# confused please help



## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

I don't know what to do.. I am new to this hobby, but I want to do things right. Unfortunately we have ammonia (.5) in our tap water. I have a 29 gallon tank, ug filter, hob filter, 3 tetra fish 2 crabs and a frog. my tank has been going for about 1 week. I took water to my LFS And it tested .5 for ammonia same as out of the tap. My LFS tells me to add ammonia remover. 
What do you people here think about that.



Also I have a 55 gal. I was going to set up. I've read about real plants and wanted to try it. My LFS said it dosent help my ammonia problems. I thought I read here that plants consume ammonia. :fish9:


Thanks for any advise!!!!!!!!


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Prime I believe will bind the ammonia.Its a water conditioner.I myself dont use it as I dont need it,but have read rave reviews and many here will swear by it.

Live plants will help your ammonia issue,or rather nitrite levels which come after the beneficial bacteria consume the ammonia.There has been a test on a site about the benefits of live plants in betta jars(as this is what I breed and keep so its my only examples):java moss

I think that a fish tank is not healthy unless you have live plant.But really I suppose its a personal preference.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

You'll be surprised how much fish store people don't know about aquariums, mostly because they don't get much training. Live plants can help ammonia levels over time. You'll still want to do water treatment, because in the short run (like the first few days) fish can't deal with untreated ammonia, it will burn their skin/gills etc. but if you use your ammonia test kit as the days go by you'll see the ammonia go down due to the plants (and the biofilter) in a planted, cycled tank. 

Of course to do things right, first and foremost you set up your tank (with any plants you want) and water treatment and everything else, and you let it run. Before you buy fish you buy water tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Best to buy a master kit with all the tests right off the bat, because eventually things will come up and you will need them all, but the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are crucial for set up so that you can tell if your tank is cycling properly. Tanks need to build up a biofilter that consists of bioorganisms that will eat ammonia and turn it into nitrite, then more that will turn nitrite into nitrate, and they can't do that without a supply of ammonia, so you're going to need to decide if you want to supply the ammonia via a couple live fish, which have to be tough and which may die if things don't go well, or with ammonia (chemical ammonia) or with fish food - people sometimes use regular fish food flakes which rot and create ammonia and cause cycling this way but are slower and kind of imprecise. You will find lots of information on cycling on this forum, but before you add any fish that you love, get that tank cycled, because once the tank is cycled, with a complete population of those biofilter organisms, they (helped by the plants) will take care of the ammonia for you.

But if I were you I would always treat new water with water treatment chemicals, just to bind the ammonia in it so that it is changed into a form that won't burn your fish before you add it to your tank, then in the bound form the ammonia can be eaten by your plants and by your biofilter.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think a planted tank is the best thing for someone who has ammonia in their tap. Plants will consume it. It may also help to set aside the water for your water change the day before, assuming you do water changes.

Another incicdent of "don't listen" to the person at the store.

Good stocking level for your 29 and it cycling, although maybe a tad much. With ammonia present fron the gitgo, you'll need to stay on top of it. I'd recommend getting your own test kit, preferrably a liquid test kit.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

by using the prime am I slowing down the cycle??? I like the idea of live plants, Can I still use a UGF with real plants????


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Prime won't hurt the cycle. My advice would be to get rid of the ug as it isn't needed and don't go well with plants. With your hob if it is big enough should provide enough filtration for your tank.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

The thing about UGFs not working with plants is a myth. Take a look at my tank pictures - that's all UGF and has been for more than a decade. Aponogetons bloomed with my UGF, eventually I had to pull them out and sell them, they got too big. Bolbitis goes crazy. Water wisteria went nuts, I had to pull it out to make room for my fish.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

In all fairness to your LFS they are stating the commonly accepted ideas which are actually true in mature aquariums where the bacteria is reducing the ammonia and nitrItes to nitrates. Then the nitrates are removed through water changes or plant action.

It took many years on these forums before I found out why my planted techniques has worked so well from decades past. Plants actually prefer to consume ammonia for their nitrogen over nitrates. So if ammonia is present and not being reduced by bacteria the plants will rapidily consume that ammonia.

Prime locks up ammonia and has uses. Just not for new tanks. It (along with other dechlorinatos/ammonia locks) also removes oxygen from the water and the water can still test for ammonia even though the ammonia is locked.


.5ppm ammonia will be removed in a day or less by thriving plants.

So what I do is start the tank with lotsa fast growing true aquadic plants (anacahris/vals) plus some slower growers as well.

Then let the tank set a week before adding any fish.

your ammonia will be totally removed by then.

then add a single fish and not add food for a week.

