# Begginer looking for advice on everything lol fish filters food and all



## Price

*If your just reading this please go torwards the last posts and check it out, im past most of these questions but still am asking others!! Thanks!!*


Okay so decided that maybe i want to set up a little aquarium seems like fun and would be kinda a neat thing to see and slowly evolve. I already have the tank its an old one my parents have (im going to a junior college living at home for the next year and a half at least then off to UTA, im 19) its a 29 gallon tank so basically a 30, id love to put all those really cool fish in it, the sharks, tetras, eels things like that but man i know that would be wayy to much ill explain why in a second.

I really want to start with fish that are not so dependent on a specific water tempature, were i live power outtages are common sometimes for 30 seconds others for hours or a day, so i dont want to have a tank of dead fish cuz the power went out for 6 hours lol personally id rather not even have to deal with a heater.... if possible. id like to start with prolly maybe 4 diffrent kinds of fish if possible maybe another even. 

I figured that maybe goldfish would be an obvious one to have in there, also a fish to clean the tank? what would be my best choice to help out cleaning? ive heard snails but just looking for what would be best, other than those i dont know what else would be some neat fish to put in there, id love to put some catfish type fish in there like the upside down one but i think they all rely on high tempatures. 

obviously id love to hear what else would be good, a specific type of gravel, filter, plants? chemicals? also what is the cycling period i think iive heard it called what is this? 

Alright guys let the ranting begin i love to hear any and alll thoughts!

Thanks in advance guys!!


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## Amie

Okay, first thing I'm going to point you to is a thread I made about the fishless cycle hopefully it should answer all your questions about the cycling and explain the simplest way to do it: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/fishless-cycle-9364.html

Second thing is about fish: Goldfish don't like warm water and tropical fish don't like cold water. So, you should pick which type you want and go with that. If your area is prone to power outtages then the goldfish might be more the thing to go with but if you want tropicals then I would suggest that you look into some way to make that work. Perhaps you can find a heater with a back up battery or something. I have not looked into getting something like that but I'm sure there must be something like it around. Personally, in my opinion, I would go with the tropicals. Goldfish are messier and that can be a little more of a challenge for people just starting out with a tank. How cold does the room get when the power is out?? Unless the room gets really cold then it probably won't hurt them anyway. We can figure something out I'm sure. Next, amount of fish. There is a general rule of thumb that says you should only keep 1 inch of FULL GROWN fish per gallon of tank you have. So for you that would be 30 inches of fish. Here is another link to a site. This place has a whole bunch of breeds listed there and tells you a little about the fish including what they like to eat, their temperament and how big they will be when full grown: Just Tropical Fish-A-Z Common Name that would be a good place to go, IMO, to pick your fish and plan out the tank. Be sure when you do start to add the fish to do it only 1 or 2 at a time and allow about 2 weeks or more between addings to ensure you bacteria has a chance to catch up with the extra bioload. Note: that site talks about tropical fish so if you go with goldfish it's not going to help. Now, substrate: if it were me I would plant the tank with live plants and I have a special recipe I use for that. The reason that I like to use real plants is that the plants will help to absorb any ammonia and other bad things that might get into the tank so it makes it more stable. And, if you get enough plants, then you can actually remove the filter and any air circulation and the fish will simply live off the oxygen produced from the plants. For my substrate for plants I use one inch of peat moss followed by one inch of play sand and then one inch of aquarium gravel. Note: This is only one way out of about 100 ways to do a substrate but I like this one because it's very cheap and it sustains the plants with all the nutrients they need. There are other substrates that will do the same thing but cost more money and there are some that will cost less but you will have to provide the plants with food yourself. Next, filtration. Typically, you want something with four times the filtration of your tank size per hour. For a 30gallon tank you want something that would filter the water 120 times an hour. On the package it would be written as '120GPH'. You can have 2 smaller ones to equal the same amount if you want. If you go with goldfish it's recommend to have about ten times the tank size in filtration per hour. As for a tank cleaner, me personally, would either stick to snails or shrimp. I have not had shrimp myself but a few of my tanks have snails and I like them. They are small so that will not eat up much of your tank room and my favorite thing about them is that some types of snails are very fragile so if something starts to happen to the water it will affect the snails long before it will hurt the fish. A nice warning sign, IMO. I think that's about it for now. Let me know if I left something out or if you have any other questions


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## Price

oh wow haha read the thread and it seems like there is alot to do before ever even adding a fish to a tank lol, thats fine tho id rather it be a good home, 

so here is my first question, lets say i wanted to prepare my tank for fish do the cycling and such, What all would i need to get? gravel? plants? also i know i would need a heater if i was going to use one and the filter, so also what chemicals would i need? like i see all the diffrent things at petsmart and stuff for preparing tanks, and then the tablets to drop in and liquids and all what all would i need exactly? 

Okay next id say in the room that theyll be in with me if water was to be room temp itd prolly be around like 60 65 in the winter with power on, prolly a little warmer in the summer, but its if the power went out in the winter, obviously im very new but i mean if power was out long enough for the temp in the tank to drop maybe 10-15 degrees from what it would be with the power on and heater on what effect would that have on the fish? would they be okay? i just would hate to have all my tank set up and fish in there and everthing and have a 15 degree drop and see all my fish belly up :/ i mean it doesnt go off every day and every week but it goes out and i just want to make sure that it would still work, my girlfreind has a small 10 gallon tank and shes had it for awhile but she has tropical fish but no heater lol and shes had them for years lol same fish even lol. 

and finally, when it comes to fish, what are some that you would suggest, if im going with tropicals then i know id like some sharks but i dunno what kind do good with other fish any suggestions? also what about some upside down catfish? and i would like to get a pleco just cuz i think they are cool, what kind would be good?, what other fish would you suggest that would go well with these? dainos? neon tetras? some other cool ones? lol and plant wise what kinds of plants would be good? and what would i need for the plants, lights? food? lol 

thank you so much for the help lol i know i ask alot but i really wanna go into it with an idea of what im doing i dont want to start something and kill a ton of fish lol


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## PolymerTim

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

You've got a lot of questions, and I'm glad, because you certainly want to be prepared before you jump in. I'm hoping I can provide advice on a few of your questions and others can help as well.

I think you have a few basic decisions to make about your tank, as Amie suggested. First, I'm guessing you want a freshwater tank, as these are much easier to start up and maintain than a freshwater tank. Second, you need to pick between cold water or tropical. This will probably be based primarily on the kind of fish you want. Third, you should decide if you want live plants or not. This is good to decide upfront since many (but not all) plants will require something more than just a gravel substrate, and that is rather difficult to change out once you have fish in the aquarium.

As for temperature during power outages, one thing you have in your favor is that 29 gallons of water takes a while to cool down. Personally, if you decide to go with tropical fish, I would just try to pick ones that have a wide temperature range and give it a shot.

As for basic tank supplies, here's a quickie list to get you started (someone jump in if I forgot anything important):
-Aquarium
-Stand (a typical 29gal weighs in at 330 lbs so make sure it is sturdy)
-Hood with lights (kind of light dependent on whether you have live plants or not)
-Heater (if you're going with tropical fish)
-Filter (Hang-on-back is the most popular for your size tank)
-Water conditioner (a treatment that removes chlorine and chloramine from your tap water)
-Liquid test kit (not essential, but highly recommended so you know what is going on with your water chemistry. Should include pH, Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrate tests)
-Fish net
-5-gal buckets (at least a couple brand new ones dedicated for water changes)
-Gravel vacuum (for cleaning your tank and/or partial water changes)

For the fishless cycle you will need either pure ammonia (no colors or fragrances added) or fish flakes, or both depending on the method you pick. I definitely recommend the fishless cycle. You will want to read up on the cycle in general to understand what is happening in your tank and when the cycle is done. You will need the liquid test kit to know that.

Best of luck to you.


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## Amie

Agree with Tim (and I had forgotten that one) you should definately get a test kit. The most widely used one around here is the API Master Test Kit. It's good for a few reasons: Again Tim is right that you can test your water with this kit to determine when the cycle is complete and second if you run into any problems with the tank and come onto this forum looking for advice the first thing you are going to get asked every time is did you check your water and what were the results.

As to additives to the water, me personally do not use any. I do leave my water out in a bucket for 24 hours before adding it to the aquarium in replacement of using a water conditioner. I try to keep my tanks as additive free as I can. A lot of people use a conditioner though so either way is pretty acceptable. Since the tank has no fish in it and you then I would just add the water from the tap and not worry about leaving it out for 24 hours first. 

Next, and this is just as a precaution since you mentioned all the additive stuff at the store, sometimes fish get sick. If this happens I HIGHLY recommend you come here and ask people what they think it is and how to treat it. I DO NOT recommend getting treatments from the store and using them. Essentially, those treatments are poisons that just poison the parasite more then the fish but if the fish is weak or anything like that then it can kill the fish anyway. Also, it will kill the beneficial bacteria in your tank that you built up with the cycle. Some of them have very easy solutions. For example, ick can be treated by adding a little salt and upping the temperature of the tank a little. 

Also, how hard is it for you to get places where you live?? I'm wondering because I'm thinking if things do get serious (which I doubt anyway) and the power goes out and the temp starts to drop then how far are you from a coffee shop? If your close you could always go there with a thermos and get them to give you a thermos of hot water and then VERY slowly add it to the tank to keep the temp up a little. Perhaps wrapping it in a blanket when the power goes out. Trust me, if you wanna go with tropical we can come up with a hundred ways to keep that tank warm. 

As to the gravel and plants and things like that. Well, there are a few things that need to be decided first: are you going with tropical or gold fish is the most important. Gold fish like to munch on plants so you would need to pick ones that they won't like much. Some tropical fish like to burrow in the gravel (like eels) so a planted tank would not work great with them. If you are going with live plants either way then I recommend going with the peat moss/play sand/ aquarium gravel mixture. Eco complete is suppose to be very good for plants too and you would not need to add anything to that either but it is more expensive. A lot of plants can be grown in just gravel alone but then you would have to add extra nutrients to the tank for the plants. As to the lighting.Most plants will generally like 1-2watts of light per gallon of water. So for your tank 30-60 watts of lighting. Some tanks with real plants get an algae growth. If that happens simply clean it off with your hand and start turning the lights off a little more. 

Whatever you are going to do with the tank should be done before starting the cycle. Add the heater (if your going that route) add and start running the filter.........Im not sure what I would suggest with the real plants. The last tank I did with real plants I cycled the tank and then removed all the water and for a few hours and kept it in buckets and simply added it back in after I had the plants in. So that way the water was ready for sure. Cycling with plants in the tank can change your reading a little depending on how many plants are in the tank. If your going that route I would recommend talking with beaslbob and asking him about that. He knows much more about that then I do. Basically though, the plants eat the bad things that you are waiting to show up on your test kit so it might not be so noticable when they do show up.

As to the fish, I dont have enough experience with gold fish to recommend any types there. As to tropicals and from what you said I would go with a bala shark. They are a pretty silver color. Not sure off the top of my head how big they get but they dont grow to be monsters. They are more docile for sharks and like to hang out on the bottom of the tank. So if you have a bala shark and the rest of your tank is middle to upper part of the tank dwellers then everything will be fine. If someone wanders into the sharks territory then he will try to drive them away but not actually try to hurt them. As to the pleco, I would say no. I totally agree that they look awesome. I have one myself actually. Mine is about 12 inches long. Thats why I suggest you skip the pleco. They get BIG. It will take up a lot of the fish inches in your tank. But, if you want one and dont mind him taking up that room then they are a pretty hardy fish to keep. Also, plecos when they get big will likely damage your plants when they swim across the tank. I have never had an upside down catfish but he is on my wish list. They are top dwellers and I think should be pretty docile. They would go fine with the bala shark. So, think about what you want to go with getting a pleco or not and tropicals or not and then we can work out he numbers that you have to work with and figure out from there what else can go in the tank.


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## mfgann

I'll add a few thoughts. I think the list of what you need is pretty good. The conditioner most people here recommend is Prime, by Seachem. I've been using Aqeuon's conditioner, which seems to work fine too, though I may switch when I run out. The main thing you want to see is if they remove chlorine and chloramine. If they do that, it will make the water safe for fish.. otherwise the chlorine will poison them.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with coldwater fish. Goldfish are the most common, for certain. The only problem with them is that they are very messy, so the tank will need to be cleaned often, and you really can't fit more than a couple in your tank, as they grow very large. Perhaps someone else can bring up other good choices?

If you go with goldfish, I would avoid "comet" goldfish, as they are used as feeder fish, grown in bad conditions, and may have diseases or genetic problems. With goldfish there are very few plants that would work with them, as they tend to munch on most of them. Last, snails (and probably shrimp) wouldn't survive in a goldfish tank. They tend to eat anything they can fit in their mouth. I know that the local fish store puts goldfish in tanks to eat up snails. I don't keep goldies, so maybe someone who does could add to the discussion.

I do keep red cherry shrimp, and love them. They're great cleaners, and do like temps around 70, but do tend to handle temp drops pretty well. Most fish will chow down on shrimp babies though.

Oh, and bala sharks get about 12" long, and need to be in schools, so don't get them


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## rtbob

Hello and Welcome to the forum.

You have received a lot of great advice all ready. I would treat your water with a chlorine/chloramine remover like Seachem Prime as was recommended. Letting the water sit will remove the chlorine. Chloramine is not effected by letting the water sit I have read somewhere. 

Bala Sharks are huge when full grown. They can reach 14" in length, they are also a shoaling fish so three or more are recommended. 

If you get a heater I would set it up something like the following:

For a 29g tank I would get about five cory's to take care of the bottom. A single Red Tail Shark gets to 4-4.75" and might be okay, but only one. They are very aggressive to their own species which would include rainbow and the albino shark.

A single Dwarf Gourami and a small school (5) of some sort of smallish tetra's like neon, skirted, serpae or similar size fish would top it off nicely. 

Good Luck with your new aquarium!


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## Amie

Bala sharks do get to about 12 inches. But are the most docile of sharks and while they like to school they do fine alone too. Which are the reasons I recommend that one: docile and can stay alone.


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## Gizmo

If you're looking for a good setup that can run for extended periods of time without power (doesn't need a filter), and has live plants and is pretty cool in general, look up the beaslbob build. Basically, uses some cool substrate (like peat moss) to control water hardness, uses live plants to filter the water, and has some pretty cool tough low-maintenance fish (platys or mollies) in the tank. The savings you'll be making on things like hardware, water chemicals, and other stuff will make it worth your while.


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## Price

Thanks guys im reading all these and looking everything up as i see what i need, im going to throw a curve to yall, what if i just wanted to go with artificial plants no live plants, What changes am i looking at? any extra things to buy?

Thanks!


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## Gizmo

Artificial plants means you will want to go with the following, for an ideal setup (in my opinion):

Tank
Standard black hood w/light
Heater
HOB (Hang Off Back) filter (rated for up to 2x the size of your tank, i.e. for a 30 gallon tank, an AquaClear 50 HOB filter)
Undergravel filter (needs air pump or powerhead pump)
5 gallon plaster buckets (Homer Buckets from Home Depot), at least 2, at most half the capacity of your tank (i.e. 30 gallon tank, 3 buckets).
Gravel vacuum
Tap water conditioner/dechlorinator
API Master Freshwater Test Kit or API 5-in-1 test strips (cheaper of the two, but least accurate).
Fish food (not a giant can, keep buying smaller ones so the food supply is fresh for your fishes)
All the plastic plants and rocks you would like, but at least enough standard aquarium gravel to cover 1" over the undergravel filter.

That would be my shopping list, and check CraigsList for some great setups that people are selling on the cheap! Remember - you can remove hard water/calcium deposits with vinegar and rinse thoroughly for a brand new tank.


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## Amie

Well, just the artificial plants and you could skip the peat moss and play sand and just go with gravel. It would also mean that you could get something that would normally tear into the live plants like an eel or a pleco. Although, with a pleco he would still move them around a lot. If going with fake ones I would get the ones that have weighted bases. Some plants have those and other types have bases that you have to put gravel in to keep them weighed down. If the gravel gets out of those bases the plants will float to the surface.


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## Price

so if i went artificial i would be required to have the undergravel filter? they are on these tanks but my dad who use to use the tanks for tropicals said the undergravels are a pain and have to take all the water out to change them out, no way to not use one?

also you said i need a hang on back filter, could i not still use one of the ones that go in the tank?


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## Amie

You do not need an undergravel filtration. And as long as you have the right amount of filtration it doesn't really matter if it's a hang on the back filter or a canister filter.


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## Gizmo

HOB filters are interchangable with in-tank filters - if you prefer one, go with it, but have at least one. My personal favorite in-tank filters are the Tetra Whisper series. Undergravel filters are extraneous but I love them for plastic plant tanks, because they help keep the water much cleaner, and you would only have to overhaul the tank for cleaning every 6 months or more (I went a year with no cleaning of the undergravel on my 10 gallon). I know many people that do just an HOB or an in-tank filter and are fine, but I used to have issues with water clarity until I used an undergravel filter. Plus, it gives you a good excuse to have bubbles in your tank 

To overhaul a tank for cleaning of an undergravel filter, all you would need to do is this: Transplant your livestock into a tupperware with some of the tank water in it (if you've got hardy and healthy fish like mollies or platies or danios, they'll be perfectly fine in there for extended periods of time. For more delicate fish, consider a spare tank during an overhaul). Remove all structures and plastic plants, break down the tank, wash the gravel in a strainer, pull the undergravel filter out and clean the tank and filter plate, then reassemble and put the fish back in. The nitrospira and nitrosomona bacterium that are necessary to maintain the nitrogen cycle will still be in healthy abundance both in your filter and in the gravel, so you won't need to cycle your tank again after cleaning (though, in the beginning you might get marginal ammonia and nitrite spikes as the ecosystem re-establishes itself). For a 10-20 gallon tank, max time on an overhaul that big would be an hour or two.


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## Price

okay so most likely going to go with a planted tank seems that it would be better for the fish in the long run! so i know there was a suggestion, but are there any sure fire ways to set it up for ur plants to grow? like what to use in the bottom or are there just preferences for everyone? also what are some good plants to put in? 

Thanks everyone yall are helping out a ton!!!


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## mfgann

Price said:


> so if i went artificial i would be required to have the undergravel filter? they are on these tanks but my dad who use to use the tanks for tropicals said the undergravels are a pain and have to take all the water out to change them out, no way to not use one?
> 
> also you said i need a hang on back filter, could i not still use one of the ones that go in the tank?


I have a 30G set up with only a single hang-on-back style filter. If it is rated high enough (either get one rated about 2x your tank size, or 4x the size in GPH. For my 30G I use an aquaclear 50, which is rated for a 50G tank and moves about 200GPH). There are filters that go in the tank, which run basically the same way as a HOB style, though there aren't as many to choose from and might be messier to clean. Under gravel filters aren't really necessary, from what I've seen. Thank goodness. I hated those things.

As to planted vs. non-planted, if you don't plant you need to do water changes once a week. That means using a gravel vac siphon to pull fish poo and uneaten food out of the gravel every week. About 15% of your water will need to be changed weekly once the tank is done cycling. Probably more every day before cycling is done if you have fish in there. With a planted tank you probably want some sort of substrate.. either peat moss + sand + gravel, eco-complete ($$$), flourite($$$) or topsoil + gravel. You would also need to be sure you have the right amount of lighting, at least 2Watts per Gallon (about 60Watts in a 30G). If you go over 3W per gallon you also need to consider using fertilizers and a CO2 system because the plants will suck nutrients out of the tank super fast. I run a low-tech setup with 2W/G lights and peat moss+sand+gravel in one 10G tank and just gravel in the 30G. I can grow plants in the 30G, but only certain ones, and there are some issues involved in it.

Plants are a little more effort to get started in. You have to give it more thought, but there seem to be a lot more benefits than downsides, especially in a low-tech setup. The main extra chore I have right now is trimming plants that are growing too large for the tank. I also have it so heavily planted that I don't really need a filter. I have a little sponge filter to keep water moving, but thats about it.

HTH


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## Price

okay so heres what i think im understanding and then ill ask some questions, basically if i went planted there are a ton of benifits! The hood thats on the tank has two light bulbs right were you lift up to put food in, they are kinda long prolly 6 or 7 inches long and they screw into the middle section one goes out each way, 

so heres a list of what i would need to start

Seachem Prime
Heater
Filter
Tank
about 60 watts of light total so two 30 watt bulbs
some peat moss (were would i get this)
Play sand? or is there a special sand?
gravel 
Test strips what kind should i get??

Sound like a good start list? 

Now when i start a cycle what all would i put in the tank? would i put the plants in there to cycle it? or do those come later? 

also just out of curiousity what kinds of plants are good? are they all pretty much gonna be good so just go with what i like the looks of?


And then i would start with fish, which im still working on what all i want to put in there ill get that list together in a few posts im sure!

Thank you guys so much!!!!


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## Amie

If your going with planted I would highly recommend getting beaslbob to explain the cycle to you in a well planted tank, if you are going with a lot of plants. Let me know if you are and I will send him a message and ask him to pop over here. 

Peat moss can get purchased from a home improvement store such a Home Depot. Play sand is what you need. Basically, for the layers: I have done this twice and here is what seemed to work the easiest: wet the peat moss and make it into like a very thick mud or a very moist peat moss. Add it to the bottom making a one inch layer. Wipe down the inside of the glass above the moss line since there will be a little mess. Next, add the one inch of play sand. I found it easier to add my plants at this point. Lightly planted so they were not too deep into the substrate. Then I carefully added the one inch of aquarium gravel. Then VERY carefully and slowly added the water. I put my hand between the water coming out of the bucket and the tank and had the water hitting off one of the decorations before actually getting to the substrate so that there would be very little displacement of the substrate from the water flowing in. 

Your list looks pretty good. Again I would skip the Prime....Actually.....if your going with a planted tank I think I would highly recommend you skip the Prime. First, you don't need it before the fish go in the tank anyway, second if your going with a planted tank with lots of plants then you generally don't do water changes i those types of tanks anyway and third, and beaslbob can correct me if I'm wrong, but generally nothing like that is added to a planted tank anyway simply to ensure that it does not affect the plants.

As to the test strips, I have not had them myself but most people on here think they are not as accurate as the liquid test kit. That is the type that I have and I really like it. It's a bit pricier but totally worth it. 

As to plants, you should go with plants that are easy to grow with little requirements. If you don't want to bother with them much then I would probably suggest that you go with slow growing plants. If you don't mind snipping them every few weeks go with some faster growing plants. Beaslbob uses a combination of both. 

My personal preference, I like Swords and Java Ferns and Wisteria. I have Anacharis and I find them a pain in the butt. When you decide if you want to go with heavy planting or light planting then I can try to point you to some good beginner plants and you can pick the ones you like from that. 

Here is something else to consider for a planted tank: A CO2 system. I did not mention it before because if you go with a home made one then it's only 15 minutes in your kitchen to make it and it might cost you $10.00 so it's not really enough money or time to worry about. I added them to both of my planted tanks. I wanted to grow the first tank quickly so I added it to improve growth and the second tank was just set up today and I added it to that tank because the plants all came from Singapore via ebay so I wanted to make sure that I have them a good fighting chance at growth since they were already a little sick on arrival. I can explain how I made mine if you want and then you can decide if you would like one too. 

So, for now, get your substrate supplies and the rest of the supplies for your tank, decide if you want something with a lot of plants or just a few plants. I you look around the forum then you can find lots of pictures of both and then I will find you some good options of easy to grow plants.


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## PolymerTim

Amie said:


> Your list looks pretty good. Again I would skip the Prime....Actually.....if your going with a planted tank I think I would highly recommend you skip the Prime. First, you don't need it before the fish go in the tank anyway, second if your going with a planted tank with lots of plants then you generally don't do water changes i those types of tanks anyway and third, and beaslbob can correct me if I'm wrong, but generally nothing like that is added to a planted tank anyway simply to ensure that it does not affect the plants.


Are you sure about not needing a water conditioner? I know I'm still a new aquarist and don't have plants myself, but I've never heard anyone recommend not getting it. Even if water changes will be rare, it would be good to have a small bottle on hand, I think. A small bottle is pretty cheap and may bring peace of mind to go ahead and add it to the tank once filled for the first time to remove any chlorine/chloramine.


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## Price

Ah i would also like to add one more question, where do most of you buy your products? any particular store? petco petsmart? or is there a place online that has really good prices? (of course id like to get the best deal) lol thanks


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## mfgann

PolymerTim said:


> Are you sure about not needing a water conditioner? I know I'm still a new aquarist and don't have plants myself, but I've never heard anyone recommend not getting it. Even if water changes will be rare, it would be good to have a small bottle on hand, I think. A small bottle is pretty cheap and may bring peace of mind to go ahead and add it to the tank once filled for the first time to remove any chlorine/chloramine.


I'd recommend some water conditioner, and Prime is the most recommended brand I've seen. Chlorine will evaporate over 24 hours, but not chloramine. If you put water in the tank with plants and no fish at first, all the chlorine will be gone by the time you add fish, but if your water treatment plant adds chloramine, I'm not sure it would be gone.

All that said, in my 10G beaslbob build I've had real trouble getting it to convert the nitrites to nitrates, so I've been forced to do water changes. It was that or lose more shrimp (nitrites always test >5ppm). This means I have to have treated water to go back into the tank. So I had the idea of no partial water changes for the moment.

As for plants...
I have had good luck with most of my plants in my tank. Wisteria and corkscrew vals for fast growers to soak up ammonia/nitrates. Java moss and pellia for places for my shrimp to hide. Najas, hygrophilia polyspermia for some background cover variety. I recently got dwarf sag and dwarf hairgrass for some foreground cover. Oh yeah... really like my red ludwigia too.

My disappointments have been anacharis for being ugly and melting if you add flourish excel. Hornwort has been very good so far, but apparently can drop needles and make a huge mess if it ever has an unhappy day. Been thinking about pulling it out to keep the needles from making a mess.


