# Help me with my first aquarium!



## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Hey guys,

I'd really like to have an aquarium, and I want to make sure I do it right. This will be for my home, not for my team (I asked for help on that earlier). It will also be my first "real" aquarium-- you know, fully researched and thought out, completely set up and cycled before adding fish, all that jazz.

Basically, I don't have a ton of money or a ton of space, but I want to do the best I can with what I can afford. I don't have much of anything yet; I figured I'd come here first and learn all I can before I even start buying things.

Because I'm a beginner, I'd like to keep it simple, if possible. I'd also like to keep it small so I can keep it in my dorm room/apartment (when I get one). I think ten gallons is my max, but I'd prefer to stick to 5. Freshwater, of course, but I'm willing to do either cold water or tropical (although cold water might be easier). I obviously don't want too many fish, but I'd like at least 2 or 3 if possible.

So, yeah. Any suggestions would be wonderful!
Thanks!


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

I would suggest going with a bigger tank. The bigger the tank the more forgiving the water will be as far as PH, Ammonia, Nitrites and nitrates go. Also, you will be able to get more in it obviously. If money is tight then check Craigslist for tanks and stands. There are really great deals on there a lot of times and you can get a 20 gallon tank for around $50-$60 most times(at least in my area). I would suggest going with a fishless cycle to start because they finish a lot faster and are easier to deal with. Planted tanks are also very fulfilling as well. I can't think of anything else ATM. Good luck.


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

I am with type on this one. I would go with minimally a 10 gallon tank. I started with a 3 gallon and just made more work for myself. Read up on fishless cycling http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html

Cold water isn't necessarily easier, just because you don't need a heater doesn't mean the fish is easier to take care of. Petco and Petsmart usually have pretty good deals on combos for tanks (usually combos at petco and petsmart are tank + hood, wit basic lighting). 

I would suggest to get a 10 gallon, do a fishless cycle, get a heater and get the temp up to 78 degrees Fahrenheit, and then get a school of tetras. They are bright colorful and easy for beginners. 

Another option is to go the route I am taking with my new 10 gal and to get white cloud minnows. They are a hardy fish and like temps from 64 - 72 degrees Fahrenheit which can eliminate the need for a heater. They can also survive in temperatures as cold as 41 degrees Fahrenheit and up to 90 degrees Fahrenheit for SHORT periods of time. I still have a heater on my 3 gallon tank (that currently holds the fish) as a just in case, especially with a mystery snail in the tank.

I looked up tanks on petsmart and you have many options.

This one is a bit more expensive, but comes with everything you need

SeaClear 10 Gallon Flat Back Hexagon Aquarium Starter Kit - Gift Shop - Fish - PetSmart

This one is less expensive, but you will need to buy food (which isn't expensive at all)

Marineland® Bio-Wheel® LED 10 Gallon Aquarium Kit - Gift Shop - Fish - PetSmart

diff company, but basically the same as the one above

Top Fin&#0174 10 Gallon Aquarium Starter Kit - Gift Shop - Fish - PetSmart

Just the aquarium and hood so you get to choose your filter

Top Fin® 10 Gallon Aquarium Hood Combo - Gift Shop - Fish - PetSmart


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

The only reason I was thinking a 5 or 10 gallon was because my dorm will only allow me to have up to 10 gallons. However, I think I can wait another 5 months until I have an apartment and then see how big I can go. I may be able to find room for a 20 gallon. If not, I'll probably take your suggestions for a 10 gallon.

Oh. I just thought of something-- could I do 5 or 10 gallons and have lots of plants and a single betta? Or are bettas difficult?


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

arenkel said:


> The only reason I was thinking a 5 or 10 gallon was because my dorm will only allow me to have up to 10 gallons. However, I think I can wait another 5 months until I have an apartment and then see how big I can go. I may be able to find room for a 20 gallon. If not, I'll probably take your suggestions for a 10 gallon.
> 
> Oh. I just thought of something-- could I do 5 or 10 gallons and have lots of plants and a single betta? Or are bettas difficult?


If you are planning on moving in 5 months then I would suggest waiting to get a tank. Once you have an established tank you more or less have to kinda start over. Plus if you wait the 5 months you will have more time to save up the $$ to get a better set up and more fish and deco.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

In a heated/air conditions room the simplist thing to do is a beaslbob build

But then what would you expect me to say.

but seriously look that up.

my .02


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## sion342 (Jul 31, 2011)

arenkel said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'd really like to have an aquarium, and I want to make sure I do it right. This will be for my home, not for my team (I asked for help on that earlier). It will also be my first "real" aquarium-- you know, fully researched and thought out, completely set up and cycled before adding fish, all that jazz.
> 
> ...


Well, suggest you to go with the 10 gals. planted and got 2 Bettas 1 male 1 female they will help you in your studies,cause they could work for you as a relaxer.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

FWIW I did a test tank with peat moss, soilmaster select (no longer available) in a 1-2 gallon jar. With micro sword, anacharis, and bacopa plants. A neon tetra lived in that jar for over two years.

I would use peat moss, play sand , and pc select doing it today.

But for a dorm tank where you will probably be moving it sometime that would be an idea.
see: Self-contained Microcosm


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

sion342 said:


> Well, suggest you to go with the 10 gals. planted and got 2 Bettas 1 male 1 female they will help you in your studies,cause they could work for you as a relaxer.


unless you are going with wild bettas (not suggested for beginners) DO NOT get multiple bettas in the same tank! Unless it's divided, both sexes can get mean and attack, if not kill each other...I would just wait on the tank, get it all cycled, and planted if you are so inclined (plants are fairly easy actually) and then get maybe one betta and a small school of tetras.


