# The Necessity of Check Valves? - Comments Appreciated!



## Tomorrowland (Mar 9, 2012)

Hey all! So I work at a local holistic "pet store" that basically sells everything BUT live animals. Our draw is the high quality food, toys and accessories we sell. My LFS is completely uninformed and continually hired incapable staff. The state of their fish, not to mention other animals, is disparaging and quite frankly, they deserve to go out of business, so I refuse to support them. I drive two hours away, or order online from Live Aquaria.

Anyway, I had a customer come in today looking for a ML Bio Wheel for his Oscar tank (he has three Tiger Oscars in a 29 gallon tank -- I had to refrain from slapping him). When he was checking out, he asked if we sold check valves. I have seen these used for pressurized C02 systems and occasionally in marine tanks. We do not carry them, so I asked if he would like us to special order some, then if he had a SW tank or CO2 system. He said he was looking for them for his air pump, as he had been informed that if there was a power outage, his tank could drain entirely through his airstones.

I'd never heard of this and have struggled to find evidence on the net. I get the feeling that he may have been misinformed (similar to it being "okay" to have three large fish with a heavy bioload in a 29 gallon tank) by our local LFS. Does anyone have any experience with this?

I should also add that I have experienced my shake of power outages, and my air pump (on a 75 gallon tank suitable for tanks up to 160 gallons) has never "drained" my tank. I never even noticed any water siphoning during these times whatsoever.


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## ArtyG (Jun 29, 2011)

I have never heard of a pump draining a tank but I have had one back up on me once, I just caught it quickly. Where possible I position my pumps above the tanks and I use the one way valves that come free even with Walmart's cheapest $7 pump. BTW, Wallyworld's pumps are inexpensive and work just as well and as long as any on the market IMO. I am aerating a 60 gal. cube tank with a sub $7 "Aqua Culture" pump and a 100 gallon (former rubber horse trough) with another one. I have been buying aquariums on CraigsList for a couple of years and they seem to always come with at least one Walmart Aqua Culture pump.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

With the air pump above the tank no way to drain the tank.

The air pump should always be higher then the tank and electrical outled should be above as well with a drip loom.


my .02


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## Tomorrowland (Mar 9, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> With the air pump above the tank no way to drain the tank.
> 
> The air pump should always be higher then the tank and electrical outled should be above as well with a drip loom.
> 
> ...


I am assuming this is why. I have a stand for my 75 gallon that supports the tank with cabinets below, but also has shelves above. My outlet and air pump both sit up top. Perhaps this guy has his air pump below? Is it possible to drain a 29 gallon tank with an air pump if the power dies?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Tomorrowland said:


> I am assuming this is why. I have a stand for my 75 gallon that supports the tank with cabinets below, but also has shelves above. My outlet and air pump both sit up top. Perhaps this guy has his air pump below? Is it possible to drain a 29 gallon tank with an air pump if the power dies?


the only safe answer is yes.

But highly unlikely and impossible if the air pump is above the water level of the tank.


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## BrianTX (Aug 19, 2011)

I had a diy co2 reactor that ran out of fuel (sugar), and quit making co2 which is basically the same effect as an air pump turning off. I had the reactor on the floor, and the tank water siphoned into the reactor, and it couldn't hold the pressure and started leaking out through the threads of the cap (it was a 20oz bottle). Had my dog not noticed the strange smell from behind the stand it could have been a big mess! That was my lesson for not using a $2 check valve!


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

I would definetly consider one, I have one on all my pumps, just gives me that extra security knowing iwont come home to empty tanks and quite the mess to clean up and they usually aren't more than 1-3 bucks which is nothing considering what the damage could cost if it did just so happen to go that route


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## Unearthed (May 7, 2012)

If you have the pump below the tank the water will drain out if you turn off the pump (or have the power outage he mentioned). Complete necessity if the pump is lower than the tank.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Just cheap insurance. Basically, any type of tubing you put in your tank should have a check valve. Putting the pump above the tank may work, but it is not a guarantee. If the tubing for some reason or other comes off the air pump (it has happened to me before) it will just fall to the floor and the potential still exist to drain the tank. Plus, I don't like crap outside my tank stand. I prefer nice and neatly underneath and hidden.

