# Huge Huge Huge Problem



## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

So I set my 10g Freshwater up about 2 weeks ago. In it I have (or had) 2 fake plants attatched to lavarock (Petco), a Greek ruin decoration (Petco), Freshwater-safe sand substrate (Petco), airstone w/ pump, heater, thermometer, filter, and I had 5 young Tiger Barbs and a TINY cory. 

At first it was fine. The readings were fairly normal, blah blah blah. Then 2 fish die. No big deal. I get rid of them. Introduce 2 more. Everything goes well. Then another one dies. I lose him (turns out it was hiding under the decor) This threw the ammonia through the roof. The remaining fish were gasping for air at the top, but still eating. I took them out and transplanted them into an established tank where they are doing great. Now the tank has no fish. Still, them ammonia levels are off the charts. I've been changing the water, treating it, the whole nine yet nothing is changing. I just changed the water again about 5 minutes ago and noticed at fishy/feces-like odor coming from the tank.

WHAT DO I DO?


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## Mark1988 (Jan 9, 2011)

Since you've only had the tank for two weeks, sounds to me like the tank didn't completely cycle. Ammonia will spike from time to time during the process and sometimes it takes awhile for the cycle to complete, sometimes it can take multiple weeks or even months on some cases. If you have the space in your established tank then keep them in there until you get steady parameters and ammonia goes down in multiple water tests. However there could be other factors.

If it was fully cycled... 
Did you also do a water change after the first fish died? 
If so do you make sure to treat tap water before putting it in the tank?
Did you slowly acclimate them to their new environment after you got them home?

Stress could also be the catalyst for the fish deaths and resulting ammonia spikes from decomposition granted your tank was fully cycled before populating it.

Also, live plants are great for O2 and controlling ammonia.

Also, *w2 from a fellow newbie to the forums.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you know about cycling a tank? Read up on that first. What is happening sounds fairly normal to me. Bacteria need a chance to build up in the tank to eat the ammonia. If you don't have fish in the tank I'd stop all water changes and treatments and do a 'fishless cycle'. Adding some substrate or filter media from your other tank will help speed this up.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

You wait it out. Petco should have never sold yo fish a tank in the same day. After ammonia you will see nitrite then nitrate then do a water change again...add you fish back...enjoy..

Check out one of the nitrogen cycle posts


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What is off the charts? How high is the ammonia? I would get some used filter media from your other tank and put in it. You can also get a nylon bag and put some of the gravel from your other tank also. This will get beneficial bacteria in your tank.

Once the ammonia comes down put the fish back in it. If the tank has heavy seeding from your established tank the cycling should be pretty quick. Just put 2 fish in there.


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

I generally agree with the others. 2 weeks is the typical time that water chemistry starts becoming a problem in brand new tanks. A few of your notes seem a little odd to me, but I may have misunderstood, so I'll ask for clarification.

You mention the results were fairly normal in the beginning. Could you be specific and tell us what they were? You said that after the third fish died, ammonia went through the roof, but what was it before that?

You've been changing the water since you took out the fish, but ammonia is still off the charts. How much water are you changing each time?

Most likely you had the typical ammonia spike, but I ask these questions to make sure there isn't something else going on as well.


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm super rushed right now so I'll only give a short reply. I know about the nitrogen cycle. I had to do some brushing up, but I knew what I was getting into before I got fish. Off the charts means literally off the chart that came with the test kit. The max is I believe 8.0mL. The water is very cloudy. I added some filter media from the established tank but it hasn't helped. I treat the tap water with Tetra AquaSafe Plus. I also use AmmoLock and a bacterial supplement . I acclimated the fish for 3 hours (sometimes 4) adding a little water every hour to half hour. I changed the water after the fish died.

Sorry for the rush. When I have time, I'll reply fully. Thanks for the help so far.


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## Mark1988 (Jan 9, 2011)

If that's the case then I'd bet money on your cycle just not being complete. Keep the fish in the other established tank, and give the new one some more time. Continue doing daily water tests, and when your parameters stay steady for a couple/few weeks (better safe than sorry) consecutively I'd say then slowly begin adding the fish. Once all this is done I would be surprised if your problem continued the way it is now considering the other maintenance/care habits you mentioned seem good.


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## berkokid (Jan 11, 2011)

something doesn't make sense. No fish and you've been changing out your water? Ammonia levels should be decreasing if there are no sources of ammonia.

If you've got nothing living in the tank and you've been changing your water out and your ammonia level's are not dropping something is strange. Any chance you're test kit is bad?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

The AmmoLock could be messing things up. I presume it is a product that stops the ammonia from being harmful to your fish but doesn't remove it from the water. The ammonia will still show on most test kits so it's hard to know what is really going on. It could also be messing up the cycle by making ammonia unavailable to bacteria. It deprives the water of oxygen so if you keep dosing your fish can suffocate. 

Other than that how long have you had the fish out of the tank and how big are your water changes? Even after the fish are removed there will still be new ammonia produced at least for a short time from the fish waste or any uneaten food in the tank.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

New uncycled tank + big bioload to start = bad things. Sry.

