# Still having trouble



## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi all,

I'm still new around here. And I'm still having trouble with my tank. 

I have a 5-5.5 gallon tank (Fluval Spec). It's an attractive little aquarium and I love it. I'm having problems keeping fish though. 

Here is my first thread explaining my 'new to tankhood' mistake.

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/newbie-mistake-new-tank-didnt-cycle-55762.html



To pick up where I left off, all the guppies I previously had, had died. To clarify, the "loach" I have is one of those small golden sucking loaches. It's not very big, and, from what I can tell, much small than a traditional loach. It seems to be happy, but I apparently also still have some learning to do. 

I have the golden sucking loach and a small snail in there right now. After all the problems I had, I just said I'd let the tank work itself out. I'd do what I could manage spiking amonia or nitrite levels but I wouldn't add any more fish until it was settled and cycled. I also started adding API Quick Start any time I'd notice ammonia to get some nitrifying bacteria in there.

Well...I went on vacation for 2 weeks recently. My roommate fed the loach while it was out and it survived just fine. When I came back I tested the water and found something odd. Levels were 0 across the board. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I thought there should at least be some nitrate. When I was have trouble with my levels, I had begun getting some nitrates amongst the ammonia and nitrite levels. After some searching, I read that it's possible for nitrates to read 0 if the tank is fully cycled and really clean. Which in all honesty, it "looks" pristine. My pH is between 7.4-7.6 and I keep the tank between 74-76 F. I thought I'd try adding some more guppies so I bought 4 early this past weekend. All 4 died within 72 hours.  I tested probably twice a day from the moment I added them to monitor and see if anything started going off. Everything stayed at zero. So I thought maybe it was an established aquarium and any waste was quickly being converted. Levels stayed at 0 the whole time but the guppies still died.  My golden sucking loach has survived this whole time though. Put him in when I first got the tank probably about 2 months ago now.

Is there something I'm doing wrong? Is it possible my tank reverted to being completely "uncycled"? Is there something I'm not testing for? I'm at a loss. I want to be a good fish taker/caregiver. lol. But I'm not doing a good job it seems.


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## BeccaBx3 (Sep 21, 2011)

It sounds like your tank is finally cycled. The guppies probably died because living through a cycle is hard on fish. Give it a bit more time and see what it does.. but like i said it sounds cycled. None of my tanks show any nitrates once they are cycled. But they are all planted.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

BeccaBx3 said:


> It sounds like your tank is finally cycled. The guppies probably died because living through a cycle is hard on fish. Give it a bit more time and see what it does.. but like i said it sounds cycled. None of my tanks show any nitrates once they are cycled. But they are all planted.


That's another thing. I noticed other places mentioned the 0 nitrate thing for planted aquariums, but I have no live plants. Is it still possible? I'm using the API Freshwater Master testing kit.

I realize the guppies died that went through the cycle, but the ones I bought just about 5 days ago died as well. All 4. No spikes (or changes at all) occured during that whole time that I measured. Still 0's across the board. And I measured quite a number of times in those 3 days (maybe about 6 or 7).

Could it be a hard/soft water thing? Should I maybe just try a different fish? Tetras maybe?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

If you're getting readings of 0 ppm for ammonia, nitrite AND nitrate, your tank has not cycled. Your guppies are probably dying from new tank syndrome, i.e. ammonia poisoning. In a 5 gallon tank, levels can skyrocket inside a 24 hour window, and can wipe out critters in the same amount of time.

Plus, if you go long enough between bouts of adding fish, the ammonia levels will drop off, and the bacteria that help cycle the tank will starve and die without a source of ammonia. We call this a "stalled cycle". Similarly, sudden additions of a lot of fish (and even though it might only be 5 guppies, that's a small tank to be adding that many at once) will overload the bacteria in the tank and the ammonia and nitrite levels will surge. This is what we call a "mini cycle" because it is usually short-lived.

My suggestion would be to look into fishless cycling, by either daily pinches of flake food, daily doses of pure ammonia, or a raw piece of seafood. This will ensure your tank has a steady artificial source of ammonia and the bacteria will colonize BEFORE you add fish.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Also, are you treating the tap water before adding it to your tank with a tap water conditioner, i.e. a dechlorinator? Many municipal water utilities treat their tap water with chlorine and/or chloramine, which are toxic to fish.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

Gizmo said:


> If you're getting readings of 0 ppm for ammonia, nitrite AND nitrate, your tank has not cycled. Your guppies are probably dying from new tank syndrome, i.e. ammonia poisoning. In a 5 gallon tank, levels can skyrocket inside a 24 hour window, and can wipe out critters in the same amount of time.
> 
> Plus, if you go long enough between bouts of adding fish, the ammonia levels will drop off, and the bacteria that help cycle the tank will starve and die without a source of ammonia. We call this a "stalled cycle". Similarly, sudden additions of a lot of fish (and even though it might only be 5 guppies, that's a small tank to be adding that many at once) will overload the bacteria in the tank and the ammonia and nitrite levels will surge. This is what we call a "mini cycle" because it is usually short-lived.
> 
> My suggestion would be to look into fishless cycling, by either daily pinches of flake food, daily doses of pure ammonia, or a raw piece of seafood. This will ensure your tank has a steady artificial source of ammonia and the bacteria will colonize BEFORE you add fish.


