# Still Cycling Tank Under Algal Assault !!!!



## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

MY 29 gallon has been planted (heavily) for a week and yesterday I introduced 5 neon tetras to the tank. I am using the PPS fert program: just under 3 ml daily of the macro and micro nutrients. Ten hours of light (55 watt) and some strong indirect sunlight in early morning and late afternoon. 

Algal growth is observed on some plants (baby tears for one) and is forming on the landscaping driftwood and aquarium walls; some of it is long and stringy in structure. pH is 6.98 and has been steadily rising from a start of about pH 6.35 a week ago. CO2 generation is DIY but is constant and bubble counter is more than 1 per second. Drop checker is a medium green.

Recommendations: cut back on lighting or ferts? Increase CO2? 

Any suggestions appreciated,

Ed


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## GreenyFunkyMonkey (Nov 27, 2012)

The rise in pH is normal during cycling. If you have access to it, I would get API Quick Start. It instantly cycles your aquarium. It came on the market last year so it is a relatively new product. 

Amazon.com: API Quick Start Water Conditioner for Aquariums, 16-Ounce: Pet Supplies

The algae is normal, it means you have nitrates, so you are pretty far along in cycling. You do not have much of a choice at the moment. You can do a partial water change, and drag out cycling for another week which will stress your fish with ammonia and nitrites. Or you can sit tight, wait for your first negative tests and then start to do water changes. Algae can be a booger to deal with. Ideally you want to keep nitrates at 0 to keep algae from forming.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

GreenyFunkyMonkey said:


> The rise in pH is normal during cycling. If you have access to it, I would get API Quick Start. It instantly cycles your aquarium. It came on the market last year so it is a relatively new product.
> 
> Amazon.com: API Quick Start Water Conditioner for Aquariums, 16-Ounce: Pet Supplies
> 
> The algae is normal, it means you have nitrates, so you are pretty far along in cycling. You do not have much of a choice at the moment. You can do a partial water change, and drag out cycling for another week which will stress your fish with ammonia and nitrites. Or you can sit tight, wait for your first negative tests and then start to do water changes. Algae can be a booger to deal with. Ideally you want to keep nitrates at 0 to keep algae from forming.


GFM,

What are the tests I should start conducting and where is a good source for obtaining them?

I appreciate your advice,

Ed


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## GreenyFunkyMonkey (Nov 27, 2012)

Most aquarium stores test your water if you bring in a sample. So I would start there. But the important ones to have are kits for testing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. I keep those handy at all times. Though I after the cycle, I mainly test for nitrates. Ammonia is the most toxic and can actually burn your fish... you will start seeing black burns on the tips of their fins and sometimes on their lips. Nitrites are less toxic but are harmful to your fish because they thicken their blood and weaken their hearts. Nitrates are pretty much harmless, but algae love nitrates to grow. Plants love nitrates also, but they ultimately get their nitrates by colonies of bacteria in they gather by their roots. 

Based on what you said, your aquarium should be pretty far along in the cycling process since you have algae. I doubt you have ammonia at all. Maybe some nitrites... but you are pretty close to being done. 

Once your nitrites and ammonia test zero you can start doing your weekly partial water changes. Most people recommend changing 20% of your water per week to keep the nitrates down. Your fish population is well within the size of your aquarium for nitrates to get way out of control. The rule of thumb is 1 inch of fish per gallon of water in your aquarium. Though make sure you include the fish's adult size and not their current size. 

Ok, well I hope this helps with everything.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There is nothing in this hobby that instantly cycles a tank! Short of removing a filter off an established tank and putting on a new one of the same size, it just cannot happen that way.

I wouldn't waste your money.


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## GreenyFunkyMonkey (Nov 27, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> There is nothing in this hobby that instantly cycles a tank! Short of removing a filter off an established tank and putting on a new one of the same size, it just cannot happen that way.
> 
> I wouldn't waste your money.


It did mine. Never had any ammonia or nitrite problems with it. It worked fantastic. It might not work if your tank is overstocked, but it does wonders if you know what you are doing, which in this case Ed does not have anywhere close to excessive amount of fish on start up. 

In the end, if you do not believe me just try it next time you start up your aquarium or do a full water change.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So this is the way people approach this product....start the tank, add the bottle of stuff, check for ammonia and nitrite the same day and assume the tank is cycled because everything was 0.

What I am saying is there are bacteria colonies that have to grow and be created in your tank. There are ways to speed this process up, but there is not a product out there that takes you from start to finish in the same moment. Regardless of what you think, it didn't do what you thought. It is impossible! Nature doesn't work that way. Plus, if what you claim of the product were true you would have a difficult time finding the product at stores because it couldn't stay on shelves.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Ed...couple of things here....

First, cut back your photo period to 8hrs instead of ten. By your description, your getting a good amount of ambient light as well on the tank.

Next, nitrates. Can you provide a number for them? Either if you have a master test kit or take a water sample to your LFS. One thing to note, if it's like PetSmart, they may be using test strips and aren't very accurate but will still give us a ball park

Next... you're fert dosing routine....you mention that you are dosing daily. Are you actually dosing all seven days during the week? What about water changes? How much and how often?

