# New Plants! DIY CO2! Water Test Results! Pictures.....



## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

I recently purchased/collected some new plants for the aquarium...I also purchased a water test kit (Tetratest Laborett).

The water is still cycling (I hope), I have tested it and have results. I also added the following plants.

Java Moss
Anacharis
Java Fern
Anubias Nana

My water test results show:

Ammonia: 3.0mg/L
General Hardness: 3
Carbonate Hardness: 2
No2: 3.3
pH: 6.5
CO2: 21

I have a cloudy water picture and a picture of my new DIY CO2 Producer (working well!!!)

Is this tank cycling appropriately? Do I need to take some steps other than 20-30% weekly water changes?

Help? =)

Pics:


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## MediaHound (Jul 19, 2006)

How long has it been setup so far? Are you cleaning the filter or not really?


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Looks like its moving along, those goldfish should speed up things, the are, im sure putting off plenty of waste, and that co2 generator is making bubbles like crazy, how are you regulating how much co2 it injects??*


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

The tank has been set up for about a week and a half, however, it has been altered (driftwood and plants...gravel) twice. The filter has not been cleaned since it has been running. I was told to leave it alone and let it build up the natural bacteria that is meant to be in the tank. That right?

Haha, sorry to mislead you Jim, but most of the bubbles you see in the picture are from my aerator and aerator bars underneath the gravel. If you're referring to the buildup of the bubbles in the 2 liter bottle, yeah, lots of CO2 being produced. It has been growing steadily over the last couple of hours. I'll need to put some kind of filtering system together for the co2 line. You can't see the CO2 output in the pictures, but I'm getting a fine mist of bubbles every 20 seconds. I don't have anything to regulate the output of the CO2 yet, however, I plan to put an in-line control valve. 

Hopefully the plants drop my ammonia levels? The fish are doing nicely, and yes, I hope they help.

I'm also using a plant growth additive called Flora Excel or something. (on internet at friends house and don't see my bottle).


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## MediaHound (Jul 19, 2006)

The plants will help seed the tank with beneficial bacteria, they'll come in the form of hitchhikers. The plants will pick up at the caboose of the nitrogen cycle and use up the final by-product. 
Dont clean the filter, exactly. Let it get dirty as that "dirt" will be full of the bacteria that you need so dearly right now. Once your Nitrite starts to drop you are rounding third base of the cycle. So keep your eye on that. When that hits zero, hopefully your ammonia is zero also, then get the comets out and start planning the real community of fish.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

MediaHound said:


> The plants will help seed the tank with beneficial bacteria, they'll come in the form of hitchhikers. The plants will pick up at the caboose of the nitrogen cycle and use up the final by-product.
> Dont clean the filter, exactly. Let it get dirty as that "dirt" will be full of the bacteria that you need so dearly right now. Once your Nitrite starts to drop you are rounding third base of the cycle. So keep your eye on that. When that hits zero, hopefully your ammonia is zero also, then get the comets out and start planning the real community of fish.


Excellent! I was hoping the cycle was performing as it should. I'll monitor the levels every other day and watch for the Nitrites to drop. I have read that amm. and nitrite levels are usually similar, so hopefully the ammonia drops also. The comets will be replaced by a couple of oto cats, and perhaps some breeders. I'd like to run a breeder tank and see how juvenile fish take the setup. After that, I'd like to do some barbs and shrimp. 

I brought the crawdads back to the local river, as I noticed they weren't doing that well. I made sure they were not just stuck in a molting phase before returning them. All 3 of them eventually molted in my tank, and consumed their own molt (eww).


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## Oldman (May 25, 2009)

That is a nice looking tank gonathan85. You will want to lift up on the anubias until only the roots are under the gravel and the rhizome is above it. Otherwise the plant will die on you fairly quickly. It is one of those plants where a buried rhizome shortly means a dead plant. That is the reason that you usually see the plant tied to apiece of driftwood with the roots reaching down toward the gravel.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Oldman said:


> That is a nice looking tank gonathan85. You will want to lift up on the anubias until only the roots are under the gravel and the rhizome is above it. Otherwise the plant will die on you fairly quickly. It is one of those plants where a buried rhizome shortly means a dead plant. That is the reason that you usually see the plant tied to apiece of driftwood with the roots reaching down toward the gravel.


I'm actually in the process of doing just that right now. I might tie it to the driftwood or use small rocks near it to anchor the rhizome above the gravel.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

any special info for these as far as planting location?



















thanks...


