# Community Vote



## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

I do plan on using this opportunity and any other to do hands on research with the organisms I keep. I will be experimenting with the organisms. Now, before you hit that reply button and start in on me on experimenting on pets, know this: I will NOT, I repeat, WILL NOT, harm any organisms. Also, note the "experimenting WITH", Not ON. The types of experiments I will do involve little more than trying to see how intelligent the organisms are, and in general trying to understand their minds a little better. This basically means, I will be doing nothing that involves pain, or poking them, starving them, or any other abusive activity. I will be testing recognition, memory, and other things.

However, as two organisms are not enough to do a full fledged study, testing, and experimenting with, I will have to wait for the organisms to reproduce, so I will have many, many more. I will need at least 100 individuals to test, study, and experiment with, and that is WAY too many to buy. Lol.

I will be making a separate thread with more on the details of the study, testing, and experimenting with the organisms I keep. I will post any ideas I have on testing and experiments I would like to do as well as any hypotheses I have that I would like to test for. This is mainly to run everything through this forum to show I do not want to harm any organisms, and so everyone will have their say on the specific things I want to observe.

Note: I plan on publishing the majority of the things I do, and so I may not put everything down to prevent third parties from "stealing" data. However, everything I plan to do, I will run through you guys, so there will be nothing in my publications that I haven't run through you, or that you have said would be taken as abuse or otherwise, that the majority of you do not want me doing whatever it is. Disclaimer: This policy might change when I get my degree. If it does I will let you know.

Also note, I DO consider myself a scientist, which is why I plan to do this. However, I am also an avid aquarium hobbyist who does not want any harm to befall his "children." That being said, I will ensure that my pets do not become lab animals, and that I regard them as the animals they are and not things to mess with. That means I will be doing relatively few experiments with my organisms per generation, group, etc. Also, I WILL still sell them when the time comes, but all this will be explained in detail later on.

If you have any concerns or questions with me doing this, please reply and I will answer accordingly.

Disclaimer: I will tally the results of this poll SIX (6) MONTHS from now. I will proceed according to the majority of the poll. If it is an even split, it is going to be up to me on how to proceed.


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

Please vote when you view this. It only takes two clicks and five seconds. I feel really under appreciated with only two votes and over 100 views. Plus I want to know because I'm trying to involve all of you and don't want hate mail or anything. I also don't want banned or reported or anything ridiculous like that. And, I'd like your ideas on what to do and such.

Though, if you don't care, just don't vote and I won't put anything about this on here and be done with it.

Thanks.

PS~I'm sorry if I sound abnormal, I'm just having a low moment right now. Please show you care and want me to continue.


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## SeanMcC (Jul 5, 2013)

I voted indifferent. The one thing that bothers me is you keep saying organisms. So you mean FISH and if so, why not say FISH. Sort of creepy to me for some reason.

If you are testing memory and other items that might come under the heading of behavior, I see no real issue as long as you have provisions for the "organisms" when you are done with your experiment. I would hope that flushing them is not the end state.


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## Avraptorhal (Jan 24, 2013)

I also voted indifferent. The reason I did not vote yes is the vagueness of your question. I understand your concern with plagerism (sp) but I can't vote yes or no with something that vague.


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

I say organisms mainly because when I say 'fish' mean fish and not, say, crabs or anything. I'm mainly going to be testing crabs. And no, I will not abuse them. They will be sold when they are at selling size. Also, they only way they are going down the toilet is if they die of natural causes when young. If any do die, I will immediately stop the tests and try to find out why it died and see if others follow suit. If it happens that it is because of my experimenting, I will either decrease the number I do on each crab to see if that brings stress down. Or, I will stop outright, which will probably only happen if I see ANY amount of testing is stressing them to the point of death. That being said, I will only test a few ideas on each batch so as to hopefully prevent it. I will document everything on a thread in this forum so you can see. Though, as I may publish this, I won't put everything down. But, I will put any key events such as a death that is or may be due to testing so I can reevaluate what I'm doing. I am going to do it as humanely as possible, though.