Lastly...phosphates. May be a slight issue but if you're not seeing GSA (green spot) now, then it could be workable. Yes, you will need a seperate test kit for that unfortunately.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Bacteria supplements do NOT cycle a tank instantly. They are an aid, but definitely not a wonder product. They contain a form of nitrifying bacteria that can be suspended for limited amounts of time, and has a short lifespan in your tank, so the bottle itself is a wildcard because some or all of the suspended bacteria could be dead. In addition, the bacteria contained in quick-start products is not the bacteria that eventually sets up shop in your aquarium. So in short, bacteria supplements are a slash-and-burn instant gratification product that are not even close to the wonder product they say they are.

So no, I would not use API Quick Start, or Tetra SafeStart, or ATM Colony, unless you have no fish in there and plan on doing a fishless cycle.

I just Googled black beard algae (which is the long stringy stuff you describe, I think, especially if it is dark green in color), and they suggest backing off fertz and light and increasing CO2 to above 30 ppm.

If you're dosing ferts and NOT testing, I think you are flirting with disaster. API sells a great line of liquid titration kits including some for nitrate and phosphate, both of which you dose, and I strongly advise you get at least those two or you risk overdosing your tank and running into much bigger algae problems. I accientally overdosed on phosphates when I used to do EI dosing and killed a colony of about 100 red cherry shrimp. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> There is nothing in this hobby that instantly cycles a tank! Short of removing a filter off an established tank and putting on a new one of the same size, it just cannot happen that way.
> 
> I wouldn't waste your money.


I wasn't going to go that route. I believe the Eco-complete, which comes wet with a small amount of water, maybe had some starter bacteria in it. Although being sealed in a plastic bag for an extended period of time, wouldn't seem conducive to staying alive. I am trying to decide what my options are at this point. 
Reduce fertilizers?
Reduce photo period?
Start H2O changes?

From what I have read here and there the one thing I need to do is keep my CO2 generation up and very active. This will be a priority. I do not require my tank to be 100% algae free. Some is OK with me. When it starts to grow on the leaves of plants like it has started to do in the last 3 or so days (tank is now 9 days old) I get a little nervous. 
I am presently "reading up" on loaches, snails, and algae eaters to try and decide what natural "army" to create in alleviating any overabundance of algae.
Input from fellow aquarists is definitely a valuable resource as you all have "been there and done that."

Ed


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

James0816 said:


> Ed...couple of things here....
> 
> First, cut back your photo period to 8hrs instead of ten. By your description, your getting a good amount of ambient light as well on the tank.
> 
> ...


ed


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> I just Googled black beard algae (which is the long stringy stuff you describe, I think, especially if it is dark green in color), and they suggest backing off fertz and light and increasing CO2 to above 30 ppm.
> 
> If you're dosing ferts and NOT testing, I think you are flirting with disaster. API sells a great line of liquid titration kits including some for nitrate and phosphate, both of which you dose, and I strongly advise you get at least those two or you risk overdosing your tank and running into much bigger algae problems. I accientally overdosed on phosphates when I used to do EI dosing and killed a colony of about 100 red cherry shrimp. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.


Gizmo,

I should consider getting the nitrate/phosphate kits. Dosing accord to PPS formula which is just under 3 mils each for macro and micro (29 Gal). Need to probably back off on ferts as plants are growing like mad. Ferts in the water makes algae happy as well.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

What is it about vibrant and abundant plant growth that keeps algae in check? I have witnessed the pearling effect on Baby Tears and know that the plants are doing well but what conditions in the water occur after cycling that prevent algae from getting a toe hold? Liquid ferts are available to everything while substrate fertilizers would only help the plants. 

I have a new found respect for those you who have a crystal clear tank overflowing with aquatic life and zero algae. There is a serious learning curve here I'm thinking.

Ed


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

One thing that has always helped me is having a good cleanup crew. Shrimp are algae hogs, snails are great wall cleaners, and plecos are algae destroyers.

But, as stated by others, it's all about the balance. One thing that could be screwing things up right now is that your ammonia and nitrite levels are fluctuating. And, as stated, without testing for parameters, there's no telling whether your tank is even hospitable to life. The only indication you'd have is if your fish started dropping dead.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> One thing that has always helped me is having a good cleanup crew. Shrimp are algae hogs, snails are great wall cleaners, and plecos are algae destroyers.
> 
> But, as stated by others, it's all about the balance. One thing that could be screwing things up right now is that your ammonia and nitrite levels are fluctuating. And, as stated, without testing for parameters, there's no telling whether your tank is even hospitable to life. The only indication you'd have is if your fish started dropping dead.


Deja Vue! Two tetras dead, another in a bad way. I was leery of putting tetras in so soon (wednesday, 1 wk after tank startup). They were eating fine yesterday. Very small amount of food was given. pH is still rising; 7.2 today. Started a new batch of yeast for a bump in CO2.

*H2


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Honestly, I would stop the CO2 and the fertz, you should get your tank cycled first. IMO, you're trying for too much too fast.

