# Help: New to SW hobby Advice Would be Appreciated!



## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

So after a couple years of doing freshwater, I'm going to give a shot with a saltwater tank. Actually, this whole new idea of starting a SW tank came about by accident as I bought a cheap tank off someone on Craigslist trying to empty out their garage. It was initially going to be another freshwater tank that I was going to consolidate a few fish from a couple of smaller tanks. But, when I got all this stuff home, I notice that the previous owner had a SW setup. I've always wanted to dabble a little with SW, so this new box of toys that I bumped into has only increased my curiosity and harnessed my addiction.

The only problem is, that even though I have learned to (somewhat) master the FW hobby, the SW hobby comes with some intimidation to me only because it is new and unfamiliar. But as I said, my addiction has had me reading for a day and a half now and am willing to read and make all the necessary sacrifices to learn this new hobby. So, here's what I picked up this weekend, and what I have to play with and keep in mind that I have a somewhat reasonable budget to play with as well to add on in addition to figure out everything I need to get a SW tank going. 

- 55 gallon tank and stand
- 220 Magnum Canister filter
- 280 Emperor Filter made by Marineland
- Aqua Tech Filter 30-60
- Penn Plax Under-gravel filter
- SeaClone Protein Skimmer 100 with out a box 86 the no box comment, its a hanging skimmer
- 3 power heads
- Lighting system with some kind of florescent lighting fixture.
- 1/2 bag of sea salt
- 2 buckets full of crush coral substrate
- And few other bits of odds and ends designed mainly for decor.

My biggest confusion is filtration and how to set up a protein skimmer. Are traditional hanging filtration systems used with SW tanks? If so, are FW and SW filtration systems interchangeable or are they two separate beasts? The protein skimmer I have is a hanging device, is this particular model any good? Is live rock, live sand and skimmer enough filtration for SW as I have heard from watching YouTube? Can I start a tank without a skimmer and use a traditional hanging filter until I figure out how and what kind of skimmer I need? If I use live rock, will that help cycle the tank faster?

I don't mind investing a few more bucks in getting this new venture off and running, but do I have enough here to get it started off the ground?

Any thoughts or knowledge of online resources that can be passed on will be greatly appreciated.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> - 55 gallon tank and stand
> - SeaClone Protein Skimmer 100 with out a box 86 the no box comment, its a hanging skimmer
> -
> - 2 buckets full of crush coral substrate
> ...


The protein skimmer you have is not the best in the world, but its double your water volume, you could get by with it. FW and SW filters are interchangable, but you don't need a filter on a saltwater tank. Like you researched, Live Rock, your substrate and a skimmer is all you need. 
Yes, if you used fully cured Live Rock, your tank would go through a mini cycle lasing only about a week or so.
Eshopps Hang on Back Protein Skimmer 75 Gallon | eBay
Reef Octopus Hang On the Back Protein Skimmer 90 Gallon | eBay
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Cycling Live Rock


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## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

Reefing Madness said:


> The protein skimmer you have is not the best in the world, but its double your water volume, you could get by with it. FW and SW filters are interchangable, but you don't need a filter on a saltwater tank. Like you researched, Live Rock, your substrate and a skimmer is all you need.
> Yes, if you used fully cured Live Rock, your tank would go through a mini cycle lasing only about a week or so.
> Eshopps Hang on Back Protein Skimmer 75 Gallon | eBay
> Reef Octopus Hang On the Back Protein Skimmer 90 Gallon | eBay
> Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Cycling Live Rock


Reefing Madness, thank you for all your advice, especially the extra stuff about how much live rock and links to the different sites for products and knowledge. Really nice of you to take the time.

One follow up question on filtration: If I have a few extra back hang on filters lying around the house, would it be to my advantage to have them on the tank with live rock and a skimmer? Could my water possibly stay a little healthier or compensate if something goes wrong like a fish dying that I may miss or if one of my kids decides to dump in a crap load of food and I can't scoop it all out?

Can someone advise me on how to best get my water salted, I know I can read this stuff on allot of different sites, but I prefer it from real people with real experiences. How much salt per gallon? How do I mix it? And do I only add salt during water change periods? What type of container is a good place to work with your salt water and is there a timing pattern before you can put your new water into you tank? Once a water change is properly done, do I ever need to worry about salinity other than my next water change? How often should I do water changes, and do I vacuum the substrate?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> Reefing Madness, thank you for all your advice, especially the extra stuff about how much live rock and links to the different sites for products and knowledge. Really nice of you to take the time.
> 
> One follow up question on filtration: If I have a few extra back hang on filters lying around the house, would it be to my advantage to have them on the tank with live rock and a skimmer? Could my water possibly stay a little healthier or compensate if something goes wrong like a fish dying that I may miss or if one of my kids decides to dump in a crap load of food and I can't scoop it all out?
> 
> ...


