# need c02 injection advice



## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi,

I got my CO2 injection setup going...Ｉam not being very aggressive with it because my drop checkers have not arrived yet. I do have a pH test kit that I can use to monitor things, and also have some time to observe the fish to make sure they aren't acting weird.

Current setup:

20 lb c02 tank with GLA ideal regulator and dual manifold w/ dual bubble counters (thanks jrman83!)

The first output is going to a GLA atomic diffuser that is inline with my Eheim 2217 filter output on my 30 gallon oceanic cube tank.
The second output is going to a GLA attomic diffuser that is inline with my Eheim 2217 filter output on my 93 gallon frameless cube tank. 

Currently I'm just doing a very low rate of 1 bubble/sec on each tank. Both tanks are only lightly planted at the moment. The system is set to run when my lights run (8am - 8pm). 

A few questions:

The instructions on the GLA inline diffusers said the minimum working pressure is 30 PSI. I set my working pressure on my CO2 tank to 36 PSI. Do you think that is adequate, given that it's a dual manifold? Also, I have no idea whether the diffusers are working yet, or how to even tell, other than indirectly (seeing if pH drops). 

Should I ditch or modify my sponge filters in these tanks (e.g. switch them to be on a powerhead?). I just have 1 on each tank. Or maybe I can ditch the airstones in the sponge filters to reduce surface agitation? Even if I do get more offgassing, having the surface agitation from the sponge filters should reduce the likelihood of gassing my fish, correct?

Any idea what bubble rates would be safe for my setup? I've raised the water level in the tanks to make the spraybars spray below the surface of the water.

What target pH should I be shooting for, 6.8 or something?

Any recommendations on how to proceed? 

Thanks,
-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Basic math says you should be able to inject 3x as much to the 93 as the 30,so I would guess on upping the bubbles to the 93.
Knowing what your "natural " pH is will be helpful.Mine is 7.4 aprox and I take my 180 down to 6.1 with my pH controller.That still leaves my drop checker green.And as far as bubbles per second for me,totally uncountable with 4 bubble counters going to seperate reactors in my sump.I'll add that my pH probe for the pH controller is in the last section of my sump and my reactors outflow right under my return pump intake so I drop my pH to 6.1 after all the "gas exchanges" even imaginable(and no cover on my sump).
Not sure if anyone mentioned but JC told me to weigh my tank (with regulator when full) so it is easier to be aware of when the dump could happen.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Basic math says you should be able to inject 3x as much to the 93 as the 30,so I would guess on upping the bubbles to the 93.
> Knowing what your "natural " pH is will be helpful.Mine is 7.4 aprox and I take my 180 down to 6.1 with my pH controller.That still leaves my drop checker green.And as far as bubbles per second for me,totally uncountable with 4 bubble counters going to seperate reactors in my sump.I'll add that my pH probe for the pH controller is in the last section of my sump and my reactors outflow right under my return pump intake so I drop my pH to 6.1 after all the "gas exchanges" even imaginable(and no cover on my sump).
> Not sure if anyone mentioned but JC told me to weigh my tank (with regulator when full) so it is easier to be aware of when the dump could happen.


My natural tap pH is about 7.2-7.4

I will raise the count on the 93. Do you know how long it takes for co2 to reach equilibrium? Hours, days?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

An hour or so.My controller is on timer like most do for their solenoid,so every morning before lights it says 7.4,after turning on(an hour or more before lights for me) it gets to target of 6.1 within 30-45 minutes.It goes on and off all day for me,but what I never really asked about is at the end of day it seems to stay on longer and even allow for micro bubbles in my main tank.I think by the end of the day that the plants are "drawing" co2 at maximum and they use more then in the beginning of the day?
Remember I'm refferring to BIG TANK WITH SUMP AND OVERFLOWS,a "regular " tank may be much quicker and easier(take less{time and co2}).


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

So remember i don't have a drop checker yet, just measuring pH of the tank..

pH hasn't budged at all over the last few hours. 

I am at 3 bubbles/sec on the 93 gallon and 1 bubble/sec on the 30 gallon. don't see any sign of fish distress. Still not sure if i can even visually tell whether the inline atomic diffuser is even working properly....

