# beaslbob taken to the next level



## smartypantsgc9 (Nov 6, 2011)

I am about to confuse you a lot so BEWARE!
Ok, I understand the beaslbob method pretty well. But, what if it was taken to the next level? What if you didn't have to feed the fish? Hmmmmmmmm...... :fish9: So my main question is, how would you do it? Assuming you have unlimited aquarium size and you were a gazillionare.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Put it outside, call it a pond, and allow nature to provide the food for you?


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

Summer said:


> Put it outside, call it a pond, and allow nature to provide the food for you?


thats what i would think lol


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## smartypantsgc9 (Nov 6, 2011)

Well, that's not exactly what I mean. I am not actually doing this. What I am saying is how do I make an aquarium(inside) have a complete ecosystem. I might do this in 50 years if I am rich and famous by then. I understand that fish eat fish but what would the fish at the very bottom of the chain eat? I doubt it would go to the surface to get bugs because another fish would get to it. :fish9: I think I am confusing myself more than I should. I guess this is almost impossible to do inside.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Yea i think it would be impossible to have a completely independent ecosystem in such a small container, even if it were a large tank. You can never completely mimic what true nature is on a domesticated scale. if that's what you want to see, you need to go out into the great outdoors and view it in all it's actuality.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

on a small scale i would definetly see this as impossible but i guess given enough space to make not only an aquarium but also a terrarrium with insects and what not to recreate nature, but even then i think you would still have to have some hand in it somewhere..


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## smartypantsgc9 (Nov 6, 2011)

Summer said:


> Yea i think it would be impossible to have a completely independent ecosystem in such a small container, even if it were a large tank. You can never completely mimic what true nature is on a domesticated scale. if that's what you want to see, you need to go out into the great outdoors and view it in all it's actuality.


Such beautiful words... *o2


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

Summer said:


> Yea i think it would be impossible to have a completely independent ecosystem in such a small container, even if it were a large tank. You can never completely mimic what true nature is on a domesticated scale. if that's what you want to see, you need to go out into the great outdoors and view it in all it's actuality.


I have to agree. there is absolutely no way to condense the ecosystem we call Earth. A fish tank on average is what, 16 cubic feet or less? The world is Trillions+ cubic feet. There are not weather patterns in a tank or seasons ect. It would be next to impossible to do this on such a small scale.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

I would think you'd need a source of food that fish eat. You'd have to someone incorporate a system that grew and sustained fish food, on it's own.

Not that this qualifies for your criteria, but there is something called an auto brine hatchery. You add eggs and it hatches brine and eventually, the brine find their way into the main tank to be eaten by baby angels. Something larger scale and automatic introduction to the main tank kinda ver off what a beaslbob method is (KISS). 


Could be an interesting converstation though.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

jccaclimber said:


> 2) Algae is a significant part of keeping the earth's waterways in their "stable" state.


And provides a large portion of the oxygen in the air we breath.

Does sound more like a pond. A whole other level.....go from doing near nothing to completely nothing. Whatever, happened to liking to tinker and mess with things? I actually enjoy doing most of what I have to do with my tanks (the maintenance). It's peaceful, keeps me busy, relaxes me, eases headaches, lowers blood pressure (not my issue)....all the stuff that makes the hobby such a great one. The TV keeps me on the couch enough...I prefer to get my hands dirty...I still cut my own yard (1.5Acres), change my own oil, rotate my own tires.....damn, we have grown lazy.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

So I'm going to the next level? *pc


Hmmmmmmmmm.

But something to consider.


One step toward that direction would be some kind of in tank refugium so algae/pods and the like could thrive.

It might be possible to keep a few fish that way for a few years anyway.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

If nothing else at least people in this forum are thing about these things.

Instead of always reaching for filters, chemical, water changes and the like.


my .02


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I've got an interesting ecosystem going on in my 10 gallon tank....

Filter is used for growing moss and providing water circulation ONLY. NO media in there at all aside from some moss-clogged foam.

