# excell and fert questions



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have been using excell in an attempt to kill algae.I am dosing much higher then what is recommended for average use(how to kill algae).My question is ;since excell is a carbon source,and carbon dosing is used in marine aqauriums to lower nitrates should I be getting the same effect in freshwater?
My nitrates have gone WAY down on weekly test since I have been using high amounts of excell.I have wondered but never found any info on carbon dosing freshwater tanks to lower nitrates?
Next about ferts.How can I test my water to know if I am using enough ferts?Is it a simple nitrate test?Am I looking to raise my nitrates to a certain level?
some sites about algae issues recommend X level of each fert,but how do I know how much I am installing.
I'm hip to adding till I see distress or test high levels,but this has not been the same lately!
And a final extra question;I have brown algae forming on some leaves lately that is easily wiped off with my thumb.Is this iron precipitating from the water due to the added amount of excell?Excell claims to convert iron to be more easily taken in by plants.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> I have been using excell in an attempt to kill algae.I am dosing much higher then what is recommended for average use(how to kill algae).My question is ;since excell is a carbon source,and carbon dosing is used in marine aqauriums to lower nitrates should I be getting the same effect in freshwater?
> My nitrates have gone WAY down on weekly test since I have been using high amounts of excell.I have wondered but never found any info on carbon dosing freshwater tanks to lower nitrates?
> Next about ferts.How can I test my water to know if I am using enough ferts?Is it a simple nitrate test?Am I looking to raise my nitrates to a certain level?
> some sites about algae issues recommend X level of each fert,but how do I know how much I am installing.
> ...


I am also battling algae in both of my tanks, especially hair algae growing on my mosses. I've had to dump most of my moss out and leave just a little to grow back. Now when I do a water change, I take the excel dose, put about 2 cups of water with it, then soak all the mosses with it while they are out of the water temporarily. I do my regular maintenance, then refill the tank. This seems to keep the hair moss at bay. I do not need to overdose with the excel if I dose the moss every water change.

Regarding your fertilizer questions, I do not have an answer, but to me, if your plants are healthy with the regular dosage of ferts, I wouldn't change it, especially since you still have an algae problem.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The presence of algae doesn't always mean healthy plants if the algae is on the plants. I would use the recommended dosage for EI dosing. The formation of algae can be from a lack of proper fertilization and that is hard to know without playing around with the levels. EI ensures that the levels are in excess so that the plant never wants for any. If the plants want for any ferts this will usually cause an issue with the formation of algae or decaying health. One usually causes the other.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The Brown dust is IMO definately diatoms from silicates or phosphate.I just tested my po4 and it is all of 2+.I know this doesn't scream to plant keepers,but I am suprised.I also remembered(just noticed) that I pulled ALL of my purigen from the sump for recharging a week or two ago(about the timeline on diatoms) .It needed to be recharged and questioned whether it was helping or hurting what I am trying to achieve.It(4 bags) goes back in today along with possibly a complete re arrange of tank.I got new "java wood" which is sold for birds.It is coffee tree wood that "is no longe productive" and looks pretty cool.
I have found some info on carbon dosing(like in marine aquariums) in reference to freshwater and it appears possible this is the source of my nitrate reduction(hovering around 10-20 ppm),which is 1/2 of where I usaully end up in one week.I question adding phosban(much like the purigen) but may end up adding some if other measures don't resolve the diatom issue.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> The Brown dust is IMO definately diatoms from silicates or phosphate.I just tested my po4 and it is all of 2+.I know this doesn't scream to plant keepers,but I am suprised.I also remembered(just noticed) that I pulled ALL of my purigen from the sump for recharging a week or two ago(about the timeline on diatoms) .It needed to be recharged and questioned whether it was helping or hurting what I am trying to achieve.It(4 bags) goes back in today along with possibly a complete re arrange of tank.I got new "java wood" which is sold for birds.It is coffee tree wood that "is no longe productive" and looks pretty cool.
> I have found some info on carbon dosing(like in marine aquariums) in reference to freshwater and it appears possible this is the source of my nitrate reduction(hovering around 10-20 ppm),which is 1/2 of where I usaully end up in one week.I question adding phosban(much like the purigen) but may end up adding some if other measures don't resolve the diatom issue.


I looked up phosphate levels in planted tanks and your levels are high but not screaming. To measure silicates, you need a test and I found one for under $20:

Amazon.com: Seachem MultiTest Silicate Test Kit: Pet Supplies

My nitrates are measure 0 because I change 75% of my water every day and I still have lots of BBS covering the top of my sand substrate. I've just given up trying to control it for now. 

I've done some reading and algae control is fivefold:

Water parameters, light, water turbulence, and chemical and animal control.

