# New tank, will not cycle



## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

August 18, 2011- 20 gallon tank filled with 20 pounds of gravel, and four decorations. 19.8 gallons of water added to tank. Water clarifier and conditioner added for 20 gallons of water.

August 20, 2011-chemical check. Ammonia Nitrite and Nitrate-0. P.H-7.6. Temp 78.

August 22, 2011-Three fish added. All compatible with each other. Molly, swordtail, and something else I can't remember.

August 24, 2011-Ammonia .25ppm. Nitrite and Nitrate 0-where they will stay until current date.

August 24-September 12-fish die off at regular rate spread out over this time period. All that remains to date is one Molly fish.

August 24-S12-Ammonia reducer added weekly, does nothing.

September 15-ammonia spikes to around 1ppm and rising. 

-Water changes performed weekly, or twice a week if necessary to keep this stupid ammonia down.

-Molly fish appeared to be calm last couple days, but today I did a water change and fish is freaking out again. 

-I started feeding daily but reduced to once (light) every three days when one fish was left.

Ammonia is still high, Nitrite and nitrate are still at 0.

I'm honestly ready to take all this **** back to the store and say ^%$# it. 


:[


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## IslandRzrbk (Aug 14, 2011)

My thought is maybe the tank just didn't cycle long enough at the very beginning. Although some spikes are normal, because there was already a fish in it, the fish were suffering the consequences of the spikes. 

What type of filter do you have? How much of the water do you change when you do water changes?

Although it might be worry some that the fish is freaking out especially when you do water changes, but this may be due to with the act of water changing and the fact that a social fish like a molly is currently by itself. But at this point although it might be lonely, it's not safe for any more fish to be added. 

My course of action would be to continue to do weekly water changes and do chemical checks twice a week. Some tanks can take up to 6 weeks to successfully cycle, especially the bigger ones, so I would just be patient with the tank for now. 

Hope this helps some.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I agree with what island said, and also using the ammonia chemicals actually stall your cycling progress instead of help it, if not slow it to a crawl. I would stop adding the chemicals and stick to the water conditioner, I would do daily water changes. If you know someone with an established fish tank, ask if you can borrow some substrate because it already has the good bacteria in it. Be careful though and make sure the tank is healthy because you don't want to introduce any diseases to your tank. I'm sorry for your losses and never give up, though it might be hard to start up, it's worth it in the end


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ammonia starts and drives the nitrogen cycle. So if you add stuff to detoxify it, it just screws it all up. You need the ammonia or the second stage will not start or take a really long time. A cycle using fish can take 6-8 weeks and sometimes longer.

I would stop using the chemicals, do nothing to your filter, not vacuum your gravel or anything else other than needed water changes. Water changes you will not need to do until either ammonia or nitrite reach 1ppm or higher. Change at least 25% for values at 2ppm or below and if it reaches 3ppm or higher, do a 50% water change. Do not do more than 1 water change per day unless ammonia or nitrite gets to 5ppm or higher or as extreme necessity.

Are you using a liquid test kit? I hope so. Test strips are crap and don't help very much during a cycle. Post your results here and we can help you decide what to do.

Most of all, you need patience. It will cycle.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

What you are going through sounds pretty normal to me. The thing to remember is that no two cycles are the same, you just have to wait it out and you will get there. For the future I highly recommend a fishless cycle as it takes the stress out of it for us and the fish http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html.

When cycling with fish deaths are not uncommon. To minimize the risk follow jrman's instructions about water changes. The good thing is that once the cycle is done that's the hard part over. 

How big a water change are you doing? Are you using PH chemicals? How long did it take for your fish to calm down again after the water change? Fish are usually lively after a water change and may even hide or dash about for a bit until they are used to you messing with the tank. Another reason why fish will 'freak out' is when people use PH chemicals that cause PH swings, that are dangerous to the fish, so I'm just checking.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

Most of the water changes have been 4-6 gallons (tank is 20).

The Molly fish seems to settle down after a few hours, I usually do the changes in the evenings and then the lights go off and she calms down. 

I treat the water before the changes with both conditioner and pH reducer (the tap water is EXTREMELY high in pH around here.

The morning after the most recent change I did add a few drops of PH reducer as the PH was starting to rise again (8.0ish). I did NOT add 40 drops (as suggested by the bottle). I believe I used 10, just to keep it from rising anymore was my thought process. 

Liquid test being used.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

What is the PH out of your tap? It should be fine for your fish the way it is. If you do need to lower it find a more stable method than chemicals. They tend to cause PH swings which are very distressing, even deadly for fish. A stable PH is more important than any particular number. My PH is over 8 and is fine for most fish.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I agree with Jrman and Snail. I was going to say stop adding the ammonia blocker, as that is just going to stall the cycle.

If at all possible, you could move the molly to another tank (or trade him in for credit) and do a fishless cycle. They tend to go faster (not guaranteed, but usually.)


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## srshaggy (Feb 10, 2011)

I would stop with the chemicals all together. Just do your water changes and leave everything else alone. I have a fairly high Ph out of the tap too and my fish have adapted to it just fine.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

Alright, I'll stop adding chemicals and just do water changes.

As of yesterday morning the chemicals were PH-7.6, Ammonia 1, Nitri/ate 0.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

The only chemical you still want to be using is a dechlorinator when you do water changes.

