# How to get optimal plant growth without CO2?



## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

So I have had my tank set up for almost 2 months now with some live plants in it. I have 2 anubias which have done pretty well, growing about 3-4 new leaves each. Other than that though, nothing else has really grown any new leaves, most of them actually losing most leaves.

My jungle Val all pretty much withered away fairly quickly. Now the leaves are about an inch long. They are nice and green, but cut off from the original length of about 10 inches, with no new leaf growth. my amazon sword lost all its taller leaves, and now has a bunch of small leaves left. Its only about 3-4 inches in height now. The java ferns havent done anything, appearing exactly as they did when I first got them. 

I do not want to set up a CO 2 system, so what can I do to get the best growth? I just added a couple of new plants, a ludwigia and a nesaea plant. Both are supposed to be less hardy then the ones I had, so I want to start getting some fertilizers or whatever to keep them from dying off. I have eco-complete as my substrate, havent used any ferts yet. The light I am using that came with the tank is an aqueon 8000K full spectrum daylight. 32 W, T8 model. 

I have heard you need to balance everything out, so without CO2 you shouldnt get too bright of a light, but maybe I should still go a little brighter? Any advice for the best possible plnat growth would be greatly appreciated.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Hello Deng...

My low to moderate light plants grow very well with no CO2 and a couple of 
T5 28 watt bulbs. I have a lot of fish in my tanks and feed them a balanced diet, so they provide most of the fertilizer the plants need.

I also give my plants some liquid containing the "trace elements". I dose it a couple of times a week either when I need to top off the tanks or when I do my water changes.

I've found if I keep to the less demanding plants, CO2 isn't necessary and for the most part, the ferts the fish produce is all the plants need.

Keep in mind, it takes weeks for some plants to get used to new water conditions. You will see much of the plant die back and then new growth will start, so just be patient.

B


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

I have great success with both Val and Java Fern. Val seems to do best with with high ph water while Java Fern doesn't seem to care much about ph. Both plants like lots of light and Val will slowly die without enough light. Keep in mind that Val needs to be rooted while Java Fern prospers either rooted or drifting.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

1) A couple root tabs will go a long way.
2) I don't see what size your tank is, this is relevant to the lighting you have.
3) A touch more light may help, but lets make sure we understand everything else first.
4) There are a ton of really nice planted tanks out there with no CO2, so don't feel the need to do that. CO2 is a tool, but one that isn't needed in most cases. I have one CO2 tank, but my other five have no CO2, and I'm happy with them. My non CO2 tanks just have different plants, or grow slower.


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

Whoops sorry about that. My tank is 55 gallons. I am guessing I may need more light. I only have the one 48 inch long light. 

Also I have heard flourish or flourish excel are pretty good supplements. Any thoughts on these two? Is there something better maybe?


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Deng09 said:


> Whoops sorry about that. My tank is 55 gallons. I am guessing I may need more light. I only have the one 48 inch long light.
> 
> Also I have heard flourish or flourish excel are pretty good supplements. Any thoughts on these two? Is there something better maybe?


Hello again...

I have several 55 Gs. I use two 48 inch, T5s in each. The Seachem ferts are good, but pricey if you dose more than one tank. The Excel has a carbon that some of the ferns, Vallisneria and mosses don't tolerate. At least my plants didn't like it.

I like hydroponics liquids. They're good and inexpensive. I buy it by the gallon for $30.00 and it lasts 6 months, but I dose five tanks a couple of times a week with it.

Just a suggestion, though. As with everything else, you have to make your way through all the different info. and make your choice.

B


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You need more light for sure and can even go up to 3 32W T8 bulbs with no issue using a little light control. 

If you go to aquariumfertilizer.com and look for their micro/macro mix it has everything your plants need, to include trace elements, cost only $12 and will likely lasts you 3-4 yrs with just that one tank. If you end up with 3 lights, I would recommend it.

Less light, less requirement to feed the plants more than what they get naturally. More light, more need to do so. The higher light makes the plants grow faster and it will need the supplements while this is occurring.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

With one more T8 bulb you could probably get away with minimal or no liquid fertilizers and still have good results with just some root tabs. Two more (3 total) might require a bit more. In addition to melting vals and some crypts Excel will do you no good in a low light tank, although some micro/macro ferts might.
I would avoid putting more than 3x T8 bulbs over that as you may end up in a situation that *requires* routine fertilization to keep the plants healthy and algae free rather than just benefiting from it.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Deng09 said:


> Whoops sorry about that. My tank is 55 gallons. I am guessing I may need more light. I only have the one 48 inch long light.
> 
> Also I have heard flourish or flourish excel are pretty good supplements. Any thoughts on these two? Is there something better maybe?


