# This is getting serious



## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Let me start at the beginning and I will try to make sure I include everything:

September 28 I got a new used tank. 55gals and came with a black shark, convict, oscar, pleco, and a tinfoil barb. The seller put the fish in a plastic box approximately the size of a 15gal or so tank for transport. They were all close on full grown. Let's skip how stupid that was. I sent my husband to pick up the tank and had given him 5 5gal buckets and told him one fish per bucket So, got the tank home and set up. Noticed that some of them seemed to have some damage. Black shark had some fraying on the fins as did the convict along with some marks on the body that looked like healing bite marks. Noticed a similar mark on pleco close to his eyes. Within 2 days the black shark died. Within a week so does pleco. Did notice on pleco before his death that he was also missing an eye. Not sure how long it was missing but it wasn't bloody or anything like that it looked pretty healed. Convict is dying as we speak. I also noticed on him this morning that one of his eyes has a white spot on it. Looks like a pimple on his eye or something. Checked oscar and tinfoil over. Oscar has some marks on his body that look like they might be the same thing-healing bite marks also he has two or three pin holes just above his mouth but lower then his eyes. Tinfoil has some healing bite marks as well. 

I have been doing periodic 25-50% water changes because I know the tank has to cycle again and I changed the filter to a new one not long ago and the tank is sand so I stirred the sand last week, since I didn't know when the previous owned might have done it. Have taken a couple of water readings:

On September 30 the tank had 0.5 ammonia, nitrite 3.3 and nitrate 110. Today the tank has 0 ammonia, 3.3 nitrite and 110 nitrate. 

So, I'm wondering a few things. First, do you think these fish are injured- probably from their trip in the small box or is there a parasite or something in the tank. Second, do you think now that the ammonia is at 0 the tank might be getting close to finishing the cycle. Third, do you think they are dying from injury or parasite or simply from the cycling???

Thanks
Amie


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## Scuff (Aug 10, 2010)

Was the sand left in the tank when it was moved? Do you know if it was ever stirred up by the previous owner? Sand beds deeper than a couple inches can create anoxic spots, which creates hydrogen sulfide. Stirring up these pockets releases it into the water, and can have some pretty nasty effects on your fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What is the water today?

Nitrite at 3+, not sure how you got decimal points, is enough to wipe them all out, regardless of anything else that may be going on. I'd do a 50% change now and 25% everyday until the level is 1 or below. And then....you can address any other problems you may have.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I have no idea what the previous owner did or did not do with the sand. I'm guessing it got rooted around a little anyway. Oscar has been moving it about a nice bit himself since he got here. 

I got the decimal point reading because that is what it shows on my test kit. 3.3 is the highest reading on the test so it's possible it might actually be higher and just not registering. 

Today the tank has 0 ammonia, 3.3 nitrite and 110 nitrate. 

I've already done the first water change. Think I might do 25% twice a day and testing once a day. But, do you think there is anything else going on as well. Maybe I might not be able to treat it until the water is under control but at least I can be ready to treat it then and also be able to watch in the meantime to see if things are getting worse in that area. Also concerned about whether I should be protecting my own hands in the water or anything if there is a parasite in there.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay, from what I found I might be dealing with cataracts, fin rot and hole in the head accompanied possibly with an external parasite. Does that sound about right?? The common cause for these things seems to be poor water and stress. Some of these things were clearly visible when they arrived here so I think it's safe to say that they were having a hard time of it in there old place. Next task is to get that water within workable limits. Hopefully that should help with the other problems and maybe I'll just wait then at that point and observe if the 'bite marks' are getting better and if not then I will have to assume it's a parasite. How does that sound???


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Your fish have gone through quite a bit. The move they went through, being placed in a tank with probably differing phs, and then having to go through water quality problems. This doesn't account for how much they may have already been going through in the other tank. This just amounts to stress. Stress will take down their natural defenses and make them more susceptable to things they otherwise may have defended off.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

That was A LOT of fish in a 55 gallon tank! An oscar should probably have a 55 gallon tank on it's own. I'd guess unless the previous owner was really on top of water changes etc they must have been living in very poor water quality for a really long time and the move tipped the balance. 

