# Advise on stocking my son's 10 gallon aquarium



## rf53

I am not quite a beginner. I have some experience in keeping an aquarium. However, I am starting a 10 gallon tank for my son, and I can use some help in selecting the fish for it. 

I started the new tank yesterday with a 20 gallon filter, a 10 gallon air pump, a bubbler that I rigged up, gravel subtrate, a couple of small rock formations and artificial plants. Now we are starting a fishless cycle, although I am thinking about using a hardy fish in a week to move things along with the full intention of having it survive. The only thing I have done to the water so far is treat it with Seachem Prime and thrown in a tiny bit of fish food (one feeding for one fish) to get things going.

I am looking for advise on how to stock the tank (species and numbers). I realize that with a 10 gallon tank we are limited as to numbers, but we want to do the best we can with small, clean fish. I know a betta might be high on some people's list, but their aggressive nature does not really appeal to us. I don't want my son waking up one day to find the betta has killed another fish. Also, the pump and bubbler keep the water flowing nicely and I hear betta's don't really care for that... anyway, no betta's.

As for conditions... We live in Florida. I want to avoid a heater if possible. The house temperature runs a constant 74 degrees with the A/C. Sometimes in the winter it may go down to 70 or so, but only for a few hours. There is more potential for it being over 74 than under 70 by far, but water temperature should remain constant and cool (especially with water changes). We had no trouble with goldfish in the same location.

Additionally, I want an easy to maintain aquarium. clearly we will have to do water changes, and that is fine, but I would like "clean" fish that require the least possible maintenance. After successfully keeping goldfish we are ready for the low end of maintenance.

Finally, this requirement comes from my son... the fish have to look "cool'. So there you have it.

To the questions:

1. Should I do a one species tank, or a community tank?
2. What hardy "cool" fish should I use, and how many?
3. Any specific requirements for the cycling based on the fish I select?

We are thinking about Neon Tetras and/or Zebra Danios. Are we on the right track?

Thanks!


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## coralbandit

White clouds are nice fish,especially long finned if you can find them.The white cloud will toloerate the temp diff also.Although your possible temp swings seem small so is the cost of a heater for a 10g tank .The danios also may well be happy unheated,but the neons IMO will not!Cherry barbs despite being a member of the barb family are colorful and generally peaceful.There are also many very beautiful fancy guppies and an all male tank would look very cool(and they would do ok without heater also).
Finally I'll check out aqadvisor for all your stocking scenarios and waterchange ,filter info. The site will give you insight and info on how many of what,or who will get along(both behaviorally and water quality requirements.
ENJOY!
AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> White clouds are nice fish,especially long finned if you can find them.The white cloud will toloerate the temp diff also.Although your possible temp swings seem small so is the cost of a heater for a 10g tank .The danios also may well be happy unheated,but the neons IMO will not!Cherry barbs despite being a member of the barb family are colorful and generally peaceful.There are also many very beautiful fancy guppies and an all male tank would look very cool(and they would do ok without heater also).
> Finally I'll check out aqadvisor for all your stocking scenarios and waterchange ,filter info. The site will give you insight and info on how many of what,or who will get along(both behaviorally and water quality requirements.
> ENJOY!
> AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor


Thanks for the quick response. So in your opinion White Clouds, Cherry Barbs, and Danios will get along well in a 10 gallon room temperature community tank? I have read a number of posts in a number of forums and it seems not two people can agree on anything. Some feel Danios should be kept in no less than a school of 6 or they will become aggressive, but 6 Danios is too much for a 10g. Others say 3 Danios in a 10g is fine. Some say a 10g tank is too small for Danios altogether... still others say they have 4 or 5 in a 10g tank and all is well. Same goes for Cherry Barbs, only there seems to be more people who find them aggressive, and some say they are suited for a 20g minimum. Sheesh! 

As I see it, my choices are:

4 Zebra Danios, or
4/5 White Cloud Minnows, or
3 Cherry Barbs, or
a Combo of the above... but which?

I was thinking since Zebra Danios are pretty hardy fish I would start the cycle by putting in two of them and do a 10% water change every other day until the readings are stable... a month or six weeks I should think. Then I would add the other fish... maybe two more Danios, although I would love the variety of a White Cloud and a Cherry Barb. Do you think this combo of four is good? If not, how many and which type do you think the 10 gallon tank will be best off with?


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## coralbandit

Between my computer acting up and possibly aqadvisor being slow I only got to 5 cherry barbs for your tank(their recommended number) and they have you at 75+% stocked there alone.so give it a whirl your self and see what they say.
I have only 3 cherry barbs,but they are far from alone in my overstocked 180G!


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## dalfed

Red cherry shrimp and Harlequin Rasbora your son will love the action on the shrimp and you could fit 8 harlequins and 10 shrimp. Please do not use any fish for cycling http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html


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## coralbandit

1^ with dalfed.Great idea and full of activity.Definately look into fishless cycle .


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> Between my computer acting up and possibly aqadvisor being slow I only got to 5 cherry barbs for your tank(their recommended number) and they have you at 75+% stocked there alone.so give it a whirl your self and see what they say.
> I have only 3 cherry barbs,but they are far from alone in my overstocked 180G!


Thanks. AqAdvisor is pretty slick. According to their recommendations and some other stuff I have read, however, it looks like a low maintenance, cool water, community 10g (20 gal filter) aquarium with hardy fish is quite a trick to pull off.

Ir seems Danios, White Clouds, and Cherry Barbs are all schooling fish and are not recommended in groups of less than five. According to AqAdvisor I could fit five White Clouds and five Zebra Danios in the 10g tank, this would leave me with a tank that is 96% stocked, however, and a recommended 28% weekly water change. First, that seems a bit full to me. Second, a three gallon change per week can get old quickly.

I do like the fact that using AqAdvisor's numbers a school of five White Clouds only fills up 59% of the capacity and only calls for an 11% water change. Five Zebra Danios aren't bad either, filling 72% of the capacity and calling for a 17% water change. (How AqAdvisor puts those last ten together and gets 96% capacity is a mystery to me by the way... but don't worry, I'm not going there).

As for the Cherry Barbs, AqAdvisor says they are OK too in groups of five (75% capacity), but I have also read that they can get aggressive in smaller tanks.

Ok, so its either five White Clouds, or five Zebra Danios. Now I want to identify a non-schooling cold water aquarium fish that I can put in with the White Clouds or Danios later on. Suggestions?


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## coralbandit

I've read the american flagfish is suitable for coldwater 10g set ups.Besides the male guppies mentioned before and delfeds suggestion of shrimp(red cherry shrimp) you've almost exhausted coldwater for 10g(besides some wild caught natives).


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## CAM

Your son would love an all male Fancy Tail Guppy tank. You could probably go with about a dozen of them. They like water a little warmer.... 78-ish. But a heater for a 10 gallon to raise the temp a few degrees would be super inexpensive.

They are not only beautiful fish but active and have interesting personalities.


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## bolram

I agree with the Harlequin rasporas and red cherry shrimp. Both of which have always shown me great personalities and always good fun to watch.


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> I've read the american flagfish is suitable for coldwater 10g set ups.Besides the male guppies mentioned before and delfeds suggestion of shrimp(red cherry shrimp) you've almost exhausted coldwater for 10g(besides some wild caught natives).


Well, from the "Don't I feel stupid department", I decided to buy a tank thermometer before stocking the 10g tank, and I'm very glad I did. It seems that the temperature of this non heated tank is running at a constant 75.2 degrees (24 degrees celcius). That changes everything. The cold aquarium fish I had targeted are now probably out of play.

Since this is a new aquarium, I am now thinking of starting to stock it with what I read is the hardiest of fish, the Black Widow Tetra (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi). According to an article I read, this fish seems to be totally unfazed by the rising ammonia and nitrite levels that plague a new setup. According to AqAdvisor, even five of these fish would only account for 68% of a 10g tank stocking level. Most articles I have seen say that a school of 4 to 6 would be fine, so it seems I have other choices I can make.

Does anyone out there have suggestions for good community fish that can be peaceful tank mates with the Black Widow Tetra?


