# Giving it Another Try



## petehall

Hello,

Many years ago I had a tank, that did not go well. I took the advice of a clerk at a BIG retail chain on set up and ended up with a foul tank. At the time it was blamed on being too near a window, but in retrospect I doubt that had too much to do with the demise of the water quality. I spent endless hours vacuuming and cleaning the glass and precious little time just gazing into the water.

Well I am going to give this another try; only this time with a more investigative approach. But damn, there are so many conflicting opinions on the web. I have read how underground filters are the best, then I read they are the worst. I read that canister filters are the best, then I read they are overkill for the 30 gallon tank I bought at a garage sale. I have read that two different types of filter systems are best, then I read that is silly for a 30 gallon tank. I suffer from just enough knowledge to be totally confused.

So I am here to learn. I am here to exercise patience and to gather information from enthusiasts like yourselves who do not have an agenda to sell me more "stuff." I want to figure this out properly before I just go out and buy a few fish. 

Thank you for the site. I look forward to exploring it.

Pete(r)
Falmouth, Maine


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## navigator black

I suggest you decide what fish or plants you would want in your 30 gallon. Then, you can get experienced feedback here, on what equipment would fit best. It's really quite simple, in spite of the tenedency of websites to make it look complex.
First, I would say undergravel is out. It does work, but is a pain. Look at hang on the back versus canister, and see how each appeals.
HOB are cheaper, easier to clean but in view.
Canisters are more expensive, harder to clean but need less cleaning, probably more efficient and can be less obvious.
Both do essentially the same thing.


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## jrman83

Welcome to the site and back to the hobby.

I would plan on planting your tank from the beginning. Plants can make things easier.

Although I don't agree that canisters are harder to clean, they do require less cleaning. So maybe it is a trade off. Type of filter you get is your preference for cost, etc. Personally, I say if you don't mind spending a few extra bucks, go for it. I have one on a 29g and love it. It should turn over the water about 5 Times per hour.

I would not position your tank too close to a window though. It can cause green water or algae issues. As long as you have blinds you may be okay.


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## Crazy

I don't put much stock in the advice of chain store employees, but here you will find all the answers you did/didn't want. The setup of your tank is very dependant upon what you want to keep and it's specific needs. For instance my 75g oscar tank is filtered at 770gph, or just over 10x per hour where as my planted cherry red shrimp tank is more at 6x per hour because they can't handle the higher flow and don't really need the higher filtration. It is all about the fish.


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## Dafo

Hi. 
My opinion is that there is one more thing that is very important at the beginning (even before fishes and filter power which is also very important)- talking about water you have. If you will be using your water from domestic water system than it is quite logical at the beginning to decide for fish that requires the water you can assure to them with weekly water changes (ph, no3, phosphates)- so it is good to buy testers at the very beginning and then decide for fishes. 
If not that way then you will have to buy some chemicals and/or some additional accessories for changing the water param's (like reserve osmosis) which can be a little problematic according to all other things you will have to deal with at the beginning of this hobby in order to have nice looking and healthy aquarium. 

You can also simply buy fishes that you visually like after aquarium cycling but this is far from optimal parameters and healthy environment for organisms in your aquarium so I do not advice you that.


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## Reefing Madness

*welcome w-smiles


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## petehall

I have to say I am amazed at the friendly nature of folks at this site. Thank you all.

So let me pose the question this way. What fish and plant life would you suggest to a newbie whose initial goal is to learn and enjoy a basic fresh water tank? I am more interested in a strategy that gives a high chance of success with healthy fish. I have no interest in large fish, rare fish, or large numbers of fish. 

I have ordered a book off of Amazon, The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums (Second Edition) by David E. Boruchowitz. My initial plan is to read it and go slow. My guess is this sort of topic has been discussed here already. Time for me to go string searching.....

And once again, thank you kindly for the warm welcome.

Peter Hall


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## SevenNoOni

I really enjoy neon tetras and cobra/fancy guppies for a planted tank. The colors just pop more. But again that's just my opinion. When I first started my planted I went with amazon swords and anubias. They seem to be easy and hardy. The only problem I see with my advice is the problem I'm getting into now. The guppies have exploded out way to many babies. Luckily I have a LFS that will take my extra and give me a bit of store credit. But again just my two cents. Welcome back to the fish addiction! 


