# Need Guidance onWater Chemistry Issues



## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Hello, I recently lost a Needle nose Gar and 2 Turquoise Rainbows shortly after introducing then to my tank. I thought this was weird as I have not had issues introducing fish before. I also lost a needle-nose gar the night before after 2 days after purchase. I have never concerned myself with water chemistry before as all of my fish were still alive and well ( I thought anyway) After loosing so many fish, I decided to finally buy the API test kit to find out why I was loosing so many fish. I had live plants in the tank for a short while but have recently decided to remove them as they would not root properly. Below shows my readings and corrective measures I have taken since I bought the test kit. This morning I lost a Pink Kissing Gourami that has been in the tank for months.

Tank Specs:
46 Gallon Bow-front with Fluval 305 canister filter. 

Canister running coarse foam element, 3 carbon and 1 ammochip bag plus 2 bacteria pellet areas and fine water scrubber.

Running 2 bubblers, 1 18" accross back of tank and 1 smaller fine bubbler further forward behind rocks. 

Lighting is 1 36" Marineland LED with Moonlighting. Daylight is 10 hours and 2 hours of moonlight.

There is a heater however I do not remember the wattage, however the packaging said it was appropriate for this size tank. 
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02/03: Temp-76.4; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 8.0 ppm; Nitrite- 5.0 ppm; Nitrate- 5.0 ppm; Corrective Measures- 10 Gallon Water Change

02/04: Temp-76.3; pH- 7.2; Ammonia- 8.0 ppm; Nitrite- 5.0 ppm; Nitrate- 40ppm; Corrective Measures- 15 Gallon Water change, Cleaned Canister filter, Added bacteria Supplement and Am Quel Plus.

This Morning:
02/05: Temp- 75.0; pH-7.6; Ammonia- 4.0 ppm; Nitrite- 5.0ppm; Nitrate- 160ppm; Corrective Measures- None taken yet. Removed Dead Gourami.

02/06: Temp- 77.2; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- .25 ppm; Nitrite- 5.0 ppm; Nitrate- 160 ppm; Corrective Measures- Added 2nd dose of Bacteria Supplement

02/07: Temp- 75.6; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 0 ppm; Nitrite- 0 ppm; Nitrate- 160 ppm; Corrective Measures- Beginning lighter feeding regimine

02/14: Temp- 77.4; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 0.25 ppm; Nitrite- 0 ppm; Nitrate- 40 ppm; Corrective Measures- Water change.
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Current stocking (after last fish death)
1 Electric Blue Cray
2 Pink Kissing Gourami
2 Pearl Gourami
1 Opaline Gourami
2 Sunset Gourami's (1/2" long each)
2 Golden Wonder Killiefish
3 Turquoise Rainbows
2 Australian rainbows
1 Spotted Sailfin Pleco (small)
1 Snakeskin Gourami

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I'm not sure if I am on the right path or not. I know that the Ammonia has gone down in the past 2 days however I"m not sure how to interpret the other data. Any help would be appreciated. I'm probably going to do another 10 Gallon water change and see where that leaves me.


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## ZachZaf (Jan 26, 2012)

How long have you had the tank up and running? The ammonia and nitrites are frighteningly high for an and deadly for established tank.what is your feeding pattern? Are you over feeding? Your fish count is ok for he tank size. But the fact that ammonia ans nitrite are present is a bad sign. By the last check the tank seems like its on the right path... I would check again tonight and do a partial water change if the ammonia and nitrite are still up. I would also back off to one feeding a day until its in check ans also ideally put the fish in another tank until the ammonia is much lower... 

From time to time is see my ammonia hop up to around 0.25 and usually its when I use part of a bottom feeder pellet to supplement the bamboo shrimp I have via the degradation of the pellet and the tetra picking it appart. But I would keep a close eye on your ammonia pecked and try and figure out why its spiking. Also how do you add your new fish? Do you do the sink bag in tank then tear it open later and let the fish loose with the water in the bag ?


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

The tank has been in this location for just over 2 years. It was also running for 2 years prior however, I moved twice and every move I kept 20 gallons of old tank water.

Also, I drip acclimate inside the tank. (hang bag in tank while dripping water in.)

