# Q about watching levels after cycling



## *Angie* (Sep 29, 2010)

So now that my tank completely finished cycling, how often should I be testing the water, doing water changes, etc? Particularly, as I'm working on stocking the tank, after adding new fish, should I expect to see changes like the nitrites spiking again, etc? If so, when should I expect to see it (after a few days, a week, etc)?


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

You should be doing a regular 10% water change every week, or 20% every two. You should expect a new (but less severe) cycle starting every time you add new fish. You should try not to add too many fish with each new addition, since the percentage change in the population will determine the size/severity of the ammonia spike and so on. With regards to when to do the water tests, I would say watch the behavior of the fish and if you see anything that causes you concern, do a test to see what extent the water chemistry has changed, with the idea that if the test reveals dangerous changes you may need to do an emergency partial water change.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm a big fan of a little larger water changes....somewhere in the 30-45% range. I do 50% a week on all my tanks though. I would test your water at least once a week.

There will be slight changes in your water chemistry when you add fish, but they may occur without you ever seeing them. That will change if you add too many at once, however. I've added 15 fish at once to a 75gal and never saw any change. It occured, just never saw it.


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## *Angie* (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm only planning on adding 2-3 fish at a time. This time I ended up with 4, though... I asked the fish store guy for one cherry barb and didn't notice til I got home that there were two in the bag!

When deciding how many to add at once, does size matter at all? Like, is adding 3 big gouramis comparable to adding 3 tiny neons, as far as how they'll affect the water cycling?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not the same. The bigger the fish, the more the waste they'll poduce. One big Gourami will probably produce more than 3 neons.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I prefer to put only one fish at a time but how much food you put in the tank has as much to do with it as how many fish. Try to increase the amount of food gradually when you put new fish in the tank.


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## rtbob (Jul 18, 2010)

Once the initial cycle has fully completed monitor the nitrates weekly and keep the level below 40ppm. You should not have any ammonia or nitrites unless a mini cycle is triggered.

A mini cycle might be triggered by over cleaning the tank, removing to much of the beneficial bacteria. Also adding to many new fish at once can cause a spike in ammonia as mentioned in previous posts.

If you have not tested your tap water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates then you should do this also. Let the tap water sit at least 24 hours before testing it.

On my four tanks I do a weekly 25% water change and rinse the filter pads in tank water. During this maintenance the gravel is not/barely vacuumed.

Once a month I remove all the decorations and fully vacuum the substrate. At this time I remove 40% of the water. The filters are not rinsed during this maintenance. 

Using the above routine keeps my nitrate levels less than 40ppm and I have yet to start a mini cycle to my knowledge. I quit testing for ammonia and nitrites after a while because of constant readings of zero.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm not sure about the 50% advice - is this so you can do less frequent water changes? Everything I've read says 50% is the max you can do without stressing your fish, but that small frequent water changes cause less stress and keep water quality more consistent (and in my case, involve less lugging of buckets) but I guess what works for you is what works, better large infrequent than no water changes at all.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

50% is what I do because of EI fertilyzing and done weekly. I use a de-watering system. Buckets don't work very well with nearly 160g worth of water removed.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Just pulled up an article on IE - interesting approach. It just doesn't really sound like a method I'd recommend to somebody new to the hobby. As long as the weekly tests are coming back in the "good" range, indicating that there's no overfeeding and the stocking of the tank is okay, I'd tend to stick to the 10% weekly guidelines just because its easier. New fish keepers will keep up with good habits best if they are simple, and because it does cause less stress to the fish population. In a lot of ways cleaner is not better in aquarium keeping.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

*Angie* said:


> So now that my tank completely finished cycling, how often should I be testing the water, doing water changes, etc? Particularly, as I'm working on stocking the tank, after adding new fish, should I expect to see changes like the nitrites spiking again, etc? If so, when should I expect to see it (after a few days, a week, etc)?


well perhaps

but with my planted tanks I do no testing.

(actually I lied, I did no testing for decades then did some testing recently which just confirmed it all worked.)

I also do no water changes and have no mechanical filters as well.

Just me and my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The *only* thing I recommended was a 35-40% weekly water change and testing weekly. Nothing else.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

There are those who advocate a weekly (or so) test for nitrate then doing a water change when the test reveals nitrates above a predetermined level, say 40 ppm. Whatever works, works, I suppose.

Personally, I do a 50% water change every week. I test everything prior to the WC but, as someone else suggested, since ammonia and nitrite always register 0, I may cut out such frequent testing for those. My nitrate, following this schedule, is always 5-10 ppm.

