# Something is wiping out my fish!



## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Hello. I have recently had a bad situation in my 35 gallon hex tank. I have had the tank up and running for about 6 months and finished stocking 2 weeks ago. I have now learned the value of a quarantine tank the hard way, and certainly won't be adding fish again without one. I keep my tank at 78-79 degrees, and under normal conditions had been testing pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate weekly. I do a 50% water change every Sunday. My pH is 7.6, ammonia and nitrite are zero and the nitrate has never been over 10ppm. About 10 days after adding the last fish, I started noticing that the fish were hanging out at the bottom and had started ghasping. They were lethargic and not eating well. I did a 50% water change and tested my water. My water conditions were normal. The next day one of my rams Was dead, and my other 2 rams and all of my tetras were obviously sick. I did another water change and went to talk to my LFS. They thought my pH was too high. I didn't think that was the problem since everybody in there had been fine for months. At this point I am down 7 fish in the last 5 days. I think I have narrowed it down to gill flukes and started treatment yesterday with API General Cure. I am away today on business, but my GF said we lost another tetra overnight. I will do a 25% water change tomorrow and dose again per the instructions. Does it seem that I am on the right track?


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## Leclair10 (Jun 22, 2009)

How did you come to the conclusion of Gill Flukes?


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

It matches the most symptoms, there are no signs of ick, fin rot or any other physical signs. They don't have clamped fins, they are not flashing. They just hang out in one spot, low in the tank ghasping. When they do swim it is darting irraticly. They are not eating either. The meds claim to treat several parasitic infections, so I started treatment figuring it was better than just watching them all die. It started since the last fish were introduced, and since all my water levels have been consistently good, I figured it has to be something another fish brought into the tank.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Need more symptoms.Gasping and lethergic could be almost anything?Do you see any obvious sores or redness (around gills for gill flukes).What type of filter are you using and what does the surface of your water look like?
Who all is in the tank(specific list of fish)?
What are you feeding them.
You seem to be alright on your waterchanges so something else is cooking?
Do you have live plants?
Did you buy the tank and equipment used?
silly questions some may sound ,but trying to narrow it down ASAP.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I bought it all new. It has been set up, and fully cycled for 6 months. I have an Aqueon hang on the back filter, number 40 or 45 and use their replacement filters with carbon (I cut open the filter and got all the carbon out before I medicated the tank) I have a 12" air stone that is powered by a good size air pump (traveling home right now so I don't have it in front of me)
Top of the water is clear and well aerated.
I had a Pictus Cat (dead) and yes, I know he needed a bigger tank now and won't be getting another for this tank.
An albino pleco
A stick cat
5 black phantom tetras (3 now)
2 peppermint tetras
3 cherry barbs
3 golden rams (all dead)
A loach... Brain fart on the species but he is striped

I feed tetra flakes, frozen brine shrimp and pleco pellets (alternating flakes and shrimp 2 days flakes to 1 day shrimp) once a day feedings and not more than they can eat in 2-3 min. Algea pellets are every 3rd day.
My plants are fake but I have driftwood.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

At the rate of deaths it sounds more like columnaris. I would have never thought gill flukes. If so, they are easy to cure I think. I hope that is it.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I'm pretty much just grabbing at straws at this point. I don't have enough experience to know what to do. 

Also, I have well water and have tested my tap water as well. pH is 7.6, no nitrite, nitrate or ammonia. I just got home (after a 12 hour work day in NYC and a 4.5 hour drive home), and the fish show no sign of improvement since the first dose of the API general cure.


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## vreugy (May 1, 2013)

Try to contact Inkmaker. He is the best with parasitic problems. Maybe he will see your post.

have a blessed day


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

This is not a parasite problem, don't think.

You said the fish have no outward sign of anything wrong and look like they are breathing heavily? Do they just die soon after?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't think it is a parasite either or you'd see it?So no clear to see wounds or sores,just labored breathing and settling?Sounds like how my swordtails were dieing.I believe my swords had/have 1 of the 4 forms of columnaris.I had no clear to see symptoms either,just could see who was next about 24 hours before hand and then death.They would settle to bottom,sometimes get hunched back.Mine were older,and died on a 1-2 a week for a month before I treated.I think I cured it with potassium permagante.Or just the old /weak ones died and the rest are strong enough to fight it off.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

They show no physical signs at all. Once they start really ghasping, they only tend to make it a day or two.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Should I bother with the second dose of parasite meds today then? Seems like it might be unnecessary stress to the already sick fish if it is not a parasitic infection.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I wouldn't think the parasite meds are doing anything?Unless you can see something in the gills,which is very diffacult,I would move towards treating columnaris.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would hate to say not to, but it just doesn't sound right to me. Gill flukes are not that uncommon I suppose, but in your descriptions it doesn't sound very likely. I think fish can live for a good period with flukes. Have you noticed any type of growth and anything that may look like a worm coming out of the gill area?