Side note I'd go with a hob filter just for the price at the moment. Maybe in a year if you really enjoy fish keeping and it's going good upgrade. No need to sink millions into something you may not enjoy in 6 months. Have a good day!!!!


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## Crazy

I would look into sunset wag mollys/platys. Easy and fun fish with a lot of color.


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## Rob72

welcome aboard


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## ro laren

Welcome!
I'm still cycling my tank but I plan to have endlers livebearers myself. Easy and sooo colorful! My advice is to look around, drive a little farther if you have to, to find better fish than are sold at the major chains. They can be so much prettier and healthier! I had no idea that fish could be so pretty till i went to a good LFS.


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## joe2011

hello an welcome


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## clep.berry

Welcome!
I'm also pretty new to the hobby and have made my fair share of mistakes already!
Since I've had a recent start in the hobby, here's what I'd do in retrospect...
Forget about fish for a while... Yup all you need right now at this stage is investment in Plants (Join the Chat and get acquainted with our local hobby retailer since you're in the US), gravel (again ask in the chat room what the Nicer options are that are easy on the wallet such as blasting sand!) and decorations.
Go to the Tropica Aquarium Plants website and lots of others and look at different examples of plants and props you can use. I like Tropica because it tells me how much light the plants need and also whether they need CO2.
Things to avoid (That I've done): Avoid plants that you haven't identified. Chances are they are not aquatic. Avoid plants that you don't have the light/co2 for - make sure you invest in these early on instead! Don't medicate for anything unless you know exactly what's wrong. Don't over-feed. Never assume your tank is cycled until you have Nitrates present and don't trust the store to test your water (My local store was using a test strip - not ideal - and ONLY checking pH and whether Nitrates were too high. My problem was likely an uncycled tank!)
What fish? I'd go for 8-10 Cory of the same kind, 8 cardinal tetra and 8 rummynose tetra as a start introducing a group per week once the tank is cycled. You may think that's a lot of small fish but my reasoning is that you get a nicer display keeping these fish in bigger numbers.
Filters? A big filter turned down works better than a small filter turned up... so just get a big one that can work at a low-enough power level and you won't be caught out.
cb


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## snail

I know it can be frustrating when you get conflicting advice. After a while you will get the hang of separating bad advice, good advice and personal preference and you will decide what works for you. 

Blanket statements like 'undergravel filters are useless' are usually untrue. Generally they are considered outdated and there are definite problems with them (like they don't tend to mix well with plants). There are many alternatives available these days that are more effective and less problematic. Most of the sources that recommend underground filters are older or are from 'old time' fishkeepers but you can't argue with the fact that it has worked for them for many years sometimes with very good results.. 

I'm a fan of canister filters myself and had one on a 30 gallon for years. Plenty of canister filters are rated for a 30 gallon tank and I even used a much bigger one without problems. The biggest reason for calling them 'overkill' is probably price. They do tend to be a bit expensive, IMO they are worth the extra but there are other types of filter that are less expensive and will still do a good job on a 30 gallon. When it comes to filters overkill is usually better than underkill. The only thing you have to watch out for is that some fish like ones with long fancy tails can't handle too much water flow. Usually you can get around that problem with a spray bar or decor in the tank that breaks up the current. Most fish enjoy current anyway. 

Have a look at what is available and choose what you like to look of and makes sense to you. Just make sure the filter you choose is plenty for your tank. Some manufacturers tend to overrate their filters so for example if it says it's for a 20-30 gallon tank it's often best to go up a model and get the one that says it's for a 40-60 gallon tank.

As for fish I would go to a store just to look at fish, don't buy any (and don't take any advice). See what you like the look of and write down the names. Then do a bit of research on the web about that fish and ask questions on here. It sounds like you would most like a 'peaceful community' tank. Feel free to ask in the store for suggestions, on peaceful community fish they may point you in the right direction, just make sure you still do our own research before you actually buy fish. Often you will fall in love with a particular fish because of it's color, personality or habits. Then you can find out what that fish needs and what tankmates would work with it. 

Your tank is not tiny but it isn't huge either so keep an eye on how big the fish get and plan to understock to start with at least, that will make it a lot more forgiving to beginner mistakes.


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## petehall

I very much appreciate the thoughtful advice and the time taken. I am leaning towards a cannister, I like the overkill approach and I like the fact I dont have to look at it all the time. My garage sale tank came with a cabinet and I can hide the device and cut down on the noise. I am also leaning towards something colorful and small like a tetra to start with. 