I have juvenile fish right now but I know, as they grow, so will my nitrate level. I am hopeful that weekly water changes will continue to be adequate then.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I guess my point is, the weekly partial water changes, if your biological filter is working correctly, and your ammonia and nitrite are at zero, is solely to reduce your nitrate load, which most even densely planted tanks can't reduce to zero. But if your nitrate level is already zero, what is the additional percentage water change meant to achieve?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Peace of mind - for me (before EI anyway). The thing about this hobby is not many things are black and white and usually it comes down to what works for you and not what anyone says.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, I think that's fine for individual practices, but from the point of view of what we're teaching new people, it makes sense to let them know why we're doing things as well as what we do, and the amount of what we do that's really necessary and the amount that's just extra. 

I'm not sure why the additional percentage gives you peace of mind, but that's all that's really important, isn't it? Myself, when I started fishkeeping in the 70's there was this attitude of "everything must be cleaned and recleaned and stripped down and lalala" and I spent an enormous amount of time rinsing gravel and crap like that (gravel that I'd cleaned only a month before) when the new philosophy of "let the microorganisms grow and do what they know how to do" came along it was really liberating. The idea that I could just remove a small percentage of the water, and the water would continue on happily being recycled by the microorganisms living in the tank itself was really revolutionary for me, and the fact that the fish and the plants and the inverts really thrive in this almost do nothing system seems miraculous to me. But you still have people who tragically will kill their own hard won biofilters in the pursuit of some kind of sterility when they start out. I guess I feel like once they've succeeded in that first cycling we should encourage them to observe and enjoy this little miracle and take a deep breath and just see how much they need to do to maintain it. Eventually they'll gain confidence and do reading and decide how they want to deviate from established wisdom, as we all do.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

And just for the record.

Up until last year I had 2 10g planted, a 29g reef, a 55g mixed reef, a 20g planted, a betta bowl, and a 1g planted "neon nano".

Didn't measure the betta bowl but did monitor the reef nitrates and occasioually the fw planted nitrates. 

All of the tanks measured 0 nitrates with the api test kit (clear transparent light yellow no hint of any orange/red or cloudiness (could not spell opaqueniss LOL). The reef tanks measured undetectable phosphates with the salifert phosphate kit as well (0-.25ppm absolutely clear results not even a slight ting of the red color). Didn't test the FW tanks for phosphates.


All tanks never got a water change and had been running 2-7 years.

IMHO it is not unusual for planted tanks to have undetectable nitrates. With my tanks it is the norm.

my .02


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Good for you. I'm guessing the proportion of fish to plants is low, or the plants are very fast growing. My 55 is mostly Bolbitis heudelotti with only about 15 fish and inverts but I still get some nitrates, mostly due to the eating habits of my Pomacea bridgesii. If you were going to weigh plants v animals you would get about a 50 to 1 ratio, 50 being the weight of the plants 1 being the weight of the animals. Even with that high a ratio, and a tank that's been happily perking along for 14 years, I still have to watch my nitrates, my ph and especially my carbonate hardness, but that's not a beginner issue. 

Even a beginner with a heavily planted tank and super lights and a full co2 system can't rely on no nitrates starting out. Remember what forum we're in. Try not to give advice a beginner can't follow.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Congratues on your 14 year old tank.

my 10g had 20-30 guppies with 6 reporducing adults. The 20g 5 silver hatchetfish and 20-30 platies. The 55g mixed reef, soft corals, a yellow tank and regal tang (3-4"), yellow watchman gobie, purple pseudochromis (spelling lol) and couple of clowns, a very large bangai cardinal, and a 4-5 saltwater catfish. All of those fish had been in the tank for oveer 2 years. The 29g just a couple of clowns.

What I recommend is lotsa plants but no high lights co2 and the like. Then add fish slowly. With or without nitrates the beginner has an easy setup that is stable and safe.

Still just my .02


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I can easily get behind the go slow approach, that would be my advice as well. Its so much easier to get old timers to go one or two fish at a time than it is to get new fish keepers to do so, 'cause those rows of tanks at the LFS are so seductive. 

Its like that with the information we have to hand out, too. We need to go a little slow with these folks, keep it simple, maybe find a single voice. When we all get well meaning and one of us says no water changes and one of us says oh why not change it all, and somebody else says everything in between, what's the person who came to us supposed to think? What are they supposed to do? It would be hard for them not to feel frustrated or confused by all the conflicting information. Worse yet if they picked something that was supposed to be easy and it didn't work for them.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

Wow. Has Bob done something to irritate you?



chris oe said:


> maybe find a single voice.


