# Some advise please for a beginner



## Glen M (May 7, 2013)

As you might of seen in my introduction post we've recently purchased a new 200l/45g tank i.e. juwel lido 200. 

As this is our first big (ish) tank I have decided to set it up with real plants rather than the usual plastic. I've had some what confusing advise from several different so call aquarium shops / pet shops and to be honest I'm looking some clarification. 

The tank has now been running for about 5 days. The substrate is a fine gravel about 2" to 3" running front to back. There are various plants the names of which leave me right now but I'll be able to confirm later when I get home from work. I think the lighting in the tank is sufficient, its 2x28w T5 with reflectors. The tank is not very long just 700mm but it is deep at 650mm (rough dimensions). I know this works out at only 0.28w/L but the tank is very bright. We are presently running the lightig for 6 hours per day again on recommendations locally. 

We yesterday added an air pump to help with water flow around the tank. The juwel filter supplied wasn't providing alot of current as most of the plants hung in the water motionless. On adding the air the water circulation is greatly improved with most plants now waving nicely in the current but now I'm worried about lack of co2. I've been doing some reading on here and elsewere and it seems that the air pumps will cause more harm to the plants than good. The pump is plumbed into a 4" air brick discharging along the side of the tank more or less adajcent to the intake of the filter (about 3" away at the surface). Perhaps it should be set to only run at night?

The wife is not keen on a co2 setup as its one more thing to maintain but I am and as a starting point and to keep costs down I was going to try the DIY method. Can the CO2 be plumbed in through the same pipework to the air brick? If I use a few check valves to ensure the air pump can blow into the CO2 bottle and viceversa would this work? Again if the air pump was off during the day and only run at night would there be any problems combining the 2 systems? 

Other thing I was wondering and silly question but surely as there is natural CO2 in the air all around us if I removed the carbon filters from the air pump would that not mean the pump will naturally draw in and supply CO2 along with Oxygen? 

Sorry to ramble on but I'm new to the planting and would like to get it right before to long.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

T5 lighting isnt really measured as wpg. I think you would be ok for some plants with what you have, just probably not carpeting or difficult ones. 

On the DIY CO2, the issue is with larger tanks it isnt as efficient as the pressurised. As for plumbing it in, it could work, depending on how you do it, You have to be sure the bottles will aquire enough pressure to get the CO2 going though, and no way to back into the pump or you can have a bad mess. Think about saving up for the other though because from experience, its almost maintenance free. I have two 20 pound tanks that last close to eight months to a year easily, each. Combined with a timer and an internal diffuser, I just check on the pressure gauge every few days to be sure its all in place. 

As for carbon, its really just to remove meds and discoloration( the latter which I need for my fish) so in part its useless to those who care for the aquarium properly. except for when you need it. So yeah removing that would not be an issue. As for adding CO2 to the tank from there, I suppose it could add a little. Probably not enough to really notice anything though.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

Dosing/w Flourish Excel is the same as injection Co2 but will cost more in the long run. No equipment to buy but watch the cost as some sell it rather high.
This sale ends today at midnight. At the sale price on this site plus the shipping you can get two(16oz) for just a bit more than one at most lfs.
Seachem Flourish Excel Aquatic Plant Supplements
The air pump makes water circulate so as to come in contact/w the surface more than if it weren't circulating and contact/w the surface is where it
gets any exchange of Oxygen/Co2 etc. through the natural process.
I would not use any bulb smaller in Watts than this one. Your tank dimensions are a bit odd and I'm guessing you have a Glasscages.com tank 40H.
With that high of a tank you need the 10,000K bulbs. That link was the only 28" bulb I found. If yours is 22" then you have many options.
Coralife High Output T5 10,000K Lamp Aquarium T5 HO Bulbs
Colormax/ Zoo Med Flora Grow have fairly low visible light. I use one T8 Flora Grow along/w one T8 Ge 6500K daylight. Good plant growth.
The bulbs named "RED" or "Pink" are for plants(check in the wording) but have low visible light. I might use one of them/w a 10,000K light though.
But for the best visible light use two 10,000K bulbs as you have a long way between the bulb and the plants.


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

Iv got the same light on a 29g planted and its more than sufficient I use DIY co2 and haves for a wile.
I use a glass ceramic diffuser.
In my opinion air stones don't allow the co2 to diffuse good. The smaller the co2 bubbled the more effective it is. I experimented wit lots of stones. If you don't want to buy a glass one use a wood diffuser or a 1/3" purse of a bamboo chop stick works beautifully. 
I would think it could work but because the air line is constant and moles more pressure back feeding could occure but also it may create a vacuum on the co2 like a sink siphon. I would run 2 lines if it were me.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Don't hook your co2 to the same line as air pump!Get a good diffuser and run on seperate line.
You are correct in thinking that your air pump is also pump co2(whats in our air).
Ditch the carbon from your filter ,as majerah said it will do nothing for you besides remove meds and even in that case water changes do the same with better effects.


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## WheeledGoat (Jan 29, 2013)

Just remember that you get no real gas exchange from the bubbles that are coming through the airline of an air pump - the gas exchange comes from the surface agitation caused by the bubbles.

If you aren't doing co2 injection of any kind, then a bubbler would help with surface agitation and o2 and co2 exchange.

