# Ammonia Issues



## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I started a 40 gallon tank and had it up and running for 4 weeks. I've been testing the water daily with API's Master kit and have been logging my info. But it got to a point where the ammonia was SO bad that I had 1 puffer die and my Ghost Knife started changing color. So I pulled all the fish and added them to a 10 gallon tank (it was all I had) I drained the 40 gallon 90% and restarted the tank. Cleaning the filter mesh everyday because the tank got so clouldy from restarting. Its been 2 weeks since the restart, the water is clear, pH is 6.8 temp is 77, Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates are 5.0 ppm. My issue is the ammonia, it still comes back GREEN. At first it was off the charts over 8ppm. Now it's at 4 but I cant get the damn thing to drop any. I've added Tetra's AmmoniaSafe, SafeStart (beneficial bacteria) I've used API Ammo-Carb, AmmoChips, NOTHING is lowering the ammonia. I've even started a 13gallon bucket with a powerhead in it, mixing tap water thats been conditioned with Tetras AquaSafe Plus, and doing 10g water changes. 

At this point I'm open to any and all suggestions, as long as they are not, "drain and start over" If it comes to that I'm shutting it down.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

First thing, STOP adding chemicals to reduce ammonia. The chemicals will cause your cycling process to delay and get some screwed up readings. If you have high ammonia, do a water change to reduce. STOP huge water changes and any major filter cleaning.

If the ammonia is at 4ppm, do daily 50% water change to get to 1ppm or below. The only thing you should be doing until the cycling process is over with, is water changes. Anything else will just upset the process again. Do a water change if ammonia or nitrites is higher than 1ppm. Otherwise, leave it.

How many fish total are in the or were in the tank? Sounds like you started with too many, or too big of waste producers.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I started the tank with a single Ghost Knife a week later added 2 Figure 8 puffers and then the following week added 2 Red Zebra Cichlids and 3 Mini crabs. After adding the 2 Zebras and 3 crabs the tank went south. I know I added too many fish too quick and thats why I got a spike. But I was keeping a close eye on the parameters and doing my weekly water changes. 

At this point I have one crab back in the tank. I couldn't keep him in the 10 gallon with the other fish, he was nipping at there tails and fins. So I put him back in the 40g. I was also told by the LFS that when adding the AmmoSafe that it'll clear the water of ammonia but tests will still show until the filter does it's job. So should I not be over concerned with the readings just yet? Thanks for the help, Joe


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## LariM78 (Nov 2, 2010)

I would advise you to read up on the Nitrogen cycle. My first tank, I made the same mistakes and I ended up killing so many fish by adding too many too soon to an unproperly cycled tank. 

jrman is right, adding anything to reduce ammonia is not solving the problem, you need the bacteria to grow to break down the ammonia into Nitrite and then the Nitrite will get broken down into nitrates by other bacteria.

I'd say you are between a rock and a hard place. The best thing you can do if at all possible is to get some filter media from an established tank which has bacterial colonies in it. This is easier said than done but if you have any friends with aquariums you can perhaps get some from them or you can beg from your LFS. Even some gravel from an established aquarium will help. Obviously if you are going to do this make sure the tank you get it from is healthy or you could end up with disease problems - as I said you are between a rock and a hard place.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If Ammo-safe is also your dechlor continue to use it, otherwise stop. You should keep doing water changes until you get ammonia levels down to 1ppm or below. After that you could add in maybe 2 of the fish you had in there.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ammonia in a fish tank is the result of the decomposition of protein. You have no Nitrite reading, not posible during cycling. Make sure your Ammonia levels are correct by doing a backup test either with strips or taking a sample of your water to your TFS. None of the fish you have are tough enough for the cycling proccess, better are White Mountain Clouds or Danios. You should have plants in your tank, they help to temper ammonia levels. Make sure you have strong aeriation and filtration going on during cycling. Crabs and Brackish Water fishes (puffers) are particularly sensitive to Ammonia.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm running a AquaTop CF-300 canister system doing 264gph and I also have a Marineland powerhead that does 500gph so the tank has a great flow. I'll re-test in a few and post up the results. Thanks Joe


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The final phase (where ammonia starts to drop) can take a little while to show. It is possible to never see a trace of nitrites for a cycle. I never did on one of mine.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Temp: 77 
pH: 6.6
Ammonia: 4.0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 5.0

I read through and triple checked the instructions and I ran all tests correctly. So this is where my tank sits right now.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

joeyhatch11 said:


> Temp: 77
> pH: 6.6
> Ammonia: 4.0
> Nitrites: 0
> ...


low ph, high ammonia.

