# I should be beaten with a stick



## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

I should probably start by saying that my ignorance and impatience resulted in the needless death of about a dozen fish, I'm sick about it, and I apologize. I have a 55 gal tank that was well established for about a year. I had two HOB filters, an AquaClear 70 and a Tetra Whisper 60. I tested periodically with an API test kit, and all levels were ok and didn't vary much, but the tank was always somewhat murky. Oh yeah the fish...I had about 10 full grown Mollies, all white except for 1 black, 1 dalmatian and a sailfin with beautiful blue coloring in it's fins, that was a product of breeding, a dozen or so full grown Guppies, a blue Gourami, a glow fish, 5 bottom feeder cats (none more than a couple of in. long, maybe the Cory variety), a nice Pleco that's 12-14 in., and quite a few baby Mollies and Guppies, most of which I bred outside the tank, and a few that managed to survive in the tank due to strategically placed cover - a jumble of artificial plants on top , all past the fry stage but still quite small. It became apparent that I didn't need to breed any more outside the tank - all told I only isolated 1 guppy and 1 black molly outside the tank. If I had to guess how many young'uns I have, I would say 40-50, if none have died while I type this note. 
Anyway, a few months ago I decided to add an under gravel filter with a strong Tetra Whisper 150 air pump to help clear the water (pumping up through the gravel). It seemed to work pretty well, and I continued to keep the condition of the water in good shape. However, it seemed I was replacing filter media and cleaning the filters far to often, usually weekly, and I thought there's gotta be a better way that doesn't involve so much friggin filter maintenance. So I started looking at canister filters and settled on this bad boy:
Amazon.com: Aquatop CF500UV 5-Stage Canister Filter with UV 9W, 525 gph: Pet Supplies
Well, I got me plenty of good filter media for the canister trays...biomax, charcoal, ammonia filter bags I had from the AquaClear filter, Purigen, sponges and the bags from the Tetra Whisper filter, which act as good filters empty, a couple of jars of this:
Amazon.com: Marineland PA0392 Diamond Blend Activated Carbon/Ammonia Neutralizing Crystals, 50-Ounce, 1417-Gram: Pet Supplies
all of which I made sure was enclosed in media filter bags if it wasn't already bagged, before I stocked the canister trays. Then came the real fun part...probably more fun than people should be allowed to have...and that's removing the undergravel filters, which was overdue, and I figured shouldn't be needed with that bad boy canister. If you've ever removed UG filters, you'll know what I mean, and if you haven't, you probably never want to. Talk about nasty **** (forgive my french)...globs and globs of substrate and who knows what the hell were unleashed. Brown, gloppy globs, a mixture of real old fish doo doo and food. I netted what I could before I proceeded with the vacuuming. The first go round, I vacuumed out about 50% of the water, which by no means cleaned it all out, but I thought 50% was more than enough for one water change. I fired up the filter, which worked as it should, that is the siphon was established, and with the power of the pump in the canister, it was pushing out a good stream into the tank. 
The next morning all the fish appeared to be gasping for air on the surface, which made me feel awful, I confirmed it was ammonia...big time high level...and frantically vacuumed out another 50%, thinking why the hell isn't this canister reducing the friggin ammonia? By then the tank was almost as clean as it could get, after I VACUUMED OUT WHAT REMAINED OF THE SUBSTRATE. Then I cleaned out the canister, GETTING RID OF WHAT LITTLE SUBSTRATE MAY HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE FILTER.
The next morning, all of the adult fish, with the exception of my prized monster Pleco, were floating on top of the tank. Needless to say, I was majorly bummed, so I went down to the local Petsmart and related my situation to a knowledgeable fish lady, told her I was flippin' out over the high ammonia levels, which is why I did the water changes and filter cleaning. She said that was some kinda classic syndrome, couldn't remember what she called it, but it wasn't flippin' out over high ammonia levels, it was essentially doing the opposite of what you should be doing to remediate the situation. Naturally, I felt like a sadistic creep, having killed all those fish. She suggested Prime, Ammo Lock, Stress Zyme to introduce bacteria, and I had some Stress Coat at home. I did another small water change to introduce the chemicals, and in a few days it looked like it was coming around...fish were actually off the surface and swimming around the tank, so I didn't do any more water changes or fool with the filter for a few days, at which time I checked the ammonia level, and it had spiked again, friggin dark green test tube. I'm at my wit's end...I'm probably over feeding them, but the filter is rockin' and I have plenty of air tubes in the tank. They're back on the surface, no doubt gasping for air, and I need some help. I know that conditioning a tank is a slow process, but what can I do in the meantime to salvage the remaining fish? Thanks much for your advice and input....Kirby


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## foster (Sep 2, 2012)

Water changes will reduce the ammonia concentration in the water temporarily. You will need to test often, and when ammonia levels start to rise, do another water change to bring it down. You will have to do this until the beneficial bacteria re-establish in the new filter. I assume you removed your old filters, and caused a mini cycle. Try using Prime water conditioner. It will neutralize the ammonia somewhat.