Then add more fish and start feeding very very lightly (1 flake or so per day).

I also just top off the water.

If you add 10% water to replace evaporative that will only be .05ppm ammonia which the plants will remove in minutes or hours. But if you do massive water changes, the ammonia will create a much greater shock to the system. Which can kill the tank if the tank has no method (like plants) to take care of the ammonia.

You might want to check out some of the beaslbob build forums in the planted section.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You do need water conditioner though. Whether you use Prime or not is your choice. It is probably the most widely used water treatment used. There are other products. Unless you're on well water or something.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

Wow thanks for the info, I do have well water. I want to start my 55 gal. soon. I will check into the plants suggested, probably have to get them online. I am going to my fish store tonight. still questions on the UGF....do you still use peat moss, sand, and gravel combo???


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mike 1980 said:


> Wow thanks for the info, I do have well water. I want to start my 55 gal. soon. I will check into the plants suggested, probably have to get them online. I am going to my fish store tonight. still questions on the UGF....do you still use peat moss, sand, and gravel combo???


edit: Don't use a UGF with plants. If for nothing no other reason it is not needed. But others report the plant roots will plug up the UGF and the ugf itself will not be the best for the plants as well.


You could try AquariumPlants.com

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Honestly, it sounds like the use of UGF with plants is a little controversial. Everything I've read that people say don't, have never tried it because that is what they read...everyone that says it works great is usually doing it presently. Not saying that those on here that have said don't do it haven't tried it ever, just going by what I have read over the last year or so of searching around on the internet and catching bits and pieces of UGF discussions. It can get humorous at times.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

Well, my wife hates the sound of our UGF,  so we are all for doing the 55 Gal. without one. It was recommended that after a week to put only 1 fish in the tank.... My wife though refuses to only put 1 fish in the tank. (he needs a playmate) lol.. so I hope that wont be a big deal, I'll make sure they are small. 


My hood only has one light across the top. Is that ok when you have a lot of plants? I know to get the grow lights, its just that a lot of threads talk about 2 lights. Really the light lust lays across the top, but I've read to raise it with 2 by 4's. 


Thanks for all the input. I'm glad I found this forum!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you're referring to cycling the tank with more than 1, I'd suggest a few more. Only 2 fish will make the cycle take some time. Getting an ammonia reading could take well over a week, which is the start of it all.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Just for information sake, people think about UGFs and they think, well, won't the roots get in the way? won't they go underneath and stop things from working? Won't they get tangled in the plate and be impossible to remove? But my experience with bolbitis and aponogetons and java ferns is that they grow roots through the substrate to the plate, but not far past the plate, probably because the water flow underneath the plate acts like air pruning and discourages them. When I pull up a plant from the substrate it is never tangled in anything, even when I took up a mother aponogeton that was fully the size of half of my 55 it wasn't tangled in anything, just in the gravel, not the plate. 

You couldn't do peat and sand and whatnot with a UGF, because the particle size is too small and it would fall through the plate and clog it, and there would be no water flow through the plate, but that's fine. What we're doing are two different types of stream bed. In my experience, from walking through lots of creek beds, is that there are deep, muddy rich organic beds that are like cake with no flow through the substrate, and there are also beds built of gravel that area shallower, brighter (more light) with faster moving water that the water rushes through the substrate, with little or no organic material between the stones and gravel (because the water flow between the stones doesn't really allow it to accumulate that high) both kinds of habitats occur in nature, both have plants in them. 

There was a bend of salmon creek where the water was probably only 1.5 feet deep and the stones were very clean - an inch to pea gravel sized - that was the first place I ever ran into mts type snails, one of the reasons I always have mts in my UGF. The flow was so fast the fish that were there looked to be always swimming against the flow, just staying in the same place waiting for stuff to come at them. Lots of crayfish just sitting, waiting, and plants bent parrallel to the bottom because of the high flow. I don't try for anything like that flow rate, but when I think of how a UGF works, I often think of that bend.

But don't take my word for it, look at my pictures. My plants speak for themselves. I just had to pull half of my bolbitis out of my 55 and take it off to the LFS 'cause I couldn't see the fish anymore. Today I'm going to try an experiment with some heavy stainless wire as an alternative for lead plant weights. I know lead oxidizes, not sure the lead is great for my fish. I think even if the stainless rusts it will be better for the tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> If you're referring to cycling the tank with more than 1, I'd suggest a few more. Only 2 fish will make the cycle take some time. Getting an ammonia reading could take well over a week, which is the start of it all.


