# cyano--Fw and marine



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

In another thread:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/stagnation-argument-filtration-38866-3.html


coralbandit posted:



coralbandit said:


> I came here to learn and hoped to help. I'm not to deep for you nav. You get it. But not knowing all Bob did just ring a bell so I have to ask; is cyano good?It may well serve as replacement to nothing, but beside nothing all that ever grew in my Tang. tank was that----cyano. ONLY fw tank I had to ever grow cyano. Was it good?


So rather then start another tangent in that thread I though I would open this thread on cyano in our tanks.

Cyano is cyanobacteria which is a bacteria that also uses photosynthesis and therefore get some of it's food from light and nutrients like plants.

And it does occur in all environments on the earth including our fw and marine aquariums. 

For instance, the green "mold" on the north sides of trees-- probably cyano.

The mold in houses-- probably cyano.

Polar bears sometimes have a green tinge in their fur--again cyano.

Back even before I was a kid the earth's atomosphere was originally carbon dioxide with little or no oxygen. Guess what? Cyano consumed the carbon dioxide and realeased the oxygen we have today. It was one of the original life forms on Earth. I can almost remember those days. *r2

Some forms of cyano are much like soybeans farmers rotate crops with to add nitrogen to the soil. Because the beans take nitrogen from the air and form bumps of nitrogen in the soil.

In much the same way cyano can take nitrogen from the nitrogen gas in the tank water instead of consuming ammonia and nitrates.

So what can happen in both Fw and marine tanks everything is going along fine and after a few months nitrogen drops down. Really really good you're feeling you have a very successful tank.

Then here comes the cyano. And it in a short while covers everything. and I mean everything. Substrate, glass, decorations, plants, corals everything.

In FW you have the blue-green slime type algae and black beard algae on the plants. In salt you have a red slime algea. In advanced cases it can even form thick mat.

You clean it up. It comes back.

You add (I don't recommend this) antibiotics. It comes back.

What has happened is the system has gotten out of balance with "extra" phosphates which the cyano can use with the nitrogen gas to thrive. 

And in doing so limits the nutrients available for the fw plants or marine algaes and corals.

So the tank can rapidily become cyano dominated and deteriorates.

My fix is relatively simple. And has worked 100% of the time.

Kill the lights and stop feeding the fish. Usually in a few days but perhaps a couple of weeks at most, the cyano dies off.

From the point you resume with say 1/2 l ighting and feeding and adjust until the tank thrives but not the cyano.

What you have done is the cyano dies off returning the nutrients and environment back to favor of the fw plants or marine algaes. Then continue so the plants and algae things remain in control.

So to respond to coralbandit Yes you can get cyano in marine systems. And yes it is a bad thing. *old dude

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Ok lets say I have a 15 gal tank, and its has lots of cyano in it. which is true. There is no fish in the tank. So lights have been off of it for 3 weeks, tank was covered for 2 of those 3 weeks, Guess what! cyano still there.

I don't think mold is considered cyano by your description that it needs light. Mold will grow between wall boards where there is no light.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Cyano is really the easiest algae (if you call it that) to get rid of in a FW tank. It mainly comes from low nitrates. Not only does it just wipe off very easily on anything it covers, it also is very easy to treat.

If you go here The Planted Tank - Articles, Forums, Pictures, Links and read through the threads for treating, you can see numerous methods of getting rid of it. A blackout doesn't always work as I have read, maybe since it really isn't algae, but may the majority of the time. 

This is the only algae I would attempt to conduct a blackout with. Green water would be another reason, but a different subject. All other algaes can be controlled by carefully tailoring your light back, it will start to slowly die off, and then you can increase to a point that the algae stays away but your plants are doing well.

Black beard algae (BBA) is not Cyano. I believe info in the link I provided will back that up.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks Bob. I have marine tanks also(along with fw). What I was asking is cyano good , in either fw or marine. My previous post about this was that I had cyano in my Tanganyikan cichlid tank(only fw set up I ever had this). Next always wondering cause and effect , was it , or does higher ph have any thing to do with it.I'm sure fish only marine tanks can get it , but it seems more common with live rock or coral tanks?Pretty funny about when you were young.You did answer no not good. I have cyano on occasion in my 75 reef. I think my tank is stable (no losses ,coral , invert , or fish in last 8 months) . I test regullary and do make water changes. I know how you feel about this , And I'm alright with your approach(it's your tank, and we may all learn something from your strategy that some of us feel is to risky to try ourselves). Most of us want to understand.... well everything , and that's not possible and probably just not meant tobe. It is not lack of understanding , but more a desire to understand that drives us to do what we do.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Ok lets say I have a 15 gal tank, and its has lots of cyano in it. which is true. There is no fish in the tank. So lights have been off of it for 3 weeks, tank was covered for 2 of those 3 weeks, Guess what! cyano still there.
> 
> I don't think mold is considered cyano by your description that it needs light. Mold will grow between wall boards where there is no light.


