once the 60 is up and running? If so, I will accept the challenge and let you know how that goes...



> Remember, it is entirely possible that what happened was the result of the environment your fish were in.


Yes, I remember and I am aware.....we're VERY saddened because of knowing this as well...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> Basically, they sold a jug of clean water. There's nothing wrong with it, but it is nothing special either.


Well, whatever the water is doing, the Moor seems to be doing alright in it for NOW -- we absolutely HAD to get her out of the main tank due to the contamination levels and I have absolutely no doubt that she is breathing and feeling better than compared to being in that muck from the 60 gallon...



> No matter what filter you have, once it has cycled and been colonized by bacteria, it just buys time. With a heavy bodied high waste fish like a goldie, it doesn't buy much time. I won't touch a goldfish with a bargepole, because they take so much work to keep properly. 50% weekly changes are a chore, but for big goldies, they are what you should do.


You know, I never quite understood what the point of filtration was then if we have to do SO much other work to the water -- isn't the point of ANY filter, whether it's in a car A/C system, a home or a pool, to do the work of FILTERING out bad air, water, etc on its own? Of course, over time maintenance needs to step in to replace cartridges, air filters, etc. and some hands-on work needs to be done (water changes in a pool, fish tank, etc.) but for the most part, what good is very heavy filtration of an investment if so much maintenance needs to be done constantly?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I know this will sound weird, but an aquarium filter is like an animal. Or at least you should think of it as an animal. It removes little debris, but it is a living colony of bacteria, and without those bacteria, your tank will get about as far as you would if your intestinal bacteria vanished never to return. The filter is a platform for life, and is not strictly a mechanism like in a car or a furnace. What you do with a filter is farm a beneficial life form to allow your tank to flourish from it. I hope that doesn't sound too 'out there', but that's the famous cycle. 

The fish wastes are consumed by the bacteria, and are partially detoxified as they are digested. Digestion produces waste, and the bacterial waste from highly toxic ammonia (their food) becomes a much less toxic substance. In time, it builds up and you lose the advantage. But if you remove it with a water change, then the cycle runs smoothly and the fish aren't wallowing in wastes.

Goldfish produce huge amounts of waste, and they really challenge the ability of the bacterial fauna to keep up. A goldfish tank is raining big macs, and even the best bacterial filter can't eat that much. So you end up stuck with the chore of changing their water. They really are pond fish, and I wouldn't bring them in my house. It's like having a pet cow in the loft.

Smaller fish produce smaller waste loads, and usually have much more developed stomachs than goldfish. Less waste and more refined waste can get you down to needing 25% water changes weekly, with no terrible consequences if you occasionally miss a week - an easier and more relaxing hobby.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

ClinicaTerra said:


> What we planned on doing was somehow getting this tank sterilized and pristine, the same with the HOB filters, then filling up with new substrate and tank water, getting the filters flowing then adding Seachem's Stability to kick-start the cycle, eventually moving the Black Moor goldfish into the 60 gallon again and seeing what happens from there...first, though, we need to continue cleaning out the tank and observing the Moor's behavior to make sure she isn't carrying the infection from the other tank because if she is, she is just going to re-infect the new water from the cleaned 60 gallon and we'll be back where we started...
> 
> 
> 
> Do we really need to do 50% a WEEK with the over-filtration and Purigen packs we use? Don't forget -- we're running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 good for over 300 GPH AND an AquaClear 110 good for like 500 GPH, so that's like over 800 GPH for a 60 gallon...plus, 300ml of Purigen spread throughout each filter...wouldn't this allow us to stretch the water changes a bit?


tap water will clean it.

everyone has answered why water changes are so important but can i just add with the water changes the gravel needs to be vacuumed! i know i keep repeating myself but its so very important!!!! our pleco has a massive bio load and until we changed from gravel to sand i didnt realise how much! he can cover a quite substantial area in poo in minuets!!!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you, Navigator and Zero; I will chew on your insight and consider all of it.

Meanwhile, the Moor seems to be holding on and doing okay (as best as she can do) in the two gallon holding system for now, continuing to eat and swim, and the other three in the 10 gallon have acclimated and are doing fine. We are continuing to map out a trajectory plan for cleaning the 60 gallon so the Moor has somewhere to go, but we are thinking of going down the hydrogen peroxide route rather than the bleach because the bleach is just downright scary if it gets on anything or if it's overdosed...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

U don't need to add peroxide either! Just straight tap water will do it fine. If u add peroxide you have to put the tank some where n rince n rinse n rince n I'm quite sure u don't wana hold the tank up for that long!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Wait -- you're saying to use JUST ordinary tap water to get this infected tank sanitary? That's all that's needed...not chemicals or anti-bacterial stuff like peroxide or bleach?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

yes ive been saying it for a while!!!!!! i personally dont bleach things as i dont trust ill wash it off enought. tap water is treated to kill bacteria to make it safe to drink which is why we treat tap water to make it safe for aquariums. so i boil everything ie gravel, plants. then fill the tank with tap water and run the filter to make sure the chlorine etc has got to every part of the tank empty leave to dry completly then fill with treated water. i dont know if my ways are right but what im seeing time and again is all these chemicals people use in tanks are so unnecessary and dont really work. id rather do things natural.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm having a little bit of a hard time following your procedure here, so please bear with me...

