# Trying To Cycle With Flakes; Is It Working?



## Gumbo_Ghost

Long story short, I had to start over from scratch on my 55 gallon.

The guy at the fish store recommended using fish flakes to initially cycle the tank, saying that's how he's done his own tanks in the past.

So I wasn't exactly sure how much food to put in, but I put in like 6-7 pinches and waited.

Now my tap water has an Ammonia of like 1PPM to begin with, which sucks...
So it was 1PPM Ammonia for a few days, with 0s everywhere else.

Today, the 7th day, I'm getting some other readings.

Ammonia - 1PPM
Nitrite - .5PPM
Nitrate - Around a 8PPM, almost a 10

So I guess it's working? The food is creating enough Ammonia to start the cycle?

Would you add more food now, or just let it go until the Nitrites and Nitrates drop to 0? I'm not sure if the Ammonia is going to completely drop to 0 since the whole tank was 1PPM to begin with.
I might have to get some Amquel or something.

Thanks.


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## jrman83

I would let it ride if its working for you, which it looks like it is. Adding more now may drive your nitrites real high. 

How long has it been cycling and how are you testing?


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## Gumbo_Ghost

It's been about 7 days since I put the food in.
I'm using the API liquid testing kit.


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## jrman83

Okay, now I understand a little better. I'd add a pinch of food everyday to every other day until it finished.


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## probe1957

Did you seed the tank with some beneficial bacteria from another tank, by chance? Your readings strike me as a little strange. I find it odd that you have readings for all three parameters.

I would add more ammonia source. Fish food seems to be your choice. I think you should try to get the ammonia level to around 2ppm. Maybe even higher.

Has your test kit expired? Do you have any live plants in the tanks?


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## beaslbob

do not add amquell!!!!!!

Looks like you're progressing nicely.


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## jrman83

beaslbob said:


> do not add amquell!!!!!!


Word.


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## Amie

I cycled my 15gal with fish food. I added 1 flake per day until all numbers were 0 except nitrates.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

probe1957 said:


> Did you seed the tank with some beneficial bacteria from another tank, by chance? Your readings strike me as a little strange. I find it odd that you have readings for all three parameters.
> 
> I would add more ammonia source. Fish food seems to be your choice. I think you should try to get the ammonia level to around 2ppm. Maybe even higher.
> 
> Has your test kit expired? Do you have any live plants in the tanks?


No, I didn't seed it with anything.
Except I did put about 5 live plants in, which where in a LFS tank, so maybe that helped seed?

The test kit is a brand new API one.

Like I said, my tap water has an Ammonia reading of 1PPM, but the Nitrite and Nitrate were 0 for days.
So if it's weird for them both to pop up, I'm not sure what's going on.

I tested it yesterday, and the Nitrites are even higher, around like a 2PPM. Will test again tonight.

I know that the Nitrates come last supposedly, but maybe the plants have something to do with it?


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## Gumbo_Ghost

As far as the Amquel goes, I was talking about eventually adding that to the tap water when I do water changes down the road.

Not now.


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## beaslbob

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> No, I didn't seed it with anything.
> Except I did put about 5 live plants in, which where in a LFS tank, so maybe that helped seed?
> 
> The test kit is a brand new API one.
> 
> Like I said, my tap water has an Ammonia reading of 1PPM, but the Nitrite and Nitrate were 0 for days.
> So if it's weird for them both to pop up, I'm not sure what's going on.
> 
> I tested it yesterday, and the Nitrites are even higher, around like a 2PPM. Will test again tonight.
> 
> *I know that the Nitrates come last supposedly*, but maybe the plants have something to do with it?


That is only true if you start a plant and bacteria free tank and let bacteria build up.

Starting a tank with plants is different because the plants consume ammonia directly. And while doing that they consume less nitrItes and nitrates (espceially nitrates) so you can get an initial nitrate spike with no ammonia/nitrIte spikes.

then as the bacteria build up and start consuming ammonia, the plants are forced to consume nitrates instead. So the final part of the initial planted cycle is nitrates drop down.


my .02


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## automatic-hydromatic

Amie said:


> I cycled my 15gal with fish food. I added 1 flake per day until all numbers were 0 except nitrates.


how long did that process take?


