# Losing battle with Itch



## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I have a 14 gallon tank with 1 guppy and 2 platys. I have been fighting itch for a week and LOSING. It may already be too late, the guppy has stopped eating and is COVERED with white nodules. I have been reading the internet and following directions, but it is NOT WORKING. After a week, the fish have more white spots than ever. One has already died. Here is what I have done:

1)Elevated the tank temp as high as my heater will allow (78deg)
2)Removed the carbon from my filter
3)Added 3 1/2 tsp Coppersafe (chelated copper)
4)Added 8 tbsp aquarium salt
5)30% water change every two days

I have followed this regimen for a week and it is not working at all. The itch spots have just multiplied, and the fish get sicker. What am I doing wrong? I am using a dechlorinator for my water changes, is it possible that this chemical is interfering with the copper?? HELP!


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## J-Pond (Jun 8, 2009)

At this point it may be to late for them. The one thing I can see is the temp is too low. You should get it to 82degrees, even if you add a second heater.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Buy an adjustible heater.Its well worth the price.Get the temp up to about 86 slowly.The ich should fall off and will not be able to reproduce at such high temps.I wouldnt count them out just yet.

A good rule of thumb,if the treatment isnt working,then give it a rest.Add fresh water,no medication and raise the temp.They could be stressing with the coppersafe.If they dont make it,then at least when they do go,itll be a little relief from all the chems.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

How long have you had the fish for?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

i heard a rumor on here that there is a tough ich going around, temp resistant. Get your temp up i hope this isnt what you have.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Forget the med you're using. If you still need to treat with meds over temps, get some quick cure. The best stuff I've ever used.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I am using Tetra AquaSafe Plus to dechlorinate my water. Is this chemical somehow reacting with the chelated copper in Coppersafe? Everything I have read on the internet says that copper should be effective, but for some reason it is NOT AT ALL. My last guppy died, and my platys are getting more and more spots. This is so frustrating, why is the copper not working??? I will try to just let my water sit out to dechlorinate it, but I don't know how I am going to add it to my tank, since my house is about 65deg and I am worried the temperature shock will kill my fish. I have managed to get a heater with a dial instead of a thermostat, so I will try to crank up the temperature. I guess I should go back to the pet store next weekend to get new medicine. The fish will probably be dead by then.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Are you not very close to a fish store or Walmart maybe?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

If you are 110% sure they won't survive, and feel they are suffering you can always put them down and boil/ bleach the tank and decor. I had to put down a 1 eyed evil chinese algae eater a few months ago. Took advice and used tuperware in the freezer. There are other ways of course.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

Holy moly, here is what I found on another posting:


> After buying my first bottle of coppersafe because another hobbyist raved about it online, saying some people keep it in their tank all the time to prevent disease, I found the product rather confusing.
> 
> Copper is a heavy metal and every water conditioner on the market removes heavy metals, so i called the company to ask about that.
> They replied not to use any of those products because they would break down the copper into toxic by-products that would kill all the fish!
> ...


Darn it, why is that warning not on the bottle??


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Makes sense now that I think about it. Again, I'd stop using it and do a 50% water change at least.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

Can anyone recommend an ick medicine that is compatible with dechlorinator? The second active ingredient in AquaSafe is "chelating compounds". I am no chemist but I wonder if this stuff is neutralizing the copper, since chelation treatment is what they give you if you have heavy metal poisoning. I am scared of Malachite Green, I don't wan't any carcinogens in my house. How about Formalin?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

get that temp up and do your water change. let us know if it helps or if there is any changes.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

quick cure - best med out there.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Like I said earlier,give the meds a rest.Raise the temp.Adding more will just do more harm now.Meds are rough on fish.If after a week of warm,clean fresh water they still have Ich,quick cure is the best.Its mild on fishes and kills the ich pretty fast.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Stupid questions: when you did your water changes, did you add a proportionate amount of salt and medication to re-up your levels? You have to keep those levels consistent in order for the medication and salt to be effective. 

Don't take the word of a guy who knew a guy who called, call the companies yourself and ask, is my water treatment going to cause a toxic reaction with my medication? Because "removes heavy metals" would NOT cause them to become toxic, it would bind them (or some fraction of them) into non-toxic substances. It sounds like something was lost in the game of telephone that is going on here. 

Starting and then stopping treatment with ich medicine is a good way to produce a resistant strain of ich, btw. I would second the recommendation of an additional heater to up your temp, since we don't know if you have the heat resistant strain until you actually try it. The heat resistant strain was found in Florida so far, not all ich is heat resistant. Guppies on the other hand are very very salt tolerant, so keep your salt level up there. 

I'm sorry that you're having a tough time, and that you're getting a lot of conflicting information.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

hows your fish today? Did you get your water temp up?


