# Lost 2 fish in 12 hours...help!!



## Zwicker (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi all, it's unfortunate my first post is in this category, but I'm having a crisis over here. I just started my first tank (25gal), made sure all chemical levels were at zero, then went to petco to pick up my new pets, which were 3 serpae tetras according to the guy there. I introduced them into my tank and they were acting seemingly pretty normal for something that just got dropped into a brand new environment. Slowly moving together around the tank, exploring, but overall not too active.
So yesterday I checked the ammonia levels and it was in the 0.5-1 range according to the strip I used (going to get a liquid kit today). I decided to do a 10gal water change to lower this. THis is where things went totally bizarre.

1) As I was siphoning out the water 5gal at a time, I noticed that my filter (Penguin biowheel 330) stopped drawing water once the tank volume reached ~15gal. THis is a little concerning because it means I can't even do a 50% water change without turning off the filter because I don't want it turning without any water running through it.
2) Once I replenished the water and added the dechlorinator, the fish became very active, darting around, going up and down the glass, even wandering off independently from one another. I thought this was pretty cool until one of them started to clearly struggle as it was swimming sideways, flopping around, and gasping. I didn't know what to do so I tried another 10gal change, but ultimately it succumbed to what I assume was suffocation. I checked the ammonia again and it was still about the same as before the first water change so I let it be since the other two had calmed down.
I went to bed and when I woke up this morning, sure enough, another one had died. This has left me much more shaken than I would have thought, and I really want to find out why this happened. Some chemical in the hose I was using to transfer water back into the tank? Shock from the temperature of the incoming water (i tried to get it as close as possible to the tank temperature)? Something caused by me having to turn off the filter for ~10mins each water change? Bad fish to begin with?

Sorry for such a long post, but I'm concerned here. I don't want to do another water change until I can pinpoint the cause of the deaths, but I also don't want the ammonia to start building up with my one remaining fish. Thanks for any help and please let me know if you need more info.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Things will never be normal while a tank is cycling for your fish. Glad that you have opted for a liquid test kit to give more accuarate results. I would get an API master kit. You'll be able to test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and ph.

Personally, I don't believe you have a problem per se. The fish you chose to cycle the tank with may not be the hardiest to withstand what is going on. Keep doing what you're doing regarding water changes and try to keep the ammonia to 1 or below. If it gets above, do a minimum of 25% change. Start testing for nitrite and do the same for water changes.

Get a full test kit and come back and post all your results. Oh, and I shut down filters on all my tanks when I'm doing water changes.


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## Zwicker (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks for the quick reply...I guess there's a little room for optimism after all. For what it's worth, I tested nitrites/ates with a strip as well and both registered at 0, but like you said, a master test kit is the way to go so I'll update later with those results. Also, I'm thinking of picking up 3 or 4 more since apparently they are much happier in groups of at least 5. Do you think this ok despite what happened the other day and the fact that I'm still trying to establish my aquarium?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

No matter which fish you add, you risk loosing them while the tank is cycling. You could get a few Danios (if you like them) as they are known for being pretty hardy fish.


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## rtbob (Jul 18, 2010)

First off, Welcome to this forum!

I'm sorry about your loss.

You are treating your replacement water with a dechlorinater, right?

Turning your filter off is not the cause of your fish deaths. All HOB filters will quit working once the water level drops. They should be unplugged during water changes. Just remember to plug them back in when done and make sure they start circulating water.

Once you get your test kit you should test your replacement water from the source you will use for water changes. Let it sit in a uncovered container 24 hours before testing.

Since you only have one Serpae Tetra left you might want to consider returning it and doing a fishless cycle. Search this forum for "nitrogen cycle" should give you all the info needed for a fishless cycle and a with fish cycle,

Sudden swings in water temp can shock your fish. Your replacement water needs to be very close to the temp of the tank water. Check it with a thermometer.

Good luck with your new tank!


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Sudden fish death during cycling isn't normal. It sounds like there is a big difference between the water at your fish shop and the water in your tank. Test the water at you fish shop and compare those results with tests on your tank. I bet there is a big difference in one of the parameters. When I get new fish, I put them in a resealable plastic bag and gradually replace the fish shop water with my tank water.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Drip acclimation is best, but for a cycling tank it sort of throws out the "normal" rule of thumb for anything regarding fish well being. I don't know that sudden death is not normal but difficult to label anything with other issues happening concurrently.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I see a few possible causes of introduction of harmful chemicals to the tank:

1. Are you adding your dechlorinator to the water as it is filling the bucket, or adding directly to the tank? The former is ideal, as the dechlorinator circulates throughout the filling water to more effectively neutralize the chlorine and chloramine.

2. Are you using a clean bucket? Back in my early days, I thought it was OK to use our mop bucket, not realizing my mom was using Lysol to clean the floors in the same bucket (I was 12).

3. Are you dumping the water into the tank, or siphoning? The latter is the best, to help prevent shock due to a sudden inrush of new water.

