# New to saltwater: dumb question:



## LSUNurse (Jun 4, 2012)

Does fish only with live rock mean that you cannot/do not have invertebrates in the tank....? :fish5:


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## freshwater77 (May 24, 2011)

I would think if it means "fish" "only with live rock" implies you have fish and no artificial rock. "Fish only" "with live rock" to me means yes, you can/do/should only have fish and no invertebrates. If you're reading the label on something, then i'd believe it is the latter. Hope I helped (blast the English language and its ambiguity...). What's the context of the question?


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## SeansReef (Jul 30, 2010)

Fish only with live rock (fowlr) means just that. You are keeping saltwater fish and Live rock as apposed to fake plastic decorations.
Depending on the species of fish you keep, you can choose to add inverts, then maybe eventually move to a full reef aquarium.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

LSUNurse said:


> Does fish only with live rock mean that you cannot/do not have invertebrates in the tank....? :fish5:


Fish Only With Live Rock (FOWLR) implies fish with no Corals. Inverts are yours to choose from. It does not mean you shouldn't put them in. You will have to watch your calcium with when you put them in.
Also, it does not imply anymore that you are using totally Live Rock, it may all be Macro Rock with no Live Rock at all, it may also be that you are running a Bare Bottom system. The term just means you don't intend on having any Corals at this time in the tank.


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## LSUNurse (Jun 4, 2012)

I thought that it meant that I could have inverts. I was just making sure. My system is giving me tons of trouble (my fault...) I am losing my momentum!


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## phil_n_fish (Nov 19, 2011)

You can have inverts like crab and snails. Fowlr means you would only have live rock in the tank without the presence of coral. In other words, you would run it like a normal tank without coral. Inverts like crab and snails are part of a clean up crew which is needed in any system. The only fish you will need to watch out for with ur clean up crew are puffers and triggers. 
Hang in there, everybody ran into problems in their setup. What kind of problems are you having?


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## LSUNurse (Jun 4, 2012)

I am having nitrate and ich problems.

I have a 45 gallon tank that I have had since April 16, 2012. However, the tank was set up for about 1.5 years before I bought it and moved it. First (I was told), it was housing an octopus. Then, after the octopus was sold, a snowflake eel an a ton of grass shrimp. When I took the tank down, I kept the filter media in the canister to preserve the bacteria. The man i bought it had gravel in it, which I thought was ugly, so I replaced it with 40 lbs of live sand. The guy had no live rock and only two fake coral decorations. So, I purchased about 18 lbs of live rock and 20-30 lbs base rock. 

I stupidly assumed that the tank had remained cycled, which judging by my numbers now, it wasn't. I added fish too quickly. I currently have two ocellaris clowns, two B&W ocellaris clowns, a small yellow tang (already sold to a bigger home just not moved), a scooter blenny, a mandarin goby, a Bennet's sharpnose puffer, and two firefish. 

I am running a Odyssea 300GPH canister, a Marineland biowheel for 50 gallons, a CPR bakpak for up to 65 gallons, a 950GPH circulation pump by Aqueon. 

My ammonia has been between 0 and 0.15 (yellow with slight green tinge), nitrites have remained zero, nitrates have remained in the 80 ppm range (despite me more than keeping up with water changes). 

I have cut back on feeding, completely cleaned out the canister (leaving one "established" media), and have been skimming, skimming, skimming.

My fish all have voracious appetite and swim freely. Some days I can see white spots on them, some days I can't. I had a Bicolor Angel, but he passed away (had an eye infection as well).

This tank was sold to me very cheaply because the guy was being transferred to another location and didn't want to move everything. I couldn't pass it up, but, in hindsight, did not give myself enough time to research before "plunging in."

For now, I am keeping up with water changes, i removed the live rock and put it in a tank alone with my hermit crabs and circulation to keep it alive. I am treating with Kordon Ich Attack (the one that is NOT reef/invert safe) I believe it has both malachite green and formaldehyde in it.

Sorry so long, thanks for reading/skimming


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

You should have put the fish into the other tank and dosed that instead, because your main DT hasn't cycled yet, so your fish are going to be stressed out unitl those numbers come down. the Skimmer you have is to small for what you are keeping in that tank, you should get one rated for twice your water volume. Your filters are going to keep your Nitrates a problem for you unitl you rid your system of them completely, thats just their nature. Skimmers, Live Rock, Base Rock, powerheads, that is all your system needs, once its cycled. And the Skimmer should be a decent one, might I recommend, Reef Octopus, or SWC or Hydor.


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## Ranger (May 20, 2011)

TBH mate if you are going to keep saltwater and you get something that the bottle says not reef/invert safe then you shouldn't be putting it in your tank, I did a quick Google but the ones I seen said they were reef safe, but if a treatment is Reef safe then the chances are it won't work as it has no copper which is bad for Inverts/Corals.

You have to many fish in the tank also IMHO, the Puffer alone needs 50 gallon Min and the Bicolor Angel you picked needs a mature tank and even at that they are not easy to keep so it is no real suprise it has died.

And as said in a previous post the filters are gonna give you a nitrate problem, Cannister filters in saltwater and fershwater are used differently, when I had my big tank I would run it once per week with a bit of carbon just to get some crap out the tank but if you choose to run it always then the filter floss needs cleaned with tap water at least once per week as you will not be using it for bio-logical filtration but on teh other hand the filter you have is prob keeping your amonia down a little so taking it away the now may just give you an Amonia and Nitrite explosion.

The general rule of thumb is to move the fish to a QT tank treat them there but you may have ended up making things worse as Im guessing the QT Tank smaller than your main tank.

Get a decent Skimmer Deltec and TMC are 2 that you can't go wrong with alough here in the UK Marine Source seems to be building up a good following with Keepers.

My advice to you would be to look at your Ich treatment again if it is not reef/invert safe toss it in the bin if it is safe you could still put it in the tank but i'm betting it won't help no matter how much the guy in the shop says it does.

Power away at water changes and get your water in good condition good keep the fish fed and happy, if your water quality stays low and the fish aren't fed properly then you are looking at an imminent dooms day scenario as you can't really expect stessed, under-fed fish in poor water to live, if you could get some off the fish elsewhere that would be good as it will have less load on the tank.

If your fish don'tmake it an all end up dead tthen remove the filter and start the cycle again without it, since you have had Ich in the tank leave it for at least 8 weeks with no fish so all the Ich dies off, some say less than 8 weeks is needed but better to play it safe.

I know it is a real kick in the balls but it is something most off us have went through so take heart from it and look at it as a steep learning curve, and when you do get your tank up and going again try not to over stock it.


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