Which variety of plant life would you folks suggest? Or should I stay with plastic and keep it simple?

Peter Hall


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## Crazy

Live plants trump all, but what kind of plants depends on the light. Just normal t8 strip lights can do anacharis, java fern, willow hygro, and a few others but just make sure they are low light plants.


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## jrman83

Easier plants (not so dependent on level of light) are Java Fern, any var. Anubias, any var. Cryptocoryn, mosses, Red Ludwigia, most Swords, Cobomba, Bacopa, and a few others. Just keep in mind Swords can get exceptionally large and nearly smother a smaller tank.

I would take a look in the for sale section on here. You'll find them cheaper and a larger variety more than likely.

Just make sure you have plant type bulbs. Anything in the 5500k-10000k kelvin rating works.


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## clep.berry

Go for the canister - just don't forget that it too needs maintenance!
While on that subject, most of us here don't use carbon and use our filters for mechanical (removing physical objects) and biological (converting ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate) and just replace it with more bio or sponge media when the time comes.

Having a tank full of plants now, I can say there are 3-4 that are brilliant for beginners in a low light tank (Low light is usually under 1W/gal with bulbs that are less than 12 months old - colours shift mind you and after 12 months most need replacing).
Favorites are:

Java fern: The way this grows and reproduces is lovely to watch and interesting too.
Hygro Difformis: The variation in leaves depending on how much light is also very appealing
Hygro Sunset: Again, variation between well illuminated red leaves and the plain green lower down.
Vallis: a classic simple easy plant to grow.

I'm experimenting with willow hygro and riccia myself now but I can't wait to get my BIG lights and get some amazing growth going on!

After that, my next step will be CO2 so there's always a better somethingorother!
cb


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## snail

Did your tank come with a light, or do you need to buy one? If you want to keep it simple for now low light plants are probably the way to go.

Another thing I like about canister filters a good one is very quiet. I have to put my ear practically against mine to know if it's running. I did have a slightly noisy one once in our bedroom, in that case having it in a cupboard is handy.


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## petehall

Actually it did come with a light. Aqua Rays Fresh & Saltwater bulb, made in Hungary actually. I think this may be the first item I have ever owned that was made in Hungary.... My sense is I did pretty well for 30 bucks with my garage sale purchase.......hopefully the tank won't leak.

Thanks again. I am still a bit amazed by this site. I participate in two other such sites (for my profession and my other passion, sailing) and the vitriol can get rather extreme at times. 

I appreciate the helpful and cordial nature of you folks.

Peter Hall


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## snail

petehall said:


> Actually it did come with a light. Aqua Rays Fresh & Saltwater bulb, made in Hungary actually. I think this may be the first item I have ever owned that was made in Hungary.... My sense is I did pretty well for 30 bucks with my garage sale purchase.......hopefully the tank won't leak.


Sounds like a good deal with a stand and light. Sometimes the seal on old tanks isn't good, but chances are it's okay. Even if it does leak it's not that hard to fix with a tube of silicone and a bit of elbow grease .

Is it just one bulb? Is there more information on it like T8, T5, Watts, 'daylight' or Kelvin? That will help us tell you were you stand on light.


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## petehall

Yes, just one bulb, 20 watt, not quite 2 feet long. Says AquaRays Fresh & Saltwater on it.

By the way, I was a practicing veterinarian for many years. I am here to tell you they do not teach anything about fish in vet school.......

Peter Hall


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## snail

petehall said:


> Yes, just one bulb, 20 watt, not quite 2 feet long. Says AquaRays Fresh & Saltwater on it.


Okay assuming its a T8 fixture, for a 30 gallon that puts you in the very low light range but you can still grow nice plants if you select them carefully and are patient about the growth rate. If you upgrade your lighting a bit you will have more choice in plants and faster growth. You don't want to get into 'high light' unless you want to get more high tech with CO2 and ferts too.



> By the way, I was a practicing veterinarian for many years. I am here to tell you they do not teach anything about fish in vet school.......


lol, vets are not famous for their good advice round here . To be fair you can't learn about all the animals out there. Most of the time there isn't a whole lot a vet can do anyway. The majority of problems are caused by stress or poor water quality and are best treated with clean water or a larger tank etc, not meds.


