# Fish dying one by one



## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Sorry if this post is long winded. 

Looks like I have a catastrophe on my hands in my 20G tank. One by one fish have been dying. 4 platys so far have died, over the span of 2 weeks. Tonight, one of blue rams is not looking good. All the same symptoms. One day they're fine, eating well, swimming. The next they go off to a corner somewhere, breath hard, and then usually the next morning they're dead. Meanwhile, all the other fish seem fine. I cannot see any physical signs. No spots or what have you. Mind you, I'm a bit color-blind, and new to the hobby. I'll upload a pick of the latest dead fish to see if someone can point something out to me. I do de-chlorinate water before adding it to the tank during water changes.

I originally had 7 platys and 2 blue rams. After 3 platys died, I mistakenly chalked it up to various things, and did not think it was disease. I'm now inclined to believe otherwise. To make matters worse I made the mistake of getting a small siamese algae eater, and 5 zebra danios this past weekend (to replace 3 the platys). I actually only wanted a couple of danios, but they gave me 5 without confirming with me (I neglected to double-check). I assume that danios are not usually kept in schools less than 5, so maybe that's why they gave me 5. I've also got 1 Amano shrimp, which seems to be okay. It moulted yesterday and is scurrying about.

Anyway, I've got a planted tank, about 8 weeks old, with the following parameters:

ph: 7.3
NO2: 0
NH3: 0
NO3: 20 (down from 40 a week ago)
gh: 30ppm 
kh: 20ppm
Iron: almost none
PO4: almost none

One thing that's weird is that the gh and kh have dropped from what they used to be. I think I read somewhere that it could be due to heavy plant growth? My tap has values more than double this. I thought maybe this was causing osmoregulation issues. I've added a small amount (less than a tspn) of baking soda twice this week. I also added a capful of Seachem's Replenish. I've done four 20% partial water changes in the last week, trying to keep things clean and the nitrates down. During the day I run about 1 bubble/s of CO2. At night I run a small air stone. I have not seen fluctuations in ph though. Could be because I have 2 HOB filters going right now (one has been on since the beginning, and the other only 1 week) and the CO2 perhaps doesn't not stay in the water. I do not dose ferts very much. Once or twice a week I dose Seachem potassium, and Seapora trace. I have dual 24W T5 10000k lights, but these are new. Before it was dual 18W T5 6500K lights (I've been trying to get micro sword to grow). My plan now is to dial things back just use 1 of the 24W lights and no CO2 for a while and see what happens.

I've read here and there of other people having something similar happen. One-by-one fish breathing hard, and then dying, without out much visually to go on. I also put less than a teaspoon of aquarium salt in the tank tonight, hoping to help with the ram's respiration.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Images:


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## catfisherpro (Apr 5, 2013)

Do some extra water changes


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

catfisherpro said:


> Do some extra water changes


The ram died last night. 

I'll try a 50% water change today, and vacuum the substrate as much as I can. I was going to feed the fish, and then do that. Should I hold off on the feeding? 

I would get a med of some kind, but no idea what I'm dealing with. I've got an extra tank, which has not finished cycling yet, so can't quarantine.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What are you using to test with? I don't think you need to add any baking soda unless you have seen your ph fluctuating. I haven't converted ppm to deg but your kh needs to be about 3dkh and you should be good.

What is your ph just before your CO2 goes off? Does it return to the value before CO2 started? It should bounce back to pretty close to what it started at. If your kh is low then when your CO2 starts and drops your ph it can continue to go down.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> What are you using to test with? I don't think you need to add any baking soda unless you have seen your ph fluctuating. I haven't converted ppm to deg but your kh needs to be about 3dkh and you should be good.


I'm testing with this kit:
http://www.amazon.ca/RC-Hagen-A7860-Master-Test/dp/B0002568FO

My kh is pretty low. 20ppm is barely over 1dkh. I have never been able to catch the ph fluctuating though. 



jrman83 said:


> What is your ph just before your CO2 goes off? Does it return to the value before CO2 started? It should bounce back to pretty close to what it started at. If your kh is low then when your CO2 starts and drops your ph it can continue to go down.


