# Very sad, Fish dying : (



## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

I have kept my first planted aquarium since February 2010. The fish I had in the beginning are now started to die out, mostly in the same way, and I can't figure out what's going on. The people at the fish store said they think it's probably something just wrong with the fish itself, but they all seem to die in the same way, so I can't help but think otherwise.

Here is the pattern:

1. They start to become lethargic
2. They stop eating
3. They hang around the bottom in the corner, staring at the wall
4. They (only my danios do this) start to have a curved shape, start swimming on their sides, and then a blood patch is visible on their side.
5. They have a hard time breathing and breathe very quickly on their side.

I have had all 3 of my bloodfin tetras die doing the lethargic thing, but I never noticed a curvy spine or a blood mark on their fins.

I am sooooo sad about this, because I know it's going around the tank, and I don't know what's going on.

Awhile back I thought I had some parasites, but they ended up NOT being parasites at all, but scuds -- and before I figured out aquariumforum.com existed, I basically purged my tank of most of the water (I left 20%... didn't realize that was too much to take out), and re-added my fish after putting in new water. I am thinking this was a huge mistake, and I feel terribly...because none of my fish died before that, but that was also a few months ago.

Since then, the only thing I have found fluctuating is the temperature by a few degrees. That's about all I can think of. I'm posting some images...

VERY sad about this, please, if you have ANY clue, tell me what I'm doing wrong!! These fish are precious to me : (

Thanks guys, much love to you.


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## jeepgunner12 (Nov 21, 2010)

I'm extremely new to the hobby but if I was in your shoes I would empty everything out of the tank and wash everything with blistering hot water and toss a half a cap of bleach in the tank and wash it with that then rinse the god out of it so its like a new tank again. 

What does everyone think about that idea?


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## knownothingfishowner (Feb 22, 2010)

jeepgunner12 said:


> I'm extremely new to the hobby but if I was in your shoes I would empty everything out of the tank and wash everything with blistering hot water and toss a half a cap of bleach in the tank and wash it with that then rinse the god out of it so its like a new tank again.
> 
> What does everyone think about that idea?


Unfortunately, that's probably the best suggestion. In addition, I'd suggest deep sixing the remaining live ones with some clove oil. Chances are the live ones dined on a sick buddy's corpse before it was found and removed, assuring a similar demise a few days or weeks later. Putting those guys back in a cleaned tank could make the entire effort not worth the aggravation.

Plus, may want to fill the tank with tap water after the bleach/water solution treatment with some Seachem Prime to neutralize any bleach molecules. Empty it out, spread all gravel across a tarp in the garage along with empty tank to properly dry for a day or so. That's the only way to be sure.


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## jeepgunner12 (Nov 21, 2010)

Wouldn't want to purposely kill them, but the odds are decent they have the same problem as the others. Keep them fed and comfy and see what happens. 

OR perhaps the change in environment could neutralize what they have, like a sort of dilution. I dunno but it sounds like you care a lot so I don't want you to run out of options.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Its a parasite. Beyond that I couldn't say. National Fish Pharmaceuticals could probably tell you more - they are very good about email consultations and telling you exactly what you need to buy in order to fix it, but it comes down to how likely is it that there will be anybody alive to treat by the time you get your medicine, how many fish are left right now? You have to decide what everything is worth, if it is worth trying to treat things, or if you want to absolutely sterilize everything (and I mean everything - boil everything you can boil, bleach everything you can't boil, throw out anything you can't bleach or boil, wipe down surfaces with bleach solution, anyplace where the water can splash, tabletops, light bulbs (off and cool) all need to be wiped down with bleach solution. I feel bad this has happened to you.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Bent spines sounds like fish TB.The open wounds and red streaks sound like Septicemia.
Do you have a chinese algae eater per chance?They are not algae eaters for long and snack on fish when they start to mature.Thats the only things that come to my mind.


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## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

I have live plants in this tank, what would I do with them if I'm to do all this cleaning? How long would this cleaning take?

Where would I put my fish in the mean time???

Should I buy new gravel? 

Would I have to wait another 2 weeks before I let them back into the new tank, to let the cycle start again?

