# Dead clown fish



## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Yesterday one of the clownfish in my display tank showed a new behavior. He was in the corner, vertical, and 'bumping' the surface of the water. He did this for about 10 minutes then returned to the tank and his mates.
Today, when I cleaned the tank, he started showing extreme distress. I was cleaning the algae off the sides of the tank. I still haven't made it into Houston to buy algae eating snails. He started staying at the surface of the water, then sank to the bottom and just laid there. None of the other fish were affected and there was nothing wrong with him that I could see. I transferred him to the QT tank with the other clown that was being bullied so badly last week.
He started showing the 'bumping' behavior again. I took some video with my smartphone. It is posted on you tube under the name texasfishguy. He died 30 minutes after I took the video. He was in the tank for four hours prior to death.
Display tank
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.022
ammonia 0PPM
nitrite 0PPM
nitrate 5PPM
Temp 78

10 percent water change weekly

QT tank
Salinity 1.022
ammonia 1ppm
nitrite 1PPM
Nitrate 15PPM
Temp 78

first water change 20%. 

I am posting a different question about my yellow tang.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I would have left him in the display tank since the water parameters look like they were better. How long had you had him prior to this? It could be that he was sick before you got him.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Sorry to hear it. These things happen, some just don't acclimate to their new tank and water. Did you drip acclimate them? Most of us don't keep the same crap water parameters as LFS do, so a good drip will help the survival rate.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Manafel said:


> I would have left him in the display tank since the water parameters look like they were better. How long had you had him prior to this? It could be that he was sick before you got him.


I had the fish a little over two weeks. I put him in the QT tank because the water in the display tank was dirty from cleaning the algae off the tank glass. It is a 150 mile round trip to go get something to control the algae and someone has to take me. I don't drive.
Up until the day before he died he was apparently happy and healthy. There was already on clown in the QT tank that has been there for a week. He is recovering from being bullied by the other clowns.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Sorry to hear it. These things happen, some just don't acclimate to their new tank and water. Did you drip acclimate them? Most of us don't keep the same crap water parameters as LFS do, so a good drip will help the survival rate.


Aquarium World where I bought the fish has an acclimate procedure that they require to be followed for their guarantee. They only guarantee 7 day survival. I should have done the drip acclimate instead.
I am less confident now that I can keep my fish alive.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> Aquarium World where I bought the fish has an acclimate procedure that they require to be followed for their guarantee. They only guarantee 7 day survival. I should have done the drip acclimate instead.
> I am less confident now that I can keep my fish alive.


Did he eat at all? 2 weeks is usually the breaking point on them starving out.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Did he eat at all? 2 weeks is usually the breaking point on them starving out.


He ate every time I fed them. He didn't look like he was starved. I have good video of him posted on you tube under the name of texasfishguy. He looked as healthy as all the other clowns. At least to my untrained eye.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

If you have seen the video I posted of the clownfish in question you would have seen a second clown in the video. That clown died today. This time I know what killed him and there was nothing I could do. 
The tank started cycling. My readings from yesterday are already posted above.
Today the readings were

PH 8.0
Ammonia .25PPM
Nitrite 5PPM
Nitrate over 40PPM
Salinity 1.021
Temp 78

I would say the nitrite spike killed him, but in a 10 gallon tank, the changes happen too fast. I tried moving him to the display tank, but the other clowns started trying to kill him so I put him back in the QT tank. He died less than 10 minutes later.
What should I have done?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> If you have seen the video I posted of the clownfish in question you would have seen a second clown in the video. That clown died today. This time I know what killed him and there was nothing I could do.
> The tank started cycling. My readings from yesterday are already posted above.
> Today the readings were
> 
> ...


Had a cycled QT is all you could have done.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Had a cycled QT is all you could have done.


QT tank is still cycling. A third clown died today, both damsels are sick and the tang is acting weird. I looked at the disease descriptions but I can not tell which one they have. I don't think it is ick since I am familiar with that disease in freshwater fish and this does not resemble it. My best guess is Marine Velvet.
I also read there is no treatment for this. Where do I go from here? No of my cameras will focus well enough to get a clear picture.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Also have white fuzzy looking stuff growing on my live rock. And slender white threads on the surface of the live rock.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

And now both damsels are dead.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> And now both damsels are dead.


*J/D**blue sorry


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> Also have white fuzzy looking stuff growing on my live rock. And slender white threads on the surface of the live rock.