Reefing Madness, excellent advice as usual! But, You don't need a filter? Really? That's new to me, I understand the bio filter with the rock and sand, but when I change my berlin sock every week, I find it hard to believe I don't need a filter. Care to expand on that please?

Frank1971, Luckily your on your way to a running SW system. I prefer SW, as the beauty can't be had in fresh, I like colors.


Filtration is a personal preference, and people have good luck with different equipment. (Or non as reefing madness suggests) That being said, I have a preference for less equipment in my tank. Unfortunately my tank isn't drilled (Would love that) so I have a hang on overflow. I personally prefer a sump of some kind, it allows you to get stuff out of your tank. Your heater(s) (I have 2, one set 2 degrees lower than primary, should anything happen to the environment to sway it.), skimmer, rubble rock for added bio filter, and I prefer berlin socks now that i have used them. (had the filter pads, with bioballs, but switched) This doesn't mean that you can't do the HOB's that you have, it just isn't my preference. I actually have a HOB on my 30gal QT that is rated for a 75gal tank. Important thing to the tank is water flow. Not necessarily filtration, but flow. For filtration 3 times the water volume an hour is fine. For flow, I like to see 5-10 times the volume an hour for FOWLR, and 15-20 times for reef. I haven't seen or heard of the undergravel filters used now a days in SW. Although 15 years ago I did use one in my 125 I had back then. but I used gravel/crushed rock back then. Now I prefer a fine-med sand.

My problem with HOB Skimmers, is that's another pump in your tank. I'm actually running no skimmer in my tank right now. Is it optimum long term? Nope, I'll add one. But it can be skipped in the beginning. Plus, in the beginning stages, you really don't want it, and during the tanks cycle (4-6 weeks) you shouldn't have it on anyways.

As for your salting questions. When I started I used tap water, and treated it. (difference between treating the tap and RO/DI is night and day, WAY easier to control your parms with RO/DI) Since then I got smart and picked up a 100GPD 5 stage RO/DI filter, and 2 55 gal food grade barrels. One I use for discard water, the other I cut the top off (My mixing barrel) and I have a 1400gph powerhead located about 10 inches off the bottom of the barrel. The mix ratio for salt from what I've seen varied from manu to manu. I use instant ocean, Bought the bucket at first, then the 200gal box ever since. (Box is $40-$45 locally) And it's a cup for every 2 gallons your mixing. Starting the tank I don't think it's a big issue to just dump the fresh mixed saltwater into the tank, but once you have any livestock, let it rest in the bucket 24hrs after being mixed before doing a wc. (BAD mistake, I learned the hard way) Once you have the salinity where you want after 24 hrs, perform wc. (Note, your salinity reading will increase over the 24hr period, so don't test right off the batt. And only add salt when you do wc's) When starting out, It would be extremely helpful to you if you grab liek 10lbs of live rock, and a couple cups of sand from an established tank. This will speed the cycle, and help in the long run. (I'm unsure about WC's during the cycle, personally, let the tank run it's course, with just testing parms. Once nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia come to 0's, start wc's and monitor. Other opinions differ, do your reading on cycling a sw tank, and use an educated approach that you feel good about) In the beginning after cycle, your should wc on a weekly basis, until you notice things level out. After 2 weeks, add a hardy fish. Wait 2 weeks, and add a small cleaning crew. After the crew is in there for two weeks, switch WC's to bi-weekly. (This whole time testing the parms weekly during cycle, then every 2-3 days once fish are added.) Once tank is nicely established, switch to testing parms once a week, and wc's once a month (unless it's needed based on your parms). Remember, this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. Be patient, Patience in the beginning will help you have a nice healthy tank for the long term. Add fish 1-2 at a time, and switch back to testing every 2-3 days when adding fish. (I prefer 1 at a time, but this will depend on what your choosing) Leave wc's for once a month, unless it's reaction to your water parms.

