# New SW setup



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Hello all, I am new to SW tanks although I have had FW tanks for years. I eventually want to convert one of my 55G to a SW but for now, due to money and other pets, I want to start out with a 10G. I posted on another forum and got some good advice but I figure the more advice from different people the better. I have been doing alot of reading and started planning the setup. I have tons of tanks and tons of stuff like heaters and power heads so I am going to use one of my 10G with a HOB filter and a florecent tank light. I am starting out with sand and 8-10 lbs of live rock then once its cycled I want maybe 2 small clowns and the cleaning crew. 

From reading online I guess all live rock needs to be added first then let the cycling end then add the cleaning crew then fish. I am not planning on any type of coral at this time, maybe in the future. in a 10g tank about how much water evaporates a day? Do I need to top it off daily? or when it drops below a certain amount. The LPS sell water and they are really close to the house so getting RO water isnt hard at all. 

A lot of people say for newbies NOT to start out with a small tank but I want a SW and dont want to spend the money converting my 55g yet. Other than patients and lots of research does anyone have good advice for me just getting started with a 10G tank?


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

10 gallons is pretty small, but since u plan to include LR u should be ok with bi-weekly to weekly water changes. a good idea is to use an HOB (preferably an aquaclear) and make it into a refugium. than use an HOB protein skimmer. for that tank, tunze nano protein skimmer and sapphire nanoskimmers are good but expensive.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for the input. I know a 10G is going to be harder to maintain because its smaller but I cant afford to buy all the stuff for the 55G and I figure if I can handle a 10G then I can handle a 55g next year or sooner. I am prepared for the extra work I will need to do for maintenance. I know I will have to do weekly-biweekly changes of about 2G each time and top off with RO water but how often do I top it off? Does that need to be done daily?

I have a whisper 20 that was on my 20g long that I was planning on using for this setup. I dont know if its big enough to use as a refugium or even how to set one up lol. Time for some more research. The only other HOB I have that I can use is a Whisper 3 and its huge and on my 55G. It may be too big.

I havent looked into protien skimmers yet but that no big deal since so far all I have to buy is water and LR. I read somewhere that you dont use the protien skimmer till after it's cycled so I have plenty of time to get one.

Also I have a top-light that holds a florencent bulb and two screw in bulbs facing each other. Its the width of my 10G and covers all but 1-1.5 inches of the back, just enough room for my HOB and wires. Would that work for a reef system if I decide to do that in the future? Maybe I just need to post a pick if you dont know what I am talking about.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi, 
You would need to watch the evaporation like a hawk . Losing just two liters of water can make the SG raise much higher than your fish can handle. I strongly advise getting a auto top off system when running such a small setup.
As for your lighting it all depends on what you want to keep in the tank. some corals and inverts have there own needs as far as lighting go's. so research research research lol.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok nevermind about the light fixture I mentioned, its for a terrarium. I have all my reptile and fish stuff in the same room. If I decide to get anything other than fish I will look into new lighting.

As far as evaporation I can imagine that 1/2 a gallon would make a huge difference. I was just wondering about how much can evaporate in a day. I dont have a problem with topping it off every day. Maybe I will set it up with tap water for a week or two and see how much evapoation I get. That way I can mark my levels to know how much to remove when doing water changes also.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

You could try that however fresh water isn't as dense as salt water. so saltwater evaporates much faster. also you should take temperature into account. room temperature fluctuates up and down all the time so the effect that has on your aquarium water will be almost impossible to judge. that's why a auto top-off is a must for saltwater aquariums and even moor so when the aquarium is so small. Its a common opinion that a nano or aquarium lass than 55gallon is far harder to maintain good water chemistry than in a larger system.
I purchased a float switch that activates a pump in a receptacle containing RO/DI water and have rid myself of this problem all together


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

as far as the evaporation goes i have a 29gal SW tank with an open top, i lose anywhere between 1 to 1.5 gallons per day


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I set my tank up this weekend with tap water to test for leaks, shorts and evaporation amounts. I also went to the LFS and talked to the "expert" that works there to get her opinion also. She was suprisingly patient with me when i told her what I wanted to do. I told her what I already read online and she filled in the blanks and gave her opinion in some areas. She did say that the Whisper 20 is not near big enough, probably for the reason you said that saltwater is more dense, and I needed a bigger one. I have an Emperor 280 that was on my 55g and she said that would be fine. They also had cured live rock for $7/lb and thats almost half the price of the other LFS a lttle farther away (not to mention the other LFS doesnt look like it knows how to take care of their animals). She also said on a tank that small to do 4g/week changes which seemed a little extreme to me but I also know that a 10g needs more maintenance. 

I got home yesterday and put the Emperor 280 on and I have a line marked on my tank where the water level was as of 5 PM yesterday and I will see at 5 PM today how much evaporated. I think 1 gallon in that tank is about 1 & 1/8 inch so I will measure today and see what hapened.

Hopefully in two weeks I will get the LR and sand then start cycling my tank. She said once it is cycled then I can put the cleaning crew and two small clowns in there.

Billythefish, can you show me a pic of what you have for top-offs? This tank may become a permanent fixture in our living room until we buy our new house so anything to help would be nice. Thanks.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

here's a link to the float switch. all I had to add to this was a tub to hold the RO/DI water... a slow retern pump with hose and a lid cut to make it air tight. 
I got mine from the uk but the same product can be found from the US.

Aquarium Float Switch with Suction Mounting Bracket on eBay, also, Industrial Automation Control, Electrical Test Equipment, Business, Office Industrial (end time 27-May-09 17:02:03 BST)


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Aquarium Float Switch with Suction Mounting Bracket on eBay, also, Industrial Automation Control, Electrical Test Equipment, Business, Office Industrial (end time 27-May-09 17:02:03 BST)


THIS LINK WORKS LOL


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

thanks for the link. I may look into that. The only problem I see is I cant get my stupid suction cups on the power head to stick to the tank, how can I trust that suction cup on the float?


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

The switch I got seems fine. but you could glue it with silicon to be safe


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok since Petlover mentioned a ref and I have been reading alot more on reef systems I started looking into making one. I found alot of info on making my own sump with ref in it from an old 10G tank. My stand will hold 2 10G tanks, one up top and one down near the floor. I was going to have the front part be the ref and the back part be for the protien skimmer and return pump. I have read about either a refugium/sump or a wet/dry sump but seen very little of both a wet/dry and refugium sump. Is this because there is just no room in the tank for both? If I do this I would build an attachment on top for the bio-balls then it would drain into the ref then into the skimmer chamber then the return pump. 

If I had this setup would I still need the HOB filter? 

If I build the ref/sump and added it to an existing tank would the cycle process start all over? 

Is this a good skimmer? CPR Bak-Pak Protein Skimmer

Keep in mind I am just researching and getting ideas for the future. I will be establishing my FOWLR first and constantly learning more. Oppinions are encouraged please.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Hay.
I'm also embarking on my first full marine system, And after 3years of constant research I've come to the conclusion that wet-dry filters are fine for fish only systems but are somewhat redundant when using live rock, However I have included a wet-dry on my sump just to help lesson the amount of micro bubbles that the drain line from the main displays overflow produces ''And it dose help alot''. 
In my opinion FOWLR systems run just fine along with a protein skimmer and regular cleaning of the sand, because the magic is all in the live rock. 
I also have at present a small fluval 2 plus with active carbon in it to help remove discolouration that my uncured live rock is producing, I will remove it when the ammonia test result hits 0, I think this small carbon filter will come in handy from time to time and would advise having something like this to hand yourself.
Refugiums are a place for you to grow micro algae and things that would get eaten by your fish and can be very good at filtering your water, but I don't think you would need one for a small system with live rock, Plus you would have to light the sump so your refugiums inhabitants can grow. 
Adding a refugium/sump to a existing setup wont restart the cycle but the refugium part will take time to grow and thus be effective.
Ive never heard of that protein skimmer but it would appear to have been given good feed back on that site.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks. I was thinking alot about it and different people say different things. Some say have the protien skimmer first then the refugium then the return and others say have the ref and skimmer on opposite sides of the return pump with a split pvc pipe sending water to both sides from the display tank. I think I have an idea to feed water to the skimmer then have it drain in two dirrections. It will drain half to the ref and half to a smaller wet/dry then from both of those it will drain to the return pump where the top-off float will be. I will have a light on it for the micro algae.