If you're injecting co2 in any amount (diy or pressurized), a bubbler will quickly dissapate your injected co2 and maybe even completely nullify your efforts.

My own suggestion would be to do Flourish Excel for now - but that's an expensive option long term (API co2 booster is a cheaper alternative). Injected co2 in any form is a bit of a rabbit hole - will be more involved than you think. DIY co2 is fun and cheap, but unpredictable and requires maintenance. IMO, pressurized is the only way to go but expect to spend $200 by the time you're done.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

Please Mr. WheeledGoat,
Could you possibly give a detailed description of how "a bubbler will quickly dissapate your injected Co2 and maybe even..."
I ask because many people use an air pump type filter with one on here even saying that the sponge is the only filter he uses. As this is the same
as and in many cases uses an air stone to work, then quite a few people would like to know about this.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Raymond S. said:


> Please Mr. WheeledGoat,
> Could you possibly give a detailed description of how "a bubbler will quickly dissapate your injected Co2 and maybe even..."
> I ask because many people use an air pump type filter with one on here even saying that the sponge is the only filter he uses. As this is the same
> as and in many cases uses an air stone to work, then quite a few people would like to know about this.


I'll just say all gas exchange do take place at the surface so "breaking " the surface could release co2 if it were a higher level than the atmosphere.
If all the co2 is being"injected" from an air pump(no co2 source) then the depletion possibility is not relavent.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Air bubbles and CO2 injection don't mix well. CO2 injection is done with the intent of artificially boosting the CO2 concentrations to around 30 ppm. Using air bubbles causes the water to "gas off" the CO2 to try and reach the naturally occurring equilibium of CO2 in water, which is around 3 ppm.

People diffuse CO2 into their tanks by diffusers which create TINY bubbles, whereas air bubbles are big. Kinda like the difference between a mist and rain, where mist is the CO2and rain is the air bubbles, in thickness. The purpose of creating tiny bubbles is so that as they move thruogh the water they diffuse into the water - CO2 bubbles that reach the surface are wasted.

Some people WITHOUT CO2 injection might stand to benefit from use of air bubbles, since the plants will consume the available CO2 and drop it BELOW 3 ppm, and the air bubbles will promote gas exchange to try and bring the water back up to 3 ppm.

Lastly, others that have DIY yeast fermentation CO2, which has no ability to turn off overnight, use an air bubbler on a timer to come on at night and prevent elevated CO2 levels from gassing their fish when the lights are off and the plants aren't consuming the CO2 being injected.

Hope this helps clarify a little!


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## rtmaston (Jul 14, 2012)

I thank the light is ok. what ae you feeding your plants.i put plants in when I started the cycle and did very well.


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## Glen M (May 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the replys. From reading whats been said I think I'll try the carbon based liquid first. I'm actually based in the UK but have found a supplier that does something similar to whats being suggested above. The tank has only been setup for a week tomorrow so no fish or anything in yet. I've been told not to dose fertilizer for at least 3 weeks. All my plants to date are as follows:

2no Ludwigia Reppens
2no Echinodorus Biheri
1no Cryptocoryne
2no other smillar to above
3no moss balls
1no moss on rock, think its java moss.

All seem to be starting to grow now with most showing new leaves so something must be working. That being said the Ludwigia and Echinodorus do look tired with withering leaves but they seem to of picked up in the last day or so. I was told to expect this in a new tank with most plants so am not to worried.


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## WheeledGoat (Jan 29, 2013)

sorry for not responding before now, but it looks like Gizmo hit the nail on the head.

bubbles cause surface agitation which promotes gas exchange. gas exchange only tries to reach an equilibrium between the air and water (gas moves from area of high concentration to low concentration). 

if you're trying to have a high concentration of co2 in the water, then by promoting gas exchange (with bubbles), you're just helping the water to give off co2 to the air since it has a lower concentration.


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## Glen M (May 7, 2013)

I've read up on the air bubbles vs co2 and it seems ias you says its going to be one or the other when it comes to co2 gas but what about the liquid? I assume the same will happen? 

Got me thinking though that it would be interesting to completely seal the tank so that it is air tight to create a co2 rich enivroment in the air above the water and utilise gas injection through the bubbles to have gas exchange but with air with a higher co2 level. Would make feeding, pruning, water changes rather difficult but would be interesting to see if it would work.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Glen,

Be careful with sealing the tank, as you might suffocate your fish. Gas exchange functions not only with CO2 but with O2 as well; if there's no absorption of O2 into the tank from the atmosphere, that spells bad news for your fish. And, contrary to my old preconceived notions, the concentration of CO2 and O2 in the water are NOT related to each other - high CO2 levels can kill a fish via anoxia just as easily as depleted O2 levels and suffocation.

The liquid fert you refer to probably is a solution containing bicarbonate (the same stuff as baking soda, except baking soda has the bicarbonate bonded to sodium). Plants can and will utilize bicarbonate to get their carbon if CO2 is not available, but they prefer CO2 because it is easier to absorb and break down for the carbon. In addition, if your water has above 5 degrees of KH, or alkaline hardness, there's already plenty of bicarbonate in the water so you'd be throwing your money away if you bought additional carbon supplements.

Hope this helps!


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