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

Avraptorhal said:


> I also voted indifferent. The reason I did not vote yes is the vagueness of your question. I understand your concern with plagerism (sp) but I can't vote yes or no with something that vague.


Exactly what was vague? I will try to address them and improve upon it.


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

Avraptorhal said:


> I also voted indifferent. The reason I did not vote yes is the vagueness of your question. I understand your concern with plagerism (sp) but I can't vote yes or no with something that vague.


Okay, after re reading it a few times and thinking about it, I think I know what you are trying to tell me and if I'm wrong and am addressing a totally different issue, then please tell me what you found vague.

Okay, this poll is just to find out if you guys are okay with me testing and documenting things about my crabs on this forum. It's basically asking: Are you interested in reading about my experiments on my crabs? Which, if you answer yes, then that means you are okay with me proceeding. I will cover exactly what it is I'm testing on a later date. If you all want me to start giving ideas and things I have some now. But they will be created on a separate thread - The actual thread I will use to document any experiments done on my children. Yes, I consider my crabs (actually any crab) as my children. You may read my business thread for more details on that (How weird I am and all).


PS~This is my first time creating a poll so please bear with me. I will learn how to better ask questions and all.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What experiments? If you detailed what it is you are doing, maybe you would get the results you expected or at least people voting.

Why not just do it and then post your results after? Do you really need the moral support to go forward in the form of a poll? Sounds like your experiments skirt the edge of harming your creatures by the way you go on about it and ask everyone to join in. I would tread carefully if that is the case.


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

Okay. I guess I should clarify a bit. No, I am not skirting the edge of harming my children. As a parent would never harm his children intentionally, neither will I. However, I am worried that too much testing might stress them out a bit, which is why I've mentioned only doing a few tests per batch, so I limit their exposure to the stress I may cause. However, as I'm sure crabs are very vigilant and adaptive, I'm sure they will be fine. I'd just rather err on the side of caution. That is what I mentioned in my previous post replying to Sean, about the whole death thing, since he mentioned flushing them down the toilet. I am confident that won't happen. I'm also sure the only cause of death will be limited cannibalism, moulting issues, and other natural deaths. Since I have never raised crabs from birth and only started keeping them a little over a month ago I can expect some casualties from those sources, since they are mostly out of my power to prevent.

Some types of things I want to figure out and hypothesis and things:
1) I think when they get closer to moulting, their shells get darker, and you can't see all the individual spots like regular. It looks like one big brownish black spot with a few spots distinguishable on the edges.
2) I want to form some experiments to test intelligence. I need some ideas for this one. I've picked some up in chat talking to people:
a) train them to do simple tasks such as pulling a string to get fed. This would test for if they can tell when they should get fed (part of intelligence), and/or if they get hungry like us. I would be able to tell by seeing when they pull the string. I feed my crabs (children) on M W and F. If they pull the string on these days at about the same time, they are most likely somewhat self aware and aware of time and such. You may ask, couldn't they just get in the habit? I don't believe so. See, M W and F are one day apart. But, what about from F to M? That has two days between them. So, I don't believe they could get in the habit as opposed to if I fed them every other day. Even if they could get in the habit, that would mean they had some awareness, since they would have to wait a full two days over the weekends. I would account for misfeedings because of moulting, of course. Now as for hunger, if they ring it randomly, and out of order and such, with no such pattern, that suggests they may feel hunger. I know what you're saying. YOU'RE STARVING THEM! Right? Well, you'd be right and wrong, but mainly wrong. I would watch for signs of stress or other things that could be from a lack of appetite and would feed them right away. Also, before I would even start this experiment, I would make sure I've fed them regularly every day I feed them at roughly the same time for at least six months, or whatever we as a community decide is an appropriate amount of time, to make sure they know when it is time to eat. This way, I can cover the angle of "they didn't know when it was time."

