# cycle never started



## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

Hi Everyone! So I've had my tank for almost 2 months now... and I have not had a successful cycle yet. It is a planted 25 gallon tank with a gravel bottom, currently has 4 fish it in - 1 dwarf gourami and a couple cory catfish. Started out with 2 gourami's and 2 catfish, and I lost a gourami and a cat fish so I replaced those 2 with a couple more catfish to help keep the algae down. I've been treating it with seachem prime to try to keep fish from dying, and stability to try and get the cycle started. My ammonia readings are off the chart... I use the api tests which go from yellow to green, and my test are coming back a very deep blue green. In the last week or so I've also started to get brown algae. I started running ammonia chips about a week ago and it seems to have helped very slightly, but I've never gotten out of the blue range on my tests. I did get a small section of used filter from the local fish shop, thinking that I could pick up some bacteria from a known good source but it never helped either. I'm hardly feeding the fish - the catfish are just eating the algae off the tank and I feed the gourami a very small amount of food once a day. Is the fact that the ammonia so high preventing the cycle from starting? Do I need to just take all the water out of the tank, clean it and the gravel out, and try to start it up again? Thanks for the help!


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

You should do water changes to get the ammonia levels down to 1ppm or less. You have no nitrite readings? I would stop the ammonia chips, they are used to lockup the ammonia, you want ammonia to get the nitrites going which then starts the bios growing.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

if you have ammonia readings the tank is currently cycling. keep doing wc any time the ammonia or nitrIte goes over 1ppm to avoid damage to fish.


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

I am seeing 0 nitrates and nitrites. I've been doing about 20% water changes while using a gravel vacuum. The scale for the ammonia test kit I have only goes up to 8 ppm (which is dark green) and I'm past that. Should I consider completely draining the tank at this point? I have used 2 different test kits and taken water samples in to the local fish store and they've verified my readings, so it isn't from a bad test or something like that... thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate it!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Try doing 50% water changes till the ammonia goes down to safe levels. Also check your tap water for ammonia. 
You basically have to many fish in there for cycling and those fish are causing the ammonia to rise.
Also what kind of catfish are they. If they are cories they need to be fed proteins and not be eating algae.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

The usual causes of high ammonia readings are dead fish and overfeeding. Make sure you don't have eiher one of those. Make sure you are measuring your ammonia correctly. Gouramiis and catfsh are not good cycling fishes. Better are Guppies (ph>7.0) and White Mountain Clouds (ph<7.0). Stop feeding your fish and give your tank plenty of aeriation and filtration and your ammonia should begin to drop. Add some live plants in your tank, they take up ammona when they grow and give comfort to your fish.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

As I understand it you have ammonia that pegs the api test kit, has for a very long time and (although you lost a couple of fish initially) for several weeks fish are surviving. Plus the tank is planted as well.

Sounds to me like the ammonia is totally locked up. By any chance are you using a dechlorinator or "prime" or other chemical additives? You might use the ammonia multitest kit which measures total ammonia as well as free ammonia. Or try one of those in tank ammonia dots which measure just the free ammonia. The api test kit measures both types.

I would add fast growing plants like anacharis, (or wisteria, vals) and get those thriving. That will help fight the algae and consume the ammonia directly. While consuming carbon dioxide and returning food and oxygen.

Once you get the tank balanced out ammonia should drop down in a day or two. After several weeks the tank may be on the verge of doing that tomorrow. I would feel very bad advising you to take drastic measures that may upset tomorrow's ammonia drop.


my .02


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Bob,
While I can understand that you're having success with your methods, I honestly don't think your recommendation holds a teaspoon of water. While you may believe that your methods are humane and you have lots of experience, quite frankly I don't respect that experience much. It's like saying that someone that has driven a car for many years and has weekly fender-benders is an experienced driver.

The bacteria that break down ammonia will grow if there is a constant source of ammonia in the tank and thereafter will drop - I'm sure you're familiar with this. Proposing the introduction of plants to speed up the cycle is nonsense quite frankly. The bacteria will start growing as soon as there is ammonia in the tank but the colony will grow at a fixed doubling rate until ammonia drops to safe levels. Then the food that the bacteria (ammonia) thrives on will restrict their numbers.

Back to the original poster though.