About 100 RCS in there with 3 fish. The RCS eat garbage, the fish eat RCS babies. Great population control, the fish are very vibrant and active because they're getting live food, and the RCS require little to no feeding.

However, I'm running a 48W T5HO over the tank, injected CO2 from a DIY setup, and RO water with fertz, so in a way I'm screwing with my tank in a REVERSE beaslbob method


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Gizmo said:


> I've got an interesting ecosystem going on in my 10 gallon tank....
> 
> Filter is used for growing moss and providing water circulation ONLY. NO media in there at all aside from some moss-clogged foam.
> 
> ...


dern

now we gotta define what a reverse beaslbob is.*old dude


<------ backing up


my .02


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm with ben on this one. I like to be involved in my tank, adjusting things, and just tinkering around with it. And I can vouch that since I've begun this hobby almost 3 months ago I've seen a remarkable drop in my blood pressure, I suffer from full blown hypertension and since playing in the tanks I'm *almost* normal without medication. Part of the hobby is raising fish and watching and being involved in what they do, part of it is being an "artist" and making it something worth staring at, and part of it is always changing something and learning something new.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

If the tank is in your bedroom and it's established and doing well, you get some crazy cool fish dreams as well


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## smartypantsgc9 (Nov 6, 2011)

I guess you guys are all right. I like maintaining my aquariums too. I am just curious on how it would work and how the food chain/web would work.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> dern
> 
> now we gotta define what a reverse beaslbob is.*old dude
> 
> ...


That is just a tank that gets regular water changes and ph stays where it started - done!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

^ lol! XD


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Lol.

In my most honest opinion,you have a tank,with fish plants water.you do no real maintenance on it,and now you dont wanna feed it.

Sell the tank and get one of those screensavers.


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## smartypantsgc9 (Nov 6, 2011)

majerah1 said:


> Lol.
> 
> In my most honest opinion,you have a tank,with fish plants water.you do no real maintenance on it,and now you dont wanna feed it.
> 
> Sell the tank and get one of those screensavers.


That made me literally laugh out loud.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

+1

perhaps we'll eventually have

1) a basic beaslbob
2) an intermediate beaslbob
3) an advanced beaslbob
4) and a reverse beaslbob
5) a forward beaslbob
6) a marine beaslbob
7) a sideways beaslbob
8) a backwards beaslbob
9) an I dare you beaslbob
*old dude

and a general *r2

not even worth:

.02


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

majerah1 said:


> Lol.
> 
> In my most honest opinion,you have a tank,with fish plants water.you do no real maintenance on it,and now you dont wanna feed it.
> 
> Sell the tank and get one of those screensavers.


yup, that.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

ok gotta throw me .02 in here.. you take the step to get into this hobby..you have a responsibility to the living oranisms in that tank..they are alive just like you and i..imo anyone that just sets a tank up..and let it do its own thing with no water changes, so just plain out lazy and shouldnt have a tank to bein with..and sure there is the Walstead method, but im sure this is not what she had in mind..i enjoy working on my tanks..like Ben said..it relaxes me..maintaince is part of this hobby..dont wanna do the maintaince..get out of the hobby.

Rick


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

On a more serious level the beaslbob builds are not based on no maintenance but rather the maintenance I have found that provides the best possible environment for our fish. It is not even less expensive because the money spent on plants equals or exceedes filters and the like.

So it actually is a case of low maintenance and working smart instead of avoiding work.

still Just my .02


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

i think thats just a excuse..for what it cost for a aqua clear 70 HOB filter i can buy enough plants to plant several large tanks..so if you are saying plants cost more money to keep your tanks up to par than a filter..im not buying it.