I am doing FOWLR now but I do want to do anemones and coral later so thats why I am looking into the ref/sump. Plus I love to build stuff and make it work so this seemed like a great benificial project. Let me get some drawings up and then let me know what you think.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

What I plan is for it to drain from the tank to the intake on the top right then split off to the refugium and wet/dry. Then both the refugium and wet/dry will drain into the return pump chamber. I will have a HOB skimmer sucking out of the intake chamber and returning to the wet/dry. I am not sure how big exactly the wet/dry will be or how many bio-balls I will use but I will have some sort of filter on top to catch larger particals and help the water spread evenly accross the wet/dry. I dont know how big it should be but I figure this is better than no wet/dry at all.

For my 10G display tank how many GPH will I need and what pump can I use that will fit in the 4"x8" area for the pump?

I have spent hours upon hours reading and researching these things to come up with this idea. Any other opinions are more than welcome, in fact they are encouraged. Thanks!


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

if u plan on splitting the sections up using glass dividers, be sure to make the 1 on the wet/dry shorter than the one before it. using the pic as a reesource, u should make the divide to the right higher. this way the water trickles down, thus oxygenating the water very well. actually the last 2 sketches are a little confusing, im not sure if u have already planned this. for the refugium, i recomend macroalgae, not microalgae. macroalgae and seaweed are pretty much the same thing. in fact, i believe seaweed is a type of macroalgae.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I am planning on using macroalgae. If I put micro somewhere else it was a mistake. I am planning on putting Chaetomorpha in the ref for now and maybe something else but I am not sure.

The bottom right image is looking at the tank from the rear. I updated the picture to show the wet/dry on the rear view. The water enters from the display tank on the left side where it says intake. It then goes out to the ref and also over the edge to the wet/dry. It does not look like it is low enough but the HOB skimmer will also be dumping from the intake chamber to the wet/dry. The top of the wet/dry is angled down to the right so the water flows downward as well as through holes on the wet/dry. I will probably cut the devider lower between the intake and wet/dry and have some means of blocking flow if there is too much. Either that or I will cut slits in the devider until flow is accurate. I just want to make sure the ref gets enough flow also.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

I like what you have come up with for your design, Just a one thing that could be a problem, sealing the individual chambers will prove somewhat difficult given the size of the sump, what I'm saying is you may have trouble getting your hand in to seal it all.

Other than that just keep in mined you may need room in the future for reactors like co2, calcium, alk reactor etc when you change to a full reef system.

I went for a far more simple sump but still have room to move and improve as my needs change.


----------



## Alleykat0498 (Mar 16, 2009)

TRUST ME when I say start off bigger than a 10 gallon nano, I did http://www.aquariumforum.com/f13/saltwater-n00b-1947.html and I've wished since the beginning that I had started off larger. It started as a FOWLR, then it gained a polyp, that was the end of it, I've spent countless dollars on testing equipment just to make sure that small amount of water doesnt fluctuate too much and destroy my zoa's and other softies. Your in for a fun ride either way, just watch the parameters and enjoy yourself...

I'm currently building a 40 breeder with a 29 gallon sump, 10 wasnt enough...


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks, I already have a plan for sealing the stuff. I will start by gluing the small deviders seperating the intake, wet/dry and return chambers to the outside wall and floor of the tank then when they are cured I will glue the large devider for the refugium to those and the side walls. It will all be thuroughly tested before use. My friend, who is an engineer, and I always get into these projects so I am used to lots of planning and troubleshooting.

I see what you mean about limited room. I may do something different with the wet/dry and have it above the tank like an attachment emptying into the intake chamber. The problem with that is it would have to go where the skimmer is. 

Now is where my noobishness shows. Can you have a couple of those reactors in one chamber? If I move the wet/dry can I have them in the 8"x4" middle chamber? Are all of those necissary on a 10G reef tank?


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh just to add... When it comes to working out what grade return pump to use this is how I went about it.
1) The distance from the return pump to just below the surface of the main display tank is known as head, this means the return pump has to push against gravity thus slowing down its maximum output. 
2) Any dog legs or angles that the return hose has to make on its way from return pump to the main display will also slow down the return pump.
3) You will need to know how many liters/gallons per hour your overflow is rated at before choosing a return pump.
I bought a 1200lph overflow box, This was the maximum speed my return could go before overflowing the main tank. So I worked out that by buying a return pump that would only produce a maximum of 1200lph, it wouldn't be possible for it to flood the main tank. 
After taking into consideration that my return pump would be made slower because of the ''Head'' and 2 90 degree angles in the return hose the result was my return pump produces about 800lph and not the 1200lph that it is rated at.

So to be safe workout what lph/gph your overflow to sump is producing, then buy a pump that is rated at the same speed, this way you wont flood your main tank.
Or if you want more flow then a faster return pump could be a option but it can NOT be faster than your overflow when taking everything into account.
Its very confusing so any questions just ask


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thats easy enough lol. My main question is how many GPH does my 10G display tank need going though the sump? That way I know which overflow I need to get. I just dont want to be pushing my poor fish against the side of the tank with too much preasure lol. Thanks again.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

The many types of reactors are made necessary when you add more to your small system. I'm pretty sure you can buy reactors that hang on the main display tank and then drip feed the sump. As I see it a calcium reactor is a must in a reef system, Even more so in a small system because the small body of water will soon be depleted of its calcerous properties thanks to the growth of your chosen corals and inverts.

If it was me I'D go for 120gph but I think you will have trouble finding a overflow box that go's that slow. So get the smallest gph/lph that you can get and then have a pump that will keep it at around 120/200gph


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Alleykat0498 said:


> TRUST ME when I say start off bigger than a 10 gallon nano, I did http://www.aquariumforum.com/f13/saltwater-n00b-1947.html and I've wished since the beginning that I had started off larger. It started as a FOWLR, then it gained a polyp, that was the end of it, I've spent countless dollars on testing equipment just to make sure that small amount of water doesnt fluctuate too much and destroy my zoa's and other softies. Your in for a fun ride either way, just watch the parameters and enjoy yourself...
> 
> I'm currently building a 40 breeder with a 29 gallon sump, 10 wasnt enough...


Yea I was going to start with converting a 55G but we may be moving soon so my wife and I agreed not to do anything large till we buy our new house. I am planning on using the float listed earlier in the thread and keeping a few gallons of RO for top off. I am losing about 1/8" of water a day and one gallon is 1 & 1/8" in that tank. There is no way to go without topping off even with weekly changes. Even if I build the refugium I am not doing reef for quite a while until I do ALOT more research.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Billythefish said:


> The many types of reactors are made necessary when you add more to your small system. I'm pretty sure you can buy reactors that hang on the main display tank and then drip feed the sump. As I see it a calcium reactor is a must in a reef system, Even more so in a small system because the small body of water will soon be depleted of its calcerous properties thanks to the growth of your chosen corals and inverts.


Good point. I didnt even think of the coral needing lots of calcium. I will do more research on those and see how I can integrate them. HOB can be handy in my limited space.

It will be a long time before needing them though lol.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Here is a link that I think could give you some ideas.
This guy mad my nano overflow box. you can fined refugiums and loads of reactors, If you or your friend know how to cast acrylic then bingo you could make your own and save a pretty penny.

eBay UK Shop - Cleartides: Reactor Running Kit, Overflow Box 40 100, Empty


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Awesome dude! I added the link to my fish favorites and will look at it more tomorrow when I start researching them more. I also found this while googlingAbout.com: http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/diycareactor.htm. Does it look any good if I can scale it down? It seems to be a calcium and co2 reactor. Thanks for all the input and help. Everyone says to read read read and I have been but some of this stuff just isnt spelled out the way I understand lol. But I have plenty of time since the tank will be set up next week and it will need 4-6 weeks at least to cycle.

While I am here what light would be better, Reefs2go.com 20" Satellite 1x40 watt SunPaq with Lunar Light this one or the 2x40W for double the price? Should I invest in it now for the FOWLR or just wait till I am ready for a reef?


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

HAY. 
the the calcium reactor from your link is superb.. I cant see a problem if you scale it down. 
As for the lights I'm sure the light system from your second link will be more than appropriate... I like the fact it has lunar light. The one thing I would add to it is one of them mains adapters that has a timer gismo, This will make life so much easier because trying to mimic natural and reliable day and night times for reef system is a must for your corals and inverts health.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I was hoping that light would work. I am doing research into anemones and they say you need seriously intense lighting. I was wondering if that would do for them or not. I am still learning ALOT about reef systems and the different life on them. 

