# Cycling questions



## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Hello again everyone, first off I want to thank all of you for the great info on this forum! I have been cycling my new 46gal bow front for a week now and just want to confirm that every thing is going as it should. I set up the tank and filled it with declorinate tap water and let it run for 24 hours so every thing would settle. I took water tests at that point and here is how they looked then. NH3/NH4= 0, NO2=0, NO3=0 PH=8.2-8.4. every thing looked good to me except the PH was too high for the fish I plan to keep so I ordered some Kordon PH down and went on to the next step of adding Ammonia bought at Ace hardware. Well me being a bone head after the first dose of ammonia I made an error doing the Test and "thought" i was only at 1ppm so I added a double dose of ammonia and went to bed. In hindsight its best not to do this late at night so you dont make errors.... The next morning I took a ammonia test and as you all know it was off the charts (8+ppm) so I did a 50% water change and texted again 6ppm this time so did another change and ender up at 4-5 ppm. I turned the heater up to 82deg and sat back and ignored the tank for 3 days. After the 72 hours I did a ammonia test and still 4ppm which I figured was pretty normal. Well now its been 7 days since that first dose of ammonia and still 4ppm and Im wondering if I messed it up when I overdosed it from the start? On about day 5 the water kinda started to get a little cloudy, not bad but you could notice it wasnt as clear as before. Back to the PH now, on day 5 I got my order from Ken's Fish so I installed my 2nd filter and added some PH down to try to get it some where close to 7.5 (would this affect the cycle?) So at the end of this long story I quess my question is is every thing going as it should or should I be getting worried? Thanks again!


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Here is a picture and I can take more if you guys and gals need me to.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

I have another question for you, I have a Aquaclear 110 & Emperor 280 So I wont be lacking for filtration but what should I use for media in the extra cartridge in the Emperor or do I even need it at this point? Thanks!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Are you on well water? I would be interested if your ph has returned back to its original value. If it does , and usually it does if you have ample buffers in your water, it will be a very good example of why you should not use these products.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

You should be adding ammonia everyday until you get nitrites http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html good reading any more questions just ask.
As far as chemicals to adjust ph, it is very hard to continually adjust these levels consistently. You are better off to use a natural ph adjuster like driftwood or leaves or peat. I use ro water and Indian Almond Leaves.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

jrman83, what products are you saying I shouldn't use? I have rural water it is treated much like a cite water supply would be. Yes, the PH has come back up and I'm not sure how to keep it down at about 7.5. 

dalfed, Am I suposed to add ammonia every day even if the level is at 4ppm? I didnt think i was suposed to add more till it starts to go away. I thought you just added ammonia to keep it at 4ppm maybe im doing it all wrong?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Fireman6982 said:


> jrman83, what products are you saying I shouldn't use? I have rural water it is treated much like a cite water supply would be. Yes, the PH has come back up and I'm not sure how to keep it down at about 7.5.
> 
> dalfed, Am I suposed to add ammonia every day even if the level is at 4ppm? I didnt think i was suposed to add more till it starts to go away. I thought you just added ammonia to keep it at 4ppm maybe im doing it all wrong?


That is exactly what I think Jrman was saying, that the hardness of your water will counteract the ph down causing ph fluctuations which are worse then high stable ph. I am also on very hard water and use R/O and almond leaves to bring my ph down.

Yes you add the same amount every day until you are reading nitrites, do not even bother checking ammonia levels after the first day.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

so how high will the ammonia levels get before you start to see nitrites?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Fireman6982 said:


> so how high will the ammonia levels get before you start to see nitrites?


? never tested but they will definitely be off the charts.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Ok, I have been going for 14 days now and still no sign of nitrite. should I be getting worried or just need to relax and wait it out? Thanks!


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## vreugy (May 1, 2013)

It will happen if you listen to the others on here. Just set back and enjoy your lovely tank and imagine what it will look like with fish. Sort of meditate while watching it. Very soothing.

have a blessed day


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

What is your tank temp at? I was told to set it to 83-85 to speed things along. I'm 3 days into my fishless cycle. I did check my ammonia just out of curiosity and have been adding everyday. My vial is not even green anymore. Lol. It's like a blue tint. Levels are sky high but I'm not worried about it. Just wanted to see it since with regular cycled tanks you don't (hopefully) ever see those levels.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Temp is up around 82 do you think I need to go higher?


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Eh. I have mine at 85 but it's not digital so I just cranked it and decreased it til I got it close. Not sure how much a few degrees difference would make but I'm fishless cycling for the first time too so can't really say


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Temp doesn't really matter much and a few degrees one way or the other isn't going to change anything.

Just hang in there. Have you been doing daily doses?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Jrman83, yes I have been dosing every day now.... I wasn't doing that for about the first week.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That may be why it is taking a tad longer.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I might be wrong here - but isn't there a point where ammonia levels get so high they kill off the bacteria, i.e. stalling the cycle?

I wouldn't do daily doses, I would dose and test, dose and test, etc. until you maintain between 1ppm and 5 ppm of ammonia.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I think you have confused the OP about dosing every day on the ammonia, nobody specified that you should be dosing the tank back up to 4PPM ammonia, not dosing the full amount of ammonia every day. I think dosing back up every day is a little much... When I run a fishless cycle, I dose the full amount of ammonia, and wait for about 2-3 weeks, while testing the ammonia once a week.

Mike, 

If you are testing the ammonia and it is off of the charts, I would do a 50-70% WC and test again for ammonia, keep doing WCs until you get a good reading for the ammonia. 
I also agree that using pH additives wouldn't be a good idea. If you plan to buy your fish locally/captive bred, I don't think you have much to worry about. a stable pH is much more important than having the correct pH level for the species that you hope to keep. I use Indian almond leaves and driftwood to help lower the pH in my Sa/CA tanks.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I have to weigh in here because I just got done cycling
My 20 gal. Read the updated fishless cycle thread. I followed it to a T, but I added a large bottle of tetra safe start at the very beginning. I dosed up to 4ppm the first day, then dosed the same amount it took to get there EVERY DAY for 5 days. On the fifth day I had nitrites off the chart. Up to this point my ammonia was also off the charts. On the day I noticed nitrates, I half dosed and then waited 4 days and did NOTHING. By the 4th day everything was processed to zero and my nitrates were sky high, around 80ppm. I dosed a 1/2 dose to check the system, and within 12 hrs it was processed. So, my tank cycled in 7 days. 