This is probably from phosphate issue, you haven't posted that yet. But, you start over. Extremely slow this time. One fish every 2 weeks. Let the tank settle for a couple of weeks, then off we go. I couldn't tell you how many fish I have gone through, been BIG$$$$, my wife goes crazy everytime I lost one. It happens, it sucks, but it happens.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> This is probably from phosphate issue, you haven't posted that yet. But, you start over. Extremely slow this time. One fish every 2 weeks. Let the tank settle for a couple of weeks, then off we go. I couldn't tell you how many fish I have gone through, been BIG$$$$, my wife goes crazy everytime I lost one. It happens, it sucks, but it happens.


There is a test for phosphates? Actually, I now know that there is, and a test for calcium, hardness, iron (big possibility here. I can pick up small rocks all over my place with a magnet and I am using well water.) , and tests for a lot of things that only have initials and I don't know what they are. I could spend a couple hundred on test kits. And then hundreds more on 'fixes' to balance the water. I am having difficulty in separating the 'marketing BS' from actual truth.
I am going to wait and see if the Tang and the last Clown die. My QT tank is contaminated and will not be 'clean' for 6 to 8 weeks. I do not have a tank big enough to QT the Tang. So basically, my fish are going to die, and there is nothing I can do to stop it. I will never buy from Aquarium World again. This had to come from them. They are the only ones I ever bought fish from and with a life cycle of four weeks without a host, the tank was clean until I put these fish in it.
So, maybe next year, I will again be looking for fish. But right now, all I can do is watch the rest of a $200 investment in fish die.
This hobby sucks.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> There is a test for phosphates? Actually, I now know that there is, and a test for calcium, hardness, iron (big possibility here. I can pick up small rocks all over my place with a magnet and I am using well water.) , and tests for a lot of things that only have initials and I don't know what they are. I could spend a couple hundred on test kits. And then hundreds more on 'fixes' to balance the water. I am having difficulty in separating the 'marketing BS' from actual truth.
> I am going to wait and see if the Tang and the last Clown die. My QT tank is contaminated and will not be 'clean' for 6 to 8 weeks. I do not have a tank big enough to QT the Tang. So basically, my fish are going to die, and there is nothing I can do to stop it. I will never buy from Aquarium World again. This had to come from them. They are the only ones I ever bought fish from and with a life cycle of four weeks without a host, the tank was clean until I put these fish in it.
> So, maybe next year, I will again be looking for fish. But right now, all I can do is watch the rest of a $200 investment in fish die.
> *This hobby sucks*.


Ouch
Need to Test:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Phosphate
Alkalinity- for your Coralline Algea
Calcium
PH
Specific Gravity-Salinity


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Ouch
> Need to Test:
> Ammonia
> Nitrite
> ...


I have been testing for Salinity, PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate twice a week since I set up the aquarium. When the first symptoms showed up, I did not know enough to recognize that I had a problem.
I'll get the phosphate, calcium, and alkalinity tests as soon as possible. 10 gallon water changes at least once a week, and a lot more over the last 4 days. In all I have done 160 gallons worth (5 gallon bucket of salt)
The fourth clownfish died this morning and the tang will probably not last the day.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> I have been testing for Salinity, PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate twice a week since I set up the aquarium. When the first symptoms showed up, I did not know enough to recognize that I had a problem.
> I'll get the phosphate, calcium, and alkalinity tests as soon as possible. 10 gallon water changes at least once a week, and a lot more over the last 4 days. In all I have done 160 gallons worth (5 gallon bucket of salt)
> The fourth clownfish died this morning and the tang will probably not last the day.


I forgot one. Magnesium
And, stop doing all those water changes. You have done enough. Its not going to help if the water you are using is actually the culprit killing the fish, ph may be way off, hardness may be crazy. So until you test for those things, lets leave well enough alone for a bit. Just continue your normal routine, maybe this will put less stress on the Tang.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> I forgot one. Magnesium
> And, stop doing all those water changes. You have done enough. Its not going to help if the water you are using is actually the culprit killing the fish, ph may be way off, hardness may be crazy. So until you test for those things, lets leave well enough alone for a bit. Just continue your normal routine, maybe this will put less stress on the Tang.