Put some (6-10 bunches) of anacharis in there and stop adding the chemicals.

Betcha the ammonia comes down and the pH up. Nitrates could initially bump up as well but that is not dangerous.


my .02


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I dont want a higher pH. I've been using API Proper pH 6.5. Was going to house Aspistogramma Cichlids in the tank and they require a lower pH. Pplus the LFS have a "neutral" system at 6.8.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

joeyhatch11 said:


> I dont want a higher pH. I've been using API Proper pH 6.5. Was going to house Aspistogramma Cichlids in the tank and they require a lower pH. Pplus the LFS have a "neutral" system at 6.8.


IMHO don't "chase" pH with chemicals.

My planted tank all have a pH of 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit) yet fish like neon tetras and silver hatchet fish reportedly "needing" a pH of under 7 thrive and live for years.

pH rises as co2 lowers. So to me a high pH because live plants have lowered co2 is not only not harmful to the fish but actually very healthy.

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Your adding fish that are a poor choice to cycle with and adding fish that need a bigger tank than what you have, and your choice of fish won't do any good for apistos. As long as you have these fish your tank will never be right no matter what you try.

Never use ph up or down products as they will cause a lot of fluctuations in the ph when the fish would be more than happy with a more stable ph.

The puffers and the crabs need brackish water, and with figure 8 puffers you should only keep 1 to a 40 gal and they will kill your other fish and eat the crabs.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

The cichlids and the puffer hang out in the tank together. An not once have I seen the them attack one another. The pH has been steady at 6.6 since I started the tank and even the small 10g how is stead at 6.6 and it's been like that for 2 weeks. The Figure 8 puffer's only get to be a make size of 3in and the apisto's are max size at 3 1/2, so having them together in my 40 breeder is not going to be a problem. Once all is said and done I think I'm going to keep the 4 fish I have and simply add one more puffer like I had befor and call it a day.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I agree with Susan - the puffers need brackish water or they will eventually die. And, they will become aggressive towards other fish... they tend to be a 'one fish only' fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Why is it you feel you need a ph value in that range? Your tanks sound like chemical cess pools. There is no need for any of them. You really should stop the ph product use. It will end up killing all of your fish if you don't watch it.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

joeyhatch11 said:


> The cichlids and the puffer hang out in the tank together. An not once have I seen the them attack one another. The pH has been steady at 6.6 since I started the tank and even the small 10g how is stead at 6.6 and it's been like that for 2 weeks. The Figure 8 puffer's only get to be a make size of 3in and the apisto's are max size at 3 1/2, so having them together in my 40 breeder is not going to be a problem. Once all is said and done I think I'm going to keep the 4 fish I have and simply add one more puffer like I had befor and call it a day.


So you just have puffers, crabs and cichlids left? I still don't think the mix is going to work. I think you are going to need to decide which fish you like best. It might work okay for a while but it seems to me there will be problems/ incompatibility down the line.

