# Ammonia prob?



## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay hello all.
So I came home from work tonight and noticed that maybe my Oscars have the start of Ick, just 4 or 5 random dots on the fins. So I did a water test and my opinion is that everything looks but the Ammonia i think its high what do you think? I have a bottle off AMMO LOCK on hand. should i water change and then add it. or just add it now?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

You have no nitrates. How old is this tank? Looking at those results, appears to be a new, uncycled tank.

You need to do big water changes until you get that ammonia eliminated. Every moment you leave that ammonia in there, the more damage is done to your fish.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Tank does appear uncycled(no nitrates).A water change of 33-50% (vacumming substrate well, and using an ichmed is recommended(the sooner you treat the easier you will rid the ich).Follow direction on meds(first one is vacumm) and try to raise temp to 84-86 as this will shorten the lifespan of ich.
Ich | The Skeptical Aquarist


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay I'm going to do a big water change. Should I add water conditioner and maybe stress zime and something for ick all at once?


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## Wakenbake (Mar 25, 2013)

I reccomend getting some ATM Colony at your LFS. Its nitrifying bacteria and it cycled my tank in a few days. It will take care of the ammonia problem. My water parameters are excellent now! Here is a good link to help you understand more, question 3 in particular Q And A With ATM About Colony | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle | 132624


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I use Tetra Safestart which is a similar product but you can't use it if Ammonia or Nitrites are at 1ppm or higher because that amount of toxicity will kill the new bacteria.

Is the product you recommend safe to add with his Ammonia at the current level?

If the OP gets the Ammonia down first by doing a water change or two, then any if the GOOD bacteria products should help drastically.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

What kind of Nitrates should I be looking for?


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Any right now... to show you that you have both types of bacteria in sufficient quantities to convert ammonia to nitrites and the nitrites to nitrates.

Once you start seeing Nitrates, you want to keep them at a minimum, no more than 40 ppm. You keep them in check thru frequent water changes.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Hey Burns412 ,how old is the tank?How long has it been set up,what is in it,and what have your maintenance habbits been?
If this tank is newly set up,then that will help explain your test,BUT real info is needed before the right suggestion out of the many that apply can be chosen!


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> Hey Burns412 ,how old is the tank?How long has it been set up,what is in it,and what have your maintenance habbits been?
> If this tank is newly set up,then that will help explain your test,BUT real info is needed before the right suggestion out of the many that apply can be chosen!


Hey there, well I have 3 small Oscars and 6 cichlids. The tank is only about a month old and I have been doing about 25% water changes and adding stress zime after but I have not been using water conditioner. Its a 75gal and I'm running 2 canister filters adding up to around 825gph. The second filter was added about 3 days ago and when I added that one I took out the original filter and just sprayed out the canister not the media.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So hopefully you ar using the old (1 month) media?The bacteria you so desire attach to surfaces(like the walls of your canister) and the media.Don't mess with filter unless you are just cleaning the sponge(which for now is best done by ringing out in a bucket of tank water from when you are doing waterchanges.
Since your tank is new you will probably still have high ammonia and eventually a serious nitrIte spike(both of which can be lethal to your fish).
By not using water conditioner Ihope you mean one of the "useless" ones as opposed to dechlorintor?
Dechlorinator is a MUST as chlorine will easily kill the good bacteria you want.Most here use PRIME as it is very effective,efficient and economical.It also will help convert ammonia for you and your fish ,although your test will still show it.
Being only 1 month old and possibly messing with filter(in a unhelpful way) you may still have to go through the whole cycle process,so keep on top of testing,and if CAM thinks the TSS is good to use(when you get ammonia and nitrIte low enough ) I would go for it.It certainly can't hurt anything but your wallet.Until then waterchanges are you and your fishes freind.
The % of water changed is the % of the nutrient reduction IE; 50% change = 50% reduction in ammonia and nitrItes.


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## Wakenbake (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes I have never had high ammonia but I had high nitrites over 1ppm and it took care of it by the next day, I used it along with a 25-30% water change. I don't see why you wouldn't get the same results. It doesn't state that it can't be used with high levels of either.


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## Wakenbake (Mar 25, 2013)

It says it neutralizes ammonia and nitrite spikes naturally.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay, well i just got done with about a 50% water change and added API Tap Water Conditioner and also Stress Zime+


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## Wakenbake (Mar 25, 2013)

Hopefully that will get it down. Good luck!


