# Relentless variations in ammonia & nitrates



## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

I wish I was in a position to actually help someone rather than return for more advice, but I'm ready to shoot myself over these inexplicable, mystifying, and even baffling spikes in ammonia and nitrates in my 55 gal. tank, which consists of about 25 mollies, 4 or 5 cories, a few mini plecos, 4 or 5 Mickey Mouse platys, a few similar orange/red platys, and one lone gupster. I had a few more guppies and a half dozen neon tetras, but I lost those within a couple of days after adding them to the tank. I know the neon tetras are somewhat sensitive, but c'mon...2 days? I have an HOB Aquaclear 70, as well as a Sun-Sun 5 stage external canister. I'm really trying to do right by my fish, ya know?
After losing the tetras and guppies (how do you lose guppies?), I broke out the 'ol API test kit and everything was spiked...ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, as well as the Molly's high heels...I'm a kidder. Anyway, I proceeded to do 4 40% water changes over a week and a half, adding some Prime, Tetra AquaSafe Plus, and a few teaspoons of neutral regulator in the process. I have a driftwood log and a couple of pieces of good size pseudo wood/plastic decos in the tank with some cheesy artificial plants, and approx. an inch or 2 of relatively small gravel, which I vacuumed prior to the water changes cuz it had been awhile and **** was accumulating in the substrate (by **** I mean uneaten food, possibly uneaten dead tetras, which I do look closely for, and some ****). In the HOB filter, typically I'll have a sponge in the bottom, then a bag of Purigen, topped off with a bag of Aquaclear ammonia eating gravel. This filter tends to clog relatively fast, in a week or two, and the water flow through it is reduced to a trickle, so I really have no choice but to change the medium, which is no doubt removing some of the beneficial bacteria. Might it help if I strategically placed a couple of of old sponges here and there in the tank, sponges that might still contain some bacteria? Oh yeah...the PH was also pretty high, in the 7.2+ range. I mean, even after I did the 4th water change, and all the levels were down substantially (but still above zero), some of the pansy mollies were still at the surface gasping for air. Grow a pair, ya know? Kidding...I really don't want any of my fish to be uncomfortable, that's why it's so friggin frustrating. I lay awake at night worrying about these fish (not really) and do all these water changes (really), and these weasels still aren't happy campers. 
Ok, I've poured my guts out over these creatures, any and all advice/suggestions would be very much appreciated. And thanks for subjecting yourselves to my lame humor....KC
Edit: forgot to mention 4 Gouramies as well, 2 of the light blue ones are decent sized.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Roughly it sounds like you have 40+ fish in your 55?With that many fish you should be changing 50% at least a week maybe 2X a week.The mollies are considerable waste producers so I would say 50% wc if they were the only fish in tank.
Overfeeding can only make your water worse.I breed so I know about feeding lots of fish in single tanks.It is easy to think they need more,but they don't.We used to have a member who said he fed his fish 1flake per day,each.That seems light,but all food must be eaten in 2 minutes.If any is left over you are overfeeding and adding to the excess nutrients.A sponge placed over the intake of your filters may help with the cleaning of the filters as they will catch alot of crap.If you rinse the sponges IN your filter with dirty tank water during the waterchanges you will not effect the beneficial bacteria.Just squeeze them out and ring them in old water and they should be good.I use sponges in all my HOB filters and sponge "prefilters" on intake tubes and need to clean prefilter every 1 or 2 weeks with the actual filter cleaning no more than once a month.
I'll guess if all is cycled all the ammonia is dead fish or food in excess(1 dead fish is excess).The nitrItes go along with the ammonia.The nitrAtes(indicating a cycled filter) are something you can only reduce by water changes.40 ppm nitrates and under are all good.so if the nitrates are over 40 ppm you should change water.The % of water changed is the % the nitrates will go down.SO if you have 60ppm nitrates and change 50% you will still have 30 ppm nitrates leaving you close to needing another waterchange very soon.
50% a week!Give it a try for 2 weeks and test to see where your levels are at.If you need to do more it should probly be another 50%.
The large waterchanges(not so large by me,I do them everyweek on all my tanks),are NECESSARY due to your tank basically being overstocked.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

How old is your tank?