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## beaslbob

automatic-hydromatic said:


> how long did that process take?


Depends upon how the tank is setup. With a heavily planted tank with plenty of fast growing plants about 3.5 mili seconds. For a tank with no plants it can take a month or two.

.my .02


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## automatic-hydromatic

beaslbob said:


> Depends upon how the tank is setup. With a heavily planted tank with plenty of fast growing plants about 3.5 mili seconds. For a tank with no plants it can take a month or two.
> 
> .my .02


lol

got cha


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## kweenbee2791

It seems that your flake-method is working slowly. My advice is go to your local pet store and explain your position and ask them for just a half a handful of gravel from an established tank. I did and they threw it in a baggie for me and sent me on my way. It worked like a charm. A couple weeks and I was good to go. You could even offer to pay shelf price for an ornament inside a tank, that is obviously established. If these are not possiblities, keep up with the flakes until you have a good water reading for at least a week before adding new fish.:goldfish:


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## Amie

Make sure to get water with that too. If it dries out it's no good. And if you don't want it in your tank after I suggest putting the gravel in a NEW unwashed pair of panty hose and tying it over. Then simply let it stay in the tank and every few days squish it around in your hand to help get some extra bacteria out. 

My cycle took about a month.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

So these are my current numbers...

Ammonia - .25PPM
Nitrite - .5PPM + It's off the charts purple
Nitrate - 20 PPM

In the last 2 days, the Ammonia has dropped (Maybe because I haven't added any more flakes since the initial ones, but like I said Tap Water is a 1PPM)

The Nitrite has sky rocketed to like a .5+ it's very very purple.
And the Nitrate has gone up from 10 to 20.

Is this going as scheduled? Just a big NitrIte spike?


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## jrman83

The nitrite spike seems to be what happens with a fishless cycle. Do you mean 5+ on nitrites? Give it a few days, if it remains high like it is try doing a water change to bring it down to a lower level.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Yeah, the Nitrites were around a .5PPM, probably even higher but I ran out of colors...

I guess eventually it'll all go back down to zero, but i don't want to be one of those people who are like, "Well, after 4 months I'm finally cycled..."


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## probe1957

I really think you're about there. I am assuming, since your nitrite is off the chart, that it is over 5 ppm, and not .5 as you keep saying.

The presence of nitrite in your water will throw off your nitrate test by about the same number as your nitrite. So it really is possible that you have very little if any nitrate.

What I would do is a water change to get your nitrite down to where it is measurable. I would shoot for a number there of around 3 ppm.

Hang in there and be patient. This will work.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Right, sorry, it's a 5PPM (Not .5)
Yesterday it was still hovering around a 5PPM or even more.

The Nitrate had gone up as well to maybe a 25-30PPM

And the Ammonia was still around a .25PPM

Perhaps I'll do a little water change today.


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## probe1957

Perhaps your eyesight is a damned sight better than mine. In fact, since I am old, let's call it likely. Point being, it is hard for my old tired eyes to tell the difference, WRT ammonia, between 0 and .25.

Do a 50% water change then recheck your nitrite. If it is still off the chart, do another 50% water change tomorrow and recheck.


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## chris oe

I'm not sure why you're being advised to do a water change for high nitrite levels. Cycling involves culturing microorganisms that convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate. If you do a water change to remove nitrite the microorganisms will not have as much to eat and the culture will not grow as quickly.


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## jrman83

Because stuck high nitrite readings take a good while to come down. The last tank I cycled fishless my nitrite levels were at an unreadable level - same as this case. It took 3 50% water changes to get it down to 4 on a 125gal tank. It was at that unreadable level for nearly 2wks. Once the level was down to 4, the tank finished the cycle about 3 days later. Leaving it in a stuck high state could add X number of days. Hard to leave it that way when all you want if for it to finish.


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## probe1957

Jrman's experience is consistent with mine and is the reason I recommended a water change...or two...or three.


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## chris oe

Hmm. I wonder if there's a level above which the nitrite is toxic even to the microorganisms that eat it, not that it would kill them, but perhaps just knock them into some kind of holding pattern? Curious. 