Actually the one fish was for smaller 10-20g tanks. With larger tank that would just be on the safe side. But with a 55g, you could put in 5 male plattys for instance or possibly 6 neon tetras. Just be sure not to add food the first week.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Actually the one fish was for smaller 10-20g tanks. With larger tank that would just be on the safe side. But with a 55g, you could put in 5 male plattys for instance or possibly 6 neon tetras. Just be sure not to add food the first week.
> 
> my .02


The Neons I've been around would die just from the sight of a tank that was cycling. Somebody mentioned something on here a while back that stated they are half dead when you get them to begin with and I believe that. I wouldn't use them for a cycle. Much too fragile - same with Cards. Platys worked well for me.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> The Neons I've been around would die just from the sight of a tank that was cycling. Somebody mentioned something on here a while back that stated they are half dead when you get them to begin with and I believe that. I wouldn't use them for a cycle. Much too fragile - same with Cards. Platys worked well for me.


that is a good and excellent point.

But im my experience if you select healthy neons (and have the peat moss) you should be fine. I for instance reject any neons where you can see red gills for instance.

But a valid point and perhaps other ifsh would be a better choice.

Again the heavily planted setup results in no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes especially when not adding food the first week the fish are in their.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't always get the option of choice around here, as I am a Cardinal fan. I usually buy all they have, when they have - my lfs. Bought 17 Monday and lost 2. Finally up to 30.


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## pringleringel (Apr 3, 2011)

I cycled my tank with 5 neons *shark chase

I also had 2 guppies, 2 mollies, 1-golden gourami and 2-white tetras.

I lost the guppies and one molly to fungus and I had one neon die but I still think he choked on a bloodworm. Then I treated the tank ridich and killed my biofilter and I'm back to daily water changes cycling it again... Poor fish.

It's a good thing I pay close attention to it.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

The main thing about using ugs with plants is most people that do planted tanks use finer substrate that will clog the plates of a ug. The basis of the ug is to utilize the gravel used with them for filtration. With using peat, sand and other like substrates the water don't flow though them as well plus they clog the ug.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the advise, I am getting plants tomorrow and will start filling tomorrow night. I found a fish store close with a good variety. Is there a certain amount i should get for a 55 gal. tank? I would like to go filter-less and thought it would make difference.. 


Also my light has a reflector does that make a difference on my light selection??



Thanks again


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mike 1980 said:


> Thanks for all the advise, I am getting plants tomorrow and will start filling tomorrow night. I found a fish store close with a good variety. Is there a certain amount i should get for a 55 gal. tank? I would like to go filter-less and thought it would make difference..
> 
> 
> Also my light has a reflector does that make a difference on my light selection??
> ...


for plants I recommend lotsa fast growing anacharis and vals. Plus some slower growers like small potted (crypts, swords) and 1 or 2 amazon swords. I would try for 20 anacharis bunches and/or vals.

For lighting try for 2 watts/gallon of normal output flourescent 6500k lighting.

On a 55g a couple of 4' t-8 (32 watt/tube) 2 tube utility fixtures would be excellent. fixtures at home depot cost around $10 each and the 6500k tubes are like 2 for $7 or so.


my .02


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

Awesome, 20 minutes left of work and I am going straight to town to get all my materials. *w3 I didn't realize I would need that many plants. I hope I can see my fish and frogs when I am done. lol I can't thank you fish experts enough. When I get it set up I will post some pic's. Thanks again for all the quick responses!!!!!!!*thumbsup thanx




*W


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

I have a UGF under some of my amazons. they seem to do well enough with it. I dont think its a big issue. I have a section with plants over the UGF and a section with plants without a UGF. they grow the same in the same tank. So maybe some proof for a UGF not effecting them?

Another topic here seems to be cycling... A friend of mine just started his own 55 gallon tank. I suggested (as an experiment) to try just putting food flakes in the tank to see how well it would cycle. He's using a gravel with bacteria in it already (i dont remember the name but its a plant substrate) and he put the flakes in the tank. 2 weeks later he's over the ammonia and nitrite spike and is coming off the nitrate spike. He has no plants in it yet and also, no fish. So this could be a method to try without having to use fish and putting them ona potential death row.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

phys said:


> I have a UGF under some of my amazons. they seem to do well enough with it. I dont think its a big issue. I have a section with plants over the UGF and a section with plants without a UGF. they grow the same in the same tank. So maybe some proof for a UGF not effecting them?
> 
> Another topic here seems to be cycling... A friend of mine just started his own 55 gallon tank. I suggested (as an experiment) to try just putting food flakes in the tank to see how well it would cycle. He's using a gravel with bacteria in it already (i dont remember the name but its a plant substrate) and he put the flakes in the tank. 2 weeks later he's over the ammonia and nitrite spike and is coming off the nitrate spike. He has no plants in it yet and also, no fish. So this could be a method to try without having to use fish and putting them ona potential death row.





