# /cry... tetras dying



## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

So I go to the fish store to pick up a few more fish since its been a week since I got my first 5 fish and the chick at petsmart tells me that the rainbow tetras will be fine with my 2 mollies and 3 platies I have in the tank. 2 have died already from the platies attacking them and I managed to get the last one into a baby pen thingy. What gives?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

Tank size:
Ammonia:
NitrIte:
NitrAte:
PH/GH/KH:
Cycled,yes or no:
Number of fish:
Acclimation process:
Physical signs of illness(IE spots,shimmer,ECT):
How often between fish additions:
Waterchange schedule:
Tank temp:

And any basic husbandry that you have been doing.

Those are some questions that would help a lot in figuring out what's wrong. In general, I'm guessing that your tank not cycled yet being the main culprit, and possibly aggression from overstocking? I'm not sure about the last one, since I don't know how big your tank is, but it sounds like you've been adding too many fish at once. If you don't know about the nitrogen cycle, (aka cycling) read up on it, that in itself will likely explain a lot of the problems you've been having.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

Tank size:30g
Ammonia: ?
NitrIte: ?
NitrAte: ?
PH/GH/KH: ?
Cycled,yes or no: no, I just setup the tank 3 weeks ago. pet store tested the water and said it was ok for me to get fish.
Number of fish: 6
Acclimation process: ?
Physical signs of illness(IE spots,shimmer,ECT): everything looks fine to me, but I'm new to this.
How often between fish additions: 1 week
Waterchange schedule: I'm going to take some water up there when I take the last tetra back and have them test it to see if I need to do my change.
Tank temp: 76

I added 5 fish the two weeks after setting up the tank. They mentioned since I was getting 5 fish that I should wait a week before adding more fish. I put the 3 tetras and 1 mm platy in the tank with the bag for 15 min, drop them in there after that and everythings to be going ok. The tetras were sticking to themselves and I went to the grocery store. After coming back I'm chilling on the couch watching tv and out of the corner of my eye I see a red flash and a limp lil tetra floating.

fish are: 2 dalmatian lyretail mollies, 4 platy's(1 sunburst, 2 red wag, 1 mm)


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You should never add more fish during the cycle. You end up introducing new fish to things like ammonia or nitrites. If you don't know the values for your tank you need to invest into a test kit, preferrably the liquid type.

Stop taking the advice of the pet store worker....they obviously don't know what they are talking about....common.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> You should never add more fish during the cycle. You end up introducing new fish to things like ammonia or nitrites. If you don't know the values for your tank you need to invest into a test kit, preferrably the liquid type.
> 
> Stop taking the advice of the pet store worker....they obviously don't know what they are talking about....common.


That's why I joined the forum! I know nothing!!! haha Name of the kit I need to invest in? Does it come with everything I need or are there a couple of kits I need to get?

oh and found a couple of babies, although one looks more like a tadpole than a fish. Can frog eggs hang out dry for a long period of time before hatching? the baby pen isn't new.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Get an API master test kit. It has ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and high/low ph tests. It will cover all your basic needs and get you through the cycle. You can get at Petsmart/Petco for abut $30 or order online through Walmart or Foster's and Smith's Aqautics (best prices).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Aquarium Water Testing: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

please explain this cycle thing, and is there any way to automate it? Whats the purpose of the filter if not to cycle the water? why are one of my fish biting at my air lines?


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

went to store got a kit, all the numbers are fine


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That's good.

Here is some info on the nitrogen cycle The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

No way to automate and the filter will help but it doesn't take care of it on its own.


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## scooterlady (May 10, 2011)

There's basically 3 ways to cycle a tank. Fishless, adding hardy fish, and silent(use of lots of plants) Read up on these and decide which way you want to go and if you ever have any questions, ask. This place is a gold mine of experience and advise. I've learned so much here. My first tank, I bought some books and read up, but never really got it right. Had alot of fish death. Dropped the hobby after i had to move a couple of years ago. This last year I decided to get back into the hobby and joined this forum and learned the remedy of every single problem I ever had with that first tank. I wish I would have joined sooner...better late than never! I'm doing my first planted tank. Haven't got the fish yet, but I got all the driftwood and plants in and I really surprised myself with how nice it looks. The tank is a 20 gallon long. I used diy extra dark window tint on the back wall of the tank and used Eco-Complete Red for my substrate I should get another picture. I didn't soak the driftwood before I put it in because I wanted to see it with the tannins. I actually like it. I'll post a pic...


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Was going to post, but sounds like Kehy, Ben and Scooterlady have it all under control! 