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Why deprive yourself of a couple of roommates for 5 months!... I suggest getting the tenG and placing it atop a small piece of plywood.. say about 24 inches long. (this will give ya a little 2" extension from the end of the tank... Hold your fish food!... Plus when ya move, drain it to about 3 inches of water and it's much easier to transport on the plywood and provide good support.. Total weight at 3" would be about 40 lbs. You fish can even live in that depth for a period of time. 
Cycling... Fish present cycling is quite a bit faster than fishless. I again suggest you beg borrow or steal some established media from a tank you trust. Either substrate or filter media. Grab some tiger or cherry barbs (2) and use them in the cycle. Once you've a stable tank, give em away. I feel they are basically carp and are notorious fin nippers. Grab some plants... Crypts (2).. vals (4).. cabomba and a few dwarf sags.. At 10G with those plants and a decent filter you could stock it as such: 5 Cardinal Tetra's.. then for an off contrast.. maybe lemon tets or diamond tets. Each will school independently. I'd add 2 or three of the smaller cory's to finish it off. Some will say you're overstocked but i think that the volume of plants will combat that issue. Bill in va.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A much easier plant substrate to use for such a small tank would be to get a $5 bag of safe-t-sorb from Tractor Supply Company. You won't need but a little bit of it, but you're only out the 5 dollars and done 30-40 minutes later. Above info is a little off, a fishless cycle can take as little time as 1wk, while one with fish will take much longer. Although if you find it difficult to follow directions, maybe it is harder. Either way can be sped up with established media from another tank. If you plant heavy first, wait about a week and add 1 fish per week. Not opposed to using fish, but am opposed to using fish and then getting rid of them somehow, but that is just me.


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## S.Oak (Dec 4, 2011)

Just to chime in:

The larger the tank, the more room for error you have. Those combo packs at the big box stores are about my least favorite things in the world, but they are pretty cost effective. My local Petco has a 15 gallon combo on sale for $40 right now. Not sure if that's a nationwide deal though. 

If your combo pack doesn't contain something to make tap water safe, you should get something. Amquel works well. 

A lot of live plants are going to frustrate you if you're not set up to keep them alive. Some easy beginner plants include Java Fern, and Java Moss. They don't need a lot of light or fertilizing. And, to be honest, they are about the only things that you'll have long term success with just using an aquarium combo pack.

Bettas are good beginner fish. They are tolerant of pretty crappy water, so you'll be alright if you forget a couple water changes. Just don't put more than 1 in a tank. They are very territorial. I like cherry barbs a lot for starter fish. They're active, pretty, hardy, and should cost you less than $2 per fish. Start with about 5 of them for a 10 gallon tank and then you could add some more in a week or 2 after your tank cycles. 

If you tape a piece of black construction paper, or black fabric or something to the back of the tank it can really make your fish look great. Especially if you go with cherry barbs.

-Clay


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

JR.. here is the proposed schedule for a fish-less cycle...
FISHLESS CYCLING: 
Day 1 - dose ammonia to 3 ppm 
Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) - measure ammonia and nitrite 
When both are gone add more ammonia to 3 ppm. 
Now measure every 2 days - when both are gone add more ammonia 
Now measure every day - when both are gone add more ammonia 
Continue to measure every day - when both gone and you add more ammonia and both ammonia and nitrite are 0 in 24 hours you're done!
Do a partial water change and add some fish!

Fish cycle in my experience works like this... 
Add water and dose with Prime (fixes the Chlorine, Chloramine and Ammonia from your tap). Wait a couple of hours and add seasoned media. 
Add two fish the next day.. small barbs.. 
Now you've got ammonia, and both bacteria needed to create nitrites and nitrates. 
Elapsed time? 24 hrs. 
Monitor your water chemistry daily for the first week.
I've done it with Discus, Angels and a number of Tetras... 
My lampeye tets (same school of 6) have cycled about a dozen tanks.. 
Fishless cycles can take up to 6 weeks dependent upon a number of factors. 
Bill in Va.


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

JR.. I have Safe-T-Sorb in one of my 155's.. 80 lbs of it.. Love the look, love how my plants react to it... 40 lbs for 4.50 dollars from Tractor Supply. It does require a ton of rinsing.. Lotsa dust in it. Pool Filter Sand is pretty good too.. and that's going for $10.00 for 50lbs.. enough to do 10 - 10G tanks!!!!...1/4th the rinsing effort over STS. With a 10G.. not much of a consideration. Bill in Va.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

williemcd said:


> JR.. here is the proposed schedule for a fish-less cycle...
> FISHLESS CYCLING:
> Day 1 - dose ammonia to 3 ppm
> Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) - measure ammonia and nitrite
> ...


You mean you can't add seasoned media to a fishless cycle? In your method just a couple of fish will take at least a few days to build any sort of ammonia, and a fishless I can do it in seconds.

Anything you can do with a fish cycle can be done with a fishless. Unless you are adding gobs of "seasoned media", and I mean like pounds of it, there is not very much of the beneficial bacteria you have transferred to the tank. Much of what is needed to stabalize a tank will still have to be grown. Your method is very fragile with only a tad of what will be needed to make the tank safe - not a cycled tank in my mind. If it has worked for you, great. However, most people might not have the amount of seasoned material you have to utilize to cycle their tank. I didn't have back when I was doing my first tank with fish. And a tank cycled with fish can take up to 10wks.

Like I said, I don't have anything against a fish cycle as long as it is done with care and the importance is saving the fish and not the cycle, but to each their own.


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

I know household ammonia isn't really considered a chemical but in my humble opinion I just hate adding anything to the water column, from the bottle, that nature doesn't provide. As gross as it might appear.. it's not unheard of for an ammonia injection to be supplied by human urine....ewwwww.....