I'll order the test kits today. PH has been steady at 8.0 since day 1. Hardness hasn't been tested but I have been using my well water for my freshwater fish for 10 years without a problem.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> I'll order the test kits today. PH has been steady at 8.0 since day 1. Hardness hasn't been tested but I have been using my well water for my freshwater fish for 10 years without a problem.


I had a freshwater tank once, and I found that the fish were bullet proof. 
Reef fish, once the've acclimated to your tank, are pretty much safe,its getting to that point that will drive you to drinking. But, once you have had a fish for over 3-4 weeks, I have found that its a good bet he'll survive.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> I had a freshwater tank once, and I found that the fish were bullet proof.
> Reef fish, once the've acclimated to your tank, are pretty much safe,its getting to that point that will drive you to drinking. But, once you have had a fish for over 3-4 weeks, I have found that its a good bet he'll survive.


On freshwater fish, it depends on what you keep. I had a pair of Anglefish that were 8 inches top to bottom. They kept laying eggs, but since they were both females, and they killed every male I put in with them, I never was able to hatch a brood. Yes, freshwater fish are easy once you learn the basics. I have had freshwater tanks for over 30 years. I have lost more money this week in saltwater fish, than I have lost in 30 years of keeping freshwater fish. Of course, that isn't saying much, since freshwater fish are cheap compared to saltwater fish.
Saltwater, not so easy. My first clown died two days short of three weeks in the tank. The last one died this morning, 3 weeks and one day after I put him in the tank. The tang has been in the tank 2 days short of 4 weeks and, to my surprise, he is still alive. I didn't think he would make it through the day. Tomorrow may be another story.
Without a QT tank, how do you keep disease out of your display tank. Is a freshwater dip enough? How long can a yellow tang survive in a 10 gallon QT tank? He is a juvenile. About 2 1/2 inches.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> On freshwater fish, it depends on what you keep. I had a pair of Anglefish that were 8 inches top to bottom. They kept laying eggs, but since they were both females, and they killed every male I put in with them, I never was able to hatch a brood. Yes, freshwater fish are easy once you learn the basics. I have had freshwater tanks for over 30 years. I have lost more money this week in saltwater fish, than I have lost in 30 years of keeping freshwater fish. Of course, that isn't saying much, since freshwater fish are cheap compared to saltwater fish.
> Saltwater, not so easy. My first clown died two days short of three weeks in the tank. The last one died this morning, 3 weeks and one day after I put him in the tank. The tang has been in the tank 2 days short of 4 weeks and, to my surprise, he is still alive. I didn't think he would make it through the day. Tomorrow may be another story.
> Without a QT tank, how do you keep disease out of your display tank. Is a freshwater dip enough? How long can a yellow tang survive in a 10 gallon QT tank? He is a juvenile. About 2 1/2 inches.


Welp, in a QT, your fish are there for being medicated for a couple weeks, then they go into the DT. The Tang will be fine in there for that period. As for freshwater dips, yes, those are the best for killing parasites, but I'm not a fan, because your stressing the heck out of that fish. And just for info, I have never used a QT, still don't. I bought the fish and put them in the DT, if your fish are healthy they survive the issues brought with a new fish. The biggest issue with a new fish is getting them to eat, and then usually over the next few weeks you build up their health, and that alone stays off issues.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Welp, in a QT, your fish are there for being medicated for a couple weeks, then they go into the DT. The Tang will be fine in there for that period. As for freshwater dips, yes, those are the best for killing parasites, but I'm not a fan, because your stressing the heck out of that fish. And just for info, I have never used a QT, still don't. I bought the fish and put them in the DT, if your fish are healthy they survive the issues brought with a new fish. The biggest issue with a new fish is getting them to eat, and then usually over the next few weeks you build up their health, and that alone stays off issues.