And for the love of pete, get a testing kit! I know you want to save money, but if you don't know what you're doing (yet), then there's really no substitute for knowing your water parameters.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> Honestly, I would stop the CO2 and the fertz, you should get your tank cycled first. IMO, you're trying for too much too fast.
> 
> And for the love of pete, get a testing kit! I know you want to save money, but if you don't know what you're doing (yet), then there's really no substitute for knowing your water parameters.


I hear you! No more ferts right now. But I call into question the CO2 halting. What does this spell for my plants? I realize the CO2 contributes to the health of the algae as well but I don't want to jeopardize the sizable investment of plants either. I plan on ordering the test kits this weekend.

Ed


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

If you'd like to keep the CO2 on, then I suppose there's no stopping you. I have no proof that stopping the CO2 would help you or hurt you, I am just saying that's what I would do until my tank stabilizes.

One thing at a time, in my opinion.

What kind of plants did you get? Are they very demanding in the way of light and CO2?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

sounds like you started out at an advanced level,with a uncycled tank?


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> sounds like you started out at an advanced level,with a uncycled tank?


Not sure what you mean. The reading I did before setting up the tank indicated that it was preferable to start out with a heavily planted tank as opposed to a sparsely populated one. The idea being the abundance of plants would enable the tank to reach stability quicker and control algal growth better. I also did not read that adding ferts right away was a bad thing necessarily. It was my understanding that copious amounts of CO2, adequate light, and a reasonable level of ferts were essential to getting the plant life off to a sound start. The plants have been responding with excellent growth so far. The only drawback being the unwanted algal growth as well.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Attached is a snapshot of baby tears growing on driftwood. The wispy filaments of algae can be seen. I know the image quality is pathetic.


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

edthetermite said:


> Not sure what you mean. The reading I did before setting up the tank indicated that it was preferable to start out with a heavily planted tank as opposed to a sparsely populated one. The idea being the abundance of plants would enable the tank to reach stability quicker and control algal growth better. I also did not read that adding ferts right away was a bad thing necessarily. It was my understanding that copious amounts of CO2, adequate light, and a reasonable level of ferts were essential to getting the plant life off to a sound start. The plants have been responding with excellent growth so far. The only drawback being the unwanted algal growth as well.


Your right, it is preferable to start off with lots of plants. Plants are great are great at soaking up all the bad stuff being released by your tank's new cycle. You have to remember that during the next few weeks you tank is going to go through changes. You will have some algae. Without pics or a more detailed description of you light or plants and pretty much anything else it will be hard to recommend anything. I've never had much luck with pps. I'm more of a EI guy as I hate testing. If your pc light (assuming) has a reasonably good reflector, you have issues with not being able to keep up diy co2. Again, not really knowing more details is keeping me from being able to help more. Is the light right on top of the tank? What/how many plants do you have? What's your co2 system consist of? How much of what are you dosing?


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Update:

Algal growth still aggressive.

Nitrate = 0 ppm
Phosphate = < .25 ppm

pH = 7.2

Light period = 8 hr

CO2 = less than bubble/sec

Ferts reduced to every 2 to 3 days (3 ml ea. macro & micro) -30 gal tank

5 neon tetras added last week: 1 left. Local FPS said my water sample looked great. ????

The algae is mainly the "bearded" variety: long, fibrous, wavy brown-green in appearance.

Should photo period be reduced even further? Tank has been cycling 2 weeks now.

Plants: baby tears on driftwood (has most of the wispy algal growth)
java fern
vallisneria (this is one plant not doing well)
rotala rotundifolia
sword, eichinodorus
ludwigia arcuata
annubias barteri nana
microsorium
heteranthera stargrass
dwarf hairgrass
lilaeopsis brasilliensis
ludwigia glandulosa
limnophilia indica
hydrocotyle leucocephala
myriophylum simulans
hygrophilia difformis -water wisteria


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Have you tested for ammonia and nitrite? And I don't mean taking it to the LFS - half the time they don't know what they're doing. 0 nitrate indicates your tank is still cycling.

Are you feeding the cycle at all? Without a source of ammonia, your bacteria colonies won't set up and every time you add fish, they will cause an ammonia or nitrite spike which will wipe them out.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

What Kind of light? (Did you mention that?)

I'd recommend upping the co2, and / or physically raising the light above the tank. Start off at 4" and raise up 2" after that.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> Have you tested for ammonia and nitrite? And I don't mean taking it to the LFS - half the time they don't know what they're doing. 0 nitrate indicates your tank is still cycling.
> 
> Are you feeding the cycle at all? Without a source of ammonia, your bacteria colonies won't set up and every time you add fish, they will cause an ammonia or nitrite spike which will wipe them out.


I was told at a minimum to check for phosphate and nitrate. At present that and ph is all I am testing for.

I have one tetra still doing OK and I feed it. Some food is left over but I only feed very small amounts.

I am considering getting the algae eaters, etc but wanted to let the water cycle some more first.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

FishFlow said:


> What Kind of light? (Did you mention that?)
> 
> I'd recommend upping the co2, and / or physically raising the light above the tank. Start off at 4" and raise up 2" after that.



