# Cycling refresher...



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Just a quick question, (haven't cycled a tank for a while so I'm a bit rusty).

While cycling I shouldn't vacuum the gravel because I want to keep the bacteria in the tank.

_But, should I be doing 25% water changes to keep the water fresh?_

I've got an Aquaclear 30 running, with a sponge, Nitrazorb (instead of carbon b/c I have high nitrates in my water naturally), and then bio-max. I'll have to re-charge the Nitrazorb every few days until I get the Nitrate levels down. I rinsed all the new media in clear water, then squeezed them in the established 10 gal a few times - I know there's not much bacteria in the water column, but I figured it can't hurt. When I do a water change on the 10 gal tomorrow, I will rinse the 20 gal media in the dirty water again. I would put old media into the new filter, but it's a different size.

Thanks anyone who answers!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Are you doing this with or without fish? I would go fishless. If you're putting fish from your other tank in there to cycle it, you just risk losing them. Too easy to go the fishless route and with an established tank already present, it can go really fast.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

So, *1.* does the fishless cycle take the same amount of time that using fish does? (Not that it will make a difference, lol). Just curious.

And,* 2.* how will having the already established 10g tank help the 20g cycle faster?

*3.* With a fishless cycle, do I need to do water changes?

*4.* I only have test strips. I don't have the money to get a liquid test kit at the moment, (spent close to $200 this weekend already on the 20g kit and stand). So the strips will have to do. I'm guessing I'll look for amonia to be present, then Nitrites, then none of those but with Nitrates?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fishless is usually much faster. The established tank can be a source of beneficial bacteria for the new tank (filter media, gravel, decor, etc). No water changes on a fishless cycle. You do that with a cycle involving fish to save the fish - no worry there.

If you don't at least have an ammonia test kit, then for sure I would not use fish to cycle your tank.

I would say plant it and put your fish in after they became established. But for that to work well you need some fast growers and more than just a few plants.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

All a water change will do to a tank undergoing a fishless cycle is lower the amount of ammonia/nitrites in it...so this defeats the purpose. Unless your ammonia/nitrite level is out of control (as too much can inhibit bacteria colonization - but what exactly is 'too much' is difficult to say, maybe over 8 ppm) there is no need. Once the tank is cycled you'll want to do a few water changes to get the nitrates within sustainable levels.

To answer question number 4: Dose ammonia until nitrites appear, then start dosing about half of what you were. At this point nitrites will spike and in a week or so nitrates will appear in trace amounts but nitrites will remain high. After about double the time it took for the nitrites to first appear, they will go from being very high to very low in a matter of only a day or two, at that point cut the ammonia dosage again by about half and test ammonia and nitrite levels daily until they are both are nearly 0 (test 12-24 hours after dosing the ammonia and before dosing more, so you know for sure). Once nitrites are under .25 ppm or so test for nitrates and get the level close to what it is in your tap water (hopefully under 20-30 ppm) by doing water changes. Continue dosing ammonia at about 25% of the original level to keep the bacteria alive and add fish about 16-24 hours after the last dosage (test to make sure ammonia is under .25 ppm). Hopefully by this time you can afford a test kit.

To summarize...

1) Dose ammonia until nitrites appear, which should take 7-14 days.
2) Dose half as much once nitrites appear until nitrites disappear. This will take about twice as long as step 1.
3) Dose 1/4 as much and test for ammonia/nitrites 12-24 hours after dosage to ensure the levels are below .25 ppm.
4) Water changes as needed to bring down the nitrate level. Continue dosing ammonia if you take more than a day to complete this step at about 25% of original amount
5) Add fish, about a day after the last dose of ammonia.

Adding media and gravel (or ornaments, plants, etc) from an established tank will speed the process up..perhaps significantly.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

k. I will see if Walmart has an Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test kit at a good price.

If I do decide to use those 3 fish to cycle the tank, (they are looking pretty ragged... they are getting old and are possibly pecking at my shrimp. I lost 1 fish in my last cycle, so I'm hoping they will be ok, especially if I get the test kit, but if they do die at least I'm saving any future baby shrimp). So, if I do use those 3 fish, I would change 25% of the water _how often_? And I won't vacuum the gravel until the cycling is done.