Good luck with your cycling!


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

scooterlady said:


> There's basically 3 ways to cycle a tank. Fishless, adding hardy fish, and silent(use of lots of plants) Read up on these and decide which way you want to go and if you ever have any questions, ask. This place is a gold mine of experience and advise. I've learned so much here. My first tank, I bought some books and read up, but never really got it right. Had alot of fish death. Dropped the hobby after i had to move a couple of years ago. This last year I decided to get back into the hobby and joined this forum and learned the remedy of every single problem I ever had with that first tank. I wish I would have joined sooner...better late than never! I'm doing my first planted tank. Haven't got the fish yet, but I got all the driftwood and plants in and I really surprised myself with how nice it looks. The tank is a 20 gallon long. I used diy extra dark window tint on the back wall of the tank and used Eco-Complete Red for my substrate I should get another picture. I didn't soak the driftwood before I put it in because I wanted to see it with the tannins. I actually like it. I'll post a pic...


yup that tank looks really good. I didn't know about the plant stuff. How do you keep the water looking clear? I didn't see a filter.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

holly12 said:


> Was going to post, but sounds like Kehy, Ben and Scooterlady have it all under control!
> 
> Good luck with your cycling!


ya getting caught up on all the good info they have left me.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

Did your tank come with a filter? It can be a box hanging off the side, or a box inside or a canister...or maybe even just a plate that you put under the gravel with a tube coming out of it (that you'd need to put an airstone in). 
If your tank came as a kit, more likely than not it has some sort of filtration.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

Kehy said:


> Did your tank come with a filter? It can be a box hanging off the side, or a box inside or a canister...or maybe even just a plate that you put under the gravel with a tube coming out of it (that you'd need to put an airstone in).
> If your tank came as a kit, more likely than not it has some sort of filtration.


I got a filter for the tank, tetra whisper ex 45. I have 3 air inputs into the tank from the pump.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

lol sorry, thought you were asking about your tank. But still, that seems like a good filter, which will make your life easier than if you had an underpowered or not enough filtration.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

No problemo, I'm just trying to keep my fish alive. Now I'm worried about this cycle thingy and don't want my fish to die during it.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

I've got some of the water from the previous owner of the tank. Should I add it into the tank to help with this process? Or will it increase my chances of something else going wrong? Maybe add a little into the filter? I read something about getting gravel from another tank.


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## scooterlady (May 10, 2011)

HK40 said:


> yup that tank looks really good. I didn't know about the plant stuff. How do you keep the water looking clear? I didn't see a filter.


I just set this up a few days ago. I've got an Eheim Ecco 2032 canister filter and an Aquaclear HOB filter. You can't see the HOB due to the window tint I put on the back to hide the equipment and show off the fish (when I get some...lol!) The intake and output for the Eheim are hidden behind the plants and the heater is an in-line heater attached to the output hose of the canister. So most of the equipment is hidden. The tank is not cycled yet. I'm planning on getting a few fish in the next couple of weeks and see how it goes. Heard that I should get a silent cycle with all the plants I've got in there, so I'll be able to add fish faster. I wish you the best on getting your tank cycled!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

HK - post your readings everyday and we can help you decide what you need to do to get through the cycle. Getting through the new tank syndrome can be a pain, but it shouldn't be too hard.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> HK - post your readings everyday and we can help you decide what you need to do to get through the cycle. Getting through the new tank syndrome can be a pain, but it shouldn't be too hard.


Ammonia: .5
NitrIte: 0
NitrAte: 5
PH/GH/KH: 7/75/40

What should I be looking out for and how do I treat/fix it? Should I be getting anything ready ahead of time? I like all my fish but I have really grown attached to my mollys and don't want to harm them.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

The only way to fix the issues with those three readings is to get your tank cycled. Looks like your ammonia is pretty high, normal for tanks while cycling, but pretty bad for fish. Eventually it will take care of itself, but there's a reason why people like fishless cycling... You will probably lose some fish during cycling, but that's normal too. Last time I checked though, platies and mollies were pretty hardy. Some people prefer cycling with platies actually, but you're still going to have to keep an eye on your fish.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

Still a little confused about this cycle. Is this just the first time the tank is being setup or does this happen all the time? I understand what happens about the break down of everything, but not sure about when I can start adding more fish and when is the tank normal.


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## scooterlady (May 10, 2011)

HK40 said:


> Still a little confused about this cycle. Is this just the first time the tank is being setup or does this happen all the time? I understand what happens about the break down of everything, but not sure about when I can start adding more fish and when is the tank normal.


