# Fish which you don't have to feed. Please advice.



## jaf_ua

Hi,

I've had planted aquarium 64 liters for 3 month, with cherry shrimps, 2 SAE and 2 otocincles. I don't feed them, and they are going well. I like it this way - I mean not feeding the animals and having no headache about food quality, where to buy it, etc - but I want some more fish, which are also algae eaters and don't need any additional food. Please advise which kind of fish are OK for it?
Also if you know some fish which can eat algae a lot, but maybe need rarely some additional non vegetarian feeding, please tell.

Thanks.


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## chipmunk1210

I don't know of any fish that would be perfectly fine with NO feeding at all. Even the algae eaters really need some other nutritional support. For example--your shrimp would benefit from shrimp food, algae wafers, or raw vegetables. The otos and SAE could really use an algae wafer or some raw vegetables. In a tank that is the size of yours(roughly 14-15 US gallons), all the critters are going to definately need some supplementation. Especially since all of them feed off of the same thing. I also would not recommend you getting any more fish for that tank. Your SAEs will outgrow it very quickly and really need a bigger tank as it is.


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## jshiloh13

I agree with chipmunk. It might not look like your not hurting your fish but without proper nutrients they will most likely have a short life.


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## jaf_ua

chipmunk1210 said:


> I don't know of any fish that would be perfectly fine with NO feeding at all. Even the algae eaters really need some other nutritional support. For example--your shrimp would benefit from shrimp food, algae wafers, or raw vegetables. The otos and SAE could really use an algae wafer or some raw vegetables. In a tank that is the size of yours(roughly 14-15 US gallons), all the critters are going to definately need some supplementation. Especially since all of them feed off of the same thing. I also would not recommend you getting any more fish for that tank. Your SAEs will outgrow it very quickly and really need a bigger tank as it is.


Could you please provide the proof link that SAE and otos need additional food if they have a lot of algae? I can't get the point why I should use algae wafers if they always have some fresh.

About shrimps it seems that they are feeling especially good, because they are constantly breeding, I have a lot of small shrimps and going soon to give half of them somebody. I can't imagine what benefit would I receive if I started to feed them. More algae? More shrimps?


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## majerah1

Algae wafers are a mix of algae and plant matter. This is why they need it as a supplementation. Otherwise, though they are ok, they are not getting the best they can. Its similiar to tossing a dog a rawhide bone instead of kibble or meat. Also keep in mind it can take a fish awhile to starve to death. You can look online at many articles, and caresheets, and all of the reliable ones will mention the proper diet for the fish.


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## jaf_ua

majerah1 said:


> Algae wafers are a mix of algae and plant matter. This is why they need it as a supplementation. Otherwise, though they are ok, they are not getting the best they can. Its similiar to tossing a dog a rawhide bone instead of kibble or meat. Also keep in mind it can take a fish awhile to starve to death. You can look online at many articles, and caresheets, and all of the reliable ones will mention the proper diet for the fish.


OK I've just tried to find, found this about otos:

Otocinclus Catfish
"Algae is of course the primary food. But if you don't have enough of it in your tank, you can also feed them algae wafers..."

OK, I have enough.

FAQs on Otocinclus Foods/Feeding/Nutrition
"Otocinclus feed primarily on green algae, and secondarily take some diatoms. "

Excellent.

Otocinclus Affinis (Dwarf Otocinclus) - FishandTips.com
"However to keep Otocinclus it is imperative to have an heavily planted tank with lots of algae for them to feed on. If algaes are gone after a few days, Otocinclus will starve and die."

My two small otos can't get rid of all algae, so I thought about additional one temporarily.

About SAE I can search as well but I remember that it is definitely not recommended to feed them if you use them for getting rid of algae in planted aquarium, because they will stop eating algae. Isn't it not true?

About shrimps - I'm not going to feed them in my tank in any case, because point of this is impossible to cover with any logic.