One way or the other it is a risk to do without. A check valve is less than $1. It will hurt when you come home to a big mess on your floor, it won't hurt to spend $1.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

When I was a kid, my stepdad had a goldfish tank that a pump burnt out on and it drained about 15-20 gallons of water and ruined the first floors ceiling and almost got the electrical. Anything with air should hae a check valve. They are much cheaper than a freak accident costing thousands in repair.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Just cheap insurance. Basically, any type of tubing you put in your tank should have a check valve. Putting the pump above the tank may work, but it is not a guarantee. If the tubing for some reason or other comes off the air pump (it has happened to me before) it will just fall to the floor and the potential still exist to drain the tank. Plus, I don't like crap outside my tank stand. I prefer nice and neatly underneath and hidden.
> 
> One way or the other it is a risk to do without. A check valve is less than $1. It will hurt when you come home to a big mess on your floor, it won't hurt to spend $1.


I agree, cheap insurance, I use them on all my air pumps. I don't even worry so much about water damage as with the potential dangers of mixing water and electricity. I have my air pumps bellow the tank because there is no where to put them above, also I'd worry about the pump getting knocked into the tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I tend to take a here's my advice fwiw type attitude.

But electrical equipment with 120v AC is nothing to mess with.

So with no apologies here is my feedback.

We are talking about much more then wet carpets and the like.

120v AC is not your 12V DC toy train voltage. Any contact can or will cause death.

Check valves will fail.

Bout a year ago an aquariuminst was electrocuted is south africa.


*So I just can't emphasize enough do not trust check valves.
Get all the electrical outlets and appliances above the tank.!!!!!!

have drip loops above the tanks with long horizontal runs before returning to the floor outlets.

Use GFCI outlets.*



FWIW history wise Thoman Edison was pushing direct current for home electricity and westinghouse Alternating current. Alternating current won out because it could be easily converted with transformers.

But during that time Edison invented the electric Chair for executions to demonstrate the danger of AC.

Not that final sentenct is only worth .02 *old dude


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

And, if you don't have a gfi, all electrical has to be above the tank's highest water level. I did have a pump drain once in a blackout - once in 45 years of fishkeeping, but a memorable mess. However, it was my fault as I had put the pump on the table beside the tank.
I also wished I had a gfi once when a heater cracked. I put my hand in, and got well and truly zapped. It can be good to turn off heaters before putting your hand in. I check carefully now - once zapped, twice shy.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, I guess you can take anything overboard....

Most homes don't have GFCI circuits all over the place unless you are talking bathrooms, kitchen, garage.....nor are they required, IMO. Or, outlets at 6-7ft high either. Optimum? Debatable, probably. You could add them, but it is not as simple as putting in an outlet. Its different wiring.

A check valve has nothing to do with electrical shock...it has to do with draining your tank. And yes, we are talking wet carpets and the like - in this case. Water getting on the carpet doesn't all of a sudden make it an electrical shock hazard just because something is plugged in within the vicinity. If you plan to go and plug/unplug stuff, maybe.

Electrical shock is another subject for another thread. Electrical loops are just that....if water were to travel down the electrical cord, where would it flow?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Actually, electric shocks do go with wet carpets - run a heater dry and see how long it takes to crack and become a hazard. If you are going to run heaters, I would go out of my way to keep the water in the tank. I unplug mine for large water changes.
I have a ground fault outlet at the start of each circuit in my fishroom. 

But I see no use for check valves, if you place equipment properly.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

My point was that the subject of the thread has little to do with electrical shock. Look on the package of a check valve and it doesn't say, "PREVENTS ELECTRICAL SHOCK". Many other things come into play with that and you guys have covered a few, but have nothing to do with a check valve. If it was related then all the more reason to have one for anything. However, wet carpet can be created by a water change spill or many other mishaps.

As far as your example....have a heater crack and leak and the danger is in the tank...not outside of it and STILL not related to a check valve. Purpose? A check valve allows you the ability to place something like an air pump under the tank and out of sight while still protecting against drainage....same for CO2 air lines that have water leak through the diffuser (can you see a 20lb CO2 tank outside *and* above a 5ft high tank? Its an absolute ludicrus thought.).


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm cant believe Summer never heard of this? I think every pump I've ever purchased has this in the instructions about the drip loop and check valve. I use a 18" bubble wand from wally world and I replace it every 6 months or so cause it gets all clogged up with algae, any who they include a check valve in every package.
I have my pump under the stand with a gfci outlet installed in the stand powered by a heavy duty cord that plugs into the wall also a switch next to one of the gfcis I flip a switch to turn off HOB filter and heater for water changes. I havent always used the check valve and just because the pump stops working doesnt mean the tank WILL drain but it is a very good possibility, use the valve just to be safe.


