# a goldfish Trauma



## TwilightTheTreeFrog

After my 9 year old son pestering me for a fish tank for ages, his birthday came and i reluctantly gave into his whims to buy a tank from a local hardware storein hindsight it was a particuarly poor choice, but.in my childhood i has goldfish in a goldfish bowl, with tap water...they lived for ages..i mean how hard could it be?...Well, a trip to the pet shop semi prepared me with the comments "you need to have your tank set up for 4 days" and "have you got tap safe"...a full onslaught was made on the web to make sure this new tank was set up correctly...i added bacteria, dechlorinated the water set it all up and running for over a week (which was over the 4 days recommended by the pet shop) and then off we went to get our fishes...we were very aware of the amount of fish to water you could have in the tank after reading it up online, and so as we had 3 children who were desperate for 3 fish, we tried to choose the smallest we could for now, with a view to enlarging/upgrading the tank if necessary. we chose 3 fantail fancy goldfish. they came home and settled in with no trauma..the kids took turns in feeding them, and for a week and a half they seemed happy..then one started hiding in spongebobs pineapple house...we thought it was quirky...until we realised a day or 2 on that it may be swim bladder...the next day Wishy the fishy had gone to fishy heaven. sadly Rosalie the fishy seemed to take to the pineapple house then too...oh no...alarm bells triggered...i tried popping a shelled pea in the water as suggested by some sites, but Rosalie would not eat. we visited 2 local stores..online it said to starve them, but both the aquatic centres shook their heads...one said feed bloodworm (which they didn't have), or treat with swim bladder treatment...the other said no bloodworm, just swim bladder treatment, normal food, and to try a new filter, which i bought. ...i had a new tank maturing for aquatic frogs, which i told them, and i asked if it was worth swapping them to the new tank...the shop owner said to try the filter 1st but if they hadn't livened up in a few hours then it may be worth swapping them over (exactly as i had when we bought them with the bag...he even supplied a bag for me) i went away feeling positive...we tried the filter, but for the tank they were in, it seemed to vigorous and they seemed very unhappy...there was no improvement in Rosalie's symptoms. at 4 am the following morning after sleeplessy worrying about the fishies, i decided to move the new tank ready for transition, in a last bid to save their lives. 2 hours later we were moving them onto their new home, but Rosalie seemed so weak and after the 1st inlet of new tank water into the bag, sadly she died. Anakin our last remaining fishy made it through though and seemed to show no signs that the other 2 had shown of swim bladder...instead, yesterday he spent the day swimming up and down the tank from top to bottom relentlessy. i expected him to be dead today from burn out, but in stark contrast he sits in a corner at the bottom, and he had white spots which i googled and then went to the pet shop about and i have been given white spot treatment for him. I've cared for many animals in my 39 years..i have 6 cats, 5 huskies and 2 tree frogs..i've had bunnies, mice, pig nosed turtles and hamsters in the past, but never ever have i experienced so much contradictory advice about the care of a small creature, and never have i felt so helpless and lost about what to do. i'm hoping that there might be someone on this site who can give me any words of wisdom to help...i know i've been pretty clueless so far, but i have to live with my sobbing children each time a fishy dies so any help would be much appreciated...if anyone knows anything else i csn do to save the last little fishy, please help....


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## glassbird

Hmmm..ok...first, how big is the tank, and what brand and model filter do you have? Second, I am going to suggest that you not ask for any more advice from your local fish stores. They are primarily interested in selling you stuff (stuff you probably do not need). Did any of them suggest buying a set of drop-type water test kits? Because that alone is (in my opinion) the most important bit of equipment you can buy.

Before you get any more fish, do a search here for information on the nitrogen cycle...the process that develops the beneficial bacteria in your tank that converts ammonia from fish food and waste into less toxic material. A solid understanding of this cycle will save you a lot of stress and tears and fish deaths. And the test kits that I mentioned above are crucial to knowing what is going on in your tank during this cycle.