I ended up using different decor for the 20 gal, but I will move the live plants over once it's cycled and I go to put the other critters in. (The shrimp and Otos are eating the algae on them at the moment, so I don't want to move them). Also, since I have animals like shrimp and snails that have a small bio-load, can I add them all at the same time once the tank is cycled? I also have to add the 3 Otos and the 2 ADF's. (The 5 rasboras I was given yesterday are literally so small, that I don't think their bio-load would even register, lol. Seriously, they are less than a cm long!) Since I'm taking all the live plants out when the other tank is cycled, I was hoping I could move everyone at the same time because the 10 will be virtually empty and kinda' boring for them. (I realize this could over load the filter and cause a second cycle, but I'm hoping that since all my critters have almost no bio-load (the shrimp and snails) to small bio-load the Otos and frogs, that it will be ok. What do you think?

As for bringing Nitrates down at the end of the cycle, I'm running the filter with a sponge, Nitrazorb (instead of carbon) and bio-max. Our high Nitrates come right from the water source. The Nitrazorb helps to bring the level down. Once the tank cycles, I will put carbon in the filter and put the Nitrazorb in a small corner filter that's run by an air stone. (It's worked beautifully in the 10g! It allowed me to finally be able to keep Otos!)


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

I wonder if the nitrate absorbing media works. I never heard of one until now, but it would be amazing to have in a tank. I also wonder if the ammonia removing media for the Aquaclear works. If so, there would be little point in cycling a tank, right?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you use fish, don't use Cards to do it with. They won't take it very well.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Yep, the Nitrazorb definitely works! My Nitrates were always in the dangerous zone, hence why I could never keep anything alive. I've had little to no problems at all since the Nitrazorb and the levels are now in the 20 ppm area. Love it!

K. Cards are a no go. The guppy is still hugely bloated and getting bigger. No clue what his problem is! This happened to a few other guppies I had and they all died from it. This one just keeps on going though..... wondering if I should maybe not put him in the new tank in case he is sick? But all the other fish and animals are immune to what ever he has. NONE of the other animals are showing signs of illness at all. It's always just the guppies.

I read on here in a thread somewhere, where someone wanted to use some shrimp that had died to cycle his tank. If I end up losing a fish, do I leave it in the tank for the ammonia or do I take it out to stop disease?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You don't really have any fish I'd call cycle sturdy. 

Also, for nitrates to kill they have to get way high, like 200+, for persistent periods. My nitrates have been upwards of 100-120 and never had a problem. Nitrates is something you dose when dosing dry ferts. Although, many get used up. Also a big water change is done every week.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

You're lucky! My Nitrates were at like 40ppm or so, and I couldn't keep Oto's and the other fish kept dying! Since getting the Nitrazorb, which keeps the Nitrates at the normal 20ppm level or so, I've had great success with the Oto's and shrimp.

Are there any "cycle" hardy fish that you would recommend? Obviously I don't want them to die, so the hardier the better. Just as long as they won't eat the shrimp or the tiny dwarf Rasboras once they all get put in the same tank. I always thought guppies were hardy, but if you say they aren't, I trust you.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

Out of curiosity, why are you set on using fish to cycle? Fishless is much easier, especially if you don't have liquid test kits yet, takes less time, doesn't risk the health of fish, and is cheaper since you'll end up paying more for a few fish (or more if/when they die) than a inexpensive jug of ammonia somewhere. Obviously it's your tank and such, but it seems to me one of the options is much better than the other.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

It does sound like a good idea... but would the ammonia wreck the Nitrazorb media? (I don't know if that media can take ammonia....)

I have no problem with trying it, I've just always used fish, lol. So two questions then: Where can I find plain no additive ammonia? And, will the ammonia affect the Nitrazorbs efficiency?

"Nitra-Zorb is the first water filtration medium that removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in freshwater aquariums. Nitra-Zorb is a blend of natural and synthetic ion-exchange resins that selectively removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Nitra-Zorb, when used in new aquariums, controls the level of toxic ammonia and nitrite during the initial development of the biological filter. In established aquariums, Nitra-Zorb helps control sudden spikes in ammonia and nitrite from the addition of new fish or anytime ammonia or nitrite is detected." This is what the Nitrazorb web site said about the product.... so I'm assuming it will NOT impede the cycling process but may actually help it along.

So, now I'm just wondering if the pure ammonia will affect the media....

K. New plan, lol: Fishless cycle. IF Nitrazorb is not recommended, I'll replace it with charcole and cycle it that way. Then, once cycling has taken place, I will start with 2 or 3 really hardy fish, as I will then start a corner filter with Nitrazorb (and that will take a few weeks to have the full effect, hence the really hardy fish). Once the Nitrates are showing at a 20ppm or less, then I will add my other creatures and take down the 10 gal.