Unless your tanks are in the basement or you did your own electrical work your not gonna have outlets 7 feet up the wall you can purchase gfci outlet power strips .


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## Tomorrowland (Mar 9, 2012)

hanky said:


> I'm cant believe Summer never heard of this? I think every pump I've ever purchased has this in the instructions about the drip loop and check valve. I use a 18" bubble wand from wally world and I replace it every 6 months or so cause it gets all clogged up with algae, any who they include a check valve in every package.
> I have my pump under the stand with a gfci outlet installed in the stand powered by a heavy duty cord that plugs into the wall also a switch next to one of the gfcis I flip a switch to turn off HOB filter and heater for water changes. I havent always used the check valve and just because the pump stops working doesnt mean the tank WILL drain but it is a very good possibility, use the valve just to be safe.
> 
> 
> Unless your tanks are in the basement or you did your own electrical work your not gonna have outlets 7 feet up the wall you can purchase gfci outlet power strips .


Where could I find a GFCI outlet? I have my air pump above the tank and my power strip is positioned on a box with a drip loop between the tank and outlet. But now I'm paranoid.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

1. A check valve doesn't always work perfectly. Mine slowly leaked a puddle on the counter during an outage - so.... beware.
2. a loop of air line going 15-20cm above the level of the water will also provide you with some protection in an outage for your air supply - maybe even better than a check valve.
3. Instead of a drip loop you can get away with a drip screen - basically a latex glove that forces the water to drip earlier, before following the cable to the outlet. Worth considering if you have your electrics below the tank.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Tomorrowland said:


> Where could I find a GFCI outlet? I have my air pump above the tank and my power strip is positioned on a box with a drip loop between the tank and outlet. But now I'm paranoid.


Yeah, no doubt. Nothing to be paranoid about and you can go way overboard when you think of all the things that could "possibly" go wrong. GFCI circuits can fail and you'll never be able to account for everything. 

You can get GFCI outlets at any home furnishing place like Home Depot or Lowe's.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

It was me who brought up the connection between electricity and check valves. My point was simply that if the water backs up through the airline tubing it's going to run through the air pump which is electrical... A check valve won't protect you against all dangers, and like anything can fail, but they are cheap and seem like a sound idea.

Really we are in a daft hobby, who mixes a bunch of electrical equipment with a tank of water anyway!! Obviously there are many potential dangers. I don't think we can protect ourselves against all those dangers, unless we stop using either water or electricity, but it is certainly worth trying to minimize accidents. I think it is important to use common sense and basic precautions. The exact precautions taken are going to vary. Someone with 100 tanks in a fish room might take a different approach than the person with a single display tank in their living room.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Tomorrowland said:


> Where could I find a GFCI outlet? I have my air pump above the tank and my power strip is positioned on a box with a drip loop between the tank and outlet. But now I'm paranoid.


nothing to be paranoid about If your using a power strip it probably has its own little circuit breaker on it. All a GFCI is , is a outlet with a built in circuit breaker designed to cut power quicker if even by fractions of a second.
Snail is right, its a unique hobby that mixes water and electricity, lol, 

All that being said electricity is nothing to be taken lightly just be smart and careful and if a little extra money spent can make us that much safer then IMO its worth it.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

hanky said:


> nothing to be paranoid about If your using a power strip it probably has its own little circuit breaker on it. All a GFCI is , is a outlet with a built in circuit breaker designed to cut power quicker if even by fractions of a second.
> Snail is right, its a unique hobby that mixes water and electricity, lol,
> 
> All that being said electricity is nothing to be taken lightly just be smart and careful and if a little extra money spent can make us that much safer then IMO its worth it.


+1

Sure you should not be so paranoid you can't do anything.

But while in the air force as an electronic technician they did emphasize there is a danger after working around electricity for awhile. The danger is you lose you respect for electricity and get sloppy.

So while you should not be paranoid you should retain your respect for electricity and use applicable safety measures. In this case get the air pump above the tank. along with drip lines and the like. *old dude

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

snail said:


> It was me who brought up the connection between electricity and check valves. My point was simply that if the water backs up through the airline tubing it's going to run through the air pump which is electrical... A check valve won't protect you against all dangers, and like anything can fail, but they are cheap and seem like a sound idea.