I suspect that what happened here was the classic situation of too may fish in an uncycled tank, probably too small. I think every new fish owner has started this way...badly. And to some large degree, it is due to bad advice from the petstores. Adding bottled bacteria rarely does any good at all. Running a tank empty for a week does very little good (except to let gasses dissipate and the temperature settle). It is possible to cycle a tank (meaning "develop the good bacteria") with out any fish at all, but that takes time and requires patience...something you may have very little of in a house with multiple children!

For now, read up on the nitrogen cycle, look into getting a MUCH bigger tank, and learn everything you can about partial water changes and how to test your water. Do a partial water change right away, of about 50%, and be sure to add chlorine remover and match the water temperature. That will help to remove some of the toxic substances that have built up in the water. Be prepared to do another 50% water change every day for a while! Your last remaining fish is sick and stressed, but good, clean water will be the best medicine for him. Get the test kit ASAP...I reccomend the API master test kit. DO NOT get strips...they are highly inaccurate, and more expensive.


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

Thank you for your advice...no at no point did anyone mention a tester kit, however i did glean this from reading up on the nitrogen cycle which you have mentioned and have ordered one online...i shall however pop to the pet shop today and see if they have one...however i am very reluctant to line their pockets with any more cash!! the initial tank my son bought was only 11 litres, the tank i now have the last remaining fish in is 21 litres, but i have ordered a 65 litre tank which i was hoping to keep an aquatic frog in. i'm really quite appaulled by the pet shops, but reading online the advice that you get if you google a question is often contradictory dependant on where you read it, it is all very confusing trying to know what is the right thing to do...i'm flying blind here unfortunately, i can't believe my goldfish in their bowl with tap water 20 odd years agi lived as long as they did and here i am struggling to keep one alive with modern technology...the aquatic turtle i kept years ago was a breeze in relation to these little fish, infact he lived 17 years with us and ended up growing so big we donated him to our nearest zoo so he could swim in their huge turtle enclosure ...anyway back to my fishy...is it right to do the water changes as the water that is in has the medication in for the white spot...will this make his condition worse, should i add more medication then and will the water changes help with the nitrogen cycle? it's 4am and i can't sleep at all for worrying about all this..i can now see why there are so many used fish tanks for sale on ebay lol!!! thanks for any help.


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## bolram

It will depend on what medication (as in brand) you got, i tend to wait 3 or 4 days after medicating then do a water change. I leave it for a day or 2 and if there is no signs of improvement re-dose with medication. Do not just keep dosing and dosing every couple of days as that will actually do more harm than good.


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

thanks bolram...do you recommend doing the 50% water changes then daily as the previous reply did?


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## bolram

I'd say just do a smaller partial change for now anything upto 25% this will still leave traces of the medication in the water but not high levels so will allow time to settle and possibly aid the fish. Then wait 2 days (thats what id do personally) then do a slightly larger water change anything between 30-40%. This will in excess help flush the tank a bit. After 24 hours i assess the fish and see if there is any improvement if not i will do 20% water changes every day for upto 3-4days depending on how bad the fish is. 

So that usually takes you upto a week (7ish days) if there still isnt any improvement at this stage do a partial dosing of medication so if it says add 5ml of medication to every 20litres only put in 1 or 2ml.(most medication needs dissolving in warm water first) even if it doesnt say it try doing it, so for every 10ml of medication use 1litre of warm water and give a good stir and leave for a couple of minutes then stir again then add to the tank (simple i know but its one step ive known people to forget lol) 

Alot of medications have harsh chemicals in them so adding it straight to the tank would be like you dipping your hand in pure bleach for hours (even a couple of seconds irritate my skin haha). Hence why do not keep adding a dose every day or two as it will cause so much more harm to the fish, also the reason only do a much smaller doseage a week later. 

If there is no change after 24-48 hours keep up with anything upto 25% daily water changes for a further week. Some fish just need time and adjustment so can take a while before improvement is seen so do not be down heartened if he does not look any better over the next week. One of my fish took nearly 3 weeks before he showed improvement (he was to the point for days that i considered a form of euthanasia as it was hard watching him suffer) but i waited and im glad i did.