Keep up the water changes and hope you can save the fish you have left. When the cycle finishes and the water quality improves I think some of your problems will solve themselves. The 'bite' marks sound like a water quality issue, unless you have seen fighting between the fish. Pics might help to ID problems further but I think you are right that for now it's just important to get the water under control.

Don't let this experience put you off the hobby, you got chucked in at the deep end and are still solving another persons mistakes as well as learning from your own. If the fish had stayed where they were it is likely that most of them would have died before too long anyway. If the ones you still have survive you'll have the chance to give them propper care for the rest of their lives. Keep us posted!


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Put me off the hobby ?!?!?!? Are you kidding!!!! I'm loving this (except for the death part). It's one thing to say your good at keeping fish when you have a set up that practically runs itself but to have the worst set of circumstances and be making them better THAT'S a real test!!! I did get talking to the previous owner. He had them 3 or 4 months (so he must have gotten them used as well). And changed the water 3 or 4 times in that period. So, water changed about once a month. So, I'm not really considering this my problem anymore.......I'm the solution instead . Convict fought a good fight but died last night. I changed 10gals of water yesterday morning and again last night did the same thing. And skipped the feeding for them yesterday too. This morning I checked the water again and ammonia was still 0 nitrites were 0.8 and nitrate 20!!! So, hopefully the situation is improving and the re cycling of the tank is at an end. I'll get some pics up later today. Not sure how good of quality I can get but we'll hope they will be clear. I'm going to chance 10gals again tonight and from then on I think I'll change 10gals once a day and test once a day until nitrites are totally gone. After that I'm thinking light feeding and water changes every few days to get the left over food out before it screws the water up. Oscar needs a bib for eating!!! Thanks for all the help


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

That is a pic of the Tinfoil. It was a little better on the computer before I uploaded it. It does still sort of show the one red mark that he has on him. He was pretty hard to get a pic of. 



Pic of Oscar



Pic of the 2 of them just as a general pic of what they look like



Oscar. Notice the holes



Not sure if the HITH that advanced to the lateral line or if this is just part of his markings



His head again from the side



Notice the fin on the bottom. Little hard to see but the fin in slit all the way up. 



Just the tank in general in case you see something wrong that I don't.

So, any thoughts???


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, big fish for such a small tank. The Oscar may have the hole in the head disease. You may want to research that and see if it describes what he has. There is treatment for it.


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## Bill Pape (Oct 1, 2010)

I just read that you should clean the filter, the substrate and the water change at different times because each disturbance kills some bacteria that eat the nitrites and the bacteria that eat the nitrates. It sounds like you don't have any good bacteria after doing all three at once. In that condition, adding something for the hole-in-the-head disease might destroy the few bacteria that you have.

Sorry, I don't have a suggestion to help your current plight. I wish you the best. If something works, please post it.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Today ammonia between o and 0.25, nitrates looks to be 20 and nitrites 0.3. I think I am to blame for the ammonia. I fed them some turkey last night. Canadian Thanksgiving. I was trying to see if I could entice Tinfoil to eat. So the ammonia probably came from that. 10gals replaced this morning after testing. Fish both look the same although I wish I could see Tinfoil eat, then I could relax some more.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LOL, fish get their turkey dinner too.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

LOL With 3 of their tank mates gone now and finally having an owner trying to cater to their needs I'm sure these guys have a lot to be thankful for. But, if I don't see Tinfoil eat sometime this week I'm going to have to assume that he is eating some of Oscars already-been-chewed left overs either that or he's soon going to starve!!!


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I can't imagine all those fish in there to start with! Poor things. I think It's still too small for the two of them but It might be possible if you really keep on top of water quality. Really tinfoils are schooling fish but i won't even go there! How long has he not eaten for (you probably said already, sorry)? Fish can go for much longer without eating than you'd think but it could be a sign of a health problem. Hope it goes well for you (and them), sounds like you may almost be through the worst.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay so some things seem to be improving and others not. The water tonight is 0 ammo 0 nitrites and between about 5 and 10 nitrates so I think we might have survived the cycle and hopefully it will be a little smoother sailing from hereon. 