Feeding is once a day as it is. I stopped feeding after I saw the Ammonia levels and have not fed since. Will feed a small amount tonight or tomorrow so the cray doesn't kill any fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

These reading are all after the numerous big water changes you needed to do?


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Day 1 is before any water change. 

Day 2 is after 10 gallon change

Day 3 is after 15 more gallons changed, cleaning the filter, and adding the bacteria and am quel.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Your tank water is completly unacceptable to keep fish in. Your high Nitrates, Ammonia and Nitrites indicates that you have an extreme overfeeding situation and/or have some dead fish and/or snails in your tank. Start a 10-20% water change every day or two and gradually your water situation should gradually improve. Don't change more than 20% of your water at a time or you may loose fish through the shock. You lost a Gar, these are very tough fish so you water must be very bad for them to die.


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

I have to admit, I am most stumped by your nitrate levels. The only time I have ever seen nitrates jump that fast was during tank cycling, but I had a huge load of nitrites to convert. In your case, ammonia and nitrites aren't changing that fast, so where are the nitrates coming from? Double check to make sure you performed the nitrate test correctly. It is especially important to shake the bottle well for this test since the chemicals settle out.

I have heard of people doing well with ammochips, but I think you have to be very careful with them. Since they interfere with the bacterial cycle, it is essential that fresh ammochips always be in the tank.

Keep us posted. Best of luck.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You need about a 50% change everyday until your levels get down much lower. Stop feeding until the levels come down and do a gravel vacuum. Leave the filter alone.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

How do you clean your filter? When you tested your water on 2/3 was that right after losing some fish? and how long were the dead ones in there, dead fish can drive up your ammonia pretty quick, which in turn drives up the nitrites. High nitrates tells me your feeding to much or have some rotting plants/leaves in there.


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

I did an ammonia test tonight (ammonia only) just to see if there was a change and I was down to 1 ppm. I haven't had a chance to perform another water change like I had hoped to. I'll check everything again in the morning to see where I stand.

As far as the tests go, I'm following the directions to the letter. If it says shake 30 seconds or 1 min, I time that out. All tests have been performed in the same way every time.

I also stopped feeding after the first test was performed and the high levels were found.

TO make things more interesting, I found out that my T5 light fixture burned out. So I wen out and bought myself a marineland LED light fixture with moonlighting. I have to say, the light is quite impressive however not quite as bright as I thought it would be. The moonlighting makes a real nice glow just before bed.

I'll keep posting my results as I go. Obviously this is not a good environment for my fish and I'm learning from this experience. While this was not intentional it is what's happening and I am attempting everything I can to repair this damage. Thank you for your help and for bearing with me.


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

hanky said:


> How do you clean your filter? When you tested your water on 2/3 was that right after losing some fish? and how long were the dead ones in there, dead fish can drive up your ammonia pretty quick, which in turn drives up the nitrites. High nitrates tells me your feeding to much or have some rotting plants/leaves in there.


I try to clean the filter every 1-2 months. Closer to every month but no longer than 2. On 2/3 it was right after adding some fish. and 1 day after loosing 2 fish. They were only in the tank for 1 hour total (after acclimation) as they died very quickly. The Gourami was found this morning and immediately removed. At most the Gourami was dead for 5 hours as it was still swimming at 3am when I got home and was dead when I woke up.

I will admit that over feeding is a possibility and I will look more carefully as to how much I feed.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What are your nitrites then, if the ammonia has dropped?

I like the attitude you have about all of it. We have all made mistakes in this and this will be by no means, your last. I do at least one thing a month that could cause issues but I am just thankful my tanks are resilient.

I would feed no more than once a day and even then, no more food than it takes the fish no more than 3-4 minutes to consume. I have found that turning off my filters and any flow during feeding helps, as it makes it easier for the fish to get the food. I would also suggest skipping at least one day of feeding. This gives your bio filter time to catch up so to speak. I tend to feed every other day, but I intentionally overfeed. For me, it is a situation of making sure my less aggressive eaters get fed along with the more aggressive ones.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

test total and free ammonia using the (i think) seachem multitest ammonia test kit. 

The amquell could be locking up all the ammonia but most test kits report total ammonia not just the free ammonia.

add all the anacharis (even if just floating) you can gut your hands on.

Thriving anacharis will rapidily consume the ammonia so it reads 0 while consuming carbon dioxide and returning oxygen.