It's a 55 watt 6500K single bulb w/ highly polished reflector directly on top the tank. Giving me about 2 watts per gallon. Raising it will be tricky as I would have to build some sort of support structure for it.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

edthetermite said:


> wanted to let the water cycle some more first.


I repeat: Are you adding an ammonia source? Without ammonia, your tank will never cycle!


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> I repeat: Are you adding an ammonia source? Without ammonia, your tank will never cycle!


Meaning more fish?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Meaning more fish, or more flake food, or a raw piece of seafood, or straight ammonia. Since you have fish in the tank, more fish would be advisable, but since you don't have any way to test for ammonia or nitrite, I'd say you're gambling with their lives.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> Meaning more fish, or more flake food, or a raw piece of seafood, or straight ammonia. Since you have fish in the tank, more fish would be advisable, but since you don't have any way to test for ammonia or nitrite, I'd say you're gambling with their lives.


I will put more food in, the tetra won't mind. I was hoping only the phosphate & nitrate tests would be necessary. Next week I'll get some "tank cleaners" :animated_fish_swimm as well.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

while cycling without an ammonia test you will probably lose your fish.Ammonia test are ONLY necessary for uncycled tanks.Your ammonia will climb to levels possibly unacceptable for fish.Adding food will work as a source of ammonia,but you will never know to what degree.Adding fish will do the same,but if you don't know your ammonia levels you'll never when to change water(if you need to).The level of ammonia will not matter as much if you have no fish .Until you detect nitrItes(you'll need to test for that or wait) and finally nitrAtes your fish (whatever kind) will be at risk of death or injuries(internal;kindey,liver,bladder).If you choose to add fish you'll need all test mentioned.The tank as Gizmo mentioned will not cycle without source of ammonia."Fish in" cycling usually takes longer and means waterchanges for the health of fish."Fishless cycles" are quicker(you can have much higher levells of ammonia) and don't need to change water as no fish are at risk.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> while cycling without an ammonia test you will probably lose your fish.Ammonia test are ONLY necessary for uncycled tanks.Your ammonia will climb to levels possibly unacceptable for fish.Adding food will work as a source of ammonia,but you will never know to what degree.Adding fish will do the same,but if you don't know your ammonia levels you'll never when to change water(if you need to).The level of ammonia will not matter as much if you have no fish .Until you detect nitrItes(you'll need to test for that or wait) and finally nitrAtes your fish (whatever kind) will be at risk of death or injuries(internal;kindey,liver,bladder).If you choose to add fish you'll need all test mentioned.The tank as Gizmo mentioned will not cycle without source of ammonia."Fish in" cycling usually takes longer and means waterchanges for the health of fish."Fishless cycles" are quicker(you can have much higher levells of ammonia) and don't need to change water as no fish are at risk.


Good point. Having one tetra presently I am not too concerned. Although I hate to see even a small neon die needlessly.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

It appears you have alot of plants in the tank. If they are established and growing, they could explain your Zero NO3. (Plants eat no3) If you truly have no No3 and your plants are trying to grow, you have what we call a deficiency. Your tank must have Ammonia or NO3 for plants. Add your no3 supplement until you measure something for no3.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

FishFlow said:


> It appears you have alot of plants in the tank. If they are established and growing, they could explain your Zero NO3. (Plants eat no3) If you truly have no No3 and your plants are trying to grow, you have what we call a deficiency. Your tank must have Ammonia or NO3 for plants. Add your no3 supplement until you measure something for no3.


I began reducing dosing to every 2 to 3 days since the onslaught of algal growth. The plants are growing quite vigorously as pruning is required every 3 to 4 days lately. If the algae doesn't slow down soon it will eventually overtake the entire tank. It started on the baby tears located on driftwood in the center of the tank but has now spread to surrounding plants. It is becoming increasingly difficult to remove. My macro solution is premixed with the PPS formula but I could make a new solution of just NO3, if necessary.


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

That algae looks like Cladophora. It's usually caused by low co2 and nutrient levels. 

Go back to dosing normally, (you should be dosing micros and macros and with your lighting, a carbon source) physically remove as much as you can (repeatedly) and try overdosing excel. (like 2 or 3x) Also make sure your flow in the tank is good. 

Just my $0.02


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

oldpunk said:


> That algae looks like Cladophora. It's usually caused by low co2 and nutrient levels.
> 
> Go back to dosing normally, (you should be dosing micros and macros and with your lighting, a carbon source) physically remove as much as you can (repeatedly) and try overdosing excel. (like 2 or 3x) Also make sure your flow in the tank is good.
> 
> Just my $0.02


I believe your diagnosis is right. Clado is _one_ of the algal types I have. Flourish Excel seems to be a good candidate right now with no fish (well, just one tetra) in the tank. I was confused by the suggestion to restart normal micro/macro dosing. Some have suggested feeding the plants thru the substrate and stopping liquid ferts entirely for now. 
I seem to have a dead flow area in the left side of the tank as the Eheim discharges center to right of center and the return nozzle is on the back lefthand side.


