# PH relationship and the KH on a chart



## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

There is a chart below... For every PH value there exists a relationship of CO2 level, and KH (calcium) values. This PH range covers 6 to 8 so acidic to alkalinity waters that are average to most aquariums. Now if you change anyone of those values you alter the location of the remaining values in the grid, by example change the CO2 value you change the KH, and PH relationship...etc.
One factor that has what seems an influence is general hardness (GH) for a high gh (hard) water tends to be alkalin, while low gh (soft) water tends to be acidic. But it does not change PH factors so it has no influence on the chart beyond what is a tendency... but I will make mention of it later.
These factors play a bigger rule in planted aquarium where use of injected or diy CO2 is often employed. And sometimes finding the balance between PH, KH, and CO2 you have to adjust one or another. To adjust KH, or PH requires a chemical approach, while adjusting the CO2 only requires gassing out with water tubulance with use of air supply which lowers CO2 levels, and raises the PH levels and increases desolved oxygen.
There is a following that feel this is a relationship that has no more place in aquariums beyond planted aquarium because that topic mostly occures with use of words like injected CO2.
But here is a fact...the ph, kh, co2 relationship regardless of how each is aquired in the column is all cross related no matter how it got there. Since persons of planted aquarium can attest...airating the tank lowers CO2 it also raises the PH, and is common an expression it increases desolved oxygen...but all within limit, for we cannot oxygenate to the ph being 10 though we can inject CO2 below a ph of 6 all of which by the way is fatal to most fish and sure some species could survive those figures. Now not reaching for a chemical method to raise or lower this relationship something keeps it within limits that has no effect on anyone of these critical factors, and I believe it to be the GH factor, only because it shows a tendency to exist within certain parameters.

*c/p* I present this as a topic for open discussion not seeking a rage, just each to vent his or her belief on this subject to produce a general consinces meaning of this relationship of ph and all those other things it includes that we all share with our aquarium hobby. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Good post, just a few things to consider:

The pH-KH relationship isn't truly accurate as far as determining your exact CO2 concentration; KH, or alkalinity, is a measurement of not only carbon dioxide concentrations but also bicarbonate and carbonate molecules. pH is a measure of hydronium ion concentrations. Different factors including, as you have said, general hardness or GH, as well as phosphates (hence why most of the pH-controlling products, which are crap by the way, are called "phosphate buffers") can affect this relationship as well.

The best way to determine CO2 concentrations in your tank is a drop checker. And the best is a drop checker with an exactly measured 4dKH solution in it. Drop checkers are pretty cheap too; I got mine and solution for $13 at my old LFS.

Aeration is one way to help introduce CO2 into your aquarium, but natural gas exchange will only bring your CO2 concentrations to 5 ppm or so, which is still low as far as ideal CO2 concentrations for planted tanks. Hence why so many "high tech" tanks use pressurized or yeast-fermented CO2 injection; to artificially boost the levels of CO2 in the tank up to around 25-30 ppm. It's an expensive method compared to aeration, to be sure, but I can guarantee you your plants will thank you if you start injecting CO2. Your creatures, however, might not. So watch out!

These are based on some sources I've found online which I don't have handy here at work, but I'll post them when I get home, for reading material.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Gismo, my application of this realationship is not to know where the CO2 levels are (as you said it's only an approximate). But I look at the data as a relationship that can be altered for a helpful use towards the objective a balanced tank (nitrogen cycle in balance with stable ph)
By example airating a column of water regardless if it has plants or not it has a ph factor, within limits of its buffer and the ph can be altered by airating the tank with a stone...this to aggitate the water and out gas CO2, but equally you could lower the ph by adding CO2 into the water column. 
Ph is critical to fish health, yet it is the KH and CO2 that seem to form the ph reading, and any method to offer control without adding some chemical product to the water column is to my mind important, and why I seek to have important supported information and not the view of just another opinion...opinions I can find anywhere on the Internet I came here to learn. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I agree with your original intent; I believe the pH-KH-CO2 relationship is a great thing to research and learn about. I'm an engineer by trade, so my purpose both in the workplace and in my hobbying is to not only learn the mechanics and forces at work behind the scenes, but, more importantly, to learn how to take those tools and implement them.

