# I think I'm about to lose my school of cardinals...



## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

The poor things look horrible. I just noticed their fins are rotted away and I see spots on them. No other fish in the tank appears to be infected. No spots visible on any other species. Is there any hope of saving them?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Not sure if you can save cards ,but it's not to late to protect others in tank.Sound like ich(probably brought in with cards,or gbr{latest additions}).I would thoroughly vac your substrate and change 25-50% water. Elavate temp to 82-86f (start around 82 and see how fish tolerate).None of this should harm healthy fish. If you have ich the faster you treat the faster you cure .First two suggestions have started you on your way towards ich treatment.I use rid ich plus at 60-75% does as cards are sensative .I lost 2 cards recently during treatment(they weren't the infected) but cleared tank quickly.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

I have a ten gallon, but it's not fully cycled yet. Should I quarantine them or just treat them in my big tank? I don't see any signs of white spots on any of my other fish. Hopefully it stays that way. Also the cards have been in there at least a month. It must have come from another addition.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

you can quarentine to treat cards at lower than full strength, but unless spots just arrived today, I would still vac (thoroughly) and raise temp in main tank(doesn't) need med if no other infected fish,but if spots(on cards) have been present for 3 days good chance you'll see them on others shortly.Elavated temp shortens life span of ich tremendously.If cards have been infected for 3 days or more ich cyst likely dropped to substrate to hatch into thousands of new free swimming ich, looking for host.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

Ok I'll treat as they are. This makes me sad. I thought I was doing so well. I guess I just need to pay closer attention.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Almost everybody has had ich.Get Kordon rid ich plus (QUICKLY) and read directions and ask what you need to know.Crank up heat and vaccum gravel(substrate) now!The fatser you start to kill the ich the less the losses.Could be killed in 7 days if lucky.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

This is the best picture I could get of them. You can see the white spots on them but i didn't know ich caused fin rot as well. If that's what it is i'll get the meds tomorrow and start treating. I've already raised the temp to 82. Thanks for your help. 



<a href="http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m240/macfurry/?action=view&current=Cardinals.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m240/macfurry/Cardinals.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

fin rot and ich are not same.Often one infection often leads to secondary illness.Fin rot needs antibiotics(maracyn is one brand),to treat.That definately looks like ich .Hard to tell if fin rot?Definately treat for ich ,this is first possibly fin rot will subside during treatment.Shouldn't use more than one med.The ich med is not going to be great for your bio filter so watch water quality via test.Don't allow ammonia to rise during treatment.Salt is another option instead of meds, but I usally like to knock it out for sure.You will probably need to treat(meds or salt) for at least 10 days as infestation looks to have good hold.Read directions on meds -take crabon out of filter if using.Side note to preserve filter possibly take part to cycling tank(10) to save(not sure if filter material is infected as ich needs live host).


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

It is no use to quarantine for treatment, as Ich is a living, moving parasite and once you see it, it has attacked every fish in the tank. Some may have fought it iff, for now.
That is classic Ich though.
The messed up fins are a secondary issue - deal with the Ich first. They are robust looking cardinals, so you have a chance if you move fast.
Stay the course with the meds, and with Ich that advanced, expect some losses.

When the Ich is done, in 2 weeks or so, I would review my maintenance. Fin rot is a dirty water/crowding problem, when it isn't actually because you have a nippy fish in there to provide a fake version. How big is the tank, and what's in there? What is the normal temperature, and how stable is it? What kind of filter?

it appears to be a beautiful tank in the photo, so whatever is off shouldn't be far off. 