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

Kirby said:


> I should probably start by saying that my ignorance and impatience resulted in the needless death of about a dozen fish, I'm sick about it, and I apologize. I have a 55 gal tank that was well established for about a year. I had two HOB filters, an AquaClear 70 and a Tetra Whisper 60. I tested periodically with an API test kit, and all levels were ok and didn't vary much, but the tank was always somewhat murky. Oh yeah the fish...I had about 10 full grown Mollies, all white except for 1 black, 1 dalmatian and a sailfin with beautiful blue coloring in it's fins, that was a product of breeding, a dozen or so full grown Guppies, a blue Gourami, a glow fish, 5 bottom feeder cats (none more than a couple of in. long, maybe the Cory variety), a nice Pleco that's 12-14 in., and quite a few baby Mollies and Guppies, most of which I bred outside the tank, and a few that managed to survive in the tank due to strategically placed cover - a jumble of artificial plants on top , all past the fry stage but still quite small. It became apparent that I didn't need to breed any more outside the tank - all told I only isolated 1 guppy and 1 black molly outside the tank. If I had to guess how many young'uns I have, I would say 40-50, if none have died while I type this note.
> Anyway, a few months ago I decided to add an under gravel filter with a strong Tetra Whisper 150 air pump to help clear the water (pumping up through the gravel). It seemed to work pretty well, and I continued to keep the condition of the water in good shape. However, it seemed I was replacing filter media and cleaning the filters far to often, usually weekly, and I thought there's gotta be a better way that doesn't involve so much friggin filter maintenance. So I started looking at canister filters and settled on this bad boy:
> Amazon.com: Aquatop CF500UV 5-Stage Canister Filter with UV 9W, 525 gph: Pet Supplies
> Well, I got me plenty of good filter media for the canister trays...biomax, charcoal, ammonia filter bags I had from the AquaClear filter, Purigen, sponges and the bags from the Tetra Whisper filter, which act as good filters empty, a couple of jars of this:
> ...


:dont_tap_the_glass:
i witnesed this same exact issue when i first hooked up my canister filter first time took almost 1-1 1/2 qweeks to establish a proper ammount to biological filtration in the new filter to absorb the ammonia, fortunately i myself only lost a few 2-3 guppies over it , but i did test daily and treat with prime as needed to remove ammonia (although i am not recommending to do this , in an emergency detox situation do a big water change 50% is what i do then add appropriate dosage of prime , it says its safe to use occasionally up to 5x the normal dosing safely.to r detox quickly) i tried ammo out also at this time and found i DO NOT LIKE IT as it just clearly dont work as good. at the time i changed out my filters i also added booster bacteria , i cannot recall which because there are man out there and most work , i prefer a liquid to a powder though myself. it was enough to help rebuild my bio filtration and saved most my fish , now im not saying it will 4 you but its boosting the bacteria levels that you removed probably changing the filter out.
Also a tip for canister media change , if your using multiple medias try and change them out on a 2 week schedule apart from one another , still do them regularly just not on the same day because that gives beneficial bacteria more time to build back up. hope some of that helps you friend , take care and good luck . Keep us posted:fish5:


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

...and that's removing the undergravel filters, which was overdue, and I figured shouldn't be needed with that bad boy canister.

Actually, it was better than the canister at that point, because where was most of your bacteria? 

If you've ever removed UG filters, you'll know what I mean, and if you haven't, you probably never want to. Talk about nasty **** (forgive my french)...globs and globs of substrate and who knows what the hell were unleashed. Brown, gloppy globs, a mixture of real old fish doo doo and food. I netted what I could before I proceeded with the vacuuming. The first go round, I vacuumed out about 50% of the water, which by no means cleaned it all out, but I thought 50% was more than enough for one water change. I fired up the filter, which worked as it should, that is the siphon was established, and with the power of the pump in the canister, it was pushing out a good stream into the tank. 

Why didn't you siphon first? Why didn't you clean the gravel with a siphon vacuum every so often? <-- Every so often meaning that you're literally taking stuff that would be convert, directly out of the entire cycle, thereby preventing that kind of toxic-pocket build-up. 

The next morning all the fish appeared to be gasping for air on the surface, which made me feel awful, I confirmed it was ammonia...big time high level...and frantically vacuumed out another 50%, thinking why the hell isn't this canister reducing the friggin ammonia? By then the tank was almost as clean as it could get, after I VACUUMED OUT WHAT REMAINED OF THE SUBSTRATE. Then I cleaned out the canister, GETTING RID OF WHAT LITTLE SUBSTRATE MAY HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE FILTER.

You dissolved a ton of poo in the water, then massacred what bacteria you had left to convert that poo. Though at least you understand now where you went wrong.

The next morning, all of the adult fish, with the exception of my prized monster Pleco, were floating on top of the tank. Needless to say, I was majorly bummed, so I went down to the local Petsmart and related my situation to a knowledgeable fish lady, told her I was flippin' out over the high ammonia levels, which is why I did the water changes and filter cleaning. She said that was some kinda classic syndrome, couldn't remember what she called it, but it wasn't flippin' out over high ammonia levels, it was essentially doing the opposite of what you should be doing to remediate the situation.

New tank syndrome. I wouldn't trust a LFS person, as much just googling the information (they are there to sell you crap you don't need). Though it was helpful in this case.

Naturally, I felt like a sadistic creep, having killed all those fish. She suggested Prime, Ammo Lock, Stress Zyme to introduce bacteria, and I had some Stress Coat at home. I did another small water change to introduce the chemicals, and in a few days it looked like it was coming around...fish were actually off the surface and swimming around the tank, so I didn't do any more water changes or fool with the filter for a few days, at which time I checked the ammonia level, and it had spiked again, friggin dark green test tube. I'm at my wit's end...I'm probably over feeding them, but the filter is rockin' and I have plenty of air tubes in the tank. They're back on the surface, no doubt gasping for air, and I need some help. I know that conditioning a tank is a slow process, but what can I do in the meantime to salvage the remaining fish? Thanks much for your advice and input....Kirby

Okay, I will tell you what I would do. 

Give your tank a chance to grow the colony, you have a big bioload and the excess is only going to kill your bacteria (it becomes toxic to the bacteria after a certain point).

