# Ammonia Problem



## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Hey everyone, new to the forum, here's my first question:

I recently set up a new aquarium. It's a 56 gallon column, with a variety of cichlids and an african featherfin catfish. There are 10 fish total in the tank currently. The tank was set up and conditioned on 10/15. Fish were added a week later.

I took my water in to be tested last week to see where the tank was at in its "cycle" and all my readings were perfect except the ammonia level was toxic! Which surprised me b/c the fish were showing no signs of distress (they were still eating, swimming, and behaving normally). I immediately bought some ammonia remover, went home removed a small amount of water (in hindsight, I should have probably removed more), replaced with fresh water, vacuumed the gravel, and treated with the ammonia remover and water conditioner. I took the water back the next day to be tested and the ammonia level was down, but still at a dangerous level. I treated the water again with the ammonia remover and tested again the following day, same result.

I then did another water replacement and replaced about 1/4 of the water, vacuumed the gravel again, and treated and conditioned again. Same ammonia reading. I treated the tank again yesterday and tested. Same ammonia reading and this time I tested all the other levels. All other readings for pH, hardness, nitrates, nitrites, alkalinity were perfect. Ammonia was still at that "dangerous" level.

I am out of ideas as to what to do, and I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance.

Fish seem to be fine. They are still eating and seem content - I do see the occasional "flashing", but it's rare. I've cut back on feeding and only feed the cichlids once a day. I feed the catfish separately (at night). So altogether, two daily feedings - the cichlids get a pinch or 2 of flakes and the catfish either gets 1 algae wafer, or 2-3 sinking pellets.

I've also removed one ornament from the tank, as it appeared to be growing some kind of "fuzz" and that's where I normally saw the fish "flashing" against it. I removed that about 3 days ago.

Please help!

*c/p*


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

they way I see it, you should have let it ride instead of adding chemicals in the beginning to get rid of the ammonia

sounds like the tank was just reacting to the addition of the fish, which is to be expected. in about a week, you probably would have noticed the nitrates and nitrites raising, and at the same time the ammonia going back down and eventually zeroing out

my recent 10 gallon did the same thing. my ammonia was off the charts for about a week. I did a few water changes just to keep the water a little more fresh, but the ammonia still stayed high. eventually the nitrate and nitrite levels started showing, and the ammonia began to go away and is now gone completely


It is definitely a good idea to cut back on the feeding a little like you are doing, but you still might even be over feeding them with that process you are using now. The catfish will find left over flakes that the cichlids didn't get, so I'd only throw sinking foods to them every other day or so



What exactly are the levels of ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite, number-wise and not just "good" or "bad"?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Do yourself a favor and get an API master test kit and test your water the right way. My guess is the place you are taking your water to is using test strips, which are very well known for being inaccurate. Plus, trying to run back and forth with a cycling tank will be cumbersome.

STOP adding any chemicals. Not sure what you are adding, but try and get yourself some Prime. It will take care of ammonia. Adding chemicals will only stall the cycle process and usually they deplete oxygen levels in the water. Take care of your high levels by a water change and do one everyday if necessary to get them under control.

Not to be critical, but trying to cycle a tank with a bunch of cichclids may have not been the best idea and you may lose a few, if not all of them. This is why you need to get the test kit. So you can react to any necessary changes in your water.

If you haven't by now, do yourself a favor and read up on the nitrogen cycle to fully understand what your tank is going through, and still left to go through. If you get the test kit, come back here and post your results.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

I really wondered about all the treating I was doing. But it was on the recommendation of the fish person at PetSmart.  I should have known better.