That brings up another point you mentioned, jr. The reason I'm posting this poll is to ready the community. See, I don't want to have one of those BORING I do all the experimenting, and never ask all you for input, or include you in any way. NO! I want your total support and interaction in this. I hate those classes in college where the professor stands in front of the class and gives the lecture and doesn't involve the students. I want to interact with all of you. I want you to feel like you've helped and done a part of this yourself. I don't just want to post things and do all the things myself. Where's the fun in that? I want your ideas, your input, your advice. I want to put your names on the book and report that I publish. Yes, I will credit any info, experiments, additions, or upgrades that make the experiment better that you come up with. See, I love this forum, yet there is one thing I don't like. It happens in all forums I've seen, so don't think I'm downing you. There is no interaction! Yes, members post questions and we answer them, we make suggestions, and sometimes the person follows through. But have any of you EVER seen a project/build/ANYTHING, that was part of the whole community? I want to take a back seat and only do the actual breeding, experimenting, and that sort of thing. I want YOU, the COMMUNITY, to take the front seat and drive this thing like crazy! Now, please don't get too crazy. Lol.

So, basically, by polling this issue, I hope to see who actually cares, who actually wants to participate, and who actually wants to take the wheel of my experiments. Trust me, I know, I may be the scientist (not technically, yet), but this community has the know-how, ideas, and willpower to do this better than I can. See, I have Asperger's Syndrome. It makes me socially awkward, closer to crabs than I am people, and emotionally imbalanced, among other things. But what really saddens me the most about it is this: I shift subjects too easily. I get enthused about one thing, but then want another a few weeks later. See, I don't have the attention span to do what I love and dream about. I need support from people. This is my dream. To breed organisms to help make the aquarium hobby more ecologically friendly. But, I need YOU! I share this not to make you have pity on me or anything. I share this to help you understand why I need this to be interactive, why I can't just do it myself. Sure I could, but it wouldn't last very long and I'd get sidetracked. I've seen WAY too many threads on aquarium builds and breeding attempts on herd to breed/raise spp that have just stopped after they fail. I don't know if they eventually succeeded. I don't know if they tried again. But I always want to know what happened next, and they never show it. Well, I don't want this to be one of those when I start it.

So, that is why I posted this thread. To ask you:

Are you willing to take control of this and take it further than I can by myself? Are you willing to support me and give me ideas and be interactive in this activity if I post a thread on it? Is this something you would like to do?

If so, please show me by voting. Don't answer based on the actual poll question. Answer based on this post right here and by these questions. If you have already voted, then reply if it has changed. If not, just leave it.

So, if at least 100 member say yes to this, I will continue. I will continue WHEN the hundred members say yes. At first it will be mostly brainstorming until I can breed a spp of crab and get at least 100 crablets. Which shouldn't take long. If you show you are serious, I will do get everything ready as quick as I can. If not, well, I'll slack off too. After all, you are running the show!

Please, don't break my heart.

PS~Please, one of the Moderators, tell me if the 100 members is a good number. Obviously, I don't want a number that high if, say, only 50 people are active, but by the fact that this thread has over 100 views, I think I'm fine.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

You may have 100 views but basically most will be repeats of people checking to see how the voting is going. Some are also probably new members and may not understand what you are asking and won't vote or feel like they haven't been here long enough to vote.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

J4C8_GreenGo said:


> Okay. I guess I should clarify a bit. No, I am not skirting the edge of harming my children. As a parent would never harm his children intentionally, neither will I. However, I am worried that too much testing might stress them out a bit, which is why I've mentioned only doing a few tests per batch, so I limit their exposure to the stress I may cause. However, as I'm sure crabs are very vigilant and adaptive, I'm sure they will be fine. I'd just rather err on the side of caution. That is what I mentioned in my previous post replying to Sean, about the whole death thing, since he mentioned flushing them down the toilet. I am confident that won't happen. I'm also sure the only cause of death will be limited cannibalism, moulting issues, and other natural deaths. Since I have never raised crabs from birth and only started keeping them a little over a month ago I can expect some casualties from those sources, since they are mostly out of my power to prevent.


I don't mean to offend and not encourage you to become a scientist, but I don't many lab techs that refer to their test subjects as 'children'. Lab testing on animals can often be a cruel process, if you are to continue with this experiment, you can't be too attached. You will be stressing them possibly to the point of dying.



