# ph importance and cloudy water



## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi . i have a question about ph . is their a happy medium for ph level that is compadible with all fresh water animals . fish and invertibrates? My shrimp are doing good but snails die within hours of acclimation. i use nuetral regulator and Prime in the water along with. niteout bacteria additive . water checks out 0 for nitrates and almost 0 for amonia . altho the water could bemore clear . i use tap treated with prime and 7.0


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## Brian757 (Sep 24, 2012)

Technically 7.0-7.2 is a universal neutral.
But you could go anywhere between 6.8 - 7.4 with certain groups. But if you were to keep some breeds of angelfish, which like lower pH(6.5-6.8), and Discus, which likes 7.8 pH, there really isn't a "happy medium". Ya dig?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Discus likes lower ph also. You shouldn't need to use a ph regulator as it can cause fluctuations that can be more dangerous than the water ph. Most fish and critters if acclimated right will do fine in your water unless you have some heavy metals that the prime can't remove.


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## Brian757 (Sep 24, 2012)

@Susan: You have good points. The discus in my LPS require high pH, I dont know much about them but I do know their fragile. 

@tropicoolfish: Also, pH regulators are only a temporary fix. They are actually more dangerous than just solving the problem because once the chemical is neutralized, the pH could spike again and it would be more dramatic and could harm your fish.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Brian, Ive never heard any discus taking high ph. Most breeders use RO water for them. 

Ph adjusters is playing with fire. There is always a chance of a crash and killing everything in your tank within hours.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

It's all a simple matter of evolution. That's something a lot of hobbyists don't seem to get their heads around. There is no real middle ground on pH because pH is a human made measure. For a blackwater cichlid from Brazil or Congo, normal can be pH 5.5. For a Lake Malawi cichlid, normal is pH 8.0. Everything depends on how long long their environment has been stable at whatever extreme it is at. If the fish have been there long enough, and if there has been there long enough, then there will have been adaptation to the conditions. Eggs will have adapted, and often the kidneys will need certain levels of hardness to function smoothly. pH reflects hardness, even if it doesn't measure it, and so it is useful. It's easier to measure, so we go with it.
Adding chemicals, reducers etc changes the reading, but it doesn't change the essential - the water's mineral content. It's a dangerous waste of time that can harm the fish.
Discus, by the way, are a blackwater cichlid that can be found at pH 4.5 in the wild. pH 7.8 is way off for them - even for captive bred ones. You really should stay under pH 7.0.

Really, and I sound like a loop, you have to research fish by fish. There are no breeds of fish, just species and domestic forms. We might argue that goldfish qualify as breeds since we've modified them for hundreds of years, but most fish species are tens of thousands of years old and are finely tuned to the environments that made them. It matters because if we think of fish species as we think of dog breeds, we miss that breeds can be kept in the same basic conditions no matter what. They are the same thing in different forms. Species are much more complex and have to be learned about individually. 

To say we keep 'fish' is like saying we keep 'mammals'. it's going to matter if my mammal pets are dogs, wolves, coyotes, cats, tigers, llamas, polar bears or hippos... And yet, we think of fish as 'just fish'. Hippos and gerbils are not breeds of mammals.

The fish that do best in tanks come from unstable environments that mix around a lot - usually coastal with minerals in the water, temperature fluctuations and rainy/dry seasons. Water evaporate, minerals don't, so pH will shift over the year in such a place and the fish are adapted to go with the flow. The 'easy' fish of the hobby fit there.

If you are looking for a perfect pH, you are missing a point about diversity. If the planet were the same everywhere, such a thing would exist, but it is a fascinatingly weird place with many many different environments. Each shapes its fish.

Brian, if you have read this far, there is a term you use that I don't understand. What does "LPS" stand for?


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks guys . soooo . should i not use the 7.0 nuetralizer and just use the
prime to get rid of the chlorien? Also. i always now and in the past have had problems 
keeping snails alive . not that they are exciteing as they don't move verry quickly lol . 
shrimp i have no issues as the seem to take care of them selfs . *pc


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

yes stop using buffers(man made chemicals). There are other options;if you are interested ask "what can I do with my water" in a thread and many experienced"keepers" will probably offer their solutions.
Nav;I think LPS is local pet store/we are all more used to LFS local fish store as many of us cringe at the thought of buying fish from pet stores instead of our chosen fish supplier. 
As for cloudy water many here have claimed that Seachem Purigen helps with that issue,although cloudiness usaully takes care of its self if you carry out regular water changes.I swear by purigen for its nitrAte removal qualities(slow acting as it is/fast changes are never good anyways) even though I change water more than most.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Exactly - treat for chloramines and leave it at that.
You might want to learn your water hardness if snails keep dying. I wish I had that problem, as I hate snails. Oftentimes in soft water they are vulnerable, and knowledge of your water can help you choose and keep fish more effectively.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