Shouldn't I be seeing *some* pH change in the water, even with no drop checker (which would tell me pH due to CO2 alone)?

I'll guess try turning off my sponge filters for an hour or two and see if that makes a difference.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Update:

I replaced my crappy check valves with medical-grade check valves from aquariumplants.com. They seem a lot better quality.

I also increased the bubble rate from 1 and 3 bubbles/sec to 2 and 6 bubbles/sec respectively.

I'm now seeing some pH impact. After about 1 hour, the 93 gallon has a pH of about 6.4 and the 30 gallon has a pH of about 6.6. I'll retest in another hour to see if there's any additional drop.

Without having drop checkers yet to directly measure CO2 concentrations, do you think I should just leave this as-is? Or should I target 6.2 for both tanks, as long as the fish don't complain?

Also I'm now seeing a visible mist from the Eheim spraybar on the 93 gallon...so it's definitely working. That and the pH impact drop indicate the diffusers are working on both tanks now.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Good deal!
Keep an eye on the pH.Like I said I have a controller so my unit turns on and off all day.Your injection will be consistent all day so maybe it shouldn't hit your "target" so quickly.
I'm sure when Ben or JC get on they will have more relavent info(I think they both frown on the controller?),but I'm just using equipment I got in a package deal(for free!).
I am glad to hear that you are seeing something as I questioned the diffusers you are using.My reactors were all pretty cheap and it is easy to see the co2 in them so I know it has to be saturating the water(or they would be full of gas and no water).


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Just curious -- what reactors are you using?

Also, do you think I should increase the lighting on my tanks?

the 30 gal cube is using the stock fluorescent bulb it came with and an aqueon modular fixture with 3 modules (2 daylight, one planted).

the 93 gal cube is using two finnex 30" LED fixtures (one ray2, one planted).

Thanks,
-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Good deal!
> Keep an eye on the pH.Like I said I have a controller so my unit turns on and off all day.Your injection will be consistent all day so maybe it shouldn't hit your "target" so quickly.
> I'm sure when Ben or JC get on they will have more relavent info(I think they both frown on the controller?),but I'm just using equipment I got in a package deal(for free!).
> I am glad to hear that you are seeing something as I questioned the diffusers you are using.My reactors were all pretty cheap and it is easy to see the co2 in them so I know it has to be saturating the water(or they would be full of gas and no water).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm running 4 reactors in my sump with seperate co2 supply to each(hence the 4 bubble counters).
2 sera 500's (they were the first,smallest and most expensive) and 2 Insta which are dirt cheap and just as good as the sera IMO.
I have 2 powerheads that feed(in order) the sera then to the ista,so they are "in series" with seperate co2 supply to each.
this is the sera;sera GmbH - Products - sera flore CO2 active reactor 500 / 1000
This is the ista;Ista Max Mix CO2 Reactor Large
I would imagine that most just plumb them in return from canisters?I'm really not a canister guy nor have any interest in becoming one(have 3 use none).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Glad to see that you are seeing the differences in ph that you should see. I think you are probably good until you get your drop checkers...just to see where you are at based on what they will tell you. Did you order 4dkh solution with them? Sounds like you got it set to a pretty decent setting and everything is working well for you.

Are you dosing any ferts at all? Adding CO2 can require some form, depending on the light level. Going with the assumption that your tanks were previously CO2 limited, the limiting factors can now change to other things, like the need for ferts. If the nutrients are not there for the plants when they need them they will be affected.

A controller is not a bad thing per se, just not required. I had two of them at one point and when I figured how to manage my tanks without them, I sold them. Never even got the second one out of the package. Some people swear by them, I just am on the side of not necessary and given their cost, $100+, it can just add to an already decent bill to get going with CO2. I got mine as I was just getting going with CO2 enrichment. It also has maintenance involved and recurring cost (probe cleaners, calibration liquids, new probes, etc). I would like to get one of the ph checkers, however. Just like a controller, but only has the ph probe and no plug-in for your solenoid and no min/max settings to worry about. I could use on every one of my tanks.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I was just going to mix my own 4 dkH solution, I can mix my own from baking soda and distilled water, correct? I do have the PPS Pro fert kit from GLA, I will start dosing with it again...I had stopped for a few months out of laziness).