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## mfgann

Price said:


> Ah i would also like to add one more question, where do most of you buy your products? any particular store? petco petsmart? or is there a place online that has really good prices? (of course id like to get the best deal) lol thanks


I've bought plenty from petsmart, a little from petco (petsmart is a little nicer here, IMHO) and ordered from fosterandsmith.com. I've thought about getting some stuff from bigalsonline.com as well. Home depot supplies a lot too.. peat moss (gardening section) and play sand, and replacement florescent fixture to up my lighting. If you get peat moss or go with the topsoil method, be sure it has no fertilizers or additives. You want the cheap stuff. Can't complain about that, eh?


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## Amie

No particular store here either. Most of my plants have come from online and it's been from a couple of different sellers on ebay. As long as your not depending on the salesperson (and I don't recommend that you do!!) then it does not really matter as long as the store has what you want.


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## Price

okay so i think ive got my filter narrowed down between these two, 

either the marineland emperor Aquarium Filter Systems: Marineland Filter System at PETCO

or the marineland penguin Aquarium Power Filters: Marineland Penguin BIO-Wheel Aquarium Power Filters at PETCO

okay so the only reason i have the penguin in there is because everyone says the emperor is LOUD this is going in my bedroom... sooo i dont want loud, but reading reviews someone said this about it and i quote "Not sure if it was just my filter, but I had to remove the flow meter piece (it is supposed to be in the bottom of the filter underneath the spinner that causes the suction for the intake.) When this piece was in place it was vibrating and caused the filter to be REALLY loud.
I took it out and now LOVE this filter. I have it in a 29 gallon tank and it is working wonderfully and VERY quiet after my minor adjustment. Definitely worth the money. I can see this lasting for a long time and being very durable"

would taking out that peice effect anything????

Thanks guys let me know what u think the best option would be between the two


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## Amie

I have not used either of those filters so this one I have no idea on.


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## mfgann

I had a penguin filter MANY years ago (I don't think they were a marineland product then?) and liked it quite a bit. That said, especially if the company changed hands, it may have changed. I do remember eventually the little biowheel would stop turning, but I didn't mess with it a whole lot.

Now I use an aquaclear 50, which I like even more. It is as close as you get to a canister filter without it being a canister. You pick what you want for each level of filtration and put whatever you want in it.. no prefab cartridges.

All that said, if you get a good deal on the penguin/emporer, or just like it better, go for it. I don't think they're bad. If you do get one, you should know that the carbon in the filter cartridge is only really working for about a week, and not really doing a lot for you. Many of us run without carbon, or in tanks with cartridges like yours we just rinse them out really good in old aquarium water and keep using them till they fall apart. 

edit:
Oh, also, as beaslbob will tell you, if you plant very heavy you don't have to use a filter. I would say it wouldn't hurt things as long as the flow wasn't blowing down plants.


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## Price

well i plan on probably a medium planted tank if that makes sense, maybe later on heavily, but i DEFFINATLY plan on running a filter reguardless for a while at least i wouldnt think it would hurt anything, As for filter, im not sure how i missed the aquaclear, wow it has great reviews, Aquarium Power Filters: Aqua Clear Aquarium Power Filters at PETCO thats the one right? and if i went with the aqua clear 30 would i still be good with the 150GPH? and also what filters would you recommend running? you said you pick your own so i was curious what would be the best choices? 

Next i would love suggestions on a heater, im at a loss seems that everyone i look at has either everythign id like but terrible reviews or good reviews and missing things lol so what is everyone running and what will last! lol 

Thanks guys


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## Amie

I think most of mine are Marina Heaters. I would suggest going with a heater that you can change the temperature on. Some of mine are pre programmed to hold a temp of 24 degrees and there is no button or anything to adjust the temp. I recommend getting one that you can change the temp on simply because if you get a parasite or something in your tank you will want to increase the temp to help kill it.


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## mfgann

In my 30G I run an AC50(200GPH). Its probably overkill, but it was only a few bucks more. An AC30 is probably fine.

My heaters are a marineland visitherm I got with my used tank and a hydor theo I got on clearance. The marineland reports the wrong temp, but works fine.. the hydor works fine. I've heard lots of good comments on marineland stealth being sturdy and jager ebos being accurate.. I always cheaped out. Do be sure theyre adjustable though.


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## Price

okay so if i went with the AC30 what filters would you recommend me running theres so many and i really dont know what i need i guess lol

Also for lighting, ive read 6500k, also my hood is for incandecent lights the screw in ones, so what would you suggest?

also still trying to decide on a heater seems so freaking difficult lol, i thnk im going to do the 2 smaller ones for some fault tolerence, i looked at the marineland pro, but some say that they dont do well do power going out and comeing back on even if its a few seconds and some have exploded, so i was thinking the aqueon pro maybe, but its fairly new, i dont know anybody have some good suggestions for the non glass, fully submergable??

Thanks


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## Price

Okay so this is where im at then ill ask my questions, for my list

AquaClear 30 Filter Power Filter (UL)

API Master Testing kit Freshwater Master Test Kit

EHEIM Jager Trutemp 100 watt heater Jäger TruTemp Submersible Heaters

SeaChem Prime Prime

Obvisouly theres many other things but those are things that are the big stuff, so as for questions,

First as for the filter, what should i run in it? i really dont know what half the stuff they talk about is lol all the bio chemical and putting rocks or whatever in there i really dont understand it, so some direction there would be great!!

Next the heater, what do you think about the jager? also if later on i wanted to add a 50 watt so i had some fault tolerence would that hurt having a 50 and a 100 watt in the same tank or should they be the same wattage?

Then for the Prime, since im doing a fishless cycle and using plants, Do i need this? ive read diffrent things on it so im wondering.

Next for lighting what do i need? i cant seem to find bulbs that are 6500k and 30 watts each since i have two spots and that would be 60 watts and 2watts a gallon, anyone know were i can find these?

Thanks agin guys!!


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## Amie

My aquaclear has the foam in the bottom....not sure what it's for though. Honestly, I have not put that much thought into the media-what ever it came with I used. I would avoid the ammonia remover one though. Could mess up the bacteria production.

Heater looks fine to me. If you want to add a smaller one later that seems nice to me too. I would add it on the other side of the tank. Also, not sure if it was on your list or not, but get a thermometer and then you can check the temp anyway. 

I think you can go either way on the Prime. Both beaslbob and I don't use it in planted tanks. In fact, I don't actually use it at all. 

What kind of lights have you been looking for? Your post said that your canopy takes incandescent lights. I could be wrong but I think to find a 6500K incandescent light your looking at the spiral pig tail looking lights. Now, I did come across a thread that talked about those lights and was talking about them not being so effective in tanks where the canopy has them on their side instead or vertical. In that case I think the idea is to go with something with a higher wattage. Now, my 10gal takes incandescent and has the pigtails and only has the 2 watt/gallon and is going fine so I would suggest just getting the 2 30 watt spirals and if the plants don't seem to grow well then get more powerful ones. This is where a fast growing plant will come in handy-a plant that you can practically see growing in good lighting conditions they will be good indicators.


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## Price

Alright good good, and yes the thermometer is on the list, i just didnt feel like posting everything lol, 

So a no go on the prime then, so how exactly do you start ur tank? just get water outta the bath tub and just after the plants are planted and everything just start slowly pouring it in? i dont know much about water chemestry, i wouldnt think it would kill the plants but who know lol, alright so just poor the water that comes right from the faucet into the tank and then turn on the filter, heater all those goodies and let er rock? 


And the lights yes those pig tail looking ones, Were did you get urs? ive been looking on the internet but from what i found when i looked for the 30 watt i found some that were 6500k, and took like 12 watts of power but supposedly put out 30 watts of light, lol so is that what im looking for? or is there a special light that i need to find for aquariums? lol


Thanks again!


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## Amie

No that light sounds fine. 

There are a few things I would watch for when pouring the water: make sure the bucket(s) are very clean and have NO residue of any chemicals or cleaning supplies or anything like that. Let the water run for at least 5 minutes before starting to fill the bucket. This lets anything built up in the tap get out without getting into the tank. Try to get the temp of the water your putting into the tank close to the temp you want the tank to be (since there will be plants in there). Even use your thermometer to check if you want. Now, when adding the water to the tank put your hand between the water flowing out and the bottom of the tank to try to break the water a bit. Basically, the more that water looks like a water fall when it goes in the tank the more it's going to disrupt the substrate. The slower you pour it in the better. Hell, if you've got the time and the patience use a glass or cup or something and simply scoop the water out of the bucket and into the tank. That way you can get the cup close enough to the substrate to not cause any disruption at all. Don't plug in/turn on the heater or filter until you are finished adding the water. 

Now, for doing the substrate take the peat moss and add water to it to make it totally saturated. You will know the difference because when you first add the water the peat will float on top of it. Then add the play sand. When the sand is in make a little hole in the sand to plant each plant. I planted mine close to the glass and only into the sand. So, while making the hole when I got to the peat I stopped. That way I will know when the roots start to grow after planting because I will be able to see them in the peat through the glass. Next carefully add the gravel and fill with water. 

Some filters need to be full of water before you plug them in. Not sure with the Aqua Clear but it won't hurt to do it anyway. 

I would also test the tap water before adding it to the tank. In fact, let the water run for 5 minutes or more and test it the day before your going to do all the tank stuff just to make sure there are no surprises there.


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## Price

Alright sweet, hopefully ill start picking stuff up over the next week, and all, now ive gotta figure out plants i want lol, all i know so far is some swords, java and flame moss, prlly a java fern, and i just havnt gotten to looking at all the other, so now my next question lets say im gonna set everything up but some of my plants im having to get shipped to me(from inside the states tho nothing overseas) what if i get some plants before others, how should i go about caring for them without having them planted?


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## Amie

If possible I would suggest getting all the shipped plants from the one place and the day they arrive go to the fish store and get the plants from there that you want and plant the tank that day too. That would be ideal. 

Secondly, I would suggest floating them in a bucket of water. Set the heater up in the bucket so the temp is good and let the plants rest in there. I would not recommend doing this for more then 3 days or so though. 

If worse comes to worse and you think it's going to be too much time add the plants to the tank and fill it with water and all that and then add the store plants when your ready. It will make the water cloudy for a little while but the filter will clear it out pretty quickly. I would just wait until all the plants are in before adding fish.

If your putting in moss then you should figure out beforehand what you want to put it on, unless it is already coming attached to something. I have might tied to a flat rock. To attach it most people lay it on a flat surface like a rock or a piece of driftwood and tie it onto it with cotton thread. The thread will eventually rot away and by that time the moss will be firmly rooted to the surface.


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## Price

alirght thank you sounds good, and for the moss i have a quick question, will it attach to ornaments? like ceramic or resin ornaments?

Also what if i had rocks like in my backyard or somethign could i put those in the tank?? lol

On the light so the compact spiral lights wattage compared to standard is about 1/4 and the smallest i can find is about the 10 watt 6500k which would be equivelant to about a 40 watt bulb, soooo, would 80 watts of light work on a 29gallon tank, course its only 20 watts of power but it puts out 80watts of light output with two bulbs.... lol im so confused haha, okay so let me know what you think



thanks


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## Price

Okay so after thinking and thinking on if i really wanted to spend the money and start up an aquarium seriously, i just popped, bought my main supplies from big als, hopefully itll be on the way tommorow! let me know if you think i got an alright deal with all the sales they got

AquaClear 30 33.99

Eheim Jager TruTemp 26.99

API Test Kit 19.99

Whisper 40 air pump 10.99

Check Valve 1.49

12ft of airline tubing 1.49

Thermometer  1.99

5" fish net 1.49

Hide away log 7.64

Foam Filter replacement 1.49

Carbon Filter replacement 2.49

Penn Plax Barrel and skeleton 6.37

So now i found a 5 dollar off code and got free shipping so i got all that for a total of $111.41

now i need to find my two light bulbs, get peat moss sand and gravel, then order my plants from Aquariumplants.com and after that i figure ill be into it prolly 170 or so....... then the cycle, then weekly start adding my fish and buy some fish food... its this first big money spent thats just killing me haha but i wont regret it in a month or two when i have some fish and just can watch them swim like in a normal habitat, and of course changing my mind a thousand times on what fish to add next and of course having the plants grow and produce more plants...... (my hope is that in maybe a year when ive got this tank down have enough plants to start a new tank without buying more plants haha but maybe not who knows!) 

Alright guys let me know if thats a decent price to pay or not?? i think i did alright with all the sales and stuff! but who knows!! haha

Thanks


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## mfgann

Price said:


> alirght thank you sounds good, and for the moss i have a quick question, will it attach to ornaments? like ceramic or resin ornaments?


Yep



> Also what if i had rocks like in my backyard or somethign could i put those in the tank?? lol


Maybe. Some people do this, but there are dangers. First, you would need to boil the rock to kill off any nasties growing on/in it. The other problem is if it leaches some mineral into the water that is toxic, or changes the pH of your tank too much it could kill fishies. Some may disagree, but I'd recommend you not try this yet. Wait till you get a little time running a tank under your belt and understand it a little better.



> On the light so the compact spiral lights wattage compared to standard is about 1/4 and the smallest i can find is about the 10 watt 6500k which would be equivelant to about a 40 watt bulb, soooo, would 80 watts of light work on a 29gallon tank, course its only 20 watts of power but it puts out 80watts of light output with two bulbs.... lol im so confused haha, okay so let me know what you think


For spiral florescent lights you don't use the equivalent watts.. you use the actual watts. So on my 10G I have two 10W (40W equivalent) daylight bulbs. This is actually 20W of florescent light. I grow a lot of nice plants in that much light. The "2 watts of light per gallon" rule is an antiquated rule from florescent T12 (thick straight florescent bulbs). With newer types of bulbs it is a little more complicated, but aiming for about 2W/G with spirals is fine. For a 30G you would need 60W spiral florescent lights. Above my 30G I bought a dual bulb 21W (per bulb) T5 fixture from home depot, and am happy with the results. That's only about 42 watts, or 1.4W/Gallon, but for T5, that's not too bad. I know it is confusing. Ask questions if you need clarification on anything.


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## mfgann

Price said:


> now i need to find my two light bulbs, get peat moss sand and gravel, then order my plants from Aquariumplants.com and after that i figure ill be into it prolly 170 or so....... then the cycle, then weekly start adding my fish and buy some fish food... its this first big money spent thats just killing me haha but i wont regret it in a month or two when i have some fish and just can watch them swim like in a normal habitat, and of course changing my mind a thousand times on what fish to add next and of course having the plants grow and produce more plants...... (my hope is that in maybe a year when ive got this tank down have enough plants to start a new tank without buying more plants haha but maybe not who knows!)


All looks good. I would have recommended buying the water conditioner online as well, as they usually seem cheaper, but its easy to find. I bought a lot of my plants off of aquabid and ebay.. you might check them to see if they have what you want. Aquaticmagic and mikeswetpets are the sellers I've bought from.


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## Price

mfgann said:


> All looks good. I would have recommended buying the water conditioner online as well, as they usually seem cheaper, but its easy to find. I bought a lot of my plants off of aquabid and ebay.. you might check them to see if they have what you want. Aquaticmagic and mikeswetpets are the sellers I've bought from.


Well i was planning on buying the prime with it, but amie and beaslbob convinced me it was unneeded and the plants would do fine in the tap water and be fine to start the cyclee and that a conditioner could harm plants..... lol

whats your experience with this?


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## mfgann

Price said:


> Well i was planning on buying the prime with it, but amie and beaslbob convinced me it was unneeded and the plants would do fine in the tap water and be fine to start the cyclee and that a conditioner could harm plants..... lol
> 
> whats your experience with this?


Ahhh... Well, their suggestion is probably based on the fact that chlorine will evaporate out of water if left standing for more than 24 hours. If your water company uses chloramine, though, it will not evaporate out of the water[1]. A water conditioner would be necessary. I just don't take the chance, and use the conditioner. You would want to add conditioner to any water you put in the tank after fish have been added as well.

All that said, it does cause some issues with false readings on water tests, and might, perhaps, delay how long the cycling takes. I just don't take the chance on poisoning my fish by not using it.


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## Amie

Not sure on the deal that you got on most things but seems to me you got an awesome price on the test kit though!!!

Some moss will attach to ornaments and things like that but others will only attach to driftwood. I THINK Java Moss will only attach to driftwood and Christmas Moss will attach to anything. 

If you add rocks from outside you have to be very careful. Rapid boil for a long time, No rule on how long but the longer the better. Then I would suggest letting it sit in a bucket of water for a week or more and test the water before putting it in and test it a week later to see if the results have changed at all. As to other things to test the water for with the rock in it (like KH or stuff like that) I'm not sure which ones to use. 

Don't forget to get your food when you get your plants and substrate so that you can start feeding your tank to grow the bacteria before you put in the fish.


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## Amie

I have never had a problem with my fish by not using it by my concern about it is actually for the live plants in the tank more then the effects on the fish.


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## Price

Okay question one, i have an old bottle of goldfish flakes around here somewere could i use those for the cycle if i fount them? or should i use food that i will feed the fish later on??

next okay so later on when i add water to the tank with fish in it will i need prime???? or can i just add tap water??

And also when i get my test kit im going to test my tap water, what reading should i want??? for it to be safe for the plants at least.. 

lol i really dont wanna buy the plants and add water or conditioned water and have them all die............. nor do i want to add tap water later on to find out that it kills all my fish in there lol, but if its safe then im all good! haha


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## mfgann

Price said:


> Okay question one, i have an old bottle of goldfish flakes around here somewere could i use those for the cycle if i fount them? or should i use food that i will feed the fish later on??


The old food will do fine. You just want something that will rot in the tank. Yeah.. gross sounding, huh?



> next okay so later on when i add water to the tank with fish in it will i need prime???? or can i just add tap water??


I think Amie and beaslbob will disagree with me, but I would add the conditioner to the water in case of chloramines. I've never had a problem with my plants and water conditioner. In this hobby you will find many differing opinions. Many of them are quite valid, or are simply different approaches.



> And also when i get my test kit im going to test my tap water, what reading should i want??? for it to be safe for the plants at least..


It would be nice to know your readings straight out of the tap so you know what things are changing in your aquarium, but really the test kit is to monitor changes in your tank when it is cycling, or if a fish gets sick. Hopefully out of your tap you will see 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, low (20ppm?) nitrate, and a stable pH near 7.0. Most people's tapwater (mine included) is a little hard. Mine sits around 7.6 in the tank. Some people actually have soft water though (especially if it is well water). Mostly this is just a number to keep an eye on. You want stability, not a specific number. There are a few fish/invertebrates that it matters for, but not most.
As your tank cycles, ammonia will rise, then nitrite, and finally nitrate will rise and the other two will go to 0ppm. This will be a little off, since plants will consume any of those three.. but this is good because ammonia and nitrite are also very toxic to fish.



> lol i really dont wanna buy the plants and add water or conditioned water and have them all die............. nor do i want to add tap water later on to find out that it kills all my fish in there lol, but if its safe then im all good! haha


Plants will be just fine in tapwater. Its the fish that I add the conditioner for.


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## Price

mfgann said:


> Plants will be just fine in tapwater. Its the fish that I add the conditioner for.



So since im doing a fishless cycle would the water i put in on the plants to start the tank be tap water? then use the conditioner for water i add later on?? or should i use the prime with the water i start the tank with too? or would it matter either way? 

i dont mind picking up a bottle if its going to help, but i just want to use the method that WILL work haha like i dont want to use an iffy method, ive read that prime is safe for plants, so maybe i use regular tap to star tthe tank and after the cycle and i have fish in the tank when i have to add water ill treat the water with prime. lol 

I dunno? haha maybe ill start a topic on this and get some big battles going hahahaha *r2


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## Amie

Ditto on everything Matt said, and, just like he said, I do disagree with adding the Prime. but he's right that it's a choice and neither way is more right then the other. Another reason I don't add it is to simply try to keep things as simple and natural as possible. for example, a few of my fish are showing signs of an internal parasite. So instead of going and getting meds I went and picked up garlic juice to mix there food with. It's a natural anti parasitic. That's the type of way I try to run mine. Some people use all kinds of chemicals in there water and I just don't think it can be overall good for the fish in the long run.

About testing the tap water: if you take it from the tap as soon as you turn it on then some of the numbers can be higher simply because that water has been sitting right there in your tap so when you run the water to test it let it run for 5-10 minutes. Same goes for when you add water to the tank.


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## Price

so i posted a topic on it in the general forum, and the first two both were for the using of a conditioner, but like you said its all preference with no way being better really, but i think im gonna use prime, ive done alot of googling and found nothing saying it was bad for plants ive read its one of the best conditioners and safest for fish and plants, so i think ill use it, so my next question is hwo should i use it? like would i add it to water before i put the water in the tank?? or put the water in the tank and then add the prime? 



Thanks guys, and in no way am i trying to say i disagree with you amie!! i would put money on the fact that your way works just as good if not better! cuz i totaly agree with keeping it natural! i just think i wanna use it i dunno just would make me feel better! haha! future tanks i may just use tap! but for my begginer tank im gonna use some at least!!

Thanks!!!


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## PolymerTim

Price said:


> so i posted a topic on it in the general forum, and the first two both were for the using of a conditioner, but like you said its all preference with no way being better really, but i think im gonna use prime, ive done alot of googling and found nothing saying it was bad for plants ive read its one of the best conditioners and safest for fish and plants, so i think ill use it, so my next question is hwo should i use it? like would i add it to water before i put the water in the tank?? or put the water in the tank and then add the prime?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks guys, and in no way am i trying to say i disagree with you amie!! i would put money on the fact that your way works just as good if not better! cuz i totaly agree with keeping it natural! i just think i wanna use it i dunno just would make me feel better! haha! future tanks i may just use tap! but for my begginer tank im gonna use some at least!!
> 
> Thanks!!!


I think, as mfgann stated, the use of chloramines by your local water company is an important factor here. If I understand correctly, many of these heavily planted tanks never need any substantial water change, they just add a little to replace evaporation. So my theory, and please someone correct me if you disagree, is that if you have standard chlorine treatment or well water and it sits in your aquarium for a day or two when you first set it up, then there is no longer any chlorine and the water is perfectly safe for plants, fish, and bacteria. If, however, your water company used chloramines for treatment, then the chloramine would not go away on its own, at least not over a few days. Chloramines are harmful to fish and I imagine that the beneficial bacteria wouldn't be able to grow either. Now, how plants interact with chloramines, I don't know. For all I know, the plants could get rid of the chloramine for you or they might do nothing for it, but it doesn't sound like it would hurt the plants.

Going back to the scenario with traditional chlorine treatment, some people like to let their water sit for a day or a week to evaporate off the chlorine, but even if you didn't, if the water added was small (<10%) then the chlorine would be pretty diluted anyway and may not be as much of an issue.

So I would really like to hear back from anyone that doesn't use water conditioner if they could check with their local water company to see what kind of treatment they have. I think this is an important thing to know before we start telling people they don't need water conditioner.

As for how to use the conditioner, since you are just setting up the new tank, you could probably add the conditioner either before or after putting it in the tank. For water changes later, however, it is usually recommended that you treat your water before adding to the tank so that your fish/bacteria are not exposed to the chlorine. That said, there are people that, during routine 30% water changes, will put tap water straight into their tanks and then add the conditioner to the tank and many don't seem to have a problem with it. I still prefer to add mine to the bucket before I fill with tap water. The only time it would be substantially more convenient to add the conditioner after is if you have one of those gravel vac hoses that hooks directly to your faucet and can refill your tank after you suck out the old water and dietrus.

Sounds like your really getting close. Best of luck to you and keep us posted.

-Tim


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## mfgann

Price said:


> so i posted a topic on it in the general forum, and the first two both were for the using of a conditioner, but like you said its all preference with no way being better really, but i think im gonna use prime, ive done alot of googling and found nothing saying it was bad for plants ive read its one of the best conditioners and safest for fish and plants, so i think ill use it, so my next question is hwo should i use it? like would i add it to water before i put the water in the tank?? or put the water in the tank and then add the prime?


I don't think anyone would beat you up over using prime, or not. Used to when the water companies just used chlorine it was a little simpler. The use of chloramine has made the issue a little more complicated since, if the water company uses chloramine, it will stay in the water.

As for the use, when I first setup a tank I fill the whole thing up then dose the whole thing. If I do water changes beyond that I dose each bucket of water only for the water in the bucket, mix and let it sit a minute before adding. Some people will dose the whole tank again, and then just add the buckets of water. I think either work, but I try not to overuse chemicals with no reason, though I suppose I'm a little less leary of them than others, obviously. 

I'd say the norm is to use a water conditioner.. probably 99% of aquarium keepers use it. Beaslbob bucks the trend, and then convinces us to as well *r2
I do have a small 10G I did plant in beaslbob's style. I still run a little sponge filter in it, and have had to do some water changes, but thats about it. Its growing like wildfire, and i love that tank.

We'll be happy to help and share any opinions we have, just be ready for some head-butting sometimes. It happens in this hobby


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## Price

thanks!!

i have a quick question! Im having trouble finding CFL bulbs for my hood, i guess i need somewere around 60 watts total, so around a 27 is what im looking at for cfl since they have weird wattages, but i cannot find the mini spirals  But i put one of the cfl from my cieling fan in to see how it fit, and the normal size fits, but it does kinda touch the top part of the hood, Is this okay?? 

If anyone knows how to make me finding these easier it would be awesome!!! and also if i should go for higher or lowwer wattage!

Thanks!!! 

hoping to get the plants and everything started up end of next week if i can get everything! down to needing peat moss, the lights, bottle of prime, and then of course the plants!


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## jrman83

Are you located in the United States? Any Lowe's or Home Depot or many other stores have spiral CFLs. I have 3-26W, 6500k, spiral CFLs over my 29gal and my plants do well.


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## Price

yes im in the US, i checked at home depot but the lowest i could find was a 40... now i may not have looked and that may have been equivalent, but ithey were the daylight ones, and i looked online later and it says the daylight ones are only 5000k in temp rather than 6500k, i could be wrong tho!, i need to check at some others, 

My problem is i need the Mini Spirals, which are harder to find! UNLESS everyone thinks that its okay if the bulb touches the top a little bit? i mean it fits in fine just kinda touches the top of the hood a little bit? will that be okay??

you say you have 3 of the 26 watt ones, Do your plants do fine in that?? should i be looking for higher wattage?? i can only use two bulbs so should i get the 40 watt bubs?