You didn't do it long enough.

My experience is limited to tanks where there are other forms of plant life. So that may also be a differrence as well.

Betcha some light is getting to your mold.

my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> Thanks Bob. I have marine tanks also(along with fw). What I was asking is cyano good , in either fw or marine. My previous post about this was that I had cyano in my Tanganyikan cichlid tank(only fw set up I ever had this). Next always wondering cause and effect , was it , or does higher ph have any thing to do with it.I'm sure fish only marine tanks can get it , but it seems more common with live rock or coral tanks?Pretty funny about when you were young.You did answer no not good. I have cyano on occasion in my 75 reef. I think my tank is stable (no losses ,coral , invert , or fish in last 8 months) . I test regullary and do make water changes. I know how you feel about this , And I'm alright with your approach(it's your tank, and we may all learn something from your strategy that some of us feel is to risky to try ourselves). Most of us want to understand.... well everything , and that's not possible and probably just not meant tobe. It is not lack of understanding , but more a desire to understand that drives us to do what we do.


Could be I'm just crazy *old dude

It does seem to be more of a concern in reef tanks where nutrients are low.


For example we have a local club member with an awesome reef tank full of sps corals who regularly attencs frag meets and sell frags. Obviously a very advanced hobbists. He got red slime and thought "it can't be as simple as killing the lights. But he did it and in a week the slime was gone. And came back 3 weeks later. So he did it again and two years later the slime had not come back.

sometimes the simplist things are the most effective.

my .02


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Might be a side point but bb algae is usually a result of lack of o2 ? - N


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

> Kill the lights and stop feeding the fish. Usually in a few days but perhaps a couple of weeks at most, the cyano dies off.


I stated, mine was covered for 2 weeks out of 3 and now your telling me it wasn't long enough.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> I stated, mine was covered for 2 weeks out of 3 and now your telling me it wasn't long enough.


Yep

In extreme cases it has taken 3 weeks for me.

The amazing thing is that it cleared up in the last 2-3 days.

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

In my opinion you change what your saying to suit your needs. And it is a bunch a bull.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Not for nothing here, but last time I checked, Cyano was a Bacteria.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

susankat said:


> In my opinion you change what your saying to suit your needs. And it is a bunch a bull.


I totally agree here Susan. If you woudsa said your lights were off for 2 months, he still would have come back saying not long enough.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Yep
> 
> In extreme cases it has taken 3 weeks for me.
> 
> ...


Scew it then, why even put the lights on a tank then?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> I totally agree here Susan. If you woudsa said your lights were off for 2 months, he still would have come back say
> ing not long enough.


So?
Seems like I'm being totally consistant.
Cyrano does die off in darkness.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

beaslbob said:


> So?
> Seems like I'm beiNg totally consistant.
> Cyrano does die off in darkness.


Yes totally consistant with not giving accurate advice, you said one thing then another. And I don't see anyone one saying that cyano will die off and agreeing with you. Reefing Madness said If I kept the light off for 2 months and covered, you would still say it wasn't long enough.

Get your stories straight or don't comment at all.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

And everyone wonders why I bash beasl.......

Still haven't seen the response to BBA. BBA is not cyano, cyano is not algae. This is the type of misinformation I hate. Newbs beware.

A longer than 2wk blackout will likely kill everything including plants. Not everyone keeps the super easy plants you do and some are much more delicate.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Its not so much as the bashing as its derailing other op threads. This is bobs thread giving bad info.

and really not bashing basically correcting his info


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm hicccuping because I drank som beer and ate=N


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Cyanobacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cyanobacteria - August 2006 TFH Planted Tank


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nereus7 said:


> I'm hicccuping because I drank som beer and ate=N


*h/b


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> So?
> Seems like I'm beiNg totally consistant.
> Cyrano does die off in darkness.