X2 on that. Figure out why your snails die within two days, publish a book, retire rich. Darn snails.... :shakesfistviolently:


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## Brian757 (Sep 24, 2012)

majerah1 said:


> Brian, Ive never heard any discus taking high ph. Most breeders use RO water for them.
> 
> Ph adjusters is playing with fire. There is always a chance of a crash and killing everything in your tank within hours.


It wouldn't be the first time my local pet store was wrong! I honestly know nothing about them so I cannot argue. Just heresay :/
And +1 on what I said and you clarified on the pH regulators. They are dangerous.



navigator black said:


> Brian, if you have read this far, there is a term you use that I don't understand. What does "LPS" stand for?


Sorry for the late reply. It stands for "Local Pet Store."


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Acid and Alkaline buffers, if used correctly, can control ph values effectively. The problem is most people don't understand how the water buffers changes and braces against them to hold your ph steady. It is allowed to fluctuate, like what occurs in planted tanks, but the buffering moves the ph back to where it started.

When you read about the ph values that certain fish need the value should be the value of the water they are in naturally. What that literature doesn't usually tell you is that the majority of fish out there can adjust to other values if acclimated properly.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree with jrman, but there is an observation I will add. If you read your fish is from hard alkaline water, that must be respected. A hardwater fish has specific adaptations in its kidneys and skin that allow it to flourish in its environment. Most softwater fish will look and live well in hard water, but it is much harder to go in the opposite direction without problems. Softwater fish can usually go into hardwater, but going the other way is inviting Ich, velvet and infections.

If you want to breed fish, all bets are off. Soft water eggs are usually highly adapted, and they give the old line about the fish just being the egg's way of making more eggs a lot of credibility. For breeding, you need to respect whatever water hardness the fish comes from. There are many generalist fish, but very few generalist eggs.


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

The tank has fullycycled now the water is super clear. I'm woundering if i can go carbonless but hay if its helping the water look clear then no harm done. Also has anyone had issues with black skirt tetras . mine thinks its a pitbull . lol . also soooooooo glad i bought ghost shrimp they help so much to clean up the tank .


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

[url=http://www.aquariumforum.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=15314&ppuser=27275][/URL]


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## jvance (Oct 18, 2012)

To add to this discussion and to add my own questions I would like to ask whether or not the water from your water heater makes a difference. I normally make my best efforts to have my water changes as close to 78F as possible, but notice that including water from the heater is visually different. On this note I differed to my engineer friend and was informed that anything from copper to zinc and even lead among other heavy metals can be in water heater water. After several hours it would seem my carbon filters take care of the cloudiness, but I am unsure about other chemicals in the water. 

I suppose my overall question is whether or not this water is at all dangerous or should at least be avoided? I can obviously figure out how to warm pure tap water but it would be more time consuming. Is there anyone who has some experience/knowledge about plain tap water vs. water heater water? The difference between the two types may have a larger margin than I previously expected so it is worth investigating.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

It is certain that there can be more metals in water from a heater, but the effect on water clarity and fish health doesn't seem to matter. I've used a hose for water changes since 1992 - I make a mix at the tap and go for it. I've kept and bred some incredibly delicate rainforest fishes in that time, with no shorter lifespan, diminished breeding or other health issues. 
I'm a water change fanatic, so my fish have had constant exposure to the worst water heaters can bring, and they are fine.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I use warm water myself, which has the water coming through the heater. Also my pipes are pretty old so Im sure theres other things in there as well. My fish all seem fine and even spawn(which is not always a sign of good health, just an FYI) and the plants look pretty good too. I dont use carbon in my filters.