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## Amie

You can easily go higher watts with the lights just watch the tank for algae growth and if it starts to grow then you are leaving the lights on too long and simply turn them off earlier (or on later whichever).

I would suggest if you go with Prime to add it to the buckets of water before putting them in the tank and only adding for the bucket. So, for example, if it's a 5gal bucket then add enough Prime to treat 5gals of water. For the initial dosing it's fine to just put it directly in the tank. 

I don't think I would recommend using the lights that touch the hood but you could give it a shot if you want and keep a VERY close eye on it it case it starts to melt or burn or anything. Like watch it every few hours at least.

We use chlorine only in my water supply (yay me!!!!!)


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## Price

well it would be touching metal, its a metal chrome flip up part that the lights are in, id like to find some mini spirals, found some but the company online has bad reviews and they were like 10 bucks a pop..


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## mfgann

I got 2 x 10W (40W equivalent, but ignore this number) daylight bulbs at walmart. they have them at home depot as well, and there is more selection. I would recommend about 2 W per Gallon if you can get it, though a little less would be okay. Also, anything from 5000K to 10000K will grow plants.. but the sweet spot is around 6700K I think. Anything lower looks more yellowish, anything higher is more bluish. Some people mix in 10000K bulbs because they like the look more. 

If you have real trouble you could order from 1000bulbs.com. I just ordered some 36" T5 (NO) bulbs at 6500K for less than $3 each (plus shipping). I needed them for my 30G which is retrofitted with a home depot T5 dual bulb fixture. The bulbs just came and I am very happy. 

Good luck, and keep asking if you have questions! We're all here to help each other out.


----------



## Price

Thanks! so i plugged my CFLs from my ceiling fan into it, they dont really touch the metal except one of them does ever so slightly, however after having them on for 30 minutes touching the top of the metal was very HOT......... its not gonna melt nothing but its hot to touch it lol, i can take a picture later, but would there be an easier way to change this around or fix this? without buying a new hood? i really wish i had a hood that would fit some regular flourecent tubes haha thatd be great!


Any cheap ideas to fix this???

oh by the way the ones i put in are like 15 watts or something 60 watt equivalent


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## jrman83

I use 26W CFLs, 100W equivalent. 6500K. They come in packs of 4.


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## Price

jrman83 said:


> I use 26W CFLs, 100W equivalent. 6500K. They come in packs of 4.


What kind of hood do you have?? cuz like i said in the previous post mine gets really hot... :/ i wonder if i could get like some heat proof tape to put on the metal above the light.... or i really wish i could change the fixture on it to a florescent :/


any advice guys?


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## jrman83

I made my own enclosure for my lights.


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## Price

Okay heres where im at, the hood is an old Metaframe Stow-a-lite hood,

i put the two full size CFL bulbs from my room lights in it, i think they are prolly like 15 watt real wattage or something, but anyways left them on till i knew it wouldnt get any hotter, and now the bulbs are kinda hard to touch and hold, but i can put my hand everywere on the metal and yes above the bulbs is hot! but you can hold your hand on it as long as you want its not going to burn you at all, just fairly warm!

Next problem is everyone keeps saying home depot or lowes, but the daylight bulbs such as these EcoSmart 27-Watt (100W) Daylight CFL Light Bulb (2-Pack) - ES5M827250K at The Home Depot are 5000k temperature rather than a 6500k am i looking at the wrong type??

I took a few pics, and i want yall to tell me if you think that the way these are positioned if they will put light to the back of the tank correctly! 


This is the hood from the front


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is my attempt to show you the black plastic that comes down in the back which makes me worry as to wether the light will still travel to the back of the tank! i think it will just want to make sure!


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

my lights from my room in it haha


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

hood from the top


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

pointless but i took this with the lights on lol 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Amie

I wouldn't worry about the 5000k vs the 6500k. I think that that is mostly for your own preference I don't think it will effect the plants or the fish much. The higher the degrees (that's what the number is about is degrees measured in Kelvin instead of Celsius or Fahrenheit). They use the same thing in some new types of headlights (HID ones) you know them when they are coming towards you they are either very bright white or white tinted blue or very blue but either color and they are very hard on your eyes when the approaching car has them. Your looking at the same thing with the tank lights. The higher degrees Kelvin you go the different sort of tint will be on the lights. If you find you don't like the way that the lights look in the tank then just go to a higher number and it will change the look a little. 

As to the metal getting hot-that's fine. I thought you mean it was touching the plastic between the light and the water. I don't think I would worry about it touching the metal on the back of the light. That is put there to stop the heat from going through to the plastic and it should be fine for that. All 5 of my tanks get hot there and none of them are warm of the outside of the tank and I have had no problems with them. My tanks are a mixture of incandescent and florescent, so both are equal when it comes to that. 

At this point I don't think I would worry about the plastic cutting off the light to the back either. Let it be for now and just keep an eye on the plants in that corner to make sure they are growing at a similar rate to the other plants. I would suggest if you are using bunch plants to put plants from the same bunch on both sides of the tank to check this. I started mine with 2 bunches of Wisteria and I put one bunch all on the right and the other all on the left and one side did grow better then the other but I wasn't sure if it was because the substrate or the lighting was better on that side or if it simply had something to do with that particular bunch of Wisteria.


----------



## Price

Thank you! that comparison to HIDs really helps lol cuz i Put them in my truck a couple months ago, and honestly i would like a blue tint to my tank, dunnno if ill get it using cfls but im guessing the blue tint is more in the 10000 range, but thank you i will start looking for some lights that fit better for my prefernce and if all else fails i can always throw some of the 5000k from home depot in it for now till i can grab some in my prefernce! thank you again!


and for plants im still figuring out all what i want, but for sure ill have some anacharis and some wisteria! 

Thanks!


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## Amie

Yeah that's probably what I would do-get the Home Depot ones so you can get on with the project and replace them with the right ones when you get them. I actually have them in my car too LOL.

I would think you might get a little blueish with 7500k but 10000 should be nice and blue for sure.


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## Price

lol Nice!! haha yeah i may end up doin that, i think lowes has some 6500k im gonna look around try and find some local if that fails then i get my shipment of supplies on the 30th so by thne ill grab some daylights from home depot and order ones i need! I was thinking of going with some 40 watt ligths rather than the 27, whats the advantages/disadvantages of going higher wattage vs lower??

lol are hids illegal in canada if they arent from the factory?? haha they are here but cops have really stopped caring about them lol


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## jrman83

There are stacks and stacks of 6500K bulbs here at my Lowes. 6500k is closer to what the sun is at peak daylight. If you can't fins them, I wouldn't worry about it too much. May only be a factor for certain plants that have a huge light requirement and those would also require CO2, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Easy plants like Wisteria, anacharis, any anubias, etc... they'll nearly gorw in just ambient light from the room.


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## Amie

That is one of the nice things about living in Newfoundland-we are usually the last ones to get new laws like that. So, s far as I know there is no law here yet about HID lights. 

The biggest difference with going with higher wattage lights is that the higher the watts the more chance of getting algae growth. But, if you do get algae then you simply cut back on how long you leave your lights on for. For example, my 10gal has about 1watt/gal of lighting. I put the light on in the morning when I get up so around 8am and turn them out when I go to bed around 11pm. No noticeable algae growth. If algae did start to grow then I would start turning them on at 10am and turning them out at 9pm or so. So, it's not really a big deal.


----------



## Price

well it seems like its easier to find either 23, 27, or 40 watt bulbs in 6500k, 

What if i went with lower? would the plants still be okay with the two 23s or would 27 deff be better? 

Thanks!


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## Amie

Two 23's .......so 46 watts. I'm a.....29gal right. So, 1.6 watts of light per gallon. They should all be fine in that and that should also be low enough that you can leave the lights on for a good portion of the day. If you get them and you find that your plants seem to be growing slower then you would expect then just try leaving the lights on for longer. It might also be a pretty good wattage for keeping the algae at bay.


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## Price

alright sounds good, ill try to find the 27s but if worst comes to worst ill grab the 23s, hopefully i can find some packs of 6500k at the lowes near me, if not ill grab daylight and order online!

Ahh so this is what i have left to get

Package of the stuff i listed comes in the 30th so that leaves me with

peat moss
lights
gravel
and a small bottle of prime

then ill make my order of plants from most likely aquariumplants.com and set it all up, i just hope that the 2 day air wont kill any plants! 

Also ive been thinking, on bunch plants that come as stems like anacharis, how do they spread? do you just cut some off and plant it next to them and they start to grow up??


Thanks!!!


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## jrman83

The lower would be good for any low light plant. If the plants do grow slower this may be what you want and doesn't mean you have to leave the light on longer. I have some plants that I would love it if they grew a little slower. Don't let the growth rate drive anything, just be concerned about the health of the plant. If you find later that you want them to grow faster, then adjust.


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## Amie

That's what I do with my Anacharis. But it's sometimes a necessity then anything else. When they get too big then the leaves won't grow on the bottom part of them anymore, or at least mine don't. So I cut the tops off them and plant the tops as new plants. I have had rotten luck with Anacharis myself. Once I cut off the top the bottom usually dies anyway.


----------



## Price

Alright awesome! well i hope if have better luck then  haha well i got my lights tonight! went to walmart of all places, parents were shopping so i figured what the heck ill check for lights, and what did they have? 6500k 26watt two packs *w3*w3*w3 so grabbed it up! now hopefully tomorrow ill get the rest! UNLESS the lowes doesnt have peat moss, its seasonal so the local home depot only has a bag of miracle grow peat moss which contains miracle grow in it so i dont want anything like that in the water! i dont think...... do i?? haha 

Well i was very happy i got the lights, although on the sides it says do not expose to water lol so hopefully condensation doesnt get them lol guess ill find out lol 

Well hopefully ill have more good news tomorrow!

for my plant list so far im at two maybe three bunches of anacharis
2wisteria
1 maybe 2 amazon swords
3 bannanna plants
1 Echinodorus Vesuvius just cuz i think it looks really cool!
1 or 2 dwarf baby tears
2 green wendtii
and i was thinking about a broad leaf ludwigia haha 

Any suggestions? comments? on maybe some bad choices here or some other choices that might be better? 



Thanks!!


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## Amie

Only a couple there I'm not familiar with. I don't like my Anacharis. Banana plants look really nice. Wisteria grows really fast. Swords are slow growers but position them so they have a lot of room when they do grow. Baby Tears look so nice and look like they can make a really pretty foreground cover. Don't remember what the Wendit looks like but I remember liking that one too. They sound pretty good to me.


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## jrman83

Dwarf baby tears or Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC) can be very difficult. Requires very good lighting, fertilization, a good substrate and will do better with CO2. I would scratch that from the list. I have the vesuvious...they are pretty cool and will propogate rapidly once it gets growing. Forget how big your tank is, but I'd only get one amazon sword if you have to get one. It does grow fairly slow, but will outgrow a smaller tank very easy.

Also, on your wendtii choice....I'd go with the brown or tropica colors. Most of the other plants you have are fairly bright green. Adding one of these colors will add some contrast to your tank.


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## beaslbob

I can't see the links/immages at work so am kinda shooting in the dark.

Home depot IME does not have the 6500k pig tail lights but does have some 6500k 4' tubes.

I think lowes may have the 6500k and am sure wall mart does. Look for the GE bulbs where right on the package is '6500' vertically on the side.

I have no luck with banada plants but that could be just me.

I would add vals and anacharis especially for a new setup. but the other planst look fine to me.

my .02


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## Price

Thanks guys cant go into big detail right now cuz im bout to head out shopping hopefully get some more stuff for the tank too like the rest of what i need! haha

so quick question What do yall think about Dwarf Subulata Sag?


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## mfgann

Wow, lot of catching up I had to do. You've been busy. Yes, I got my 6500K bulbs from walmart too, and I honestly don't know if you could even find anything in the spiral pigtails higher than that. They look good to me in my tank. Just be sure you're looking at the real wattage and not the equivalent wattage of an incandescent. It'll say something like "13 W (60 W equivalent)". We're already counting on you not using incandescents because they're so ineffecient. The 2W per gallon rule is only for florescents, and even then it is not a great rule due to some of the newer, higher effeciency bulbs. I think in my 30G I have two 21W T5 bulbs (real skinny straight tubes) and that is supposed to be good low/medium lighting for a 30G (1.4W/G).

As for the plants, I'm with jrman on the baby tears. I put some dwarf hairgrass in mine for the heck of it, and am having doubts about whether it would make it. Amazon swords do get big, and are very root heavy, so place them well from the beginning because they will be messy to pull out, I would think. You probably want to give them lots of room, too.. not very near the glass. Fast growers are a good thing for a young tank, so like beaslbob suggested I'd get some vals. Put them in back as they grow tall. Anacharis is ugly IMHO, but does grow fast. Wisteria is a fast grower too. With the wisteria, when it gets pretty tall you can cut it and replant the cutting so it fills in good. If you want some foreground, the crypt wendtii will work very good. I have the tropica growing in. If you want some color other than green, jrman is right, this is a good place to pick a different color. Also dwarf sag is a good fast-growing foreground. It looks like little baby vals. Put it up front. Java ferns are a super easy choice and if tied to a piece of driftwood they'll grow onto it. Java moss is good to have for shrimp and fry, but it will grow onto almost anything it can get to.. gotta control it. I have the red ludwigia, and it grows slower, but well. The red has a red color under the leaves which is nice. I've cut and replanted it as well. All in all, if you have lighting, aquarium plants are pretty easy. The hardest thing is keeping algae away.

As for the substrate, I did use the miracle grow peat moss, but I wouldn't again. I think it caused some massive ammonia spikes. If you HAVE to use it, I put it in something, fill the tank with water, and pour off the water a few times to try and get any chemicals out. Never tried this, but I expect it would be a messy job. I think I've seen plain peat moss bagged in HD though. I've been curious about replacing the sand layer with a bag of the Miracle Grow Organic Select soil. It is very popular among the natural planted tank folks elsewhere, and seems like a good choice. They're also the ones that dig up dirt from their backyard to use too, though. 

Just ask if we missed anything you need to know.


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## mfgann

Price said:


> Thanks guys cant go into big detail right now cuz im bout to head out shopping hopefully get some more stuff for the tank too like the rest of what i need! haha
> 
> so quick question What do yall think about Dwarf Subulata Sag?


I think I mentioned in my big post, so far my dwarf sag is doing awesome, and makes a great foreground plant. Go for it if you can find it


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## Price

Okay great news!! i got my prime, 50 pounds of gravel, and 3 cubic feet of peat moss.... way more than i need but its the smallest i could find haha.


So now waiting on my box from big als, and then to order plants and get ready to set it up!

So heres my list for plants now

3 Anacharis 
2 Wisteria 
1 Amazon Sword 
2 Banana Plant 
1 Echinodorus Vesuvius 
1 Dwarf Subulata Sag order of 10 plants
2 Red Wendtii 
1 Broad Leaf Ludwigia 

thats my order from Aquairum plants.com I also plan on ordering some moss from ebay i think flame moss, and maybe some java moss or xmas moss. 

So now how does that list look? any subtractions or additions? also will all these plants be fine with two day air delivery? i live in Texas so temps right now are welll in the 40s to 50s but i think its supposed to get a little colder next week i dunno, i do know that when they deliver i will be here to get them and get them planted ASAP! 

Let me know what you think guys! 

Thanks!!


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## jrman83

Don't feel like you need to get all 50lbs of gravel in there. Moss is cool but with those plants and that sized tank, I think you'll find you won't want it. I'd wait and see how it all looks after you get it all in there. I would up your vesuvious to 3. The one will propogate new plants, but one sitting there by itself will not look right. 3-4 planted close together looks better. Also once it is all in and settled I think you'll end ditching the anacharis. Great plant, easy to grow into many more plants, but just a PITA. No matter what I do mine always come uprooted and end up all over the tank. May still be good to establish your tank...just saying.


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## Amie

I think that place guarantees live delivery anyway but I wouldn't worry about it. 2 days is nothing for delivery and chances are they will be coming wrapped in a heating pad or something to add heat. 

I would place my order on Sunday though. that way that should ensure that it ships Monday or Tuesday and reaches you before the weekend. So, it's not stuck in transit over the weekend.


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> Okay great news!! i got my prime, 50 pounds of gravel, and 3 cubic feet of peat moss.... way more than i need but its the smallest i could find haha.
> 
> 
> So now waiting on my box from big als, and then to order plants and get ready to set it up!
> 
> So heres my list for plants now
> 
> 3 Anacharis
> 2 Wisteria
> 1 Amazon Sword
> 2 Banana Plant
> 1 Echinodorus Vesuvius
> 1 Dwarf Subulata Sag order of 10 plants
> 2 Red Wendtii
> 1 Broad Leaf Ludwigia
> 
> thats my order from Aquairum plants.com I also plan on ordering some moss from ebay i think flame moss, and maybe some java moss or xmas moss.
> 
> So now how does that list look? any subtractions or additions? also will all these plants be fine with two day air delivery? i live in Texas so temps right now are welll in the 40s to 50s but i think its supposed to get a little colder next week i dunno, i do know that when they deliver i will be here to get them and get them planted ASAP!
> 
> Let me know what you think guys!
> 
> Thanks!!


Let us know how it works.

Pictures required.


my .02

(am curious how the peat/gravel will work without sand)


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## mfgann

You can float anacharis. I think beaslbob is its biggest fan here.. some of us get annoyed by it over time  It does grow fast, which is good up front, as it reduces toxins in the water. I would float it for the time your tank is cycling and then decide whether you want it or not it is something you want to keep. The rest of the list looks pretty good.


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## Price

Well as far as the 50 pounds of gravel, i didnt feel i needed that much either but i want to have an inch or close to it over the whole tank and it came in 25 pound bags, i really dont think one bag will do it, but if its close then ill take the other bag back and get a smaller one or just keep for spare! 


And to beaslbob, i will deff tell you how it works out and pics! but im using your method of peat moss, play sand, and gravel, i already got the sand in an earlier post thats why i ddidnt post it there. i would never try somethign new on my first tank hahahaaha

Amie, yes they do guarentee delivery... but only on overnight  i emailed them and asked, they also dont do price matching haha i basically chose them because of the good reviews not them being cheaper and hoping that if anything does come in dead they can work with me a little!

Mfgann, i actually am liking the look of anacharis, looks like a cool plant to me, but who knows im sure ill change my mind a thousand times over the course of the tank haha!


Also as to the vesuvious, i think it looks awesome also!! buttt its 5 bucks a pop  lol may not sound like a lot to yall haha but for the moment thats a big price for me when i have it to were my total order with shipping will be about 50 bucks! Ill look and i may up it to 2, but i was thinking maybe putting one on each side... i dunno, how easy does it grow more plants? 

Anyways guys Thanks for all the help im so happy im finaly getting close to getting it started!! but dont worry ill keep the questions coming! cuz guess whats next!! FISH hahaha *r2*r2*r2


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> Well as far as the 50 pounds of gravel, i didnt feel i needed that much either but i want to have an inch or close to it over the whole tank and it came in 25 pound bags, i really dont think one bag will do it, but if its close then ill take the other bag back and get a smaller one or just keep for spare!
> 
> 
> And to beaslbob, i will deff tell you how it works out and pics! but im using your method of peat moss, play sand, and gravel, i already got the sand in an earlier post thats why i ddidnt post it there. i would never try somethign new on my first tank hahahaaha
> 
> Amie, yes they do guarentee delivery... but only on overnight  i emailed them and asked, they also dont do price matching haha i basically chose them because of the good reviews not them being cheaper and hoping that if anything does come in dead they can work with me a little!
> 
> Mfgann, i actually am liking the look of anacharis, looks like a cool plant to me, but who knows im sure ill change my mind a thousand times over the course of the tank haha!
> 
> 
> Also as to the vesuvious, i think it looks awesome also!! buttt its 5 bucks a pop  lol may not sound like a lot to yall haha but for the moment thats a big price for me when i have it to were my total order with shipping will be about 50 bucks! Ill look and i may up it to 2, but i was thinking maybe putting one on each side... i dunno, how easy does it grow more plants?
> 
> Anyways guys Thanks for all the help im so happy im finaly getting close to getting it started!! but dont worry ill keep the questions coming! cuz guess whats next!! FISH hahaha *r2*r2*r2


It'll go fast now.

After months of talking planing ordering all the sudden in a few hours it's all setup.

*old dude


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## mfgann

Price said:


> Well as far as the 50 pounds of gravel, i didnt feel i needed that much either but i want to have an inch or close to it over the whole tank and it came in 25 pound bags, i really dont think one bag will do it, but if its close then ill take the other bag back and get a smaller one or just keep for spare!


Usually aim for about 1lb of gravel per gallon of tank. Not a real exact rule, but it gets you in the ballpark 



> Amie, yes they do guarentee delivery... but only on overnight  i emailed them and asked, they also dont do price matching haha i basically chose them because of the good reviews not them being cheaper and hoping that if anything does come in dead they can work with me a little!


Other places to look for plants are aquabid.com and ebay.com. I've bought several things from both places, and been pretty happy. The ebay sellers I usually use are aquaticmagic (good, but SLOW since they're really in malaysia) and mikeswetpets. I did have some amazon swords from aquaticmagic die due to the cold weather, but I emailed them and a few hours later (probably morning in malaysia) they let me know they would ship replacements out.



> Mfgann, i actually am liking the look of anacharis, looks like a cool plant to me, but who knows im sure ill change my mind a thousand times over the course of the tank haha!


If you like it, it will grow like wildfire. 
The only ones you have to be really cautious about are the heavy root feeders like amazon swords. They might be very messy if you decide to move them.. many plants are far too easy to get out of the substrate. I often have to replant something a half-dozen times before it stops trying to float away.



> Also as to the vesuvious, i think it looks awesome also!! buttt its 5 bucks a pop  lol may not sound like a lot to yall haha but for the moment thats a big price for me when i have it to were my total order with shipping will be about 50 bucks! Ill look and i may up it to 2, but i was thinking maybe putting one on each side... i dunno, how easy does it grow more plants?


No idea.. never kept that one before. Let us know.



> Anyways guys Thanks for all the help im so happy im finaly getting close to getting it started!! but dont worry ill keep the questions coming! cuz guess whats next!! FISH hahaha *r2*r2*r2


A whole new can of worms to open.


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## jrman83

That's cool on the vesuvious. I didn't realize they were that much. They died off a little and then came back and are now growing close to an inch a day in my tank. Yours could differ. They propogate really fast and to be honest I didn't even realize it until I was looking down from the top. All the runners had gone out the backside but one and all of a sudden I have 6-7 new plants that are 2-3" long. Once it gets in there and gets going you'll have a new plant probably every week or so, so getting only one may not be that big of a deal. Mine took close to 3 weeks to get going though. Not all plants die off when they hit new water, but mine did. Maybe yours wont. Just don't think it is dead if it looks that way at first. In fact, a number of your plants may do that. I planted over 100 plants at once and over 50 of them died off and came back.


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## Amie

We're almost at the fish part!?!??!?!?!? Yay!!!!!! I LOVE picking fish!!!! Although, I have to say I have tried my best during this whole thread to simply present you with options and pros and cons where possible but I have tried not to tell you what to do or try to force any decisions on you. I hope I can do the same for you when it comes to the fish but I'm already thinking of a dozen of my faves LOL!!!!


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## Price

jrman, thanks glad to hear that!! and holy crap an inch a day?!?! when yall said plants that grow fast i was thinking maybe an inch a week lol dang thats alot well i really like the picutres of the vesuvious and id like to get a good little wall of it going that would be nice! haha 


And yes amie now the fish! haha glad your excited! well i alrieady know a few fish that i want to put in but theres plenty of room for others, so far all i know is a small school of neon tetras, a few cories for some bottom feeders and the fact that i like the way they look and they stay small! and one red tail shark, other than those prolly some snails and deff some shrimp. but for fish i dunno what else i have ideas but o well we can figure that out once i get the tank up and growing plants! hahaha im ready! and you have been a ton of help! your advice has help me make pretty much all the decisions haha, only thing i went against you is the fact im using prime haah but thats just me haha! 

Thanks guys and i wont be ordering plants till either saturday or sunday so let the suggestions if you have any keep on coming! and if any of you have any spare plants or clippings that you like to get rid of im up for donations! bahaha


*r2*w3


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## pinkice

Hi, I have just registered but have been reading this post with interest since it was started. I found it while researching to set up a planted 29 gallon. What I'm planning is very similar even down to cleaning a 29 that I had in storage, lol.

I've ordered my supplies and will be ordering my plants this weekend. I think it will be neat to compare posts and outcomes of our tanks since our projects are so similar. 

What do you think? I'm getting ready to start my post for the many questions I will probably end up having. Although a lot of the questions I had, have already been answered here  LOL, thanks for laying the ground work for me.

Rach


----------



## Price

pinkice said:


> Hi, I have just registered but have been reading this post with interest since it was started. I found it while researching to set up a planted 29 gallon. What I'm planning is very similar even down to cleaning a 29 that I had in storage, lol.
> 
> I've ordered my supplies and will be ordering my plants this weekend. I think it will be neat to compare posts and outcomes of our tanks since our projects are so similar.
> 
> What do you think? I'm getting ready to start my post for the many questions I will probably end up having. Although a lot of the questions I had, have already been answered here  LOL, thanks for laying the ground work for me.
> 
> Rach


Glad i could help!! haha and deffinatly ill be watching your thread also! And deffinatly will be neat to compare tanks and all! Good luck with yours!!


----------



## Price

oh also one more question, well a few about plant stuff!, i was thinking about the moss and iwas wondering what everyone thinks? like what moss do you have or reccomend, i really like the look of fire moss, and xmas moss, what do yall think? Second those marimo balls haha i can get like 5 itty bitty ones off ebay for like 6 bucks shipped, i was ondering what yall think of them? 

Thanks! cant wait i get my package tommorow morning ups comes by at around 11 am yahoooo!