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your wonderful advice!

I'm 99% sure that I'm going to wait until summer to start this project so I can have time to gather everything up (and save up some cash!)

Based on advice, I've decided:
-the tank will be cycled without fish (pure ammonia method, probably)
-I will thoroughly research any potential fish to make sure I have everything I need
-I will plant the tank (according to the type of fish I want), and I might poke around on the forums for some advice on how to do so

Here's where I could use advice: single male betta or a few (how many?) tetras? Where is a good place to buy fish? (I don't really know if I can trust the big-name pet stores)

Thanks!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

From what I hear male bettas don't really do well with other fish like tetras. The betta gets picked on by the faster moving fish.

I would go all out and fully planted. Live plants stop the ammoniam,nitrIte spikes because they actually prefer to consume any ammonia present before the final nitrates. So you can add just a fish and then not add food for a week, and that fish will never experience any ammonia spike. Plus the plants will be consuming its carbon dioxide and return oxygen as well.



Still just my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Clarification: single male betta OR a few tetras.
I think I'll start with a species tank; it just seems like it might be a bit easier.

I also plan on doing a fully planted aquarium; I want it to look and feel as natural as possible.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I was poking around on the internet today...

Appearance-wise, I like bettas better than tetras, so I'd rather go with a betta.

However, I also came across the otocinclus catfish, and I think it is just absolutely adorable. One site suggested keeping a betta and an oto in the same tank (>5 gal). Would that be a feasible option for me?


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Ah, now your after opinions.  good luck with that! 

For whatever reason, I hate betta's. So my vote is tetras!  But I prefer many small to few big. (of course, now I'm leaning towards many bigs... damn mts.) 

If you don't plan on doing this till Summer, I must insist you check your local craigslist daily (weekly) You will find someone just giving away a tank/stand/equipment before summer.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

I missed the >5gal part. Yes, single betta would be much better in your tank.

Otto's are kewl. Look into shrimp too. Ya can probably keep more shrimp than ottos in a >5gal tank.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

FishFlow said:


> I missed the >5gal part. Yes, single betta would be much better in your tank.
> 
> Otto's are kewl. Look into shrimp too. Ya can probably keep more shrimp than ottos in a >5gal tank.



I think you may have misread it as less-than-five, when what I wrote was greater-than-five. (Not trying to insult intelligence, so please don't take it as such)

I'm probably going to end up with something around the 5-10 gallon range because of my limited space and budget.


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

I would suggest, going as high with gallons as possible. I got an enitre 10 gal tank combo at petsmart for $30. Came with water comditioner, food, a filter, filter media, hood and lamp (you may need to get different lamps for live palnts).


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I'll definitely get as large of a tank as possible, but I may be limited in space (apartment). I think I'll start poking around on the internet and looking at pet store ads to see if I can find an inexpensive aquarium system


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

a 10 gallon tank is only 20" long. Or if you find a 10 gal hexagonal tank you are looking at about 14" long. They aren't very big and don't take up much space. I can't imagine it would be difficult to find a spot for one, I was able to in my dorm room.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

jbrown5217 said:


> a 10 gallon tank is only 20" long. Or if you find a 10 gal hexagonal tank you are looking at about 14" long. They aren't very big and don't take up much space. I can't imagine it would be difficult to find a spot for one, I was able to in my dorm room.


Thanks, I'll definitely take that into account.

Hmm... since a 10 gal isn't that big, maybe I should reconsider the betta.

I don't know what kind of fish I want! I like almost all of them, at least appearance-wise!


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

arenkel said:


> Thanks, I'll definitely take that into account.
> 
> Hmm... since a 10 gal isn't that big, maybe I should reconsider the betta.
> 
> I don't know what kind of fish I want! I like almost all of them, at least appearance-wise!


Well as stated before a general rule of thumb is about 1" of fish per 1 gallon of water. You can get a nice assortment of fish into a 10 gallon tank if you want, it just depends what you like. If you end up wanting smaller fish like tetras or endlers you can get more (I am planning on 7 white clouds for my 10 gal). If you want some bigger fish that get to 3 - 4" you won't be able to get as many fish.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I was poking around on liveaquaria.com looking at different types of fish, and I found "GloFish" (danio rerio).

They're brightly colored and very pretty, but I wanted to get an expert's opinion on them.

Here's the link Tropical Fish for Freshwater Aquariums: GloFish(R), Danio rerio


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> I was poking around on liveaquaria.com looking at different types of fish, and I found "GloFish" (danio rerio).
> 
> They're brightly colored and very pretty, but I wanted to get an expert's opinion on them.
> 
> Here's the link Tropical Fish for Freshwater Aquariums: GloFish(R), Danio rerio


Glofish are not popular and infact dissed by us long time aquarium keepers, purists.

They are created by implanting jellyfish dna in danios. Hence the vivid colors.

that said my wife and I started a wife's (10g) tank with 6 neon tetras and 5 glofish. all did very well using the beaslbob planted techniques. The glofish were very active in addition to being colorful.

my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I'd love recommendations for an easy-to-care-for 10 gallon planted freshwater tropical aquarium.

I really prefer fish with longer, sleeker bodies. What about some plants, a small school of little fishies, an algae cleaner, and [maybe, if I have room] one or two "show-off" fish?

If you could suggest inhabitants for a 10-gallon and ALSO include additional recommendations for a 15-gallon [if I can find space], that would be absolutely wonderful.

Thanks


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> I'd love recommendations for an easy-to-care-for 10 gallon planted freshwater tropical aquarium.
> 
> I really prefer fish with longer, sleeker bodies. What about some plants, a small school of little fishies, an algae cleaner, and [maybe, if I have room] one or two "show-off" fish?
> 
> ...


you might look up beaslbob builds here.

