# Having Major Problems with GBR's.. Enternal Parasites maybe?



## BSCfootball16 (Aug 8, 2012)

So I've had my aquarium for years now and have never had any problems with parasites other than ich. But right now I am stumped on the cause of my fish dying!!!!!!! To start off, I bought 4 neon tetras and 4 red minor serpae tetras from a LFS. I got some German Blue Rams with great colors from a really reliable store a couple days after the tetras. Then 2 days later I was able to make another run and get 2 more GBR's and 3 neon tetras to fill out my tank from a random LFS. Everything was going great, I even had two of the rams mate and lay eggs. None of them hatched but that lets me know the fish are not stressed and everything is going well right? I know it takes a couple times for the rams to get the whole breeding thing right so I am not worried about the eggs not hatching. But probably a week after eggs were layed I had my first neon tetra and a serpae tetra die in the same day. I had noticed the Serpae tetra was really really pale that morning but didnt investigate it any further than that because I had class. And now a week later and I've lost every single one of my rams. Each ram went one by one. One day I would notice them being really pale, not swimming around at all, and staying in one spot sitting on the ground. And then the next day it would be dead. 3 of the 5 died in two days and after that I started treating the tank for enternal parasites. but after the first treatment I lost my last two rams the next two days after. I am still treating the tank for the enternal parasites. But I just want confirmation of that being the problem. And any personal suggestions for treating enternal parasites? right now i am using Tetra Parasite Guard. My water is pretty hard but it wouldn't effect the fish like that would it? But while I'm at it, how do I get my water softer? I dont have a clue what else could be the problem other than enternal parasites.
My water readings are:
Nitrate : 20 ppm (mg/L)
Nitrite : 0
Hardness : 200 GH
Chlorine : 0
Alkalinity : 60 KH
pH : 7.0


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Your water is much too hard for Tetras and Rams. I am suprised your ph isn't near 8.0 with a 200 hardness. An easy and safe way to lower your hardness is to gradually replace your tank's water with Distilled Water. Your hardness should gradually drop. Hard water like you have usually comes from wells. The water sits in contact with Limestone for years.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Rams are pretty sensitive to water conditions, so that may be a big factor. Also just like any other cichlid they are very territorial. How big is this tank we are talking about?


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## BSCfootball16 (Aug 8, 2012)

Yeah I figured the hardness would have something to do with it but I didn't think it would effect them that much. It's a 20 L.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Honestly for GBR I wouldn't have put near that many fish in a 20L, I would have done maybe the 2 GBR and maybe 3-5 neons. Also they have about a 3ft territory each so they would have been going to war over territory constantly. With GBR the key to success is very light stocking in a heavy planted tank with a lot of waterchanges.


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## BSCfootball16 (Aug 8, 2012)

Yeah, I already had it in my mind that once they started breeding I would get rid of a couple to keep the fish from getting to aggressive. But I never had a problem with them being too aggressive. No tail nippings or chasing any of the fish away.. I feel like I had enough fish in there to where none of them could obtain their own territory and that helped not have any aggression issues. 
I do have a heavily planted tank and I do water changes about once every two weeks. So you think the problem is mainly just my water hardness?


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

Id say there's probably a whole lot going on here, as others stated rams are pretty sensitive and your water is really too hard for them, the tank being too small, it seems to me like you've added a lot of fish in a short period of time, and with the rams having eggs that they are very protective of all had a role to play 

There's no way that many fish should be in a tank that's alittle over 5g, for GBR's you really should have a 75l tank atleast

They need impecable water quality with a soft-medium hard water with a neutral ph

Have any of your lost fish shown signs of being attacked? Split fins or bite marks? Also what kind of test kit are you using? How long has the tank been setup?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Evolution has gotten you. German Blue Rams are an aquarium morph of breeder selected cichlids from Venezuela and Colombia, in the Llanos region. They come from pristine water with zero ppm and a really low pH (around 5) - water so extreme most fish couldn't live in it. To occupy such a habitat, they have had to adapt in a number of ways. 
The GBR form is a breeder selected one, but they haven't bred the need for soft water out of them. They are more mineral tolerant than wilds (I've kept both - and domestics will thrive between pH 6-7, and at around 40-60ppm gh), but in inappropriate water, they gradually fade and live lives much shorter than they do in good conditions.
One thing you saw was the eggs. When they are fertilized, they immediately draw in water in a search for essential minerals that are very scarce in their habitat. In your hard water, that desperation mechanism kills them, as the egg is open to too many minerals and hardens beyond hatchability.

Their water is really clean - rams are as difficult and demanding as discus would be if they were the same size. Your tank was overstocked beyond any scale. I would not keep one ram in five gallons, alone. I count 11 tetras and 4 cichlids in a tank big enough for 3 or 4 neons at most. If you respected the rams' temperature needs, there would have been an oxygen shortage in a tank that crowded, and it was a matter of time til it all added up to a disaster.

I wouldn't play with softer water, as much as I love rainforest fish. You should do a little digging into what fish will do well in your conditions, paying attention to fish from Central and North America (where the water is hard). East African fish are an option but are too big for such a small tank.


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm reading this as a 20 long, not 20 liter (5+ Gal)


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Could be - we'll wait for precisions. It's an international list so we think litres, but BSCfootball does sound American, doesn't it.
If so the crowding's less of a problem, but the hardness remains a difficulty.


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## BSCfootball16 (Aug 8, 2012)

Woah, sorry about that.. It's a 20 gallon tank! Haha L for long. I keep my water temp and 81 degrees F and I used a small test strip to get all my water readings. Like I said, there hasn't been any problems with nipped fins or signs of aggression to any of the fish. And I've had the tank set up for two years now. I decided to sell my old fish and try to tackle some of these GBR's.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

In that case things are lookin a bit better, #1 is toss those strips and get a liquid test kit, they are a ton more accurate which you would need to take on the GBR's, test the water daily and don't skimp on the water changes, what kind of filter are you using?

Sorry about the other post, my mind went straight to litres when I saw it and I damn near had a heart attack lol


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## BSCfootball16 (Aug 8, 2012)

Hahaha it's all good! Ok, will do on the liquid test kits. And for the water changes, ill just have to use distilled water for a portion of the new water I put in after a water change right? I have a penguin bio-wheel power filter and two sponge filters in my tank as well.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

YES! Mix distilled to hit target ph and/or hardness.


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