# Two part Q: Real sand or rocks / Ammonia



## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## dante322 (Jan 15, 2012)

> ok i got two questions which is better the pet store gravel or real sand like play sand?


personal preference. I have one tank with gravel that cost a lot and one tank with playsand that was cheap. They both look good. Do you have live plants? thats an important factor in choosing substrate.



> how much amonia in a living established tank is ok? i have had this tank now for about two months with fish in it. 12 fish total 20 gallon tank, 3 plants and some ghost shrimp


If you have any ammonia at all its not an established tank. You should have 0 ammonia, especially if you are doing 30% water changes every three days. What kind of fish do you have? you might be overstocked or overfeeding.


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## vdanker (Jan 3, 2012)

Why do you change water every three days?


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

add more plants especially good fast growers like anacharis.

With thriving plants you should only measure .25ppm ammonia and then for only 1 day max. the plants consume ammonia directly.

Also if you are using a dechlor it is possible the ammonia you are measuring is actually locked and therefore safe(r). But still measures as ammonia on most test kits which cannot tell the difference between locked and free ammonia.

my .02


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## ZachZaf (Jan 26, 2012)

I would say the tank is not established yet... you have drawn out the cycling by removing so much eater so often... the bacteria don't seem to have taken a hold in your filter yet... feeding is ok... unless you are counting the inverts as fish and feeding them two tabs a day. That would do it. Other wide bob is onto something with both the plants and the free vs locked ammonia...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not all dechlors have anything to do with ammonia.

Your tank has not finished cycling yet. Although it may appear that the frequent water changes have prolonged the cycle more, IMO that is not the case. Your bio-load is still getting you to nearly 3ppm ammonia despite the water changes. The water changes you have been doing have been necessary to save the fish you have....which is WAY too many for what has been going on with the tank and likely too many even after the tank becomes established. Whatever you do, don't add anymore fish.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

You are trying to cycle with a fully stocked tank. You can't do that without getting very high Ammonia and Nitrite levels. I would stop feeding your fish for a few days and remove any dead fish ASAP. I don't believe in extensive water change during cycling. It distorts Nitrite and Ammonia readings during cycling. Bacteria populations need these chemicals as food to multiply and establish a good Ammonia-Nitrite-Nitrate cycle. Once cycling is complete (Ammonia and Nitrite levels very low) you need to remove Nitrate through water changes.


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

awwwww no aquatic plants. that will allow ammonia to rise.

With true aquatic thriving fast growing plants ammonia will be held to unmeasureable levels.

the bioload account for almost all of the ammonia being produced.

Actually there is an equation for the effectiveness of water changes.

assuming a constant increase between water changes or a linear measure (ppm), some constant concentration in the replacement water and a constant fraction of the water changes, and that enough water changes have been done so that the amount before a water changes is constant water change to water change then:

amount before change=amount in replacement water+(increase)/(fraction of change)

for instance assume 3ppm increase with 0 in the replacement water and a 1/10 water change.

amount before change=0+3ppm/(1/10)=30ppm

So the tank would start at 30ppm drop down to 27 after the change then rise to 30 just before the water change.

In order to get the amount before the water change to 0 you have to bring the change between water changes to 0.

Hope that not too confusing.

taking aspirn.

for my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Actually there is an equation for the effectiveness of water changes.
> 
> assuming a constant increase between water changes or a linear measure (ppm), some constant concentration in the replacement water and a constant fraction of the water changes, and that enough water changes have been done so that the amount before a water changes is constant water change to water change then:
> 
> ...


Somewhat confusing to most probably, but has no relevance in this thread. I can't even imagine what you're trying to say. 

Assuming a water with whatever ppm of whatever (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), add in water of whatever amount with 0 ppm of the 3 items listed and the overall ppm of those 3 items goes down. It is diluted no matter whatever formula you want to use. Assuming those 3 items are bad, a water change = good.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

tbillion said:


> "add more plants especially good fast growers like anacharis."
> 
> actually i may have found a small part of the problem, i just bought some plants from a pet store and i figured that they were aquatic, psych, the are terrestrial. lame. so that may contribute as they begin to break down and die.
> 
> ...


Unless you are on well water, I hope you are using something to remove the chlorine/chloramine from the water. If not, you will kill off beneficial bacteria (which will keep the tank from cycling properly) and eventually your fish.

As far as your stocking level, first off at this stage in your tank eastablishing itself you have way too many fish. For a 20g tank, 2-3 fish should have been what you started with and then added more once the nitrogen cycle has been completed - added slowly of course. Your current stock level is too high even in an established tank but if you are doing bi-weekly water changes you can make it work. 1 fish per gallon is not a stocking rule. There is one out there that a lot use to get them ballpark, but it is 1 inch of fish per gallon. Your Bloodfins will get to 2" long. You base things off the size of the fish at their adult fish size since most grow fairly fast.

