# Need help with my tank parameters...



## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Hello everyone have the old 40 gal up and need help with the paramiters. I will either collect rainbow darters or long ear sunfish. This is my setup at this time. 40 gal with 80 lbs of natural gravel collected locally with 30 lbs of colored gravel from a previous setup. I am running 2-30 gal whisper internal filters. At this time am using the 2-18in florescent hood lights. 1 peice of driftwood and rocks that was collected locally as well. I have added liquid bacteria and am feeding flake food every third day. Still have no fish or plants. Water test with a 5 in 1 test strip is as follows ... Nitrate is 10ppm... Nitrite is 1.0 ppm... Hardness GH 75ppm... Alkilinity 30ppm... PH 6.8 ... What adjustments do I need to adjust it to to keep either of the two native speices that I have mentioned? I will eventually add live plants. At this time the tank is still just a little cloudy.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Well, the presence of nitrites suggests that the tank is still cycling but you should have a colony of Nitrobacter soon to break it down into nitrates. I would recommend plants before fish as they help with the nitifying process as well. Make sure that before you introduce fish that all of your ammonia levels and nitrite levels read zero and bring them in very slowly so you don't overload the Bio-filter. Also I would look into getting an API master test kit, we have confirmed that the strips can't be trusted to be accurate. Also the sunfish you mentioned can get to be decent sizes so I would think about scaping the tank nicely and adding maybe only one, this will ensure the fish has plenty of room and you water quality stays high.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Hey CrazyMFFM, thanks for the reply. I have had a saltwater tank years ago and many freshwater tropical tanks but this will be my first cold fresh water native tank. Im disabled so at times money is a little tight but not bad. Just less than what I am use to. When I got out of the Army several years ago I drove big trucks over the road and locally. I agree with your statement about the test strips. I will take a water sample to my LFS Wed. They are about 60 miles away so I have to be going that way to get them to test my water. I will be able to get a master freshwater test kit by the end of the month. 

As for plants I want to look in my local creeks and streams for plants that I can put in my tank. I will be collecting local fish so I will look for local plants as well. If anyone has any suggestions, any at all on this project of mine PLEASE speak up. I can use your help on my first cold water tank.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Most pet stores around me use strips to test customer's water also. You can get a new master kit on Walmart.com for about $23 shipped, last I looked. Would not pay what they want in a local store.....nearly double.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Hey jr my pet shop uses the good liquid test kits. Yea I know (shock) lol but there a good caring pet shop. I have allready looked at walmart.com and agree with you the test kit is alot cheaper there than at the LFS. I havent had a tank setup in a little over 5 yrs. I am a little rusty and like I said need a little help to refresh my memory...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

If you are collecting your own, visit the habitat and test the water. All you'll need is a small kit for GH, KH and pH, not the big master kit. Even (heresy) API test strips will give you a good indicator in the field. There is no better indicator of what's best for your fish. With natives, it's really easy.
Once the tank has run long enough to be cycled, then water changes and low stocking should control the cycle. You don't need to test an established tank if you keep populations low and have a routine. Weekly water changes will do wonders.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Good Morning Everyone!!! Ordered an API Master Test Kit this morning. Will be in next week.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I have a pumpkinseed sunfish, great personality. IMO you could only have one sunfish in a 40 gallon, they get quite large and are quite aggressive, you might be able to have darters in the same tank though because if they are fast enough it will give up chasing them. sunfish are very hardy and adaptable to water conditions, so once your tank is cycled I wouldn't worry about the exact pH etc.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks for the reply snail. Will my setup be enough ie filtration etc to take care of a sunnie and also how did you setup your tank? I have natural gravel and rocks and a driftwood stump. Did you put in any live or artificial plants? As for feeding what do you feed?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I have him in a 90 gallon planted tank with a school of fast moving fish. I did a DIY soil substrate topped with sand and have driftwood stumps. He is quite bold but enjoys places to hide and explore, he loves hunting for snails. He doesn't bother the plants at all which is a nice thing, but the other fish are not so kind on the plants. He chased the other fish a lot to start with but they were too fast for him and they now live in reasonable harmony. They can grow to 10 inches but mine is well under 4 and hasn't grown much in the last year so I don't think it will ever be that big. I started off with him in a 30 gallon on his own, which I was worried he might outgrow but I think he would have been fine to stay there. Of course a 10 inch fish needs a big tank so be aware they can get big. He took meaty food after a few days and after a couple of months I got him to eat cichlid pellets.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Hey snail awesome my last big tank was a 125 gal and I had a Tiger Oscar. I kept him for almost 6 yrs and he died. He was 13 inches and 7 lbs. Dude would eat 2 to 3 dozen small shinners every week and a half. I will eventually set this one up as a planted fresh water tropical but not until I get moved this fall and get me a larger tank for my sunfish I am going to put in this 40 gal.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Well got the API in today and tested my tank. Got a little ways to go. Ammonia .25ppm
Ph 6.4ppm,Nitrite 5.0ppm,Nitrate 2ppm... So gonna do a waterchange yada,yada,yada. Talk to ya later...