You realize you can recharge Purigen by giving it a bleach bath, right? I believe you can read the exact method on the packaging.

Cut out the neutral regulator - it's useless, and will do nothing but make your water caustic, as it is a phosphate buffer and phosphates = no bueno. If you want to lower your pH naturally, consider a bag of crushed clay or a bag of sphagnum peat moss in your filter.
Otherwise, follow advice above. Good luck!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There are a number of things that just scream for concern in your tank. 

- You have nearly 50 fish and had well over that before you started incurring your recent losses. You CAN'T have 1 fish per gallon! You are way overstocked! Can be dealt with, with LARGE and frequent (more than once per week) water changes. STOP buying fish! This is the root cause to your ammonia and high nitrates. You still have a cycling tank, even if it has been going for years.

- With your large stock, it took losing fish to get you to break out a test kit? If you want to keep that many, and I would suggest you do not, you will need to test weekly until you start to understand how your tank does from day in to day out feedings, how water changes are having an affect, etc...

- Where have you read that a ph of 7.2 is high? Stop reading and believing what you have read. Adding ph adjusters in your tank is useless and dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. The natural buffers in your water will return it back to where it was, you add more, it returns, and your fish feel like yo-yos and end up stressed and die. Stop adding that crap! What is the ph out of your tap? Do you even know? If your ph is an 8.0, all of those fish will be fine.

- What type of Gouramis do you have? By the description of at least two, I would assume dwarf type? If so, it will not be too long before there is only one. Your tank is much too small for two even, as they are territorial and will usually kill other Gouramis.

- You need to get a hold of the general maintenance of your tank. So many things that you mention don't sound like you mind to it very well, but are getting frustrated by losing fish and it is likely because of your maintenance. You wanted all of these fish and you need to do right by them. It sounds to me like you are slightly in over your head. Hadn't been a while since you vacuumed the gravel? How long? What was your "normal" water changes like and how big? How often are you cleaning your filters? When was the last time the canister got any attention? Vacuum half the gravel one week and finish the next. Filter maintenance for your tank needs to be done probably weekly. Pick one of them one week, do the other the next. 50% water changes minimum every week, if not more. Test your nitrates after the water change. If you are not down below 20ppm you didn't do enough. You can do 75-80% water changes without issue as long as you keep a fairly steady temp to the water coming in.

Remember, everything that you put off or don't do cause negative effects exasperated by your large stock and too small of a tank to accommodate them. The bad news is what you are experiencing may just be the first of your problems. Ich, fungus, columnaris and anything else your fish can get may be very close at hand due to their high stress level. The good news is it is all fixable, but you need to get in control and maintain it.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Why do I feel like I've been beaten severely about the face and head? I'll try to address your very legitimate concerns, as well as defend myself to a small degree. CB, I may have overstated the number of mollies by 10 or so. I realize they're not the cleanest fish when it comes to waste produced, and they can be very prolific "replicators". Most of the fry are consumed soon after birth, but there are always a few that survive, and I've found their numbers can get out of hand in short order. As soon as I feel there are too many to be accommodated by my 55 gal tank, I gather up the excess and donate them to a local, independent fish store. Between the HOB and canister filters, the water is always VERY clear. I know that doesn't necessarily mean ammonia and nitrates are contained, just that excess food or waste floating in the water is adequately filtered. I leave the filter media in the canister untouched for 1-2 months, and when I replace the media, I always leave at least one tray with Fluval pre-filter media and bio balls. I've had the tank for 2 yrs, so it's not going through a new cycle, and just a couple of weeks before, the ammonia and nitrates tested near zero, so it wasn't as if I was ignoring the tank for any length of time. Yes, I'm probably guilty of over feeding; I feed my fish a variety of food, consisting of flakes, dried blood worms and brine shrimp, algae chips for the Corys and mini Plecos, shrimp pellets, Hikari micro and "S" size pellets, as well as frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp. No, I don't give them some of all this food at once. I just like to vary their diet and treat them to the frozen food now and again. No doubt some of the food, the pellets in particular, sink right to the bottom and accumulate after a time, which contributes to the ammonia and nitrate spikes. And yes, I do vacuum on a regular basis, as well as test the water at least every 2 weeks, it's not an afterthought to whoever suggested it might be. I picked up the extra fish soon after the ammonia and nitrates tested near zero, and to add some color to the tank. Black and white mollies get old after awhile, and I certainly would not add fish to a tank measuring high in ammonia and nitrates. As soon as the ammonia spiked, I did 4 40% water changes within 2 weeks, and I'll do as many as necessary to bring the ammonia and nitrates back down to acceptable levels.
Yes, I screwed up and I don't feel good about it. If I came across as coy and uncaring, I apologize, because I take my fish very seriously. I'm disabled and don't get out too much, so my fish are my friends, and it bothers me whenever I lose ANY fish. I try to inject some humor because I don't have too much to feel good about. There are a few more things I'd like to say, but I'm gonna go now.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