----------



## Amie

Christmas Moss is suppose to be able to grow on ornaments and rocks and such. I've heard that Java Moss only grows on driftwood. Not sure on the Flame Moss. I have some Moss in my tank attached to a rock. Not sure yet how much I like it or not. I was hoping to get it to grow and cover the whole rock but so far it's on part of the rock and the new growth is all growing up in suspended air off the rock. It's attached o the rock but the new stuff is just growing up. I think I need to take it out and adjust it on the rock. The fry seem to like it a lot though and I'm thinking with a little better practice it will look better in the tank.

Don't have the Marimo Balls myself but they look nice and someone on here told me that Shrimp really like them. 

I heard the funniest story one time about Neons LOl. It was on this site on another thread. Guy had an Oscar in a 55gal tank. Not sure if you are familiar with them but Oscars get to 12 inches long. Big monster fish but so cool (I have one too). He wanted to add something to the tank. Pet store guy suggested Neons and told him if he added enough of them the Oscar would leave them alone because they would look like one big fish LMAO. And the pet store guy suggested adding 50 neons!!!! Well, the guy did. When he got home from work the next day he still had 4 LMAO. Oscar skipped the turf part of the meal but cleaned up on the surf LMAO!!!! 

Totally off topic I know but WAY too funny not to tell!!!


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> Christmas Moss is suppose to be able to grow on ornaments and rocks and such. I've heard that Java Moss only grows on driftwood. Not sure on the Flame Moss. I have some Moss in my tank attached to a rock. Not sure yet how much I like it or not. I was hoping to get it to grow and cover the whole rock but so far it's on part of the rock and the new growth is all growing up in suspended air off the rock. It's attached o the rock but the new stuff is just growing up. I think I need to take it out and adjust it on the rock. The fry seem to like it a lot though and I'm thinking with a little better practice it will look better in the tank.
> 
> Don't have the Marimo Balls myself but they look nice and someone on here told me that Shrimp really like them.
> 
> I heard the funniest story one time about Neons LOl. It was on this site on another thread. Guy had an Oscar in a 55gal tank. Not sure if you are familiar with them but Oscars get to 12 inches long. Big monster fish but so cool (I have one too). He wanted to add something to the tank. Pet store guy suggested Neons and told him if he added enough of them the Oscar would leave them alone because they would look like one big fish LMAO. And the pet store guy suggested adding 50 neons!!!! Well, the guy did. When he got home from work the next day he still had 4 LMAO. Oscar skipped the turf part of the meal but cleaned up on the surf LMAO!!!!
> 
> Totally off topic I know but WAY too funny not to tell!!!


Thanks! lol poor neons lol prolly never saw it coming lmao!!! 

So ive been tryna figure out how i want to put the plants in the tank... and im starting to feel like maybe i have to many? maybe im over thinking or thinking that these are going to be way bigger than they are haha i dont want a jungle just yet.... what do you think? to many plants or just right?


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## jrman83

It will be a busy tank, but may not be too many. That is why I was saying wait on the moss and look and see how it all works with what you have first. I think you won't want moss...just a feeling. I personally don't like the look of the balls as it is just a big algae ball. Never seen one look like the advertising pics of them, which looks pretty cool. I don't want something that just looks like a big green beach ball in my tank. If I had shrimp in a tank by themselves maybe.

I have a huge bunch of java moss, but I can see where it would be messy if I didn't have some separation from my plants. When it starts getting into your plants it doesn't look good, and I don't think you'll have much separation room but could be wrong.


----------



## Price

jrman83 said:


> It will be a busy tank, but may not be too many. That is why I was saying wait on the moss and look and see how it all works with what you have first. I think you won't want moss...just a feeling. I personally don't like the look of the balls as it is just a big algae ball. Never seen one look like the advertising pics of them, which looks pretty cool. I don't want something that just looks like a big green beach ball in my tank. If I had shrimp in a tank by themselves maybe.
> 
> I have a huge bunch of java moss, but I can see where it would be messy if I didn't have some separation from my plants. When it starts getting into your plants it doesn't look good, and I don't think you'll have much separation room but could be wrong.


hmmm this is what im afraid of haha, and for moss i was just gonna put it on one of my ornamnets im putting in, 
i may ex one of the anacharis bunches and just split the two into maybe three smaller bunches, hmmmm the sag comes with 10 plants and i guess i could put some of them close together, and the bananas are just cheap and i like the look, the ludwigia im gonna putin the middle of the tank, hmmmm i really like the look of the vesvuisu plant hmmmm maybe cut one wisteria too and seperate the bunch into two smaller bunches,,,, hmmmm i really dont want a super crowded tank were i cant put a lot of fish nor see them half the time, lol any suggestions?? i mean most of these plants reproduce fast so i can always rely on that, hmmmmmmm 


Anyways ups came today and i have all of my stuff so now this weekend will be time to move the stand and tank into my room along with the stuff and set it up when i get the plants, now its just what do yall think on my stocking of plants??? 

Amie??? haha

as i look at all the plants ive picked they are like ALL FAST growing haha and if that means a few inches a week then that will get old trimming all of them, what are some cool changes i could make to throw some slower growing plants like medium to slow growers haha, 

Id like to keep the sag, the vesvuislus, deffinatly the sword, and lol i dont know lol id like to have tall platns like anacharis in the back and wisteria it just seems everything is fast growing haha, hmmmm i dunno what does everyone reading these think??

im gonna edit this so much lol, okay i have some ideas but i really would like to see some pics! any of you with anything around a 30 gallon tank if you could post a pic and a list of plants and how many, also if your tank is bigger or smaller then still post if you would i just dont think seeing a 100 gallon would help me at all lol but if you like to show off thats perfectly fine


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> ...
> 
> Id like to keep the sag, the vesvuislus, deffinatly the sword, and lol i dont know lol* id like to have tall platns like anacharis in the back *and wisteria it just seems everything is fast growing haha, hmmmm i dunno what does everyone reading these think??


I think you've broke the code. *old dude


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## Price

beaslbob said:


> I think you've broke the code. *old dude


lol okay so i think i get what your saying but im not sure haha do you mean like ive figured it out on how to do it or did i say something really dumb ahahhaa  dont woory you can make fun of me it wont hurt my feelings im not bad sport  *r2


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> lol okay so i think i get what your saying but im not sure haha do you mean like ive figured it out on how to do it or did i say something really dumb ahahhaa  dont woory you can make fun of me it wont hurt my feelings im not bad sport  *r2


You are figuring out how to do it right!


my .02


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> lol okay so i think i get what your saying but im not sure haha do you mean like ive figured it out on how to do it or *did i say something really dumb* ahahhaa  dont woory you can make fun of me it wont hurt my feelings im not bad sport  *r2


the only 'dumb' statement (or question) is the one not stated.


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## jrman83

Many of those plants will grow to the top of your tank, but only a few of them will do very fast. It has a lot to do with your lighting also. Higher light, faster growth. There was only one of the plants you had, without reading back to where your list is,that I think will grow really fast - the Anacharis. It grows pretty fast, but also very easy to handle.

Even if you had twice the plants you listed don't think it will be a full time job pruning. I usually save all of my work for the weekend during my water changes and still only takes 15-20 for all of my tanks - taking care of the plants part anyway.


----------



## Price

alright thanks, well im bout to leave to go take my girl out to the movies, so i wont be back on till later tonight, so i posted this earlier but im really interested to see 

okay i have some ideas but i really would like to see some pics! any of you with anything around a 30 gallon tank if you could post a pic and a list of plants and how many, also if your tank is bigger or smaller then still post if you would i just dont think seeing a 100 gallon would help me at all lol but if you like to show off thats perfectly fine 


Also with everyone reading i was wondering what water changes does everyone do? i was hoping to not have to do very many, just curious, but id rather work the plants out first  

time for movies *pc*pc


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## Amie

I like the sound of your plants. I won't think you would have to worry too much about pruning and I think the tank would look nicely planted but not overcrowded with them.

Here are a couple of thread for you about my tanks. Both beaslbob tanks and I tried to document everything that I did/do with them in there so it's a good reference to look through and the older one has some good growth pictures:
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-beaslbob-build-8208.html
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-beaslbob-build-next-generation-10014.html


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## Price

Thanks! i read through most of both of them, thank you! 

So i guess i should be fine i was just worrying i dunno, i kinda forgot i have the sides i can plant on too i guess haha and always if theres to many i guess it doesnt take much to just pull them out and toss em lol!

Well last night i was reading and looking at all the stuff i got! as to the API test kit, how do yall get the water in the tubes? do you use a dropper or just scoop it in there? also has anyone ever spilt the ammonia test on them???? seems like its pretty dangerous being corrosive and acidic and all lol just wondering if they were over exagerating or if its really that bad lol 

Well thanks!!!! 

Happy new years eve!


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## jrman83

I just put the tube in the water to fill it. I got a drop of one of the ammonia parts on my carpet and it is now a different color there. Part 1 or 2 has bleach in it. I know bleach and ammonia create a serious gas reaction (remember that if ever cleaning with the two - very dangerous) when mixed, so I believe that is the foundation of the test. No danger on the test though.


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## Amie

I think I have gotten a few chemicals on me during testing. Nothing bad happened to me. Not sure if it would hurt if you happened to spill some on a cut or something. Just wipe it off if you get it on you no biggie. My kit came with a dropper thing. My master kit is a Nutrifin kit. I have a separate ammonia and ph kit and they are both API. API is sooooo much easier to read the results!!! 

nd Happy New Year to you too


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## mfgann

With things like dwarf sag and dwarf hairgrass they'll grow out more than up, propogating to cover the floor. Vals do something similar, but still grow very tall. Looks very nice though. As for the rest, Wisteria is the fastest growing thing I've seen, and I just keep clipping and replanting it. It is almost full enough for my taste, which means it'll get a "haircut" once a week. I think you'll find most things are easy to maintain.


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## Price

Okay sorry i havnt replied in a day or so, just made my order for plants its the list i mentioned earlier except only 2 bunches of anacharis i figure if i like it then i can always spread it out with cuttings!

Anacharis 2
Wisteria 2
Amazon Sword 1
Banana Plant 2
Echinodorus Vesuvius 1
Dwarf Subulata Sag 1 order of 10 plants
Red Wendtii 2 
Broad Leaf Ludwigia 1

brought my tank and stand in to my room last night made sure everything fit in good! now just to wait on them to arrive this week and set it all up!! 

i think this was anwsered earlier but for the prime everyone said i could add it after i put all the water in the tank?? and also would i leave the filter off while i put it in or should i go ahead and turn the filter on and put it in??

Thanks!!


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## Amie

If your adding Prime to the tank right from the beginning then add it to the water and turn the filter on after the tank is full. Not sure about yours in particular but some filters need to be filled with water manually before you plug them in. After that I never turn my filter off unless I'm doing a water change that will lower the water level lower then the filter intake. 

Don't forget to start adding some pics after you plant. Also, have you picked out where you are going to position everything yet?


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## Price

Amie said:


> If your adding Prime to the tank right from the beginning then add it to the water and turn the filter on after the tank is full. Not sure about yours in particular but some filters need to be filled with water manually before you plug them in. After that I never turn my filter off unless I'm doing a water change that will lower the water level lower then the filter intake.
> 
> Don't forget to start adding some pics after you plant. Also, have you picked out where you are going to position everything yet?


So what ur saying is plant, add water fill the tank all the way up, then add prime to the tank, then let it sit for how long before i turn the filter on? and yes i do have to prime the filter!

And also water changes what am i looking at to do? like how often, how much and all?


As to postioning ive had a few ideas lol i may get into paint and make a little picture and post it on here, of course i cant promise it will stay like that haha, i know the sword will be inthe back middle, and then anacahris and wisteria on both sides of it to cover the back, the sag will be postioned in various places, the vesuvius will be on one side of my tank thats not against some shelving, the ludwigia will be somewere in the middle of the tank on one side or another. something like that lol and then with cuttings from the wisteria and anacharis i can always put them in other places!

EDIT: Heres a little drawing in paint haha the small circle is my barrel skeleton with the air bubbles then the rectangle is a hiding log i got and then the other circle is an old decoration i have

Let me know if you think any movements would look better cuz im really not sure at the moment haha


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> So what ur saying is plant, add water fill the tank all the way up, then add prime to the tank, then let it sit for how long before i turn the filter on? and yes i do have to prime the filter!


the way I personally do it is to let the tank set for a week planted. So that things get balanced out, stabilized and the plants are in control. That way there is no added chemicals like prime, dechlors and so on.


> And also water changes what am i looking at to do? like how often, how much and all?


I just replace the water that evaporates with straight untreated tap water.


> ....


can't see pictures at work. shucks.


my .02


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## Amie

Not sure if I would use the Anacharis as a plant to help fill the background. Mine just looked like sticks in the back and was too thin to provide any cover. 

Most all of the rest looks good to me. Just remember to keep in mind that you want to try to leave a nice open space for the fish to swim. I can't wait to see the pics!!

Remember to: wet the peat before adding it to the tank. Don't wet the sand. And plant the plants after adding the sand but before adding the gravel.


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## Price

Gotcha, yeah i may move the ES to the back and the anacharis to the side there.. hmm ill figure it out im sure when i have the plants! 

And i checked it still proccessing so im hoping they ship out tommorow! 

Heres my plan for the set up first wet the peat moss put it in about an inch tall, then put the play sand about an inch, then plant all the plants in the sand, and put the gravel on top,

Now put all the stuff like heater and all in and set up the ornaments and everything, 

Now since im using prime, should i treat it bucket by bucket and add it in or just add the tap water all in and dose the whole tank? If i dose it either way should i let it sit some time before turning the filter on?? or would the filter not filter the prime out? 

And from there i suppose its 3 flakes a day and a test a day till i get the cycle done and then time to start adding fish!!! 

And of course i will be taking plenty of pictures! *w3*w3


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## jrman83

Just fill it and put the Prime in after.


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## Price

jrman83 said:


> Just fill it and put the Prime in after.


okayy thanks! what about the filter? should i turn it on as soon as i put the prime in or wait and let the prime get in the water first??


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## mfgann

Maybe put the prime in first, then kick it on. When starting a tank up I don't think it matters as much. Later you will want to be sure you don't put your filter media you are rinsing/cleaning in water that hasn't been treated, because the chlorine will kill the beneficial bacteria.


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## Price

alright so fill it up and add the prime then let it sit for what 30 min? then crank up the filter?


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## jrman83

It doesn't matter.


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## Amie

You can turn it on right away. It won't hurt the Prime or anything.


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## Price

Oh okay sweet!

Thanks!! 

I just checked my order at aquariumplants.com and still processing  im hoping they ship out tomorrow if not im gonna go crazy waiting another week!!


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## pinkice

Looks like we are pacing the floor together.. Just half way across the US from each other *sigh. I'm waiting on my plants too.


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## Price

pinkice said:


> Looks like we are pacing the floor together.. Just half way across the US from each other *sigh. I'm waiting on my plants too.


Haha i checked and emailed them they said that it should ship today..... course that was at 2 and i just checked and now the status is pending shipment, so hopefully this week for sure! i checked out your thread, you will deffinatly have to post pictures so we can compare our tanks haha seems perfect comparison 29 gallon planted tanks both doing the fishless cycle! I sure am ready to get this thing going lol


----------



## pinkice

I haven't decided if I'm going to do fishless with ammonia or use fish and let the plants help out. Last I checked.. they hadn't even taken the money out of my checking account yet *sigh


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## Price

ahh nice, i paid with paypal so it was instant, Im going to use fish flakes, i have an old can of goldfish food so 3 a day for my cycle!


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## Price

Okay so got another email from them this morning, said that their main packer was out sick yesterday and should be back today and get most of the orders out, and said that i should get the information on tracking and shipment in about 8pm tonight central time, so for me 2 and a half hours from now, im hoping i get it! also purchased one portion of flame moss and 2 portions of xmas moss and 5 extremely small marimo balls from aquatic magic, so ill have plenty of things in there, not sure what ill do with all the moss haha but ill figure it out, ill update again later with wether or not i the shipment went out or not! 

keep your fingers crossed


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## Amie

Aquaticmagic will take about a month to get to you. Take that time to figure out what you want to put the Moss on. If you want it on a piece of driftwood or rock or something that will give you time to boil it and soak it and get it all ready.


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## Price

im probably going to put one of the mosses not sure if ill do the xmas or the flame but put it on this hide a way log i got for my bottom guys, i think its a ceramic decoration, looks pretty realistic tho! which would connect to that better??
i also saw the rock you have some of your moss on where did you get it?? 


Also just got the email! Plants are on the way!! 2nd day air they will be here friday!!!! i cant wait!!!


----------



## pinkice

I got my email too.. Guess I'm going to be busy this weekend


----------



## Price

pinkice said:


> I got my email too.. Guess I'm going to be busy this weekend


Sweet!! I hope youll snap a few pics so we can see what we both start out with this weekend! Goodluck with yours!! also are you going to use any decorations in ur tank? or just strait plants?


----------



## pinkice

Price said:


> Sweet!! I hope youll snap a few pics so we can see what we both start out with this weekend! Goodluck with yours!! also are you going to use any decorations in ur tank? or just strait plants?


I'll take pics  If my cell doesn't take good ones, I'm gonna have to go out and buy a new card for my camera. 

I'm planning on putting some driftwood and I also still want to put in a couple of rocks. Also going back and forth about putting a bubble wand in the back. 

Good Luck with yours too!! This is going to be fun


----------



## Price

got all my plants today! got them floating in a bucket till i get home later tonight, everything looks good, the dwarf sag is wayyy taller than i was thinking haha, but thats my bad on that one, im sure burriedd a little will help, but thats all for now, ill have pics up later after i plant it!

Just saw they subbed my ludwigia repens for a ovalis..... i really hope it turns out like the repens haha i know its a 6 dollar plant vs the 2 dollar but i hope it looks like i wanted the repens to look o well guess we will see!


----------



## Amie

Well, the Dwarf will be buried in about 2 inches of substrate so that will shorten it up. My Moss came from......CNJ something or other. Another Malaysian seller from ebay. Got my Anuabis from him and they arrived in PERFECT shape (after a month of travel!!!). 

Can't wait to see some pics!!! You got a long night ahead of you LOL!!!


----------



## Price

lol you have no idea how long that night was, for one i didnt even get started on setting up the tank till about 10:30, so first was to open up my huge 3cubic feet of peat moss bag and take one big ziploc out of it and dumped it in the tank (first mistake already) so i poured water in the tank to make it muddy... yeah i know dumb haha, so after that mess was over with i realized i had put to much water when i put the sand on top cuz all the sand became soaking wet, all one inch or so of it, so that made planting fairly messy lol, so finally had everything somewhat planted lol of course it never turns out how you want it the first time lol, so i added my gravel started filling up the tank which that went fairly smoothly i guess haha as smooth as it can when ur doing it a 1:30 in the morning, 

So finally i got it all done, but i wish i could replant some stuff in different places but im hoping that after a few days they will stop being droopy and start going strait up, so for now this is where im out and ill show you a picture, i have one piece of anacharis and another plant i think its a runner from the ludwigia floating lol i need to plant the ludwigia just havnt mustered up the courage yet haha


Also for the layers, the front looks like a TON of gravel, thats cuz i shoved it down in there, i didnt like the look of the layers all that much, but i took a pic from the side so you can see the true layers


----------



## Amie

It looks Awesome!!!! You have a real knack for this!!!! Congrats on your cool looking tank!!! Makes the late night worthwhile huh? You might have some plants that lose their leaves for a little while because some of them take time to get used to different water. Don't forget to start adding your flakes now!!! 

Now, time to get down to the big business THE FISH YAY!!!!!


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> It looks Awesome!!!! You have a real knack for this!!!! Congrats on your cool looking tank!!! Makes the late night worthwhile huh? You might have some plants that lose their leaves for a little while because some of them take time to get used to different water. Don't forget to start adding your flakes now!!!
> 
> Now, time to get down to the big business THE FISH YAY!!!!!


Thanks!!

added my first set of flakes about an hour ago actually! and yes when i woke up it was nice to look at a tank that was full and not empty haha! 

And ill prolly test the water tonight really just to see where im starting at!

And yes now to the fish! haha i do have a starting question on fish, when the cycle is finished starting up and its safe, whats better to add first just any fish i want like some neons, or would it make mor sense to start with some cleaners like either shrimp, or the set of corries i want have?


----------



## jrman83

I see your vesuvious looked like mine did when it first arrived.


----------



## Price

jrman83 said:


> I see your vesuvious looked like mine did when it first arrived.


yeah it scares me haha cuz its the one i really like and want to have plenty of lol so im hoping after a few weeks it starts to brighten up a little


----------



## Price

Okay so as well as recording my results in a word document im going to record them on here also, so if everyone that follows this could check them out every once in a while to make sure everything is looking good!

So like 20 hours after having the tank start running, here are my results
Also i did add the recommended dosage of prime for my tank right when i got it full, and also these are about 8 hours or so after adding like 4 goldfish flakes, accidentally dropped an extra haha

Day one 1/7/11

Ph- 7.8
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0

thats all as far as i could tell, still getting used to the testing but those are right im pretty sure, well they are close for sure! haha


----------



## pinkice

It looks nice Price  I got mine planted too.. I'm going crazy trying to keep a piece of driftwood in place, lol
Let the journey begin


----------



## Price

Thanks!! 

I woke up today to the tank being a little cloudy but i assume thats expected, prolly from the fish food in there, so turned the lights on, turned the filter to full blast, and the tank is setting at about 77, 78 degrees!


----------



## Amie

Cloudy tank is usually a bacteria bloom brought on by ammonia. Don't worry this is a good thing. It means your tank is progressing.


----------



## Price

Okay so heres an update, first tank cloudiness seems to be clearing up slightly, been adding around 3 flakes every time i get up, leaving the light on about 12 hours a day for now, some of the flakes are really big some are small so i just try to get a medium of it. heres my tests for the past two days ph difference could just be me reading them wrong, some of them are so hard like the ammonia looks like it could be 0 but it has a slight green tint so im calling it a .25 for now, the nitrite is def the light purple and not that light blue so its deff .25 and nitrate is yellow as can be so its 0 for sure, so really no changes yet, took some of the floating leaves and things from planting out today, but other than that filter running, heater keeping it about 77 degrees, havnt really been running my skeleton in a barrel, more of a show piece and something for the fish in the future! lemme know what you think! 

Day two 1/8/11
Ph- 7.6
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0

Day three 1/9/11
Ph- 7.8
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0


----------



## Price

Okay guys couple of questions now!

First the water level is getting lower and lower and i think another couple days and itll be below my min submerse level on my heater, so for adding water how should i go about treating small amounts? just a drop or two? or should i just add tap water? 

Next for plants, ive got one stem and leaf off of a red wendtii that has gone limp i think i may have broke it when i planted it so i need to reach in there and get it out cuz all its doing is wrapping around the other stem. also for a question my vesuvius or however u say it isnt looking to good  but im hoping itll come back to life!! 

Now a real question, my filter where it poors the water back into the tank it creates a force going down in the water and moves some of the plants around and its doing it more now that the water level has gone down, has anyone made something to spread the force out a little? 

Well the water has cleared up the wisteria all looks good same with anacharis, and the ludwigia is looking GREAT, sword looks good well everything seems fine but the vesvius is scaring me just a little right now lol anyways no changes really yet on my water tests, ill post my next 3 days later tonight, 

Thanks


----------



## Amie

Fill back up with water. Not sure what I would suggest for the amount of Prime. If it's only a small amount of water then I probably wouldn't bother. if you want to be thorough call your town up and ask them if they add chlorine or chloromine to the tap water. If it's chlorine then you can leave the water out for 24 hours before putting it in the tank and then it will be gone out of the water anyway. That should cure the current problem too. I have not heard of anything that slows it down. Not sure if a biowheel would help with that or not but I don't have one of those either so can't tell you much about them. Not sure what to tell you with the plants. The one that looks sick just give it some time and the one that you think I broken, I would leave it alone too-just to be sure it's not going to make a comeback.


----------



## jrman83

It's okay to overtreat if using Prime. If you still don't have fish it won't matter anyway, but you do want to get out the chlorine/chlorimines.

If you've got a broken plant, just snip it just above where the break is and replant. You need to wait on the vesuvious. New leaves will form from the center. Once you get a few coming out and growing, what I did was pull the plant up and peel off the outer, older leaves and then replant. I have done it twice now a few weeks apart and finally have all nice new leaves growing and all the brownish colored ones are gone.

Your preference on your filter. I keep the water level up on my tank so that the water coming out of the filter is just flowing onto the top of my water, not crashing into it. HOB filters will beat up plants, bottom line. This is also why it is a good idea to shut them down when doing water changes.


----------



## Price

Okay so i added the water cup by cup from the sink, just added the smallest drop i could to every other cup figured id be alright, ive been doing my testing still everyday, and im still recording them all, but tonight i took some pictures and i want you to tell me what you think my readings are? i know they are crappy but they are what they are lol so if you could let me know what you think

First pic is of the regular ph kit results and then the high range ph 

Second pic is ammonia, nitrite, nitrate

Third is of the chart




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

this is what i get out of them 

Ph- 7.4 
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0


Let me kno what you think! 

Thanks!


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## Amie

I'm thinking 0 for nitrites but it could be the picture quality. Figuring out the colors can be tricky. Sometimes two colors look so close to each other. I usually hold the card sideways and put the test tube right on top of it. Usually then one looks closer then the other colors.


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## Price

i was thinking 0 also, could they be going down already? cuz i swear it looked alot more like .25 the past few nights than it did last night haaha 

thanks


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> i was thinking 0 also, could they be going down already? cuz i swear it looked alot more like .25 the past few nights than it did last night haaha
> 
> thanks


FWIW I have seen nitrItes drop from pegging the api test kit ( very dark purple/red 5ppm+++) to 0 ( very light transparent blue) in less then 2 days.

Once they start dropping they drop very fast.

my .02


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## beaslbob

I got a pm notice from this thread that was gone when I logged in.

So anyone pm me?


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## Price

Thanks beaslbob, but would it make sense this early for them to be at .25 and then go back to 0? or was i just reading them wrong most likely lol and it wasnt me if someone sent you a pm

thanks! ill post all the readings tonight i think ive got like 5 days by now lol


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## jrman83

Your nitrite doesn't quite look like zero, but not quite .25 either. It has a purplish hue I think. On one of my tanks that was nearly all I ever saw before it was finished.