I suggest you follow the instructions in the cycle thread.

Just my 2 cents


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

MriGuy85 said:


> I dosed up to 4ppm the first day, then dosed the same amount it took to get there EVERY DAY for 5 days...Up to this point my ammonia was also off the charts.


This doesn't make sense....ammonia dosed to achieve 4 ppm ammonia every day, but by day 5 the ammonia was off the charts?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> This doesn't make sense....ammonia dosed to achieve 4 ppm ammonia every day, but by day 5 the ammonia was off the charts?


That is how it is done according the fishless cycle sticky!You find how much ammonia is needed to get to 4ppm and add that much EVERYDAY until nitrites show.Then you cut back to 1/2 that dose every 4 days.
The proof would be as they say"in the pudding" as MriGuy cycled very quickly.I do also think he may have found the perfect application of TSS where it may actually be beneficial and still not risk fish! Way to go Mri!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Alright, I can see the logic there then. Sorry for the mix-up.

My question is, however, let's say that there's 20ppm+ of ammonia in the tank - wouldn't that end up killing off the bacteria colonies instead of feeding them? i.e., if I stick my hand in a bowl of bleach, even diluted bleach, wouldn't it hurt me?

Then again, I might be deluding myself - I am not a bacterium. I figured, however, that elevated ammonia levels can be just as hostile to bacteria if it's hostile to fish and humans.

My interwebz research has yet to yield anything about hostile ammonia levels for nitrifying bacteria, so I'm probably wrong. If that's the case, then, why is Mike's excessive ammonia not yielding results?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Every tank(and our water) is different.One must consider when doing a fishless cycle that there is no bacteria to kill(it's a new set up)The first colony of bacteria to grow convert ammonia to nitrite,so it would make sense (to me) that the more ammonia the more food for bacteria.The second set of bacteria convert nitrite to nitrates and possibly(just geussing) too much ammonia could have negative effects on them,but that would enforce the method of only adding 1/2 of original dose once nitrites are detected.The lesser amount of ammonia is needed to feed #1 bacteria and supply nitirtes so #2 bacteria can feed on nitrites and produce nitrates.
IMO using less ammonia would stall the cycle as you would be starving the bacteria you are trying to create,and why cycling fish in takes so much longer and only grows the bacteria necessary for the intial stocking(which is usaully low).
And no testing of ammonia is necessary after the first dose where you try to get to 4ppm,only nitrite testing on fourth day or so is needed until you detect the nitrites.
I really do think MriGuy got super fast results from adding the TSS to the mix.If it is what it is supposed to be he introduced some amount of bacteria and fed it to grow quickly!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Gizmo said:


> My question is, however, let's say that there's 20ppm+ of ammonia in the tank - wouldn't that end up killing off the bacteria colonies instead of feeding them? i.e., if I stick my hand in a bowl of bleach, even diluted bleach, wouldn't it hurt me?


So what you are really asking then is if my fish load is too high will it kill off the bacteria rather than create more? Isn't the fish load in a new aquarium all ammonia?

You guys are the one confusing the OP, which by the way asked the question nearly a week ago, 

YES, dose the same amount everyday. The same amount that took you to get to 4ppm on the first day. STOP testing for ammonia...guess what, it is going to be high. Start testing for nitrites around the 4-5 day. Once they are detected lower the dose by 50% and only dose every 4 days. Do this until ammonia and nitrites are at 0ppm. THIS IS THE ENTIRE FISHLESS METHOD.

Simple enough. So simple that if you overthink it you will stall it.

FWIW, I cycled 2 tanks using this method, actually 3. The last two I stuck to a different dose method than the 1st. One was done in 10days and the other 7days. Both were 20g tanks. I did not use TSS.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Ben - high bioload with established colonies of bacteria to handle that ammonia wouldn't be a problem, I agree with you there.

However, in a tank that doesn't have an established colony and elevated ammonia levels, wouldn't one reach a point where the ammonia levels are too high to sustain any life?

I mean, we use ammonia to disinfect things. Wouldn't it nuke bacteria in that case?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Question: Will The Good Bacteria Die At High Ammonia Levels? - Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle - 97638
Ammonia can kill nitrifying bacteria? [Archive] - Aquaria Central


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

Why does the ammonia have to be so high that it will be off of the charts? As long as ammonia is present to feed the bacteria that consumes it(to keep the cycle going), and you add enough ammonia to keep that specific bacteria going through the end of the cycle(after all of the original ammonia has been consumed and turned into Nitrites). 

It seems to me that having ammonia off of the charts wouldn't be something desirable. Every other sticky and article that I have read online says only to try to keep the ammonia level at 4-5PPM Ammonia. Anything above 8PPM of ammonia WILL inhibit the growth of the Nitrifying bacteria. maybe not kill it, but will def. stall it. 

We joined in on the thread a little late because the OP asked us to take a look at it. Keep in mind I have fishless cycled 3-4 tanks the way that I do it without any problems...


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

"The beneficial bacteria may not die off but the beneficial bacteria may not be able to over come the high levels, therefor the high levels need to be reduced via water changes so that the beneficial bacteria can do what it needs to do which is cycle the tank."


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The places you searched this from doesn't give a value. Maybe something like that is true for 80, 100, 150ppm. Ammonia _*creates*_ the bacteria. How is it killing what is causing it to be created in the first place? In my mind that would not be possible.

NOBODY is saying that it HAS to be this way or that way. You guys that don't believe - do it your way! The way I mention has worked for more and usually is done in less than 10days. How many fishless cycles do you see with this add and wait method that end up waiting 4-6wks anyway? I remember one that took 6wks. The greatest part about doing a fishless is driving things high to force it to occur faster...NOT sit around and wait just like you do for a fish-in cycle.

If all you want to search for is not backed up by actual experience and most of the crap on the internet is not...I am telling you my results. How do you explain them? How do you explain MriGuy?


