# Fish To Avoid - The Noob Guide



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

*Fish To Avoid and Fish To Grab - The Noob Guide (a work in the process)*

Hello and welcome. This will be a guide for noobs based on my own opinions, not necessarily fact. The purpose of the guide is to get people into the hobby in a more elegant way, than to have people worrying about what they're doing wrong. Getting people used to responsibilities, so when the time comes they will be ready for the more complicated fish. The primary goal, is no stress for both you and fish.

*If you want to search for a fish name that could be on my list, simply press ctrl+f and type in what you are curious about.*

You've probably heard this before:


> Fish will grow accordingly to the size of the tank


This is a lie. The fish will become stunted, their organs will develop wrong, and their lifespan will be shortened.

Most people go for the smaller tanks, but because it's less water volume, the affect your fish have on the water chemistry is bigger. It's "easier" to keep fish healthy in a larger tank as long as it's not overstocked.

Optional:


> Including live plants. Live plants can do many things for your tank:
> 
> They make good eye candy
> They help some of the chemistry involved with your tank
> ...


*Ideal first tank: 55 gallons - Freshwater* (if you can go larger, go ahead, this guide is for a 55 gallon freshwater tank or less)

If you're going for a 55 gallon or less tank you should avoid big and/or long fish.

*
Avoid List:*

Large Plecos and Catfish
Red Bellied Pacu
Oscars
Larger Lake Malawi Cichlids (Mbuna)
Koi
Bala Sharks
Chinese Algae Eater
Clown Loaches
Black Ghost Knife

*Avoid Brackish Fish - These do not belong in freshwater, they need salt.* (if you want a brackish tank, more information will be available later in the thread.)

Figure 8 Puffer
Green Spotted Puffer
Bumblebee Goby
Dragon/Violet Goby.


*Worst Case Scenario:*


> *You already bought a fish, that is out of your care. Here are the things you can do.*
> 
> Trade them in for other fish that you can take care of. Preferably from the store you bought them from.
> Donate them to a store anyways. (Even if you don't get anything back)
> ...




*
Okay List:*

*Schooling Fish - Group of 5 or More, each;*_ ex. 5 Cherry Barbs, 5 Zebra Danios_


> Tetras
> Barbs
> Danios
> Rasboras



*Catfish*


> Corydoras/Cory - Group of 5, prefers sandy/softer substrate
> 
> Glass Catfish - Prefers groups of 5
> 
> ...



*Cichlids*


> Cichlids can be very pretty community tanks, some will be aggressive towards smaller fish, some will not.
> 
> Jack Dempsey
> Green Terror
> ...



*Angelfish*


> 2-4 Angelfish could be kept in a 55 gallon freshwater tank, depends really if you want the entire tank to be Angelfish (4) or if you want more fish with them as well (2)



*Discus*


> Discus should be kept in groups of 5 for a 55 gallon freshwater tank. Not many other tankmates can be with them without overcrowding happening.
> 
> *Thanks to the user susankat for her input on Discus.*



*Coldwater Fish.*


> Goldfish
> Fancy
> Fantail
> Black Moor
> ...



*Sharks.*


> Red-finned/Rainbow Sharks
> Red-tailed Black Shark
> These Jump
> Can't be kept with other sharks because of aggression, must go solo, unless tank is fully planted and has definite territories, then two can be kept; _ex. a landmark obvious to the fish like a decoration._
> ...



*Puffers*


> Although small, some are very aggressive and need to be in tanks by themselves. Might not attack bigger fish, but bigger fish might attack it. More research is needed.



*Siamese Fighting Fish a.k.a Betta, Betta Splendens.*


> Male - Although most people put these in 1 or 2 gallon tanks, I feel they would be better off in 10 gallon tanks. No strong currents, and a heater would be needed to keep tank above room temperature.
> Female - Needs to be alone or in an 5 or more odd group, for the dominant female to spread aggression. Heater needed as well.
> *Tank Mates:*
> Males and Females should not be kept together.
> ...