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## chipmunk1210

Only an aquarium that is having some major balance issues is going to be able to fully substain that many algae eaters without supplemantation or some of the fish not getting enough. Think about it, unless your tank is COVERED in algae(the soft kind-because the hard to scrub off the glass kind is pretty much too hard for them to really get any benefit from) then 4 algae eating fish and numerous algae eating shrimp are always competing for something to eat. The SAEs will get to 6in so they will monopolize the food soon if not already. Otos are shy creatures that will not fight over food so they will probably be a first casulty of the fight for food. The shrimp will pick any remenants that they can find and may seem ok for a long time before you see any effects from them since you won't always see the first deaths.(shrimp will eat dead critters and they can make short work of another shrimp before you will see it missing). Even with all this--my question is this: Why do you want fish if you do not want to care for them? Feeding is a crucial part of caring of any creature.


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## susankat

In my opinion you don't need anymore fish for that tank. Once the SAE's grow the tank will be overcrowded in the first place.

Not wanting to feed the animals is really out of context for this forum as its based on the care and well being of fish and inverts to help them thrive. If you have that much algae to keep them fed, it must not be a very nice tank to look at.

All I can say is good luck down the road, I don't see a happy ending with this one.


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## Kehy

My cherry shrimp alone eat 3 different types of food throughout the week, in addition to the algae I grow in my tank. No single food has all of the nutrition they need, and a varied diet is healthy for anything that eats (imagine just having water and crackers every day of your life). I feed algae wafers, zucchini, and barley pellets, and you'd be amazed at how much just shrimp alone will eat. 

For your fish, at the very least I would recommend algae wafers and zucchini (or courgette). What's so difficult about dropping in a wafer or two a day? Zucchini is just about as easy, chop into cubes, freeze, and when you want to feed with zucchini just drop a piece in your tank, you don't even have to unfreeze it.


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## Gizmo

The third source you list says this:
"...we do not recommended to get Otocinclus if you don't have enough algae production in your tank...a starting ratio can be 3 Otos for an heavily planted 30 gallons..."

64 liters is about 17 gallons.

Throw in two SAE's and shrimp, and your tank is devoid of algae in less than a day. Unless you supplement their feeding, you're intentionally starving your fish to death.

How long have you been keeping them in this state, and why don't you have a full school of otos? You realize they are schooling fish, right?


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## Puppylove

I don't get why you don't want to feed them. Can you please explain why? It's not difficult or expensive to buy algea wafers...


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## gar1948

Why don't you just get plastic fish and float them in the tank. If you don't want to feed them, that's half the fun of keeping an aquarium. I agree that not all the algae in your tank is edible and they do need other nutrients which are easy to give them in the form of wafers.


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## jshiloh13

Were not all trying to sound mean, but it's kind of upsetting to some people when they feel like someone is mistreating animals. I think you might have just been misinformed, I hope you take this information and use it. There is a lot of good info on this sight from very knowledgeable people (me not being one of them). they haven't steered me wrong in anything yet. good luck


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## Sherry

Seriously! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had someone on another forum that was giving away free algea wafers, she said just ask. I got a big package at my lfs for around $9. It will last me the winter. 
Just dont understand people sometimes.......


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## goldie

jaf-ua, would you enjoy being served your 'favourite' meal every day for the rest of your life. Just wondered!


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## jaf_ua

chipmunk1210 said:


> Only an aquarium that is having some major balance issues is going to be able to fully substain that many algae eaters without supplemantation or some of the fish not getting enough. Think about it, unless your tank is COVERED in algae


OK, my tank is not covered in algae, it is just always has some thread, hair algae, and some other, and the fishes eat this algae constantly. Think about it, I believe there is some difference.



Kehy said:


> My cherry shrimp alone eat 3 different types of food throughout the week, in addition to the algae I grow in my tank.


I see. Probably you just should care about them and create good environment? Some planted good looking tank for example. Bacteria from driftwood, some algae, dendrite will be more then enough, and give extra shrimps to friends monthly, because they will breed as crazy (from unhappiness maybe without zucchini). Or their population will just be self controlled, you will have as much as your environment can afford.



Gizmo said:


> The third source you list says this:
> "...we do not recommended to get Otocinclus if you don't have enough algae production in your tank...a starting ratio can be 3 Otos for an heavily planted 30 gallons..."