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## petehall

RE: Lighting
So is there a middle of the road lighting option you would suggest? My tank is actually going in my office and there are no windows at that location. 

RE: Being a Veterinarian
As a practicing small animal veterinarian I was honest when people asked me about their fish problems. I told them that they were better off asking a talented aquarium expert. At the time I was practicing I was friendly with a man who did aquarium installations for homes and businesses; I would refer to him. 
The best I could offer was obtaining dead fish or tissue sample pathology services if they were truly motivated to find the answers. I just acted as a middle man and sent the samples off for what we call "histo."

Once again, thank you folks,
Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

I searched for that fitting online and came up with a 10 year old T12.
This means that you have 1/2 the light per volume of my 2011 low light tank which uses end of life T8 fittings.
T12 are completely obsolete I'm afraid.
On that tank, good light (low-medium light) would be about 30W of T5 lighting or 40W of T8 go much above that and you're likely to start needing CO2, ferts and frequent pruning depending on the plant species.
For my tank, I'm looking at going for twice that and will likely need a whole lot more equipment as a result.
The good news is that you can most likely just upgrade the fittings themselves and you should be able to get a single 35-45W T5 to do the job.
You could also have a look at LEDs but they tend to steal a fair chunk of cash for something good!
cb


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## snail

clep.berry said:


> I searched for that fitting online and came up with a 10 year old T12.


Are you sure it's a T12. I had a quick look and thought it was a T8 bulb but I'll look again.



> T12 are completely obsolete I'm afraid.


There are certainly more efficient types of lighting but it will still grow plants. To be honest T8 are getting pretty outdated but I still run a tank with them and it works, there is always something newer and better it's just a case of what you want and how much you can spend on it.

petehall- As it stands it is a very low light tank. You can actually have a surprisingly nice planted tank with very low light, I've done it before. Things like Anubias, Java Moss, Java Fern, Bolbitis Fern, and Crypts will grow with very little light, it takes a long time though. Most people get impatient with slow plant growth or the very limited list of plants they can grow and end up upgrading.


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## jrman83

T12's obsolete? You can buy bulbs still.


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## petehall

I have been poking around about lighting options. Is LED lighting for a freshwater tank with live plants feasible in terms of an appropriate amount and frequency of light in a somewhat cost effective manner?

Humbled by my ignorance ,
Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

LEDs - from what I've read and am about to experience are the best - if you buy the good stuff. TMC reportedly make some of the best out there which is why I have bought those. No direct experience yet though - but plenty of anecdotal evidence out there.

It seems though that LEDs do best without a canopy as the extra ventilation extends their useful service life. If this is of the order of 20% - that's another year!

As for T12s being obsolete for planted aquariums - I cannot find a single current production tank that uses them - hence I think I'm justified in calling the technology obsolete. 

cb


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## beaslbob

welcome

you might take a look at the methods in the link in my signature. 

then again you might not. *old dude

best tank ever.

my .02


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## ElChef194

so pete, i just planted my tanks. i am reletively new at the fish hobby as i have been at it for a year, with plants for maybe a month. you seem sold on canisters, and i have nothing against them. i invested in an AquaClear filter. it is a HoB filter, and as mentioned earlier on, yes you can see the intake tube in the tank, but it is clear. this has two advantages: 1) it is barely visable, 2) when it clogs, i know where. also, the only noise from my filters (aquaclear and aqueon quiet flow) comes if i need to prime them during a large waterchange and when the returning water enters the tank as the return is in my case 1/2 inch above water level. if i fill to reduce that distance, there is no noise whatsoever.

as for plants, here is what i have running 24" T8 / 17W full spectrum fluorescent bulbs. these light a 29 gal tank an amazon sword, oriental sword, anubias, java fern, and micro swords and a slowly dissappearing red ludwigia (due to fish). the only dark spots are on my javas. i did suffer minor leaf loss during my first week. i also started with wisteria i planted in the sand and it was pulled out by my fish, floated, withered, died and clogged my filter. in one week. in my 56 gal, which i am cycling, with an identical light setup i have 3 amazon swords (purchased large) 2 bunches moneywort (total of 20ish stalks) java fern, micro sword, and anacharis floating in corners (for my gourami).

also, if you are doing plants figure out your substrate. some people swear by dirt. some by fluorite. i use the latter in my 56 gal. in my 29 gal, i use larite (spelling?) it is packaged by API as "first layer pure larite(again?)" in both tanks i use fertilizer tabs and liquid plantfood.

