# Some pump and flow questions



## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

I am getting all of the stuff put together for our fist mixed reef tank. I am confused on flow needed, pumps ect. Some people want to recommend a pump rated for gallon size of aquarium, some for 10x the flo of gallon size, and some 20. Some take into head and some do not. This tank is going to be 65g 24" tall with a 20g sump holding ~ 15g. So aprox 85g gross water volume not actual amount of water. I have looked at a few pumps but am leaning towards lifeguard aquatics 4000 or 5000 based on who seems to know what they are talking about. I will have about 4' of head possibly 5' the 4000 is rated 712-621 at those levels the 5000 is rated at 1129-1041 respectively. Their website says they are rated at 248 and 350g size tanks! The 2200 rated at 594 GPH would be the pump I would buy based solely on aquarium size.
I assume 2 power heads will be enough but not sure how big to go on those either.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Flow rate is based on Reef or FOWLR. So, 10x your tank volume for FOWLR, and 20x+ for a Reef tank.
Your return pump would only be based off what your Overflow is rated at, nothing more. If you have a 600gph overflow, you will need a return pump rated higher - head loss. Not hard to determine as they are marked on pumps.
2 Poweheads on each end of the tank is what most have, this creates random flow, as the water crashes into each other in the center. These powerheads are based off DT volume. So if you have a 65g tank, 2 400gph Powerheads would work great for a FOWLR, and 2 750gph Powerheads would work for a Reef.


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## RareLiveCorals (Dec 16, 2011)

Please scratch all of that and lets start from the beginning if you want to do this right... so you have a 65 gallon reef. The first thing to know is that you want to turn over a reef 30 times an hour minimum. You want to make sure that the majority of this is turning through your filter. so for starters we need to know what the pipe size for you overflow drains are. size and how many? then we can talk about how you can acquire all of your flow and the proper way to do it.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

RareLiveCorals said:


> Please scratch all of that and lets start from the beginning if you want to do this right... so you have a 65 gallon reef. The first thing to know is that you want to turn over a reef 30 times an hour minimum. You want to make sure that the majority of this is turning through your filter. so for starters we need to know what the pipe size for you overflow drains are. size and how many? then we can talk about how you can acquire all of your flow and the proper way to do it.


Sorry your not a sponsor here, unless you become a sponsor don't post links to your site.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Well my overflows/drains can be whatever I want. I was planning on 2 1" drains so that would allow up to 1200GPH max. I am planning on drilling my tank myself. So I can make them bigger if need be, I havent bought anything yet, except for the 20 gallon tank I am going to make into a sump/fuge. I want to only buy the stuff once.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

seems to be a little controversy.RLC; thirty times 65 is mostly unachievable without 3 or more overflows(and a little on the high side).RM offers sound advice achievable by most not going to public aquaria levels.The power heads offer the motion necessary to move most debris into the average overflow(600 gph).The pump should be oversized and "throttled down" if necessary .90 & 45 degree elbows count as 1 foot of head also.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

http://www.melevsreef.com/make_a_sump.html
Melevsreef.com | Acrylic Sumps & Refugiums

Doesn't get any better than this read.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Its really about you and what you have. LPS coral need less flow than SPS. Take that into account. You need at least 20x. Its best to have randomized flow so more powerheads at lower gph is a bit better but id still add one high gph. In my 75g mixed, I have one 1200gph koralia, one 400gph koralia, a HOB filter with about 200gph, and a skimmer at about 200gph. My flow is pretty good and all my corals do well. You can have both high and low flow corals if you set your paths right. I have high flow over the top of the rock and lower flow on the bottom. You do take into account the flow from your sump but do not base your calculations on total water volume of the system, just of the main tank.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks. I might up size my drains a little then, go 1 1/4" or so. I definatly don't want more than 3 holes in the tank, two for drains and one for the return. That way I can get my flow up over 1200gph while keeping my tank clean looking and corals happy!
Thanks for those articles Reefingmadness I had not seen the top one on melevreefs and the first choice on there was how I was planning to go. Skimmer-->refugium--->return That direction just made the most sence to me.. I thought in the last bubble trap area it would also give you a place to put some different kinds of "media" if need be. Just to clarify when talking flow on volume are you talking display tank only or tank and sump volume? That could be a pretty large difference.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

phys said:


