# New 37g Tank...Help needed



## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

First, off I would love to thank you for all the useful information. I have been reading your forums non-stop for about 2 weeks. I wish I would of found the site prior to setting up my tank as I would of had less problems.

Ok, a bit of background. I started the tank about 2 months ago. I added some plants about 4 weeks ago and then proceeded to stock it with 6 guppies and 1 sucker fish about 2 weeks ago. When I started the tank I did a check with the cheap strips and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.

I lost two guppies the first night. Which cause me to panic. I scourge the web looking for help and everyone was saying that daily water changes is all I could do. No amount of water changes could get my nitrites down. I did a daily 50% water change every day for 8 days. I ended up losing all of the fish. So my tank is empty minus the plants and a few mystery snails.

After reading your forums I got rid of the stupid test trips and brought a API Master Test Kit. I just did my baseline check and I got the following readings:

0 Ammonia, 5.0ppm Nitrite, 40ppm nitrate

Again my Nitrite levels are very high. I read the sticky on the fishless cycle and definitely want to do this. I already have the ammonia to begin. My question is can I still do the fishless cycle using ammonia with my Nitrites so high or do I have to empty the tank and just re-fill it with water?

Thanks for any help!

-Jace


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi Jace,

Nitrate level of 40ppm is high and merits a water change, but NITRITE at any concentration is far more toxic to fish, even more toxic than ammonia. That's almost certainly what killed your fish. What kind of filtration do you have on this 37 gallon?

High waste levels are probably a result of overfeeding/overstocking/ lack of maintenance. As a general guide, a fish's stomach is about the size of its eye. Many will literally eat until they explode. So DO NOT OVERFEED.

You also need to vacuum the substrate to remove waste / uneaten food as part of your regular water change routine.

Also from what I read it sounds like you were cycling the tank 'fish in'. if you do go that route you should add beneficial bacteria with the tank to speed up the cycling process (e.g., SafeStart). You need to read up on 'cycling' the tank + the nitrogen cycle if you're not already familiar with it.

And to answer your question, yes you can just do a fishless cycle with the existing ammonia + nitrite in your tank. That's probably your best option at this point. Given that you already have nitrate, you are probably close to being cycled. (once you have 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite, and like 10-20ppm nitrate). 

But when you add fish, add only a FEW at a time so you don't overwhelm the biological filter!


Hope this helps,
-Zeke





Jace said:


> First, off I would love to thank you for all the useful information. I have been reading your forums non-stop for about 2 weeks. I wish I would of found the site prior to setting up my tank as I would of had less problems.
> 
> Ok, a bit of background. I started the tank about 2 months ago. I added some plants about 4 weeks ago and then proceeded to stock it with 6 guppies and 1 sucker fish about 2 weeks ago. When I started the tank I did a check with the cheap strips and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.
> 
> ...


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

zwanged said:


> Hi Jace,
> 
> Nitrate level of 40ppm is high and merits a water change, but NITRITE at any concentration is far more toxic to fish, even more toxic than ammonia. That's almost certainly what killed your fish. What's the size of your tank? What kind of filtration do you have?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the fast reply. The tank is a 37 gallon tank. I am using a Penguin Bio-wheel 210 filter. I also forgot to mention that my daughter emptied an entire can of flakes into the aquarium. Currently since there are no more fish I want to take this time to make sure the tank is cycled prior to adding any more fish. Guess I need to wait until the nitrite level drops?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

40 is ok for nitrAtes with plants,not much higher though.You can just add ammonia and your tank should completely cycle fairly quick since it seems your part way there already.I would test your source water if you never saw a drop after waterchanges, as 50% water change should have reduced levels of anything(not replaced by your source)by 50%.What filter are you running?I wouldn't get a "sucker fish" again as if it is a plecostumus they get huge and are large waste creators.Don't over feed like Zeke said.Your water should be 0 ammonia,0 nitrItes, and 40 or under nitrAtes before you add fish again.Then like Zeke said add slowly.


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

Roger Coral. I have added ammonia and will monitor it so it doesn't drop to zero probably every 4 days or so. My filter is a Penguin Bio-Wheel 200. I took the water to Petsmart for testing and they said it was good minus the high Nitrate. Unfortunately this was after my daughter emptied the whole container of flakes into the tank.

I will continue to monitor the Nitrites and let you guys know when I am 0, 0 , X. I then will do a PWC to get down to 40PPM for Nitrate and should be good to go.

