# Update on cycle.



## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Well after today test my ammonia is creeping up around 1ppm or its right on. I have 0 nitrite
And nitrate are 5.0ppm.


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## rayray74 (Mar 19, 2013)

Hi there,
is this a continuation from a previous post? 
Is this a new tank? Did you add new fish? Clean filters?


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Ah, sorry about that. Yes the original thread was Ammonia prob.





rayray74 said:


> Hi there,
> is this a continuation from a previous post?
> Is this a new tank? Did you add new fish? Clean filters?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

still cycling but getting close. 

Refresh my memory... did you ever do a baseline test of your tap water ? I ask because my tap water tests out at 5 ppm of Nitrates.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Now that you mention it, I just tested the tank and my tap water for Nitrate and they both came up the same color, just about 5.0ppm .that's not good. 






CAM said:


> still cycling but getting close.
> 
> Refresh my memory... did you ever do a baseline test of your tap water ? I ask because my tap water tests out at 5 ppm of Nitrates.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah... with your tank not producing Nitrates and the absence of Nitrites, appears you may not be as close as I was hoping. 

How long have you had fish in this tank ?


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

About 2 weeks now. Start over?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

No need.

Be patient.

Test frequently.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Start your clock over since you just introduced the TSS.Test regulary and don't change water till over 1ppm(possibly closer to 1.5ppm).The bacteria do indeed need the "food" of nutrients(ammonia and nitrIte) to get all the way(to nitrAte).


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay will do. I just did a ammonia test and its pretty green. Crap I would say its pushing 2.0ppm. How much water should be changed at one time so I dont remove too much?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

With fish in the tank, you want it below 1 ppm. Do at least a 50% water change.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

And something happened to your TSS bacteria. 

Two tanks, used TSS to finish cycling in both. Never registered more than 0.25 ammonia. Never registered nitrites. Had 20 ppm nitrates within 5 days.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Crap. What if I do a 50% fill it and treat the water with conditioner And I'll let 24 hours or more go by and add TSS and try over?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

If you do a 50% change, you will still be in the fringe of too much Ammonia for TSS bacteria to survive. Not counting Ammonia that accumulates after the water change.

I would do a 75% water change, very important to condition water and temp match, then test 24 hours later. If ammonia and nitrites are at or below 1 ppm, I would add TSS and not change water or test again for at least 48 hours.... give the bacteria time to colonize.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

CAM -- you sure about 2ppm ammonia being a toxic level for TSS? When I cycled with TSS, my ammonia crept up to almost 1ppm and my tank cycled in 10 days. That said, I agree a 50-75% water change would be warranted if ammonia is at 2.0ppm.

coralbandit:

TSS is very sensitive stuff. If not stored properly (e.g. exposed to too high or low temperatures during shipping/transit) then it can certainly can go bad. My experience with it has been good though. I wouldn't go far as to call it snake oil, though I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who use it get it and it's mostly dead due to improper handling.

-Zeke



CAM said:


> If you do a 50% change, you will still be in the fringe of too much Ammonia for TSS bacteria to survive. Not counting Ammonia that accumulates after the water change.
> 
> I would do a 75% water change, very important to condition water and temp match, then test 24 hours later. If ammonia and nitrites are at or below 1 ppm, I would add TSS and not change water or test again for at least 48 hours.... give the bacteria time to colonize.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

According to the TSS website and the link I posted in B412's ammonia thread, TSS will not be effective when ammonia or nitrites reach toxic levels of 1 ppm or more. I'm sure that's a guideline and not an exact scientific based fact.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Tetra Tetra SafeStart® : Questions, Answers, How To, FAQs, Tips, Advice, Answers, Buying Guide

Go to the third or fourth question.

Edit: I see an answer further down where the Rep identifies toxic levels as 2 ppm.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Shall I vac substrate or do anything to the filters?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I wouldn't. Sit tight, keep monitoring. It takes a while to get nitrite. the important thing is not to expose any existing bacteria in the tank to chlorinated water -- that'll kill em fairly quickly. Be sure to use dechlorinator (e.g. Prime) properly when doing water changes, otherwise it may never cycle. Just test daily, keep track. You should see ammonia creep up, then nitrite creep up, then ammonia drop off, then nitrite drop off (as you start to see nitrates). Imagine two overlapping bell curves next to each other (representing ammonia + nitrite concentration) on the left, with an upward sloping curve on the right, representing nitrAte. Time on the X axis, concentration (in ppm) on the Y axis.











Except consider toxic levels of ammonia as 1ppm and nitrite as 1ppm. Personally i'd change water when nitrate hits 10-20ppm if possible

Hope that helps.

Read up as much as you can on cycling so you're comfortable with all of the concepts, then all of our advice will make sense.

-Zeke



Burns412 said:


> Shall I vac substrate or do anything to the filters?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I think it would be OK to vacuum but not deep. Just the surface of the gravel. Cleaning up leftover food and Milne would help control ammonia without disturbing very much bacteria. If I recall in my reading, the bulk of bacteria residing in substrate are at the bottom. 

Zwanged.... Bandit..... correct me if I'm off base.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree, CAM.

if there's tons of leftover food just sitting on top of the gravel yeah i would vacuum it. If just a little I'd leave it. Try not to dig deep and disturb it, though. 