As far as your substrate question is concerned, It all depends on what you have, and what livestock you have. Personally, I don't touch my sand at all unless I'm looking for something. I have a deep sand bed in my 55. That being said, when I setup my 180, I wont, as I'll use a removable deep sand bed. I think I have roughly 100lbs-120lbs of fine-med sand in my 55. I have eggcrate down, covered it until just not being able to see the crate, did my rock forms, and added the rest to the tank. BUT, I have a healthy cleaning crew. 20 hermits, 20 nassasarius snails, 3 sand sifting starfish, and a diamond goby. These guys together keep my sand nice and clean looking, and I'm happy with that. (The diamond goby was a mess at first, but after a couple weeks, the issues cleared up) So, the answer, in my tank, with the DSB, and my cleaning crew, I never touch the substrate. No need to. I don't really think anyone does, as that's what we have cleaning crews for.

Sorry for the book, just trying to help with what my experiences were, and what I've found on MANY different forums and websites. No bashing to this site at all, but I have found other sites more beneficial to me for the SW realm of things, This site seems to be more geared to the freshwater enthusiast. Which I have fresh also, so this site does help me with that tank. 

And typing all of this, I have to go change my sig, as some things have changed. *r2


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## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

e-zlight said:


> Reefing Madness, excellent advice as usual! But, You don't need a filter? Really? That's new to me, I understand the bio filter with the rock and sand, but when I change my berlin sock every week, I find it hard to believe I don't need a filter. Care to expand on that please?
> 
> Frank1971, Luckily your on your way to a running SW system. I prefer SW, as the beauty can't be had in fresh, I like colors.
> 
> ...


ZLight, all great information, I am truly appreciative especially about salinity and water parameters. As far as filtration, I have been reading about the SUMP system allot and I understand that it is the preferred method, which is what most likely what I will eventually turn too. But for the sake of getting off the ground, will a back hang on filtration system work adequately? Also, if I start with FOWLR tank using tap water, will I have difficulty later on switching to a reef tank and then using RO Water? In other words, what mistakes can I avoid now if I decide to switch later on? Can water parameters always be altered later to accommodate what I want to accomplish?

And, once again, I am in the research stage of setting up my first SW tank, and I would like to avoid allot of the mistakes I made when I dove into the FW hobby head first without research. Thanks for the long response and the time you took with details!


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## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

Also, question about live rock in regards to cycling the tank. Whether I decide to use 30, 60 or 90 pounds of live rock, can I introduce this rock a little slowly over time. Like maybe 10 to 15 pounds a week? In my research, the live rock seems to be very expensive because the pounds add up quickly. I figure it may slow down the cycling process, but will it still contribute to an overall cycle?


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> ZLight, all great information, I am truly appreciative especially about salinity and water parameters. As far as filtration, I have been reading about the SUMP system allot and I understand that it is the preferred method, which is what most likely what I will eventually turn too. But for the sake of getting off the ground, will a back hang on filtration system work adequately? Also, if I start with FOWLR tank using tap water, will I have difficulty later on switching to a reef tank and then using RO Water? In other words, what mistakes can I avoid now if I decide to switch later on? Can water parameters always be altered later to accommodate what I want to accomplish?
> 
> And, once again, I am in the research stage of setting up my first SW tank, and I would like to avoid allot of the mistakes I made when I dove into the FW hobby head first without research. Thanks for the long response and the time you took with details!


The simple answer, Yes & no. LOL

For the sake of getting things going, By all means, use what you have. You can always keep an eye out on craigslist and find a cheap or free tank (3 of my tanks were free, 10, 30, and my 180) that will fit under your stand, get a HOB overflow, or build one (Check the DIY sections for that) and get the clip on berlin sock holders for the under tank (if you order these from marinedepot, order the 4" filters, the smaller of the two. The 7" is for a MUCH larger sump. Learn from my mistake LOL), and you'll have room for an in sump skimmer, heater, baffles, and return pump.

Tap water is fine to use, and exactly what I used in the beginning. Just remember, tap or RODI, You still need to treat it. RODI just gives you a nice baseline. Once you get the rodi, as you perform WC's, you'll notice some things that were out of whack, coming back in line. Water changes will stabilize everything in the future, so no stress right now. The important thing at this point is to get the thing started with the cycle. You can always fine tune down the road. I'm still chasing my tap days, but am within reach. (I've only been back in the tank scene for about 6 months now) One other option, is allot of LFS, will have RODI mixed SW for sale, usually around 1.50 a gallon. An option for you, but I didn't go that way.

Right now I'm doing almost 50% WC's, because I'm draining my 30gal QT each time, and refilling with the water taken out of my display. I'm curing rock right now, so using that water will help speed it up. I also took some of my rubble out of my sump, and threw it in here to help speed it up.