J4C8_GreenGo said:


> But have any of you EVER seen a project/build/ANYTHING, that was part of the whole community? I want to take a back seat and only do the actual breeding, experimenting, and that sort of thing. I want YOU, the COMMUNITY, to take the front seat and drive this thing like crazy! Now, please don't get too crazy. Lol.





J4C8_GreenGo said:


> So, basically, by polling this issue, I hope to see who actually cares, who actually wants to participate, and who actually wants to take the wheel of my experiments. Trust me, I know, I may be the scientist (not technically, yet), but this community has the know-how, ideas, and willpower to do this better than I can. See, I have Asperger's Syndrome. It makes me socially awkward, closer to crabs than I am people, and emotionally imbalanced, among other things. But what really saddens me the most about it is this: I shift subjects too easily. I get enthused about one thing, but then want another a few weeks later. See, I don't have the attention span to do what I love and dream about. I need support from people. This is my dream. To breed organisms to help make the aquarium hobby more ecologically friendly. But, I need YOU! I share this not to make you have pity on me or anything. I share this to help you understand why I need this to be interactive, why I can't just do it myself. Sure I could, but it wouldn't last very long and I'd get sidetracked. I've seen WAY too many threads on aquarium builds and breeding attempts on herd to breed/raise spp that have just stopped after they fail. I don't know if they eventually succeeded. I don't know if they tried again. But I always want to know what happened next, and they never show it. Well, I don't want this to be one of those when I start it.





J4C8_GreenGo said:


> So, that is why I posted this thread. To ask you:
> 
> Are you willing to take control of this and take it further than I can by myself? Are you willing to support me and give me ideas and be interactive in this activity if I post a thread on it? Is this something you would like to do?


I don't see the reasoning behind trying to rally the whole community into an experiment before you have even really outlined the process or even began to take the steps. You should want to do this for you and not expect someone to take over.

It seems to me that you went out and bought 10 aquariums and have them sitting around with only 3 crabs in 1 of them. You shouldn't overextend yourself so quickly, especially without the proper funding to back up your tests, what if halfway trough you realize how much effort it takes to upkeep all these tanks and how expensive it gets, all while still being at school studying and possibly working part time.

I think it may be prudent to scale back your expectations for a while.
I would keep the 75g going and go really slow.



J4C8_GreenGo said:


> So, if at least 100 member say yes to this, I will continue. I will continue WHEN the hundred members say yes. At first it will be mostly brainstorming until I can breed a spp of crab and get at least 100 crablets. Which shouldn't take long. If you show you are serious, I will do get everything ready as quick as I can. If not, well, I'll slack off too. After all, you are running the show!


Don't only go by views, everyday, hundreds of guests stop by the forums to learn and do their own research.

Hang in there


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

I know that I shouldn't only go by views. Also, I am not going to be cruel. I want to do this in the most humane way possible without stressing them out too much. Hence the: ONLY A FEW FOR EACH BATCH part of the deal. Plus, these are not lab animals. These are my family and my children. Lab animals come when I get a degree. Also, I have not outlined everything because I want you to take over and give me suggestions and things. Also, I don't have the money which is why I stated "it will only be suggestions at first." Because I need money, though I can earn some relatively easily. It just involves work. Also, the reason I want the community rallying behind me is so that I stay focused on one thing, not quit because it's not working, or because I'm too lazy to do water changes or maintenance. Also, if the maintenance gets to be too much (never will, but let's say it does), I look at it this way: At least I am bettering my crabs by taking proper care of them and thus am enjoying them more AND getting exercise at the same time (of which I desperately need). Also, I do want to do this for me, I just want the community to contribute to it.

Also, I try not to assume anything about anyone or anything. This is because it is based on illogic (or often no logic or misplaced logic at all.), and can hurt people's feelings. Why do you assume I bought these aquariums? Because I didn't. I inherited them from my grandpa about two years back and just don't want to sell them. I may be closer to my crabs than humans, but that hurt.

And please, Don't assume anything. I've made that my rule and follow it as best I can.

I'm sorry if I seemed rude at all or anything.

Thanks for reading my posts.

