# my 20 gallon tank, too many fish?



## dog523 (May 9, 2012)

hi, do you think this is too many fish for a 20gallon? have had this setup for over a year, the amount of fish i mean has always been between 20 and 25. I know im breaking the inch rule sometimes but 4 of them are bottom feeders and they do a good job of cleaning up the tank. They all get along, sometimes the Angelfish has a temper and chases others but its never violent. The plecos are no more than 3 inches long because i had them for 2 years before i found out youre supposed to feed them pellets and algae. The 5 remaining guppies are babies of previous guppies which started appearing in the tank to our surprise. At one point had 15 babies, they lived about a year and a half which ive read is typical. So recent additions from 2 months ago were added to replace the guppies and the tank remains a nice place, no fighting. Was looking to get a 50 gallon at some point soon too anyway. In 2 years ive never used a test kit, just change 20% of the water every 2 weeks and have had no sudden die offs, had ick twice and fixed easily with Quick Cure in 3 days. Got the red tail 2 months ago and i know he might get a bit bigger, so far hes the same size as the full grown loach about 3 inches. They never fight as the loach usually resides in the upper part of the castle with 1 pleco in the lower part. Even when they both are feeding and bump into each other nothing happens. The red tail never hides, just always swimming around bottom feeding. Had a shrimp for a few months but he died after molting, loved that shrimp, maybe ill get another in the future.

1 angelfish(not growing anymore past 3 inches)
1 clown loach
1 red tail shark
2 plecos different types
1 glass catfish
2 silver hatchets
3 tiger barbs
5 guppies
2 red neon tetras
1 red minor serpae tetra
2 unknown white tetras
2 orange platys
2 danio glofish(1 red and 1 yellow)
also have 2 real plants, 1 fake plant, a large castle with seperate hiding sections and a cave. The bottom feeders love the hiding spots.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Ummm, the best way I can think of saying this is I am surprised that the glass hasn't busted out of your tank from overstocking. We have also found that the 1 inch rule tends to be generally wrong. I strongly recommend doing some more research on some of the fish you have in there about suggested tank sizes.


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

dog523 said:


> 1 angelfish(not growing anymore past 3 inches)
> 1 clown loach
> 1 red tail shark
> 2 plecos different types
> ...


Egads... Short answer, yes you are seriously overstocked. Just because nothing's died yet doesn't mean you're not headed for a tank crash. Especially once those all reach their adult sizes... You're on borrowed time at best, especially if you're not overfiltering and doing large (50% or so) weekly water changes. Having bottom feeders does NOT lessen your overstocking issues, as they all create waste just like any other fish.

Long answer: 
1. Clown loaches are supposed to be kept in a group, and get HUGE (like 12"+). You need to rehome that guy or you'll be stunting his growth and stressing him to the point that he's an easy target for disease.
2. All those barbs, tetras, danios, catfish, and hatchet fish are schoolers as well. Keeping them in 1s, 2s, or 3s tends to stress them and they generally won't school together unless they're with very similar species. They do best with 5+ members of their own species to run around with.
3. The specific type that the plecos are is going to be VERY important. Most fish stores sell common plecos, which need 150 gallon or larger tanks since they grow to be close to 2 feet long. Just because your plecos are only 3" doesn't necessarily mean they're a small type, as their growth is almost certainly being stunted by the overstocking.
4. I HIGHLY recommend you plug all your equipment and fish into the stocking calculator on Aqadvisor.com... It's only a guide, but it's a good starting point to figure out which fish need re-homing and what each fish needs to be happy. It takes the actual bio load of each fish species into account, which makes it more reliable than the 1" of fish per gallon rule. That should at least get you back on the right path for figuring out what is at least in the ballpark for what your tank can handle. You'll have less problems if you stick to a 70% stocking level, as 100% stocking is more prone to crashing if you have any equipment failures or if you're not the most experienced with fish keeping yet.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Also your angel at full size should be bigger than your hand. If it isn't growing anymore, it's guts still are and will most likely have some serious health complications.