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

thank you...i will follow your advise and let you know how he does...how long can they not eat for, because he is showing no signs of wanting to eat at all and i don't think he ate yesterday and maybe not for the day before that either


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## bolram

You'd be surprised really how long they can go without food. It differs with every individual fish some could go days some a week or two. If he hasnt touched any of the food for an hour remove it as it will begin to rot and again cause potential short term effects. Fish eat organisms (bacteria and alike) that are so small we cant see them that live in tanks. When he is ready to eat he will do so again just be patient i have experienced the same anxiety of "oh he's not eating what do i do?". Pet stores,yes some are good on advice, but at the end of the day they need to make a living of selling you this, that and the other most of which is not even needed. Don't panic and i wouldnt buy anything else unless really needed.

I currently have a fish in a quarantine tank that has some sort of fungus infection and have followed what i have said above (although this time with less water changes, i wanted to test different methods of isolation cures ive seen) although using the same dosing method as stated. He's been in there 4 days and already seen so much improvement in appetite and appearance.

Just thought id ask do you have an air circulation either on the filter to make the air bubbles or an air pump? Increased aeration will help speed the recovery along and makes the medication 10x more effective.


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## bolram

Oh just thought id add please whatever you do, do NOT add any more fish at the moment. Say he improved and was well again in 7 days time, do NOT add any fish for a further 3 weeks after full improvement is shown. This is to ensure the fish doesnt have a secondary infection which may take a week or two to show signs of, and also just allows time for him to heal fully and adapt (also in this time will allow your tank to cycle)


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

thanks again, i have printed off your advice and already done the 20% water change this morning. i will definitely not put any more fish in until he is very well again, we can wait, we just want him to pull through. the filter i have has a tube which goes down into the water, the water is then passed through a chamber which has some black platic funny looking balls in, then another chamber with charcoal wrapped in a type of mesh wool stuff, then airation stones...then it runs back into the tank. it came as part of the tank i bought. i do have a seperate thing that blows bubbles which was in the first tiny tank i bought labelled as a filter (which the pet shop says it was not), but it suckers to the bottom of the tank, has an airline into it, and what seems like little stones at the bottom with a thick sponge layer above it and then the bubbles come out the top...should i put this in the tank as well...my hubby suggested it, but i know goldfish don't like a strong current, so once again i was not sure whether to or not?


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## bolram

Keep us updated on the progress, fish loss is never good so lets hope it works. As long as its getting air through some sort of 'bubbles' or water surface agitation then you should be fine

I have no idea what that is? Do you have a picture or the product name?


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

hi, no it didn't came boxed, just as part of the "complete" tank set up my son bought...all it says on it is "aquarium air pump sk-9102 Layal" i will try and post a pic of it from when i took a picture of his little tank for him last week..it's the thing that's making the bubbles in the right hand corner if i can manage it lol...aww...poor little fishies..i feel like i murdered them :-(


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

the only way i could see of adding a picture was to do it as my profile pic..not sure if that shows up now? will let you know how he does, thanks x


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## bolram

if its a little black box then i just googled it lol, thats just an air pump so circulates air and thats about it. You can buy suitable inexpensive filters for gold fish, such as sponge filters, which you attach to the air pump with air line tubing and it filters as well as aerates the tank. They are perfect and in the UK we can get hold of them for like £5 so should be cheap wherever.

My personal suggestion would be to get a sponge filter, the tubing, non return valves, a tetra tec air pump (can also be picked up fairly cheap but are great air pump and quiet). Just use the tubing and and non return valves (so water doesnt get into the air pump as you need to make sure it is kept away from water lol ive seen people put it to near and water got into it, not a pretty sight) and connect the tubes from the air pump to the sponge filter. Then you have both the filtration you need and the aeration, your fish will appreciate you for it. Then if you upgrade your tank you can always use the 3 way connectors and split the tubing to allow more filtration or air stones (i tend to go one or two air pumps up than required in case i ever upgrade plus ensures maximum efficiency)


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## glassbird

I am glad to see that bolram helped you with your ick questions, because I treat ick with salt and raised temps, and have no experience with medications for that problem.