What are you saying to do FIRST: Wipe the dirty, empty tank down with HOT TAP WATER? 

Then what -- FILL IT UP with tap water, then run the FILTERS, then DRAIN with the syphon...and FILL IT UP AGAIN?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Without bacteria, your tank is dangerous. If you sterilize your tank, it is not fit for life. So you will then have to invest 4-6 weeks to make it properly "dirty". So clean it so it *looks* clean - warm tap, something to remove any algae, etc. When it's clean, refill it. Dechloraminate it. Add the moor and cycle it slowly and carefully, over weeks checking how the bacteria are getting established. Make sure you have good biological filtration, and that it stays good. Vacuum the gravel once a month at least, change water weekly and enjoy. 

No cleansers, bleaches, peroxide etc. It would just give you more to undo. 

You accidentally tipped a balance to allow a dangerous bacteria to attack your fish. But if you get an infection from a rusty nail in the yard, do you soak the yard in gasoline and throw grenades at it? 
Hmm, that sounds like fun...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*UPDATE TO TANK RE-ESTABLISHMENT:*

Hi, Navigator (I did not see your post until AFTER I did the following) and Everyone. 

Okay -- I had some down time today after finishing a work assignment (I am a freelance writer) and finished scooping out the remaining gravel from the old setup, draining the little bit of water left and then proceeded to hose down the entire tank with a lot of 409 anti-bacterial solution, wiping in all the crevices and nooks, and then poured some scalding hot water in the tank to rinse, drained that, then splashed hydrogen peroxide all over the inside glass walls, wiped that around with some paper towels, then added scalding hot water again (via bucket trips from the bathroom) and as of right now, the tank is sitting there with about 1/8 of hot water just kind of mixing with whatever peroxide was left; when my wife gets home we're going to grab some dinner and when we return, I will probably continue with the cleaning task...

Oh -- I also sprayed a LOT of 409 all over both HOB filter housings which are still sitting in the bathtub, rinsed those with hot water, and will dunk them in a vinegar solution too later...I hope this at least kills the bacteria on the filters...

So, what is next, in my mind, is this: Adding more burning hot water to the tank to swish some more of the peroxide off, then draining it, then perhaps doing the OUTSIDE glass of the tank with 409, then perhaps Windex treatments, until finally being able to dry it all and start washing down the new gravel with scalding hot water before adding it to the bottom of the tank and then begin adding new fresh cold water that will eventually be the beginning of the new water treatment (Prime, Stability) and finally getting the filters up and running with some new media...

At this point, can anyone confirm for me if this is a good enough route to disinfecting this aquarium? To recap, what I did was:

1. Sprayed the whole inside with a LOT of 409 antibacterial chemical

2. Wiped that good in every crevice with paper towel

3. Filled up a bucket with scalding hot water and poured it into the tank to swish around some of the 409

4. Syphoned out that water

5. Added some more hot water and syphoned that out

6. Splashed peroxide all over the inner glass and used paper towels to wipe it around all over the crevices and corners

7. Poured more buckets of scalding hot water into the tank to kind of swish and rinse some of the peroxide off

8. Let some hot water sit in the tank now

That's where I'm up to right now and all I could do for the moment -- does this sound like it should kill at least some of the bacteria from this tank?

Also -- I noticed, due to the "algae magnet" cleaning thing we used a couple of times to get diatoms off the glass, that the inner parts of the tank in certain places have pretty nasty scratches...is this normal? Is this something worth getting a new tank over, or are glass scratches just going to happen?

Thank you, everyone!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Careful you don't crack it with the scalding water.

409 is not a product I've ever seen where I live, but frankly, I would never put a commercial cleaner into a fishtank. I went online to see if I could find the active ingredients for you, but they seem to be a trade secret. They do advertize grease cutting, and most chemicals used for grease cutting are deadly poisons to fish. Even mild soap should never ever contact the interior of a tank. 
The first line of defence of any fish is its slime coating. Strip that and it is doomed. And guess what even traces of anti-grease agents or soap do to skin mucous on fish...

I'm sorry to say, but I suspect you are now seriously in trouble with that tank. Good luck...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> Careful you don't crack it with the scalding water.