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I did a 50% water change, which means 7 gallons for my tank. I added the AquaSafe to remove the chlorine, and added three tablespoons of salt. I added an extra heater, and it is stable at 88deg. Even at the high temperature, the behavior of the surviving fish is improved. With all the copper in the tank, they were resting at the bottom most of the time. Now they swim around in a more healthy manner. They still have a lot of spots. I will try to get a different ich medicine this weekend.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

From wikipedia, here is a description of chelation:


> Chelants, according to ASTM-A-380, are "chemicals that form soluble, complex molecules with certain metal ions, inactivating the ions so that they cannot normally react with other elements or ions to produce precipitates or scale."


So chelated copper already has its own chelants, so it is not clear what would happen if I add the chelating agents in AquaSafe. It is possible, I suppose, that the AquaSafe chelants would replace the Coppersafe chelants, and render the copper less effective.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

More on info from wikipedia:


> Chelation therapy is the use of chelating agents to detoxify poisonous metal agents such as mercury, arsenic, and lead by converting them to a chemically inert form that can be excreted without further interaction with the body


So the chelating agents allow an organism to ingest and excrete a heavy metal without being poisoned...?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

joshxdr said:


> I did a 50% water change, which means 7 gallons for my tank. I added the AquaSafe to remove the chlorine, and added three tablespoons of salt. I added an extra heater, and it is stable at 88deg. Even at the high temperature, the behavior of the surviving fish is improved. With all the copper in the tank, they were resting at the bottom most of the time. Now they swim around in a more healthy manner. They still have a lot of spots. I will try to get a different ich medicine this weekend.


Watch treating with meds and using high temp together. Both deplete oxygen from the water. I'd recommend dropping your water down some so the return water crashes into your tank to oxygenate the water some. You can also add a powerhead or a bubbler may even help.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I treated the fish with copper from Thursday last week to Tuesday. During that time the number of spots increased greatly and two fish died. I believe the life cycle of ich at 78 degrees is three to four days, so six days should be enough to say that the copper just isn't working. They say the definition of insanity is repeating your actions and expecting a different result.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't think anyone is recommending the same med again.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I would think the quantity of copper in most ich meds would be so much higher than traces in normal water that the water conditioner is supposed to treat that it wouldn't really make much difference unless you added large quantities of it.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

The thing to remember is that once the ich organism is under the fish's skin it is invulnerable to treatment, the water treatments are meant to kill the free swimming stage. Nothing you treat the fish with is going to kill the "spots" - only the higher temperature, which speeds up the life cycle of the ich, is going to make the spots disappear any faster, and if the organism has infected the fish but not encysted yet it would make sense for the first few days for the fish to experience an increase in dots since the new organisms are still encysting. The tank was full of thousands of free swimming ich organisms you couldn't see trying to infect your fish up until the time treatment started. Even now there may be some dormant forms in your tank that have the potential to hatch out into the free swimming type, which is why your heat and salt need to continue. Each time a dot drops off a fish, it is going to try to form one of these dormant spawners (not the correct term) and the heat and salt won't kill them, the heat and salt will only kill the swimmers after they hatch out from the dormant spawner (at least that's my understanding of how it works) dot - spawner - swimmer - dot and the only stage that's really killable is the swimmer. It is possible (I am not clear on this) that the heat and salt will kill the dot in between coming out of the skin and going dormant, but i am not sure. Even once all the dots are gone, you need to keep going to make sure that when every last spawner opens and spits out their swimmers, that the swimmers are greeted by heat and salt and killed before they can reach one of your fish, if you stop treatment too soon you could miss some and at some future time (maybe not even right away) the dormant guy opens up and boom, you have another ich infection. Even one can spit out thousands of swimmers. (I feel like I've told this story so many times before, forgive me if I'm repeating myself) 

Every time a spot drops off it leaves an open wound, so watch for secondary infections. Maybe think about adding some melafix or stresscoat to help them heal up.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

Two days after a 50% water change with no copper, the spots have cleared up on the remaining two fish. I guess the copper must have been working somewhat. Maybe the copper was preventing the fish from healing even though it was killing the swimming parasites. I still am using salt and 86 deg. Water change tomorrow, so far so good.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

Good luck...keep up treatment for a weekish after they show no signs


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I have found a more complete and accurate-sounding guide to copper treatment here. Based on this information Coppersafe is not the best copper medication to use. Cupramine is what was recommended.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I just generally keep away from copper meds altogether. Too many potential lingering effects and chance of other issues.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

3rd day, no spots yet. Water temp 86deg, 2tbsp salt per 4 gal. No copper or any other med other than salt.

The improvement after the 50% water change with no copper was dramatic. Spots disappeared, fish went from sleeping all day to swimming around. There is no way that sudden improvement was due to reduction in parasites, since the life cycle is a few days. I suspect that the copper was preventing existing lesions from healing. However, the good condition of the fish does seem to indicate the parasites were killed. In the future I would hesitate to use copper to treat parasites, it seems that the dosage window between killing the parasites and killing the fish is too narrow.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

joshxdr said:


> ....it seems that the dosage window between killing the parasites and killing the fish is too narrow.