Today the pH has stabilized around 6.4-6.5 on both tanks. Interestingly, the 30 gallon seemed to rise in pH overnight whereas the 93 gallon did not. I think that's due to this old HOB filter I left running on there, as I'm still waiting for the Eheim 2217 filter on there to establish further.

Do you think I"m going to need another Finnex Ray2 fixture on the 93 gallon cube tank? It currently has a 30" Ray2 and a 30" Fugeray Planted fixture. Also, what about the 30 gallon cube? It has a stock fluorescent fixture that came with the tank and a fully populated Aqueon modular 20" LED fixture.

Thanks,
-Zeke



jrman83 said:


> Glad to see that you are seeing the differences in ph that you should see. I think you are probably good until you get your drop checkers...just to see where you are at based on what they will tell you. Did you order 4dkh solution with them? Sounds like you got it set to a pretty decent setting and everything is working well for you.
> 
> Are you dosing any ferts at all? Adding CO2 can require some form, depending on the light level. Going with the assumption that your tanks were previously CO2 limited, the limiting factors can now change to other things, like the need for ferts. If the nutrients are not there for the plants when they need them they will be affected.
> 
> A controller is not a bad thing per se, just not required. I had two of them at one point and when I figured how to manage my tanks without them, I sold them. Never even got the second one out of the package. Some people swear by them, I just am on the side of not necessary and given their cost, $100+, it can just add to an already decent bill to get going with CO2. I got mine as I was just getting going with CO2 enrichment. It also has maintenance involved and recurring cost (probe cleaners, calibration liquids, new probes, etc). I would like to get one of the ph checkers, however. Just like a controller, but only has the ph probe and no plug-in for your solenoid and no min/max settings to worry about. I could use on every one of my tanks.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You can make your own as long as you test it with a kh test first to ensure it is 4dkh. Your ph should rise shortly after you stop injecting. I would think HOBs would cause this to occur more quickly than your typical canister. I assume by "stabilize" you mean where it ends up after the CO2 gasses out or up until your CO2 kicked on again the next day? Either way, normal action should be a drop from injecting and then a return, or near return, to your native ph a few hours (may vary) after you stop injecting. If this is not occurring, it is possible that your surface movement is not enough. You need adequate surface movement to assure you are getting ample amounts of oxygen in the water as well. If you want to use a bubble wand, I would set it up on a timer to kick on once your CO2 is off...counterproductive to run at the same time. 

For lighting, what is the distance to your substrate from your lights?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> You can make your own as long as you test it with a kh test first to ensure it is 4dkh. Your ph should rise shortly after you stop injecting. I would think HOBs would cause this to occur more quickly than your typical canister. I assume by "stabilize" you mean where it ends up after the CO2 gasses out or up until your CO2 kicked on again the next day? Either way, normal action should be a drop from injecting and then a return, or near return, to your native ph a few hours (may vary) after you stop injecting. If this is not occurring, it is possible that your surface movement is not enough. You need adequate surface movement to assure you are getting ample amounts of oxygen in the water as well. If you want to use a bubble wand, I would set it up on a timer to kick on once your CO2 is off...counterproductive to run at the same time.
> 
> For lighting, what is the distance to your substrate from your lights?


On the 93 gallon cube (30Wx30Dx24H tank), it is 23" from the top of the substrate to the lights.

On the 30 gallon cube (20Wx20Dx18H tank) , it is 19" from the top of the substrate to the lights. 

I'll try raising my spraybars slightly to increase the surface movement on the 93 gallon. When I do get rid of the HOB filter on the 30, I will raise the spraybars slightly as well.

-Zeke


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So whether or not you "need" more light is up to you. You obviously are not as "limited" as you were previously. So if you want high light, then you may need another Ray2 at least on your 93g. May want that anyway to give better even-ness to the lighting front to back. Even then, may only get you to a high medium area which is usually enough to give people what they want. It just depends on your goals. Keeping algae under control now becomes your major goal once you get to that level.

For the 30g, I would consider a planted +, possibly 2. Just depends on how even the lighting is.