I kept F8 puffers and loved them. They are not as aggressive (in fact they are surprisingly prone to getting bullied) as many puffers but do have special requirements. They do need brackish water especially as they get older. Water should be hard with a high PH. They need a meaty diet with a large amount hard shelled material, or their beaks will overgrow, eventually making it impossible for them to eat. That usually means having a 5 gallon tank set up just to breed snails. Being brackish water and messy they need plenty of tank room. You could keep 3 comfortably in your tank. Some have kept them with tank mates. Sailfin Mollies can work quite well. Monos or Archers are perfect but need a much bigger tank. I found it hard to find suitable brackish water tank mates for a 40 gal tank, they either took chunks out of their tank mates or got bulled by them, which the hate so I gave up in the end and had just puffers. The puffer forum has very good information just about puffers.
The Puffer Forum • The Puffer Library III. The Figure Eight Puffer; Colorful, Comical, Compact Fish

I don't know much about zebra cichlids. I know they need also need hard water with high PH but are not brackish water fish as far as I know. Most Cichlids become aggressive when sexually mature which isn't going to mix with the F8s
Red Zebra, Pseudotropheus estherae (original), Others: Metriaclima estherae, Maylandia estherae, Original: Pseudotropheus estherae

Are these the crabs you have?
Tropical Crabs for Freshwater Aquariums: Mini Crab They are brackish water but are not fully aquatic. They are great and entertaining in a setup made just for them. I don't think they will mix with the puffers either. The puffers will eat them if they are not too big, the will be in more danger after molting when the new shell is still soft. If they are too big to be eaten they will be a danger to the fish at night when they sleep.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

The one crab I have left out of the three are from Petsmart. They are Red Claw Crabs. As mentioned before there tanks run on a "neutral" system with a pH of 6.8, kH 3 and temp of 77. As for info on the other fish I'm housing, I'm going off of LiveAquaria.com. So far my numbers are in range of each other to have all these fish live together. I did alot of reading on the Figure 8 puffers and found them to be the least aggresive out of the freshwatyer puffer family. They say the Green Spotted puffers are the ones to watch out for. I'll take the advice on the API Proper pH and stop dosing for the 6.5. As it stands, even the 10g tank had some added to that when started and it's been constant at 6.6. 

I'm also going to continue with the daily water chnages untill I get the proper number back in line then return to weekly weater changes. Would adding a 3+ Moss balls do anything to help the tank? Not sure as to what plants I would add, thats why I ask.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Liveaquaria is known for misinformation so you need to look at other sources.They list Zebra danios as needing much larger housing than glofish,who are essentially zebra danios :/

Plants will help you,but with the chemicals I am not sure how they will fare.You can try it.If you want something that will suck up nutrients,if its legal in your state,Sunset hygro and wisteria will do great for that.

Wrongcrowd.com - Freshwater Red Clawed Crabs
This page has some info on red clawed crabs,which says you need almost half the salinity of saltwater for him.Also they are not tolerant of cycling tanks.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

joeyhatch11 said:


> I'm also going to continue with the daily water chnages untill I get the proper number back in line then return to weekly weater changes. Would adding a 3+ Moss balls do anything to help the tank? Not sure as to what plants I would add, thats why I ask.


I think the moss balls are a good idea.They are happy under almost any conditions, even light brackish. Plants are great to help keep a tank clean and stable. The plants you choose depends on the lighting, substrate etc you have. Plants only work in a tank if they are happy otherwise they just break down and add to the ammonia problems. Other easy plants that require nothing special would be java moss, java fern and anubias. Fast growing plants are the best for absorbing ammonia and other nutrients but most require more light so it would depend on the tank lighting you have. 



joeyhatch11 said:


> As mentioned before there tanks run on a "neutral" system with a pH of 6.8, kH 3 and temp of 77. As for info on the other fish I'm housing, I'm going off of LiveAquaria.com. So far my numbers are in range of each other to have all these fish live together.


It seems that F8 puffers are okay in fresh water when they are young so you might be okay for a couple of months but I don't think you can get around the fact that they are going to need brackish water and the cichlids don't.


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## joevw007 (Jul 6, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> IMHO don't "chase" pH with chemicals.
> 
> My planted tank all have a pH of 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit) yet fish like neon tetras and silver hatchet fish reportedly "needing" a pH of under 7 thrive and live for years.
> 
> ...


im in complete agreement with beaslbob. i feel the chemicals are much more harmful to the fish than a .5 difference in their "ideal" ph. remember out in the wild the ph does change, as long as these changes arent more than .5 or so per 24 hours then everything should be fine. i just made a CO2 system and my ph has dropped about .5 over night. that might be a better way to keep the ph low


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

joevw007 said:


> im in complete agreement with beaslbob. i feel the chemicals are much more harmful to the fish than a .5 difference in their "ideal" ph. remember out in the wild the ph does change, as long as these changes arent more than .5 or so per 24 hours then everything should be fine. i just made a CO2 system and my ph has dropped about .5 over night. that might be a better way to keep the ph low


Thanks.