I'm a big time planted tank guy so your problems after removing the live plants is a really really big flag to me.

But that is just my .02


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## Rod4Rodger (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree with the comments about your ammonia and nitrite being too high. You have had the tank a couple of years so you should have the filter service down but I have been keeping fish since 1975 and every now and then I goof. It really sounds like you may have killed off your bacteria. I highly recommend two things, keep adding bacteria daily and keep up the water changes. Generally you probably do not need to change as much water with the species you have but I have to to regular, 30-50%, water changes with my discus. I bought two large plastic trash cans for preparing water and run a pump, bubbler, and heater in them. I make sure the temperature is pretty darn close to the tank temperature and the PH is the same before I change anything. For now the best way to knock the levels down is to change the water but I strongly recommend you prepare the water first. If you have to change daily for a week or so a single night of aging your water will be better than nothing but I rotate mine and age it a couple of days as a minimum unless I have a problem. I changed 200 gallons this weekend, 100 gallons Friday and 100 gallons Sunday because I let it slide with work and my nitrates were high, not a problem with most fish but my discus were not happy, colors and fins were looking washed out but are already back to normal.


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Ok I just tested again this morning and here were my results:

Temp- 77.2; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- .25 ppm; Nitrite- 5.0 ppm; Nitrate- 160 ppm

This is without any water changes since 2/4. 

I'll perform another water change today and see if that helps.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

looking much better, Dont be sorry, EVERYONE of has issues now again, you recognized your problems and are doing something about it, you came to the right place and got some good advice and now things are headed in the right direction.

I only asked how you clean your filter because I myself was doing it wrong most of my fish keeping life. When I cleaned it I used to run under cold water not thinking that I was killing all my bacteria, (such a Duh). Like I said we all screw up now and again

IMO I think your ammonia spike might be do to dead fish they start rotting as soon as they die and even only 5 hours in there can produce alot of ammonia.


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Alright! I just finished another round of testing and here are the results:

02/07: Temp- 75.6; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 0 ppm; Nitrite- 0 ppm; Nitrate- 160 ppm; Corrective Measures- Beginning lighter feeding regimine


I think i'm almost there! I'm not sure the Nitrates are where they should be yet but the ammonia and nitrites are better. The tank is looking much clearer and all of the fish are moving around quite happily. I'll continue weekly testing from now on to keep my levels in check. 

Thank you to everyone for your help and support.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

looks good, you just want them nitrates down to like 40 or so, I actually skip a day or two a week of feeding, they wont starve. or yea feed real light.


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

HOw do I remove the Nitrates? Will water changes take care of it or something else?


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## drzoom (Dec 10, 2011)

Yes, I'd do two or three 50% water changes every 2 or 3 days until the readings are below 20ppm. Every 50% change will cut the nitrates in half (assuming your water supply doesn't have any). Then, follow the feeding advice above and do a 30-50% change weekly with a good dechlorinator.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

fishnjeeps said:


> HOw do I remove the Nitrates? Will water changes take care of it or something else?


assuming you have nitrate free water, water changes alone will not remove all the nitrates. In order for that to happen you must consume the nitrates being generated. IME the best way is with fast growing plants.

But even with plants it is possible during cycles for nitrates to spike high because the plants actually prefer to consume any ammonia the bacteria don't. But that is actually a good thing as having nitrates is better then ammonia.

Once the bacteria consume the ammonia then nitrates drop down to unmeasureable levels.


my .02


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Unfortunately my last attempt with live plants did not go well. None of them rooted properly. There's a possibility that some of the ammonia came from the plants dieing off. This tank is just not in a position to have live plants. My cray ate many of them and uprooted even more. Later I would like to attempt a planted tank, just not this one. 

Otherwise I will make a few more water changes and see if the levels go down more. Hopefully the bacteria will remove some as well.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

One thing you could try is a partition so the plants are in a small area and the cray and other fish are on the other side.
my .02


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## fishnjeeps (Nov 11, 2011)

Here's today's water parameters. I think I'm out of the woods now. I'm gonna do a water change later tonight after they have had a chance to eat. So here it is:

02/14: Temp- 77.4; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 0.25 ppm; Nitrite- 0 ppm; Nitrate- 40 ppm; Corrective Measures- Water change.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

fishnjeeps said:


> Here's today's water parameters. I think I'm out of the woods now. I'm gonna do a water change later tonight after they have had a chance to eat. So here it is:
> 
> 02/14: Temp- 77.4; pH- 7.0; Ammonia- 0.25 ppm; Nitrite- 0 ppm; Nitrate- 40 ppm; Corrective Measures- Water change.