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

Actually ammonia does not create the bacteria. the bacteria is everywhere in our world, including the air. the ammonia just feeds the colony.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Ben - it's not made up. It's based on a scientific study. Here's the paper:
Burrell et al 2001, which can be found at: Library & Presentations | DrTim's Aquatics


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Manafel said:


> Why does the ammonia have to be so high that it will be off of the charts? As long as ammonia is present to feed the bacteria that consumes it(to keep the cycle going), and you add enough ammonia to keep that specific bacteria going through the end of the cycle(after all of the original ammonia has been consumed and turned into Nitrites).
> 
> It seems to me that having ammonia off of the charts wouldn't be something desirable. Every other sticky and article that I have read online says only to try to keep the ammonia level at 4-5PPM Ammonia. Anything above 8PPM of ammonia WILL inhibit the growth of the Nitrifying bacteria. maybe not kill it, but will def. stall it.
> 
> We joined in on the thread a little late because the OP asked us to take a look at it. Keep in mind I have fishless cycled 3-4 tanks the way that I do it without any problems...


Again, if you just go by things that you read and most of those things are not based on experience, then you end up with the thought you have. I can tell you that without a doubt your value that you believe of 8ppm is absolutely wrong!

Nobody is saying that you did your tank wrong. If it cycled, how could it be wrong? If I have cycled just as many tanks my way and have had no problems, why is my way wrong? Mine cycled in less than 10days. I know the dose and wait method does nothing like that. More like 2-4wks best case...much more in many others.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Again, if you just go by things that you read and most of those things are not based on experience, then you end up with the thought you have. I can tell you that without a doubt your value that you believe of 8ppm is absolutely wrong!
> 
> Nobody is saying that you did your tank wrong. If it cycled, how could it be wrong? If I have cycled just as many tanks my way and have had no problems, why is my way wrong? Mine cycled in less than 10days? I know the dose and wait methid does nothing like that. More like 2-4wks best case...much more in many others.


And I'm not saying that your method is wrong either. Some things work for others that don't work for some. It's all a matter of personal preference until you get down to the scientific facts. Either way, the OP will get a cycled tank, it's just a matter of how long it will take.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm checking out. No sense in arguing a point that none of us know the true answer to. To each their own, may no fish be harmed in the process.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Gizmo said:


> I'm checking out. No sense in arguing a point that none of us know the true answer to. To each their own, may no fish be harmed in the process.


You guys were the ones saying the other method was wrong, despite proof to the contrary. When actually no method is wrong, but if you don't want to be waiting around nearly as long as a fish-in cycle before your tank is finished, there is the method of dosing everyday.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

hello again every one, sorry to bring this up again because it seems to be a very heated subject but i am now on day 25 of a fishless cycle and I still dont see any signs of Nitrites. My ammonina levels are well over 16ppm and my temp is set at 85. do i just stay the course or have I done some thing fatally wrong and need to start over? Thanks


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Fireman, you haven't changed any of the water have you?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

nope, some people here told me to change it till i was down to 4ppm but I havent done it yet.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I was going to say "good", but that might actually be your problem. The initial ammonia may have been to high. As stated earlier, I recently cycled my 20g in only 7 days. I followed the steps precisely, but I added some tetra safe start after bringing the tank up to 4ppm. I don't want to say "start over", but you would think you would sart to see nitrites by now. On one hand, starting over could be a bad thing because who knows, you might see nitrites tomorrow...on the other hand, it's already been over three weeks and you should be nearing conetion by now. Hard decision to make. 

I will say this: if you start over, dont be using things like ph adjusters or anything except what's needed for the cycle. 

What size is your tank?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

the tank is a 46gal bow front and the only thing I am useing to ajust ph now is driftwood and almond leaves. The PH seems to have stableized but its still around 8.2


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Has that driftwood already been sterilized? Usually it needs to be boiled or soaked for long periods before using in a tank. If not, something in the wood could be causing a stall. Unless your planned stock REQUIRES a specific ph, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I live in AZ and have very hard water and my ph is around 8 as well but all of my stock don't mind it. A lot of fish can acclimate to a wide range of values.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

I did boil the driftwood and I have learned that the fish i plan to keep will adjust to the PH pretty well so im not nearly as worried about that any more


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I think the decision of whether or not you should start over lies with you, then. If it were me, I probably would. If you remember exactly the dose it took for you to get to 4ppm ammonia, I would do that and as I said before, I used a large bottle of TSS poured directly into the filter.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I am no cycling expert but I wouldn't start over.If all you ever detect is ammonia and no nitrites I would be adding more ammonia until I saw nitrites.
Many things can effect the bacteria.Both kinds want slightly different parameters,but it is obvious they get by with our water however it is.
It is possible lack of O2 and the high pH may be slowing this all.I also don't remember if you said you used any pH buffers but they don't help while cycling.
This is a link dalfed gave us on the notrogen cycle.If it is boaring then skip to the pH part,but it is a good read.
this is the whole thread but hit his link in permalink #1
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/nitrogen-cycle-43369.html


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

A quick add on (did math) says that after 25 days of adding the same dose to get you to 4ppm ,to me should mean you would have ammonia of around 100ppm if nitrites aren't converting it.Even being able to get a reading,as it has been said many times ,"you should be off the charts" by now!Keep adding ammonia!Just my take on this,but with ammonia of only 16ppm sounds like you are on day 4 to me(4x4=16)


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

My API master kit only gives readings up to 8ppm, so all I know when I tested just before seeing nitrites is that my color was turquoise/blue. It was so high that green wasn't an option anymore. Hahaha. I think you're right though, tom. something doesn't add up as far as your dosing is concerned. He did mention overdosing but that be hadn't changed water to reduce to 4ppm. Not sure what to make of that as far as the cycle is concerned.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So you have been adding the same amount of ammonia every day (all 25 days)? What amount have you dosed everyday? Your daily dose amount is the same amount that took you to initially get to 4ppm? Tank is filtered and there is flow in the tank? Surface movement?

What ammonia are you using? Are there surfectants?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Many fear "stalling the cycle" or even killing bacteria with such high levels,but you have no bacteria to kill(you're trying to generate it) and as for stalled,well your there and I think your light on ammonia not heavy!