To this end, I believe the pH-KH-CO2 relationship has been used as a slash-and-burn fix to a problem that is most easily solved by a drop checker. The pH-KH-CO2 relationship has been used traditionally by planted tank owners who wanted to dose the correct amount of CO2 into the tank to provide better growing conditions for their plants. Drop checkers, IMO, are a much better way to go about things in this respect.

Bubblers, in a planted tank, are beneficial when you don't have injected CO2, but are actually detrimental if you do. Surface agitation and aeration from bubbles promotes better gas exchange, whereby CO2 is absorbed or gassed out of the water to try and maintain a natural equilibrium of around 5 ppm. For a planted tank with no CO2, this is good because the plants will try and drive down the concentration to lower than natural levels. In a CO2-injected tank, this is bad as the CO2 concentrations are elevated above natural levels and so additional surface agitation gasses out the tank.

In a non-planted tank, there's really no need to worry about CO2, therefore the pH-KH-CO2 relationship is usually overlooked; the oxygen concentration in the water is maintained naturally to support fish and other critters, and the CO2 concentration is independent, and is also never at a threatening level where it could cause anoxia.

You are right though - there are pH controllers out there for regulating the amount of CO2 that is dumped into the tank in order to maintain a pre-set pH. Without live plants though, this is a recipe for disaster, as injected CO2 will easily build up to fatal levels. And the attempt to mimic a pH controller is even more dangerous, due to the possibility of human negligence and/or error.

Sorry for the lecture, I'm just trying to think of practical applications so anybody reading this might know the why, as well as the what.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Actually I had hopes others would have voiced an opinion, but it seems clear that is not going to happen. I'm not an advocate of chemical use to control ph...infact I don't like to chase the ph for it's very illusive and is best achieve only with tank balance...and stable only till that balance tips ever so slightly. But I presented this because a moderator choose to say I was filled with improper information and sought to be enlightene. Thanks for your input. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Not a problem  and there are some very basic natural ways to affect the pH. For example, I've heard that cuttlebone, crushed coral, and/or baking soda can be used to drive KH up, but what gets me is that they also tend to drive the pH up as well. Peat moss does the exact opposite; it lowers KH and pH.

The mystery of why both shift at the same time eludes me, but I suspect it has something to do with their relationship.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Gizmo, at the bottom of my post is an attached chart of which we have been speaking, and if KH numbers go up...PH goes up. All of the calcuim...and limestone products do raise PH, and peatmoss is acidic so PH goes down. Some gravel substrates will raise PH while silcon type don't tend to alter the readings. Hope that helps. Larry


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*

I have done some in depth studies with peat moss and water chemistry. The same goes for other organic materials which add Tannins to the water or contain these complex organic compounds. Tannins actually complex with the divalent Ca++ and Mg++ ions which are water hardness and the stabilizing factor for Alkalinity (KH). This chelation holds the divalent ions from interaction with numerous anions which would join with them to form both soluble Bicarbonates and insoluble Carbonates.
One can test the hardness of water (was hard water) treated with peat moss and the drop titration shows the hardness to be significantly reduced or even removed. However, if one takes that same water and acidifies it and passes it through an atomic adsorption spectrophotometer, the level of Ca or Mg remains at the lever it was before passing it through the peat or treating it with peat tea. I have done this with a spectrum of concentrations. 

Peat works to reduce hardness and KH by removing Calcium from the equation. That messes with the CO2/KH/pH chart given by most all planted tank experts. 

One of the best absolute methods of regulation with this trio chart is using massive water changes on a 7 to 10 day routine and adding the appropriate amounts of Potassium, Nitrate and Phosphate at that water change. This way one starts regularly at a base state and the column of water doesn't have the chance to wander off the expected chemistry values. A pH controller for CO2 injection is often used for the best results. Good light balance is also necessary for every thing to work in concert to obtain the best growing plants free of algae and lots of flowers.