When you finally have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and are starting to get nitrates, you're cycled and you can start adding fish slowly and test regularly. You may get an ammonia spike after you introduce the new fish...


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

scooterlady said:


> When you finally have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and are starting to get nitrates, you're cycled and you can start adding fish slowly and test regularly. You may get an ammonia spike after you introduce the new fish...


What would I do to fix the ammonia spike?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cycling is when bacteria that can turn ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate develop and grow to high enough levels in your tank that it can deal with the ammonia produced by your fish before it reaches levels that are high enough to weaken or kill your fish. While many people think all bacteria are bad, in your tank, bacteria = good!

Both ammonia and nitrite are harmful to your fish. Nitrate (can you see why people capitalize the letters?) is much less harmful, but can only be removed through water changes. It is the final product of the ammonia cycle. One of the reasons why plants are highly recommended is that they will use all three chemicals for fertilizer, and so help keep your water at healthier levels of all three. Even so, you still must complete the cycle to get a stable tank. This can take around 6-8 weeks, although it might go faster if you have "seed bacteria" from the substrate of a well-established tank. 

You know you have an ammonia cycled tank when it can go from ~.5 Ammonia to 0 overnight. NitrItes are the second part of the cycle and can take awhile to do as well, but you should also be getting a 0 on the nitrIte test once you are cycled. Once you are getting NitrAte readings, you can assume that the bacteria that turn nitrItes into nitrAtes have developed


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

HK40 said:


> What would I do to fix the ammonia spike?


Don't worry about that for the moment, you already have fish and are in the middle of cycling. Once you're cycled, then you can worry about other fish 
(besides, not that big of a deal, it's like cycling, but on a smaller scale)


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

Kehy said:


> You know you have an ammonia cycled tank when it can go from ~.5 Ammonia to 0 overnight.


So my ammonia is roughly at .5 how will it change to 0 overnight? On its own if there are good bacteria?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

HK40 said:


> So my ammonia is roughly at .5 how will it change to 0 overnight? On its own if there are good bacteria?


Yes, exactly. The bacteria make a HUGE difference in changing chemical levels like that. Remember though, cycling usually takes 6-8 weeks. You're probably going to want to be doing water changes to make sure you don't kill your fish in the mean time! The downside is, this slows down your cycle, sometimes by a LOT. The good side is, your fish have a better chance of survival


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

So if my ammonia doesn't go down, I need to do a % water change depending on how much ammonia. Correct?

- going 2 bed, thx for everyone's help! 


I'll be back


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

I wouldn't let the ammonia get above .5 do a 50% water change when you can. I cycled with fish and let the ammonia float between .25 and .5, I never lost a fish. Are you using a dechorinater?? You have to remover the chlorine from the water you are adding. It will kill the bacteria that is growing.

Have you got the grips with how and why the cycle is important?? I did see you were a bit confused still. But that might be a bit old. If not I will try and help. The filter is the heart of the tank and does more than just remove loose particles. Because the fish produce waste, there is basically 3 ways you can keep an aquarium. 1, change the water everyday, 2 have a heavily planted tank and let the plants absorb the waste or 3 grow beneficial bacteria in the filter. As you will be aware, this bacteria is converting ammonia to an end result of nitrate. Nitrate is not as toxic as ammo and nitrite but still has to be kept at safe levels. My planted tank, nitrate rarely gets above 10 because plants are absorbing some but I still do a 25% water change weekly. I would assume you will need to be doing 2 or 3 changes a week until you see the ammonia drop on it's own. You will also see the water go clear when it's done. At the moment your water is probably a bit cloudy?? You will notice this if you look through the tank length ways. It is normal for a cycling tank and is known as a bacterial bloom. Sorry if I have not made things clear, it is difficult typing this from my phone.... 

Keep up the good work


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

Double post!!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

HK40 said:


> Ammonia: .5
> NitrIte: 0
> NitrAte: 5
> PH/GH/KH: 7/75/40
> ...


With those readings I personally wouldn't do anything but continue to test daily. 

I always use the threshold of 1ppm to react with a water change. Short periods of 1ppm usually will not harm your fish and most can tolerate it and in the process it keeps levels high enough to continue development of your beneficial bacteria. It is the presence of ammonia that drives everything to occur in the cycle.

Patience is all you need right now. You're on the right track.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

How does my bacteria keep the good stuff in when I have to do a filter change every so often? Did I get the wrong type of stuff?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

The bacteria live everywhere in your tank, especially in your gravel or substrate. I've had a few problems with changing filters sometimes, but usually by then the other bacteria is stable enough that it can handle it and establish itself in the new filter material with no problems.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

numbers are the same.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

HK40 said:


> numbers are the same.


