# pH Fluctuation in Tank- HELP!



## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

OK, I know there's a lot of information about pH fluctuations throughout the day, but the pH in my tank rises several points every single day, and never goes back down no matter what time of day I test. 

I have a 5 gallon tank with one betta in it, flourescent lighting that is kept on for 12 hours a day, and no live plants. I'm also using regular gravel substrate. Because it's a new tank, I test everything daily. Normally, the pH of the tank is around 7.5 (blue in the API liquid test kit). Four days ago, it tested at 7.3. It wasn't much of a change, so I didn't think much about it. 

The next day, it was 7.0. The day after, 6.8. I got worried at this point, and tested it again at a later time of day to see if maybe it was just shifting around depending on the lighting. It was the same in the evening as it was in the morning. Yesterday, it was 6.5. I did a 10% water change, and when I tested the new water it had a pH of 7.6. I thought that adding that would stablize the pH of the tank, but today it was 6.0...

HELP! The pH just keeps falling, at least 2 points per day, and I don't know what to do about it! Should I put something into the tank to help stablize it? I don't want to use any chemicals, because that might cause too much of a change. But should I add something else? Is it nothing to worry about? Should I buy another test kit? The strips are showing that pH and alkalinity are consistently the same, and so is hardness. That's why I was wondering about the accuracy of the liquid test.... Is this normal in a cycling tank? I've been doing research online, and nobody else seems to have this problem....

UPDATE:

I just tested it again, and I think the air stone is working! It's been running for a while now, and the pH has gone up about two points! I'm so relieved! Though Braveheart is sort of irritated that I keep testing the water and messing with his tank.  

*Thank you all so much!* You all have no idea how much your advice has helped, and how much calmer I feel now! lol Though I still might get the java fern, as extra protection against future pH fluctuations. I might even gradually transition to all-live plants! Though only after I know I can keep the fern alive. Again, thanks to everyone who gave me advice! I hope I can apply your ideas in the right way!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

The only reason I can think of that would cause declining pH in your setup is elevated CO2 concentrations from your fish breathing. If that's the case, try sticking some low-maintenance plants like java fern in the tank and see if they can help balance out the pH by consuming the CO2 and generating oxygen. Another way would be to put a bubbler in the tank to promote aeration and gas exchange at the surface, though the betta will not like the current. Another way to prevent the pH from declining too quickly is to add some alkaline buffering to your water. A mesh bag of peat moss will help elevate the buffering capacity, and you can get peat moss from your local hardware store's gardening section.

Hope these help!


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> The only reason I can think of that would cause declining pH in your setup is elevated CO2 concentrations from your fish breathing. If that's the case, try sticking some low-maintenance plants like java fern in the tank and see if they can help balance out the pH by consuming the CO2 and generating oxygen. Another way would be to put a bubbler in the tank to promote aeration and gas exchange at the surface, though the betta will not like the current. Another way to prevent the pH from declining too quickly is to add some alkaline buffering to your water. A mesh bag of peat moss will help elevate the buffering capacity, and you can get peat moss from your local hardware store's gardening section.
> 
> Hope these help!


Hmm... Now that you mention it, it might be a buildup of CO2... I had an air pump going into the tank that activated one of those bubble decorations, but I had turned it off so it wouldn't disrupt his bubble nest... Coincidentally, I turned it off two days before I noticed the drop in pH! I'll turn it on now and test it in another hour or two. If that doesn't work, I'm going with the Java fern. Thanks so much!!!


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## cannonfish (May 22, 2011)

what that guy said I 2nd that.
What is the ph of your tap water?
Too many chems being added to your water to treat it can meen higher chance of ph swings
try not to over use chems and keep it natural as you can.
can you tell us what you do with your water chemistry from scratch pls?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Don't forget, bettas are tropical fish and like warm water. Consider an under-gravel heating pad or a small 10 Watt heater. Let us know how the bubbler does mitigating the pH drop.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

cannonfish said:


> what that guy said I 2nd that.
> What is the ph of your tap water?
> Too many chems being added to your water to treat it can meen higher chance of ph swings
> try not to over use chems and keep it natural as you can.
> can you tell us what you do with your water chemistry from scratch pls?


I only add NovAqua during regular water changes, as well as aquarium salt. I've added AmQuel twice before, and I did use a little bit of Betta Fix last week because of the stress of switching tanks.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Don't forget, bettas are tropical fish and like warm water. Consider an under-gravel heating pad or a small 10 Watt heater. Let us know how the bubbler does mitigating the pH drop.


OK, I will! I've got the air pump on, though I'm about to run to the store to get an airstone that won't make such large bubbles. Braveheart doesn't like that so much! I think the temperature should be fine. He has a heater that keeps the temp at a constant 78 degrees, and I always add new water slowly to allow the temperature to even out.