Charles H


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Good info Charles, thanks 

I learned something new!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks for trying to teach me something about this chart and hope you didn't waste too much time on it. You can use it if you like, but once you get some more experience and knowledge running planted tanks and dealing with injected tanks you'll realize how much use it does/does not have. Go to plantedtank.net and read.

The chart has very little real use in either a planted or non-planted tank and the data can be mis-leading if you don't know what you're looking at. I have seen those that have believed that because they have a 6dkh and a ph of 6.8 that they believed they were already at the 30ppm optimum CO2 level for a planted tank. This is not true of course and with high light on a tank it would soon be overrun with algae and dead plants if you didn't inject CO2 to an actual 30ppm.

The chart also can't even show what levels of kh would be considered optimum levels in order to maintain a stable ph, despite being one of the more important things to think about in a tank.

Also, when referring to ph water is either acidic, neutral, or alkaline - not alkalinity. Alkalinity refers to the carbonate hardness or kh. If you are really using this chart as a tool to gain a balanced tank....what numbers are you shooting for? Just something in the green? What do you suggest to get to green if the water you have is way off or in the yellow region?


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*

Great response. The chart is dependent on active Divalent Cations, Ca++ and Mg++ being present to stabilize the Alkalinity. Without the hardness, the chart doesn't really work. Tannins and other organic molecules remove the activity of the Cations. Water chemistry and the aquarists adding various compounds to the water can cause wild changes to the balance.

Change as much water as often as you can!

Charles H


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't disagree.

My point was that you can't just throw this chart up and say, "here, use this to get to a "balanced" tank." Although these are some of the factors, these items are far from a balanced tank. I'm more interested to hear from the OP how he thinks you actually "use" it. It can be a ref point for some and I can see that, but making decisions based off of anything you can glean from it is just useless or pointless. Most people have the water they have and if you look at this chart and try to alter your water chemistry based off of reading this, this is where most aquarists get into trouble and end up potentially killing their fish. The chart is not a good source of info for anything IMO, and only serves to confuse.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

I do use the chart to reference a starting point for this discussion, and don't mean to suggest it has solid data that one can say it means exact. When working with water there are other factors (temperature, type of testing etc..) that also become factors to the final result...so it the chart is not the final word.
The chart is most often applied to planted tank use, but for this discussion it was not being offered for that purpose. I was using only the merits of pick one KH, CO2, or Ph as a starting point to evaluate your water...and did select the ph because the member was on that topic, and I did offer the suggestion to use air stone to alter ph by out gassing CO2. 
I don't like or advocate use of chemical products for to alter ph because it throws the system into an unstable condition that can kill fish, but I do agree with use of crushed coral, some gravels, driftwood, tannis, and peat to alter ph in a more natural manor. I'm one of those that like activated carbon, and loved using in its day the Diatom filter.
I have not been active in fish aquarium since the diviorce when I lost all the tanks and fish to my former wife...it really takes the spirit away with the loss. and that was 1977 I have been catching up for two months, but don't consider myself up to speed yet.
I'm here to learn and share what could be helpful suggestions or concepts and I offer them without condition, but I don't feel comfortable with those in the know hitting its members with a club when they stray into a gray area, for very often that person may not know better, may have miss-understood the material, or didn't express it properly. 
Your service as moderator you offer is free, or I couldn't afford to be here, and there are persons with whom reason is not possible, but I have never seen anyone accomplish an understanding when getting hot on the topic or making challange of ones knowledge is greater than another persons...it drives people away, both the person of conflict and sometimes onlookers. ...I drifted off subject, and said what I felt is important. Larry


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If using a bubbler alters ph it would be so slight I would be surprised that it would be detectable with the testing kits most use. The bubbler causes surface disturbance and air exchange.....in that same air is CO2 and O2 - not just O2. So while the bubbler may cause it to give up some CO2, it also causes it to take some in. Water will reach an equilibrium point shortly after it comes out of the tap where it can have a good amount of CO2, but is usually equalized within 24hrs. This is the reason why when testing for true ph of your water you should take a 2nd sample of water that has been left out for 24hrs or so. this gives time for excess CO2 to gas out. Once that occurs the CO2 does not find its way back in there to the level it was originally at.