Nitrate: 0 mg/L
Nitrite: Between 0 and .5 mg/L
Hardness: 75 GH
Chlorine: 0 mg/L
Alkalinity: Between 0 and 40 KH
pH: Between 6.2 and 6.8
Ammonia: Between 1.0 and 3.0 mg/L


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Do yourself a favor and get an API master test kit and test your water the right way. My guess is the place you are taking your water to is using test strips, which are very well known for being inaccurate. Plus, trying to run back and forth with a cycling tank will be cumbersome.
> 
> STOP adding any chemicals. Not sure what you are adding, but try and get yourself some Prime. It will take care of ammonia. Adding chemicals will only stall the cycle process and usually they deplete oxygen levels in the water. Take care of your high levels by a water change and do one everyday if necessary to get them under control.
> 
> ...



I do have my own test kit, but it is a test strip kit.

I have also read up on the nitrogen cycle, which is why I was posing a question here. It puzzled me why my ammonia level continued to be so high with absolutely 0 nitrates in the water. The tank has been up almost a month and I figured I'd see at least some nitrates starting to show.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A liquid test kit may show quite a different result and you may be showing some nitrates. 

You say 1 month? Have the fish been in there for 1 month?


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

I bought the tank and set it up on 10/15. Fish were added a week later. So from 10/22 fish have been in the tank.

But from what I'm hearing is to be diligent and frequent with my water changes right now and no more chemicals. And everything _should_ work itself out.

And to look into a liquid test kit.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So then tomorrow it will be 3wks for your cycle, since the cycle didn't start until you added an ammonia source, which is what the fish are.


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## carpus (Oct 16, 2010)

First, given that you have fish in the tank, treating for ammonia is fine, maybe required. It _will_ kill your fish if you _don't_ get rid of high ammonia. 

What you really ought to do is take back the fish until the tank cycles. If they told you that it was ok to do what you were doing, they are culpable. Failing that you are in a pattern of ammonia treatments and water changes, which is doable, just not ideal. 

You might want to add some bio-filter _bacteria_ in the form of *Tetra Safestart,* which will help things, _especially_ if you have not put in any existing filter media or other bio-filter organisms. Do a big water change before you begin adding the organisms, as subsequent changes will get rid of the bacteria in the water column that have not settled somewhere, and you want them in there a while. 

Don't add the *Safestart* all at once--do half one day, half the next, and pour it into the intake side of your filter and do it slowly, maybe over a period of hours. If you have carbon in your filter get rid of it before the bacteria go in. Buy more bio-media for your filter and use it.

If you are not using *Seachem Prime* for the dechlorination, you might want to try that, as it not only does the job on hypochlorite and chloramine, but takes the edge off of ammonia as well. I would _not_ substitute it for your ammonia detox chemical, but use it in addition.

Good Luck.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Adding chemicals is not necessary and will only stall the cycle and make it take longer to complete. If the ammonia is high do a water change.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Update:

I did a water change today, a little more than 1/3 but not quite 1/2 of the water in the tank. I went out for the evening and came home and tested the water and the ammonia level is down to .5 mg/L, so it appears to be heading in the right direction now.

How long should I wait for another water change? I don't want to change too often or too much...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Just keep testing for ammonia and start testing for nitrite. If they get above 1, do a water change. Try to keep them at 1 or below.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Update:

Tested for ammonia today at it was back at 1.0, nitrites still at 0. Did a 50% water change and ammonia down to .5.

Should I wait until ammonia get's up to 1 to do a water change again? Or should I do another change tomorrow? I feel like I'm only knocking it down temporarily, and then in a day or two it's up high enough to do another water change.

Also, I've been watching the fish more closely and I am seeing several of them "flashing", which is concerning me.


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

My ammonia pegged at 8 for about 3 days before I ever saw a trace of nitrites or nitrates...


but all I had at the time were two Mollies and a Cory, and they're strong little suckers that are still thriving in the tank to this day


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If it stays at 1 or below I'd leave it...not to go beynd a week. I would do the same for nitrites once they start showing.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

I was out of town for 3 days, came back and tested the water - nitrites finally showing!

