# Ready for bigger tank! 55 Gallon Planted??



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

I am wanting to get another tank. Was thinking around 40-55 gallons. Is it neccessary for a sump system (not sure what it is called?) I only use live plants and take excellent care of the tank I have now. Also, when looking for new tanks what should I look for, being that they are so big I want to be sure I get what I am supposed to. I know I will be using an AquaClear filter, and probably eco-complete substrate. Any info would be very much appreciated! 

Ashleigh


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> I am wanting to get another tank. Was thinking around 40-55 gallons. Is it neccessary for a sump system (not sure what it is called?) I only use live plants and take excellent care of the tank I have now. Also, when looking for new tanks what should I look for, being that they are so big I want to be sure I get what I am supposed to. I know I will be using an AquaClear filter, and probably eco-complete substrate. Any info would be very much appreciated!
> 
> Ashleigh


IMHO you don't need a sump system any any tank most especially a FW planted setup.

FWIW I am running a 55g using the link my signature. You might want to take a look at that.


my .02


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

I already have! So inspiring! Thank you, I think I read that months ago when it was first posted!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The AC filter you plan should be sufficient providing it is the right one for the tank you get. A sump is a completely different type of filtration.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Yes, I always get a bigger filter than what is reccomended. I have an AquaClear 50 on my 15 gallon right now. 

Also....at what point do you have to do CO2...not really understanding that too much...


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> I already have! So inspiring! Thank you, I think I read that months ago when it was first posted!


I guess this old guy tends to repeat himselv. *old dude

Glad you read already.

On co2 from what I hear plants in the envoronment I have tend to be co2 limited as reflected in the high pH my tank experience. Like 8.4-8.8 api high range test kit. What I have found is that with lotsa fish and by controling the nusiance algaes through limited lighting and feeding the plants last for years.

But some use co2 which brings down the pH and you can use higher lights with less algae/cyano problems.

I just found out what worked for me so don't use co2 additions.

still just my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ashleigh said:


> Also....at what point do you have to do CO2...not really understanding that too much...


The need for CO2 is light driven - nothing more. If your light is of a high enough power then there is a demand for more CO2 to keep up with what the plant needs. The two basic things a plant needs is light and CO2. If you do not keep up with that demand the plant will suffer and once it's health is comprimised BBA can cover the plant and eventually choke the light out and kill it.

From a plant growing aspect, CO2 is a great addition to a planted tank. Those that have never tried it don't know what they are missing or just how healthy plants can really be. Growth rates, colors, strength, etc... are all greatly improved in the plant. So even if you don't need per se, your plants would love you for using it.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

I'm sorry...BBA??

co2 sounds pretty interesting. How would I go about it?? I seem to have the need for it, even in the tank I have now.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

IMO plants need three things, of which Ben mentioned two. The two are light and CO2, but the third is macro and micro nutrients, which can be obtained easiest through good substrate (unless you have floating plants, which require that theirs be suspended in the water).

For CO2, natural concentrations of CO2 in water are around 3 ppm, with the result being that aquatic plants are almost always CO2 starved. Easy ways to keep this level as close to 3 ppm as possible (since the plants will naturally try and lower it), is to agitate the surface of your tank water either with a bubbler, a powerhead, or a filter whose outlet is above the surface of the tank water, so there's splashing. That will break up the surface tension of the water and promote better gas exchange, which is how CO2 is naturally dissolved into the water.

Another way is to artificially boost levels of CO2 in the water using CO2 injection. There are three main ways to do this. One is to use a yeast fermentation system, where CO2 is generated by yeast fermenting sugar in a reactor, which is then dissolved into the water. This is the least expensive, however it is the most maintenance-intensive (the yeast solution loses effectiveness within a month or less and needs to be replaced) and it is the least effective, making it very ill-suited for large tanks like a 55 gallon. The second way is a pressurized system using paintball CO2 cylinders. This is the middle ground between cost-effectiveness and efficiency. The CO2 cylinders are small and not very highly pressurized, so they empty quickly on large tanks as well. A fully pressurized system, using a 5# or 10# (# = pound) cylinder can easily last a year on a 55 gallon tank and you can easily dissolve up to 30 ppm of CO2 into the tank using proper reactors or diffusers like ceramic plate diffusers.

Artificially high levels of CO2 are useless, however, without proper lighting and fertilization (as Ben stated). T5HO lighting, very strong (and cheap) industrial shop lighting, or such things as VHO CFL bulbs should be combined with CO2 and good substrate like Oil Dry, Safe-T-Sorb, Eco Complete, Fluorite, etc. to fully utilize the CO2 injection. This is where we get into the so-called "high tech" setups where enthusiasts even go so far as to dose their tanks with dry chemical fertilizers on top of the three things mentioned above.