i use CO2 in neither tank as both have airstones and keep the water moving, allowing aeration.

this, again is what I am doing. you may learn other methods, maybe more successful. i still cannot gauge longterm on my plants, but in my 29 gal, i noticed enough to be satisfied with my starting methods. time will tell if my maintenance methods hold true.

as for fish. well they are your pets so you decide what you want but that cory recommendation would be worth looking into. once they get comfortable, they are active, curious, and playful fish. and i would consider the plants pets as well in so far as the need to feed, groom, and generally care for them. 

one thing i will tell you is a necessity for a planted tank: a light timer. sweet biscuits and gravy it makes things less complicated. especially since you will have the tank at your office.


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## Big Dog

Welcome to the forum.


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## petehall

Really good post ElChef. Thank you very much. I am going to print it out and use it well. I am still waiting for my book from Amazon, it seems a bit delayed. But I almost feel like I could pull this off with all the help you folks have given me. 

And for sure this time I will test the water much much more carefully. And by cruising the strings in here it has helped me crystallize which way to go in terms of plants, lighting and fish selection.

Peter Hall
Maine, USA


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## jrman83

Just stay away from anyone's self proclamtion of "best tank ever"....it's definitely not!! Do that and you'll be fine and have something nice to look at everyday.

Also, a very easy/inexpensive substrate to use is a product called safe-t-sorb, sold be Tractor supply Company. $5 for 40lbs. That's enough to do a 75g tank. I use in 3 of my tanks. Needs a good rinsing but all my plants seem to love it.


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## petehall

What is best way to clean it? Strainer and tap water?

I am about half way through The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums by David Boruchowitz. Have to say it is pretty good for beginners. He says in the beginning that the attrition rate for newbies like myself is very very high (at least 2/3 within the first year). Lots of tips are in this book without being overwhelming. 

I must say it does require a bit of patience though....I am still staring an empty tank as I type this and everyone keeps asking me when the hell am going to stop reading and get some fish?........

You folks are definitely helping a great deal.

Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

Peter, how empty is empty?
By now you should have some substrate and be part-way through cycling your tank by adding ammonia (without fish) and have an idea of what lights and plants you want - or have some valis with that 20W fitting in there - it will grow and look quite pretty...
cb


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## petehall

Empty as holding in nothing but air.......
I did stick a picture of a fish to the side of the tank with a little 
scotch tape. Does that count? 

I decided to read up on this whole project first before starting. 

I am determined to do this right this time. 

But as they say....the best things in life are worth waiting for.

Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

Pete... no need to get the fish but get some gravel already and start cycling.
You'll have at least 4 weeks to read before you have cycled your tank so start there.
Oh... you could get a remote controlled submarine or boat to play with while it's cycling 
cb


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## ElChef194

i agree with clep. get some gravel in that tank and start cycling that sucker. you will have plenty of time to read up on fish and it will also give you a chance to see firsthand how you water params are doing, and any work that needs to be done. also, you will be able to easier decide on fish types once you know how your water is going to turn out (unless you want to buy the water changing chems out there)

plus like he said, it takes four weeks.


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## petehall

Okay, I will get myself over to Tractor Supply for some substate and get this thing going............

Because really what is the point of me getting all this great advice if I dont follow it?

Although one point of discrepancy is that the book I am reading says don't add chemicals like ammomia to the tank...it is just an invitation to problems. Granted I am only part way through the book. But what is urged is to add just a few of a very hardy species to get the ball rolling in regards to nitrogen cycling.

Peter Hall

Peter Hall


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## ElChef194

adding the ammonia is called a fishless cycle. adding the fish is another way to cycle the tank. they both establish a tank well, and you will need very hardy fish. they will likely die otherwise. giant danios got my first tank set up. neon tetras are a hardy cheap fish that you won't regret spending the $ on should they die. minnows are also very good.

another method is to get a dead fish from your LFS to start you cycle. this gets the bacteria going pretty quickly. 

all you are looking for is ammonia production and bacteria development, followed by ammonia reduction and nitrate production, followed by nitrite production then reduction. as said before, plants will help in this last part. 

dosing ammonia is a surefire way to start and control your cycle. it causes no harm or discomfort to already living fish as there will be no fish in your tank.