YEa, so do plants after a 3 week black out............


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> Cyanobacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Cyanobacteria - August 2006 TFH Planted Tank


thanks for posting references for my original post.*old dude


my .02


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> thanks for posting references for my original post.*old dude
> 
> 
> my .02


Say it with me now B A C T E R I A !. Your original post about light is correct......BUT NOT FOR 3 WEEKS!

If it was the case, then how would you rid a Marine REEF of the same stuff while Dosing? You can't kill the lights for 3 weeks!
*old dude*whip*


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm willing to sound as stupid as I may be. I'm scared to turn the lights off (daddy). "Plants die to after 3 weeks" , what about my corals? The photo whatever they ares?I'll turn my lights off if my corals don't need them. But if they need light I'll turn my protien& uv off to dose REDSLIME anti biotics.I don't like that alot either but my corals will (or have {not proud of it}) lived through it.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

This is what it says using blackouts to get rid of it. And it doesn't always work and can pollute the tank.



> Aquarium black outs are an attempt to kill the cyanobacteria with a lack of light, that will hopefully get rid of it before overly damaging the plants. Basically you turn off the lights and cover the tank, black construction paper is particularly effective. You should be careful when using this method. The dying cyanobacteria are going to pollute your tank. If you have a bad infection that dies off suddenly it can have some pretty catastrophic effects on your tank. Bad bacteria multiply, your tank gets stinky, there's a lack of oxygen, it starts to kill your plants and fish and gets worse until there's not much, if anything left. To prevent this sort of calamity and still use the blackout methods, make sure your filter is working properly and has good flow. Aeration is helpful too, even if you don't usually run an air stone in your tank, this may be a good time to run one at least temporarily. Check your tank regularly and do water changes, daily is not a bad idea if you have a bad infestation. Be sure to vacuum any detritus from the bottom of the tank when doing your water changes.


It also says;



> Traditional methods of dealing with cyanobacteria have been using water changes, black outs, and bacterial medications. Newer methods include increasing CO2 and fertilizers.


And this;



> I believe that usually best first method to deal with any aquarium problem is to step on the water changes. There are some methods that discourage water changes, but in my experience when dealing with multiple tanks, those that get regular water changes are more healthy.


Kind of goes against some of your ideas don't it.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> Say it with me now B A C T E R I A !. Your original post about light is correct......BUT NOT FOR 3 WEEKS!
> 
> If it was the case, then how would you rid a Marine REEF of the same stuff while Dosing? You can't kill the lights for 3 weeks!
> *old dude*whip*


gee actually you're saying bacteria with me. *r2

I have killed the lights in a marine tank that was extremely clouded up after some newly macros went sexual. I had to ve 2 weeks and in the last two days it cleared up. the existing macros did fine, were actually larger and thrived after the event.

usually it only takes a week at the most. but sometimes you have to do it twice. Some reefers do a 3 day monthy blackout also.

my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> This is what it says using blackouts to get rid of it. And it doesn't always work and can pollute the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gee someone disagress with with my ides. Who would have thunk? 

gee dying cyano polutes the tank. yep. Just like fish wastes also.

It is just my experience you kill the lights stop adding food the cyano dies off, the fish and plants (or macros/corals in saltwater) do just fine.

And by adjusting feeding and an occasional second black results in a clear cyano free tank.

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Bob all your doing is making yourself look like a fool as most people don't agree with you and you argue valid points.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'd like real info on 3 day blackout monthly.I don't care if the number is right , I wonder if (disregarding sun {I'm the HIGH lght guy} if following the lunar( not looney{toons}) cycle the lack of light somewhat regulary might not be beneficial.Most everything in the ocean give birth(or whatever) during night , some with certain cycles of the moon. I'm not so scared of turning my lights off for a coupple days maybe. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Or even better and shorter; the wish for a better past. I'd try any new thing if I can be convinced it was good(not always so easy). We are creatures of habit.I'm am intriuged by short black out. I also started last post with not affraid to sound stupid.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

susankat said:


> Bob all your doing is making yourself look like a fool as most people don't agree with you and you argue valid points.