Rick


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

whitetiger61 said:


> i think thats just a excuse..for what it cost for a aqua clear 70 HOB filter i can buy enough plants to plant several large tanks..so if you are saying plants cost more money to keep your tanks up to par than a filter..im not buying it.
> 
> Rick


perhaps I over pay for plants and under pay for filters. *old dude


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> On a more serious level the beaslbob builds are not based on no maintenance but rather the maintenance I have found that provides the best possible environment for our fish. It is not even less expensive because the money spent on plants equals or exceedes filters and the like.
> 
> So it actually is a case of low maintenance and working smart instead of avoiding work.
> 
> still Just my .02


You mean your fish I think. You have said in previous postings that your methods may not work with all species of fish or plants.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

well lets do an experiment..lets put you in a trashy confined area with little to no ventalation..you stay in there and when the trash and stuff starts to rippen up and turn to toxic levels..guess what you get infections..if the routine doesnt change guess what your a gonner..

another experiment..you say you dont do water changes just top off..same area no ventalitation., except for someone throwing a switch on to give you a little air..oh opps they neglected their duties and forgot to do their top off and flip the switch..you are a gonner again because you ran out of air 

and please dont insult my intellence by saying you never forget, because no one in this world is perfect

that said

Have a Nice Day

Rick


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

whitetiger61 said:


> well lets do an experiment..lets put you in a trashy confined area with little to no ventalation..you stay in there and when the trash and stuff starts to rippen up and turn to toxic levels..guess what you get infections..if the routine doesnt change guess what your a gonner..
> 
> another experiment..you say you dont do water changes just top off..same area no ventalitation., except for someone throwing a switch on to give you a little air..oh opps they neglected their duties and forgot to do their top off and flip the switch..you are a gonner again because you ran out of air
> 
> ...


Neither of those apply to "my" methods.

It is just not a don't do water changes but rather balance out and stablize the tank with thriving plant life. then water changes are irrelevant, unnecessary and may infact degrade the tank.

the actual question actually becomes whether the plant action in the tank produces healthier tank water then the water we replace with water changes.

still just my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> You mean your fish I think. You have said in previous postings that your methods may not work with all species of fish or plants.


I presume the only possible truth is that these methods would not work with some kind of setup.

Like say cichilids with in display plants.

But I am actually extremely pressed to think of any example where aquatic plants thriving and protected in some kind of refugium would would not allow any fish to thrive.

and I have not tried all combinations as well.

So better safe and say they may not work with all fish. Then mention the fish and plants I have had success with.


Still just my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think your definition of stable and mine are different. If a ph starts at a given value, say 7.0 (the value you say your water is from the tap or thereabout) and it continues to rise over a period of time...this is not stable. Plants in a tank do not cause a tank ph to continue to rise and rise and rise until it peaks out at 8+ (another value you have given).

"Plant action" does not cause this. My shrimp tank goes between 7.2-7.4 depending on when I take the reading. The lighting period is 8hrs and it is pretty heavily planted. The use of CO2 by the plants changes it by a couple of decimal points - tops. So although you may be seeing some fluctuation of ph due to plants using the CO2, the CO2 value just doesn't continue to be sucked and sucked without CO2 going back in. The exchange with the surface of the water and air will put CO2 back into your tank, same as oxygen. If you can just show me one reference where it says that plants cause a high ph and that is the value your tank ends out at and stays, I'll believe it.

Otherwise, I believe your ph continues to climb due to a lack of maintenance and an increased level of dissolved solids that has no way of diminishing because no water is ever removed from the tank except through evaporation.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

I've certainly spent more on plants than what I can purchase an aq70 for. (And (point) I considered my 37 no where near close to being *heavily* planted.. Still waaaay too much dirt visable. )


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

how does it not apply to your methods..you are doing the same thing to your fish..and saying plants make ph go up is just outragous..like ben says show us proof i i will also believe it..until you do i will leave it to bad tank maintaince..but i dont think you can give the proof..im old enough to realize what bs is bs, but newbies here dont know the difference when they read this bs.

Rick


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> I think your definition of stable and mine are different.
> 
> ...


Perhaps a definition of stable is in order.