Alright, don't do anything. Easy, right?


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

sounds good to me


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

HK40 said:


> How does my bacteria keep the good stuff in when I have to do a filter change every so often? Did I get the wrong type of stuff?


Just keep in mind that you dont want to do anything to your filter until you've gotten through the cycle.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Just keep in mind that you dont want to do anything to your filter until you've gotten through the cycle.


I'm glad you said that I was going to change it when the little bar filled full.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

Ammonia: same
NitrIte: starting to move up and has me worried, getting close to .5
NitrAte: less than 20
PH/GH/KH: same

what should I do to get the NitrIte going back down?


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

HK40 said:


> Ammonia: same
> NitrIte: starting to move up and has me worried, getting close to .5
> NitrAte: less than 20
> PH/GH/KH: same
> ...


NitrIte: still getting higher, everything else seems to be ok.

I haven't vacuumed the gravel or changed anything yet waiting for this cycle. Do I need to do that and replace the water that was lost from that to lower the Nitrite?


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Do not vacuum the gravel while cycling. A lot of good bacteria is growing in the gravel and if you vacuum it, it's going to suck it all up, which will slow down your cycle.

Just keep an eye on the NitrItes and ammonia. If they start getting close to 1ppm, do water changes.

Keep us posted.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

ya its 1ppm or very close to it. I'm going to do a water change in the morning then.

Thanks!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

As the nitrites start to rise, the ammonia will zero out. Once that occurs you should start to see a decrease in the nitrites. Once they are both at 0 and you have some value of nitrates - you're done. Sounds like you're getting pretty close.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

awesome, that's what I was looking for jrman! I love that picture of the cat and his fruit helmet. At least I think its some kind of rind.


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## xxrockyhorrorsxx (Sep 27, 2011)

I've been having somewhat of a similar issue. My tank is relatively new; I've had it set up for over a month now, and have had 2 tetras, a daino, and a pleco living in it. I went and picked up 5 new tetras and 2 of them dissapeared within 24 hrs(NO idea where they went) and I found one floating up at the top after 48hrs. Did I add too many fish at once? Also, how can I know WHEN in the nitrogren cycle to add fish? Any help is appreciated


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

xxrockyhorrorsxx said:


> I've been having somewhat of a similar issue. My tank is relatively new; I've had it set up for over a month now, and have had 2 tetras, a daino, and a pleco living in it. I went and picked up 5 new tetras and 2 of them dissapeared within 24 hrs(NO idea where they went) and I found one floating up at the top after 48hrs. Did I add too many fish at once? Also, how can I know WHEN in the nitrogren cycle to add fish? Any help is appreciated


You would have to be testing your water often to know when your cycle is done. There's a lot in this thread about the cycle and testing results. Read through that if you haven't already.

Generally, if you're going to cycle the tank with fish in it, you wait until your cycle is complete. This often takes 2 months or so, and after that, you can add small numbers of fish, until you reach the desired stocking. Also, don't over stock, that's a major issue new tanks have. Also, since you have a pleco, keep in mind many will grow huge.


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## xxrockyhorrorsxx (Sep 27, 2011)

Kehy said:


> You would have to be testing your water often to know when your cycle is done. There's a lot in this thread about the cycle and testing results. Read through that if you haven't already.
> 
> Generally, if you're going to cycle the tank with fish in it, you wait until your cycle is complete. This often takes 2 months or so, and after that, you can add small numbers of fish, until you reach the desired stocking. Also, don't over stock, that's a major issue new tanks have. Also, since you have a pleco, keep in mind many will grow huge.


Thanks for the input. I read over the thread, and it all makes sense to me, the only thing that I'm concerned about is why only the NEW fish that I add die. I would imagine if my nitrites and ammonia were sky high then all of my fish would be dieing? 

I suppose I need to invest in a testing kit 0_o


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

xxrockyhorrorsxx said:


> Thanks for the input. I read over the thread, and it all makes sense to me, the only thing that I'm concerned about is why only the NEW fish that I add die. I would imagine if my nitrites and ammonia were sky high then all of my fish would be dieing?
> 
> I suppose I need to invest in a testing kit 0_o


Yes, testing kits are a great investment-if you get a liquid kit. the strips tend to be wildly inaccurate. 