> Its really about you and what you have. LPS coral need less flow than SPS. Take that into account. You need at least 20x. Its best to have randomized flow so more powerheads at lower gph is a bit better but id still add one high gph. In my 75g mixed, I have one 1200gph koralia, one 400gph koralia, a HOB filter with about 200gph, and a skimmer at about 200gph. My flow is pretty good and all my corals do well. You can have both high and low flow corals if you set your paths right. I have high flow over the top of the rock and lower flow on the bottom. You do take into account the flow from your sump but do not base your calculations on total water volume of the system, just of the main tank.


Yea I am just learning differnt corals need different flows. Right now I know very little about what kind of corals we want... just some cool one haha.
I guess it makes sense to me know for flow you only take into account the flow through the display tank since that is where everything is.


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## RareLiveCorals (Dec 16, 2011)

Your logic is all wrong, high flow and low flow corals has only to do with placement within your aquarium. there are places that water is flowing heavy and areas where it is flowing slower. The turn over rate has to do with how your aquarium is being filtered. If you have a low flow tank you are just limiting your filtration. Rock design and water flow design will dictate where and what corals to place. A reef aquarium and fish only aquarium requires the same flow regardless. The ocean moves water in and out consistently regardless of fish and coral. A 1" drain can actually handle 700gph max. My recommendation would be to use 2, 1.5" drains regardless of your flow. why worry about maxing it out. The larger the drain per water flow the quieter it will be going down. You have 2 choices. You could take the pet store advice or the advice of a custom aquarium designer and manufacturer. If you would like I will further help you, just let me know.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

RareLiveCorals said:


> You have 2 choices. You could take the pet store advice or the advice of a custom aquarium designer and manufacturer. If you would like I will further help you, just let me know.


Making friends by the minute.Did I forget to welcome you?No I didn't forget!


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

RareLiveCorals said:


> Your logic is all wrong, high flow and low flow corals has only to do with placement within your aquarium. there are places that water is flowing heavy and areas where it is flowing slower. The turn over rate has to do with how your aquarium is being filtered. If you have a low flow tank you are just limiting your filtration. Rock design and water flow design will dictate where and what corals to place. A reef aquarium and fish only aquarium requires the same flow regardless. The ocean moves water in and out consistently regardless of fish and coral. A 1" drain can actually handle 700gph max. My recommendation would be to use 2, 1.5" drains regardless of your flow. why worry about maxing it out. The larger the drain per water flow the quieter it will be going down. You have 2 choices. You could take the pet store advice or the advice of a custom aquarium designer and manufacturer. If you would like I will further help you, just let me know.


All I have to say is:









Must be custom destroyed tanks. Or lets see how much we can get outta this customer Aquatics Design. Aye....


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

keep looking for pumps and a bank to get a loan from;it would seem accorging to the expert you'll need a pump that pushes in excess of 2000 gph to accommodate head(for a 65 gallon aquarium).He 'll probably sell you the chiller you'll need also to cool the tank from the heat generated from such pump.I must be doing it all wrong(for the last 30 years).


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

RareLiveCorals said:


> Your logic is all wrong, high flow and low flow corals has only to do with placement within your aquarium. there are places that water is flowing heavy and areas where it is flowing slower. The turn over rate has to do with how your aquarium is being filtered. A 1" drain can actually handle 700gph max. My recommendation would be to use 2, 1.5" drains regardless of your flow. why worry about maxing it out. The larger the drain per water flow the quieter it will be going down. You have 2 choices. You could take the pet store advice or the advice of a custom aquarium designer and manufacturer. If you would like I will further help you, just let me know.


I got it on the coral placement you just explained good..Thanks 
So is a 3/4" to 1" line on the return still plenty since you are returning it to the tank under pressure?
I definatly only want to attemp to drill the tank once!
So if my returns can handle over 1300+ I should shoot for a pump that can deliver at least 1300gpm on a 65g DT? That would be 20X and idealy a bit higher...right?


