# Possible Columnaris - Timeline, diagnosis, possible treatment



## Threnjen

Since in the other thread I was discussing my possible columnaris outbreak, I wanted get more input.

Please, can you help me confirm or diagnose (and save) my fish? I'm so afraid for them.

Here's my story. I am keeping it as succint as I can while providing details. Sorry it's long.

On Dec 5 (Thursday)
I noticed that one of my cories had a strange white patch on his forehead. We'll call him Cory 1.








I realized at that time that my cories had also been less active for the few days prior and I had noticed them spending a lot of time huddling in the corner, rather than their standard scavenging behavior.

On Dec 6 (Fri)
on wake up, Cory 2 was dead (not cory 1). Cory 2 had no white spots. He had a red belly that appeared to be ruptured. His fins were shredded. However since he died in the night, unsure if this was post-mortem. 


I took the remains of Cory 2, photos of Cory 1, and photos of huddling cories to LFS. 








LFS guy assessed tankmates and blamed the White Fin Tetras for undercover harassment. As I'd seen the tetras often hovering over
the cories at the bottom of the tank, this seemed (and still seems) likely. Assigned husband to observe the tank under night lights from several feet away to assess tetra behavior. He confirmed that after a few minutes and when they didn't realize husband was watching, the tetras began to nip and harass the cories.


I went home and removed all the tetras. While at home I noticed that Cory 3 had a white spots on his head. Not as big as Cory 1. Took the White Fin Tetras to the LFS. Also purchased a quarantine tank for the sick cories and Tetra Lifeguard+










When I got home from the LFS the second time, Cory 4 was dead. Cory 4 had no white spots. Cory 4 had an area of his side that was red. A bit of pink fluid leaked from this spot on the paper towel where I placed his body.

I quarantined Cory 1 and Cory 3 in a hospital tank. They were the only cories to still show behavioral or physical symptoms. Administered first treatment of Lifeguard+

That evening, Cory 3 crashed. I eventually euthanized him.

On Dec 7 (Sat)-Dec 9 (Mon) 
Cory 1 survived but worsened.
His white sore became larger, becoming like a chunk out of his head. His right eye (near the sore) bugged out grotesquely.
Monday evening, I bought some Maracyn 2 and began administering.










Dec 11 (Wed)
I noticed that fish in the main aquarum have white growths/tufts on their mouths.
Fish behavior is normal.

Cory 1 still survives and has been improving on MAracyn 2. Today his eye is no longer bugging out, although his sore patch is larger and still looks awful.

I have ordered Triple Sulfa from the link provided by Jman in the other thread.

Following are pictures of main aquarium fish with tufty mouths. I've done my best, but they rarely hold still and I'm no expert at macro photography.









































Please, help me save my fish.


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## jrman83

Look at my avatar...huddling Corys is a normal behavior for them. However, in the pic the one off to the right with clamped fins doesn't look healthy.

Aside from the blemishes you noted on the Cory, I would not necessarily say anything was wrong with any of your other fish...appearance-wise. It would not be enough for me to react anyway. Others may feel different.

Although you may have some fish that look like they have Columnaris symptoms, I wouldn't know enough about it to say you had it in your tank or not. The only one time I was sure I had it in my tank I lost 15-20 in less than one day and lost about 50 in 7 days.


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## Threnjen

What do you suppose could be causing the various white tufts at their mouths? This is new.

Hubby also observed this evening that one of the cardinals has a small tufty spot on his side.

I'm concerned about not treating it and being too late to save my fish.

I am also concerned about DOING the treatment and killing my biological filter and killing even more fish that way.


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## jrman83

If you are seeing more signs, treat. Personally, I wouldn't care about my biological filter. They do make meds that don't affect it, although the more potent ones will kill it and some of your plants as well - if you have them. The med I used wiped out my bio-filter. Saw slightly cloudy water one day and that was it.


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## Threnjen

Are you saying the biological filter will resolve itself after a mini cycle? Or are you saying you just thought treatment was more important than worrying about it?

I was thinking I could keep a filter alive-ish for when the meds are done. When I got my used 90g the person gave me an inadequate HOB, it's a Marineland Penguin 200. I could put in as much of my filter media as possible, hang it on a 5g bucket, and dose it with ammonia every day to keep it alive.


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## Threnjen

Cory 1 has just died.
I was certain he was improving today.
I feel so dejected.


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## Threnjen

What would you recommend for sterilizing the 10gal hospital tank now that it is empty of fish?
Bleach solution, then rinse fill rinse fill repeat repeat prime?
I'll just throw away the gravel and the pads. So nothing porous left in there. The pads were cycled from my main tank, but they are infected anyway.


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## sharkettelaw

you mentioned your fish were extremely stressed from the bullying...that is most likely how they got sick. when a fish is stressed, it weakens their immunity system and no matter how clean the water is, they will sometimes pick up a disease.

in one of the pics you provided there was an arrow pointing just before the dorsal fin..that to me confirmed it was coloumnaris as well as the fast deaths of the fish...the thing is about coloumnaris is that when fish contract it, they dont really behave like sick fish so by the time one realises something is wrong, its usually too late.

sorry about your fish though, i was devastated when it happened to me and lost all my rare breed guppies..i'd say that next to dropsy, coloumnaris has to be the worst thing fish can get..if your tanks are fishless i'd recommened bleaching the tanks and rinsing them out several times and leave them to dry out for several days


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## Threnjen

Stupid White Fin Tetras... of ALL the fish I imagined they could pick on, I would NEVER have guessed the cories.

Well. The meds are on order. It cost me a small fortune to get them overnight. But it's worth it to me to try.

I'm still not clear what is going to happen to my biological filter. I've read that the Triple Sulfa is going to wipe everything out. What will happen? Will it be a mini-cycle or will it resolve?
Will I need to do WCs every day before dosing the day's meds?

Just in case, I started a new fishless cycle (with all new media) with that Marineland Penguin 200 HOB that I had sitting around. I figure even if I don't need it, it won't hurt to have a cycled filter sitting around.

I'm so sorry that you guys have had this before and had so many losses. If the next few days go as badly as I fear I'm going to be devastated.

Wish me luck.


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## Threnjen

What if I hook the sump up to itself (bypassing the main tank) and treat the sump with solely a gram-negative treatment, while I treat the main tank with the TMP sulfa?

This should get rid of any of the bacteria clinging in the sump, without killing off my BB filter.

However during this time... my main tank won't have a filter at all!! For 10 days!! That is terrifying =/


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## jrman83

Whatever tank the fish are in while treating, you will definitely need flow/filtration. It will be important for the water to continue to circulate.

I think the bio-filter is something you should be concerned about, but not really worry over it. It happens. You will just need to watch feeding levels as it re-establishes itself. It will not be starting over, but it may last more than a mini-cycle would. So you can get spikes in ammonia, etc. Doesn't mean you will.


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## Threnjen

Just an update. On day 2 of the treatment. No ammonia spikes yet, I am watching closely.

No new fish have died. Either it's not columnaris, or I caught the tank infection very early and it's still in a treatable stage. It doesn't discount all the cory deaths from last week, nor all of the exhibited symptoms on the other fish, so it's still kind of a mystery. But I am counting my blessings and hoping that the TMP Sulfa is treating whatever it is that everyone has.


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## sharkettelaw

im pretty certain it's coloumnaris..you most likely caught it in the early stages..im almost green with envy because i had nobody to tell me what on earth was happening. All my livebearers (over 100) died before i knew something was wrong and what was happening. they never exhibited any symptoms because the majority had the internal strain will others did have the external strain and i thought nothing of it. the only thing i did find strange was so many fish dying per day..only after they all died did i freak out and panic and google it. i came across a site (dont even remember the name) that described it as coloumnaris and i was like, what the f### is that? and now, i do nearly everything to prevent it. for one, if a petshop looks dodgy i wont buy there, two i do water changes on the majority of my tanks twice a week..i made the mistake of supporting a dodgy looking pet store - never again


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## jrman83

Let us know how the med works? Do you have snails or plants? Just curious if it affects them or not. What is the treatment period?


