# Can I establish my sump now to jumpstart my tank later?



## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Howdy howdy howdy!

The day is close for adding water to our tank!!! So excited! :fish-in-bowl:
We have a lovely 90g that hubby and I have been lavishly slaving over to make the most awesome newbie tank ever. There is a kickass DIY sump system underneath that has all of our mechanical and biological filtration.

Today we hooked the sump up to itself by running a temporary hose from the return pump right back into the overflow, to check for leaks in our couplings and that the system functions as expected. Success (after some fiddling with couplings, glad we ran this test!)

Now we are wondering, can we start our fishless cycling just using the sump? The main tank is not quite ready to fill (although it's close) - I still need to finish our undergravel jet system, and add our substrate, and day-of-fill buy some plants. I am definitely not going to get to that this weekend. But I can begin dosing the sump with ammonia right away and get the cycle going.

The sump is only 29g, but I'm also curious if I cycle just the sump then hook up the whole system, are we then ready to support a VERY small starter community (like our 10-member neon tetra shoal) and slowly add to our stock every 2-3 weeks, or will there not even be enough bacteria to support this when it is running through the much bigger tank?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If you cycle according to the fishless cycle sticky you should be all good.The amount of ammonia used creates a larger colony of bacteria then slow fish in cycling.If fully cycled by fishless cycle you should be able(and should I believe ) fully stock upon completion.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There has to be continuous water flowing, but I agree, it should work.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Ah, excellent!! I'm going to pick up some ammonia today and begin my fishless cycle! Then I even have some leeway to work longer on the main tank and not rush, since it's going to take a while to cycle.
Although I have no idea where to buy it; I looked at Lowe's yesterday and even had an employee help me and they don't seem to carry pure ammonia at all. I assumed it was a hardware store thing but I guess not?

Thanks guys. I guess it's cycle start day, which feels like a significant milestone


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

It is a hardware store thing, usually. Lowe's doesn't usually have it.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Got the ammonia, and built a Hofer gurgle buster for my overflow because it was really noisy. I think I'm ready to begin. I'm about to do my initial dosing... 1/4tsp 10% ammonia? Maybe 1/8th, I don't want it to be overkill. I've got maybe 20-24g rolling around in the system. I'm going to be super cranky if I overdose and have to do a water change.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html
Read this sticky!
You should dose until you reach 4 ppm ammonia(measure carefully) and then dose that amount daily until you see nitrites.Then(I believe) you dose every other or fourth day.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Yup, I'm on it 
I was just rambling about my initial dosing, I want to make sure I don't dose it over 4ppm. Added 1/8 tsp, testing it in one hour, wish me luck.


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## Avraptorhal (Jan 24, 2013)

In my narrow neck of the woods there is no source for pure ammonia. It looks like Dr. Tim is the only source for me. I have heard that he will send a free bottle of ammonia with an order for his One and Only starter bacteria.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

By day 2 or 3 you will be WAY over 4ppm.That really shouldn't be a problem and is how the fishless cycle moves much quicker than any other.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

My sump water is getting hazy, there is a film of fine bubbles on the top of the water, and it smells a bit off. Good bacteria signs I hope?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Waiting is so boring...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It is better than watching fish die or doing 50% water changes on your 90 every other day?
Spice it up,lets talk about what your going to stock when the time comes.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I like little fish, and my little kids like flashy fish cause they are kids. So ya know, Neon Tetras. My husband likes fancy finned fish. Wants guppies but I need to convince him that their lifespans are too lame to really bother. I'd rather just have one pretty betta than a bunch of guppies having little annoying babies.
I think German Blue Rams are lovely fish in a pair, but someone said they will get pissed off at the little Dwarf Cories that both I and my husband fawned over at the LFS. I might let the dwarf cories go to keep the color/size interest of the rams. They are at least a slightly bigger fish than lots of the other stuff we envision in the tank.

I was also the one mulling last week about an Angel, but I think I've abandoned that idea. "maybe ok" is just not enough assurance for me. I would feel terrible if I did go for some dwarf cories and it ate them. I mean circle of life and all but still. They are such beautiful fish though. Maybe we would sacrifice the dwarf cories (as in not have them to begin with, not let them be eaten). I'm concerned my vision is too homogenous with too many big shoals of little fish (tetras, rasboras, etc) and not enough larger single "showpiece" fish

Rams and Angels are both cichlid family though, correct? Would they fight or would the Angel hang out in a different area of the tank?

I make lists in AqAdvisor every other day, constantly changing my plans 

Things we are set on though:
Neon Tetras 10ish
Rasboras (Harlequin, Black Harlequin) 10ish
Standard Cories, like Julii, 5-7

Hubby is also super in love with Black Mollies and Dalmation Mollies but one of you guys mentioned they are prone to ich? And also prefer brackish. Neither of those things sound very appealing as we're certainly not going to salt the water.