Excellent way of putting it and better than I ever could. I would get a good ich med to have in your cabinet for the just in case things. I used to buy one type of different med every other time I'd go to the pets store so I'd have whatever I needed when things arose. I'd recommend Quick Cure if you don't already have something. It takes care of ich and numerous other parasitic issues.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

If the fish have no spots, that indicates that they have no parasites under their skin currently, and that's a good thing. Congratulations! At 86 and with salt, I don't think the swimmers can survive. I believe at the higher temp the life cycle is fast enough that the cysts in the tank (but not on your fish) either have been or will be hatching out and releasing their swimmers and those swimmers will be killed by the salt and heat. I'm always nervous about when you can return things to normal, that's always the scary part for me, when is too soon? If the fish are thriving and healing, the temptation for me would be to err on the side of caution and just keep things as they are for a good while. 

Perhaps the next thing to work on would be plans for a small quarantine tank, so that you can quarantine any new additions and make sure they're not going to bring in any new crisis.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

An extra 10 days sounds like agood number


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

From what I've read, the temp of 86 will only halt their reproduction. To kill with a high temp you need 89-90. Even then some survive that, but it has worked for me in the past.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

I have a problem. I was lazy and didn't turn off the heater while doing water changes. It cracked, so I had to buy another one. The old heater was an antique that let you crank up the temp as high as you wanted. The new heaters seem to have some kind of high temp cutoff that prevents the water temp from reaching high enough temperature for treating ich. I have a 50W AllGlass heater and a 50W Petco heater in there at the same time, and the water temp is only 82deg. The AllGlass power light is on only 10% of the time. The Petco light is on 90% of the time. Are these heaters defective? Do I need a different kind of heater? Will a single 100W do better than these two?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Does it not have a way to adjust the temp? It sounds like you have a fixed temperature one, you need one that is adjustable. 

How are the fish by the way?


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

Still no spots visible on the fish, they seem very active and healthy. Did a water change on Sunday, still with salt added but the temp is hovering at 82 deg. The biofilter is slowly recovering, the copper made the bacteria go dormant. Ammonia is down, but nitirites are still high.

I am not sure how to tell a "fixed temp" heater from an "adjustable temp" heater. The guy at Petco swore up and down this thing would heat a 15 gallon tank up to 90deg, but he was wrong. Any advice as to what kind of heater to buy?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

Make sure it has turn dial . Mine has one but it's in celsius. Damn american school system never taught us that. So ne way. Turn dials and sometimes you can find digital ones.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

"Damn american school system never taught us that"

Thank Ronald Ray-Gun, he zapped the metric conversion and school house rock.


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## joshxdr (Feb 16, 2011)

As of today still no spots, so it looks like the one week of copper treatment and two weeks of high temp / salt treatment has done the job. Considering the time I spent on extra trips to the pet store, extra water testing, extra water changes, etc. it was kind of ridiculous amount of effort to save two platies worth about $6.00. I can see how euthanasia would have made more sense for some people. Assuming you are like me, and feel that keeping the fish alive is the whole point, I would have the following advice for new aquarium owners:

1) Set up a quarantine tank if at all possible. Quarantine your new fish for a week and check for spots.

2) Do NOT use Aqueon filter with carbon integrated into the media. When you add medicine, you want to take the carbon out. When your treatment is done (or you want to try a different treatment) you want to put the carbon in. All along you want to keep your filter media in place since it contains your good bacteria. This is impossible with the Aqueon filter. I bought a new AquaClear filter with separate filter / carbon / ceramic elements, so you can be flexible to enable treatment of ich.

3) Buy a heater one rating higher than the pet store says you need. If they say you need a 50W, get a 100W. If you choose to use high temp treatment, you will need the extra power to maintain 88degrees, especially in the winter when indoor temps are around 65deg.

4) Keep aquarium salt handy. Salt has infinite shelf life, unlike a lot of other ich medicines. You can start the heat/salt treatment right away as soon as you see spots, and switch to another med later if this isn't working.

5) Steer clear of copper treatment if you have other options. Copper was very hard on my fish even at the dose recommended on the bottle. It killed off my biofilter, and was tough to get rid of once I decided to stop treatment. If you want to use copper to treat ich, buy Cupramine, not Coppersafe.


Hope that helps somebody avoid the hassle I went through.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Decent advice.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Even if it might have been overkill for those fish, it sounds like it taught you a lot. That sort of thing you can't buy.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Yeah seems like you had a great course of fish care there.Sorry you had to go through it,but like mentioned above you cant put a price on experience like that and in the future,you now know an easier way of taking care of such instances.


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