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## Price

jrman83 said:


> Your nitrite doesn't quite look like zero, but not quite .25 either. It has a purplish hue I think. On one of my tanks that was nearly all I ever saw before it was finished.


thats what i was thinking, its kinda been like that the whole time although last night it seemed to have a little less of the purple to it, but you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to what i was thinking haha!


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## Price

Day four 1/10/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0


Day five 1/11/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day Six 1/12/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day Seven 1/13/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day eight 1/14/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25 (between 0-.25) 
Nitrate - 0


ammonia is getting darker, ph is still like that picture from above im just calling it at 7.4 im not sure how critical it is but i imagine it will change sometime


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## Auban

just wanted to give you props for all the homework you have done so far. its always good to see somebody trying to learn about thier hobby before jumping in to it. if you ever have any questions regarding the ecology or biology of anything you want to work with, i can probably answere them. for the last six years i have been working on self contained micro ecosystems, like a beaslebob tank you dont have to feed. so far my best work is a five gallon tank with about 7 fish. i started with 2 and havent fed them in well over 6 months... anyway, welcome to the forums!


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## Price

Auban said:


> just wanted to give you props for all the homework you have done so far. its always good to see somebody trying to learn about thier hobby before jumping in to it. if you ever have any questions regarding the ecology or biology of anything you want to work with, i can probably answere them. for the last six years i have been working on self contained micro ecosystems, like a beaslebob tank you dont have to feed. so far my best work is a five gallon tank with about 7 fish. i started with 2 and havent fed them in well over 6 months... anyway, welcome to the forums!



Thanks!! i knew there was more to it than just water and fish haha so like for when i have a problem with my truck, fourwheeler, computer, or hunting, i google and find a good forum and start asking questions! i knew i wanted to do it right, no need to spend money and waste it right? lol well thank you! and thats amazing not even feeding them?? how do you do that? lol let bugs fly in there? Just kidding haha but thats awesome!!


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## Auban

for my no-feed tank, i have a lot of plants and about 12 different types of wee beasties, everything from ostracods to black worms. they eat the algae and detritus and the fish eat them. it requires a special type of fish though, i prefer gambusia for their incredible hardiness and heterandria formosa for their small size. when the gambusia stop reproducing ill call the system balanced, but i havent gotten to that point yet


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## Auban

ha! just checked one of my closed systems, its about 5 months old and has about 10 water mites in it and a healthy colony of algae. not bad for 5ml of water and being comepletely sealed for almost half a year


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## Price

lol your speakin a whole diffrent language lol but reguardless that is awesome! lol did you study this in college or something? lol or just on ur own?


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## Auban

[/url][/IMG] this is what im talking about. the lighter is for size reference. i added several different types of algae, three ostracods, three water mites, and whatever came in with two ml of tank water. the ostracods died but the water mites are doing great. oh yeah, i never whent to college, i just buy lots and lots of college text books. and google helps too.


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## Amie

This might be a stupid question but what is the purpose of growing the mites in the 5mls of water? I get that's it's pretty cool that they are living and thriving in a completely closed eco system (sort o reminds me of the little guys in the locker in the movie Men in Black lol) but other then that one-is there a reason. I ask because it sounds like a science experiment type of thing, unless maybe your looking to get a colony of mites to feed to your other fish-then that makes perfect sense without the science project. So, to cut through my rambling I'm just wondering what made you decide to do that and what you hoped/are still hoping to achieve from doing it?


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## Price

tank sprung a leak ((( anybody that reads this go here and help me out http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/tank-sprung-leak-help-10839.html#post72356


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## Auban

actuall amie, it IS a science experiment. my end goal is to have a tank that can literaly keep itself going, no food, nothing added. in order to do that i have to understand every detail of the ecology i would have to set up. the best way i know of to do that is to set up closed systems that immitate what i want to achieve, and see what works. water mites eat bacteria and detritus, and very little algae. this gives me an idea of what i kind of animals i could use if i wanted to scale up the project. so far i havent had the guts to toss a few fish into a tank and seal it up and throw away the key. what i learn from these small organisms in these small sealed containers will give me more clues as to what really happens in a closed system, hopefully giving me a higher probablity of success when i finaly decide ive learned enough about ecology to give it a try. a closed system that can support a sustained colony of higher level organisms is a jewel of aquarim hobby that has always been a dream of mine. thats why i carry out these experiments.


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## Amie

I've seen some tanks that are similar. They come with the fish in the tank and I assume some sort of food supply as well and the tank lasts for years until the fish inside finally die at which point I guess you have a pointless cube. But, that would be awesome if you could make it so that it does simply recycle itself. You could actually watch your fishes grand children grow up (assuming you have parents that did not eat them, of course) with no intervention!! How big have you taken this project so far? Has evaporation factored into the equation or is that variable taken out because the containers are completely sealed?


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## Auban

with containers that are comepletely sealed, i havent tried any fish yet. i have made a couple tanks that have to be topped off, and get nothing else. i use gambusia for those. so far ive made it to the third generation, and its still going strong. they arent the prettiest things on the planet, but they take care of themselves. i believe i have seen the cubes your talking about, and i find them very insuficient for the fish. from what i can tell, those fish usualy end up starving to death. my tanks use live cultures of little water bugs, and only fish that are small enough to eat them.


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## Price

Alright so after the catastrophe last night, i got a new tank today and a new hood, ill ask questions so i can get it set up later this week, but for now all plants are planted and lights are on heater is up and filter is running, Downside..... i pretty much had to start over, new peat moss, new sand, new gravel, used about 10-15 gallons of the old tank water, the rest is all new, went ahead and threw some fish flakes in, im going to test in a couple hours after everythings kinda settled down see where im out on that, so well thats where im at, didnt like doing it but had to so i guess thats what i got for now ill post the test results after i do them hopefully im not set back tooo terribly much lol but who knows


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## Auban

at least the new one shouldnt leak on you. i would still reseal the old one though, its good to know how, and for the cost of sealant and a pack of razor blades you could get a second usable tank. besides, if you mess it up you end up with what you already have; a tank that wont hold water.


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## Price

Auban said:


> at least the new one shouldnt leak on you. i would still reseal the old one though, its good to know how, and for the cost of sealant and a pack of razor blades you could get a second usable tank. besides, if you mess it up you end up with what you already have; a tank that wont hold water.


true true, i may do that, but itll be a few weeks before i get to that haha, after today, i have tomorow off and then college starts back up woo hoo haha not, but anyways itll get a little busier but i may pick up a tube of sealant on my next petsmart trip haha


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## Price

Okay so bout to go to bed but im curious bout my new hood so heres the deal, its holds one 24"(i believe) 20 watt bulb..... do they make one that small thats gonna be 50 60 watts??

also tested the water, ph is the same, nitrites are down to 0  ammonia is close to .25 maybe a little less (thats from were it was getting greener everyday, and nitrates are still 0


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## Auban

personaly, i rarely ever pay attention to watts. there are so many different kinds of lights now that the watt per gallon rule kind of breaks down. when considering the requirements of plants, it further breaks down. here is a link that probably explains more than you ever wanted to know about lighting. its a long boring read if the subject doesnt interest you, but its the best guide i have found for lighting. Aquarium Lighting; Kelvin, Nanometers, PAR, Bulb, Watt, MH, LED, Light Basics.


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## Price

so would a light like the coralife 20 watt 50/50 bulb be enough for a 29 gallon tank??


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## Auban

i cant find a lumen rating for those, but i think two would do fine. the kelvin rating is right where you want it, the mix between the two lights means your plants are getting light just above and just below green light, which most plants cant use. so the light is defenitely the right type, whether or not one would be enough i dont know.


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## Price

okay so anybody else got opinions on the light situation do they make a bulb that would work? 

Also cycle seems to be going again, i guess the tank water helped cuz the ammonia is still at .25 but it was slightly greener today, ph is like 7.6 or something i dunno ill figure that out later, nitrite has gone back to not .25 but not 0, could be cuz i put a ton of fish food in that first day cuz i was upset haha, so heres a question any way to maybe speed this cycle up? like i really want the cycle to finish haha like not rushing it cuz i want it to be done and me be able to add fish food and everything for a week or two and everything still stay at 0 lol so any chance of something? maybe like the tetra safestart stuff? or i dunno lol just anything haha not that im wanting to put fish in fast just want to add fish food and know that everything is good! haha well let me know what yall think, amie, jr, beaslbob, auban.

Thanks yall after i get this idea settled i have fish questions!! (Amie  ) lol


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## jrman83

I don't think you or your plants will be very happy with a light that low in rating. The plants may do okay though, just grow very slowly.

On your cycle.....patience, my son.


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## Price

jrman83 said:


> I don't think you or your plants will be very happy with a light that low in rating. The plants may do okay though, just grow very slowly.
> 
> On your cycle.....patience, my son.



I figured that on the light, i wish i could find a t8 that was aroudn 50 watts cuz that would be perfect, its a nice hood but i guess just isnt meant for plants.. i wonder if i could buy a fixture to put in it and refit it with like those small tubes or something t5 i think i dunno i really would like a bluish tint to my lighting but for now my spirals seem to be working.

and again on the cycle i kinda figured that was the anwser haha, just thought maybe some of that safestart would help but ill just keep adding and keep letting it go till it gets there hopefully within a couple weeks haha 


alright well for a fish question i have a good idea of the fish i want to keep in it and in the end it will be stocked im sure to the max haha but for my first set of fish im curious what should i do, any fish like some neons, or should i start with some bottom feeders like the set of cories i want, or should i put some shrimp first or snails? lol just curious whats a good point to start at 

Thanks!


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## Auban

guppies and platies would be an obvious start. corys are pretty tough fish that go pretty well with other fish, so thats a good choice. so are loaches and botias, if you avoid the larger ones. if your tank is fully cycled, you could probably keep more delicate fish like neon and mayby even rummynose tetras, as their biggest requirement is stable water and a peaceful setting. it really depends on what you want. do you want a peacefull tank? active tank? do you want fish that you can interact with(some of my fish swim right into my hand if i put it in the tank)? here is a link that might help you decide, it describes fish that are best suited for an uncycled tank, but the site also has a lot of information about a lot of other fish too. 
Hardy fish for new freshwater aquariums.

look through the articles on the site, it has a lot of good info. 
(my wife keeps mentioning lemon tetras to me, i may have to go add some to my community tank...).


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## Price

well they wouldnt be going in until the tank was fully cycled so no worries there,

i know a good amount of fish i want in the tank in the end so ill go ahead and list them

Corries

One red tailed shark

Neons

shrimp

platies or glofish not sure which and maybe both if i have the room 

id also like to add a kholi loach or two but im thinking this may overcrowd the bottom of the tank.. i just love how active they are and fast they swim around haha 

i also want to leave some room open for another choice of fish later on down the road also but those are ones for now, really not into guppys i mean i love the way they look but i know they breed like crazyyy and id hate to have to get rid of their babys all the time lol


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## Auban

the only compatability issues i see would be between the shrimp and any bottom feeders. if you can find them, bamboo shrimp should work with them though, they are big enough to not look like a snack. if your adventurous, you might even b able to catch a native fish, depending on what is near you. some of the smaller sunfish can be quite beautiful, same with darters. of course, you would have to look up local laws on that first. i got into native fish when i got a blackbanded sunfish, and its been like a drug since then, i just keep getting more and more  overall though, your on the right track for stocking the tank. i would go with ghost shrimp first if you want to try small shrimp, just because they are only 10-20 cents a piece, so if it goes wrong you wouldnt be out much money.


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## Price

okay quick question on my cycle, i read that keeping at a higher temp speeds up the bacteria, i turned my heater up to about 85 or 86, ive read that plants will be fine, but i want to make sure, is this going to effect my plants and what is everyones opinions on this??


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> okay quick question on my cycle, i read that keeping at a higher temp speeds up the bacteria, i turned my heater up to about 85 or 86, ive read that plants will be fine, but i want to make sure, is this going to effect my plants and what is everyones opinions on this??


My opinion is you shouldn't have to raise the temperature (or for that matter do much of anything else) with thriving plants in the tank.

my .02


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## jrman83

Everyone wants their cycle to get over with to hurry out and buy fish...sucks waiting it out, huh? I know the pain. I did a fishless cycle on one of my 125g tanks and it took a month. Hated looking at that fishless tank everyday. When I stocked it I put 45 fish in it the first day.


----------



## Price

jrman83 said:


> Everyone wants their cycle to get over with to hurry out and buy fish...sucks waiting it out, huh? I know the pain. I did a fishless cycle on one of my 125g tanks and it took a month. Hated looking at that fishless tank everyday. When I stocked it I put 45 fish in it the first day.


lol it does suck, haha but i guess maybe ill lower it back down just put it at like 80 only 3 degrees higher than what i had it at lol although leaveing it warming up over night at 86 the water is slightly cloudy again, i do have another question, on plants, is there anything while doing fishless cycle like a tablet or anything i could throw in there just to help them out? they all seem to be living and be growing but the sword has alot of brown on leaves and same with all of them wisteria has blackened dying leaves, should i just let it be or is their something that is actually safe to just add in there to help them out over the weeks of cycling? 

Well anyways i guess back down to the fish haha what about you beaslebob and jrman what do yall think would be better to add in the beginning?


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## jrman83

Seachem Flourish may be enough of what you need...if you need anything.

I would say go with whatever fish you like. I would start with relatively easy fish if this is your first time having tanks. Community fish are usually pretty easy.


----------



## Price

jrman83 said:


> Seachem Flourish may be enough of what you need...if you need anything.
> 
> I would say go with whatever fish you like. I would start with relatively easy fish if this is your first time having tanks. Community fish are usually pretty easy.


deffinatly, i guess my main question is When the cycle is done and its time that i can add some fish, is there an order to go in, such as should i get some corries to clean up the bottom first or should i get some of any fish i want to start with, and then throw some shrimp or the snails in their for cleaning lol or is it just whenever i want to add whatever fish or snail or anything lol 

and would the flourish harm any of my plants or would it harm the cycle in any way? lol and of course do you use it when cycling?


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## FlatPanda

Price said:


> deffinatly, i guess my main question is When the cycle is done and its time that i can add some fish, is there an order to go in, such as should i get some corries to clean up the bottom first or should i get some of any fish i want to start with, and then throw some shrimp or the snails in their for cleaning lol or is it just whenever i want to add whatever fish or snail or anything lol



I'm in the process of starting some new tanks to- here is what I come across far as order from what you listed:

Start with the Platies and glowfish- they are the hardiest

Since your tank will be cycled- then add the neon tetras - also, take an hour to acclimate them- they are more fuss then most.

Add the Corries and shrimp last, they benefit form a bottom being mature.

I am not sure about the Red tailed shark- he is out of my range of knowledge. EDIT: from another site:



> Temperament / Behavior : These fish can be hostile and are not recommended for community fish tanks with smaller tropical fish. They seem to behave when kept with larger fish.


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## Price

FlatPanda said:


> I'm in the process of starting some new tanks to- here is what I come across far as order from what you listed:
> 
> Start with the Platies and glowfish- they are the hardiest
> 
> Since your tank will be cycled- then add the neon tetras - also, take an hour to acclimate them- they are more fuss then most.
> 
> Add the Corries and shrimp last, they benefit form a bottom being mature.
> 
> I am not sure about the Red tailed shark- he is out of my range of knowledge. EDIT: from another site:


thanks! thats what i was wondering for the most part! and as for the red tailed shark, ive done alot of research on them, and they are about the only one of all the diffrent ones that can normally be kept in a community tank, but the key is they have to be the ONLY shark of any species especially their own in the tank and most of the time they are fine and cause no problems as long as they have a spot to claim as their own, so he will be one of my later editions and will watch him very close hopefully i get a nice one if not then well he may have to be returned or something but im really hoping he works out good! hah

Thank you! as to corries and shrimp what kind are your favorite? ive looked at albino corries but still not sure, as for shrimp im going to put af ew ghost in cuz they are cheap to see how they work out first, but what kind do you like? 

also for you or anybody else reading this, what is the opinion on snails?? what are the best what do they best clean up, what look the coolest, and what do you keep?


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## Amie

Have you thought about a silver shark? They are the most peaceful one I know of. They are territorial and don't want other fish in their space but are much more likely to chase them off then to try to nip at them for going in there. 

Have you thought about adding a CO2 system to your tank? I have them in both of my planted tanks. They are DIY systems and only cost me about $5 to start off. The plants really like it too and they grow very quickly in appreciation of it. In fact, the CO2 in my tanks has been not producing for about 2 weeks or more now and I didn't notice (youngest daughter just had surgery last week so the fish have taken a major backseat lately) until the Wisteria started to look 'off' the leaves got a little lighter and some of them melted off so I remade the CO2 system yesterday and the plants will look great in no time. 

Also, not sure what other order I would go in but I would add the shark last. That way he is coming into the tank and displaced from his own territory and everyone else already has their territory staked out should help him no get too territorial. But, there is one thing to remember about the fish though-sometimes personality can get in the way of what you know about a fish. sometimes a shark can be the most timid thing in the tank and others the neon tetra can be the terrorist. Sometimes they just don't act like their breeding says they should.


----------



## FlatPanda

Price said:


> Thank you! as to corries and shrimp what kind are your favorite? ive looked at albino corries but still not sure, as for shrimp im going to put af ew ghost in cuz they are cheap to see how they work out first, but what kind do you like?


Because I have small tanks- I will be getting either Jullii or Albino Cories (neither get bigger that 2.5 inch max). I think both are cute- just depends who is in stock the week I buy the cories.

I'm new to shrimp, so I got 2 of the biggest Ghost Shrimp that were in the tank to see how the fish would react. At .49 cents each- if the fish ate them, they would just been expensive snacks . However the Platies and Danio are getting along fine with them- no chasing or nipping- they even share hiding nooks with them.

I don't know what snail I got- I asked for a fresh water that low to no reproducer. He handed me one with a dark brown/black strips one. Pretty active guy. I need to look up the name next time I visit the store.


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## Price

Amie said:


> Have you thought about a silver shark? They are the most peaceful one I know of. They are territorial and don't want other fish in their space but are much more likely to chase them off then to try to nip at them for going in there.
> 
> Have you thought about adding a CO2 system to your tank? I have them in both of my planted tanks. They are DIY systems and only cost me about $5 to start off. The plants really like it too and they grow very quickly in appreciation of it. In fact, the CO2 in my tanks has been not producing for about 2 weeks or more now and I didn't notice (youngest daughter just had surgery last week so the fish have taken a major backseat lately) until the Wisteria started to look 'off' the leaves got a little lighter and some of them melted off so I remade the CO2 system yesterday and the plants will look great in no time.
> 
> Also, not sure what other order I would go in but I would add the shark last. That way he is coming into the tank and displaced from his own territory and everyone else already has their territory staked out should help him no get too territorial. But, there is one thing to remember about the fish though-sometimes personality can get in the way of what you know about a fish. sometimes a shark can be the most timid thing in the tank and others the neon tetra can be the terrorist. Sometimes they just don't act like their breeding says they should.


ive thought about the silver sharks but from what ive found the red tail is the smallest a 4.5-5.5 inches, where as all the others get to a foot or more in length, 

I remember you telling me about your co2 system, and i love cheap and DIY go ahead and shoot me a pm if youd like and if you dont mind with the details of that id love to hear more on it, I do have a 20oz co2 tank for paintballing but i bought it and never used it always ended up playing at places that supplied nitrous, 

Hope your daughter is alright! and recovering well!! 

When you say melting on wisteria is it like the leaves start turning black and shrivling up from the outside of the leaf in lol cuz thats what mine are doing, however not all of them! it is growing more everyday and looks good but somethin as simple as 5 dollars i can deal with, i also may try to pick up a small bottle of flourish nxt time im out at petsmart!

Thanks!! and also amie whenever you get a chance id love to hear your opinions on order of fish and what fish!

Thanks also to you panda i was thinknig the same way you are about the ghost shrimp!


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## Auban

as for the DIY CO2 system, its actualy quite simple. i take a plastic bottle and drill a hole in the top with a knife, i put the tip of the knife on the cap and twist it back and forth untill it drills a hole just slightly smaller than the diameter of air tubing. i then cut the end of the air tubing at an angle so it has a sharp point. after that i push the point through the cap and pull the tubing through with a pair of pliers. all that is left to do after that is put sugar and bakers yeast in the bottle and screw the cap on, it will start producing Co2 within a few hours. it helps to have a diffuser to break up the Co2 bubbles, but if you dont have one you can just attatch the tube to the filter intake, it will break up the bubbles into smaller pieces.


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## Amie

I am the wrong person to ask about which type of fish to keep in the tank I have 5 tanks because I like so many different types that are not compatible with each other that I wanted them anyway so got a new tank for them LOL. As to the types, personally to start off I would look at two things: 1. Figure out what you want and want to avoid in the tank (for example, if you want to avoid raising fry then you might want to get some species that don't have much maternal instinct or get all the same sex. But, if you do that then you have to be careful which types you get because sometimes an all male community of certain fish can get aggressive with each other......sort of like The Sisters in the Shawshank Redemption). 2. Pick your one fish that you want more then the others and build your tank around that fish. Personally, I have many different fish that I think are incredible: Spiny Nosed Eels, Angel Fish, Glass Cat Fish, Upside Down Catfish etc. When you start with the one that you really want then you can decide what other ones would look nice and get along well in that tank. Then we can concentrate on numbers and adding order. Take a look here: Just Tropical Fish-A-Z Common Name when you click on the name then it shows a picture and some stats. 

I did have one Wisteria like that. But it was after the CO2 gave out. I think he starved. 

I'll PM you with the CO2 stuff. 

Ps- I don't own shrimp so I'm not sure for sure but I think a lot of fish like to eat them so if you want to go with shrimp then your going to be looking at very peaceful fish. I THINK confirm that for sure with someone that does have them.


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## Price

Okay so in the little free time that i have.... (not at school, doing schoolwork, or playing black ops) ive looked up and come up with a somewhat kind of list i guess, Keep in mind looking at this that it is of course not set in stone nor is it going to happen fast i dont even plan on adding fish every week! maybe every two or when i get a chance to pick some up here and there! 

Top level all ive come up with are some GloFish not positive on the number yet!

Middle level - im pretty set on Neons... although there are other tetras that have caught my eye that look neat! and also some either platies or mollies, i have a question, with brreds such as mollies or platies, is it okay to have diffrent kinds of them together? such as the black mollies and silver mollies, or sunset platies and wag platies? to make up a small school or should you have 4 or 5 of each kind?

Bottom, heres where there are so many cool looking fish!!!! I know for sure a group of about 3 Corries, then i really would like one red tail shark, as well as two black khuli loaches


As to some cleaners, i will try glass shrimp to see how they do in the tank before speding a ton of money on some cooler looking ones, and also plan to have a variety of snail, pretty much if i see a cool one ill grab it haha! 



Now again this is all added in over months of time, i know when you start adding all these up it gets maybe a little bit over the standard rule but im thinking that they should be okay, and again i can always change my mind! haha



WEll guys let me know how yall think this would go, and also any other opinions

Also added a filter diverter DIY to keep it from beating my plants and i must say it works AWESOME and its free!!! DIY Filter Diverter/Diffuser - thats the method i used although i used a gatorade bottle and i did not use a file to sand edges as they all seemed smooth! i also may use an idea i read to put another set of biofilter in it to collect bacteria! but i may wait and see if any fish like to play in it like ive read before i fill it up haha! 

Well guys thats my update also on my cycle ammonia has hit 1.0 and rising!


----------



## jrman83

Fish are fish so I never look at where they may dwell. Not bad to think about, but I guess I never really give it much thought and get what I want. I like Cardinals over Neons...they look nearly the same but the Cards are more colorful.

I would have thought you'd be longer along in your cycle. You've been using flakes, right? That would explain things a little.


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## Lil Gashog

Black ops is beast!(wii) lol If your looking for hardy fish i'd go with platy's,danio's,maybe a male betta

EDIT:I also would prefer cardinals over neons,glofish are cool too!


----------



## Amie

How does this sound:
5 Neon Tetras
1 Red Tail Black Shark
1 Molly (I don't think it matters if you mix black and silver etc)
4 Black Fin Cory (probably does not matter which Corys but those were the ones I put in the calculator)
5 Kuhli Loaches
5 Glowfish (by gowfish I'm assuming you mean Glowlight Tetras)

According to the calculator this would put the tank at 100% full. The calculator also says that the tetras should not go in with the shark that the shark is too aggressive for them. With the Mollys/Platys keep a 3 to 1 female to male ratio. If not then they tend to harass the women to death. They are horn balls!!!!

Here is a link to the calculator: AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor with your results already in it. You can also mess around with it there by taking fish out and putting others in. It's a little long but they seem to usually have pretty good info.


----------



## Amie

PS-my danios were nasty!! I ended up bringing them back. They did not attack the other fish but they spent all day chasing and nipping at each other in the tank and all the other fish in the tank were in the corners not really swimming around or anything. I will never get them again but my community fish are all wimps (guppys and glass catfish and the like)


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## Price

Well to Jrman, i did have the tank disaster 9 days in and basically had to start over, so that prolly explains it unless you were considering that into it!

I will also look into the cards! 

Lil Gashog, yes black ops is beast! too bad you dont have 360! lol

and to Amie! I will check that calculator out and mess around with it for sure and see what all i can come up with! And for the GloFish i dont mean the tetras actually, these are the fish i mean, these, GloFish - Tropical - Fish - PetSmart

Well i will deffinatly mess around with that calculator! it seems cool! and see what all i can come up with! 


Thanks!!!


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## dirtydutch4x

Well heres my $.02
I think people get carried away with the calculator idea and whats right and wrong. If your readings are right and maintenance is proper the calculator and "rules "mean nothing in my honest self opinion. I've learned the right number of each species and the right maintenance can counter the "rules" of the HOBBY. For the individuals that live by the rules of the hobby I applaud you but for those of us that want the tank that we close our eyes and see it's trial and error as well as responsible fish keeping. I may be crazy but I believe I get to know my fish and over time and slowly adding livestock I know if my fish are as most say "happy". Rules ruin the actual enjoyment that the average fish keeper gets from their experience and more and more people everyday want to criticize for what we who enjoy our experience choose to to do. Although I will say I would take advice from SusanKat any day, I have read a lot of her posts and she knows her stuff as well as beaslbob. Sorry if spelling is wrong. I think it's great to have so many educated people here to get information from just can't stand the idea of rules to fish keeping. I know I will get bashed for this but I've been here for a while now and have read a lot and not said much, but I think that the "rules thrown at noobs are kind of off setting and will turn people from the hobby because it starts to sound like work and not fun. Advice is golden but help without the overkill. Sorry to anyone I offended with this just how I feel.