Get a few buckets, fill it with water, condition it, make sure it is at a suitable temp and put the fish in that. Who cares about bacteria here when you are just giving your tank a little rest from increasing poo/food matters. Literally, when I needed the fish out, I would prepare the bucket in the morning and have the fish in by the afternoon, exchanging with another sitting bucket. 25% every day.

This is a bandaid and I wouldn't recommend it for more than 2 days (or have many fish in it), because I really don't want to misguide you.

Bacteria is fast growing, but not at first. They need some time to really get a strangle hold on the decomposing matters. It is possible for bacteria to double in mass every hour or so. So as you can imagine, this problem can clear up pretty quick.

I'd do one last 25% change after you remove the fish too. Just incase it is at still at toxic levels, though by your indications, I'd do 25-50%. Keep the lights off.

On the side, I'd really suggest looking into getting some low-light plants, they'll eat nitrates, thereby making your life easier. Do this when your quality is a little better though.


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

Once properly established again you will be very pleased with the canister filter I'm sure. Mine was much better . I like ionix's idea with the buckets may prove very helpful . Good luck.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Re-home the pleco!It sounds like it could barely turn around in tank without touching front and back glass!Besides being midly overstocked the pleco basically doulbes your fish count at that size.He is a major contibutor to all the poo you witnessed.Change water more often regardless.Just changing MORE water MORE often would have and will reduce filter maintenance.If you keep that large pleco in that 55g tank you should probably change 50% twice a week!Without pleco 50% a week will yield a well balanced tank in time.Keep changing water if your ammonia is over 1ppm,till it settles down.It really sounds like you have a lot of fish in there.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I agree with bandit above. Plecos are what I consider a fish worthy of the 'Labor of love' category. Plecos provide a LOT of waste, and if you like them enough to keep them(especially when they get big) you had better be prepared to do a lot of water changes. From the sound of it, it sounds like you hadn't been gravel vacuuming during your usual maintenance, which is critical when you have such a high bio-load to keep the system from crashing. As far as your current situation goes, I would just keep doing daily 50% water changes until the ammo and nitrites get under control. do you have a friend that could lend you some used filter media to help seed your canister filter? If so, get some and put it in that canister to help speed up the process.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

foster: All told, I did 2 back-to-back 50% changes when I first noticed the fish congregating on the surface, after confirming the ammonia had spiked. After the fish died I did at least 2 30% changes within a few days, prior to adding the Prime, Ammo, Stress Zyme and Stress Coat. Yes, I did remove both old HOB filters at the same time I removed the UG filter, which was probably not a good idea, because I was removing established, beneficial bacteria. And I did use Prime (a few capfuls), as well as the Ammo and Stress Zyme soon after the fish died (about a week ago), and I've used a bit more since, with the last couple of 30% changes.
tbub: I've been using Prime, 5 capfuls soon after the fish died, as well as Stress Zyme which is supposed to add bacteria. That's a good idea about rotating the canister filter media...the first time, I cleaned every tray, which probably got rid of any bacteria that had been established in the canister.
ionix: Yes, removing the UG filter, or at least cleaning out EVERYTHING that was under the filter, surely removed lots of beneficial bacteria, which is why I highlighted the fact that I vacuumed out what remained of the substrate from under the filter...a bad idea. I did siphon the gravel on top of the UG filter on a regular basis, at least every 2 weeks, and siphoned after I removed the UG filter (when I say I vacuumed, I mean I siphoned/cleaned while doing the water changes. I siphoned/cleaned during both 50% water changes, which is how I removed just about all of the substrate that remained after I removed the UG filter.) Yes, I massacred all of the poo from under the UG filter, but then I vacuumed just about all of the massacred poo out of the gravel. Yes, I know what you mean about readily taking the advice of LFS folks, but believe me I do LOTS of research online as well, some of which is just as unreliable as the advice from the LFS. I can usually tell if the LFS fish person seems to know what they're talking about or is a poser blowing smoke. Yeah, I think she did call it new tank syndrome, and knew that Prime was some prime sh*t, as well as the other API additives she recommended, so you can find knowledgeable people at the LFS once in awhile. What bioload I have in the tank is only what has accumulated in the past week or so, since it was vacuumed clean prior to that. Instead of removing the fish, couldn't I siphon the gravel a bit (or a lot), while doing a couple of water changes at the same time? No more fish have died, and both the nitrates and nitrites are near 0, so I think a combination of water changes and additives could reduce the ammonia fairly quickly. Also, what about the filter media in the canister? I haven't touched it in at least a week, but it might need cleaning and/or changing media. What do you suggest?
tbub: I agree about the canister...for the price, this was rated very highly at Amazon, and some said it performs as well as canisters that are twice the price. It has room for LOTS of filter media, and the rate it pumps water, around 500 gph, is pretty impressive. But considering how much water I've changed in the past week, the tank water should already be fairly clean, and I shouldn't have to move the fish, just to reintroduce them to the tank in a couple of days. If thoroughly cleaning what poo and food has accumulated is what I need to do, then I can do that in short order.
coralbandit: I kinda figured the Pleco was outgrowing the tank..it was 4 or 5 in. when I got it...but it's the only remaining fish worth lookin' at, and I guess I didn't want to think about relocating it. But you're right...I would probably need a 75-110 gal tank to keep it, or find another home for it...I doubt if the LFS would take it...any suggestions? I agree it's contributing a sh*tload of poop, and the tank would be much easier to maintain without it. I would have no problem doing a 50% water change per week, and I know I'm gonna have to do something with most of the Mollies when they approach adult size, but as small as they are now, it seems I should be able to keep 40-50 small Mollies and Guppies comfortably in that tank for awhile.
Manafel: Again, I agree about the Pleco, and doing more water changes to accommodate the big guy. But like I said, I had been doing regular water changes with the cleaning/siphoning, and it wasn't until I removed the UG filter and exposed all the sh*t to the rest of the tank that the ammonia spiked. Regarding the filter media in the canister, my guess is it's already somewhat "used", in that it's picked up quite a bit of stuff it's filtered from the tank, but I could sure confirm that by opening it and eyeballing the filter media. And I'll bet I could find plenty of used filter media from the HOB filters that I've tossed but haven't taken to the curb yet. Is that what you had in mind?
Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions...I guess the course of action I'm leaning towards is to continue 50% water changes every few days, while at the same time continue to add some prime, ammo and stress zyme to help remove the ammonia and add bacteria. How much should I be vacuuming/cleaning while doing the water changes? Regarding the canister, I'll take a look at what's already been trapped and accumulated by the filter media, without removing any for the time being, and possibly add some old used filter media to the canister. Regarding the Pleco, I want it to be comfortable and not just accommodate it by doing more frequent water changes. Of course as long as I have it in the 55 gal tank, I'll do what's necessary in the way of extra water changes to deal with the extra poop, but that's not a long term solution. Now I don't know to do with that guy. Again, thanks much for the input and I welcome additional comments on my suggested course of action. Right now, I think a 50% water change is in order....Kirby