I often wish it were possible to get hold of some actual ammonia in an aquarium safe standardized concentration, maybe packaged with instructions on exactly how much to add per gallon per day in order to do the fishless cycling properly, perhaps with instructions on how to get a good starter culture from an established tank (say from a friend or a pet store) and with a chart to show what to expect from your test kit on what days (more or less) and when its safe to add how many fish.


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## beaslbob

Contrary to my plant ideas I have started marine tanks with no plant life because I had not heard of macro algaes. and I did get nitrIte reading the pegged the test kit (api test 5PPM+) for days and on my first marine tank for weeks (over a month) after I added fish.

What I did was stop adding food and after about a week the nitrIte reading dropped to 0 in a couple of days. After that experience I just don't add food on a new tank after adding fish and the nitrIte kit would peg for a day then drop down. With macro algaes (FW plants) all I get is a small 1ppm or so spike for a day.

I have heard of using food for cycle and heard it called phantom feeding the tank. The idea is the bioload comes from the food so you are simulating feeding the phantom fish. 

I don't like the idea because the food "rots" in the bottom which I would think can cause fungus and other problem. Plus the waste products are not the same as a live fish.

but people have used the method with success. I just think it's better to get the plant life thriving then add fish with no feeding to keep the bioload low. That way the plant life can balance out and stabilize the system.

Still just my .02


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I did about a 70% water change yesterday morning.
Last night it was still deep deep purple, 5PPM
And this morning it's still the exact same.

70% change didn't knock it down at all...*frown


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## probe1957

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> 70% change didn't knock it down at all...*frown


Hang in there. I had the EXACT same results when I cycled my tank. As I recall, it too three MASSIVE water changes to get my nitrites down to a readable level.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Thanks...
I did another 35% or so this afternoon, I'm about to test it.
Wanted to give it a few hours to mix up, I'll post the results.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

So after taking out about 70% in the last 24 hours it's down from like a 5PPM to a 4PPM.
Not a huge improvement...


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## jrman83

Just watch it now. I wouldn't do anymore water changes.


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## beaslbob

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So after taking out about 70% in the last 24 hours it's down from like a 5PPM to a 4PPM.
> Not a huge improvement...


5ppm is the test kit max to the initial value could have been much higher. So the actual change may have been much greater then measured.


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## probe1957

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So after taking out about 70% in the last 24 hours it's down from like a 5PPM to a 4PPM.
> Not a huge improvement...


Because your nitrite was off the chart prior to your water changes, you really don't know how much of a change you made. It could easily have gone from 20 ppm down to 4 ppm now.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

This is all true.
I guess just a tiny bit of Nitrite goes a long way, since I've changed out nearly all the water almost over the past few days.

Today it's still around a 4-5PPM

But you're all right, it might have been around a 20...

I do have a bottle of Dr.Tim's One and Only, which I bought online. It's like Tetra Safe Start.
It says it basically gets rid of Ammonia and Nitrite and makes the tank safe for fish immediately.

I was going to use it, but then decided not to. Think it would help at all, I might use it...


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## probe1957

You have it. Use it.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I just wasn't sure if it was meat for tap water, if it'd knock down really high levels of Nitrites.
It supposedly has live bacteria


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## jrman83

I've used Dr Tim's before if it is the nitrifying bacteria. I think it helped my 125g cycle. Can't hurt.


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## probe1957

I believe it will help. You are at the same stage where I added Tetra Safe Start. My tank was cycled 2 days later.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Well, I put it in there about 2 hours ago.
And the readings haven't changed at all.

It takes a few days once you put it in? If so, why do they all say "add fish immediately"?

I wouldn't want to add fish if it's still at 4PPM Nitrite and traces of Ammonia...

So I guess I should wait it out, and see if it improves magically? Or should I go in search of Nitrite Down type of a product?


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## probe1957

Yep. Be patient. You may well be adding fish this weekend.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I'm growing to hate patience


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## Amie

I would not have put anything in. If you start adding (or removing) the bacteria growths artificially then you are probably just delaying the cycle. If you add bacteria to get the tank ready then eventually what you added from the bottle is going to be gone and you still might not have enough grown yet, so you might then have the fish in the tank and then have the cycle not finished.