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## Jareth (Apr 25, 2012)

I can't imagine the bio in that tank and all the water changes you do.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You assume water changes, at least ones large enough, actually get done.

You could double your tank size and you'd be overstocked. A few of those shouldn't even be in that small of a tank. Question is, now that you know what will you do?


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## dog523 (May 9, 2012)

thanks alot for the replies and info, i was not aware until just recently that Angelfish get that big, i thought they stay pretty small. I also had no idea that loaches can grow to a foot, but this one has been 3 inches for over 2 years now, he is not growing anymore and he is healthy and swims very well. He is the oldest fish in the tank now.

Like i said im going to be getting a 50 gallon which should be enough room for all of them. Never really got into reasearching stuff about the fish until now. Thankfully so far havent had any major problems with sickness and dying fish. Gonna buy a test kit to check out the water conditions. Also removed the cave to make more swimming room as nobody ever uses it to hide in as the castle is big enough for loach and the small pleco.

One of the pleco's is actually not a pleco, i looked through photos on liveaquaria.com and found him, hes a Loricaria Cat, looks like a long thin light brown pleco. The other one looks like a "common pleco" from pictures ive seen, sort of dark color with spots. He hasnt grown at all since we got him over 2 years ago, hes maybe 2 inches or slightly less. Originally he and loach and 15 guppies lived in a 10 gallon tank. Then over a year ago we got a 20 gallon tank and they still didnt grow at all after that. They seem healthy though i cant say either of them has ever had any health problem or even looked sick. Is it possible that they would suddenly start growing if moved to a 50 gallon?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The Loach is not growing anymore because f the size of the tank. The size of the tank will actually stunt the growth of the fish and will eventually kill it. Same for the Angel more than likely.

I would keep the 20 also. Some may be better to split. Still a lot of fish for a 50g.


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

dog523 said:


> Like i said im going to be getting a 50 gallon which should be enough room for all of them. Never really got into reasearching stuff about the fish until now.


...Even in a 50 gallon you're going to be overstocked, and that's still ignoring the fact that you don't have enough of each schooling species. Seriously, try the aqadvisor.com calculator. That's the fastest way to get a ballpark idea of if you're setting yourself up for disaster later or not. Actual experience and such is a better judge, but that will at least give you a starting point. Do your fish a favor and plan for their final sizes/temperment rather than stunting their growth and forcing their insides to grow all jammed.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

If you want to keep all those fish you will need at least a 150gal 6ft long tank. I have some clown loaches that in 1 year grew from 2 inches to almost 6 inches so I would imagine yours are stunted. And the same for the pleco. There are many plecos that stay small but commons will get over 2 ft I have one that is 18 inches, one that is about 10 inches and I have had him about 2 years, and got him when he was 2 inches.

All the fish you have except for the angel, red tail shark and plecos need to be in groups of 5+ in order to be happy.


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## dog523 (May 9, 2012)

i appreciate all the advice from everyone and youre probably all very knowledgeable but i dont understand why they need to be in schools of 5+ to be "happy". They look and act pretty happy right now, they hang out with other types of fish and they dont fight.

the loach and the 2 plecos are not going to start growing all of a sudden, they havent grown in over 2 years and they are doing just fine. 

I understand according to "the rules" my tank is overstocked but seriously this tank has been this way with 20+ fish for over a year with no major diseases or die offs. I repeat i have never even tested the water so i must be doing something right with the 20% water change every 2 weeks. I mean seriously youre going to tell me that my tank is worse than how they jam 30 of the same fish in a 10 gallon tank at the stores with a few dead ones left at the bottom?

If this tank has been a success like this for over a year, then im pretty sure a 50 gallon tank is more than enough for these fish. Their universe is suddenly going to get more than double bigger, id be pretty happy about that if i was a fish.


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Swimming around and being active isn't necessarily "happy", and the stores where they jam all the fish into a teeny tank are temporary conditions. That is never sustainable long term...

