# I Need Some Immediate Help Here With Regard to Exhausted Filter Carbon...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I am uncertain as to the best place on the forum for this question to be posted, but since it pertains to the health of my goldfish, I figured the Tank Emergencies section would be as good a place as any to start with...

My Black/Gold Moor has been exhibiting signs of an "ulcer" outbreak of some kind, in which "pimple-like" formations have jutted out from beneath her scales, but which also disappear just as quickly...for the last few weeks, she has shown these signs, as if "whiteheads" are trying to burst from beneath her scales, and there was even a "cotton-y white" looking growth near her hind fins, but, as I said, these all seem to "pop" or disappear on their own. Making things even more confusing is the fact that she shows absolutely NO signs of distress during these periods -- she is swimming happily and eating and showing no symptoms of stress or sickness...

Here's where things get a bit tricky: One of the HOB filters I run on my 60 gallon goldfish tank, an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, takes dual carbon "cartridges" made of floss, and I have been running the same two cartridges in the filter since setting up the new tank, which has been for about two months or so...Aqueon recommends changing these cartridges every six or so weeks, claiming the blue plastic "bio grids" and "bio holsters" house the beneficial bacteria, thus allowing the cartridges to be thrown away and replaced when they get nasty looking...

From everything I have been told about this cartridge media, they actually don't need to be replaced even when the carbon is exhausted, as they can be dunked and rinsed in removed tank water just like the AquaClear-style media, whereby the sponges and BioMax gets rinsed off and reused; and so, thinking this was okay, I have been simply "dunking" my Aqueon's cartridges in removed water during water changes, getting off loose debris and such, even though my carbon MUST be exhausted...

BUT -- just recently, I had this discussion with someone on the KOKOS GOLDFISH FORUM, which is an enthusiast site for goldfish owners, and he suggested to me that something MAY actually be toxifying my water due to the exhausted carbon...and it sounds like what these pathogens are causing are the "ulcers" I am seeing on my Moor...please read this:

*1. Were it not for the carbon, the rest of the media is just like the DIYs, you can rinse it and reuse it until it falls apart. 

2. I am not one to disregard carbon's importance and use. However, it's really not necessary. Unlike some myths that get passed around, "loaded" carbons do not release back to the water what they once held. Carbon however, can contribute to the increase of phosphates in the water, and that will depend on the brand. Some will have more than others.

3. The real problem is that Aeromonas, a group of pathogenic bacteria, love to colonize in these carbon particles. The longer you leave them there, the more these will grow and can attack your tank. Aeromonas' effects on goldfish include fin problems, ulcers, and wen ulcers.

http://www.who.int/w...q/admicrob2.pdf
http://aem.asm.org/c.../52/3/434.short

Point 3 is the reason why I vehemently oppose the use of carbon long term. It's not necessary. It's expensive, AND it can bring disease to your tank. *

That was his FIRST reply to me; the second was THIS:

*What I am suggesting is to dispense with carbon entirely. I have not found any convincing arguments as to why they need to be there. From the stand point of having replace them often (every month according to the companies suggestions), to them taking up valuable real estate that could be occupied by other media, to the fact that they can harbor pathogens, to the fact they can leech phosphates all argue against using carbon.

The answer to your question is that no one knows quite when they are exhausted for your system, unless you test it. The companies suggest 1-2 months (depending on the product and the company), but that's really an estimate, and I'm not even sure how good that is.*

A new reply from him just came in, concerning me even FURTHER, as we seem to be going around in circles here:

*There are many scientific articles showing about Aeromonas living on the carbon particles, as well as the fact that it leeches phosphates, which are also undesirables in the tank.

Could those bumps/cysts be bacterial? Could they be from carbon? Probably. Why can't I say for certain? Because I don't have anyway of having you test for the presence of Aeromonas there, but the symptoms are consistent with Aeromonas driven diseases. More than that, and we would require some microbiology work. 

Your last question brings to mind another reason why cartridges are such a terrible idea. Every time you do this, you remove beneficial bacteria, since you are throwing the cartridge away. So, it is the clicheic throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, replace them if you suspect that it's causing you problems.

I am just going to say this one last time, because I am not to persist in trying to convince you of anything. Switch to media that have no carbon.

Having said that, it's your tank, your fish.*

As you can see, I am VERY worried now that these "pathogens" he speaks of could have grown on my exhausted carbon inside my Aqueon filter, and is now causing the "bumps" I am seeing on my Moor (he suggests these things can cause ulcers in goldfish)...

