# I can't figure it out :(



## pbr_chick (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey everyone, I was hoping I might find some help on here. All my research has turned up fruitless, and I'm about at the end of my rope with this tank. Today I came home and found four of my guppies - all of whom appeared perfectly healthy this morning, mind you - floating at the top of my tank. Let me give you the stats requested for this type of thread, and then I'll go into what the specific issue appears to be.

Tank size: 80 gallons
Ammonia: 0
NitrIte: 0
NitrAte: 0
PH/GH/KH: 8.6, but stable and the fish have been in there for a long time/I ran out of my test things for GH and KH
Cycled,yes or no: Yes. The tank has been established for the last two years
Number of fish: 10 adult guppies and a LOT of fry (yay!)
Acclimation process: I use drip acclimation over a period of 5-6 hours to offset the difference in PH from my lfs
Physical signs of illness(IE spots,shimmer,ECT): None that I can see, although on occasion I do see some long, stringy poop.
How often between fish additions: Usually months.
Water change schedule: I typically do a 25% water change every two weeks.
Tank temp: Right now, it is at 85. I had a recent outbreak of ich, so I've bumped up the temperature to help combat that.

Ok. So now that that is out of the way, I have two theories about this tank. 
The first: it's cursed. Seriously, I have never had much luck with this tank in all its forms over the last five years. It doesn't matter what kind of decor I have, what filtration system I'm running, what I stock it with, I always come back to the same bizarre problem.
Which leads me to my second theory: something very strange is growing inside my tank. I can't get a picture of it, but I'll try to paint a picture for you. Imagine you were to take a piece of cellophane (just regular, clear plastic wrap) and chop it up into countless tiny bits, ranging in size from that of your thumbnail to narrow strips the length of your index finger. Now, imagine that you then stuck those pieces onto the inside of the glass in your tank.You would see these little, shimmery pieces half stuck, half floating in the water. 
Obviously, this isn't a good thing to have in your tank, so then you try to get rid of it. First, you think it must be some kind of algae, so you use your handy-dandy mag-float and try to scrape it off the glass. Lo and behold! As soon as you touch it, the pieces of tiny cellophane detach from the glass and break into a million tiny pieces, barely larger than a fleck of glitter. 
Clearly, that won't work, so you turn to Plan B. After you hook up your fancy pants Python gravel vac to the sink, you gingerly suck the cellophane stuff up and out of the water. It seems to be working! You get so carried away that you clean all the sides of your hex tank. Suddenly, you hear water dripping in the kitchen. You quickly peek into the kitchen, only to find that the cellophane has turned into a clear gelatin and has clogged up your sink, dumping gallons and gallons of dirty fish water all over your kitchen! Fed up and frustrated, you shut off the water, clean up the kitchen, and go to bed, resolving to fill the tank in the morning.

That happened to me about 6 months ago. It had been the 4th or 5th time that weird cellophane stuff showed up in my tank, and this has been the longest stretch the tank has gone without seeing it return. Unfortunately, it appears to be back with a vengeance. The confusing thing is, I didn't even see any of the stuff on the glass; I only found it while fishing out a dead fish from the bottom of the tank. Now, the nasty stuff seems to be growing on the gravel!

Normally, the easy solution would be to hook up the gravel vac and get to work.The tank is due for it's bi-weekly water change, after all. Unfortunately, I have have at least 30-40 newborn guppy fry (born within the last day or so) lurking at the bottom of the tank. I have black gravel, and they blend in REALLY well.

So, here are my questions:
1. Has anyone ever heard of something like this? If so, how was it dealt with? I've taken this tank completely down and even scrubbed it with bleach (obviously I rinsed it really well) in the past in an attempt to get rid of it, and it still manages to come back on a regular basis.
2. How would you go about cleaning the gravel without harming the wee little babies?

TL;DR: pbr_chick has a weird saran wrap monster in her tank and it is killing her fish. HELP!


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Your ph and temp are much too high for your guppies. ph should be in the 7,5 range for livebearers. A better temp for guppies is 75 or below. If your high ph is because of your water source, dilute it with deminerlized or distilled water.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Is the tank planted?


FWIW I had a 10g with pH 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit purple) kh 19 gh 35 (both could be higher) run for 8-9 years with 30 guppies (6-10 reproducing adults) from the original cycle trio with no mechanical filtration and no water changes. Tank was planted from the start and was typical of 10g I started since the late '70 in various cities in the US.

my .02


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

I have a 10 gal stocked with (too) many guppies and fry, and I love my python. But, this tank is also very heavily planted with the substrate pretty well completely covered. So for this tank I only use a manual syphon and bucket to remove water and gravel vac. Once the bucket is full I let it settle for a few minutes and search carefully for any fish/fry I have syphoned, netting them back into the tank. They survive this rollercoaster ride just fine although I still try to avoid sucking up any of them. I use the python to then replace the water and move on to my other non-guppy tank where I can use it for both removing and replacing water.