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## probe1957

Amie said:


> I would not have put anything in. If you start adding (or removing) the bacteria growths artificially then you are probably just delaying the cycle. If you add bacteria to get the tank ready then eventually what you added from the bottle is going to be gone and you still might not have enough grown yet, so you might then have the fish in the tank and then have the cycle not finished.


That's why I added 2 ppm of ammonia after the tank was apparently cycled to verify that it indeed was.


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## jrman83

Amie said:


> I would not have put anything in. If you start adding (or removing) the bacteria growths artificially then you are probably just delaying the cycle. If you add bacteria to get the tank ready then eventually what you added from the bottle is going to be gone and you still might not have enough grown yet, so you might then have the fish in the tank and then have the cycle not finished.


The Dr Tim's product is a good product and I've had success with it and I added about the same time. May or may not make a difference, but it shouldn't slow it down.

DON'T add any chemicals.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I just thought that it would knock down the Ammonia and Nitrites right off the bat.
Still really no change in 9 hours or so.


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## jrman83

You may not see too fast of changes. Nitrites may stay for a while. Are you reading any nitrates?


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Today the Nitrites around about the same.
What that number is, is hard to say, but it's the same color as it's been since I put it in and have been doing WCs.

It's like somewhere between the 2PPM and the 5PPM I think. It's hard to tell...

Ammonia is like a .50
Nitrate is a 5PPM now, down from the 20s. From WCs I assume.

But WCs have no effect on the Nitrite apparently.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Just a bit of an update, I did more and more water changes and it didn't do a thing really.

So I bought some Amquel Plus, which says it won't affect the bio-filter and detoxes ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.

I put a little bit in on Friday, and on Saturday and Sunday it knocked the Nitrite to 0.
But today it's back up to around a 2PPM

It's like there's a Nitrite fountain at the bottom of the tank. So many water changes, Amquel, and it's still there...
All from some fish flakes about 3 weeks ago


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## Amie

I'm wondering if maybe by adding stuff like Amquel you are removing the ammonia nitrites and nitrates which basically means that you've put your cycle back to the beginning again. I think that might be what's going on but I'd like someone else's opinion that knows more about the nitrogen cycle then me.

If it were me at this point I would consider this the beginning again and would add 1 flake of food per 10 gallons of water and do that everyday until the tank is cycled the old fashioned way. Forget the Amquel and an conditioners this time. Also, take a 5 gallon bucket of water and fill it from the tap. Test it right away and leave it out for at least 24 hours and check it again to see if the ammonia and such have changed, since you said you have stuff in your tap water.


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## chris oe

Hopefully you already know this, but here goes:

Cycling is really just culturing organisms, like growing live cultures in milk to create yogurt. When you throw fish flakes in your tank, you're counting on bacteria to eat the flakes and release ammonia, kind of like the fish would, except you don't care about the bacteria, if they get burned with a little ammonia, no big. 

Ammonia in your tank gets eaten by bacteria that turn it into nitrite. When your ammonia goes to zero it can either mean all the ammonia has been eaten and there is no more, or that ammonia is being produced, but there is a big enough bacterial culture in your tank that it can eat all the ammonia as soon as it is produced, keeping your tank in an essentially ammonia free state. Yay bacteria. 

Then bacteria that only exist where there is nitrite begin to grow, changing your nitrite into nitrate. The more of these bacteria there are, the bigger culture of these you have, the more nitrite your bacterial culture can change into nitrate. So while the fish are producing ammonia, and the ammonia eating bacteria are producing nitrite, ideally a culture of these nitrite eating bacteria are eating up the nitrite and producing nitrate, and when there is enough of these, even though more nitrite is being produced, it will look like there is no nitrite because it is being eaten up as soon as produced. 

Then we've got the nitrate, which if you have a wildly lush beautifully balanced planted tank the plants can use as plant food, thus lowering your nitrate levels, some people tell me eliminating the nitrate completely. Huzzah!