Too me even a nightly pH drop is not all that bad. I had a ph drop of 8.4-8.8 (purple) go 7.9 (brown) api high range test kit on my 55g mixed reef tank. Yet fish and coral thrived and lived for years.

What had happened is the plant life (macro algaes in that case) had removed the co2 to such an extent that even the lowest pH was still much higher the the more constant pH before adding the macros). But before adding the macros new fish only lived for a few weeks. even though the pH was much more constant.

FWIW pH does vary daily in the wild and even in saltwater bays/lagoons nightly pH drops greater that what my tank experienced are expected.

The daily pH cycles also happen in Fw lakes as well.

Yet fish/corals/plants and so on thrive in those environments.

So again to me it is more about why the pH is low (or whatever value) then what the actual pH is at.

So I basically use plant life to suck out the co2 and ignore pH.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

joevw007 said:


> im in complete agreement with beaslbob. i feel the chemicals are much more harmful to the fish than a .5 difference in their "ideal" ph. remember out in the wild the ph does change, as long as these changes arent more than .5 or so per 24 hours then everything should be fine. i just made a CO2 system and my ph has dropped about .5 over night. that might be a better way to keep the ph low


Using CO2 just for the purposes to lower ph is a bad idea. The whole .5 things doesn't really apply as long as the ph drop is natural. Planted tank keepers that inject pressuirzed CO2 regularly see full point swings (within 6-8hrs) during their lighting periods when the CO2 is on. This would be about the point you hit 30ppm CO2.

Liveaquaria puts out bad info? I would trust them over anyone else on the web.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I'd agree with the other posters here. PH up and down chemicals are almost always bad news. If you know what you are doing trying to do something specific like trigger breeding there may be a place for them. One of the problems is that they react differently with different tap water so it's hard to predict the result. It seems you have been lucky in that you have not had wild PH swings. Still I don't really see a need for you to use these chemicals. If you need to peat, wood and mixing RO water are better ways of lowering PH. Actually for the fish you have I think you should be raising your PH by adding something like crushed shells, limestone or coral. This should be done slowly so as not to alter the water too quickly but will remain stable.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Im going to let the tank go till this weekend and see what changes over the next few days. If I get some positive results ill add 3-4 moss balls to start and see what plants the LFS offer and what lighting they need. I have a home made led light bar that houses 144 white leds and 72 blues. Lights the tank very well and id like to believe it would promote good plant growth. As for the chemicals, ive stopped adding them and have been doing 10g water changes each morning. Also to give you a heads up, I do have an aragonite substrant in the tank just over an inch thick, which im sure will pose its own problems as far as planting some plants. But have been told that "grasses" will do fine in aragonite.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Was told that by having an aragonite substrant and using the buffer the tank will hold a 6.6 very well and thus far has been great.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Too me even a nightly pH drop is not all that bad. I had a ph drop of 8.4-8.8 (purple) go 7.9 (brown) api high range test kit on my 55g mixed reef tank. Yet fish and coral thrived and lived for years.
> 
> ...


Agree, it's not really PH swings that are dangerous, it's what are causing them. Normal PH swings caused by CO2 won't harm fish because it doesn't change the water hardness. Where as sudden changes in mineral content will cause PH swings and also make it hard for a fish to regulate the fluid content in their bodies which can quickly become deadly. It should be noted that an overdose of CO2 will also kill your fish quickly but that has nothing to do with the PH.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

joeyhatch11 said:


> Was told that by having an aragonite substrant and using the buffer the tank will hold a 6.6 very well and thus far has been great.