I have a 10 gallon, but I don't want to add them in there since I have other fish. Maybe I could take the water from there and put them into this empty 2.5 gallon I have? I only have like, 8 left. 3 are zebra danios, 2 are coryfish (babies), 1 is a pleco, 2 are golden pristellas.

That's not much room for them.

What do you guys think? Thanks so much for the responses...


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

You can do a bleach dip on the plants.You can bleach the gravel,boil it or replace it.Yep the cycle will need to be redone.DO NOT ADD THE FISH TO THE TEN GALLON.Get a plastic tote for the remaining fish.Med them in there and keep the tank unlit.The dark will keep from adding more stress.

The bleach dip,cant remember how long but for my plants i put one part bleach to twenty parts water.Soak the plants for 20 minutes,then place in a bowl of fresh water with twice the dechlor added and soak there for about an hour.Then they go in the tank.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

gillmank said:


> I have kept my first planted aquarium since February 2010. The fish I had in the beginning are now started to die out, mostly in the same way, and I can't figure out what's going on. The people at the fish store said they think it's probably something just wrong with the fish itself, but they all seem to die in the same way, so I can't help but think otherwise Awhile back I thought I had some parasites, but they ended up NOT being parasites at all, but scuds -- and before I figured out aquariumforum.com existed, I basically purged my tank of most of the water (I left 20%... didn't realize that was too much to take out), and re-added my fish after putting in new water. I am thinking this was a huge mistake, and I feel terribly...because none of my fish died before that, but that was also a few months ago.
> 
> 
> VERY sad about this, please, if you have ANY clue, tell me what I'm doing wrong!! These fish are precious to me : (
> ...


Changing 80% of their water should be a weekly chore. That's part of cleaning out the stall or flushing the toilet. Remember the fish are living in their own septic tank.

If there were parasites of any kind, they can be treated. The water changes need to become a part of your fish keeping. The timing of your problems meets both the parasite and water chemistry problems head on. It is hard to tell the differences without microscopic examination.

What you need now is stability. New water every 6 to 10 days. Clean filter about that time. 
What are you feeding the fish? Are there any scavengers like snails, etc.? What if any Parasite cures have you tried? What makes you or anyone else thing there are parasites present?

The red anus is suspect of Capillary or Camallanus Nematodes. Flukes are also suspect. The curved body is indicative of loss of nutrition. It could be from Parasites and poor water chemistry.

I would like to see more before you trash everything to bleach.

Charles H


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*It does sound like TB to me too. If they stop eating and become emaciated, belly becomes curved, and ulcers then it sounds like TB. I dont think there's a medication for it available. 

In my opinion, if I had this disease in my tank, I would start over. I think aquarium TB can infect humans too. I would bleach all gravel, decorations and tank walls. *


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## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

inkmaker said:


> Changing 80% of their water should be a weekly chore. That's part of cleaning out the stall or flushing the toilet. Remember the fish are living in their own septic tank.
> 
> If there were parasites of any kind, they can be treated. The water changes need to become a part of your fish keeping. The timing of your problems meets both the parasite and water chemistry problems head on. It is hard to tell the differences without microscopic examination.
> 
> ...


I do regular water changes, but I don't do 80%, I've been told by more than one person that anything above 20% is too much for weekly. I do more than 20%, though. I had been doing 50% each week until I heard the 20% deal and have been doing around 30 as of late.

Since I didn't know about it possibly being a parasite, I haven't known what to try! What is there to try for parasites??? Can I get this at a local store?!

It's not the anus that has the red streaks, it's the side.

I have had a ton of snails to the point that it's been pest-like, but I've lessened their numbers greatly to maybe a hidden 20. Trying to get rid of them altogether.


I agree--I don't really want to trash everything to bleach. My crypts have just recently taken over beautifully and I'm nervous to pull them / bleach dip, then boil everything and try to re-plant. Plus, I'd have to re-wait a few weeks before adding the fish so the cycles could be ready for them.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

80% weekly water changes will stress and kill many fish. 50% is as high as I would go.

For Parasites, Tetra makes fizz tabs that you can probably find in your local Petsmart if you have one. I prefer using Jungle Labs brand called parasite clear.