What I'm wondering is what is happening when the nitrite gets stuck. Is it that the nitrite bacteria aren't present and so can't get the culture started, or is it that the nitrite is so high the growth of nitrite eating bacteria is supressed somehow? One way or another this seems to be a problem people solve by doing partial water changes. This could introduce nitrite eating bacteria, it could also lower the level of nitrite, however it works, so long as it works. 

Use of Amquel and things like this. When you use water additives, you are essentially binding things like ammonia into more complex compounds that make them less toxic to fish. The ammonia is still there, and eventually I've been told the bacteria can still break down even these compounds of ammonia, so I don't know why these additives would stop the cycling of the tank. I could see why binding the ammonia would slow it down, the more complex a molecule is, the more work the bacteria could potentially have to do, I suppose, to break it down completely, but once one stage of bacteria have broken down the ammonia the next group get their crack at the next stage, So don't worry too much about the Amquel, it isn't going to mess up your cycling. 

I know this is going to sound like weird advice, but have you considered maybe just doing cycling with a couple fish in the aquarium? I'm just thinking, considering how much trouble you've been having...


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Thanks a lot for such a detailed response. I kind of new most of that, but I learn new fish stuff everyday.



chris oe said:


> What I'm wondering is what is happening when the nitrite gets stuck. Is it that the nitrite bacteria aren't present and so can't get the culture started, or is it that the nitrite is so high the growth of nitrite eating bacteria is supressed somehow? One way or another this seems to be a problem people solve by doing partial water changes. This could introduce nitrite eating bacteria, it could also lower the level of nitrite, however it works, so long as it works.


I've been doing a lot of water changes, not in the past 3-4 days, but before that when the Nitrite was way high, I was doing 40% daily almost. 

Like you mentioned, it just seems stuck



chris oe said:


> So don't worry too much about the Amquel, it isn't going to mess up your cycling.


That's what it says on the bottle, so I kind of figured that.



chris oe said:


> I know this is going to sound like weird advice, but have you considered maybe just doing cycling with a couple fish in the aquarium? I'm just thinking, considering how much trouble you've been having...


I'm open to cycling with a few fish, but I'm afraid that if I put them into the tank in it's present state they won't fair to well.

I'm able to do water changed daily, so that's not a problem, it's just that I feel bad dropping them into bad water.

Would a few Cichlids be ok with the Nitrite levels where they are? I could do WCs daily, and add the Amquel in as well.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Amie said:


> If it were me at this point I would consider this the beginning again and would add 1 flake of food per 10 gallons of water and do that everyday until the tank is cycled the old fashioned way. Forget the Amquel and an conditioners this time. Also, take a 5 gallon bucket of water and fill it from the tap. Test it right away and leave it out for at least 24 hours and check it again to see if the ammonia and such have changed, since you said you have stuff in your tap water.


1 flake?
When I initially put the flakes in, I did about 6-7 decent sized pinches.
Maybe there's just too much flakes, but I can't see them in the tank anymore and one day I tried to get quite a bit out thinking I put too much in.

I think they've all dissolved.

I'll do the water test tonight, I just know that testing it right from the tap it's a 1PPM.
And in talking to LFS people they all nod their heads and say "Yeah, we have that problem too, just the water around here..."


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## Gumbo_Ghost

This afternoon I did a 50% water change, and left a bucket of tap water out for like 7 hours.

The tap water that was left out read as following:
Ammonia - 1PPM
Nitrite - 0PPM

The water, after the 50% WC reads as follows:
Ammonia - .5PPM
Nitrite - 2PPM

I don't understand how after so many water changes the Nitrite is still that high. I mean, I don't see any fish flakes in the tank anymore, and you'd think that after the WCs it would dilute the Nitrite filled water that's in the tank.

I might just empty the tank completely, fill it back up, buy something like the Tetra Safe Start, and buy a few starter fish and see what happens.


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## jrman83

If you don't have fish in the tank, then you are wasting your money and time using any kind of additive to remove ammonia/nitrite. The ONLY reason you would add these is to save your fish. If you're using it thinking it will speed things along, it is the opposite that you will get.