As far as timers go I use this ESU Aqualight Digital Power Center at PETCO for my reptiles. I need to order 2 more. I checked on the site for the light and I think the system uses 2 plugs, one for the day and one for night, so the day/night cycle with that timer will be perfect. I will be looking into ordering a fan for it also just to keep it cooler.

Thanks again for all the input. It's nice to have found a site with this many helpfull people that are willing to chime in.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

The lights from your link will be fine for anemones, The reason being is that you don't have to contend with a large depth that the lights have to penetrate in your 10gallon. so you will not loos much kelvin.
Another good way to keep as much light in the main tank is to have black paint on the back and sides of the main display tank, This way the intensity of the bulbs is concentrated inside the tank with minimum escape.

The great thing about anemones is they have a way of finding and then anchoring themselves in the best place for light and flow, Keep that in mined when aquascaping your live rock and you'll be fine.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

so when are we going to get to see some pictures of this baby


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I will be building the main system next week and starting on the sump shortly after. I have it together now testing everything with just tap water. I need a new power head as this one doesnt like to stick to the wall. I am getting a Koralia instead of the Rio I planned on using since the Koralia uses a magnet instead of suction cups. Also I read the Koralia has much better flow. I am ordering the light today and next Friday or Saturday picking up water, sand, LR and the new power head. My wife found a couple of clowns at a different LFS thats not quite at local lol. They are super bright red and the stripes have yellow in them. They were beautiful fish that looked really healthy. We tried to pay for them now so they would still have them when the cycle was done but they wouldn't let us.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

the clowns u saw were golstripe maroon clownfish-large and very aggressive, one-of-a-kind clownfish, the only named species of spinecheek clownfish(genus _Premnas_).as i said, they are big and aggressive, would not recommend in that size tank.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for that. I told the guy that I was building a 10G nano and he didnt say anything about them being big and agressive. So much for going to that LFS lol.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

don't listen to pet store people! they will tell u ANYTHING to get u to buy something(like _oscars must be kept with neon tetras-they must form their symbiotic relationship_,or _u need an angelfish to cycle your tank and nothing else will due_.)


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

lol Oscars cant really be kept with anything unless it is dinner. But they do have personality.

I need to find a species of clown that will be good for the 10G. But I do have 5-8 weeks to find them lol. I do like the coral at that LFS though, there's lots of it, it looks healthy and its on LR and not some ugly piece of ceramic.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

petlover516 said:


> don't listen to pet store people! they will tell u ANYTHING to get u to buy something(like _oscars must be kept with neon tetras-they must form their symbiotic relationship_,or _u need an angelfish to cycle your tank and nothing else will due_.)


hey i work in a pet store and i wouldnt say that stuff
but yea i have herd somethings like that before


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Yea I had a friend that worked at the LFS closest to me a long time ago. I think at this point it's the only one I trust around here. But like all things, verifying what they tell you and research are going to be the key. 

I take what some people say with a grain of salt and if it doesnt sound right I will ask others. petlover is right that some people, not all, will tell you anything to make the sale. Then there are the people that take pride in what they do and will tell you the truth even if it costs them a sale.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

if a store is willing to lose a future return customer just to get a sale today there is no need for anyone to shop there


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok so we found a nice LFS a little further away and the owner intoduced me to one of the employees that has an awesome 8G nano going and he is going to help me get the 10G started. He pretty much said the LFS closest to me told me the wrong info and since he has one set up and running then I am going to believe him. I am going to go later today and pick everythng up from them and get it set up. I will post pics as I go and tomorrow I will start buying parts to build the refugium. That may not be up for a bit but I will at least get it built.


----------



## MediaHound (Jul 19, 2006)

That's good that you have someone local you can turn to. Someone that has done it already that lives near you is always a good thing.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok I got the water, live rock and live sand. It is mostly clear now and the people said once my light is in I can add some soft coral. I bought 10 lbs of LR and I have to say everyone was right, it doesnt look like much once its in there. I am going back for more later this week. Pictures coming soon.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

The maroon clown fish you speak of are very nice looking fish ''hence my profile pic lol''
But unfortunately they are a bit nasty and the females get big. Maybe when you move house and get that 55 up and running you could get a nice pair.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I saw the ones you are talking about at Petco last night. The ones I am talking about look different. I will try to get a picture of them this weekend. The ones I saw at Petco were maroon with yellow stripes like your av but the ones I saw last weekend were bright red with yellow stripes. 

As far as the tank goes, I am going to get about 5-10 lbs more LR on Saturday and some more rubble and LS for the ref/sump. I built the sump on Monday and tested it last night after the glue was fully cured. It sealed up nicely and water seems to flow very well over the wet/dry side. The part I am woried about is the ref. I drilled 6 holes to drain the water back into the return pump chamber but only two holes to fill the ref from the intake chamber. Water does flow into it at a steady rate but I am afraid once the protien skimmer is on and draining into the wet/dry the ref will not get enough water so I will drill 2 more holes tomorrow and test it again. The overflow, pump and loc-line parts will be in Monday I hope and I can hook all of it up to a tank to test it by the end of next week. My plan is to have the return water go into a loc-line Y and out two nozzles so I can get rid of the power head and HOB filter that has my LR rubble in it now.

Once the refugium is set up and running I am going to order some macro algae. I was going to order Chaetomorpha but I read it needs good flow to tumble. Can anyone here recomend a good macro algae that does not need high water flow? I am thinking of ordering a mangrove, it will be interesting to see what that one does lol. This is the site I am looking at right now Saltwater aquarium refugium , marine plants, algaes, nitrate reduction but if there are better ones please feel free to let me know.

I am going to try to remember to upload my pictures tonight and post them.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok the clown fish I saw was the same as the one you were talking about. It's description says bright red to orange so thats possibly it. I am going to call them anyways to see if they can tell me the exact species. I just found a pic on google of the one I saw but this one is not quite as brite.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

the reason the clowns looked different is because they are either tank-raised or younger. they are still the same species and need the same requirements and will get just as aggressive.

for macroalgae, have u looked at caulerpa(not sure if spelled right)?


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Yea I figured that out about the clowns but man are they awesome looking. They were tank raised too.

I will have to shop around for the Caulerpa since it's $35 at the link above. I was also looking at the Red Gracillaria, but I dont know if it need alot of flow or not. My wife vetoed the mangrove since they get so big lol (I may get one anyway).

Here is my tank now, but it will have alot more LR this weekend and that powerhead will be gone by the end of next week.


Here is my Ref/Sump in its testing stage. You can see my two powerheads pumping the water into the back right chamber and it is circulating through both the ref in the front and the wqet/dry in the back. I was wrong in my last post, those are only pumping 120 gph each max and the overflow I ordered will drain up to 300 gph so the flow into the ref will be better once I drill one more hole.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

looking good!


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks. I emptied it last night and drilled two more holes on the right side so more water flows through the ref but I realized I only had 5 holes in the return side. I don't think it will be a problem though. If it is then I can just make those bigger later on. 

I made a platform with holes in it to be just above the water line in the wet/dry but I am thinking I will just fill it with bio-balls and leave the platform out. The main idea was to have as much water as possible flowing over the balls to promote oxygenation then have the water fill the bottom but if I fill it with bio-balls then it will have more surface area for the good bacteria. The water will still flow over the ones on top fine but then continue through the ones that are submersed.

Ok I found this last night, tell me what you think Halimeda. It has 4 different macroalgaes and some LR & LS with pods and stuff. My ref will have LS and lots of rubble in it already but a little more cant hurt.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I checked my water last night, on day 5, and the ammonia was right around 0 and the nitrite was right around 0 and the nitrates were around 10. I have about 15 lbs of LS and 10 lbs of LR, can it cycle that fast in a 10G? I am adding 8-10 lbs more LR tomorrow so I will see what it does to the cycle process.

On a brighter note (no pun intended) I got my light in yesterday and it looks awesome! I love the LED at night. I will get a better picture tomorrow and post it with more rock and better light than last time.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

i dont think the tank is cycled yet. a little fast IMO


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

yea the guy at the LFS told me it would spike again then in about 2-3 weeks it will level out. I got another 8.8 lbs of LR today so I have about 20 lbs in there now. I also got sand and some LR rubble for the refugium so I am waiting on it to settle before filling it the rest of the way with water and starting the pump to keep it circulating until I get the overflow.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok my fuge/sump is done except the macrolagae. I got my pump on Friday and finished the wet/dry yesterday. Let me give some advice though, always hold the lexan with a towel or something secure before drilling. When that drill bit grabs a chunk and spins the lexan or acrilic around it can do some real damage to your hand. I only have two large bandades on my hand now lol. I should be getting the overflow on Monday or Tuesday and the macroalgae will be in by Friday. I think that will do it and I only have to wait on it to finish cycling. I will get more pics when the sump is hooked up to the tank.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Hay.
You've done a excellent job with your setup congratulations.