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## coralbandit

No fish is "unfazed" by ammonia or nitrIte!It kills or dramatically shortens their life span if not also loading your tank with fish that will be disease breeders for all future mateswhich won't be many in a 10g stocked to 68% with these "miracle fish" anyways.
Go fishless or ? http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> No fish is "unfazed" by ammonia or nitrIte!It kills or dramatically shortens their life span if not also loading your tank with fish that will be disease breeders for all future mateswhich won't be many in a 10g stocked to 68% with these "miracle fish" anyways.
> Go fishless or ? http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html


Firstly, c'mon now... before you go all fish Nazi on me, read my original post where I said we are starting a fishless cycle. Jumping to conclusions is never a good idea, although many regulars on internet DB's seem to do it for a living. What I am trying to do, if I must explain myself, is find the hardiest fish possible to start stocking WHEN the time is right so survival immediately after the cycle is more probable and the maturation of the tank (in six months or so) can lead to better things for more fragile fish. Did I pass the fish killer yes/no test?

Second, if you have a bone to pick with the information about the Black Widow Tetra, direct that at Pet Age Magazine where the article appeared. Here you go:

10 Great Fish for Beginning Aquarists

Having said that, please know that if someone out there wants to start a fish-in cycle I believe it is their business even though I won't do it... and unless you can say that you or your family have not had a tuna fish sandwich since they announced a few decades ago that tuna fishing kills more innocent fish / dolphins than any other fishing industry... chill.

Finally, I think that I have demonstrated a good plan, and a methodical approach which includes research and thought. If you are truly on the fish rights band-wagon, I would spend more time educating those who have no plan. Did you know that 60% of all fish sold in stores die within two months of being purchased because people have no clue about the affects of chlorinated water, not cycling, or other important survival essential issues?

If you are going to judge me, do it fairly. Thanks.


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## coralbandit

Sorry to apear to flip,but sounded like you were going to cycle with fish you thought were tough enough.You can stock almost any fish in a cycled tank and their being tough is not necessary.
I have NEVER even tried tuna(for real) and not a big fan of eating fish at all.


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## SueD

Depending on what you stock at the top you can also look at adding some dwarf cories for the bottom. Look at cory hasbrosus. Very cute, very active and very small. Can take the cooler temps also. Add 4-5.


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## dalfed

rf53 said:


> Firstly, c'mon now... before you go all fish Nazi on me, read my original post where I said we are starting a fishless cycle. Jumping to conclusions is never a good idea, although many regulars on internet DB's seem to do it for a living. What I am trying to do, if I must explain myself, is find the hardiest fish possible to start stocking WHEN the time is right so survival immediately after the cycle is more probable and the maturation of the tank (in six months or so) can lead to better things for more fragile fish. Did I pass the fish killer yes/no test?
> 
> Second, if you have a bone to pick with the information about the Black Widow Tetra, direct that at Pet Age Magazine where the article appeared. Here you go:
> 
> 10 Great Fish for Beginning Aquarists
> 
> Having said that, please know that if someone out there wants to start a fish-in cycle I believe it is their business even though I won't do it... and unless you can say that you or your family have not had a tuna fish sandwich since they announced a few decades ago that tuna fishing kills more innocent fish / dolphins than any other fishing industry... chill.
> 
> Finally, I think that I have demonstrated a good plan, and a methodical approach which includes research and thought. If you are truly on the fish rights band-wagon, I would spend more time educating those who have no plan. Did you know that 60% of all fish sold in stores die within two months of being purchased because people have no clue about the affects of chlorinated water, not cycling, or other important survival essential issues?
> 
> If you are going to judge me, do it fairly. Thanks.


In fairness yes you said you were starting a fishless cycle but followed that up by saying that you would throw a fish in after a week, did you know that it will take a week for fish food to break down to ammonia (that is why true ammonia is used)? So basically you said you were doing a fish in cycle. Your clarification in this post means yes you did pass the fish killer test lol.
Second don't believe everything you read on the net, I am not familiar with this magazine but it could be a very old article, or an article written by an uneducated person. It used to be an accepted way to cycle a tank but with the new knowledge of the damage it does it is not acceptable any longer. This site is for people to help stop aquarium problems that harm fish, and I will say that there is no one MORE HELPFUL then the Bandit!!
Please remember that it is hard to tell a persons tone when typing but I can safely vouch for this member in telling you that he wants nothing but success for you and your fish. I myself will always error on the side of your fish over your feelings.


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## rf53

dalfed said:


> In fairness yes you said you were starting a fishless cycle but followed that up by saying that you would throw a fish in after a week, did you know that it will take a week for fish food to break down to ammonia (that is why true ammonia is used)? So basically you said you were doing a fish in cycle. Your clarification in this post means yes you did pass the fish killer test lol.
> Second don't believe everything you read on the net, I am not familiar with this magazine but it could be a very old article, or an article written by an uneducated person. It used to be an accepted way to cycle a tank but with the new knowledge of the damage it does it is not acceptable any longer. This site is for people to help stop aquarium problems that harm fish, and I will say that there is no one MORE HELPFUL then the Bandit!!
> Please remember that it is hard to tell a persons tone when typing but I can safely vouch for this member in telling you that he wants nothing but success for you and your fish. I myself will always error on the side of your fish over your feelings.


Yes...I did say that a week into it I might throw in a fish, but I left out that if I do, it would be using Tetra Safe Start. I have not decided yet since I am merely a few days into the tank and just cleared the stage where I have rigged it up correctly and I am now sure it is chlorine free. In South Florida the tap water is so full of chlorine that I want to make sure, even after using Prime. I used a little fish food, but that really won't do a thing. I just wanted to stir things up while I got everything in order.

I had one heck of a condensation issue with the hood, and since this is a tank for my son, I can take no chances on electrical hazards. I purchased a glass top and a strip light. It looks great and is safer now.

Back to the cycling. I have pure ammonia around the house, but I have been reading up on Tetra Safe Start. According to all the information out there 
(to include the manufacturer's guidance and FAQ's), TSS can accelerate the cycle and make the tank safe for fish. It goes something like this:

1. Neutralize the chlorine
2. Wait at least 24 hours
3. Introduce TSS (the recommended dose is 8-10 drops per gallon, but since it is not a chemical you can use the whole bottle if you want).
4. Immediately introduce a fish.
4. Wait two weeks before the first water change, then proceed with regular water changes.
5. Use 8-10 drops of TSS for each gallon used during changes until the bottle is gone (if you didn't use the whole thing up front)
6. Slowly introduce more fish.

I have read that some recommend that you wait two weeks before introducing fish, but the manufacturer's guidance states that if you do this, the good bacteria introduced into the tank will die without something to work on, so the fish (which reportedly will be safe) is necessary.

So what do the fishless cycle only people have to say about TSS? I am very interested in your comments.

Given the fact that misunderstanding of the proper way to conduct an ammonia fishless cycle leads to many, many fish deaths, this may be a better solution. What say you?

Thanks!

PS I agree that you should not believe everything that you read on the internet... isn't this DB on the internet?... Just kidding!


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## coralbandit

Cam and Zwanged both used TSS and stocked fish as per directions.It seemed to work well for both of them.TSS is one of two bottled bacteria that have any documented uses and sucess on this site.
You should definately talk with CAM or Zwanged as they both seem to understand the process and complete instructions very well.
I will agree that if you use TSS then you do need to have fish in tank right from the start as they do feed the bacteria.


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> Cam and Zwanged both used TSS and stocked fish as per directions.It seemed to work well for both of them.TSS is one of two bottled bacteria that have any documented uses and sucess on this site.
> You should definately talk with CAM or Zwanged as they both seem to understand the process and complete instructions very well.
> I will agree that if you use TSS then you do need to have fish in tank right from the start as they do feed the bacteria.


Thanks. I'm thinking of giving it a shot. The instructions I listed above came from reading through every FAQ on the TSS site and taking note of the TSS staff's answers. There is also a very good response from the TSS people on another DB to a bunch of questions by someone about the product. In essence, what I listed boils down that response. That is the recommended method.

I will let you know what I decide.

By the way, I would also like to get back to the issue of what fish to use as a tank mate for the Black Skirt Tetras I plan to start with. Regardless of the cycling method I use, I want hardy fish in first.

I have read that, Zebra Danios, Blue Danios, and Leopard Danios are good tank mates for the BST, but they are all near the low end of the temperature range for my tank since its room temp is at a constant 24 celcius and all of these Danios have a high end tolerance of 24/25 celcius.

