# Mycobacteriosis????? Please help me understand this



## mchapple (Feb 23, 2012)

OK... My tank has finally finished cycling with my platies and dwarf gourami and it was time for me to finally add some fish! So, I bought some Swordtails at the LFS on Thursday of last week. Not sure what kind, they are orange with black fins and black spots. I just moved on the weekend, and really have just been doing some quick feeding and checking on them this week as I haven't had time to really sit down and enjoy them. Tonight I sat down and fed them and have been watching them the last hour or so.

One of the females I got seemed a little funny to me at first when during feeding she didn't seem interested. Then upon closer examination, she just looked a bit different when compared to the others. I noticed her eyes looked a bit funny, kind of pale and glossy when the others had very sharp dark eyes and she seemed to not really know where she was going. At first I thought maybe she was blind. Then looking closer, her stomach seemed a bit sunken, and she was pretty pale in comparison to the others. I notice her dorsal fin also looked a bit jagged. She just kept hiding in the plants, and resting her weight on them or on the bottom, like it was hard for her to keep herself afloat. I took her out of the tank and put her in my smaller tank I have for situations like this.

So I started doing some googling, trying to find something that resembled this. The only thing I can find that sounds even close to this is Mycobacteriosis. 

I found this: "Oftentimes, a fish will arrive in what appears to be a seemingly good condition. Over a short period of time however, it begins to develop an emaciated appearance along the narrow, dorsal edge. A sunken belly becomes noticeable, although bloating (ascites) may also occur, due to fluid accumulation in the body cavity. Unilateral or bilateral exopthalmia (popeye) are common symptoms, as well as lifted scales, pale coloration, and in advanced, chronic cases, spinal curvature. All this soon leads to a loss of appetite, jerky swimming, greatly reduced reactions and reflexes. Ultimately, the affected fish becomes lethargic, seeking the corners of the aquarium, appearing to want to remain apart from it's tank-mates until it dies."

This fish has a lot of these symptoms: emaciated looking, sunken belly, eyes look weird, pale coloration, loss of appetite, jerky swimming and very poor reflexes (when I scooped her out of the tank she barely even faught it), lethargic, and was hiding in the corners and in the plants.

Now, upon further reading this began to really worry me. First of all Tuberculosis is a scary word. I know it's contageous even to humans and can cause all types of problems. 

Do I need to get tested or something? Am I going to get sick? Are all of my fish going to get it and die? Is my entire tank infected?

What do I need to do? Has anyone dealt with this before and can someone please tell me if I am paranoid or if this is really as serious as I think?

Thanks


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

MB (Mycobacteriosis) or fish TB is not as scary human Tuberculosis, they are not the same thing. Humans can be infected by Mycobacteriosis though. Often these are people who work at fish farms or fish shops, there is even one member on here who had an unpleasant experience with it. It causes nasty skin sores and is not to be taken lightly however I think it should also be put in perspective. 

MB is probably more common in fish than we realize, some studies would suggest it is present in most fish stores, but human cases are still relatively rare. The bacteria that cause MB are also found in soil and even drinking water. Many believe that fish are exposed to these bacteria regularly but will usually only become ill if their immune systems are compromised. In fact MB is not one type of bacteria but a whole group, perhaps some strains or species are worse than others because at times fish TB can be very destructive in an aquarium, spreading through all the fish. We do suffer from a lack of both information about and understanding of this disease. It is very hard to know if any particular fish has it without a laboratory analysis. Most of the symptoms could be caused by a variety of illnesses and even apparently healthy fish may be carriers. 

My personal conclusion is to use common sense. Quarantine new fish before putting them in your established tank. Quarantine sick fish. Some may choose to euthanize a fish if they suspect MB. Seeing as stress and the immune system play a part things like drip acclamation, good water quality, stable environment and a balanced diet could make the difference. Humans are believed to catch MB through cuts or skin abrasions on their hands so if you have a cut or suspect MB it might be wise to use gloves when you have your hands in the tank. These precautions should help to keep you and your fish safe... not a 100%... but at least reasonably. After all there are all sorts of nasty things you can catch from a dog, and I don't let mine lick my face, but I don't wash my hands every time I pat him either.

I found this interesting:
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf


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## Cadiedid (Oct 26, 2011)

mchapple- I believe I had my first experience with this disease in my tank recently, and I've been obsessively researching ever since... The article that snail posted is actually one of the best I've come across and although I have found a LOT of conflicting information about MB or M. marinum (the strain I suspected in my fish) after reading countless articles and web sites I would have to agree with everything snail and the article said. One thing I feel I should note is that although I do believe quarantining new fish for a few weeks is undeniably good practice, I have read many articles that claim that this is not necessarily going to protect your tank from infection, as fish may carry M. marinum or even be sick with it for months. I've seen some sources say 3 months, some say even 6. I would still QT your fish for a good 4 weeks, but just thought I should put it out there that it may not protect your fish from M. marinum or other mycobacteria. 