*Good Communities:*





*Brackish Tanks:*




This is a work in progress, if you would like to add anything to the original post and discuss you may.


Always remember:
*Fish thoughts: Surviving, is not thriving.* 

Try to avoid the situation in my signature, *always do your research.* Good Luck, I hope this was helpful.

*
Helpful Starter Links:*


> *The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fish-poop-you-primer-8310.html
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html*
> Google Search - Silent Cycle
> ...


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Would be cool if this were to be stickied...

Keeping this post in case I need it. :3


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sent PM.


----------



## scooterlady (May 10, 2011)

Very informative! Might I suggest a category for people that cycle with fish. I know everyone doesn't, but it would be nice to see a list of the hardier species that can tolerate a cycle better. So many people make the mistake of throwing a bunch of neons into an uncycled tank and wondering why they're all dead within a week.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Get it more organized and detailed first.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

You also need to verify some of the info you have here because of a lot of things that aren't right.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Don't forget Siamese Algae Eaters and Chinese Algae Eaters. A**holes, `nuff said. Plus they're omnivores - they don't even eat algae half the time.

And I might include a blip on making sure the fish are farmed and not wild caught - poaching species is bad, especially in the marine world.

Lastly, might want to include thoughts on artificially colored fish (dyed). Bad juju, if you ask me.


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Fixed, a lot. Tell me what you think.

I don't know common Cichlid names well, if anyone could put in their two cents about them, that would be nice, as well as good Cichlid communities.

I need more information on Puffers as well. Any one have experiences with them?

Also post some good communities that you know of /are working well for you.. anything 55 gallons and below is welcomed. You will be quoted.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Tiburon (Jun 27, 2011)

Lake Malawi Mbuna would work in a 55. Brother got's one set up at 
his house


----------



## Tiburon (Jun 27, 2011)

Genus Pseudotropheus 4f:1m

Genus Maylandia 4f:1m

1 Genus Cynotilapia 4f:1m
Labeotropheus
Petrotilapia

15 would probably be Maximum for a 55g. Found this on Google
Cause that's exactly what i got is a ^ and i'm going Mbuna.


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Tiburon said:


> Genus Pseudotropheus 4f:1m
> 
> Genus Maylandia 4f:1m
> 
> ...


Thanks, I know theres smaller Lake Mbuna Cichlids that would work in a 55 gallon but I don't know the common names. Will check on these. If it checks out I'll put it in the post.


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

> •Large Plecos and Catfish
> •Red Bellied Pacu
> •Oscars
> •Larger Lake Malawi Cichlids (Mbuna)
> ...


You shouldn't say to avoid most of these fish. The Pacu I would because they need at least a 500 gal tank fully grown. But can be kept in smaller tanks if they have a place to rehome them within a year. A large pleco can fit into a 55 for at least a couple of years even though I wouldn't suggest it because I feel that any fish should be put into a tank that will fit fully grown.

Discus can live in a 55 gal if the person is up to keeping the tank healthy and not overcrowd it with other fish. There is only a few cichlids that will get to big for a 55.



> Avoid Brackish Fish - These do not belong in freshwater, they need salt. (if you want a brackish tank, more information will be available later in the thread.)
> •Figure 8 Puffer
> •Green Spotted Puffer
> •Bumblebee Goby
> •Dragon/Violet Goby.


Never tell people to avoid brackish fish, even if this thread is about fresh water.


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

susankat said:


> You shouldn't say to avoid most of these fish. The Pacu I would because they need at least a 500 gal tank fully grown. But can be kept in smaller tanks if they have a place to rehome them within a year. A large pleco can fit into a 55 for at least a couple of years even though I wouldn't suggest it because I feel that any fish should be put into a tank that will fit fully grown.