I have snail problem and was thinking of getting some YoYo Loaches to take care of them. Any issues with them and guppies, neons, swordtails, minnows, bettas?

-Jace


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would not be adding any great amount of ammonia and at this stage in your tank. It sounds like your tank has already gone through the ammonia spike and once it went down, created the nitrite spike. It's normal, but at this stage very little ammonia, arguably any, is required to complete your cycle. 

If it were me, I'd do a 50% water change to try and get the nitrites down to a readable level. From there maybe dose some ammonia every 4-5 days and even then, very little....like 1tsp. Forget adding and adding until you reach x-level ppm. Your tank is probably on the verge of completing the nitrogen cycle process.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> I would not be adding any great amount of ammonia and at this stage in your tank. It sounds like your tank has already gone through the ammonia spike and once it went down, created the nitrite spike. It's normal, but at this stage very little ammonia, arguably any, is required to complete your cycle.
> 
> If it were me, I'd do a 50% water change to try and get the nitrites down to a readable level. From there maybe dose some ammonia every 4-5 days and even then, very little....like 1tsp. Forget adding and adding until you reach x-level ppm. Your tank is probably on the verge of completing the nitrogen cycle process.


x2 You're 1/2 done with the cycle now, no way i'd start from scratch. Do water change to bring down the NO2, and keep cruising. 

As for the guppies dying overnight after adding to tank, I'd bet the fish wasn't acclimated well enough. (Some fish are more sensitive, even within same species) Start using the drip acclimation process.


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> I would not be adding any great amount of ammonia and at this stage in your tank. It sounds like your tank has already gone through the ammonia spike and once it went down, created the nitrite spike. It's normal, but at this stage very little ammonia, arguably any, is required to complete your cycle.
> 
> If it were me, I'd do a 50% water change to try and get the nitrites down to a readable level. From there maybe dose some ammonia every 4-5 days and even then, very little....like 1tsp. Forget adding and adding until you reach x-level ppm. Your tank is probably on the verge of completing the nitrogen cycle process.


Roger JR. Thanks for the help.

I have completed my 50% water change. I am going to wait an hour and test the water again. The part I don't understand well is that after my daughter emptied all of a can of flake food in the aquarium, I did a 50% water change every single day for 8 days and could never get the nitrite reading down. I was using the strips then. Hopefully I will get a different result. Lastly, I did do a baseline test on my tap water and I got 0, 0, 0 on everything when I brought the new API test kit.

Again thanks for the help,

-Jace


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

FishFlow said:


> x2 You're 1/2 done with the cycle now, no way i'd start from scratch. Do water change to bring down the NO2, and keep cruising.
> 
> As for the guppies dying overnight after adding to tank, I'd bet the fish wasn't acclimated well enough. (Some fish are more sensitive, even within same species) Start using the drip acclimation process.


Hey Fish,

When I got the fish (6 guppies and one sucker) I floated the bag for about 30mins before transferring them to the new tank. I did some research and half the community says drip a little water in the bag and half say don't mix the water.

What do you think?

-Jace


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Perhaps the nitrite reading was so high that it was just off the charts and therefore your test kit showed no difference....Did you vacuum out the waste from your substrate, gently clean off any huge chunks of food/waste on your filter pads (with dechlorinated water only, not tap!), etc? My guess is that it takes time for the bacteria to process such a huge amount of waste. 

-Zeke



Jace said:


> Roger JR. Thanks for the help.
> 
> I have completed my 50% water change. I am going to wait an hour and test the water again. The part I don't understand well is that after my daughter emptied all of a can of flake food in the aquarium, I did a 50% water change every single day for 8 days and could never get the nitrite reading down. I was using the strips then. Hopefully I will get a different result. Lastly, I did do a baseline test on my tap water and I got 0, 0, 0 on everything when I brought the new API test kit.
> 
> ...


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't know about guppies specifically, but i generally do a hybrid of the 2 approaches. I float the bag in the tank and gradually mix in a little tank water every few minutes. Mixing the water helps speed up the temperature equilibration as well as pH equilibration. Also dilutes any ammonia that may have built up in the bag. Also I try not to mix the store's water with my tank water when I transfer the fish to my tank. I just net the fish out of the bag into my tank, as the store's water may have all sorts of nasties... 