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## peteyboyny (Oct 18, 2010)

Just found this online...first thing that popped up:
maybe it can help explain.
Fish Tuberculosis - TB


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## Martini2108 (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree with most this does sound like fish TB only know method to get rid of is Euthanasia (sad i know) but fish TB is transferable to humans so any open cuts it will go into. I think you should follow the bleaching guide that everyone else has said. Only way to get it outa the tank. Also keep an eye out for red patches on ur arm's or hands, followed by swelling of the infected area. If this occurs get to a Doc and inform them you have a fish tank that might have Fish TB. GL hope that you can get rid of it.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> 80% weekly water changes will stress and kill many fish. 50% is as high as I would go.
> 
> For Parasites, Tetra makes fizz tabs that you can probably find in your local Petsmart if you have one. I prefer using Jungle Labs brand called parasite clear.


*NADA discus breeders do 100% water changes everyday including the fry tanks. and the fry arent easy to raise either because they are very sensitive





if it is a small tank like 30g or smaller i would start over. you dont have to boil anything..... you just wash down the tank with soap and water, 1:20 bleach:water respectively to the plants and decorations. Ive done this before and it didnt not take that long. you wouldnt want that TB to forever be in your tank. your tank can easily be established agian. its trial and errors. but if you do not want to start over, you would need medication to rid the TB and i dont think there are any TB meds. some site says try Kanamycin. or you can also try maracyn 1 and 2
*


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Unfortunately there are no TB cures.

You will want to break down the tank and give it a good sterile cleaning with a bleach solution as mentioned. Toss out any filter media and fake plants. Live plants can be dipped in either a mild bleach solution or PP. Depending on the plants, you don't want to dip the roots in bleach. PP may be your better option. Or, if it's only a few plants, toss them altogether. Gravel, decor and equipment can be sanitized easily.

As for the 80% water changes, unless you are keeping such fish as Discs, Rays, Arowanna's, etc., don't do larger than 25% unless you are treating for foul water conditions.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I really think you should try consulting with the experts at National Fish Pharmaceuticals, they do a free email consultation that is very helpful, mostly we're just guessing. 

FISH DISEASE DIAGNOSIS & FISH DISEASE TREATMENTS

According to them, tuberculosis can be treated by kanamycin & vitamin b6, but this business with the red spot that appears, I've heard that from a couple different people this month, and that could be a virus of some kind, or a cysted parasite. I don't know. I would only break down and bleach the tank if I lost all the fish and was starting over, or if I had decided to euthanize the fish and start over. So long as you plan to keep the fish going and try to help them, I would keep them where they are and treat the tank.


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## knownothingfishowner (Feb 22, 2010)

I agree that it's good to exercise all options. But when considering the descriptions, details and limited materials that Gillmank explains, chances are the matter is futile outside of doing the deep six and bleach wash down.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Dang, I wish there was some way to do a dissection or something, or have somebody with a good set up with a microscope and stains and stuff who would just take delivery of little dead fish on dry ice and do a necropsy, but the amount of money just to ship the fish so they'd arrive worth looking at would be so much most people couldn't afford it, and most fish you don't even see them until they're already practically compost. Its so frustrating trying to give people advice with so little information to give 'em.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Physical Changes


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

gillmank, where do you live? If near St Louis, I could examine your dead fish or look at things closer. The red at the belly looks like something other than simple TB. Usually there are skin lesions or white patches which don't turn to fungus. The white patches reach into the flesh of the fish until it dumps enough toxins into the fish to kill it.
The red streak in your fishes indicates complications with the kidneys. Something caused the internal bleeding and likely from the kidneys. I didn't see any patches on the fishes in the pictures.

If there is some internal infection it won't be obvious. The curl of the fish happens with loss of blood or infection touching the spine causing retraction or flexation. Either way it curves the fish. There isn't much that can get into an infected fish quick enough to stop the bacteria or parasite that might be causing it.

If it is some Gram Negative bacteria one needs to remember that the negative means it won't accept a water based stain or dye. It has a wax like coating that protects it from things like bleach and other water borne things. That is one of the things that makes these kind of bacteria difficult to kill or remove from the system.

I'm not saying the problem you are seeing with your fish is TB or any of the Mycobacterium strains like tuberculosis. I really don't have enough information to make that kind of diagnosis. 

