# general planted tank questions



## rubnu67 (Mar 15, 2011)

Hi, i have a 33 gallon juwel rio 125 (crappy i know, i really hate it but i will be upgrading sometime in the future to an ada optiwhite!) i set it up really quickly and badly about a year ago as my first fish tank and didnt know what i was doing so it is just awful. when i upgrade my tank i want to do everything right so there a few things i need to know.
1. how much lighting will i need for my aquarium ( current and new ada aquarium which is 120x60x45, LxHxW) in terms of watts per gallon or what ever other measurement, i was looking at the coralife t5 ho fixture with the pink colourmax and the 6700k bulbs as i have been told pink is good for plants and plants also need about 6000k to do well.
2. what type of cO2 system should i get and how much should i be putting in, i dont really want to go DIY or liquid CO2.
3. i have an awful snail problem in my tank! i keep removing hundreds at a time with my net but the next day they have bred and were back to square one, i emptied them all out of my fluval 205 canister eggs and all but to no avail, i tried putting gastropex snail killer in, didnt work of course.... i even have ten assassin snails but there not doing anything! would putting salt in the aquarium do the trick ( obviously when the fish arent in the tank) or raising the heat?also how do i prevent the snails from getting in there in the start?
4. what kind of filtration would best suit the new tank, i looked into the eshopps wet/dry trickle filter and am very interested in getting one with the upgraded tank. my current canister filter is leaking but i dont know how to stop it! im fed up of it and i hate being scared of a filter cos it always goes everywhere when i do maintenance .
5. what kind of liquid fertilizers will i need to put in the new tank (dont worry about the current tank its a lost cause) im unlikely to put in any red plants and so wont really be needing any iron i dont think. i am going for amano style iwagumi with hairgrass carpet, moss rocks, vallisneria etc.....
6. in the new tank what type of foods and how much should i be feeding my fish (about 20 cardinal tetras, 6-7 sterbas cories, lots of amano and cherry and crystal red shrimp and possibly some praecox rainbows).
general note, i am putting in ada amazonia soil. also how do i keep my carbonate hardness at the right place, its currently too low. also how can i achieve a beautiful balance, e.g get no algae, pearling plants, crystal clear water... u know the score  not sure if this is the best place to ask aboutplanted tanks :/ some answers would be much appreciated *c/p*


----------



## freshwater77 (May 24, 2011)

Do you have a local library? I have some books that, between two or three, should answer every single one of your fish tank questions!!! 
First, you need to determine what plants and fish you would like; you can't get low-light fish with high light plants and have a light geared to one, the other, or neither. 
Second, you shouldn't need a CO2 system unless you intend to have bright to very bright lighting conditions. 
Third, the snail problem is a VERY difficult one to manage... the best one I've seen is to use slices of cucumber and wait until a handful are on it, then take out the cucumber and squish the rest on the glass. Time consuming and you may need to invest in a fish that eats snails. 
Fourth, I would suggest a pair of high-turnover power filters that hang on the outside of the glass and use a tube for water intake; the ones with the Bio-Wheel are VERY nice and easy to maintain. Coupled with often water changes, this is a very reliable system.
Fifth, the choice of plant ferts really depends on the variety of plants; some plants only require plain washed gravel while others require nutrient-rich clay or even a layer of detritus. Again, pick your plants before you pick your fertilizer. Pellets/wafers are a convenient way to target plants (unless your tank is so deep you have a hard time getting the thing down there haha).
Sixth, feed the fish small amounts two or three times a day. Most fish have stomachs about the size of their eyeballs. All fish eat like they haven't seen a fish flake in weeks; few fish stop eating before they can't possibly cram any more food in their gut. Feeding small amounts twice or three times a day ensures that everyone gets food and all the food gets eaten. 

The following books are REALLY worth a gander:

_A Fishkeeper's Guide to Aquarium Plants_ by Barry James
-Plant types, lighting requirements, substrate types, placement considerations, CO2 information, fertilizers

_The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums_, 2nd Edition, by David E. Boruchowitz
-Filters, plant lighting, feeding, starting a tank properly


Both books, if you take the time to really absorb some of the information, are straightforward and helpful.

Happy tanking!! =]


----------



## rubnu67 (Mar 15, 2011)

is there any specific type of power filter i should get, model or make? bearing in mind the tank is in my room and has to be as quiet as possible. what kind of media should i put in them (ive only ever had a canister)
thnx for the advice


----------



## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have low light fish with high light plants....

Anyhoo,the light will drive the needs of plants.If you are going with the T5HO light(i have one of the current USA one and love it)then you should be able to grow a variety of plants and they will need/appreciate ferts and CO2.I would go pressurized.Be sure to get a bubble counter,a diffuser and a drop checker though.The ferts can be gotten at most any plant specific site,I use Green Leaf Aquariums.Good prices and fast shipping and have never done me wrong.I myself find canisters to do better in planted tanks just because you can get the lily pipes and have them almost invisible in the tank.Also im not a fan of the HOBs anyhow,too noisy for me and i prefer the closed environment of canisters.its personal preference though so keep this in mind.