If I read what you're saying right, I think that you may have overlooked one or more of the smaller steps required for cycling a tank. Things like only rinsing the filter in tank water at close to tank temperature and not over-cleaning the tank. 
Another condition that I can foresee would have a similar effect is if the pH is too low. It would be worth testing this and making sure that the pH is above 6.4. Also test the tap water.

You mention treating with Seachem Prime. I hope you are aware that conditioning tapwater is necessary for EVERY water change to the levels required to remove chloramines if there are chloramines present in the water. When in doubt, treat at this dose anyway. If you're doing water changes with untreated tapwater (and that would include aerated tapwater that is treated with chloramines), you would be killing the bacteria with this water and never getting off the ammonia spike.

The Brown algae can be treated simply by restricting the light exposure and should eventually work it's way out of the system with a bit of scrubbing from time-to-time.

The safe way forward would be to perform water changes at 50% until your ammonia levels drop to safe levels - if that involves 3 daily changes - do them. If the pH is out, you need to figure out why and sort it out.

I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing anyone here but I believe in covering all bases when it comes to saving lives.
cb


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks for the responses everyone! Ph is in line with where it should be, from what I've seen. I tested it a few days ago and it was around 7.2ish. I am conditioning the water before I add it to the tank... I was told that treating the tank with prime would lock up the ammonia to help keep my fish alive, so that's why I was treating the tank with that, in addition to using it to condition my water. I have tested my tap water as well, and it does read 0 for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. ph was in an acceptable range as well. Now just to clarify... when you say if it takes 3 daily changes, are you recommending doing 3 changes in one day? Or do 50% once a day till it gets low enough? Thanks!


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Doing 2 changes in one day should produce:
.5*.5*.5 + daily ammonia production = 12.5% of present amonia + daily production.
If your ammonia is above measurable values - then I'd guess you're above .2 ppm which is 10x what your fish can tolerate according to this:
Ammonia - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki
so 3-4 50% changes might bring it to tolerated levels - not safe levels mind you.
cb


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Arthurdent510 said:


> Thanks for the responses everyone! Ph is in line with where it should be, from what I've seen. I tested it a few days ago and it was around 7.2ish. * I am conditioning the water before I add it to the tank... I was told that treating the tank with prime would lock up the ammonia to help keep my fish alive, so that's why I was treating the tank *with that, in addition to using it to condition my water. I have tested my tap water as well, and it does read 0 for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. ph was in an acceptable range as well. Now just to clarify... when you say if it takes 3 daily changes, are you recommending doing 3 changes in one day? Or do 50% once a day till it gets low enough? Thanks!


And that is classical prime treatment.



http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html said:


> Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.


plus:



http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.htm said:


> l
> 
> (added by me for clarity)multitest ammonia test kitend added)
> 
> This kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) and free ammonia (NH3 only) down to less than 0.05 mg/L and is virtually interference free in marine and fresh water. Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. ionized Ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system.* This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert™ and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar competing products*. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, *thus giving you a false ammonia reading*.



So again I would do basically nothing but add fast growing plants. And just replace water that evaporates. In a very short time the ammonia you're measuring with the api test kit should start dropping rapidily. And if the ammonia you have was the dangerous type I feel your fish would be experiencing more distress.

Just to be sure you could use the ammonia test kit or the ammonia alert referenced above.

BTW the way I did one big screw up on my 55g marine tank years ago and got the same ammonia readings in a few hours. I treated with prime, removed fish to another tank and waited. The fish I could not remove all survived and in a week (and a day after I rinsed the filter media) ammonia did drop in a day. NitrItes then pegged the kit for for 5 days, Ph dropped from 8.4 (normal for marine tank) to 7.6 or lower, then nitrates rose to 30-40ppm for a few weeks. After that nitrates dropped down to unmeasureable levels and ph finally recovered to 8.4-8.8. So part of my comments are actually based on experience.


still just my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Take the advice for what its worth and realize where it comes from. Bob doesn't believe in water changes, so if there ever was an issue like this of course he would recommend to do nothing. You do nothing and you rsik losing your fish....thats the bottom line. If you want to let your tank ride without getting out the ammonia and want to rely on chemicals to try and keep it safe for them, your choice. But, Bob is not the guy to ask or listen to on what to do...his answer is always the same and rarely in-line with what the other 97% of the community would recommend in your case.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Arthur:

Does this ammonia test result look similiar to yours? 

