# Alkaline Water!!



## RoseE (Apr 4, 2012)

I had my heart set on Discus or Rams for my 75 gal tank but my water tests 7.8 to 8. Everything else reads zero. Has anyone ever had luck keeping any of these two in alkaline water?


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The discus may be able to handle it, but they won't ever like it. It will be a constant stress.
Unfortunately, what we keep can be decided by our water. The pH has little meaning - it's the hardness probably reflected by an alkaline pH that will make it or break it for the fish. How hard is your water?


----------



## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Blackwater.

You have a few options here. Just to name a few:

- peat in the filter (depending on the type of filter you have)
- Indian Almond leaves or other leaf fodder on the bottom
- you can buy blackwater extract or even make it yourself
- driftwood can help but you will need a lot of it to push the pH down to where you should be


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

None of those options will affect the hardness, or mineral content of the water, which is the issue. pH is just a secondary indicator of what the water is. 

I bred Apistogramma from pH 5.0 in the wild - wild-caught, for years. They'd spawn successfully up around pH 7 to 7.2, if the water was under 40 ppm GH. Above 40 pph, forget it. Testing pH will tell if a tank is crashing and turning acidic, but I think we look at it mainly because it is easy to measure compared to hardness.


----------



## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

navigator black said:


> None of those options will affect the hardness, or mineral content of the water, which is the issue.


Actually...that is incorrect...sry.

Blackwater is comprised of Tannins, which in fact lowers the water's gH and in turn, lowers pH.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Those all seem short term or at least will need to be replced often to keep the same effect going. IMO, a RODI would be better.


----------



## RoseE (Apr 4, 2012)

I was afraid so...I've done it all...all are short term fixes and not very stable. Might think about a RO system way in the future. Thanks guys...


----------



## amanda87 (Jun 19, 2012)

James0816 said:


> Actually...that is incorrect...sry.
> 
> Blackwater is comprised of Tannins, which in fact lowers the water's gH and in turn, lowers pH.


correct and it may also lowers the acidity in water :fish10:


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I will respectfully disagree with Amanda and James, though I see where they are coming from. Tannins are basically acid producing agents, and they increase (not lower) the acidity of the water. In well buffered hard water, you can pour blackwater extracts in by the bucket. They won't matter.
I used to make blackwater in tubs, and while Discus bore me, I have bred over 40 different Apistogramma. Nothing worked longterm but rainwater, snow water or RO.
There is nothing you can add to hard water that will make it work for rainforest fish. You have to attack the basic mineral content of the water through peat filtering it outside the tank, which gives you dark, unstable water, or through RO. 

Test your hardness and see how much of a problem it is. pH is just an easily read "symptom"/indicator. There are lots of neat hardwater fish.


----------



## bigcountry10 (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm doing an Amazonian tank right now, it's been up and running for about 2 months now. I do my own little cocktail of RO and tap water, my water ph was about the same as yours and I do 4 parts RO to 1 parts tap and it works great. I just get my water from the grocery store too, I can't afford a RO system and I live in an apartment. The water costs me about 3 bucks a week to do a 25% water change to so it's no big deal. The only problem I have is getting all the stares when i walk in the store with 18 gallon jugs.:fish-in-a-bag:


----------



## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

A very importent parameter in fish keeping is how clean the water is (low Nitrates). Both Discus and Rams would do fine at a ph of 7.5 and clean water. A simple and safe way to lower your hardness and ph is to slowly replace your tank's water with Distilled Water, 10% at a time would be great. To avoid shock do this every two or three days. When you are doing this you arre simulating rain water. Plants will also help with lowering ph. Make sure you have no Limestone or Seashells in your tank.


----------



## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm not too sure if there's any truth to this but, I was told to avoid distilled water due to the metals collected during the distilling process. Anyone able to add to this or debunk it?


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

RoseE said:


> I had my heart set on Discus or Rams for my 75 gal tank but my water tests 7.8 to 8. Everything else reads zero. Has anyone ever had luck keeping any of these two in alkaline water?


Depends on why the pH is high. Test for KH and GH also with the important one being KH.


Although I have never had discus or Rams I have had several fish that are reported to need soft water with a ph of 7 or lower. Yet those fish thrive and live for years in a pH of 8.4-8.8 (api high range ph kit) and a kh of 4 degrees.

My tanks have peat moss for a constant kh of 4 and live plants to lower co2. pH rises as co2 lowers. Hence the high pH.

So in my tanks the high pH just means low co2 which can hardly be harmful to the fish.

So as I stated to begin with depends on why the pH is high. *old dude


my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> My tanks have peat moss for a constant kh of 4 and live plants to lower co2. pH rises as co2 lowers. Hence the high pH.
> Ph does rise as CO2 lowers, but the amount of CO2 in water is not an indicator of how much CO2 is in the water.


 That is a beaslism and only you believe this. So the water out of my tap is 8.2 but after I run it through my RODI unit it goes down to 6.8....does that mean I injected CO2 with my RODI? Pretty nifty trick for a few filters......



> So in my tanks the high pH just means low co2 which can hardly be harmful to the fish.


Definitely characterized correctly...."in my tank".... Your tanks are the cause of your high ph. The situation only exist in your environments and anyone who follows your ideas.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Without knowing the KH values one cannot analze the original poster's or jr's tank conditions.


----------



## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm just going to throw it out there. Why not use buffers etc? Once the Gh/kh is right, get your ph right, so when you add it to the tank its already what the fish are used to. All the peat and driftwood are ok over time, for awhile but it has to "get there" over time. Why not just bite the bullet and go 15 bux in on some buffers, and call it a day? Your levels will hold more steady in the long run. No osmotic shock etc.


----------



## Kathleen Demers (Jun 27, 2012)

Nice work!


----------



## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

What do you mean by using buffers?

What a lot of people don't consider is how long you will have to do whatever you decide on. let's say you have four discus, which grow to adults. You will need an 80 gallon tank. You will change 30 gallons weekly to keep them thriving, all the while needing to provide water that is chemically the same as what is in the tank.
120 gallons a month of carefully doctored water... that's a lot of work. Discus live 4 or 5 years on average. 
You are hauling a lot of buckets over that time, and it won't always be fun. You will get bad colds, and the fish will get hole in the head. You'll go on vacation. Fall in love.
Clipping a hose onto the tap for water changes can be done while you are in love, sneezing, and watching your team lose in the Euro. You can still choose from all the fishes of Central America, most of Asia, eastern Africa, North America, and Australasia, and still have a beautiful tank. 
In the meantime, if you have room, you can set up a 20, get a pair of Apistogramma and learn how to work the water on a much smaller scale than Discus demand.


----------



## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Buffers. Acid and alk. Get your GH/KH right, and add a dash of the buffers and you're good to go. It's easy to work into your schedule whilst having a cold, falling in love, fixing a sandwich etc.


----------