Bob why do you put yourself though this crap man..everything you say on a 2-3 week blackout is totally wrong..even a newbie can figure that out..if you really think corals will last 2 weeks without light you need to send me some of whatever your drinkin cause it has to be some pretty good stuff..you say all this crap and not give one single proof of evidence to justify your cause..hang it up dude its not getting you anywhere.

Rick


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So this thread is about cyano and that you can kill the lights and it goes away? 

What a waste of time! Typical beasl.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Look, it is not likely that any plant will last 2wks (3wks is really pushing it)....even the beginner plants that beasl keeps. About half the plants that I have would melt away. I lost about half of one of my tanks when I took a power hit while on vacation for only 9 days....how I know. Lost Crypts (some), Ludwigias, (both beginner plants) and many others that have higher needs.

There are other methods of getting rid of Cyano without risking your plants. I think that most aquarists never see Cyano in fw tanks.

However, BBA is very common and is NOT Cyano.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Nice back to me. I had cyano in my african cichlid tank(more than once+{not proud}). My ph was rather high (well water then{not now}) and I could have done more water changes.The red slime terament worked good enough (on 180 g) that I still had 1/2 bottle left from back4 years ago to treat my first outbreak in salt.susankat addition of co2 and fertilizer (hopr thats right if not pretend it was) . What else besides anti b could I try. I make reasonable water changes( I also think changing more if possible is best most natural solution). I change 25% weekly plus everyones evap( I'm the one who uses fans{not computer , but box or higher volume air movement}). Should I just change more? My ro/di is unlimited basically(75g daily).Hate turning my skimmer off, but if I don't I already know redslime will not work for me(beast of a protien skimmer{wish it was bigger still}).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have bba in my 180. Its on wood(not my mopani) . It doesn't seem to be progresing at all. Didn't know what it was(not real concerned still) but upon me finding out black brush algae it did say; "in freshwater with highlight would indicate low/to low c02.In fw low light fluctuating co2.Said "over dose flourish" what ever FERTILIZERS! Raise co2 and ferts! Thanks susankat!That's money , not mis info.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Gee someone disagress with with my ides. Who would have thunk?
> 
> gee dying cyano polutes the tank. yep. Just like fish wastes also.
> 
> ...


Man, its tough having a battle of the wits with an unarmed person. They tend to just beat you down to their level and beat you with senseless nonesense. I'm outta this one, you can't convince this guy the sky is blue. He just doesn't get it guys. Good luck with this one....


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Everyone can think what they want. You also can't teach those who don't want to learn. I don't want to beat any one up. If the poop that pollutes and the breakdown that occurs doesn't effect them and it effects me....... sorry , Idon't care about them then. Besides they even think they're ok. No battle to win. Doesn't mean your info is not important.POINT COUNTERPOINT (60 minutes when I was young,Sometimes I wondered how hard it must be to be one with less than well thought out or just bogus points?) Any one want to weigh in on that?I will not sink to anyones level. Character dictates I rise above. To each his own. I like that . (that means they touch mine!)


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I have bba in my 180. Its on wood(not my mopani) . It doesn't seem to be progresing at all. Didn't know what it was(not real concerned still) but upon me finding out black brush algae it did say; "in freshwater with highlight would indicate low/to low c02.In fw low light fluctuating co2.Said "over dose flourish" what ever FERTILIZERS! Raise co2 and ferts! Thanks susankat!That's money , not mis info.


The best you can do is to stop the spread of BBA. If you want to get rid of it you have to use something like Excel. If you have plants I suggest removing the leaves that it covers. I get it on my wood at times and if I don't like it I just scrape it off. You can stop it by controlling the light....a blackout will likely do nothing. Cut your light back and over time it will start to go away. Finding the balance where it stays away can be trial and error but once you get there, you're good.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't have co2 on any of my tanks. Literature(from other sources{sorry can't post links like you reef madness [very helpful, really]}) say co2 is part of the equation. Moreover the lack of. I'll repeat I have live plants/macro in every tank , along with massive sump filterations(looking for help on building bigger still{but I'll start another thread on that}). I want to know if people with running co2 have had a noticeable repreive from cyano. I'm almost ready to co2 all 3 of my systems(tanks to look at but much more to manage{system}).Balance is the key. I need to replicate nature as best I can before I can even think of how to improve it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I want to know if people with running co2 have had a noticeable repreive from cyano.