In that picture of your main display your power head is pointing up not down onto the live rock... The rock needs good flow bud or your start to get brown algae all over it ;-).
Also I found adding a little purple -up to the water helped get the coralline algae growing in no time.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

lol now you tell me, I got home today to a huge mass of brown algae lmao. Now I know and I can fix it, thanks. I am rearanging my LR since I have about 18-20 lbs now and I cant get them looking good with the stupid HOB filter. It almost looks like too much but the HOB filter takes up about 2-3 square inches for the intake and with a 10G there's not much room to waste. When my overflow and ball-link stuff get here tomorrow or Wednesday it will be much easier and I will have one jet facing somewhat up to help oxygenate and the other pointing down onto the rocks. New pictures coming as soon as the parts get here. Oh and my macro algae was shipped today too so my ref will be done by the weekend.

Thanks to everyone for the input and all the help. Feel free to give as much input as you want or correct me anytime since I am still a n00b.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok so I will no longer order from Drs Fosters and Smith. Although thier prices were the best my macroalgae that was shipped from someone else yesterday will be here before the stupid plumbing. They shipped it Fed-Ex but when it got to Dallas it was dropped off at the USPS for delivery and that could take 3-4 more days. I had the option of shipping it faster for $20 but I may as well have ordered from someone else and had it shipped UPS. I must remember that this is saltwater and to have patience but for $11 shipping it should have been here within 5 days.

As for my setup, the colors are kinda hard to read but the ammonia looks to be around 0, the nitrite looks between 0 and .25, the nitrate is around 10 and the PH seems to be around 7.8 or 8. I havent tested anything else besides those and the SG (1.024) yet since it is still cycling. My temps are at a steady 80.5-81 so i am going to drop the A/C down another degree. I am wondering what the ref/sump will do to my system once hooked up. It should help since it will have a total of 30 lbs of live sand, 24 lbs of cured LR and at least 16-17 gallons of water (thats an estimate after the sand, LR and bio balls displace some water) once combined with my DT. I will have room for 2 gallons to drain into the sump and thats way more than will be able to. 1 gallon is about 1 1/8" water in that tank and the overflow and jets will not be much lower than that at the most. 

My DIY auto top off is almost done also. I ordered some parts from Mouser Electronics last week and I have tons of spare junk laying around. I took an old external hard drive power supply and used the 12V output to trigger the relay that activates the pump once the float gets low enough. I will have a backup float about an inch higher out of the water in case the first one fails due to salt creep or anything. The power supply is pretty strong so I am thinking of adding a plug to it to power a small 12V fan to cool the sump water or some strip LEDs for looks. I will take pictures of everything tonight.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Hay,
I wouldn't worry to much about testing your water at this point as your live rock will need some time to start stabilizing it, Feed it a good flow to help remove any die off and this will also encourage Coraline algae growth '' The good algae'' sponges etc, Plus you will have a better idea of water chemistry after the sump/ref is up and running.
Also I think your temperature is way to high, Try to keep it under 78f at this point in the cycle, It should help slow down nasty spikes and blooms and you will fined that your specific gravity will be more accurate at temperatures ranging from 72/78.

I'm totally with you on the whole delivery B.S ;-).


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok I dropped the house temp down 2 degrees (the wife is going to get mad lol), thanks for the input there. No plumbing today so hopefully the stupid shipping will be in tomorrow. 

I am kind of confused about the cycle though. I did put 100% LS in and the LR was from the tank at the LFS and already cured. The LR was only out of the water for a very short time so wouldn't all the bacteria already be on it shortening the cycle process? I know there was some die off but how much could there be over about a 30-60 minute period? At this point isn't all the bacteria already on everything? I know that when you start a new tank it can take time to build up the beneficial bacteria but isn't it already there? I am only asking due to curiosity and not trying to be difficult. I know it will probably be at least 2-3 more weeks. Thanks.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

opy01 said:


> lol now you tell me, I got home today to a huge mass of brown algae lmao. Now I know and I can fix it, thanks. I am rearanging my LR since I have about 18-20 lbs now and I cant get them looking good with the stupid HOB filter. It almost looks like too much but the HOB filter takes up about 2-3 square inches for the intake and with a 10G there's not much room to waste. When my overflow and ball-link stuff get here tomorrow or Wednesday it will be much easier and I will have one jet facing somewhat up to help oxygenate and the other pointing down onto the rocks. New pictures coming as soon as the parts get here. Oh and my macro algae was shipped today too so my ref will be done by the weekend.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the input and all the help. Feel free to give as much input as you want or correct me anytime since I am still a n00b.


Ive found that protein that sticks to the surface water gets skimmed into the overflow box and this also oxygenates the water along with the journey from tank to sump etc, So you shouldn't need to irritate the surface with your power-head. If you did then you could end up with the dreaded micro bubbles that strip your corals skin clean off!.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

opy01 said:


> ok I dropped the house temp down 2 degrees (the wife is going to get mad lol), thanks for the input there. No plumbing today so hopefully the stupid shipping will be in tomorrow.
> 
> I am kind of confused about the cycle though. I did put 100% LS in and the LR was from the tank at the LFS and already cured. The LR was only out of the water for a very short time so wouldn't all the bacteria already be on it shortening the cycle process? I know there was some die off but how much could there be over about a 30-60 minute period? At this point isn't all the bacteria already on everything? I know that when you start a new tank it can take time to build up the beneficial bacteria but isn't it already there? I am only asking due to curiosity and not trying to be difficult. I know it will probably be at least 2-3 more weeks. Thanks.


I can tell you that the live rock you have in your tank isn't fully cured to a standard where you have a massive abundance of beneficial bacteria, Me and you have cured live rock that has been flushed of its die-off, And is now starting to re-grope beneficial bacteria. Fully cured live rock it far more colourful with Masses of purple/pink/red, Coraline algae. 
Take a look at any good live rock dealers website and note the difference. 
Here in this link you can see what i mean. 
Calico Aquatics Live Rock


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Billythefish said:


> Ive found that protein that sticks to the surface water gets skimmed into the overflow box and this also oxygenates the water along with the journey from tank to sump etc, So you shouldn't need to irritate the surface with your power-head. If you did then you could end up with the dreaded micro bubbles that strip your corals skin clean off!.


OK thanks for that. Once the sump is hooked up there will be plenty of agitation in the water on the way down and in the sump. I will make sure both return jets are pointed down or over. I will post a pic (when the stupid parts get here) and you can tell me if its ok.



Billythefish said:


> I can tell you that the live rock you have in your tank isn't fully cured to a standard where you have a massive abundance of beneficial bacteria, Me and you have cured live rock that has been flushed of its die-off, And is now starting to re-grope beneficial bacteria. Fully cured live rock it far more colourful with Masses of purple/pink/red, Coraline algae.
> Take a look at any good live rock dealers website and note the difference.
> Here in this link you can see what i mean.
> Calico Aquatics Live Rock


Thanks for explaining that. Most of mine have red/maroon splotches on them. They aren't very big but there is some. I will take a closer picture and post it when I can. That first pic was horrible. I had to turn the ISO up on my small camera to get a decent picture. Now I have a nicer light on the tank so I will grab my 40D and get a few good shots. All of my LR are somewhat large, would it be ok if I broke one or two in half if I cant get them to look nice as-is? It wouldn't hurt anything would it?

I am on my fourth book on marine aquariums and marine life (not including all the web sites I've read lol) but nothing beats actually talking to experienced people (and its nice to talk to you guys too).

Lots of pics coming before the weekend!


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

opy01 said:


> Ok so I will no longer order from Drs Fosters and Smith. Although thier prices were the best my macroalgae that was shipped from someone else yesterday will be here before the stupid plumbing. They shipped it Fed-Ex but when it got to Dallas it was dropped off at the USPS for delivery and that could take 3-4 more days. I had the option of shipping it faster for $20 but I may as well have ordered from someone else and had it shipped UPS. I must remember that this is saltwater and to have patience but for $11 shipping it should have been here within 5 days.


man this sucks, i have had a similar thing happen with fed ex mine was supose to take one day and it took two weeks, so to avoid this i just dont ship fedex


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

To add insult to injury, the fed-up web site didnt update until just now and it has been sitting at the local USPS station 1/2 mile away since yesterday at 11 am. Now its supposed to be in route to my house so hopefully I will get it at lunch today. Plumbing today, plants tomorrow... maybe lol.