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## Threnjen

Just an update.
Today will be day 5 of meds, although I haven't dosed today's yet. 10 days of treatment total.

The meds are not getting along well with my plants, but there's nothing to be done about that. I did move one Crypt Wendtii to my 10g because it was in particular distress and losing leaves at a high rate. Some of the other plants don't look so hot, but oh well.

I do have 6 mystery snails and I have been watching them closely and they seem ok? But I keep having this "feeling" like something is not quite right with them. I have attempted research to determine if the TMP Sulfa is toxic to them and come up emptyhanded in either direction.

I wish I could remove them to the 10g, but it is not cycled. With the amount of poop they produce I would worry about the water quality (there is a single mystery fry in that tank -a story I haven't even told you guys - so his safety is high on my priority list)
I'm currently fishless cycling a filter which is on a 5g bucket, but it's not ready yet. I only started that at the same time as the meds, so it will be a while yet. I'm anxious to get some filter media from that bucket to move to the 10g tank but until I can do that, the 10g can't really accommodate much of anything except its lone fry.


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## sharkettelaw

a lot of meds contain certain chemicals which are not favourable to mystery snails...an uncycled tank is a better option than to keep them in a tank being medicated. you probably had a mystery snail die in your tank? the smell is awful and that is while its still in the tank, out the tank it is 10 times worse..so i'd recommend moving them


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## Threnjen

I realized that, in moving over the Crypt Wendtii, I have already contaminated the 10g tank with water/material from the main tank.

So if the 10g is going to get infected... it's going to get infected (and then our fry will probably die, so sad)

With this in mind - already contaminated - I could go ahead and move some filter media from the main tank to the 10g. 
I was avoiding this before due to cross-contamination, but that ship has sailed.

If I can move some media I'll be less annoyed to move the snails. There will at least be some filtration available.


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## jrman83

Call the place you bought the meds from. They should be able to tell you if it will kill inverts. If they say it does, ask them why they can't include that little tidbit in their description. They will talk to you and are very helpful.


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## Threnjen

K, will do.
The actual meds jar, however, says do not use in Planted tanks or with Inverts.
It did not say this on the website, I went back and checked after I got the jar.
Does "bad for inverts" mean all inverts or could that just imply shrimp, etc?
Whatever, I will just call.


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## Threnjen

I called and they said yes I should move the snails, but to be honest I got the feeling it was a "general" yes as opposed to a "specific" yes. To quote "it seems to be a good idea". Not like, "yes x x and x ingredients in TMP Sulfa are known to have a toxic effect on mystery snails"


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## coralbandit

Moving the snails should be no big deal,even into an uncycled tank.Simple water changes will be fine for them(50% of a 10g is only 5g).Snails ,shrimp and the pest you are trying to kill are inverts.As is often the case with "good meds" no invert is "safe".Some resist the effects of the meds better,but you have to look at it biologically.The higher(more complex) the life form the better it's resistance to the meds will be in general.Most will probly think a snail is pretty low on the complex life line,but the meds you are using as specifically designed to kill simple parasites.A snail is significantly higher then that.
That being said,surviving the meds and living a full/healthy life are two different things.Some fish survive ammonia and nitrites without much noticable issue.Most due not live healthy full term lives though.
I'd move the snails ASAP!


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## jrman83

Well, at least they will talk to you. It may be their standard answer. The thing about these meds is they are pharmaceutical grade, not like the stuff you buy in the store. I used an anti-biotic of theirs and it wiped out some of my plants. Not noticeably at first but slowly after they just started coming apart.


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## Threnjen

Yeah, some of my plants are faring visibly poorly.

I did move the snails. I feel a little bad because they only get the run of 6g of the 10g tank and they are so big. It feels so cramped for them. But it's better than them dying, and it's only for a few more days.

I ended up adding some filter material from the main tank. Like I said before, the 10g is already contaminated due to moving the plants. I wasn't sure about this decision, but what's done is done.


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## Threnjen

Well I'm already doubting my decision. A few hours and ammonia is up to .25 in the 10g.

I have to keep the fry in there alive, I'm going to be doing 4 water changes a day at this rate =|
Isn't there some level of prime I can add to detoxify ammonia between WC?


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## Threnjen

Update for the main tank, with the columnaris. One of the cories is looking distinctly unwell this evening. He has a section of sunken pink on his side/belly behind one of his side fins, seems to have trouble swimming well, and is breathing very heavily. I also think I saw him flashing on wood quite a bit. None of these are columnaris symptoms. Now what? Something new? I got it wrong?? Errgh. I think he will be dead by morning.

Someone, somewhere, has produced a white poop. Who? I don't know. It is not stringy or unusual in size or shape - just white. Otherwise normal.

Edit: I actually can't find the sick cory right now. That seems bad. Been looking for hours.


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## coralbandit

Unfortunately meds are sometimes the "the straw that brakes the camels back" for sick fish.As for other symptoms many times once an infection sets in secondary issues arise.Many miss the first signs and misdiagnose only seeing the secondary infection.I would stick with first diagnosis and watch the other fish closely.Sorry about your cory.


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## Threnjen

Sick looking cory still missing. Quite frustrating as the tank has hardly any spots that I can't see from some vantage. I don't know where a fish could die out of my line of sight.


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## coralbandit

Stir things up and move things if necessary.I've had more than few fish seemingly disappear only to show up days later(dead).some infections(like ich) get a real boost from dead fish so finding it is fairly important.


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## Threnjen

my beloved fry just died, in the divided 10g where I put the snails. I should have let them take their chances. 
so depressed right now. plus I still need to go hunting for the cory.


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## Threnjen

found the cory
And then there were four...
It hurts my heart, the cories are my favorite fish. Figures, right?
Well, them and the lone fry  /tears


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## Threnjen

All right, been a few more days.
No additional deaths.
The four remaining cories all seem just fine and have no redness. Their behavior is good.
The other fish are all behaving fine, but that's business as usual with them. One of the boesemani's still has a puffy white upper lip. I'm thinking though it's actually the skin of his lip as it no longer appears to be a growth (it DID before, and lots of the fish had mouth puffs, which are gone). Do boesemanis fight with their mouths? The boys argue with each other a lot.

Dwarf cories - we started with 7 and they have never had problems. However in the 10 days I have been dosing meds I'm now acutely aware that there are only six dwarfs in the tank.
Wonder if this could have spurred the whole problem - fish dies in tank unnoticed.

There is definitely no body at this point. We did a full canvass looking for the dead cory. If a dwarf died, it was a long time ago.

Plant report: Most of them are doing all right. I think it took out the crypts, but nothing else. a lot of my plants even have new growth. There is one I might be mistaken about - the Green Cabomba is looking pretty bad. Overall I have:
Anubias 
Bacopa
Cabomba Caroliniana
Cryptocoryne Undulata
Cryptocoryne Wendtii
Amazon sword
Water Wisteria
Ludwigia Repens
Dwarf saggitaria 

Again, the crypts have not fared well, and maybe the Cabomba, but all others are fine.


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## Threnjen

Some notes for today.

Throughout this process of medicating, I've been having very minor trouble keeping my biological filter on tops of things (due to the meds denting it). Every so often I've had an ammonia reading of .25 (not even every day). I've been doing WC every day (50%) anyway because of the meds, so although I've been testing and occasionally have a slight reading, I haven't let it stress me out too much.

This is where my rampant spreadsheeting comes in handy...

The cory that died out of nowhere, a few days back - the day before it died, AND the day it died, the ammonia was at .25 (yes there was a WC in there, it just went back up to .25 over 24 hrs)
Today my test read .25, and I only a few hours later had time to perform the WC. I have another cory who is behaving EXACTLY like the one that died a few days ago. Breathing very heavily, erratic weak swimming, belly is a bit reddened under & behind the side fins, locked back dorsal fin. I worry and expect he might die shortly.

In conclusion - the last cory's death, and possibly this one (don't die little cory!!) could actually be due to ammonia posoning rather than the columnaris.