As far as the guppies you lost, were these recent additions or older ones? I think the average lifespan is about 2-3 years and the higher the water temp, the faster they grow in the beginning, but this shortens their lifespan a bit. I tend to see my losses in small waves, and then none for months and months. I take this to be some of them reaching the end of their lifespan, as the rest of the tank remains healthy.

That may not be the case with yours, however, and I have not had to deal with any diseases, yet, so sorry I can't help with suggestions for dealing with ich.


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## pbr_chick (Jul 12, 2008)

Sorry for the slow response! My PC caught some stupid registry virus and has to be wiped clean. I'm writing this on my ancient Macbook lol. Thank you for all your replies. I'm just going to answer all the questions in the order of which I received them.

The ich is gone, and the two weeks of raised temps is over, so now I'm (slowly) dropping the temp back down to 76.
As for the PH, I know 8.6 is high. 8.6 is high for most fish. However, I believe that when dealing with PH, stability is more important than a specific number range for most fish, and I generally have fairly decent success with all of my fish at this PH.

No, the tank is not planted. It is a tall tank with really weak lights, so I can't even get moss to grow in there.

I would use a regular siphon, but the tank sits on the floor directly on the floor, so I'm never met with much success when I try that method. The only thing that ever really works for me is the Python. I would appreciate any other suggestions, though!

As for the guppies that I lost, I've seen a mix in ages. Whatever it is that is killing my fish (I've lost two more) is not discriminating based on any factors I can think of. I've lost an even amount of males and females, they all range in age from young juvenile to fully grown adults, and I have a pretty even mix between fish that have been in the tank for over a year and fish that have only been there for a month or so.

I agree that I occasionally see waves of fish losses. The thing that is concerning me the most is the strange cellophane-turns-to-gelatin stuff that is growing in my tank. I really can't figure out what it is, and I am fairly sure that the fish loss is directly related to its presence in the tank. Any time I spot it in the tank, I see an increase in guppy deaths.

Thank you everyone for your replies, and I look forward to hearing more advice/suggestions from this community.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Can you put part of a nylon stocking over the end of your python so na babies get sucked up? Then, use the "thumb over the end of the hose" method to suck water, then stop with your thumb (so any babies stuck to the nylon can get off), then suck, repeating until done.

Also, that stuff brings to mind the weird clear gelatinous stuff that tree nurseries put on the roots of baby trees that they send out to be planted. Do you know the stuff that I mean? It holds water and keeps the roots moist, but if you pick it off, it's really jelly like and will harden if left out of the water. I can't imagine how that stuff would get in your tank, or that it would spread once in there - I was just thinking of it as a reference, since it is clear but is also jelly like.

I'm also curious about your NitrAtes. You say they are at 0ppm. Any established tank should have _some_ Nitrates, as they are the end product of the Nitrogen cycle, and I'd assume yours would be slightly elevated since you only change the water once every two weeks. Which brings me to another point - try changing the water once a week. Most tanks benefit from weekly water changes more than they do from every other week.

This is so weird, and I'm very curious to see if you are able to find out what is going on. Please keep us posted!


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

the clear cellophane stuff is bio-film. it is produced by archaic bacteria-like organisms. the best way i know of to get rid of it is to promote conditions that favore eukaryotic bacteria. you can do this by adding dissolved carbons and organic compounds. the easiest way would be to add leaves of something that produces tannins, such as oak, indian almond, or catappa leaves. increase the level of surface agitation as well, as the bacteria will cause a drop in dissolved oxygen. the gelatinous substance can be used as food by fungus and bacteria, and it can stick to the fishes gills, impeding gill function. increase bacteria that can outcompete the archae and you will likely solve the cellophane thing problem. 

another way to add organic carbon is to use products like excell flourish or API CO2 booster, which add gluteraldehyde as a dissolved carbon. 

you must have a very unique tank to have this problem. i can rarely produce those conditions, even when i try.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The gelatinous stuff is something I have never seen, and it is interesting. I'll defer to Auban's suggestion as it is new to me, but I would love to read a follow up. I'd like to see how Auban's suggestion works, as it makes perfect sense.

The pH is great for guppies. It is high but not crazy high - the fish can be found in limestone streams in the Carribean and their water is hard. They are adapted to high mineral contents, and a high pH usually signals that. I havenever caught guppies, but in similar streams, I've measured pH ranges of 7.8 and up. I've also seen bottoms covered in leaves and lots of decaying carbon sources in the water, which brings us back around to the gelatinous gunk...

Curious hobby we have.


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