First balance. Which is that point where say pH is balanced out at some level.

that level can be either stable or unstable. 

What staibiliy is not (necessairly) constant. 

So we start if some balanced condition.

Stability is the measure of the reaction of a system when moved from the balanced (steady state) condition. If the system tends to return to the balanced condition that is positive stability. If it tends to deviate further away from the banalced condition that is negative stability or the system is unstable.

So when I first setup a tank over time things move to some balanced condition. pH could be 7.5 8.3 whatever. Once at that condition stability is what the system does when it deviates from that condition. And that condition does not have to be constant. You can have a very stable daily pH drop for instance. But those pH values through the day can be stable. If something move the pH up or down, the system reacts to restore the balanced daily pH drop.

Plants prefering to consume ammonia over nitrates is a very good example of stability. the plants consume the extra ammonia while the bacteria build up keeping ammonia low.

just my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

whitetiger61 said:


> how does it not apply to your methods..you are doing the same thing to your fish..and saying plants make ph go up is just outragous..like ben says show us proof i i will also believe it..until you do i will leave it to bad tank maintaince..but i dont think you can give the proof..im old enough to realize what bs is bs, but newbies here dont know the difference when they read this bs.
> 
> Rick


As you already know pH rises as carbon dioxide lowers.

Plants lower carbon dioxide.

So high pH means low carbon dioxide.

Which I hardly think is unhealthy for the fish. And why fish like tetras and hachetfish reportely requireing pH of 7 or less thrive and live for years with a pH of over 8.0 (api high range test kit).

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry, but just because methods "eventually" level out and hit a point that you call balance, does not make it a condition in an aquarium that ANY reference would call safe and much less stable. Ph rising like you say in any other situation you can read about in ANY reference is a bad sign. For you, you call it the point of reaching balance? That just cracks me up.

I have read both Walstad's and Kasselmann's books on keeping planted aqauriums and none mention the phenomenon with ph as you describe it going on in your tanks. They both do however, mention that putting a layer of peat under your substrate is not recommended because it decays, Maybe that is what drives up your ph? Either way, it still boils down to an accumulation of dissolved solids. There are quite a few species of fish and there are ZERO shrimp that couldn't live in your tanks. Raising only Neons, Platies, and Guppies should not imply a universal application to anything that may be out there to keep in a tank.




> As you already know pH rises as carbon dioxide lowers.
> 
> Plants lower carbon dioxide.
> 
> ...


I knew this would eventually come out. We're all aware that Ph goes up and down when plants pull out the usable CO2 in a tank. That is not what is causing your tank to go high in ph. In this answer, since we know your ph starts at 7.0 and end up in some mid-8 level, how come it doesn't just keep getting higher? Have the plants stopped pulling out CO2? 

Your tap is 7.0. Mine is 8.2. Are you saying that the only reason the two differ is because one has more CO2 than the other? Why is it then, back when my tanks were not injected with CO2, didn't I see levels of 9+ because my plants were using all of that CO2 and see them all big bright and beautiful green from all the CO2 in my water? Take a sample of your water and my water and put them in a aerated 5g bucket side-by-side....within 24hrs they will have the same CO2 content, but the ph will have changed very little - fact.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I highly doubt the method of topping off and no filters would work with my fish.I have tons of plants in there,very lightly stocked.And if i miss one waterchange they fish are clamped up and stressed.They lose color and go off food,which for voracious pigs is a sign of a serious issue.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I ran a walstead tank for over a year with just topping off, very heavily planted and my ph remained the same so how do you explain that. The ph was 7.1 and remained there the 2 years.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> I ran a walstead tank for over a year with just topping off, very heavily planted and my ph remained the same so how do you explain that. The ph was 7.1 and remained there the 2 years.


did you have circulation?*old dude


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes I did, a powerhead in a 75 gal as Walstead recommends circulation or the water gets stagnant.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What it implies to me is that it is not the setup that changes the ph, it is the lack of what most people would call normal maintenance. So then are you saying that it is not plant action, as you call it, that is causing a continuous rise in your ph, but more the fact that you lack filters and circulation? These don't affect ph in a "normal" tank that I'm aware of. Circulated water will help settle out a ph after it has come out of the tap, but once it gases out, its all the same.

