# before electricity, LFS's; and beaslbob



## Fisheye (Dec 10, 2011)

before electricity, water additives, filtration and
LFS's, etc. did people care for aquariums the same way
beaslbob does??


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## drunkenbeast (Nov 13, 2011)

very good lol, suppose it was a pond or something eh lol even ponds have filters now a days though haha


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

*r2 ........... sorry ...........


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

oh dear....


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## Fisheye (Dec 10, 2011)

drunkenbeast and holly12, i'm serious. how did people
care for their aquariums before electricity and all of the
things we have for aquariums today? i'm a nooby but
beaslybob's methods seem natural.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Honestly I dont think people had aquariums before there was electricity. Ponds, yea. Mason jars kids caught fish in down by the creek, maybe. Actual aquariums i doubt. I dont even know if thye would have had the ability to make one, i'm no expert on history but to cut glass and seal it so it doesnt leak i think it takes a bit of technology, not to mention the heating issues that would come with having a tank in a house heated by a fire.....I think they were more concerned with hunting for their food and caring for their farms to have aquariums as a hobby.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

True. I've only read of ppl keeping them with filters way back.... would be interesting to see the filters! They were probably huuuuuuge!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well for one thing, before electricity I would say not many people kept fish tanks. Another thing you won't get to many people that will say that beaslbobs way is a natural way as it isn't. There is no body of water that doesn't have a turnover of freshwater at any given time.
Stagnant ponds are just that, stagnant. Very few fish can be kept in these kind of conditions. Some will survive but will not thrive or live as long as they should.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

- Aquarium History

as that link explains, most fish keeping in the early times was for food reasons.... as an ornemental hobby it didnt come about until much later, and there was still a lot of studies being done on the scientific aspects of it (as in, probably learning about nitrogen cycle) So it would seem that the long and short of it is that people didnt keep fish as PETS commonly until much later, after the depression era (no one could afford such a priveledge) and when there was electricity.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

*gasp* water changes? THE INSANITY!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

*pc ^ I just choked on my popcorn a little bit.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Did they treat their water with chlorine though?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The problem is, early aquarists couldn't do natural. Water moves in nature, and is a dynamic force. Still weedy tanks as Bob advocates aren't natural. They are artificial chemistry experiments.
I had a friend who got his first tank at 18, and died at 96 a few years ago. He had equipment from the 1930s I got to look at - air pumps, corner box filters, candle holders...
From the get go, aquarists tried to find solutions to the problems of water movement, filtration and fish survival. They experimented with a lot of species in very small tanks (before silicone radically increased tank size), and kept only fish that could tolerate room temperatures. Mexican livebearers were huge, along with paradise fish, guppies and native fish. 
My friend described it as a time of experimentation and attempted problem solving. They knew the kind of tank beaslbob sells did not work for the health of the fish, and they were desperate to move beyond that. Planted tanks were not popular because the lighting wasn't there, and fish came first. Stagnant tanks were too limiting, and new, more demanding species kept coming in from nature.
They bought them from a department store here, and they arrived in tin boxes on freighters. Fish were very expensive, and you could not afford to kill them by keeping them in inappropriate conditions. They looked into nature and tried to understand the conditions their fish came from, since they weren't disposable/easily replaced the way many view them now. They wanted to breed their fish to assure a supply, and often had to wait a few years for new importations of tetras or rasboras.
They did have a weird, almost mystical belief in the powers of "old water". You were NEVER supposed to change water, as it would lose its goodness. 
The scrapping of that idea was one of the best advances in this hobby.
My friend's oldest air pump had a huge flywheel and was about the size of an average microwave. It produced one bubble at every two seconds, in eight inches of water. But it was better than nothing.

Before electricity, it was the beaslbob method, but almost exclusively with single paradise fish (air breathing fish). The houses weren't really heated either.
I've read, in old aquarium books, that non air-breathing, gill dependent fish often died at night when plants stopped producing oxygen. I guess that would happen with any level of crowding, or the stocking levels we take for granted now - I don't know. It may also have been ammonia. But people were worried about it. 
I have some aquarium magazines from the 1940s, with unbelievably racist articles about collecting in Africa. On their positive side, they show a constant search for solutions to heat and filtration problems.

Tanks are on record in Europe I think, from the 1840s. They were rare until ww2.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

So the point is, that we've advanced in technology and there is no longer the need to have stagnant tanks hanging around. And there you have it...


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## drunkenbeast (Nov 13, 2011)

*h/b


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

And always remember. cyanide and arsenic are natural products, and cannibalism, cholera and starvation are natural enough things. Just cause it's called 'natural' doesn't mean it's good natural.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

And just because it works, or has worked in the past, does not mean it's the best or right way to do it. In another 100 years they may look at "our" methods and think we were insane.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Aquarium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pretty interesting read

I was thinking the Chinese were probably the first people to keep fish indoors, but the Romans were.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

One of the aquarium books I had from my grandfather (which I stupidly lost along the way - I was a kid) advocated using an incandescent light bulb suspended into the water (electrocution time!) as a heater. 