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Haha. This is good. Just so every one here knows I read all the posts and and weigh the information given. I know some have tons of experince! I am also old enough to understand there might be just possible more than one right way to do things. The pump deal is a big one though. I shure dont want to have to buy more than one pump since this is going to be the smaller of the two tanks I am planning. 
In another thread I said my original plan was to have dual 1" drains at max that would give me 1200-1400gpm personally I think 1400 would be hard to achieve on gravity only without a lage amount of waterweight behind it. I have about a month to get the stuff rounded up for this project as its main purpose is a Chrismas project for me and my two boys. So keep the comments coming! I am not an impulse buyer...sometimes I do over reaserch it though and get more confused! haha Also keep in mind one of my main goals is to have this pretty low maintinence once fully established.
Thanks....all of you!


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

RareLiveCorals said:


> Your logic is all wrong, high flow and low flow corals has only to do with placement within your aquarium. there are places that water is flowing heavy and areas where it is flowing slower. The turn over rate has to do with how your aquarium is being filtered. If you have a low flow tank you are just limiting your filtration. Rock design and water flow design will dictate where and what corals to place. A reef aquarium and fish only aquarium requires the same flow regardless. The ocean moves water in and out consistently regardless of fish and coral. A 1" drain can actually handle 700gph max. My recommendation would be to use 2, 1.5" drains regardless of your flow. why worry about maxing it out. The larger the drain per water flow the quieter it will be going down. You have 2 choices. You could take the pet store advice or the advice of a custom aquarium designer and manufacturer. If you would like I will further help you, just let me know.


Little bit more reading on your part, or alittle more experience in the field I think, before I would let you advise anyone on setting up a SW tank. Just can't believe what you got going on here.
2 1.5" drains going to a 20g Sump....REALLY???? Don't you think that a bit excessive for a 20g???? I've got a 35g and only have 900gph going to it..... Thats not the kinda flow thats even close to being maybe ok, thats just NUTS.

Oh forgot something.... Your not gaining any points here by guessing, or I should say looking up Wikiup stuff and throwing your own spin on it.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I agree there is always more than one way to achieve a goal(skin a cat).Being this is your smaller of planned setups and probably not something you want to invest a lot of time on I think 15-20 times turn over is more than adquate.I am a skeptic of the industry so as hypocritical as it sounds would wonder why"reef ready" tanks all use 1"bulkheads to feed.My 180 has 2 and I have read links to why reef ready tanks supposedly don't cut it by those who would say you can always add more "syphon" overflows(2,3,4) to support higher flow rates.They fail to mention how easliy they fail.I see no harm(seems reasonable even) in providing yourself with larger holes(for larger bulkhead{BRS:bulk reef supply sells drill bits and bulk heads to match for reasonable price}) and 2 1 1/4 or ;larger would be great,but a pump that pushes much more than 1500 gph will throw heat to your tank/or be seriously expensive.I've aggrevated RLC already so I might as well add that figuring 700gph for1" pvc is maxing it and a "true pro" wouldn't use max numbers as other factors always come into play and adversely affect the outcome.(most links say 1" flows 600gph,possibly not 100% accurate but if there is an error to be figured, please figure it in your favor.)


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Reefkeeping 101 – Sumps! by Marc Levenson - Reefkeeping.com


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Reefing Madness said:


> .
> 2 1.5" drains going to a 20g Sump....REALLY???? Don't you think that a bit excessive for a 20g???? I've got a 35g and only have 900gph going to it..... Thats not the kinda flow thats even close to being maybe ok, thats just NUTS.