----------



## beaslbob

dirtydutch4x said:


> ...
> Although I will say I would take advice from SusanKat any day, I have read a lot of her posts and she knows her stuff as well as beaslbob.
> 
> ...
> .


Hopefully better. *old dude

not worth .02


----------



## Amie

Dutch: Here is my reasoning for the calculatoretermining yourself what works for you and getting used to your fish and being able to understand by watching them and being able to see any problems by doing that is marvelous, BUT I really think that is something that comes with a lot of fish keeping experience. When someone is just starting out I think it's a good idea to go with the general rules because they usually work. If you put fish together that the calculator says are compatible then most likely your not going to have any problems with them being together. If you wanna try adding a fish that does not fit then that's fine too but you might well be increasing your chances of having personality clashes in the tank and that's something I think can turn a new fish keeper into an ex fish keeper. Also, I assume that you are probably like me and if you added fish to your tank that did not get along then you could simply remove them and put them in another one of your tanks. But, Price only has 1 tank at this point so removing a potentially aggressive fish from the tank is a little more tricky. So, because he's new and only has one tank then I pointed him to the calculator so that the fish he decides to get will most likely be along. Can fish that are not normally known to get along be put together? Sometimes, sure. But, should an inexperienced fish keeper try it? Not unless they want to deal with the potential trouble if they don't get along.


----------



## Price

Okay not sure if you saw my post in reply to yours amie on the page before it ended up being the last one on the page lol, but ive done some messing around and have 2 days off due to ice storm and had some time to mess with the calculator and look up things and i came up with this

AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

but here are my thoughts, i know its always better to start a tank with some hardier fish, and i figured id start with either platys or mollys and i think i like mollies better, so here is what im thinking i will try to (if petsmart has both and if i can get a nice person to catch them for me) get one male silver molly, and one female silver molly and one black female molly, and not worry about adding platys until later on! and my reasoning is that if the mollies have babies and some live then i would not worry with platys and keep the babies that live! 

not sure if its a good idea or not and not sure if itd even be possible to get someone to pick out some males and females for me lol. 

let me know what you think!

Also question, im not planning on making a special trip or anything but if i was to come across some some pure ammonia, and grabbed a bottle would it hurt anything switching from flakes to ammonia? i mean the flakes are working, and i know like everyone i want my cycle to hurry up but i just id like to see some better movements haha like some dark colors haha! just seems like itd be better, but i just want to make sure there are no consequences in doing this after starting and all!


----------



## Amie

There should not be any real consequences to using the pure ammonia. I don't think it will get you there any faster though. The only place where ammonia would shave off a few days is at the beginning because you have to initially wait for the food to break down and give off ammonia but you have passed that part and you always now have flakes breaking down to give off ammonia (that's the reason for adding them everyday). It's not a method that I have ever used because some ammonias are safe to use and others are not. Some have additives......scents maybe. I'm not 100% sure what the additives are but when I read that the first time and the way to tell the difference was how much it foams when you shake it I decided against it. But, to each him own. 

It's not hard to fell female from male live bearers. If you want I can get a few pics and explain it. Also, if you are getting a male for breeding purposes I suggest watching the tank for awhile. The male fin that they use for mating is plainly visible and if you watch the tank for awhile you will see the healthier ones trying to mate with the females (it looks hilarious IMO). So then you don't have to depend on the store clerk to know the difference. Also, you want to watch how aggressive they are when catching them because the fin can be damaged pretty easily and your poor mating male will become celibate. You can also watch the females and see if you can figure out which ones are pregnant. Might be more tricky with silver and black mollys because they won't show a gravid spot (a spot on their belly that is black and that's where the eggs are. It gets bigger when pregnant). The only think you will be able to go on really is size. The fatter the better chance of pregnant. Also, if you were sure that the females are pregnant when you get them then if you want you can skip the male and get 3 females. Live bearing females can store sperm from 1 mating and produce fry with that one mating for 6 months to a year after wards. You might also want to think about a fry net to keep them safe from the adults until they get bigger to keep as many of them as possible from getting eaten. 

I prefer Mollys too myself. Much cuter then the Platys. 

Are you having an ice storm now? In Texas???


----------



## jrman83

I like the ammonia better because after you get done with the flakes you have to really give a good gravel vacuuming to get that stuff out of there. If the label doesn't tell you, shake the bottle. If it foams and doesn't dissapate, don't use it. If it bubbles up and goes away pretty quick, it is probably safe to use. Just be sure to read the labels also and read over the ingredients.

Yes, if you have trouble telling the difference for Mollies I can take pics of male and female also. It is important for you to know and not rely on the person netting your fish on knowing themselves. Some don't.


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> There should not be any real consequences to using the pure ammonia. I don't think it will get you there any faster though. The only place where ammonia would shave off a few days is at the beginning because you have to initially wait for the food to break down and give off ammonia but you have passed that part and you always now have flakes breaking down to give off ammonia (that's the reason for adding them everyday). It's not a method that I have ever used because some ammonias are safe to use and others are not. Some have additives......scents maybe. I'm not 100% sure what the additives are but when I read that the first time and the way to tell the difference was how much it foams when you shake it I decided against it. But, to each him own.
> 
> It's not hard to fell female from male live bearers. If you want I can get a few pics and explain it. Also, if you are getting a male for breeding purposes I suggest watching the tank for awhile. The male fin that they use for mating is plainly visible and if you watch the tank for awhile you will see the healthier ones trying to mate with the females (it looks hilarious IMO). So then you don't have to depend on the store clerk to know the difference. Also, you want to watch how aggressive they are when catching them because the fin can be damaged pretty easily and your poor mating male will become celibate. You can also watch the females and see if you can figure out which ones are pregnant. Might be more tricky with silver and black mollys because they won't show a gravid spot (a spot on their belly that is black and that's where the eggs are. It gets bigger when pregnant). The only think you will be able to go on really is size. The fatter the better chance of pregnant. Also, if you were sure that the females are pregnant when you get them then if you want you can skip the male and get 3 females. Live bearing females can store sperm from 1 mating and produce fry with that one mating for 6 months to a year after wards. You might also want to think about a fry net to keep them safe from the adults until they get bigger to keep as many of them as possible from getting eaten.
> 
> I prefer Mollys too myself. Much cuter then the Platys.
> 
> Are you having an ice storm now? In Texas???


Thanks!! and yes if you could i would love to hear some better detail on how to tell them apart! also i guess my deal is i like mollys more and i was going to get the male and the two females, and my thoughts are if they dont breed thats fine with me, if they do and have babies i will probably just let nature take its course in the tank and if a few survive then im fine with that! but i dont want like a tankful of mollies haha! 

and yes i know right ice storm in texas! super bowl week too! haha we are hitting record lows and schools been closed two days now, im crossing my fingers that they go ahead and close it tm too! and its not that its still snowing or sleeting or anything its just its staying way below freezing so none of the ice on teh roads is melting! haha! luckily we have power!! had a few blackouts this morning but not bad!


----------



## Amie

Here is a photo of a male Molly: http://www.topnews.in/files/male-molly-fish.jpg

Here is a female: http://www.fishyfriendsaquatics.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tmpphpoqhnb8.jpg

The difference is in the fin on their under belly. Males have a longer thin fin (called a gonopodium) and females have a full regular looking fin in that place. Lots of times you can watch a tank with males and females in it and you will see the males trying to mate. They will come up next to a female and their fin will stick out perpendicular to their body. It is hilarious to watch!! But the fin can get damaged very easily so a lot of males are impotent and don't slide up next to a female and stick their fin out. 

Well, I guess the weather is not too much warmer down there right now then it is here!! Guess most of you guys down there are big believers in climate change right now!!!


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> Here is a photo of a male Molly: http://www.topnews.in/files/male-molly-fish.jpg
> 
> Here is a female: http://www.fishyfriendsaquatics.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tmpphpoqhnb8.jpg
> 
> The difference is in the fin on their under belly. Males have a longer thin fin (called a gonopodium) and females have a full regular looking fin in that place. Lots of times you can watch a tank with males and females in it and you will see the males trying to mate. They will come up next to a female and their fin will stick out perpendicular to their body. It is hilarious to watch!! But the fin can get damaged very easily so a lot of males are impotent and don't slide up next to a female and stick their fin out.
> 
> Well, I guess the weather is not too much warmer down there right now then it is here!! Guess most of you guys down there are big believers in climate change right now!!!


alright cool cool! looks like it shouldnt be to hard to tell em apart, mainly just finding a patient person at petsmart bahaha my local one has really nice people tho so it wont be hard! hopefully i get one with a good fin! if not hopefully some that are prego already haha!! of course im still a little ways away from fish still! 

And yeah weather sucks right now haha luckily we only got one day of ice and sleet, but its stayed around and they already cancelled school for tommorow too lol so i only had one day this week cuz i have no classes fridays anyways, temps are supposed to get above freezing saturday but this is also super bowl week! and its in Dallas bahahaha so im sure itll never be here again, poor jerry jones baha, but its not too bad, at least we got power!


----------



## Price

okay so about a week ago a couple of my anacharis floated up top and so i just let them all be cuz every few days a few more would do the same but now i have like 7 peices of it floating which is fine with me im leaving them for now, but as a whole even the planted ones really havnt grown... much if any at all, and i picked up a peice that was floating while adding flakes and all the leaves fell off!!! i was shocked i knew the leaves looked bad but i figured theyd regain their color lol but no they jsut fell off so looking at the bottom i noticed that theyre all over the gravel little strands, i know i neeed to do a little cleaning of some dead leaves but im wondering if i can leave most of this and a cleanup crew will take care of it for me?? lol its quite a mess and im thinking about taking all of them out carefully takeing the leaves off and putting them back in lol not sure tho



winter update, woke up this morning to 6 inches of snow.... haha awesome lol not really but hey we dont get it often lol


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## Amie

Anacharis leaves do melt off when you add them to a new tank. They will regrow. But mine only regrow on the top portion. Perhaps if they float until they start growing new leaves then they might grow them all over the plant. I never clean up the gravel from dead leaves and stuff like that. I always leave if for the snails. Also, the additional ammonia from the decaying plant matter couldn't hurt with the cycling. 

Enjoy the weather  Imagine that's what I get about 4 months of the year LOL!!

I planted one of my 55's last night. If I could do it again I would have cut a lot of the bottoms off the Wisteria and only put in tiny little Wisteria plants but oh well. I'm also not sure on the lighting amounts. The only bulbs I could find to it the hood were measured in lumens not watts so I'm not sure if they are powerful enough or not!!!


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> Anacharis leaves do melt off when you add them to a new tank. They will regrow. But mine only regrow on the top portion. Perhaps if they float until they start growing new leaves then they might grow them all over the plant. I never clean up the gravel from dead leaves and stuff like that. I always leave if for the snails. Also, the additional ammonia from the decaying plant matter couldn't hurt with the cycling.
> 
> Enjoy the weather  Imagine that's what I get about 4 months of the year LOL!!
> 
> I planted one of my 55's last night. If I could do it again I would have cut a lot of the bottoms off the Wisteria and only put in tiny little Wisteria plants but oh well. I'm also not sure on the lighting amounts. The only bulbs I could find to it the hood were measured in lumens not watts so I'm not sure if they are powerful enough or not!!!


Alright thats what i was hoping was that some snails would take care of it later on! and yes its always nice for a few days down here! haha this is the most weve had in quite a few years, the most since i was born at least haha! the diffrence between having it here and where you live is that down here everybody goes nuts and cant drive lol people wreck and end up in ditches because we have no snow gear to take care of side roads haha, they called in a troop of 7 snow plows from Amarillo to take care of the interstates lol i may have to go make a nice little snow man here in a little bit!


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## Price

little tank update havnt tested ammonia in 3 days so im hoping itll be a jump from were i was sitting at prolly 1.5, but im getting a good bit of algae growth it started on the glass just below the two lights and so i cut the light period down by a couple hours, it is still growing but slower the gravel is getting dark green right under the lights and my log is growing some too now! Which im kind of happyy about it all cuz im gonna leave it for the most part, i am gonna get a glass cleaner next time im out, but im happy cuz i can get some snails and shrimmp earlier on and theyll have plenty to munch on! well just thought id throw that in as an update!


----------



## Amie

Not sure how much the snails are down there but if you are willing to try it you could toss a few into the tank and see if they live. Some snails are very good warning systems for tank problems. Too much ammonia and they die and too much........carbonate maybe.........not 100% sure and they get holes in their shells things like that. They are also more sensitive to these things then fish are so if you get a few snails that are sensitive to those changes and a week later they are fine then that's a very good indication that you can put a few fish in your tank.


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> Not sure how much the snails are down there but if you are willing to try it you could toss a few into the tank and see if they live. Some snails are very good warning systems for tank problems. Too much ammonia and they die and too much........carbonate maybe.........not 100% sure and they get holes in their shells things like that. They are also more sensitive to these things then fish are so if you get a few snails that are sensitive to those changes and a week later they are fine then that's a very good indication that you can put a few fish in your tank.


alright will do, at my preffered store (local petsmart great tanks great set ups and great people!) they have mystery snails for 2 bucks a pop! and the only fish store ive been to had some nerite snails for 2 bucks a pop also, so id prolly just go for teh mysterys cuz they are wayyy closer to me and same price, but ill prolly wait till my ammonia gets low cuz its still on the rise right now it seems well at least its still high i think once it gets back low i think while the nitrites are doing thier magic ill trhow one or two in! thanks!!! also is there a preffered snail for these things? i know mysterys are larger dont get eatin, and dont breed crazy! and i kno that nerites breed like friggen crazy haha but i dunno what everybody likes!

so i thought id do my tests before i posted this and im so confused/shocked haha so after 3 nights ago my ammonia being in that 1.5-2 range, its now reading .25 and my nitrits that have been at basically 0 this whole time are still at 0............ should i be worried that i never saw a big 4.0 ammonia spike?? and should my nitrites be going up by now or will ammonia hit 0 befor that?? i was so shocked by this i used my other two tubes to test them again! and came up with the exact same readings!! 

thanks!!


----------



## jrman83

It is possible to never see nitrites although I don't know if I have heard of it from a fishless cycle. What are your nitrate readings?


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## Amie

See, this is where the fishless cycle with plants can get a little tricky. it's quite possible that you might establish your cycle without seeing an noticeable difference in the nitrites and nitrates. Even more likely if you don't check the parameters everyday because with the plants the spikes usually come and go pretty quickly. just keep waiting and see what the other numbers do. see if they all go to 0 or see if something else rises. this is also why the snails become helpful too. they can help you judge if the tank is safe for the fish if your not sure if the cycle is fully established.


----------



## Price

okay tested it all again tonight, 

Ammonia between 0-.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 

could the cycle really be over with or should i see a nitrite spike soon?

Im still adding flakes a few in the morning and a few at night


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## Amie

Just keep watching for another few days and see what the numbers do. It's possible that it might be almost established. If you are still adding ammonia then you should see nitrites rise and then ammonia drop because the bacteria that creates the nitrites is the bacteria that consumes the ammonia but I'm wondering if the spike in ammonia was due to the extra flakes you were adding for awhile when you had to change tanks. Just keep watch for now and keep posting the results. How are the plants growing?


----------



## jrman83

Price said:


> okay tested it all again tonight,
> 
> Ammonia between 0-.25
> Nitrite 0
> Nitrate 0
> 
> could the cycle really be over with or should i see a nitrite spike soon?
> 
> Im still adding flakes a few in the morning and a few at night


Did you ever have anything for nitrates? Make sure you are doing the test exactly as it says. One of the toughest to perform. Planted tank cycles are slightly different and usually end with the nitrates zeroing out. How long has it been now?


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## Price

alright ill keep watching, and no i have never had nitrates, buttttttttt i didnt test them for a long time cuz it takes forever to do lol so last night was prolly the first time in a week or two but i didnt think they would jump as long as ammonia was staying up high lol and i do the test just like it says 10 drops bottle one invert tube several times, then i shake the crap outta bottle 2 for around 40 seconds, then put them in and then shake the crap outta the tube for a minute

if ammonia stays down ill grab a snail sometime soon and see how he does!


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## Price

heres my list ive been keeping, and there are a couple days that i put on here and not in my list lol but they werent major and as you can see 9 days in i hit that tank leak so started over with new gravel on that one! not sure if this helps but i figure yall have gone through a ton of cycles and could see if something is done or what haha! and honestly i was reading ph wrong im pretty sure haha from what i can guess its at around like 8 maybe 7.8 but its in there somewhere! 

Day one 1/7/11
Ph- 7.8
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0

Day two 1/8/11
Ph- 7.6
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0

Day three 1/9/11
Ph- 7.8
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0

Day four 1/10/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0


Day five 1/11/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.25
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day Six 1/12/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day Seven 1/13/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate – 0

Day eight 1/14/11
Ph- 7.4
Ammonia -.50
Nitrite - .25 (between 0-.25) 
Nitrate - 0


Day 9 tank sprung leak

New tank 1/16/11
Ammonia .25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

1/19/2011
PH – 7.6
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite – between 0 and .25
Nitrate - 0

1/20/2011
PH 7.8
Ammonia .25
Nitrite same
Nitrate 0

1/21/2011
PH 7.8 8.0
Ammonia .50
Nitrite same


1/22/2011
Ammonia .5
Nitrite same
Nitrate 0

1/26/11
Ammonia 1
Nitrite same

1/30/11
Ammonia 1

1/31/
Ammonia 1.5-2

2/6
Ammonia .25
Nitrite 0

2/7
Ammonia 0-.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0


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## jrman83

I think it just shows the problem with flakes. Too inconsistent.


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## Price

jrman83 said:


> I think it just shows the problem with flakes. Too inconsistent.


How so? just wondering! like what you mean by too inconsistent lol 

Thanks!


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## jrman83

Price said:


> How so? just wondering! like what you mean by too inconsistent lol
> 
> Thanks!


The flakes you add are close to that same amount but probably not right on, you have to wait for the flake to decay and decay rates could vary and then come your ammonia. With liquid ammonia you dose with a measuring spoon and its instant and precise. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Price

jrman83 said:


> The flakes you add are close to that same amount but probably not right on, you have to wait for the flake to decay and decay rates could vary and then come your ammonia. With liquid ammonia you dose with a measuring spoon and its instant and precise. That's all I'm saying.


Oh yes definitely i see what your saying, and me of all people the flakes i add are not the same amount each time, but adding them everyday obliviously did work for ammonia as it slowly rose up and then came back down, it just didnt produce nitrites, of course i had some nitrites in the beginning but none now... i wanted to try and get some ammonia but apparently Texas is having the new ice age haha, ill keep testing and adding flakes for now, i may pick up a snail next week too! and if ammonia stays down, since mollies are a hardy fish anyways wouldnt they be okay even if the cycle wasnt Completely done?


Tested just a minute ago so i thought id throw this in as an edit, 

Ammonia i would go ahead and say 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0


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## Price

Okay so everything is still reading 0... so probably this weekend or maybe next week im going to get a mystery snail, maybe two, and if the place has some shrimp then i may grab one or two shrimp, and see how they do for a little while, what do yall think about this? ill continue to add flakes, and i have a MASSIVE ammount of algae haha so they will have plenty of that, any thing i should get extra for them?


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## Amie

Only popping in for a quite minute. Will write more later about the cycle and ***** and pure ammonia  but in the meantime I'm going to message beaslbob and see what he thinks of your numbers. He has studied a lot more planted tanks then I have and he will have a better understanding of the numbers. (PS he would have started adding fish at least a week ago)


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## beaslbob

Compared to my planted tank startups you did get a much greater ammonia spike.

with no flakes added I get at most a .5ppm spike the day after adding the first fish. Then ammonia drops down and nitrItes spike up for a day also. Meanwhile nitrates can rise to 20ppm or so with no ammonia/nitrIte spikes. (I suspect from the peat moss)

Ph also rises to above 8.


I also do not add any food for that first fish for a week. I found that feeding always killed the fish on the 5th day but I did not measure parameters. The fish survived with no food being added.

then when I add the second batch of fish and start feeding 1 flake pre day I do get another .5 ppm ammonia spike the next day that drops down the second day.

Then after all that about 3 weeks later nitrates finally drop to 0.

Just my .02


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## Amie

I think the big spike came from after he switched tanks. Price, correct me if I'm wrong but when you switched to the new tank you put in a lot of flakes initially, right? Then you got the biggest ammonia spike after that. I think the spike got so big because you had so many extra flakes decaying at that time then you had for the rest of the cycling process.

Now, anyone here correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember when I was reading up on the cycling here is the basic gist of it: you add an ammonia source (in your case the flakes). The ammonia triggers/causes the production of the bacteria that consumes it and in turn produces nitrites and then that triggers the bacteria that consumes the nitrites that produces the nitrates and they just stay there. So, from that I deduce a few things: without the addition of other variables the order would have to go ammonia nitrites and then nitrates. The ammonia would have to be present in order for the nitrites to form and then the same for the nitrates. Now, the most important thing to the cycling process is keeping the bacteria alive that you are growing. That is why we keep adding the ammonia source. It provides a constant supply of food for the bacteria and the idea with this is that as soon as ammonia is created it is consumed by the bacteria and is never there long enough to become a problem for the fish. Taking that into consideration, the only logical conclusion for me on why ammonia would drop when you are still adding a source daily is that you have produced your colony of ammonia consuming bacteria and they are happily 'eating' the ammonia as it is produced. And, since you are adding the same amount of ammonia per day there is exactly enough bacteria to consume exactly how much you are producing (if there were more bacteria then needed they would starve and die and if there was not enough then you would still be getting ammonia readings). Now, have about the rest of the cycle. Since the ammonia is disappearing then I would consider it safe to say that you have established the nitrites in the tank. You saw that with the small nitrites spike. But, why don't you have any nitrates? Well, I think you might have actually produced them but missed it because you did not do the test that day or because it was just so small and quick. The plants will consume the nitrates. And between the plants you added and the algae that is growing I think you probably have a lot of plants in there that will happily gobble up any nitrates produced ASAP. And, if they are still hungry then they may also be gobbling up any ammonia and nitrites that they can get as well. If that's the case, then you have pretty much created an almost perfectly balanced system: the exact ammonia input is exactly what the bacteria colonies need and what the plants need to be sustained. I think you could test this if you wanted to (I would not bother but it might be interesting if you do). If I'm right then if you added double or triple the amount of flakes one day then you normally do for that day you should see an ammonia spike a few days last followed by a nitrite spike and a nitrate spike. This would sort of be a 'mini cycle'. An established tank goes through mini cycles all the time. The can be triggered by big water changes/aggressive gravel cleaning, filter replacement, a dead fish in the tank, the addition of new fish etc. The idea behind the mini cycle is that your tank is established for exactly what is going on with it but when you manipulate one of the variables then the wheel has to be partially reinvented. When removing an old filter and putting in a new one you have removed some of the bacteria that eat the ammonia and nitrites so, if you tank is still producing the same amount of ammonia as it was before you removed the filter but now there is less bacteria there to eat it you will get an ammonia spike that will go away when some new bacteria are produced to consume the excess ammonia. Same principle with adding extra flakes: if you add extra ammonia then there is more ammonia present then the bacterial colony are prepared to handle and they must produce more bacteria to handle the excess and get rid of it. So, I think you have pretty much established your cycle at this point and I would do 2 things right about now (or soon) 1. add a snail-for the reasons mentioned earlier and 2. keep watching it for another 3 or 4 days just to ensure that things are bottoming out. You can never be too careful. 

Now, Jr is totally right about the ammonia measurement being exactly precise with pure ammonia and there are bound to be small variations with the flake method but I really don't think it will be enough to change your number from a 0.25 to a 0.50. It might make the color a little more in between but I don't think it will make much difference. But, my biggest problem with the ammonia method is the 'pure' part. I remember reading a thread on this site some time ago about the ammonia method. Someone was trying to establish how to choose a pure ammonia source and someone told them that if would not foam up when shook and someone else said it would but only a little bit. That's a little too subjective for me. If I have to leave it to my own untrained eye to choose between the pure and unpure source of ammonia simply by the amount of foam produced then that is too risky for me. Now, if someone said 'go get Arm and Hammer's Pure Ammonia Floor Cleaner in the blue bottle with the pink cap. It is 100% pure ammonia' For example only, that is a totally fictitious name) and some other people confirmed that for me then I would use the product. But, I would never use it by going and picking it out myself by the amount of foam. Now, I know Jr swears by the method and has used it with great results. So if you want to use that one then I would suggest getting a name of a particular product that he has used from him. But, honestly at this point I think you are close enough to finished to not bother with changing the ammonia method. PS-I would put enough faith in Jr that if he has a particular name and product that he uses that I would trust him that it is pure and would not bother to have the brand verified.


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## Price

Tons of information there thank you! And as for the spike, i did add a good ammount of flakes after the tank switch but the spike did not come until almost two weeks later, but i do admit me adding flakes everyday i deffinatly do not keep it the same ammount, its hard the flakes are half of them crunched up others are huge so i started just grabbin a pinch and puttin them in, ill keep on checking, and adding flakes, today the water is VERy cloudy but its slowly been getting that way, and it has a green tint so im assuming algaie bloom, i shut the light off today and shortened the time frame again about an hour, ill leave it off today and maybe tm too, see if it clears up, but i will be getting a snail soon! like this weekend or monday, if it dies then well i got work to do if not then after a week ill probably get just start with one molly and see how it does and then ill start adding my other mollys and probably one more snail and some shrimp over the course of prolly 3 weeks and see how they do for a little while then ill know for sure my cycle is good if they all live! 