CO2 or not, I have only seen one tank with a small bit of cyano and that was over 2yrs ago....out of 6 tanks. It started a little on my substrate and I just removed it. Never saw it again.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beasl - can you answer the questions on your thread?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> beasl - can you answer the questions on your thread?


I'm sorry. 

what questions did I miss?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> what questions did I miss?


Your killin me SMALLS!! Killin me!!!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Maybe you skipped a page. If they don't have a "?", sorry. I am sure even you can figure out what it is you need to answer. 

There are a number of points that have been made that counter your discussion. You can't come on here post info that you believe is true, which coincidentally is counter to many references, and then not say anything. All it does to newbies or other that read it is confuse.

I know this is your usual "posting info" method. It can be removed if you can't even respond.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

How can I answer smore if I havn't answered any yet? High five RM good reference - N


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nereus7 said:


> How can I answer smore if I havn't answered any yet? High five RM good reference - N


*r2


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I guess his way of answering questions is with the response (gee someone disagrees with me)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I hope I wasn't passed to bob about co2! Get real .I'm new here,not new. Bob deserves another forum for more adv. keepers than myself. Hell I still wonder if co2 could solve a problem and the guy with no filters could help? Please stop /think.... Check OVERFILTRATION thread. to know where I am at.To quote madness Igot so much going on he's not sure. I can only keep trying more.I am no where near advanced enough to nothing.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

susankat said:


> I guess his way of answering questions is with the response (gee someone disagrees with me)


Na, Na. His way of answering a question is.....Huh, what did I miss?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I hope I wasn't passed to bob about co2! Get real .I'm new here,not new. Bob deserves another forum for more adv. keepers than myself. Hell I still wonder if co2 could solve a problem and the guy with no filters could help? Please stop /think.... Check OVERFILTRATION thread. to know where I am at.To quote madness Igot so much going on he's not sure. I can only keep trying more.I am no where near advanced enough to nothing.


Dude....lay off the caffeine.


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## Unearthed (May 7, 2012)

I really have nothing to say here, but I want to be a part of this epic thread.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Unearthed said:


> I really have nothing to say here, but I want to be a part of this epic thread.


*r2

a part of history.


I feel so relieved that not one poster was able to post a single instance of a single unanswered question.

I guess this thread has hit the basics of cyano at least.

my .02


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## Chandavi (Jun 12, 2012)

I came back and read this thread and now my brain is full of "wat?" and I can't get rid of the feeling. I came away with:

Cyano is bacteria.
Blackouts kill algae.
Blackouts also kill plants if you do them for too long.

All of which I already knew, but now for some reason there is a sort of "mind haze" lingering in my head as well. It is like a bacterial bloom, but in clarity of thought. Am I alone here? *pc


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

dont think your alone..bob knows just enough to hurt people..especially new people in the hobby..its pretty bad when the wife makes him keep his tanks on the porch outside, but he thinks he knows everything and doesnt really know crap..(and thats the kind word for ****) if it wasnt for new people in the hobby listening to him and having their tanks go south without having people that really care about the hobby setting him straight i think most of us would just ignore him

Rick


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> *r2
> 
> a part of history.
> 
> ...


none4none4none4none4
*lurk*lurk


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Bob answer JR's questions on bba being cyano. If you can post links to prove this go for it. But so far you haven't proven anything to what you are saying.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Chandavi said:


> I came back and read this thread and now my brain is full of "wat?" and I can't get rid of the feeling.


Same feeling I get when beasl starts one of his "information" threads in the "Aqaurium world according to beasl."


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Bob answer JR's questions on bba being cyano. If you can post links to prove this go for it. But so far you haven't proven anything to what you are saying.


I must have missed that.

I don't remember JR asking me that but stating BBA is not cyano.

So no question.

JR is entitled to his viewpoint.

I stated cyano he stated algae.

I see no questions unanswered.

my .02


ps

perhaps this one thing called bba that is algae.

And another thing that actually is cyano.

could be we're both right.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I must have missed that.
> 
> I don't remember JR asking me that but stating BBA is not cyano.
> 
> ...


Your refer to it here....


> In FW you have the blue-green slime type algae and black beard algae on the plants...


I assumed you grouped them together as you have said before in chat that you believed BBA was just a form of cyano, which is not true. Also implied since you never mention any other of the 5-6 more types of algae that exist in an aquarium.