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## jim532 (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm probably the furthest you could get from being a cycling expert, but have you tested your water for chlorine/chloramine? Chlorine in the water would kill a bacteria colony or prevent one from forming. 
Maybe this could be a part of the problem?


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

jim532 said:


> I'm probably the furthest you could get from being a cycling expert, but have you tested your water for chlorine/chloramine? Chlorine in the water would kill a bacteria colony or prevent one from forming.
> Maybe this could be a part of the problem?


Doesn't chlorine have a short life in municipal water supplies? Even if Jesus make a mistake like this, wouldn't it be gone after a few days, let alone 25?

This is a true question, since I don't know the answer


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Chlorine does evap,but chloramine does not.Ironically enough the difference between the two is chloramine has ammonia bonded to the chlorine which prolongs it's life.A check on the web of your municipal water supplier should tell you how water is treated and give 2x a year test results!
So now I wonder if you dosed chlorinated water with ammonia if it would evaporate or not?More searching and learning needed!
Chloramine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Have you tested for nitrAtes?


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## Fishtail76 (Oct 17, 2013)

I went back and read the op, you overdosed the first time you added ammonia and then did two 50% percent water changes to get it to 4-5ppm. If this is correct you should be dosing 75% less than your original dose. You can correct me if my math is wrong but that's what I'm wondering. Did you reduce your daily dosing my 75%?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I guess we will just have to wait on the answers.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

ok guys sorry im back, i didnt mean my ammoina level is at 16ppm what i said was its atleast that much but how high it is over that i have no way of knowing. yes, i did over dose at first but then made the adjustments to get to 4ppm which is 1tbs of 10% pure ammonia from ACE Hardware like suggested here on the forum. no i have not tested for nitrate because if i understand the cycle right i wont have any nitrate till i have nitrites. I used Prime when i filled the tank so i dont think i have any chlorine but i dont have a kit that tests for chlorine. here is a link to my water supplier..... http://redrockruralwater.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Consumer-Confidence-2011.pdf I think i answered all the questions but if not ask away.... Thanks everyone!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So you have been adding the same amount of ammonia every day (all 25 days)? Your daily dose amount is the same amount that took you to initially get to 4ppm? Tank is filtered and there is flow in the tank? Surface movement?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

yes, i have a aquaclear 110 and a marineland emperor 280 they both move a ton of water. I have a tetra 60 air pump going thru a 48" flexable airstone so should have a ton of O2. In the tread above it says that I did not dose everyday for the first few days but have been since.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

On the ATM colony site it says the BB reproduce best at a PH of 7.4 to 8.0 so would mine be going slow because of my higher PH?


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Dude, don't mess with your ph. Leave it alone.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

I didnt say i was going to mess with it I asked if that would be slowing it down.


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## Trout hunter (Jan 27, 2014)

Fireman6982 said:


> On the ATM colony site it says the BB reproduce best at a PH of 7.4 to 8.0 so would mine be going slow because of my higher PH?


For what it's worth, I think my ph is around 8.2 (I just posted a thread about my apparent inability to test things right) and my tank cycled completely in about three weeks. I added a bunch of that bacteria in a bottle stuff when I started it, and it took hold and just started cycling right away. So, I don't think Ph is your problem.

Keep in mind I'm a total Noob, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks Trout hunter, Thats very useful info to know. Im finding that the BB do reproduce slower above 8.0 PH but they will still grow..... glad to hear yours went well.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

I'll chime in to what Trout hunter says (we share a tank). Note that we have a FISH IN cycle. At day 12 (today) we've got 0 NH3, 0 NO2, 10 NO3, and a pH of 8.2. We used the bacteria in a bottle, like he said, dechlorinated our water, and tossed in 8 guppies to our 55 G tank.

Note that we were super confused as to our pH as well. It started from the tap at 7.0, then steadily climbed in the tank, to stabilize at 8.2. After reading some excellent advice here, we drew a cup of tap water, and let it sit for 48 hours. The pH in the cup rose steadily, as it turns out that our well water is softened by the city with CO2. Softening drives pH down. Once the CO2 diffuses, pH rises and steadies at whatever is normal for your area.

So yeah, don't mess with your pH. Let everything else stabilize before you futz with pH. The bacteria are just like your fish; they prefer stability over wild swings, and can learn to grow in almost anything (I've got a degree in Biotechnology and have worked extensively with bacteria).


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

In AZ, we have very hard water and the ph is high as well. When I cycled my 20 gal (which ended up taking me only 7 days) the ph was near 8. So I think the ph affecting the growth of BB may not have as much of an effect as some may think. Every tank cycles differently and at different rates.


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## Trout hunter (Jan 27, 2014)

Oryx said:


> I'll chime in to what Trout hunter says (we share a tank). Note that we have a FISH IN cycle. At day 12 (today) we've got 0 NH4, 0 NO2, 10 NO3, and a pH of 8.2. We used the bacteria in a bottle, like he said, dechlorinated our water, and tossed in 8 guppies to our 55 G tank.
> 
> Note that we were super confused as to our pH as well. It started from the tap at 7.0, then steadily climbed in the tank, to stabilize at 8.2. After reading some excellent advice here, we drew a cup of tap water, and let it sit for 48 hours. The pH in the cup rose steadily, as it turns out that our well water is softened by the city with CO2. Softening drives pH down. Once the CO2 diffuses, pH rises and steadies at whatever is normal for your area.
> 
> So yeah, don't mess with your pH. Let everything else stabilize before you futz with pH. The bacteria are just like your fish; they prefer stability over wild swings, and can learn to grow in almost anything (I've got a degree in Biotechnology and have worked extensively with bacteria).


lol - my wife has extensive experience with bacteria. I feel like that might explain something about why she fell for me. 