No beatings were intended and I apologise if anything seemed like one.All info given by myself and jr is accurate.All info and suggestions were given as possible help or methods we ourselves adhere to and do regulary.
It is possible to have cycling issues in "established" tanks if the bio load is increased or feedings are too much.
I do hope you get your tank worked out and can enjoy with out too much headache,but maintenance is always an on going thing in "closed systems".


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Bandit, that was just my lame attempt at humor, by no means did I think you intended a beating, just maybe a light flogging by Giz & Jr . Yes, I'm well aware that Purigen can be recycled by soaking in bleach. The sponge in the HOB filter (an Aquaclear 70) tends to clog fairly quickly, although the Purigen gets dirty pretty fast as well. Like I said, the HOB filter tends to slow to a trickle, even at the highest flow rate, in a week or so. I'll flush the sponge a few times and reuse it when I can, but the water flow doesn't free up much so I don't have much choice but to replace the sponge. What I was asking about the used filter sponges was this: assuming they've accumulated some bacteria while in the filter, would it help to just position a couple of the used sponges on the bottom of the tank in the absence of more bacteria elsewhere. Just a thought...if it's a stupid idea, just say so...just trying to figure out how to maintain the ammonia-eating bacteria any way possible, ya know? 
Regarding the neutral regulator, it may very well be useless, but it's rated 4.5 stars by about 20 folks on Amazon, which doesn't necessarily make it miracle sht, it just makes it highly thought of by 20 people.
Jr., "scream for concern" may be a bit harsh. The rule of thumb that I'm familiar with regarding number of fish is approx. 1 inch of fish per gal., so if I had 20 mollies ranging from a half inch to 2 inches, I would have approx. 30 inches of fish. Add about 8 platys at a half to one inch, a few corys at 1-2 inches, 4 Gouramies averaging 2-3 inches, and a few very small Plecos, and I'm pushing the threshold. I don't mindlessly keep adding fish to an already busy tank. As for the PH, I guess I assumed 7.2 to 8.0 is somewhat high since it's at the high end of the scale, and I may have read that as well, but I need to get away from that readin' and believin', right Jr.? No, I don't have to lose fish to reluctantly decide to test the water. Like I said, only a couple weeks prior the ammonia and nitrates were down considerably, so I though it might be a good time to add a few colorful, but small, varieties. Guess I paid the price for that, eh Jr.? As for the Gouramies, I guess I assumed they'd appreciate a buddy or two, just as most other community fish would. I have 2 relatively large powder blue, and 2 smaller ones with vertical orange stripes. I suppose if any are going to go crazy on their brother or sister, it will be the bigger blue ones. The biggest seems to have the run of the tank, while the other blue one hides next to the water heater behind a dense plant, so he's probably freaked out over the big guy as you suggested. The two smaller orange ones appear to get along, but all it would take is for one to look at the other cross eyed, and all bets are off. He could wake up next to the severed head of a big ol' molly. All kidding aside, I appreciate the advice about the Gouramies...they were in the same tank at the LFS, so I figured they would at least hang together, but if that's not usually the case, in the future I won't invite Gouramie-on-Gouramie UFC action.
C'mon jr, give me some credit for knowing what proper maintenance is after keeping fish for a few years, and knowing what will fck them up in a heartbeat. I don't doubt for a minute that I lost the fish due to my neglect. The things I mentioned are things I know can cause ammonia and nitrate spikes, not necessarily things I knew I had done to fck up the tank and lose fish. It almost sounds like you're suggesting I know why my fish are dying but I go ahead and do it anyway. It's been a week since I vacuumed, my water changes are always 30-40%, usually once a week unless I fck up the cycle, over feed, or overstock the tank, at which time the water changes are at least a couple of times a week. The canister doesn't get a whole lot of attention because I don't want to disturb whatever beneficial bacterial I might have. As long as the water flow is reasonably consistent from the canister, there's really no reason to fool with it. Changing too much filter media at the same time can screw up your cycle by getting rid of good bacteria, isn't that right jr? And I highly doubt I'm on the verge of a major outbreak of dreaded fish diseases because my ammonia and nitrate spiked, and I lost some fish, a somewhat common occurrence, even among longtime aquarium enthusiasts. I don't mean to downplay any of your observations jr, I just think you're exaggerating to some degree the condition of my tank, as well as my lack of commitment. My tank is not outrageously overstocked, nor do I ignore routine maintenance. And I don't begin to believe everything I read online, but I also don't believe that nothing is worth reading, and I think it's a bit irresponsible to suggest you shouldn't believe anything you read. I'm usually discerning enough to cut through the bullsht and decide what's valuable info and what's not. I may be distracted at times, but I'm not "in over my head". I've maintained a healthy, consistent nitrogen cycle for long periods of time and will do it again....Kirby