OK, key words are "can be" and "have enough algae". In my case it is 1 for 30 liters, very similar, isn't it? No comments about other sources?



Gizmo said:


> Throw in two SAE's and shrimp, and your tank is devoid of algae in less than a day. Unless you supplement their feeding, you're intentionally starving your fish to death.


3 month passed. I still have some algae. You theory is wrong or my case is a miracle?



Gizmo said:


> How long have you been keeping them in this state, and why don't you have a full school of otos? You realize they are schooling fish, right?


Got it, I'm thinking about putting one more.



susankat said:


> In my opinion you don't need anymore fish for that tank. Once the SAE's grow the tank will be overcrowded in the first place.


I'll give it to some friend then. I think there is some dissonance in your considerations, if you said "you SAE wil die tomorrow because you don't care about them" it would be OK, but you predict their growing, hmm, strange.



susankat said:


> Not wanting to feed the animals is really out of context for this forum as its based on the care and well being of fish and inverts to help them thrive. If you have that much algae to keep them fed, it must not be a very nice tank to look at.


Please take care about niceness of your tanks, check them once more.

People who think that SAE and otos IN ANY CASE need additional supplements are wrong, as far as it seems you don't have any experience with the subject then just check any adequate source.

"If you can see some remains of food in your tank don't put more", isn't it right? So probably this rule would be helpful for somebody - If you can see algae which is FOOD for your SAE or oto, don't feed your SAE or oto. If you don't see the algae for some time (I've seen ONE WEEK recommendation), then feed the fish.

Comparing shrimps and fishes with dogs and human beings is just incredible.
It seems you never break "rules" and never have doubts that these are actually not the rules but some irrational statements which are far from true and come from incredible considerations. 

About care - good care is creating good environment for your animals, not feeding them blindly, because of some "rule".

From my experience - I've hardly ever seen shrimps eating algae, they are almost always eating something(bacteria?) from mosses and driftwood. SAEs and otos eat different kind of algae, so they are not concurred in my tank. 

I think in case of some doubts it would be enough to tell something like "just make sure that your creatures are well fed". And I would say, not for hurting your strong beliefs, just to remind - my animals are well fed, OK?, it is a fact. 

Does somebody have an answer on the topic question?


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## coralbandit

seems like you know it all,why ask forum members?It doesn't seem many agree with your approach.


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## Redbug

I don't know why you are asking the forum for advice, you seem to have it all worked out.
Whatever anyone says you have an answer. Anybody can pluck sentences from here there and everywhere to supposedly prove whatever point they want to make.
I feel sad for you as you don't seem to be getting the same pleasure from your fish as most here on the forum. If you observe your fish you might notice that they nibble at all sort of things. A balanced diet is a varied diet. Good luck I think you need it.


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## jaf_ua

coralbandit said:


> seems like you know it all,why ask forum members?It doesn't seem many agree with your approach.


Could you kindly check the question of the topic and don't flood here?


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## Redbug

Jaf-ua, I don't know any fish that don't need feeding other than algae.


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## jshiloh13

What they are trying to say is that you are most likely not gonna find anyone here that agree with just letting fish in an aquarium eat algae only, there's just not enough there to sustain them for long, especially in a 17 gallon tank. that so the short answer to your original question I none.


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## coralbandit

sorry to flood your thread with inappropriate comments.I thought I'd help by searching your topic on internet: only result that even came close;http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fish-you-dont-have-feed-please-40664.html.I really couldn't find ANYTHING ELSE!It seems the creator of that knows something no-one else knows or knows nothing!Possibly you"ll be biased!


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## susankat

jaf_ua said:


> OK, my tank is not covered in algae, it is just always has some thread, hair algae, and some other, and the fishes eat this algae constantly. Think about it, I believe there is some difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I see. Probably you just should care about them and create good environment? Some planted good looking tank for example. Bacteria from driftwood, some algae, dendrite will be more then enough, and give extra shrimps to friends monthly, because they will breed as crazy (from unhappiness maybe without zucchini). Or their population will just be self controlled, you will have as much as your environment can afford.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, key words are "can be" and "have enough algae". In my case it is 1 for 30 liters, very similar, isn't it? No comments about other sources?
> 
> 
> 
> 3 month passed. I still have some algae. You theory is wrong or my case is a miracle?
> 
> 
> 
> Got it, I'm thinking about putting one more.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give it to some friend then. I think there is some dissonance in your considerations, if you said "you SAE wil die tomorrow because you don't care about them" it would be OK, but you predict their growing, hmm, strange.
> 
> 
> Please take care about niceness of your tanks, check them once more.
> 
> People who think that SAE and otos IN ANY CASE need additional supplements are wrong, as far as it seems you don't have any experience with the subject then just check any adequate source.
> 
> "If you can see some remains of food in your tank don't put more", isn't it right? So probably this rule would be helpful for somebody - If you can see algae which is FOOD for your SAE or oto, don't feed your SAE or oto. If you don't see the algae for some time (I've seen ONE WEEK recommendation), then feed the fish.
> 
> Comparing shrimps and fishes with dogs and human beings is just incredible.
> It seems you never break "rules" and never have doubts that these are actually not the rules but some irrational statements which are far from true and come from incredible considerations.
> 
> About care - good care is creating good environment for your animals, not feeding them blindly, because of some "rule".
> 
> From my experience - I've hardly ever seen shrimps eating algae, they are almost always eating something(bacteria?) from mosses and driftwood. SAEs and otos eat different kind of algae, so they are not concurred in my tank.
> 
> I think in case of some doubts it would be enough to tell something like "just make sure that your creatures are well fed". And I would say, not for hurting your strong beliefs, just to remind - my animals are well fed, OK?, it is a fact.
> 
> Does somebody have an answer on the topic question?


Boy you sure have put a lot of stuff in quoting me on this post. I have been keeping tanks, fish and inverts for more than 30 years. I have all types of tanks from planted to non planted. 

All the fish and inverts you have chosen are algae eaters. No fish or inverts are strickly on a diet of algae. Lot of them might seem to be eating it but in reality are also eating tiny crustaceans and such that grow in plants and algae. Each algea eater has a specific algae that they will eat. IE otos, they only eat soft algae like diatoms. SAE's prefer a little harder algae, once they reach a bigger size they will also go after your shrimp, shrimp on the other hand are actually omnivores which need both algae and protien.

I have 7 tanks of shrimp and 9 tanks of plecos and I still have to feed suppliment to them as they don't eat all the algae. "Oh the saying that plecos are algae eaters" 4 types of my plecos don't even touch algae.

I reallly think you would be best to do a lot more research on your fish and inverts than just a couple of places then combine what info you get.

As for looking for another fish that will survive on just algae it will be hard to find. Most live bearers will eat algae as will Florida Flag fish but its not a sustainable diet for them. Non will thrive on algae alone. There is a difference between surviving and thriving. Another note, breeding could be caused by many factors, not just being fed and happy but also for preservation of the species. And just because they are eating the algae doesn't mean they are getting all the nutrition they need.

If you have all the answers and know it all, there is no reason for you to come here and post questions and not expect the posts that you have gotten. People are going to post their own opinions on any matter when it comes to keeping fish. To me your tank is not a thriving situation only a suviving one. But that is just my opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion.

Good luck on your tank, I hope it goes well to your own expectations.


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## chipmunk1210

Unfortunately you are looking at losing fish/shrimp. BUT you seem to have ALL the answers where it counts about your fish so I rest my case and refuse to post anymore after this. I have a 20 gallon long tank that I have 5 otocinclus and 3 nerite snails--all 8 of these eat algae-mixtures of the same algae. My tank is clean and balanced with tons of plants. I have very little visable algae. That is how a well balanced tank should be. I also have a shrimp tank that is a nice happy well fed community. I feed my algae eaters-algae wafers, fresh vegetables, veggy flakes, ect. Yes they take a little while to "find" the food but once they do--they eat it up. My otos will scarf down an algae wafer like no tomorrow as will my shrimp. My otos have nice round bellys at all times. Shrimp will breed as long as the breeding pair is getting food so your argument about the shrimp has no good foundation. As for your original posting question--NO ONE in their right mind is going to offer you any live suggestions to add to an already overstocked tank that is heading toward failure. So there is an answer to your original question--There is not any other fish you can add to this tank without feeding it.