After a little more pondering I don't think I will go that big, but in my mind why would it mater? I mean your drains are really only going to retun a max of what your return pump can flow regardless of size..right? I mean theoretically you could have 4" holes and a 300GPH pump and it is only going to drain down to your overflow right? Now maybe there is some unforseen problem I am overlooking down in the sump? I mean no doubt that is a lot of water moving through that small area. I don't want to have something that is way overkill and going to give me problems. My past experience does not involve this kind of set up at all. It was all undergravel filters and powerheads, HOB filters back then.
Thanks Reefingmadness I have learned alot from you since I have found this forrum and you coralbandit.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> I agree there is always more than one way to achieve a goal(skin a cat).Being this is your smaller of planned setups and probably not something you want to invest a lot of time on I think 15-20 times turn over is more than adquate.I am a skeptic of the industry so as hypocritical as it sounds would wonder why"reef ready" tanks all use 1"bulkheads to feed.My 180 has 2 and I have read links to why reef ready tanks supposedly don't cut it by those who would say you can always add more "syphon" overflows(2,3,4) to support higher flow rates.They fail to mention how easliy they fail.I see no harm(seems reasonable even) in providing yourself with larger holes(for larger bulkhead{BRS:bulk reef supply sells drill bits and bulk heads to match for reasonable price}) and 2 1 1/4 or ;larger would be great,but a pump that pushes much more than 1500 gph will throw heat to your tank/or be seriously expensive.I've aggrevated RLC already so I might as well add that figuring 700gph for1" pvc is maxing it and a "true pro" wouldn't use max numbers as other factors always come into play and adversely affect the outcome.(most links say 1" flows 600gph,possibly not 100% accurate but if there is an error to be figured, please figure it in your favor.)


Makes sense to me! If I do go bigger than 1" it looks like I will have to go to 1.5" bulk reef and amazon don't sell 1.25". I don't want to drop a fortune on a pump but nor do I want to have to upgrade due to animals not thriving! The big tank is going to be a FOWLR tank at least to start unless we seriously get addicted to coral!


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Drwoodchopper said:


> After a little more pondering I don't think I will go that big, but in my mind why would it mater? I mean your drains are really only going to retun a max of what your return pump can flow regardless of size..right? I mean theoretically you could have 4" holes and a 300GPH pump and it is only going to drain down to your overflow right?


Noise, unless you have the return pump matched up, water will get lower because of the intake side, but if your pump is undersized it takes time to refill those pipes. Unless you use a Herby or Bean Animal style pipe setup that is.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

you are correct also that regardless of how large holes are that they will only flow what return pump feeds them.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Reefing Madness said:


> Noise, unless you have the return pump matched up, water will get lower because of the intake side, but if your pump is undersized it takes time to refill those pipes. Unless you use a Herby or Bean Animal style pipe setup that is.


Ahh...noise. I have learned a few tricks to keep that down too, but that is a big consideratin since this tank will be in our living room and I want it as quiet as posible.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Drwoodchopper said:


> Ahh...noise. I have learned a few tricks to keep that down too, but that is a big consideratin since this tank will be in our living room and I want it as quiet as posible.


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

If you haven't seen this, I posted it in another thread, this is what I had in mind. Fast forward to 2:20 to get a good look at the skimmer bar. The only problem I forsaw at the beginning was posible algae build up but could be easily cleaned with a brush. And in another video he claims you only need 5" of the slit to have sufficient flow. It looks super simple and you would get a large surface area to pull water form.
65gal Reef Aquarium Project - Overflow and Sump Design (part 1) - YouTube


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## RareLiveCorals (Dec 16, 2011)

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This is one of my latest builds. There are 5 2" drains. Yes this is a bit overkill. I always go overkill, this way there is never a risk for water on the floor. What if a snail of a fish or just gunk get to the drain pipe. I always want excess pipe for water to flow. The more air to water going =down the pipe the less gurgling and regurgitation you will get. I designed and manufactured every component of this build from skimmer to acrylic tank to the plumbing calcium reactor etc. The industry uses 1" overflows as a standard reef ready becuase number #1 they don't know any better. and #2 the glass is poored that way. They do not drill there tanks. The cost to change the way these standard mass produced tanks would be very heavy and would create massive cost increases to you the purchasers. I have no reason to fight. I only look to educate. I get paid a hefty price to design and build these custom tanks. I am only looking to lend my advice. If you think overkill is bad, then you are entitled to continue to have the many problems people have with the standard equipment. OH by the way there is no chiller on this system!!!


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## Drwoodchopper (Nov 18, 2012)

Very interesting and unique build you have there! I am a decent plumber but that just looks like a lot of work, but you did a clean job.


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