I'm not saying the initial deaths of my whole story were due to ammonia. I have never had ammonia or nitrite in my tank until administering the meds that could impact the bio filter.


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## jrman83

Usually low levels of ammonia will not harm unless it is persistent.


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## Threnjen

That's unfortunate, because I like to have answers.

I am guessing the cory is within an hour of death. I just went back to check on it and it had its body and tail curled in and its dorsal fin clamped down. Even as I watched it crashed for a moment on its side on the bottom, then got back up.

I netted it out to my HOB isolation box on the back of the tank just so when it dies, I can find it. I don't think I can do anything else for it right now. It didn't even try to get away or resist when I netted it.


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## Threnjen

And, dead.

this one was also bloated, and has a weird shiny purplish/whitish patch on his belly. The picture does not show it very well, but it's that area that seems more grey than the rest of his body.


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## Threnjen

A couple more, showing the belly discoloration more clearly. I flipped the fish over and the other side has a lot of redness, in addition to the greyish/whitish/purplish patch on the bottom.


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## Threnjen

All right. I got some answers today. Not specific ones unfortunately, but now I know how the sickness was brought in.

The dwarf cories that I mentioned were the last to be added to the tank, a week after I stocked everyone else. The weekend I stocked everyone else, they were in quarantine at the LFS. I didn't ask why because they didn't say they were sick, just "in quarantine". I just _assumed _they were new and being watched after arrival.
We went back to the LFS today to get some plants and I saw they were in quarantine again. Got to chatting with two of the employees and they are definitely sick =| And whatever it is they are treating them again.
Annoying part is they are not sure what they are sick with! They are just treating with a general cure. So they couldn't tell me WHAT to treat for. But they were interested to hear about my experience and what I'M treating for... 

I'm a bit annoyed that they didn't call people who bought the dwarfs when they found out they were sick. Is that an unreasonable wish? They have a customer log so they log my purchases there. Sigh...

Anyway we hypothesize for our timeline:

1) brought in 7 dwarfs
2) one of them died
3) punctatus cories ate it
4) punctatus cories all got sick

Other fish in the tank contracted it as well, but I believe the cories probably ate the dead dwarf and internalized the infection. After all, only cories have died, no other species in the tank.

Today I did a therapeutic (for me) recovery job on the tank now that the medication round is complete. Bought a whole bunch of new plants. Took everything out of the tank and moved the remaining 3 punctatus cories and the 6 dwarf cories to the 10 gallon for isolation. Spent a few hours planting all of my new things. The tank looks lovely. I'm hoping everyone in the main tank will be well from here out!! And if the cories continue to be ill, at least now they are alone.


Also, just like the guy on the thread similar to this, I've learned a hard lesson. I am now going to keep the 10g available and running forever as a QT tank, and no new arrivals are going straight to the main display!!!


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## jrman83

I would very surprised if a Cory was eating on a dead fish. Not that I have dead fish in my tanks to prove that, but have never seen that in any of the fish stores I've been in with dead fish in their tanks. Fish start to decompose nearly immediately without any help. I have seen eyes gone and bellies missing from being dead less than two hours without anything touching it.

If a fish is sick and it enters your water your water is now sick and that is all it takes. It doesn't take it to die and anything to eat on it. This is why the use of nets from one tank to another can be dangerous, or anything else that you put in the water.


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## KJCos

Sounds like you are having a rough time too. :-(

We both evidently love those little Corys and it's hard to see them go. My daughter was furious when I told her our miseries also started at the hands of an unscrupulous pet store. I told her we were careless ourselves...but no more after this!

Hope we both start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel soon!


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## Threnjen

Could just be then, the cories had a reduced immune system due to the stress of the bully white fin tetras, so when the disease was in the water column they had a tougher time.

Either way, I read last week about the four strain columnaris thing, so I assumed that I had strain 3 or 4 since my losses haven't been quite as heavy as other's experiences. That plus the primary evidence I see on the cories who die are the lesions, AND the fact that I still have them dying a long while later.

KJCos, isn't it sad?? I just love the cories    It's like a shot to my heart! I'm following your saga now too of course, because it's so similar to my own.


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## coralbandit

I found this link to be the most informational of all;
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention


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## Threnjen

Another death, and this one was the oddest yet.

I checked all of the dwarfs and puntatus cories when I moved them over to the QT yesterday, and I didn't see anything amiss with them physically. I also check the tank and look at them often, such as while I was doing a WC today.

This evening after being out for Christmas dinner I checked on them, and everyone except one dwarf cory is spazzing out on one side of the tank, and the dwarf cory in question is (somehow) swimming around and looking as if his abdomen has exploded out from his stomach. I wish I had thought to take a picture of him IN the water since it looks so much different than once they are dead out of the water. It looked like he had an enormous puffy growth bulging out from his abdomen, and I see red streaking, as if septicemia. I've become cold-hearted after all of this apparently, because I netted him out and euthanized him. He looked BAD. Check the pics. His abdomen is bulging out huge.

This will be the third death in a row where a cory acted and looked fine, and then abruptly within a matter of hours died, with lesions/other oddities on their abdomen.


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## Threnjen

I'm just curious... do you guys just keep trying on a group of fish? Or is there a point where you decide there is nothing you can do for them?

I should... do something. But I don't know what. I did the full treatment of antibiotics on the main tank, and the fish there that were starting to show symptoms (mouth puffs primarily, on several different ones) all went away. But the cories just keep on dying out of nowhere. They just go down one by one. How can I ever trust that they are well again?

Should I be trying some different meds on them?
I'm not sure I want to keep putting them through this. They are so stressed. They are all pale as ghosts and freak out when I come near. I had to do 2 WC's today on the 10g tank (it has never had a chance to cycle) and it's so hard on them. They can never get better over here, they can't relax. I'm just making it worse for them.


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## jrman83

I think you have done fine at this point. I would look for stragglers that are still doing poorly and probably put them through a couple of baths as called out in the article that Tom posted above. These will require different meds, of course. Or the other option may be to euthanize.

I never looked at what I went through as curing what was wrong with the fish I can see affected, but more from the view of trying to halt the deaths. Your Cory deaths I think would have been a plus if you could have saved some of them, but if I recall they were your patient zeroes.


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## coralbandit

I think you have done well also.Even the pros have issues.No one mentioned yet (I don't think) that maybe the cories are the source of the issue.With some disease a "cured" fish can be considered "immune" from further infections of the same type(many rumors of this with ich).But with some disease the "cured" fish will always be ill and possibly(without ever showing signs) be a carrier forever.As horrible as that sounds(pretty much the worst news I guess),sometimes you can't save them.I think there is a chance you got a bad bunch of cories and no matter how well you do treating they may not survive.
There is alot of value($$$) in my tanks,and I care but sometimes you got to count the cost of one or several fish against all the others.
Euthanising is never the first choice but with some disease it is the best choice.We all have to decide for ourselves(you have read alot so you need to decide for yourself).
The quickest most humane way to euthanise a fish is ice cold water.Get a container and add water and ice cubes,let it chill for a couple of minutes and then put fish in it.Most normal sized fish don't suffer for more than 5-10 seconds.
No shame in starting over with fresh fish.It gives everyone in tank a better chance.
With the number of fish I keep I either medicate quickly(I only need to think there is a problem) or if it is one fish I euthanise.
We all do the best we can,you've worked very hard on your tank.Don't let it get you down,we are all not sucessful the first time,this is part of the pleasure and pride of being a good keeper.


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## majerah1

Cannot really add to what has been said. I agree, you have done very well. 

We all have outs with diseases and it can become frustrating.


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## KJCos

I'm too new to it all to offer any advice, but from one huge Cory fan to another , you have my sympathy, prayers and best wishes. I have also been following your thread on here and hoping to hear better news. It sure sounds like you are doing everything humanly possible.


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## Threnjen

Gang it genuinely means a lot to me, as a newbie, for you guys to tell me I've been doing the best I can. I mean it.