But yeah - I think we have our Ph problem sorted out with the tap water test. I've had a big mug of tapwater sitting on my desk for a couple days and like she said, the Ph went up as the CO2 gassed of and it's holding at 8.2 now. I managed not to absent-mindedly drink the water while I was working, so I deserve some kudos there.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I know it will not help(probly) but I would test for nitrates.There probly won't be any(like nitrites) ,BUT I have seen many people cycle on this forum and never detect any nitrites,they go right from ammonia to nitrates.
I do think your ammonia would be lower,but who knows.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Dumb question for Fireman (OP): Are your filter/air pumps running? The ammonia nitrification process requires oxygen plenty of oxygen. Also, and this might be a total newbie question: Why don't people add Nitrosomonas and Nitrosospirae (the "beneficial bacteria") to fishless cycling tanks? It doesn't make sense to expect your tanks to autopopulate. I'm assuming the lids are on, right? So how is the bacteria supposed to get there? It's like expecting your bread to magically rise without adding yeast (also a microorganism!). It just won't happen.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes, both filters and the air pump are running and I did add a bottle of tetra safestart plus at the beginning. No nitrites again this morning.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> Dumb question for Fireman (OP): Are your filter/air pumps running? The ammonia nitrification process requires oxygen plenty of oxygen. Also, and this might be a total newbie question: Why don't people add Nitrosomonas and Nitrosospirae (the "beneficial bacteria") to fishless cycling tanks? It doesn't make sense to expect your tanks to autopopulate. I'm assuming the lids are on, right? So how is the bacteria supposed to get there? It's like expecting your bread to magically rise without adding yeast (also a microorganism!). It just won't happen.


Not sure what you mean. The bacteria absolutely will "autopopulate". It's the process of Nature...not just in an aquarium. And as far as what you are talking about, adding the bacteria, these don't exist except in an established aquarium. There is NO bottle that magically has these things. If you believe there is such a thing...I have some waterfront property to sell you


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> these don't exist except in an established aquarium. There is NO bottle that magically has these things. If you believe there is such a thing...I have some waterfront property to sell you


I completely disagree. These two quotes show that both Nitrosomonas and Nitrosospira are widely abundant in the wild. Even so, with tap water and a closed system (tank lid on), you are going to have a much slower cycle than with the lid off, and bacteria added, simply because the bacteria don't stand much of a chance of actually making it into your tank water. Like I said earlier, you can certainly make bread using wild yeast in the air, but it's going to take a heck of a lot longer than it would if you just added a teaspoon of yeast to the mix. 



> Nitrosomonas are useful in treatment of industrial and sewage waste and in the process of bioremediation. They are important in the nitrogen cycle by increasing the availability of nitrogen to plants while limiting carbon dioxide fixation. *The genus is found in soil, sewage, freshwater, and on building surfaces, especially in polluted areas that contains high levels of nitrogen compounds.*


 Nitrosomonas



> Application of specific PCR ... revealed a high genetic diversity within the ammonia oxidizers of the β subclass of Proteobacteria and a wide distribution of* Nitrosospira-like sequences in natural samples like lake water, sediments, or soils.* On the other hand, ... in ammonium-rich systems like *activated sludge or biofilm reactors*, the dominant ammonia oxidizers were members of the genus Nitrosomonas.


Identification and Activities In Situ of Nitrosospira and Nitrospira spp. as Dominant Populations in a Nitrifying Fluidized Bed Reactor


Regarding "magic in a bottle", e.g. bottled bacteria: all bacteria have a defense mechanism by which they can either shut down their metabolic systems, or create spores, which then remain dormant until proper external conditions are met, whereupon the spores "regenerate", for lack of a better word. This handy adaptation makes mass production, storage, and shipping of many bacterial strains very easy, including products like SafeStart or the like.

This quote describes the dormant state of Nitrosomonas.



> Unlike many bacterial species, Nitrosomonas do not have the ability to produce spores. Many bacterial species are capable of producing dormant spores which are resistant to adverse environmental conditions.
> 
> When starved of ammonia, under certain conditions, the vegetative Nitrosomonas cell is capable of becoming dormant and surviving in this state without ammonia, its only food and source of energy, for years.


Nitrosomonas preservation and reactivation for aquaria

As far as ordering bacteria goes, you certainly can order nearly anything you want, with the exception of potential pathogens, which can be bought, but not over the internet (cholera bacteria, e.g.) Check out this site for ordering bacteria: ATCC Bacterial Products


Bacteria can be bought in liquid cultures, which are most often frozen and delivered on ice packs, in pellet form, which are then rehydrated, or in macrocultures, like yogurt. Hope this helps.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There is a big difference between cover and "sealed". I never contested what you said on that...it won't make much of a diff, if at all, in how fast a tank cycles, regardless. If you have proof of some big difference between covered or not by experience and not some googled reference, please state. How is it that the bacteria would not get into the tank?

You can search all areas that you want on the internet as far as bacteria goes...why don't you state what you have done, since you apparently have a much broader experience base than most of us on here? If you have experience with anything you posted, please tell us about it.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Oryx said:


> I'll chime in to what Trout hunter says (we share a tank). Note that we have a FISH IN cycle. At day 12 (today) we've got 0 NH3, 0 NO2, 10 NO3, and a pH of 8.2. We used the bacteria in a bottle, like he said, dechlorinated our water, and tossed in 8 guppies to our 55 G tank.


We were actually stable at Day 6 but have not introduced more fish yet, as we have been researching different species for our hard/high pH water.

If you really want my bacterial credentials, I'm happy to oblige. My last experiment in the lab involved transforming "regular" E. coli into amoxicillin-resistant, glow-in-the-dark freaks by inserting DNA from different strains of bacteria using the Polymerase Chain Reaction method, and then mass-producing the new strain in a bioreactor. I have a degree in Biotechnology, which involves genetic design and alteration ("mutation") of naturally occurring bacteria into productive species. I have studied biology, microbiology, chemistry, organic chemistry, molecular and cellular biology, tissue cell culture, DNA extraction and replication, and various lab-based "stuff". My keystone project for my degree was designed around detecting Infectious Salmon Anemia Virus in wild-caught populations of Oncorhynchus tshawytscha ("King Salmon") via the Western Blot method, using isolated antibodies of the virus itself. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA.

So yeah, I'm new to aquariums, but not bacteria. I'm really enjoying researching my new friends, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira, and Nitrospira.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Again, all of your info is great to include your credentials (which I never asked for), but you don't seem to relay how to get it all down to the usable level or describe the practical use for an aquarium, so it doesn't really translate too well - certainly not for someone trying to get through a cycle without losing fish. The site you posted a link to even with bacteria for sale...if they have the required bacteria needed for a tank, why isn't everyone buying that stuff? They would make a mint as it would be a cycled tank in a bottle! Why didn't you buy it yourself?


