# Starting an aquarium.



## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Hello lads and lasses, I'm looking to start a tank up in my apartment. I used to keep fish about 10 or so years ago (when I was around 10-11) with a fair amount of success. Had most/all of my fish die three times during this period though, the first time due to putting too many, and too many different kinds of, fish in the tank, causing them to eat eachother. The second being due to a faulty heater that fried 90% of the fish, leaving the survivors permanently injured, and the third time due to an ick infection caused (I believe) by me accidentally letting water from the pet store to mix with my aquarium water. So this time I'm back and looking to do it right, I want all the critters in the tank to live healthily and happily.

I was looking to do something along the lines of (keeping it simple originally)

10-20 gallon tank
8-12 Fancy Guppies
1-2 African Dwarf Frogs
1 bottomfeeder 

Does this seem like a relatively straightforward and possible setup? Should I do more/less guppies (1 per gallon?). Should I do 1 or 2 frogs (or none)? For the bottomfeeder, I really like Plecos, in my childhood I had 2 relatively large ones and a small one that survived the entire duration of the tank, surviving the aggressive fish, the heat wave, and only one was taken by the ick. But I hear they shouldn't be held in such a small tank, is this true? What if I purchased a small one? (Or are small ones just younger versions of the same species?) Should I look into a different bottomfeeder, perhaps a small catfish or something of the sort, or perhaps no bottomfeeder at all? Would ghost shrimp be possible in such a setup, or would the frog(s) eat them?

I'd also appreciate advice on setting up the aquarium and such. I hear an undergravel filter is best, to protect any potential fry and frogs when they are younger. Could I get away with a normal, above water filter? Should I consider getting the organic/live rocks I used to have in my tank when I was younger, or would you all advise I stick to the more decorative-based rocks?

Assuming all of this sounds good so far, how should I go about starting up the tank? Should I simply put the de-chlorinating chemicals in some filtered tap water, leave the lid off, and run the tank without fish for a week or two, and then slowly introduce the fish? Or would it be best to add in some ammonia, etc, and let the filter build up bacteria and then test to make sure the ammonia and nitrite/nitrate levels were appropriate? Also I've read that guppies prefer slightly higher pH levels than normal, with the frogs and plecos able to handle this, how do I go about achieving the desired pH level?

If anyone could provide some help concerning this setup, and perhaps other advice, it would be greatly appreciated!

,Chris


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

8-12 guppies would be crowded for a 10G in my opinion. I would shoot for the 20G, and make sure you have all males. Female guppies are amost always pregnant and you will quickly exceed even the 20G (I know cause I have done just this in my wife's 20G guppy tank).


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

8-12 isn't a definite range, I just figured 1 per gallon would be appropriate. I'd be fine with having, say, 6 guppies in a 10 gallon, if that doesn't seem like too many. The main factor in deciding what sized tank I purchase will ultimately be if I decide to get an undergravel filter, and if I can find a tank with one built in or if I decide to buy one separate, as well as the stand I end up buying.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Ok, I was just checking sounds like you are on the right track. I'd say best place to start is the size of the tank. That pretty much determines everything else.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Okay, thank you. I'll probably know tomorrow or the next day what size tank, leaning towards 20 gallons right now and I am also thinking about adding a few snails and/or ghost shrimp, assuming the frogs would leave them alone.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Apparently my friend has a 10 gallon tank he doesn't need, so I figure I'll start with that.

I plan on having:
5 Fancy Guppy
1 African Dwarf Frog
a few snails/Ghost Shrimp

How should I go about starting this thing up do you think?

I plan on purchasing:
hood with fluorescent lighting and minimal spots for the frog to jump out of
10 gallon above-water filter
decorative substrate
high quality heater and stick-on thermometer
small-powered air pump (for additional aeration and aesthetics)
multiple small decorative objects to provide shelter for fish/frog
pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate testing kits
net

For food:
Dry flakes, blood worms, and sinking pellets for the shrimp

My plans are to thoroughly rinse/clean the tank (without using chemicals) and fill it up with tap water after testing to make sure it doesn't have copper, chlorine, or too many nitrates, and if it does to treat it for that. Then I'm probably going to do a fishless water cycle and let some food dissolve in the water, along with using some of my friend's gravel that has the necessary bacteria on it. After the ammonia and nitrite levels are essentially 0, I'll test for nitrate and do a partial water change, and start adding fish. I'm thinking I'll first add the frog, then 2 fish a few days later, 5 or so shrimp a few days after that, and finally 2 or 3 more fish and some snails 3-4 days after that.

Feedings:
-Flakes twice daily
-Frozen bloodworms once or twice a week
-Sinking pellets as I see fit

Maintenance:
-25% water change every week with consistent tests to ensure the ammonia and nitrite level is near zero, and that the nitrate level stays below around 25 ppm.
-Every 10 days or so, siphon out the substrate, ensuring Ghost Shrimp are not sucked up.
-Chemical testing every 3 days to ensure levels are within tolerable parameters.