..if water backs up in the airline.....if there was no "backup" it would be all over the floor. A backup would mean the check valve was working. 

A drip loop can be put in the airline as well that the water will not travel up. No different than putting higher than the tank.

Since canister filters and CO2 systems can't be excluded.....canisters will not work if they are higher than the tank. CO2 systems is just too impractical. Not everything can be put higher than the tank.

Personally, I don't think electrical shock is a serious threat in this hobby or you'd hear about it from the beginning. Or you would at least read how someone got zapped somehow. Maybe those stories exist and I just haven't seen them? Either way, do what makes you feel comfortable.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> ..if water backs up in the airline.....if there was no "backup" it would be all over the floor. A backup would mean the check valve was working.
> 
> A drip loop can be put in the airline as well that the water will not travel up. No different than putting higher than the tank.


absolutely corect if the leak is on the outside of the tubing. Not correct if the water syphons down the inside of the tube, into the diapharm and contacts the wiring directly to the motor.


> Since canister filters and CO2 systems can't be excluded.....canisters will not work if they are higher than the tank. CO2 systems is just too impractical. Not everything can be put higher than the tank.


 as well as submersable pumps, powerheads and the like. But those are designed for that operation with the electrical stuff isolated completely from the water. And in the case of powerheads totally enclosed in electrical grade epoxy. Plus the cords and connections insulated as well. By contrast air pumps have none of that.


> Personally, I don't think electrical shock is a serious threat in this hobby or you'd hear about it from the beginning. Or you would at least read how someone got zapped somehow. Maybe those stories exist and I just haven't seen them? Either way, do what makes you feel comfortable.


You have heard of a guy in south africa getting zapped. To me air pumps go above the water line. 

here's an interesting experience from a faulty maxijet 1500

Aquarist Found Dead Joe Jaworski’s Weblog

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That story ruins the theory on powerheads, although I didnt read it. I haven't read of someone in SA that I'm aware of.

An airline loop can be put in the line underneath the tank that would be no different than putting the pump above the tank. Water would not be able to travel up the line even if the check valve failed for some reason. Doesn't matter whether the water is outside or inside the tubing.

Like I said before....everyone do what makes them comfortable.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> ..if water backs up in the airline.....if there was no "backup" it would be all over the floor. A backup would mean the check valve was working.


Sorry, bit confused, maybe I didn't explain well, I mean that when there is a power outage sometimes water drains out of the tank through the airline tubing when there is no check valve to stoop it the only way out is through the other end of the tube which is attached to the air pump.



> An airline loop can be put in the line underneath the tank that would be no different than putting the pump above the tank. Water would not be able to travel up the line even if the check valve failed for some reason. Doesn't matter whether the water is outside or inside the tubing.


What is an airline loop? I'm not seeing how that would help if it's under the tank but again maybe we are talking about different issues. 



> .....canisters will not work if they are higher than the tank.


True, and I think my ehiem canister filters, which stay under the tanks are probably safer than any of the other equipment I use.

I've heard of lots of people getting shocks from tank equipment, no actual first hand accounts of someone being killed or seriously injured. Although I'm sure it has happened, it's not like it's something that happens every day, unlike people being killed in car accidents for example, so we need to maintain a sense of balance. 

All the direct accounts I've heard of people getting shocks were things like lights falling into the water, broken heaters or bad wiring on powerheads etc. and could have been prevented by simply turning off the equipment before putting your hand in the tank, something everyone should do and it doesn't cost anything... Do I do it? Well I try to remember... Actually I put all my aquarium stuff on one extension recently so that I can turn it all off at once with one switch which does help me to do it. I'm also strict with myself about throwing out any heaters, powerheads etc that are showing signs of wasting on the rubber seals or wire. And making sure nothing like lights or air pumps can easily be knocked from above into the water.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

snail said:


> What is an airline loop? I'm not seeing how that would help if it's under the tank but again maybe we are talking about different issues.


If water travels down the airline it will be gravity fed, same as if you are doing a water change. If you place a verticle climb in the tube it will not travel up the tube. Go through the loop first before hitting the pump and water will never reach the pump.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> If water travels down the airline it will be gravity fed, same as if you are doing a water change. If you place a verticle climb in the tube it will not travel up the tube. Go through the loop first before hitting the pump and water will never reach the pump.