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Because I bought the Tetra SafeStart Plus. The site that I linked was merely an example of bacteria for sale. It's scientific grade bacteria, which means that it has very specific DNA strains. Normal old aquariums definitely don't need that!



> You can search all areas that you want on the internet as far as bacteria goes...why don't you state what you have done, since you apparently have a much broader experience base than most of us on here?


I assumed that "what you have done" is a request for cred. My mistake.

As far as trying to get through a cycle without losing fish - what? We haven't lost any. Granted, we bought cheapo guppies as starters, so that we wouldn't have to buy and add ammonia. But still.

We seem to be having a basic disconnect of communication here.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> Because I bought the Tetra SafeStart Plus. The site that I linked was merely an example of bacteria for sale. It's scientific grade bacteria, which means that it has very specific DNA strains. Normal old aquariums definitely don't need that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was referring to aquariums on what you had done, the same as everything else I said. It is after all, an aquarium site. I never said anyone had lost fish, just referring to the average newbie trying to get through a cycle without losing a fish.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Was referring to aquariums on what you had done, the same as everything else I said. It is after all, an aquarium site. I never said anyone had lost fish, just referring to the average newbie trying to get through a cycle without losing a fish.


No. You were claiming that bottled bacteria can't be bought, and that it's "magic in a bottle" and that if I believed that, that you have a bridge to sell me. I was pointing out that bacteria CAN be found elsewhere (I believe you said that they don't exist outside of a cycled aquarium) and they CAN be bottled and used, and in fact, that bacterial cultures can be bought and sold in many different ways. 

I have twice now stated exactly how we cycled our aquarium, and as we are newbies, we followed what we believed to be the simplest method. Instant bacteria plus instant ammonia-producing fish equals a rapidly cycled tank.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Hey, minus the added fish, I used TSS and fishless cycled my tank in 7 days start to finish. I agree that the stuff is useful and I think it helps speed things along.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> No. You were claiming that bottled bacteria can't be bought, and that it's "magic in a bottle" and that if I believed that, that you have a bridge to sell me. I was pointing out that bacteria CAN be found elsewhere (I believe you said that they don't exist outside of a cycled aquarium) and they CAN be bottled and used, and in fact, that bacterial cultures can be bought and sold in many different ways. _*But then as I said...has no practical use in an aquarium? Why then post about it? Why would I refer to anything that has nothing to do with an aquarium...why would you? *_
> 
> I have twice now stated exactly how we cycled our aquarium, and as we are newbies, we followed what we believed to be the simplest method. Instant bacteria plus instant ammonia-producing fish equals a rapidly cycled tank. *If you believe that the bottle of fish oil you bought cycled your tank, then okay. I am saying you lack the experience to know if that stuff works or not. Try googling reviews since you like to search for stuff on the internet.*


You keep mixing things up I think.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

How does having basic knowledge of beneficial bacteria in my tank have nothing to do with aquariums? These bacteria are life forms in their own right, and have their own specific needs. Might as well learn all I can, right? I did not buy "fish oil". I bought a $12 bottle of dormant bacteria.

Apologies to Fireman for derailing your thread.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

MriGuy85 said:


> Hey, minus the added fish, I used TSS and fishless cycled my tank in 7 days start to finish. I agree that the stuff is useful and I think it helps speed things along.


I won't argue one way or the other, but if I have done the same thing you have without it, how much do you really believe it helped you? Only thing we know for sure is it didn't _hurt_ you. You would still be trying to cycle your tank had you not used the fishless method in the way that you did it. The TSS didn't pull you through that.

Absolutely nobody has tested proof the stuff works. Find ANY experiment that has been done I would be very surprised. The site that sells it, offers none.

Maybe bacteria dude can take a bottle into a lab and test?

Check reviews of the product. Very few do what you did and add at the beginning. Most add toward the end of their cycle, the tank finishes the cycle in the next couple of days, and then they swear it had to be the bottle of juice.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> How does having basic knowledge of beneficial bacteria in my tank have nothing to do with aquariums? These bacteria are life forms in their own right, and have their own specific needs. Might as well learn all I can, right? I did not buy "fish oil". I bought a $12 bottle of dormant bacteria.
> 
> Apologies to Fireman for derailing your thread.


See what I mean by mixing things up.

I said that all of the stuff you posted had nothing to do with utilizing any of it in an aquarium and therefore what you posted was useless, it was more about telling me what you knew about bacteria. Which when it all came down to it, despite you knowing all these places to buy bacteria, you still paid $12 for something that you believe it is what it says it is. That is what we used to be called fish oil or snake oil - it cured all that ailed ya.

If you guys want to say that it worked for you, fine. I'm saying you have no real proof. With all of your combined experience with the product, who am I to say different? Right?

So this bacteria can go dormant? what does that mean exactly since you say they are life forms?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

No need to apologize Oryx, To be honest Im enjoying the show!! haha


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm seriously tempted to set up a controlled experiment.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Please do, would you use the stuff from ATM its called "colony" I have a bottle on the way and sure hope snake oil or not that it helps. nothing else seems to be doing what its suposed to for me.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

I have to convince Trout Hunter that we need another tank (small, of course!) but yes, if I do a run, I'll test the different products available. Would be a learning experience, for sure!


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## Trout hunter (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm ok with more tanks. Oryx, with her background is more excited by the danged bacteria than she is the fish, lol. My background has absolutely nothing to do with science. I just dig the fish. Another tank or two means more fish, right? I've grown fond of my guppies. I need somewhere to put them before the cichlids show up, for obvious reasons.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm not a FIRM believer in the bottled stuff,but do think that using it along with the fishless cycle method may be the best way to use it.With this approach no fish are harmed.A few people have used the TSS or Dr Tims one and only and had decent results(about 2 weeks,with "fish in" )and others have used either without any effect.There are several threads on this topic already on this site.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Fireman, did you ever test for Nitrate ?


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Trout hunter said:


> I'm ok with more tanks.



Humm.. Master Plan of Oryx to get more tanks into the home?? Eight ball says, "Possibly so".