But then what did you expect from a beaslbob? *r2

Basically it is a natural, balanced, leiden or whatever planted tank method.

For a 10g I use 4-6 bunches of anacharis, 4-6 vals, 4 small potted plants (crypts , small swords) and a single amazon sword centerpiece.

For lighting an a 10g I use an incandescent fixture with the bulbs replaced with 3 13w 6500k spiral incandescent replacement bulbs from wall mart. They say 6500K daylight vertically on the package. The bulbs costs about $7 or so.

For a substrate I use a 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pc select from:

Pro's Choice Products

The peat moss is the 1 footx1footx3foot cubes (in plastic) canadian sphagum peat moss available from building supply stores. With no added ferts. Costs about $12 and not the small potting soil bags of peat moss.

play sand is from the building supply stores at about $3 for a 50 pound bag.

I had to contact proschoice above to get a local supplier. The pc select is used in baseball infields and is a baked clay. It costs $6 for a 50 pound bag.

All that substrate is enough for several tanks so you can share with friends or just use the left over in the lawn or garden. *old dude

To setup I put in a 1" layer of peat moss then add water to the top of the peat but not some much the peat floats. Then level the peat and clean the tank sides. 

Then add 1" of the sand and add water, level and clean.

Then add 1" of the pc select, wet, level and clean.

Before adding more water I plant the plants. Tall in back and down sides, potted left and right of center, amazon sword in center.

Then fill the tank with water poured over a dish/saucer.

Then wait one week. 

I then add a single fish. (neon, daino or male platty)

I then wait one week with no food being added.

I then add more fish (4 more neons, danios, or 2 more female plattys)

I then start adding 1-2 flakes of food per day.

If the tank clouds up I kill the lights and stop adding food until it clears. Then resume with less lighting and feeding.

Just to be clear, no mechanical filter or circulation, no water changes. Just replace evaporative water with water for a commonoly used cold faucet that been ran for 30 seconds or so.

No chemicals, no additives.

Just what I do.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

IMHO, an "easy-to-care-for planted freshwater tropical aquarium" has less to do with what type of substrate you have, as many will work, and more to do with the choice of light. 

Fill it full of Crypts or Vals, Anubias, and any other low-light plant...Anacharis is NOT low maintenance. You constantly have to trim and replant it. Get it, use it to get the tank through the nitrogen cycle and established and then throw it out. Even in low-light the stuff is a PITA.

The light drives everything. If you want easy low maintenance then pick something that is in the low-medium category.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

jccaclimber, thank you so much! Your advice is very helpful! (I would quote it, but it's so long!)

Back to my future aquarium: this may happen sooner than I thought because I'm moving to an apartment next month. I'm stuck between cardinal tetras and zebra danios, could someone list the pros and cons? If I can find space for a 15gal, how many schooling fish? Can I also throw in a couple of "showpiece"esque fish and maybe an oto or cory?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks again, jccaclimber! And I did mean tetras OR danios; I know I don't have space for both. I'm not a huge fan of how platies look, but thanks anyway!

Based on your suggestion, I'll probably go with the danios. Can you suggest a "less social fish" that would go well with the danios?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Update:
Although I would like a larger aquarium, I have found someone who is willing to give me their old 10 gallon for free.

I'm not sure if I'd still have room for the danios. Help?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

hey free is good.

the the "beaslbob" method above you should be able to keep 5-6 danios or neons with no problem.

my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Well, now I'm back to where I started-- stuck.

I don't have my heart set on danios, but I DO have my heart set on an aquarium full of healthy, happy fish. I will get whichever species will be happiest.

I want the fish to thrive, not just survive.

(I also plan on having a filter and such, by the way. Sorry, beaslbob)


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

sure use a filter if you want.

My point is the plants are the controlling factor.

FWIW my 10g had a stable population of 30 guppies for over 8 years all of which were descendants from the original cycle trio. With 1/2 dozen or so reproducing adults. I guess that's thriving.

You could just use something like dwarf sunburst platys. Strating with a male then a week later adding a couple of females. Then just let the population build to to whatever the tank can support.

Just an idea worth at most


.02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

FWIW we had 5 neons and 5 glo fish in a 10g planted for 2 years. Nice colorful display.


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## Sherry (Nov 22, 2011)

My suggestion is ... you can put platy's in your 10g. They are a very hardy fish, and they come in so many different colours. Get 5 males, if you don't want a population explosion. You can get 5 different colours. Since Platy's can get 2inches in length, I wouldn't put any more than 5 in your 10g tank. 
Just giving you another thing to think about.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Well, the free tank offer fell through.
Some time early next year, I'll get out there and buy a system and really get started. Not sure what size yet. I'll have to wait until I make some money :/

So, yeah. People are still more than welcome to offer their bits of advice, and I definitely appreciate it. I'm still not sure what kind(s) of fish I want. I guess that depends on the tank size.

I'll update when I know more about what my plan is.

Thanks!


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## Sherry (Nov 22, 2011)

Sorry to here that. 
Save your money. Don't settle. Get something you really want. This hobby can quickly go out of control if you let it. 
Put it on your list for Santa. You never know....LOL


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Hey guys, sorry it's been so long.

So, I'm all settled into the new internship and apartment, and I'm itching to get started on a tank.

The problem is, I still don't know what size tank to get, let alone what fish I want to put in it.

My apartment has plenty of floor space, but I'm on the third floor and I don't know where the supports are. Thus, I don't want to get something too heavy. At the same time, I know bigger is easier. I was thinking of talking to the owner of my lfs this week and seeing if he could hook me up with a deal. I don't think I can handle bigger than 20 gallons at this point. (I also need to consider the inevitable move to another apartment/home)

So, first things first- opinions on a 15 gal? 20 gal? 
What kind of stand/table would I need for a 15? For a 20?
Approximately how heavy will each tank be?