Deng...

If your aim is a simple, low maintenance tank, then go with Java fern, Anubias, some of the lower light Cryptocoryne and a taller variety of Amazon Sword for the bottom of the tank and float some Water wisteria, Anacharis and Pennywort.

All you'll need is a couple of 48 inch T5, 10000K bulbs and you're good to go. Just change out half the tank water weekly and dose a good liquid plant supplement like Yamato Green when you do your water change.

Doesn't get much simpler than this.

Just a thought, though.

B


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Lol BB, as if something posted by someone other than you was more than...simple. You have your opinion and so does everyone else. You crack me up with how defensive you get. Are you so sensitive?


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Lol BB, as if something posted by someone other than you was more than...simple. You have your opinion and so does everyone else. You crack me up with how defensive you get. Are you so sensitive?


Hello Shipmate...

Nah. Don't think so. But, never been tested. Do they test for stuff like that? Just like to toss ideas out here on the forum if I get a "brainstorm". Maybe an idea will jog someone's memory or something. Actually, I thought it might be a way to "think a little outside the box. Kind of like my biotope, terraphyte tanks, I guess.

Anyway, I think my tanks are moving in a different direction and so I'm not seeing much to comment on, kind of reaching a little. Oh well, I'll keep looking in on things here.

B


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I definitely need more light. Right now I have a hood with just the one light that perfectly fits the top of the tank, so im guessing getting more lights would require me to get rid of that. 

Also I have noticed that fixtures and bulbs from walmart type stores are about 5-10x cheaper than the ones at fish stores. Will these lights be ok?


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

You could add another single bulb T8 hood, or if you're handy, possibly add a bulb to your current setup. Shop lights are fine, but be aware that the ballast probably sucks and will burn out in a couple years. Ballasts are replaceable, but you have to be comfortable swapping a couple wires.


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

Ok, I just picked up this bad boy: Current USA Nova Extreme 2xT5HO - Freshwater Light Aquarium T-5 HO Light Fixtures

I now have 108w over my 55 gallon tank. Your opinions on the best dosing methods for this situation? As of now the only extra thing for the plants I have is the eco complete substrate. Would it still be wise to get root tabs in addition to this? And if anyone has a specific fertilzer in mind that would be very helpful. The micro/macro mix recommended by jrman looks good, but some of the reviews say it is complicated to measure out the proper dosage? IDK, I have never dosed anything before so any guidelines for a newbie would be great. Thanks for all your help guys.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

That goes way beyond the one extra light. You're probably going to need to keep that light several (as in 6-12) inches above your tank to prevent the need for CO2. Definitely get some fertilizers. Remember that eco complete provides good CEC (which is very helpful), but does not directly provide any nutrients to plants, contrary to what the advertising says.
Measuring ferts is *really* easy. Buy one of those 7 day pill containers ($1-3 at a pharmacy) and some tiny measuring spoons (as in 1/4 tsp for the big one) from Amazon ($8-15), and just measure everything once per week while you are doing your water change.


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

Everything I was reading/being told said I needed 1.5-2 watts per gallon. This puts me at 1.96 watts per gallon. At the high end, but they were saying I wouldn't definitely need CO2 until I got around 2.5-3 or more. Maybe you could give a brief explanation on what the negative side effects will be if this is too much light? And do you have a recommendation on the type of ferts I should use? Thanks for your input!!


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

NeonShark666 said:


> I have great success with both Val and Java Fern. Val seems to do best with with high ph water while Java Fern doesn't seem to care much about ph. Both plants like lots of light and Val will slowly die without enough light. Keep in mind that Val needs to be rooted while Java Fern prospers either rooted or drifting.