How does this plan sound?
1 Mystery snail for a week
then if survived 1 molly for a week and if it makes it ill add my other two mollys and probably one more snail and if i can find some ghost shrimp then i will get them too, so probably over 4 weeks after i look at it.... lol 

what do yall think? 

Also food!! haha as for the Snails and Shrimp i know they both love algae but im sure eventually that will be gone or it will get old, so what should i get for them? 

Now for Mollys, As well as my future fish, What flake food do i get? I know there are tons of choices at the store, but im sure they are different what does everyone prefer?? i want to have to feed as FEW foods as possible lol so if there is a food that is perfect for mollies but not others, id rather get the food thats good for mollies and good for the others haha if you get what i mean. 

Thanks!!


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## jrman83

I think you need to address the bloom...whether it be ammonia or algae. If you're going to add something you may need to wait 3-4 of not adding flakes or just do a big gravel vacuum.


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## Amie

I wouldn't stop adding the flakes. If you do that for 3 or 4 days before adding the snail then you might cause a mini cycle. See how it goes with cutting the lights. Wal Mart has a algae cleaner brush for aquariums. I use it a lot in one of mine. The lighting in that tank is 2700k and they are right-it does promote the growth of algae but, the plants are also growing fine in it. In fact, the Wisteria looks better in that tank then in the other 2. Instead of just growing narrow and straight up it has mostly grown out so I have tall and very wide Wisteria plants in there. One plant reaches over half the length of the 10gal tank!! 

The Mystery Snail looks like it might be a good choice. It will eat decaying plant matter and algae and gets about 3 inches so hopefully he won't get picked on too much by the fish. I don't feed my snails anything. they live on the decaying plant matter. I would leave them alone and let them clean the tank and if you find that they have gotten rid of everything in the tank for them to eat you can start giving them an occasional algae disc. 

That sounds like a good way to add them.

As for food: there is on one perfect flake food. Even the best flake foods should be supplemented with other foods to ensure a healthy diet for your fish. I use flakes, freeze dried brine shrimp, freeze dried bloodworms, and freeze dried tubifex worms. Any occasionally dip the flakes into garlic juice before feeding them to the fish. I don't use a schedule or anything just which ever bottle I happen to grab I feed them. I am looking into some Fairy Shrimp on ebay but need to get some opinions here before ordering them. They would be a live food to feed to the fish that you actually hatch from the eggs and grow them. I would prefer to feed them some live food instead of just all freeze dried and flakes but it's not easy to get that stuff around here. You don't have to feed them all the different food at the same time or even the same day. Just rotate it a bit. Every 2 or 3 days or so exchange the flakes for brine shrimp or bloodworms or whatever. One of the problems people sometimes come across with just using flakes is white poop. White poop is not a good thing for fish. It's usually a sign of an intestinal parasite, but, if the fish are only eating flakes then sometimes that can lead to white poop, so that's another pretty good reason to mix it up a little.


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## Price

Amie said:


> I wouldn't stop adding the flakes. If you do that for 3 or 4 days before adding the snail then you might cause a mini cycle. See how it goes with cutting the lights. Wal Mart has a algae cleaner brush for aquariums. I use it a lot in one of mine. The lighting in that tank is 2700k and they are right-it does promote the growth of algae but, the plants are also growing fine in it. In fact, the Wisteria looks better in that tank then in the other 2. Instead of just growing narrow and straight up it has mostly grown out so I have tall and very wide Wisteria plants in there. One plant reaches over half the length of the 10gal tank!!
> 
> The Mystery Snail looks like it might be a good choice. It will eat decaying plant matter and algae and gets about 3 inches so hopefully he won't get picked on too much by the fish. I don't feed my snails anything. they live on the decaying plant matter. I would leave them alone and let them clean the tank and if you find that they have gotten rid of everything in the tank for them to eat you can start giving them an occasional algae disc.
> 
> That sounds like a good way to add them.
> 
> As for food: there is on one perfect flake food. Even the best flake foods should be supplemented with other foods to ensure a healthy diet for your fish. I use flakes, freeze dried brine shrimp, freeze dried bloodworms, and freeze dried tubifex worms. Any occasionally dip the flakes into garlic juice before feeding them to the fish. I don't use a schedule or anything just which ever bottle I happen to grab I feed them. I am looking into some Fairy Shrimp on ebay but need to get some opinions here before ordering them. They would be a live food to feed to the fish that you actually hatch from the eggs and grow them. I would prefer to feed them some live food instead of just all freeze dried and flakes but it's not easy to get that stuff around here. You don't have to feed them all the different food at the same time or even the same day. Just rotate it a bit. Every 2 or 3 days or so exchange the flakes for brine shrimp or bloodworms or whatever. One of the problems people sometimes come across with just using flakes is white poop. White poop is not a good thing for fish. It's usually a sign of an intestinal parasite, but, if the fish are only eating flakes then sometimes that can lead to white poop, so that's another pretty good reason to mix it up a little.



Alright well all in all that sounds like it wont be to bad when i look at the different fish some need different stuff anyways so im sure in the end ill have plenty of nice foods! and that's a little while away for now still too, since the snail is first! i tested tonight and the results are the same basically ammonia shows a slight hint of green i would call it .25 at most and it depends how you read it lol holding it strait up or looking at it against the paper, and nitrite 0, so i have 3 exams to study for and a speech to write tomorrow, but Monday on my way home i plan to pick up a snail! How should i go about introducing him to the tank? obviously not just dropping him in lol so whats the usual floating on the bag time and what kind of method should i use for the snail and for all future fish? 

Thanks!


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## Amie

My first snails were hitch hikers on my Wisteria plants so they just got dumped into the tank on the plants because they were too small to see and then when I wanted to move some to another tank of mine I simply dropped them into the new tank as well. After all, with a big colony of snails in the tank it was more an experiment to see if he would actually live getting introduced that way and he did. But, for your purposes I would not recommend you do that. If you just drop him into the tank and he dies then your not going to know for sure if it was because you dropped him in or if it has something to do with your water.

Put the plastic bag with the snail and some water from his first tank in your tank and let it float for about a half hour. That is all I have ever done with my fish and I have never had a problem with them dying from that, but, most people on here recommend drip assimilation as well. Basically, after you float the bag in the tank for half an hour take the bag out and pour all the water and inhabitants into a bucket and set up a gravity drip so that a little of your tank water is flowing into the bucket all the time and when the bucket gets enough water in it (basically the original tank water should only be about 25% of the water in the bucket when the process is done) then you can gingerly return all the contents of the bucket to the tank including the snail or fish or whatever. Im not sure how well that would work with a snail though who has the ability to climb out of the bucket!! But, to set up the drip you take a long piece of air tubing and tie some loose knots in it. Tape it to the tank and to the bucket so it cant slip off and start a siphon on the tubing. Most people simply suck on the end that goes into the bucket and take it out of their mouths before the water gets there (oh yeah, you might what to use clear tubing for this lol-easier to see the water coming). Then you tighter the knots as needed so that there is about a drop a second or so. Now, that is how I have read that it is done but, like I said, I have never actually done it. The store that I go to here has a 1 week guarantee on fish so I have never done it because I figured if I ever have a problem with them getting used to the water I will rely on the guarantee. I have had 2 or 3 fish in the last year die within a few days of being put into my tank but I dont think it was because of that. 2 of them were harassed by current tank inhabitants and the other was a pregnant guppy and I think she might have died from the aggressive capture and being pregnant. The idea with floating the bag is that it gets the creatures in the bag used to the temperature of your tank but not the other parameters (PH, hardness, etc) but the drip assimilation gets the creatures used to the other things and they are already then used to the temp from the floating so it does not shock them when it comes into the bucket.


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## Price

Amie said:


> My first snails were hitch hikers on my Wisteria plants so they just got dumped into the tank on the plants because they were too small to see and then when I wanted to move some to another tank of mine I simply dropped them into the new tank as well. After all, with a big colony of snails in the tank it was more an experiment to see if he would actually live getting introduced that way and he did. But, for your purposes I would not recommend you do that. If you just drop him into the tank and he dies then your not going to know for sure if it was because you dropped him in or if it has something to do with your water.
> 
> Put the plastic bag with the snail and some water from his first tank in your tank and let it float for about a half hour. That is all I have ever done with my fish and I have never had a problem with them dying from that, but, most people on here recommend drip assimilation as well. Basically, after you float the bag in the tank for half an hour take the bag out and pour all the water and inhabitants into a bucket and set up a gravity drip so that a little of your tank water is flowing into the bucket all the time and when the bucket gets enough water in it (basically the original tank water should only be about 25% of the water in the bucket when the process is done) then you can gingerly return all the contents of the bucket to the tank including the snail or fish or whatever. Im not sure how well that would work with a snail though who has the ability to climb out of the bucket!! But, to set up the drip you take a long piece of air tubing and tie some loose knots in it. Tape it to the tank and to the bucket so it cant slip off and start a siphon on the tubing. Most people simply suck on the end that goes into the bucket and take it out of their mouths before the water gets there (oh yeah, you might what to use clear tubing for this lol-easier to see the water coming). Then you tighter the knots as needed so that there is about a drop a second or so. Now, that is how I have read that it is done but, like I said, I have never actually done it. The store that I go to here has a 1 week guarantee on fish so I have never done it because I figured if I ever have a problem with them getting used to the water I will rely on the guarantee. I have had 2 or 3 fish in the last year die within a few days of being put into my tank but I dont think it was because of that. 2 of them were harassed by current tank inhabitants and the other was a pregnant guppy and I think she might have died from the aggressive capture and being pregnant. The idea with floating the bag is that it gets the creatures in the bag used to the temperature of your tank but not the other parameters (PH, hardness, etc) but the drip assimilation gets the creatures used to the other things and they are already then used to the temp from the floating so it does not shock them when it comes into the bucket.


Alright gotcha! ive read somewere that ppl will slowly scoop water out of their tank and put it in the bag every 15 min or so basically a drip deal but without the set up and leaving the bag floating haha but at most i might do that a little bit but not much depends on the day i suppose! And as well the store i will use ( local petsmart) i know alot of ppl hate on petsmart and petco but my local petsmart not only has amazing workers! the aquairum section manager called Petco to see if they had a cheaper tank set up for me when i didnt need the whole package that petsmart had! Their tank set up is also extremely nice and clean! And they have a 14 day guarantee! AS for the snail, whould i worry about him crawling out of my tank? in the bag there is plenty of room for jumpers, snails, ect. to get out i have some mesh i may rig up to go over it but will i have to worry about the snail trying it?? iw ould think once he touched air he would be ready to dive back down lol but idk! 

ALso do i need to do a PWC before adding the snail? or should i do one before fish? or is one required at all? 

Thanks! also will my PH be alirhgt for everyone? to me it seems like its either 7.8 or 8 will everyone be okay in that?


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## jrman83

I would want to do a gravel vacuum in at least half youir tank since you have been putting flakes in there. Whether your cycle is over or still going, you don't need all that in the bottom...even if a snail is your first.

I wouldn't worry about ph too much. Most creatures will acclimate to your ph and trying to adjust it is too dangerous. Drip acclimation is the best method. When you have a fish die a day or two after you buy it, you'll wonder if acclimating it better would have maybe prevented it.


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## Amie

We differ again-I would not bother with vacuuming the gravel. Then you would be removing some of the flakes that are in various stages of decaying, which is what you want them to do. 

Agree about the Ph though-most all the fish that you put in there will simply adjust themselves to your PH. Some people on here would adjust using ph up and down to ensure their ph jives with what written literature says that fish needs but usually end up using products all the time to keep adjust it. Just leave it as is and the fish will be fine.

Never thought of the idea that they could go ahead and climb out of the tank anyway LOL. I have never seen any of mine do it so I don't think I would worry about it. They do sometimes hang out on the glass above the water line but not usually.


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## jrman83

Amie said:


> ....Then you would be removing some of the flakes that are in various stages of decaying, which is what you want them to do.


If anything is going to go into the tank (fish/snails etc), why would you want anything in it to be in some stage of decay? Isn't this possibly just asking for potential problems?


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## Price

Okay so tested tonight after studying to make sure tm i could still grab one on the way home.... ammonia now reads like .50 soooooo what do i do haha i left the light off today and will leave it off prolly tomorrow and the next too hoping he cloud clears up.. but as for tomorrow, i have a few thoughts/questions, do i go ahead and get a snail to try? or could i skip the snail for the moment and get a hardy fish like a molly? since it seems like the cycle is still messing around with me maybe get one of my mollies? ill be reading my email before school and at school before i get out to check and see what yall think, i know beaslebobs method is leaving a fish in for 5 days no food, but my cycle is obviously already started i mean its been over a month, so IF your suggestion is a molly do i feed it or no? lol and of course the other suggestion is do nothing just keep adding flakes lol im kinda getting ancy to just have SOMETHING in there thats alive haha 

Thanks guys!


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## Amie

I would suggest the snail but you can try the Molly if you want. If you get the Molly skip the feedings for a few days. I shouldn't mess you your bacteria too bad because the Molly will be providing the ammonia for the tank anyway.


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## Amie

jrman83 said:


> If anything is going to go into the tank (fish/snails etc), why would you want anything in it to be in some stage of decay? Isn't this possibly just asking for potential problems?


I don't think so. I'd be worried the other way. If I remove the flakes that are in various stages of decay then I am causing an interruption in the flow of food for the growth (and feeding) of the bacteria. So, I would leave them in there so that there are still flakes to decay and feed the bacteria-the snail by itself is going to cause enough interruption by eating some of the flakes so why try to cause more. 

Also Price, if you get the Molly then don't feed for at least a few days but if you get the snail I would still put a small amount of flakes in until you start putting some fish in. Fish produce more waste then snails do so adding a small amount of flakes combined with the waste produced by the snail should keep you pretty much on track. Go with less then half of what you put in now. PS to be on the safe side or sure make sure you go to the store with the 14 day guarantee.


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## jrman83

I look at it like this...fishless cycles can be done by decaying food or adding ammonia. Both put ammonia in your tank. Adding ammonia is more direct, but the decaying food is nothing more than a source of ammonia. Removing the food will not cause an instant death of the bacteria, that would probably take weeks or months maybe. So in my mind, ammonia and decaying food are the same thing and if it is not removed before adding anything that is affected by ammonia, then it is just risking the health of whatever you add. It would be one thing if the tank was cycled, but I don't think that is the case. However, even in that case you would want to remove all the decaying food at the end.


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## beaslbob

FWIW I would use a platty not molly. I have had a fungus problem with mollys unless there was salt in the water (all the way up to full marine setups).

just my .02


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## Price

Hmm alright so snail, molly, platy haha so many choices, I may go ahead and get the snail not sure how much it takes for them to die but hopefully I don't have that much! Any suggestion on votes? Like snail or fish haha 

Thanks!!


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## Amie

jrman83 said:


> I look at it like this...fishless cycles can be done by decaying food or adding ammonia. Both put ammonia in your tank. Adding ammonia is more direct, but the decaying food is nothing more than a source of ammonia. Removing the food will not cause an instant death of the bacteria, that would probably take weeks or months maybe. So in my mind, ammonia and decaying food are the same thing and if it is not removed before adding anything that is affected by ammonia, then it is just risking the health of whatever you add. It would be one thing if the tank was cycled, but I don't think that is the case. However, even in that case you would want to remove all the decaying food at the end.


Right-both put ammonia in your tank and the pure ammonia method is more direct and the food becomes the ammonia as it breaks down. If it was pure ammonia that was being added to the tank then I would totally say discontinue using the ammonia before adding the snail/fish/whatever because the snail or fish will provide the ammonia from then on but I don't think I would say that you need to do a partial water change to remove the pure ammonia either. After all, if you have been adding the same amount of ammonia all the time then you should have enough bacteria in the tank to handle that same amount so it should be turned into nitrites right away and not be there long enough to become a problem for the fish. I'm thinking the same thing here that there should be enough bacteria in the tank to consume the ammonia that is forming as the food decays because the bacteria are now there and have already been removing the same amount of bacteria. As to how long those bacteria can go without food I have no idea. Maybe they can go weeks without food but to me they are too important to the tank to find out the hard way that I am wrong. I would rather make sure they have a daily supply of ammonia just to be on the safe side. Safe to the point of neurotic but neurotic works LOL!!!


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## jrman83

Sounds like you think the cycle is over for this tank...I think the jury is still out on that. It could be, but no way to test and be sure. Whether it is shrimp, flakes, or a dead fish in the tank they are doing the same thing - decaying and giving off ammonia. I don't differenciate between the 3, but most people would not recommmend adding fish to a tank that has decaying shrimp or a dead fish in it. In fact, in a thriving healthy tank you'd want those out of the tank. The decaying flakes are no different. It all comes back to the flake method not being a good enough constant to be sure (I know some people have no choice on method) of your bio-filter. It works for people on a fishless cycle, but it does leave some things to be desired. Even with a shrimp in the tank the test results would not be all over the place.


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## Amie

If he got a small nitrite spike then it is a good indication that the cycle should be pretty much established. Otherwise without water changes then why would the nitrites go away? They should not go away until the Nitrate producing bacteria are produced to remove them. Even taking into account the broken tank I'm assuming most of the water went into the new tank and the filter and decorations all that too. Even if not fully then it certainly should be far enough along to be able to support a little life at this point, especially considering that there are live plants in the tank too. I know a snail would be more prone to any harmful effects of the tank and therefore more likely to die from ammonia and such, but, that is also what makes them a good first choice to go into the tank: my philosophy with that is if you put the snail(s) in and they live then you can put the fish in with confidence that they will be fine.


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## Price

well let the battle end ahah picked up one blue mystery snail on the way home! he is currently floating int he tank in the bag, i did not gravel vaccum for well mainly one reason i dont have a gravel vacuum lol soo haha anyways he/she is in the tank floatin for now! 

Thanks


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## jrman83

Get A Gravel Vacuum!!!!


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## Price

Haha i know i need to get one, just one of those i havnt picked up yet lol, well anyways for now, mr. snail(until i can think of a proper name) finaly woke up after a couple hours and started moving around, so hes doin good, i have a couple of things for thought as yall read this tommorow

1. The cloudy water, its still here not BAD but it is cloudy okay well kinda bad if i look long ways i cant see th other side of the tank.... its greenish tint ive left the light off for 3 days now but its still kinda like that, thoughts? opinions?

2. plants... my plants are doing good, but nothing like what everyone else sees, they are growing but not at amazing rates, im about to chunk the anacharis its just seeming like an epic fail, the wysteria is doing great but well its not really growing all that much... i have some things i want to trim to plant other places like the vesuviuius has grown some runners with roots so im going to plant them, im going to take a trimming of my ludwigia to plant on the other side of the tank, dwarf sag is goin nuts, my sword grew a new one on the end of one of its well stalks i guess it would be called and its growing and got huge roots now, might be time to plant it as well, my question at any point in time am i going to need to do a major water change? or is that not really required? if it is then i will wait and do my plants at that time, if its not then ill just do them whenever i get a chance lol

Well lemme know what yall think! and as always thank you all so much!


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## jrman83

I've already given my opinion regarding your _needed_ water change. You need to blackout your tank for the algae bloom, if that is what you are experiencing. Turning the light off will not work if it still gets ambient light elsewhere. It needs to get NO light.

Your plant growth for some plants will remain slow with the light you have. The higher the light, the faster they grow. Some, like your sword, won't seem to matter. Your plants can remain healthy under your light, however. The amount of light is like a gas pedal for your plants.


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## Price

Well it would b near impossible for it to get NO light 24 hours a day but ot sure doesn't get much, as far as water change what would u suggest like how much to change out? And would it help the algae bloom? 

2nd how do I tell if it is a algae bloom? Like I assume it is but is there any other possiblility? 

Thanks


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## jrman83

You have to cover it with a blanket or something similar. As I stated above, I would do a gravel vacuum to get out all of that decaying food during the water change and would do at least 25%. Just vacuum 1/2 the tank at a time. A water change will help an algae bloom if that is what it is and yes it could be something else. It could be a bloom brought on by ammonia in your tank, bacterial kind. If it is green in color though, it's an algae bloom. Either way, a water change will help it.


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> Haha i know i need to get one, just one of those i havnt picked up yet lol, well anyways for now, mr. snail(until i can think of a proper name) finaly woke up after a couple hours and started moving around, so hes doin good, i have a couple of things for thought as yall read this tommorow
> 
> *1. The cloudy water, its still here not BAD but it is cloudy okay well kinda bad if i look long ways i cant see th other side of the tank.... its greenish tint ive left the light off for 3 days now but its still kinda like that, thoughts? opinions*?
> 
> 2. plants... my plants are doing good, but nothing like what everyone else sees, they are growing but not at amazing rates, im about to chunk the anacharis its just seeming like an epic fail, the wysteria is doing great but well its not really growing all that much... i have some things i want to trim to plant other places like the vesuviuius has grown some runners with roots so im going to plant them, im going to take a trimming of my ludwigia to plant on the other side of the tank, dwarf sag is goin nuts, my sword grew a new one on the end of one of its well stalks i guess it would be called and its growing and got huge roots now, might be time to plant it as well, my question at any point in time am i going to need to do a major water change? or is that not really required? if it is then i will wait and do my plants at that time, if its not then ill just do them whenever i get a chance lol
> 
> Well lemme know what yall think! and as always thank you all so much!


It can take over a week sometimes.

But if it looks better then you are making progress.

What can happen is the it stays cloudy for some time then all the sudden like in a day it is totally clear. In one extreme case IME it took 2 weeks but that was a marine tank.

Whether or not it is algae (and it probably is) it will clear up with lights out anyway. At least IME


Worth at most .02


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## Price

well i was scared when i got home to find my snail floating! i picked him up to make sure he was in his shell and he was, so a quick google search i found that this is not unnatural so i was relieved! although he just got thrown into the glass a couple times by the filter.. hope hes alright haha, i kno i wish hed grab on to the glass and crawl around instead of this floating stuff lol. but as for the water, it seems to be getting better, i can now see to the other side but just barely, this weekend i may do a water change to mess with plants and clear it up a little bit, but only if i get time lol, what are suggestions so it doesn't happen again? cut the light time is obvious, but anything else?


----------



## aalina387

You should try LED lights The LED lights require a very low voltage and therefore consume much less electricity .Led lights produce less heat and also energy efficient.They are long lasting and quite inexpensive.


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> well i was scared when i got home to find my snail floating! i picked him up to make sure he was in his shell and he was, so a quick google search i found that this is not unnatural so i was relieved! although he just got thrown into the glass a couple times by the filter.. hope hes alright haha, i kno i wish hed grab on to the glass and crawl around instead of this floating stuff lol. but as for the water, it seems to be getting better, i can now see to the other side but just barely, this weekend i may do a water change to mess with plants and clear it up a little bit, but only if i get time lol, what are suggestions so it doesn't happen again? cut the light time is obvious, but anything else?


Snails are interesting. they do have an air pocket to help maintain bouncy. But the also use the for fairly rapid vertical movements. The will hang on the the wall, rock, substrate, or whatever and build up air. The release that air and "pop" up to the surface. And they can decrease the air while on the surface to sink rapidily.

additionally they can "crawl" up side down on the surface using the surface tension. In the process consuming surface algae, scum, and the like.


my .02


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## Price

Might have just found the problem... i was curious about my foam filter.. so i just pulled the pads up to see what everything looked like, well the bottom one which is the foam, is COMPLETLY green, like slimed out with it and soacked with it, should i take some tank water out and clean the foam and carbon? i mean i would think if algae dies and goes in there it has to get caught in the pad but once the pads full it would have no where to go but back into the tank....

what do yall suggest????


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## Price

picked up 3 ghost shrimp today, new petsmart opened and i went to check it out after school, great set ups, tons of fish, and first store ive seen with these little suckers!! lol mr. snail is hiding today havnt been able to find him yet, 

And still curious what yall think bout the filter!

just an update


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## beaslbob

As I understand it you are having cloudy or green water and just found out a foam filter was clogged with green stuff.

If that is correct I think the filter was filtering out the algae. Obviously algae will die off and not stay green in darkness. Like inside a filter box.

So I guess you should clean the filter every now and then. And it did remove some algae.

But then I don't use mechanical filter foam or other wise. So what do I know?

my .02


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## Price

haha well i guess the reason i was asking if i should clean it is all ive heard is to not clean any part of the filter while in the cycle, and i am pretty sure my cycle is close to over if not over already, i tested last night and ammonia was back down to 0, but i just wanted to check and see if it was alright if i cleaned it out


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## Amie

Sorry-this site never gives my updates on this thread anymore!!! Yeah, I would clean the filters in some tank water and then discard the water that you used for that. It might remove some of the bacteria but not much. Most people have said on here that you don't even really lose many bacteria by vacuuming the gravel so if that's the case then you should not use much by cleaning them with tank water. I don't think I would squeeze the sponge though-just swish it around and see if that helps clear up your tank. Might take another few days. 

I remember being totally amazed the first time I looked in my tank and saw one o the snails sliding upside down across the top of the water LOL!!!!

So, how are the snail and shrimp doing now??

Me, I would still not bother with a water change and gravel cleaning. re you still adding some flakes or is all the ammonia now coming from the snail and shrimp?

If you set up a CO2 system you would probably see some faster growth in the plants. I had one in my two small tanks for month but it has run out recently and I don't think I am going to bother to replace it. The Wisteria seems to be growing a little too fast with it now. 

If your Sword has too many babies I can take them off your hands  My new ones came and so far I think most of them are going to die but there are a few that look like they are trying to produce new roots so I've got my fingers crossed!!!