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Goodmorning everyone. I went down to my local collection area this morning and got a water sample. It tested as follows. PH,7.0 Ammonia,0 Nitrate and Nitrite were also 0. I did a 50% water change on my tank last night and it has clouded up this morning. Water test on the tank is as follows... PH,7.0 ammonia is now 0 but nitrite is 5.0 and nitrate is 10. I replaced my filters last night . I did rinse well and I think I will add more charcoal to the filter bags. I cannot ever rember ever having city water from the tap this hard to balance and adjust for tank water.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

do not replace filters, that is where most of your bacteria you need is.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

These filters have 2 parts. A bio pad and a charcoal bag. The bags were stopped up is why I changed them. I have used jungle start zyme for years with great results to jump start a cycle. We have only lived in this area 3 months now and this is my first time ever to use this water. I am thinking I may take my 2 old whisper 20 filters and set them up also. I just need to get 2 new impellers and they use the same filter bag as my internal whisper 30 filters do.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

good deal


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

I know I have not had a tank in a little over 5 yrs but that was 1 of my must haves when I bought these filters was the bio pads. Long range plans will be to take these 2 internal filters and make both a bio filter only in the future when I get my canister filter bought and installed. I want to remove the hoods and 2 18in lights and put on a 48in light etc. being disabled now and on a fixed income my wonderful wife is letting me do this one step and one peice at a time. Well she says get what I need but I make sure the bills are paid first.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Well I tested my water from the faucet for nitrite and
nitrates and both were 0.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

It sounds like things are going very well and have passed the middle of 'the cycle', soon the nitrites should drop to 0 as nitrates raise. You will never get the nitrates to 0 unless you have plants but they can be kept low with water changes. Cloudy water is not unusual during the cycle and should clear up on it's own. 

As for filter bags I suggest you just rinse them out in old tank water and use them again. Really the less you change them the better. The exception is charcoal which looses it's effectiveness. I find charcoal very effective for removing the yellow tinge you get from the tannins in driftwood etc but you shouldn't need it all the time.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Good Morning snail and everyone. Tank is looking better this morning. It has cleared up some. I am going to test this evening and see if its about ready to put a couple longears in this weekend. I am going to add more filtration as soon as I get the parts to rebuild a couple of HOB whisper 20 filters I have.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

You really want nitrites to drop to 0 before you add fish. Sometimes that part of the cycle finishes very quickly but it can take a while, it's just a case of wait and see. One problem I had was that the fish was not used to eating the food I gave to start with so it involved a lot of messy, meaty food until I got him used to it so you don't want to be doing that in a tank that is still cycling. 

As for 'a couple' of longears: You might be better off with only one. I don't know how longears compare to pumpkinseeds in personality but I'm guessing they are similar. I originally tried two pumkinseeds and it didn't work, I had to give one away. I think (bearing in mind my experience is limited) if you have two the strongest is always going to end up killing the weaker one. I've seen tanks where people had a group of sunfish so maybe they behave differently in a group but you'd need a big tank for that. I have some fast moving minnow type fish with mine (that are a good bit bigger than his mouth, and too fast to catch). He seems to view them as a general nuisance but has come to more or less accept them.


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## billandkerri001 (Apr 12, 2012)

Snail just so you and everyone know I am not experienced in keeping wild native fish. I will say this,from all the research I have done the Longear Sunfish is a more peaceful fish than a Bream or something along that type of fish. I want to catch them at a young small age so I can work with them on eatting pellet and flake foods. We are going to move this fall to the other side of the lake so the wife will be closer to her job. When we move and get a larger house I am going to find a good used 125 or 150 gal so putting 2 or 3 should be ok I hope lol. My goal in the fall will be to have live plants,my driftwood and my natural gravel.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm trying to do some research about this. My two were never going to get along in a 30 gallon aquarium. I tried to wait it out thinking they might settle but the aggression just got worse and I gave up after a couple of weeks. I'm quite sure the larger one would have killed the smaller one eventually. I think the reason he didn't in that time is that there was a lot of cover in the aquarium so the smaller one was able to hide but he was getting quite stressed. I'm not sure how big the aquarium would have had to have been for them to have had room each to have their own territory and be happy, but I'm I don't think they would even have gotten on in the 90 gallon.

Some fish will never get along in twos but put them in a larger group of say 5 or 6 and they do okay. This is typical of schooling species but can also be true of some aggressive/semi aggressive species. Instead of the stronger one beating up the weakest one all the time the aggression/interaction is shared out between all of them an leads to a balance that allows them to live together. To be honest I've found it hard to find reliable information about sunfish in the aquarium. Lots of ideas and suggestions around but they might not all work out long term and you don't often get the follow up on how things worked out so some of it is guess work.

This page has some interesting general information:
BioKIDS - Kids' Inquiry of Diverse Species, Critter Catalog, Lepomis megalotis, longear sunfish
It says:


> Larger longear sunfish are dominant over smaller longear regardless of gender. In the wild, dominance behavior is made up of displays and chasings but little physical contact. In an aquarium, longear sunfish interact very aggressively with other longear sunfish. If two longear sunfish are placed together in a 5 gallon tank the larger fish will become dominant and will chase and nip the subordinate fish until the subordinate fish dies. If placed in a large enough tank, longear sunfish can co-exist in an aquarium.


This is my experience in a 30 gallon, what it doesn't say is how big the aquarium needs to be.

It also seems that longears are smaller than pumkinseeds and may not be as aggressive. In your large tank I would try for a group of them but for now I'm not sure, maybe stick to one or try 3 or 4 small ones. The problem is they are messy fish and grow quite fast. 

If you get really tiny ones I might help them to get on better as they grow but I think you could get any sized one to eat and settle into the aquarium okay. Mine were about 2.5inches and 3inches long when I got them. Although it was a bit messy to start with they are greedy fish and not all that fussy. Once they work out the connection between you and food they will literally be eating out of your fingers in no time.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

EDIT: Double posted by mistake, mods can delete


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