Question: The 10g smells terrible. Really awful. I did a 70% WC on it (because of ammonia) and it still smells bad. I don't know what to describe it as, though. I asked my dad and he said "musty, like a room that hasn't been opened for years". He said it's not like mold but something musty.
My mom gave an opinion, she things it smells "stagnant, like a gross pond" (it's not stagnant, it has filtration)
Whatever it is, it's quite pungent. I have in there some Anacharis, Pennywort and crypts just to help with ammonia levels.
Any ideas why it would smell so pungent?

When I euthanized the dwarf last night I used the ice water method, I've read that's most humane and of course I don't want them to suffer.

Ben yeah cories were patient 0. I thought it was a punctatus (first picture in my OP) but now I know it was actually a dwarf, probably the one that died and then disappeared. I no longer have any expectation of saving them after their population is this demolished.

Can cories tolerate salt? Now that they are alone in the 10g, if they can tolerate it, it would help a lot if I can add it. That article that coralbandit posted implies that catfish can tolerate it more than we think (I've seen that article before - I bet I've read every article on the earth about columnaris - that one had the most info of all of them and apparently the most accurate). 

I don't want it to come to mass euthanasia. I actually brought up the possibility to my hubby and he looked at me like I grew devil horns (especially since the cories are my faves). I'm not ready to go that route, still trying.

At present they are receiving frozen blood worms with metronazidale (sp?) powder mixed in. The LFS recommended I try that next. But considering they didn't even know what they were medicating their dwarfs for (or just wouldn't tell me?), I'm not sure how much stock I put in that. At least it makes me feel like I'm doing something and not just watching them die.

Thanks for following this ongoing saga. There will be another post as the next one dies I am sure...


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## KJCos

I went back to the Pet Store that had the Columnaris to begin with because I needed more meds (misread the dosage on the package and didn't get enough). A different employee waited on me and I asked if their fish were recovering (after noticing almost completely empty tanks that now had the post its removed), he looked clueless and said, "Our fish are fine?" It was just 24 hours before that the girl told me they were treating their fish for Columnaris! 

It's just sad that some shops care more about the $ than their stock. Surprisingly, Petsmart, although giving me wrong information (in fairness it was a "guess" based on a phone call), has generally been the most helpful and least worried about making a sale.


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## KJCos

Just checking in to see how things are going for you today?


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## Threnjen

No new deaths. The cories are looking well, too. They were pale as ghosts a few days ago but they have regained their color (well, in a way - they are only grey to begin with) and are eating. I'm hopeful that they are all going to survive but, we'll see. Like I mentioned in your thread, my baseline is going to be 2 weeks with no deaths. Last one lost on Dec 24 so it's going to be a while to meet this criteria.


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## jrman83

I would go 1-2 months before adding anything new. I just went through a bout with this just before you guys did. I have read no guideline on when the "all safe" is. My personal plan was to go 1-2 months and every weekly water change meet or exceed 75% during that time....almost what I do normally. If I get a death within that timeframe, reset. I lost 40-50 Cardinals and 3 Angels.


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## coralbandit

So since the beginning of this thread I have searched for the "life cycle" of columnaris to no avail.I found no link,spoke to no people(at fish store) or found in any book a definate time line on when the all clear for this disease is.Many other disease can be killed by being without host(fishless),or an all clear can be expected after "X" time without symptoms.Being as overpowering( can kill in 24 hrs) and the possibility for several strains(internal,external,"not so deadly"), I would roll with jr on how long to wait.I can't say how long is long enough and maybe 2 months is heavy(but safe),I think 2 weeks is light and risky.Again no proof,link or knowledge just gut instinct,lack of info and respect for jr and his opinion.He knows what he is talking about(most of you should have known this already).At least follow full treatment and don't even start the clock till you know the meds are completely out of your tank,the disease shouldn't show back up till then anyways.


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## KJCos

Jr, I have a question about water changes, and your knowledge is unquestionable! Am I understanding that you change at least 50% of your water on a weekly basis?

I was changing close to that on a 7-10 cycle, and upped it to 75 the day before my fish started dying. Two pet stores blamed the extreme water change for the deaths. I'm now scared to change more than 20-25%

I would love to hear your thoughts on this...plus the meds seem to have killed my bacteria temporarily. I have .25 ammonia and 0 nitrites/nitrates when I did my water change today.

Threnjen, I hope you don't mind me asking on your thread! I figured we both might learn a bit more.


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## coralbandit

You can't change too much water if done correctly;dechlorinate and have as close to tank temp as possible(preferably very close).as long as you don't buff your water(no one should be) then your water changing should not be an issue.Clean fresh water is the best cheapest thing you can do for your fish (and wallet).


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## jrman83

My tanks all get at least 50% weekly. That includes my 3 shrimp tanks and one of those only has 10 shrimp in it (29g). The other 3 (75g, 2-125g) have to get at least 50% because I dose fertilizer using the estimative index (EI) system and its philosophy is to overload the water column during the week and rest it at the end of the week. However, I usually do 65-75% and have gone as far as 80%. It takes a long time to do an 80% water change on a 125g with gravity draining. A constant temp when changing the water is key.

I would just disregard what the fish store people told you. It would just show me that they are like most and really don't know anything about keeping fish and probably have little experience outside the store.

The meds can have that affect on your bio filtration. I would watch your feeding until things re-establish some. I would guess it wouldn't take too long to regrow bb. Getting the meds out of there completely will aide in this.


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## KJCos

Okay, thanks. I will get over my fear and go back to my old habit of 50% weekly. I'll moniter feedings and hope my bio reestablishes quickly. 

I'm definitely not restocking anytime soon. I want these remaining fish to settle back into a healthy routine.


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## Threnjen

A month it is then! I just don't think I can manage 2, honestly.
Yup I am all done with meds and stuff, just keeping the cories alone over in the 10 and waiting.

No problem KJCos  Although I'm with the guys, why on earth did the fish store tell you that?? Yeesh.


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## IanHulett

After Gena died, I kept a close eye on Freddy and the tragic 20 hours before I lost him, I noticed a powder patch about a half a centimeter grow to take over his body and it stood up like grass before it killed him. I burried Gena and Freddy in my palm tree pot next to each other. To bad the palm trees growing in their final resting place is attracting scale! *Mad* 

Good job for catching it early enough *banana dance as it can kill your fish... FAST!


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## Threnjen

Well I spoke too soon thinking it was over. I came home this evening and out of the blue, a punctatus cory dead. Reddish behind the side fins in the spot I have often seen redness on the dead, but otherwise not a mark on him. And annoyingly enough, I would have said the cories were improving. Their behavior and coloring has been so much better these last several days, and they have not had locked fins like they did when they were (more obviously) ill. I didn't even bother to take a picture of the dead cory because there was nothing much to see.

I'm pretty disheartened at this point about the cory prognosis.

Even my husband, who looked at me like I was the devil when I suggested this last week, suggested that maybe we are now better off putting all of the cories down and nuking the tank.

I mean it's a downward spiral anyway, there are only 2 puntatus left now, so they are only going to be MORE stressed and MORE susceptible to illness as there is no longer group stress relief.

What should I do??? I'm just lost. Is there a special kind of hell if I just write all of them off? Or do I just wait for them to die one by one? I don't know what I should do.


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## Threnjen

Another punctatus today is looking gravely ill. Clamped dorsal, heavy breathing. I expect to lose it by the end of the night.

I was trying not to add anything else to the tank that would kill the bio filter, but in face of the bio filter never getting established (no matter what seeded media I add, I still have .25-.5amm/0 NO2/0 NO3), I've opted to add some Methylene Blue to the tank. I'm sure it's too little too late.


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## seaecho

I've been battling what I think is Columnaris for close to two years now. Many of my fish looked similar to yours when they died. Some died VERY quickly--12 hours, and some lingered for weeks, a couple lingered for a couple of months. They always lose their appetite, and soon after (within a day or two) I start noticing signs. Apparently, with the strain I have, by then, it's already too late. The "saddle" on the back sometimes appears, sometimes not. It's harder to tell on lighter colored fish. Sometimes the white will appear as tan or yellow. Its a horrible disease, and I've started over three times now. And no, I didn't euthanize the healthy appearing fish. I guess I should have. Cories are very susceptible to Columnaris. You probably already know that with all the reading you've done.

