# Ots



## PapaM (Jul 10, 2011)

I know what new tank syndrome is, but what is old tank syndrome?


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## Nitlon (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't know how other people define it, but my experience (both personal and from research) is basically when a long-established tank takes a very long, very slow turn for the worse. The nutrient, nitrate, and even ammonia levels can climb so slowly that the fish which already live in the tank don't show any adverse effects. I know someone who kept platies in a 20-gallon tank which went for months at a time without a water change, and her "feeding" of it consisted of dumping one of those vacation feeder blocks in and waiting for it to rot - but she'd let it get to that state so slowly that the fish inside seemed perfectly happy.

We usually discover OTS when we try to add new fish to the old system and find that they're mysteriously dying, even though the fish we already have in there seem perfectly happy because they'd been acclimated to deteriorating water conditions over a period of months. 

I guess the definition could also extend to the state of the equipment - you know, filters getting encrusted with salt creep, algae building up in those hard-to-reach places, or in extreme cases hypoxic zones forming deep underneath the gravel where it doesn't get enough aeration.

Check this out for more (/probably better) info: Old Tank Syndrome in the aquarium, What is it, and what do we do about it?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Ive never heard of OTS until now.I guess you do learn something new every day(I feel like Im echoing Holly from a post of olde)

Oh and Hannah,I love your pic!I guess you would know what I mean when I yell........ MAIDEN!!!


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## Nitlon (Jul 10, 2011)

majerah1 said:


> Oh and Hannah,I love your pic!I guess you would know what I mean when I yell........ MAIDEN!!!


Oh yes..."MAIDEN!!! <sub>...what does that mean?</sub>"
(Sorry to get off-topic)


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Lol, Maj!! I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

PapaM said:


> I know what new tank syndrome is, but what is old tank syndrome?


+1

Or perhaps that's when someone my age has a tank? *old dude


IMHO what happens is there are many things that can be solved for a year or two but will degrate the system over years and years.

My emphasis is balancing out and stabilizing operation to that things remain at healthy levels and when things go "bump in the night" the tank itself makes necessary corrections.

For example consider water changes to maintain something (ammonia, phosphate, nitrates, calcium, carbonate, magnesium, phosphates, or whatever). Plus that thing is changing at some rate. And is contained in the water you use to replace the tank water. And that you change a certain percentage of the water at some time interval. What is the value of that "thing" when the amount before each water change is the same water change to water change? (and assume the concentration is measured in "linear" units like ppm or whatever).


Ans:


amount before water change=(thng change between water changes)/(fraction of water change)
_________________________+amount in replacement water.

For instance assume you are changing 5% (1/20) of the water every week, say "the thing" increases at 7 per week, and the replacement water has 20ppm of "thing"

before each water chang=(7ppm)/(1/20)+20=140+20+160ppm

But by using plant life for say nitrates, nitrates are just consumed and unmeasureable.

So what you need to do IMHO is not rely on filtration and water changes but have the tank consume things like ammonia, nitrItes, nitrates, phosphates, carbon dioxide and buffer (add) consumables like calcium, magnesium, carbonate, minor nutrients like iron and so on.


If you rely in filters and water changes things may go fine for a few years then start degrading.

my .02


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## Rohkey (Apr 25, 2011)

From my understanding of it, it's when a tank has been going for quite some time and over this long period of time harmful substances have built up in the tank (sometimes high nitrates). The owner doesn't completely neglect the tank but everything has been working fine so there's been no need to do any extra work regarding the tank. Water changes are still performed and filter media are still replaces/washed, but not as frequently as before. The fish are properly fed but not as much care is made to make sure excess food is cleaned up, and that overfeeding is not occurring. In short, the owner is not as careful as before since the initial interest in the tank has dwindled.

The fish have had a long time to adapt to these harsher conditions and are fine. Sometimes they die but this is attributed to their age. However the problem arises when new fish are added to replace these old fish, they quickly perish despite a seemingly healthy environment. 

Ways of combating this are to keep up on schedules water changes and general maintenance. Gravel vacs are important, making sure filter media are in good shape, not leaving decaying matter in the tank, etc etc. is a good start. Also replacing filters and other hardware (lights, pumps, airlines, heaters) every year or so is a good idea, as is a general cleaning of the hood and the like. It's difficult to do this because it's only natural for someone to not be as excited about something as when it's new, so naturally less energy and time will be put into it.


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## PapaM (Jul 10, 2011)

Bealsbob,

That went over this newby head faster than a speeding bullet. I think you said it's possible to achieve a tank that takes care of itself. Yes????