Thank you so much for the advice! I'll test in about an hour to give the tank time to settle, and then update.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

MissPisces said:


> I only add NovAqua during regular water changes, as well as aquarium salt. I've added AmQuel twice before, and I did use a little bit of Betta Fix last week because of the stress of switching tanks.


Why do you add aquarium salt? Really, the only thing you would want to add would be some tap water conditioner (like NovAqua).


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## RobertTheFish (May 30, 2011)

Can you post a pic of the whole setup? There may be something you're forgetting to mention because you've looked at it a thousand times and don't see it anymore. Happens to me all the time.

Another thought I had is whether you might have a solvent in there still from when you initially cleaned the tank? 

Agreeing with all of the above, try a plant and turn the bubbler back on.

Potted anubias are great for small tanks where you don't want to bother with substrate. I have to smaller tanks where I just leave the anubias in their pot and stick the pot in the gravel.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

RobertTheFish said:


> Potted anubias are great for small tanks where you don't want to bother with substrate. I have to smaller tanks where I just leave the anubias in their pot and stick the pot in the gravel.


Be careful of the rockwool they use around the roots of the potted plants though - rockwool is basically mineral-soaked fiberglass and as such the fibers can detach and float around the tank till they attach to your fish and can really mess them up.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Why do you add aquarium salt? Really, the only thing you would want to add would be some tap water conditioner (like NovAqua).


To keep the water conditioned. When I set up the tank, I used the full dosage, but when I change the water I only put in a couple of grains to offset the difference in the water. Will it hurt him? Oh, I hope not! >.<


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

MissPisces said:


> To keep the water conditioned. When I set up the tank, I used the full dosage, but when I change the water I only put in a couple of grains to offset the difference in the water. Will it hurt him? Oh, I hope not! >.<


It won't hurt him unless you overdose, but it looks like you've got nothing to worry about there. At the same time, you really don't need to dose it; salt helps rejuvenate gills, fins, and slime coats after an injury or sickness, but when a fish is healthy it really doesn't matter too much whether you add salt or not. By all means if you'd like to dose it solely because you have it and want to keep your fish happy then you may do it, but it really doesn't change anything whether you continue with it or stop, in my opinion.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> It won't hurt him unless you overdose, but it looks like you've got nothing to worry about there. At the same time, you really don't need to dose it; salt helps rejuvenate gills, fins, and slime coats after an injury or sickness, but when a fish is healthy it really doesn't matter too much whether you add salt or not. By all means if you'd like to dose it solely because you have it and want to keep your fish happy then you may do it, but it really doesn't change anything whether you continue with it or stop, in my opinion.


Whew! That's a relief... I tend to worry a lot about him, so when I think I'm doing somethign wrong I panic!


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

RobertTheFish said:


> Can you post a pic of the whole setup? There may be something you're forgetting to mention because you've looked at it a thousand times and don't see it anymore. Happens to me all the time.
> 
> Another thought I had is whether you might have a solvent in there still from when you initially cleaned the tank?
> 
> ...


OK, here's a picture. I hope it doesn't seem too crowded! And I'd never thought about the potted plant thing... That sounds like a good idea! 








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## cannonfish (May 22, 2011)

Your tank looks fab! The bubbles thing will probs raise your ph, like gtm2007 say. he knows what he's talking about.
live plants are your best bet for long term as they will do this job for you. I have java fern just like he recommended. I also have java moss its cool stuff as the fish move it about to make nests from one end of tank to the other. Down side it gets everywhere! lol


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## cannonfish (May 22, 2011)

are all those plants plastic then?


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

cannonfish said:


> Your tank looks fab! The bubbles thing will probs raise your ph, like gtm2007 say. he knows what he's talking about.
> live plants are your best bet for long term as they will do this job for you. I have java fern just like he recommended. I also have java moss its cool stuff as the fish move it about to make nests from one end of tank to the other. Down side it gets everywhere! lol


Thanks!  I'm seriously thinking about getting a Java fern along with the bubble decoration, but I really need to read up on plant care! I've never heart of java moss, though... I'll look into that, too. 

Oh, and to answer your other question: the short grass, the long kelp in the corner, and the reddish plants are soft rubbery plastic. All the others are silk. I'm really paranoid about him tearing his fins, so I actually spent several minutes in the store just feeling all the plants! The clerk looked at me like I was a nut...