4. As stated above, tetras are notoriously delicate fish (I've had them straight up die, decompose, and "disappear" before I even noticed their absence). Donate your last tetra and get some danios (my favorite are the zebra danios), or a single platy or molly, depending on which fish(es) you would like to keep in your tank. Your tank has just barely begun to cycle, denoted by the rise in ammonia. 25% daily PWC's will help control the rise of this concentration if you go the fish route. They will do the same during your nitrite spike, then your tank will be cycled when after 2-4 weeks you read 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite, some nitrate. Nitrate concentrations are OK, don't worry about lowering these concentrations (they will be lowered anyways as you change water to control ammonia and nitrite).

5. Even better, read some posts on here about a fishless cycle and go that route. If you get rid of your fish and add some source of ammonia (either straight ammonia, dosed daily, or a bag of decomposing seafood, or just daily dosings of fish food), you won't have to worry about daily PWC's, just a few big ones at the end of the cycle to lower your nitrate buildup and, more importantly, you don't run the risk of any more fish fatalities.

6. To facilitate the cycling of your tank, get some dirty filter media from your local fish store (offer to buy it if necessary), and get a bottle of Tetra SafeStart. Add both of these to your tank to colonize the tank with nitrifying bacteria to speed up your cycling process.

On a personal note, I'm glad you're getting a liquid test kit. They're a pain in the bum at first, but you'll get the hang of it and enjoy the accuracy and precision of the tests in no time flat. Plus they're more cost-effective than test strips 

Welcome to the hobby!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Personally, I don't like the idea of getting anything from a tank at my lfs. If the tank you get it from has disease (you can't always see signs), then you introduce it to your tank. It's a risk. Better to find a friend that has a helthy tank and get it there. Otherwise, I'd wait it out.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of getting anything from a tank at my lfs. If the tank you get it from has disease (you can't always see signs), then you introduce it to your tank.


Good thought. I hadn't thought of that. Disease can get trapped in filter media? Whoda thunk it?


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## Zwicker (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions. I like the idea of having fish around the apartment, so I'll go back to the store today and in addition to a test kit I'll probably pick up a few more tetras and try again. I've been reading around and popular consensus opinion is to leave the tank alone for at least a week before messing around with water changes, and even then, only do ~10% change. My question is, how high should I let the ammonia levels get before a change is necessary. I've heard it can spike up to ~6ppm, but I assume I want to cut it down before that happens. Also, in the interest of growing bacteria, there should be some levels of ammonia in the tank initially right?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Your cycle is just beginning. It will be denoted by an ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike, then a nitrate spike, after which PWC's will be used to lower the nitrates to an acceptable level.

For ammonia and nitrite, a 3 ppm spike is enough to outright kill fish within a day. A 1 ppm spike has adverse effects and may prove lethal as well.

For nitrate, a spike can get up to 80 ppm without adverse effects.

PWC's are the only way to lower any concentration.

If you leave the tank along for a week and add additional tetras, everything will be dead by the end of the week and your ammonia will be up to 6 ppm or higher. Do daily PWC's to keep the ammonia and later the nitrite concentrations from getting too high or they will kill your fish. And DO NOT GET TETRAS! They are delicate and WILL DIE no matter how hard you work to keep them alive during the establishment of your cycle. Donate your last tetra and either get other tougher fish or do a fishless cycle.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Sounds more like the dechlorinator was added after the water. and the temps were different. That would cause the systems that the poster was seeing.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

In my humble opinion, don't pick up anymore fish. I would even consider sending the one back that you have and establishing the cycle via fish less cycle. It is very easy and will take less time with no fish in the tank. If you leave that one in or add more you want to catch the ammonia LONG before it gets to 6. You don't even want to see it a 1 if possible. Fish dying like that is out of the ordinary, even while cycling. Test your tap water as soon as you get your kit. There might be ammonia or something in the tap. That's not going to help you cycle either.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

Look at the bottle of dechlorinator. Does it say anything about chloramines on it? For some reason some dechlorinators don't treat chloramines. A fish reacting to chloramines in the water sounds a lot like what you describe. Probably your treatment chemicals do chloramines and it is something else, but if your tap water has chloramines and your chemicals only do chlorine, your fish will do the dance of death, even if you treat your tap water.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

chris oe said:


> For some reason some dechlorinators don't treat chloramines.


API Tap Water Conditioner deals with both, FYI


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

To take the stress out of it try a fishless cycle.


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> API Tap Water Conditioner deals with both, FYI


Good. It'd be nice if stores would pay attention to what their local water conditions are and not stock chlorine-only conditioners if their local tap water has chloramines, although I suppose with the internet stuff will go everywhere. I had to watch a friend's goldfish die this way, its kind of burned into my brain. By the time I got there, there was no water change water left, and no time to get a better treatment chemical before the fish turned belly up. 

It'd be nice if water utilities would stop using the stuff. When I asked my brother the chemist about chloramine (just to tell me what he knew about it) he was shocked that they put it in drinking water. He had no idea. Its pretty darn poisonous. When the water utility does a burn you can get a whole crapload all at once and not know it, probably what happened to my friend's goldfish, but a decent chloramine included water conditioner should be able to handle even a burn.


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