I'll test this afternoon. Right now the other fish seem okay. Just waiting for the next one to start panting.

One thing.. when I went back to the aquarium store where I bought some of my stock, I noticed that the guy had thrown a dead fish into the Amano shrimp tank, and they were eating it. This is after I bought the shrimp from there (and the rams and some of the platys). I wonder if this was a habit of his, and whether the shrimp brought disease into the tank? Mind you, the first die off in my tank was before I got the shrimp. It seems like a dodgy thing to do though.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You need to get some crushed coral and add to your substrate or put into a filter bag and in your filter. Baking soda is not the best route and very temporary and has to be added after each water change. You also need to stop CO2 until you do this. I suspect that your fish may have been experiencing too much ph flux brought on by the low kh and the CO2 just exaserbated the problem.

If you do the crushed coral thing. Add slowly and retest. Let the tank go without CO2 for a while to make sure you get an accurate test. There are calculation tables on the internet to determine how much coral you will need and it will bump your ph up a tad.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> You need to get some crushed coral and add to your substrate or put into a filter bag and in your filter. Baking soda is not the best route and very temporary and has to be added after each water change. You also need to stop CO2 until you do this. I suspect that your fish may have been experiencing too much ph flux brought on by the low kh and the CO2 just exaserbated the problem.


I'll see if I can find some crushed coral today. The declining kh is a bit odd. I read that if there is lots of processing in the nitrate cycle, that acid is produced, and this can bring down kh. I can't imagine I've had that much decomposition. My max nitrate measured was 40, more than a week ago. Several partial water changes brought that down to about 10-20. I've also read that some plants will use carbonates as a source of carbon if they don't have enough CO2. It could be my substrate, which is Netlea brown (for plants), and known for initially producing a lot of ammonia (which I confirmed for the first 4 weeks). Also, I think for lowering ph. It did lower my ph when the tank was cycling, down to 6.5, but the ph has slowly climbed to 7.3 since then. When I started to add fish, the ph was maybe 7.0 or 7.1. The max I've seen is maybe 7.4, although not quite I thiink.

I tested my ph this afternoon just before I turned the lights off and it was 7.2, down from 7.3 last night. Is that a significant enough drop? What if it had gone down to 7.1? Would that cause this issue? I can't figure why it doesn't affect all the fish at once though. The remaining fish seem to be enegertic.[/QUOTE]



jrman83 said:


> If you do the crushed coral thing. Add slowly and retest. Let the tank go without CO2 for a while to make sure you get an accurate test. There are calculation tables on the internet to determine how much coral you will need and it will bump your ph up a tad.


Yeah, I'll try to add slowly. Don't want to change things too drastically. One thing's for sure, my next tank will be a large one, to avoid big swings in water parameters.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Okay, so I asked my partner to look at my tests (since I'm partially color blind) and she said that the pH measurement I took today was actually 7.6. This is just before turning off the CO2. What's weird is that tonight, after CO2 had been off for more than 6 hours, and an airstone running for 2 hours, the measurement is now 7.2-7.3. That's the opposite of what I would expect, no? Why would pH go down once CO2 is turned off? See below pics:

Here's the measurement in mid afternoon:


And the measurement tonight:


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

I remembered that I added about half a teaspoon of baking soda to my tank yesterday morning, so that *could* be be why the pH rose, but why would it decline after I turned off the CO2 in the afternoon? One thing I read that if CO2 is lacking, plants will start to use carbonates in the water, so that may lead to a lowering of pH if the kh is already low. I know that plants grow at night because I've seen the growth overnight. They gotta get carbon from somewhere for that. This is all very finicky.

Anyway, no more deaths since yesterday. I've lowered the light intensity slightly. Well, I have a quad light fixture that has a timer for each pair. One pair is actually just 1 10000k bulb. That is set to come on at 8am and go off by 2pm. The other pair is 1 10000k bulb, and 1 actinic bulb (yeah I know it's more for coral, but I thought I would try it), which comes on at 11am and goes off at 4pm. I also turned off CO2. I added a teaspoon of crushed coral to a bag in the filter. I'll measure kh tonight. If it does not go up, then I'll know the plants are sucking it up. Hopefully the pH will be stable today. If the kh stays high enough, then I should not have to worry about pH anymore.