It was mine during that tank crash I had. Total ammonia on the seachem multi test kit agrees with this but free ammonia tested almost unmeaureable.


Aquarium Gallery - ammonia test results after prime treatment after screwup


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

That looks pretty close... It's hard to tell an exact color from that, but my results are coming back as a very dark blue with a slight greenish tint to it. It's too dark to tell just by looking at it, but if you hold it up to a light source the color is clearly visible.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Arthurdent510 said:


> That looks pretty close... It's hard to tell an exact color from that, but my results are coming back as a very dark blue with a slight greenish tint to it. It's too dark to tell just by looking at it, but if you hold it up to a light source the color is clearly visible.


and meanwhile you are using prime and fish have lived in the tank for a few weeks and are not breathing heavy, are active, and feeding?

my .02


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

My question is this... my tank has been going about 2 months now. I've talked to a few different people, from people at the local petsmart, other aquarium owners, and actual aquarium shops, they all have said that it takes 3-4 weeks to start up, that I just need to keep waiting. I've been told over and over to just give it a few more days or another week, it'll just start up. But I haven't seen anything yet. I'm not going to say that I'm sick of waiting, because I know that doing a water change won't magically start the cycle, but if it's been 8 weeks and the tank hasn't cycled, what is wrong that it hasn't cycled yet? I've been treating the tank with Prime and Stability for at least 2 weeks now and while my fish haven't died, I still don't see any nitrites or nitrates, just a boat load of ammonia. If I haven't seen anything by this point, will waiting longer actually do me any good? My tank is heavily planted already and the plants are doing well, so I guess I don't understand how adding more plants would help since they haven't lowered ammonia at all yet... here is a picture of my tank before I added fish. The plants have gotten much taller since then


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Arthurdent510 said:


> My question is this... my tank has been going about 2 months now. I've talked to a few different people, from people at the local petsmart, other aquarium owners, and actual aquarium shops, they all have said that it takes 3-4 weeks to start up, that I just need to keep waiting. I've been told over and over to just give it a few more days or another week, it'll just start up. But I haven't seen anything yet. I'm not going to say that I'm sick of waiting, because I know that doing a water change won't magically start the cycle, but if it's been 8 weeks and the tank hasn't cycled, what is wrong that it hasn't cycled yet? I've been treating the tank with Prime and Stability for at least 2 weeks now and while my fish haven't died, I still don't see any nitrites or nitrates, just a boat load of ammonia. If I haven't seen anything by this point, will waiting longer actually do me any good? My tank is heavily planted already and the plants are doing well, so I guess I don't understand how adding more plants would help since they haven't lowered ammonia at all yet... here is a picture of my tank before I added fish. The plants have gotten much taller since then


I think the one in the center is not an aquatic plant. Most of the others as slow growers. 

I would add several bunches of anacharis and several vals. the faster growing plants should keep ammonia in line.

my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

tank looks nice BTW


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

If it were me I would remove the ammo lock carbon, in fact I dont use carbon at all its basically useless unless your trying to remove medications. Do two 50 % water changes a day untill you get ammonia down to below 1ppm, then just try to keep it under 1ppm untill nitrites spike up. Only chemical I would use is conditioner for the water your adding. Are you rinsing out the filter media?


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

I just saw this:
SeaChem Prime
FAQ no 2 shows that some nitrate tests don't register correctly with the use of prime and you should not really be using a salicylate test kit.
cb


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

clep.berry said:


> I just saw this:
> SeaChem Prime
> FAQ no 2 shows that some *nitrate* tests don't register correctly with the use of prime and you should not really be using a salicylate test kit.
> cb


I presume you mean ammonia.

and yes that is correct. Prime (and other dechloranators) lock up ammonia but with most test kits like the api test kit you still test and finds ammonia.

the danger is you add more prine, still test ammonia and so on. All the while ammonia has been locked and safe(r). Meanwhile prime (and other dechlors) also lock up oxygen so the fish can suffocate. And msds on some specifically states the dechlors are dangerous to aquadic life and to not dispose of in lakes and streams.

Which is why I posted the prime and seachem web sites on page one.

By contrast fast growing plants will rapidily consume any ammonia present while consuming carbon dioxide and returning oxygen.