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

edthetermite said:


> I was confused by the suggestion to restart normal micro/macro dosing. Some have suggested feeding the plants thru the substrate and stopping liquid ferts entirely for now.


I thought you said said you slowed it down. Have you ever heard of the estimative index? Adding root tabs will help but it's not a solution. You need to dose more.



> I seem to have a dead flow area in the left side of the tank as the Eheim discharges center to right of center and the return nozzle is on the back lefthand side.


Maybe try aiming it somewhere else or add a powerhead? Good flow is important to a planted tank.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

oldpunk said:


> I thought you said said you slowed it down. Have you ever heard of the estimative index? Adding root tabs will help but it's not a solution. You need to dose more.
> 
> 
> Maybe try aiming it somewhere else or add a powerhead? Good flow is important to a planted tank.


EI being the Barr method? Yes, I have heard of it. I went with the PPS method to try and avoid overdosing and the subsequent need for more frequent H2O changes. I can restart normal dosing of just under 3 ml each macro/micro.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I still haven't seen what light you have, but unless it is upper level you shouldn't need to dose more than once a week. The algae just may be a result of too many nutrients in the water. Are you doing 50% (min) water changes weekly also?


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> I still haven't seen what light you have, but unless it is upper level you shouldn't need to dose more than once a week. The algae just may be a result of too many nutrients in the water. Are you doing 50% (min) water changes weekly also?


I am using a 55 watt 6500K with polished reflector. I have just elevated it 4 inches above the tank instead of letting it sit directly on the tank top. 

Algae continues to grow with utter abandon. I am losing this battle. If the Excel Flourish I ordered doe not work then a complete tank tear down may become necessary where I can dip the plants in a diluted bleach solution. I am getting desperate and this thing is only a couple weeks old. *question


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## claygriffith01 (Apr 24, 2012)

Invest in a green killing machine uv sterilizer. No more algae in the water column.


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

claygriffith01 said:


> Invest in a green killing machine uv sterilizer. No more algae in the water column.


The only thing that will help with is a bacteria bloom or green water. It will have zero impact on the problem the OP has.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

As jrman said if you dose regulary 50%(or so) water changes are necessary on a weekly basis.They should be scheduled in just like dosing.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> As jrman said if you dose regulary 50%(or so) water changes are necessary on a weekly basis.They should be scheduled in just like dosing.


Weekly water changes, especially 50%, are not an option for me. The appeal of PPS over the Barr Method was that with correct levels of nutrient addition water changes could be extended. The premise being that the plant life would consume most, if not all, of the nutrients and leave none for algae nor accumulate in concentration.

I want to be proactive with this tank and have a successful planting but I am not dedicated to weekly water changes. If things become too labor intensive I'll tear it down or make a paludarium perhaps.

I am reading the 'Optimum Aquarium' right now and it is an excellent read. That book pointed out that a new aquarist is likely to receive contradictory information from others on how to maintain the tank. This has been proven out by the suggestions received on this and other forums. Which unfortunately leads to confusion for the new aquarium enthusiast. So the sorting out process is definitely not a clear cut path. I do appreciate the input from experienced aquarists online but I need to somehow determine what is the correct direction for me to follow with my battle against algae.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LOL, how can a 50% water change on a 29g be too labor intensive? If you have some type of disability or limited access to water I understand, but normally will only take 10-15min per week.

I think you just need to cut your lighting period to 5-6hrs per day and slowly but surely the algae will stop. Generally, looking for changes in the algae that is already there is pointless or to say you might no see much difference. The idea in controlling once it is there is more on stopping it from getting worse. I would also stop dosing. If you have ammonia present, the plants will consume that as their food before they use up nitrates. What are you ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings?


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

edthetermite said:


> Weekly water changes, especially 50%, are not an option for me. The appeal of PPS over the Barr Method was that with correct levels of nutrient addition water changes could be extended. The premise being that the plant life would consume most, if not all, of the nutrients and leave none for algae nor accumulate in concentration.
> 
> I want to be proactive with this tank and have a successful planting but I am not dedicated to weekly water changes. If things become too labor intensive I'll tear it down or make a paludarium perhaps.
> 
> I am reading the 'Optimum Aquarium' right now and it is an excellent read. That book pointed out that a new aquarist is likely to receive contradictory information from others on how to maintain the tank. This has been proven out by the suggestions received on this and other forums. Which unfortunately leads to confusion for the new aquarium enthusiast. So the sorting out process is definitely not a clear cut path. I do appreciate the input from experienced aquarists online but I need to somehow determine what is the correct direction for me to follow with my battle against algae.


This is what you are doing currently, correct?