I still have a few questions

-Will the frog eat the shrimp?
-Is there room for a small algae eater/bottomfeeder? Any recommendations?

Is there anything I am missing, doing incorrectly, or need to know?

Thanks for any and all help in advance!

EDIT: Also, I read that guppies do best in the presence of salt water, so I'll have to add some. The other critters will still be able to thrive, correct?


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## Avocado Man (Mar 6, 2010)

If it's not too late, I would try to spring for a 20 gallon (they're pretty cheap on craigslist). It will make your life a lot easier, as you probably have heard that the more gallons the higher chance of success. You seem to have read enough to be on the right track though.

As for your question on algae eaters, I have 2 ottos (ottocinclus) and they are great - they clean a lot of the algae on the glass and stay small for life. I have tried to feed them algae wafers but the other fish attack the wafers and the ottos show no interest - they've been alive for months now, so I guess they're fine. So I'd recommend them but only AFTER you have had some time for algae to grow a bit and there will be enough for them to eat...in other words, introduce them last. (Try not to get tricked by buying a baby pleco from a store that then grows to be a foot long!)

Good luck!


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## Avocado Man (Mar 6, 2010)

Just saw your question about aquarium salt. Any catfish species (like ottos or other algae eaters) don't tolerate salt very well, so I'd be careful with the amount that you put in.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks a lot, I'll try to work something out with my friend to see if I can procure his 20 gallon tank instead of the 10, he said he had plans to use it but perhaps if I flash a few bucks he'll give in. I'm a bit worried on how much the stand will cost, but I know in the long run it'll be well worth. Sorry to appear so indecisive on the gallonage of the tank, I keep on going through the pros/cons in my head and always seem to come to a different conclusion lol. I'll hold off on the algae eater for now, and would like to pose another question.

-If I were to buy a small pleco, with a 20 gallon tank, would there be any negative, long term, issues with his health/growth if I gave him to my friend to put in his massive (100 gallon, I believe) tank once it got too big? I read that keeping a pleco in a smaller tank slowed, but not stopped, their growth and this was associated with negative side effects to the fish' health and happiness, is this true or could I safely give him away after a while?


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## Avocado Man (Mar 6, 2010)

Nice - I hope he sells you the bigger one. 

As for the pleco, I am not sure if we would have stunted growth - maybe someone else knows? I would guess however that there should be no problems giving it to your friend with the bigger tank later on, once it gets to be about 4-5 inches or so. Your friend would just have to acclimate him to the new tank like you would do any new fish from the store, and then it could grow into a monster in his tank.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

The African Dwarf Frogs won't hurt shrimp. I have a 10 gallon tank with a male betta (in a breeder box), 2 guppes, 2 cardinal tetras, 1 albino bushy nosed pleco (because they max out at 2-3 inches which is perfect for a 10g tank) and I've got 2 african dwarf frogs and a whole bunch of cherry shrimp. 

Whatever sized tank you get, make sure it's not tall or the frogs will drown. (They aren't super strong swimmers). You can have 2 in a 10g tank. (I've read they like company). I frequently see my two males hanging out together.

My husband and I like having the guppies and cardinals swimming around, then having the shrimp and pleco on the bottom and all over the decorations, with the frogs jetting here and there - it makes for a lively tank! (We had more guppies and tetras, but a bunch died off). Once these 2 guppies go, we plan on maybe getting a couple Swords or Danios or something.

If you want tips on feeding the ADF's or shrimp or on cleaning the tank, feel free to PM me.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Regardless of the size you settle on, do not stock it all at once. No more than 2 fish to start with for a 10g and no more than 3 to start for a 20g. I didn't read all of your info, but cycling of this tank needs to be considered.


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## Justonce94 (Apr 23, 2011)

I know the advice in this forum has been really great. Almost all of them gave great advice. But I recommend you check out the "Caring for Your Aquarium" book. It's a great book that teaches you everything from setting up your first aquarium to avoiding many mistakes. You can learn more about the book at my blog here- How To Take Care Of An Aquarium


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Sounds like a good set up to me.. but as others have said, dont add them all at once. Plecos can get really huge, so look at getting a clown pleco, reticulated hillstream loach. Plecos are quite dirty also. Cory catfish are great cleaners so that would be a possiblity. I'd look into getting some amano shrimp. They clean better than ghost shrimp from what i've heard. 

If you plan on fry and plan on getting a HOB filter, then plan on getting some type of sponge to cover the intake, it will definitely suck in any fry that you'll have if you dont. UGFs are great but not so much with sand. Real rocks definately have more surface area for bio-filtration, so it should be something to seriously consider. 