As near as I can determine, it was Marine Velvet that killed off my fish. I know it must have come in with one of the fish I bought since it can't survive without fish for 4 weeks. 
If I had been using a QT tank and kept each fish in isolation for 4 weeks before introducing it into the display tank, I would not have lost all the fish.
I won't repeat the mistake of buying so many fish, so quickly. Now that I have a source that is only 15 minutes away, buying a single fish at a time will be feasible. I don't know much about this place other than the online reviews from several years ago say that the owner is a jerk. He hasn't updated his website in several years.
I don't know if the Tang made it through the night. He is hiding in the rocks somewhere and the lights haven't come on yet. He was eating yesterday. 
I have read that the way to rid a tank of Marine Velvet is to transfer the fish to a QT tank and crank the heater in the infected tank up to 96 degrees for two weeks. Or just let the tank sit empty for four weeks. 
I still don't know at what point I should have seen the approaching problem. It all seemed to happen overnight. Happy fish one day, dying fish the next. Nothing, or very little, of what I know about keeping freshwater fish and fish behavior seems to apply to saltwater fish.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Yea, in the fish area aspect, its not all that easy, but in a sense it is. Fresh and salt don't compare at all. If you would have QT'd all the fish, then I'd say you would be ok, but, how would you know what to dose for in the QT? you would not have seen it in there either. Ich would at least show itself in a short time after getting the fish. Keep your tank at 96? Dose copper? Dose Formulin? Thats the hard part. You win some wars, and lose others.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Yea, in the fish area aspect, its not all that easy, but in a sense it is. Fresh and salt don't compare at all. If you would have QT'd all the fish, then I'd say you would be ok, but, how would you know what to dose for in the QT? you would not have seen it in there either. Ich would at least show itself in a short time after getting the fish. Keep your tank at 96? Dose copper? Dose Formulin? Thats the hard part. You win some wars, and lose others.


I noticed this morning that the Tang is developing tiny red spots around his eyes and gills, down his snout and at the base of his fins. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this is a sign of a bacterial infection, but I don't remember how to treat it. More research.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

This is what I have found out on this.
"septisemia 100%. cleaner water is a must. vitamins in the food.* maracyn-two* in the water. in 5 days it'll be gone "
And
"soaking his food *(formula 2) in (gel tek) penicillin*"
This should help you out, but the Maracyn you might want to add to the QT and not the DT.
Good luck.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> This is what I have found out on this.
> "septisemia 100%. cleaner water is a must. vitamins in the food.* maracyn-two* in the water. in 5 days it'll be gone "
> And
> "soaking his food *(formula 2) in (gel tek) penicillin*"
> ...


Thanks. I'll keep you updated. I am about to go test the DT and the QT to see where I am at on both. Still waiting on delivery of the other testing stuff. It sucks not being able to drive and having to rely on a friend to take you to the store, or online purchases. Online isn't good for emergencies. But I only have transportation on Mondays and Fridays, if my friend is available.
I have a rare vision problem that causes unpredictable periods of temporary blindness. That is why I can't drive. Texas revoked my drivers license.


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Updated readings for everything I can test for right now.

Display Tank
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.021
Temp 78
Ammonia 0PPM
Nitrite 0PPM
Nitrate 10PPM

QT tank
PH 7.8
Salinity 1.021
Temp 76
Ammonia 0PPM
Nitrite 5PPM + (higher than scale can go by a little)
Nitrate 160PPM ( I wouldn't believe this is even possible if I hadn't seen it)

In its current state the QT tank is certain and immediate death for a fish. I am debating on whether to try to fix the 10 gallon QT tank or abandon it and go buy a 29 gallon for my QT tank. Since I intend to QT every fish for at least 6 weeks, I think I need a 29 gallon to handle fish like a tang. I also need a large tank to QT the Tang in for the next 6 weeks while I treat his problems and give the display tank time to become useable again. I don't want to sterilize it because I am finally getting some coraline algae growth on my live rock, plus some interesting other things and about a dozen little featherdusters. I want to see what all this develops into.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> Thanks. I'll keep you updated. I am about to go test the DT and the QT to see where I am at on both. Still waiting on delivery of the other testing stuff. It sucks not being able to drive and having to rely on a friend to take you to the store, or online purchases. Online isn't good for emergencies. But I only have transportation on Mondays and Fridays, if my friend is available.
> I have a rare vision problem that causes unpredictable periods of temporary blindness. That is why I can't drive. Texas revoked my drivers license.


You can always overnight stuff, may cost a lil more, but at least you know you can get it when you need it.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

jbhillman said:


> Updated readings for everything I can test for right now.
> 
> Display Tank
> PH 8.0
> ...