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Do not disturb your canister.If there is a sponge in it you can rinse that,but no matter what the bio media looks like I wouldn't touch it.
Not sure your old filter stuff will still be alive so be careful with that.
Unless you see debris on the substrate I would not vacumm it either(or not more than only 1/2 of it) as the bacteria you seek attaches to surfaces and does not really live in the water.That being said keep changing water ,without vacumming substrate to keep ammonia at 1 or under.0 nitrAte means you have to go through whole cycling process again,so be patient and test for ammonia daily.Remember nitrItes are right up there in hazards to fish so when ammonia drops they'll be the next reason to keep changing water.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

regarding your pleco, I know some LFSs will take overgrown plecos because a lot of people like to have them in their ponds in the warmer months, it wouldn't hurt to call and ask, or ask a friend that might have a bigger tank if they would like it.
As far as your old filter media(that is in the trash I assume) how long has it been out of water/dried up? if it's only been a day or so, you might be lucky enough to still have some bacteria on it. I would pick it up, wash it in dechlorinated tank water and throw it in your canister. It certainly couldn't hurt and if it has some bacteria left, it could help. Just because there is debris in your canister, does not mean that there is plenty of bacteria in it.


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm sure this was stressful enough of an event to educate you some. Don't li k urself hard we all gotta learn just sucks is all. When I switched my main tank from gravel to sand . Although mine was not al that nasty it was still nasty.. crashed my system slightly.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks again people...I did a 50% water change yesterday and siphoned just a bit of the gravel. Tested the ammonia level this morning and it's still pretty high at 4-5, but I guess that's to be expected, right? Should I do another 50% change today? Oh yeah...I didn't touch the canister media per your recommendations....Kirby


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## ionix (Oct 11, 2012)

Kirby said:


> ionix: Yes, removing the UG filter, or at least cleaning out EVERYTHING that was under the filter, surely removed lots of beneficial bacteria, which is why I highlighted the fact that I vacuumed out what remained of the substrate from under the filter...a bad idea. I did siphon the gravel on top of the UG filter on a regular basis, at least every 2 weeks, and siphoned after I removed the UG filter (when I say I vacuumed, I mean I siphoned/cleaned while doing the water changes. I siphoned/cleaned during both 50% water changes, which is how I removed just about all of the substrate that remained after I removed the UG filter.) Yes, I massacred all of the poo from under the UG filter, but then I vacuumed just about all of the massacred poo out of the gravel. Yes, I know what you mean about readily taking the advice of LFS folks, but believe me I do LOTS of research online as well, some of which is just as unreliable as the advice from the LFS. I can usually tell if the LFS fish person seems to know what they're talking about or is a poser blowing smoke. Yeah, I think she did call it new tank syndrome, and knew that Prime was some prime sh*t, as well as the other API additives she recommended, so you can find knowledgeable people at the LFS once in awhile. What bioload I have in the tank is only what has accumulated in the past week or so, since it was vacuumed clean prior to that. Instead of removing the fish, couldn't I siphon the gravel a bit (or a lot), while doing a couple of water changes at the same time? No more fish have died, and both the nitrates and nitrites are near 0, so I think a combination of water changes and additives could reduce the ammonia fairly quickly. Also, what about the filter media in the canister? I haven't touched it in at least a week, but it might need cleaning and/or changing media. What do you suggest?


Well, I'd leave the canister if there were no additional poo entering, because that will feed the beginning of your cycle. With the bio-mass of bacteria doubling every half-hour (I have no idea, I am half on board and half off board with that it does this, but it may), it could hypothetically do its job in a very short amount of time. 

Though the major issue with water changing to aid in cycling is that the water you are probably going to be exchanging to has anti-bacterial properties that wipes out a pretty good amount of the surface bacteria. Again, in theory, often practice differs in adding variables. But it could set you back, every time you do this. 

At that, only do a light clean in the top 50% of the gravel, leaving the bottom portion to seed bacteria back up top. 

Though back to the canister, you'll notice a big run down in the output when its time to clean. It can take a while with an established tank because things are broken down easily and quickly. Some do it every two weeks. I don't because I don't like to fool around with expensive equipment when its obviously fine and, at that, you will learn you do not want to anger the Canister or it'll piss all over your floor while you sleep. Lol.