However, not it's time to focus on the possible other problems. I'm convinced Oscar has HITH and I'm just going to have to wait and see if the good water now improves it or not.

But, Tinfoil has developed red patches on his sides and around his fins and looks like he might even have some in his mouth. He has 1 mark a few days ago that looked like it might be a bite but these marks look like something else. Either Oscar is really picking on him ( and I can't see that being the problem because if the seller is telling the truth Oscar was in this tank with 4 other fish for at least 4 months and didn't pick on any of them as bad as this) or it's parasitic. I've never seen it before bu I'm thinking maybe Velvet. I couldn't get a good picture so I uploaded a video:

YouTube - MVI_3278.AVI

What do you think??


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What a big splash by that guy. Hard for me to conceive having fish that big...me with my little tetras and platies. If the oscar does have the hole in the head I personally would be torn on how quick to act on it - there is meds for it. Some have posted on here before about the hole in the head thing can kill a fish pretty fast if not caught early.

What the other fish is going through just could be stress. Not to say that one of many illnesses couldn't be affecting him, but that could be just from the stress.

A this point treating either fish for anything could kill them because of what they have already been through very recently. Good that your water quality has improved.

Not sure what I'd do. This site may help you diagnose and treat if you go down that road. Fish Skin Disorders


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I agea with jrman on this, not quite sure what I would do if it's HITH he's got. I think I'd avoid the meds for fear it might finish him off. Read up on HITH and see if you can find help from some one experienced with HITH and oscars. It might be enough to keep water quality high and give a good and varied diet, you might try vitamin supplements.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

From what I can see of the Oscar, it certainly looks like HITH. The thing you want to do here is keep your water absolutely pristine. Also make sure you are feeding a variety of quality food.

HITH can be difficult to cure. It takes dedication and will be nearly, if not impossible, in your overstocked tank. I have never faced the problem before but have read on it some. I think you are probably going to be looking at 50% water changes every day and it could go on for months.

Ultimately, I think you are going to be forced to address the overstocked condition of your tank if you want to cure the Oscar. IMHO, you inherited an unworkable situation as it is.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Should I still be changing my water so much now that the ammo and nitrites have disappeared?? I'm wondering because they don't seem to like that very much and hide in the corners any time I'm doing it. 

Also, it's only Oscar and Tinfoil now so do you still think the tank is horrible overstocked?? 

Any ideas on what would be good to vary his diet with?? He gets Cichlid pellets. Large ones for carnivores as his main food so other things that he would like and that hopefully won't mess up the water too much would be good. He gets Super Worms every time I get to the pet store too.

I'm not too worried about the HITH with Oscar right now. I think from what I read it can be parasitic or just from bad water and stress. So, right now, for him I'm just going to have to wait and see if he gets better or worse. At this point, I'm assuming worse means parasitic and bad water means he should get better.

But, I'm not sure what to do with Tinfoil. First, thing is to figure out if all this red on his scales are from Oscar beating him up, stress or parasitic. If parasitic then I'm guessing I'm going to have to treat him (we'll ignore how to do that for the moment and just concentrate on what needs to be done. Nuts and bolts after). If Oscar is picking on him then maybe it's time to separate them. If stress then it should be getting better not worse.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Have you seen the oscar chasing the barb?


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

Sorry to say yes, I really do think your tank is horribly overstocked. Especially with an Oscar with HITH. A 55 gallon tank is the BARE minimum for a SINGLE Oscar with no other tank mates.

I don't know much about TFB's but I think they are schooling fish who prefer to be kept in groups. Since that isn't an option for you, I would rehome that fish and work on getting your Oscar in better health. That will be MUCH easier to do if he is the only fish in that size of tank. 