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## cannonfish (May 22, 2011)

lol! dont blame you. java fern needs no care that I can tell and speads out slowly new small leafs come up next to the planted ones, sometimes they sendout a root with a little leaf growing out and that latches into the gravel nearbye. Very hardy plant and you can easily take some root with leaf on and plant that else where in tank. The long roots anchor it down well. It does grow slow prob 4-6 months to get X2 size.
I have black plastic coated gravel made by marina for the same reason as I dint want my fish getting hurt.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

cannonfish said:


> lol! dont blame you. java fern needs no care that I can tell and speads out slowly new small leafs come up next to the planted ones, sometimes they sendout a root with a little leaf growing out and that latches into the gravel nearbye. Very hardy plant and you can easily take some root with leaf on and plant that else where in tank. The long roots anchor it down well. It does grow slow prob 4-6 months to get X2 size.
> I have black plastic coated gravel made by marina for the same reason as I dint want my fish getting hurt.


That's good to know! It looks like I'll be getting one anyway, because I really want the pH to even out soon without having to use pH Up... Besides, Braveheart LOVES plants. He'll probably be elated to get a new one! When we put the new fake plants into his tank, he spent two days just swimming among them and nipping at them. He gets mad if I move them around at all!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Braveheart, nice! Sounds like a prize fighter.

Plants require very little, especially java moss and fern, really they just need dirty gravel from fish poop and extra food, CO2 from fish breathing and the air above the tank, and light from the fluorescent fixture. Everything else save maybe a liquid plant food or some root fertilization tabs they leech out of the water. In return, they provide a more natural environment for your fish, help clarify the water, generate oxygen, and look really pretty.

And DON'T use pH Up or any other phosphate buffer - it does more harm than the pH shift itself.


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## RobertTheFish (May 30, 2011)

What a weird problem you have! I've been racking my brain and I keep coming up with possibilities that would make your water more alkaline, not more acidic! 

I put some tumbled marble stones in my tank and that made my water slowly more alkaline until I wised up and took them out.

In the short term you may want to look at alternative water sources for your water changes. Maybe some well water at your next WC would even it out for you?

I'm just throwing out random ideas at this point.

What is the composition of your substrate? Do you have any access to a chem lab? I notice 2 types of rock, one florescent and one more natural. If you could scratch them into a powder, you could probably analyze them to see if they are acidic.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Braveheart, nice! Sounds like a prize fighter.
> 
> Plants require very little, especially java moss and fern, really they just need dirty gravel from fish poop and extra food, CO2 from fish breathing and the air above the tank, and light from the fluorescent fixture. Everything else save maybe a liquid plant food or some root fertilization tabs they leech out of the water. In return, they provide a more natural environment for your fish, help clarify the water, generate oxygen, and look really pretty.
> 
> And DON'T use pH Up or any other phosphate buffer - it does more harm than the pH shift itself.


OK, I'll remember that. Thanks! I just read through some other threads and some informational articles, and I guess live plant keeping isn't as daunting as I thought it would be. I might start shifting to all live plants, if the java fern does well! Anything to avoid using pH Up or Down... I've heard too many horror stories involving those products, and a lot of warnings, including the one you just gave me!

And yeah, he's a strong one! I don't let him fight, of course, and he doesn't even have any tank mates, but he seems really brave. We named him that initially because he just wanted freedom at first! We could just hear him in there; "Freeeeedooooommmm!" as he tried to swim out of his cup while we were acclimating him. Like William Wallace or something! As soon as we brought him home, he did the normal thing and hid... for all of two seconds! After that, he came right up to us! He even goes right up to strangers, but he has a special place in his heart for those of us who feed him.  

Sorry, I tend to ramble...


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

RobertTheFish said:


> What a weird problem you have! I've been racking my brain and I keep coming up with possibilities that would make your water more alkaline, not more acidic!
> 
> I put some tumbled marble stones in my tank and that made my water slowly more alkaline until I wised up and took them out.
> 
> ...


The substrate is mostly natural rock with some painted purple rock on top (that was what was in his 1.5 gallon tank). There aren't any chem labs around that would test the gravel, I don't think. But I'll try grinding it to see if I can test it that way. As for the water, I'm not sure if that would be it. The tap water has a pH of 7.5-ish, and before we moved him, his 1.5 gallon tank had that same pH. It's puzzling... I'm really new to the world of water chemistry. I learn a lot every day, and still there's more to learn!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

An interesting thing you might want to do to test your water's true pH is to fill a bucket, even a small one, and let it sit for a day or two. You'll notice the pH will drop naturally. I can't remember the specifics of why, but I seem to recall it has something to do with the CO2/O2 concentrations coming into equilibrium with those in the air through gas exchange.

If you bought your gravel from the pet store and washed it before you put it in the tank then it should be inert, however some particulates from the rocks grinding on one another in the bag might have entered your water and are messing with your alkaline buffering capacity (KH). However, they would only elevate the KH, and an elevated KH serves to prevent pH swings from happening as fast.