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> Also, question about live rock in regards to cycling the tank. Whether I decide to use 30, 60 or 90 pounds of live rock, can I introduce this rock a little slowly over time. Like maybe 10 to 15 pounds a week? In my research, the live rock seems to be very expensive because the pounds add up quickly. I figure it may slow down the cycling process, but will it still contribute to an overall cycle?


One thing I did, was I bought an established tank, and then a lil while later, bought the contents of another tank. (again, thanks to craigslist) So I have more than enough for my 55, and a good start on my 180. The rock I'm curing I'm actually taking from what was destined for my 180, but need it now, so I can arrange my 55gal for my corals.

Adding the live rock down the road will just cause mini cycles. One little hint, Don't go for real heavy rock. The more porous the rock, the better bio load PSI. The heavy stuff may be more dense, and will just add to the cost, with less benefit.


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

e-zlight said:


> One thing I did, was I bought an established tank, and then a lil while later, bought the contents of another tank. (again, thanks to craigslist) So I have more than enough for my 55, and a good start on my 180. The rock I'm curing I'm actually taking from what was destined for my 180, but need it now, so I can arrange my 55gal for my corals.
> 
> Adding the live rock down the road will just cause mini cycles. One little hint, Don't go for real heavy rock. The more porous the rock, the better bio load PSI. The heavy stuff may be more dense, and will just add to the cost, with less benefit.


Hate quoting myself, but wanted to make sure you saw this instead of me just editing my last post.

If I were to take small steps, with a 55 gallon, I'd try to start with 30-40lbs of rock if I were taking steps. General rule of thumb is 2lbs per gallon, but if you start with 40lbs, and say you add 10-15 lbs every paycheck or the like, it will be less and less mini cycles. I would wait on fish until most of your planned rock is in there, and then you can get a good aquascape setup before fish.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

e-zlight said:


> Reefing Madness, excellent advice as usual! But, You don't need a filter? Really? That's new to me, I understand the bio filter with the rock and sand, but when I change my berlin sock every week, I find it hard to believe I don't need a filter. Care to expand on that please?
> *Sure. you see what you clean out of that sock every week, thats why they are called Nitrate factories. They harbor bacteria and waste in them. With enough LR the bacteria thirves in there, more than enough to break down the waste in the tank, along with a good size skimmer. No need to chase you tail worrying if there is crap building up in your filter sock.*
> 
> Frank1971, Luckily your on your way to a running SW system. I prefer SW, as the beauty can't be had in fresh, I like colors.
> ...


..


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> ZLight, all great information, I am truly appreciative especially about salinity and water parameters. As far as filtration, I have been reading about the SUMP system allot and I understand that it is the preferred method, which is what most likely what I will eventually turn too. But for the sake of getting off the ground, will a back hang on filtration system work adequately? Also, if I start with FOWLR tank using tap water, will I have difficulty later on switching to a reef tank and then using RO Water? In other words, what mistakes can I avoid now if I decide to switch later on? Can water parameters always be altered later to accommodate what I want to accomplish?
> 
> And, once again, I am in the research stage of setting up my first SW tank, and I would like to avoid allot of the mistakes I made when I dove into the FW hobby head first without research. Thanks for the long response and the time you took with details!


YOu can switch to a sump later on, using an overflow on the tank. You don't need it up front. I still don't use one. If you start with tap water, no it will not be a problem switching later. You are going to kick and scream at the algae problems your giong to run into though using tap water. It will take time at that point to remove the phosphates that have built up, but it can be done. Phosphate Reactor.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

e-zlight said:


> Tap water is fine to use, and exactly what I used in the beginning. Just remember,* tap or RODI, You still need to treat it. RODI just gives you a nice baseline.* Once you get the rodi, as you perform WC's, you'll notice some things that were out of whack, coming back in line. Water changes will stabilize everything in the future, so no stress right now. The important thing at this point is to get the thing started with the cycle. You can always fine tune down the road. I'm still chasing my tap days, but am within reach. (I've only been back in the tank scene for about 6 months now) One other option, is allot of LFS, will have RODI mixed SW for sale, usually around 1.50 a gallon. An option for you, but I didn't go that way.
> .