Thats good to know. I have 2 tanks 29 Gal. and 55 Gal. The 29 already has fish and clawed frogs in it. Its not planted and has a UGF already. I really hope my fish and frogs are going to be ok. I already have ammonia in my tap water, so I had to put prime in. Its been started for about 2 weeks. I want to put a few plants in there to help with ammonia.

The 55 gal. will be planted and I won't put fish in till my ammonia comes down. My LFS didn't have enough plants so I ended up having to order them online. 


Thanks!!


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

One thing to try is running the water through something like a brita filter. I'm not sure if it decreases the ammonia but if you have it, check the water from it.. Also, see if your LFS sells filtered water. 

The Prime will need to be replaced every 24 hours i think. So check the label and follow the dosing instructions. There are also some forms of carbon (i think its carbon, could be something similar but named different, i only saw it at a petstore but havent used it) that help to remove ammonia from your tank. Something else to check on.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Prime doesn't get re-dosed. Zeolite is a form of ammonia remover that comes in filter bags. Hagen sells it as "ammonia remover."

You had the .5 ammonia in your tap, right? Have you tried leaving your water change water out 24hrs to see if it goes down? I agree with plants. They will be the best way to rid your tank of ammonia after a water change. Ordering them online is the way to go. I just ordered about 150 myself.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

phys said:


> One thing to try is running the water through something like a brita filter. I'm not sure if it decreases the ammonia but if you have it, check the water from it.. Also, see if your LFS sells filtered water.



Never heard of using the brita filter. I don't have one, but I will check into it for my fish and me. I have heard to use reverse osmosis, but I think it is expensive. My LFS said they will fill jugs of water for me. That's good for water changes, but they say no water changes till after the cycle. 






jrman83 said:


> Prime doesn't get re-dosed. Zeolite is a form of ammonia remover that comes in filter bags. Hagen sells it as "ammonia remover."
> 
> You had the .5 ammonia in your tap, right? Have you tried leaving your water change water out 24hrs to see if it goes down? I agree with plants. They will be the best way to rid your tank of ammonia after a water change. Ordering them online is the way to go. I just ordered about 150 myself.



Yup, that's me.. No I haven't tested water for ammonia after letting it sit out. I'll see what happens, I still need to get a tester. My LFS tests for free, so I've been putting off buying a test kit. time to buy one though I am feeling bad about bugging them so much. Good luck with your plants!! Wow 150 plants how big is your tank???


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

jrman is correct about the prime. no redosing. 

You can do water changes while you cycle. it really doesnt hurt anything as far as i know. if anyone else knows of otherwise please let us know. 

With R/O water, you'll have to make sure to add things for your KH and GH. It really strips the water of almost everything. I've had to start doing a 50/50 mix of R/O and tap water to help things because it takes way too much powder to get things back up with weekly water changes.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

mike 1980 said:


> Never heard of using the brita filter. I don't have one, but I will check into it for my fish and me. I have heard to use reverse osmosis, but I think it is expensive. My LFS said they will fill jugs of water for me. That's good for water changes, but they say no water changes till after the cycle.


I haven't read back to the beginning, but if you have fish in the tank it may become necessary to perform water changes to save your fish. Oterwise, water changes aren't needed. Water changes affect the cycle by delaying it a little. 





mike 1980 said:


> Yup, that's me.. No I haven't tested water for ammonia after letting it sit out. I'll see what happens, I still need to get a tester. My LFS tests for free, so I've been putting off buying a test kit. time to buy one though I am feeling bad about bugging them so much. Good luck with your plants!! Wow 150 plants how big is your tank???


Definitely get your own test kit. API master test kit is preferred. Usually only about $20 shipped from Walmart.com. The majority of the plants will be going into a 29g believe it or not. The rest will be going into one of my 125s.


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## mike 1980 (Apr 9, 2011)

Wow all in a 29, how many fish are there?? After work Today I picked up some plants for my 29 gal. Not near 150 plants. I can't imagine what that will look like, I hope you put some pics up I gotta see that.


Question though..... I bought some bunched plants. Do I separate the stems and roots, or keep them bunched? There are like 5-7 stems in each bunch. My plants for my 55 Gal. will be here tomorrow I'll be planting about 15 bunches so I guess I should figure it out. lol

Thanks


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