If I am doing the math right, your original tank was about 3 gallons...WAY to small for even one goldfish, nevermind three. And if I am reading your posts right, it only came with a built in, air-driven "filter"? That, in no way, will do the job. I love goldfish, they are all I have for fish, but they produce a lot of waste for their size and absolutely need a serious filter, and more water per fish than many other types. Even your 65 litre is only about 17 gallons...barely sufficient for 2 goldfish IF you get a MUCH better filter on it. And you will need a bigger tank than that in a year or two as they grow. 

A sponge filter in the small tank will be better than what you have now, but you need to get a "hang-on-back" filter ASAP for the bigger one. I will be very interested to see what your test results are.


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

hi both, thanks again or all your help. yes, the 11L tank was in no way big enough,hindsight is a wonderful thing... but being gullible and clueless i believed the label on the set up which said it was suitable for goldfish.. and that in fact the air pump was a filter...they really should not be allowed to sell them as such, i will be trying to get hold of the company to give them a piece of my mind. god knows how many others are duped into buying this set up, and how many poor fishies meet their maker this way :-( the 21 litre tank as i said previously had not been intended for fish, but frogs, so the sixing on this for these tiny frogs was fine. if however i can manage to keep the last remaining fishy alive then he can keep the tank , and if he needs a bigger tank in time, i will happily buy him one, he is very tiny currently about 2 cm long including his tail. by the way....anybody need any help with huskies, cats and frogs...i'm your girl...not quite so clueless with them lol....everyone please say a prayer for my last remaining fishy.


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## bolram

You are right how companies mislead us into thinking something is suitable for something that it actually is not. Its darn annoying to be honest especially as a lot of people will believe what they read just because it has a 'brand' name on it. But as you have seen we all learn from our mistakes.

He's pretty tiny then, you tend to measure the fish from head to the base of tail so no tail included meaning he is so small. How long has he been in the tank now? A lot of people say the if they survive the 1st week then they have high chances of lasting the distance so to speak. Just keep up the maintaining of water conditions and he should hopefully improve over time


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

yes, we chose the tiniest ones because of the tiny tank lol! he was the smallest of the 3. they were all on the old tank about 10 days, and then the pet shop gave me all the "advice" for the swim bladder and suggested the move to the bigger tank which was last thurs, and i moved them over on Friday morning, but one didn't make the transition...he is so small you have to look for him, but very very sweet....my son asked if there any teeny weeny type of fish at all he can keep in the tiny 11L tank?


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

oh, and the layal pump, did come attached to tubing with what they were labelling as a filter with what looks like stones in the base , with a blue sponge on top, looks a bit like a rocket shape with the bubbles coming out of the top...is this actually a filter as the man in the pet shop said he didn't think so and sold me a fluval one for £15 instead?


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## bolram

Small fish are so cute and its more rewarding to watch them grow up, if you buy them mature you dont get the full feeling from it i tend to find.

If its 11gl then you have so much options if you are going to stay coldwater then you still have a fair few options or if you want coldwater but perhaps want to transition into tropical at a latr date then you also have some options of fish that can be adapted to both conditions.

Most danios will be suited, zebra danios or leopard danios depending how your stockist sell them as, white cloud minnows some platy can be put in both just research them first though. Those 3 stay fairly small and you could get a good 6-7 of them in an 11gl (particularly the minnows or smaller variety danios). The benefit of them are is that they are hardy fish because you can use them in both cold and tropical conditions they are more hardy to newer tanks and if you ever upgraded tanks and wanted tropical you can acclimatise them to the new heat. They are also active swimmers so would be great to watch for yourself and your kids


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## bolram

TwilightTheTreeFrog said:


> oh, and the layal pump, did come attached to tubing with what they were labelling as a filter with what looks like stones in the base , with a blue sponge on top, looks a bit like a rocket shape with the bubbles coming out of the top...is this actually a filter as the man in the pet shop said he didn't think so and sold me a fluval one for £15 instead?