Beaslbob's methods are very "low tech", as in they do not implement CO2, fancy lighting, fertilizers (aside from marginally successful substrate), and he goes so far as to not even use filters (though, from most of the sources I use planted tanks benefit from having circulation for many biological reasons surrounding plant health). With that being said, Bob's tanks are VERY easy to maintain, but as they are low tech, the range of plants (and fish, in some cases) that you can have are very limited. For a beginner, I would say Bob's ways are easiest, but I would imagine as you become more confident in your aquarium keeping skills you will quickly become bored and end up upgrading.

Sorry for the exposition, I'll shush now


----------



## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Pls continue to do your own research, IMO, I have tried and dislike Eco-complete. At least the bag i received. To the touch, it is coarse and *sharp*, and I believe is causing harm to my bottom fish. (corys, yoyo loaches) 2) it is relitivly light. Ie, it is poor at holding plants in it. (when 1st planting.) It is inert. So you must add ferts to the tank so that it can suck up the nutrients, so that it can deliever that to the plant roots.
Just my opinion and experience. I won't use it again.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> I'm sorry...BBA??
> 
> co2 sounds pretty interesting. How would I go about it?? I seem to have the need for it, even in the tank I have now.


Black beard algae. plants have a black hair algae growth that looks like a beard.

i think

lol


my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ashleigh said:


> I'm sorry...BBA??
> 
> co2 sounds pretty interesting. How would I go about it?? I seem to have the need for it, even in the tank I have now.


For a 15g, just look for the DIY method in the DIY section. Fairly easy to setup and doesn't cost very much to get going.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

FishFlow said:


> Pls continue to do your own research, IMO, I have tried and dislike Eco-complete. At least the bag i received. To the touch, it is coarse and *sharp*, and I believe is causing harm to my bottom fish. (corys, yoyo loaches) 2) it is relitivly light. Ie, it is poor at holding plants in it. (when 1st planting.) It is inert. So you must add ferts to the tank so that it can suck up the nutrients, so that it can deliever that to the plant roots.
> Just my opinion and experience. I won't use it again.


Yours and mine experience with Eco are 180 out. I have 3 tanks with it and 4 different species of Corys and have never had an issue causing injury. I actually like the plant holding ability....maybe you don't have anything to compare it to. Try getting specialty blends that fly all over the place just by waving your hand - there you can imagine how tough it would be to keep a plant in the substrate with water movement pulling it out. Nearly all substrates are inert unless you make some MTS or pay an arm and a leg.

And FWIW, when I mentioned that the 2 basic things plants need are CO2 and light, I meant if you remove either the plant dies.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

I was going to go with eco complete because I thought it would be easy to vacuum...you do still have to vacuum it, right? 

I have a 15 gallon tank right now with (I think) a 15w suncoral light...I want to get something stronger...I think that may be why some of my plants are turning yellow. And I downgraded my bubbler....which (I just learned) means less co2, so I will be getting a bigger one again. Right now in my tank I just have gravel, but was going to replace it with eco complete. I also do 50% water changes weekly (because my tank is overstocked) and vacuum, clean sides. it seems if I wait to long algae will get on the glass..but that's normal, right?? A few months ago my anacharis completely died off...wierd, right?? now, that I think about it...it could be from a lack of co2. This happened right around the time I down sized my bubbler. 

Right now I haven 4 mondo grass (which I know a lot of people on here are against, but I love it and don't seem to have any problem with it) anubias, java fern, banana plant, white arrowhead, moneywort (I think), and a couple of some type of tall sword with white on the inside of it's leaves. 

My fish consist of 5 tiger barbs, flying fox, 2 platies, a few neons, and 2 corys...which I hate because they don't do thier job all they do is hide in the cave.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Ashleigh said:


> my plants are turning yellow


15 Watts over 15 gallons, depending on the type of light, is med-low lighting. It should suffice for most of those plants. The yellowing sounds more like lack of nutrients, especially because you vacuum your gravel. In a planted tank you don't want to vacuum, as your plants actually benefit more from dirty substrate. And you will not want to vacuum with Eco Complete, Fluorite, Floramax, etc. because there are many fine particles that would be sucked up and clog your siphon. And with sand, clay, or any layered substrate arrangement, you definitely don't want to vacuum as you will mess up the layering.