An aquarium's glass can be CRACKED by extremely hot water? 



> 409 is not a product I've ever seen where I live, but frankly, I would never put a commercial cleaner into a fishtank. I went online to see if I could find the active ingredients for you, but they seem to be a trade secret. They do advertize grease cutting, and most chemicals used for grease cutting are deadly poisons to fish. Even mild soap should never ever contact the interior of a tank.
> The first line of defence of any fish is its slime coating. Strip that and it is doomed. And guess what even traces of anti-grease agents or soap do to skin mucous on fish...


Here is the skinny on Formula 409:

Formula 409

I seriously don't think that by the time ALL chemicals are washed out of this tank, it will cause a problem -- it's not like I am leaving any of this stuff in there; it's just to neutralize and kill the bacterial infection that ran rampant through it. I'm not just going to throw the Black Moor and other fish in there a couple of hours after spraying the tank with chemicals...



> I'm sorry to say, but I suspect you are now seriously in trouble with that tank. Good luck...


Thanks, even though that's not reassuring from your end...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*UPDATE:*

Sterilization process proceeding; just about complete -- I rinsed all the inside glass surfaces of the tank with scalding hot water once again, via wiping them down with a sponge dipped in a bucket of the hot water, and I used Formula 409 and then glass cleaner on the OUTER surfaces of the glass. What's left now is a few inches of water at the bottom of the tank which I can't suck out with the new Top Fin syphon we bought; the level is too low, so I am struggling with that...

Soon, I will turn my attention to the filters and their media -- I have new Aqueon cartridges at the ready, but I need fresh media for the AquaClear 110 (the sponge block insert and ceramic rings)...I also have to begin washing down the new gravel in hot water to put into the tank and buy a new one-piece glass versa-top for this 60 gallon (the two separate glass tops I had previously are absolutely DRENCHED in a white, mucky lime filth so I am just going to toss them), plus new airline tubing and new bubble bars (Petco)...until eventually I can figure out a way to get the lime deposits off my HOBs' plastic covers.

Also -- I noticed that my AquaClear's u-shaped intake tube is caked in brown algae and diatoms and other slime, and no matter how much boiling hot water or Formula 409 I put into it, the muck just won't break off. I was going to try a pipe cleaner of some kind to reach in there and scrape the stuff off, but I think I'd rather just replace the u-tube...does anyone know where I can get this piece really, really cheap but brand new (an AquaClear 110 u-shaped intake tube replacement)?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

We've all given you the best advice and youve not followed it! Infact you've just done the total opersite!! At least one od the guys has, if I remember correctly, 45 years keeping fish so to ask for help then to not follow it....I dunno I'm done with this thread! Sorry if I sound rude, hope ur fish r ok when they go back in there.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm sorry you feel that way, zero, I truly do. I appreciate all your assistance that you offered in the thread, regardless of how you feel personally about my decisions. I just felt like all this sterilization was necessary due to the downright vile and nasty infection that was in this tank. My decision to do what I did had absolutely nothing to do with blatantly disrespecting or ignoring Nav or anyone else here as if to say "I don't care what these people say..." That was NOT how it was at all in my mind, nor do I disregard the fact that some have many years of experience in the hobby on this forum and who have contributed. I just felt like I needed to do what I felt was the best course of action in light of this infectious outbreak. 

At this point, I put the new natural-colored gravel in the tank, sloped it so the bed is higher in the rear, sterilized the glass tops and cleaned them, same with the light fixture housing and the air pumps. When I get back later with the new bubble bars, I am going to bury them under the gravel in back and add water to the tank. This is not anywhere near ready for fish, and I realize and want to express that.

Thank you.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*UPDATE:*

Well, we have transferred the Black Moor ("Ebony") into the re-established and sterilized 60 gallon, and she is happy and doing well! We finally accomplished our goal for the immediate moment -- getting the last survivor of the bacterial infection out of her two gallon holding "tank" and back into the cleaned up, ready-to-cycle 60 gallon! She seems so much happier, able to swim with plenty of room again, and with clean, fresh water...I can't believe it, but in under a week, we were able to save this goldfish's life and finally get her back into the bigger tank that was once the scene of a homicide-by-infection...

Here are some details: I did the API freshwater tests today on the 60 gallon, which had been running for about 24 hours with new bubble bars and the Aqueon QuietFlow 55 filter (I still have to get media for the AquaClear), and everything checked out -- ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I started the first dose of Seachem's Stability, then added more Prime, and we transferred the Moor from the tiny startup tank she was in to a Ziplock bag, then floated her in the 60 gallon for awhile so she could get acclimated to the temperature, then let her out...