I tested the water numerous times daily on this last round. Twice usually and one day I did 3. Nothing ever came up with ammonia. Not even .25ppm. I would think at least SOMETHING would have shown up. But maybe not.

If I revert back to go to fishless, I'll have to remove all fish/"life" from the aquarium, correct? (as the name would suggest). From what I understand, in fishless, you can allow it to have large surges to get a cycled tank, but nothing fish could survive in.



Gizmo said:


> Also, are you treating the tap water before adding it to your tank with a tap water conditioner, i.e. a dechlorinator? Many municipal water utilities treat their tap water with chlorine and/or chloramine, which are toxic to fish.


Yes!  The conditioner I'm using says to use 5 drops per gallon. I have a pitcher that's dedicated to fish tank water changes that's a half gallon, and I use 3 drops every time.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Good to hear about the treating of your tap water. You can leave the livestock you've got in there in right now, what worries me is your readings. You're getting 0 on everything? Are you sure you're doing the tests right? Have you tried testing your tap water fresh out of the sink?
Do you have a whole-house water softener? They're great at lowering GH & KH but as a result of their salt-backflush capability the house tap water on a softened system is usually loaded with sodium.
Lastly, how many guppies did you have in a 5 gallon tank, and were they all male? Aggression might have been the demise of one/all of them, as could be disease they came into the tank with from the pet store.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

Gizmo said:


> Good to hear about the treating of your tap water. You can leave the livestock you've got in there in right now, what worries me is your readings. You're getting 0 on everything? Are you sure you're doing the tests right? Have you tried testing your tap water fresh out of the sink?
> Do you have a whole-house water softener? They're great at lowering GH & KH but as a result of their salt-backflush capability the house tap water on a softened system is usually loaded with sodium.
> Lastly, how many guppies did you have in a 5 gallon tank, and were they all male? Aggression might have been the demise of one/all of them, as could be disease they came into the tank with from the pet store.


As of yesterday morning (after I took the last dead guppy out  ), they were all 0. I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right. I even went through and re-read the direction book a 2nd time to make sure. I'm doing the bottles in the correct sequence and all. Waiting the 5 or so minutes it suggests for the reading to fully develop. Everything is a, without question, 0 across the board (except pH of course  ). I did have readings before I went on vacation and was noiticing the problems too, so it's not like the drops I had were bad or anything or weren't previously showing readings. I even did another reading after shaking the bottles really well per another suggestion I saw to make sure nothing was "settled". I haven't tried testing the tap water out of the faucet. I live in an apartment, so I don't think there is any significant or extra in the way of water softening. I added 4 guppies. All male.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What is your tank's ph? When you wash your hair does it take a lot of shampoo to get it lathered up or does it take very little? If your appt. complex is on a softner system or the water is just really soft, you could be having issues from it. If your hair lathers very easy with little soap you have soft water. The sodium may not be a big issue if that type of softning is being done, but the lack of minerals to hold a stable ph will be.

Test ph directly from your tap and then from your tank....any difference? Take a small sample and set aside and test the sample about 24hrs later. My kid had the same issue with his tank in the appts he lived in. Ended up having to use crushed coral to hold a stable ph value.

Also, extremely small tanks can be hard to cycle and can give you strange readings. You may look like your cycled, but you may not be. From what I have read they potentially add a good month or two onto the normal cycle period.


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## Jenniferinfl (May 3, 2013)

What are you using to condition the water for your tank? Some water conditioners neutralize nitrates and nitrites. 

That was definitely way too many guppies for a 5 gallon tank. I had just 2 of them in a 5 gallon tank and the nitrates were nearly unmanageable. 