So, do your method, it may take longer to have the bacteria to build up, but it will work in due time. My way, is a little better because you're letting the bacteria get nice and comfy, then you can keep adding fish to push up the bio-load to the needed amount without worry. It may take a while though to get back to the level of the plecko though lol.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

There are exactly two things that may save your fish, not saying others will not help but this is 35 years of aquarium experience with everything from guppies to Coral to Discus. Add live bacteria NOW. Go buy it from your local aquarium store, do not pass go, collect $200 if you can, but get it in the tank ASAP. Get a new, big, plastic trash can and fill it with water, remove the chlorine, put a heater and bubbler in it and get the water as close to what is in your tank as possible. Change out massive amounts of the water, refilling from the trash can DAILY until the tank cycles. A full cycle will take three weeks. At first you may be changing out 90% but within a week it should be a more reasonable amount.
Get some substrate or other filter media from somebody that has a cycled filter system and put it in your canister.
Idea to make change out easier: I use two 54 gallon trash cans for my change out water pre-prep. I have a 1” hose with a ball valve on the inlet and outlet and a trap on the exhaust end so it does not lose prime. It is very easy to vacuum the tank with little mess because I keep the hose primed. I have a utility pump on the make up so re-filling is easy too. The pump I got from a local aquarium store; everything else from the big box hardware.
We all experiment with filters as we get into this. We have all had major frack ups. Do what I said and save as many of your fishies as you can, then hit me and we will talk about filter systems. There are good combinations to buy, there are better ones you can make, and you need at least two so if one fails you have back up, but I guess you figured that out the hard way. Good luck.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

A general comment on filters: My tank is 240 gallons with a sump and total system volume of nearly 300 gallons. I have two small 29 gallons for hospital/isolation and breeding. My wife will not let me set up my 55 gallon because she says we already live in a fish store. Back in the day under gravel was the bomb. I would not use it today. The best hang on filter type are those that use the bio wheels because of the high oxygenation and space for mechanical filtration. I like a canister but they deplete oxygen in the tank because they have no aeration so you need something to keep oxygen turn over high. I like the combination of a canister and HOT with bio wheels. I do not like direct aeration in the tank because of the mess but that is personal preference. I use a Fluval FX-5 as a backup filter, keep it online but only run it a few hours a day an hour at a time, timer, to keep the bacteria alive. My old display tank is in my garage and serves as the sump for the 240. It is a 110 I got way back in about 1984. The filter is my own design and I built it for function, not price, no compromise and you can’t buy anything that will touch it, but an added bonus is it is darn inexpensive with the main components being hardware buckets and PVC. The water enters through two fine mesh “socks,” drains through bio balls, and finally through a bottom chamber that can contain chemical or substrate, I use substrate only for my application. The heaters and an old power head with an air inlet are in the sump tank. I have a fan that I can use for evaporative cooling in the Houston summers. The water enters an external pump through a final mesh filter and is then returned to the tank.


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

Rod4Rodger said:


> A general comment on filters: My tank is 240 gallons with a sump and total system volume of nearly 300 gallons. I have two small 29 gallons for hospital/isolation and breeding. My wife will not let me set up my 55 gallon because she says we already live in a fish store. Back in the day under gravel was the bomb. I would not use it today. The best hang on filter type are those that use the bio wheels because of the high oxygenation and space for mechanical filtration. I like a canister but they deplete oxygen in the tank because they have no aeration so you need something to keep oxygen turn over high. I like the combination of a canister and HOT with bio wheels. I do not like direct aeration in the tank because of the mess but that is personal preference. I use a Fluval FX-5 as a backup filter, keep it online but only run it a few hours a day an hour at a time, timer, to keep the bacteria alive. My old display tank is in my garage and serves as the sump for the 240. It is a 110 I got way back in about 1984. The filter is my own design and I built it for function, not price, no compromise and you can’t buy anything that will touch it, but an added bonus is it is darn inexpensive with the main components being hardware buckets and PVC. The water enters through two fine mesh “socks,” drains through bio balls, and finally through a bottom chamber that can contain chemical or substrate, I use substrate only for my application. The heaters and an old power head with an air inlet are in the sump tank. I have a fan that I can use for evaporative cooling in the Houston summers. The water enters an external pump through a final mesh filter and is then returned to the tank.


*old dude
I would agree with this in the fact that they do not areate nearly as well at the water surface as an over top . I have been using a sunsun i think its a 304b or 404b IDK but its the one with the 9v uv light in it the fresh water return on this model which is like many has the return bars with little 3 millimeter holes about every 1/2 inch and i have it along my back wall about a 1/2 in above water level . The holes can be angeled at the water or out for current or strait up for a fountain effect ... it also has an extension piece so it can be shortened resulting in stronger force. i use the full length return and have part coming in at such an angle that it effectivly gives me a stronger top water current and some swirl on one end of this tank , (guppies , Ghost catfish both school and sleep ibn this current ) . 
The other side i have experimented making it fountain in or just blow in and either way i see no ill affect on the fish oxygen wise. 
bare in mind im using also a large air pump with 2 lines and dual independent air pumps. i have a 8in air wall stone and a large stump from which i fashioned a 1in air stone inside and the bubbles trickle out the top making it look like a smoking volcano. It also causes natural draw through the stump . to control the pressure how i wanted it and not damage the independent pumps inside i connected the 2 main lines first with a 3way down to 1 single thats where i put my 1 way valve then i split it again in front and used valves , that way as i dial it down on the stump it redirects the unused air back to my long wall stone. its really a nice setup . its so op that i run a spare foam filter in my fry nursery off of a split line and valve also . but this air pump was rated for about 75-100 G and its on a 55G aquarium so in any case , aeration or lack there of is not an issue iv encountered myself.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Couple of good ideas theretbub1221. I like a canister as well. It sounds like you have a plan that works.