Avoid the natural bs of salt - for cardinals from deep in Amazonia, salt is about as natural as the chemicals in the Ich meds. It would be a big stress on their kidneys, and since it would take a long time to remove, an ongoing stress on their systems.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

Thank you for the compliment on the tank navigator. It's a 36 gallon up and running since June. Last water test had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 30 nitrate. It is currently due for a water change. Currently in the tank is 6 cardinals, 6 zebras, 5 cherry barbs, 2 swords (male and female or male sword and male platy, I've never been able to tell) 2 gourami, 3 rainbows, and a ram. Temperature is normally kept at 78 degrees, and the filter is a Rena smart filter. I've had two other losses recently (Dalmatian mollie and my old ram) but neither of them had and sign of white spots. The mollie looked like he had difficult Uluru swimming to the point when he just laid on the gravel, and the ram looked fine until I got home from work and found him dead. Unfortunately by the time I noticed this problem last night, the lfs was closed so ill be going today to start treatment.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Not to sound grim, but I had a school of ten cardinals and lost all ten after four separate unsuccessful medication regimes. I don't know what it is about cardinals, but they seem to be VERY susceptible to Ich.

Best of luck!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I use quick cure. Have never seen the spots after about 5 days. Just remember to treat at 50% for Cardinals whatever med you get.

One thing you should get into a habit of....glancing at every fish in your tank/s when you are feeding. Early detection makes for an easy treatment of most things out there. In the two times I have seen ich it was one fish with 1-2 spots. Get used to giving them the once over and you'll notice stuff pretty fast and pretty easy.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

Quick update: I've been treating with rid ich plus for a few days now with the temperature set at 82. I did lose two cardinals but the rest are looking better are recovering nicely. No other fish showed any signs of spots or disease. I did about a 40% water change. How long should I continue to treat for and should I add Melafix or stress coat to help their fins grow back after the treatment?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I am really unconvinced on melafix and pimafix. The active ingredient is proven to work in laboratories, but in these products, it is in such a low concentration that I doubt it does a lot more than smell good. It seems almost homeopathic to me.

I would start to bring the temps down, carefully, and keep the water changes coming. Two 40% per week for the next couple of weeks wouldn't hurt.


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## foster (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm with Navigator on the Melafix being worthless as a medication. However I do think it does help some with tissue regeneration I have done a couple of experiments with fin, and tail regeneration, and without melafix it took somewhat longer. Just my take on that product.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Have to agree with nav and foster.I think both of those are bunk.Possibly foster has found what they are good for.Just for example I told my LFS what I thought of those two (and Coral rxp{smelled very similiar}) and they told me one employee was using Mela fix to cure his ich for the last 2 1/2 weeks.(long time)


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The active ingredient is an anti-bacterial, and as an Ich treatment, is proof the employee can't read. It could make life harder for bacteria, which would allow wounds to heal faster. It won't affect freeswimming Ich.
I have used the leaves the Betta breeders like, with the same sort of smell ("magic almond leaves") to great effect, but only with blackwater swamp fish. They cure nothing, but acidify the water while suppressing some bacteria.
Fish from extremely acid environments ( many interior Amazon blackwater species come from a pH around 5) die like flies when put in harder aquarium water. The killer isn't kidney failure from osmoregulation problems - it's the fact these fish have never had to adapt to the bacteria found in harder water. Very acidic water is a hostile environment for a lot of bacteria, but creatures from acid water are an undefended food source for the microscopic life in the average aquarium.

We buy a lot of garbage because we think it's natural. I wince when aquarists treat Ich on Amazon fish with salt (sodium chloride - NaCI) because they think this chemical isn't a chemical. It's "natural". Meanwhile the Amazon rainforest is at the very least 55 million years old, and has been salt free throughout. So how natural is the use of salt for fish from there?
Grrrr.


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## foster (Sep 2, 2012)

I agree strongly with Navigator's statements. The statements about Amazonian fish, and bacteria in acidic water is spot on. I have learned this through research also. There are entirely too many (magic potions) out there . And way too much misinformation being handed out as fact. If aquarists are going to keep fish they haven't had before do the research. I am a big believer in asking a ton of questions before getting any new fish.


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## Spicy MacHaggis (Oct 2, 2012)

Well I woke up this morning to find my ram dead as well. I'm kinda getting really discouraged in this hobby. I eventually want to move on to an African cichlid tank and a reef tank but I'm really questioning my ability here.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

unfortunately rams fall into same type of category as cardinals ;they're delicate(they require exceptional water quality).It really seems that often the most desirable fish are the most delicate.Don't be discouraged the ich is not!Stay the course of treatment and kill the ich.sorry for your ram (i love mine and my cards).


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