The tanks I had as a kid were old ones given to me by relatives. One had a slate bottom, so you could put a candle under it and it wouldn't crack. All were sealed with this horrible black pitch that dried out and leaked very easily - silicone was such a great development. You had to check tanks every morning for leaks.

There is one practical thing from all this - tanks were small, and fish were limited. I have a mania for wild-type livebearers, and many of the wild species I keep were popular back around WW2 or before, and then fell out of fashion. In many cases, even modern texts and the internet have inherited the information that they are vicious, nasty characters. In most cases, they aren't -in a modern aquarium. In the 2-5 gallon tanks people had back them, they were hellions, just as all cichlids except angels had a reputation as horrible beasts. You have to take the old info critically, as their idea of an aquarium was different from ours. A ten gallon was a big tank. 

Lack of filtration or weak filtration added to that. I experimented a little with 'mean' South American cichlids and current, and am finding that a number of fish considered bad characters in the hobby aren't when there is more than one powerhead blasting away. They become quite cheerful and peaceful. If you look up their habitats, invariably, you find a river with a strong current, or even pools in rapids. They have had to evolve the energy levels and behavior that keeps you in one place (your hard won territory) in fast water, and in a still aquarium, all that energy and strength is wasted on fighting. They get bored in unnatural tanks. 

So in the end, to me, the beaslbob method is designed for a single air breathing paradise fish or other cool water Anabantoid, and no other fish. If you are satisfied looking at that and not learning anything new from your tank, go for it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Filters were an evolutionary item, for sure. Natural tanks have been around for a while and Walstad probably got them well known. That name is thrown around more than any other. Beasl's ideas aren't his own as everything he does has been done many times over even before he was born probably.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's an old one:


Aquariums have certainly existed for a long time, long before electricity, though they weren't common. I've seen brass framed tanks from the late 1800's still in use at a museum/public aquarium in Lisbon (Portugal), I've got pics somewhere. Of course I'm sure the life expectancy wasn't great of many of the fish living in those tanks.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I've been to Lisbon....pretty cool place.


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## Fisheye (Dec 10, 2011)

but that doesn't make him wrong, does it???



jrman83 said:


> >>>>Beasl's ideas aren't his own as everything he does has been done many times over even before he was born probably.<<<<


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Walstead methods differ from bobs by the fact she does suggest using powerheads or a filter for some water movement. Plants need that movement to help bring the nurtients to them, not just fish swimming by the plants will work good enough. I've seen pics of bobs tanks and the plants do not look to be healthy enough to thrive. To maintain healthy plants will cause healthy fish. Plus the fact that the fish need some fresh water and movement to thrive as does plants.

Bob's method of not using dechlorinator can be wrong also because if the city water is using chloramine, that does not evaporate and will cause long term damage to the fish.
Which is barely crossing the line of cruelty, and advising new people not to use it is promoting that cruelty to others.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Bob's methods are interesting if you understand the big picture of what he is doing. My problem is that he advocates passionately, and incompletely - it makes a limited system look over all good. I am sure he struggled with many aspects of his system, and likely killed a lot of fish and plants discovering the limited number that could survive in that set-up. And yet, he presents his system as if it works across the board.
I use very few heaters, but if I advise someone to follow my system, I will also tell them how I choose fish carefully to go with that. It certainly reduces the number of species I can keep in those tanks. I won't tell everyone to do it all the time. It is a specific set-up for specific species. Bob doesn't present his set-up that way. 
I use no dechlorinators, but I will tell people my municipality uses simple chlorine, and never chloramine, and that I change water at 25%. To tell you to use no dechlorinator if you have chloramine will burn the gills of your fish, and possibly cause respiratory failure. Bob doesn't change water, ever. But he doesn't say that in every posting, and that is misleading for new aquarists.