For starting the tank, get all your gravel, filters, and decor in place. Wait for the nitrogen cycling bacteria to establish. You dont need fish to start this. There are several ways to start: bacteria from older tanks' substrate, plants from established tanks, or decorations from established tanks. These will give you the bacteria, but to "feed" them, you'll need some decomposing matter in the tank. You can use a dead shrimp (small one), fish flakes, or ammonia as you suggested (since its the thing bacteria will convert). PH can be acclimated to for many fish, so the plecos and frogs would just need a long acclimation as long as the PH isnt enourmously high. you could meet them at the lowish end of the guppies ph, and the highish end of the other fish's ph.. 

Hope this helps!


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for all of the replies again guys. Also some of you are giving advice based on my original post, to save you some time you should also look at my later post (#6) which addresses a lot of what you guys are concerned about (the water cycle, slowly adding fish, etc etc). 

My friend doesn't want to get rid of his 20G but I've been in contact with someone off Craigslist who has a 20G + a nice stand, including filter, heater, hood, etc. For only $75. The problem is it has a few fish, fish I don't want, and the seller is over an hour drive away. I don't want to dispose of the fish and the seller claims she has no one to give them to and wants the buyer to assume responsibility of the fish. So I'd either have to find someone else to take care of them or I'd have to raise them myself. I considered putting them in the 10G tank my friend has, but I don't know.

I also messaged someone on Craigslist about a 29G bowfront tank + stand, filter, and heater for $50. The stand wasn't nearly as nice (and doesn't match the apartment like the other one), but the tank was empty and the seller lives right down the road from me. I am worried that it could be difficult to find an appropriate hood for the tank.

After my final today I'm going to go to Petsmart and talk to them a bit, seeing what kind of fish they have in stock and what the prices are on aquariums, stands, filters, and such. I've also considered switching from guppies to neon tetras, zebra danios, or some small barb. Originally I wanted the fancy guppies because my gf said they were the prettiest, and I knew they were fairly easy to care for as a beginner, but now we're getting a kitten and in her excitement she said she's letting me handle all the fish business.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

I might have found a tank. It's 20G but it's tall instead of wide, so it's basically two normal 10G stacked on top of each other. Is this suited to guppies or should I look at some other type of fish? Any other benefits/detriments to having a tall tank?


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Purchased a 29G tank and stand from a guy right down the street after posting a Craigslist add. The stand is perfect and in good condition, the tank was a little rough (came with a hood, filter, air pump, rocks, and some other things..I threw it all away except the hood light and air pump) but after a couple hours of cleaning and such it looks amazing.

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Adding ammonia soon, how long should I expect it to take for nitrites to form, and then nitrates? I bought an Aquaclear filter with 3 media (sponge, carbon, bio) but was unable to get any used gravel with bacteria, my friend only had decorative gravel unbeknownst to me - meaning there probably wouldn't have been any useful stuff on it.

29 gallons opens the door a little on what kind of/how many fish I can get. I'm considering ghost catfish, I saw them in the store today and they really caught my eye. Anyone have knowledge/experience of them? Are they compatible with guppies?


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## Zookeeper (Apr 27, 2011)

So many answers I can think of lol so I'll go one by one as I remember them . 
for a HOB you can use some panty hose and a rubberband if you plan on having fry. Works great. I even use it for my ghost shrimp fry and that one panty hose will last you years using little by little. 

I, personally, love albino corys for a bottom feeder but they aren't really an algea eater. I have mystery snails for that though . They like the be kept in school of 6 but I have 3 in a 10g and they are healthy active fish. No salt can be added with them though. They are completely non aggressive and can be house with any other non aggressive tropical fish. 

My first fish were guppies lol. Love them! They love the bubbles off the air ston!. I have 3 in a 10 but if you don't want many other fish more could fit. 

If you get snails, make sure they can't get out. I use aluminum foil to block all exits. Haven't had an escapee yet, except when my 3 year old took it out and tried to feed it M&Ms but that's a whole nother story 

Another option to a fishless cycle is Tetra Safe Start. I have always had amazing results and have never lost a fish during a cycle. If you choose to do this method, send me a message. There are exact instructions and the bottle is very vague but it works great! Fishless cycle can take anywhere from 4-6 weeks for it to completely cycle. Of course this can vary from 2 weeks to months I've heard. 

I despise UGF lol HOB or canister all the way.

You can use vinegar to clean a tank. Never bleach unless you were wiped out by disease, and that is still a last resort. Hot water and vinegar are harmless. Rinse as much as you can and if it still smells a little that is fine. 

Ummm, use Seachem Prime for water changes, don't change your filter cartridge every month it will cause a mini cycle. Dump the charcoal out and use the mesh until it starts to fall apart. You can even add more charcoal to the filter if you need to remove meds for any reason. Also, never rinse it in tap water. Always use the water out of the tank during a water change and just swish it around. I've used my net to scrap it a little if it starts clogging and then just rinse the net off.

That is all I can think of! Have fun with your new tank!


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## Zookeeper (Apr 27, 2011)

OH, almost forgot. Google aquarium calculator. It's aq something.com. Amazing site to dream up stock options . Never follow it blindly, always do your own research, but a great place to start.


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