An Otocinclus is also recommended and its temp range is right on the money, but it is an algae eater. I may wait until the tank is much more mature before introducing him. Any other suggestions?


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## rtmaston

fancy guppies would be nice


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## zwanged

Hi....welcome! 

Fancy guppies are probably a good choice for starting out -- they are tough -- but get boring pretty fast IMHO. There are lots of other interesting fish out there that could work in a 10 gallon -- you just have to do your research and find them 

A word of caution: I've heard otocinclus can be very fragile when introduced and often die off from the stress of moving them. But I never had them so can't comment on that directly. And you definitely wouldn't want to put them through the stress of fish-in cycling. You're correct there. They likely wouldn't survive the cycling process.

If you cycle 'fish-in', it should be with hardy rather than fragile fish. Only after the tank is established / fully cycled (no nitrites or ammonia, only nitrates) should you start to add the more sensitive fish. Also you should really have the tank up at least a few weeks if not a month before adding any type of algae eaters like otocinclus. They won't have anything to eat.

If you have a good batch of TSS bacteria (not all is, as I have heard of people getting bad batches due to it being stored / kept at the wrong temperature) -- then just add it to the dechlorinated water of your tank (most people prefer the "Prime" dechlorinator ) immediately before you add the fish. 

My experience with TSS bacteria was quite good. I added it with 3 fish to my 75gallon. Ammonia levels peaked out around 1ppm, nitrites peaked out around 0.75ppm. The fish (severum, firemouth, blue acara) were stressed but I had no fish loss. The whole process took me about 10 days to the point where it was cycled (no ammonia/nitrite, just nitrates). If I hadn't used TSS my ammonia and nitrite spikes would have been a lot higher and more damaging if not fatal to the fish.

If you don't already have one, you should get the API master freshwater test kit or something similar. This liquid drop-based kit works much better than test strips. This is an indispensable tool for monitoring the cycling process. 

Let me know if you have any questions.

I look forward to seeing what setup you end up going with!

-Zeke

P.S. bandit is probably one of the most helpful people I've met on this site. He has a lot of experience with fishkeeping and certainly knows what he is talking about.


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## zwanged

Also you shouldn't be starting with *any* ammonia in the tank if you decide to cycle 'fish in'. The fish waste is what produces ammonia.

If you're cycling 'fish in', then the water you're starting with should be fresh, clean water treated with Prime or some other dechlorinator -- at the appropriate temperature.

-Zeke


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## rf53

zwanged said:


> Hi....welcome!
> 
> Fancy guppies are probably a good choice for starting out -- they are tough -- but get boring pretty fast IMHO. There are lots of other interesting fish out there that could work in a 10 gallon -- you just have to do your research and find them
> 
> A word of caution: I've heard otocinclus can be very fragile when introduced and often die off from the stress of moving them. But I never had them so can't comment on that directly. And you definitely wouldn't want to put them through the stress of fish-in cycling. You're correct there. They likely wouldn't survive the cycling process.
> 
> If you cycle 'fish-in', it should be with hardy rather than fragile fish. Only after the tank is established / fully cycled (no nitrites or ammonia, only nitrates) should you start to add the more sensitive fish. Also you should really have the tank up at least a few weeks if not a month before adding any type of algae eaters like otocinclus. They won't have anything to eat.
> 
> If you have a good batch of TSS bacteria (not all is, as I have heard of people getting bad batches due to it being stored / kept at the wrong temperature) -- then just add it to the dechlorinated water of your tank (most people prefer the "Prime" dechlorinator ) immediately before you add the fish.
> 
> My experience with TSS bacteria was quite good. I added it with 3 fish to my 75gallon. Ammonia levels peaked out around 1ppm, nitrites peaked out around 0.75ppm. The fish (severum, firemouth, blue acara) were stressed but I had no fish loss. The whole process took me about 10 days to the point where it was cycled (no ammonia/nitrite, just nitrates). If I hadn't used TSS my ammonia and nitrite spikes would have been a lot higher and more damaging if not fatal to the fish.
> 
> If you don't already have one, you should get the API master freshwater test kit or something similar. This liquid drop-based kit works much better than test strips. This is an indispensable tool for monitoring the cycling process.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> I look forward to seeing what setup you end up going with!
> 
> -Zeke
> 
> P.S. bandit is probably one of the most helpful people I've met on this site. He has a lot of experience with fishkeeping and certainly knows what he is talking about.



You are not kidding about the research part. Making a 10g tank interesting for a kid, and low maintenance, is not the easiest of tasks. 

The Black Skirt Tetras are a go. My son likes them and they are hardy so the first fish in will be the BST's (probably 3 at first, then after a week or two with the Tetra Safe Start I will add 1 or 2 more).

Now... as for what else to include in the tank to make it interesting... 

Gupppies have been suggested several times, but according to my research the BST's will likely fin nip the Guppies, so that's a no.

My son likes Zebra Danios and Leopard Danios. Both of these fish will reportedly get along with the BST's, but the guidance for both the BST's and the Danios is to keep them in groups of five or more. I have read in several places that groups of 3 to 5 are fine... other articles disagree. I have also read that keeping schooling fish in odd numbers is best. Comments?

Harlequin Rasboras have also been suggested. According to AqAdvisor, 5 BST's and 5 Rasboras would do well in a 10g tank, bringing it to 93% capacity and requiring a 27% weekly water change. Too crowded?

Shrimp have also been suggested, however, I have read in numerous places that they will end up as cocktail for the BST's. That's a no on the Shrimp.

As for the Otocinclus... Not the best looking fish around, but it fulfills a purpose and it will get along well with the BST's. The downside of Otocinclus has already been discussed.

My answer may be a Platy. I have read that the BST's in a group of 4 or more will live peacefully alongside a Platy. I have also read that one Platy is fine, but two are not so then it would have to be 1M to 2FM.

So, the latest plan(s) is to go with:

A) 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 1 Platy, and 1 Otocinclus (84% capcity, 20% weekly water changes)

B) 5 Black Skirt Tetras, and 5 Harlequin Rasboras (93% capacity, 27% weekly water changes)

Feel free to vote for plan A or B, or to offer a stocking plan of your own. I'm sure this research will benefit others who may want to start a 10g tank.

Thanks!

PS It would be great to identify other non schooling fish that are attractive, will get along with Black Skirt Tetras, can tolerate a constant 24c temperature, and will do well in a 10g tank.


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## zwanged

Black skirt tetras sound good to me. I'm not an expert on schooling fish or the odd numbers part. I think the important part is exceeding the minimum quantity for schooling fish and if possible having a gender ratio that is appropriate for that given fish (if that fish has aggression issues -- and assuming the fish's gender can easily be determined).

I wouldn't mix the black skirt tetras with guppies. Agree there. 

I feel like for a 10 gallon the difference between a 20% water change and a 27% water change is almost nothing.  

I would prob do minimum school size of 4-5 for each. I like plan B more. Have you considered Diamond or Bleeding Heart Tetras? Those are neat too and they have a lot of color. I would probably do two schools of 4-5 tetras + 1 otocinclus. Sounds like a plan to me. You could also do a single larger school of like 7-8 tetras + 1 oto. Lots of options  

-Zeke





rf53 said:


> You are not kidding about the research part. Making a 10g tank interesting for a kid, and low maintenance, is not the easiest of tasks.
> 
> The Black Skirt Tetras are a go. My son likes them and they are hardy so the first fish in will be the BST's (probably 3 at first, then after a week or two with the Tetra Safe Start I will add 1 or 2 more).
> 
> Now... as for what else to include in the tank to make it interesting...
> 
> Gupppies have been suggested several times, but according to my research the BST's will likely fin nip the Guppies, so that's a no.
> 
> My son likes Zebra Danios and Leopard Danios. Both of these fish will reportedly get along with the BST's, but the guidance for both the BST's and the Danios is to keep them in groups of five or more. I have read in several places that groups of 3 to 5 are fine... other articles disagree. I have also read that keeping schooling fish in odd numbers is best. Comments?
> 
> Harlequin Rasboras have also been suggested. According to AqAdvisor, 5 BST's and 5 Rasboras would do well in a 10g tank, bringing it to 93% capacity and requiring a 27% weekly water change. Too crowded?
> 
> Shrimp have also been suggested, however, I have read in numerous places that they will end up as cocktail for the BST's. That's a no on the Shrimp.
> 
> As for the Otocinclus... Not the best looking fish around, but it fulfills a purpose and it will get along well with the BST's. The downside of Otocinclus has already been discussed.
> 
> My answer may be a Platy. I have read that the BST's in a group of 4 or more will live peacefully alongside a Platy. I have also read that one Platy is fine, but two are not so then it would have to be 1M to 2FM.
> 
> So, the latest plan(s) is to go with:
> 
> A) 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 1 Platy, and 1 Otocinclus (84% capcity, 20% weekly water changes)
> 
> B) 5 Black Skirt Tetras, and 5 Harlequin Rasboras (93% capacity, 27% weekly water changes)
> 
> Feel free to vote for plan A or B, or to offer a stocking plan of your own. I'm sure this research will benefit others who may want to start a 10g tank.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> PS It would be great to identify other non schooling fish that are attractive, will get along with Black Skirt Tetras, can tolerate a constant 24c temperature, and will do well in a 10g tank.