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## obscbyclouds (Apr 6, 2009)

The top plant you posted above looks a lot like Trichomanes javanicum (common name aqua fern). I'm not 100% sure and maybe someone else can chime in, but if it is, that will rot and die in your aquarium. Here's a link:
Aqua Fern

The bottom is a Java Fern I'd say. Which should really be tied to a rock or driftwood similar to an anubia. Try not to bury the Rhizome.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

obscbyclouds said:


> The top plant you posted above looks a lot like Trichomanes javanicum (common name aqua fern). I'm not 100% sure and maybe someone else can chime in, but if it is, that will rot and die in your aquarium. Here's a link:
> Aqua Fern
> 
> The bottom is a Java Fern I'd say. Which should really be tied to a rock or driftwood similar to an anubia. Try not to bury the Rhizome.


Thanks for the reply! ERG local fish store...how dare you sell me non-aquatic plants!

It seems that most aquarium plants don't like to be planted in the substrate...


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## obscbyclouds (Apr 6, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> Thanks for the reply! ERG local fish store...how dare you sell me non-aquatic plants!
> 
> It seems that most aquarium plants don't like to be planted in the substrate...


Yeah, it's unfortunate that some stores sell non-aquatic plants for use in an aquarium. Angers me to no end!

Basically, plants that have rhizomes shouldn't be buried in the gravel. However, having the roots in the gravel is fine. Rooted plants (such as Crypts and Swords) and some stem plants (like Wisteria and Ludwigia) need to be planted.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

obscbyclouds said:


> Yeah, it's unfortunate that some stores sell non-aquatic plants for use in an aquarium. Angers me to no end!
> 
> Basically, plants that have rhizomes shouldn't be buried in the gravel. However, having the roots in the gravel is fine. Rooted plants (such as Crypts and Swords) and some stem plants (like Wisteria and Ludwigia) need to be planted.



Sounds like a relatively easy rule to follow. I took your suggestion and tied the Java Fern to my driftwood. I used a strand of hemp to secure it. Sorry that the anubia is taking all the credit in the picture, but you can see the Fern in the background. Also, to an updated (bad clarity) shot of the tank. I think I still have bacterial bloom from cycling.

Pics:


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Most of your plants are low light, slow growers that have rhizomes. Keep them all on the surface or on your driftwood. For that one fern, you might be able to tie it to the top of the driftwood and have it growing out of your tank. Fishing line works great and is see through.

Now the other issue. Your tank is very cloudy. Some of that might be bacteria bloom, but I wold strongly suggest cleaning your filter (if it looks dirty and is outputting slower) and doing more than regular water changes until your ammonia and nitrite is down to 0. I suggest 25% 2-3 times a week until it goes down. The majority of your bacteria is in your gravel so don't worry too much about the filter.

One last thing...Keep in mind that CO2 gets lost a lot faster when your air bubblers are on. Most people with DiY CO 2have the bubblers on a timer so that the only come on at night when your plants don't need CO2. Having it on during the day means that you are loosing half your CO2.....I am not sure how you are calculating your CO2 BTW, but chances are it is not accurate at all.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Most of your plants are low light, slow growers that have rhizomes. Keep them all on the surface or on your driftwood. For that one fern, you might be able to tie it to the top of the driftwood and have it growing out of your tank. Fishing line works great and is see through.
> 
> Now the other issue. Your tank is very cloudy. Some of that might be bacteria bloom, but I wold strongly suggest cleaning your filter (if it looks dirty and is outputting slower) and doing more than regular water changes until your ammonia and nitrite is down to 0. I suggest 25% 2-3 times a week until it goes down. The majority of your bacteria is in your gravel so don't worry too much about the filter.
> 
> One last thing...Keep in mind that CO2 gets lost a lot faster when your air bubblers are on. Most people with DiY CO 2have the bubblers on a timer so that the only come on at night when your plants don't need CO2. Having it on during the day means that you are loosing half your CO2.....I am not sure how you are calculating your CO2 BTW, but chances are it is not accurate at all.


To your suggestions, I re planted the anubia and java fern so either the rhizomes are above the gravel, or they are tied to the DW. I attempted to grow the one ferm out of the tank, and within 15 minutes, it had already shriveled up and died. I placed the rhizome/roots in a glass of water to see if they would sprout new growth. 

As far as the cloudy water goes, I suppose that I was just dealing with a bacterial bloom. At this point in time, my tank is clear and looking great! No more cloudy water for me. 

C02 responses:

I am calculating the ppm C02 levels using a chart that came with my test kit. The chart uses the measurement of KH (hardness), and the pH levels to zero in on a specific concentration of C02 in the tank. How accurate is it? I'm really not too sure. I'll work on setting up a timer for the bubbles. I purchased a glass hand-blown diffuser that will allow me to "count" the bubbles instead of them just freely flowing out of the diffuser stone.