You may not need to raise your spray bars. You don't want turbulence. If you find something to sit on top of your water and watch how it gets moved around, this can tell you how much surface movement you have.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I decided not to mess with the spraybars and just added a sponge filter to each tank. I'm actually not noticing a huge impact on pH (e.g. I don't see it going back up)...at least during the day. Will see how it looks tonight/tomorrow AM.

I'll order another Ray2 for the 93g. 

I'm pretty much out of space on the 30g cube unless I remove an existing fixture...maybe ditch the stock fluorescent and replace with a better fixture. What about a ray2 on there in addition to the aqueon modular LED (which has 2 daylights and one colormax)...or simply a second aqueon modular LED with 2 daylight and 1 colormax?)

I don't think algae will be too much of an issue on the 93 gallon, I have 32 albino bristlenose plecos growing out there  There are about 15 albino bristlenose plecos growing out in the 30 gallon.

-Zeke



jrman83 said:


> So whether or not you "need" more light is up to you. You obviously are not as "limited" as you were previously. So if you want high light, then you may need another Ray2 at least on your 93g. May want that anyway to give better even-ness to the lighting front to back. Even then, may only get you to a high medium area which is usually enough to give people what they want. It just depends on your goals. Keeping algae under control now becomes your major goal once you get to that level.
> 
> For the 30g, I would consider a planted +, possibly 2. Just depends on how even the lighting is.
> 
> You may not need to raise your spray bars. You don't want turbulence. If you find something to sit on top of your water and watch how it gets moved around, this can tell you how much surface movement you have.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What is your tank kh?

Sorry, didn't see all that you had for your 30g. I would probably remove the stock fixture.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> What is your tank kh?
> 
> Sorry, didn't see all that you had for your 30g. I would probably remove the stock fixture.


Getting a dkH of 2 (35.8ppm) on both tanks. Also tested my tap water, which also has a dkH of 2.

-Zeke


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

zwanged said:


> Getting a dkH of 2 (35.8ppm) on both tanks.
> 
> -Zeke


Hmmm...wondering if that may be your problem. If your ph goes down after your dosing period and it doesn't come back up much, does it continue to go down when your next "on" period starts the following day? If it continues to drive it down, then a low kh may be the problem.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Odd that it was an issue on one tank but not the other. My tap water also has a dkH of 2. I'll def keep an eye on it to see if adding the sponge filters to the tanks improves the pH rebound.

-Zeke



jrman83 said:


> Hmmm...wondering if that may be your problem. If your ph goes down after your dosing period and it doesn't come back up much, does it continue to go down when your next "on" period starts the following day? If it continues to drive it down, then a low kh may be the problem.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, just keep an eye on it. Test for a few days and see what your tanks are doing and learn what they normally do so you know when something is out of the ordinary.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Now you're getting good advice(from Ben).I will add that raising your kH without raising your pH is pretty diffacult,BUT since you now can effect your pH with the co2 you may be able to adjust a little easier.I'll also add that my tap is aprox.7.6 but even with regular wc(50% every week) my pH settles back at 7.3 with more than enough surface movement on my 180.My kH is 3 and my gH is 0(talking tap water).Wait till you get your DC before you explore like crazy(and possibly dangerously), but you will see you can add alot of co2 .My 20lb tank last almost exactly 2 months on my 180.And my plants are OUT OF CONTROL!


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hmm, strange! Overnight, the pH on the 93 gallon tank went from pH 6.4 => 6.8 only, and the pH of the 30 gallon tank went from 6.6 => 7.2. My tap water is 7.4ish.

Both tanks have sponge filters running non-stop so I would've expected the tanks to offgas fully overnight. The CO2 injection brings the 93 gallon to 6.4 during the day and the 30 gallon to 6.6 during the day. 

Now I think the driftwood in the 93 is might just be responsible for this lowering of the baseline pH. It is still relatively new...

-Zeke



jrman83 said:


> Yes, just keep an eye on it. Test for a few days and see what your tanks are doing and learn what they normally do so you know when something is out of the ordinary.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yeah, possibly. Your ph may not ever reach it back to the starting ph, but it does look like it is rebounding properly.


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