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## Amie

Here is what it says on the AmQuel official website about the product:

AmQuel quickly and effectively
removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramines (three of the most toxic chemicals commonly found
in aquatic systems) from freshwater and seawater. AmQuel is the only true one-step liquid
ammonia and chloramine remover that is simple to use. AmQuel is completely unlike declorinators
which claim to "remove" chloramines. These products only break the chlorine-ammonia bond of
chloramines by simple dechlorination, leaving the ammonia in the water. The resulting ammonia
must be removed by adsorption on granular or powdered zeolites (clinoptilolites). 

It says it removes it. Not locks it but removes it so that' why I was thinking that you might be after messing up the amount of cycling that was already done. 

Also, you want to get the food to break down, adding the needed ammonia to get the etc etc etc you know the story but the idea is for this to be a continuous cycle. Food always breaking down ammonia always getting eaten up. If you don't keep adding ammonia on a daily (maybe even every second day) basis then you will get to the end of the cycle (that is, present nitrates and no nitrites or ammonia) but then the cycle will have to start over. Food (or fish or whatever) will have to be added, take the time to break down, then (since there is no more ammonia) that has to be produced again and after that is produced then nitrites will have to be produced again (since they are gone too) etc etc.


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## probe1957

GG, 2 ppm of nitrite isn't high. In fact, IMO, it is nearly ideal for what you are trying to do here. If it were me, I would add more ammonia. Real ammonia. Not this fish food that at some point in time will become ammonia thing.

What I expect would happen if you were to do what I suggest is, 24 hours after adding the ammonia, you would register nearly no ammonia and somewhat higher nitrite. What that would tell you is your filter system is working and the cycling process is moving along as it should. I really think that is the case anyway but adding ammonia to 2 ppm, then checking your levels 24 or so hours later would confirm it.


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## chris oe

The only problem with adding ammonia is finding a source of ammonia that isn't full of weird gunk, for instance: lemon scented ammonia is not a good idea in a fish tank. I searched high and low, and never found any, but I'd love it if somebody knew of a good, reliable cheap source of additive free ammonia.


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## probe1957

chris oe said:


> but I'd love it if somebody knew of a good, reliable cheap source of additive free ammonia.


Ace Hardware. In their cleaning section.


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## beaslbob

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> This afternoon I did a 50% water change, and left a bucket of tap water out for like 7 hours.
> 
> The tap water that was left out read as following:
> Ammonia - 1PPM
> Nitrite - 0PPM
> 
> The water, after the 50% WC reads as follows:
> Ammonia - .5PPM
> Nitrite - 2PPM
> 
> I don't understand how after so many water changes the Nitrite is still that high. I mean, I don't see any fish flakes in the tank anymore, and you'd think that after the WCs it would dilute the Nitrite filled water that's in the tank.
> 
> I might just empty the tank completely, fill it back up, buy something like the Tetra Safe Start, and buy a few starter fish and see what happens.


Stop doing water changes
stop adding food

I think you will be amazed how quickly ammonia/nitrItes drop down.

As you are finding out water changes will never bring nitrItes down to 0. Building up the bacteria so the tank consume nitrItes will.

I would also add plants like anacharis also incase you haven't already. Fully planted there would be no need for cycling with flakes, ammonia or whatever.


my .02


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## jrman83

probe1957 said:


> Ace Hardware. In their cleaning section.


Or, a local Mom and Pop hardware store like where I found mine.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

probe1957 said:


> GG, 2 ppm of nitrite isn't high. In fact, IMO, it is nearly ideal for what you are trying to do here. If it were me, I would add more ammonia. Real ammonia. Not this fish food that at some point in time will become ammonia thing.
> 
> What I expect would happen if you were to do what I suggest is, 24 hours after adding the ammonia, you would register nearly no ammonia and somewhat higher nitrite. What that would tell you is your filter system is working and the cycling process is moving along as it should. I really think that is the case anyway but adding ammonia to 2 ppm, then checking your levels 24 or so hours later would confirm it.


If I were to add Ammonia, as you suggest, and then after 24 hours the Ammonia level goes down and the Nitrites go up, how long do you think I am from the whole process being complete?

Where the bio-filter takes care of everything it needs to?