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## majerah1

* Watching to make sure things stay civil* 


I think if you do not want advice, you should better word your title. In my opinion it is cruel to not feed a fish in a home environment. In the wild they can move about and find what they need. In your home however they rely on you for the proper feeding water changing and overall care.


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## Gizmo

To answer your original question about what creatures you can have in your tank without feeding them, I suppose I would be forced to say that crabs might be a good choice. Not only will they eat the algae you are growing, but they will eat plants, creatures, and garbage. True scavengers. And the best part is, once their food sources are exhausted, they will try and escape and you won't have to worry about them anymore.

...however, they need to get out of the water periodically. Surely you wouldn't deprive them of this?

I suppose I should ask you - what enjoyment are you getting out of growing algae and not caring for your animals? Are you at least changing the water occasionally?

Cruelty towards animals includes neglect, you must realize...


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## navigator black

I think Jaf-ua is misunderstanding scale. Give me 800 litres plus with strong lighting and lots of plants and I can run it with half a dozen unfed Otos thriving for a decent lifetime. I would have to keep other fish out unless I had a larger tank.

So, yes, it can be done.

Going to a smaller tank to do this is simply repeating the mistakes of hundreds of other aquarists over the decades. The self-sustaining small tank is the Alchemist's stone of the aquarium world. It's based on faulty logic - those who dream of this figure no giant creature sprinkles food into a lake, therefore there is no need to feed a "balanced" aquarium. It's a thought process based on an underestimation of scale, and an unwillingness to spend a few hours reading up on the past of our hobby. 

An aquarium is a closed system and a relatively impoverished one compared to a stream or lake. No rain, minimal or no insect life, poor bacterial life - that's what we offer. Even our algae is often poor in micro-organisms, bacteria and crustaceans to add to its nutritional value.

If you wish to add more fish than maybe one per 25 gallons to such a set-up, then you'd best start looking for a predator. That little evironment has to have an extremely sparse population, and if you add, you'd better be ready to subtract.

I sense Jaf-ua wants confirmation of his or her opinion, so what I'm writing probably won't be considered. I'll wager you aren't finding info on "not needing to be fed" fish because this great discovery is yet another repetition of past practices, and since it is not especially logical as a system, no one is writing about it. You would need a source who has run such a tank for 3-5 years to see if it stands up - that's about how long it takes to see if a system works. The last guy to raise this old chesnut to me was about ten years ago, and his tank was shut about three months later. 

Maybe you'll be the successful alchemist!


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## jaf_ua

Just incredible. 

When I created the topic I was sure that there is one opinion about supplemental food for SAE and otos - feed if you don't have enough algae. After I realized that there could be other opinion - Always feed SAE and otos. Of course I've tried to understand what is the ground of such opinion, the points are(with equal uselessness):

1 feeding is care
2 feeding is cheap
3 feeding is not complex
4 not feeding is cruelty
5 feeding is fun
etc

It is not based on any experience but some beliefs. I see that anyone here provide additional food and feel that it proves something, but it doesn't. There definitely could be other opinion.

"Most tanks do not have enough algae to sustain a group of otocinclus so it is up to the fish keeper to provide supplemental food on a consistent basis." www.otocinclus.com - Home of the Dwarf Suckermouth Catfishes

"IF THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ALGAE TO BE EATEN, YOU WILL NEED TO PROVIDE SUPPLEMENTAL FOODS." - What Kind Of Algae Eater Should I Get? - Tropical Fish Forums Second part of this post is about algae eaters which need supplemental food. And this is actually an answer for the second part of my question.