Cyano is uncommon as compared to BBA. Many have never seen it. BBA on the other hand I have even seen on the plants that you placed in your 2qt tank you got for xmas, and is very common.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Your refer to it here....
> 
> 
> I assumed you grouped them together as you have said before in chat that you believed BBA was just a form of cyano, which is not true. Also implied since you never mention any other of the 5-6 more types of algae that exist in an aquarium.
> ...


Agreed.

I have also heard that BBA is a problem when nitrates get low. Much like cyano.

I don't have much of a problem with either and both respond the the lights out no feeding. As do other forms of nusiance algaes and cloudy water.

Cyano is a very common problem in marine setups.

my .02


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

Your still not going to tell me that plants or corals for that fact can go for a 2 week blackout and be ok...if you believe that then you have a really wild imagination....also do you think that cyno could be avoided by not using de-chlorinators..

Rick


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

whitetiger61 said:


> Your still not going to tell me that plants or corals for that fact can go for a 2 week blackout and be ok...if you believe that then you have a really wild imagination....also do you think that cyno could be avoided by not using de-chlorinators..
> 
> Rick


well first it doesn't usually take more then a few days. And I have had corals, macro algae, and plants thrive after a 2 -3 week black out no feeding.

But you are correct that it could be detrimental. Which is why it would seem to be important to kill the lights and stop feeding before the problem got so bad it takes that long. 

I also generally just kill the lights as opposed to a complete "warping the tank". I do have to wrap with my porch tank because the only light is the morning sun. But otherwise it is just a killing the light so there is some low ambient light still getting to the tank. 

I don't use dechlorinators and do get occasional cyano, algae, and cloudy water outbreaks. 

.02


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

sorry would have to actually see that to believe it.. macros i know will need the light...or some like calurpra will go bad really fast..fw plants ahhh maybe but doubtful..and corals again maybe..if you keep what i call junk coral..things like texas trash can live through a nucluer explosion so i can see your point there but most reefers dont bother with junk corals..i guess my problem with you is..you think your way is the only way and youtry to bring these new people into your way and thats not the way to bring a new pwerson fresh into the hobby into this hobby..i have nightmares about someone buying a 50.00 coral and jumping on your band wagon and it dying in a couple of weeks.because it will and theres nothing you can say that will convince me otherwise.

Rick


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't use de-chlorinators but have had each.The bba as I said before is on wood(I'll say this again too; not my mopani{the other}) ,but thats where it's been for some time. Cyano in marine receives 100% ro/di.My fw get mixed(tap and ro/di and boo hiss to unecessary chemicals)You can't ,or shouldn't use straight ro/di in fresh. It needs to be cut , have have jars of buffers dumped in.Said it before; they don't list side affects of fish stuff like everybodies pills!Some magnesium supplements for salts (cover eyes if you don't to know) are loaded with ammonia!Seeing as that was low to ;I guess I must need it?Have faith in nature. I also asked with few answers the relationship of low co2 with cyano and bba.Almost got passed to bob!scarry.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

BBA doesn't respond that much to no lights and covering up. I know that for a fact and with plants I wouldn't cover it for 3 weeks or even 2 for that matter.

Dechlorinators are not harmful if used properly. I can understand not using them with ro/di water or if you let your water age to rid of chlorine, But chloramine doesn't dissapate and can and will harm fish by burning the gills and causing irritation. You probably don't notice it as you are usually only replacing about 3% but people who care for their tanks, fish and plants do provide more than what you are doing and it would kill those fish pretty quick if they didn't use dechlor. If you don't use dechlorinator in water changes that the water contains chloramine you are being cruel to your fish. And yes Bob I feel your being cruel to your fish in many ways.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I have also heard that BBA is a problem when nitrates get low. Much like cyano.


Not true. The two don't compare.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