So now I have to keep with the week-long Stability dose, as I did in the 10 gallon (which ended up being a success, as the three goldies in there are fine and doing well; I just did a 50% water change on that tank today) and then slowly re-introduce a community of fancy goldies back to the tank; we also have to decorate and put plants in, but I need a lot of help with ideas for that...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

i cant stay away!!!!! glad all is well....hopefully it stays that way! when you say the test checked out, what were the prams? will you still be holding up your promise to do 50% weekly water changes with vaccuming the gravel every time??? id put pong weed in, we got some for one of our tanks yesterday and i staggared it across a bit of the front of the tank and they love swimming in and around it! plus the little ones like to hide in the top ill take some pictures later to show you what i mean. plus it was 85p for a massive clump of it so very cheap!


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I can't stay away either. It's like watching a train wreck.

If you had taken a little time and done some research on bacterial life in fishtanks, filtration and just the basics of aquariums, you would be very very very nervous right now. But it would seem you only read what you write yourself, so there you have it. You are looking pleased and from pure luck, you may just get away with that you did. 

I'm posting because I wouldn't want all this effort you put into cleaning, sterilizing and scorching the earth in your tank to be a model for anyone else. Don't try this at home, anyone who reads this.

If you had done some research, you would have found it interesting to discover that your technique has killed all the beneficial bacteria that your fish depend on, and live in symbiosis with, but as an example, the common and deadly aquarium bacterium _Mycobacter marinum can survive and rapidly reproduce *immediately after* pure bleach and boiling water. You might have discovered that M. marinum is one of many bacteria that produce large sores on the body of a fish, and is a common problem with goldfish. 

So with this frenzy of cleaning in spite of all the advice honestly offered, you took the Mr Clean's aquarium route anyway. You have certainly killed 99% of the good bacteria, and a few of the bad ones. After all, the pathogens have been sitting inside your moor the whole time - his/her intestines and lymphatic system are a tough neighbourhood, but one life flourishes in. 

You'll never see it, but your tank is now an arms race with chemical weapons. There is no balance left. Ammonia will spike because you have killed the filtration, and how the surviving bacterial fauna reacts will determine if you still have fish in a month. The survivors may yet save your tank.

Rest assured, you will always have bacteria._


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

You know, it's kind of tragic in certain ways, but I have been _nothing_ but honest, kind, respectful and dilligent in all my replies to each and every one of you -- to take this bordering-on-insulting stance now with these cheap shots, quite honestly, via replies such as "If you would have read up on it or done some research, you would have seen..." and suggest that my threads report signs of a "train wreck" is just downright rude; what I know right now is what I know, and it isn't because it's just that I am "listening" or "believing what I wrote" in this thread update. 

I even replied to Zero in a very kind, honest and thoughtful fashion that I was sorry she felt the way she did and that my intention was *never to mistrust, ignore or otherwise disregard the input from members like Navigator who have been assisting in this thread, nor was it to question anyone's experience level or knowledge in the hobby. Whether this is believed by you guys and gals, that is the G-d's honest truth.* Still, even taking this approach with apologizing and responding in a mature, honest fashion, I am still insulted and my comments called "a train wreck waiting to happen" while the thread is being sarcastically and hurtfully labeled one that "cannot be stayed away from;" incredible.

At any rate, to answer Zero's inquiry about the API results: Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all came back as being in the safe zone based on the color chart comparisons (Ammonia read straight up yellow and the others were in their correct zones as well). 

The Black Moor is doing very well -- she is swimming, eating and behaving much better now that she is out of the 2-gallon holding cell and I am on my second day of Stability; I don't honestly believe this is all coming together simply out of "sheer luck." Our main objective was to save at least her life from the bacterial infection breakout of the last setup so we are going to continue trying to do that; I never suggested we were planning on adding more fish anytime soon until we have the water and the cycle under some kind of control and regiment, but with the Black Moor situation, she desperately needed a home out of that 2 gallon, so that's where we're at now.

Whether this is believed or not -- and I _know_ it is from my personal standpoint -- I do appreciate all the prior assistance given with this dilemma.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

ClinicaTerra said:


> You know, it's kind of tragic in certain ways, but I have been _nothing_ but honest, kind, respectful and dilligent in all my replies to each and every one of you -- to take this bordering-on-insulting stance now with these cheap shots, quite honestly, via replies such as "If you would have read up on it or done some research, you would have seen..." and suggest that my threads report signs of a "train wreck" is just downright rude; what I know right now is what I know, and it isn't because it's just that I am "listening" or "believing what I wrote" in this thread update.
> 
> I even replied to Zero in a very kind, honest and thoughtful fashion that I was sorry she felt the way she did and that my intention was *never to mistrust, ignore or otherwise disregard the input from members like Navigator who have been assisting in this thread, nor was it to question anyone's experience level or knowledge in the hobby. Whether this is believed by you guys and gals, that is the G-d's honest truth.* Still, even taking this approach with apologizing and responding in a mature, honest fashion, I am still insulted and my comments called "a train wreck waiting to happen" while the thread is being sarcastically and hurtfully labeled one that "cannot be stayed away from;" incredible.
> 
> ...