The hardest thing to do with plant growing, in my opinion, is trim them. I've gotten to the point that I'm pulling handfuls of plant growth out of my tank once a week during my water changes.


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## ReStart (Jan 3, 2011)

MissPisces said:


> I only add NovAqua during regular water changes, as well as aquarium salt. I've added AmQuel twice before, and I did use a little bit of Betta Fix last week because of the stress of switching tanks.


Be careful about how much salt you add. Most of us freshwater folk do not have hydgrometers (sp) to determine scecific gravity (density, salt concentration) of the water. Really, only the Saltwater fish folk need that. However, it may be easy to over add salt during wc's. Salt does not evaporate from the water so any minor increase will increase the concentration over time.

Salt is neutral pH so tends to move the pH closer to 7.0 regardless of the current pH, to a small degree. What has puzzled me is is the drastic change you experienced during a wc (the one where you went from about 6.5 to 7.6) It would seem that your replacement water must have been about 9.0 to create that much of a change.

I am one who questions the result when the result is too much out of expected range. I'd take some of that water to a good LFS and ask them for a pH test. I might also take some to a buddy and ask him to test it as well. A second pair of eyes on that color strip often helps. I usually ask my wife, "What color does that tube match most closely to you?". Sometimes we get in a small argument, "No! It's closer to 40ppm not 20ppm!" lol.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

ReStart said:


> Be careful about how much salt you add. Most of us freshwater folk do not have hydgrometers (sp) to determine scecific gravity (density, salt concentration) of the water. Really, only the Saltwater fish folk need that. However, it may be easy to over add salt during wc's. Salt does not evaporate from the water so any minor increase will increase the concentration over time.
> 
> Salt is neutral pH so tends to move the pH closer to 7.0 regardless of the current pH, to a small degree. What has puzzled me is is the drastic change you experienced during a wc (the one where you went from about 6.5 to 7.6) It would seem that your replacement water must have been about 9.0 to create that much of a change.
> 
> I am one who questions the result when the result is too much out of expected range. I'd take some of that water to a good LFS and ask them for a pH test. I might also take some to a buddy and ask him to test it as well. A second pair of eyes on that color strip often helps. I usually ask my wife, "What color does that tube match most closely to you?". Sometimes we get in a small argument, "No! It's closer to 40ppm not 20ppm!" lol.


Sorry, I don't think I wrote that very clearly... I meant that the new water, from the tap, has a pH of about 6.5. After I let it sit for a day, its pH goes up to 7.6. I thought that adding the tap water with a pH of 7.6 would raise the pH at least a little, but it didn't do anything. That's what's puzzling me... The water changed so steadily, and it didn't go back up even when I added water with a higher pH. 

Though... I wonder, could a sponge cause a drop in pH? The air stone has been in the tank for over 12 hours, but there hasn't been much change except for that .2 point rise after the first hour... See, to soften the flow of water from the filter, we put a new sponge over it. It's a brand new sponge, but we rinsed it in tap water and then wrung it out with water from his tank before putting it in. Could the sponge be causing this?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If your tap water ph goes up after letting it sit for a day, then do that before your water changes - if it concerns you. Sounds like CO2 in the water gasses out over a period of time, which would make the ph go up. CO2 in water will drive down the natural ph of the water. A bubbler in the tank will cause any CO2 gas out of the tank by creating surface disturbance. 

You've seen that your ph changes to 6.5 over a period of time without entering the tank and now you should just be concerned when it is not within a few decimal points of that value. Keeping the bubbler in there should force that to happen sooner and maintain it, but personally I don't think you need one, per se.

The gravel you use, was it sold in your local fish store or is that something you collected on your own? If it came from a fish store I wouldn't be too concerned. If you collected it yourself, some natural rock can create ph issues. You can test it.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> The gravel you use, was it sold in your local fish store or is that something you collected on your own? If it came from a fish store I wouldn't be too concerned. If you collected it yourself, some natural rock can create ph issues. You can test it.


It's store-bought, and I rinsed it thoroughly before putting it into the tank. I think I might test it just to be sure, though.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

Update:

I do have one more question (like you guys need to be bothered with any more of my questions!). A few days ago, actually the day after I posted this thread, I went out and bought a full-spectrum UV plant light and an amazon sword plant. I had intended to get a java fern, but no place had any healthy ones, and I didn't want to wait too long to stablize the pH. 

Anyway, the plant's doing well! It was a little yellow, but it's getting greener every day. The pH has finally started to go up again, too! It was back at 7.0 today! I was so happy! But I was wondering... Having the plant and air stone in there... Will it raise the pH too much? Am I just getting the opposite problem from my original problem, or will the plant and air stone keep the pH stable once it gets to a certain level? Should I take out the air stone, or will it not hurt to have it in there? (Braveheart sort of likes it) Just wondering...


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