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Kirby, while I do agree that jrman can be brutally honest, I feel like you are deluding yourself. 7.2 pH is not high (7.0 is considered "neutral water", I believe). Your filter is clogging frequently because, as stressed, you have WAY too many fish. Please don't use the inch-per-gallon rule as it is completely arbitrary, especially when you don't layer your tank into top, mid, and bottom swimmers. Double your filtration, double your water changes, and cut your feeding in half and you'll witness much more stable water. I'd say 30 fish in a 55 gallon is your top limit, but that's just me. I have six fish in my ten gallon, and I have live plants to supplement a filter rated for a fifty gallon tank. I only feed once every 4 days or so and, like you, I feed a variety.

Kudos on what you have done so far, but realize that you still have much to learn, as do we all. None of us are professionals, so our advice is based on extensive research, as well as extensive personal experience. And for many of us, one single death is one too many.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That's me...brutal, lol. I was trying to count how many times you typed "jr" in your last response...lost count.

Anyway, nothing I said was not even close to being far off base based on what you shared. Anyone that comes here and gives the amount of fish you have in a tank the size you have and includes the words ammonia automatically SCREAMS concern. If all you have is a tit for my tat, then I am sure you will get it all fixed. My suggestions were based off of my experience and the information that I have attained by the years of experience of this collective group on this site.

There really isn't an inch-per-gallon rule. If you want to go by one that you believe is correct, then I can see how you got where you got. As I think I said, your stock/tank is doable, but requires more work from you. I think most of us on here recommend pretty safe stock levels because it gives you some "wiggle room" if you did something like a less % water change this week because you didn't have much time, or let the filter or gravel vacuum go another week before you got it, etc.. When you stock as you have done...you DO NOT have this room. I have two high light tanks that if I let anything slip in the way of CO2 or ferts...for even one day...the plants are affected negatively. But, I have it that way knowing this. Should be no different for you. Do what you need to do, all of it, not just most of it, and you will not have issues. Reduce your stock and you probably won't have any issues.

All canisters require some type of maintenance. If you are not totally aware how to do such without interfering or interrupting the beneficial bacteria, maybe this is something you should ask and/or read about. It is not an assumed detriment action and if you do not do, especially considering your other filter is struggling, you are probably taking away its effectiveness and at your stock level your filters are what is keeping you afloat, so-to-speak.