----------



## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Yours and mine experience with Eco are 180 out. I have 3 tanks with it and 4 different species of Corys and have never had an issue causing injury. I actually like the plant holding ability....maybe you don't have anything to compare it to. Try getting specialty blends that fly all over the place just by waving your hand - there you can imagine how tough it would be to keep a plant in the substrate with water movement pulling it out. Nearly all substrates are inert unless you make some MTS or pay an arm and a leg.
> 
> And FWIW, when I mentioned that the 2 basic things plants need are CO2 and light, I meant if you remove either the plant dies.


Yea, it was nothing like all the raves I read about it. Is yours course to the touch? I probably got a bad batch. I did order the product from a west coast distributer. Dispite my hate for it, the plants in that tank grow like weeds. It is dirt capped w/ eco, full EI and pressurized co2.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

> In a planted tank you don't want to vacuum


Oh....I didn't know that! So I will stop vacuuming! I hate it anyways....cuz the tube ends up pulling some of my plants up. So, every time I vacuum I have to replant too...it sucks!  

Do you think I need to worry about co2 now??


----------



## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I am going to go against the flow here and say I like non CO2 tanks. I like to play with my tanks but sometimes I have a busy week and I like to be able to more or less ignore my tanks for a few days without it causing problems. CO2 involves more plant growth but also more plant trimming, more light, more dosing, more water changes, more time, more expense. 

It really depends what you want. Low tech tanks can be lush and striking with a little planning and patience. High tech does give more options and faster growth. I suggest you google for info and pics of low tech and high tech tanks and see what seems like it will suit you.


----------



## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

FishFlow said:


> Yea, it was nothing like all the raves I read about it. Is yours course to the touch? I probably got a bad batch. I did order the product from a west coast distributer. Dispite my hate for it, the plants in that tank grow like weeds. It is dirt capped w/ eco, full EI and pressurized co2.


I use eco complete and noticed that it was very rough as well. I top mine with a thin layer of gravel to avoid hurting my dwarf chain loaches barbels and also because I prefer the lighter colored substrate. When your plants get firmly rooted they seem to root more strongly in the eco complete, but the first stages yes, they can get uprooted relatively easily.

To the OP, if the CO2 injection stuff seems a lot to take in, you can also look at medium lighting. It's more of a balancing act between feeding, planting density, planting types, surface agitation, and lighting, but you can get away without CO2 once you find the right balance. It also really helps if you make sure to do 30-50% water changes weekly (which hopefully you're doing anyways). Once you get your bearings you can always upgrade to CO2 and regular fertilizing to really help your plants take off. 

And yes, definitely stop with the substrate vacuums, as you're not only uprooting and sucking up the plants nutrients, but also because most plants seem to do poorly when they have any water movement over their roots. This is why most planted tanks do not use under-gravel filters.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Is there a way to test how much co2 is in the tank? and the micro and macro nutrients??


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

So I think I may have found a decent tank at a great price on Craigslist! 

55 gallon aquarium and stand and fish

Thoughts?

The filter is a whisper 60...which will work until I get a different one. The heater is brand new. It comes with some tetras, which is nice. So, really all I will need is substrate and plants! 

And I am going for low-tech, I did my research.  So, no co2 for me, at least right now. Between my business, and my two toddlers running circles around my feet I just don't think I will have the time or patience.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> So I think I may have found a decent tank at a great price on Craigslist!
> 
> 55 gallon aquarium and stand and fish
> 
> ...


looks good to me.

Only why go all the way to Greece?





( *r2 )

Looks like if you add 1" peat moss, wet.level, and clean then 1" of play sand, wet level, and clean again then use that gravel, and then add anacharis, vals, wisteria, amazon swords, some small potted plants, then refill the tank and reintroduce the fish syou should be all set.

But then I have run on sentences. *old dude

best tank ever.

anyone with toddlers has patience (even if they're not a doctor. *old dude)

still just my .02


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for the advice! 

So...how can I tell that my plants aren't getting the nutrients they need, other than yellowing? Is there a test I can do or something?


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Another question....is a sump(?) neccessary for a large planted tank??


----------



## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Sumps usually aren't used on planted tanks due to their tendency to de-gas the CO2 you're typically injecting. Since you're not going the CO2 injection route, it doesn't matter if you use one. Most people prefer canister filters for large tanks, but its all personal preference as long as its strong enough to get the job done.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> Another question....is a sump(?) neccessary for a large planted tank??


In a word.

No.

Actually sumps are never necessary in any tank.

But even with that most larger and a lot of smaller marine tanks do use them and some Fw as well.

With planted tanks the plants themselves provide and excellent environment even with no filters. So therefore filters are optional and sumps even more optional.

That said in systems where the livestock attacks and eats the plants then some kind of refugium to protect those plants is helpful if not all out necessary. This is especially true of marine setups where instead of actual plants macro algaes are used and consumed by just about all the livestock. Some of which is added for the express purpose of eating algae. 