Read up on Columnaris. My recent outbreak that I had, of which I inadvertently spread to another tank wiped out fish in a day. Read about the flexobacter form of it. Or whatever they may be calling it now.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I have sent a pm to inkmaker. I have started reading up on columnaris... Nasty stuff! It sounds like it can easily get to the point of euthanizing the whole tank and starting over again. I sure hope it doesn't come to that! I guess I am getting the fishkeepers version of the school of hard knocks! Fits in with the rest of my lessons in life... Murphy's law can be a bear when you are a Murphy!


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

So, after some really hard looking, I think I can see some red in the gills of the peppermint tetras. I haven't been able to see anything on the others, but I wasn't able to get as good of a look at anybody else. The loach just stays under the driftwood. I can only find him with a flashlight. Then he freaks out at the light. Not typical behavior for him.


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## Leclair10 (Jun 22, 2009)

How tall is this Hex tank? Are you sure you have enough water movement in it to provide good oxygen? This is why I hate Hex tanks. To each their own but a nice rectangle tank IMO is 10X better. Usually though the fish would be gasping at the top. The only thing I can think of that the fish are weakened and trying to conserve energy to fight whatever it is they have if they indeed are sick. I still think if this was Flukes the fish would be "flashing" off things.

I'm by no means an expert and I only deal with Discus,Angels and Rams so I could be out in left field on this one.............


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

The tank is 24" tall. There is a heavy stream of bubbles 12" wide from the air stone and the filter moves enough water to be able to tell that there is a current all the way to the bottom from the filter by watching it push the fish around. I tried to buy oversized filter, heater and air pump to make up for the tall tank.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Not that any description is what you will always see,but for flukes the fish usaully gasp at the surface.If your surface is to diffacult for them then maybe that is why they are low in tank.Columnaris can also produce red gills and the settling is what I saw a day or so before fish died.
Can you post pictures of fish?


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I can see if I can figure out how to.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Loaiding pictures;
Posting Pictures Tutorial - AquariumForum.com
One more thing that points to columnaris for me is water quality.If your tank is of good waterquality many issues are easily avoided.Not true with columnaris which thrives in clean o2 rich water without issue.
Both jr and myself(among the many) are "religous" waterchangers,so most issues stay far away.This was the largest obstacle in trying to figure out what was going on for me.50%+ waterchanges on every tank every week and only one tank effected? Just couldn't see anything that was clear to me.I may never know if my swords hadd/have columnaris ,but it does seem one of the suggested treatments worked.I'll pull up the best info on columnaris and add it to this post in 1 minute.
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention
If you think it is columnaris lower your temp to low 70's as this disease also loves higher temps(it really zigs when other disease zag).


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I just had the camera out and was taking some pictures. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that they actually do seem a little bit more lively. I fed a little bit of flake food and the cherry barbs ate like pigs, and all but one of the tetras seem to be more interested in food. They still aren't swimming up and grabbing it at the surface like usual, but they came up to mid tank and had a few bites.


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## Protues55 (Dec 26, 2013)

I don;t have the expertise of many here, but adding carbon to your filter may help (if no meds are being used); my tank just went through something very similar and as soon as I put a carbon pad in my eheim the replacement stock seems--so far--much better. There were numerous posts in a neighboring column from people in New York State having all sorts of chemical issues, but I believe you said you are on a well. I would try carbon once you are through dosoing with whatever meds you are using.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

The filters I use are carbon. I just cut open the one that is in it now to get the carbon out to medicate without worrying about putting the tank into a cycle from just pulling the filter out to get rid of the carbon. When I am done medicating I will put a new filter in with the old one for a few days to populate it before I ditch the old one. The new ones have carbon.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Carbon will only remove impurities/contaminets in/from source water.If you do regular waterchanges of a good enough amount carbon has no benefit and actually may cause some issues like HLLE(hole in the head lateral line errosion/ disease).I wouldn't worry about getting carbon back in tank.It was recommended to Dave as we are thinking his source water may be an issue.
It will take more than few days to transfer beneficial bacteria,looking at 1-2 weeks to be safe.With the existing pad being present during what ever med it should be all good to leave in after treatments.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Well, the loach is having his last moments. The only good thing is I can see physical symptoms on him. He has red spots on his gills and a large red blotch on his belly. It looks similar to the pics on the columnaris article that coralbandit posted. Poor little guy. I hate seeing them like that. I guess now I know I need to move forward with treating for columnaris. Hopefully I will hear back from inkmaker and come up with a plan.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have potassium permanganate if you are interseted in that method of treatment.You need to know about it to use it.so read up if you are intersted.Here's one link
Potassium permanganate | The Skeptical Aquarist.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Could be wrong, but believe Inkmaker deals mostly with internal parasites. If you are able to act now, I would. Waiting just makes it worse in most cases.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Here is the loach that just died. He has the first visible symptoms, but he wouldn't come out from under the driftwood until his last few minutes. You can see the obvious red spot on the belly, and there were some red spots on and around his gills.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> I have potassium permanganate if you are interseted in that method of treatment.You need to know about it to use it.so read up if you are intersted.Here's one link
> Potassium permanganate | The Skeptical Aquarist.