Just do a water change. The Trates are not going to kill the fish, I had 200 Trates in my tank for a bit and never lost a fish for that reason. At least your going about the issue in good manner.*rotating smile


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Just do a water change. The Trates are not going to kill the fish, I had 200 Trates in my tank for a bit and never lost a fish for that reason. At least your going about the issue in good manner.*rotating smile


Okay. The tang died this morning. The redness I asked about was gone but after the lights came one, he just laid over on his side and quit breathing.
So I am going to start figuring out how to start over.
First, the water I use for mixing saltwater.
I have a swimming pool so I get it tested several times a year. Readings on my water pertinent to using in an aquarium
Calcium (CH) 80 ppm
Total Alkalinity (TA) 110 PPM
PH 7.4
copper 0PPM
Iron 0PPM
These are freshwater tests so I don't know how changing it to saltwater affects it.
The display tank readings taken immediately after I found the dead Tang.
Temp 78
Salinity 1.022
PH 8.0
Ammonia 0PPM
Nitrite 0PPM
Nitrate 5PPM


Questions about how to proceed with a FOWLR tank.
Quarantine tank. is a 20 gallon big enough or should I set up a 29 gallon
Sources for how to set up a QT? And maintain it?
Is a Reef Masters test kit comprehensive enough or are there other tests I need? Not doing reef but apparently the saltwater master test kits isn't enough. (PH, Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)
How critical is salinity. I have a hydrometer. Do I really need a refractometer?
What meds should I stock? I want to have on hand the meds to treat anything I will encounter. I don't want to watch any more fish die just because I can't get the meds quick enough.
Am I correct that clowns need to be introduced in pairs? Can I put in one pair, and then 6 weeks later, a second pair?
I am not going to put another fish in this tank for at least 6 weeks, and not before the Quarantine tank is ready for fish.
So depending on how a QT is started from scratch, I figure at least 8 to 12 weeks before I put another fish in the display tank.
Where can I go to find out what is growing on my live rock. I need pictures for reference. 
What should I read, and where should I look, to find out how to identify any disease a saltwater fish is subject to, BEFORE it is too late.
Any books you recommend?? I have a book by Dr. Herbert R. Axlerod but I need more up to date info. His book is out of date.
I am going to drain and clean the 10 gallon. It is too small for a QT, and I might need it for my freshwater fish as a QT tank for them.

Just as a funny note,
I have had three goldfish in my horse tank since early summer. I do not feed them anything. I suspect they eat what the horses drop when they drink. The tank is a 80 gallon tank. The goldfish are now 3 inches long. They were one inch when I bought them. I bought them for mosquito control. They eat the larvae.

I really appreciate the help and am sorry I failed in my first attempt. I really want to succeed in this and know I am a long way away from setting up a reef tank. I know I am responsible for my fish dying and do not want to repeat the experience of a total die off of all fish.*c/p*


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

WOW, ok. So lets start over. So here goes.
Live Rock Hitch Hikers
Water Changes in the Cycling Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Don't Water Changes Keep the Biological Filter from Maturing?
Saltwater Fish Aquarium Setup
How To Set Up a Fish Quarantine Tank
Reef Master is a good water test kit. But, you do not need all that for just a fish only tank. You just need Ammoni, Nitrite, Nitrate, PH.
Fish only tank SG is not critical, being, that your range is much wider than in a reef. You fish will be ok in roughly 1.017-1.026, Hydrometer is ok to use for those points, but check them twice for good measure. I used one for a long time without issue.
20g is ok, but a 29 is better, but then again it all depends on the length. The longer the tank the better the QT.
As far as adding Clowns in, it all depends on what Clown you are adding. Occ Clowns and Black Occ Clowns are pretty calm fish. Clarki, Tomato, Skunk, and a few others are just freakin mean fish, I would not suggest adding another clown to the tank once those are introduced, unless the ones you are adding are much bigger. And no, clowns do not need to be introduced as pairs.
Medication: Few ways to go about this. Hypo will kill damn near all parasites, they can't stand the pressure difference between salt and fresh. 
About Hyposalinity or Osmotic Shock Therapy - A Simple, Effective, Non-Chemical Treatment for Ich
This is some crazy stuff here:
Aquarium Fish Medication: Malachite Green
And the big Copper Treatment
Copper sulphate (sulfate) can be used to treat a range of parasites affecting marine aquarium fish
Did I miss anything?


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## jbhillman (Aug 14, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> WOW, ok. So lets start over. So here goes.
> Live Rock Hitch Hikers
> Water Changes in the Cycling Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Don't Water Changes Keep the Biological Filter from Maturing?
> Saltwater Fish Aquarium Setup
> ...


I don't think so. Thanks so much. I will start reading as see where I am then.


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