If, after this there are still deaths, then I will have to assume it's disease, and perhaps I will need to get a uv filter.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

freediver said:


> I remembered that I added about half a teaspoon of baking soda to my tank yesterday morning, so that *could* be be why the pH rose, but why would it decline after I turned off the CO2 in the afternoon? One thing I read that if CO2 is lacking, plants will start to use carbonates in the water, so that may lead to a lowering of pH if the kh is already low. I know that plants grow at night because I've seen the growth overnight. They gotta get carbon from somewhere for that. This is all very finicky.


I forgot that CO2 uptake by plants goes down at night, yet CO2 production by fish continues, although maybe not as much as in the day. I guess this could account for the drop in pH after the lights go off.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Have had the CO2 off for several days now. The air bubbler as well (since I currently have 2 HOB filters running on this tank). Another fish died. One of the new Zebra danios. Found it at the bottom of the tank yesterday morning with an Amano shrimp munching on it's eviscerated gut. The 2 Amanos seem to be doing well. Both have molted. What's more surprising is that there is a very small Platy fry that's survived the last couple of weeks, and is growing.

One thing, I removed the activated carbon from the newer filter a few days ago. The color of the water was yellow at one point, I supposed because of dissolved organic compounds. I read that these compounds actually help protect fish because they can bind metals and perhaps other toxins. Not sure if the carbon was removing toxins the DOCs were not getting, or the other way around. I'll leave the carbon out for now. The new filter has been hanging on the tank for almost 2 weeks now. I'll remove the older filter soon. 

Still have not seen the remaining blue ram eat, ever. Didn't see the pevious ram eat either, although I believe they might have torn off some leaves. I don't know how the remaining ram is still alive. I put some of the pellets in the back, and they drop down, but I haven't actually seen him eating. The other fish dive right in there. It does come out more now though. Maybe it's eating snails. There are pond snails in the tank, but less than there were before I got the rams.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

try frozen blood worms if you are concerned about the ram.It WILL eat them.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

freediver said:


> Have had the CO2 off for several days now. The air bubbler as well (since I currently have 2 HOB filters running on this tank). Another fish died. One of the new Zebra danios. Found it at the bottom of the tank yesterday morning with an Amano shrimp munching on it's eviscerated gut. The 2 Amanos seem to be doing well. Both have molted. What's more surprising is that there is a very small Platy fry that's survived the last couple of weeks, and is growing.
> 
> One thing, I removed the activated carbon from the newer filter a few days ago. The color of the water was yellow at one point, I supposed because of dissolved organic compounds. I read that these compounds actually help protect fish because they can bind metals and perhaps other toxins. Not sure if the carbon was removing toxins the DOCs were not getting, or the other way around. I'll leave the carbon out for now. The new filter has been hanging on the tank for almost 2 weeks now. I'll remove the older filter soon.
> 
> Still have not seen the remaining blue ram eat, ever. Didn't see the pevious ram eat either, although I believe they might have torn off some leaves. I don't know how the remaining ram is still alive. I put some of the pellets in the back, and they drop down, but I haven't actually seen him eating. The other fish dive right in there. It does come out more now though. Maybe it's eating snails. There are pond snails in the tank, but less than there were before I got the rams.


The last ram is not doing well now. Breathing kind of hard. Seems to have nothing to do with pH though. I measured the max pH difference, and it's highest in late afternoon at 7.6, and then drops down to maybe 7.4 by evening, and stays there. None of the other fish are having a problem right now, that I can tell. All measurements continue to be fine. Ammonia, nitrite are 0. Nitrate hovers around 20ish in the tank. My kH keeps going down, but I believe that's because of the need for carbon by the plants . My lighting is still kinda bright. I'm cranking down the light a bit more again.