Did a 1/4 water change today, will test in a few hours.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

After the water change on Sunday, ammonia and nitrite levels were acceptable (1 or lower). Tested this morning and ammonia is still less than 1, but nitrites have spiked to 5+. Immediate water change? And how much?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, I'd do a 50% change.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> After the water change on Sunday, ammonia and nitrite levels were acceptable (1 or lower). Tested this morning and ammonia is still less than 1, but nitrites have spiked to 5+. Immediate water change? And how much?


At least it looks like your tank is finally on the right track.

You don't have live plants I'm assuming?


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

No live plants, just a couple fake ones.

Did a 50% water change today. Will test the water in the morning and report back.

Thank you all for your prompt and helpful responses.


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## elspru (Nov 24, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> No live plants, just a couple fake ones.
> 
> Did a 50% water change today. Will test the water in the morning and report back.
> 
> Thank you all for your prompt and helpful responses.


okay. I have never done a water change for cleaning water.
I just add water, when some evaporates.
by having a deep sand bed, which allows the nitrogen cycle to complete.
though mine is a heavily planted tank for producing oxygen,
I have freshwater tube worms to help dig through the soil, 
snails, nematodes, mayflies, water-boatmen maintain plants and algae,
hydrozoa hydra's eat the various plankton or micro-animals.

i don't feed it. though admitedly I've only had it a week or two, it's showing marked signs of growth. 
Deep Sand Beds however are a tried and tested technology,
has been used in salt-water aquariums for a while now. 

however this post has gotten me curious, and I might get a water-testing kit at some point. 
it's just that had an aquarium at parents house for years and we didn't bother testing the water ever. 
only did water changes for moving the rather large aquarium.
it had few plants, so could only support somewhat small fish,
currently it has a school of neons, 2 or 3 cichlids and some bottom feeder snake like catfish..


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## kert1224 (Nov 22, 2010)

it does sound like your tank is starting to get on track. i strongly agree with whoever said prime, if you are not already useing it. and altho this might be a controversal topic i would also suggest a few items from microbe-lift. mainly the "special blend" and "nite out 2" both of these are the "bacteria in a bottle" type products that some people think work and some dont. ive just started using thier stuff and ive been very impressed. the whole benificial bacteria thing has been broken down into two parts which is why there is two products, the "special blend" claims to have the bacteria for changing from ammonia to nitrate and the "nite out 2" claims to provide the nitrate to nitrite bacteria. they also hgave a dechlorinater (spelling i know) and i also use their "aquatic stress relief" i use to use prime/stress coat/stress zyme now i use (all from microbe-lift) super dechorinator, aquatice stress relief, special blend, then nite out 2. in that order and have noticed a bit difference in water clarity and the look of the biomax in my filters. if you have the money i would suggest at least special blend and nite out 2. other very good option include (if someon you know has an established tank) to get a bowl of their gravel and put it in your tank for a month. making sure of course that all ammonia is out of your water, once again suggesting prime for this. if not a friend possibly a local privatly owned small pet shop that you trust would let you take a bowl full out of one of their tanks. also a cheap booster for the current problem and cheap extra to always have in your tank if one of the very simple bubble operated sponge filters Foam Aquarium Filters: Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter 6 & 7 
hope you get things worked out


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks everyone! I've never heard of Prime, I'll have to look it up. And this is probably a very amatuer mistake, but I didn't know I could have sand in my tank rather than gravel...I don't guess I ever thought much about it. Is sand better? Or is it just a preference? I've been considering adding live plants to my tank, but at this point I think I need to make sure what I've got going succeeds before I go changing it.

I did a water test this morning after last night's change. Ammonia is down to 0 (yay!), nitrites are down to 3 (still very high, I know), and nitrates are somewhere between 0 and 20...it's hard to tell on the color chart.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Didn't look back at the beginning, but if you have fish you need to do another water change. A level of 3 will kill your fish. 1 or below is where you need it.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

elspru said:


> however this post has gotten me curious, and I might get a water-testing kit at some point.
> it's just that had an aquarium at parents house for years and we didn't bother testing the water ever.
> only did water changes for moving the rather large aquarium.
> it had few plants, so could only support somewhat small fish,
> currently it has a school of neons, 2 or 3 cichlids and some bottom feeder snake like catfish..