I've lost probably about 50 fish since this all started. I always put sick fish in a hospital tank and treat them, but I've only saved two out of all that I've lost. I've tried Maracyn and Maracyn 2, Kanamycin, and Kanamycin with Furan 2. Every time I thought it was finally gone (I've gone* 4 months* with no deaths before!) another fish gets sick and it starts all over again. 

I've never nuked my big tank (55 gallons) because of having no place to put all my fish that weren't yet sick. I only have a 20 gallon and a 10 gallon, and they are already stocked. So I just took fish out as they showed symptoms and treated in the hospital tank. This did not work for me. As I said, I've been through it either 3 or 4 times now. Can't even remember, as I almost gave up twice. 

I am now ready to give up again. First it was just live bearers, cories and bettas. Now I've lost my first cichlid and another has popeye. Not sure if that's due to Columnaris or not, but I suspect it is. I think some of mine get the external form, and some the internal form, as I have had red streaks/blotches on several that have died. I have done endless hours of research, and like you said, there's not a whole lot of accurate information out there on Columnaris. It's heartbreaking.

Once I lose all my fish, I will nuke the tank, and I don't think I'll be getting any more. I cried when I lost my Bolivian Ram just yesterday as if he were a dog. I'd only had him for about two years. It's no longer worth the heartache for me. One wrong move with not quarantining, and this is what happens! Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, and I was no different. Now my tank is contaminated, and there's nothing I can do. It would cost me a fortune to treat my 55 gallon, and I doubt it would completely kill it anyway. 

So unfortunately, once it starts, you either have to move all your fish if you have the room in another tank that is empty, or euthanize them all and nuke the tank and all decorations, plants, etc. I think that's what it boils down to. This disease is insidious, and it lies in wait for the next opportunity. I have an especially virulent form, but like I said, some of my fish have lingered for a while. I think it would be safe to consider you have Columnaris. It's a very hard lesson to learn, and a devastating one. I don't know how I'll be able to stand losing any more fish, but what can you do? As you said, what's done is done, and I goofed up big-time by not quarantining every single new fish from the beginning. I wish you more luck than I've had!


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## Threnjen

Seaecho your story is so sad!!!  I'm so sorry!!!

I hope you don't give up! If you order meds online it wouldn't be as expensive to treat the 55. Jrman83 sent me to this place
Fish Antibiotics & Chemicals Page 4
I treated with the TMP sulfa; not sure if that was the best pick but everyone but the cories *seems* fine. I ordered 1/4 pound for my 110g and it was way too much, I have over half left over. I bet you could order the smallest amount for treatment of a 55g.

They carry one that they say is the most powerful gram negative antibiotic on the market, Gentamycin Sulfate? Although right this minute they are out of stock.


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## Threnjen

The cories have actually perked up after the methylene blue added. Maybe they won't die (today)

Sadly today did not go by without a death, but nothing to do with illness. Our female mystery snail crawled out of the tank looking for somewhere to lay eggs (we have it mostly covered but there is a small open strip) and then she fell out to the wood floor a good 4 feet, and was out heaven knows how long (it could have been days). We did put her back in as soon as I found her, and she was alive but she was clearly ailing and very unwell. Her shell was horrendously damaged, and I noticed tonight that the damage allowed her insides to be exposed, and even worse I saw that her mantle was detached  So we euthanized her quickly after I noticed the extend of the damage. Poor thing. I feel awful.


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## seaecho

So sorry to hear of the latest tragedy. My mystery snail laid eggs many times inside the aquarium, at the top of the water. Maybe you could lower your water level in the future a bit?

Thank you for the link! Yes, Gentomycin is powerful. It can also damage or destroy liver and kidneys, but if they're really sick, darned if you do and darned if you don't.

Just don't want you to get your hopes up as like I said, it's insidious and you never know when it will strike again. I don't know if it goes dormant or not--not enough is known about this horrible afflection. I'll help you any way I can, with what little I know, but looks like we're both stuck with it unless we completely nuke.


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## coralbandit

OK I'm sure some of you have read all I can find,but if you haven't read these links,they have important info,none of which is really good news.
http://www.glfc.org/pubs/SpecialPubs/sp83_2/pdf/chap23.pdf
This link says on page 201 in the modes of transmission that columnaris can last for SEVERAL YEARS!
Columnaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In this link under cause it is noted that the disease can live in water for 32 days(I'll assume this is without fish!)
The largest cause next to stress(which is anything and everything to a fish) is tempature.Anything over 75 f is asking for it.The other links mention 54 f but are involving wild fish(lot more scientific studies of wild fish then aquarium,but they are related).
The several years,and 32 days are serious enough (to me) that if an effective cure has not been acheived then sterilsation of the tank and all equipment and euthanising of ALL fish would be my cure.For such a common diseaes with many listed treatments(that seem to be effective on some level) this disease also seems to run neck and neck with fish TB(mycrobacterium) that can also last years.Seems columnaris kills alot faster and more frequently then TB,but both seem to have a resistence to average treatments and persistence to fool many into thinking it is gone,when it is not.
SORRY.


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## Threnjen

I've read before several places that columnaris is actually present in almost all aquariums. It's just one of those things that is always around. The trick is just keeping the fish from getting stressed enough to contract it 

Like my pathway to the disease seems pretty clear to me now:
White Fin Tetras harass Punctatus Cories -> Dwarf cories come in with disease -> Stressed Punctatus cories contract -> Increased growth of bacteria causes minor infection of other fish -> Punctatus cories drop like flies

I do believe the columnaris is probably still "in there". But I know I've read multiple places how columnaris is there in most tanks.

Thanks for that first link, I haven't seen that one! Reading it now - GREAT paper.
Less excited to read that it may take several weeks for the less virulent strains to show up in fish. So my main tank fish could still be at risk. SIGH. Glad you guys recommended a longer wait period before I start restocking inhabitants.


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## Threnjen

Is that paper really old though? I don't see a date. The references are all quite old however.
For example it recommended food dosed with Oxytetracycline, but I've seen several places that is totally ineffective because it only treats gram-positive.
Doesn't discount the other helpful info in the paper.


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## coralbandit

It may be old(can't say).I will say it was more info on timeline than many more recent articles.
Oxytetracycline hydrochloride was also found as a medicated food to cure internal 
,and this link;
FishProfiles.com - Flexibacter columnaris
Claiming furan (furanace) to be the only cure for internal which I think it indicated all fish with columnaris have and is why when you think it is gone(no visable signs) it is not.


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## coralbandit

Another medicine I found in multiple links
Fish Oxy Forte 300mg Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride Powder 50 Grams | eBay
Research the med;oxytetracycline hydrochloride
My bad it is not food,but a med and does say it treats both positive and negative infections.


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## coralbandit

Threnjen said:


> I've read before several places that columnaris is actually present in almost all aquariums. It's just one of those things that is always around. The trick is just keeping the fish from getting stressed enough to contract it
> 
> Like my pathway to the disease seems pretty clear to me now:
> White Fin Tetras harass Punctatus Cories -> Dwarf cories come in with disease -> Stressed Punctatus cories contract -> Increased growth of bacteria causes minor infection of other fish -> Punctatus cories drop like flies
> 
> I do believe the columnaris is probably still "in there". But I know I've read multiple places how columnaris is there in most tanks.
> 
> Thanks for that first link, I haven't seen that one! Reading it now - GREAT paper.
> Less excited to read that it may take several weeks for the less virulent strains to show up in fish. So my main tank fish could still be at risk. SIGH. Glad you guys recommended a longer wait period before I start restocking inhabitants.