I read through the info you posted about the potassium permanganate. that's some serious stuff. I'll PM you for some more details.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Well, I should have the PP to treat for columnaris today. I lost another tetra overnight, and I am now able to see some red in the gills of a few of my fish. I'll be heading to the LFS and pharmacy at lunch time to try and get some 9% hydrogen peroxide, and hopefully a nice graduated cylender and syringe. Looks like some good rubber gloves are in order, and I'll be using a face shield while messing with this stuff. I've been reading about it for a couple days now, and it looks like handling it safely is pretty important. If this stuff oxydizes organic matter, should I pull my driftwood out of the tank for treatment? It seems that I might have to increase my dose if there is some big chunks of wood in there.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would pull the wood if possible,and vaccum the gravel.If there is too much organic matter the PP will just change color(go yellow or brown) to indicate it is spent.This happened to me on first tank that I left sponge filters in ,even with a 70% waterchange before hand.Simply add another 1/2 dose if it changes color.
Good luck and yea trcking said it was in NH yesterday so you have it today.
You will probly only be able to find 3% hydrogen peroxide,but it works.
Here's a good link on using HP in aquairiums;
Hydrogen peroxide - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

If I pull the driftwood, and put it back after I treat, will I have to worry about re-contaminating my tank? Should I boil it again? I haven't found mention of this in any of my reading. How about my net? Is that contaminated from using it to pull the dead out? I found a lot about dosages and the procedure for treatment, but I didn't find any details about what else may be contaminated.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Tough call on the wood?It wouldn't hurt to boil it.For nets I just dip them in 50/50 bleach(plain bleach no dies or perfume) and then soak them in tap.I never cleaned nets before my outbreak ,but now I keep a covered bucket of bleach and water just for dipping them.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

I'll boil the driftwood. Better safe than sorry. I'm a bit concerned about my filter too. If I leave it in, it sounds like I might nuke my bacteria, and if I leave it out, It might contaminate the tank again if I re-use it. Is it likely that this treatment will force the tank into a cycle?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would leave filter in.Even if much of it is effected it should regenerate quicker than first time.Just monitor water for ammonia and nitrIte.A large majority if meds mess with bacteria as that is what they are supposed to do.Many claim not to,but...If needed it is just changing water to lower nutrient levels which is" good safe medicine"that IMO should be part of all medical treatments.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Sorry for all the newb questions... I just want to do things correctly. I tell all my guys at work to ask questions if they have them, and try to practice what I preach! Thank you for all your help Tom, I'd be lost without your assistance on this!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

all questions are good especially if you don't know the answer.I'm in construction myself and there is no other acceptable way to do things but correctly.If you don't know you got to ask.Quite often doing the wrong thing in either application "cost" much more than just doing it right the first time.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

OK, so I went to the LFS after work to get some supplies and the guy that is their aquarium guru was in there, so I picked his brain a bit. I showed him some pics of the dead loach and told him that I thought it was columnaris and I was prepping to treat with PP. His eyes got real big and he started talking real fast! He told me that he has used PP several times, and was a bit nervous that I am headed down that path without trying meds one more time. He talked me into a last ditch effort with Tetra brand fungus guard and parasite guard. He even offered to help with the PP if it came down to it. I have received the PP, and although I am never really afraid to try anything, I am going to hold off for a week while I try these meds. I am hoping I made the right choice by trying to exhaust all the methods that will be the least stressful to the fish before I go nuclear with the PP. This will also give me some time to track down some actual 9% hydrogen peroxide and order in some graduated cylinders and 1000 ml beakers to do the trial with the PP before dosing the tank. I learned a long time ago that for precise things, you are only as good as your measuring device.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

It's been 4 days since I have lost a fish. They seem to be improving. The black phantom tetras don't have their appetite back yet, even for brine shrimp, but everyone else is eating well again.


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

Before, I would make a microscope-cal preparation to prove the worm parasites.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Arthur7 said:


> Before, I would make a microscope-cal preparation to prove the worm parasites.


How do you do that?