Billythefish, I know you said not to worry about testing the water yet but I am keeping a detailed log and I like to see the progression of my water quality as it cylces and as I add stuff to it. I log everything such as when I got the new light, when I added more LR and how much, adding the fuge etc. 

I finished my ATO last night. I have 1/8" mini jacks for the pumps and size M coax plugs for a 5V and 12V output for a fan, LED strip etc. Now I am waiting on the Floats from China. I screwed up and ordered one up and one down float so hopefully I can rework one of them or I will have to bypass the backup float till the other one arives.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

That's cool testing and keeping a log is a good idea, I was just thinking of the cost for testing at this stage without the sump/ref as it will partially restart the cycle when its hooked up. 

Smashing up live rock is kinda hard to do but it won't harm the bacteria to much, it may kill a few bugs inside though, be sure to keep the small chippings for the ref/sump.

That's grate news that Coraline algae is present on your live rock, in time it should cover just about all the rocks you have and the rocks will be at there optimal performance.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Yea I noticed on the bottom of one of the LR there is a huge patch of purple stuff so that will now be turned over.

OK so both the stuff from Drs Fosters & Smith and the macro algae made it today. 

First of all let me tell you the macro algae stank! It smelled like sewage. It was probably the fertilizer they used but it's taking a while to clear the smell out. Other than that I am mostly happy with it and it is all planted as good as I could get them lol. I am sad to say that the hitch hiker hermit did not make it . Well there are probably a few other hitchers in there so I will just keep an eye out.

The overflow and loclink parts were all there and I noticed the overflow has the drain set up for a 1" PVC pipe and thats it. So off to Lowes I go to get pipe and pipe glue. It will have plenty of flow with a 1" pvc pipe all the way down lol. I got the pvc all cut and set up and went to inventory the other overflow parts and the U tube has a huge crack right along the top. Yep, the part I waited 9 days for is busted. I called Drs Fosters & Smith and convinced them to overnight one tomorrow so I will get the replacement on Friday. Until then I will use a couple of pieces of 1/2" hose for the U tube. This and the fact that they told me they would put UPS as my prefered shipping makes me more willing to use them again.

Pictures tonight... after I clean the living room. My wife is a little annoyed at the huge mess I made setting all this up not to mention my other projects lol. Luckily she is as excited as I am about it so that makes her a little more tolerant.

I almost forgot, will clear PVC glue be OK if it is fully cured? I dont want to contaminate my tank.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

at least they did what they could to make it right
can't wait to see the pictures
fully cured it should be fine just make sure its completely dry


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

yea I glued it about 30-45 minutes ago but I am not touching it till tomorrow night to make extra sure. 

I am uploading photos now of the fuge and some of my rocks. Just be warned that I need to arange the rocks still and I may remove some. I want to make a second tank for my office if this one works so I will throw them into another tank with SW in it and the HOB filter that I take off this one. I guess if I fill the other tank with SW and just keep it topped off with RO and have the LR in there is will be fine for a long time right? (probly a month or so at least) Maybe I will throw some LS in there and just let it cycle here then empty half the water into a bucket and take it all to work one day.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

here is my fuge with the baby macros









Here is my tank with the rocks all out of order due to plumbing problems lol









Is this purple stuff?!


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

looking good


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks! I will hook the fuge up tonight and my wife is going to help me arange the rocks to look nice. I didnt count on the overflow being so big. It takes up alot of space in the back but it isnt as low as the HOB is so I can at least have a rock somewhat under it and then put a smaller one in front of it. Maybe I will make a diffent in-tank part of the overflow that is more narrow and not as deep. It only needs to be a little wider than the U tube and a little deeper also.

The one thing I am not sure about is the chaetomorpha. It is ugly and sinks to the bottom of my fuge. For now I put it in the HOB filter while I was planting everything else and I will put it back today. I may also just use it in the tank I take up to my work... if I end up doing that lol. I also found a worm in the fuge but it hasnt moved in a while so its probably dead. I will pull it out and trash it. Planting everything and adding their LS made a huge mess but thank goodness I had the floss filters in place, they caught most of the crap and now I just need to rinse them.

Also I left the lid off the tank last night and the temps have dropped. I will lose more water but if thats what it takes to keep it cool then so be it. I will have to see how it does with the ight on and the lid off later this evening. I was also losing water due to splatter from my HOB so that will stop tonight also.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

That sure is coralline algae congratulations.
Its all coming together now bud.. excellent job, I like the whole ref/sump combo too ;-).


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks, I got all the plumbing done with four 1/2" hoses as the U tube until my replacement gets here tomorrow. It is flowing nicely except the pump isnt near enough strong enough. I had the loclinks on a y connector blowing out of 2 heads and it didnt feel very strong at all so it is now only one head till I order a new pump. It works good enough for now though. I broke a couple of the LR up into about 4-5 pieces each and its alot better and I am taking one large piece out and putting it in another tank for storage for now.

I really lucked out with my LFS also. I registered for their newsletter and I was the 1000th person to register online and I won a $20.00 gift card. Now I can go shopping this weekend!


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Be sure not to get a pump that is to fast for your overflow box, Learn the lph/gph capacity of your overflow box and then buy a return pump that's a little slower, you wont have to worry about it flooding your main tank.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Yea I have a vavle to slow the flow down if needed but the overflow isnt a problem. It drains through a 1" PVC and isnt anywhere near slow lol.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok is this a decent pump? Pentair Aquatics LifeGard Quiet One Wet/Dry Pumps for Fountains or Aquariums - Ponds - Fish - PetSmart The 780 GPH one is on sale for $37 and I get 10% off. This one will do 780 GPH at a max hight of 10.5' and I read a couple of decent reviews (havent seen a bad one yet). It is also not as long as my current Eheim pump so i can fit my float in there better.

I was thinking about the ehiem one but its $142 and its 900 GPH. I can still use the old eheim 300 GPH pump for my ATO. Kind of frustrating to use a $75 pump for an ATO though lol. Too bad I threw the box away or I would return it to Petsmart.

Edit: Ok I've read alot of good reviews on the Quiet One 3000 so I am going to go ahead with this order. The larger ones have issues, but I dont need a larger one so no biggie.


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

It will do the job.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Weekend update. I finally got my temps to a steady 78-79. My stupid Rio 220 gph power head was putting out some heat. Time to put those pieces of junk on ebay. I found that out by putting some lr rubble in a smaller tank and then putting the powerhead in there and the water warmed up quick. while my DT cooled down.

Other than that all my readings have been normal for several days now so I threw in some hermits to help clean up my lr and sand some. They are really moving around a lot and seem to be happy and getting stuffed. I also had a shell in my rubble so I threw it in and the next day it was occupied by one of the larger crabs.

My floats for my ATO came in yesterday and they are smaller than I thought they would be (hurray). I thought I got the wrong one but turns out I needed two down floats and one up float. the two down floats are going in the sump, one for the low level and one for a backup, and the up float will go in the RO water so when it goes below a certain hight it will keep the pump from running dry.

I also ordered a Reef Keeper Lite from Digital Aquatics - The Next Generation in Aquarium Controllers. They were somewhere around $149.00 but they are on sale for $99.99 and I couldn't resist. with all the add-ons for it I can use it for a long time to come. I can use it as an exact thermostat so I don't have to use the stupid nob on the thermometer, it will control my day/night cycle as well as my fuge lighting that is different than my DT, it will run my ATO and I can get add-ons to monitor my SG and Ph. The Elite model has a network function that will allow you to monitor stuff online but I don't need anything that fancy (or expensive) lol.

I will take some pictures later today when I get home.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok I finally got my tank somewhat organized and I like it. Now to get some softies to put in there now that is stabilized.









Here is a better one of my fuge/sump with the plumbing done


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

looking good.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks, it took a bit to get the rocks the way i like them. The other thing is the overflow is bigger than I thought so that takes up alot of room. The rest of my stuff should be in by the end of the week so I will have alot better flow and a more accurate way of monitoring my stuff. That stupid hydrometer sucks when the bubble will not come off the arm.