I use UV too but I think it is overkill for my fish. I have three Coralife 36 watt spirals in series before the water returns to the tank.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks again for the additional info...
ionix - you said leave the canister alone if there's no additional poo entering...what would keep additional poo from entering? Do you mean if I take the fish out and put them in a garbage can or separate container? Otherwise, if I leave the fish in the tank, then there's nothing to keep more poo from entering the canister. If I had any more valuable fish, I would definitely move them to a clean container, but all I have left are baby guppies and mollies...and the big Pleco, which I definitely want to salvage, but it won't be earth shattering if I lose a few of the babies. I did another 50% water change without disturbing much gravel, and haven't touched the canister yet...the canister output still feels pretty strong. You said "my method" might take longer...I'm not quite sure what you think I should be doing differently.
Rod4 - Like I said in my first post, I have been adding bacteria...Stress Zyme...also adding Ammo Lock, Prime and Stress Coat to reduce the chlorine and ammonia. Like I said earlier, I really don't have anything in my tank left, except the Pleco, that's worth buying extra containers and other stuff for. I do have air lines in the tank, and also have the output tube that tbub was talking about with smaller holes that I could position above the water line to generate more surface aeration. Evidently you guys haven't looked very closely at the canister I got, so here's the link again: 
Amazon.com: Aquatop CF500UV 5-Stage Canister Filter with UV 9W, 525 gph: Pet Supplies
I'm sure there are bigger and better canister filters, but for my purposes this canister should be more than enough. As you can see, it's very highly rated by quite a few people, and some say it's as good as canisters that are twice the price. It really is easy to seal up and take apart...the input and output tubes are sealed with a pivoting lever in one motion, and the top seals easily with not too much pressure, as do the 4 clamps. I haven't seen as much as a drop of water from any of the seals, and the top comes off as easily as it goes on. I should mention that you can fill the canister to just over the top tray before sealing it and establishing the siphon. You don't have to fill it with the pump like the directions say, which can take forever. After I've filled it, sealed the top and turned on the internal pump, it only takes 2-3 minutes to establish the siphon. Also, I got this canister to get away from HOB filters, which were becoming a hassle to maintain and keep clean, so I'd rather not add an HOB filter back on the tank. I'm determined to make the canister work without any HOB filters, and I think I'm getting closer to cycling the tank. And it only takes me about 20 mins. to do a 50% water change, so I don't think I need any hoses running to my sink to speed up water changes. Anyway, the ammonia is finally starting to come down....last check it was 2-4, PH is 6.8-7.0, and both nitrates and nitrites are still near 0. Haven't lost any more fish, although they're still hangin pretty close to the surface. I'm used the last of the Ammo Lock and Stress Zyme today, so I'll pick up more tomorrow. I'm hoping I won't have to do too many more big water changes, but I guess I'll see pretty soon. Thanks again for the input....Kirby


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

The trash can is to make water that is the same temperature and PH as in your tank. Since you are using tap water the PH will be the same, you want to get the chlorine out either with an additive or just run a bubbler overnight. You want to heat it to the same temperature as your tank. The bacterial live on the tocks and surface of things in your filter and tank so changing the water will not affect your bacteria much if it is the same temperature and PH. The point is not to shock the fish which you can see and the bacteria you can’t that are just as important because they keep the fish alive. Changing it out will remove ammonia and nitrogen no matter what part of the cycle it is in. That will keep your fish alive. Leave the fish in their home and try not to disturb them more than necessary. It is like being in the hospital and they wake you up every 20 minutes to poke you again; hard to relax and get over whatever ails you. 

Adding more bacteria along the way will not hurt and only a little, not the huge dose recommended on the bottle because they multiply like, forgive me, bacteria!

A canister filter is a very good thing. Generally the differences are how long they last. All they need to do is move water across the media reliably. Adding aeration either as an HOT or some way of constantly turning over the surface of the water will help the canister work better. That is not a function of how much you spend on the canister but of science, water surface has to come in contact with air to give up carbon dioxide and pick up oxygen. As an added bonus it gives up other things too like chlorine which is why a bubbler overnight in your make up can works as well as a chemical additive.

IT does not matter if you have mollys, discus, oscars, or bass you caught last time you went fishing. They are your pets and you are responsible for their health, total life and death power over their lives and they pay for your mistakes. Yes we have to remember they are just fish and sometimes we lose them. It may not be the same as putting a dog or cat down, but it does hurt because we failed them. The important thing is to learn so you do better next time. Let me tell you what really hurts; you've had them for years, they know your voice, they like you to rub them when you feed them, they gather as soon as you enter the room and greet you, they you do something stupid and they all die. Examples, heater failure cooked them, city replaced a water main and the chemical they used to flush the lines killed them all when I did a change out. My prize, mating pair got sick, I put them in the hospital tank and overdosed them on formalin so in the morning they were dead. Redundant heat controls, pay better attention to water source and prepare make up beter, and never drink rum while tending to my fish were all hard lessons that they paid for with their lives.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Rod4, I value your advice and by no means was I suggesting that it would be inconsequential if I lost the fish I had left. I was just trying to say, in a clumsy way, that I only had the remaining fish for a couple of months (with the exception of the Pleco) and hadn't established a connection to them like I had to the other adult fish that I had for a couple of years, essentially since I had established the tank. I plan to do everything in my power to save the remaining fish, and I'm more encouraged each day. I've only lost 2-3 fish out of 50 or so young guppies and mollies since the big die-off, and I'm trying to follow your advice as best I can. Like I mentioned previously, I've been adding bacteria via Ammo Lock, Stress Zyme to control ammonia and nitrite levels, and Prime to dechlorinate tap water and control ammonia. I did another 30% water change today and added API Tap Water Conditioner to further assist with dechlorination, as well as the chemical treatments I mentioned above, though somewhat smaller amounts. I appreciate your concern about shocking the fish with untreated tap water, and I'm trying to mitigate that by making sure the water I add is the same temperature as that in the tank, as well as adding chemical filtration to reduce the chlorine as quickly as possible. I also hooked up the output tube with small holes at the top of the tank, and positioned it so that water is entering the tank like a fountain to generate more surface aeration, in addition to the air lines at the bottom of the tank. I plan to take a few pictures later to give you a better idea about the set up, as well as my plans to cut one of the posts between doors in the base to get the canister under the tank in the cabinet, since it won't quite fit in door opening. Again Rod4, I appreciate the sage advice, and share your concern about tending properly to critters that you have chosen to care for, which includes doing whatever is necessary to keep them alive and comfortable.....Kirby