> PPS-Pro system is very easy to use and is the least expensive system in comparison to any other fertilizer. It is designed especially for aquascapers who want a system that is performing well, doesn’t need testing and tweaking and also works with all lights and substrates, no water changes and large water changes. Entirely 100% planted aquariums with reasonable fish load.
> 
> Chemicals: Can be ordered from any supplier of choice.
> Digital scale: Can be ordered from eBay, Office Depot, Staples, etc. very inexpensive, just a basic one in grams.
> ...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Your aquarium is not"settled" .You can follow the formula as far as you choose, but is it working as stated?Count this as the mis info you will recieve as "a new aquarist"who does not know the correct answer.You can't dose multiple times a week with out water changes.Most who have the attraction to heavily planted tanks desire some fish(I wish them luck).Please read a little about fish keeping and see why water changes will not harm,but enhance your aquarium,or as I said before;count this as the mis information you'll receive.Can't change water?Good luck to your fish(those that live) they'll need it!


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## oldpunk (Dec 9, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Count this as the mis info you will recieve as "a new aquarist"who does not know the correct answer.


Are you referring to me, sir? 

I may be new to this site, but am not a 'new aquarist'. I've been keeping planted tanks since 2002 and have been a member of multiple planted tank forums since 2008. 

Obviously if the OP doesn't want to change water, there's going to be issues. We all know that. But aren't we here to help though? 

This is my 'low tech' tank.










I haven't changed the water in this tank in I don't know how long. The fish are thriving. The plants don't have any algae and they just grow slowly. I feed the fish, top-off when necessary, and dose some micros a couple times a week. Figuring out how to be 'lazy' doesn't come easy. You have to mess with stuff. 

Probably the #1 thing folks don't do is adjust their lighting and dosing to meet their goals. 

You don't want to use co2? Fine, the most important thing to do is figure out how much light you can get away with in 'your tank'. Then you'll have to figure out what plants are going to live under these conditions. Not something easy. It takes time along with some trial and error. 


In my honest opinion, the OP's tank isn't going to be successful without some major changes. 

What's going wrong currently? A lot. It looks like there's some significant melting going on in there. Dead plant matter is great food for algae. That HC isn't going to survive, period. It was also grown emmersed. That's going to lead to more melting and more food the algae. There's probably a wicked imbalance going on with ferts. Vals don't like excel either. 

The best advice I can give at this point is going to be:

-Physically remove as much algae as possible.
-Do some research and figure what the plants in your tank actually require carewise.
-Do a big water change (like 75% after you remove all the algae and dead plant matter.
-Do atleast 25% water changes weekly for the next few weeks. 
-Do a lot of reading. Figure out what your goals are and what you're going to need to do to achieve them. If you can't figure out what you need to do, ask. It's most important to set a goal. If you can't figure out what types of plants you want to keep and how you want to keep them, it's very difficult for people to offer advise and how to obtain some balance in your tank.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

oldpunk said:


> Are you refering to me?
> 
> Obviously if the OP doesn't want to change water, there's going to be issues. We all know that. Figuring out how to be 'lazy' doesn't come easy.
> 
> ...


NO! I refer to my info and the skepticism of the OP.You're all good Oldpunk and have followed your post with interest and learning.Please don't think my post is directed towards anyone but OP who desires the "fruit" but doesn't want to"water the tree"!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Not to seem like such a prick(think what you will),but I wish I could build without so much measuring and cutting!Some won't get this, others know what I'm saying.
The effort is what makes results so gratifying,(winning lotto brings little appreciation to the true amount of money compared to EARNING IT!)


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> LOL, how can a 50% water change on a 29g be too labor intensive? If you have some type of disability or limited access to water I understand, but normally will only take 10-15min per week.
> 
> I think you just need to cut your lighting period to 5-6hrs per day and slowly but surely the algae will stop. Generally, looking for changes in the algae that is already there is pointless or to say you might no see much difference. The idea in controlling once it is there is more on stopping it from getting worse. I would also stop dosing. If you have ammonia present, the plants will consume that as their food before they use up nitrates. What are you ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings?


I'm in my late fifties and don't relish the idea of replacing the water by hand.
My tank was extremely low in everything when checked by the LFS. I have nitrate and phosphate test kits; nitrates were nil and phosphates extremley low as well. I may just cut the photo period back even more; right now it is 8 hrs.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

oldpunk said:


> This is what you are doing currently, correct?


Yes, I was giving just a tad under 3 mils each macro and micro nutrient additions daily. That has been cut back to every 3 days or so.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Your aquarium is not"settled" .You can follow the formula as far as you choose, but is it working as stated?Count this as the mis info you will recieve as "a new aquarist"who does not know the correct answer.You can't dose multiple times a week with out water changes.Most who have the attraction to heavily planted tanks desire some fish(I wish them luck).Please read a little about fish keeping and see why water changes will not harm,but enhance your aquarium,or as I said before;count this as the mis information you'll receive.Can't change water?Good luck to your fish(those that live) they'll need it!


It's not that I can't change the water weekly but rather that I prefer to do it bi-weekly or monthly. As PPS was explained by it's creators the water parameters can remain safe for both fish and plants if the correct dosage of nutrients is provided and an appropriate population of fish is maintained for my size tank. I understand the chemical imbalances that can incur as far as ammonia and nitrite production if the water is not monitored and replenished appropriately. With PPS setup correctly water testing eventually becomes unnecessary for the most part after the tank is stabilized and needed amounts of nutrients are specifically determined. This is in theory anyway as I have no practical experience with PPS. There is a learning curve I am in the middle of currently.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

oldpunk said:


> Obviously if the OP doesn't want to change water, there's going to be issues.
> 
> 
> [ I don't think it unrealistic to shoot for bi-weekly water changes. ]
> ...