Stop using chemicals to control ammonia. They will do nothing but slow things down in the nitrogen cycle. Control things by doing water changes. I would suggest you read up on the cycle to understand what your tank is going through....it is just getting started.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Somewhat confusing to most probably, but has no relevance in this thread. I can't even imagine what you're trying to say.
> 
> Assuming a water with whatever ppm of whatever (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), add in water of whatever amount with 0 ppm of the 3 items listed and the overall ppm of those 3 items goes down. It is diluted no matter whatever formula you want to use. Assuming those 3 items are bad, a water change = good.


It was a direct answer to the poster's question:



OP said:


> Your bio-load is still getting you to nearly 3ppm ammonia despite the water changes" how do u figure this? is it an equation or just a guess


You might try giving the equation another look. It did take me many years to figure out why tanks with weekly water changes had 100ppm++++ nitrates. Yet my tanks with no water changes had unmeasureable nitrtes and phosphates.

Or possibly another thread discussing the effectiveness of water changes.

Still just my .02


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Unless you are on well water, I hope you are using something to remove the chlorine/chloramine from the water. If not, you will kill off beneficial bacteria (which will keep the tank from cycling properly) and eventually your fish.
> 
> As far as your stocking level, first off at this stage in your tank eastablishing itself you have way too many fish. For a 20g tank, 2-3 fish should have been what you started with and then added more once the nitrogen cycle has been completed - added slowly of course. Your current stock level is too high even in an established tank but if you are doing bi-weekly water changes you can make it work. 1 fish per gallon is not a stocking rule. There is one out there that a lot use to get them ballpark, but it is 1 inch of fish per gallon. Your Bloodfins will get to 2" long. You base things off the size of the fish at their adult fish size since most grow fairly fast.
> 
> Stop using chemicals to control ammonia. They will do nothing but slow things down in the nitrogen cycle. Control things by doing water changes. I would suggest you read up on the cycle to understand what your tank is going through....it is just getting started.


I totally agree..if you have 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates but have ammonia (without the use of tabs) your cycle is just beginning..your lfs told you to do way to many water changes..those ammonia tabs will help with ammonia but you need the ammonia to complete the cycle. i believe there is a stcky here on cycling tanks..read that and you will understand the process..but keep an eye on the ammonia for the fishes sake... good luck..let us know how it turns out.

Rick


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Maybe you should read the whole thread and not just parts so you're up on what is being talked about and who said what.



beaslbob said:


> It was a direct answer to the poster's question:


Wrong. The OP was asking how I came up the fact he was getting to 3ppm on ammonia and whether it was an equation or a guess. The answer was neither...it was what he posted...that he was getting to 3ppm on ammonia. My comment was related to water changes slowing things down in the cycle like what was mentioned, which could not be the case if he was still reaching 3ppm everyday and doing water changes. 



beaslbob said:


> You might try giving the equation another look. It did take me many years to figure out why tanks with weekly water changes had 100ppm++++ nitrates. Yet my tanks with no water changes had unmeasureable nitrtes and phosphates.
> 
> Or possibly another thread discussing the effectiveness of water changes.
> 
> Still just my .02


My math, you mean...the OP did not put this in here like you quoted. I don't have to look at any math. If a tank has 100ppm of nitrates and I change 50% of the water, it now has approx. 50ppm. That is very simple math in my mind. It does not take rocket science to figure out if you start at 50ppm, it can easily go up from there...BUT, the water change doesn't cause that occurance. Any planted tank can achieve very low nitrates and water changes. 

0 or unmeasurable nitrates in a planted tank is NOT good. If you want to prove that to ANYONE, please post a pic of ANY of your plants and anyone will be able to see that it is not the goal they should try to attain. It will be abundently obvious at the site of the health of your plants!!! If at any point your tanks do reach 0 nitrates the plants have reached a point where they cannot intake anymore...or there is none to intake. If the light is still on, the plant will still try to do this because the light is forcing it to try and react or grow from the light and intake nutrients. This is the same for ALL nutrients to include CO2. Now add a higher light on top of the tank, like in the 3-4WPG equiv. and you have an even worse problem with having 0 nitrates.

Don't take my word for it. Read a current (post 2008) article on plant physiology and find out for yourself.


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

> ...i was just asking if any established tank yours, the lfs or any other had a general specification on the level of ammonia that can exist without harm.


That's just it, typically the tank is not considered established if there is any detectable amount of ammonia. An established tank will process the ammonia immediately. There are instances where you could get mini spikes, but they are usually gone within 24-36hrs - in an established tank.