That's why I created this post...in all the tanks I've ever owned, I never tested the water or did large water changes. I just set up the tank, put fish in and added water when it got low.

So I guess in a sense, I felt like a rookie starting out, when I realized there was so much I didn't know! I still have tons of questions to come later, regarding canister filters, live plants, more fish, etc. But right now, I'm concentrating on trying to get the tank sound. This has definitely been a learning experience.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Didn't look back at the beginning, but if you have fish you need to do another water change. A level of 3 will kill your fish. 1 or below is where you need it.


Ok, I'll try another water change...is it common to change the water this much with spikes in levels?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> Ok, I'll try another water change...is it common to change the water this much with spikes in levels?


Yes. The more I read about people's experiences, it's the nitrites that will having you change a lot of water. Should only last a week or so though and you should be close to complete.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Just did another 50% water change, will test water this afternoon.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Nitrites around 1 for now.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

I've noticed continued flashing and the fish rubbing themselves on the tank objects.

Should I just keep my eye on them, and continue with water changes until the cycling is finished? Or should I be concerned about disease or something more serious?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Notice any clamped fins or white spots that look like small air bubbles or sand on the skin?


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

No white spots or clamped fins that I can see. Each fish does the occasional rub against something (once ever few hours or so). Other than that they appear ok. They are eating and moving about (not lethargic).

I have 1 fish who is noticeably distressed, and he's been that way for 2 days. I assumed it was the nitrite level getting to him. I was hoping with the water changes and gradual improvement that he'd get better. But he doesn't appear to be. He is staying in one spot most of the time (either floating up at the top of the tank, or in a corner at the bottom of the tank). He is not eating either. I'll be honest, I figured he'd be gone by now...but I found him this morning and he's still breathing.

Should I see if he can make it, or go ahead and remove him from the tank? I'm also planning on doing another water change today to see if I can keep knocking the nitrites down.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

The one fish didn't make it.

Did another water change today and have the nitrites down to between .5 and 1.

Hoping that the tank will be in good condition by next weekend so I can add some new fish!


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## elspru (Nov 24, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> The one fish didn't make it.
> 
> Did another water change today and have the nitrites down to between .5 and 1.
> 
> Hoping that the tank will be in good condition by next weekend so I can add some new fish!


yo, seriously,
making life easier,
for you and for the fish,

you've made so many tank-water changes,
you might as well change to contents of the tank.

make a deep sand or clay bed,
get some plants and worms or digging snails.

water changes themselves can be irritating to fish.

:fish-in-bowl:
see in this fishbowl, there is some soil, and a plant,
ideally there would be more soil and more plants,
ordinarily amonia and nitrates are balanced in the anaerobic deep layer,
there are supposed to be more plants than fish in an ordinary eco-system.
so that the fish could feed on the plants, or whatever eats them.
that way you wouldn't even have to feed them..
or if you forget to, they could eat the natural food-source.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Since getting the nitrites down to about .5, they've been creeping back up. I bought some Prime and added that to the tank to help detoxify the nitrites. The nitrite levels aren't rising anymore, but still seem to be holding steady around 2, which I know is too high.

Time for another water change?

I can't wait to be done cycling.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> Since getting the nitrites down to about .5, they've been creeping back up. I bought some Prime and added that to the tank to help detoxify the nitrites. The nitrite levels aren't rising anymore, but still seem to be holding steady around 2, which I know is too high.
> 
> Time for another water change?
> 
> I can't wait to be done cycling.


IMO all you need to be doing is keeping the nitrites down using water changes until the whole tank is cycled.