-Zeke



Jace said:


> Hey Fish,
> 
> When I got the fish (6 guppies and one sucker) I floated the bag for about 30mins before transferring them to the new tank. I did some research and half the community says drip a little water in the bag and half say don't mix the water.
> 
> ...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If you can place fish in bucket(any container that is clean and safe) use airline hose with a knot tied in it to "drip water" into the container with fish.After 1/2-1 hr. net fish and place in tank.If you have no containers add a little tank water to bag every 10-15 mins. for 1/2-1 hr.Then remove fish from bag and place in tank.Either way NEVER ADD STORE WATER TO YOURS.Although not much beneficial bacteria are in true water column,most diseases are free swimming and looking for a good home(yours).


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> If you can place fish in bucket(any container that is clean and safe) use airline hose with a knot tied in it to "drip water" into the container with fish.After 1/2-1 hr. net fish and place in tank.If you have no containers add a little tank water to bag every 10-15 mins. for 1/2-1 hr.Then remove fish from bag and place in tank.Either way NEVER ADD STORE WATER TO YOURS.Although not much beneficial bacteria are in true water column,most diseases are free swimming and looking for a good home(yours).


Ok, I will definitely do this when I get my tanked cycled.

Thanks for the advice!


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> I would not be adding any great amount of ammonia and at this stage in your tank. It sounds like your tank has already gone through the ammonia spike and once it went down, created the nitrite spike. It's normal, but at this stage very little ammonia, arguably any, is required to complete your cycle.
> 
> If it were me, I'd do a 50% water change to try and get the nitrites down to a readable level. From there maybe dose some ammonia every 4-5 days and even then, very little....like 1tsp. Forget adding and adding until you reach x-level ppm. Your tank is probably on the verge of completing the nitrogen cycle process.


JR,

After the 50% PWC, here are the measurements: .50ppm, 2.0ppm, 80 - 160ppm (Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates)


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Make sure you are shaking the s*** out of the nitate solution bottles.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah for nitrates, the *second* bottle on the API freshwater test kit it needs to be shaken like hell for 30 secs. and then after adding those 10 drops to the test tube the test tube should be shaken like hell for 60 secs. As it says in the instructions.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Those readings look good. Wait about one more day and ammonia and nitrites should be gone. Worry about the nitrates once the other two have zeroed out. You'll need to do a big water change once it has finished.

The drip acclimation that coralbandit referred to....there is a sticky thread at the top of the general fw forum. Easy to follow instructions with pics.

**EDIT** here is a link http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/drip-acclimating-fish-11327.html


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Those readings look good. Wait about one more day and ammonia and nitrites should be gone. Worry about the nitrates once the other two have zeroed out. You'll need to do a big water change once it has finished.
> 
> The drip acclimation that coralbandit referred to....there is a sticky thread at the top of the general fw forum. Easy to follow instructions with pics.
> 
> **EDIT** here is a link http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/drip-acclimating-fish-11327.html


JR,

I just tested the tank for nitrites and ammonia. The nitrites are back up to 5ppm after the 50% water change yesterday. Surprisingly, the ammonia reading was 0ppm. So definitely have a good culture of ammonia bacteria. Should I do another 50% PWC to get the nitrites back down again? Also, do you think a thorough clean of gravel is in order? I am wondering if there is still too much left over food particles trapped in the gravel. I don't see anything when I look the tank is completely clear.

Again thanks for the help,

-Jace


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

It isn't surprising. You should see ammonia go to 0 first, then nitrites go to 0 and you should be left with just nitrates. Patience. Just need to wait until the bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate, then you will be cycled. Should come down to 0 in a few days. No need to do a water change if there are no fish in the tank.

Any uneaten food / waste that gets stuck in gravel eventually just gets turned into nitrate. So if there's a lot of it you might have some giant nitrate factories in your gravel. Nitrate is good for plants, only toxic to fish at high concentrations (like >30ppm). 

-Zeke




Jace said:


> JR,
> 
> I just tested the tank for nitrites and ammonia. The nitrites are back up to 5ppm after the 50% water change yesterday. Surprisingly, the ammonia reading was 0ppm. So definitely have a good culture of ammonia bacteria. Should I do another 50% PWC to get the nitrites back down again? Also, do you think a thorough clean of gravel is in order? I am wondering if there is still too much left over food particles trapped in the gravel. I don't see anything when I look the tank is completely clear.
> 
> ...