I have at least 5lbs of LR and some rubble left so I threw them in another tank with some LS and my HOB that came off this tank. I will let it cycle for a while then take it to my office and have a nice tank beside me when working. I figure I can buy some frags at the LFS and when they get big enough just frag them and bring them up here.

8 PM update! 

I was pulling dead grass out of my fuge and there was all this crap on alot of the leaves of my other marcoalgae so I brushed it off. When I was done gardening I looked up and there was all this white stuff floating all over the DT. Upon closer examination of the ones on the front glass I noticed they are pods. Now my hermits can eat even more stuff lol. I do need something else that will eat them to put in there though because I got tons of them. I know some coral eat the free floating ones but is there a small fish I can throw in that will eat them also?


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

just about any fish will eat copods, as it is most reef fishes natural diet.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok I read some wont eat them but others will eat the heck out of them. Most of the ones that eat them like crazy are too big for my tank though. Still thinking about a small clown, but that will be a while.


----------



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

thats what i suggest-a small clown. a pair of tank-raised O's would be perfect for that tank.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Awesome! Thanks! I cant wait to start putting some softies in there too. I am working on a DIY LED light aray for it now so hopefully in a couple of weeks I will have a much better light and my setup will be ready... at least hardware wise lol.


----------



## MediaHound (Jul 19, 2006)

where did you get your LED parts? what wattage and nm are you going with?


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

MediaHound said:


> where did you get your LED parts? what wattage and nm are you going with?


I am trying to get a pair of Mean Well ELN-60-48D LED drivers from Power Supplies and DC-DC Converters from PowerGate for $38.50 each but they have to come from the manufacturer and I am still waiting on the order confirmation from them. Here is the specs http://www.powergatellc.com/pdfs/ELN-60.pdf. They are A/C driven so no need for a power supply.

The LEDs I am getting from a guy on Ebay for $5.70 each for 26 3W, 13 cool white and 13 royal blue (I will get you contact info as soon as I purchase them to be sure). I will need to find 60 degree optics somewhere but I may have to wait till the group buy on another forum.

The heatsink I am getting from Aluminum Extruded Heatsink, it's 20"x8.5" for $55 with UPS shipping. I will be making a custom mount for it to stand a couple of inches above the tank.

I will be running this configuration with the blues on one controller and the whites on another (kind of) with the hopes that my Reef Keeper Lite with be upgraded by the time I get it built. That way I can control the level of the blue and white individually.

W B W B W B W B W
-B W B W B W B W-
W B W B W B W B W


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok so I went and picked up some zoas yesterday. They are nice but I think I got a hitchhiker on one of the rocks they came on. Right above the hermit bolow the pink zoa is an odd tentacle that seems to grab stuff and made that zao close at least once. Can someone tell me what this may be and if its bad and if so then how to get rid of it?


----------



## Billythefish (Feb 24, 2009)

Could be a worm... it could also be a dead one judging by its colour, I dont think you should worry.
Try to get a look at it at night to see if its more or less active etc, and not just flapping around in the water flow.
Use tweezers to remove it if you want it out.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

It was actually very active during the day. It may be a worm. It looked like it was grabbing stuff off the rock. It could be a worm but I dont think I can grab it with tweezers as fast as it is but I will try. Thanks.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

i can say that if you decide you want to kill it. my weapon of choice is kalkwasser injected, you can kill anything like this


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok so this past week I finally got my calcium up but I have been fighting a ton of maroon algae. The stupid stuff wont go away so I bought a couple of snails to see if they would help. One was a sand sifter and it went right into the sand. I mean it went literally into the sand and I havent seen it since. The other was a turbo snail who's turbo I think is broken. I think it may have cleaned one spot off since Friday and the algae is getting worse. I have tried shortening the light cycly, vacuming it out, scrubbing it off, blowing it off and it just gets worse. I dont want to use chemicals in my tank so does anyone have any sugestions? Do I need more snails? The one I have is pretty big.


----------



## Alleykat0498 (Mar 16, 2009)

I have heard of some CUC's (clean up crew's) containing as much as 1 snail per gallon. The snail that went straight into the sand is probably a nassarius snail. I have a few that seem to me to be carnivorous, if I drop a small piece of shrimp into the tank to feed the hermits etc. they emerge from the sand almost immediately. They feed off of uneaten food and such. As far as the brown algae it's most likely cyano issue. the cyano feed off of silicates in new tanks and the brown stuff will most likely clear up as the silicate's dissapate from the tank. In a nutshell they should starve themselves.

Good luck.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Alleykat0498 said:


> I have heard of some CUC's (clean up crew's) containing as much as 1 snail per gallon. The snail that went straight into the sand is probably a nassarius snail. I have a few that seem to me to be carnivorous, if I drop a small piece of shrimp into the tank to feed the hermits etc. they emerge from the sand almost immediately. They feed off of uneaten food and such. As far as the brown algae it's most likely cyano issue. the cyano feed off of silicates in new tanks and the brown stuff will most likely clear up as the silicate's dissapate from the tank. In a nutshell they should starve themselves.
> 
> Good luck.



Hopefully they will starve themselves and I am waiting for my macroalgae in my sump to help with this. It's not brown though, it's maroon if that matters, but I do agree with you that it's probably cyano. Do turbo snails eat the cyano?


----------



## Alleykat0498 (Mar 16, 2009)

opy01 said:


> Hopefully they will starve themselves and I am waiting for my macroalgae in my sump to help with this. It's not brown though, it's maroon if that matters, but I do agree with you that it's probably cyano. Do turbo snails eat the cyano?


The turbo I had in my nano didnt really show alot of interest in the maroon blanket. It's one of those thing's I think we have to just wait out in the hobby with new tanks. I would suggest finding yourself some margarita snails instead of turbo's. Dont get me wrong the turbo's do a good job knocking down the stuff on the glass, but they are like tiny bulldozers tipping frags left and right and can even move some smaller rocks. The margarita's do pretty much as well at cleaning the tank, but are quite a bit smaller and seem to be more interested in the glass than knocking stuff over while foraging around on the scape.

Hope this helps. I just dropped 7 margarita's in my nano to address a hair algae issue and the little guy's are cleaning like a champ.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Yes Cyno-Bacteria is a serious pain and flustrating to deal with until you find the root cause and get it corrected and allow your tank to adjust and stabilize. What do you think is causing the high levels of nutrients in the tank? What were the water parameters on the tank when the Cyno first appeared?


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

First of all, my 3 day old turbo snail is now dead. He was a big sucker (no pun intended) but he just didnt do that good. Maybe there was too much cyano and not enough of what he needed. On a brighter note the nassarius snail was trucking around the sand yesterday, he probably smelled the other snail dead. I didnt notice it was dead until the hermits were all over it trying to clean it up lol. I got it out and luckely my amonia and stuff was not abnormal when I did my test an hour later.

My tank has appeared stable for a couple of weeks. I did have a nitrite spike of .25 one day then the next it was back to 0 but it could have been a false read. My nitrates are about 20 and have been that was for a few days now, before that they would fluctuate between 10-20. The cyano appeared about the time I added the zoas. It has gotten progressively worse since then. I ordered 5 cerith snails that are supposed to eat the cyano. My phosphates show 0 but from what I have read that could be a false 0 due to the cyano using the phosphates. I did about a 1.5G water change on the 13th then a 2G change on the 19th. I will change a couple of more gallons this weekend and see if it helps any.

I also had some die off of some Caulerpa Floridana and some sea grass in my fuge due to a plumbing issue and my SG dropping some. I cleaned out the caulerpa and some dead sea grass that I am now regretting getting. It needs too much something that I obviously dont have because most of it is dead. It probably needs a different substrate. I am hoping my macroalgae does start doing some good soon. I will open up more flow to the fuge this week in hopes that more water going through the fuge will help. Maybe the macro die off caused a spike in something that the cyano liked.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Whats causing the high nutrient levels in the tank that's fueling the Cyno?

Oh and the critter that you posted about ealier that you said was sending out an "arm" and in a hole below the pink Zoanthids is actually a worm of a species I cant remember off the top of my head. Its not anything that will cause harm in your tank. It will from time to time sweep its "arm" out and snag bits of deteris(sp?) from the water coloum or rock work and consume it. As such it is a benefical thing to have and I wouldnt kill it.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Imaexpat2 said:


> Whats causing the high nutrient levels in the tank that's fueling the Cyno?


lol If I knew that I would do something about it. I am thinking maybe the die-off of the macro caused a spike of some sort but my phosphate test is 0. Of course my nitrates are around 20 even after doing at least 10% water change a week for 2 weeks now. The only things in my tank are a few zoas, of which a few didnt make it in the transition, 1.1 shrooms, 9 hermits and a nassarius snail. I had one hermit die and my turbo snail also but they were removed the day they died.