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Oh and BTW sorry for all the questions and being such a newb haha i guess ill need all the help i can get on a fishy filled cycle.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Update. Well so far the ammonia is back down. Just need some nitrates to build up I guess.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If your ammonia is under 1ppm then adding TSS(tetra safe start)would probably help.Also using prime as your dechlorinator will help with the ammonia.Read up on TSS or ask CAM or Zwanged as they both had good experiences with this product.
Soon enough you'll be past the cycling and be able to enjoy your tank and help others who will be in the same boat.
Good work so far!


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> If your ammonia is under 1ppm then adding TSS(tetra safe start)would probably help.Also using prime as your dechlorinator will help with the ammonia.Read up on TSS or ask CAM or Zwanged as they both had good experiences with this product.
> Soon enough you'll be past the cycling and be able to enjoy your tank and help others who will be in the same boat.
> Good work so far!



Thank you. I'm going to check into TSS. I have been using APT Tap water conditioner for a dechlorinator, and Stress Zyme+ for the bacteria.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The only reason I keep mentioning TSS is the whole idea of bottled bacteria actually being alive is veiwed as "snake oil" by many.Hetorotrophic bacteria really can't live in an unrefrigerated bottle and athough there are many versions of bottled bacteria the only two that really have had favorable reveiws are TSS and Dr Tims one and only.
Often the bacteria in many of these other mixtures are not true heterotrophic bacteria but rather the bacteria that develope before heteros(sorta like a sepping stone.)
Your dechlorinator is worth using till you run out ,but when you do switching to prime is a no brainer.Read how much each treats by volume and the added expense of prime really is non existent,the same size bottle for a couple more bucks could actually treat twice as much water as some other products.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

I understand. And I have a LFS so close ima walk to it in about 10 min haha.
okay so when i get the TSS shall i do just a small water change before adding or maybe a large water change? or not a water change at all with the TSS?
And also, should i still use the Water Conditioner for the chlorine if a water change is needed? BTW i ran a test on the water about 12 hours ago and the Ammonia was low but no Nitrite and no Nitrate. and about 12 hours before that i did a 50% change and added the conditioner and the Stress Zyme. 
sorry about all the questions, I just want to make sure i do this right, i dont wanna loose any fish and everyone is still looking good.




coralbandit said:


> The only reason I keep mentioning TSS is the whole idea of bottled bacteria actually being alive is veiwed as "snake oil" by many.Hetorotrophic bacteria really can't live in an unrefrigerated bottle and athough there are many versions of bottled bacteria the only two that really have had favorable reveiws are TSS and Dr Tims one and only.
> Often the bacteria in many of these other mixtures are not true heterotrophic bacteria but rather the bacteria that develope before heteros(sorta like a sepping stone.)
> Your dechlorinator is worth using till you run out ,but when you do switching to prime is a no brainer.Read how much each treats by volume and the added expense of prime really is non existent,the same size bottle for a couple more bucks could actually treat twice as much water as some other products.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Always ,always use dechlorinator when doing water changes.As for the best procedure for the TSS,either CAM will chime in(he knows much more about product first hand) or you should PM him.He's on now so either or for that.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Anytime you do a water change, you have to use a conditioner. And you cannot use TSS within 24 hours of a water change because the conditioner will affect the bacteria in the TSS.

If I were you, I would add TSS as soon as 24 hours passes since your last water change and Ammonia and Nitrites are below 1 ppm.

I would also test water at least twice a day because you have 0 Nitrates.... means your Ammonia and/or Nitrites are going to see frequent and possibly large spikes.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you,
I'm on my way back home with the TSS. I'll do a water test soon as I get back. 







CAM said:


> Anytime you do a water change, you have to use a conditioner. And you cannot use TSS within 24 hours of a water change because the conditioner will affect the bacteria in the TSS.
> 
> If I were you, I would add TSS as soon as 24 hours passes since your last water change and Ammonia and Nitrites are below 1 ppm.
> 
> I would also test water at least twice a day because you have 0 Nitrates.... means your Ammonia and/or Nitrites are going to see frequent and possibly large spikes.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Did you resolve the ich problem? That's a very serious problem that should've been dealt with ASAP. It can decimate a tank rather quickly. Though ammonia and nitrite are also very serious.

-Zeke


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Yes I think I did. I took the temp up to about 83° for 3 days and the spots cleared up.
I checked my ammonia, nitrate and nitrit and all where low, so I added the TSS. 
I will continue to check daily.




zwanged said:


> Did you resolve the ich problem? That's a very serious problem that should've been dealt with ASAP. It can decimate a tank rather quickly. Though ammonia and nitrite are also very serious.
> 
> -Zeke


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

CAM said:


> Anytime you do a water change, you have to use a conditioner. And you cannot use TSS within 24 hours of a water change because the conditioner will affect the bacteria in the TSS.
> 
> If I were you, I would add TSS as soon as 24 hours passes since your last water change and Ammonia and Nitrites are below 1 ppm.
> 
> I would also test water at least twice a day because you have 0 Nitrates.... means your Ammonia and/or Nitrites are going to see frequent and possibly large spikes.