Also, if you are new and that is the case, about not thinking you can participate because of some reason, just jump right in! I don't care if you've just joined to tell me something, or if you know nothing about crabs or anything. This is a learning experience for us all. 

Marshall, rereading your post, it sounds less like you assumed. I mean you no offense. And I really do appreciate you putting what you said nicely, I just don't think you understood my posts to the utmost. I think I've stated very clearly what I wanted/needed, and I appreciate the feedback and concerns. Also, I just don't know how to reword it so it doesn't sound so rude(?) but still has the same meaning and effectiveness. That is why I left it as is. I hope you understand.


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## Jenniferinfl (May 3, 2013)

Really? So you have decided that you are a scientist but the results of this poll of random individuals on the internet will decide whether or not you actually run an experiment?

A community forum of aquarium hobbyists is not the place to find out how feasible a study is. Generally, you need a doctorate degree in the sciences to be published. You will also need your study peer reviewed by other scientists with doctorates. 

A good resource is your current Biology professor. Hopefully you have already completed Bio I and Bio II and are moving into your last couple years of your bachelor degree studies. This is the point where you generally do more advanced work including assisting in studies. If you don't already have access to research papers, either ask a current professor or your schools library services what sites they have access to research papers on. For many research papers you need a subscription to read more than the abstract. My college gave me an ID and sign on to access research papers on a few different sites. You'll want to search for similar research to see if your experiment has already been done. You would be surprised what has already been done but simply isn't common knowledge because it has only been published in scientific journals and not picked up by the mainstream media. If the experiment you intend to try hasn't been done on your species of choice, has it been done on another species? It is probably helpful to read through how their research was conducted to be sure you don't miss gathering important data. 

Probably the most important point here is getting in good with your professor. That can often give you access to better equipment than you could afford to buy on your own. For instance, my old micro professor would let particularly enthusiastic students come to lab a half hour early to use the microscopes and slide prep station. 

Recently I did a fun experiment for my own personal information where I tested the efficacy of various beneficial bacteria in a bottle. It wasn't a real scientific experiment, certainly not worthy of publishing, it was just for fun. I didn't need a poll to tell me to do it or not do it. I did the experiment because I love collecting data and nothing was going to be harmed in the experiment other than my wallet... lol 

If it doesn't do any harm, than do whatever experiment you want to do for fun. Otherwise, you should first research to see if the experiment has been done, find similar studies on other species and learn from them, acquire the assistance/feedback of a professor and so on.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

I apologize if any feelings were hurt, I want to encourage you while at the same time have you realize that you can't count on others to follow through for you. In life we have to work hard for what we want.

If you want to do this then I say go for it, and I wish you the best of luck


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## J4C8_GreenGo (May 19, 2013)

Okay. First let me say this. I don't think I have said I will not do any experiments if the poll results are not right. However, I did say I wouldn't post them on the forum. Second, thanks for letting me know about the whole study peer reviewed thing, as I did not know that. Third, I am not asking how feasible an experiment might be, I am asking if it would be something you would be interested in me doing and posting on an experiment.

Lastly, I have decided, for various reasons (too many to list), to just go with it. I will, however, attempt to make it as interactive as possible. I will be posting a new thread soon. I just have one question, where should I post it?

And thanks Marshall. Apology accepted. And thanks for supporting me.

I will tell you this, one of the reasons for me just going with it is because of what you said Marshall. You won't always have people around to support you. So, I have to have the will power to keep myself on track.

Oh, and yes, it will all be for fun. However, as I stated above, I do plan to make it as interactive as possible. Stay tuned!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Personally, I don't think anybody here needs to "take the drivers seat" in your experiment or even further the forum. If you want to do your experiment nobody will stop you.

Get some things going and come back and tell what progress you've made and then people will ask things of it and maybe get involved. Otherwise, I think you're wasting your time on here.

We have had polls on here before asking if people want me to do this experiment...they make no sense.


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## Avraptorhal (Jan 24, 2013)

J4C8_GreenGo said:


> Exactly what was vague? I will try to address them and improve upon it.


You could have specified the "organisms" you intend to study. You also could have outlined the areas you intended to investigate. 