It sounds like you have an added 'box filter' so yes it is a filter, but for the purpose you want it for it is definitely not enough filtration, i would keep it attached to the airpump and running in the tank along with the fluval though as it is added filtration, they are not really that effective for fish but are more ideal for things like shrimp or snails


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## glassbird

Bolram is right...sounds like an air-driven box filter. VERY inadaquate...barely better than nothing at all. Very outdated technology. I suspect the manufacturer threw it in so they could say "complete, filter included!" on the box. Well, there are filters, and there are filters...

Any test results yet? Are you keeping up with water changes every day? How is the fish looking? Is he still in the 11 litre, or did he get moved up?


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

hi, sadly the little fishy didn't make it. he was in the larger tank, and i tried putting in an aeration pump as well as the filter system as the lady in the pet shop suggested not enough oxygen was in there. i kept up the water changes and put a tiny amount of tonic salt in under the recommendation once again of the pet shop, but he was so poorly he didn't make it. the pet shop didn't have a complete testing kit just lots of different little ones to test everything individually at £10 each, and the one i ordered online will no doubt ironically turn up today as Royal Mail are sooo slooooww!!
i am very thankful for all the help you have given me on this site, it has been super.i think however i will stick to what i know about from now on though, and we will give the fishies a miss, and just have frogs from now on...thanks again for all your help...if i do embark on another fishy adventure, i will be back for help BEFORE adding any fish to my tank xxx


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## bolram

Oh no that is not good news. Sorry to hear he didnt make it. If you do ever need some help be sure to ask


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

hiya, as predicted the test set turned up today..just out of curiosity i did a test on the tank (2 hrs after i turned everything off, so i don't know how much that affects it?) but these were the results it came up with...there was no ammonia test in there which i didn't relaise, so i have ordered one of those today for future use when setting up my 65 litre tank which arrived today....anyhow...these are the numbers...tey probably mean a lot more to you than me..NO3=10.25 , NO2=1, GH= 16, KH =6, PH=7.6, CL=0
?? from what i could tell reading through the leaflet etc, it didn't "seem" to bad, but obviously i don't have an ammonia result which probably was the critical one...?


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## bolram

A good reading would should 0 0 <20 or there abouts that being ammonia, nitrites, nitrates. As long as ammonia and nitrites stay low preferably 0 then it is perfect conditions for fish (if they rise then you know its water change time) Also as it was newly setup the tank would be cycling meaning all your readings are higher than they normally would be. Once the filter has established and bacteria colonies built then everything balances out and your tank is cycled (takes around 4 weeks for a cycle to happen at least)

Some fish withstand the cycling levels, guppies are great cycling fish as they can be hardy, also zebra danios.


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

yes, i ggogled the danios and i quite like them...i will start all over again, and in a good few weeks i will have a look in the aquarium shop to see what they have available..i may well pester you again soon!! thanks again


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## bolram

Im pleased to see you are not going to give up so easily 

Also look into white cloud minnows i think they look cool (thy are also pretty hardy fish) if you have a pets at home near you i know they tend to stock them


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## TwilightTheTreeFrog

yes, i will do...i'm cleaning out the tanks at the moment. i'm concerned about making sure none of the white spot disease stays on anything. i googled cleaning after white spot and one person said really hot water on everything, i don't hink i can use a detergant can i? another said to use the tonic salts to clean, so currently i have everything that was connected to the fish soaking in a bowl which had boiling hot water and a teaspoon of salt it in...i will obviously rinse it all really well etc..is there anything else i should do now before setting the tanks up. the 65 litre one i haven't salted as it never came into contact with the fish. any suggestions?


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## bolram

You are doing pretty much everything you need to. Just fill the tank up with warm water and add the salt and leave to stand for a couple of days then rinse out thoroughly. I wouldnt use any household detergents or bleach (although it has been known for people to use them effectively but i wouldnt risk it lol)


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## Big Dog

Hello and Welcome to the forum.


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