Fishy cycles can be tough if you don't stay on top of it as you have seen. Don't mess with the AmmoLock stuff. Let your tank cycle. Water changes are in store and you may want to look at a good gravel vac too.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Stop using Ammolock and any other chemicals!!! Isn't the "plus" in Aquasafe plus have something for ammonia? which would mean you're adding two things to fight ammonia.


What are you using to test with? You need to do at least a 50% water change. The cycle will still take some time, even with media from another tank. You need to a complete series of test after you do a water change....ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph. Wait a couple of hours after your water change.


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm doing at LEAST a 25% water change every other day, but I do 50% changes most of the time. I'm going to stop using the ammonia control stuff and see what happens. The test kit is good. I check on the forementioned fish tank. I vacumm the sand EVERY time I change the water. What about the nasty smell coming from it?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I think some water conditioners have a bit of a sulfur smell but nasty smells are not unusual in a tank that is cycling, I think it will pass when the cycle has finished.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> I think some water conditioners have a bit of a sulfur smell but nasty smells are not unusual in a tank that is cycling, I think it will pass when the cycle has finished.


+1

Yeppers, they are sulfur compounds.

And what happens is that most ammonia test kits like the api liguid test kit measures all type of ammonia not just the dangerous free ammonia.

So you add ammonia lock, still test ammonia, add more lock etc etc etc.

even if the first addition locked up all the free ammonia and the tank is as safe as it's going to get.

Meanwhile the chemicals also lock up oxygen. Hence you can do the above and wind up killing everything by suffocation even though the ammonia was safe after the first treatment.

FWIW what I do is just add live plants and consume the ammonia that way. And in the process also consume carbon dioxide and return oxygen as well.

But that's just my .02


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks everyone. These are all great ideas. I guess I'll just have to wait.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Let us know how it goes.


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

Will do!


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

Well 5 days later, I finally gave up. There was a LOT of stuff that I found wrong when tanking apart the tank.

1)Broken glass thermometer
2)Decomposing stickers from decor
3)Rotting fish parts hiding in the sand/plants
4)Absolutely the WORST smell I have ever smelled in the bottom of the tank


Just swapped the sand in favor of gravel for easier cleaning. Guess I'm starting over! Any tips on doing in right this time?


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## bmoore09 (Nov 20, 2010)

Thats just too many fish to start with. 10 gallon tank I think 2-3 small fish max until the cycle is complete IMO.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Yes, do a fishless cycle: Add 1 flake of fish food every day per 10 gallons of tank and keep an eye on your test results. When you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and small amount of nitrates your cycle is established. confirm this by waiting a few extra days to make sure the numbers don't change. Keep adding the flakes every day until you add the fish, then they will provide the ammonia.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

+1 if you do it like that there should be no problems.

It sounds like the dead fish were causing the high ammonia and bad small. Good you caught the broken heater.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't have started over.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

It would have been quicker if you didn't start over but now that you have just make sure you give it time and add stock slowly when you do.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mattxhand said:


> Well 5 days later, I finally gave up. There was a LOT of stuff that I found wrong when tanking apart the tank.
> 
> 1)Broken glass thermometer
> 2)Decomposing stickers from decor
> ...


every tank I have torn down after years of operation had that foul smell in the substrate. But it does look you found some other stuff.


For my money I would do a "beaslbob" build. (but then you would expect that from a beaslbob *old dude). Several threads here on that method. Basically using peat/sand/pc select (or gravel) for a substrate, heavy planting right from the start, letting the tank alone for a week, then adding fish slowly.

no filters, no circulation, no water changes.

But that's just my thoughts.


my .02


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## mattxhand (Jan 11, 2011)

I was going to do a fishless cycle, but I'd probably mess it up. I changed the substrate to gravel and am cycling with a bacterial suppliment and 3 Zebra Danios. Everything looks good so far!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The beauty of a fishless cycle is you can't mess it up.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

^+1 If there are no fish in the tank you can't mess up. Cycling with fish works too but get ready to do 50% water changes every day if you need to.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

^^-1 (LOL)

with lotsa plants and waiting a week before adding fish, then only adding a few and not feeding for a week, then finally feeding very lightly, there is no ammonia and no need for any water changes.

just my .02


ps I have actually done it much faster then that with a much heavier bioload and still not lost fish. So that schedule I consider very safe.


my .02 of .02=.0004


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> ^^-1 (LOL)
> 
> with lotsa plants and waiting a week before adding fish, then only adding a few and not feeding for a week, then finally feeding very lightly, there is no ammonia and no need for any water changes.
> 
> ...


But this tank isn't planted is it? Of course there are other ways of doing it but the point is it's hard to go wrong with a fishless cycle.


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## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

mattxhand said:


> Thanks everyone. These are all great ideas. I guess I'll just have to wait.


Yes. And while you're waiting, you can set up a Quarantine Tank for fish you eventually want in your display tank. 

You'll have to cycle the Quarantine Tank as well...but if your display is cycling, this is a perfect opportunity to set that up as well.

You won't need much: filter, heater, hiding places (pvc piping works well, and/or some small fake aquarium decorations). The tank doesn't have to be big either. I use a 10G, & it works perfectly.

This way, not only can you watch your fish in it to see how they look/behave before you put them in your tank, but also how they feed as well. It's worth the money spent if you ask me.


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