it says on red slime remover (made by ultralife reef products) ,that it " removes red slime quickly from corals and invertebrates". It then gives mixing directions and says "warning ;may effect ph and oxygen levels" ,(I've been wrong before about "no warnings/side effects listed"). If it were to affect oxy levels can I safely assume that means lower.If it lowers oxy and ph would not co2 possibly have same effect.It would on the water chemestry. So now a new question( at least for me) is; does anyone use co2 in marine set up any other way besides calcium re-actor(where I think the co2 "energy" is used up differently).What about attempting to wipe out cyano with co2. What if the net effect of turning off your light( in aplanted ,living ) system is increased co2.Anybody? Slowly administered co2 ,monitoring your ph, make adjustments(with buffer) and leave the lights on .Anybody?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> it says on red slime remover (made by ultralife reef products) ,that it " removes red slime quickly from corals and invertebrates". It then gives mixing directions and says "warning ;may effect ph and oxygen levels" ,(I've been wrong before about "no warnings/side effects listed"). If it were to affect oxy levels can I safely assume that means lower.If it lowers oxy and ph would not co2 possibly have same effect.It would on the water chemestry. So now a new question( at least for me) is; does anyone use co2 in marine set up any other way besides calcium re-actor(where I think the co2 "energy" is used up differently).What about attempting to wipe out cyano with co2. What if the net effect of turning off your light( in aplanted ,living ) system is increased co2.Anybody? Slowly administered co2 ,monitoring your ph, make adjustments(with buffer) and leave the lights on .Anybody?


I did hear of a marine system being maintained with a refugium full of turtle grass. In that system the operator did add plant stakes and co2 to check the effect on the turtle grass. but that was a long time ago.

It is my understanding the cyano thrives in a high co2 environment such at the surface of the substrate and rocks. and also where there is nitrogen gas as well in a low nitrate enviroment. Again at the substrate surface in deep sea bed operations. 

Hence my original observation things are going fine, nitrates finally dropped down then all the sudden here comes the cyano.

my .02


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So then if your right the red slime remover( i think antibiotic) warning is that the product will effect oxygen by increasing it to relieve co2 saturation , thus killing cyano. I don't think thats what the warning implied.I think it lowers oxy.It did lower ph aliitle.Try again.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> So then if your right the red slime remover( i think antibiotic) warning is that the product will effect oxygen by increasing it to relieve co2 saturation , thus killing cyano. I don't think thats what the warning implied.I think it lowers oxy.It did lower ph aliitle.Try again.


I think what happened in co2 increased as the lower pH indicates. 

the slime killer antibiotic is acting on the bacteria itself not the symbiotic plant life in the cyano. The lights out, no food added acts on (kills) the symbiotic plant life starving the bacteria part. 

my .02


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> I think what happened in co2 increased as the lower pH indicates.
> 
> the slime killer antibiotic is acting on the bacteria itself not the symbiotic plant life in the cyano. The lights out, no food added acts on (kills) the symbiotic plant life starving the bacteria part.
> 
> my .02


so now it increased co2 (which in your previous post you said "it's my understanding that cyano likes high co2 enviroment like subtrate.) sometimes it grows on my hydor pump 1inch below surface.Try again?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> so now it increased co2 (which in your previous post you said "it's my understanding that cyano likes high co2 enviroment like subtrate.) sometimes it grows on my hydor pump 1inch below surface.Try again?


Well perhaps high co2 was not absolutely required and just some co2 is required.

But cyano does use co2 for growth.

that does not mean cyano will not show up in areas that appear to have low co2.

It is the availablilty of phosphates with low nitrates, co2, and light the allows the cyano to bloom by using nitrigen gas. *old dude

my .02


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

ok my phos and nitrates are 0.I run bright lights(true lumen pro leds).I don't think any of those are problematic. The lighting could be questioned but I don't think I have to much. As for co2 ; couldn't run a system with out it( I don't add any but it is naturally occuring and necessary part to grow macros and the like), I don't think there is to much, I think there is to little(when level is low cyano excells over macro) and out competes for nutrients(low nutrients have been mentioned).All my tanks have built in overflows with many(at least 4) drip trays .Water falling through open air.I think I have too much oxygen.The red slime remover I believe lowers oxygen.My small(why wait for big) cyano outbreak is falling apart,day 2 after treatment(protien skimmer off).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

just re-readingAlbert Thiel "the marine fish and invert reef aquarium"(1988), and "Advanced reef keeping" 1989,once considered the bible and now almost as old.In it he describes co2 reactor(not calcium) where they use ;bio balls ,plastics,ceramic ,or any type of rock that does not contain carbonates or bi carbonates.It futher goes on to explain the benefits of adding co2 to our systems.Being old and not addressing specific problems it does not address cyano. Does anyone know why we only consider calcium re-actors the proper use of co2 in salts?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