I think everything else is still negotiable and under consideration.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

a peaceful community is a beautiful thing.I love my German rams,but have read they only live for 2 1/2 years.I hope they last longer, but if not 2 of mine have bred 4 times and I've been sucessful raising the fry.I keep cardinals,rummy nose and discus in my 180.And a true center piece fish the roseline shark.They get to be around 6" long and should be in schools of 4-6,but are so peaceful and beautiful I wouldn't go with out(got around 11).Plenty of other tetras out there.All my rams are in spieces only/breeding tanks,but kribensis do well in the community as well(got 2{thank God as they bred a little over a year ago in my 180 and I had like 80!}).2 is nice!


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I read a post from you about roseline sharks at some point. Went to research them and I was sad they are so big! They are lovely.

Your 180g must be amaaaazing!!!!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

They're worth the space and will not mess with anyone!My cardinals and rummynose pay them no mind.I think the rummynose kind of look like mini roselines(slightly different coloring).Now my 11 (some being 10 years old) clown loaches know how to stir the whole tank up!I call them the NY Giants!
a 90 is a decent home for a school of 5-6 roselines!They would be fine with any small fish and besides having fish of different color,having different sizes is part of what makes a tank look "natural" to me.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Too rich for my blood, at least as a novice and until I really know what I am doing  Our LFS definitely doesn't have them and they are $38 each at Live Aquaria!

I'm just glad my husband hasn't asked me how much I have spent on this aquarium project so far. Good thing I take care of the finances in our house


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Petsmart(I knowa four letter word) has them smoetimes for like $8 and even puts them on sale for $5.I never buy any fish from them ,BUT I did get my last 6 or so from them as they are $25+ at my lfs.They are usaully small and lacking the color of adults,but not to worry they are the real thing.They really are a great community fish and never heard one complaint from anyone who followed this recommendation.
You got a 90g and want a peaceful community of small fish.IT'S SCREAMING FOR ROSELINES!


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## choutman (Mar 6, 2012)

you mentioned pygmy cories I love mine they often school up with the neon tetras lol ...fun fish to watch...cant wait to see your tank all set up!!


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Been a week and still no change in levels, ammonia still high and nitrites still zero. Hubby and I are speculating that we messed up the cycle we were building when we filled the big tank and hooked it all up. We did put Prime in the big tank when we filled it with water but before we ran it through the sump, so there should not have been any untreated tap water going into the sump with chlorine.
But is it normal to be a week and still no change?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Are you adding ammonia daily?Should be the same amount you used to get you to 4ppm(which also probly changed with the increased water volume).Seems a little slow BUT every tank is different.The prime likely converted some of the ammonia to a less toxic form,but it will still register on your test the same!


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I haven't been continually dosing, just checking every day that the ammonia is at 4ppm. I did read the fishless cycle sticky several times but there were differing instructions for dosing, one said to dose every day regardless of ppm, one said to maintain at 4ppm. In absence of clarity I opted to maintain. So, should I switch to daily dose regardless of ppm?

i did do a new dose of course when we filled the main tank to bring it up to 4ppm


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There's the problem. Read the fishless cycle thread again. If you don't add everyday, the same amount, it will just hang there.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

1^Dose daily till nitrites show!
Without fish it really does not matter how high levels get.the nitrites show up because of the ammonia.....


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Beyond the first day I don't test for ammonia until a few days after nitrites show. It is just a useless test. They are going to be high and they aren't going anywhere for a while. Once the nitrites are rising to pretty high levels, then you have to assume ammonia is dropping, so you test for it to be sure.

I read your whole response this time. You are right, there are two sets of directions in that thread. I edited it because so many people were not liking the seemingly stalled cycles. Both ways will get you there. One just usually gets you there quicker.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

All righty. I will just start dosing every day with my 4ppm dose and stop testing for it, and wait a few days to test for nitrites.
Thanks for the responses


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Here's our tank, we finished the hardscaping yesterday.
Needs a bunch of plants, I need to get over to my LFS
Sorry about the blaring lights, my cabinet doors for the hood recently arrived and I need to get them stained and installed.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

My nitrite test just turned ever so vaguely blue instead of teal!
YAY! Finally have some liftoff!


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I saw some roseline sharks at my LFS, so pretty!

Anyway, nitrite levels are rising and the tank has a visible bacteria bloom. Close!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

half dose, every 4 days


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Yup, on it.

Today nitrites fly clear off the charts within 30 seconds of mixing the test vial. Can't be long now!