Amazing what water changes can do if other things in your tank aren't helping you a more natural way.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> *assuming you have nitrate free water, water changes alone will not remove all the nitrates.* In order for that to happen you must consume the nitrates being generated. IME the best way is with fast growing plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Say what?? WHat kind of BS is this?? Do 50% water changes 3 days in a row and tell me your Nitrates didn't go down!! Are you kidding me man!!!
*old dude*whip*

Your .02 isnt' going very far these days Beasl......


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> One thing you could try is a partition so the plants are in a small area and the cray and other fish are on the other side.
> my .02


Here we go again with the partition crap. Dude, your killing me with this garbage. I saw you tell a guy that, and he had a 10g tank!!!! REALLY????


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> Say what?? WHat kind of BS is this?? Do 50% water changes 3 days in a row and tell me your Nitrates didn't go down!! Are you kidding me man!!!
> *old dude*whip*
> 
> Your .02 isnt' going very far these days Beasl......


Take a chill pill.

what I actually stated was:


beaslbob said:


> Originally Posted by beaslbob
> assuming you have nitrate free water, water changes alone will not remove all the nitrates. In order for that to happen you must consume the nitrates being generated. IME the best way is with fast growing plants


Sure nitrates will be lower assuming a lower amount of nitrates in the replacement water.

but that is not what I stated.

What happens is:
assuming
1) some constant daily increase in nitrates is occuring. (Nincrease)
2) replacement water has some levle of nitrates (Nreplacement)
3) you change a certain fraction of water (fractionofwater change)
4) every certain amount of days. (days)
5) enough water changes have occurred so that the nitrates before water changes (Nbefore) is constant.

What is the nitrates before each water change?

Ans:

Nbefore=Nreplacement+(Nincrease)*(days)/((fractionofwater change)

If if you are increasing nitrates at 1 ppm/day, change 1/10 of the water every 7 days with water that containes 30ppm you get:

Nbefore=30ppm+(1ppm)*(7days)/(1/10)=30ppm +70ppm=100ppm

With 0 nitrates in replacement water you get 70ppm.

If the fraction of water changes is tied to the frequency water change where you do 10% every 10 days, 20% every 20 days etc etc, and you have 0 nitrates in the replacement water you get 100ppm nitrates before each water change in any of the schudles.

If you have a constant water change equal to 1%/day with 0 nitrate water you have a constant 100ppm nitrates.

So sure you can lower nitrates You just can't remove all of them through water changes alone.

But if you have nitrate consumers like the various algaes you can maintain unmeasureable nitrates regardless of what water changes are being done and the nitrates in the replacement water.

And this also applies to any linear concentration of anything. like phosphates, calcium, carbonate, magnesium, iron, and so on.

my .02






nitrates before


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Hmmmm....algaes, huh? I don't want those in my planted tanks and since we are in the freshwater section, I would rather have plants do anything like that.

Aside from that, you DON'T want 0 nitrates in any planted tank. In a non-planted it won't matter much, but if the plants run out of nitrates then they have a deficiency and don't grow as well. I know you will say that enough nitrates is being generated in the tank, but that is not true if the net of nitrates at the end of the day is 0. The very few low light species of plants that you keep may grow okay in it, but from what I have seen of them they don't look so healthy. Grow some plants that people will actually like to look at that have just a tad more requirements and they will look horrible. 

I have yet to see one of your tanks that show "healthy" plants. Then again, your definition of healthy/not healthy, thriving or not, I am sure is much different.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Take a chill pill.


Chill pill aye. *r2
Welp if you actually knew what you were talking about before you opened your mouth, we would not have to jump in here. 
You did your normal copy and paste to fix your mess again. You were caught dishing out BS again, and got it big time. Your starting to take a hit if you ask me, as to wether your name means BS or is actually worth anthing anymore.......


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

This has gotten totally out of hand, this may have scared any new user away from the forum. 

This thread is now locked


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