I do see where you could get these feelings, but a few things to consider:
1. though bleach is also a cleaning item, I wouldn't think about using any kind of soap/cleaning product to clean a tank, but it is to late for this time around. Chlorine(if I'm right) is kind of like bleach, hence why just tap water could have done the trick.
2. glass in general will crack or shatter if you put water too hot in too fast, have you ever taken glass off of a flame and tried to wash it off in clean water? thankfully though, an aquarium has thick glass.
3.it might take a few days for you to get ammonia readings, and I'm glad that everything has worked out for now, but be sure to monitor your readings for a week or more. I don't see how it would be possible for you to have any Beneficial bacteria left after everything. it would really suck for you to lose your goldfish to ammonia poisoning after all of this.
4. you can buy replacement parts for your filters off of ebay


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

"At any rate, to answer Zero's inquiry about the API results: Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all came back as being in the safe zone based on the color chart comparisons (Ammonia read straight up yellow and the others were in their correct zones as well). "

i dont use the same test kit as you so if you could post numbers? would be good to see how your cycle does.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> I do see where you could get these feelings


Thanks...



> 1. though bleach is also a cleaning item, I wouldn't think about using any kind of soap/cleaning product to clean a tank, but it is to late for this time around. Chlorine(if I'm right) is kind of like bleach, hence why just tap water could have done the trick.


Okay; but again, we just felt like we had a bit of an extreme situation here, given what kind of breakout this was and how bad our tank looked once all the gravel and decor was removed -- it was ABSOLUTELY REVOLTING, in appearance and odor, with a sickening thick layer of slimy muck at the very bottom and water that ended up appearing BLACK. We did not feel, at the time, that hot tap water would have remedied this situation and killed the infection. 



> 2. glass in general will crack or shatter if you put water too hot in too fast, have you ever taken glass off of a flame and tried to wash it off in clean water? thankfully though, an aquarium has thick glass.


Okay, fair enough; indeed, I have experienced the very hot-to very cold breaking glass phenomenon, but I didn't think the water I poured into the tank was THAT scalding, quite honestly. At any rate, all is good with that...



> 3.it might take a few days for you to get ammonia readings, and I'm glad that everything has worked out for now, but be sure to monitor your readings for a week or more. I don't see how it would be possible for you to have any Beneficial bacteria left after everything. it would really suck for you to lose your goldfish to ammonia poisoning after all of this.


I didn't expect to have any beneficial bacteria left after this re-establishment; I wanted to re-cycle from scratch. The thing was getting this Moor into the tank as soon as possible, with support from Prime and Stability, because she was in absolutely intolerable conditions in the two-gallon plastic Marina Cool 7 Goldfish holding "tank." I expect ammonia readings to rise as the tank re-matures, but let me ask this: Is it okay to do water changes WHILE I am using Seachem's Stability which is supposed to establish the bio-system within a week?



> 4. you can buy replacement parts for your filters off of ebay


Thank you; I actually found a replacement intake tube and strainer for the AquaClear 110 in the box for the filter itself, which I still had, and which they (Hagen) apparently includes as a backup...so I'm using that new intake strainer. The u-shaped tubing that feeds the water to the pump was the bigger issue, as this was loaded with debris and algae and I couldn't get it all out without the use of a pipe cleaning brush or something. I just left that in place.

However, something else came up with regard to the filters that I'm concerned about -- I bought a replacement sponge block and "BioMax" media for the AquaClear at Petsmart, both to fit the model 110 filter I have, but the BioMax is much different than what came with the filter when I first bought it. Included in the box when you first open the Hagen AquaClears is the sponge, pouches of carbon and the BioMax ceramic rings -- however, the rings were very large and were to be placed in a large net bag in the filter (all included)...these new BioMax replacements came in two small prepackaged media bags and the ceramic rings themselves were TINY compared to the original sack...

Do you know anything about the replacement media Hagen sells separately from the filters and if it's normal for the BioMax rings to be much smaller in the replacement packages?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

They come in different sizes so don't worry about it .


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> They come in different sizes so don't worry about it .


What do you mean? Different sizes for the different sized/model filters, or varying sizes from the factory for those specific models? 