You also have to understand that my comment comes from someone who has been in the industrial world for almost five decades and has been burned by misinterpretations so I'm extremely cautious when supporting a venture without more specifics.

Good Luck anyway!


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

i say go for it. 

personally, i dont care if you cause your critters harm or not, as long as its an endeavor to learn. 

i am always experimenting with my animals. the most recent one involves malawa shrimp, which i will breed to large numbers and subsequently kill off in large numbers. why? because some will survive and i want to see if the genes that express color are related to other genes that allow the shrimp to adapt to its environment. i suspect this might be the case, so i have to subject a lot of shrimp to a lot of stress to see if the survivors produce anomalies in chromatophores, iridophores, etc.

i have already seen it take place with red cherry shrimp, but i am still waiting to see if the phylogeny will return to normal. i should know with my next generation is produced. without equipment to study their DNA, this is about the best i can do.

i dont typically post such things in forums until i have learned what i want to learn though. most people feel more emotionally connected to their critters than i do, and a quick way offend people is to experiment on animals...


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## Sebastian (Dec 27, 2012)

Jennifer, you spoke from my heart. I have a Masters in a related field, but I did not have the energy to write up a response to this.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

by the way, whatever study you do, you dont have to treat it like a doctoral thesis. you dont even need any special training for the data you collect to be worth something. all you have to do is have a basic understanding of the scientific method.

even if you dont have that, if you record your observations and procedures, its still valuable information. anyone that tells you that you are not qualified to conduct an experiment has forgotten the spirit of men such as G. Evelyn Hutchinson:

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."

if you like to read, i would suggest his volume set, "treatise on limnology". its a bit dated, but you can feel his level of fascination and passion for nature. 


now, so far as testing the crabs colour around molting time, this should be easy. just take some clear pics every few days under the same lighting conditions with the same camera and same settings, and compare them after the crab molts. be sure to take pics of the same part of the crab so that you can see the changes to the same location. you may want to take shots of multiple locations on the crab.

this would be an easy test, since the control is essentially the crab itself, and the variable is time in relation to its molting cycle. 

now, as for testing intelligence, that one is quite a bit more tricky. the idea with the string probably wont tell you much. the biggest problem i see with it is with the crabs pulling the string to begin with. i doubt you will be able to train them to do so, but you may prove me wrong. 
unfortunately, quantifying intelligence is one of the hardest goals you can pick. if a similar study has not been done to set a precedent, then you have absolutely no standard to base your results off of. in the end, what you would be testing is to see if the crabs have the ability to learn patterns, solve problems, etc. so, your results would be either positive or negative, without any real meaning to the data you collect. these types of experiments have no control, so the data you collect would better fit the definition of a recorded observation.

whatever experiment you come up with should be reproducible. so, whatever you come up with, you should do it a few times if you really want to be sure that what you are seeing and recording is a result of what you are expecting. whats more important than showing consistent results is being able to explain anomalies. so, if all your crabs change colour except one, try to explain why that particular one did not change.

ill pick shrimp as an example, this is a close up pic of a neocardina shirmp:
see how the chromatophores have thin branches around the edges that get lighter in colour towards the edges?









just after the shrimp molted, i looked at it again and those yellow regions had turned red. a week later, there were new yellow regions.

after putting several of my shrimp through stress, one of the shrimp turned out completely yellow. looking at its chromatophores, none of them had expanded and turned red like a normal cherry shrimp.
i had no way of knowing if the environmental stress alone had caused this or if it was something genetic, so i bred the shrimp to a single female and cross bred its young back to it to see if it passed on the trait, possibly a mutation on whatever gene causes the chromatophores to expand. i wont know what the exact genetic mechanism is that caused the odd chromatophores, but ill know if its genetic soon enough.

i wouldnt even call this a true experiment, since i have not yet tested another population of original shrimp, but i will.

all this isnt that interesting to most, but those who breed shrimp for a living are pretty excited about what i have been recording, as am i. so, even if you dont know who might be interested in what you find, try it anyway. chances are good that someone somewhere will find it interesting.


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