# a thread for thinkers....



## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

ok, so, here is my dilemma: i have a fish that has been spawned many times in captivity, and yet nobody has been able to keep the fry alive in captivity. i have set my sights on this fish, and will continue to work with it until i have solved the problem. after that, ill probably just let everyone know what worked and will then move on to another challenge. 

anyway, the fish in question is the empire gudgeon. i have the fish, and it seems that they are approaching breeding age, so i need to formulate a plan. since nobody has ever raised them successfully in an aquarium, any and all new ideas are valid. i dont care how crazy it is, if it makes even a little bit of sense, ill try it. who knows, maybe you can be the person who came up with the idea that cracked the code of the empire gudgeon. 

what i need is any and all ideas for raising empire gudgeon fry. this is a thread for free thinkers, those who like taking a theoretical problem and trying to solve it with thought alone.

so, any thoughts as to why nobody has been successful with this fish?


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

Doubt there's anything original in my thinking but...
#1 remove female after fertilization
#2 add slight salt content to water
#3 try extremes in Ph level
#4 isolate fry in tank saturated/w daphnia or daphnia/algae
#5 use say a ten gallon tank, add excessive light and allow hair algae to grow plus daphnia and use this as isolation tank for fry.
Two of the Walmart "under the counter" type light strips ($8) with GE "Daylight F-15" or F-20 I don't remember which but at
Loew's for about $8 says 6500K on side of package...these are adequate...no need for "super bulbs"


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm sure you've researched so sorry if this is something you found ,but it seemed optomistic and informative;
Empire Gudgeon spawning - Practical Fishkeeping Forum
Good looking fish!


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

This is very interesting...I read about this fish a while after you posted this. What I would try; set up a river style tank with you pair in it. Get a couple power heads with sponges and place them on the same side. Then maybe set up spawning sites like you would for angel fish. They seem to like the same types of things to lay eggs on. Then once you have eggs. I would try moving the parents. Turn down the turbulence, go to just a sponge filter. Then drip brackish. Get a bucket of water and make some brackish water. Nothing too strong. Maybe 1.010-3. I saw that the fry will go to estuaries to feed. So once you have free swimmers. Take a little bit of water out every day, hour, however you want to do it. And as part of your water change add the brackish as your new water. Then as they get bigger go back to fresh.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

It seems that the biggest hurdle is getting the new fry eating, there was a post earlier that talked about using an overgrown algae tank for fry rearing. I went one step farther with my Scarlet Badis and moved the breeding pair to a tank in direct sunlight that grows sheets of algae, 3/4 filled a five gallon tank with this algae and on their most recent mating moved the newly hatched fry over to the five gallon tank with a seeded sponge filter. So far success as my fry lived in and on the algae for the first week with no feeding from me (which is the longest I have ever been able to keep the fry alive) this last week I have been adding first bites and some Daphnia with twice daily water changes of 15-20 % and still have the fry surviving and growing well.
PS: if anyone remembers who posted the original post on raising fry in algae please pm me so I can say thanks.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Auban himself was op of the algae thread! I'm sure he will incorporate that technique.Congrtas on your Badis.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f86/algae-thread-raising-fry-42606.html


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Lol, oops trying to inform the master, well thanks worked great for me.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

How to Culture Greenwater: 11 Steps - wikiHow

You could try using green water as fry food depending on how small the fry are at first


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

The "Reproduction" section of this page may be helpful:
Hypseleotris compressa (Empire Gudgeon) — Seriously Fish


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

I read this page before too. It was very helpful.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Vinegar eels are very tiny. Not sure how small the fry are but I have seen some of the pickiest betta fry chow them down. Have you tried them?


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

unfortunately, vinegar eels are too large for empire gudgeon fry. i think green water may end up being the best source of food. i just wish i knew exactly what it was in the green water that the fry might eat... green water varies greatly in its biodiversity.

congratulations on your fry dalfed. the algae may not look pretty but it sure does work.

i will be adjusting the salinity to see if it makes a difference, but i have a feeling that it wont. many populations are completely landlocked, and all successful breeding reports involve the use of outdoor ponds.
i wonder why...