I also feed my fish one to three times daily depending on if im after them to spawn or not.Most community fish will do fine with once a day feedings.This will prevent over feeding and obesity,which can happen and is a killer for them as it is for us.


----------



## rubnu67 (Mar 15, 2011)

can someone tell me how many watts per gallon i need for a 33 gallon tank? or how many bulbs i need 2 or 4?


----------



## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

This might help:
Lighting Guide for a Planted Tank - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community

You can have a very nice low light planted tank without CO2 but High Light and CO2 gives you faster growth and more plant options.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

you could try the methods in the link in my signature.


my .02


----------



## rubnu67 (Mar 15, 2011)

thnx tht link really helped! im torn between going with a jungle aquascape with loads of different species of plant and really packing them and a heavy fish/shrimp load on my new tank or japanese simplicity (like amano) with 2 or 3 species of plants and a load of cardinals and some sterbas and siamese algae eaters with some cool shrimp. any ideas?


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

"those methods" if done to the letter, will cause an unstable ph and a resultant pegged high ph of 8.6 or so. I would stay away from the whole no water change, no water movement, and no filter concept. Although planted, result in a low oxygen, low activity tank. Not to mention create something you would be ashamed for someone to walk in on that didn't know you. I am sure that he'll send you a PM to rebut.

Amano type tanks can be pretty cool looking. Most of his all have CO2 and pretty good levels of light though. My personal opinion is if you are new to this get started with simple stuff and add to the complexity as you mature in your knowledge of growing and maintaing plants, to include normal maintenance, fertilization, pruning, planting, etc. starting off slow and wanting more is easy. Starting off heavy and behind in knowledge can create problems. Not saying you can't do it if you really want to, just a suggestion. I kept my planted tanks for about 6 months before going off the deep end with high light, CO2, and dosing ferts. It worked pretty good for me, but there have been bumps along the way.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> "those methods" if done to the letter, will cause an unstable ph and a resultant pegged high ph of 8.6 or so. I would stay away from the whole no water change, no water movement, and no filter concept. Although planted, result in a low oxygen, low activity tank. Not to mention create something you would be ashamed for someone to walk in on that didn't know you. I am sure that he'll send you a PM to rebut.
> 
> Amano type tanks can be pretty cool looking. Most of his all have CO2 and pretty good levels of light though. My personal opinion is if you are new to this get started with simple stuff and add to the complexity as you mature in your knowledge of growing and maintaing plants, to include normal maintenance, fertilization, pruning, planting, etc. starting off slow and wanting more is easy. Starting off heavy and behind in knowledge can create problems. Not saying you can't do it if you really want to, just a suggestion. I kept my planted tanks for about 6 months before going off the deep end with high light, CO2, and dosing ferts. It worked pretty good for me, but there have been bumps along the way.


No need to pm.

My tanks have a stable pH, where people admire the tank, and fish live for years and years.

But everyone is entitled to their own ideas. *old dude

my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> My tanks have a stable pH, where people admire the tank, and fish live for years and years.


Not by most people's definition......

If your ph starts at a given value, say 7.5, and drifts to 8.5 that is not stable. Stable would be start at 7.5 and remain that way, even taken into account the daily fluctuations. Daily fluctuations would occur, but then reset back to 7.5 just before the lighting cycle starts. This is the normal cycle of a planted tank.

Drifting to 8.5 and then not moving, is not stable. But if that definition works for your purposes....just doesn't for most people. Your tanks have zero kh as you have said.....that is why your ph drifts high.

I would post the pic of the tank you have in your gallery, but I don't want to embarrass you. Not much to admire, sorry. If fish live for years in your tanks, it surely shows that fish can adapt, even in some situations that may not be suited for or best for them.


----------



## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Lets not hijack all the threads with this subject!


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Not by most people's definition......
> 
> If your ph starts at a given value, say 7.5, and drifts to 8.5 that is not stable. Stable would be start at 7.5 and remain that way, even taken into account the daily fluctuations. Daily fluctuations would occur, but then reset back to 7.5 just before the lighting cycle starts. This is the normal cycle of a planted tank.
> 
> ...


And you are making the very common thing of mistake of confusing constant for stable.

It is entirely possible to have a stable varying environment and have constant unstable environment.

I'll take stable anytime. *old dude

my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Whatever definition works for you. Expected. Any definition that says ph is stable where the ph moves over a point would just be wrong. Like I said, whatever works for you. Your tanks lack the buffering capacity to hold a ph stable.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Whatever definition works for you. Expected. Any definition that says ph is stable where the ph moves over a point would just be wrong. Like I said, whatever works for you. Your tanks lack the buffering capacity to hold a ph stable.


Let me give you the definitions and an analogy. Then you decide.

Constant means unchanging.

Stable means the ability of a system to return to a steady state (balanced) when deviated from that state. positive stability is when the system tends to return and negative (unstable) is when the system deviates further from the steady state. Neutral stability is where neither happens and the system just stays at the deviation.