I definately would roll with jr on 2 months now after my reading.
With the limited info out there,I will just as a standard dis agree that it is present in all tanks.That is one of the hugest myths about ich which has been proven untrue.This is why I searched LIFE CYCLE ,but found little info.
The articles I linked were in reference to farmed fish ,but noted many times that it is a tempature activated disease as it lies in wait(not dormant) throughout the winter months and then is active again in spring and summer when temps rise.It is a very oppurtunistic disease.
If it was present in all tanks and stress was all that is needed then bringing sick fish into your tank would not have been necessary as the white fins would have /did cause enough stress that you noticed it(pretend you're a little fish who can't get away),and the need to introduce "sick" fish is not necessary.But you do believe that you introduced sick fish(so do I) and that is where it all got started.The stress of the white tips was just that stress which alone can lower a healthy fishes immune system and make them suseptable to almost anything.You just introduced a powerful strain of columnaris that wreaked havoc.
I definately think your main tank is still at risk.I wish there was a "cut and dry" way to remedy this (like with ich),but as you have found,so many links contradict each other that whether true or not ,there seems to be a large flucuation in curing this problem completetly.
@seaecho;so sorry you have gone through this so long and I do believe you have had it for 2 years.NUKE IT ,START OVER.Don't quit the fish hobby,but wow you got to know it's gone before you go any farther.Sorry.
I found a few links that actually say UV steralisers will help.But you need to know the difference between sterilisation and treating.Basically it is the time water is exposed to the light.This is done by higher powered lights and lower flow rates.Just running our average "UV steriliser " I think would be ineffective at this point,but it may help once erradicated to keep it from comming back.


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## Threnjen

Tom, you're awesome. You're doing all this research for the community so we can all be better informed about this craptastic disease. I hope we all come out of this knowing that much more and can help the next person to come along with it...


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## jrman83

If you get the Oxy, get it from the place you got the triple sulfate. Better quality I would guess. I have it and have used it. If I had a q-tank, I would treat all new fish with oxy for a minimum of 5 days.


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## Threnjen

Oh no, oh man...
I did a WC on the hospital tank maybe 10 hours ago and I forgot to turn the thermometer and filter back on!!
It's like 70 degrees in there!
OMG the poor cories... please don't let them die due to my complete failure...


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## coralbandit

Better a little cold then too warm with this issue!
Hope they are ok.


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## Threnjen

They are ok today, thank goodness. I would have felt absolutely horrendous if after all this they died of hypothermia due to my error. Yeesh....


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## Threnjen

The cory tank is no more. There was another punctatus death, and I do NOT believe that it was due to the temperature problem.

This afternoon everyone was completely fine, no clamping, averagely active, eating.
Took the kids over to my parents, came back a few hours later, was doing the daily water change and found a dead Punctatus.

Husband told me that not long before that he had checked on them and counted everyone and had seen that particular cory swim over behind the driftwood that I found him behind, so I think he happened to see him swim over there to die. He didn't see anything wrong with it. However he checked it after I netted it out and said the belly was red and red behind the side fins.

On that note, with the cories just randomly dropping every few days, showing no sign of improvement, being patient 0 carriers of the illness, and obviously still having it - they had to go.
And if you want to know if I felt like a heinous, heartless, cold monster while I netted cories out to their deaths - yes, yes I did =| I cried while I did it but that doesn't change much. I committed mass cory genocide. Honestly I feel like absolute crap about it.
Euthanized 5 dwarf cories (the cories who brought in the disease) and 1 punctatus cory, the very last of his kind.

I never treated with Furan... maybe I didn't try hard enough. I'm always going to think I didn't try hard enough. And what if these cories had lived?? What if I euthanized totally healthy fish.
But, I could never have returned them to my main tank, not ever.

But. It's done.


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## jrman83

These are just some of the decisions that we have to make. I have a decent amount of fish in my tanks, even after my columnaris breakout, and I have been known to just see one not looking so good and remove it for fear of affecting the others. I get internal parasite breakouts from time to time and I am totally convinced that there is no cure for the fish once it takes hold. I have tried very strong meds that have completely wiped out hundreds of malaysian trumpet snails (which I intentionally put in my tanks) and nearly kill about half my plants, only to see it take the fish anyway. Sometimes you have to take the easiest route.

Hopefully, by doing what you did you protected others.


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## coralbandit

sorry about the outcome.You probly did the right thing.Hope your tank is safe and clean.


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## KJCos

So sorry to hear this. I can feel your pain and mixed emotions, but it sounds like you made the right decision. Hugs to you!


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## seaecho

Oh my... I feel your pain! I have not yet been able to get myself to euthanize fish that are active and look healthy. I just cannot do it. Yet, the Columnaris remains in my tank. You did the right thing, no doubt. If they had gone into your main tank, everyone would have gotten it eventually. I sit and wait and wonder who will be next these days. I just can't bring myself to euthanize healthy (seemingly) fish so that is why it's gone on so long for me. I haven't bought any new fish in months, and I won't. Not until all the fish have succumbed, and then I will nuke the aquarium and start all over. I've also read about Columnaris naturally being in the water column, and wondered how this can be so, when some people have fish dying left and right, and others have no deaths. Makes no sense.

I have used Furan, and I know it's highly touted as the best treatment for Columnaris, and thought I caught it early, but nearly every fish has died, while being treated. I've not tried the Fish Oxy Forte--one of the few things I HAVEN'T tried. But it seems that once they start showing symptoms, it's only a matter of time. '

I have to agree with Tom that your main tank is still at risk. I always thought I didn't try hard enough too, no matter what I did. I won't be adding any more fish, as it would be a sure death sentence for them sooner or later. 

I feel so bad for you, but you were brave, and I really believe you did the right thing.


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## Threnjen

I took a special trip to my not-so-local fish store last night where I got the dwarfs and they are STILL in quarantine! Those stupid dwarfs!! I feel bad for anyone who accidentally buys any between quarantines (LIKE I DID) and gets their whole tank wiped out. Geesh!!

I'm still a month out from adding friends to the main tank, but everything is still going seemingly well in there. I observe everyone every day to watch for any signs of trouble. We continue to be all right in there. I'm sure it's naive to hope that the TMP Sulfa really did its job, but maybe I really did catch it early enough in everyone else. Too late for the cories, but maybe the others were in very early stage. To this day no other fish besides the dwarf and punctatus cories have died.

I added some fish to the quarantine tank yesterday - a few guppies for my kid to enjoy, and a german blue ram for me. I intend to keep them in there for 4 weeks. I feel a little bad with a ram in a 10 but it's still quite small and it's only temporary. Not sure how to reconcile the proper space for a fish with the size of a quarantine!
I planted the quarantine tank which I know is silly for a simple quarantine but it actually looks rather pretty now  Plus I wanted to give the ram plenty of solitary spaces to feel secure. That's my excuse, anyway... Mostly I just love the look of real plants.


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## coralbandit

Glad to hear things are looking up!Make sure to offer the ram some frozen bloodworms as they seem to be the favorite of mine(100++).My rams also eat flake and NLS small pellets but they prefer to have those introduced right into the outflow of my hob so the food moves and travels in the water colunm.Rams are one of the hardest to keep fish IMO so giving them what they want,not what they need is so important!They just don't seem so interested in any food (besides the bloodworms) that have some "movement " to them.
Really glad things are getting better and hope real soon you get to start to "really" enjoy!


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## Threnjen

Ah, thanks. Great advice about the bloodworms!
I was just over there after I made that post, feeding that tank. I offered them some NLS pellets and the ram was certainly not interested. Later on today I'll try just what you suggested and introduce some bloodworms right at the HOB outflow.
Could be early for her to want to eat anyway, she just came home last night and is probably a little stressed.
I've heard rams are hard to keep but decided I was up for the challenge. I know one aspect of their care is proper nitrate control but my main tank stays so low on nitrates that I may need to start dosing it as part of my ferts schedule. Tough problem to have


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## seaecho

Don't worry about keeping the ram in a 10, for now. For the quarantine period, that tank will be just fine. Also, as I'm sure you know, they should have WARM water--about 82F.