Oh yes, what does your nitrate test look like? Is it bright yellow or clear? If it's clear and your using an API nitrate test kit, then something is amiss. The nitrate test kit requires that you add ten drops of reagent one to the test tube of water, then shake reagent 2 for 30 seconds, then add ten drops of reagent 2 to the test tube of water and then shake the test tube for a whole minute. At that point you time for another 5 minutes to get your result. A lot of people mess that test up. Nitrites and ammonia tests are pretty straightforward, but lots of people goof their nitrate tests.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Luv the spec(I have 2).How are acclimating your fish? Drip acclimation is the best method.
1^ with jrman also.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor
Delete anything on this and add yours to see what it says about overstocking as I'm inclined to go/w Jenniferinfl on that idea.
Seems to me it said I was overstocked when I had three guppies and a dozen Red Cherry Shrimp plus a Khuli loach in a ten G.
Two things you might stick somewhere in all you've heard.
I've had nothing to live from Petco(guppy's).
Bio-bacteria colonize strictly by food supply. No shortage on space for them due to a small filter as the inside of the glass and
surface of the gravel are also colonized. But it takes a couple of days for them to multiply to meet the need of the new fish and 5 at one time
in that small of a space will drive up the ammonia quickly but after the first day...takes a little time for the waste to begin breaking down
in order for ammonia to form.
Red Cherry Shrimp are entertaining and a much better bet for a 5.5G tank. But three Guppy's would also work.
And here's one I'll get something thrown at me for no doubt. Try buying some of this as it's shelf life is almost forever. You can use small
doses of it when you add fish etc. I have used it in that capacity but not for starting a cycle.
Aquarium Products Freshwater Biozyme at PETCO


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

I can tell you my Spec V (also love this tank) took forever to cycle and it was well planted. I started to get nitrites, got excited and thought I was well on my way at one point and things went back to the beginning with no nitrites and back to just ammonia. This cycle was actually crazy to follow and drove me nuts. But I was doing fishless so I kept at it and eventually it progressed. I'm trying to remember but I think it was close to 2 months. 

Also, I tend to overstock a bit and I don't think 4 males guppies is too many if you keep up with maintenance. But you might also want to look at some of the smaller boraras or microrasboras. They are great and I keep 9 of the Boraras urophthalmoides in my Spec with countless RCS and two otos. The tank is heavily planted and has been going strong for several months now.
Once you get yours straightened out, you will love it.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> What is your tank's ph? When you wash your hair does it take a lot of shampoo to get it lathered up or does it take very little? If your appt. complex is on a softner system or the water is just really soft, you could be having issues from it. If your hair lathers very easy with little soap you have soft water. The sodium may not be a big issue if that type of softning is being done, but the lack of minerals to hold a stable ph will be.
> 
> Test ph directly from your tap and then from your tank....any difference? Take a small sample and set aside and test the sample about 24hrs later. My kid had the same issue with his tank in the appts he lived in. Ended up having to use crushed coral to hold a stable ph value.
> 
> Also, extremely small tanks can be hard to cycle and can give you strange readings. You may look like your cycled, but you may not be. From what I have read they potentially add a good month or two onto the normal cycle period.


pH is about 7.6; been holding pretty steady around there since I've had it.

For water hardness, it's a little difficult for me to say. In relation to my parents house (which they have to completely separate water softening systems making the water like butter), it's definitely harder water. How hard though I'm not sure.

I tested my tap as you said, and it appears to be slightly more akaline than my tank. Looks like it's ~8.0.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

Jenniferinfl said:


> What are you using to condition the water for your tank? Some water conditioners neutralize nitrates and nitrites.
> 
> That was definitely way too many guppies for a 5 gallon tank. I had just 2 of them in a 5 gallon tank and the nitrates were nearly unmanageable.
> 
> Oh yes, what does your nitrate test look like? Is it bright yellow or clear? If it's clear and your using an API nitrate test kit, then something is amiss. The nitrate test kit requires that you add ten drops of reagent one to the test tube of water, then shake reagent 2 for 30 seconds, then add ten drops of reagent 2 to the test tube of water and then shake the test tube for a whole minute. At that point you time for another 5 minutes to get your result. A lot of people mess that test up. Nitrites and ammonia tests are pretty straightforward, but lots of people goof their nitrate tests.



I'm using 'Marineland Aquarium Conditioner'. 

Nitrate test is not clear. Just very apparently yellow indicating no nitrates.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> Luv the spec(I have 2).How are acclimating your fish? Drip acclimation is the best method.
> 1^ with jrman also.


Thanks! I'll try that as well. Haven't yet.


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## TR189 (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm pretty sure now that it did revert, as when I tested tonight after my water change, ammonia was at .25ppm, and nitrates and nitrites were 0. :/

Just got put some more work into I think.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Make sure if you clean the filter you rinse it in the old aquarium water not tap water. The tap water will kill your bacteria. Also don't replace your filter media until it can not be rinsed out anymore, and then never all at once.


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