Water parameters - need to have all those $$ test kits to find out exactly what you start out with - your tap, and what's in your tank.

Light: too much= algae, too litttle= dead plants. Need to play with it to see which is the best level. 

A powerhead or two in dead spots to keep the water flowing in the tank prevents algae from settling on your plants.

Chemical - spot treating with with Excel at dilution of 1:3 and using in your tank regularly

Phosban soaks up phosphates and silicates so this is probably good for your tank.

Purigen...I have but don't use in my tank. My ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are all 0 and I still have BBS. I haven't tested my shrimp tank which has the hair moss problem and suspect that nitrates are high there as I've been overfeeding because the plecos there decided to have 100 babies last year and I grew them out in that tank. I have only 5 babies left since I sold them all recently (yeah!), so things should be going back to normal soon I hope. I've also installed a DIY Kaldnes filter in the shrimp tank to see if that will help with the nitrification. If you are interested, there is a link in my signature.

animal: mollies, SAE, nerite snails, amano shrimp

I have albino bristlenose plecos and they DO NOT eat BBS. I purchased 2 nerite snails for my 45G tank and don't see much change yet except they lay eggs everywhere :|

I'm going to buy some mollies and platys to see if they will eat BBS. I can't have any SAE's just in case they like my discus more than the BBS. 

I can't install a powerhead because my discus like calm water.

Conclusion - I may have to live with BBS in my main tank littering the bottom of my tank forever.

Hope I haven't bored/frustrated you with relating my algae problems while addressing yours.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So here it is;I have 4 hydors to increase circulation(read all about dead spots),I dose ferts and am sure the po4 is part of them,have pretty high light on 8 hour cycle(24 linear feet of true lumen PROs LEDS 12K{very powerful}),pressurised co2 bring pH from 7.4 to 6.1 but never really shuts off during the day.And sit down for this;have been adding 150ml of excell daily to the 180g(probly in the 210g total volume with sump) for ...Well almost 1 gallon worth!I also hit certain spots with h2o2 at a rate of almost 20ml when I get to it!The diatoms wipe right off with my thumb and I do think the purigen will take care of this(never had it before and always until late have used purigen).As for the BBA well I have removed almost every piece of mopani(why I bought new coffee wood),and even picked individuall grains of gravel out!I may order more excell as I believe the addition of carbon is lowering my nitrates(probly will lower dose),but I think I'll give an all out effort with H2o2 next(way cheaper!).I too can live with some BBA(on the overflows) but it HAS to go everywhere else.
I appreciate your help and research.I often gain alot looking into others issues,so I hope this has helped you to.I'll post alink(a good one) on algae in a minute when I find it.
Algae in the Planted Aquarium-- Guitarfish


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> So here it is;I have 4 hydors to increase circulation(read all about dead spots),I dose ferts and am sure the po4 is part of them,have pretty high light on 8 hour cycle(24 linear feet of true lumen PROs LEDS 12K{very powerful}),pressurised co2 bring pH from 7.4 to 6.1 but never really shuts off during the day.And sit down for this;have been adding 150ml of excell daily to the 180g(probly in the 210g total volume with sump) for ...Well almost 1 gallon worth!I also hit certain spots with h2o2 at a rate of almost 20ml when I get to it!The diatoms wipe right off with my thumb and I do think the purigen will take care of this(never had it before and always until late have used purigen).As for the BBA well I have removed almost every piece of mopani(why I bought new coffee wood),and even picked individuall grains of gravel out!I may order more excell as I believe the addition of carbon is lowering my nitrates(probly will lower dose),but I think I'll give an all out effort with H2o2 next(way cheaper!).I too can live with some BBA(on the overflows) but it HAS to go everywhere else.
> I appreciate your help and research.I often gain alot looking into others issues,so I hope this has helped you to.I'll post alink(a good one) on algae in a minute when I find it.
> Algae in the Planted Aquarium-- Guitarfish



Excel is just glutaraldehyde, a disinfectant. A common brand name is Metricide. You need to mix it so that it's 1.5% which is the concentration of Excel. 

I can't attach an .XLS file here so here is a linke to spreadsheet to help calculate the amounts:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/attachment.php?attachmentid=13193&d=1290544076


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK so I'm almost out of the excell and have ordered metricide14.I understand the dilution,but wonder if it is necessary or if I could just dose 1/2 as much of the metricide as is?The metricide 14 is 2.5% so it could easily be cut,but I do I really need to.
I read Aubans trick post and am thrilled to see his carbon dosing info,I too really think,and found info on it lowering nitrates,which is one reason I'm going to continue with dosing.Also read a bunch of links on how the glut was "proven" by seachem to increase plant growth 200-500%.So I feel comfortable in continuing the use along with my ferts and co2.The tank is looking pretty good and plants are growing well.There is no new growth of BBA so this may also be helping in this area.
Adding for edit that I am increasing my ferts also.I am using AF(aquarium fert.com) macro micro nutient mix at 12ml now.I'm conidering hooking up a dosing pump to ensure daily levels.We will see what this does.I'm not to worried as "I change water"!