Thanks for the continued responses guys!


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## obscbyclouds (Apr 6, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> C02 responses:
> I purchased a glass hand-blown diffuser that will allow me to "count" the bubbles instead of them just freely flowing out of the diffuser stone.
> 
> Thanks for the continued responses guys!



Glass diffusers require quite a bit of pressure to be really effective (i.e. a pressurized CO2 system). The best way to deliver DIY CO2 to your tank would be to hook the CO2 line up under the intake of a canister filter or power head, letting the impeller mix it into the water. You can also create your own DIY CO2 reactor. There's some info here.

Also if your have a waterfall effect (looks like you have) from your HOB filter, you are allowing a lot of CO2 to escape into the atmosphere. Most HOBs churn the waters surface enough to allow alot of escape. This can ruin the point of using DIY Co2 in the first place.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

obscbyclouds said:


> Glass diffusers require quite a bit of pressure to be really effective (i.e. a pressurized CO2 system). The best way to deliver DIY CO2 to your tank would be to hook the CO2 line up under the intake of a canister filter or power head, letting the impeller mix it into the water. You can also create your own DIY CO2 reactor. There's some info here.
> 
> Also if your have a waterfall effect (looks like you have) from your HOB filter, you are allowing a lot of CO2 to escape into the atmosphere. Most HOBs churn the waters surface enough to allow alot of escape. This can ruin the point of using DIY Co2 in the first place.


I have a friend with a tank that is using a pressurized system. He agreed to buy the glass diffuser in case it doesn't function properly for me.

Is there any way that I can modify the waterfall effect of the HOB filter to reduce surface agitation?

My plants are happy as can be at this point.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Keep the water level high so the HoB will not "waterfall" into the tank.

The kH to pH chart is pretty inaccurate. For instance if you are not using any CO2 and you take the kH and pH, the table will probably still say you have CO2 in your tank even though you really don't. The kH here is only accurate if it is measuring carbonate hardness alone but if you are using tap water the kH is being altered by other buffers like phosphates, sulfates, and silicates.

As far as measuring CO2, the best way is with a dropchecker and distilled water at a kH of 4. You get the kH to 4 by adding Sodium Bicarbonate as the only buffer (this is baking soda).

For what you need, I would just look at your pH out of the tap vs your tank first thing in the morning and right before lights out. Do not let the pH fluctuate over 0.8 or so. For example if your tap is 7.0, your reading in the morning might be 6.2 and by night 6.6. Also keep an eye out on your fish. If they look funny, or gasping, aerate more and change out some water. 

GL with your new setup!!!


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Keep the water level high so the HoB will not "waterfall" into the tank.
> 
> The kH to pH chart is pretty inaccurate. For instance if you are not using any CO2 and you take the kH and pH, the table will probably still say you have CO2 in your tank even though you really don't. The kH here is only accurate if it is measuring carbonate hardness alone but if you are using tap water the kH is being altered by other buffers like phosphates, sulfates, and silicates.
> 
> ...


Excellent! I'm continually impressed with your (and this forum's) knowledge!

At this point in time, I'm averaging a KH reading of 4. The fish seem to be in a healthy state at this moment. I called the local water company and asked them to send me a water test report (free), and I'll cross-check it with my readings. 

I'm heading to the LFS later today, and will ask about a dropchecker. 

Thanks again, D.

nate


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## thumbless (Sep 7, 2009)

Very interesting post.

Some of it/most was over my head.

Got me thinking though when i start up my own tank again for earnest.

Davey.

*Glasses**#3


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

thumbless said:


> Very interesting post.
> 
> Some of it/most was over my head.
> 
> ...


Reading about threads totally gives me the "fish" bug too. I just bought 2 oto cats and new plants!!!


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

I just came back from the LFS...picked up some new plants.

I also came home with 2 oto cats!

Can someone ID these plants for me?

New Plants:










New Glass Diffuser for DIY C02!










New Front View:










New Oto Cats! So excited...










thanks for lookin!

nate


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Looks great. That diffuser is working great with the DiY.


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## thumbless (Sep 7, 2009)

Brilliant pictures/tank by the way.

AQUAPAGE.eu - Aquarium plants - Vallisneria spiralis - Straight vallis

Think the plants are called Vallis.

You get 2 different varietes one straight and one spiralled, you get others.

It grows like crazy, sends shoots in the substrate and reproduces its self, in the correct light and CO2 conditions it will grow to the top of the tank and then grow along the surface.

Think it is a good beginer plant to start off with as it is easy to grow.