But that's just me and my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I presume you mean ammonia.
> 
> and yes that is correct. Prime (and other dechloranators) lock up ammonia but with most test kits like the api test kit you still test and fins ammonia.
> 
> ...


If there is a filter on this tank there is a constant supply of oxygen that happens 24/7. This person would NEVER be in any risk of suffocating anything short of dumping and entire bottle. Prime is completely gone out of your tank in less than 24hrs.

Plants, although do provide oxygen to the tank, only provide the oxygen while the light is on and will not match the amount of oxygen provided by the plants. In fact, just ample surface movement will provide more than enough oxygen to any tank using any brand of dechlor.

The issue you mention of using dechlors only potentially exist in a tank that has no filter or is stagnet. Like the one in your link.


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

So an update on where we're at... I did 2 50% water changes over the weekend and ammonia readings are now back in to the green. I'd say they're at about 4ppm now. Nitrite and nitrate are still at 0ppm. I'll probably do another water change at 50% tonight, then I'll start up treatment with stability again and see if I can finally get the cycle to start...


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Arthurdent510 said:


> So an update on where we're at... I did 2 50% water changes over the weekend and ammonia readings are now back in to the green. I'd say they're at about 4ppm now. Nitrite and nitrate are still at 0ppm. I'll probably do another water change at 50% tonight, then I'll start up treatment with stability again and see if I can finally get the cycle to start...


sound like you're on your way.

I would not use the stabiliby but that's just me.

FWIW the ammonia->nitrIte->nitrate cycle is based upon bacteria only.

Plants will consume the ammonia directly.


So with enough plants it is expected to not see ammonia nor nitrIte spikes but a possible initial nitrate spike. Because the plants are consuming the ammonia the bacteria is not consuming. Then as aerobic bacteria builds up and consume ammonia, nitrates will drop because the plants at that point are consuming nitrate for their nitrogen.

So with plants you get a different cycle. Which is safe for your fish with no chemicals like stabiliby being added.

my .02


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## bembring (Mar 22, 2012)

For water changes I use Kordon NovaAqua and Kordon Amquel.
If you need to get you bacteria going try Night Out 2 I used it only needed one dose.
I also bought APT Quick Start but didn't need to use it.

Hope this helps you.


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## Tiari (Apr 25, 2012)

Maybe I can offer some insight. I had this same problem going on in a 20 gallon tank, which would not cycle, for nearly 6 months. The ammonia levels read off the charts, fish would die, get ick, and all sorts of diseases, the only survivor of this episode was one african dwarf frog.

It took me ages and ages, of repetitive water changes, meticulous cleaning, and still skyrocket high ammonia levels and no cycle. I actually had to go outside aquarium information and talk to someone with chemistry experience to get my answer.

I ask you, What is your PH?

If your PH is 6.4 or lower, registering quite low on the API test kit charts, you'll have your answer. Beneficial bacteria stalls in low PH environments when combined with temperature. The PH is just too low to cultivate the beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia, being just too acidic.

Once a cycle is established, it can handle a lower Ph, but not before.

If your PH is low DO NOT USE PH buffering agents, like PH up or PH 7. They simply will not work and wreak havoc on your tank. It may be costly, but buy a bag of crushed coral and small filter mesh bags. Start by using one or two teaspoons in a filter bag placed into your filter, and monitor the ph. Adjust the amount of coral until you slowly reach a PH of around 7, it doesn't have to be exact. Do not be tempted to stuff a lot of coral in there for quick effect, it will shock the daylights out of your fish.

Of note, raising the PH will "unlock" the bound ammonia in the tank, so make sure to use plenty of prime in the water to deal with this.

If your ph was low, with the skyrocket high ammonia sitting pegged max for two months, I nearly guarantee after correcting the PH with crushed coral, your cycle will zoom through in about a week.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

pH is around 7.2 as mentioned previously in the thread. I would have picked up on it which is why I asked if pH is inline with expectations.
cb


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## Tiari (Apr 25, 2012)

Oops, sorry missed that.


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## Arthurdent510 (Mar 29, 2012)

Just wanted to give an update, I checked all the levels in my tank today and it is finally cycling! Ammonia is dropping, and I'm starting to see nitrate and nitrite. Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I appreciate it!


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