Do not plant that java fern's rhyzome in the substrate..you will kill it..attach it to driftwood or a rock 

Rick


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Watts per gallon is a terrible awful rule that means pretty much nothing. As a few examples, a standard 75 gallon tank requires nearly the exact same lighting as a 55. A 20 tall takes much more light than a 20 long. A 29 takes a similar amount of light as a 20 tall. A 32 watt T8 puts out more light than a 40 watt T12.
I have 2x T5HO bulbs with a crummy reflector raised ~4 inches over my 75 gallon tank. I use a lot of CO2 and dry ferts along with root tabs and some clay...and I still have algae issues consistent with excess lighting.
I recommend starting with the lights ~8-12 inches over the tank. You'll have more than enough light to grow 95% of the stuff in the hobby. If your plants are healthy and you don't have algae issues, lower them an inch per month until you find you have a growing algae problem. Remember that most positive changes take ~2 weeks to show in your plants.

Too much light gives you:
BBA.
Plants with twisted leaves
Plants with holes in the leaves
Stunted plants (yes, really)
Some fish prefer dimmer lights.
Dead plants if nutrients (including CO2) are insufficient.
Did I mention the algae?

Low light is easy.
Medium light at the lower end is pretty easy.
Medium light at the higher end gets hard.
High light is a delicate balance in most cases.

In my low light tank I see no symptoms when I have a problem if I change the water at least monthly (I usually do 50% weekly).
In my medium light tanks if I have a problem it takes 1-2 weeks to become an issue that needs to be dealt with.
In my high light tank I can get an algae bloom in less than 24 hours if I screw something up. As an example, if I do a large water change and either have my CO2 run out, or don't have any KH2PO4 to put in I'll have a wall covered in GDA in under 2 days. The good news is that it's easy to treat (CO2 up, add phosphates), but it makes a good example.


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## i4yue (Jul 5, 2010)

substrate gold here
Amazon.com: Seachem Flourish Tabs 40 Count: Pet Supplies

cheap lights that work well for the price
Aquarium Lighting - Guaranteed Best Prices Online!

dont fall for all the co2 hype, maximizing all your other things such as water column nutrients, substrate nutrients, and lighting should come first before the expensive co2 injection


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Deng09 said:


> Everything I was reading/being told said I needed 1.5-2 watts per gallon. This puts me at 1.96 watts per gallon. At the high end, but they were saying I wouldn't definitely need CO2 until I got around 2.5-3 or more. Maybe you could give a brief explanation on what the negative side effects will be if this is too much light? And do you have a recommendation on the type of ferts I should use? Thanks for your input!!


The reason why WPG doesn't work for T5HO setups is most T5HO fixtures come with their own reflectors per bulb to maximize lighting effectiveness. This process can effectively give you 2-3 times more light than what the bulbs are rated at - depending on the quality of the reflector.

That light just a few inches above the tank, I would say you are probably at the point you'll need CO2 to have less of a time fighting algae issues. You'll also for sure need to be dosing with ferts of some type. Dry ferts are much cheaper and I would recommend those.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

i4yue said:


> substrate gold here
> Amazon.com: Seachem Flourish Tabs 40 Count: Pet Supplies
> 
> cheap lights that work well for the price
> ...


The original poster (OP) already mentioned having Eco-complete as their substrate, which is more than adequate, and a link to the light they purchased is a few posts above.

Light and CO2 are the two most imporatnt things that a plant needs. When you drive up the amonut of light, it also drives up the need for CO2. If CO2 is not there, all the while the plant is being driven by the higher light, the plant can end up suffering or dying. Doesn't sound possible with a bunch of light on the tank, but it does occur. This is the same reason you would need to start column dosing with ferts with a higher light.

Hype? Not really. Can this person go without CO2? Maybe. If the OP used a 5hr lighting period per day maybe it wouldn't be too bad. As always, time will tell.


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

Welp, I have had the new light on the tank for bout 3 or 4 days now, and so far so good. 

My anubias barteri had grown 4 new leaves in the 2.5 months before the light, and has already grown one new leaf with a second one starting to sprout in the 3 days of new light. My anubias congensis had grown 2 new leaves in 2.5 months, already grew 1 new one in 3 days. Apongoten crispus had lost 2 leaves and gained 2 others in 2.5 months, already a new one is sprouting out in the first 3 days. My ludwigia peruensis had lost all of the leaves from the bottom 2/3 of the stem in the 2 weeks I had it before. Now I see little buds coming out on the lower stem, so that's a good sign. Thought that one might be totally about to die, but it's coming back a bit. The Amazon sword and java ferns still aren't doing anything, but I've got time. 