Do some research on what happens to a fish that is in too small a tank. Just because you can't see anything wrong does not mean that nothing is wrong. We can't see and test for everything. If you were stuck in a box no bigger than half your adult size as a kid doesn't mean you won't have health issues when your insides all grow into each other because they have nowhere else to grow... Lets compare this to another type of pet ownership... Would you buy 20 cats and stuff them all in a crate and expect them to live fine?

But hey, it's your fish. You came here looking for advice, and you're refusing what every single person is telling you. We can't make you listen to what common, scientifically proven, fish keeping research and best practices developed over the last few decades has taught the community. Empirical evidence is always 100% accurate, right?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

luananeko said:


> Swimming around and being active isn't necessarily "happy", and the stores where they jam all the fish into a teeny tank are temporary conditions. That is never sustainable long term...
> 
> Do some research on what happens to a fish that is in too small a tank. Just because you can't see anything wrong does not mean that nothing is wrong. We can't see and test for everything. If you were stuck in a box no bigger than half your adult size as a kid doesn't mean you won't have health issues when your insides all grow into each other because they have nowhere else to grow... Lets compare this to another type of pet ownership... Would you buy 20 cats and stuff them all in a crate and expect them to live fine?
> 
> But hey, it's your fish. You came here looking for advice, and you're refusing what every single person is telling you. We can't make you listen to what common, scientifically proven, fish keeping research and best practices developed over the last few decades has taught the community. Empirical evidence is always 100% accurate, right?


*i/a* :dont_tap_the_glass:


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Don't forget that you came asking the questions....

I thought it was funny how in the same sentence you said that you must be doing something right and you've never tested your water when both statements just scream ignorance. You haven't done things right just because it worked because you don't know the right way to go about it, it has just been one of those lucky cases that you read about from time to time. My guess is that once they get moved it will throw off the balance and then you'll start having issues. 

One way or the other I feel sorry for your fish. I would be very surprised if you didn't already have plans to buy more fish once you have the bigger tank.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The lack of growth from fish you should expect to become large is a sign that things are not right in your tank. Even without testing the water, that is out there for you to see. The fish are alive, but they aren't thriving. I'd say from reading your posting that you expected confirmation that all was well, and you haven't gotten that.
You are going to have to deal with the clown loach, red-tail and pleco issues, even in a 50. Eventually, the way you are keeping those fish will bring the tank down - I'd predict an eventual bacterial outbreak. You are doing something right with the water changes - you just aren't doing enough of it. You are on the right track. If you step it up and improve the water management, you will reduce the growth inhibiting hormones and toxins in the water and get normal, healthy fish growth. You have accidentally achieved a balance built on controlled levels of toxic pollution, which you have to admit sounds like an unstable proposition...
I don't like keeping shoaling fish alone as I'm into watching fish behavior, but i don't think it's a big issue. The issue is the stunted growth caused by extreme overcrowding.


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## dog523 (May 9, 2012)

im pretty sure most people new to the hobby with basic tanks dont do much research either, at least im now doing research and gaining knowledge

Now that i know im overstocked i am not buying any more fish even when i get the 50. I dont want to make them feel crowded especially if the angel and redtail keep growing.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

The problem isn't so much them feeling crowded as it is them getting stunted. Stunting means the body don't grow but the guts do. It usually ends up in shortened lifespans and an array of other problems. Also with overstocking you end up with water quality issues that causes more health problems. You will find many people here are passionate about this hobby and can get a little heated at times.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

This is a good demonstration of a fish haver, not taking into account of the damage that is being done to the fish or even really caring.

You came in here asking questions you got reasonable answers. And yes you will end up with a lot of problems even putting the fish into a 50. The growth rates has already stopped on several of those fish and you will someday soon start experiencing problems to no end.

Good luck with your venture. Read all you want here, ask questions but until your ready to listen it will be of no use, you will get the same type of answers your getting here.


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## Jareth (Apr 25, 2012)

dog523 said:


> Now that i know im overstocked i am not buying any more fish even when i get the 50.


Add 100 to that 50


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