I had actually considered euthanizing all my fish, destroying all my plants and starting over, and to be honest, only time will tell whether my choice NOT to was the right one. I have had only one fish that had all the "classic" signs but have lost a couple fish from that tank to what I thought was wasting disease, so those could have been due to MB as well. The fish I just euthanized had body sores so I will be watching her tank mates closely and euthanizing any diseased fish. I plan to use dedicated equipment for each tank and will not use seeded filter media from either of my existing tanks to cycle new ones. I have shoulder length gloves on order. (Many hobbiest argue that you should always be using long gloves when your hands are in your tanks as you should assume all fish tanks are likely to be contaminated!) With my next paycheck I plan on getting small UV sterilizers for each tank to prevent spread of all disease, not just this one. I will not be sharing any plants or offspring from either tank for until I have had no disease for at least a year. This part may be overkill since many hobbyists probably already have this in their tanks, but I just can't take the risk of spreading this to a friend's tank if they are among the lucky to be uninfected. 

All this being said, the symptoms you listed could really be caused by any number of things and jerky swimming, poor reflexes and lethargy are present in the end stages of any diseased dying fish. At the point where a fish is this gravely ill, there is not usually much you can do and euthanasia may be the most humane option. Watch your other fish and remove to a hospital tank at the first sign of disease. Gouramis appear to be particularly sensitive to m. marinum and other MB and dwarf gouramis also frequently suffer from dwarf gourami disease.

Moving forward with my new tank, I plan to be much choosier about my sources of fish. With a few danios in a 10 gallon tank I guess I felt a little safer about playing fast and loose with buying fish from random LFS and thought I was doing okay by just avoiding fish from big box stores. Buying fish from private breeders is no guarantee, but you can be sure for my 75 gallon I will be doing just that.

Good luck with your new fishies. I think most here will agree that the best prevention against disease is good husbandry practices, so try not to be discouraged. Let your tank age, keep a close eye on your fish, do frequent PWC's and QT new fish and you should have healthy happy fish.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm the forum member who had it. I caught it while working full time, raising a family, and caring for a dying family member. I was completely run down and exhausted. That was a major factor - my immunity was low. I had a cut, and I got a minor disease.
It was not especially painful, but very annoying, and the treatment was long and expensive. The bacteria is heat sensitive, and we are warm mammals, so it only had a superficial effect and couldn't spread much. It isn't a disease to be feared, although I wouldn't go out looking for it.
The two previous postings are dead on, and I agree with them 100%. Normal care and common sense are all that is called for, with gloves should you have an open cut. Cat parasites can make a total mess of you, dogs can give you nasty illnesses, and this one little fish infection can be ^%$^% annoying. 
However, my doctor was a teacher of dermatology at a major university, and I was the first live case he had ever met. Transfer of the disease to humans is really rare.
Pus, there's no guarantee your fish even have it.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Cadiedid said:


> I had actually considered euthanizing all my fish, destroying all my plants and starting over, and to be honest, only time will tell whether my choice NOT to was the right one. I have had only one fish that had all the "classic" signs but have lost a couple fish from that tank to what I thought was wasting disease, so those could have been due to MB as well.


It would be really nice if you started a thread with your experience, giving an honest account of if it was the right thing to do or not . I say this because I have read several accounts written by people who decided the other way. They tore down their tanks, euthanized the fish, chucked the plants, bleached the tank etc. Maybe they did the right thing but it seems a bit drastic to me, especially if it only involved one or two sick fish. It would be nice to hear more from people who have taken a different approach and see how it worked out long term.

I have also done lots of research on the subject as I've worried about the possibility of this disease in one of my tanks due to several unexplained deaths from 'wasting'. The tank is also full of plants and a thriving community of RCS so I have decided to basically do nothing for now and see how it goes.


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## Cadiedid (Oct 26, 2011)

Snail-

Actually, I would be happy to do that. My first thought in reading your suggestion was to write something in a few months after I've had a chance to see what happens, but maybe sooner rather than later might be better, so that I could update as time goes on... Perhaps we could share notes along the way if this is something you're suspecting in your tank. Have you thought about a UV sterilizer to help prevent it from spreading from fish to fish?


The biggest reasons I DIDN'T tear down were:
#1-The fish are my daughter's and the babies of her fish and we are very attached to them. I am also very attached to my plants and my scaping. The idea of killing everything was more than I could take and the idea of doing so made me want to give up on the hobby altogether.
#2-Apparently, bleach does not kill m. marinum. Neither will peroxide. The bacteria encapsulates itself in the presence of unfavorable environments and will become active again when a favorable environment presents itself again. The only way to kill it completely is high heat over time (not sure about the exact temp or time). So I was faced with the possibility of killing EVERYTHING, bleaching the tank and all filters and equipment, and STILL being contaminated.
#3: Many sources I have read suggest that many hobbyists and most big pet stores and LFS already harbor this bacteria in their tanks, whether in the tank itself, or in infected fish, which often show no symptoms. So I knew I could wind up in the same situation again. Worst of all, I wouldn't know if it had come from a particular store or my own tanks.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I found this thread interesting:
UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish - Page 6
The poor guy had an ongoing problem and decided to euthanizing all his fish. It contains a lot of helpful links about heat, bleach and other disinfectants. Bleach and most strong disinfectants are not an option for me anyway because they give me asthma attacks and would probably kill me if not the bacteria . It does mention isopropyl alcohol somewhere there, which I am able to use.


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