Saturday I will do a major cleaning and clean the wet/dry really good. I will also remove all of the sea grass. I am going to do some reworking of my ATO system also to try to fix a couple of bugs (one being human error in not seeing how much R/O is left in the ATO unit). Maybe a good cleaning and scrubbing the cyano then vacuming it up will help a little till my fuge can start using up some of the nutrients.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok, I went home on my lunch break and scrubbed the red crap off the rocks that I could get to without disturbing the zoas too much (they are already stressed enough), changed 2.5G water, increased the water pressure from the sump so the jets blow out more onto the rocks, removed the bio-balls from the wet/dry to try to reduce nitrate and cut my light cycle down to about 6 hours. This should contain the situation till my snails get here on Friday. Now if I can just keep the tank in a constant steady state so my zoas will be able to open and enjoy the light. I think some of them on my small $10 rock are already gonners , but they were already not opening much at all from day one and now cyano is covering them and I cant blow it off with the turkey baister. One of them on that same rock would always open but now it has cyano has grown on it and I dont know how it will be effected.

I now know where my other snail is. When I was cleaning the rock I saw his little antenna sticking up from the sand sniffing around lol.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

> I am thinking maybe the die-off of the macro caused a spike


Yes that would certianly lead to a sudden spike in nutrient levels as it decays and releases all the nutrients stored in it, back into your water coloum.



> changed 2.5G water


Small frequent water changes is a good thing. They will always contribute to lowering your nitrates and other nutrient build up in the water from the tank. However one or two doesnt really do much for you given your current conditions in the tank. Doing a couple of 2 gallon water changes with fresh Salt mixed with R/O water a week for a few weeks should do your tank some real good. Its a slow gradual process and a pain to do but you will likely find the results well worth your while in the end.



> The only things in my tank are a few zoas, of which a few didnt make it in the transition, 1.1 shrooms, 9 hermits and a nassarius snail.


There is likely one of your problems, inadequate clean up crew. You seem to have enough Hermits but your seriously lacking on snails. I nassarious is not nearly enough. I would suggest another 9 Nassarious or Cerith snails and 6-10 Banded Triochus/Astrea or better yet Margarita snails. Why so many snails you may ask? Well not all snails are created equal. Some have a tendency to clean the glass and rocks and some have a tendency to clean the sand bed. You need both, especially right now. None of them will do much to eat the Cyno, but they will go a long way in preventing the conditions in your tank that favor Cyno and algae growth in your tank. Clean tanks have very little nutrients in them and therefore minimal algae issues. Your water my be gin clear but that doesnt mean it ain loaded with high nutrient levels.



> Maybe a good cleaning and scrubbing the cyano then vacuming it up will help a little till my fuge can start using up some of the nutrients.


Removing all of the Cyno will defintiely be a step in the right direction. Removing this while it is in "full bloom" is as effective as removing algae from your fuge when it has grow a lot and gotten think and you tear about half of it out and throw it away. The same pricipal is at work here, your just doing it with Cyno and Hair algae instead of Macro Algae from your fuge. Dont let the Cyno "die off" and "go away" on its own. When it dies off it is realsing all of the stored up nutrients back into the water coloum which will fuel a new bloom in a day or two.



> Ok, I went home on my lunch break and scrubbed the red crap off the rocks that I could get to without disturbing the zoas too much


Good! Not a fun way to spend your lunch break, but much better than the option of looking at a faltering tank all day. Keep it up and the hard work will pay off. It just takes a while. Nothing good happens in a SW tank fast.



> increased the water pressure from the sump so the jets blow out more onto the rocks


I was suspecting all along that you had less than optimal water flow in the tank although you never posted (or I over looked it if you did) what the water flow charatristics where in the tank. This is something that will also have a profound effect on Cyno in the tank. If you have adequate water flowing in the tank and no dead spots then this will keep deteris (sp?) suspended in your water coloum (sp?) where your filter can suck it up and trap it in the filter floss or what ever means you are using for mechancial filtration. When you clean the filter which should be often, especially at this point you are removing this crude instead of allowing it to decay and load your tank up with DOC's (Disolved Organic Compounds) such as protiens, Phosphate ect... .This doesnt mean go an add a couple of Maxi Jets pumping 300 gph to your tank. Thats insaine and the wrong kinda water flow to use. High volume in a wide flow patterns does more good for you than high flow concentrated in a narrow stream pattern such as you would get from a typical power head.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. I have a 10 gallon AGA tank with a AC 30 filter and in addition to the 150 gph of water flow this puts out I am using two Koralia Nanos. For a 10 gallon tank that is adequate filtration and the nice wide flow pattern of the Koralia Nanos which move 240 gph each. This equates to a fairly gentle but brisk flow of 630 gph.



> removed the bio-balls from the wet/dry to try to reduce nitrate


Now thats what I am talking about. Bio-Balls in a SW tank often leads to a Nitrate issue. They are great for providing excellent surface area for bacteria that deal with Ammonia and Nitrites but the other edge of this double edged sword is that after they get a build up of film on them it creates a huge "Nitrate Factory". This is why you likely cant get your nitrates down to 10 ppm or less where it needs to be for corals in your tank.



> cut my light cycle down to about 6 hours


If you have the correct spectrum of bulbs and they are not due for a bulb change..., in your tank, cutting down the photoperiod will get you minimal results. First of all Cyno doesnt require light, its bacteria not algae. Most nucense(sp) alhgae gets plenty of ambient light from its surrounding such as light comming in a window accross the room of the tank or when you trun the lights on in the room so you dont trip over that sneaky ottoman.



> Now if I can just keep the tank in a constant steady state so my zoas will be able to open and enjoy the light


It takes more than this to have corals in a tank. Stable water parameters that are not within acceptable ranges in water with high nutrient levels does not make for a suitable enviroment for corals. You started this tank on 25 May 09 if I read the replies right and here it is 23 June 2009. I say this not to be mean but this tank was never ready for corals to begin with. Im not sure it was finished cycling, but with no parameters to look at over the last 4 weeks I cant say for sure. It takes about 28-45 days for a tank to truely cycle and start to settle down a bit. It takes another 4-8 months for the tank to run its course, mature and start to settle down and sabilize. During this 5-6 month period of no corals and in a tank this size no more than one fish you have plenty of time to deal with the various stages your tank will go through as it matures. During this time you will see a diatom bloom that will develop first and go away in a few days, you will start to see a little powdery green algae develop on the glass and the snails will deal with this. You will see some hair algae develop possibly and your clean up crew will easily deal with this in short order. If you have a bout with Cyno it will likely show its ugly sinde at this point. With minimal fish, minimal fish food going in the tank and no other live stock other than a clean up crew this should be a short live battle that you easily win. If you had an adequate clean up crew in the tank to begin with you most likely would have avoided this fun little stage. And finally as your tank began to mature and stabilize you should have started to see some nice growth rates of coralline algae. At this point you would be more than ready for possibly a second tiny fish or some coral additions without upseting the balance of your tank.

But hey thats just my opinion. But that opinion is based off several years of experience and success at this. Yeah, sure you can find someone that will disagree with my opinion, its easy to do. Just look around on forums long enough ro head down to the LFS and find a sales person and they will hook you up with a different version of "the story". But do some research and you will find a lot of merit in the points I am trying to make here in an effort to help you out in the right direction.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for all of that. I did order a bunch of cerith snails the other day because I read they eat cyano. I will get some more nassarius snails this weekend but no more turbos, that thing was too big and pretty much useless IMO lol. 

My amonia has been at 0 for about 3 weeks at least and my nitrite has been at 0 for a couple of weeks. I got a diatom bloom a couple of weeks ago that lasted about a day or 2. I checked my phosphates and alkalinity before I got my zoas and those all checked out fine. The calcium was a bit low but I used Kent Nano Reef and got the calcium back up and everything tests fine now, other than somewhat high nitates (20) that I think were caused by the bio-balls and crap in that chamber.

The LFS guy that had a nano up there has been guiding me through this slowly and he said averything looks ok to put some soft corals in. Until the cyano outbreak the zoas on one rock all looked healthy and happy but the other rock only had one that was happy, the rest barely opened. I tried moving it but that made that one happy one close up so I moved it back and he opened back up fine. I hope that one makes it. 