Also no algea problems yet either. Based on your guys advice that algae could become a problem, I scrubbed every spec of algae off the glass (there was a ton on the back wall I hadn't cleaned in a while) and so far just a spec here or there has grown back. It also looks like most of the brown algae that had started to cover my anubias leaves has died off? They look much much clearer than they did a few days ago. Not sure if this can be attributed to the light, but either way I will take it. 

As for going forward. It seems there is conflicting advice here on whether I should add root tabs or not. Anyone want to give a final answer on that question? I was also thinking about trying a product called API CO2 booster? Anyone ever tried it? Maybe I should just go to some sort of fert? I am still currently adding no ferts, so I think I need to get going on that ASAP. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Make sure your plants are still doing well in 3-4 weeks. Often when increasing light it takes a while for the plants to run out their internal stores of a particular nutrient. If the plants still have healthy growth in a month and aren't showing holes you're probably ok.


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## jbrianchamberlin (Aug 31, 2009)

I've always been confused by the lighting issue. Then again, I'm the kind of guy who reads a ton about set ups, does the set up, and then forgets everything he learned a year ago. I've had my tank going for a couple of years now and I've got a 75 gallon tank with the t5 glo 54x 2 54 watt lights. I've always been told that's high end. I use dry and wet ferts AND I just started C02. My plants look good.. haven't seen the crazy growth yet on some but then again, I just started C02 a couple of weeks ago.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

2X54W, T5HO on a 75g is higher end medium, not high. On a 55g, what the OP has, it may be different


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## jbrianchamberlin (Aug 31, 2009)

Any suggestions on how to increase this? I thought the t5 was the highest... or is it t8? The two confuse me.


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## i4yue (Jul 5, 2010)

jbrianchamberlin said:


> Any suggestions on how to increase this? I thought the t5 was the highest... or is it t8? The two confuse me.


from lowest efficiency to highest

t12 < t8 < t5 < t5ho < t5vho

ho = high output
vho = very high output

reflectors also play a vital roll in lighting


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Forget VHO.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

jbrianchamberlin said:


> Any suggestions on how to increase this? I thought the t5 was the highest... or is it t8? The two confuse me.


You want to increase the lighting over a 2X54W T5HO fixture? T5 bulbs put out slightly more light than a T8. The T5 bulbs are 5/8" in diameter and the T8s are 8/8" or 1".


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## jbrianchamberlin (Aug 31, 2009)

Well yeah I'd like to increase the lights now that I've added C02. I just don't want to buy a 2nd light fixture as I think it would look crappy on top of the tank. I just bought new bulbs. Realized in 2 years I've never replaced them.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

jbrianchamberlin said:


> Well yeah I'd like to increase the lights now that I've added C02. I just don't want to buy a 2nd light fixture as I think it would look crappy on top of the tank. I just bought new bulbs. Realized in 2 years I've never replaced them.


I responded in your other thread. Now that you added CO2, what plant have you tried that you weren't able to grow? Find that point and I can guarantee you it wont be from a lack of light, barring anything wrong with the fixture. It will be caused from something else.


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## jbrianchamberlin (Aug 31, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> I responded in your other thread. Now that you added CO2, what plant have you tried that you weren't able to grow? Find that point and I can guarantee you it wont be from a lack of light, barring anything wrong with the fixture. It will be caused from something else.


I haven't NOT been able to get anything to grow. I just want to make sure all the C02 I'm adding and the rest of my efforts aren't in vain. My plants seem to be growing well. I'm trying some micro sword as foreground cover and I know to grow it plush and thick will need a lot of light.


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## Deng09 (Apr 28, 2012)

I need a good ground cover plant as well. I tried microsword and it got ripped out and the fish ate all the roots. Left the grass part though...

BTW, do java ferns do better attached to drift wood as opposed to just free floating? I have a piece of driftwood soaking right now but I dont think its ready yet. My java ferns have not done anything at all in my tank except turn brown.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, you can get more light. You can always get a 3 or 4 bulb fixture. You should be able to grow baby tears (HC) with that light and CO2 and it stays no more than 1" above the substrate. I think it is a big mistake and high light certainly isn't for the novice. Make sure you have a drop checker and 4dkh solution as you will need to push your CO2 pretty hard while the light is on. Your tank though.


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