Does it have a small amount, or is it all aragonite? Aragonite is often used to get a PH over 8, which would probably be a good thing for the fish you have.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

30lbs of aragonite and 10lbs of play sands. Ive read that aragonite will not yeild a high pH but will do a better job holding one while using a buffer, which it has. I dont have Ph swings, never had since I started the tank. I simply added too many fish too fast and should have waited a month before adding the cichlids. In any case, like mentioned, im going to keep up with the water changes to get the ammonia down. Which is my onlh problem at the moment. Then Ill add some moss balls and make sure that my lighting is sufficent enough to maintain growth. If not then ill look at other sources.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

No, the tank should have been cycled before adding the cichlids. That can take as much as 8wks. Hopefully, you have read abut the nitrogen cycle....it is not about X amount of time means this or that. It is a process of nature.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Well I'm playing the waiting game again with this tank and this time I'm in no rush to get the fish back in. I want to get it right, take my time and have a healthy happy tank. So doing the water changes, adding some plants and testing the tank daily is the better course of action at the moment....right?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Daily testing maybe until the cycle has finished doing what it needs to. Weekly from there, just before you start your weekly water changes.....if that is what you plan.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Are their fish in your tank at the moment then?


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I had to put one og the Red Zebra cichlids back in the tank because in the 10g it was bothering all the other fish. He's been in there fro 3 days now and is doing very well. As of yesterday evening, the ammonia was around 2, maybe a bit more like 3, but not dark enough for a 4 so the ammonia dropping. When I had my spike and added the AmmoSafe they said it would make the ammonia non toxic but will still show high amounts when tested untill it's removed via water changes and filtration. With the single fish doing well, I'd like to think the water is not toxic anymore but will only have that one fish in there untill everything looks 100%.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Need some help again. Since I stopped using the pH Buffer, the pH in my 40g is now up to 7.4, where as before it was a steady 6.6. The problem is, the 10g tank that I'm using to hold the few fish that were in the 40g is still at a 6.6-6.8. Even with the 3g water changes I do, it's still not altering the pH. So my question is, do I start the buffer again but this time make it a 7.5 or do I continue the water changes on both tanks and wait until the 10g gets high enough to match the 40g?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

joeyhatch11 said:


> Need some help again. Since I stopped using the pH Buffer, the pH in my 40g is now up to 7.4, where as before it was a steady 6.6. The problem is, the 10g tank that I'm using to hold the few fish that were in the 40g is still at a 6.6-6.8. Even with the 3g water changes I do, it's still not altering the pH. So my question is, do I start the buffer again but this time make it a 7.5 or do I continue the water changes on both tanks and wait until the 10g gets high enough to match the 40g?


I would prefer you use fast growing plants like anacharis to get the pH up.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

joeyhatch11 said:


> Need some help again. Since I stopped using the pH Buffer, the pH in my 40g is now up to 7.4, where as before it was a steady 6.6. The problem is, the 10g tank that I'm using to hold the few fish that were in the 40g is still at a 6.6-6.8. Even with the 3g water changes I do, it's still not altering the pH. So my question is, do I start the buffer again but this time make it a 7.5 or do I continue the water changes on both tanks and wait until the 10g gets high enough to match the 40g?


I guess I am having a hard time figuring out why you feel that a certain ph is needed? With the exception of a few fish out there that are less tolerant to living outside their natural range, most fish will adapt to the water you have. That is why it is so important to do things like drip acclimate them before putting them in.

FWIW, plants didn't change my ph at all.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

^ agree.If you properly acclimate your fish there should be no worry about the PH causing any trouble.If you keep adjusting it,chances are the PH will crash and that will kill all the fish.


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## joeyhatch11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I stopped the pH 6.5 but my concern was taking the fish from the 10g and adding them back in the 40g when there was 1.2 difference in pH. But over the past couple of days, doing the water chnages on the tanks to keep the ammonia in check the pH's are now the same. So I went and put 2 fish back in the 40g. So far everything is looking good. I'm not concerned with keeping the pH in my tanks at a certain level anymore. Now I'm just condictioning the tap water with Tetra AquaSafe Plus for 24hrs and then adding it to the tank when I do my water changes.


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