Now that I have added the TSS, do I water change if the ammonia or the nitrites spike?
Or should I be changing 25% every week with the TSS in there .
Still trying to wrap my head around all this. Haha I'm just nervous, I don't want to hurt the fish.My little electric yellow guy swims up and down side to side like a maniac . First I just thought he was playin around but now I think he is just a little dumb now from my stupidity on cycling a tank .


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Little concerned. I treated the water with TSS last night and I've been seeing the oscars kinda like a gasping or gulping just like 2 or3 times. They don't do it all the time just randomly but when they do it they do it at the same time.
Any ideas?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Test for ammonia and nitrIte.Over 1ppm is usually the line that water changes are needed,but some who used TSS didn't change water till 1.5ppm and they never got there,although they did register 1ppm.
My best advice(appropriate for the TSS) is to read directions and search info on line.Between CAM and Zwanged they should know the whole deal on this product.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Yes.... keep testing the water. If you need to change water due to high test results, do it. Most of the TSS bacteria will be clinging to media or gravel within a few hours of dosing. And if you want, you can add more TSS. Just remember..... not with ammonia or nitrites over 1 ppm or within 24-ish hours after using your water conditioner.

TSS us not making your fish act funny.... it's harmless to them. You can not over dose either.... no such thing. It's your cycling and high ammonia or nitrites causing that.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

CAM said:


> Yes.... keep testing the water. If you need to change water due to high test results, do it. Most of the TSS bacteria will be clinging to media or gravel within a few hours of dosing. And if you want, you can add more TSS. Just remember..... not with ammonia or nitrites over 1 ppm or within 24-ish hours after using your water conditioner.
> 
> TSS us not making your fish act funny.... it's harmless to them. You can not over dose either.... no such thing. It's your cycling and high ammonia or nitrites causing that.


Gotcha. I'm on it. Haha 
I just don't want to screw up and kill my fish.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Here's where I learned most of what I know about TSS:

Tetra Tetra SafeStart® : Questions, Answers, How To, FAQs, Tips, Advice, Answers, Buying Guide


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay looks like Ammonia looks to be just a lil higher than .50ppm,Nitrite is at 0ppm and Nitrate is about 5.0ppm. Maybe I should do a water change to drop the ammonia some


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

You need some ammonia to cycle. I wouldn't do a WC unless i see it hit 1ppm. Same for nitrite. Just wait a few days and both should go to zero and you will have only nitrates (probably 10-20ppm), at which point you will be cycled.

Instructions on safestart say do zero water changes for first 2 weeks.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

You may already know this, but also make sure that when you do maintenance on your filter pads, you do so in old tank water...as using tap water will kill off most of the bacteria living in them. Don't mess with your filter pads at all right now as you are cycling...You need to give the bacteria a chance to colonize. 

-Zeke


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

zwanged said:


> Instructions on safestart say do zero water changes for first 2 weeks.
> 
> -Zeke


I would balance that instruction with the need to save your fish. If the Ammonia or Nitrite get high, I would do a water change and add more TSS 24 hours later.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yep .. I completely agree. I'm defining "high" as 1ppm of ammonia or 1ppm of nitrite.

-Zeke



CAM said:


> I would balance that instruction with the need to save your fish. If the Ammonia or Nitrite get high, I would do a water change and add more TSS 24 hours later.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

I think I needed a WC, the Oscars are acting a lot better.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Good !

What are your Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate test results today ?


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

CAM said:


> Good !
> 
> What are your Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate test results today ?


Ya know when I tested it the ammonia is bac a little over .25ppm

Nitrite around 0 ppm but the nitrates dropped hardly above 0 
I'll test after work tonight.
The only thing I added was the water conditioner.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm for real nervous about this cycle . I'm afraid I'm doing something wrong.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Burns412 said:


> Ya know when I tested it the ammonia is bac a little over .25ppm
> 
> Nitrite around 0 ppm but the nitrates dropped hardly above 0
> I'll test after work tonight.
> The only thing I added was the water conditioner.


Those wouldn't be bad readings. 