A bubbler does however work really well for an injected tank and WILL alter the ph in that type of tank. It more correctly will tend to return the tank to the ph it was before injection. 

If I hurt your feelings in your original post about this chart when I said it was useless then, can't really help that. Your opinion was that it was something useful, I disagreed. That is all there was to it. We are all here to learn. I usually do not like it when new users are potentially provided confusing info, or info that is not really needed to run a basic tank. I will agree that ph, kh are things to know, but that is as far as I would go in anything you are trying to say. The chart tries to say something a little more than that, as as I said above it has very little use in a planted or non-planted tank.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

'If i 'hurt' your feelings when I said it was
'useless' 

CAN'T HELP THAT REALLY?

I can be very blunt but i truly hope i don't hurt a posters feelings even if I thought something was useless but the ' can't help that really' IMP stinks . I'm thankful that iv'e never come across anyone in 'real life'.......cold.((


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

goldie said:


> the ' can't help that really' IMP stinks


One of the things you'll learn about Ben, as I have, is that he's blunt to the point of abrasiveness. However, he's rarely if ever incorrect about something.

It's just something you have to learn to love about him


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks for the laugh Gismo ,I appreciate a good sense of humour


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*

Using a bubbler alters pH. My tap water comes out at a pH around 10. The water department reports the outgoing water pH at 10.2. It doesn't always stay that way when it reaches my home but close. I change about 150 gallons of tank water each week. I fill a 55 gallon drum and dechlorinate it and adjust the temperature. I measure pH at this point as well as the effectiveness of my attempt to dechlorinate the water(Chlorine test with OTO). The pH varies from 9.7 to 10.0 measured with a standardized pH meter and single junction pH probe. I have an air line which reaches to the bottom of the drum and inject air into the 50 gallons of tap water at a rate fast enough to turn the water over several times a minute. Over 12 to 16 hours the pH of the water in the drum drops from its 9.7 value to 8.0 or less. Given two days the pH value is near seven. The only thing that gets added to the water is bubbled air.

This isn't magic, it's Chemistry. 

Charles H





jrman83 said:


> If using a bubbler alters ph it would be so slight I would be surprised that it would be detectable with the testing kits most use. The bubbler causes surface disturbance and air exchange.....in that same air is CO2 and O2 - not just O2. So while the bubbler may cause it to give up some CO2, it also causes it to take some in. Water will reach an equilibrium point shortly after it comes out of the tap where it can have a good amount of CO2, but is usually equalized within 24hrs. This is the reason why when testing for true ph of your water you should take a 2nd sample of water that has been left out for 24hrs or so. this gives time for excess CO2 to gas out. Once that occurs the CO2 does not find its way back in there to the level it was originally at.
> 
> A bubbler does however work really well for an injected tank and WILL alter the ph in that type of tank. It more correctly will tend to return the tank to the ph it was before injection.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Charles knows his stuff.I'm fortunate to have read some previous post by him and purchased a chlorine test(kit) from him.A little reassurance to any of the variables involved with the water we use is a great help.Most just de-chlorinate and assume it's all good(you might be suprised,or reassured).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*



inkmaker said:


> Using a bubbler alters pH. My tap water comes out at a pH around 10. The water department reports the outgoing water pH at 10.2. It doesn't always stay that way when it reaches my home but close. I change about 150 gallons of tank water each week. I fill a 55 gallon drum and dechlorinate it and adjust the temperature. I measure pH at this point as well as the effectiveness of my attempt to dechlorinate the water(Chlorine test with OTO). The pH varies from 9.7 to 10.0 measured with a standardized pH meter and single junction pH probe. I have an air line which reaches to the bottom of the drum and inject air into the 50 gallons of tap water at a rate fast enough to turn the water over several times a minute. Over 12 to 16 hours the pH of the water in the drum drops from its 9.7 value to 8.0 or less. Given two days the pH value is near seven. The only thing that gets added to the water is bubbled air.
> 
> This isn't magic, it's Chemistry.
> 
> Charles H


I think I said the same thing. I said that putting water out, a sample - not 55g, for 24hrs will yield the true ph of what your tap water is. I know that what you said is true and nothing I posted is against that. 