I'm guessing the reason why it was only the new fish dying is that they wouldn't have been used to the chemicals in the water during cycling, which your previous fish would have had a chance to build up to. Still, no slacking on maintenance, fish are very fragile during cycling, even hardy ones. Also, don't add new fish while cycling and once you finally get through your cycle, be sure to acclimate new fish properly. There's a couple of threads on here about that.


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## scooterlady (May 10, 2011)

i've just started cycling 2 tanks. I'm using fish. My main tank is a 20 gallon long, heavily planted with 4 lemon tetras. The other tank is a 10 gallon, no plants and 3 lemon tetras. What I'm finding most interesting is the difference between the planted and unplanted tanks and ammonia levels. The tanks have been set up for 4 days now. The tank with plants has had no evidence of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, while the unplanted tank's ammonia has been between .5 and 2 ppm all 4 days. Today I did about a 40% water change and that brought the ammonia down to .5ppm. I'm just going to test every day and and try and keep the ammonia levels at or below 1ppm with partial water changes. I am using the API Freshwater Master Kit. So far so good!


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## xxrockyhorrorsxx (Sep 27, 2011)

Kehy said:


> Yes, testing kits are a great investment-if you get a liquid kit. the strips tend to be wildly inaccurate.
> 
> I'm guessing the reason why it was only the new fish dying is that they wouldn't have been used to the chemicals in the water during cycling, which your previous fish would have had a chance to build up to. Still, no slacking on maintenance, fish are very fragile during cycling, even hardy ones. Also, don't add new fish while cycling and once you finally get through your cycle, be sure to acclimate new fish properly. There's a couple of threads on here about that.


It's been 72 hours and 2 of new tetras I bought are still alive. So I currently have 2 new tetras, the 2 older tetras, a daino, and a pleco. To my knowledge I acclimate the fish pretty well (unless people have other suggestions). I take the bag of fish, and roll the top of the bag down so it floats in the tank. Then every 30mins I add half a cup of the aquarium water to the bag and repeat for a couple of hours. After this I release them into the tank. Does anyone suggest a better method?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

xxrockyhorrorsxx said:


> To my knowledge I acclimate the fish pretty well (unless people have other suggestions). I take the bag of fish, and roll the top of the bag down so it floats in the tank. Then every 30mins I add half a cup of the aquarium water to the bag and repeat for a couple of hours. After this I release them into the tank. Does anyone suggest a better method?


Your method works better than nothing. Drip acclimation is the best method. Takes just a little bit to set up and get going, but worth it. There is a sticky thread in the general section that explains how to do it, with pics.


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## xxrockyhorrorsxx (Sep 27, 2011)

OKAY! so...my husband emailed me while I was at work, and another one of my new tetras died. So..that leaves the 2 pre-existing tetras, one new tetra, the danio and the pleco.

I have noticed that the danio chases and bullies the little tetras. Is it possible he's killing them? I have lost 2 tetras COMPLETELY..and the tetras my husband and I found were missing tails/fins/other parts.. Is it safe to assume he's the culprit?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Possibly. A fish can decay very fast and dead fish get picked at quite a bit.

What are your readings for ammonia and nitrites? If they are Neon Tetras, they aren't the most sturdy fish for tanks that are having ammonia issues.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Danio's are the "jocks" of the fish tanks. They need a school to be happy and this will also help them to keep the 'chasing and nipping' to themselves - although, even in a school, if they get bored they will chase other fish.

Yep, a fish can disappear fast! Once a fish dies, a pleco will eat it, but it won't actively go out and kill a fish.


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## xxrockyhorrorsxx (Sep 27, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Possibly. A fish can decay very fast and dead fish get picked at quite a bit.
> 
> What are your readings for ammonia and nitrites? If they are Neon Tetras, they aren't the most sturdy fish for tanks that are having ammonia issues.




I went out and bought a water test kit yesterday and I'm so proud of myself! hehe, when I tested all of the water, all of my readings were spot on. Ammonia was reading 0ppm, I can't remember what the nitrites read 0 as well.

I scooped the danio out and put him in a bowl just in case he has been attcking the other fish.


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## HK40 (Sep 14, 2011)

just wanted to give an update on the tank. nitrites where getting out of control and I was getting worried about my fish in there. added some tetra safe start and it balanced out the tank. woot! Thanks for everyone's help, I know the cycle was close to the end but I just didn't want to lose any fish. oh got a plectos, how often do I feed them?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

What kind of pleco? The common pleco (the one sold most often in stores) can get up to 18" long... As for feeding, they'll eat some algae, but will eat other stuff on the bottom. Some types also need driftwood to gnaw on.


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