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> OK so I'm almost out of the excell and have ordered metricide14.I understand the dilution,but wonder if it is necessary or if I could just dose 1/2 as much of the metricide as is?The metricide 14 is 2.5% so it could easily be cut,but I do I really need to.
> I read Aubans trick post and am thrilled to see his carbon dosing info,I too really think,and found info on it lowering nitrates,which is one reason I'm going to continue with dosing.Also read a bunch of links on how the glut was "proven" by seachem to increase plant growth 200-500%.So I feel comfortable in continuing the use along with my ferts and co2.The tank is looking pretty good and plants are growing well.There is no new growth of BBA so this may also be helping in this area.
> Adding for edit that I am increasing my ferts also.I am using AF(aquarium fert.com) macro micro nutient mix at 12ml now.I'm conidering hooking up a dosing pump to ensure daily levels.We will see what this does.I'm not to worried as "I change water"!


If you dose pure metricide 14, wear gloves and eye protection. It's pretty strong stuff apparently. 

There are many that do not dilute and use straight up. Multiply what you are using for excel by .6 as Metricide 14 is 60% than Excel.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Berylla said:


> If you dose pure metricide 14, wear gloves and eye protection. It's pretty strong stuff apparently.
> 
> There are many that do not dilute and use straight up. Do you need the dosage?


I think I got it figured out?I will probly start low and work up,but after weeks of 150ml of excell,have to wonder what is low?75-90ml?


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> I think I got it figured out?I will probly start low and work up,but after weeks of 150ml of excell,have to wonder what is low?75-90ml?


Hahaha! Keep us updated. I'm going to by Metricide 14 once my Excel runs out. BTW, where did you buy? Thanks.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Metricide 14 Day 1 Gallon | eBay
First seller;medicalrite.They shipped in like 10 minutes!
Saw lots of bad reviews of a seller from FLA. on PTP that sold them metricide omnicide.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I have used the alternative from Excel. I just dosed directly. I think you will notice that you'll end up coming back to Excel eventually. The alternative works great on the BBA but it seems like whatever you had gained in growth from the Excel, you lose with the alternative. You should get your lighting and fert dosing under control where you should only need a small amount. Keeping it away using this stuff is much easier than getting rid of some you may already have.

CO2 is also a carbon source and not sure I believe any claims that Excel affects nitrates. Maybe dosed at really high levels anything is possible, but high doses are not normally needed. Also what Seachem says about Excel in plant growth is not compared to CO2. Your CO2 will do much more than Excel ever could for plant growth.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

What sea chem adds to the excell besides the glut is a trade secret so no real telling what the difference will be.Basically it was 1/2 price of the best deal I could find when I got my gallon of excell.Got to try it to know?
I certainly don't even believe seachems claim on growth(200-500%) but thought it would get a laugh.
I do think there might be something to carbon dosing for nitrates,but I don't think it is real important as nothing can replace waterchanges in my book.But If it helps a little I'll weigh the benefit and cost over time.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> I have been using excell in an attempt to kill algae.I am dosing much higher then what is recommended for average use(how to kill algae).My question is ;since excell is a carbon source,and carbon dosing is used in marine aqauriums to lower nitrates should I be getting the same effect in freshwater?
> My nitrates have gone WAY down on weekly test since I have been using high amounts of excell.I have wondered but never found any info on carbon dosing freshwater tanks to lower nitrates?
> Next about ferts.How can I test my water to know if I am using enough ferts?Is it a simple nitrate test?Am I looking to raise my nitrates to a certain level?
> some sites about algae issues recommend X level of each fert,but how do I know how much I am installing.
> ...


I'll fully admit that I have not yet read this entire thread.
Excel is good for certain algae types, but also happens to be hard on crypts and vals. They'll usually live, but with muchly reduced growth rates. Glutaraldehyde works just as well and costs less. Remember to adjust the dosage as glut tends to be sold in a higher concentration than is found in Fluorish Excel. Don't worry about high nutrient levels, they won't give you algae that you wouldn't have had anyways. I don't like to see nitrates much above 40, but I wouldn't worry immensely unless you're breeding. Phosphate, trace, fe, etc I've shoved off the top of the charts without issues to my livestock or plants. A complete shortage of phosphate will cause plants issues, but *assuming everything else including carbon is available* a nutrient increase such as more phosphate should not cause you any issues in a planted tank.
Your diatom issue will probably pass with better plant health, and is not iron precipitating out unless you have red tap water.
Unlike salt tanks where it is cheaper to test than to change water, with freshwater I just dump lots of ferts in (see EI dosing), then change a lot of water each week. I do reduce the nitrate levels as I have found they go very high with my dirt and food inputs if I add KNO3.