One thing I've noticed is that I think most of the fish issues have come after water changes. I only do 20-25% changes, so it's not like it's a big shock or anything. The pH of my water is about the same as my tank, around 7.5. I've been reading a book on fish health, and they mention that if problems occur after water changes, and you've ruled out other things, check for metals. My iron has always been low. I'll have to go out and get a check for copper, and what else I'm not sure. I'm thinking of getting my water professionally tested. What doesn't make sense is that it's always just one fish at a time. And there's still a baby platy in there that has been doing well, and getting bigger. Any water quality issues should affect this little one first. The shrimp are fine as well, and I believe they're known for being more sensitive.

I've had the CO2 diffuser off for a while now, and it's obviously made no difference. Two fish have died since then. Meanwhile my plants have been doing terrible. Lots of wholes in them now, and looking weak and some are kind of bleached. So I'm turning it back on. I would use a liquid CO2 booster, but I'm not sure if that's going to add some additional stress in the tank. 

It's still possible there's a disease here, but damn if I can find it. I will upload a pic of the first ram that died, and likely I will be uploading another pick of the latest fish to die tomorrow. Very depressing.

Anyone who can think of what might might be the issue, throw me a lifeline.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> try frozen blood worms if you are concerned about the ram.It WILL eat them.


I tried that. They always stayed hidden. They might have gotten some of it when I left the room. Don't know for sure.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I have found that baby fish and baby shrimp can adjust to water much easier than adults. Not surprised your Platy fry is still doing well.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> I have found that baby fish and baby shrimp can adjust to water much easier than adults. Not surprised your Platy fry is still doing well.


plus one!

im not sure what it is about mollies and platties, but they seem to be much more sensitive to water quality than other fish.

specifically, they seem to be more sensitive to osmotic pressure. babies are usually able to survive whatever water quality they are born in, even if it kills the adults.

it may just be that you ended up with fish that had been moved from one water type to another and were not able to adjust. 


that said, i have seen a much higher mortality rate when fish go from low osmotic pressure to high osmotic pressure. in other words, from saltier water to less salty water. 

i would suggest adding a little bit of aquarium salt, if anything. it seems fish can go into more salty water with less adverse effects then when they go into fresh water.

i do know, however, that moving a wild platy from a spring in florida to half spring water and half RO water will result in a higher mortality rate than moving them into RO water with salt added.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Auban said:


> plus one!
> 
> im not sure what it is about mollies and platties, but they seem to be much more sensitive to water quality than other fish.
> 
> ...


Found my ram upside down in the tank, still alive, but breathing hard. I prepared a bucket of water with water conditioner and a teaspoon of aquarium salt. Roughly the same temp as the tank, maybe slightly warmer. Moved him into that, and he tried valiantly to stay swim and stay upright. He kept ending upside down. I did notice him coming to the surface a number of times. Breathing hard. I guess his gills stopped working properly. I filmed some of this and will probably upload. I put a small heater in the bucket, and left him there. He'll likely be dead sometime overnight.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Here are pics of the previous ram that died:


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## Chang Cindy (Sep 17, 2013)

really sorry to know that ,hope they will be fine again soon


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

well, that changes things a bit.

ok, lots of fish dying, in rapid succession, showing problems breathing. 
maybe some neurological affects right before it starts gasping?
my old nemesis, flexibactor columnaris. 

if you can, check the gills of fish that die. look for areas that are discolored. you will likely see what looks like a mix between inflamation and, for lack of better term, stripping. it will literally look like someone dripped acid in the fishes gills. 

if you see something like that, its definitely columnaris. if you dont, it could still be columnaris, but you might not be sure.

there are two different types of columnaris that are common in the pet trade, a fast killer and a slow killer. unfortunately, the fast killer doesnt show much in the way of external symptoms before it starts killing. it can often be seen on the gills, however.


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## freediver (Aug 26, 2013)

Auban said:


> well, that changes things a bit.
> 
> ok, lots of fish dying, in rapid succession, showing problems breathing.
> maybe some neurological affects right before it starts gasping?
> ...


Thanks, I will have to check next time (I guess the fish will keep dying). The ram died last night, and I took pics, but did not lift the gills. I'm somewhat color blind, so it's hard for me to tell these things.


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