Medication is, from what I understand, not necessary to cure HITH. As I said before, absolutely pristine water, (with <10 ppm of nitrate and 0 ammonia and nitrite) is what you need. I don't think you will be able to keep your water at that level, in your size of tank, with 2 large fish in it.

If it were me, and this may not be for you, I would euthanize the TFB and be done with it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Killing the fish could be tough for some.

I'd separate the fish now if you can to a tank by themselves. It will stress the fish getting moved a little more, but may help in the long run. I would continue doing at least 20% water changes daily for the next week and rethink it from there. See if he improves....if he is showing any signs of distress? What you see on his head may not change I assume, but he could be doing better. Keep the light periods to a minimum and feed every other day. Hopefully he will get better.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Tinfoil fought the good fight but he died last night. I figured it was coming. For the past few days all he does is stay in the corner of the tank with his head facing the glass and pointed down towards the sand. i'm assuming he was trying to show Oscar his most 'non-aggressive' posture. And Oscar has been patrolling the tank back and forth and every time he would come to that part of the tank he would chase and nip at Tinfoil and Tinfoil would go running. Also, the red marks on his side got much worse and I'm thinking now that they were either marks from Oscar or marks from some of the ornaments. Possibly scratching up against it to get away from Oscar. Oscar seems to have one too. A small patch on his side where it looks like the top layer of skin is rubbed off and I'm thinking he did that against one of the ornaments too. A few of the rock like things up there are very porous and could definitely do that to their skin if brushed against. Funny thing was, after he was dead Oscar didn't seem to pay any attention to him. When any of my other fish have died i other tanks the remaining fish seem to like having a munch on them but Oscar didn't touch him after. I'm not sure at this point what i'm going to do with Oscar. I really like him but I'm not thrilled with the fact of having a big tank like that and only having one fish in it. I think he is on the mend right now. The tank water seems to have stabilized and the HITH has not gotten any worse.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

It's a shame you lost the fish but it seems the set-up wasn't going to work long term anyway. 

I think you have to decide how much you like the oscar. You can try to rehome him but there are so many large oscars in need of a home that it could be hard. The only other option is euthanasia. 

If you keep him you have to get used to it being his tank, it's really only just big enough for him with out tank mates. Remember that you are used to the tank being full of fish so that's part of why it looks empty. There are few fish that make better pets than an oscar, they have really strong personalities and bond with their owners. It is hard to get that from a tank of community fish (not many people name their neon tetras) but it's a trade off for more movement, color and variety. I've also noticed the longer a person is in the hobby the less fish they tend to put in a tank. Even in a community tank you get to see a more natural interaction between fish and the less problems (of the type you've had a crash course in) you tend to get.

You can try concentrating on tank decor and plants. Have you tried plants in your tank? Some oscars will just shred them but others manage with plants that grow on driftwood like java fern. Google for pics of oscar tanks to get ideas.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

That's not a bad idea!! I think I will give that a try. And,your right h does have a nice personality. I put the food between my fingers and he eats it from there. Not sure if he has teeth or not but he has never touched my skin with this teeth or face or anything while getting the food. He's very careful.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Might be a moot point. Oscar is now lounging about on the bottom. I skipped the testing and did I 50% water change. I'll check the water tomorrow and see if anything else is required. Make the best of it I just read on a classifieds website that the guy I purchased this tank from has another tank for sale!!!

Looks like another disaster in the making here are the details of the ad:
130 gallon tank is 6 feet long 2 feet high and 18 inches wide it is in great shape very few scratches 6 foot canopy it comes with a oak stand 3 filters 110 gallon flter 2x 60 gallon filter and a fifty gallon, two heaters one for 100 gallon other for 60 gallon ,rocks,gravel,lots of fish food and all my fish.

Fish For Sale:

turtle yellow slider 5 inchis (don't come with tank sold separately)

Shovelnose catfish 7-8 inches

giant gourami 18 inches

walking cat 13 inch

fire mouth eel 17 inch

2x jaguar cichlid 4 inch an 6 inches

jack demp 6 inch

large pleco 13 inch

Fish can b sold 1 by one but all fish and filters accecories 1000 oro


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