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

PapaM said:


> Bealsbob,
> 
> That went over this newby head faster than a speeding bullet. I think you said it's possible to achieve a tank that takes care of itself. Yes????


yeppers. 

Well more or less anyway *old dude

IMHO an aweful lot of what we do is just to make the tank "pretty" to us humans. And don't get me wrong that is very important. But to me we tend to do something to say get rid of the algae and that action creates some imbalance which degrades the tank. then we have to do another thing and so on and so on. All the while relying on mechanical equipment that itself is subject to failure. So more maintenance, more complexity, more expense and so on.

Meanwhile back at the beaslbob ranch, I have had Fw tank for up to 9 years with no water changes, no mechanical filters, descendants from the original fish and didn't even clean the glass for 3 years. On the marine side I did have to dose clacium/carbonate, magnesium and some iron. But still no water changes, just a wastbasket full of crushed oyster shells for a filter, tap water, and home depot type shop lights. Fish and corals lived in that tank for 5 years or so.

So totally balanced out with the tank completely taking care of itself.


no.

but we can get to the place where the tank runs for years with very little maintainence.

my .02


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## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

You should post pictures of your tanks, beaslbob


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Pigeonfish said:


> You should post pictures of your tanks, beaslbob


I have a few on photobucket but cannot access that from work.

So will have to wait until I get home.

meanwhile here is a thread I started with some references:



http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/beaslbob-builds-reference-10056.html

Looking up a photo bucket I posted here the link is:

.photobucket.com/albums/rr284/beaslebob

So perhaps you could go there and look for beaslebob album.

Or perhaps that won't work. *old dude

my .02


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## PapaM (Jul 10, 2011)

Bealsbob,

How does the water stay fresh? Maybe from adding tap water as the water in the tank evaporates? It seems to my limited amount of knowledge that it's a delicate balancing act between # of fish, # of plants, amount of water, amount of food, amount of substrate,etc. I find it all interesting though. I'm so new to the aquarium hobby that I really have no firm beliefs on which philosophy (if any) are correct.
Casey


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

PapaM said:


> Bealsbob,
> 
> How does the water stay fresh? Maybe from adding tap water as the water in the tank evaporates? It seems to my limited amount of knowledge that it's a delicate balancing act between # of fish, # of plants, amount of water, amount of food, amount of substrate,etc. I find it all interesting though. I'm so new to the aquarium hobby that I really have no firm beliefs on which philosophy (if any) are correct.
> Casey


The water stays fresh just like all the freshwater on earth. the plants keep it fresh.

the balancing ace is not all that delicate. With plenty of plants More fish just make the plants grow faster and vice versa.


my .02


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## PapaM (Jul 10, 2011)

Freshwater on earth though runs to the sea and is replenished by rain water, a constant cycle of flushing out waste and other pollutants, whereas in an aquarium, doesn't it basically sit in a stagnate condition?


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

That's what I thought.... but I think the plants eat the ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate from the fish and snails, which keeps it clean.... Bealsbob, correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Pigeonfish (Jun 23, 2011)

I'll use an example:

Kissimmee River would meander down all the way to the Everglades but it was then turned into a canal. The water showing up at the Everglades was less "fresh" The difference wasn't necessarily the flow of water. Here's the difference: The plants that would grow on the bottom and sides of Kissimmee River were destroyed and not replanted when creating the canal.

My point is that flow of water is not entirely needed to clean water. It's plants.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

PapaM said:


> Freshwater on earth though runs to the sea and is replenished by rain water, a constant cycle of flushing out waste and other pollutants, whereas in an aquarium, doesn't it basically sit in a stagnate condition?


that is a good point. And the evaporation and rain cycle should produce nice clean mountain streams.

But anything down stream of those needs plant life to consume animal (both land and aquatic) wastes or those things will continulusly build up in the water and atmosphere. 

To me it is the balance between animal and plant action that keeps things "fresh" even in the ocean. *old dude


my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

holly12 said:


> That's what I thought.... but I think the plants eat the ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate from the fish and snails, which keeps it clean.... Bealsbob, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yep.

but it is much more than just the ammonia/nitrate. It is also carbon dioxide, phosphates and so on. For instance, without plants the animals would not have oxygen in the atomosphere. And that atomosphere would be carbon dioxide. In fact I read the other day it was cyano bacteria that liberated oxygen from the (originally) carbon dioxide atmoshere a few years before I was born. *r2

my .02


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## PapaM (Jul 10, 2011)

It all makes sense to me now. Thanks!


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