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## Trout hunter (Jan 27, 2014)

FishFlow said:


> Humm.. Master Plan of Oryx to get more tanks into the home?? Eight ball says, "Possibly so".


lol - she doesn't have to try very hard. I'm down with the fish, too!


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

FishFlow said:


> Fireman, did you ever test for Nitrate ?


Yes I have checked for nitrates a few times thinking maybe my nitrite test wasn't working for some reason.....


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Test result?


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> So this bacteria can go dormant? what does that mean exactly since you say they are life forms?


LOL, good one; you got me. For a while there I thought you were serious.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> LOL, good one; you got me. For a while there I thought you were serious.


I was serious.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Do you not believe that bacteria are life forms?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Oryx said:


> Do you not believe that bacteria are life forms?


lol, are we going to start that again? I asked about them going dormant...I think we all understand these are living things.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Ah okay. Long story short, yes, bacteria can go dormant. 

Some bacteria form spores, which are sacs of organelles and DNA that are extremely resistant to bad conditions (heat, cold, dry, etc). They can withstand being boiled, which kills the bacteria, but not the spores. When conditions are better, the spores "regenerate" into regular bacteria, forming membranes and going back to eating and pooping and having sex.

Pic of bacteria with spores. The spores are the little round things at the end of the bacteria, and the little clear round things floating around by themselves.










Some bacteria just sort of go to "sleep." Think deep, deep, deep coma. They don't eat, they don't breathe, they don't move, they don't poop. They can literally exist for YEARS like this. Nitrosomonas is like this. That's the guy that eats ammonia. You know what's really cool about Nitrosomonas? It has multiple long tube-like membranes that pull out the extra electrons from ammonia, and uses them as energy for moving around. Here's a pic showing those long membranes, around the edge of the bacteria:










Here's a pic of Bacillus subtilis, which lives in our guts. Note that he doesn't have those long membranes. Neat, huh?










Anyway I'm off track. So that's how companies like Tetra (and all the other companies that sell bacteria) can package the beneficial bacteria for our tanks. They induce terrible conditions for the bacteria, so the bacteria either form spores, or go into their comas; then Tetra will bottle them and sell them. 

When we dump the contents into our tanks, the bacteria realize that they're in ideal conditions, wake up, and start eating ammonia and nitrites again. It's pretty cool.

In the case where you don't add bottled bacteria, spores and vegetative bacteria are floating through the air or in your tap water, and eventually end up in your tank, where they wake up. Same situation, just takes a little longer.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, thanks. I guess that it is the process they use to bottle this stuff or their processes in general that is possibly what makes them hit and miss on whether it does anything. Too many negative reviews to say that every bottle is good.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Agreed. And just like buying anything, check the "best by" date. My bottle says March 2015, so I feel confident using it.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Test result?


Nitrate test was 5ppm

Ammonia was off the chart

Nitrite was 0ppm


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Stop dosing and watch the levels.1/2 dose in four days MAYBE?I have seen MANY here never detect nitrites and go right to nitrates.You really COULD be good to go in 4-7 days,but this is a geuss as predicting anything at this point is very diffacult.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> Stop dosing and watch the levels.1/2 dose in four days MAYBE?I have seen MANY here never detect nitrites and go right to nitrates.You really COULD be good to go in 4-7 days,but this is a geuss as predicting anything at this point is very diffacult.


It's so hard to know what do do when 1/2 say keep dosing and 1/2 say to stop or I will kill what BB I have. With only 5ppm of nitrate it's hard to think that I'm almost cycled but damn would I be happy if your right!!!! Thanks Bandit


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Me personally? I'd start over, with a new bottle of bacteria. But that's just me.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Oryx said:


> Me personally? I'd start over, with a new bottle of bacteria. But that's just me.


When you say start over do you mean a total water drain and start as if it was just bought today? Or just add a bottle of BB?


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Total drain. There could be something else in your water by now that's not so pretty, although with ammonia levels off the chart, I'm not sure what could live in it, except Nitrosomonas.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Oryx said:


> Total drain. There could be something else in your water by now that's not so pretty, although with ammonia levels off the chart, I'm not sure what could live in it, except Nitrosomonas.


Ok, here is my next question. There is very likely some BB in my tank/filters so if I drain and refill my tank and use the proper amount of "Prime" to remove the chlorine won't I also be removing all ammonia that the BB need to feed on? Also Prime says it removes ammonia so if I add ammonia won't the prime just neutralize it? I'm not trying to argue I just want to think out every possibility. Thanks!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Prime only locks ammonia and does not remove it from the biological process. I personally think starting over now is just a waste and adding a bottle of snake oil may or may not, mostly not, produce anything different.

Plus, if you start over do you add ammonia or go out and grab some fish? The bottled bacteria will not keep up with the bio load of a hefty dose of ammonia that would equal to a completely stocked+ tank. 1-2 fish maybe - if at all.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

NITRATES ARE BETTER THAN NITRITES!I would not start over ,but I would stop adding ammonia and test ammonia and nitrAtes for the next couple of days.The nitrates should grow and the ammonia decrease.
I think all the ammonia is blinding everyone to the nitrates.They don't just knock on the door and say I'm here!You're tank has /is cycling properly,but doesn't appear to need anymore ammonia at the moment.
I really have seen over 10 members cycle their tanks without ever getting nitrIte readings.The nitrAtes are THE END GAME OF THE NITOGEN CYCLE,and therefore I say you are close!Anyone who would like to can explain how else there are detectable nitrAtes if they like(I'm hip to learning)!


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Prime only locks ammonia and does not remove it from the biological process. I personally think starting over now is just a waste and adding a bottle of snake oil may or may not, mostly not, produce anything different.
> 
> Plus, if you start over do you add ammonia or go out and grab some fish? The bottled bacteria will not keep up with the bio load of a hefty dose of ammonia that would equal to a completely stocked+ tank. 1-2 fish maybe - if at all.


I agree jrman83 I do not WANT to start over but at day 28 today and NOTHING has happened I am starting to think it may be my best option. If I do choose to start over I won't add fish till I know I have enough BB to support a full fish load. I have been doing a lot of research on BB in a bottle and I feel the stuff from ATM called Colony is as good or better then anything else out there. 