A single voice is inconsistent with the concept of a FORUM. This is a forum.



chris oe said:


> When we all get well meaning and one of us says no water changes and one of us says oh why not change it all, and somebody else says everything in between, what's the person who came to us supposed to think? What are they supposed to do? It would be hard for them not to feel frustrated or confused by all the conflicting information. Worse yet if they picked something that was supposed to be easy and it didn't work for them.


What you describe as "conflicting information" I would describe as different methods THAT ALL WORK. If someone wants a "single voice" source, perhaps they would be better served by reading an article or a book than soliciting advice from a forum.

Bob's advice may not be something you would try. It may not be something I would try, for that matter, but it obviously works FOR HIM.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm sorry if I sounded irritated, I really don't feel irritated. I feel bad for the newbies who are getting all kinds of conflicting information. I have no desire to pick on anybody personally.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

It's all good, Chris.

Ultimately, I probably agree with a lot of what you said anyway. Bob's method of throwing a few plants in with your fish, then never testing or changing the water, is not one I see myself ever being comfortable trying. That said, it obviously works for him, and he is a very experienced fish keeper.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Just for the record.

I am not irritated nor do I want to irritate.


Just sharing my experiences.

Most of which were formed before we had all these test kits.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If I were just a new newbie, I call it that because I still consider myself somewhat of a newb, I would not read this thread and get ANY conflciting advice. What I would gather from it is that I really should do at least a roughly 20% weekly water change, but I'm also okay if I wanted to go as far as 50%. Nothing more.

If you are of the weekly water change mind set, then personally I believe changes toward the larger side are the better way to go. Reason why - it will have a larger impact on negative things that could be affecting your water. Things like raise/lower in ph, disease, high nitrates - for a multitude of reasons that could start many other issues, keeps your water quality high, raise in ammonia or nitrite that you may not be aware of......this is just not beginner issues and you could go on with a potential list of issues that water changes correct. And since water changes do impact issues...generally speaking one towards the larger side will have a larger impact. 

Bottom line, if someone says change 20% and another comes along and says 35% or 50%, who is more right or who is less wrong? In this case, nobody is wrong and everyone is right. By all means jump on the person that recommends a 75% water change. But if the advice is sound, regardless if it conforms to your own practice, there is less of a need to criticize it.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

But we also have somebody saying I never do water changes I never have any positive nitrate readings - and never doing water changes would be as bad an idea as too many or too much. Is it too much to ask to save experimental and fringe stuff for the experienced forums and keep the beginner advice more within the pale?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nobody has recommended to not do water changes and nobody has even recommeded to do a 50% water change even...only given what they do. That is not always transferred to "this is what you should do", although sometimes could be taken that way.

Going along with your suggestion, I think a 50% water change is better for people new to the hobby.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Speaking from the fringe. *old dude

I may be blunt and for those who have not tried these methods I fully understand everyone's concern.


But there are some very technical geeky reasons for just allowing the tank to take care of itself. In the case of nitrates with plants (i prefer) or bacterial action.

by reducing nitrates through either action carbonates used up in the aerobic ammonia->nitrITe->nitrate action are returned to the system. by removing nitrates through water changes those carbonates are removed. Which has an effect on KH and possibily pH.

Additionally by not doing water changes any long term effects are obvious much sooner. Hopefully before expensive fish are added. So the root inbalance can be addressed.

Plus the water changes in and of themselves can crash the system.

finally water changes when correct limit but not correct any changes to the envornment. For instance if you have something increasing between water changes and have been doing water change long enough so that the something is the same before each change, that something will build up to (tank change)/(fraction of water change). So if you have say a 1ppm/day nitrate increase and do a 20% (1/5) water change each week you have a (1*7)/(1/5) =35ppm nitrates just before the water change). an 10% would be 7/(1/10)-70ppm

hence we have many many newbies (especially with salt tanks) post gee I doing my water change and still have 50-90ppm nitrates.

But with plants (macro algaes for salt water) consuming the nitrates, the nitrates levels are unmeasureable regardless of the water change schedule being used.

so at first the "fringe lunatick" (I am laughing ) may appear to be dangerous or complicated. But actually balancing out the aquarium with plant life is not only easy but to me essential. 

If for no other reason that the new aquarium owner gets feed back in the first week on the condition of the tank as reflected by the plants.

But that's just me 

and my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think it's "lunatic fringe"......according to Red Rider anyway - what a great song that was.  You would not get any argument out of me on whether or not you're a lunatic...I promise.:animated_fish_swimm


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