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## clep.berry

about that dead fish... don't... Unless you know it's COD and that it was clear of everything else (Quarantined for 8 weeks and then killed for this purpose)
And Neons are not the hardiest either - some suggest getting them a year into the hobby.
Best try the fishless cycle and get an API master test kit so you can determine if you are ready for fish - easy, accurate and no harm done.
cb


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## petehall

API master test kit it is....I have it on my list.
Thankyou.


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## ElChef194

no go on the dead fish? i never did it, but the owner of my LFS store said he uses that method. i guess he knows a bit more about how the fish died and how it was kept though. he never gave a lot of details on it though, just said it would work.


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## petehall

I am still in the deciding stage and trying to keep an open mind. But I think I will skip the dead fish part.....just kind of creeps me out. I am not a squeamish guy, but starting with a dead fish seems just kind of wrong...no matter how logical it is.


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## ElChef194

no I agree, it was just recommended to me. guy said it was cheapest method cuz a dead fish is a free fish. I used fish in cycle with danios and tetras on my tanks. my new tank employed a filter and decor from another running tank.


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## beaslbob

The saltwater guys use shrimp as in a food type shrimp. and just let it rot in the tank.

While it does work lotsa people report a cloudy smelly tank in the process.

By contrast using live plants consumes the ammonia directly and carbon dioxide while returning oxygen. Just add 1 fish and wait a week before adding food. then stock up and start very ight feedings.

my .02


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## petehall

So I am toying with LED lighting, it does not seem ungodly expensive and I am a bit of an energy conservation freak.
I read lots of "stuff" on lighting, but LED seems to be something people have less experience with.

I am heading towards a lower light situation with slow growing plants that are comfortable with less light. How much do I need with LED? Or maybe a better question is what source or supplier is trustworthy in this area? I see many links to suppliers.

Thanks,
Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

I'm trying (literally waiting for courier) on these:
AquaRay | LED Lights | GroBeam
A pair of the top ones should be enough for low light. 3 would be low-medium and 4 would be high.
There seems to be a trend with returns on LED units that if mounted inside a hood with little or no cross-ventilation, they fail prematurely.
That's why I'm losing my hood and hanging these over the tank - hopefully my shrimp don't decide to fly.
cb


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## Summer

welcome


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## petehall

Yes, I have to say the learning part of this is fun. 
By the way, I think I met you in the "chat room." Thank you for the help.

As a total aside, Ben Franklin has lots of really great quotes:
Benjamin Franklin Quotes - BrainyQuote

Update: Got filter, gravel, test kit, timer.....slowly but surely I will end up with a functional tank. Patience is not my strong suit, but I will keep working on it....

Peter hall


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## clep.berry

You know, if patience isn't your strong suit, you're doing pretty darn well!
By this stage, I had already killed a fish for sure first time round!
cb


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## petehall

And also I forgot to mention I followed your advice and ordered the lights you suggested. 

Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

Shoot - that wasn't advice... I still haven't got mine and I haven't tested them yet!
But... I know the rep of the guys that produce them . TMC = SOLID
Well, we'll be able to compare notes.
What I've read about LEDs is that they really like good ventilation - that's for their longevity. I'm suspending mine above the tank - doesn't get more ventilated than that!
cb


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## petehall

Once I saw what you were doing I naturally started google searching and looking into it. I think it is a pretty good decision you made. But you are right, it is hard to know till we actually use it. I guess if I was really smart I would have done an economic analysis of purchase price, longevity, energy consumption and other variables. 
But on the other hand I think I had just reached a point where it was time to just get the ball rolling. I need to get my tank cycling, the abuse I am getting from others regarding my slow pace was reaching epic proportions....

I am still toying with a bubbler of some sort. I guess it is not really necessary but I confess I find the sound of bubbles soothing. 

Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

Bubbles negate the benefits of CO2 to a large degree. I have an air pump but its mostly restricted to clearing the surface of film on bad days and reducing the effect of a new CO2 bottle at night when the CO2 mixture's new.

I predict you'll have DIY CO2 before the month is over and pressurized within 18 months.
cb


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## clep.berry

Thought I might show you what's grown under 15W in 15g - and now upgraded to 2x 12W Grobeam LEDs as of today:

cb


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## petehall

Okay, that is a great photo. If I get what you have I will be a happy newbie. Really looks good. 

By the way thanks for all your help. I am awaiting supplies such as lights, filter, test kit, etc, etc.... to get things going. 