Can anyone assist me in making heads or tails with this? Can exhausted carbon REALLY cause these kinds of problems? Should I yank out the cartridges that have been running in the filter for about two months and swap them for new ones right now incase that is what is going on?

Has anyone heard of toxins being THIS seriously leeched back into a tank from exhausted carbon?

Please help!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Change the carbon, not the rest of the cartridge. If you can't dismantle the cartridge, then replace the whole thing. Otherwise, you're right; the exhausted carbon is probably not helping your fish. Though, with a planted tank, I never use carbon so I haven't experienced anything like what you're describing.

FYI, exhausted carbon makes great plant fertilizer.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You can cut the top off cartridge and dump the carbon.Then you don't have to ditch your bacteria.I beleive(from your postings) that you change enough water you really don't need the carbon,and knowing nothing about aeromonas, I still no fan of carbon.It does nothing waterchanges don't do.So don't ditch your bacteria,cut the top off of cartridge and dump the carbon.Since you have 2 cartridges you could also replace 1 every month, but seems a waste of money because of carbon.I'll also add that carbon lasting a month(even the really expensive ones) I think is a serious over estimate.I've read it could be as short lived as one week with cheaper carbon(you don't think they use the best in "joe averidge cartridge" do you?)


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Oh just great...

So the exhausted carbon IS harming the fish? I had an exhaustive conversation with people here and on Aquarium Advice who stated carbon leeches NOTHING into the water and it's a myth that it's toxic...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I can't say scientifically whether it leaches or not(pretty sure the seachem rep did though),but the point is you do regular water changes and the true effectiveness of carbon is not greater than waterchanges.
That being said ,have you ever tried PURIGEN.It is way better than carbon,rechargeable and I know for fact that the seachem guy said it does not leach.It is also easy to tell when it is exhausted and needs recharging as it changes color.Many have said they have never seen their water so clear before they used it.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

I have ABSOLUTELY used Purigen, Bandit, in my previous 60 gallon, and have become a major supporter of the stuff...I used to run one 100ml pouch in the Aqueon alongside the cartridges, as well as two 100ml pouches as a layer in the AquaClear above the sponge and below the BioMax...

I still would like to know what to do about these cartridges sold by Aqueon FOR their filters; is my Black Moor exhibiting these "cysts" and lumps on her body from infectious bacteria organisms coming from the EXHAUSTED CARBON in these cartridges? And if so, why haven't they made her REALLY SICK to the point she wouldn't eat or would look stressed? She hasn't looked stressed or refused to eat since getting these "pimples" and it's been going on for over a month now...they disappear as quickly as they show up...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It is very possible your black moor is showing his turbecles since he may think it is breeding season?They say that is how you can sex them .
Black Moor Goldfish, Black Demekin Information, Care and Pictures
Go down to breeding paragraph.
You may have better luck if you just search turbecles on black moors and see if they are what you are seeing?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> It is very possible your black moor is showing his turbecles since he may think it is breeding season?They say that is how you can sex them .
> Black Moor Goldfish, Black Demekin Information, Care and Pictures
> Go down to breeding paragraph.
> You may have better luck if you just search turbecles on black moors and see if they are what you are seeing?


Thanks for the info, Bandit; I looked over that page with regard to the breeding possibility, but our Moor isn't showing signs of the "white bumps" in the areas they specify...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK besides the well published lit on carbon causing HLLE(hole in the head ,lateral line erosion) I found this link.I'm not all sure it is of any use but claims that carbon is actually harmful to the bacteria we all desire to keep cycled aquariums.
fishyou.com aquarium information
If you are unfamiliar with the HLLE and carbon (which reefing madness has mentioned numerous times in salt threads) I found good links and the one above by searching"can activated carbon cause diseases"
Possibly a pic of your moor would help to figure out what the "pimples" are.
Sorry it wasn't part of him/her wanting to breed.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> OK besides the well published lit on carbon causing HLLE(hole in the head ,lateral line erosion) I found this link.I'm not all sure it is of any use but claims that carbon is actually harmful to the bacteria we all desire to keep cycled aquariums.
> fishyou.com aquarium information
> If you are unfamiliar with the HLLE and carbon (which reefing madness has mentioned numerous times in salt threads) I found good links and the one above by searching"can activated carbon cause diseases"
> Possibly a pic of your moor would help to figure out what the "pimples" are.
> Sorry it wasn't part of him/her wanting to breed.


Thanks Again, Bandit...

I am not 100 percent CERTAIN it's not a breeding symptom, I just wanted to point out that I don't see her symptoms coming from those specific locations cited...