Point of the thread is for new people to not have to be worried about rehoming fish, and to feel comfortable with long term tanks.



susankat said:


> Discus can live in a 55 gal if the person is up to keeping the tank healthy and not overcrowd it with other fish. There is only a few cichlids that will get to big for a 55


I'll remove Discus from the list and explain that.



susankat said:


> Never tell people to avoid brackish fish, even if this thread is about fresh water.


Why would you put Brackish Fish with Freshwater fish? I'm putting a separate section for Brackish Tanks specifically. Is that bad?

________

Also, updated on the Lake Malawi, Added Discus to Okay list.

Plan to update on the non-lake malawi cichlids sometime.. As well as adding live bearers, and more labyrinth fish to the okay list.

Any more help/ input is appreciated. Thanks guys.


----------



## Tiburon (Jun 27, 2011)

Sorry Pigeonfish!! Misread your post earlier. Only reason i Reply
Avoid List: Larger Lake Malawi (mbuna) <--- should be ( Haps)


----------



## noob2100 (Jun 13, 2011)

Hmmm...interesting.


----------



## Carassius (Mar 29, 2011)

My favorite rule of thumb for goldfish is 20 for the first and ten for each after. So you could actually get up to 4 in the hypothetical 55 gallon with weekly water changes. Of course, with goldies, less can be better a lot of the time and 3 in a 55 would be quite happy indeed. 

Or so people tell me. B)


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

There is a pea puffer that is freshwater, but don't mistake their size for less aggression. They can be just as bad as any other puffer. I think there are a few other species of puffers that can do ok in fresh for awhile.


----------



## alagerstrom (Aug 11, 2011)

Good thread, will definitely need to keep this in mind when I start adding fish to my tank


----------



## Indywalt (Aug 13, 2011)

Given your advice what would be the best community for 75g tank? Current fish are 1 Bala(lg) 1Pleco(md) 5 Tigar Barbs(sml) Was considering some colorful Ciclids but that does'nt sound like the correct path.I've my tank about 8-9mths and have had Oscars & a Clown Knigh that did'nt work.


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Indywalt said:


> Given your advice what would be the best community for 75g tank? Current fish are 1 Bala(lg) 1Pleco(md) 5 Tigar Barbs(sml) Was considering some colorful Ciclids but that does'nt sound like the correct path.I've my tank about 8-9mths and have had Oscars & a Clown Knigh that did'nt work.


The Bala Prefers to be in groups of 5, but if you add that many fish, you'd overstock the tank.

Assuming your Pleco is a Common Pleco, It could get very large. You should try posting a picture of it and how big it is now and how big it was when you got it, in case it isn't a common.

Ideally, you can get a bigger tank, or you can rehome the Bala and the Pleco depending on how big it gets.

You could go with more Tiger Barbs to make their school bigger, four more would be nice.

If you want bottom feeders, you can go with 5-7 Corys. You can get other fast schooling fish like Zebra Danios and Black Skirt Tetras.

It all really depends on how you want your tank to look like, you might want some other centerpiece fish.

Do you have any other fish in mind?


----------



## Indywalt (Aug 13, 2011)

the pleco is about 6-7" it came with the tank as did the Bala. Clown Knife is my fav but I know the Barbs will become a snack.I will check out your other suggestions & post a pic of the Pleco,thanks for the help


----------



## Indywalt (Aug 13, 2011)

Pics of my tank including the Pleco are on my profile in my photos.I think it's closer to 10" but is the same now as when I got the tank.THX for the help


----------



## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

I have had a lot of experience with Flying Foxes. They seem to get along well with most fish. Much less agressive than Red-Tailed Sharks. The main problem is finding them. Here in Small Town they are unavailable in Big Box stores. The last one I got was via Mail Order from Arizona. My impression is they are water quality sesitive.


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

Indywalt said:


> Pics of my tank including the Pleco are on my profile in my photos.I think it's closer to 10" but is the same now as when I got the tank.THX for the help


Your Pleco looks like one of the specie that is called the Common Pleco, If I had a picture of their dorsal fin, I could be more specific but my guess it that your guy will grow a couple more inches, if he is 10" now.