A loop is only effective for water running on the OUTSIDE of the line,

If the water is running INSIDE the line a loop under the surface of the tank level will do no good.

Water will travel up a loop if it has more pressure pushing down from above.

Back when I used a bucket and hose for water changes i would put the bucket on the floor and I had a long hose that went from tank down to floor then back up to bucket, same as a drip loop, and tank drained just fine.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not true. Go home and run some airline in your tank, start a siphon, and see how easy it is to stop flow in a line that has less than a 1/8" inner diameter size. It may not be as easy as just flopping some extra line down, but I had no problem when testing last night.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

It is true Ben, the top of my 90 gallon tank is 5 feet from the floor, I took standard airline 10 feet long , stuck one end in tank started siphon and held other end at my waist level roughly 3 feet high in a bucket, rest of line laid on floor and water continues to flow, A drip loop does nothing for water in a airline. Its scientific fact that water will seek its own level, which means as long as the tank level is higher than the end of the hose it WILL drain.
I urge others to do their own test and use check valves, dont take electricity lightly.


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## Tomorrowland (Mar 9, 2012)

This is all very fascinating to read and I am very thankful for the response. I think the reason that I have not yet dealt with this issue is that I have always kept my air pumps above my tanks. I have a Top Fin Air-8000 (up to 160gal tanks) on my 75 and it's quiet as long as I have airline hooked up to all four ports, so it doesn't really bother me. I also use an excessively large amount of airline for each airstone or bubble wall that is in the water so it has a long drip loop along the floor. Everything else electric (i.e., my heater and filters) in my tanks' cords run from the tank and along the floor for approximately two feet before raising up about two feet to the box I have my powerstrip on (which, as I just found out, has grounded outlets - as do all the powerstrips on my other tanks, as they're the same model). That's connected to an extension cord (on my 75) which then runs up to the main outlet positioned about five and a half feet up the wall (my 75 gallon is in my heated garage). The other day, after reading some of this discussion, I ended up disconnecting everything but my bubble wall, which came stock with a check valve (so I obviously installed that). After reading about the unreliability of check valves and how much more important it is to have your air pump above the water line in your tank, I reconnected my three 6" airstones, which do not have check valves connected to them. But knowing my air pump is a good foot above my tank has me satisfied now.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I didn't have a problem getting the flow to hault. the idea is to get people to try it if what is being discussed concerns them. Of the many that have read this thread, most will still not be putting anything outside their tank stand or don't have the means to place something above it.

I use check valves on all four of my CO2 systems. There is no putting the bulkiness of these above your tank and they exist with the same potency of electrical shock since the CO2 valve is controlled electrically.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Tomorrowland said:


> This is all very fascinating to read and I am very thankful for the response. I think the reason that I have not yet dealt with this issue is that I have always kept my air pumps above my tanks. I have a Top Fin Air-8000 (up to 160gal tanks) on my 75 and it's quiet as long as I have airline hooked up to all four ports, so it doesn't really bother me. I also use an excessively large amount of airline for each airstone or bubble wall that is in the water so it has a long drip loop along the floor. Everything else electric (i.e., my heater and filters) in my tanks' cords run from the tank and along the floor for approximately two feet before raising up about two feet to the box I have my powerstrip on (which, as I just found out, has grounded outlets - as do all the powerstrips on my other tanks, as they're the same model). That's connected to an extension cord (on my 75) which then runs up to the main outlet positioned about five and a half feet up the wall (my 75 gallon is in my heated garage). The other day, after reading some of this discussion, I ended up disconnecting everything but my bubble wall, which came stock with a check valve (so I obviously installed that). After reading about the unreliability of check valves and how much more important it is to have your air pump above the water line in your tank, I reconnected my three 6" airstones, which do not have check valves connected to them. But knowing my air pump is a good foot above my tank has me satisfied now.


Glad you enjoyed the thread, it got a bit hijacked by us into 'electricity and water safety precautions', lol . I found it very interesting too though.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

yes summer I too am sorry that we hijacked this thread, I may have been one of the main highjackers,lol, hopefully we all learned a bit and made our setups a bit safer and if your mind is at ease then it was all worth it, happy days, it was a interesting thread that I think made alot of people think about things. thanks for starting it


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