If you still want to lower PH you could use something more stable like peat in the filter. Your molly will be happy with a high PH. Some fish like tetras prefer a lower PH but except for a few very sensitive fish (that you are not likely to be keeping anyway) as long as PH is stable and the fish are acclimated properly they should adapt fine. Breeding is another matter, for people who breed fish a specific PH can be very important.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

Ammonia was 1.5.

40 % Water change. 

Molly is freaking out. Water temp went up by 4 degrees. PH probably increased because I didn't put PH decreaser in. Water conditioner was added to water prior to change. 

Will test water in an hour after the water has a chance to circulate.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Why did water temp go up? The goal after a water change is to have as little as possible temp change, unless it got heated up somehow and you needed to get it down for some reason. Mollies may not like it much. Keep going, you'll be fine. Keep the "no chemicals" thing going.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Why did water temp go up? The goal after a water change is to have as little as possible temp change, unless it got heated up somehow and you needed to get it down for some reason. Mollies may not like it much. Keep going, you'll be fine. Keep the "no chemicals" thing going.


Tap water was apparently a bit warmer than the tank.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Lol, that's a big change... do you use your hand to try and gauge the temp' when you're re-filling the bucket?


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

holly12 said:


> Lol, that's a big change... do you use your hand to try and gauge the temp' when you're re-filling the bucket?


Yeah, but I was filling one 5 gallon bucket up in the shower and one in the sink, so I couldn't sit and adjust both! Ha...

And it bounced back to ~2 degrees from where it started.

Molly calmed down,

Temp is back to 79

And Nitrite/Ate-0

Ammonia-1


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Such a sudden change in temp isn't good, try to get the water about the same temp, if you cant then add the water more slowly, like add half, wait half an hr and add the rest.

As for the PH, it will settle then should stay stable, it's better than it going up and down all the time.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

ammonia locks lock up ammonia but that ammonia still test positive with most test kits.

It is therefore possible all your ammonia is the safe(r) locked ammonia and additional ammonia reducer will not produce effects.

Plus the reducer also locks up oxygen so fish can suffocate.

Try testing with a test kit (multi ammonia kit) that measures both locked and total ammonia. (dangerous free ammonia is the difference)

Additionally add fast growing plant like anacharis to consume the ammonia directly while reducing carbon dioxide and returning oxygen.

my .02


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm thinking if the Ammonia is at 1ppm and you did a 40% WC and it's still at 1ppm... something's a bit odd.... are you following the test procedure properly?

If it's really still at 1ppm you need another WC.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

50 % Water change.

ammonia now .75


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

atcdude067 said:


> 50 % Water change.
> 
> ammonia now .75


that level of ammonia with fast growing plants like anacharis should drop to unmeasureable or at least under .25ppm in less then a day.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Agreed. Even easier stuff like marimo balls or java moss will take care of that much.


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

Would adding live plants really be the best thing for a tank that hasn't cycled?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

atcdude067 said:


> Would adding live plants really be the best thing for a tank that hasn't cycled?


Yes!!!!!!!

the plants will help the tank cycle and prevent ammonia spikes.

Which is why I always start tanks with plants


still just my .02


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

What kind should I get?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

atcdude067 said:


> What kind should I get?


As I understand your tank (with my feeble mind that gets confused with all these threads *r2) you have a 20g with a molly.

Anacharis would be a good choice for plants and I would use 6-10 bunches or so.

But you may want to "reset" the system before getting more fish.

What I do is use 1" peat moss, 1" play sand,1" pc select (or aquarium gravel) for a substrate. The peat moss is the 1'x1'x3' "cubes" of canadian sphagum (spelling lol) from home supply type stores and costs $11 or so. play sand same source 50 pound bag $3 or so. Pc select is a pro choice brand baseball infield conditioner so can be hard to find. If you have a source a 50# bag is like $8 or so.

I put in the peat moss and add water to the top of the moss. Then level the peat and clean the tank sides. The repeat the process with the sand and pc select layers.

I then plant the plants. For a 20 I would use the anacharis plus 10 vals, 5 or so small potted plants and an amazon sword.

I then fill the tank with water poured over a saucer.

After a week I add a single platty (which I find does much better than mollys) and don't add food for a week. I then add 2 female plattys and start feeding 1 flake per day.

no filter, no airstone, no water changes, no chemicals. Just top off with untreated tap water from a cold water faucet that has been ran for about a munute.

I control cloudiness and algae by killing the lights and stopping feeding until the tank clears (usually in a few days). Then resume with less lighting and feeding so the tank stays clear.

So you can take that "beaslbob build" method and modify it to your needs.

I think you will find just adding anacharis (or moss balls or jave ferns) will result in low ammonia very quickly.

let us know how it goes. Sorry to the long post.

Still just my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You may be somewhat limited with your lighting. The recommended ones should work, although not sure how anacharis does with minimal light. I am assuming your LED lighting may not be adequate for most plants. Do you know any of the specs of it?


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## atcdude067 (Sep 22, 2011)

the ammonia is back up to around .75-1. I will do a water change tomorrow (50%) before I leave for the weekend. Hopefully the Molly lives through the weekend.

BTW-are black specs on tail/not a perfectly white ring around the eyes normal for Mollies?


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