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## DarkestCloud

A dwarf gourami will be fine in 24o C as long as there aren't very big temperature swings. Gouramis have a ton of personality, and many are aware of the environment outside ofthe tank. It might chase your other fish around, but they aren't as fast, and won't cause any damage. Add it last to help avert this.


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## zwanged

Dwarf Gouramis are cool fish. You could do that as a centerpiece fish + the black skirt tetras + oto.

-Zeke




DarkestCloud said:


> A dwarf gourami will be fine in 24o C as long as there aren't very big temperature swings. Gouramis have a ton of personality, and many are aware of the environment outside ofthe tank. It might chase your other fish around, but they aren't as fast, and won't cause any damage. Add it last to help avert this.


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## rf53

zwanged said:


> Black skirt tetras sound good to me. I'm not an expert on schooling fish or the odd numbers part. I think the important part is exceeding the minimum quantity for schooling fish and if possible having a gender ratio that is appropriate for that given fish (if that fish has aggression issues -- and assuming the fish's gender can easily be determined).
> 
> I wouldn't mix the black skirt tetras with guppies. Agree there.
> 
> I feel like for a 10 gallon the difference between a 20% water change and a 27% water change is almost nothing.
> 
> I would prob do minimum school size of 4-5 for each. I like plan B more. Have you considered Diamond or Bleeding Heart Tetras? Those are neat too and they have a lot of color. I would probably do two schools of 4-5 tetras + 1 otocinclus. Sounds like a plan to me. You could also do a single larger school of like 7-8 tetras + 1 oto. Lots of options
> 
> -Zeke


We are getting closer to a stocking plan. 

When you say that you like plan B, do you mean that you prefer Harlequin Rasboras as tank mates for the Black Skirt Tetras? I think they would look cool together and there is plenty of evidence out there that they would get along.

There was another suggestion for a Dwarf Gourami instead of the Rasboras. There are mixed opinions out there about this mix. One guy reported finding his Gourami dead and apparently it was nipped quite a bit. That is clearly the BST's M.O., and he suspected the BST's, but he had no other evidence so he couldn't make the murder charge stick.

There is also the possibility of Neon Tetras. Although some people say that Tetras don't get along with other Tetra species, there is a video on You Tube that shows this combination existing very peacefully. It seems that the trick to keeping schooling fish from being aggressive is to make sure they have enough of their own kind in the tank to calm them down.

Unfortunately, the Bleeding Heart Tetras can't be stocked in the suggested numbers with the BST's. According to AqAdvisor they would overload the 10g tank. 

My son and I have decided to put it up for a vote. We would appreciate input as to why you selected the stocking plan (see below):

Plan 1: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 5 Harlequin Rasboras, and 1 Otocinclus (93% capacity and 27% weekly water change)

Plan 2: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 5 Neon Tetras, and 1 Otocinclus (91% capacity and 26% weekly water change)

Plan 3: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 1 Dwarf Gourami, 1 Otocinclus (87% capacity, 24% weekly water change)

Since capacity is pretty much the same and water changes can be rounded off to 25%, it comes down to the best community.

The polls are open...


----------



## zwanged

It's pretty subjective here. If you really want the brightest colors, then go with the neons. If you really like the rasboras copper-like color, go with them .If you want a fish with an attitude, go with the gourami.

Personally I'd go with the gourami option, but to each his own. The gourami option is kind of like a sampler. 

I'd also increase the size on the black skirt tetra school from 5 to 7. 5 is often the bare minimum for most schooling fish.

-Zeke



rf53 said:


> We are getting closer to a stocking plan.
> 
> When you say that you like plan B, do you mean that you prefer Harlequin Rasboras as tank mates for the Black Skirt Tetras? I think they would look cool together and there is plenty of evidence out there that they would get along.
> 
> There was another suggestion for a Dwarf Gourami instead of the Rasboras. There are mixed opinions out there about this mix. One guy reported finding his Gourami dead and apparently it was nipped quite a bit. That is clearly the BST's M.O., and he suspected the BST's, but he had no other evidence so he couldn't make the murder charge stick.
> 
> There is also the possibility of Neon Tetras. Although some people say that Tetras don't get along with other Tetra species, there is a video on You Tube that shows this combination existing very peacefully. It seems that the trick to keeping schooling fish from being aggressive is to make sure they have enough of their own kind in the tank to calm them down.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Bleeding Heart Tetras can't be stocked in the suggested numbers with the BST's. According to AqAdvisor they would overload the 10g tank.
> 
> My son and I have decided to put it up for a vote. We would appreciate input as to why you selected the stocking plan (see below):
> 
> Plan 1: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 5 Harlequin Rasboras, and 1 Otocinclus (93% capacity and 27% weekly water change)
> 
> Plan 2: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 5 Neon Tetras, and 1 Otocinclus (91% capacity and 26% weekly water change)
> 
> Plan 3: 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 1 Dwarf Gourami, 1 Otocinclus (87% capacity, 24% weekly water change)
> 
> Since capacity is pretty much the same and water changes can be rounded off to 25%, it comes down to the best community.
> 
> The polls are open...


----------



## DarkestCloud

I've had no problems keeping my opaline gourami with 7 harliquin rasboras in a heated 30 gallon with danios and cories. He chases everyone arounda bit, but nobody gets hurt. Also, AqAdvisor isn't 100% reliable, as just about anyone on this forum will tell you. Just a tip. I didn't even bother with it, and my fish are fine together. 

Also, if you want more cleanup help, get a snail. They'll eat just about anything on the gravel and glass, and sometimes you can see their mouth. Really cool little guys. They also act as an early-warning system if your water conditions get weird. They'll hide in their shell.

I'd do 7 bst's, 1 dwarf gourami of your choice, 1 oto, 1 snail because I like snails. Gouramis are awesome, and full of atitude. Tetras are cute, and catfish are ADORABLE. Snails are just 
~*Fabulous*~


----------



## rf53

zwanged said:


> Hi....welcome!
> 
> Fancy guppies are probably a good choice for starting out -- they are tough -- but get boring pretty fast IMHO. There are lots of other interesting fish out there that could work in a 10 gallon -- you just have to do your research and find them
> 
> A word of caution: I've heard otocinclus can be very fragile when introduced and often die off from the stress of moving them. But I never had them so can't comment on that directly. And you definitely wouldn't want to put them through the stress of fish-in cycling. You're correct there. They likely wouldn't survive the cycling process.
> 
> If you cycle 'fish-in', it should be with hardy rather than fragile fish. Only after the tank is established / fully cycled (no nitrites or ammonia, only nitrates) should you start to add the more sensitive fish. Also you should really have the tank up at least a few weeks if not a month before adding any type of algae eaters like otocinclus. They won't have anything to eat.
> 
> If you have a good batch of TSS bacteria (not all is, as I have heard of people getting bad batches due to it being stored / kept at the wrong temperature) -- then just add it to the dechlorinated water of your tank (most people prefer the "Prime" dechlorinator ) immediately before you add the fish.
> 
> My experience with TSS bacteria was quite good. I added it with 3 fish to my 75gallon. Ammonia levels peaked out around 1ppm, nitrites peaked out around 0.75ppm. The fish (severum, firemouth, blue acara) were stressed but I had no fish loss. The whole process took me about 10 days to the point where it was cycled (no ammonia/nitrite, just nitrates). If I hadn't used TSS my ammonia and nitrite spikes would have been a lot higher and more damaging if not fatal to the fish.
> 
> If you don't already have one, you should get the API master freshwater test kit or something similar. This liquid drop-based kit works much better than test strips. This is an indispensable tool for monitoring the cycling process.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> I look forward to seeing what setup you end up going with!
> 
> -Zeke
> 
> P.S. bandit is probably one of the most helpful people I've met on this site. He has a lot of experience with fishkeeping and certainly knows what he is talking about.