But, those are some of the problems one faces with some start up situations where the aquarists doesn't change enough water often enough and things just slip up into the septic tank we keep our fish in.

50 to 100 % water changes are the natural occurrence where the fish come from. Nature changes the water moment by moment in any stream or river. Large lakes in east Africa are much like the oceans - lots of NEVER changing water.

The best breeders are the most water changers. Ask anyone in the fish business in the far East. Flow through systems that bring complete changes in 24 to 48 hours is a must.

The situation you present is so questionable that if it were me, and it has happen before, I would trash everything that couldn't stand dish washing detergent. Scrub out the tank and any articles you want to keep and let it dry for a couple of weeks. Gravel can stand heating to 220F for an hour but the household may not like the the stench. The bacteria can't. That will kill it. But gravel is cheap.

Think about a second tank for quarantine when you purchase new fish or live plants. Don't introduce new stuff into a loved and valued environment without letting any strange thing develop. 

I've worked with these situations since 1961. Sometimes the microscopic guys win. Probably best to start over with this one. 

But, it is always best to change as much water as you possibly can as often as you can.

Charles H


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## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks guys. You all have been so helpful.

Even as all of your information iswonderfully factual and full of experience, I still hold a hope that some kind of parasite treatment can work.

Charles H - -Unfortunately I'm not near St. Louis : ( But, that's really kind of you to offer.

I'm going to try my hand at working through this with treating the tank before euthanasia and starting over.

If it happens that all my fish do end up dying--how would I bleach dip my crypts (plant)? I was told they create networks of roots underneath the gravel, and it sounds dangerous to them to uproot them and dip them in bleach.

Would someone mind giving me a little more step-by-step bleach dip instruction for my plants?

You guys are wonderful. I made a great choice in joining this place.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Where in the midwest are you?

its a 5% bleach solution so 5% per 1 gallon of luke warm water. Its not dangerous to uproot them, they will possibly "melt" when they are replanted but thats just transplant shock and is normal amongst ALOT of plants both aquatic and what grows in gardens.
Aquatic Plant Central has a ton of informative articles and how-to's on what you are asking about, alot more detailed then one could get here without copy and pasting.


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## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

Ohio--thanks for the link!


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

Perhaps you missed what I said about _Mycobacterium_ strains like _tuberculosis_ If it is some Gram Negative bacteria one needs to remember that the negative means it won't accept a water based stain or dye. It has a *wax like coating* that protects it from things like *bleach* and other water borne things. That is one of the things that makes these kind of bacteria difficult to kill or remove from the system.

They need to be scrubbed from their surfaces.


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## gillmank (Aug 31, 2010)

So what do you do then if you can't do anything water based? throw everything away?!


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Usually in cases of TB, the small things in the tank gets tossed such as gravel, small decor and any filter media. Everything else is scrubbed down with a strong bleach solution.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

so what do you suggest he do about his plants?


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

chris oe said:


> so what do you suggest he do about his plants?


If a few plants...I would toss.

Another option is a PP (Potassium permanganate) dip.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Where do you find that? Is there a more common name for it?


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Check with a hardware store like ACE or True Value for your best bets. I have heard people finding it at Lowes or HD but not very likely.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Can't this stuff just be left outside to dry out? Does this stuff live long outside of water?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

TB does live outside the water column,yes.many things that affect aquariums can lay dormant in dry periods,hence the need to bleach everything you can.Ive not dealt with it myself,though i have read from tons how much of a nightmare it is,and many people who do deal with it,gets to the point they trash everything,and several decided to get out of fish all together.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

And...if you ever find yourself in a suspected case of it...please wear gloves when working in and around the tank while cleaning and sterilizing. It can transfer to us humans.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

chris oe said:


> so what do you suggest he do about his plants?


Quarantine, a tank with just plants for a couple of months.

We still have not confirmed the problem as bacterial or which one if any.

I am with the group that would go on with the present situation, but do some major water changes to get back to where the tank's started water chemistry. Freeze the affected fish and get rid of them, trash not sewer. Add some new fish and go on. If it happens again then there is the place to do more investigation.

Charles H


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