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## Threnjen

Well my frustration goes on and on. In the last 24 hours, 5 of 10 cardinal tetras have up and died, with a 6th looking quite unwell. Hubby and I are really at a loss. It's like a mass cardinal suicide. They were all there on Sunday and starting Mon afternoon they dropped like flies. We even counted all that remained last night before watching TV, found all of them and confirmed they seemed all right, then went back just 2 hours later and another was dead.

Also, a couple days ago, 2 of the guppies in the QT died. The water parameters were perfect (and the Ram was well, and she would be more sensitive to poor parameters). The first one to die looked injured. He had a huge semicircular cut/lesion on his side near his gills where I could peel the flesh right forward. Could the ram be aggressive to them under cover of darkness because of the tank size? I had simply figured that the guppies would stay up top out of her way. I took pictures of the first guppy ut I'm so annoyed right now I don't want to get my phone to post them, although I'd love if people could take a look later. Guppy #2, who knows. I woke up and he was swimming with all of his fins clamped, listing, and his tail wasn't fanned out. That one had no visible injuries.

It's one of those discouraging days. I hope the cardinals aren't succumbing to columnaris after a month and a half of incubation. I'm hoping to come up with some other reason that they are dying. None of them have had any visible physical abnormalities. They just up and died.

Sorry if I missed any b's, my b key is sticky


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## coralbandit

Cardinals are pretty tough to acclimate ,and indeed very sensative.It seems when I get them it is 50/50 on them surviving or one of my older ones dies(like I planned the new as replacements{I didn't}).If they are still small when you get them than their diffaculty could be the case.If they are larger,I'll just say as sad as it is they only live for 4 years or so in aquariums(which is much longer than reported in the wild where they are almost considered annuals(1 year!).
Rams can be tough ,but usaully only to each other (like discus).They usaully don't bug others and don't think she was the issue with your guppies.
sorry to hear of your troubles ,it's seems you are really having to earn your tank and fish.Don't lose hope or faith,none of us are magical keepers,we just keep at it.I know you will enjoy your fish in time,just hope it is sooner for you!


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## seaecho

Like I said before, I once went FOUR MONTHS with no deaths, and not adding any fish, and it suddenly started all over again. Just when you think it's gone, it strikes again. I have found that guppies (especially females) tend to not do well, due to bad breeding, inbreeding, or what have you. Guppies are not as hardy as they once were, thanks to people mass breeding to make a buck. I've lost quite a few guppies. I haven't had Cardinals, so can't comment on that, but I've had quite a few fish up and die with no prior symptoms. Columnaris can kill in less than 12 hours. It doesn't seem to have any set pattern, which makes it all the more frustrating. I'm determined not to give up. Maybe fish, yeah, as I'm fed up with losing my precious babies, but I've started keeping Fiddler crabs and I love them to death, and they can't get columnaris, so if I lose all my fish, I may just have crabs in one tank and dwarf crayfish in another! Doesn't mean you have to give up aquariums altogether; maybe just get something else that you enjoy to fill those tanks.


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## Threnjen

These weren't new cardinals though - I've had them for a few months now. However, husband and I suspect a recent chemical addition. I've been working to raise my kH to 3 (however after this fiasco - I give up) and also adding the trace minerals that my ridiculously soft water lacks (it's practically RO). I've become a bit lax in my testing recently and just adding my Seachem Equilibrium as directed with water changes. However after the cardinals died I did a gH test and my water was very, very hard. I did a water change on Saturday with the Equilibrium and the cardinals died on Monday. I'm going to suggest an overdose of Equilibrium, raising the water to a hardness they just can't handle? I know that fish can be acclimated to any water, but as they prefer very soft water I imagine an increase to excessive hardness could be very detrimental to them.
I'm hoping and praying this was the cause, because if it's the columnaris I'm just not sure I can take it.

I'm still concerned however. Our Angelfish, our most prized fish, has been lethargic and hasn't attended dinner in 3 days. Usually he is all over the food like a famished puppy. He just hangs out in one spot of the tank, doing nothing. I'm trying to decide if I should remove him to a hospital tank but all I have is 10g plastic bins to serve. He's still a juvie so it would probably be all right but I'd prefer to not make it worse.
I could buy a 20L at the Petco sale... if it's still going on.

I don't know how much of this I can take  But I'm so in the hole with the aquariums, it's not like I can just give up.

As for the guppies, it was two males. I never seem to have my phone on hand when I make these posts. But the first one really did appear injured.


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## coralbandit

I would suspect the elavated GH could be the issue with the cards.
My tap is basically 0kh/gh with a pH of 7.6.I don't do a thing to my water.I have live plants ,sensative fish(cards,discus).
without being a pretty good chemist(I'm not) I'll just say it is basically impossible to raise kh without raising the ph(I tried).Once things(fish/plants) acclimate to your water no need to do anything but change it.The only thing I ever test for is nitrates,as I am dosing ferts and still need to work out how much.


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## Threnjen

Yeah I am starting to think I am chasing rainbows with this kh/gh thing in general. Last night I ran a full panel and my kH was back to 0 and that's with a cuttlebone and a good 4 cups of coral in there.

But I no longer think the hardness was the problem. I believe I made a rookie mistake and literally poisoned the fish 

Long story short, last night I walked over and there was a dead Harlequin Rasbora. I had a restrained freakout because if multiple species are dying, it's some bigger problem (aka COLUMNARIS LIVES). Hubby came over to help me look around and noticed a mouse pad that I put in the sump on Saturday for the sump pump to sit on. No big deal right? Except that there was a top layer on the mouse pad which was glued onto the rubber, and it was separating and there was some sort of gummy glue layer in between that was dissolving.

So. Do I hope I poisoned my fish with glue toxicity? Yes, yes I do. At least that's something I can fix. If it's the columnaris well... I am clearly screwed.

If it IS the columnaris, does anyone remember reading the following from all the research:
* Can snails be carriers (even if they don't get it)
* Was it 32ish days that it can live without a carrier?

i might go to Petco today to pick up a 20L in case I need to treat for columnaris again. I'd prefer to move all fish out of the main tank to an outside tank rather than treat the main tank again, as I now have a dozen nerites in there plus a rather hefty plant investment, so I really don't want to medicate that tank again. If possible I would prefer to simply leave it without viable hosts.


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## coralbandit

I hope you poisoned your fish too!Sounds strange huh?
I won't discount that the glues and whatever may be toxic,but Occams razor tells me you still got columnaris.
The wiki link did say it can survive for 32 days without host,but the more scientific one said seasonal(over the course of years!).
Snails can definately transport it,maybe even plants?
I feel for seaecho,but also would not be sitting "idle" waiting for next death to end my fishkeeping hobby.
Get another tank(the 20 long) and move everything alive into it and treat for at least 2x the suggested period.While doing this take your main tank apart and boil,nuke,bleach,bake everything else(gravel,wood rocks,deco).Thoroughly clean tank(with bleach,H202,whatever) and then let it dry for as long as you can(same for your sump!)I hate to think or say exterminate all fish and live stock,but with some issues like fish microbacterium(TB) that is the cure.Greater research on the fish TB says even bleach may not kill it?
Occams razor basically says that when no answer can be scientifically determined then the answer is the simplest of all.We all over think things ,and Occam must have known this!
Sorry and this seems absolutely brutal what you are going through.


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## Threnjen

Well you know, I just have to keep hope alive.

I hear you, too, except this did all seem to happen rather abruptly after my various Saturday administrations.
Course stress could mean even if it was the glue, that now they all get columnaris again anyway.


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## Threnjen

Ugh yeah. Things are not so great. One of the rasboras has a partially missing tail, out of nowhere.

I picked up the 20L. Available to me is the 20L and 3 clear plastic bins which are appx 7 or 8 gallons (that's a guess, just based on how they look compared to my 10g)

For fish in the main tank, there is an Angelfish, 5 cardinal tetras, 6 boesemani rainbows and 9 harlequin rasboras. Along with 4 mystery snails and 12 nerites.

Currently I have the angel in one of the bins, I removed him there last night after his odd behavior, and added some Jungle Fungus and Methylene Blue.