His ideas are not "wrong", if you want a stagnant tank with one air breathing fish per five gallons. They have been proven effective for such a set-up. They have been proven otherwise for gill breathing fish, which will suffer in his set-up, and for easily 99% of the fish available. It can be used for paradise fish, although I would not subject a fish to that. There is no other fish I would consider for a beaslbob build.

jccaclimber rejects his system from the perspective of a skilled planted tank keeper. I reject it from the point of view of a fish-first aquarist. Bob answers no criticisms, and just tells people he has an easier way. It's not natural, but it will work for you if you accept its limitations. However, those limitations are huge.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

How cool is that tank Snail posted^ , Man that would look sweet in my garden.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

While I don't agree with everything, bob has some good methods, personally I think if you add an air stone, prime and water changes you've got potential for a great tank. And lots of people have learned useful stuff from him, it's just what navigator black said about him advocating passionately and incompletely, he'll jump in on a post by a complete newbie struggling with an overstocked, cycling tank, gravel substrate and next to no lighting (for plants to grow) and tell them to stop doing water changes, at least that's what they understand out of it. Other members get fed up of running around after him doing damage control. If you are around here Bob, can I just suggest that you start some posts of your own to share your experiences with the method you use, that way people can discuss the pros and cons in an instructional manner without taking over so many posts by poor newbies asking simple questions about the setup they have. I think that could be quite helpful without confusing people.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fisheye said:


> but that doesn't make him wrong, does it???


Depends on your view I guess. I wasn't referring to that really, only that his signature build (if you wanted to call it that) really isn't his idea. Layering has been around longer than he has and peat is sometimes used although Walstad says not to use peat becuase it rots and causes sulfuric acid buildup.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

navigator black said:


> One of the aquarium books I had from my grandfather (which I stupidly lost along the way - I was a kid) advocated using an incandescent light bulb suspended into the water (electrocution time!) as a heater.


lol, I don't think I'll be trying that!

Most of the early ornamental fish were very tough species. Goldfish are a good example, while I'm not saying it's a good idea it is possible to keep them alive for years in a goldfish bowl. 

Bettas of course are another one that can live under conditions other fish won't. They were bred way before electricity in Thailand, but of course Thailand has the climate for them too so no heaters needed.
betta history

I know pumpkin skin sunfish were introduced to some countries as an ornamental species. They are pretty and VERY tough. I have one which is another story but I picked it up off the mud by a puddle that was drying up (what was left of a seasonal stream). The water felt as hot as a bathtub and smelled terrible. Stuck him in a bucket of water for 24hrs until I could bring him home, and he's done great (now in an unheated 90 gallon tank).

EDIT: I found an interesting page about the history of bettas and have added the link.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Interesting.

Will basically just observe this thread.

One thing I see not mentioned is "open" systems.

I have heard for instance that the ancient Romans had tidal pools that received an almost complete water change every high tide. And probably a livestock change as well. *old dude

so back to sitting and observing.

.02 as usual


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Will basically just observe this thread.
> 
> ...


Yep, as usual no comment on the things you say on here that can lead astray. You must've thought it was just BS or something on what people have to say when you make your no water change/no dechlor comments and don't expound on them and more than just the "usual" bunch saying it in more than one thread.

That's okay. The ban button will work on you just like anyone else. If you want to continue to say that you don't use things like dechlor and then can't take a few secs to say why it is not quite as big of a deal for your setup, that is your choice. I can see why now you've been banned on numerous other sites as you have mentioned. Not because people don't want to hear your ideas because they are against what the majority would call right, but more because of the way that you put that info out there and disrupt the normal flow of forums and potentially endanger new people's setups just getting started.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Those links were great. It would be good to see *History of fishkeeping*. Ie how fish were cared for pre modern era.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I have heard for instance that the ancient Romans had tidal pools that received an almost complete water change every high tide. And probably a livestock change as well.


I wasn't really counting that because they were generally large outdoor tanks used for food, rather than indoor pets. Still it's quite impressive how advanced the systems were. Some used man made irrigation like aqueducts to supply the water.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

How about fish tanks on boats?
Did Roman sailors use tank to keep fish alive? 
A bit of speculation there, but still interesting.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

http://www.neaq.org/about_us/missio...rgotten_Aquariums_of_Boston_Third_Edition.pdf

I haven't read this, but it looks intriguing.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Very interesting, I might just read that

interesting picture on P23 


> Cutting’s aerator, patented in 1861
> The upper cylinder contained air and was open at the bottom. As it pushed
> downward (the weights at the top controlled its descent),water displaced the
> air, which was then conduced by a hose to the aquarium.


So it seems they were using aerators even before electricity!


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

Awsome thread


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

SuckMyCichlids said:


> Awsome thread


Yea we get some cool history on our hobby (we are in the second largest hobby next to stamp collecting, in the world) and get to learn how they did things back then. 

and Ben and Bob discussions all in 1 thread.*r2
I'm goin follow this one till the end*pc

Come on Bob, defend your "ideas" and tell us why you do the things you do.
I know there are actually alot of people out there trying to perfect the no filter, plants and fish only method, I just dont understand why they would do this.

Its funny about using Lightbulbs dangling in the water as heat, actually the fish would be fine, so would you as long as the bulb doesnt break or the socket does get wet or "jump" electricity to the water. even then the fish would be fine since you would have to be standing on the floor to complete the circuit and get Zapped. but i'll take my submersible heaters everyday, which in itself as been a huge step in heating as far as I'm concerned. it wasnt that long ago all we had were the hang over the rim style that required certain water levels, hood knockouts, not pretty to look at either.