How much and how often are you feeding the fish? If you are over feeding the numbers are going to go up too fast and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to keep up.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Maybe I am overfeeding...

I feed a pinch in the morning before work. When I get home from work, I feed another couple pinches, and a few sinking pellets. When I go to bed and cut off the lights I throw in a small wafer for the catfish. Whenver I feed them, they act ravenous, like I starve the poor things, and they always eat everything I put in - there is very little to no waste.

I'll do another water change and keep it up until my readings are good.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> Maybe I am overfeeding...
> 
> I feed a pinch in the morning before work. When I get home from work, I feed another couple pinches, and a few sinking pellets. When I go to bed and cut off the lights I throw in a small wafer for the catfish. Whenver I feed them, they act ravenous, like I starve the poor things, and they always eat everything I put in - there is very little to no waste.
> 
> I'll do another water change and keep it up until my readings are good.


Try cutting back the feeding drastically IMO because the fish are producing way too much waste (ammonia) for the system to keep up with. I started my tank with 1 crushed flake per day for my 6 harlequin rasboras. Fish, from what I understand of them, will just keep eating and eating as long as there is a food source. Once those nitrite levels zero out then you can increase a little food and watch the numbers again. If the numbers go back up with the extra food don't keep doing more and more.

Also a whole wafer per day is a too much IMO for small cats. I was told 2 per week at the lfs... so naturally I'm going to go with 1/2 a wafer twice per week. Better safe than sorry.

It is my understanding that way more tanks meet their demise from overfeeding vs. underfeeding.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks for the input!

I'll cut back on feeding and change the water again.


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## marmstrong (Nov 11, 2010)

Cut back on feeding, and did 2 more water changes since the last post.

Have only had trace amounts of nitrites the past few days. Going to watch the tank for another week and make sure all levels are sustained.

Have a few questions about going forward. My plan is to add more fish, once I'm sure the tank is done cycling. When I add more fish, I have 2 new (larger, with more holes) ornaments I would like to add to the tank. Is it a bad idea to add new ornaments after the tank is done cycling? Will it throw the balance off?

Also, I am now seriously considering adding live plants to help the tank be more self-sustaining. What plants are good to start with? I have a gravel substrate. Any tips I should know about having a planted tank? (I also plan to read the planted tank forum thoroughly - just thought I'd pose a few questions here first).

Thank you all for all the feedback.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

marmstrong said:


> Have a few questions about going forward. My plan is to add more fish, once I'm sure the tank is done cycling. When I add more fish, I have 2 new (larger, with more holes) ornaments I would like to add to the tank. Is it a bad idea to add new ornaments after the tank is done cycling? Will it throw the balance off?


Add fish slowly once you're cycled. Only a few each week or so. Adding ornaments won't cause trouble with your tank, but adding too many new fish at once will.


> Also, I am now seriously considering adding live plants to help the tank be more self-sustaining. What plants are good to start with? I have a gravel substrate. Any tips I should know about having a planted tank? (I also plan to read the planted tank forum thoroughly - just thought I'd pose a few questions here first).


One thing I'd like to point out up front is that I think some cichlids can be hard on plants. I haven't kept cichlids, so I really can't comment on it from my experience. I suggest you listen to anyone who keeps cichlids on what will work for you.
The biggest problem most have is with lighting. For a 55G you need at least 100W of florescent lighting for low-light plants, and 150W would be nice. Lots of plants are working for me with less light, but they grow slowly, and will absorb less ammonia/nitrates. If you get up to 3-4W/gallon you start having to consider a CO2 system. This would give you the best results, probably, but a balancing act from what I hear.
It would be better to have a fancy substrate.. either eco-complete, flourite, or beaslbobs layering of peat, sand and gravel. Having said that, you can do a lot with plain gravel too. Many plants aren't all that picky. One thing that would help is buying root tablets to serve as fertilizer. I just added some to mine this weekend. I hear they work well.

Good luck!


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