Well, we decided to use the Tetra Safe Start. After using the prime and waiting a couple of days we threw in a 3.38 oz bottle of Tetra Safe Start which is good for up to 30g. We saved a few drops of the TSS for the first water change. Then about 30 minutes after the TSS, the first three Black Skirt Tetras were introduced. They took to the tank very nicely, and play with each other quite a bit. Once in a while they hang out in a cave that is directly below the filter flow. A bubbler is keeping the tank nicely aerated. I am feeding once a day, one flake per fish. 

Today is day four, and the nitrite/nitrate level is basically non-existent. Following the TSS instructions, we plan to conduct no water changes until day 14. On day 14, we will do a 20% water change (which is twice the amount recommended for 3 BST's in a 10g tank). At that point we plan to add two more BST's and wait a week for the next water change to continue stocking the tank with the final addition(s).

How does this sound so far? 

What should I watch for in the coming week?

Should I feed once a day, or once every two days in the first 14 days?


----------



## zwanged

Let's recap cycling:

fish poop => ammonia. Ammonia gets broken down by one type of bacteria to nitrite, then nitrite gets broken down by another type of bacteria to nitrATE. nitrates are only toxic to fish at higher concentrations, like 40ppm, whereas ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish at even trace concentrations. But since you're cycling fish in, even with safestart, your fish will be exposed to low levels of ammonia and nitrite -- a necessary evil of cycling fish-in.


The first thing to watch at the beginning of cycling is AMMONIA. If ammonia levels exceed 1ppm you can do a 50% water change. But you will need some ammonia in the tank to cycle.

You shouldn't need to testing for nitrite or nitrate in the first few days though it certainly wouldn't hurt. Some people get confusing readings because their TAP water actually has nitrates in it. At this point I would probably just start testing ammonia and nitrite.

You won't see any nitrite until you start seeing significant concentrations of ammonia (e.g. rising up to about 1ppm).

After you start seeing ammonia, then continue testing ammonia and also start testing for nitrITE. Then, after you start to see nitrite you should test for ammonia, nitrite, AND nitrATE.

The tank will be cycled when you see something like 10-20ppm niTRATE, 0ppm nitrite, 0ppm ammonia.

There's no hard and fast rules to cycling, but it's OK to use the instructions as a rough guide. It would be OK to do a partial 50% water change during cycling if either nitrites or ammonia exceed 1ppm. In my own experience, I didn't need to do any water changes in the first 2 weeks as ammonia and nitrite never exceeded 1ppm (it got pretty close though!). If I hadn't used safestart then the spikes would've likely been higher and more harmful to the fish. I'd like to think that SafeStart helped smooth out the severity of the ammonia and nitrite spikes during cycling, and hopefully will be helpful to you too. 

Just keep an eye on things and keep us posted! What is your current ammonia reading? also, what is the current nitrITE reading?

I think you might be underfeeding your fish. 1 flake per fish sounds pretty low. You can be a little more aggressive with feeding so the tank cycles faster. Just don't overfeed and you should be fine. Best rule of thumb for feeding is: Only feed the fish what can be eaten in the first 2 minutes. If there's uneaten food left over after 2 minutes, you're probably overfeeding. You'll have to experiment with the quantities to get the portions right.

I would strongly recommending feeding at least daily, you need that steady supply of ammonia to get your cycle going. It would take longer if you feed every other day -- the bacteria will take longer to colonize.

Heck, I feed my fish twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. It's fine as long as you don't overfeed.

For when you test nitrates later on in the cycling process:

Note if you're using the API freshwater test kit, for the niTRATE test kit, per the instructions, you need to shake the second bottle a LOT (30 seconds) before adding drops, and then shake the test tube for 60 seconds after adding the second set of drops.

Hope this helps,
-Zeke




rf53 said:


> Well, we decided to use the Tetra Safe Start. After using the prime and waiting a couple of days we threw in a 3.38 oz bottle of Tetra Safe Start which is good for up to 30g. We saved a few drops of the TSS for the first water change. Then about 30 minutes after the TSS, the first three Black Skirt Tetras were introduced. They took to the tank very nicely, and play with each other quite a bit. Once in a while they hang out in a cave that is directly below the filter flow. A bubbler is keeping the tank nicely aerated. I am feeding once a day, one flake per fish.
> 
> Today is day four, and the nitrite/nitrate level is basically non-existent. Following the TSS instructions, we plan to conduct no water changes until day 14. On day 14, we will do a 20% water change (which is twice the amount recommended for 3 BST's in a 10g tank). At that point we plan to add two more BST's and wait a week for the next water change to continue stocking the tank with the final addition(s).
> 
> How does this sound so far?
> 
> What should I watch for in the coming week?
> 
> Should I feed once a day, or once every two days in the first 14 days?


----------



## rf53

zwanged said:


> Let's recap cycling:
> 
> fish poop => ammonia. Ammonia gets broken down by one type of bacteria to nitrite, then nitrite gets broken down by another type of bacteria to nitrATE. nitrates are only toxic to fish at higher concentrations, like 40ppm, whereas ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish at even trace concentrations. But since you're cycling fish in, even with safestart, your fish will be exposed to low levels of ammonia and nitrite -- a necessary evil of cycling fish-in.
> 
> 
> The first thing to watch at the beginning of cycling is AMMONIA. If ammonia levels exceed 1ppm you can do a 50% water change. But you will need some ammonia in the tank to cycle.
> 
> You shouldn't need to testing for nitrite or nitrate in the first few days though it certainly wouldn't hurt. Some people get confusing readings because their TAP water actually has nitrates in it. At this point I would probably just start testing ammonia and nitrite.
> 
> You won't see any nitrite until you start seeing significant concentrations of ammonia (e.g. rising up to about 1ppm).
> 
> After you start seeing ammonia, then continue testing ammonia and also start testing for nitrITE. Then, after you start to see nitrite you should test for ammonia, nitrite, AND nitrATE.
> 
> The tank will be cycled when you see something like 10-20ppm niTRATE, 0ppm nitrite, 0ppm ammonia.
> 
> There's no hard and fast rules to cycling, but it's OK to use the instructions as a rough guide. It would be OK to do a partial 50% water change during cycling if either nitrites or ammonia exceed 1ppm. In my own experience, I didn't need to do any water changes in the first 2 weeks as ammonia and nitrite never exceeded 1ppm (it got pretty close though!). If I hadn't used safestart then the spikes would've likely been higher and more harmful to the fish. I'd like to think that SafeStart helped smooth out the severity of the ammonia and nitrite spikes during cycling, and hopefully will be helpful to you too.
> 
> Just keep an eye on things and keep us posted! What is your current ammonia reading? also, what is the current nitrITE reading?
> 
> I think you might be underfeeding your fish. 1 flake per fish sounds pretty low. You can be a little more aggressive with feeding so the tank cycles faster. Just don't overfeed and you should be fine. Best rule of thumb for feeding is: Only feed the fish what can be eaten in the first 2 minutes. If there's uneaten food left over after 2 minutes, you're probably overfeeding. You'll have to experiment with the quantities to get the portions right.
> 
> I would strongly recommending feeding at least daily, you need that steady supply of ammonia to get your cycle going. It would take longer if you feed every other day -- the bacteria will take longer to colonize.
> 
> Heck, I feed my fish twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. It's fine as long as you don't overfeed.
> 
> For when you test nitrates later on in the cycling process:
> 
> Note if you're using the API freshwater test kit, for the niTRATE test kit, per the instructions, you need to shake the second bottle a LOT (30 seconds) before adding drops, and then shake the test tube for 60 seconds after adding the second set of drops.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> -Zeke


All seems to be well on day 5. I have almost no traces of nitrite or ammonia. I will test again at the one week mark. The fish are active and seem to show no signs of stress. They are eating well. When the tank is dark they seem to do their own thing. One likes to hang out in the middle of the tank, one in the cave, and another goes back and forth between the two. When the light comes on, however, they school up and swim in the middle quite a bit.

