# seeding new tank from established tank



## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi. I'm new to the site, but not new to the hobby. Still, I've been away from fish-keeping for 6 years and I'm in the process of researching and relearning. 

I am ashamed to admit that I previously and naively cycled with zebra danios. This time, I am determined to do a fishless cycle. 

I don't have my tank yet. I'm doing a lot of research before getting started. I'm looking at either a 29 gal or 38 gal tank. 

I may have access to a friend's established 20 gal hexagon tank and would like to seed from that tank to get my cycle started. The established tank only has 1 molly and two platies. 

I've read that I can use some gravel from the established tank to give my tank's cycle a jump start. I haven't found any information about how much gravel to use. Would 1/2 a cup be enough? 

I've also read about using some filter material from the existing tank or adding a new filter to the existing tank and leaving it for a few weeks. Is this a better option than the gravel option? Would combining both options be even better? 

Should I have any concerns about damaging the balance in the existing tank? I don't want to cause my friends or their fish any hardship. Since my tank would be fishless through its cycling process, would returning the borrowed gravel after the cycle cause any problems to the existing tank? What should I do to protect the existing tank. 

I plan for my tank to be a low-tech planted tank. Would getting the plants started immediately help cycle the tank? 

I've read that running the tank at a higher than normal temperature may also speed the process along. What temperature would be best? Would a higher temperature harm the plants if I decide to plant the tank immediately? 

I apologize for so many questions, but I want to do it right this time. I appreciate any feedback. :animated_fish_swimm


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Running your filter for 2 weeks in an established tank would do the trick.
So would adding mature media from a running filter so long as you maintain aerobic conditions for the bacteria during this period.
If you plan on lots of plants - especially fast growing stem plants - even if you discard them later - just give the plants a few days to adjust and add the fish slowly. The trick is to get the plants to soak up all the fish's waste and give the bacteria a chance to thrive before water conditions become dangerous.
You'll still want an API test kit though 
cb


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Hello j...

You can safely cycle a tank with Danios. Fancy Guppies, Platys & White Clouds are also good, hardy fish. You just need to pay close attention to the water chemistry. I cycled my first tank with feeder Guppies and they survived my "learning curve". I put in the fish and their waste started the cycling process. I just tested daily for ammonia and nitrites. When a test showed a trace of either, I changed out at least a quarter of the tank water. I did this until several tests showed "0" for these toxins and then I added a few more fish. Just followed these steps until the tank was stocked.

Start with the largest tank you can. The larger, the more water to dilute mistakes. I used a 30 G and it worked fine.

Anything with a surface inside an established tank will have good bacteria living on it. So, use gravel, a decoration, plants, used media, etc. All these will help with the cycling process.

B


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm with CB. If you can run your filter along with your friends in their tank for a couple weeks you will have accumulated an ample supply of bacteria.I have always thought substrate and items in tank are helpful also but many here feel little comes with substrate(possibly spoiled by cycled filter media{obviously better}).Some substrate certainly won't hurt(if friends tank is healthy) and if you plan on not keeping it, use a mesh bag to contain it. 80 would probably be high enough(upper limit of acceptabilty for most fish and plants{I read your fishless, just saying}).No damage should occur to your friends tank.If you can't run filter try getting some media(ceramic rings,pad ,floss) and placing in your friends filter.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I agree with what everyone has said, but would like to add that the cycled media will only be able to keep up with a similar bio load. If you plan on a larger stocking level it will still need to at least mini-cycle in order to keep up with it.


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm confused by my current water parameter readings. I've posted a question here. :fish9:


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

what size tank and filter? When did you set it up?are you adding ammonia or do you have fish in it?
Your readings are a little unusaull,but some of the above info may help
Never mind I just read your next post.
Possibly the ammonia test liquids have been effected, but that seems a strech.
Changing water again shouldn't hurt,possibly try PRIME to condition water as it converts ammonia to less toxic form.
Having someone else(petco) check couldn't hurt either.
Having ammonia in source water is trouble(but not completely uncommon).I think PRIME would be better for you with that taken into consideration.


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

I posted my question here. 

This is the original text:



jpalimpsest said:


> I'm confused by my water parameter test results. I'm 23 days into a fishless cycle with seeding material. Until now, my readings have followed the expected course. Previously I have needed to add pure ammonia every other day to keep the levels at ~1.5-2.0ppm. However, for ~3 days, my ammonia level has not budged from ~1.5ppm. I have not added any pure ammonia during that time. Meanwhile, my nitr*I*tes have spiked and now read zero and my nitr*A*tes have consistently climbed. (Note: my straight-from-the-tap water is reading .5ppm ammonia.)
> 
> Am I wrong to think that the ammonia level should be reading zero or at least dropping if my Nitr*I*tes spiked and now read zero? I'm not sure if my ammonia reading is inaccurate, or if there is something else going on with my tank water.
> 
> ...


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

~12 hours after raising ammonia to 3.0ppm and adding baking soda --
Ammonia: 1.5ppm (that dreaded number again!)
NitrItes: ~3.0-4.0ppm
NitrAtes: ~40ppm (unchanged)
pH 7.6


Note: Baking soda was added based on advice in another forum to raise my pH. It had fallen from 7.5 to 6.5. The lower pH may have contributed to my cycling troubles.

I'll test again in 12 hrs. Fingers crossed that the ammonia will continue to drop.


It looks like I'm going through a mini-cycle, although I haven't been able to determine the cause. Guess I'll just ride it out.