Also, if I buy pure Ammonia, how do you know how much to put in?



beaslbob said:


> I would also add plants like anacharis also incase you haven't already. Fully planted there would be no need for cycling with flakes, ammonia or whatever.
> 
> my .02


So if I were to add live plants, there'd be no need for cycling at all? I could just plant them, and then in a few days or whatever put fish in with no problems?

I had live plants, but they all browned b/c all I have is Pool Filter Sand in there. No Flourite or nutrients for the plants.


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## probe1957

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> If I were to add Ammonia, as you suggest, and then after 24 hours the Ammonia level goes down and the Nitrites go up, how long do you think I am from the whole process being complete?
> 
> Where the bio-filter takes care of everything it needs to?
> 
> Also, if I buy pure Ammonia, how do you know how much to put in?


I would expect your ammonia to drop and your nitrites to go up within 24-30 hours. How long from there until the process completes is hard to say. Based on my experience, 2 weeks. However, I really think you're further along in the process than that. I just want to confirm that.

To your question of how much ammonia. My 75 gallon tank, as I recall, 1 tsp would take it to about 2 ppm of ammonia. 2 ppm is about where you want to be. Add a little ammonia. Let it percolate for 1/2 hour, then check your level. Keep adding until you get to around 2 ppm. What I believe will happen is that level of ammonia will disappear, or nearly so, within about 24 hours.

At .5 ppm ammonia and 2 ppm nitrite I really think you're nearly there. Don't even think of starting over. The problem is, nearly there could still be 2 weeks. This just requires patience.

The problem, as I see it, with using fish food as your ammonia source is it takes some period of time for food to be broken down into ammonia. It makes more sense to me to just start off with ammonia and avoid whatever period of time that involves.


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## beaslbob

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So if I were to add live plants, there'd be no need for cycling at all? I could just plant them, and then in a few days or whatever put fish in with no problems?


The cycle is still going on just that the plants are preventing the ammonia spikes. I start with plants then add fish about a week later.


> I had live plants, but they all browned b/c all I have is Pool Filter Sand in there. No Flourite or nutrients for the plants.


I suspect you had other problems then the pool sand. with vals and anacharis and anywhere near normal lighting (1w/g+) they grow very quickly. all with no nutrients in the sand.

I would add some peat moss to your substrate to insure all types of fish will be fine. I put in the peat moss then sand on top but that is with a brandnew tank. You could have a dark mess for a few days by just throwing in some peat moss.


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## Amie

Well, that's one of the reasons that you add the fish food daily. It might slow the cycle down by 2 or 3 days but that's it because you always have more flakes in various stages of decomp so that when one flake is gone and no longer producing ammonia then there is another flake ready to start producing it immediately.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I just got back from my local LFS...
I asked him if they had anything filter media wise he could give me, and he said they had some Bio-Balls.

He went into the back, and came out with 6 or so balls. They looked really clean and new, so I asked him "So, are these used then..." and he said that they take them in and out of their tanks, but like I said they looked pretty clean.

He said to put those in the filter area for 3-4 days, then come back in and buy some Danios or something.

That was his suggestion, that what's going on in the tank is good, it just might take some time. And to also stop doing water changes.

I also bought some plants from them as well.

7 Vals, and 2 giant hunks of floating (Hornwoarth? Something like that)
They were all really cheap.

So I guess we'll see what happens.

Oh yeah, I also bought some $6 Tetra thing that said it would help plants. A liquid nutrient of some sort.


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## chris oe

I wonder if this is a Minnesota law to avoid bomb making or something, 'cause I tried every hardware store within miles of my house, including places like Home Depot, the grocery stores, the dollar stores, every place that had cleaning supplies, and everybody said well yeah, we used to carry plain ammonia but these days we only carry scented stuff with additives and junk.


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## probe1957

chris oe said:


> we used to carry plain ammonia but these days we only carry scented stuff with additives and junk.


No Ace Hardware in your area?


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Any thoughts on the Bio-Balls?
You think they're just new, would Bio-Balls that have been in use show wear and gunk?