In other words, Hagen makes BioMax rings for, say, the 110 model in multiple sizes just for the sake of doing that?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

I googled these rings and the first website thatcame up shows they make 2 types of rings first link is pre filter rings second is filter rings. What one did u get?
Hagen Fluval Pre-Filter Media, 750 gram


Hagen Fluval BioMax Ceramic Rings 500G (17.63 oz)


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

There may be more types but u can find out. Just google it.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Zero,

While Hagen makes both Fluval and AquaClear products, my filters are AquaClears, so I bought THESE:

http://www.amazon.com/Hagen-A1374-A...40747500&sr=1-1&keywords=aquaclear+110+biomax

However -- the Fluval rings in the second link YOU provided look more like what came ORIGINALLY with my AquaClear 110 filter in the box...large, oversized ceramic "noodles" as compared to the dual packs of the very small noodles that came in the AquaClear "replacement" packages I just bought...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*UPDATE:*

Here is an update with regard to the API freshwater test kit battery I just ran:

Okay -- on my *10 gallon* which has been running for about two weeks now (dosed with Stability for a week, and getting Prime with every water change, stocked with three smallish goldfish):

The API results were:

*Ammonia: 0.50-1.0 (these were definitely on the high side probably due to the stocking of this tank)
NitrIte: 0.25-0.50
NitrAte: 0*

Now, on the *60 gallon*, the API results came out to:

*Ammonia: Between 0 and 0.25
NitrIte: Approx. 0.25
NitrAte: 0*

Some of these are so difficult to read for me for some reason because the color codes look like they could fall into many different areas; can someone help me analyze these and let me know if the 60 gallon in particular needs an immediate water change? I believe the 10 gallon needs one based on these numbers, yes? If so, should I do 50%? 

Could the 10 gallon still be in the cycling process even though I used Stability for the week? I mean, it's only up and running for about two weeks...


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

yes the 10 needs a 50% done. and id do one in the 60 too. you need to do 50% min once a week for the rest of those fishes lives anyway!

you can clearly see the 10 is still cycling as there is ammonia and nitrite reading! 

heres what you need to do......test the water and when it gets to .25 ammonia do a water change, keep doing till there is no ammonia, then keep testing the nitrite and when it gets to .25 do a water change. keep repeating untill the readings go 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 20 nitrate. and keep it there. and dont for get vaccum the gravel!!!!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> yes the 10 needs a 50% done. and id do one in the 60 too. you need to do 50% min once a week for the rest of those fishes lives anyway!


I was advised that the 60 can be left alone for now as the numbers don't seem that off (plus there's only one small fish in there anyway); with the 10, I did a 50% (approx.) change yesterday (with the gravel vac) and the water quality itself looks slightly better; I haven't re-tested it yet...



> you can clearly see the 10 is still cycling as there is ammonia and nitrite reading!


Yes, fair enough -- but there is a flip side to that coin: First of all, originally when you were asking for readings to be posted, it was in regard to the 60 gallon and whether it was ready for the Black Moor to be introduced, and that tank's numbers aren't alarming, as I said. Secondly, the ammonia in the 10 gallon _could_ possibly be due to not only cycle issues, but the fact that I'm overstocked in that setup with three goldfish. 



> heres what you need to do......test the water and when it gets to .25 ammonia do a water change, keep doing till there is no ammonia, then keep testing the nitrite and when it gets to .25 do a water change. keep repeating untill the readings go 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 20 nitrate. and keep it there. and dont for get vaccum the gravel!!!!


As things have been beyond exhaustive here trying to get the 60 gallon cleaned out, sterilized and up and running, as you can imagine, I haven't had a great deal of free time to continuously re-test both tanks' water, but I am routinely gravel vacuuming the 10 gallon.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

i can imagine!!! youve done a hell of a lot but i hope youve learnt a lot too. glad to know your vaccuming the gravel all the time, it really will save you a lot of grief in the future!

as to the little tank being over stocked and causing ammonia...well yeah thats a given with goldfish!!! but its not cycled as there is still nitrite readings.

id personaly put a couple little fish in the 60 to ease the load on the small tank.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> i can imagine!!! youve done a hell of a lot but i hope youve learnt a lot too. glad to know your vaccuming the gravel all the time, it really will save you a lot of grief in the future!


Yes, I have definitely learned a lot. 



> as to the little tank being over stocked and causing ammonia...well yeah thats a given with goldfish!!! but its not cycled as there is still nitrite readings.


I see...I guess the week of Stability merely attempted to kick-start the cycle process, but it didn't quite complete...

I don't think I am going to use this product in the future (not that it's bad or detrimental in any way) if I ever set a tank up again down the line or in a new home, as it seems the best way to go is just to let a tank be on its own, introducing "starter fish" in the beginning and watching parameters; all the Stability seemed to do is make my tank cloudy...



> id personaly put a couple little fish in the 60 to ease the load on the small tank.