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

It only takes a student microscope. Magnification 50 times -100 is about enough.
In a just a dead fish gill cover is separated top and bottom with small pointed scissors. You can see the 4 gill arch. Which most looks changed, is separated. Onto a slide glass (ground without cavity) added. Then a cover glass. Slightly compressed so that a thin layer is formed, which can be illuminated. On the microscope put under the springs. Set the upper mirror to bright enough. Through the tube rotate to focus.
Images for comparison.





This work is worth before the whole fish population is destroyed. Maybe it was nothing!


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Arthur7 said:


> It only takes a studentdecorations, . Magnification 50 times -100 is about enough.
> In a just a dead fish gill cover is separated top and bottom with small pointed scissors. You can see the 4 gill arch. Which most looks changed, is separated. Onto a slide glass (ground without cavity) added. Then a cover glass. Slightly compressed so that a thin layer is formed, which can be illuminated. On the microscope put under the springs. Set the upper mirror to bright enough. Through the tube rotate to focus.
> Images for comparison.
> 
> ...


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, that will be good. But no time to lose. The worms leave the fish soon if he's dead.
I wish you much that it gets better.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

If I put the dead fish in the freezer would that buy me some time?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sorry to hear things aren't getting better.I didn't want to say that the"guru" at your LFS was 1/2 baked at best,but anyone who knows what columnaris is knows it is not fungal or parasite(so first round of meds were useless).It is bacterial.PP won't nuke your tank if you use it properly as I believe discus keepers are :serious,informed, and really care for their fish.
The meds you are using now may work,but you need to consider how long this infection has now able to run untreated(IT TAKES AS LONG TO GET OUT OF THE WOODS AS INTO THEM).Often by the time the keeper recognises an issue and diagnoses it the fish are weakened and stressed to the point that some will not survive a potent medical treatment.I question any(bacterial in particular)medication that won't effect the bacteria in your filter(sounds weak or a lie).You'll need to use the meds you are on this round for 7-10 days(stress on fish).The PP is a 4 hour treatment(that worked for me).The link said you could dip the fish for 30 minutes and still use the meds you are on now also(actually said this method was highly recommended).
I'm sure some will recognise that I don't give the LFS employee a whole lot of credit in the knowledge department.I'm not trying to knock on him as the improper meds are a common thing,but now (this is the real point) they have sold you 4 other meds,mainly in my opinion because they don't carry PP.Possibly the "wild look" upon the mention of pp is the wonder of where you got it?I got mine from an Aubochon hardware store,as no LFS in my area carries it either.Sometimes they(the LFS) can help,sometimes they can't,but when they don't have what you want or already have they basically always seem to throw suspicion and question on it.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I had columnaris a few months ago. Here was my thread about it.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/possible-columnaris-timeline-diagnosis-possible-treatment-67265.html
Wouldn't surprise me if that's what your tank has. Needs a med that kills gram negative bacteria. If you're hesitant to use the PP, you need to hit it with Furan-2 and Kanamycin together.

Nasty, nasty, horrible awful.
I use a QT tank now.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I didn't read through your whole thread but if this is columnaris, hospital tank treatments don't work. You have to treat the tank, not the fish.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> I didn't read through your whole thread but if this is columnaris, hospital tank treatments don't work. You have to treat the tank, not the fish.


I got fed up and put the fish in a hospital tank and have drained the tank, removed everything, thrown out the substrate and cleaned everything with bleach. I boiled the driftwood. I'm just going to start over, and will do a planted tank this time. I wanted to redo the tank with plants anyway, so I have some substrate and new lights on the way.


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Threnjen said:


> I had columnaris a few months ago. Here was my thread about it.
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/possible-columnaris-timeline-diagnosis-possible-treatment-67265.html
> Wouldn't surprise me if that's what your tank has. Needs a med that kills gram negative bacteria. If you're hesitant to use the PP, you need to hit it with Furan-2 and Kanamycin together.
> 
> ...


I am treating with Furan 2 and Kanamycin now in the quarantine tank. I will never put another fish in the tank without quarantine again! Lesson learned!


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## nh murph (Mar 21, 2014)

Well, everybody in the hospital tank seems to have rounded the corner, and appear to be on the mend. They are all eating and symptoms have gone away. I'll keep them in the hospital tank to monitor them for the next week or so, which will give me time to get their tank set back up and planted. Everything from the old tank has been cleaned thouroughly with bleach and flushed with fresh water, so it should be good to go. I boiled all the driftwood and will reuse it. The meds stained the driftwood with a bit of a green tint, but I'm kind of digging the look. Substrate went in the dumpster and will be replaced with Seachem Flourite when it shows up on Monday. I've just gotta do a little picking through the woods to get a few nice rocks to compliment the planted landscape. 

Would it be wise to dump and clean the hospital tank or to leave it running and just drop some fish food in to make ammonia to feed the BB? I will probably be getting some fish to re stock the main tank in a couple of weeks, and will want to QT them for a month before they go in the main tank


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