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## probe1957

If they've dried out they will contain no beneficial bacteria.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

They were in a bag of water.
The water smelled pretty "fishy" as well.


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## probe1957

It won't hurt to use them, IMO. It may not do any good but it won't hurt.


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## chris oe

probe1957 said:


> No Ace Hardware in your area?


I went to Ace. I went to Hardware Hank. I went to Menards, Home Depot, you name it. Everybody tried to sell me lemon scented bubbly soapy stuff. "Yeah, we used to have plain ammonia, now our distributor only sends this stuff" 

But you can get the plain ammonia where you are, you shake the bottle, it doesn't make soap bubble foam inside the bottle? How recently? What state? Next time we're on a road trip I may have to keep my eyes open.


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## jrman83

Place I went had 3 different brands of plain ammonia, in my city/state.


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## probe1957

chris oe said:


> I went to Ace. I went to Hardware Hank. I went to Menards, Home Depot, you name it. Everybody tried to sell me lemon scented bubbly soapy stuff. "Yeah, we used to have plain ammonia, now our distributor only sends this stuff"
> 
> But you can get the plain ammonia where you are, you shake the bottle, it doesn't make soap bubble foam inside the bottle? How recently? What state? Next time we're on a road trip I may have to keep my eyes open.


Pee in the tank. That will work too.


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## jrman83

probe1957 said:


> Pee in the tank. That will work too.


LOL, don't start that discussion again.


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## probe1957

I know. I am bad.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

I checked out this different fish store today, asked them for some media and he was like "Eh... this right here will work basically the same"

And then he started talking about how great Seachem's Stability was.
7 cap fulls day one, and then 3 the rest of the way.
It's basically like a Safe Start I guess, he swore by it.

So I decided I'd try it, I have nothing to lose at this point. Do the week long treatment and put a few fish in I guess.

As an aside, if someone were to give you juice/piece of a filter pad or something like that, would it screw their tank up?
By not having enough good media left?

Because 4 stores I've asked all were very reluctant, and ended up not giving me any. And I don't know any other hobbyists.


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## jrman83

Personally, I think you should do a 50% water change and stop adding things and let it ride. Your tank must be a chemical sess pool.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

jrman83 said:


> Personally, I think you should do a 50% water change and stop adding things and let it ride. Your tank must be a chemical sess pool.


Not really. All I've used the the Tap Water Conditioner for Chlorine and Chloramines.
1 or 2 doses of Amquel and then I'll use this Stability.

You think I should just do a huge WC and just basically start from scratch with the Stability?


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## jrman83

No, I'm saying a 50% change with conditioner and that's it. Let it ride after that.


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## Gumbo_Ghost

Out of curiosity, what is UV/Ozone?
When something says turn off uv/ozone.

Does that mean lights and airpump I'm guessing?


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## jrman83

UV is a sterilyzer that is done with a UV light. On or off shouldn't have an impact on your cycle, if you have one. Ozone can be taken a couple of ways, I guess. There are ozone units that eradicate micro-organisms in your water. Very expensive and difficult to operate from what I've read. I guess it could be said that a UV and a Ozone unit perform the same function.

At least I don't think these affect a cycle. A UV will not kill your beneficial bacteria so I don't see how they affect it. I have them on 3 of my tanks to kill parasite and free floating algae.


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## chris oe

jrman83 said:


> Place I went had 3 different brands of plain ammonia, in my city/state.


Thanks for gloating. Apparently you are free to be less than lemony fresh where you are, and they trust you not to blow anything up. Apparently I can order plain ammonia over the internet if I am willing to spend $50 and get a case of bottles. I'm tempted to see if my brother the chemist can find me something in a standardized concentration (yes, I'm ignoring the do-it-yourself comment).


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## jrman83

chris oe said:


> (yes, I'm ignoring the do-it-yourself comment).


We all appreciate it!!


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## Gumbo_Ghost

After doing a massive water change, and adding the stability the Nitrite is down to a faint purple, maybe a .25PPM
And the ammonia is seemingly being processed because it's barely a .25PPM, while it's a 1.5PPM out of the tap (Right away or tested hours later)

Hopefully the Nitrite stays low and this Stability stuff works.


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