Thanks!



[Beaslbob, I did read that thread you made. I like it, but my apartment's heating/cooling system is far too unstable. Of course, I'll consider giving it a shot if you can suggest a way to do it with a heater? And maybe a filter? (I just like the idea of a filter, for some reason) ]


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

just a few other ideas, check with landlord to see if there may be restrictions,
you sound pretty pumped up about all this so go as big as you can, in a few months you'll be kicking yourself for settling on 10 or 15 gal, are all the apartments in your building are layed out the same? if so you can assume the walls in your apartment were built in same spot as person below you and so on, this should take care of support issues, or outside walls are the strongest. Make sure its out of the way, yet still a focal point many guests will be admiring it. if your having a party the last thing you want is your tank getting knocked over, (been there but luckily I was on ground floor) other than that good luck your in for hours of enjoyment


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Oh, all right. I'll try to get a bigger tank... 

You don't have to twist my arm to convince me.

I'll be visiting my lfs tomorrow. I'm busy tonight, and the owner is in shop on Thursdays. I've already made friends with him (he sponsored a tank for my project team), so we'll see if he can hook me up with a deal on a tank. I'll take used if there's one available.

Opinions on acrylic vs. glass? I'm thinking rectangular rather than bow-front (does bow-front even come that small?) and "regular" or long rather than tall (surface area, etc).

I guess that's where I stand for the moment. Thanks for walking me through this, guys. I really really appreciate it.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

What on earth is a 40b?

And what should I expect to pay for a tank? I don't really have any idea of what is a deal and what isn't.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Would it be better for me to buy the tank and setup separately or to get a kit? Kit seems easier, but it may not be the better option. I don't know.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Okay, just looked at the ad. It ends on Saturday, so I may go tomorrow.

I'm getting REALLY excited about this! 

The sale "Includes 10G, 20G Long, 20G High, 29G, 40G and 55G rectangular glass tanks"

So, either one of the 20s or the 40. Hmm... if I went with 20, I'd probably do either the regular or long. Which one is better? (among the 20s)


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks for all your help, jccaclimber. I'll stop pestering you... for now.

My current plan is to go talk to the very nice guy at my lfs and see what he has to offer. I doubt he'll mind if I get the actual tank elsewhere and go to him for the equipment. He'll probably have some decent advice and/or a used tank that I can buy.

I do not have a piece of furniture for a tank yet. I was going to get the tank first, then the furniture, and then start setting it up with plants, etc. If I find a stand that I love, great. If not, I'll just look for something when I go to IKEA this weekend (I have to go anyway, might as well look while I'm there).


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

my opinion is glass, alot less likely to get scratched.
Its good to be in good with a person ecspecialy the owner at your LFS you'll get good advice and they will get to know your setup, ask them about used tanks, My old FS had a memo board full of adds for all kinds of pet supplies.
I was always under the impression that the more surface water you have the more fish you could add so I prefer long tanks over tall ones however depends on what type live plants your using.
kits can be cheaper as long as everything in the kit is usable, sometimes they come with a small heater or pump and you may want something larger if you plan to use airstones or air powered decorations etc.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

After reading so many forum threads, I think it would be a good idea for me to get two tanks-- one for my primary setup and one for quarantine.

Would 10gal be sufficient for a quarantine tank?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Today was a pretty big day for me-- I finally did it!

To make a long story short, I spent something like 2 hours at my lfs just talking to the owner and figuring out what I'm doing. He's a great guy, and he gave me discounts on almost everything. (Of course, things were probably marked up before the discount, but still.) Everything except the tanks is from him; the tanks are from petco.

So, here's what I got:

Aqueon glass aquarium -- 20 gallon long
Aqueon glass aquarium -- 10 gallon (not 100% sure what to do with it yet)
Deep Blue glass canopy -- 20 long
Solarmax HE 230 -- high efficiency double T5 lighting system w/ 4 blue leds
Aqueon Power Filter 30 -- made for 30 gal, flow rate 200 gph
API Freshwater Master Test Kit
Seachem Acid Buffer -- non-phosphate buffer
Aqueon Water Conditioner
Marina Plastic Thermometer (the kind that looks like the ones you put outside)
Elite Submersible35 150W heater
Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate
One of those two-level black metal stands (planning on getting something to put underneath it and something for the 10gal to sit on as the bottom shelf is too big)

So, how did I do?

Edit: I have to do some more things before I can actually put water in it-- first up, figure out where it's gonna go. I need to get something to put under the stand and something for the 10 gallon to sit on. And, of course, a bucket. Can't forget the bucket. I'm also planning on getting more substrate to mix with the eco-complete so it's not so stark black. Finally, I'll need to get some plants. I saw a few at my lfs that I liked, but I can't remember their names. I'll save that for another post. Right now, judgement time!


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Woah. Just a bit overwhelming, but in a good way! 
I feel like I can/should respond, so...