I am now possitive though that it was the macro die-off that caused it. I am keeping a close eye on it and so far all the macro now look healthy and green. I did find alot of crap on the bottom of the chamber where the bio-balls were and I think it was crap that circulated when I planted my macro. I cleaned that out along with the return pump chamber where a little more of that crap was. Where the bio-balls were I now have a filter over that area and I will clean it daily. I may use that area for a protien skimmer in the future. Saturday I will do another 2 gallon change and my cerith snails should be here by then. Although they did say the ceriths may be inactive for a couple of days after I get them. I sure wish I read about them when I first got the outbreak lol.

I forgot to mention, I got a new pump a couple of weeks ago that pumps 780GPH (head pressure) from my fuge 2 feet below the DT through a split loc-link with a flow adjuster in-line. I had it at about 3/4 open before due to noise but now I am not worried about noise so I opened it up more. It is really pushing the water through now. I am not sure exactly how much is it pushing through but there is some nice flow.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Well the cyano is getting under control and the zoas are starting to open back up. One horrible thing that happened was my overflow was causing tons of micro bubble, but I now have fixed that by adding a ball valve to the overflow pipe. I also found that black turbo snails dont last long in my tank but at least the hermits and peppermint shrimp eat well. Who doesn't love a nice dish of escargot lol. I did have a horrible accident with my larger shroom. It detatched so I glued it back twice but the third time I just let it sit where it wanted. I didnt realize that the power head would eat it. At least thats what I think heppened since its nowhere to be found at all.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Mushrooms will often do this its not that unusual. Sometimes things in the tank change and they decide to detatch and move/drift else where. Dont be so sure its in the power head it might have been pushed under the edge of a rook or a nook or cranny in the rock workl and just not be visable.


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

with the missing mushroom chances are you would know if it went through a PH i had an anemone go through mine, that was some of the cloudiest water i have ever seen, you would know


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Imaexpat2 said:


> Mushrooms will often do this its not that unusual. Sometimes things in the tank change and they decide to detatch and move/drift else where. Dont be so sure its in the power head it might have been pushed under the edge of a rook or a nook or cranny in the rock workl and just not be visable.


I cannot say for sure that its gone but I have lifted several rocks on top and looks all over under and behind other rocks and its nowhere to be seen. It may show up.



phil_pl said:


> with the missing mushroom chances are you would know if it went through a PH i had an anemone go through mine, that was some of the cloudiest water i have ever seen, you would know


It's hard to tell because it disapeared after I did a cleaning and accidentaly disturbed my sand in the fuge and the water was cloudy after that. Hopefully it will drift out and attach to something lol.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok the cyano is almost all gone and my fuge is taking off. I went to the LFS and talked to the guy that sold me turbos and he cant figure out why they would die like that, maybe tempurature. He said my water is fine and if something like copper was killing the snails then the other inverts would be dying also.

Besides that all my zoas are opening now and they are opening alot more than the first week or two I had them before the cyano snuck in and I only lost one zoa though the hole mess. The tiny baby moshroom also seems to be doing good. I also got two more small corals this weekend. 

Here is my shrooms I picked up yesterday. They opened up huge shortly after putting them in. I counted about 8 shrooms on that one rock while they were still closed up, plus a clam on the bottom lol. Hopefully one or two will migrate somewhere else.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds good about the corals and glad to see your getting the upper hand on the battle with Cyno. Its a tough thing to deal with and it takes some time.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks. It took just under a couple of weeks to get it under control and it seems to be slowly going away. The caulerpa is getting pretty big and the chaeto seems to be growing also. Hopefully those will take over using up the nitrates and phosphates instead of the cyano. I am also getting some more cyrith snails in this week (hopefully) and they should do alot better than the black turbos that keep dying. I do have a nassarius snail in there thats been fine for a couple of weeks and is still perfectly fine so I am hoping that the turbos died due to being from a colder region or something.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

ok so now that the cyano is dying back I am getting a rise nitrates even after changing 2 gallons. I removed a sponge filter from the overflow and changed my filter in the sump hoping that it will help some. Other than that everything looks good. I noticed my peppermint shrimp cleaning a clam that came on the underside of one of my shrooms so I figured I would feed him while he was out. He went crazy for the brine shrimp but after he was done he was picking at my larger shroom. I wonder if some of the brine shrimp got on it and he was just cleaning it off. Whatever he was doing was sure ticking off my shroom though because that thing basically turned inside out. Eventually the shrimp left and the shroom opened back up but there is an area on the edge of the shroom that looks irritated where the shrimp was picking at it. Hopefully he will be fine. 

Here are a couple of pics of my other corals.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

After changing the 2 gallons on Wednesday and removing that sponge filter my nitrates are back down to 20. 

Now that things are a little more "normal" (whatever that means lol) I decided to mess with that rock with the shrooms on it. There were at least 11 shrooms of different sizes and colors on there so I decided to try moving a couple. Last night I took two off the rock. I dont think they liked that very much but they also werent getting very good light. After reading alot of different threads about them I decided to try just forcing them off the rock and putting them on another rock with wedding vail material loosely holding them on. I read it take about a week for them to stick to the new rock. If this works I will move a couple of the others.

My peppermint shrimp stopped picking on the large shroom and he now knows when and where dinner is since I target feed him. My wife got a kick out of watching him eat. Tonight I will try to get picks of him eating.


----------



## romain (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow..


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Ok I havent updated in a while so here are some pics.


----------



## Imaexpat2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks for the updates I was starting to wonder if you had fell off the edge of the earth and needed us to send out a SAR mission to look for you and do an extraction!

I like that little sump. Is there a chance you got more pictures of it? It looks like something you put together yourself and I would be interested in knowing a lot more about it! I would like to get a better idea of its layout and design.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I designed it after a couple of dfferent sumps I saw online. Here are the plans and pics from start to finish, although I have not gotten the skimmer yet. It has evolved over the past couple of months and now has a bigger pump and I put a piece of plexi-glass in to keep the water from plashing by the intake of the pump and creating tons of bubbles. Feel free to use it and modify it however you want.


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I have been AFK for a while due to work and being on call for a few weeks straight. I finally got a little time to post. Alot has happened since 7-10 besides the pics I posted.

My peppermint shrimp got sucked into the sump... three times! The thrid time he made it all the way to the pump then... well you get the picture. I ended up getting an emerald crab after that. I named him bulldozer after he showed me his demolition skills on my loose frags. Shortly after that I got a nice $40 anthelia that bulldozer ended up destroying. When he got done there were 2 large and 3 small anthelia left. I put them in my other tank in a little hatchery and now it is coming back nicely. I decided not to put it back in with Bulldozer. Maybe I will put a small frag in there later but for now it is staying put. I also picked up a rock-o-shrooms last weekend with 2 striped brittle stars hitch hiking in the holes. I put it in my main tank until one of them relocated then moved it into the tank I am setting up for my office. I now cant find the one in my main tank but with the rock work I have it's no suprise. The one in my office tank is still in the hole it started out in and I am beginning to think it cant get out lol. I wonder what can be done if it cant get out, I guess I could break the rock but I would risk killing it. I will just wait and see. I got the brain coral I showed above and I was thuroughly entertained by watching it eat a couple of mysis shrimp. I posted a video below, enjoy.


YouTube - Feeding Coral


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

how is the tank doing? havent herd from you in a long while


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

Sorry, I moved over to the NR forums. There are alot more people active with nanos over there.

Quick update though while I am here. I got tons of SPS now and I still have the same two LPS and I have a few more zoas.


















































































































































Here is my trumpet eating














































Burp!










Here is a shot of my zoas in my second tank in my office











This is my cabinet mod


----------



## little dutch (Sep 22, 2009)

wow! Very cool. It looks like you did it up right. Excellent pictures.


----------



## GetITCdot (Aug 4, 2009)

what is that?


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

GetITCdot said:


> what is that?


That was sold to me as a rainbow monti and after a couple of weeks under my LEDs turned into a superman monti. It looks awesome doesnt it?


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

little dutch said:


> wow! Very cool. It looks like you did it up right. Excellent pictures.


Thanks!


----------



## phil_pl (Apr 10, 2009)

tank looks GREAT how do you like your controller im thinking of getting one


----------



## opy01 (May 15, 2009)

I like them alot. I am still getting the kinks worked out of the ALC but other than that I am using the ph probe and salinity probe and they work great. I am also running my ATO and everything else on it too.


----------