A refugium can be a hang on back container, sump type, or even just a in tank partition. Basically anything to keep the llivestock and plants/algae seperated.

Finally, sumps pump water from one open container to another open container so require careful setup to prevent floods. While that is possible it does add complexity to the system.

Just some rambling thoughs.

Worth at most .02


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Substrate wise....

I'm nervous to use peat moss....I've heard it gets really messy?? If it doesn't get all that messy then I like Bob's idea for peat moss then sand then the rocks. 

But I was also thinking about using 2 bags eco-complete and 2 bags safe t sorb and mixing them together. Then rocks on top of that. 

Thoughts?? 

I will be picking up my new tank tonight and hopefully hitting a fish store (or any other store I need to stop at) on the way...

Thanks for all the info! Yall have been a give help! For now I will be going with a no sump pump and no co2 route, but may try it in the future!


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> Substrate wise....
> 
> *I'm nervous to use peat moss....I've heard it gets really messy?? If it doesn't get all that messy then I like Bob's idea for peat moss then sand then the rocks. *
> But I was also thinking about using 2 bags eco-complete and 2 bags safe t sorb and mixing them together. Then rocks on top of that.
> ...


If you "trap" the peat moss under the sand then the tank is almost crystal clear right from the start. Otherwise you do get a big cloudy mess. but even then with no circulation no filter it all settles down in a few days.

best tank ever.

my .02


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

In my experience, after using a 1" layer of peat moss under my substrate, it did nothing to regulate the water and added no nutrient value for my plants. Only thing it did do is when I swapped it out for some mineralized topsoil, it made a horrible stench. Almost killed my African Dwarf Frogs as well, since they thought it was pretty tasty but gave them horrible bloat.

Bob's usefulness for peat probably comes from the fact that he does no water changes, hence large amounts of peat in the substrate can affect change in the water over time. But for any of us that do regular PWC's, the only time I've ever seen peat be used effectively is when it is put in a mesh bag in the filter.

You're better off going with the Eco/STS mix in my opinion. Less fuss and more beneficial to your plants.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ashleigh said:


> Substrate wise....
> 
> I'm nervous to use peat moss....I've heard it gets really messy?? If it doesn't get all that messy then I like Bob's idea for peat moss then sand then the rocks.
> 
> ...


I like the Eco and STS idea, but 1-$5 bag of STS is enough for 3-4" in a 75g tank, so you'd only need 1 bag or actually about 1/2. It requires a LOT of rinsing. Eco requires zero. Eco is the easiest stuff I have ever used. Its ease nearly makes up for any other shortcomings it may have, but it does cost a few bucks. Get it through PETCO online and spend the amount thatgets you free shipping and you'll save some money.

I sort of believe along the lines of what Gizmo stated. Peat is largely an unnecessary hassle that doesn't need to be gone through to have a planted tank. Big layers of it rot and specifically NOT recommended by people like Walstad.


----------



## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

You have to keep in mind the purpose of the peat moss too... It's usually used for softening water that is naturally too hard. If your water is naturally soft, peat moss will make it even softer, to the detriment of the tank. I ran into that problem myself when I tried Bob's methods. Also, my plants roots started rotting when they got down to the peat layer due to the acidic nature of the peat. Worked great the first couple months, but my tank has been much happier and easier to work with when I swapped to eco-complete and regular water changes. The fish are much more active too, compared to before where they sorta just hovered constantly.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Yes, peat moss just sounds like too much hassle.  

And I'm not thrilled with what sounds like tons and tons of rinsing with safe-t-sorb....

So what if I did eco complete, then sand, then a thin layer of rocks? I like the layering....think it would be cool looking through the glass. But is the sand obsolete?? Should I just do eco complete and rocks instead? I was also thinking sand to be a bit more cost effective, but If it is obsolete then I can do without.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Omg! So sorry about all the typos! Was typing from my phone!


----------



## Hooperman42 (Oct 23, 2011)

I'd also strongly consider a bio type hang on back filter set up. I use and I know it's overkill two marineland bio wheel 350 units which afford an entire eight cartridges or other material and four large bio wheels. If not bio wheels .....and people love em or hate em...then some form of bio filter ... Have only lost one fish in my 55 and that was a betta due to a betta disease. Water is prestine. But I gave up on planted much to the amazement of most people and have entirely silk plants with loaches, corys, a few tetras rasboras and a happy angel ...non complain and all are well and happy. For me it's so much easier. Note when I had the betta I only had the bottom dwellers of course.