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> Sorry-this site never gives my updates on this thread anymore!!! Yeah, I would clean the filters in some tank water and then discard the water that you used for that. It might remove some of the bacteria but not much. Most people have said on here that you don't even really lose many bacteria by vacuuming the gravel so if that's the case then you should not use much by cleaning them with tank water. I don't think I would squeeze the sponge though-just swish it around and see if that helps clear up your tank. Might take another few days.
> 
> I remember being totally amazed the first time I looked in my tank and saw one o the snails sliding upside down across the top of the water LOL!!!!
> 
> So, how are the snail and shrimp doing now??
> 
> Me, I would still not bother with a water change and gravel cleaning. re you still adding some flakes or is all the ammonia now coming from the snail and shrimp?
> 
> If you set up a CO2 system you would probably see some faster growth in the plants. I had one in my two small tanks for month but it has run out recently and I don't think I am going to bother to replace it. The Wisteria seems to be growing a little too fast with it now.
> 
> If your Sword has too many babies I can take them off your hands  My new ones came and so far I think most of them are going to die but there are a few that look like they are trying to produce new roots so I've got my fingers crossed!!!


alright so ill do that here in just al ittle while clean it up a little bit, should i do the carbon also? 

and everybody seems to be doing good! shrimp are amazing little creatures!! same with the snail! ive been watching the shrimp a ton ever since i came home haha im glad i finnaly found a store with them! 

and i still am adding flakes about 2 per day now down from 5 or 6, but now that i got the shrimp should i still add them? i was thinking i would for the shrimp i figure even old goldfish flakes would be a nice snack haha! but i dunno!

And ill letcha know  right now its just the one i need to go ahead and cut it off and plant it just havnt had time! haha! 

Thanks!!


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## Price

alright so i lost a shrimp overnight, woke up and he was layin in the gravel white rather than clear, the others are still swimming around merrily well one at least the other is hiding lol im hoping that he was just sick already or just didnt take the change well, so if the others make it for a week or so then i should be good lol

Hopefully sunday between studying for exams again, i get a chance to do some tank work, this is what i want to do let me know if you think this is a bad idea.

1. most likely a 25-50% water change, MOSTLY so i can clean up some of my plants and make it easier to plant some, not doing a gravel vac just a water change, i want to clean up some of the plants take some of the moss out and replant some things, also im hoping the water change helps with the algae bloom, um but i guess just wanting to know if my snail and shrimp would see any kind of ill effects from a water change like that?

and then if snail and 2 shrimp are good next week i will pick up a molly one day


And i also have a fish that has really caught my eye looking at the stores, and i DEFFINATYL want to add one to my finished tank, and that is a powder blue dwarf guarmi i think these things are the neatest looking fish i dunno why but i do, and from what ive read they also do fine by themselves so would one of these in the tank at some point be okay by itself?


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## jrman83

Shrimp need pretty good water.


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## Amie

You could probably stop adding the flakes now if you want but just adding one or two a day won't harm anything either. Are you still checking the water parameters? You can go ahead and clean the carbon the same way as well. For the water change, I would try not to go anymore then 25% fish usually don't like a 50% water change very much (even under perfect conditions where the water going in is perfect and the temp is perfect a lot of them still seem to find it stressful for a little while) and shrimp and snails are more sensitive them fish so I would stick with 25% simply so it is not too invasive for them. Make sure to clean the sponge and filters if your going to do them too before the water change. The replanting will make the water a little cloudy so have the filters nice and clean so they can clear it back up faster. 

I would watch the shrimp and snail and the water and if everything is going the same as this by next Saturday, so another whole week, then I'd say go for the Molly.


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## jrman83

I do 50% weekly. Fish don't stress as much as people believe from large water changes, but I didn't think there was fish in this tank. Water change will help but the source of your issues will remain...the decaying food in your gravel.


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## Amie

You know some people speculate that beneficial bacteria start to die off within 24 hours without a food source. If that is correct then removing the flakes that are there and are currently providing the ammonia (or at least some of it) will mean that at least some of the bacteria that Price has worked so hard to build will die. As before, that will cause a mini cycle and slow the finish of the process down. 

Also, no there are no fish in the tank. As I said before, fish stress over big water changes and I figured since fish stress then 25% would do better because snails and shrimp are more sensitive so if fish don't like a 50% water change then shrimp and snails will probably like it less.

I think I'm going to start the bacteria question as a thread-let's see if we can get a definite answer on how long they live. For my own interest as well.


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> You know some people speculate that beneficial bacteria start to die off within 24 hours without a food source. If that is correct then removing the flakes that are there and are currently providing the ammonia (or at least some of it) will mean that at least some of the bacteria that Price has worked so hard to build will die. As before, that will cause a mini cycle and slow the finish of the process down.
> 
> Also, no there are no fish in the tank. As I said before, fish stress over big water changes and I figured since fish stress then 25% would do better because snails and shrimp are more sensitive so if fish don't like a 50% water change then shrimp and snails will probably like it less.
> 
> I think I'm going to start the bacteria question as a thread-let's see if we can get a definite answer on how long they live. For my own interest as well.


Alright so lost another shrimp,, its weird tho, i would think that if it was the water theyd all of died first night,,,, so im thinkin maybe they just were weak or somethin i dunno, the biggest one is still alive and kickin! so we will see how he does, snail is good! havnt test water in 2 days, but will be testing today no doubt! dunno if ill get to the water change today, if i do that may be all i do is just change watter cuz i really want my tank back to crystal clear lol i do not like this green cloud!!! lol 

im guessing its cuz its in my room and my room lights are on alot, which are CFL just regualr soft white but they are only like 10 or 15 watts but they are on alot, i mean i do gotta see haha, but most of the tank stays in shade, but anyways, thats my update for now!


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## jrman83

Guess its good you dont have fish in there yet.


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## Amie

Post the water results when you get them and then we can see about if you should continue with the flakes or leave the rest to the shrimp and the snail.


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## Price

okay so changed prolly about 7 or 8 gallons out cleaned out some plants dumped ALL the anacharis lol just gave up on it, um replanted some stuff nothing major just small so i just pushed theminto the gravel and sand, took some dead stuff out, and replaced with treated water, took results before and after, and 
before looked like
Ammonia 0 maybe a little more but not .25 
Nitrite 0
nitrate looked 0

After 
Ammonia looks between 0 and .25
nitrite 0
nitrate now looks above 0 but not quite 5 first time ive ever seen any hint of orange haha

shrimp is back out swimming around snail is floating at the top!

Let me know what yall think!

Thanks!


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## M1ster Stanl3y

The snail is Floating? Hmmm...prob not good. But then again I've never kept snails. But I don't imagine its good


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## Price

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> The snail is Floating? Hmmm...prob not good. But then again I've never kept snails. But I don't imagine its good


Thats what i thought at first when he did it the day after i got him! lol BUT a quick google brings up that mystery snails love to float they fill there lungs with air and just float around resting haha kinda cool


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## Amie

You ditched the Anacharis!?!?! OMG Why!!!! LOL. Yeah-I don't like them much either. 

Not sure what to make of the snail. You might be right that they were not in great shape to begin with. But, this is why starting with things that are so sensitive is a good idea. Let's see how the others do. Check your water again later today or tomorrow to see if any of the numbers have changed especially the nitrates.


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## Price

Amie said:


> You ditched the Anacharis!?!?! OMG Why!!!! LOL. Yeah-I don't like them much either.
> 
> Not sure what to make of the snail. You might be right that they were not in great shape to begin with. But, this is why starting with things that are so sensitive is a good idea. Let's see how the others do. Check your water again later today or tomorrow to see if any of the numbers have changed especially the nitrates.


Lol they weren't growing and the leaves just made a mess lol 

And I will test again tonight! As of this morning a few hours ago the shrimp was still alive lol so I'm hopeful!


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## Price

just tested 

Ammonia 0-.25

Nitrite 0

nitrates 0-5 prolly like 1 or 2 but i dont know its a little orange but not completly

so im kinda baffled, ammonia should be showing 0 should it not? haha i dunno shrimp is still alive so it cant be that bad lol 

ill test again tm as usual!

Let me know what you think!

Now that i think about it the ammonia test i may have added 9 drops each by accident.... could this cause a jump in the water test? lol

Thanks!!


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## Price

okay new test results

ammonia- 0-.25 but more 0 than .25

nitrite 0

Nitrate 0-5 somewhere in the middle 

So basically everything seems to be the same!


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## jrman83

Personally, I don't think there is anything baffling about your test results. Since the results seem to be fairly constant over the last few tests with persistent ammonia I would say you have one of two things going on. One, your tank is still cycling or two, the amount of decaying flakes and ammonia from it, is beyond the capacity of your bio-filter to reduce it. Easy to fix with nothing in the tank. Amazes me that your tank has plants. Wonder what your test would be without them.


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## Price

Lol but after two months your saying my tank is still in the first part of the cycle ammonia?? And I would think a shrimp couldn't handle a cycle but mine seems to be fine Eatin g the old flakes and algae lol


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## jrman83

Price said:


> Lol but after two months your saying my tank is still in the first part of the cycle ammonia?? And I would think a shrimp couldn't handle a cycle but mine seems to be fine Eatin g the old flakes and algae lol


Prove the theory wrong and stock it. You must feel the same or there would be more than 1 shrimp and 1 snail in there. 1 out of 3 shrimp, right? Just not sure what you're waiting on. Your tank, just thought it odd. 

If your tank was completely cycled you wouldn't have a postive ammonia reading. Unless, there is either a persistent ammonia source that your bb cannot handle (your bio-filter) or your tank hasn't completely cycled. Not too many things in between. 1 shrimp continuing to live in your tank doesn't mean anything other than he is pretty tough because most don't handle ammonia too well.

Go buy 3 fish and put in the tank. You'll know within a week if it has completed. But....adding them when you still have decaying food in the tank (the persistent source mentioned above) may not be a good idea. So how long and why keep it in there? Just thought one day you wanted fish. Like I said, your tank. I just need to read and move on and not get into your business.


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## Amie

No your tank has not completed established it's cycle but it's close enough to finished or far enough along to support life. Remember I said the snails and shrimp were good things to add first because if they survive then you have no problem supporting fish. the ammonia in your tank is not at a level to bother the fish. not sure if it's at a level to bother the shrimp and snail. But your tank is far from the beginning of the cycle. Nitrates are the last thing produced so the only thing right now to keep you from saying that your cycle is totally established is the remaining ammonia level. It should not get any higher and should soon start to diminish. When it does you might also see a small rise in the nitrite levels. As to the flakes in the tank I would still leave them there. Jrman might be right that the bacteria might be able to live for a long time without food but if he is wrong and you take their food source out then you risk them starving to death and then you will be back at the beginning of the cycle again. If you want to get rid of them what you could do is vacuum after adding a few fish to the tank. Once you add a couple of fish then you won't need the extra source of ammonia anyway because the fish will be providing a constant source so you could vacuum them out then if you want. I would still leave them alone if it was my tank for the snail and shrimp to feast on but they have enough food anyway without it and if you find that they are low on food then you can simply add something else for them to eat. 

Perhaps it might be something else altogether that killed the other two shrimp: my guess is phosphates. When doing a fishless cycle with flakes it's not unusual to have a rise in phosphate levels towards the end. Phosphates cause algae blooms and shrimp don't like it very much. I am not sure if there is a phosphate test kit that you can get. It's not something I have ever checked my tanks for.


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## Price

cant do a multi quote so im just gonna go in order hhaha

Jrman! I didnt mean to sound not sure what the word im looking for is, well like i knew it was done! just asking questions man no need to get angry! we are all friends haha im just asking questions and trying to learn as i go!! I was just asking if you were saying that you think im still at the beggining with ammonia in my cycle! lol so please do not be angry or upset with me! you have helped me out a ton!!!!

As to amie! thank you! lol and the ammonia each day has turned more and more yellow so im assuming its going down! i will test again later today! 

As to tha alage bloom from phosphates, i read that and thats why ive kinda given up on it for now! i read that dead plant material, food, and such can alll promote an algae bloom so im assuming once i get some fish and the snail and shrimp clean up the dead stuff it should clear up!! 

im still adding one or two flakes daily, should i stop this now? since hopefully ill get a fish soon like next week, or should i still add one just for a litttle food?

thanks


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## Amie

I would still add one a day anyway (I'm more protective over my bacteria then I am over my fish LOL) but I don't think you would hurt anything at this point if you did stop putting them in. Keeping in mind that it will probably be less then a weeks time and you will have a fish in there. If you totally stop the flakes I would say definitely don't remove any debris or flakes before adding a fish. Also, for added security, check with your pet store and see what they would test your water for it you brought it in. Some test for phosphates and hardness and stuff like that so you could get them to check your water before buying any fish just for extra added safety. Then after having the fish for a few days (a few days of the fish being an ammonia source for the tank) you could do a small partial water change and vacuum if you want.


----------



## Price

Amie said:


> I would still add one a day anyway (I'm more protective over my bacteria then I am over my fish LOL) but I don't think you would hurt anything at this point if you did stop putting them in. Keeping in mind that it will probably be less then a weeks time and you will have a fish in there. If you totally stop the flakes I would say definitely don't remove any debris or flakes before adding a fish. Also, for added security, check with your pet store and see what they would test your water for it you brought it in. Some test for phosphates and hardness and stuff like that so you could get them to check your water before buying any fish just for extra added safety. Then after having the fish for a few days (a few days of the fish being an ammonia source for the tank) you could do a small partial water change and vacuum if you want.


well the petsmarts, i looked when ihad them test some a few weeks ago, they have 3 things they test with, well maybe two, one strip has a PH test, one has Ammonia nitrite and nitrate, so yeah two test strips, lol i think they are the jungle brand also but alright ill keep adding about one a day thats not two bad! and it give sshrimp somethin to munch on haha!


----------



## Price

so i hate bad news, so snail was floating a day or two ago no big deal right? cuz eventually he clung to the glass and crawled down, well i looked at him a minute ago and he was laying on his back..... so i pulled him out and touched him kinda shook him and all this nasty goo came out and wel the goo was his body basically haha so i lost mr. snail........... im so confused!!!!! i even read that snails can survive a full cycle with ammonia.... so what the pooo  he lady that got him out of the tank was EXTREMLY rough like pinning him against the glass and such but i figured she does this more than i do..... could that of been a problem? OR is it my water? OR was he just old lol so my tank is down to one shrimp ;( but hes doing great  i feel like im failing already!  lol 

So what is the opinion?

i dont think it was ammonia purly because i have read that people have had snails that survive cycles, and that the mystery snail is great at it .................. haha 

jrman........... im sure your laughing at me right now lol


----------



## Amie

Well, this is why you decided to go with the shrimp and snails though before the fish-to make sure they iron out any problems before you put fish in. Totally sucks that you have lost 2 shrimp and the snail. I feel rotten about that but still that is why I figured starting with the most sensitive would be a good way to go. I'm not sure is Snails are affected by phosphate levels or not. I would suggest getting a phosphate test kit and seeing what the level of that is in the tank. How is the algae bloom going now and what is the sequence for turning on and off your lights? Have these 3 all died around the same time of day or around the same time of your light schedule? I'm wondering if their deaths might be linked to a ph swing caused by photosynthesis. I don't think it's the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate levels so I'm thinking either ph or phosphate. Trying testing your ph in the morning not long before you turn on the lights and test again in the evening just before you turn the lights out. Try that for a few days and see how it goes. Were the shrimp full grown? I read that shrimp only live for about a year to a year and a half. If the cycle was totally established then I would say do a partial water change just to be on the safe side but yours is not totally completed yet. So it's a matter of weighing slowing down the end of the cycle with trying to ensure the last shrimp stays upright........Yeah, go for about a 30% water change but if you have a sterile container keep a sample of the water that you take out so that when you get your new phosphate test kit you can check the level before and after.


----------



## jrman83

Price said:


> So what is the opinion?
> 
> i dont think it was ammonia purly because i have read that people have had snails that survive cycles, and that the mystery snail is great at it .................. haha
> 
> jrman........... im sure your laughing at me right now lol


Not sure why you would think that.

I do wonder sometimes what your idea of a fishless cycle is and at what point it is that you think it is "over" and considered safe to add fish. I know that most of this is new to you, but have you read an article or anything about doing a fishless cycle and how to conduct it? 

Personally, I think your tank is toxic to some level. Shrimp aren't really a good test, but as you said yourself snails usually make it through a complete cycle - haven't researched that myself but I'll take your word for it. Who knows where your cycle is at. I haven't seen you post results that showed you dirving up any particular readingl and seen the corresponding reaction to that high level. I don't think I missed it and don't plan to read over your 80 page thread. This is why the flake method is flakey itself and has to be the worst way to cycle a tank. Don't get me wrong, it works but it is not controllable at any level. Even adding a dead shrimp would have worked better. Not your fault in your choice of method and it doesn't even matter where the idea came from. It is mentioned on the internet.

Bottom line, at some point you're supposed to stock the tank with something other than plants or flakes. At that point your focus shifts to the care and feed of the inhabitants, not for the bacteria they provide. It's a good idea to protect it for sure, but if the tank has finished cycling it will take care of itself as long as you don't do something crazy and not well thought out. It is not a day for day or microbe per microbe decision and planning. If you feel your tank has finished cycling, not sure what one more week will do in the absence of any readings, then clean all the crap out of your tank that has killed what you've put in it so far and put fish in it. With doing that...you'll lose nothing! Despite where your tank may be, it will be much farther along than the guy starting out his cycle today with putting in two fish, or three, or four..... 

Your algae comes from all the nutrients on your tank. The same thing the rest of us get when we do things like overfeed. Your last two months has been nothing but a massive overfeed. 

Like I said earlier, not too hard to figure out what is going on in your tank and I don't think you need a few of us telling you conflicting info and what to do down to what day to do it on. A cycle with fish would have been easier on you than this. I know my last cycle with fish was easier.

And I am not mad. We all just want you to succeed.


----------



## Price

well, as to my schedulee i kinda took it off of it cuz i left my light out for about 4 or 5 days, now im leaving it off alot but the past 2 days i have turned it on for abour 4 or 5 hours each day

Algae bloom seems to be better after the water change, but its still there


and jr thank you, i read about the algae being from over feeding so ive figured its just gonna be there for a little while! and i think i will go get another snail tommorow, i have 4 more days on my 14 day return ( i know it may or may not have been my fault) but i do want a snail and id rather save as much money as i can haha! and i will add a fish monday! reguardless i think im ready to go ahead and add one, the molly should be good correct? it is s slighlty hardy fish? 

i guess my reason for going fishless is cuz i didnt wanna jump in you know? just kinda first see if i could live with having a tank in the first place and well ive done pretty good on feeding nothing  ill test again tonight! and update! 

AS to shrimp he is good last i saw he was purched up high on wisteria! and the funny thing is he would be the adult of the 3 i got, he was the biggest haha! 

As to my new snail i think im going with yellow or black... the blue didnt do to well haha!!!

Tonights test results suck lol 

Ammonia .25-.5 
nitrite 0
nitrate lets say 3 


now i have a theory, the snail had rotted by the time i got to it, therefore rot = ammonia? could be wrong either way im gettin a new one tommorow since ammonia isnt supposed to really hurt them anyways


and a fish is coming monday reguardless haha ill turn it into a fish cycle if i have to but like jr said at some point its time for fish! lol so it looks like a fish cycle it is!! hopefully a molly will work for this! lol 

so im going to petsmart tommorow! if theres anything yall think i should pick up let me know! 
as far as i know all im doing is getting another snail lol i may also get some flourish since i have 3 dollars off right now haha, 

also plant update the red wendtii, seemed to have died off well as of the last 4 days its gone crazy 5 new leaves on both and full grown leaves at that! lol anyways thats that!


----------



## Price

Okay got my new snail today, gold mystery snail, and he seems to already be more active than the blue one!! hes clinched onto some dead wisteria right now! 

Just tested 

Ammonia 0! if its anything then itd be like .05 lol 
Nitrite 0
Nitrate still like 2 or 3 

so tank has snail and shrimp, come monday then it will have a molly! 


also ive been thinking and just throw me some suggestions if you think of any! 

ive been thinking about maybe more of a show peice to the tank haha like a really neat crazy wild fish! but one that stays small! what do yall think? ive thought about a puffer like the leopard, or just i dunno anything that is freakin awesome if yall have any suggestions throw it out there, im open to anything butttttt im also open to just keeping it like i have it kinda planned out lol so thats that and just thought id throw the update out there! 


Thanks


----------



## M1ster Stanl3y

I say do something crazy, something never done b4 do....

A goldfish....haha jk

Get what you wanna stair at, look up tanks on youtube and pick n choose what you like or dislike

My vote tho baby saltwater croc, they come outta the egg at only 3 inches. Who cares if they grow 15 plus feet, you can always feed them stray children you pick up in your puppy n candy van you park by the school....again jk


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## Price

haha that would be awesome lol but deffinatly dont have that room! bahahaa

Okay so tested tonight 

ammonia 0 but if you gotta call it exact itd be like .05 or .1 haha so very low if at all! depends how you look at your tube i think!!

nitrite 0

nitrate still prolly 1 or 2 

so tommorow i am picking up my first fish on the way home from school!! im gonna buy a molly not sure if im going to get black, silver or a dalmation! but i kno itll be a molly! also gonna get the top fin flake food i think for now, unless someone convinces me that the name brands are any better which they may be haha if they are then let me know! lol 

Also are the color enhancing foods really color enhancing? like is it worth the extra? lol 

Welp thats where im at! let me know any suggestions!! 

also on a side note, the local fish store, has a help wanted sign up.... im thinking bout applying haha itd be basically my first job ive always been full time student and just keeping my grades up, but money kinda is somehting i love and i figure it can have its advantages ill get discounts and access to awesome fish! and just making some money! lol 

Well anyways let me know ill check this throughout school tommorow!


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## M1ster Stanl3y

i still say salt water croc...but fine go for a molly...my croc will just eat your molly later... 

good luck tho


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## Price

Alright so i picked up my molly today!!! i got a Dalmatian! and i THINK its a He haha but not positive but pretty sure! anyways got him and some fish food! hes swimming around having a good time i thinik!

Anyways as for feeding, whats the suggestion? do i go ahead and feed? or nor food for a few days? 

Wellp ill get a picture up here in a few!!


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## M1ster Stanl3y

wait a few.


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## Price

Alright gotcha! just out of curiosity, whats the reasoning for no feeding on the first fish for a few days? im guessing less food=less poop=less ammonia but i can be wrong!! haha

Thanks!!


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> Alright gotcha! just out of curiosity, whats the reasoning for no feeding on the first fish for a few days? im guessing less food=less poop=less ammonia but i can be wrong!! haha
> 
> Thanks!!


Basically that's right.

When I first setup my leiden tanks I would plant wait a week then add a single male platty. According to what I read that first fish was considered sacrificial. And just like clock work it would slow down the third day, be almost motionless on the bottom the 4th day and die the 5th day. That happened in every tank I setup over decades. The second fish always lived.

So one time I took the attitude will he's gonna die anyway so I won't waste the food and didn't add food the first week. What happened is the fish remainded active that first week. As have several tanks I setup later with no food being added. Then the second week I started adding a single flake per day and the third added a female. All the fish including that first male survived with the usual stable population of 20-30 (10g tank) fish lasting for years and years.

I did do some tests where I measured ammonia, nitrItes, nitrates, ph. What happened was when I added that first fish with no food, ammonia did spike up (.25-.5ppm or so) the next day but then immediately dropped back down the third. And nitrItes had a small spike after that ( like 1ppm or so). Again dropping down the next day.

So my speculation would be ammonia (or probably nitrItes by the timing) spiked up very high with the added food and that resulted in the loss of the first fish. Then the bacteria build up was sufficient to help the plants keep those down for the second fish.

I also found out there is an old out of publication book on ballanced aquariums where they recommended not adding food for the first 3 weeks. As I believe Dianna Waldstad recommends in the ecology of planted aquarium.

So I guess I just discovered what others had been doing all along.

As an engineer I am very familiar with reinventing the wheel. *old dude


my .02


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## Price

Alright awesome! Thank you!! I like knowing the reasoning just more knowledge! 
Lost my second snail tho. Shrimp is still great and Molly is happy so idk what the deal is I posted in the invertebrate section asking so I think I'mma wait awhile before getting another snail haha, I was planning on Monday or tuesday getting a second Molly if everything reads good! I'll kno tonight where it's at


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## M1ster Stanl3y

since your snails keep dieing im wondering if there maybe something in your substrate that is harmful. Like copper. What is your substrate like?


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## Price

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> since your snails keep dieing im wondering if there maybe something in your substrate that is harmful. Like copper. What is your substrate like?


substrate is the bottom layer peat moss, then play sand and the top layer is just blue gravel from petsmart, dunno what brand it is, just the regular gravel nothin fancy, and wouldnt copper also kill the shrimp?


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## M1ster Stanl3y

That it would, hrmmm...i wounder whst the silent killer is then. Anything special about your peat


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## Price

nope regular spagnum peat moss from lowes, i have no clue, BUT i went by the LFS to see if they had some nerites and they did i grabed one, and let me tell you hes already rockin and a rollin after 5 min in the tank, the mysterys took like 6 or 7 hours before they even came out of their shell! so i guess ill see if its just the mysterys or if its snails in general!

Last night did a 5 gallon water change while using some air line as a suction and cleaned up a goood bit of dead plant/food off the bottom figured the 5 would help with this algae bloom too! im ready for it to go away lol 
Checked ammonia and nitrite before the change and they were both at 0 so its supporting the molly for this is the 3rd day now and had no ammonia yesterday hes swimming all over seems happy im sure he will be more happy after i feed him prolly saturday or sunday! 


Welp this is where im at


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## Price

Alright so anyone that might still read this, as an update, i did the blackout and it helped but did not clear it completly so for now im just working on keeping it like it is maybe makeing itclearer just slower. 

Added a Female Cremecicle lyretail molly, and a Peppered cory last night, both seem to be doing good, both eating. Kind of hoping that the mollys breed i have read that they will so hopefully they do taht would be some interesting babys! 

Welp thats where im at, nxt fish i plan on getting is an oto or two for algae cleanup.


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## beaslbob

Price said:


> Alright so anyone that might still read this, as an update, i did the blackout and it helped but did not clear it completly so for now im just working on keeping it like it is maybe makeing itclearer just slower.
> 
> Added a Female Cremecicle lyretail molly, and a Peppered cory last night, both seem to be doing good, both eating. Kind of hoping that the mollys breed i have read that they will so hopefully they do taht would be some interesting babys!
> 
> Welp thats where im at, nxt fish i plan on getting is an oto or two for algae cleanup.


IMHO the key now is to continue with much less added food and 1/2 duration lighting. If it clears then increase lighting, if it clouds up decrease, If it stays the same don't change. *old dude

my .02


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