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

My fishless cycle is finally back on track *w3 My ammonia is dropping from 3.0ppm to 0.25ppm in a 12 hour period. I continue to raise it back to 3.0ppm daily with pure ammonia. I just need my nitr*i*tes (> 5.0ppm) to drop. I admit to obsessively testing nitr*i*tes more than once a day. I'm so ready for fishies!! My nitr*a*tes are ~60ppm. 


To keep myself busy, I ordered a few more plants from Bartohog in another forum. I'll probably have more than I need, but I couldn't resist. Mainly I wanted Brazillian Pennywort. I ended up ordering:

Brazilian pennywort _Hydrocotyle leucocephala _
_Crypt. balansae _
dwarf water clover _Marsilea minuta _
pennywort _Hydrocotyle tripartita _
_Echinodorus angustifolia 'Vesuvius' _
I'm not sure if the _Marsilea minuta _ or _Hydrocotyle tripartita _ will survive in my medium light, no CO2 tank. I guess we'll found out. My new plants will be shipped on Saturday and should arrive early next week. 
*banana dance


I have had a mild outbreak of MTS *td I think the ammonia and lack of food is keeping the population in check, but I do find and dispose of 1-2/day. Since I'm not planning to add any snail eating fish, I'll have to be cautious about overfeeding. 


My final stocking list includes:

spotted blue-eye rainbowfish _Pseudomugil gertrudae_ 
sparkling gouramis (aka pygmy gouramis) _Trichopsis pumila_ 
celestial pearl danios _Celestichthys margaritatus _
scarlet badis _Dario dario _
red cherry shrimp _Neocaridina heteropoda var. red _
amano shrimp _Caridina multidentata _
bamboo shrimp (aka wood shrimp) _Atyopsis moluccensis _
zerba nerite snails _Neritina natalensis sp. Zebra _
and apparently MTS

The largest thing in the tank will be the bamboo shrimp. I don't really have a centerpiece fish, but I think I'm okay with that. I originally planned for a pair of apistos, but I decided the Scarlet badis may be safer with the shrimp. 

I would love a school of glowlight rasboras _Trigonostigma hengeli _ and dwarf cories _Corydoras hastatus_, but I know that larger schools of less species is better asthetically. 

I also wish I could get an assassin snail to take care of the MTS, but I think I would rather have the zebra nerite. Plus, I'm told the MTS _can_ be beneficial the tank if the population is carefully managed.

That's all for now!


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

My new plants arrived today! I've planted them, but I'm not positive about the placement of a few. I used pieces of plant weights to anchor some of the plants that didn't want to stay in the substrate. 

More great news, my tank is fully cycled and ready for fish. I'm shopping around for source options. 

In not so great news, ALGAE! I need to get some algae eaters in there, but I can't get the shrimp or snails I want locally. Hopefully the algae won't get too out of control before I can stock a clean up crew.

Now for some photos (please excuse the algae):


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## chipmunk1210 (Jul 3, 2012)

Your tank looks like it is coming along very nicely. The plants look great and personally I do not see any algae(although I am sure that you have some since most tanks will have some when starting out). I have scarlet badis and cherry shrimp in the same tank and they are a great combination. I do have a concern that the scarlets may be a bit shy compared with your other fish choices so don't be surprised if they hide a lot of the time. With your substrate, having some MTS is actually a good thing. They stir the substrate up so that you don't have to. Their numbers can usually be kept in control with not overfeeding. Although I do tend to overfeed some to keep the numbers up in my tank so they can be a good source of food for my assasin snails. Keep the pics coming!!


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

chipmunk1210 said:


> I do have a concern that the scarlets may be a bit shy compared with your other fish choices so don't be surprised if they hide a lot of the time.


Thanks for the feedback. I have done, or tried to do, a lot of research on the fish I plan to stock with the Scarlet Badis. All of the fish have been described as "timid" and/or "easily outcompeted for food." Based on that, and their diminutive sizes, I felt like they should make good tankmates. 

I do like the idea of fish that aren't always front and center in the tank. Spotting one unexpectedly is kind of fun. I have an armchair right next to the tank where I do a lot of reading. I think, if I sit still enough, I'll get a glimpse or two :goldfish:

I'm actually more concerned about feeding the Scarlet Badis due to their finicky appetite. I know they strongly prefer live foods and will sometimes accept frozen foods. I'll only add Scarlet Basic if/when I'm sure that I'll be able to provide live food, just to be safe. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a few less finicky specimen. 

I had considered apistogrammas or GBRs instead of the Scarlet Badis, but then I worry about the shrimp.


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## chipmunk1210 (Jul 3, 2012)

My scarlets live on frozen bbs as a main diet. This is supplemented with micoworms when my culture is up and running or sometimes live bbs. They will also pick at the shrimp food I add in there for the RCS. Yeah you might run into a problem with the GBR or apisto eating your shrimp if you went that route.

Oh and I would wait to add the bamboo shrimp until after your tank has been up and running for a while(say 6 months or so) as they need an established tank with good water flow.


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## jpalimpsest (Dec 4, 2012)

chipmunk1210 said:


> I would wait to add the bamboo shrimp until after your tank has been up and running for a while(say 6 months or so) as they need an established tank with good water flow.


Of course bamboo shrimp are the _only_ species on my list that are actually in stock locally. Everything else I have to order online or obtain through a special order at the LFS. 

When I do add the bamboo shrimp, I plan to center the filter so the output is right at the top point of the driftwood. Hopefully (s)he will like it up there.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Tank looks very nice!Enjoy the festival of stocking.


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