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

Maybe it has something to do with barometric pressure.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Rainwater maybe? I would imagine that the rain would carry alot of needed microorganisms the fry could enjoy.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

There are so many things that are different with outdoor set ups(ponds) compared to indoors I can only think of Navs thread "stagnation and an argument for filteration".Hotwingz and Majerah are right on track ,I'll even say dust from wind or maybe the wind.Even in water bodies seasonally created I don't think nature has had to cycle(like we do for quite some time now?)Longer (everchanging) light cycles,live food consisting of a diversity we only dream of(you actually do it{you do have that stuff going on Auban!}).What makes outdoors better?If I even thought I really knew ,I'd do my best to try to bring it inside also.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/stagnation-argument-filtration-38866.html


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

my current thinking is that UV may play a large part in it. i know from my own observations that UV-A causes a lot of types of algae to develop larger cells, which store more fats. putting such algae under pressure and heat, i am able to extract about 3-4 times as much lipids from them. this is an important observation to take into consideration if empire gudgeons are evolved from marine fish. many marine fish larvae need high amounts of highly unsaturated fatty acids(HUFA) in order to survive. 

take clown fish for example. the most common food fed to the larval fry is rotifers. however, the rotifers MUST be fed nannochloropsis algae, or the larval clownfish wont survive. for the longest time, people fed them rotifers that had been raised on yeast, and experienced around 95% mortality rates. when they fed the same rotifers nannochloropsis algae instead, they started reaching 95% survival rates instead. the key difference was the amount of HUFA making it to the larval fish.

empire gudgeons have some of the smallest fry, right in line with many marine fish. they hatch out in a severely underdeveloped state, much like many of the marine fish kept in the hobby. they resemble marine fish more than freshwater fish.

with this in mind, one of the first things i will be trying is feeding them foods that are high in HUFA. unfortunately, rotifers are too big for these guys. so, i will have to find a ciliate that can be produced in large numbers, and i have to find a way to get that ciliate to eat something that is high in HUFA. i have already identified a number of ciliates that might work, many of which i have isolated from saltwater. im still working on producing them in large numbers.

there are some other things i am thinking about, but i would prefer hearing more ideas from everyone else first. i enjoy these types of discussions.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Nice!
I'm digging this thread also.I'm sure you're all up on things but I use SELCON for my reef tanks(it's HUFA) and a fantastic source of other vitamins.
Really good research you're doing and blows me away(kinda like I'm wasting a post),but reading is not enough,I got get in in on what you're doing!
Straight out great luck to you and thanks for all you share.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

looking under a microscope, i find the highest concentrations of ciliates in cyanobacterial mats. im thinking, nothing else, i can probably grow the cyano, put it into a bottle, shake the crap out of it, 'fuge it, and extract the ciliates. something thats kinda neat about a cyanobacterial mat is that it can reform itself after you shred it to millions of little pieces. so, after i extract as many ciliates as i can from it, i can toss it back into the tank i had it in and by the next day it will be its practically fully repaired, and hopefully, seeded.

now, if i keep it in shallow water under strong light, and continuously feed the cyano culture some nannochloropsis algae, i may be able to use the cyano as a substrate to grow the cilliates on. since the cyano i have produces its own biofilm, it should be able to collect a lot of nannochloropsis, which would attract a lot of cilliates. with any luck, something will eat the nanno as well as the biofilm...

hmm.... now, where did i put that centrifuge....


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

something i would highly suggest for anyone who wants to advance the hobby, and do things that nobody else have ever done, is to read the book "limnology, lakes and river ecosystems" by Wetzel. it covers pretty much every process that goes on in inland waters, and therefore will give you an incredibly extensive understanding of aquatic ecology, if you read it. 

its a college level text, but that should not discourage you if you want to learn. i had to staye glued to google for the first couple chapters when i first read it, looking up so many words that i did not understand. the end result though, is worth it. 

if you read this book for nothing more than the desire to learn, you will likely retain more of it than anyone who reads the book as a requirement of their curriculum.


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