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

I uploaded a couple of pics to my member gallery. One shows the canister output flow positioned to create a fountain effect to increase surface aeration.
The second shows my canister next to the cabinet I want to put the canister into. It's tall enough, but not wide enough to fit through the door opening, so I think I'll have to remove the post between doors. Think that will fly?


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Kirby, it sounds like you are doing well. I did not mean to sound like I was on your case about your losses. It is true that on some ways inexpensive fish are not as big a loss as it would be to lose a breeding pair of Discus. I was trying to say, don't down play the importance of losting them just because of the price tag or that there are fifty instead of fifteen. You should see a staedy improvement daily. It is not as important to prep the make up water with "forgiving" fish as it is with marine or Discus, but sick or shocked fish it is. The proceedures you learn will make it easier to keep "harder" fish. You really do not need the chemical chlorine remover if you can keep it in a tank or plastic trash can for a couple of days with a bubbler or old power head. I do not use any with my Discus.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Kirby said:


> I uploaded a couple of pics to my member gallery. One shows the canister output flow positioned to create a fountain effect to increase surface aeration.
> The second shows my canister next to the cabinet I want to put the canister into. It's tall enough, but not wide enough to fit through the door opening, so I think I'll have to remove the post between doors. Think that will fly?


I am better at fish than web pages. Can you link the pictures?


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

When I tried to copy the pics into this thread, a msg came up saying that pics are normally posted in the member gallery, so that's where I posted them. NP on the hard or expensive fish vs easy or not so hard...I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I did come across as having a somewhat cavalier attitude about cheap/young fish vs others, and the bottom line is all are worth saving, without going to extreme measures. Yes, I think it's finally coming around...the fish are not all gasping for air on the surface, water's clearer, and ammonia level continues to drop. Here's the link to the pics...the top 4 are the ones I just took today...tell me what you think about taking out that post in the cabinet between the doors so I can get the canister in...thanks

Aquarium Gallery - Kirby Gallery


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I think you're gonna be fine. You may be able to be a little less agressive with the water return tube and still do what you need. I saw you had some splash but that may have been because you were working on it instead of oversplash. The canister will not require service often and I have to admit I did not look at the details on it, but if the hoses are not quick disconnect you may want to add some with chackvalves to make it easier to slide it out to work on.

I have changed out 100 gallons in a row the last two nights. My fish were fine but I cleaned the tank night before last and the sump last night. My tank is almost bare so that is a wipe down inside and vacuum up the mess. Since I use only biological and changeouts instead of chemicals I never completely clean out the sump but I get all the loose trash out and clean about a third of the media every couple of months. I have four heaters staged with a controller and one was dead so I swaped that out. I will try and post some pictures as soon as I get a few minutes.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Rod4, not quite sure what you meant about being less aggressive with the water return tube. I wasn't really "working on it", I just positioned the tube so that the outflow generated some surface aeration. If you think that's overkill, then I'll just move the outflow tube back under water and rely on the air lines (next to the Pleco) for aeration. The hoses on the canister are quick disconnect, so I think it's time to take a look at contents of the canister and do some light cleaning of the media, making sure that I leave most of the contents of the canister intact. Once the tank has been properly conditioned, I should be able to use just the canister for filtration, without additional HOB filters, correct?
Also, did you get a chance to look at the cabinet, where I'm going to remove the post between the doors to make room for the canister? Just want to be sure that I won't be compromising the support of the cabinet. It doesn't seem like much weight is being supported by that post, and that's the only way the canister will fit in the cabinet...it's too wide to fit through the door. 
I would like to get away from chemicals as well when the tank is fully conditioned, and rely solely on the substrate and water changes to maintain the proper balance. Anyway, I think it's looking better, and I appreciate the feedback...Kirby


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

IMO you should be safe removing the center wood.I have modified and made several stand(75,120,180) and none of them have or use the center support anymore.All weight goes to corners and glass doesn't bend(or shouldn't).My 180 (6'x2') had a center support that I disconnected like you to fit filter in.The 75 and 120(4'x18" &4'x2')have no center support front or back.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

That's good to hear cb...I didn't think it was supporting much, if anything at all, because as you said, the corners bear pretty much all the weight of the tank. Time to break out the hacksaw


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

Kirby said:


> Rod4, not quite sure what you meant about being less aggressive with the water return tube. I wasn't really "working on it", I just positioned the tube so that the outflow generated some surface aeration. If you think that's overkill, then I'll just move the outflow tube back under water and rely on the air lines (next to the Pleco) for aeration. The hoses on the canister are quick disconnect, so I think it's time to take a look at contents of the canister and do some light cleaning of the media, making sure that I leave most of the contents of the canister intact. Once the tank has been properly conditioned, I should be able to use just the canister for filtration, without additional HOB filters, correct?
> Also, did you get a chance to look at the cabinet, where I'm going to remove the post between the doors to make room for the canister? Just want to be sure that I won't be compromising the support of the cabinet. It doesn't seem like much weight is being supported by that post, and that's the only way the canister will fit in the cabinet...it's too wide to fit through the door.
> I would like to get away from chemicals as well when the tank is fully conditioned, and rely solely on the substrate and water changes to maintain the proper balance. Anyway, I think it's looking better, and I appreciate the feedback...Kirby


On the return a lot of splash is not required; turnover is. The way you have it is fine. I thought the splash might be because it was stirring things up more than is actually required. What you want to never have happen is the surface "skin" over and you should be able to detect constant flow at the surface. It does not have to be fast, but it does need to be steady.