NeonShark666 said:


> I have had a lot of experience with Flying Foxes. They seem to get along well with most fish. Much less agressive than Red-Tailed Sharks. The main problem is finding them. Here in Small Town they are unavailable in Big Box stores. The last one I got was via Mail Order from Arizona. My impression is they are water quality sesitive.


Yep, not as aggressive as the others sharks. People usually having problems with them because they expect them to eat algae, but they eat other food as well. That and they always get mixed up with the true Siamese Algae Eater. As for water quality, it affects all fish just depends if it's sudden or longterm. Plus proper acclimation is always needed.


----------



## theguppyman (Jan 10, 2010)

Great work overall great thread !


----------



## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Great thread! I think the section on bettas has a few generalizations that could use some clarifications though... The bit about guppies is highly dependent on the particular betta, and most bettas I've had seemed to enjoy the currents as long as they had a quiet spot to rest in.

My current male betta lives happily with 6 male guppies and will swim and feed alongside them with zero flaring. The only thing he'll flare at is his own reflection, or one instance where the alpha guppy crashed into him while chasing another guppy. Even then, it was more of a startled, momentary flare, which he calmed down from with no aggression once the guppy resumed his chase. Caution is key, and as long as you have a backup tank ready to move the betta to should he show signs of aggression toward the guppies and monitor them closely then you should be fine. I find it helps to keep the betta in a floating isolation chamber at first for a day so he can see the guppies and recognize that no, they're not another male betta before letting them co-mingle. This also lets you recognize possible aggression signs before he takes out a guppies' eye or tail. Do NOT try this with female bettas however. They can look fine and then suddenly attack when they've been living with a guppy for months with no prior issue. From my experience the male bettas are much more straightforward on whether they like a fish or not.

For the currents, I've had a halfmoon betta in a tank with a bubble wall at the back, a UGF with a power head on one end of the tank, with a hanging filter at the other end and he actually seemed to enjoy the currents. He would play in the bubbles by swimming back and forth over them and mostly ignored the more sheltered section of the tank that I set aside for him using decorations and such to give him a relatively current free corner. He would go there to sleep, but that's about it. Compare this to when I keep a betta in a 10g with a single sponge filter, they look totally bored and just sorta laze around. Variety in space, currents, and hidey holes to explore really seems to be the spice of life for them in my experience.

Just my two cents, take it or leave it


----------



## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

luananeko said:


> Great thread! I think the section on bettas has a few generalizations that could use some clarifications though... The bit about guppies is highly dependent on the particular betta, and most bettas I've had seemed to enjoy the currents as long as they had a quiet spot to rest in.
> 
> My current male betta lives happily with 6 male guppies and will swim and feed alongside them with zero flaring. The only thing he'll flare at is his own reflection, or one instance where the alpha guppy crashed into him while chasing another guppy. Even then, it was more of a startled, momentary flare, which he calmed down from with no aggression once the guppy resumed his chase. Caution is key, and as long as you have a backup tank ready to move the betta to should he show signs of aggression toward the guppies and monitor them closely then you should be fine. I find it helps to keep the betta in a floating isolation chamber at first for a day so he can see the guppies and recognize that no, they're not another male betta before letting them co-mingle. This also lets you recognize possible aggression signs before he takes out a guppies' eye or tail. Do NOT try this with female bettas however. They can look fine and then suddenly attack when they've been living with a guppy for months with no prior issue. From my experience the male bettas are much more straightforward on whether they like a fish or not.
> 
> ...


On the bettas, it's definitely more about the personality of the betta itself. Some just aren't aggressive. But definitely agreed, you need a back-up tank if you're gonna try out a community with a betta. I know some bettas like the flow of filters... but some don't like it either. Best thing to do is have your filter but also making sure there is a quiet area for the betta to feel safe and secure enough to build a bubble nest. ;D

I'll add a note about what you mentioned though.

I will update the thread eventually, my studies have been keeping me busy.


----------