If anything i have said is wrong please correct me as i am a relative newcomer to the hobby.

Davey.

*Glasses**#*w3


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Looks great. That diffuser is working great with the DiY.


Thank you! 

I was semi-worried that the glass diffuser would not work well with the DIY...didn't know if I would be able to attain enough pressure. Seems to work great!


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

thumbless said:


> Brilliant pictures/tank by the way.
> 
> AQUAPAGE.eu - Aquarium plants - Vallisneria spiralis - Straight vallis
> 
> ...


Right on! I've read that some of the low growing plants require medium to high lighting specs. I've only got a 15w 6700k bulb in here, but it's a relatively small tank. Close to 1.5w/gallon so I suppose I'll be fine.

I'm eagerly awaiting the sprouts! 

Oh, these are a pain to keep in the gravel. ugh.

EDIT: I had a guy on another forum tell me not to be surprised if the two oto cats make it alive for two weeks in my tank =(. He said they are starved most likely, and need to be constantly fed? He also said they won't do good in a number of two in the tank...need more?

Confused.


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## thumbless (Sep 7, 2009)

I was fireing in 3 watts a gallon and Co2, i ended up with a jungle that had to be trimmed every week.

Never had any trouble with Algae.

Davey.

*Glasses**#3


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## obscbyclouds (Apr 6, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> EDIT: I had a guy on another forum tell me not to be surprised if the two oto cats make it alive for two weeks in my tank =(. He said they are starved most likely, and need to be constantly fed? He also said they won't do good in a number of two in the tank...need more?
> 
> Confused.


Oto's are quite social fish and would probably do better in a bit larger group. I have 4 in my 10 gal. that are doing well going on 4 months. I think you'd be well served to get 2 or 3 more. 

I feed zucchini about 1x a week in addition to algae tablets (which they sometimes eat before my corydoras to it!) and naturally growing algae on plants. They love the the zucchini and I usually blanch it in the microwave before to help it sink and soften it for them.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

obscbyclouds said:


> Oto's are quite social fish and would probably do better in a bit larger group. I have 4 in my 10 gal. that are doing well going on 4 months. I think you'd be well served to get 2 or 3 more.
> 
> I feed zucchini about 1x a week in addition to algae tablets (which they sometimes eat before my corydoras to it!) and naturally growing algae on plants. They love the the zucchini and I usually blanch it in the microwave before to help it sink and soften it for them.


Thanks for the response!  I did indeed make it to the LFS last night and bought some more otos. I figure that since they are social, the more the better (obviously not too many!). I acclimated them to the tank, and blanched some zucchini for them. I altered my timer for my light schedule to reduce initial stress. Hopefully these ones do well! If I just can't break the bad luck streak, I might go with cory cats instead =).

Thanks!
nate


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I would be worried about the 3 ppm ammonia. I have never seen my planted tanks with ammonia that high even after adding fish. I would stop adding food until that drops to 0. 

Hopefully it has already dropped down since your post and measurement.

my .02


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> I would be worried about the 3 ppm ammonia. I have never seen my planted tanks with ammonia that high even after adding fish. I would stop adding food until that drops to 0.
> 
> Hopefully it has already dropped down since your post and measurement.
> 
> my .02


yup, the ammonia has dropped to 0! 

the tank is running stable and solid!


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## Crusher7485 (Sep 18, 2009)

I noticed you didn't have a cover. I went down to a hardware shop and got a piece of glass cut to fit in the top of the tank. Have about a 1.5 in gap in back for filter and air lines for UGF. Just a note, helps keep down the evap. 

Looks nice!


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Crusher7485 said:


> I noticed you didn't have a cover. I went down to a hardware shop and got a piece of glass cut to fit in the top of the tank. Have about a 1.5 in gap in back for filter and air lines for UGF. Just a note, helps keep down the evap.
> 
> Looks nice!


I've been planning to do this as well. I just need to make the time to get the dimensions and head to the store =).

Would this affect the plants at all? IE: tank needs to "breathe?"


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> I've been planning to do this as well. I just need to make the time to get the dimensions and head to the store =).
> 
> Would this affect the plants at all? IE: tank needs to "breathe?"


On my planted tanks with no circulation all that would happen is you would have less evaporation. One 10g tank I have here with a "solid" cover only requires a top off of about 1/2g each week.

The plants themselves make the tank a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen so that air/gas interchange is much less important or in fact can be ignored. I have even seen some "eco jars" where the jar is sealed. With the idea that the plants/and livestock can live for years. But in a tank where you feed the fish you would have to "break the seal" from time to time.