1) 10 gallon will get a filter & heater (whole apt is cold), just wasn't on my priority list for today. I'll definitely consider a bubbler/sponge filter combo for that tank.
2) I'll do the pH test and get back to you.
3) Thanks for the tip. I'll do that test too.
4) The guy threw the buffer in for free, so I'll hang on to it for the time being.
5) The "Water Treatment Plant uses ozone as the primary disinfectant and chloramines as a secondary disinfectant" and " softens it’s water; lime softening uses calcium hydroxide to remove calcium, magnesium and iron". However, I am on the border between two townships, so I'm not sure which city my water actually comes from.
6) I'm not sure, but this one looks like I might be able to submerge it. Maybe.
7-10) I was planning on planting the tank immediately, so would that change the process you described?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Should I plant and then cycle, or cycle and then plant? Originally, I was thinking about planting first, but if planting after the tank is cycled is better, then that's what I'll do.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

congrats to ya, sounds like your on your way, You've certainly done your research so I'm sure you'll do just fine. Theres nothing I have to add to jccaclimber's advice, they covered it all. best of luck


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

The thermometer I have looks somewhat similar to the second picture, and it has a suction cup.

Can I cycle my tank with pure ammonia if I have plants in there?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> Should I plant and then cycle, or cycle and then plant? Originally, I was thinking about planting first, but if planting after the tank is cycled is better, then that's what I'll do.


I would plant the tank right from the start.

for reference check out this thread:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-beaslbob-build-methods-26410.html

(gee I finally got a chance to link to it. *old dude)

my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

So... plant it, add ammonia, and start cycling? Sounds easy enough.

I wonder if I can get the guy at my lfs to give/loan me some substrate from an already established tank to seed it with...
I've also seen recommendations for BioSpira (or something like that). Is it worth buying?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> So... plant it, add ammonia, and start cycling? Sounds easy enough.
> 
> I wonder if I can get the guy at my lfs to give/loan me some substrate from an already established tank to seed it with...


 probably but totally unnecessary with a planted tank


> I've also seen recommendations for BioSpira (or something like that). Is it worth buying?


NO.

Look lotsa plants will consume any ammonia present then as the bacteria build up the plants will consume the resulting nitrates.

Bactieria are free and will show up.

So there is no need to get seed sand or add expesnive bacteria or cycle chemicals. Just get fast growing (and expensive anyway) plants. The plants will be there years later and all the cycle stuff has at best a temporary effect.

my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I do have access to a goldfish tank, so I guess I could snag some of the muck from that.

Oooohhh... just had an idea. The filter bag in the goldfish tank needs to be changed anyway, so could I just set the dirty one in my new tank? (Filter's probably not the same, but I could just hang it on the edge or something)

With the gravel, I was thinking about putting it in a nylon stocking and just hanging that in the tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> I do have access to a goldfish tank, so I guess I could snag some of the muck from that.
> 
> Oooohhh... just had an idea. The filter bag in the goldfish tank needs to be changed anyway, so could I just set the dirty one in my new tank? (Filter's probably not the same, but I could just hang it on the edge or something)
> 
> With the gravel, I was thinking about putting it in a nylon stocking and just hanging that in the tank.


One thing that bothers me is that you're introducing everything in the gravel not just the bacteria. So you could be adding such things as ich, parasites and so on.

Meanwhile bacteria will come on it's own with no ammonia spikes in a planted tank.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

From what I've read, Ich is present in every tank as well as other parasites. The fish's immunity will fight it off if healthy.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jccaclimber said:


> I've gotten that impression as well. Plus freshwater ich is usually very easy to treat for those of us high tech folks that use heaters and change water.


I wouldn't know. 

I've never treated for ich. *old dude

my .02


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Just got home from work with more substrate and some plants. I'll be setting up the tank soon, but first I have to decide where to put it. And what to put it on.

I have a black iron stand, and most of my apartment is carpet. Suggestions?


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

what kind of feet does your stand have? if it has small skinny feet you may want to put some wood blocks or furniture disks under them so the feet dont dig into the carpet, other wise your tank might be a little shakey. Also when you get it in the spot you want add a few inchs of water and take a good look at the water level to make sure the tank is level as possible.check for level from side to side and front to back.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

jccaclimber said:


> Use furniture feet if you're concerned. As small though as a 20 gallon tank is I wouldn't worry about it, it isn't worse than a table or person sitting in the same place on a chair.


 I think a 20 gallon full of water and substrate etc can be a bit heavy.IMO. You want to make sure its stable,. Some of them stands have pretty skinny feet and you dont want to damage your carpet either, get yourself a few furniture feet just to be safe


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I just got a sturdy piece of particle board, about 1/2 in thick. Seems to be doing all right. Tank is filled, filter is running, plants are planted, heater and lights are on. 

After 24 hours, pH of my tap water is 7.6 low pH, 8.2 high pH. After an additional 10 hours, high pH went down to 8.0


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

*w3:good-news:


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## f1shy (Jan 21, 2012)

ALWAYS GET THE TEN GALLON when you're deciding over a tank less than 10 gallons and a 10 gallon always get the 10 gallon because the only thing that can live in a 5 gallon is a snail, a betta, ghost shrimp and not all three at the same time if you got the 5 gallon you would have one betta and a shrimp or snail if you wanted the 10 gallon can have WAY more than that considering you want about 3 fish maybe you could get tiger barbs they are semi aggresive but are good in a school but you can have about 3 and be ok


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I wouldn't know.
> 
> I've never treated for ich. *old dude
> 
> my .02


I believe that. I have read your metods for treating. Your tanks don't really allow you to anyway or I should say that treating in your tanks would be pointless. Sort of a moot point.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm a bit concerned about the pH of my tap water. I know 8.2 isn't all that basic in the grand scheme of things, but I don't want it to hurt my fish.

Any suggestions?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

arenkel said:


> I'm a bit concerned about the pH of my tap water. I know 8.2 isn't all that basic in the grand scheme of things, but I don't want it to hurt my fish.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Mine is 8.2 out of my tap. Leave the ph as is. I kept most of my fish in it without any problem. You should read up on how to drip acclimate them before adding to your tank. It will help them adjust to your water slowly and increases their survival chances.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

To keep the tank as consistent as possible, I'm not going to attempt to buffer it. 
I've read about drip acclimation, and it seems reasonable.
The only thing that bothers me is that some of the fish that I really like (panda cory, for example) are described as liking a lower pH. I'd rather change my water source than settle for fish that I don't absolutely love.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

That's quite comforting, and I thank you for that. I was getting pretty worried. I guess I'll just let the tank do its thing and try to keep it consistent.