Indeed -- I have been so advised on another forum; I am taking this into consideration. Thanks.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

yeah all these products people keep mentioning i just dont get them! theres no way a bottle of liquid is going to cycle a tank for you in 2 weeks. it takes time for the bacteria to grow and i jsut dont get how bacteria can stay alive in a bottle anywho. your plant for next time is in my opinion the best way.

all this tank of these gold fish and i dont even know what they look like! pictures please!!!


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

Glad to hear that you are keeping up with your Water changes. That bottled bacteria is just supposed to kickstart your cycle, I've heard it does work. Even when you seed a tank with BB from another tank, the cycle still takes weeks to get up to speed. I wouldn't put anymore fish in the 60, it would only put more of a bioload on the tank already. Keep in mind that the 10 will require more water changes because less water volume means more concentration of the toxic ammonia and nitrites in the water, which is why your 10G will be worse off than your 60g until they both are cycled. If You know Anybody else that has a healthy fish tank, ask if you can borrow some media and substrate(rocks/sand) and use that in your aquariums to help speed your cycle up even more. Hope everything goes well.

At the moment I am cycling a 10g planted myself, and it's been a week and a half since I put a filter on it from another tank, and I'm still getting about 2ppm of ammonia when my betta and snails were in it. I got tired of doing the water changes and moved them all to an established 20g. Fishless cycling is always the best route if it's possible(which I'm assuming is not because you don't have anywhere else to put your fish at the moment) It's less stressful for the fish, and less water changes fr you


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

zero said:


> yeah all these products people keep mentioning i just dont get them! theres no way a bottle of liquid is going to cycle a tank for you in 2 weeks. it takes time for the bacteria to grow and i jsut dont get how bacteria can stay alive in a bottle anywho. your plant for next time is in my opinion the best way.


Seachem even claims, if I am not mistaken, that the Stability product doesn't even take two weeks -- the dosing, in general, is supposed to be for a week. Perhaps they have hinted at the fact that with their product, _cycling_ will only go on for two weeks; I'm not positive on that one. As for the "bottle of bacteria," I thought the same as you -- but if you go to Seachem's site, they explain what kind of bacteria are in the bottles of Stability and why they can survive without being "active" and how they're essentially different from live, active bacteria of other kinds. It's fairly interesting. 

Here's the link to the info:

Seachem. Stability



> all this tank of these gold fish and i dont even know what they look like! pictures please!!!


LOL; I am terrible with photos -- when my wife gets home, I will have her snap some images and I will post them up.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> Glad to hear that you are keeping up with your Water changes.


Thanks, Manafel. It's a bit exhausting on the 10, because they need to be done so frequently, but with the new Top Fin syphon we bought, which includes a "pump valve" that makes it SO much easier to get water flowing, it hasn't been that bad. 



> That bottled bacteria is just supposed to kickstart your cycle, I've heard it does work. Even when you seed a tank with BB from another tank, the cycle still takes weeks to get up to speed.


So, are you saying it's possible that even though I used the Stability for Seachem's recommended week, the 10 gallon is undoubtedly cycling and this is normal? The cycle on both tanks, my 10 and 60, will take longer than the week once the Stability has ended?



> I wouldn't put anymore fish in the 60, it would only put more of a bioload on the tank already.


But there's only one small Black Moor goldfish in there now; you don't agree that I should transfer two of the smaller ones from the 10 gallon into the 60 just to get the bio strain off the small tank?

I am DEFINITELY not buying any new fish for the 60 until the water stabilizes and we decorate the tank; that's for sure. 



> Keep in mind that the 10 will require more water changes because less water volume means more concentration of the toxic ammonia and nitrites in the water, which is why your 10G will be worse off than your 60g until they both are cycled. If You know Anybody else that has a healthy fish tank, ask if you can borrow some media and substrate(rocks/sand) and use that in your aquariums to help speed your cycle up even more. Hope everything goes well.


Yes, I'm aware of the volume issue with the 10. Indeed, I wish I knew someone else locally that had an established fish tank to borrow some media to seed, but unfortunately I don't. 



> At the moment I am cycling a 10g planted myself, and it's been a week and a half since I put a filter on it from another tank, and I'm still getting about 2ppm of ammonia when my betta and snails were in it. I got tired of doing the water changes and moved them all to an established 20g. Fishless cycling is always the best route if it's possible(which I'm assuming is not because you don't have anywhere else to put your fish at the moment) It's less stressful for the fish, and less water changes fr you


Indeed, I would have done a fishless cycle -- but we had that emergency with our Black Moor which survived the bacterial infection breakout in the 60 gallon, so we needed to transfer her to a holding tank with clean water so she could be isolated from the infection...once we did that, she was in a 2-gallon "goldfish starter kit" just as an emergency transfer, so we had to get the 60 sterile and back up and running so she could have room to swim again. That's why this had to be a kind of fish-in cycle...