FWIW on several tanks I use 1/4 square egg crate (lighting diffusers) for the tank top. It prevent fish jumping, I can rest lights on it, you can feed right through the 1/4 grid, allows air/gas interchange, plus a 2'x4' sections is like $11 or so. But it does kinda look getto. 


my .02


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> On my planted tanks with no circulation all that would happen is you would have less evaporation. One 10g tank I have here with a "solid" cover only requires a top off of about 1/2g each week.
> 
> The plants themselves make the tank a ned consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen wo that air/gas interchange is much less important.
> 
> ...


Hi! Thanks for the recommendations and reference to egg crate material. I actually have some of this back at the parent's house...could hop over and pick it up and cut it to size...I could also cut around the spots where the filter is in the way since the material is already in a "grid" pattern..Very nice..thanks!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> Hi! Thanks for the recommendations and reference to egg crate material. I actually have some of this back at the parent's house...could hop over and pick it up and cut it to size...I could also cut around the spots where the filter is in the way since the material is already in a "grid" pattern..Very nice..thanks!


Glad to help.

now you owe me a picture when you get it setup.


my .02


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> Glad to help.
> 
> now you owe me a picture when you get it setup.
> 
> ...



deal.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't use a top for my tank (see below link). The only time I do is when I have fish known to jump (killiefish and such).


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> I don't use a top for my tank (see below link). The only time I do is when I have fish known to jump (killiefish and such).


I'd basically be doing it to put a minor control on evaporation...not a big deal...

I do have an issue with Java Moss turning brownish? It still has bright green new growth though...strange..


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> I'd basically be doing it to put a minor control on evaporation...not a big deal...
> 
> I do have an issue with Java Moss turning brownish? It still has bright green new growth though...strange..



that is normal. Plants will have older leaves that turn brown. The main thing is there is new growth that looks nice and healthy.


my .02


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> that is normal. Plants will have older leaves that turn brown. The main thing is there is new growth that looks nice and healthy.
> 
> 
> my .02


I agree to an extent...It looks more natural I suppose. However, I have seen pictures of java moss looking bright green and healthy...oh well.


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## spawn (Sep 21, 2009)

you may provide some good fertilisers..so that plants can grow very fast...


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

spawn said:


> you may provide some good fertilisers..so that plants can grow very fast...


I have the DIY C02 running, and also am dosing with Flourish Excel. I am also using undergravel fert tabs made by seachem.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Excel (a CO2 substitute) will kill moss, and there are a few java ferns don't like it either...for what ever reason.

Undergravel nutrient will not help with moss and ferns since they are not actually planted. Try Flourish complete from Seachem.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Excel (a CO2 substitute) will kill moss, and there are a few java ferns don't like it either...for what ever reason.
> 
> Undergravel nutrient will not help with moss and ferns since they are not actually planted. Try Flourish complete from Seachem.


Ah I didn't know this! Some of the newer leaves on my Java Fern have a clear fragile appearnce. Maybe this is what is happening? I'll try to get some Flourish Complete for this tank.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, this is not common knowledge and there is nothing on the bottle about it, but many people have found that Excel works as an algaecide, and can be used to treat a tank for algae at 2-3x the normal dose. It can also be used to spot kill BBA (black brush algae) in some cases. 

But for all the good it does to most plants, and as an algaecide, it seems to negatively affect a few common plants like some mosses and java ferns. Perhaps it is because they are not "rooted" so they absorb more of this, or they have more in common with with algae?

Hope this fixes your problems. It's small details like this that most people don't mention when trying to fix something or figure out what's wrong, so I am glad you mentioned what you use.


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Yeah, this is not common knowledge and there is nothing on the bottle about it, but many people have found that Excel works as an algaecide, and can be used to treat a tank for algae at 2-3x the normal dose. It can also be used to spot kill BBA (black brush algae) in some cases.
> 
> But for all the good it does to most plants, and as an algaecide, it seems to negatively affect a few common plants like some mosses and java ferns. Perhaps it is because they are not "rooted" so they absorb more of this, or they have more in common with with algae?
> 
> Hope this fixes your problems. It's small details like this that most people don't mention when trying to fix something or figure out what's wrong, so I am glad you mentioned what you use.


...and I very much appreciate the knowledge you have shared! Sometimes it is the small details that don't make it to labels that cause the biggest headaches! =)

I set up another 10g tank with higher lighting...will post progress soon!

nate


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## spawn (Sep 21, 2009)

we will wait to see your tank pictures...


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## gonathan85 (Aug 13, 2009)

spawn said:


> we will wait to see your tank pictures...


the lighting setup, filter, air pump, and extra gravel will arrive either monday or tuesday!


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