At any rate, that's not good news regarding the carbon; what should I do about the Aqueon filter, then? Should these cartridges be used at all?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

To get rid of the carbon just take a pair of scissors and cut either the top or bottom of the filter pad and dump the carbon out.Then you can even see how little the really put in there.This should have no effect on the pad effeciency.
I didn't read thoroughly about the breeding bumps but would think that if your fish seems otherwise healthy that they may still be an option.
If you're still doing your water changes as in the beginning then you really don't need the carbon anyways,and since your familiar with purigen(I use the 100 ml packet also as they are awesome),just get one packet and place in filter on the outflow side and you should be good to go.The packets are rechergeable and should easily last you years.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

I have not the years of experience that most of the other members have here so what I say should be double checked before using.
I have never had carbon in any filter since the 60's for though it may help/w unwanted metals in the water it's use for other purposes
is redundant to say the least.
I didn't research your filters but most have some type of slots into which the "pads" fit. Were I to choose to use one of those type of filters
this is how I would use it. I already purchase these from this company as they lend their self well to building filter screens. I have bought every 
size they have just to see and the number 7 mesh has holes just over 1/8th inch and the number 5 mesh has holes just under 1/4 inch which
a tie wrap(the smallest ones) fit well. Therefore you need not use any metal/glue/screws etc to make most of what you might make from it.
EverythingPlasticCanvas.com: Plastic Canvas
I would simply replace the pad which the water enters first with a cut piece of this in number 5 and fill in the aria behind it with either of
these bio media or if necessary find a smaller one.
Seachem Matrix Bio-Media Aquarium Filter Bio Media
Aquatop Premium Ceramic Rings Aquarium Filter Bio Media
Hagen Fluval Pre-Filter Media 750 grams Aquarium Filter Bio Media
And with the Matrix I'd get the smallest jar as it's more likely to contain the highest amount of smaller pieces. 
I do believe that the AquaClear has no slots so instead you might just buy a couple of these and use them instead of what Hagen sells.
Hagen Fluval C-Nodes Biological Media for Fluval C2 and C3 Power Filter Aquarium Filter Bio Media
Cascade Bio Ceramic Rings Aquarium Filter Bio Media
And to be sure I would do one filter at a time a couple of weeks apart from each other. BTW SafeStart actually works.
Other than that to touch on a basic the entire inside of the tank is your bio-filter...glass/plants/ top of your substrate so changing both filters
at the same time...no..and cleaning the glass while your in there to change the filter...not ever. Because the beneficial bacteria reproduce
in proportion to their food supply...they only have enough to do the needed job.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> To get rid of the carbon just take a pair of scissors and cut either the top or bottom of the filter pad and dump the carbon out.Then you can even see how little the really put in there.This should have no effect on the pad effeciency.
> I didn't read thoroughly about the breeding bumps but would think that if your fish seems otherwise healthy that they may still be an option.
> If you're still doing your water changes as in the beginning then you really don't need the carbon anyways,and since your familiar with purigen(I use the 100 ml packet also as they are awesome),just get one packet and place in filter on the outflow side and you should be good to go.The packets are rechergeable and should easily last you years.


Hello Again, Bandit...

Thanks for your ongoing assistance. Actually, just tonight, I did a "mid-week" partial water change (I normally do a weekly 50% water change and then a mid-week "half-of-that" exchange, so tonight I did 15 gallons; half of 30...) and upon startup of both the Aqueon and AquaClear filters, I swapped out ONE of the Aqueon cartridges for a new one (we still had some left from a six-pack we bought) so the old cartridge still has the seeded BB on it...I was advised that I should wait about four or five weeks before swapping out the old cartridge for a second new one, so that's what I'll just probably end up doing because I CANNOT get ANY concrete information or evidence concerning exhausted carbon and if it harms water and fish after awhile...

With regard to the PURIGEN -- you mentioned putting the pack near the filter's OUTFLOW area, but what I used to do when running these in the Aqueon is drop them into that little "empty chamber" where the water bubbles around right after the pipe intake, before it flows into the cartridges as it didn't seem to fit anywhere else (actually, I used just ONE pack of Purigen in the Aqueon and TWO in the AquaClear)...are you suggesting I place the pack in FRONT of the cartridges, before the water return? Will placing the pouch of Purigen in that FIRST intake chamber have any adverse effect on the polishing properties of the stuff? Seachem once advised me it that it didn't matter where I placed it...