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

> But there's only one small Black Moor goldfish in there now; you don't agree that I should transfer two of the smaller ones from the 10 gallon into the 60 just to get the bio strain off the small tank?


That is really a decision for you to make. but whichever tank the fish are going to go in, you are still going to have to do water changes. When you put more fish in that 60, you will have to do more water changes in that tank. If you would prefer, you could probably put all of those fish in the 60 and just do water changes on the 60, and not worry about the 10. I personally think it's easier to do WCs on a 10 than a 60, but at this point, you are kind of in between a rock and a hard place.
I personally would put all of the fish in the 60, and put all of your filters on the same tank(if possible) and just do WCs on the 60. That way you are not only cycling your 60 and it's filters, but also the filters that go on your other tanks, so you have established media for next time you want to set up your 10.



> So, are you saying it's possible that even though I used the Stability for Seachem's recommended week, the 10 gallon is undoubtedly cycling and this is normal? The cycle on both tanks, my 10 and 60, will take longer than the week once the Stability has ended?


Yes. All that it does is to seed your tank. I have never heard of a cycle completing within just a week.



> Thanks, Manafel. It's a bit exhausting on the 10, because they need to be done so frequently, but with the new Top Fin syphon we bought, which includes a "pump valve" that makes it SO much easier to get water flowing, it hasn't been that bad.


Siphons and pythons will always make your life easier, I know it has made mine easier


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Hey there clinica, welcome to the wonderful world of troubleshooting

When I set up my tank I tried some of that bottled bacteria. I forget the brand but it came in a yellow bottle. It didn't work. It seems like you can't really "work" the system, it took my tank the better part of a month to cycle, I can't remember exactly how long but it seemed like forever, then one day *poof* ammonia and nitrite gone. 

One idea, if you're cool with someone at the lfs, (assuming it's a real fish store and not petco/petsmart etc) next time you're in there buying food or whatever, ask them for some gravel etc from an establised tank. The place I went to was happy to do it and didn't charge me for it.

After you get it all cycled, then you can start learning how to clean your filters without killing off your bacteria, which is step 2 in the "art" of tank keeping


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Manafel said:


> That is really a decision for you to make. but whichever tank the fish are going to go in, you are still going to have to do water changes. When you put more fish in that 60, you will have to do more water changes in that tank. If you would prefer, you could probably put all of those fish in the 60 and just do water changes on the 60, and not worry about the 10. I personally think it's easier to do WCs on a 10 than a 60, but at this point, you are kind of in between a rock and a hard place.
> I personally would put all of the fish in the 60, and put all of your filters on the same tank(if possible) and just do WCs on the 60. That way you are not only cycling your 60 and it's filters, but also the filters that go on your other tanks, so you have established media for next time you want to set up your 10.


I see what you're saying, but we have the issue of the aggressiveness with the Red Cap Oranda that's in the 10 gallon now, and I don't want to get into another situation where his aggressive bullying injures the docile Black Moor that has just begun to feel more comfortable after all her changes, leading to possibly another death...we simply have to isolate this Oranda for now until his growth spurt demands a move. 



> Yes. All that it does is to seed your tank. I have never heard of a cycle completing within just a week.


Gotcha; thank you.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Nereus7 said:


> Hey there clinica, welcome to the wonderful world of troubleshooting
> 
> When I set up my tank I tried some of that bottled bacteria. I forget the brand but it came in a yellow bottle. It didn't work. It seems like you can't really "work" the system, it took my tank the better part of a month to cycle, I can't remember exactly how long but it seemed like forever, then one day *poof* ammonia and nitrite gone.


Hey Nereus,

The yellow bottle you're speaking of must have been one of Tetra's products -- for the most part, I don't find any of their stuff to be good anymore. I can remember a time, years ago when I kept tropicals as a kid, when Tetra was like the Cadillac of aquarium supplies and connections -- now, they've almost become like what Bose is to home and car audio... 



> One idea, if you're cool with someone at the lfs, (assuming it's a real fish store and not petco/petsmart etc) next time you're in there buying food or whatever, ask them for some gravel etc from an establised tank. The place I went to was happy to do it and didn't charge me for it.


Unfortunately, I have NO privately-owned, hobbyist-driven aquarium shops near me -- they're all Petsmarts and Petcos. 



> After you get it all cycled, then you can start learning how to clean your filters without killing off your bacteria, which is step 2 in the "art" of tank keeping


Indeed, I'm aware of the media cleaning methods without killing off the bacteria -- i.e. swooshing cartridges and sponges around in removed tank water -- but _applying_ that awareness all the time was...well...another matter...


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