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

zwanged said:


> It isn't surprising. You should see ammonia go to 0 first, then nitrites go to 0 and you should be left with just nitrates. Patience. Just need to wait until the bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate, then you will be cycled. Should come down to 0 in a few days. No need to do a water change if there are no fish in the tank.
> 
> Any uneaten food / waste that gets stuck in gravel eventually just gets turned into nitrate. So if there's a lot of it you might have some giant nitrate factories in your gravel. Nitrate is good for plants, only toxic to fish at high concentrations (like >30ppm).
> 
> -Zeke


Hey Zeke thanks for the quick reply,

I thought it was a bit surprising because it went from 2.5ppm to 0 so fast (like 12 hours). I am now in waiting mode for the nitrite bacteria. Thank you so much for your help. I will let you guys know when I am completely cycled.

-Jace


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would just let it ride.


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

Jace said:


> JR,
> 
> After the 50% PWC, here are the measurements: .50ppm, 2.0ppm, 80 - 160ppm (Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates)


JR, I wanted to give you a current status of my tank.

After waiting a full 10 days with no change in the nitrite levels (unreadable) I did some research on stalled fishless cycling. I got the steps that are going to follow from this link:

http://www.myaquariumclub.com/is-my-fishless-cycle-stalled-1011314.html

Here is what I did step by step based on the information I researched:



Get my nitrites down to a readable level. This required a 90% water change. For the first time after this water exchange I was able to read about a .25ppm nitrite level. The author also suggested to do as many water changes as necessary to get those level down to a readable level.


Add more bacteria. To do this I added a half a bottle of Tetra SafeStart. Since this was the only safe way I could start the bacteria colony.


Begin by dosing 2ppm ammonia which for me was about a little less than 1 tablespoon of pure ammonia


Wait 24 hours and test for ammonia and nitrite. The first time I did this my ammonia reading was about .25ppm. My nitrite reading was between 2.0 - 5.0ppm.


The instructions stated to wait until a noticeable change in nitrite. After waiting another 12 hours my nitrites dropped to 0ppm for the first time since I started the fishless cycle.


Dose to 3ppm ammonia. This was a little less than 2 tablespoons of ammonia.

Wait 24 hours and test for ammonia and nitrite. I did this and got 0 ppm ammonia and .50ppm nitrite. 


I waited an additional 12 hours and got 0ppm nitrite reading again! This really excited me as I can see that things were speeding up.

Today at 13:00 I dosed the full amount of ammonia to 4ppm which is about a little more than 3 tablespoons of ammonia. Hopefully at 13:00 tomorrow my nitrite level will be 0ppm. I will then proceed to get my nitrates down to between 10ppm -20ppm basically orange and go buy some fish!

There are some things that I did this time around that might have help the situation. Here are the differences:



Lower the level of the water so the splashing adds more oxygen to the tank. The first time I started the cycle I filled the water up to the top of the tank.


Chlorinate the water in the bucket. My first time around I just added the de-chlorination dose after the full water exchange to the tank.


Did not replace the filter. The first filter was filthy due to my daughter pouring a full large can of flakes into the water. So I replaced it with a new filter. It could of stalled my fishless cycle using a new filter and because I had to clean the gravel several times to get rid of all the wasted food. (forgot to mention this when I first posted my issues) Sorry about that.


Did water exchanges without disturbing the gravel. Any water exchange I have done since the second fish cycle has been just replacing water and disturbing nothing.


Lastly I used Tetra SafeStart. While conducting research I have read countless thumbs up on the product so I decided to use it on the second fishless cycle. I used API QuickStart and Nutrafin cycle the during the first cycle attempts.
Because of all the help Zeke and you provided, I wanted to update you on my progress. Also, I realized through my researching that there are a ton of people that are having serious issues (like I was) on stalled fishless cycles. I thought this might help them to.

Sorry for the long post.

-Jace


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

JR,

Ok, after 24 hours on a full dose of 4ppm Ammonia. My readings are 0ppm Ammonia and 1ppm of Nitrite. It appears that I am close but still not 0 and 0 after 24 hours.

I am going to wait to see how long it takes for the nitrite to go to 0.

My next question is should I continue to fully dose at 4ppm Ammonia until I get the 24 hour cycle or should I lower the dose not to spike the Nitrite again?

As always thanks for the help,

-Jace


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Keep dosing full right up til stocking.


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## Jace (Dec 25, 2012)

dalfed said:


> Keep dosing full right up til stocking.


Roger Dalfred,

I just woke up and re-tested for Nitrite. My measurement was 0ppm. So it looks like I am dosing 4ppm of Ammonia and although my Ammonia is 0ppm at 24 hours it takes an additional 18 hours (probably minus some due to me sleeping) for the Nitrite to get to 0ppm.

As you stated I have dosed another 4ppm of Ammonia and will test tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the advice,

-Jace


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