RO/DI is water stripped of everything. What exactly would you be treating it for at this point? Besides adding the correct amount of salt?
Purified water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

e-zlight said:


> Hate quoting myself, but wanted to make sure you saw this instead of me just editing my last post.
> 
> If I were to take small steps, with a 55 gallon, I'd try to start with 30-40lbs of rock if I were taking steps. General rule of thumb is 2lbs per gallon, but if you start with 40lbs, and say you add 10-15 lbs every paycheck or the like, it will be less and less mini cycles. I would wait on fish until most of your planned rock is in there, and then you can get a good aquascape setup before fish.


Yes, I like that. I just came back from the LFS, and the pricing on live rock is better than I thought at 1.99 a pound. Compared to another store went to over the weekend that had live rock at 5.99 a pound. I'll probably start with around 40 pounds, this paycheck, and add on the following week.

As far as salt, does $45 for 200 gallons sound about right?


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> RO/DI is water stripped of everything. What exactly would you be treating it for at this point? Besides adding the correct amount of salt?
> Purified water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hmmm, Thanks, Guess I was wrong. I've been doing the salt mix with my ro/di, plus treating it with prime. Guess I can skip the prime. You learn something new everyday. Thanks.


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## e-zlight (Mar 20, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> YOu can switch to a sump later on, using an overflow on the tank. You don't need it up front. I still don't use one. If you start with tap water, no it will not be a problem switching later. You are going to kick and scream at the algae problems your giong to run into though using tap water. It will take time at that point to remove the phosphates that have built up, but it can be done. Phosphate Reactor.


This is true, I had issues with algae, but It's gone away since I began the RO/DI. Still chasing the phosphates at this time though.

And frank, 1.99lb for live rock is a heck of a good price, hows the rock look though? Are you sure it isn't just base rock? Sounds like a base rock price to me. If it's live, and a regular price, you've got a score there. I've visited about 15-20 LFS establishments in my area. I think I only spend money at 3 of them. When I travel, I also like to check out stores in those areas too. LOL Just a habit I guess. But I refuse to spend money at places that don't give me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. If thats live rock for $2lbs, That store would give me that fuzzy. LOL

And yes, $45 for the 200gal box sounds about right. Go buy a 5gallon bucket with good seal from home depot, and dump the bag in one at a time. Sometimes in long storage out of the bag it's clump up.


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## Frank1971 (Aug 23, 2010)

e-zlight said:


> This is true, I had issues with algae, but It's gone away since I began the RO/DI. Still chasing the phosphates at this time though.
> 
> And frank, 1.99lb for live rock is a heck of a good price, hows the rock look though? Are you sure it isn't just base rock? Sounds like a base rock price to me. If it's live, and a regular price, you've got a score there. I've visited about 15-20 LFS establishments in my area. I think I only spend money at 3 of them. When I travel, I also like to check out stores in those areas too. LOL Just a habit I guess. But I refuse to spend money at places that don't give me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. If thats live rock for $2lbs, That store would give me that fuzzy. LOL
> 
> And yes, $45 for the 200gal box sounds about right. Go buy a 5gallon bucket with good seal from home depot, and dump the bag in one at a time. Sometimes in long storage out of the bag it's clump up.


I'm not quite sure what base rock is, again all new to me, but if its a uglier kind of rock that would sit at the bottom of youR little mountain of rocks, then yes... that's what it kind of looks like. But, if it is live, even if it was just base rock, will it still serve its purpose for cycling? Also, how do you buy live rock, does is always need to stay in water for transport? Do I take my buckets down to my LFS?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Frank1971 said:


> I'm not quite sure what base rock is, again all new to me, but if its a uglier kind of rock that would sit at the bottom of youR little mountain of rocks, then yes... that's what it kind of looks like. But, if it is live, even if it was just base rock, will it still serve its purpose for cycling? Also, how do you buy live rock, does is always need to stay in water for transport? Do I take my buckets down to my LFS?


Base rock, is just that, its not live rock, but it contains nothing metal or otherwise to damage the water once its in there. Thats what it sounds like your paying $1.99 for. Because thats an insane price for Live Rock. I pay $1.99 for Base Rock. It will serve its purpose for cycling yes. You buy Live Rock because of the bio diversity that is in them, all the critters that live and grow in it, some good some bad. Not everyone uses Live Rock in their tanks because of the unwanted critters, so they just flat out use Base Rock. you can take your bucket down to the LFS when buying LR, but usually the will put it in a container with wet paper over it, won't hurt anything in the short term.
MarcoRocks Aquarium Products
Live rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## shenglu (Nov 7, 2011)

Once you RODI, execute the toilet, you will find some things have bottomed out, back row. LED Flashlights Water changes will stabilize in the future all, so there is no pressure.


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