I might add that I love the look of salt water t5 bulbs and with the fake plants I can get that look with ATI blue and blue plus (which is a pure white). Both 48 inch bulbs. Plus I didn't want the Co2 fuss.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> Is there a way to test how much co2 is in the tank? and the micro and macro nutrients??


pH and KH give some indication of co2. Lower pH higher co2

macro nutrients are measured with ammonia/nitrats/phosphates. micro less tests and less important but iron can be limiting some times.

my .02


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> pH and KH give some indication of co2. Lower pH higher co2
> 
> macro nutrients are measured with ammonia/nitrats/phosphates. micro less tests and less important but iron can be limiting some times.
> 
> my .02


The kh/ph chart you refer to doesn't work and it is not an indication of much of anything. Or better, if you are using this to track CO2 content in your tank...it doesn't work.

Macros are your NPK or nitrates, phosphates, and potassium. You can test for the first two with available kits, but not sure on potassium or even if you would want to. 

Micros are calcium, magnesium.....stuff found in normal tap water. No need to test for these.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Okay, so I found a new tank, not the one I posted earlier in the week....

It's a 55 gallon, with 150w heater, Aquatech 30-60 (which I have never used before..but it is huge), Penguin Bio-Wheel 150. 

It came with smaller sized natural looking gravel, a couple lava rocks (which I may or may not keep in there), some plants, and quite a few fish. 

I picked it up this weekend and set it up and started introducing the fish back in today. You can tell he had an algae explosion a while ago...some of the plants had some black looking algae on them and were very thin and just not healthy looking. Some had new shoots, so I was able to save what I could. 

The hood it came with is a piece of junk. I mean, it works, it's just crap. And it came with a 40 watt (?!?) bulb. I know for low tech planted tanks they usually require 1.5-2w per gallon. Right?? 

The only thing is I have no idea what to get! Could I just get two smaller hoods and put powerful lights in them, or is that even possible? Or should I get a glass hood with the light fixture that sits over the tank? I am on a budget, but I also want to get something that works vs. something that doesn't. 

Also...I was really set on using the eco-complete...but after doing some more research I have found that with eco-complete, it works great until it's not "complete" anymore. So would sticking with the gravel that is in the tank work? I use API Leaf Zone weekly, and dose what the label says. 

Any suggestions would be muich appreciated!


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> Okay, so I found a new tank, not the one I posted earlier in the week....
> 
> It's a 55 gallon, with 150w heater, Aquatech 30-60 (which I have never used before..but it is huge), Penguin Bio-Wheel 150.
> 
> ...


Well it looks like you got a project. *old dude

Yes low light planted tank do require 1.5-2 w/g but can be done lower. 2 40w 4' tubes would be 80w and just about right. 4 32w t-8 tubes would be 128w or just over 2w/g. hence my use of 2 shop lights from home depot.

You probably could reuse the gravel but I like the peat moss/sand/pc select (or gravel) layers.


but still all that is just my .

.02


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

shop lights? Like the ones hanging in my garage??


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

Would something like this work?? Odyssea T5 Aquarium Lighting

Is it neccessary that I have two lights?? I've been doing some researching and I read somewhere that I could go with a single T5HO light with a good reflector...


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Ashleigh said:


> shop lights? Like the ones hanging in my garage??


Yep.

Only with narrower reflectors.


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ashleigh said:


> Would something like this work?? Odyssea T5 Aquarium Lighting
> 
> Is it neccessary that I have two lights?? I've been doing some researching and I read somewhere that I could go with a single T5HO light with a good reflector...


This is too much light, unless you plan to go with CO2. A single T5HO bulb would work, just not two.

Shop lights will work, but most don't come with very good reflectors. A 3 or 4 (32W T8) bulb fixture would work great for that tank.


----------



## Ashleigh (Dec 30, 2011)

I think I may go with this one....

Freshwater Aqualight T5 Dual Fluorescent Light - 48 in. | ThatPetPlace.com

It is a T5NO 28x2 

I just want to be sure that if I were to do floating plants that this light would still be enough to reach the plants on the bottom. I don't want the entire surface covered in plants, but just enough to look beautifully natural. 

I also found this amazing piece of driftwood while the hubby and I were out fishing the other day! It had washed up sometime over the winter so I didn't even have to get my tootsies wet.  It is too big to boil so I laid it in the bath tub with rocks holding it down and poured boiling water over it. I did that twice. Other than that it has been soaking on and off in the tub with hot tap water. I read about doing the fingernail trick to see if it is hardwood or soft wood, but in some spots my nail won't even go into the wood and in others it leaves a slight mark. Still not sure if if it is hard or soft. ?? But I really want to use it!! I will attach a couple pis to see what yall think!


----------