As for the feeding routine. I do respect your opinion, but I have read so many contradicting bits of information on feeding that it is difficult to believe there is consensus out there about what is best. Some say feed twice a day, some say feed once a day, some say feeding once every two days is correct. Right now three of four large flakes seem to be satisfying these three small Black Skirt Tetras. We will see what happens when we introduce the other fish.

About the other fish, at least one more BST's is planned. Today my son saw the Harlequin Rasboras and he really liked their look and they way they swim, so they will be next... and that should do it.


----------



## zwanged

If you feed minimally I'm just saying it's going to take a long time for adequate concentrations of ammonia to start appearing and therefore for beneficial bacteria to colonize. It could easily take 1-2 months not 2 weeks. Also you'll be starving your TSS bacteria which will die off and become useless. I don't think the product will work properly if you aren't even getting trace concentrations of ammonia yet. Your tank would still eventually cycle, but without the TSS you may ultimately get a larger ammonia and subsequent nitrite spike than you anticipated.

During cycling, feeding twice a day would probably be a little excessive (unless you feed very small amounts), once a day is fine. I think once every two days is a little extreme as it will prolong the cycling process substantially.

For example, some people make the mistake of trying to cycle their tanks with neons. And neons just don't produce enough waste for their tank to cycle! Or they have a huge 180 gallon tank and only a few tiny fish and the water volume / waste ratio is too high and it takes them forever to get meaningful waste concentrations to get their cycle going and tank established.

After your tank is cycled, though, it certainly makes sense to cut back feeding to make maintenance easier. 

-Zeke



rf53 said:


> All seems to be well on day 5. I have almost no traces of nitrite or ammonia. I will test again at the one week mark. The fish are active and seem to show no signs of stress. They are eating well. When the tank is dark they seem to do their own thing. One likes to hang out in the middle of the tank, one in the cave, and another goes back and forth between the two. When the light comes on, however, they school up and swim in the middle quite a bit.
> 
> As for the feeding routine. I do respect your opinion, but I have read so many contradicting bits of information on feeding that it is difficult to believe there is consensus out there about what is best. Some say feed twice a day, some say feed once a day, some say feeding once every two days is correct. Right now three of four large flakes seem to be satisfying these three small Black Skirt Tetras. We will see what happens when we introduce the other fish.
> 
> About the other fish, at least one more BST's is planned. Today my son saw the Harlequin Rasboras and he really liked their look and they way they swim, so they will be next... and that should do it.


----------



## nate2005

Sounds like it's all coming together nicely. I hope your son is enjoying getting it all set up.


----------



## rf53

zwanged said:


> If you feed minimally I'm just saying it's going to take a long time for adequate concentrations of ammonia to start appearing and therefore for beneficial bacteria to colonize. It could easily take 1-2 months not 2 weeks. Also you'll be starving your TSS bacteria which will die off and become useless. I don't think the product will work properly if you aren't even getting trace concentrations of ammonia yet. Your tank would still eventually cycle, but without the TSS you may ultimately get a larger ammonia and subsequent nitrite spike than you anticipated.
> 
> During cycling, feeding twice a day would probably be a little excessive (unless you feed very small amounts), once a day is fine. I think once every two days is a little extreme as it will prolong the cycling process substantially.
> 
> For example, some people make the mistake of trying to cycle their tanks with neons. And neons just don't produce enough waste for their tank to cycle! Or they have a huge 180 gallon tank and only a few tiny fish and the water volume / waste ratio is too high and it takes them forever to get meaningful waste concentrations to get their cycle going and tank established.
> 
> After your tank is cycled, though, it certainly makes sense to cut back feeding to make maintenance easier.
> 
> -Zeke


I see the point of feeding well during the initial cycle and then cutting back later to avoid spikes. I will add some food so the fish create more waste. I also have a gallon of water standing by that has been sitting for a couple of days just in case I need a water change. I was thinking of using half of that with the remaining TSS in order to freshen the water and add more bacteria. Is that a good idea?

I know that sitting around for 48-72 hours will neutralize the chlorine, but not the chloramines. Should I add a drop of prime and let it sit for another 24 hours before adding the TSS, or just keep going with the water that is in the tank now. Evaporation has been minimal, but I have room for at least half of a gallon.


----------



## rf53

nate2005 said:


> Sounds like it's all coming together nicely. I hope your son is enjoying getting it all set up.


He is. He watches the fish swim every night. I do too. I have read that it helps to lower blood pressure, and after a long day at work I could use all the help I can get!


----------



## coralbandit

rf53 said:


> I see the point of feeding well during the initial cycle and then cutting back later to avoid spikes. I will add some food so the fish create more waste. I also have a gallon of water standing by that has been sitting for a couple of days just in case I need a water change. I was thinking of using half of that with the remaining TSS in order to freshen the water and add more bacteria. Is that a good idea?
> 
> I know that sitting around for 48-72 hours will neutralize the chlorine, but not the chloramines. Should I add a drop of prime and let it sit for another 24 hours before adding the TSS, or just keep going with the water that is in the tank now. Evaporation has been minimal, but I have room for at least half of a gallon.


I'll let Zeke answer your TSS question.But about your water chlorine/cloramine;You are correct that chloramine does not evaporate.A quick check on the net of your water supplier should tell you if they use chloramine or not.Also will give you annuall or semi anuall report on your suppliers water quality.If you need to use prime to rid the chloramine then I would wait the rcommended 24Hrs.


----------



## zwanged

I wasn't aware that prime took 24 hours to neutralize chloramine. I thought it neutralized chlorine and chloramines relatively instantaneously. But it wasn't an issue for me because my water supplier only admits to using chlorine....Good to know.

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> I'll let Zeke answer your TSS question.But about your water chlorine/cloramine;You are correct that chloramine does not evaporate.A quick check on the net of your water supplier should tell you if they use chloramine or not.Also will give you annuall or semi anuall report on your suppliers water quality.If you need to use prime to rid the chloramine then I would wait the rcommended 24Hrs.


----------



## zwanged

Doubt it would hurt but also probably not necessary. I'd only do a water change if you see ammonia or nitrite > 1ppm, otherwise just sit tight and let the bacteria do their job . And if you do have to do a water change if levels get that high, you'd want to do more like a 40% water change and not a 10% water change. If you do end up changing water only add the remaining TSS right before you add that water to the tank for the water change. You don't want it sitting around or it'll probably just die off without a waste (ammonia) source.



coralbandit said:


> I'll let Zeke answer your TSS question.But about your water chlorine/cloramine;You are correct that chloramine does not evaporate.A quick check on the net of your water supplier should tell you if they use chloramine or not.Also will give you annuall or semi anuall report on your suppliers water quality.If you need to use prime to rid the chloramine then I would wait the rcommended 24Hrs.


----------



## coralbandit

zwanged said:


> I wasn't aware that prime took 24 hours to neutralize chloramine. I thought it neutralized chlorine and chloramines relatively instantaneously. But it wasn't an issue for me because my water supplier only admits to using chlorine....Good to know.
> 
> -zeke


Prime works "instantly" ,but TSS says not to use dechlorinators within 24 Hrs of adding bacteria.Although they contradict themselves later saying it can used during waterchanges(Labled skeptic,I am,but know others have done well with it).


----------



## rf53

coralbandit said:


> Prime works "instantly" ,but TSS says not to use dechlorinators within 24 Hrs of adding bacteria.Although they contradict themselves later saying it can used during waterchanges(Labled skeptic,I am,but know others have done well with it).


Not to go off like an expert (because I am far from that) but I found the answer. From what I have read, the TSS people provide the 24 hour warning when TSS is used in conjunction with Prime, etc. during start-up because a chloramine remover or detoxifier, or anything that locks up ammonia, or removes ammonia will kill the bacteria in TSS. Once the tank is established and there is plenty of healthy bacteria it does not seem to cause such a problem because most of the bacteria will survive unless you use massive amounts of Prime. However, it is still a good practice to let the water sit with Prime for at least 24 hours before using it in water changes to ensure that you are killing no healthy bacteria at all.