IF the Nitrazorb WON'T halt the cycling, I will just cycle with it (fishless) and then once the tank is cycled, will put the Nitrazorb in a corner filter and put charcole in the regular filter. Woot! 

*Since I have animals with low bio-loads, can I put them in the 20 gal at once or will that over load the system? Or should I do shrimp and snails one week (so approx. 20 shrimp and 3 snails), 2 frogs the next, 1 guppie, 2 cards, 3 Otos and 4 rasboras the next, finally ending with the 1 flower shrimp the final week? (I was hoping that since all the animals I have (except for the fish) have a small bio-load it would be ok to do them all at once, but I understand that this may be a bad idea. Any thoughts?


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

I believe in no water changes for 4 weeks (to remove accumulated Nitrates) and to cycle with very tough fish like Guppies or Clouds. If you add fish during cycling (not recommended) introduce them slowly to your new tank. Accumulated Nitrites and Ammonia are important in the generation of new bacteria populations.


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't know how the Nitra-Zorb works, how effective it is, and if it converts the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates to something else or if it just neutralizes it..so I can't really comment on how to do the cycle while using it. I think it would be easier to use carbon/charcoal during the cycle to tackle any surfactants if you do decide to go with the Great Value ammonia or another type that may not be pure ammonia and avoid using the Nitra-Zorb until after the tank is cycled...but if anyone else has experience with this they can hopefully provide some clarity.

And yes, you can add as many fish as you want in essence once the tank is cycled. If the tank is properly cycled, it will have no problems handling the bioload as you had been priming the aquarium to handle a much higher bioload than it will ever have to in reality so if you don't add a lot of fish right away a lot of the bacteria will die off within the first week after the cycle anyways.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks so much everyone! Greatly appreciated!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't waste using nitra-zorb on your new tank while cycling if you are doing without fish.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Found some 100% pure ammonia today (after checking 4-5 different places, ugh!) Found it at Home Hardware and it's by "Old Country", so, I've started my fishless cycle. My tank is still getting up to 85-86 degrees to help speed the process along, but it's almost there.

Glad I finally got things started! While doing my gravel vacuum and water change of the 10 gallon tank, I squeezed out my 20 gallon filter media in the dirty water, (hopefully picking up some good bacteria that came from the gravel). I put charcole in the filter and am using a corner filter with Nitrazorb running off the same air pump as is running the 10 gallon corner filter, (Big Als manager said Nitrazorb wouldn't stall cycling at all). Using it now so that when they cycle is done, the Nitrates will also be at a safe level to add all my animals. (If I didn't start it now, I'd have to wait until it worked enough to drop the Nitrates, which would mean all the beneficial bacteria that had been built up would die).

So..... for the next few weeks I dose, test and wait..... 

Thanks for everyone's help. It was all greatly appreciated!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What are safe levels of Nitrates?


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I was always told (and found on several sites) that 20 ppm and lower is safe. 30-40 ppm is "dangerous" and 50+ is "deadly"...... did I hear wrong?


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## benitahigg (May 22, 2011)

holly12 said:


> Just a quick question, (haven't cycled a tank for a while so I'm a bit rusty).
> 
> While cycling I shouldn't vacuum the gravel because I want to keep the bacteria in the tank.
> 
> ...


Hi! I was reading where you said you recharged your Nitrazorb, and I was wondering if you could tell me how to do that? I have one in my tank. I tossed the instructions with the bag it came in. So now I don't know how to do it! Thank You!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Lol, no problem. The bag says to recharge every 5 days for 2 weeks and then you only need to do it every 2 weeks or so. (The media is good for 2 months and then needs to be changed). Test your water every week or so and if you find that waiting 2 weeks between charges is too long and your Nitrates are going up, then do it once a week. (You may even be able to go a month without charging, it all depends on your levels). If your levels are really high like mine are, the LFS guy recommended recharging every 2 days for 2 weeks, then every 5 days for 2 weeks and then just as needed. I'm pretty sure the "every 2 days for 2 weeks and the every 5 days for 2 weeks" is only for when you are just getting started with it. By the time you switch to a new Nitrazorb media, it should have already taken care of the high levels and now it's just regular maintenance to keep them low.

To charge, you put the Nitrazorb in 8 ounces of warm water with 4 tablespoons of aquarium salt dissolved in the water. (It's a lot of salt for that amount of water, so it won't all dissolve). Let that sit for 2 hours. Rinse it lightly under running water and then put it back into the filter and you're good until your next needed charge.


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