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## dalfed

jaf_ua said:


> Just incredible.
> 
> When I created the topic I was sure that there is one opinion about supplemental food for SAE and otos - feed if you don't have enough algae. After I realized that there could be other opinion - Always feed SAE and otos. Of course I've tried to understand what is the ground of such opinion, the points are(with equal uselessness):
> 
> 1 feeding is care
> 2 feeding is cheap
> 3 feeding is not complex
> 4 not feeding is cruelty
> 5 feeding is fun
> etc
> 
> It is not based on any experience but some beliefs. I see that anyone here provide additional food and feel that it proves something, but it doesn't. There definitely could be other opinion.
> 
> "Most tanks do not have enough algae to sustain a group of otocinclus so it is up to the fish keeper to provide supplemental food on a consistent basis." www.otocinclus.com - Home of the Dwarf Suckermouth Catfishes
> 
> "IF THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ALGAE TO BE EATEN, YOU WILL NEED TO PROVIDE SUPPLEMENTAL FOODS." - What Kind Of Algae Eater Should I Get? - Tropical Fish Forums Second part of this post is about algae eaters which need supplemental food. And this is actually an answer for the second part of my question.


"It seems that algae is the preferred food of otocinclus catfish. If they ignore all the other types of food you offer in the tank, there is a chance they may be getting enough from the algae itself. It's a good idea to first give them a while to notice what you've left in the tank as food, don't remove it right away. But as always, let their tummies be the guide."
Quoting your own source, www.otocinclus.com - Home of the Dwarf Suckermouth Catfishes - Home of the Dwarf Suckermouth Catfishes.
It always amazes me when people can read an article, quote parts and not follow the rest, So I ask you have you tried to feed other stuff to your otos and was it ignored?


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## susankat

In my opinion this thread is like running into a brick wall. There is no changing the op's mind and its useless to try and convince him other wise. You can probably posts a thousand links proving him otherwise and still wouldn't listen. Just as his one or 2 links will never convince any of us that know better that he is right.

So if everyone don't mind just leave the thread alone.


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## jaf_ua

navigator black said:


> You would need a source who has run such a tank for 3-5 years to see if it stands up - that's about how long it takes to see if a system works. The last guy to raise this old chesnut to me was about ten years ago, and his tank was shut about three months later.


I noticed this post after, and this is a really good point, you know somebody who tried something interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what exactly he tried. Probably he tried to make a model of nature in his tank, but I'm afraid it is developing my case to some nonsense. Probably there is some mistake - my tank is not self-sustaining. The discussion was just about diet of SAE and otos, and probably other fish; and actually I tried to start another discussion.

I really wander if he used some ferts and CO2? What was the volume? Did he use driftwood? The most interesting - what kind of fish he used?


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## navigator black

I don't usually ignore Susankat's suggestions, but I can't resist this one. I don't think what I will write will convince anyone, but I hope both Susan and jaf-ua will bear with me for what I wish to say. I always feel we aren't just writing for the people in the discussion, but also for many casual readers who will find these threads.

We always have to define our terms. What, for example, is algae? You could spend a lifetime studying it. Which algaes do Otos eat? Which species of Otoconclus are we talking about? What are the algaes in their natural range. Are they from floating meadows, or species from fast water grasses? Do all Otos eat the same algaes? Hmmm.

Otocinclus species are no more the same than algae species are. You may get a certain result with luck - I find an ever changing range of algae species in my tanks - depending on the age of the tank, filtration, cleanliness, lighting, different types of algae predominate. What happens in an unfed tank if the algae fauna shifts and a new type takes over? 

A discussion like this breaks down on its details. I have had killifish hatch, unknown to me, in a heavily planted 20 long that I was not using or feeding. I found them as young adults, after they had lived off the land for a few months. 
I don't know how many there were to start. A single pair survived. And while they came from a prolific species, they were never able to reproduce. Therefore, to me, that's a nutritional fail. But as a breeder, my definition of failure may be different from that of a keeper.

I don't think anyone can answer jaf-ua's question because of all the variables in the answer. I would argue that supplemental nutrition is necessary because we don't really understand what we are dealing with as primary nutrition, and our lack of knowledge could lead to the early deaths of fish we take responsibility for caring for. In effect, feeding the Otos or other algae eaters is a sensible Plan B in the case of our random attempts to provide them the foods they need failing.

So I throw that out to think about, and not fight about. And I will now take Susankat's advice and go look at my algae. Cyanobacter has vanished after being a problem for a couple of years, and the black brush is also gone (I don't now why). I have an interesting hair algae now in decline, and am curious about what will come next.


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