I have a very large medicine cabinet of stuff available to me.

I doubt I can really move out the snails. In particular 3 of the mystery snails are absolute beasts. I have nowhere large enough to put them. they can't go into the 20L if it gets medicated.

I need to look through all of the links about columnaris again and decide on my best course of action with the various "tanks" available to me.



Suggestions for a good division?


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## jrman83

Feel sorry for you. Things like this can make you wonder if fishkeeping is what you really want/need. Hang in there.


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## seaecho

Have to agree--sometimes I wonder how in the world I've had the guts and fortitude to start over 3 or 4 times! How do you like the Nerite snails? I wonder if I might get a couple for my fiddler crab tank.


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## Threnjen

They are fine, they are pretty unexciting. They barely move.


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## seaecho

They're so pretty though! It's a shame they barely move. I was wondering if they'd be good to keep the sand sifted through and not get stinky in with the crabs.


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## Threnjen

Mine don't really putz around in the sand much. They do like algae,so if you have any problems with that, they will help. The mystery snails are a million times more interesting and personable, in my opinion. Although they poop more than they eat.

Tank updates for today...
Last night I put the angel back in the main tank. Today he was starting to crash on the bottom. Even my husband teared up a little because we just love this angel.

I moved him back to the bin along with the rasbora with a torn caudal fin and started a treatment of Furan 2 and Kanamycin. of course it's probably too late for them. But the angel did seem more active this evening.

One of the Boesemani's is getting a puffy white upper lip again, although the boesemani's are as rowdy and boisterous as ever.

We're running the pros and cons of our various options. We're still not sure if this is an issue of poisoning, or if it's columnaris (brought on by the stress of poisoning?)

I don't want to run more than 3 tanks in addition to the 90g (this includes our 10g quarantine which naturally has fish I bought just last week to start their 1 month quarantine period)

So there is:
90g with columnaris (probably)
20L, brand new
10g planted QT with QT fish
7-8g bins (up to 3 available)

I suggested to spouse that we:
* 6 Boesemani's, 5 Cardinal Tetras and guppies (from the QT) to the 20L
* Angel and 10 rasboras to the 7-8g bin
* Snails (4 mystery and 12 nerite) to the 10g Quarantine after a "wash" in clean water. Not sure what else to do with them, that tank is at least established and has plants and some algae. But it is WAY WAY too small for that many snails.
* German Blue Ram - ????? Could be in a bin alone, or go in with the other fish and get his with antibiotics

So I would have about 30g of water to treat with antibiotics, the 20L and a bin.


So back to the main tank - that leaves it with substrate, plants, wood. We could:
* H2O2 run in the aquarium (either before or after any/all of next steps)
* Bleach dip the plants and then ... ? Just store them for a few days in the dark and hope for the best, I guess
* Wash and bleach substrate
* Wash, H2O2 and dry out wood, leaving it out in the cold to dry out
* With aquarium empty up top and after H2O2 cleaned out, bleach run through aquarium
* Remove all filter medias, dispose of sponges. Wash and bleach bio balls.
* Bleach all pumps/equipment externally

This should cover all areas of the aquarium.


I think before we opt to do this we are going to see if the angel and the rasbora improve and if anything else dies. However... we are still quite concerned about the boesemani so action may be required sooner than we can wait.

Edit: I forgot option 2, which would be at a much higher monetary cost. We could remove just the snails to the 20L, and keep all of the fish in the main tank and medicate it with Furanazone and Karamycin. This may not be as effective as a tank tear down.


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## Threnjen

I think our next big investment might be a UV sterilizer. We can run it at the sump output.

Thoughts? Would this be effective? Articles I have read about it suggest it is effective at killing bacteria, but this could be false information.


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## coralbandit

Uv is sited in one of the links as a good thing.I would search for a decent sized unit and run it on a seperate pump,as opposed to the sump return.The larger the chamber and the slower water flows through it the more effective it will be.Running it with sump return would work also ,but the flow I imagine would be faster so the effect would be lowered /or take longer to achieve.If it just takes longer no big deal,but if it just is not as powerful overall I don't think it will have the same effect.You are hoping to achieve UV sterilisation,not treatment(that is how they say flow and stregnth change it'seffect).


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## jrman83

UVs are mostly effective against green water and killing free floating algae. Personally, I think they are marginal against most other things. Not to say that they can't be useful as I believe it kills some things and may not down the abundance of harmful stuff, but it is not complete swipe of all bad stuff in your tank, no matter how high of a wattage you get. Be aware that they can increase the temp of your water. Not such a big deal during Winter, but Summer can be different - why I shut mine down.


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## Threnjen

Yeah I stayed up quite late last night researching these and understand now that a lot of bad bacteria doesn't die, but it IS rendered sterile and can't multiply. That still seems to have a fair amount of value.
I was looking at this one which is still expensive (ugh) but at least very well reviewed:
Turbo Twist
If I get the 36W I can get away with my current pump to handle algae and bacteria, although not parasites. I could do as Tom suggested and use a second pump to service the sterilizer to keep it in range for parasites.

I will very likely end up doing this - even if it doesn't help it certainly won't hurt, and might give me just the tiniest added peace of mind, know what I mean?


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## Threnjen

Hey howdy hey!

Everything is fine over here. Spouse and I are about 99% sure that I totally poisoned the fish. No deaths after I realized the problem and started the mad water changes.

The thing I thought I saw on the boesemani's lip was nothing, false alarm there.
I did hospital the Angel and the Rasbora with the broken fin (can't recall if I mentioned that) and medicated them. After 8 days of meds the Angel and Rasbora went back in the tank. The rasbora's fin has almost grown back entirely and he is active.
The Angel, while nominally recovered, is a bit of a sad story. This sounds ridiculous but spouse and I are fairly certain that he has suffered some sort of neurological or physical damage from the toxins. He used to approach feeding time with excitement and gusto, but he no longer is able to. To plainly describe his symptoms, he cannot seem to find the food any more on his own. I've even seen him make attempts to dart out and grab food and he fails to aim properly and misses the pellet. He also won't go for the "snail jello" that I toss in (he used to be down at the bottom pecking at it). I'm guessing something has happened to his sense of smell. Only time will tell if he is able to recover. I now have to feed him by syringe pretty much straight into his mouth since he can't find the food on his own.

A couple days ago I moved the occupants of the quarantine to the main tank. It was a week ahead of plan, but the Cardinals in the main tank have been very stressed now that there are only 5, so we needed to fast track some cardinals into the quarantine, so it needed to become available ASAP. Also there was some guppy fry coming out in the quarantine and I don't want a million baby guppies (I can't help but rescue them if I see them), so I wanted those lady guppies in the main tank. Ignorance is bliss (when it comes to fry).
The Ram also moved out of QT into the main tank and is rather hilarious. During her time in QT with the guppies she became quite convinced that she was a guppy herself. Now in the main tank she spends a good amount of time with the guppies and other fish, and never hides by herself. A very social and friendly fish to be sure.

The QT is now home to 10 new cardinals who will be able to join their lonely friends in a few weeks. We also purchased 6 Common Otos with an intent to house them in the sump with the algae scrubber (which runs during the lights off time). We kept them in the QT and then it was spotless. So after installing our new UV sterilizer we moved them into the sump, figuring any water that contacts them has to go through the sterilizer to go back to the main tank, so it should be safe as far as bacteria.
However after 3-4 days, they have eaten every last thing in the sump, and the scrubber is practically cleaned off!! I had no idea they were so efficient. I'm not even sure what to do with them now as the screen can't grow algae as fast as they can eat it!

As for the UV sterilizer, we went with the Turbo Twist 12x and I absolutely love it. That thing is a BEAST though! I was not expecting that!! However I cannot believe how absolutely crystalline the water has become (and it was already pretty darn clear).

Things feel really good right now with the tank. It looks amazing, everyone seems happy (after my terrible poisoning...). I don't think anyone is ill.

Sorry for my novel!! I hope my good spirits are coming through though! It's nice to feel positive about things for a change.


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