I am still contemplating you comment on CO2. You are probably right. But step by step.....

Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

Peter,
Like I said before, this is with 1W/Gal of T8 lighting. I've made LOTS of mistakes, had to ditch LOTS of plants and killed plenty of fish to get here.
This is my FIRST planted tank - so, I'm sure you can do as well! 
My substrate could have been a lot better and understanding fertilization could have brought me a lot closer sooner.
It's actually taken this long to get some of the plants I want because some are not for sale (Illegal for sale but possession isn't as bad).
Recent additions are the willow hygro and riccia. I really like the riccia as it pearls a LOT with the new lighting and the CO2.
The Swords seem to be dividing at the rhizome 6 months on so I have already split one, the second I'll try next week.
One thing I have noticed is that a lot of plants have been grown out emersed with much longer stalks than their tanked counterparts - so a background plant actually becomes a foreground plant once it settles!
Whatever you do, Enjoy!
cb


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## jrman83

CO2 is an awesome addition to any planted tank. Some will say you don't need it and they are probably right, but most of those that say it have never experienced what your plants will do once you add it. I would play around with DIY for a little bit and then if you get tired of doing mixtures go for pressurized. Pressurized moves you into an area where you have the ability to overdo it and can very easily kill your fish. It requires daily monitoring to some level, and you'll want to make sure you already know where to get them filled long before you run out. Just be sure to read up on proper monitoring and make sure you have the controls in place and you will be fine.


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## clep.berry

My tank with CO2 produces this beautiful Riccia, pearling and thriving.
That's the warmest and fuzziest feelings my plants have produced.
This was taken 10-15 mins ago.
Now tell me you won't do CO2!
cb
PS be sure to see this full-size!


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## petehall

That is definitely impressive as hell.

CO2 sounds great; to be honest I had never heard of using it before. I mean from a plant physiology standpoint it makes perfect sense, it just never crossed my mind. I was not quite so bad that I thought putting a beta in a bowl was a good idea; but it is clear I have far to go.

Lots to learn, that is for sure. But hey, that is part of the fun of this whole thing.

But first things first.....still waiting for UPS guy to drop by with all my toys so I can get the process going.

Once again, that is a terrific photo.

petehall


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## petehall

Okay the box of supplies finally showed up with a friendly UPS guy.

My plan this week is to rinse my Saf Tsorb, put it in the tank, set up the cannister, add water and the chemical to eliminate the chlorine. Mount the fancy LED lights and see if the tank leaks...
Then I plan on going to get some lower light plants and let the tank cycle for a month while familiarizing myself with testing etc.
Am I missing anything? What about plant fertilizer?

Thanks,
Peter Hall


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## clep.berry

There are so many permutations, it's hard to see if you're missing anything.
What method are you going to use to cycle the tank? Look at the sticky posts in these forum for fishless cycling - that would be my chosen method. This involves dosing with ammonia without fish in the tank.
Safe T Sorb seems to require a LOT of washing - I'm not familiar with it so I shan't comment further.
Plant ferts are very important to control algae. Probably the hardest part of keeping a good planted tank algae free. From what I've seen, one of the easier methods for balancing ferts is the estimative index method of fertilization. 
Here's a nice site/link for giving you a good breakdown on what's needed for that:
Fertilizing the Planted Tank | Nutrients | Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks
You'll probably end up using syringes for fertilization or dosing dry ferts long-term. I'd suggest the dry dosing straight off the bat. You're smart enough to figure out the methods yourself reading the link a few times and keeping a journal.
Remember that a certain volume is always taken up by plumbing, heaters, plants, gravel. It's harder to determine how much decor takes up but 10-15% won't be that far off.
Otherwise - enjoy and start worrying about what's going to happen when you go on vacation!
cb


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## Chandavi

Welcome! I too am getting back into the hobby after a long down-time. Best of luck to you in getting your new setup running just the way you like it. As other posters have suggested, your overall plan should be based on the type of fish you wish to keep. From what I have seen, decide first on fish, then on plants to support them, then on hardware to support the ecosystem. Of course, things have to be deployed in the opposite order, so a solid plan is a must! If you haven't started a fishless cycle, I would recommend getting that started as soon as possible. There are plenty of great guides out there. A proper cycle can take between a week and a month or so, depending on your setup, procedure, and luck. 