Also note: The TSS people advise NOT to use products like Prime for at least seven days AFTER using TSS to start-up. The TSS bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia you will remove all of the food the bacteria require to live. Using Prime within seven days of a TSS start-up will put you back to square one.

Make sense?


----------



## zwanged

That's strange. I definitely didn't wait 24 hours before adding TSS  24 hours seems like overkill. 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Prime works "instantly" ,but TSS says not to use dechlorinators within 24 Hrs of adding bacteria.Although they contradict themselves later saying it can used during waterchanges(Labled skeptic,I am,but know others have done well with it).


----------



## zwanged

As far as I know, Prime is only capable of locking up small amounts of ammonia and nitrite, so if your fish are producing a lot of waste anyway, prime won't be able to stop ammonia and nitrite from forming anyway. <Shrug> And Prime's half life is 24 hours . 

-Zeke


----------



## rf53

zwanged said:


> That's strange. I definitely didn't wait 24 hours before adding TSS  24 hours seems like overkill.
> 
> -Zeke


Here is the information I found posted by the Tetra Care team in response to questions regarding TSS:

So...where to begin? First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let
it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store
for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should
add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per
ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just
need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate matters by
overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks
since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to
territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one
small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two
weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly
adding more fish, one at a time.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live.

If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to
get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as
toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some
of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to
do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not
seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a
chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7
days.

Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and
extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary.

You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at
least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and
making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia
occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create
levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay
there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels
would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but
not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the
fish.

We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for
some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend
a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has
done something wrong the first time, in such cases.

Nope, bacteria should not affect the pH.

Hmmm....be sure the levels are not already toxic, shake the container
thoroughly, be sure to add the right dosage, do not use an ammonia
detoxifying product, and be patient. It won't give you zero readings in
an hour, like some folks think. By the way, carbon does not affect it
but uv lights do...we get those questions too.  And just an
interesting point...the large aquariums, such as the Georgia Aquarium,
and the Shedd Aquarium, as well as huge research labs in this country
and other countries, also use TSS as well as the saltwater version Bio
Spira.

If I have not addressed all of your questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Tetra Care


----------



## zwanged

I don't consider Prime an ammonia removing product, it only temporarily (and reversibly) locks up ammonia, and very little at that. But if you want to follow Tetra's instructions to the letter, it can't hurt. I'm just saying what worked for me.

-Zeke


----------



## rf53

zwanged said:


> I don't consider Prime an ammonia removing product, it only temporarily (and reversibly) locks up ammonia, and very little at that. But if you want to follow Tetra's instructions to the letter, it can't hurt. I'm just saying what worked for me.
> 
> -Zeke


What is it they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The more I read, the more I know that there are several ways to achieve this goal.

As for me... Day 8: The fish are doing well. I have no traces of Nitrites, an "ideal" reading of Ammonia, and slightly elevated, but acceptable levels of Nitrates ( >20 ). According to the TSS instructions by next Wednesday I should be doing my first water change and then I can stock a couple more fish.

I guess I am waiting for the Nitrates to rise and then fall, but they have not gone above where they are now. Everything has been pretty stable.


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## zwanged

Have you tested your tap water to make sure it doesn't have nitrates to begin with? And have you detected any nitrites yet thus far? It would be unusual to see nitrates but no nitrites prior to that unless your tap water already had nitrates present. 

-Zeke



rf53 said:


> What is it they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The more I read, the more I know that there are several ways to achieve this goal.
> 
> As for me... Day 8: The fish are doing well. I have no traces of Nitrites, an "ideal" reading of Ammonia, and slightly elevated, but acceptable levels of Nitrates ( >20 ). According to the TSS instructions by next Wednesday I should be doing my first water change and then I can stock a couple more fish.
> 
> I guess I am waiting for the Nitrates to rise and then fall, but they have not gone above where they are now. Everything has been pretty stable.


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## rf53

zwanged said:


> Have you tested your tap water to make sure it doesn't have nitrates? And have you detected any nitrites yet thus far? It would be unusual to see nitrates but no nitrites prior to that unless your tap water already had nitrates present.
> 
> -Zeke


My baseline test was:

NO2 = 0 
N03 = 0
PH = 7
No Ammonia


Today (day 8):

NO2 = 0
N03 = 20ish (under)
Ammonia ideal

I have only tested on day 3 and on day 8. No Nitrites on either day, but on day 3 a trace of Nitrates started showing up. PH has been a constant 6.5 to 7. Maybe the Nitrites came and went between day 3 and day 7. Could it have happened that quickly?


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## zwanged

Sounds like you're on the right track.

It's definitely possible and likely based on what you told me and would be on the fast side. My 75 gallon tank took 10 days to initially cycle with safestart. What do you mean by an "ideal" reading for ammonia -- how many PPM is that? Like 0.25ppm? You'll want ammonia to read zero (and nitrite to remain 0) before you should convince yourself that it's cycled 

Once you get 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and ~10-20ppm nitrates you should be OK to commence water changes, whether or not you are at the 2 week point. You can probably sit tight until the 2 week point, but if your nitrates hit 40ppm before then you definitely should consider doing a 50% water change. 

Your tank will still be very iffy/fragile for the first few weeks even after this initial cycling -- you may still get short 'mini cycles' as you add fish -- it takes a while for the bacteria to truly get established and in balance with the waste being produced.

-Zeke



rf53 said:


> My baseline test was:
> 
> NO2 = 0
> N03 = 0
> PH = 7
> No Ammonia
> 
> 
> Today (day 8):
> 
> NO2 = 0
> N03 = 20ish (under)
> Ammonia ideal
> 
> I have only tested on day 3 and on day 8. No Nitrites on either day, but on day 3 a trace of Nitrates started showing up. PH has been a constant 6.5 to 7. Maybe the Nitrites came and went between day 3 and day 7. Could it have happened that quickly?


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## rf53

zwanged said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track.
> 
> It's definitely possible and likely based on what you told me and would be on the fast side. My 75 gallon tank took 10 days to initially cycle with safestart. What do you mean by an "ideal" reading for ammonia -- how many PPM is that? Like 0.25ppm? You'll want ammonia to read zero (and nitrite to remain 0) before you should convince yourself that it's cycled
> 
> Once you get 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and ~10-20ppm nitrates you should be OK to commence water changes, whether or not you are at the 2 week point. You can probably sit tight until the 2 week point, but if your nitrates hit 40ppm you definitely should consider doing a 50% water change.
> 
> Your tank will still be very iffy/fragile for the first few weeks even after this initial cycling -- you may still get 'mini cycles' as you add fish -- it takes a while for the bacteria to truly get established and in balance with the waste being produced.
> 
> -Zeke


By the color chart I am a pale 0.25 ppm for Ammonia, and 10 - 20 ppm for Nitrates eight days in. I know the water around here. The last time I did this it was with goldfish and we had one heck of a Nitrate spike a few days in (don't be haters fishless cycle people... they did fine and are alive and well today). The only difference this time is the TSS. I know two goldfish create much more waste than three small Tetras, so I am still going to keep a close eye on things in the days to come. At the two week mark I only plan to introduce one or two more Tetras and then wait a week or two.


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## dalfed

Nitrifying Bacteria Mixtures Work - Provided.... | DrTim's Aquatics As one of the "fishless cycle people" I have researched TSS and other bacteria in a bottle companies more then I could honestly lay claim too, because nothing would make me happier in this hobby for a miracle cycling cure!! The link I gave you is by the leading researcher in the US on BIB and has made amazing advances in this product!
He still is honest enough to let consumers know that it is not fail safe. For this reason (as others on this forum can attest to) when I give personal help on tank cycling I do recommend bottled bacteria, but NEVER with fish in. Instead of the four ppm ammonia source keep it to 1ppm and keep an eye on nitrites to maintain them at or below 1 ppm as well. 
The last op I helped this way had his tank completely cycled and fully stocked in 14 days 4ppm ammonia to 0-0-? in 24 hours. So yes I am open to new ideas, and this has the potential to be hobby changing, I still would never put fish at risk of it not working when a lifeless ammonia source works just as well. But I wouldn't chain my dog to a tree in a thunderstorm either so maybe I've become a tree hugger, so be it.