The tank has been running for about 24 hours now. My tap water was quite cold, and I was a bit afraid that my plants would die if it didn't heat up fast enough. Well, it took a while to warm up, but my plants seem to still be doing all right. I set up the light today and left it on for about 8 hours. My water heater was set to 76, but my thermometer (on opposite corner of tank) was reading almost 80. I turned the heater down to 72 about an hour ago, and I'm not seeing any change just yet. I expect it'll take a while. I have an old and very very dirty filter bag clipped to the side of the tank, so I'm hoping to seed bacteria that way and speed up the cycle. I looked for some ammonia at the hardware store, but all I could find was lemon-scented stuff. I guess I'll have to try another store, but I can't keep running around for much longer. If I can't find any pure ammonia, what else works well to help cycle the tank?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Turns out, there's an ACE hardware just a mile from my apartment that Google Maps didn't know was there. What a happy find! I got the store brand ammonia ("janitorial strength", whatever that means) and have added 2 teaspoons to my tank. I'll let it go for a couple of hours and then test for ammonia.

Now that I finally remember the names of most of my plants, I guess I'll let you guys know what I have: 2 bunches of anacharis (un-bundled and spread out), 2 jungle vals (one has a little shoot-off, so soon to be 3 jungle vals!), 1 java fern (came potted, not sure what to do with it), 2 crypts of some sort (I think), and 1 plant that may or may not be anubias. It looks a bit sparse, to be honest. I'm hoping that the anacharis and jungle val will grow relatively quickly so I can take cuttings.

Since I'll have some time before the tank is cycled, I guess I should start thinking about decorations. I want to keep it as natural-looking as possible, so I figure driftwood or bogwood would be good. Any other suggestions?


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

take that java fern out of the pot asap!... That plant should be anchored to either drift wood or stone. The rhizome will rot if buried. I use black sewing thread to anchor the rhizome.. The plant will eventually form hairlike threads to do the anchoring itself.. These Crampons will grow pretty rapidly and the sewing thread will rot away.. Bill in Va.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't have anything to anchor it to, except the pot...
Maybe I could tie it to the side of the pot and then put the pot on the substrate? I'd think it would make a nice hiding place for a tiny fish.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Yeah. That was waaaay too much ammonia. I did a 50% water change, checked the levels, and then did another 10% water change to get it to 4 ppm.

I'll get a dropper and something to tie the plants to.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Okay, I went to the store. Again.

I now have a dropper for the ammonia and a rock and some driftwood. I'll start boiling the wood pretty soon. Do I need to do anything to the rock? It came from my lfs, so it should be fine to put in the tank, right?

The plant that may/may not be anubias has grown a very long root reaching towards the top of the tank. What should I do about it?


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

To gross ya all out.. I've read of some hobbyist using human urine to provide the ammonia... (will I be banned/chastised for this?).. Bill in Va.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't have vinegar. I have lemon juice though-- is that a strong enough acid?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

It's striped dark grey and white, rough but no visible pores, a few shimmery spots (possibly evidence of a crystalline structure?) are visible


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

All right. I guess I'll pull out the cotton thread and tie down that Java Fern. 
I'll see if I can get my cheap camera to work so I can get a shot of the mystery plant for you guys.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

It's the plant in the foreground. (That ugly thing in the back is really dirty filter media from another tank. Yes, my anacharis looks odd at the moment. I'll move it later.)


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I know the old filter media is helpful, but it's not exactly the most beautiful thing in the world.

A tiger lotus? Okay, how do I take care of it?
(I don't think I ever remembered what that poor thing was, so sorry about the mis-naming)


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I tested my water two days ago and found a slight trace of nitrites. Not enough for a numerical reading, just enough purple to be above 0ppm.

I didn't test it yesterday, but I tested this morning. Ammonia was around 2ppm, so I added 4 drops of ammonia to the tank. I got a pretty high nitrite reading, somewhere between 2 and 5 ppm. I'm happy that I'm getting nitrite readings so quickly; I just hope it keeps going at this pace! I know it probably won't, but wouldn't that be nice?

My anacharis is not doing well. I don't know what's wrong, but all of the strands are droopy and turning brown. My other plants seem okay, but I'm worried. Help?


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## ApplestoApples (Jan 28, 2012)

You could get some endlers there so beautiful!i just ordered some from susankat


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## ZachZaf (Jan 26, 2012)

arenkel said:


> I was poking around on the internet today...
> 
> Appearance-wise, I like bettas better than tetras, so I'd rather go with a betta.
> 
> However, I also came across the otocinclus catfish, and I think it is just absolutely adorable. One site suggested keeping a betta and an oto in the same tank (>5 gal). Would that be a feasible option for me?


Bettas can cohabitate with a number of species (other than their own...) and oto's are one, i have two otos with my betta, however be mindful that oto's seem to produce A LOT of poo considering how little they (noticeably) eat from the tank and they spend a lot of time eating organic plant life... 


If your tank is big enough you can mix tetras with Betta's just watch the interaction in the first few weeks, i have a small school of neon tetras in with the others above and they seem to keep to them selves. the only problems i have had with the betta is having to remove certain rock types from the setup because his fins were tearing on the,.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Well, now that ApplestoApples and ZachZaf bring it up, maybe I should start considering fish choices so I can have it all figured out before I start introducing fish to my tank.