Live plants help immensely with parameter upkeep, so I would certainly suggest them. Plus, they look very very nice. Vallisneria and Anubias are two of my favorites, but consider plants that will work for _your _needs. With regards to fish, the first thing I would suggest would be to take into consideration _where_ each fish will live inside your tank, in all three dimensions. Some fish require a relatively large area "footprint" for their territory, and active swimmers need enough room to freely move around without fear of walls. Additionally, consider the vertical habitation of your tank. Some fish remain primarily high in the water, some remain in the middle, and others hang out on the floor. Planning for and including fish that prefer different depths can really help prevent conflicts. As for specific recommendations, I second the previous suggestion of cory cats as a mid-bottom dweller. They are one of my favorites and love to school. I'm actually getting back into the hobby with them - no better place to (re)start than your favorites, right? Look at all the diverse fish you _could_ keep and then decide what you like best. It is your tank after all!


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## snail

Your need for ferts depends a lot on how fast the plants are growing. If you push up growth rate with higher light and CO2 plants will begin to lack nutrients for healthy growth. You also need to do larger water changes to flush out left over ferts. With high tech tanks you get locked into a kind of balancing act which requires careful monitoring and extra maintenance. Of course you also get quicker results and may be able to get results that are not possible with low tech. Some people enjoy playing with technical stuff.

What substrate are you going to use? A low tech, low light tank with a nutrient rich substrate may not need any ferts for a couple of years. With plain gravel or sand you can use root tabs or occasional ferts into the water but the need for ferts is still low as long as the growth rate of the plants is low.


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## petehall

Two Steps Forward, One Step Backwards................

1. The garage sale aquarium leaked,,,,buyer beware. O well, NBD, got another one at a pet store. 

And the folding glass top I bought over the internet for it came with a giant chip in it.......yikes. Time to call customer service on that one.

2. After poking around in here and on the web I decided to try SafTSorb as a substrate which I bought at Tractor Supply. I tried to rinse SaftSorb......the stuff never seems to stop giving off dirty water. I stuck it in a big dry wall type bucket with a garden hose inserted and rinsed for an eternity. Never came clean. And even after letting it sit overnight......still cloudy.

3. Changing gears......thinking a 50:50 shot of Eco Complete with course gravel next. You folks ever try this stuff? Looks good........but...........????

I wil take your folks good advice on plant species. 

Well as always I am best at persistance and maybe short on judgement sometimes. I will make this happen. Because after all looking at that photo CB posted I have a goal to shoot for. 

Peter Hall


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## jrman83

Safe-t-sorb can be a pain to rinse. You may never get it to run completely clean using the method you described. I use it in a few of my tanks. Best method I have found is constantly stirring it for about 30min with fresh water running into the bucket. The really great thing is it only takes about 1/2 of a 5g bucket to get to the amount you need for a 20g tank....adjust for your size if different. A little goes a long way in other words. After 30min of rinsing just put in the tank and it should settle pretty fast - within a couple of hours. When I did my kid's 75g tank, it was instantly clear. Just be sure to deflect the incoming water to keep from stirring.


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## snail

It's not that hard to reseal a tank so when you decide you are ready for your second tank you could give it a go 

HOW TO: Reseal an aquarium - YouTube


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## Aquasafe

Welcome!


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## petehall

Just an update on my "new old" hobby. First off I wish to thank this site and those individuals who posted on this string for their help. I have proceeded very slowly. I built a custom hood, put substrate in, bought plants, waited, waited some more.....carefully monitored parameters and debated how I wanted to cycle.

Decided since all I wanted was small fish anyway I put in 2 otocinclus to deal with my growing algae problem. I was warned that they were fragile and not a good fish for beginners. I change 10 percent of the water every day and keep testing. I have not had any spike in ammonia. Perhaps I will, but I plan on doing nothing for a month or two to see. The bioload from the small fish I have is hopefully small enough to cause only a slow change in my bacterial population.

So I went and got 6 neon tetras; what may be the most common fish for beginners like me? I have had these for about a week now. They sit in front of my desk all day and keep me amused. I hope I have given them a good home. 

So far so good. 

Thank you for all your help. I readily confess I cruised this site extesively to come up with a plan. 

Peter Hall


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## peterbright

Greetings...I am of the school that it is virtually impossible to over filter a tank...you can create too much current for some fish but that isn't too difficult to figure out.


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