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I was poking around another forum and I see that many people agree that nitrites cannot be allowed to rise "off the charts". My nitrite vial turns purple almost immediately. I read that I should be doing a WC to bring it back to a readable range or I will be stalling my cycle.

Is that something that "we" do here? I've never seen anyone here mention this.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

OK no one is reading this anymore but on the off chance someone is, my results are super confusing today.

Ammonia - 8ppm or higher
NitrItes - suddenly at .25 or less
NitrAtes - 0

???
Nothing has changed. Last night I had NitrItes at 5ppm. What is going on? Why is my ammonia so high and where did the NitrItes go if there are no NitrAtes?
My last ammonia dosing was on Saturday, so it's not like I am overdosing it now


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

still reading and don't sweat it.I have no scientific explanation(and the cycle is all science), but I would say things are going well.Stick to directions in sticky or even better from jr.
Don't worry about your pH now either as you be doing a large water change before stocking(read that one too).
If you really want a hint of what your water pH will be then take sample of your source and let it sit for 24 hrs(an air pump is a goo thing to have going in bucket).After 24 hrs the outgassing and stabilisimg of your water is more stable and you will see "ballparkingly" where your tank will be.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Also I thought it was my imagination but the water is cloudier looking today, so I'll take that as a good sign. May be a NitrIte eating bacteria bloom. Maybe I just picked exactly the wrong time to test the water and caught it right in the middle (although I am still confused why my ammonia level remains so high)

I'm just overthinking this... I hope


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

No such thing as a nitrite eating bacteria bloom, although I agree you may be seeing a bloom. Although, at this point in your cycle I wouldn't say that it is necessarily a good sign. Nitrites going off the charts when fish are in the tank. Nothing to hurt and you can't hurt water.

Did you happen to test again? For both the nitrite and nitrate test? The nitrate test can be very tricky if you are not used to conducting it and if you don't do exactly right the result will be off.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Hm... that is not great news.
I will go run the tests again, even though it was only an hour ago. But I did have my kids distracting me, so maybe I did something wrong.
Be back in a few


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

All right. NitrItes have actually dropped even lower in the last hour and are now basically 0. They are ever so slightly bluer than the base but baaarely.
NitrAtes are definitely 0, I was very exacting when running the test and following the directions exactly.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm trying to think of what I could have done if this is NOT a good sign.

I added 2 gallons of water to the system via the sump last night, after running my evening water testing. But evening water testing already had NitrItes just a BIT lower than I'm used to seeing lately. It was slightly less purple. I would still call it a 5.0 but I have definitely seen darker in recent days.

I worry because the water I added to the system was hot. The entire system had dropped a bit in temp from where I wanted it (still trying to find the sweet spot on my heaters) so I figured I may as well add the water hot. The way the sump is built, the area I add water to is not my intake area that has the trays of mechanical media and the bio-balls and the water has to go all the way into the tank and across it to the overflow box, so in theory nothing I do on the pump side of the sump should directly affect my biological factory. The water could not still by hot by the time it made it over there.

That said, oin the outtake area I do have a bag of gravel from my LFS. Is it possible that was the ONLY nitrifying bacteria in the whole system and I killed it with too hot water? I don't understand what else it can be if I stopped producing nitrItes.

However even that could not possibly explain the existing nitrItes going down, because the only thing that will eliminate that is the stage 2 bacteria, correct?

The new water of course had a smidge of Prime but it was just a SMIDGE, we're talking a few drops per gallon. Definitely not enough to neutralize the nitrItes in the system.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

API nitrite tests only read as high as 5, so anything over the color will not change. Same with all type of API tests. Prime doesn't neutralize anything but chlorine/chloramines. You would still read nitrites/ammonia no matter how much you put in there. It supposedly makes it harmless to your fish, but will still test positive.

You have added ammonia in what manner? The water has been steadily moving through this system? Providing you did add ammonia everyday, we'll see what happens to your ammonia reading in the next day or so. I wouldn't sweat the nitrates for now. They aren't really important if ammonia and nitrites go away as they are supposed to.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Righto, I'll try to stop sweating it. I last dosed ammonia on Sat and not since, due again tomirrow.

Hubby got home and does not think tank is cloudy, was my imagination.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Things seem to have recovered. I recovered the pH. Tank is now clearing 4ppm ammonia within 24 hours and building a smidge of nitrates.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nitrites?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

we're getying very strange readings right now. 
The system is behaving as if nearly cycled. .. And yet no nitrates, In fact after showing a small amount last night, this morning they were gone. 
Last night at 8pm, dosed ammonia to about 3ppm
at midnight, ammonia down to .25ppm and nitrites 5ppm, nitrates 5ppm
9am, ammonia 0, nitrites .15ppm (barely registering), but... nitrates 0ppm

we do have plants but not THAT many!