Here is what I think I will do if I start over. I will drain and refill keeping all filter media wet. I will add Prime to remove the chlorine. Then I will add ammonia to get to 2-4 ppm. Then let the tank run for 24-48 hours to let every thing settle. After that time I will check ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Then I will add the Colony and check ammonia every morning and add as needed to keep it at 2-4ppm until it reads 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrites after 24 hours. Once this happens I'm sure I will have fairly high nitrates so I will do a WC to bring then down and go get fish. At that point I will be doing water tests at least once a day and will do daily water changes if that's what is needed to stay at safe levels. 

I'm sure this won't make some of you happy but to be honest most of you don't agree on much anyway...haha, That was meant as a joke so please don't think I don't appreciate all your advice.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> NITRATES ARE BETTER THAN NITRITES!I would not start over ,but I would stop adding ammonia and test ammonia and nitrAtes for the next couple of days.The nitrates should grow and the ammonia decrease.
> I think all the ammonia is blinding everyone to the nitrates.They don't just knock on the door and say I'm here!You're tank has /is cycling properly,but doesn't appear to need anymore ammonia at the moment.
> I really have seen over 10 members cycle their tanks without ever getting nitrIte readings.The nitrAtes are THE END GAME OF THE NITOGEN CYCLE,and therefore I say you are close!Anyone who would like to can explain how else there are detectable nitrAtes if they like(I'm hip to learning)!


That's good to know! 

My bottle of Colony won't be here for 4 more days so I won't do anything other then test daily till it gets here. If nitrates continue to go up I think your right that it is indeed cycling. Leave it to me to mess up something that nature does all on it own.... Haha


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, I look at it like this...your plan is a good one if you "have " to drain. If it works and works fairly quickly I am sure the believers in snake oil will say that the colony is what did it. Here again, this is where most people add it and think it really made a difference - somewhere in the middle of a somewhat mature cycle.

If you watch nitrates and they do climb over the next couple of days, even if the colony does come in don't stop the movement.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Oryx said:


> Total drain. There could be something else in your water by now that's not so pretty, although with ammonia levels off the chart, I'm not sure what could live in it, except Nitrosomonas.


I was curious what else you think would be in such a "hostile " enviroment,but I geuss you answered that"Nitrosonomas"?
Where is your water at today fireman?
And I'm on the skip the bottle stuff also .At this point I think you will be done in less than a week without it.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> I was curious what else you think would be in such a "hostile " enviroment,but I geuss you answered that"Nitrosonomas"?
> Where is your water at today fireman?
> And I'm on the skip the bottle stuff also .At this point I think you will be done in less than a week without it.


I just got home from a long day in a gym, I will check it soon and get back to you..... I have my fingers crossed!!!! Lol


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Ammonia = off the chart
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = 5-10 ppm hard to tell on the API test these colors are very close


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm starting to wonder about the ammonia test that you have.


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Its an API with exp date of 05/2017 Lot# 83A0512


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

Have you run an Ammonia test using that same kit on, say, tap water, or distilled water?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Oryx said:


> Have you run an Ammonia test using that same kit on, say, tap water, or distilled water?


no but I will do that now and get back to you in about 10 minutes


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Tap water reads 0ppm 

Can I ask why you would be suprized my reading would be off the chart? If you add 4ppm every day for 21 days and little or no nitrites and nitrates are present there is no where for all that ammoina to go so in my mind it should still be well over 8ppm which is the high range on the chart.


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## Oryx (Jan 27, 2014)

I think, and don't quote me on this, is that since nitrates are present, people are saying that the cycle IS working, albeit slowly, because you won't get nitrates without first having nitrites (because Nitrospirae are consuming nitrites to create nitrates). Since nitrites must therefore be present, they must be being created by Nitrosomonas, which consumes ammonia. Since you have, pardon my language, a ****load of ammonia in your tank, it's going to take some time for Nitrosomonas to eat its way through that.

Imagine a warehouse full of cheeseburgers. You eat only cheeseburgers. You can consume only so many cheeseburgers per day, and you poop even less than that, because you use up some of the cheeseburgers to live. Now imagine a creature which eats only Fireman poop. It's going to eat all of your poop, because there isn't a lot, not in a warehouse. So there are going to be small amounts of THAT creature's poop, but none of yours, and still a massive amount of cheeseburgers. It might take you a REALLY long time to eat all those cheeseburgers... But wouldn't it be easier if you had some buddies? 

Adding more bacteria certainly won't hurt.

(The only reason I asked about your ammonia test was to make sure it was working, and not contaminated.)


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## Trout hunter (Jan 27, 2014)

Where is this warehouse full of cheeseburgers? How do I get access? I don't know if I can eat a warehouse full of cheeseburgers, but by the grace of God and this bottle of ketchup, I'll give it everything I have.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Seeded material from a friend's tank will work better than anything else. Do you have any friends with tanks?


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Seeded material from a friend's tank will work better than anything else. Do you have any friends with tanks?


no, I wish I did but I dont know anyone with an aquarium. The closest fish store to me is an hour away and Im not sure if they would give me any filter media or not.


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## Avraptorhal (Jan 24, 2013)

When I cycled my first tank I miscalculated the ammonia I needed to keep the cycle going. When I added that amount of ammonia, probably 4 to 5 times maybe more of the required amount, it was immediately apparent, plants started to die. Then the next clue was the nitrates were way off the chart and fish started to die when the ammonia went to zero. So I WC the daylights out of the tank almost daily until the nitrates came down to about 20 ppm. The plants slowly recovered, fish stopped dying and the tank settled down. 

However, about a year later the original inhabitants perished, but not before presenting me with several crops of fry.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Oryx said:


> Imagine a warehouse full of cheeseburgers. You eat only cheeseburgers. You can consume only so many cheeseburgers per day, and you poop even less than that, because you use up some of the cheeseburgers to live. Now imagine a creature which eats only Fireman poop. It's going to eat all of your poop, because there isn't a lot, not in a warehouse. So there are going to be small amounts of THAT creature's poop, but none of yours, and still a massive amount of cheeseburgers. It might take you a REALLY long time to eat all those cheeseburgers... But wouldn't it be easier if you had some buddies?


This was the best explanation of ammonia and nitrite oxidation that I have ever read *r2


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