I knew I was nearing the end of the cycle though when my Nitrates jumped up to 40 ppm. When you see Ammonia near zero you can get false readings of 0.25 ppm), Nitrites at zero, and Nitrates jumping up, it's a done deal. Then you do water changes to lower the Nitrates and then slowly add more fish.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You got to listen to Zwanged and CAM. And honestly a I haven't had to think of cycling in like 20+ years(I always just use cycled material from existing tanks now) I would not change water until you are over 1ppm of ammonia or nitrite(getting closer to 1.5).You do need these things to get your filter up and properly functioning.You've gotten(been given )very good advice from both CAM and Zwanged,and I wouldn't have "passed the ball" to them if I didn't tink they would steer you right.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

You are right, they have given excellent advice.
I guess I kinda panicked when they where not acting normal.
Its kinda like now that I know just a little more about the ammonia and nitrite than before 
I'm like an over protective parent trying to keep the bad stuff away. 
Going to do a water check shortly.




coralbandit said:


> You got to listen to Zwanged and CAM. And honestly a I haven't had to think of cycling in like 20+ years(I always just use cycled material from existing tanks now) I would not change water until you are over 1ppm of ammonia or nitrite(getting closer to 1.5).You do need these things to get your filter up and properly functioning.You've gotten(been given )very good advice from both CAM and Zwanged,and I wouldn't have "passed the ball" to them if I didn't tink they would steer you right.


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Tonights Test.
Ammonia .25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate it does not look like its bright yellow on the chart 
But I wouldn't say its at 5.0ppm yet


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

That tiny amount of Nitrate could be in the tap water.

Just keep letting you bacteria colonies grow. With low readings, you could add more bacteria now, if you want to speed up the cycle.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Personally, I'd probably not bother spending more money on more bacteria -- TSS is not cheap -- i'd just wait and see what happens over the next few days. Just take readings once or twice a day and you should be good. 

That said, if you just happen to have more bacteria on hand anyway then it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more, though. (I'm assuming you already addded TSS). 

Just for your reference: When I cycled my tank with TSS and a few fish (added TSS at same time as adding fish), it took 10 days until the tank was cycled. That was with zero water changes. I saw ammonia almost go up to 1ppm (and nitrite at 0.75ppm), but I refrained from doing water changes. Fish weren't thrilled about that, obviously, but they survived as I have hardy fish.

Depending on # of fish in tank and your individual situation, your results could vary, but I'd say cycling will take approx 2 weeks from when you added bacteria initially. Excessive water changes may make it easier on your fish, but may slow down this process. It even could be counter-productive in some cases if you starve some of the nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia => nitrite, for example...they may die off without enough ammonia in the tank. So I'm going to advise sit tight, and test often. It takes a while for the bacteria to get in equilibrium with the amount of waste produced by your fish.

-Zeke


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you. And yes TSS is in there. Rather than getting more TSS I have Stress zyme on hand.







zwanged said:


> Personally, I'd probably not bother spending more money on more bacteria -- TSS is not cheap -- i'd just wait and see what happens over the next few days. Just take readings once or twice a day and you should be good.
> 
> That said, if you just happen to have more bacteria on hand anyway then it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more, though. (I'm assuming you already addded TSS).
> 
> ...


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## Burns412 (Apr 1, 2013)

I must say I'm impressed on how clear the water is in the tank and its not cycled correctly yet.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

My water only clouded *slightly* when i cycled. it doesn't necessarily happen during cycling. Probably a good sign, as normally very little bacteria is in the water -- it tends to live on surfaces of the tank + substrate + in the filter media, etc, and if your water is being clouded by bacteria, then it's probably indicative of a massive bacterial die-off. 

I think you're on the right track, just keep testing once of twice a day and soon you should see that ammonia (+ nitrite) hit zero and you should have just nitrAtes (e.g. in ballpark of 10-20ppm). 

At that point you can just do water changes to maintain nitrAtes at a non-toxic level to fish <40ppm, by doing weekly water changes, but I am in the camp that lower are better...I try to keep mine below 20ppm as that is more in line with what these fish experience in nature (more like 0ppm in nature for many fish, due to the massive water volume in proportion to the fish). Nonetheless, this is a somewhat controversial topic among fish-keepers...  There are plenty of articles online about this.

On my 75gal, I do about 30% water change per week -- which is fairly typical for a fully stocked tank. In general it's better to change more water rather than less -- just makes sure the temperature of the water being added roughly matches and you should be fine. And obviously apply the dechlorinator (e.g. prime) for the entire tank volume when you do water changes...if you are just hooking up a python to the sink to add water to the tank. 

Also, you should check out AqAdvisor.com for calculating the optimal water change schedule for your fish. It's a pretty neat tool.

-Zeke



Burns412 said:


> I must say I'm impressed on how clear the water is in the tank and its not cycled correctly yet.


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