As for the recharging -- I'm aware the pouches can be recharged, but I just end up replacing them because I don't want to get into dropping them into a bleach solution and from all accounts I have read about, the "recharged" packs of Purigen don't last NEARLY as long as the original...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Raymond S. said:


> I have not the years of experience that most of the other members have here so what I say should be double checked before using.
> I have never had carbon in any filter since the 60's for though it may help/w unwanted metals in the water it's use for other purposes
> is redundant to say the least.
> I didn't research your filters but most have some type of slots into which the "pads" fit. Were I to choose to use one of those type of filters
> ...


Hello Raymond,

Thanks for your input; indeed, I'm aware of ALL the media Hagen sells under the AquaClear and Fluval brands (the BioMax rings, etc.) and will probably look into adding some of this ceramic material for added BB growth to the Aqueon HOB...in the meantime, as I reported to Bandit, I went ahead tonight, after a small water change, and replaced just ONE of the Aqueon carbon cartridges with a new one (we had some leftover from a six-pack we purchased some time ago), so the older cartridge is still in there with the "seeded" BB colonies; as you suggested and as I am being instructed, I will wait a few weeks before swapping out the OTHER cartridge so the new one has some time to build bacteria (this Aqueon in question takes TWO large catridges, so the "staggering" can work). I did this out of sheer fear that the exhausted carbon in these cartridges are leaching toxins that MAY be harming my goldfish; I just don't know for sure, and cannot get ANY concrete answers on this... 

As for SafeStart, I'm aware of these kinds of products and actually use Seachem's version of this bacteria-building chemical known as STABILITY with great success thus far...however, I only use it when starting a new tank up for the very first time, to get the BB to "kick start" so the fish could be added in a couple of days...and this has always, in my experience, protected the fish from New Tank Syndrome and any shock of going into a new environment...I set up my last two tanks with dosing with STABILITY, and didn't lose one fish...

Seachem claims Stability should be used and dosed for a week, and during that time all aquatic life can be SAFELY introduced at any time...so long as the seven-day regiment is followed. What I normally do is wait a couple of days for the Stability to "take hold" a bit, as well as letting the tank get to the room temperature the fish are used to (provided this is a tank-to-tank transfer; brand-new fish purchased from the store going into a brand-new tank would also benefit from this Stability process though) and in so doing, I never lost a fish and they never showed signs of stress in the new environment...

But those are really the only times I would use those "bacteria kick-starting" products...


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## rayray74 (Mar 19, 2013)

My 2 cents. 
The HOB filters, only use the blue media. Behind it put a pack of purigen or chemi-pure. Use a hydro sponge in the tank. DONE.
I say this because I have been to alot of breeders and and this is all they use and all they have used for years with no issues. 
I have seen many articles that are against carbon. This is after I put 2 packs in a tank and had a green water algae bloom. Yanked the carbon out and kicked on the uv sterilizer. Poof, green water gone. 
So I asked myself why I would use it. I wanted it to make the water 'clear'.
I walked across the street to the old jamicans house who has 5 tanks and a pond.
He giggles and says... chemi pure. 
Thats all I needed to hear.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It doesn't matter where the purigen goes, but I always try to use it after my mechanicals, just to keep it clean.And it does last just as long after recharging,and really could last years!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> It doesn't matter where the purigen goes, but I always try to use it after my mechanicals, just to keep it clean.


Alright, so guide me through this process, if you will, with regard to my two particular filters...in the Aqueon, I should place the 100ml pouch AFTER the second cartridge, before the water return flow? I tried that once and it didn't fit -- that's why I placed it in that little "chamber" where the intake water bubbles and churns before it hits the media...

In the AquaClear, I placed two 100ml pouches of Purigen ABOVE the sponge block, but UNDER the layers of BIOMAX...so the layering looked like THIS:

*Sponge Block (bottom)
Purigen Packs (middle)
BioMax Rings (top)*

Should I try and get the Purigen ON TOP OF the BioMax, so it's the last media to make contact with the water? Or is BEFORE the BioMax stage okay?

Thanks...



> And it does last just as long after recharging,and really could last years!


Interesting; everything I have read by people who have recharged it said the opposite...