Anyway. .. testing the system. dosed to about 5ppm ammonia 1 hour ago, will run full tests throughout the day. watching for changes to all elements.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You really like to test, I guess. I would test just once per day. See what this does. If the ammonia goes down, nitrites spike and go away, and you still register little to no nitrates then you have a bad nitrate test or you are doing the test wrong. You are using both solutions, right?

Oh, and if it all goes away you're cycled.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I like to understand how and why things are happening, and I like to test. It's interesting to me.

The NitrAtes test is definitely not user error. There is a lot of movin and shakin going on and following the directions properly. Also as noted I HAVE had nitrAtes results, they just then went away... plants ate it??

The ammonia-eating colony must be a BEAST because at the 2 hour mark my ammonia went from 5ppm to 3ppm and now nitrites are way up around 4ppm.
Now I need to watch for ammonia and nitrites to go away, and I know the system works.

Then I suppose I need to solve for NitrAtes, where are they?? I'll read the directions again but really, I've gone over this many times and I am absolutely, positively certain that I am running the test EXACTLY correct (and the fact that I DID see nitrAtes last night seems to support that)


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I get what you're saying on the test. Try getting your husband to do it. A different set of eyes may help.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Husband ran test. Same results. If, in the morning, ammonia and nitrItes are cleared I will have to declare the tank cycled and my test defective. I'll take out a water sample, do a 90% water change, and take the water sample to the LFS and have them test it.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Yeah, tank is cycled. The nitrates test is either defective or somehow our plants are special snowflake rockstars who can eat any and all nitrates. Since that seems unlikely, our test appears to be defective.
Although you'll see in my tests list below that I once again had a small nitrates reading at my last test before bed.

Here were my tests, I know it was too many but I was really trying to diagnose what's going on. Starting with yesterday afternoon.

2PM - ammonia 5ppm
4PM - ammonia 3ppm, nitrite 4ppm, nitrate 0
6PM - ammonia 2ppm, nitrite 4.5ppm, nitrate 0
8PM - ammonia .5ppm, nitrite 5ppm, nitrate 0
12AM - ammonia .25ppm, nitrite 5ppm, nitrate 5ppm
9AM - ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 0ppm

As I mentioned yesterday my plan is:
a) Take water sample of current water
b) Huge water change
c) Water sample of water after water change

Take it to LFS and have them test the nitrates of both. And buy a new test kit if needed =|

Hoping to be able to pick up some fish today, although first I need to be sure that I have our pH problems squared away also


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Acclimation station!









Thanks you guys for all your help. It has been so invaluable.
Not that I expect my questions to stop... but we have FISHIES! HOORAY!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Did the store test for nitrates for you? If so, did they use strips or liquid? Or maybe you just went ahead and bought another test? What did you do for your kh/ph issue? This is the main issue now that you need to stay on top of. Can't remember if asked before, is your home on a water softner?

Congrats on finally getting fish.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> Did the store test for nitrates for you? If so, did they use strips or liquid? Or maybe you just went ahead and bought another test? What did you do for your kh/ph issue? This is the main issue now that you need to stay on top of. Can't remember if asked before, is your home on a water softner?
> 
> Congrats on finally getting fish.


Yes, they used the API liquid test. I did exactly as I had suggested I would and took a water sample pre-WC, then did the biggest WC I could, then another sample. I watched her do the test.
I bought a new test and threw out the old one. Tried it last night and it was fine - 10ppm. Which seems about right for the water change we did; I didn't see her exact result on my "new" water but the "old" water one I saw turned dark dark maroon. So good thing I just assumed I had mad nitrates and did the huge water change.

House is not on a water softener, it's just our water in the region I live is RIDICULOUSLY soft, apparently the softest in the country.

Regarding the kH/pH issue, I do have a few coral rocks in the sump that have raised the kH to 2. There just isn't enough water flow with rocks, like if I used a bag of gravel. I have a bag of crushed coral on the way that I ordered several days ago but I bought the rocks as a temporary helper. When the coral arrives I will add it to a media bag in very small 1/4 cup increments per 24 hours so that I don't cause wild and fast changes to the water pH. Using slow careful additions I should be able to bring the kH up to the needed 3-5 range. Does this sound like a workable plan?

In the meantime I'm just going to keep on the pH by testing it every day, and if it drops below the "control" which is about 7.2 I can make temporary corrections with baking soda... unless I should not do that


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Crushed coral should look a lot like your substrate. You could just put it in there if you like. Your plan should work.


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