I need to back up and lower expectations a little as this tank is so young still.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Okay, I just finished a 30 percent water change. Probably not as much as some would like to see but it is a start. I reduced the photo period to six hours. The tank still receives strong indirect early morning and late afternoon southern sun so I hope the plant life will remain healthy.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

many here use "python water changing systems" .They hook up to sink and drain and fill with no buckets.Good luck!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

stop adding ferts for a couple of weeks. I would not add ferts more than once a week. Your light level, which drives the needs for all of that stuff anyway, is not high enough to require it.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> many here use "python water changing systems" .They hook up to sink and drain and fill with no buckets.Good luck!


I would need about 35 feet of hose to do it that way.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

They come with pretty long hoses(I think 25 feet) and probably sell extensions.They make it alot easier for many people.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

edthetermite said:


> I would need about 35 feet of hose to do it that way.


The Aqueon water changer comes standard with 50ft of hose. Mine has 75ft. Using one of these with just a 29g is overkill IMO, but would make it effortless.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Good news! Things have slowed down considerably now. The algal growth is mostly contained to the baby tears growing on the driftwood in the center of the tank. A small amount is growing on the glass but is easily manageable. The water change, light raising, shorter photo period, and severe cutback of nutrient additions has all combined to get things more under control. 

I now need to decide if I want to go ahead and apply the Flourish Excel that should be here any day now or hold off on that and and see if introducing a population of algae eaters would be a better direction. In retrospect I should of put the algae eaters in from the very beginning. 

I do need to test the water for GH & KH as I have no idea what values they are and how much buffering capacity is present. Water is 7.3 ph with a moderate continuous CO2 addition.

I definitely feel more positive now than a week ago. I just finished reading the 'Optimum Aquarium' and it was an eye opener even if the information is dated.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

i don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but plants have to adjust before they start running at full capacity. if you take a plant from hard water(low osmotic pressure) and stick it in soft water(high osmotic pressure), the leaves will often melt because the osmotic pressure is too much for the cells in the leaves to handle. the cell walls in stems are much thicker than the cell walls in leaves, so the stems will usually survive and produce new leaves, which will grow in accustomed to the higher osmotic pressure. this is very common in crypts, which is where the term crypt melt comes from. i have never had problems with crypt melt when i had hard water, but often see it in tanks with soft water. a plant taken from soft water and put into hard water ends up with dehydrated cells that don't transport nutrients as fast(normally doesn't melt though).

what does this mean for the planted tank enthusiast? if you have softer water than the plants are used to, they will often not be able to grow for until they adjust. this is one of the reason that people often have problems with algae for the first few weeks after setting up a new tank. the plants need time to adjust. 

when a plant suffers this way, the only actual growth will come from new leaves, and the old leaves will be incapable of contributing to the new growth, so the plant will use less nutrients overall.

you can curb the algae problem during the transition by reducing photoperiod, as you have done. when the plants are back up to full swing you will likely see most of your algae go away on its own.

if you end up with hair, staghorn, or BBA, you may have to take more drastic measures to get rid of it since its requirements are similar to higher plants. you can usually get the plants to outgrow these types of algae, so it shouldn't be too hard to dose with excel later on to get rid of it if you have to. i actually culture algae and i can tell you that hair algae grows MUCH faster with CO2 injection and ammonia supplementation than it does without. it has some other limiting factors though, nutrients that the plants suck up faster than they do, like iron, phosphorus, and molybdenum, which is why a planted tank full of happy plants usually has little algae(or at least slow growing algae).

in a nutshell, ill just say the one thing that has saved so many tanks of mine that would otherwise have had me ripping my hair out:

patience. you can never really tell how a tank is going to do until you give it a while to steady itself.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Auban said:


> i don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but plants have to adjust before they start running at full capacity. if you take a plant from hard water(low osmotic pressure) and stick it in soft water(high osmotic pressure), the leaves will often melt because the osmotic pressure is too much for the cells in the leaves to handle. the cell walls in stems are much thicker than the cell walls in leaves, so the stems will usually survive and produce new leaves, which will grow in accustomed to the higher osmotic pressure. this is very common in crypts, which is where the term crypt melt comes from. i have never had problems with crypt melt when i had hard water, but often see it in tanks with soft water. a plant taken from soft water and put into hard water ends up with dehydrated cells that don't transport nutrients as fast(normally doesn't melt though).


The information on osmotic pressure variance is new to me. This is a parameter never mentioned in the Optimum Aquarium IIRC.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Definitely need patience. The big thing that took me a little to take in was usually things like algae or decaying plant health don't appear overnight, although that is what it seems like. Usually anything you do to reverse some of these things will not have an immediate visual indication you have fixed the problem. Sometimes it will take 2-3 weeks to where you can actually see things improve.