Consider a yardstick with the steady state being vertical. Which is possible by either holding the bottom the yardstick in your palm or the top between your fingers. When the wind deviates the stick from vertical and with no input for your hand, the yardstick flops over when balanced on your palm. negative stability or unstable. When holding the stick from the top, it returns to vertical with no input from you hand. Stable. If you pin it at the center is rotates then just stays there. Neutral stability.

All three have a steady state (vertical) the unstable requires constant hand movement to keep it vertical. Holding the stick at the top requires no input to return to vertical.

So with constant adjustments you can keep the stick vertical with your palm at the bottom. But that is unstable.

With no inputs the stick could be moving constantly as the stability returns the stick to vertical.

So constant conditions are not necessairly stable. And stable conditions are not necessairly constant.


my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LOL, we're talking about ph, not yardsticks. If your ph moves, its not stable - within reason. Yours move outside the "within reason" realm and people have come here with the same issues you have, no buffers in the water, and you yourself recommend baking soda to boost kh and yet you have zero and a high ph and call it plant action. That's what I mean by making the definition suit your purposes. The difference between you and that person is that at least they can recognize that something is wrong. You have a myopic view of a planted tank.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> LOL, we're talking about ph, not yardsticks. If your ph moves, its not stable - within reason. Yours move outside the "within reason" realm and people have come here with the same issues you have, no buffers in the water, and you yourself recommend baking soda to boost kh and yet you have zero and a high ph and call it plant action. That's what I mean by making the definition suit your purposes. The difference between you and that person is that at least they can recognize that something is wrong. You have a myopic view of a planted tank.


I'm sorry you can't understand.

BTW my KH in my planted tank with peat moss is 4 degrees. With sand it rose to 19 degrees over several years.

For anyone reading this. PH rises do to plants action. Adding plants to any given setup, and having those plants thrive, and with no other changes will raise the pH on average over a 24 hour period. In my experience the lowest planted pH will be higher then the highest pH plant free. 

The reason is realitively simple to understand. the tank has become a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen each 24 hour period. 

And being as that is the only change I find it highly unlikely that any fish is harmed by that. 

In fact fish "requiring" soft acid water have lived for years in my tanks with the high pH.

So bottom line is that because fish live and breed in my tanks for years I'll continue to be "myopic". The success is very clear to me. *old dude

My .02


----------



## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

rubnu67 said:


> thnx tht link really helped! im torn between going with a jungle aquascape with loads of different species of plant and really packing them and a heavy fish/shrimp load on my new tank or japanese simplicity (like amano) with 2 or 3 species of plants and a load of cardinals and some sterbas and siamese algae eaters with some cool shrimp. any ideas?




If you can't decide, I would recommend.. ALL THREE! (just get couple more tanks) 

Snails. Cut back on the feeding. 
CO2. I'd recommend the 20# tank. 1) if you decide to have multiple tanks later on, you can split off the 20#. Mine feed a 37 and a 100 for 6 months. 

Get a dual stage regulator. They are more expensive.

Go with a nice (expensive) needle valve. I'm using the cheapies, and it's super hard to keep the bubbles per second(bps) the same day to day. I make a super fine adjustment today. Solenoid cycles on/off, and next day, I'm gassing my fish. (disclaimer: I was also trying to keep my co2 on the high side of the scale.)


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I'm sorry you can't understand.
> 
> BTW my KH in my planted tank with peat moss is 4 degrees. With sand it rose to 19 degrees over several years.
> 
> ...


Understand? What is so hard to understand? Do you need galloping elephant and jumping giraffe talk to get you to understand? Don't assume that just because you're not making sense, it isn't because people don't understand. It could be that you just don't understand yourself.

If I read this wrong about your kh http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/plants-ph-36166-2.html#post182593, I would go back to my original hypothesis as the reason your ph rises is from lack of flow or filtration. Maybe it was your use of a double negative that threw me off.

You are absolutely right that plants will raise ph. Not the argument. As proven here: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/plants-ph-36166.html but that change is only short term, not a continual climb and eventual set-in on value that's way off the mark from where it started once it left the tap. Not exactly sure what goes on in your tanks, I only know that if the methods you describe in your thread are followed to the letter people will end up here wondering why their ph has risen so high. 

Since the only difference between your tanks and mine are the methods by which they are maintained, then that leaves the methods that cause the "phenomenom" you term plant action. It is strictly a beasel-ism and only exist at your residence and nobody that I have spoken with - ever - deals with the same. Photosynthesis doesn't cause the beasel-ism.


----------



## rubnu67 (Mar 15, 2011)

FishFlow said:


> CO2. I'd recommend the 20# tank. 1) if you decide to have multiple tanks later on, you can split off the 20#. Mine feed a 37 and a 100 for 6 months.


what do u mean by this, i dont understand what you are saying :/
also what bps should i be aiming for, i might get a fluval C02 kit, will i still need to buy different parts?


----------



## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Maybe there could be another thread started on this topic for those who are interested to follow without taking over so many new threads.


----------



## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> So constant conditions are not necessairly stable. And stable conditions are not necessairly constant.
> 
> 
> my .02


Nicely said.


----------