Again, the mere fact you question a particular setup item means that it is your method that causes the ph rise, nothing more. This rise does not happen in any other tanks that I've read about. Why doesn't Walstad mention that plants cause a high ph? Any idea?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jccaclimber said:


> A valid question. However, are you implying that water circulation changes long term pH values that much?


Nope

Is was coming out and saying it. *old dude

Just looking for differences in methods.

I always thought that circulation was for air gas interchange.

If "my" methods do result in co2 values lower then surrounding air, then circulation would increase the water co2 values and decrease pH.

But this wasn't the case in my marine tank where pH rose from 7.5 to over 8 a day after adding macro algaes. That had plenty of circulation. And kH values only slightly higher then my peat moss FW systems. (But much lower than my sand only Fw systems).

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Going back to what you said about high ph means low CO2 and vice versa....still not quite getting how you are figuring that?

I realize that if I take two containers of the same water and inject CO2 into one of them, that container's ph will lower...and in this example what you say would be true.

However, it doesn't work wehn referring to any ph value. For instance, my tap ph is 8.2, but once it goes through my RODI system the water comes out at 6.8. By your description of ph it sounds like my RODI system just injected a ton CO2 into the water.

Again, if I take your tap of 7.0 and my tap of 8.2 and aerate them both for 24hrs they both now contain the same amount of CO2, but their values have probably changed by .1 or less.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Nope
> 
> Is was coming out and saying it. *old dude
> 
> ...


There it is...if it is your methods that create the situation, then just come out and say. From my POV, methods should not matter unless it is those methods that cause the situation. When all is said and done water is water, plants are plants, and an aqaurium is an aquarium.....we are the same in that respect. But if what you describe is not seen by anyone except you, then it HAS to be the method of maintenance or running of the tank that causes it. Your plants are no different than mine, and the things that affect ph are the same in my tank as they are in yours or anyone else's.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I love my fish and I like my tinkering and OCD tendencies. That's all there is to it, as far as I'm concerned.

Different people have different methods. Just because somebody's methods don't make sense to someone else (for example, some guy on the forum mentioned using barley concentrate as a fert or something weird like that) doesn't mean they're doing anything better or worse than me. Different ways, same result (well being of the fish).

Only time I would say bob's method would cause any harm to the fish were if he were to transfer them to a maintenance-intensive tank after a prolonged period in a bob tank. Osmotic shock would be a problem, as would the potential introduction of disease (like the Spanish Conquistadors and the Mayas). Otherwise, pH rise or no, as we've seen and preached many times before fish can handle a very broad range of water parameters so long as they are kept stable.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow.....crickets. I would have thought there were very simple answers to my questions. Guess not.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> There it is...if it is your methods that create the situation, then just come out and say. From my POV, methods should not matter unless it is those methods that cause the situation. When all is said and done water is water, plants are plants, and an aqaurium is an aquarium.....we are the same in that respect. But if what you describe is not seen by anyone except you, then it HAS to be the method of maintenance or running of the tank that causes it. Your plants are no different than mine, and the things that affect ph are the same in my tank as they are in yours or anyone else's.


agreed 100%..i have not ever seen that in any of my tanks.

Rick


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> There it is...if it is your methods that create the situation, then just come out and say. From my POV, methods should not matter unless it is those methods that cause the situation. When all is said and done water is water, plants are plants, and an aqaurium is an aquarium.....we are the same in that respect. But if what you describe is not seen by anyone except you, then it HAS to be the method of maintenance or running of the tank that causes it. Your plants are no different than mine, and the things that affect ph are the same in my tank as they are in yours or anyone else's.


+5


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