At any rate, I will try it maybe; what's the process for recharging this stuff?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I always try to keep the purigen last,but as long as it is after the mechanical(your sponge as you described) it will work well.The whole point is to not crap up the bag and allow water to flow through it better.Also your biological media will remove the stuff it can(which purigen can also) so placing it last allows it to "focus"more on the nitrates, that nothing else(besides water changes ) work on.
I soak my purigen in 50/50 bleach(unscented) and water for at least 24 hours(I may stir it up a little after 24 hours if it is not "pure" white like new and let it soak another day).Then I soak it in tap water for a day,rinse and then soak it in double dechlorinated water.The reason you double dechlorinate is all bleaches are chlorine based.I know it is good to go back in tank if I smell no chlorine(bleach) in the pouch.I've regenerated some of my pouches(I use the 100ml as the bag they provide is of a quality not for sale{and nothing holds up to multiple bleaching like they do}) for a year now and they always(given enough time) have come back "pure" white from a green to brown condition.I use purigen in my sumps, both fresh and salt and water is not "forced" through it but it sure does change color,indicating that it is soaking up something.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I always try to keep the purigen last,but as long as it is after the mechanical(your sponge as you described) it will work well.The whole point is to not crap up the bag and allow water to flow through it better.Also your biological media will remove the stuff it can(which purigen can also) so placing it last allows it to "focus"more on the nitrates, that nothing else(besides water changes ) work on.


Wait a minute, wait a minute...let's go slow with regard to each of my particular filters, as I think something's getting missed here...

Okay -- with regard to the *Aqueon QuietFlow 55*, this filter takes two floss carbon cartridges, and looks like THIS:

Aqueon Quiet Flow 55 75 Filter for 55 60g Aquarium Fish Tank New | eBay

Do you see where there is that "empty chamber" to the left of where the cartridges are supposed to slide in? That is where I normally dropped the Purigen packet in; do you think I should try to get it in AFTER the cartridges where that blue "bio-grid" begins? I couldn't make that work before...

Now -- if we're talking about the *AquaClear 110*, are you saying it's okay to put the two Purigen pouches UNDER the BioMax? Right now, my layering is like this:

*Sponge Block - BOTTOM
BioMax Sacks - TOP*

Are you saying it's alright to wedge the Purigen between the sponge and BioMax...it doesn't HAVE to go right on top? 



> I soak my purigen in 50/50 bleach(unscented) and water for at least 24 hours(I may stir it up a little after 24 hours if it is not "pure" white like new and let it soak another day).Then I soak it in tap water for a day,rinse and then soak it in double dechlorinated water.The reason you double dechlorinate is all bleaches are chlorine based.I know it is good to go back in tank if I smell no chlorine(bleach) in the pouch.I've regenerated some of my pouches(I use the 100ml as the bag they provide is of a quality not for sale{and nothing holds up to multiple bleaching like they do}) for a year now and they always(given enough time) have come back "pure" white from a green to brown condition.I use purigen in my sumps, both fresh and salt and water is not "forced" through it but it sure does change color,indicating that it is soaking up something.


Wow...seems like a lot of work to recharge these things; probably the reason why I always chose to just rebuy them when exhausted!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You don't need the purigen in both filters.One 100ml pouch is good for 100 gallons.So don't use any in your aqueon filter.And ya if you put it after your sponge you should be fine.
It really is no work recharging;I pour 2 cups of bleach and water in a plastic paint pale,drop in purigen.Check it in a day(maybe stir it like for 10 seconds) pull it out the next day dump bleach and water fill pale with water drop in purigen and check it in a day,dump water add new water and double dechlorinate it and soak for another day.It takes a whole 3 minutes through out the course of 3 days and 2 cups of bleach instead of spending $10 and gas to LFS.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> You don't need the purigen in both filters.One 100ml pouch is good for 100 gallons.So don't use any in your aqueon filter.


I realize I am going overboard with the Purigen, but I have always done it this way for EXTREMELY pristine water conditions; plus, I wanted to add something to the "ordinary" media that the Aqueon takes, with just those two cartridges...do you not think the Aqueon could benefit from something like Purigen along with its dual cartridges?



> And ya if you put it after your sponge you should be fine.


Thanks; it doesn't HAVE to be the final and last media stop the water hits?



> It really is no work recharging;I pour 2 cups of bleach and water in a plastic paint pale,drop in purigen.Check it in a day(maybe stir it like for 10 seconds) pull it out the next day dump bleach and water fill pale with water drop in purigen and check it in a day,dump water add new water and double dechlorinate it and soak for another day.It takes a whole 3 minutes through out the course of 3 days and 2 cups of bleach instead of spending $10 and gas to LFS.


My LFS doesn't carry the Purigen -- I always have to buy it online via Amazon...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Honestly if the blue plastic in the aqueon is not attached to the filter pads I would just get cut to fit or lifegaurd felt pads and never worry about carbon again.And I don't really see a good space(as you said ) for the purigen in the aqueon.The aquaclear will fit how ever much you want though and where the purigen is(one filter or two) doesn't matter as all water is mixed and therfore treated.The aqueon filter seems a little cheesy in compare to the aquaclears IMO.


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