However, as you said in 2 days the water has reached it's equilibrium point where the ph is stable and NEVER will it again gain this CO2 back unless injected into the water. So from that standpoint and assuming we are beyond a couple of days of your new water being in your aquarium...the bubbler does very little if any to change the ph. A CO2 injected tank being the exception. 

Unless we were just talking about water that is stored after coming straight from a tap and not what is currently in your aquarium? And it doesn't have to be a bubbler...all that is required is movement. Most people place small powerheads in their stored water just for that reason. If this is all we were talking about, I completely agree with a bubbler altering ph.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*



jrman83 said:


> I think I said the same thing. I said that putting water out, a sample - not 55g, for 24hrs will yield the true ph of what your tap water is. I know that what you said is true and nothing I posted is against that.
> 
> However, as you said in 2 days the water has reached it's equilibrium point where the ph is stable and NEVER will it again gain this CO2 back unless injected into the water. So from that standpoint and assuming we are beyond a couple of days of your new water being in your aquarium...the bubbler does very little if any to change the ph. A CO2 injected tank being the exception.
> 
> Unless we were just talking about water that is stored after coming straight from a tap and not what is currently in your aquarium? And it doesn't have to be a bubbler...all that is required is movement. Most people place small powerheads in their stored water just for that reason. If this is all we were talking about, I completely agree with a bubbler altering ph.


I think you may be missing the Chemistry here. The CO2 from the air acts as an acid as it dissolves into the water. H2CO3. If one bubbles CO2 into pure water, the pH drops to 6.3 @ 78F as the Carbon Dioxide dissolves to saturation. That is about 0.14%, less than a gram in 100 grams of water. People who use pure RO water are subject to that. 

Hard water contain Calcium and Magnesium ions due to dissolved CO2. Calcium Carbonate is virtually insoluble in water(0.0013 grams per 100 grams of water) Add enough CO2 to the mix and one can get 16 grams of Calcium Bicarbonate ( Ca(HCO3)2 ) to dissolve in 100 ml of water. 
The water department adds Sodium Hydroxide to adjust pH up. This stabilizes the Chloramine and prevents corrosion in the pipes caring the water through our city system. The water comes to my house at pH 10.2. I fill up my 55 gallon drum and turn on the air. Soon the pH starts to drop. The water is taking on CO2.
The top of the Alkalinity is the Sodium Hydroxide added by the water department. The Hydroxide ions (as NaOH & Ca(OH)2 ) go first toward neutrality. They start at pH 10+. They are becoming BiCarbonates. Just how far the pH will drop depends on the amount of Calcium and Magnesium present in the water (how hard it is). There is only so much CO2 in the air. 
pH 6.3 is saturation of CO2 at 78 F. One needs more than just Air to get that.

Once one gets below pH 7 there is little buffering left and other compounds take over and can drive the pH of the tank water to values lethal to the fish and plants. That is why changing water often is important. It gets the pH back up where it can be a buffer.

So I'm giving just a little more credibility to the chart. I don't use it. I don't use CO2 tanks either.

Charles H


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

so if I understand you correctly Charles, the addition of air (with co2 present at normal values)is the factor that reduces your pH.Just letting your water "set"(without adding air) would not reduce the pH the same? I appreciate the info you provide, and have probably become more familiar with some of the knowledge you posses by originally checking your "profile"(retired chemist)and asking several questions to you in email communications that I feel confident you answered correctly.To continue the "bubbler" will not have the same effect on water that has a lower original pH/or a value in aquaria that is "stable".Also currious in relations pH 10 is "pretty high", what is your tap kh/gh and how do those shift with "air treatment"? Thanks ,Tom.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*



inkmaker said:


> I think you may be missing the Chemistry here. The CO2 from the air acts as an acid as it dissolves into the water. H2CO3. If one bubbles CO2 into pure water, the pH drops to 6.3 @ 78F as the Carbon Dioxide dissolves to saturation. That is about 0.14%, less than a gram in 100 grams of water. People who use pure RO water are subject to that.