This might possibly help.
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners Part 3: pH by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I read link . Thanks .I understand it's now believed some co2 still makes out of calcium re-actors.But if automated it would reason not much or your ph would be effected.Theil says try for 15-18kh not letting it go beloww 11 to control ph with addition of co2. Thats pretty high kh? Could you keep kh that high (15) with out co2 with out neg. effects? I still think my co2 is low and oxygen high(will have to get test for one of two). Or could bob be right and its all bacterial(I know cyano is a bacteria) . Is the only remedy antibiotics(redslime remover)?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

No, its not the only remedy. And the macro algae I speak of, you need a real sump. Meaing, one the same size as your just under your DT. Growing this kind of Macro definately clear up a tank.
I would not subject my tank to KH that high, just for testing, unless I wanted a tank full of dead coral. And not to go below 11, now thats possible. Keeping it on the 11-12 range, just gotta be diligent with it. And the CO2 thing, I've never talked with anyone who has messed with it in a SW tank. This also affects the ALK that I've read.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I hate to almost agree with bob, but I used to have cyanobacter in a few tanks, and I was able to control it with a week to ten days blackout (yes bob) and massive water changes (no bob). Without the water changes, it persisted and came back in my planted tanks. It seems to crash and vanish at a certain point - it didn't seem to dwindle, it flamed out.

I would not tell you to do a blackout though. It worked in the 140ppm GH 7.4 pH water of my old house, in a basement with no natural light and a really easy blackout regime. I've been able to control some minor appearances in my current 80ppm, pH 6.6 tapwater tanks with water changes alone - as soon as I smell that distinctive eau de cyano perfume, I remove 50 percent of the water and that beats it here.

It won't necessarily beat it there - it's one tough life form.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

could tds be a source of the cyano.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

coralbandit said:


> could tds be a source of the cyano.


*J/D*
Yup


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I use bulk reef supply 6 stage chloramine deuxe RO with dual DI. digital meters tell all;water processed(by gallons,months) for all three stages before tfc.Digital tds in and out on di. Always 0 out.About 8ppmgoes into di after the ro.I change stage 1 every 3000gallons(Total water not end product).The Di gets changed by 2000.Every 2changes to first stage I change first carbon block. I think it's a great filter (no geussing digital meters tell me all).


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Then what the heck you worried about TDS then?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

not worried for me, concerned for all.Cyano has existed since precambrian period(3 billion years{hows that as a measure of success}).I talked to owner of my(chosen) LFS and breifed him on topic and asked questions(sound familiar).I asked if it was likely my tank was oxygen rich /co2 deficent? He said that people try to minimise surface movement and the like to contain(keep) co2.Knowing my tank and filter set up he said ya. You could be super saturated with oxygen through surface movement and drip trays. I read more recent info from Thiel stating more effecient PS with additional oxydisers(ozone/ or potassium permanganate) would help.What is potassium permanganate(I will search) and more over does anyone use this? It's day 3 or 4 aftwr treatment with red slime remover and all gone.Further directions from manufacterer(real men read directions) states;" contains no algecides or erythromycin succinate(is this like "I didn't put vodka in that" when you used rum? My test this am were 0 trates,0 phos,ph was 7.9(low for me)and 8kh (low for me). Cal was good 420.I was not able to find test for 02 or co2 .The product worked and is necessary(for me ) at this point(with out other option), not one I'm 100% comfy with. Not familiar with vodka/vinegar dosing(I have read some, don't do either) but would wonder what the common link is? and why they spur growth? 3 billion years. This one won't be easy, but I will continue on my quest for more natural resolution.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, seems like a lot of discussion about SW on the FW forum, and no, the situations are not the same.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

bob started thread(maybe should have placed otherwise?)Title is "cyano fw and marine". I post. Sorry your bored!


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

coralbandit said:


> bob started thread)Title is "cyano fw and marine". . /QUOTE]
> 
> Yea, gotta agree, Op posted FW and Marine title.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

wish I could say thanks twice! Wait. I will . Thanks. Thanks! Bobs not to blame for this. Positive feed back / or encouragement would be the idea behind this forum, I hope.My mother use to say....


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Never said anyone was to blame....can't you guys solve world hunger on the SW forum? Not that hard to start a thread titled "continued cyano discussions...."


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Never said anyone was to blame....can't you guys solve world hunger on the SW forum? Not that hard to start a thread titled "continued cyano discussions...."


But we like beatin up Bob on the FW side of things.


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