I think you will be alright removing the support. If you are worried, remove it then put something in its place. If it is not possible to put it back you could make a piece and put some quick slide furniture feet on it then gently tap it back in place. I am not sure you need it but on mine the front is six feet. The tank is 30" high. I used a 4"x4" and did not put a center support on the front, only on the back. Some of my engineer friends had a stroke! Three years later there is no sag and everything is fine. The glass will not bend so if the weight is supported it should not sag where you remove the support. If it needs the support, it will break. Is a calculated risk but I think it is a safe one unless you live in an area prone to seismic disturbances.

What are you using in your canister? As far as service, less is usually better. Use water you take out of the tank to rinse the biological. Do not do anything more than get off the buildup of waste or you will kill the bacteria. Never change more than half of the chemicals at a time. You will go through the same crap again if you do not think of the bacteria as being as valuable as your fish. You can clean it, but will kill your tank if you kill the germs or overdo it.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> IMO you should be safe removing the center wood.I have modified and made several stand(75,120,180) and none of them have or use the center support anymore.All weight goes to corners and glass doesn't bend(or shouldn't).My 180 (6'x2') had a center support that I disconnected like you to fit filter in.The 75 and 120(4'x18" &4'x2')have no center support front or back.


Your 180 and my 240 are exactly the same size except mine is 30" deep. I do not have a center support for all the reasons you list. I think Kirby will be fine.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I took another look at the pictures. I really think our front "support" is cosmetic only. Take it out.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

I think the tank is finally starting to come around...ammonia is still too high, but it's not off the friggin chart like it has been...actually getting readings other than 0 on nitrites and nitrates...and ph looks to be around 6.4, a bit low I do believe. Took a pic of the API test results, url is:

Aquarium Gallery - API test results 2-27-13

Sorry about the glare on the left side...anyway, would appreciate some feedback. Did a couple of 50% wc's a couple of days apart last week, and pretty thoroughly vacuumed the tank during the 2nd 50% change. Haven't touched the canister filter media for a couple of weeks, wondering if I should at least eyeball the media and maybe get rid of the nastiest trappings and possibly replace half the media. Please advise...thanks much...Kirby

PS...will post a pic of the tank soon...it's as clear as I've ever seen it...gotta be that Purigen...miracle ****


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

No need to ever replace biological media.Rinse in dirty tank water if necessary(no more than once a month.You can clean and rinse your mechanicals(sponge,floss,pads),but I wouldn't touch your bio media yet.
And wow! with those test!I would keep up on waterchanges at least every other day till something goes down.What does your purigen look like?If it's brown it needs to be recharged.Recharging is done by soaking in 50/50 bleach(unscented) and water for 24 hours,followed by 24 hour soak in double dechlorinated water.I usually rinse it really well before soaking in water.You should smell NO bleach after soaking in water.If you do soak in fresh water longer.
I saw your photos of all those mollies,NICE.


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

ditto coralbandit


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

Hey kirby Hows things shaping up ..
i took a look at the water test you posted and i think id keep doing regular water changes , you are dead in the middle of the cycle but thats ok , your one step closer to housing fish again . Also , you are rite to leave the canister alone for a wile .
can i ask , are you using or have you used any biological booster ?


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

With those test you need to keep up aggressive water changes. The ammonia is off the scale and that indicates too much bio mass, food, fish poop, whatever, is loading the tank for the bio you have active. The high nitrogen does indicate you are running a pretty hard biological cycle.
Do not change out the bio, yes wash it in tank water but only if it is loaded up with solid waste matter which you can remove. Do not scrub the bacteria off the surfaces.
Is the PH level ok for the kinds of fish you have? It is about right for Discus but they like very alkaline water. Even if it is a little out of range, if the fish are doing better, don’t do anything heavy handed. i.e. if your kinds of fish do well in water that basic even though the book says they don’t, leave it alone. You can always ask what the PH is at the shop where you buy them.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

R4R, as high as the ammonia level may look in the pic, it's not off the charts...yes, it's higher than it should be, but I can actually see through the green tinted water in the test tube, so it's much improved over what it was a few weeks ago. I'll take a look at the canister media, and only rinse the pads at the bottom of the trays if need be. For the fish I have, Mollys and Guppies for now, I really don't think it's necessary to rinse everything in tank water, especially when I'm doing 30-40% water changes with tap water. I guess I never quite understood why there was this fixation on rinsing things with tank water, when you're introducing gallons of tap water into the tank with water changes. The PH looks to be around 6.4, probably a bit low, but within tolerances.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The reason you rinse stuff in dirty tank water is that chlorine KILLS your good bacteria.Using tap water for tank is fine and 99% of people do.I hope your dechlorinating your tap water before you use it? .The dechlorinator is a huge difference.Without dechlorinating your bacteria has little chance of doing well.If you don't know what is in your water(municipal supply) you may even have cloramine which unlike chlorine does not evaporate over time.
Even if fish live through the levels you have it stands a very good chance of doing internal damage(you'll never see) and will shorten their life span,sometimes dramatically.


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