Cut back on feeding portions too if your ammonia's rising too quickly. Remember, as a very rough guide, assume a fish's stomach is like the size of its eye 

I can't comment on where the bulk of the bacteria in the substrate are...I'd just assume all over 

-Zeke




CAM said:


> I think it would be OK to vacuum but not deep. Just the surface of the gravel. Cleaning up leftover food and Milne would help control ammonia without disturbing very much bacteria. If I recall in my reading, the bulk of bacteria residing in substrate are at the bottom.
> 
> Zwanged.... Bandit..... correct me if I'm off base.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay thank you . What is the best way to treat the water wile doing a WC?
Treatment at the end of WC little bit in each bucket or.....


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

If you use the bucket method, treat in the bucket, then add to tank.

If you use a python or similar hose system, add the conditioner to the tank just before you begin to fill.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

First of all, Prime is pretty concentrated and inexpensive for what it does. You could theoretically overdose your water by up to 500% of what you should and it should still be OK. Though I generally wouldn't do more than double what the instructions say.

Because Prime is so cheap, I just do the following method:

(1) siphon off / drain whatever water you are doing for water change., e.g. 30-50% of your water, depending on how much you want to change.

(2) Add enough Prime to your main tank water that's left. This should be enough to treat *THE ENTIRE TANK VOLUME*, not just the water being added! If your tap water has a crapload of chloramines/chlorine in it, you can safely do double (2 capfuls per 100 gallons instead of 1 capful / 100 gallons). To make myself feel better I kind of try to disperse the prime across the whole tank instead of just 1 spot, but I don't think it really makes a huge difference. 

(3) Add buckets of clean water to the tank (or use python), you want the temperature to roughly match. If you have trouble getting it to exactly match, I recommend going slightly *warmer* than the tank water. But you really want the new water to be within a few degrees of the old water if possible. I just do it by feel. 

To make the process of water changes a lot simpler, if you have a utility sink nearby, I recommend getting a python! No more buckets! Just google 'python water changer'.

Finally, don't expose your filter pads to chlorinated water. You can clean them in your old tank water in a bucket if they get horribly clogged. 

CAM's method of treating each bucket individually also works, and yes you will use less prime if you use that method. Just remember it's better to have a little too much than too little.

-Zeke







Burns412 said:


> Okay thank you . What is the best way to treat the water wile doing a WC?
> Treatment at the end of WC little bit in each bucket or.....


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay I'm on it. When is the best time to add the conditioner when doing a WC?


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Oops never mind that last post lol


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

just finished the WC. Ammonia down but maybe still a little high. 
I'm thinking about doing a 50% tomorrow to get it even lower. 
Then I hope to start the TSS over the day after that. 
Maybe I should go to a more popular pet store thinking maybe they have fresher bacteria additive.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

TSS has a date on it. Can't remember if it's the production date or expiration date but either way, you can make sure you are getting a fresh bottle. My nearby ( 300 yards away) only ever has a bottle or two out and often none. So I know they haven't been out on the shelf very long.

BTW.... I'm viewing on my phone so pardon if I'm asking a silly question. Do I see two HOBs? I only see one intake tube.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Zwanged is correct on the prime;If you use a python/or aqueon waterchanger then you are to add enough prime to the tank for the entire tank volume.That being said a little more(very little) would be a good thing.Remeber that prime converts ammonia to a less toxic form but will still show up on test.I question (because I don't know) if this less toxic ammonia is "safer" for the use of TSS?
Definately vac/remove any extra food or debris but try not to go to deep(I would imagine that if build up is deep in gravel then it is not causing "serious" issues at the moment.)
I don't consider bacteria supplements snake oil, but there is a good amount of old school keepers who do ,so I mention the other side of the coin.I have ued bio-zyme powder in my salts(once),but can't accurately say if it help or not.That being said I do think regardless that there are good products and bad.So in following advice of other keepers I think using the specific product is as important as following directions and technique,a substatute version(API STRESS ZYME{I think API is a reasonably good company with good quality products})could still offset the actual process.I'll add that the beneficial bacteria does cling to surfaces;this includes aquariium sides and decorations.
I did just read CAMS link to TSS and it clearly says not to add TSS within 24 hours of conditioning water(or adding new treated water in waterchanges).BUT in another question they tell a question asker that it is safe to use in every waterchange(they always say to use conditioner) so I'll just say their ultimate goal is truely for you to buy and use this product no matter what it seems!
The date on bottle is expiration as it says it has a one year shelf life and a 6 month life once opened.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

I will check out the dates try.
And its hard to see the other intake, one is black and one is kinda white. . But its close to the other one you see. I'm running two canister filters. 






CAM said:


> TSS has a date on it. Can't remember if it's the production date or expiration date but either way, you can make sure you are getting a fresh bottle. My nearby ( 300 yards away) only ever has a bottle or two out and often none. So I know they haven't been out on the shelf very long.
> 
> BTW.... I'm viewing on my phone so pardon if I'm asking a silly question. Do I see two HOBs? I only see one intake tube.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks... yep, I see it now that I'm looking for a black tube. Curiosity satisfied.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

CAM said:


> Thanks... yep, I see it now that I'm looking for a black tube. Curiosity satisfied.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Any idea what the ideal temp to cycle a tank is?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

You have fish in the tank. Optimum temp for them should be fine for the bacteria.

I cycled both of mine at 75° to keep a constant temp in preparation of stocking and that worked well.


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