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## rf53

dalfed said:


> Nitrifying Bacteria Mixtures Work - Provided.... | DrTim's Aquatics As one of the "fishless cycle people" I have researched TSS and other bacteria in a bottle companies more then I could honestly lay claim too, because nothing would make me happier in this hobby for a miracle cycling cure!! The link I gave you is by the leading researcher in the US on BIB and has made amazing advances in this product!
> He still is honest enough to let consumers know that it is not fail safe. For this reason (as others on this forum can attest to) when I give personal help on tank cycling I do recommend bottled bacteria, but NEVER with fish in. Instead of the four ppm ammonia source keep it to 1ppm and keep an eye on nitrites to maintain them at or below 1 ppm as well.
> The last op I helped this way had his tank completely cycled and fully stocked in 14 days 4ppm ammonia to 0-0-? in 24 hours. So yes I am open to new ideas, and this has the potential to be hobby changing, I still would never put fish at risk of it not working when a lifeless ammonia source works just as well. But I wouldn't chain my dog to a tree in a thunderstorm either so maybe I've become a tree hugger, so be it.


Hmmm, I knew I was going to draw some one out with that fishless cycle people / hater comment the minute I hit the submit button! I gotta trust my instincts more.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I truly respect yours. I guess you are the fish rights activist on this DB. Good to know you. Take what I write below as tongue-in-cheek... sort of. 

Your recommendation of TSS without fish is a waste of money according to the directions and guidance of the product makers. TSS bacteria will die, they say, within two hours of being introduced without something to feed on... yes, I know... you say you can use lifeless ammonia, but I can guarantee you that 90% of the people out there will be totally turned off by making the cycling process more complicated than it already is. Remember, a large number of people don't even know that the water has to be cycled. Introduce concepts that make it sound like we are regressing them back to chemistry lab and you will lose them for sure. We could probably argue "complicated" until the cows come home, but trust me, I'm right on this one.

About that "chain my dog to a tree in a thunderstorm" reference... hmmm, pretty dark stuff. Comparing that to doing a fish-in cycle using TSS is a bit over the top, don't you think? By the way, in this country we overdose our canines with all sorts of ointments and powders to prevent everything from tics to fleas and whatever else lies in between. Most domestic pets are so full of chemicals I'm surprised they don't glow in the dark. But whatever.

Lastly, I wouldn't consider you a tree hugger as much as I would consider you a fish hugger... but you go on hugging, its admirable. Someone has to keep us honest as we play with our chemistry sets.


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## dalfed

rf53 said:


> Hmmm, I knew I was going to draw some one out with that fishless cycle people / hater comment the minute I hit the submit button! I gotta trust my instincts more.
> 
> Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I truly respect yours. I guess you are the fish rights activist on this DB. Good to know you. Take what I write below as tongue-in-cheek... sort of.
> 
> Your recommendation of TSS without fish is a waste of money according to the directions and guidance of the product makers. TSS bacteria will die, they say, within two hours of being introduced without something to feed on... yes, I know... you say you can use lifeless ammonia, but I can guarantee you that 90% of the people out there will be totally turned off by making the cycling process more complicated than it already is. Remember, a large number of people don't even know that the water has to be cycled. Introduce concepts that make it sound like we are regressing them back to chemistry lab and you will lose them for sure. We could probably argue "complicated" until the cows come home, but trust me, I'm right on this one.
> 
> About that "chain my dog to a tree in a thunderstorm" reference... hmmm, pretty dark stuff. Comparing that to doing a fish-in cycle using TSS is a bit over the top, don't you think? By the way, in this country we overdose our canines with all sorts of ointments and powders to prevent everything from tics to fleas and whatever else lies in between. Most domestic pets are so full of chemicals I'm surprised they don't glow in the dark. But whatever.
> 
> Lastly, I wouldn't consider you a tree hugger as much as I would consider you a fish hugger... but you go on hugging, its admirable. Someone has to keep us honest as we play with our chemistry sets.


Is it a waste of money or too complicated for you? Not sure how guaranteeing the bacteria the ammonia they need is a waste of money, killing fish by not knowing if the product has been over heated or frozen during shipment seems to be the waste of money. So if it is too complicated for you I understand but I have only encountered you so far in two years who did not try to cycle properly once they knew how and you are not 90% sorry.
And by the way after I found out what went in certain dog foods and medicines they now get 100% natural from a company close buy. Not knowing is passable not acting on knowledge given to me is cruelty.


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## coralbandit

rf53 said:


> Hmmm, I knew I was going to draw some one out with that fishless cycle people / hater comment the minute I hit the submit button! I gotta trust my instincts more.
> 
> Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I truly respect yours. I guess you are the fish rights activist on this DB. Good to know you. Take what I write below as tongue-in-cheek... sort of.
> 
> Your recommendation of TSS without fish is a waste of money according to the directions and guidance of the product makers. TSS bacteria will die, they say, within two hours of being introduced without something to feed on... yes, I know... you say you can use lifeless ammonia, but I can guarantee you that 90% of the people out there will be totally turned off by making the cycling process more complicated than it already is. Remember, a large number of people don't even know that the water has to be cycled. Introduce concepts that make it sound like we are regressing them back to chemistry lab and you will lose them for sure. We could probably argue "complicated" until the cows come home, but trust me, I'm right on this one.


Sounds like you're always right(I won't trust you).Possibly a simple answer to Zekes question on the test results or your tap water would help clarify where your tank is at.Many people have nitrAtes in their source water.Possibly these chemistry test are "complicated",but will help those who are trying to help you(maybe you don't need help).Possibly the only help or advice you want or will accept is from those who say how right you are or pat you on your back?
What a shame to not hear what others have say as most who have added their thoughts are the most knowledgable/helpful people on site.Study up on illness and symptoms of diseases as I can only feel if you ever get into a situation of needing help for the well being of your fish you will have already turned off the members who could/or would have helped you,or would as seems to be your MO argue their opinions!
It's not rocket science,but help and advice from seasoned vetrans is usaully welcomed by those who really care,good luck!


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## rf53

coralbandit said:


> Sounds like you're always right(I won't trust you).Possibly a simple answer to Zekes question on the test results or your tap water would help clarify where your tank is at.Many people have nitrAtes in their source water.Possibly these chemistry test are "complicated",but will help those who are trying to help you(maybe you don't need help).Possibly the only help or advice you want or will accept is from those who say how right you are or pat you on your back?
> What a shame to not hear what others have say as most who have added their thoughts are the most knowledgable/helpful people on site.Study up on illness and symptoms of diseases as I can only feel if you ever get into a situation of needing help for the well being of your fish you will have already turned off the members who could/or would have helped you,or would as seems to be your MO argue their opinions!
> It's not rocket science,but help and advice from seasoned vetrans is usaully welcomed by those who really care,good luck!



Goodness... please read before you answer. I would expect a "seasoned veteran" to do so. If you had taken a moment to do that, you would have seen that I did post a simple answer to Zeke's question immediately after he asked (see the results of my baseline test... baseline means a test done before adding any chemical or fish in order to establish the original readings). It was N02 = 0, N03 = 0, PH = 7, no ammonia. There, I saved you the trouble of looking back at my post. Satisfied? Reading one simple post would have negated the visceral need you seem to have to chastise rather than to counsel. That makes me question your judgment about... well, everything.

I appreciate your passion, and I am not always right... far from it, that is why I am asking questions here all the time. Now, I think I told you before that if you READ my posts you will see that I may not have done things your way, but I have done things responsibly, and no differently than many others here. I am really through explaining myself to you and I would appreciate it if you would bypass this thread from now on. Be well.


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## coralbandit

My bad on not understanding what you meant by baseline,as you listed day 8 reading after ,I didn't think you tested your source for 8 days.Either way you don't have to read my post or accept help or advise from anyone.It is your(and your sons)tank.Most here wish you sucess and the fewest problems possible.It is easy enough to "unfriend "me so you don't have to hear me,but I have concern for all animals in the hands of people unwilling to accept help and advice.Whatever good luck!


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## zwanged

Calm down everyone!  I think a misunderstanding has been blown out of proportion. May want to consider deleting all the nasty posts as they are painful to read. The fish would not approve! 

-Zeke


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## DarkestCloud

Yes. Both of you, get off of your high seahorses. No more passive-aggressiveness from either of you. Calm down. Deep breathes. Let it go. Not worth fighting about.


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