My water has a pH of around 8.0 out of the tap. I don't have a way to test KH or GH at the moment, but I'll see if I can find test kits the next time I go to my lfs. I would estimate that my water is on the harder side, judging by my hair (not a very scientific method XD).

I've been told that most fish can adapt to many water conditions, as long as everything is consistent. Therefore, I'm not planning on using chemicals to lower my pH. I'd rather just use less delicate fish that will adapt quickly and be happy in my rather basic water.

So, here's a list of things I like:
Panda Corydoras (I want these the most)
Otocinclus
Cardinal Tetras
Neon Tetras
Zebra Danios
Guppies and other small livebearers
Glass Catfish
Cherry Barbs
Harlequin Rasboras
Dwarf Frogs
Bettas (not likely for this tank)

I am, of course, open to other suggestions.

I know I can't have all of these, and not all of them will be compatible with the other fish I've listed and/or my water conditions.

Help me out please?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks!

Add to the list: platys. I've changed my mind on them. 
Remove from the list: cardinal tetras. Apparently they're a little fussy about water conditions.

So far, I'm thinking a handful of Panda Corys (is ~5 good?) and a small school of Otos (6+). 

I'm stuck on neon tetras, zebra danios, guppies, and platies. I really don't know what to do there. The livebearers like high pH, but I'm having a hard time giving up on danios and tetras.

By the way, I tested my water hardness: 89.5ppm KH, 161.1ppm GH.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

Okay, so water hardness/pH aside, would you choose platies, guppies, danios, or tetras or a combination thereof? I want your personal opinions.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

arenkel said:


> Okay, so water hardness/pH aside, would you choose platies, guppies, danios, or tetras or a combination thereof? I want your personal opinions.


I recommend platys for a first tank. I just let the population build up.

After the tank has be establised a few months then danios. they are hardy and active.

IME I could never get platys and guppies established in the same tank. Once one dominated the other suffered.

I do fine neon tetras to be a bit sensitive for the beginner. But when I use peat moss in the substrate I find they do very well.

still just my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

arenkel said:


> Okay, so water hardness/pH aside, would you choose platies, guppies, danios, or tetras or a combination thereof? I want your personal opinions.


Danios are one of the most recommended fish out there for a new tank due to how hardy they are - I've never had them. I like Platies over Guppies. Most of time you get Guppies you risk that they have been overbred and have weak immunity lines. Neons/Cardinals are not hard. If they make it through the first 10 days in your tank they will be fine and are actually fairly hardy fish from that point.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't suppose I could do both platies AND tetras... could I?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, just add slowly whatever you do. The Tetras are more soccial and do better in groups. Just keep that in mind when setting your stocking limit.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

My nitrites are spiking at the moment, so hopefully they'll start declining soonish.
I may have another few weeks to go. We'll see.

When I do start adding fish to my tank, which ones should I add first? Here's what I've read-- add slowly so as to not overload the bacteria, add less aggressive/territorial fish first, try to add whole groups of social fish at one time so as to not disturb a hierarchy later. So, who goes in first?


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## sion342 (Jul 31, 2011)

Just keep change the water at least 25% / 50%


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I can't make up my mind! I like all of the fish!

However, I think I'm going to remove otos from my list. They're cute, but I've heard they can be a bit delicate and I don't know if I can handle that. I'm thinking about adding in some red cherry shrimp and/or a snail instead.

I have also discovered dwarf and pygmy corys (not sure what the difference is, really, but they're both adorable!), and I really like them. But I've read that they like sand, so I don't think that's a good choice for me. I have eco-complete and some gravel, which might tear up their tiny barbels.

Platies still on the table, as are tetras of multiple varieties. 

I found a list of suggestions for how to stock a tank, so I thought I'd post a few. 
Here's for a 20 tall:
- 4 platies, 6 neon tetras, 4 corydoras, 1 snail
- 10 neon tetras, 10 pygmy corys, snail
Here's for a 20 long:
- 5 zebra danios, 6 neon or cardinal tetras, 4 corydoras
- 3 swordtails, 6 larger tetras, 4 panda corys, snail
- dwarf gourami, 6 neons or cards, 2 platies, 4 panda corys, snail
- dwarf gourami, 8 neons or cards, 4 panda corys, snail
They also posted some for 5, 5 hex, 10, and 29 gallon tanks.
Here's one of their suggestions for a 10 gallon:
-honey gourami, 6 harlequin rasboras, 6 ghost shrimp, snail

Obviously, I'm having a hard time making this decision. I really don't want to mess up and end up with fish I don't like or worse, a bunch of dead fish.


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

According to AqAdvisor, I can keep a trio of platies, 5 panda corys, 6 pristella tetras, and a handful of red cherry shrimp and be fine. This is my tentative plan for the tank. 

When it's done cycling, I think I'll add the platies or tetras first. Probably platies, unless they get territorial. If the tetras can handle any stress that may come with a newly cycled tank, then maybe I should add them first.

Should I add a couple more tetras? I'm a bit hesitant about it because I don't want too many fish.
If the platies breed, will the other fish eat the fry?
I'm aware that the rcs may breed, and that's okay with me. I'm assuming the other fish will love shrimp fry, and I could always quarantine the shrimp if I want babies.

So, suggestions, comments?


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## arenkel (Nov 28, 2011)

I've decided!
3 pineapple platies (2f, 1m)
5 panda corydoras
6 x-ray pristella tetras
handful of red cherry shrimp

My water is reading 0ppm for ammonia and nitrite (and I dosed 8 drops ~24hrs ago). I called my lfs and placed an order for the platies, so in the mean time, I guess I'll do my pwc, set up my QT, and keep dosing ammonia.


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