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## Fishaholic (Jan 16, 2012)

hanky said:


> Yea we get some cool history on our hobby (we are in the second largest hobby next to stamp collecting, in the world) and get to learn how they did things back then.
> 
> and Ben and Bob discussions all in 1 thread.*r2
> I'm goin follow this one till the end*pc
> ...


Hey! I've still got those heaters! Hoping to upgrade to submersibles sometime this decade *r2


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

As a matter of fact look at the design of the HOB heaters,they are very similiar to an incandescent bulb.Can really see where the idea came about huh!


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

navigator black said:


> They did have a weird, almost mystical belief in the powers of "old water". You were NEVER supposed to change water, as it would lose its goodness.
> The scrapping of that idea was one of the best advances in this hobby.


Maybe that's cus they didn't have dechlor so it killed the fish wen they did water changes!

Interesting what you said about slate bottom tanks and a candle, I had a slate an old bottomed tank as a kid but never knew why it had the slate.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Now were dating ourselves folks, but I remember those old slate bottom chrome frame tanks, actually I still watch for them at yard sales and such wouldnt mind a few for old time sake. My cousin was the one that got me interested in fish when I was a wee lad, in the early 70's he had tanks set up in the basement, I only remember seiing like 10 gal size tanks but he had 4-5 going with a crude little air pump that my uncle built that ran air for all the tanks.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I bet those slate bottomed tanks would be perfect for fry grow outs and spawning.I noticed some of my boys would freak out seeing out the bottom.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

hanky said:


> Now were dating ourselves folks, but I remember those old slate bottom chrome frame tanks, actually I still watch for them at yard sales and such wouldnt mind a few for old time sake. My cousin was the one that got me interested in fish when I was a wee lad, in the early 70's he had tanks set up in the basement, I only remember seiing like 10 gal size tanks but he had 4-5 going with a crude little air pump that my uncle built that ran air for all the tanks.


lol, actually I had the slate bottomed tank in the 80's, it was just really old then, I think my dad found it at the rubbish. I kind of like the way it looked, wish I still had it. Not quite ADA but I actually think it was nicer than your typical black plastic rims.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

They actually had dechlorinator early, from around the time we had chlorine. They used sodium thiosulfate, from the photographic development darkrooms. The magic water myth still had legs in the mid-seventies, although it began to die out around then.
I'm 53, but I was an inquisitive kid, so I used to spend a lot of time talking to the old guys. When I was 14, the 80 year old who ran my local pet-shop was an immigrant from Liverpool who had been a bell-diver in the port of Shanghai
in his youth. He was one of the sailors who used to bring fish back from the 'far east' to the European hobby.
Our local English-language aquarium club (we also have a French-language one) was founded in 1933, and I did an article years ago that let me go through the archives. That, and the fact the founder of the club stayed in til his death ten or so years ago gave me a nice view of the early days of the hobby here. 

By the way - I never use dechlorinator unless I change more than 25% (we have old school chlorine, not chloramine here), and I have no losses with my weekly water changes. If we had chloramine, it would be different, but I doubt many old time hobbyists lost fish to chlorine.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The biggest problem I had when I found a slate bottomed metal frame tank was that silicone kept peeling off the stone bottom.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Some really interesting info, navigator black. Didn't know they used dechlorinator so early. I agree that you can let water stand instead of using dechlorinator as long as it's just chlorine you're dealing with.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

This book (Henry D. Butler’s The Home Aquarium) published in 1858, is for the "new pleasure" of keeping an aquarium at home, it even talks about plants:
The family aquarium, or, Aqua vivarium :a "new pleasure" for the domestic circle


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Nice digging - I just read the section on freshwater fishes - I've actually kept a few of those. The man liked his sticklebacks - neat fish.
The scientific names have changed as we've learned more, but you can still recognize what they're talking about - all cold water, high oxygen fish hardly anyone keeps anymore in this era of warm houses. 
I still catch my own food (Daphnia, mosquito larvae, bloodworms and shrimp) for a few weeks in the Spring - a trick I learned from the old-timers. You should see what happens to the colours on our fish when they get wild-type food. They go crazy.
Wayne Leibel did a piece in TFH a few years ago in which he talked about old aquarium lit. If I remember correctly, there were references in the 1700s. I have some Canadian aquarium magazines from the pre ww 2 era here, but that's as old as my library goes.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Public aquariums.
1872 Octopus
The tragic fate of the Brighton octopus | Thoughtomics, Scientific American Blog Network

Crystal Palace Aquarium, old prints and more recent photos of the ruins.
Sydenham Town • View topic - Crystal Palace Aquarium


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