> i have read alot about the nitogen cycle. and all of it boils down to from what i read is that it is important and there is alot of howtos to get to the important part, but no one says why it is important. i just dont get it and that is reading this forum and other webpages about it... all it comes down to when i read it is balance. what did i miss?


A nitrogen cycle that has established all the necessary beneficial bacteria in an aquarium is important to process the ammonia that the fish are creating through their waste. Otherwise, the ammonia keeps building and endangering your fish. Yes, it is a balance. It's nature. Occurs on land also.



> also what if i dont care if the water cycles? or if the cycle ever finishes? what would this mean long term other than needing an awesome filter?


You should care....this is how the fish stay safe - with establishing or completing the cycle. But, as I said it is nature. It will occur with or without your help - eventually.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

tbillion:

Don't worry about the "discussions' here. Just different means of arriving at the same end.

I would not use ammonia absorbing media but instead of plants to recycle ammonia/nitrates into fish food.

But that's just my .02


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## vdanker (Jan 3, 2012)

Good advice. There may be many solutions to the same problem. When I first started, I tried additives as remedies for different problems. What I have found is that none of them really work as well as patience, plants, and water changes.


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I can't help with the online plant stores, but for the debate, I'm between jrman and beaslbob (much much closer to the former). I think you are on track - overstocked but able to manage that with your water changes. Ideally, you'd be able to gear that down to once a week, but your question about 'not caring', which I take as 'what if the cycle is forever' is legit. A cycled tank is in a state of temporary equilibrium maintained by filtration and water changes. The big three, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are easy to measure and are extremely important, but they are just a part of the picture, and no tank is ever fully, permanently cycled. Beaslbob will pull out his eccentric 'build', which is a very limited application, but the mainstream in the hobby does variations on the jrman's approach.
If I start a new tank (and I do regularly) I make sure it is planted, filtered with water movement and lightly stocked (2-3 fish per ten gallons). I change 25% weekly religiously - I never miss. I don't care about the cycle and don't own a test kit, but I do have an eye for the health of a tank from fishkeeping all my adult life (and even when I was a kid). I haven't crashed a tank or had any health problems from uncycled tanks since I figured out how to control the urge to overstock, a long time ago. The bacteria build up, the system works, and I never overstock. Plants do well, and since my kick is breeding difficult to breed fish, I must be doing something right.
The cycle is an interesting part of the hobby, but to a degree, it can be a misguided explanation for problems. To a degree. I still contend the biggest reason for fish die offs in the early part of a new aquarist's experience is not ammonia, but bad stock from unscrupulous fish farms. In effect, cheap fish raised badly and released into the hobby limping die. If I get fish from a local importer who only deals in wild-caughts, or from other hobbyists, they are easy to acclimate even in a new tank. If I get them from a pet store, they take great attention even in an old tank. I don't blame the store - the problem is earlier in the process, at the farm.
I'm being mildly controversial, I guess, and could be criticized for the old "I've done this forever" approach, but it works. I wish you had half as many fish - if you did, I'd say you're on track, and keep doing what you're doing. Even overstocked, you may well get away with it and have your tank reach a degree of stability you can work with. For that, you'll have be disciplined with maintenance. It's early days - tanks aren't really that good for the first year, until the plants have spread out.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

vdanker said:


> Good advice. There may be many solutions to the same problem. When I first started, I tried additives as remedies for different problems. What I have found is that none of them really work as well as *patience*, plants, and water changes.


And you don't even have to be a doctor to have patience. *old dude


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## vdanker (Jan 3, 2012)

Be careful with plants from Petco; you might end up with an aquarium full of snails.


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

tbillion said:


> ok after about 6 days, no water changes, and no fish loss ammonia stayed at 0 *nitrites only got to about 200 *fish didnt look stressed or any less enthusiastic. today ammonia 0 nitirte 0 nitrate 20 i can call this the end of the cycle i suppose.
> 
> this is probably the wrong forum for this but what effect does electrolysis have on nitrate nitrite and ammonia?


Hopefully that's a typo. most testkits don't measure 200ppm nitrItes or nitrates for that matter as well.

But bottom line it sure sounds like you are doing very very well. *old dude

my .02


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## tbillion (Feb 4, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> Hopefully that's a typo. most testkits don't measure 200ppm nitrItes or nitrates for that matter as well.
> 
> But bottom line it sure sounds like you are doing very very well. *old dude
> 
> my .02


no typo strip measures up to 300. color match by means of software to match paint colors from home depot.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

tbillion said:


> no typo strip measures up to 300. color match by means of software to match paint colors from home depot.


thanks I didn't realize. so I keep learning.



Are you sure it was nitrItes and not nitrAtes?


just my curosity worth at most .02


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