Excel increasing the nitrate (and P, K, and trace) consumption of plants is logical if they were previously carbon limited. Unlike a salt tank though it is the plants, not the bacteria causing the increased consumption.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Two more things to note with the algae a couple people have mentioned in this thread.
1) Concentrate on growing healthy plants and they'll take care of a lot of your algae issues for you.
2) Most green stringy algae is easily set back with a 1-2 Punch (look up the thread on TPT). I've used it in a couple tanks with and without the 2nd part (excel) with good success and no deaths. I have always disconnected the filters during the H2O2 portion.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The plants are growing very well now(last couple months).I have been trying to elimnate BBA and I geuss I have made pretty good progress.
I will tend to agree with jr on it is probly alot easier to control new growth then remove existing.But I think it is working although slowly.
I will also agree that the end result of carbon dosing(lower nitrates) very well may be the result of plant uptake,this makes sense.But it is suspicous that with just the lack of the glut that the plants don't take up as much nitrate?
I have also been targetting H2o2 to my overflows which are where the only remaining BBA is.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Do you know how much PAR you have? Is your light above the tank or on it? You may just have too much light. I may let you borrow my PAR meter if you are interested. Do you have the ability to raise the light?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I do think I'm in high par range.I have a total of 24 feet of truelumen Pros in the 12k range.I can raise my lights as they are on a frame I hang on chain links.I have actually moved them up a while ago,and all but 6 feet([email protected]' & [email protected]') are aprox 12" above water.The [email protected]&[email protected] are about 3" above water.My lights run 8 hrs a day.
According to Hoppys link [email protected]" rated around 55 @25".These readings are done in air not water,but I'm way over 6' in totall.
Here's Hoppys link(I know you know all about it jr) for those trying to figure PAR;
Lighting an Aquarium with PAR instead of Watts
Again I'm running 24 linear feet of Current True Lumen PROS.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Is your setup dimmable? Part of it maybe?

My new BML lights are definitely high light as for the two tanks they are on are sitting right on top of the tank. I knew it would be high but I also got the dim option and on my dual BML 125g tank, one dim controller controls both lights together. 

I don't want high light. High light creates a situation where you can get one little hiccup and the next thing you know you have an algae problem. I have dealt with that quite a few times and it is not very fun. I have found that everything I want to grow I can do so with light that is right on the edge of med/high. I haven't yet, but I plan to test with my PAR meter and adjust back to where I want it and leave it. I have both tanks adjusted back to about 80-85% right now. My plants have taken off still, as I have them adjusted to a little higher than what my T5HO lights were. 

Backing them off even slightly makes quite a difference to keep away algae and also gives you a little wiggle room.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

There are dimmers for these lights,but I'm not having new algae issues.I could just as easy pull a fixture or two if too much light was/is the problem.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> The plants are growing very well now(last couple months).I have been trying to elimnate BBA and I geuss I have made pretty good progress.
> I will tend to agree with jr on it is probly alot easier to control new growth then remove existing.But I think it is working although slowly.
> I will also agree that the end result of carbon dosing(lower nitrates) very well may be the result of plant uptake,this makes sense.But it is suspicous that with just the lack of the glut that the plants don't take up as much nitrate?
> I have also been targetting H2o2 to my overflows which are where the only remaining BBA is.


Agreed that BBA is a pain to control. Most algae fixing the problem will make the old growth vanish. This stuff just sort of stays around. H2O2 and glut targeting work well on it, just be careful not to burn plants (not an issue for your overflow). Letting it sit and dry above the water line in a WC works well too.

If carbon is your limiting factor (it is in most fish tanks) then you should see some increased uptake of all other nutrients when it is increased. Perhaps a better analogy is iron dosing in a tank where the macro is iron limited.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So just started with the metricide.It will take a while to tell if it is the same or even close to the excell,but I have actually noticed that now even the BBA on the overflows is diminishing!YEA!It isn't from changing from excell to metricide,as it is too early for there to be a difference,but I did have a very serious growth,so maybe it just took longer .Patience is key to success!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If it is on stuff like that, once it changes color and starts to die I try to remove manually. It will detach and fly in the tank eventually. I just like to get ahead of that.


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