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

FishFlow said:


> X2 on that. Figure out why your snails die within two days, publish a book, retire rich. Darn snails.... :shakesfistviolently:


Why snails whyyyyyyy. lol


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

*c/p*Update on my tank 
it must have cycled causs the water looks clear and the fish guy said all the stats are good . also i high alkline is suposivlly good mine was super high causs i was over doseing on ph buffer. now i use quarter of dose every 2 weeks .
also i was woundering how to go carbonless. ide rather not spend money on carbon but last time i only used filter media my water looked crappy. but the tank was not cycled either. what can i do ?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Remove the carbon and see if the water stays clear. What kind of filter do you have?I forgot if it was mentioned and too lazy to read back up ha. I dont use any carbon in my filters are all sponge/floss/ ceramic rings


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

*w3 Thank you for replying . i have a marien land biowheel good upto 30 gallon tank . I'm not to impressed with it . it came with the tank and keeps backflowing into the tank . i like the idea of the biowheel but there is hardly any room for sponges. i went to petco and all they sell for it are carbon incerts . i bought the blue filter media but it breaks apart in a week . also it doesent fit in the slots caus its to soft and folds in or out and the water flows around it . there was a filter that has build your own cartrage so you put your own carbon . i ike that caus you can just use the media to strain all the derbits out of the tank . Are most of the filter cartrages compadible?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If filter doesn't have flow control you can install a sponge on intake tube,not clean it (often) and that should slow inflow to match out flow.


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## disc61 (Oct 15, 2012)

navigator black said:


> Discus, by the way, are a blackwater cichlid that can be found at pH 4.5 in the wild. pH 7.8 is way off for them - even for captive bred ones. You really should stay under pH 7.0.


I would respectfully disagree, mine is 7.6 and i know of many that are kept in PH above 7. yes, Wilds like a lower PH, but most domestics will adapt to what you have. consistency in the water is so much more important. I have had a few females throw eggs in my water. RO is used to reduce that PH for breeding purposes but not really needed for the most part if not breeding. i do age my water, but the PH is still 7.6. just my experience and many others i have witnessed and encountered.


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

*old dudeDiscus natural habitat has a ph of 5.6 . I hade a discus in my older tank with some neons . the ph in my tank was about 6.0. i used discus buffer with tap water wich i conditioned with prime and let sit out over night . the discus was a marlboro and verry happy . never looked stressed. discus can be quite. discus how ever are tempature sensitive so i did water changes super slow . the intank temp was aprox 83 ° . next year. i hope to start another discus tank . 100 Gallon this time . old tank was a panoramic 50 gal


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## disc61 (Oct 15, 2012)

tropicoolfish said:


> *old dudeDiscus natural habitat has a ph of 5.6 .


 Agreed, in their natural habitat' like say for instance the Rio ***** river a black water river, the conductivity is about 10 and the ph in this river is about 4.5 actually. or the mighty Amazon which has a conductivity of about 60 and a ph of 6.4 to 6.9. now those 2 rivers are even much different in range of PH, although both are very soft and acidic and the Wild Discus thrive in this condition. But, for the most part there are so many more domestic Discus out there than their Wild counterparts. and although the Discus do well in waters with these parameters, Domestic discus are remarkably adaptable in their water requirements. This may be the result of generations of captive breeding and selection, no one can say for sure but it has made keeping these wonderful fish much easier. Young discus will grow fine in water that is between pH 7.0 and 8.0, with some raising them in water that is higher than pH 8.0. on the other side of the coin, Discus that are to be bred will spawn more readily in Softer waters and lower PH's. many breeders have noted decreases in hatch rates as the hardness goes up. To compensate for this, breeders not blessed with softer water use Ro Filters to help out. but less the breeding aspect, the Discus can easily survive in consitent PH of 7-8 with proper maintanence. it is tried and proven all over the internet.


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

I figured out what i was doing wrong with the snails. They take long to acclimate. Im buying a drip acvlimator. Also i used a slow acclimation process with new fish. None died and are doing good in the tank. i got 5 pricila tetras and 2 more neons. Gonna start adding plants . Only thing that stinks about that is gotta get uv lamps. More money. Ohh well will a led light bar work for plants?? Or what if sunlight gets to the tank. Sorry to go off topic .


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## WalkGood (Dec 8, 2012)

jvance said:


> To add to this discussion and to add my own questions I would like to ask whether or not the water from your water heater makes a difference.


There are bacteria (like Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease {pulmonary legionellosis}, ) that grow in water heaters if the water heater temp is not at LEAST 140*F. Yes, that is a potential scalding temperature. But then you should have a thermostatic mixing valve so that the scalding temp doesn't reach the tub/shower and sink faucets.

Particularly with well water, sulfur and iron bacteria can grow in a water heater.

A good precaution is a whole-house water micro-filtration. And set the temp to at least 140*F in the water heater. Flush the bottom of the tank twice a year.

Use your cold water only, after letting it run a minute or two. Boil a few huge pasta pots of fresh water if you wish to heat up a new tank fast (without any fish or real plant life of course!!!).

YMMV


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