I think that once you get things under control you may be able to extend your lighting period slowly closer to what it once was. I would still only dose nutrients once per week and do a healthy water change at the end of the week.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Aubans' post is excellent.Osmoregulation also applies to fish and I never considered it with plants.Also the time to adjust(for plants) as almost no one buys plants and watches them grow without a little concern over whether they're dying for the first couple weeks.Seemed like that would have been the most useful info to start with.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

im not sure why nobody considers osmoregulation. my guess is that plants are pretty resilient and will usually bounce back. you can acclimate a plant to softer water without having its older leaves melt, but it takes a while. they are incredibly adaptive though. a plant that lives in extremely soft acidic water can often grow just fine in hard alkaline water. still, sudden transitions usually set them back.


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## Rufus' Mom (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't disagree that adding some algae eating fish might help, but if the tank still isn't cycled, then you'll just end up with algae and dead or severely stressed fish. In my experience, the best algae eaters for a planted tank include otocinclus, Siamese algae eaters, and Amano shrimp, which all happen to be sensitive to ammonia and nitrate. 

Others have said it, and I agree - your very next purchase needs to be a Master test kit so you can measure the ammonia and nitrites as your tank cycles, and you'll have to be prepared to do frequent water changes to keep both your plants and your fish thriving until the cycle is completed.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Acclimating plants would be a stretch for me. Only one plant I have ever owned has melted when it hit my tanks - Crypts. The most notorious melter out there.

It is more then just water that decide how the plant does initially. New plants in my tanks straighten up and look like they have been in there from the beginning in about one lighting cycle, but my tanks have CO2, high light, and water that gets regular doses of ferts. Obviously, the time required for plants to adapt varies. In my low light, low-tech tanks it takes quite a bit longer to know if the plant is going to be okay or not and may take weeks to show any new growth, despite looking healthy.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Probably also really dependant on the tank ?? I've certainly had some plant takes their time getting used to my water. 
KB sword took almost 6 months to adjust and start growing.
Red Val melted, and wasn't seen again in the tank for almost a year, now it's almost taking over the tank.
Crypts melt and come back rather quickly.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

I have 10 amanos arriving Friday. Did a 25% WC last night (Sunday) ; I plan on doing another water change Thursday (25%). I have some Excel now but haven't decided to double dose w/ it before the shrimp go in. I understand Vallisneria takes a hard hit w/ that stuff.

The supplier is also going to give me some filter bacteria as well. 

Tank is still stable with algal growth in check and once a week dosing, usually dose after WC. I do get approximately 3/10's pH jump w/ water change. I hope amanos have no serious problems with this. KH/GH test kit will be here in a couple days to determine what if anything I need to do to add pH buffering to the water.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Possibly letting water "age" for 24 hrs. will level out pH.An airline(making bubbles)will often lower pH of tap.Even just set a sample(1 or 2 g) and let it set for 24 hrs to see if it changes from right out tap.This often happens,and helps to explain why tanks have different pH then source.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Excel Flourish was applied Monday at 2x recommended concentration level; 
On Tuesday at normal concentration level. Tuesday evening thread algae on Baby Tears was noticeably diminished. Today (Wed) almost all the thread algae is gone. 
The only effect on plants seems to be the red rotundifola (sp?) and possibly the Vallisneria Spiralis. The jury is still out.

The effect of Excel on algae is immediate and substantial in my case. I do not want to rely on it going into the future. Hopefully as the tank reaches equilibrium and the invertebrates do their thing all will be well.

My KH is quite high: above 14 or 15 degrees. So I have plenty of buffering right now. pH is around 7.5 and nothing detected as far as phosphates or nitrates. With the high KH it is my understanding that I will need to keep the CO2 generation fairly active to help with keeping the pH down. According to the interpolation chart I am in the 12 to 14 mg/L CO2 concentration level. Which should be adequate. Is 30 the optimal target for a planted tank? 

Would carefully adding an acid to lower the KH somewhat be beneficial to my situation? My water out of the tap (city well water or my own well) runs around 8.2 - 8.5 pH.


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## edthetermite (Nov 5, 2012)

Update:

Since applying Excel almost two weeks ago the algae problem has been almost eliminated. I bumped the photo period up to 9 hrs and applying ferts every other day. 
There are about 7 amanos and 10 ghost shrimp now plus some inca gold and assassin snails to keep things tidy.
The tank has a fish load of 6 tetras and 6 guppies.
It will be interesting to see how stable the nitrate & phosphate stays.

At this point the tank looks super and it will be fine tuning the combination of lighting, ferts, and water changes over time that allows me to keep the water parameters dialed in.

I really appreciate everyone's input on getting over the start up algae hump!!!!

Ed


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Most flake foods are a major source of keepers phosphate issues,as all use them as preservative.Seachem Phosgaurd works well.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> Most flake foods are a major source of keepers phosphate issues,as all use them as preservative.Seachem Phosgaurd works well.


i believe thats part of the reason i rarely have issues with algae(besides the algae i intentionally grow)

i have never put flake in most of my tanks. i havent even fed my fish frozen foods since i moved to california. i used to, but after moving out here i switched entirely to live foods.


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