This part is very well known by anyone who uses CO2.



inkmaker said:


> Hard water contain Calcium and Magnesium ions due to dissolved CO2. Calcium Carbonate is virtually insoluble in water(0.0013 grams per 100 grams of water) Add enough CO2 to the mix and one can get 16 grams of Calcium Bicarbonate ( Ca(HCO3)2 ) to dissolve in 100 ml of water.
> The water department adds Sodium Hydroxide to adjust pH up. This stabilizes the Chloramine and prevents corrosion in the pipes caring the water through our city system. The water comes to my house at pH 10.2. I fill up my 55 gallon drum and turn on the air. Soon the pH starts to drop. The water is taking on CO2.
> The top of the Alkalinity is the Sodium Hydroxide added by the water department. The Hydroxide ions (as NaOH & Ca(OH)2 ) go first toward neutrality. They start at pH 10+. They are becoming BiCarbonates. Just how far the pH will drop depends on the amount of Calcium and Magnesium present in the water (how hard it is). There is only so much CO2 in the air.
> pH 6.3 is saturation of CO2 at 78 F. One needs more than just Air to get that.
> ...


I'm not missing the chemistry. I think you're missing the point. It doesn't take a bubbler in your water. All it takes is surface movement that can be provided by numerous sources...for instance a powerhead, your filter, etc.

You stated that a bubbler does alter ph.....the example you gave was in your stored water, in which that case I would agree. I merely stated that in an aquarium....all of that doesn't occur unless it is just like your storage tank and just came from your tap without aging the water. Within a day or so of surface movement created from whatever is moving water in the aquarium, not just a bubbler, the phenomenom doesn't occur anymore and therefore does not alter the ph from there on - it equalizes. Ph can continue to move due to lack of buffers, but this is not due to the use of a bubbler or anything moving the water.

I never said the chart was wrong. I said it was useless.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: pH relationship and the KH on a chart*

You are correct that any type of current mover will work to get the air into the water. My problem is temperature. The more one moves the water the more the motor heats up the water. A bubbler in the water doesn't heat the water - no motor.

"You stated that a bubbler does alter ph" no, I said "I said a bubbler does alter *pH*."

Given an active tank well stocked with fish and usual simple husbandry and feeding, the pH of the tank water will continue to drift down. CO2 can't take it below pH 6.2 or 6.3. A deep water change is the only thing that can restore the water to the beginning chemistry.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> so if I understand you correctly Charles, the addition of air (with co2 present at normal values)is the factor that reduces your pH.Just letting your water "set"(without adding air) would not reduce the pH the same? I appreciate the info you provide, and have probably become more familiar with some of the knowledge you posses by originally checking your "profile"(retired chemist)and asking several questions to you in email communications that I feel confident you answered correctly.To continue the "bubbler" will not have the same effect on water that has a lower original pH/or a value in aquaria that is "stable".Also currious in relations pH 10 is "pretty high", what is your tap kh/gh and how do those shift with "air treatment"? Thanks ,Tom.


Tom,
Just letting the water set takes too long. The surface needs to move. The aeration I speak of is just to expose more surface area to the air. Seldom does one find adding Air to a tank raise the pH. There are only a few things, compounds, gases like H2S - that aeration will affect. CO2 injections take the pH down to a little higher than pH 6.

As far as Alkalinity of my water is concerned, it doesn't stay the same, The pH is always above 10. The Carbonate Hardness is 125 to 175 ppm. The TDS has been creeping up all year long due to the lack of rain in the midwest. It is now a little less than 300 ppm.

There are times I need to use the water right away. I can't wait for nature to take its course, I add Hydrochloric Acid to titrate down the pH to around pH 8 or less and use the water. 

Charles H


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

jrman, Hurt me...ha you flatter yourself, for it was just setting up future encounters and will keep in mind your interest and intents. I seek not to cut off the limb on which I stand, for learning is a curve I'm all to familar with, and once my lab is setup I can conduct my own research and won't need to ask question as I do now...but I don't forget the answers. Kind regards Larry


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