You do what you want with the ph. We have tried to steer you in the right direction. If Amazon reviews are where you feel more comfortable then by all means, follow your heart. It may have killed the fish you had die? Do you know how your water buffers the ph? Do you know your kh values? If you had a no to either of those messing with the ph is just reckless. Most of those products work. However, they will not work with all water and a water with a higher kh level will bounce back. This is what I mean by knowing what you are doing. Only your fish feel the yo-yo effect as they become stressed and die, while you add more and more. Stop it and watch how much happier your fish will be.

I'll stop right there. None of this was meant to be harsh. How you take it is up to you. If you don't want to take some of the suggestions, that is up to you. Nobody here wishes you more problems but sometimes you do just want to shake your head when it seems that the most important part seems to be how the info was taken and not the info itself.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I never mentioned anything on pH or the buffers.The buffers are all bad news and I don't care if 200 people on amazon said good things,I could only reply to that with "there's another 200 people who don't have a clue!"
Your pH is anything but high as mentioned 7.2 is only.2 above neutral.
Since you don't have the neons anymore I can only say that the fish you keep(especially the mollies) would prefer an even higher pH,but with that being said I still would not buff.Fish adjust to the water they are in usaully without issue,and if allowed to do so make changing water easier and safer for both keeper and fish.
Stay away from the buffers.Amazon would be the last place I would take advice from ,unless it was a mechanical review,where real customers made mention of performance failures or true quality.Someone saying buffers work well???


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Um, I don't have A LOT of experience but how about this: wouldn't replacing the second struggling filter with another canister potentially help (not solve) the problem? 

I'll be the first to say that I was one of the guys who used to come here for info, and then do what I thought was a good idea, and pay the price for it. I can't remember specific examples, but I know for sure I did some things that coralbandit and jrman83 corrected me on and I'm am greatful for that. Now I am armed with more knowledge than I had at the start of my hobby and it always come in handy. This is the first place I come for advice. 

Now, I do think that we are all passionate about our hobby...some more than others. I do also think that when talking about a hobby that we are all so passionate about, things can escalate quickly. If I had anything else to add, aside from replacing the struggling filter with a canister, it would be try to see the good suggestions that are being made here and use them. I haven't heard anyone suggest this yet, but have you tried checking your stock and filtration against the aqadvisor site? Because I'll be honest, I haven't checked it for you myself but I agree that your tank does sound overstocked and under filtered.

I hope things work out for you and I hope you will "see the forest through the trees", to make a cliche quote...


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

Jr, I very much appreciate "brutal honesty", I just didn't appreciate a few assumptions you made that were not gleaned from anything I said in my first post. I never suggested I could have one fish per gallon, but I appreciate your concern that I am overstocked, and will do what I have to to reduce the number of fish in my tank. Like I said, I added a few small fish because the ammonia and nitrates had tested NEAR ZERO. I did not casually decide to test the water only when some fish had died, as you suggested. I readily admit that I'm not too familiar with PH, specifically what's acceptable and what's not. I mentioned it because it was at the high end of the scale, and wasn't sure if that was a big problem or not.
I apologize if my response came across as "tit for tat"; I very much respect your expertise, as well as other's on this board. And your suggestion that I leave some wiggle room regarding the number of fish in the tank makes a lot of sense, and I will adhere to that in the future. I only ask that you acknowledge that mollies can multiply very fast; just as we agree that losing fish is a bummer, having to give them away is disappointing as well. But that's no excuse for subjecting all the fish to life-threatening conditions. None of the chemicals I've added were to control PH, another assumption you made. Never have I tried to control the PH. I use the neutral regulator in moderation to reduce unwanted chemicals in tap water, the same reason I use the Tetra AquaSafe. The only other chemical I use is Prime, which is considered beneficial by everyone I've talked to and everything I've read. Is there a time when I should believe what I read?
Regarding the canister, I'd welcome any advice about using and maintaining the canister. It's my understanding that beneficial bacteria quite often resides in the canister, so it should never be entirely cleaned; one or two trays should be left untouched when maintenance is done on a canister. If that's way off base, please let me know. Also, if the water flow from the canister remains reasonably strong and consistent, there's really no reason to fool with it more than every month or two. Again, if that's way off base, I sincerely want to know.
Jr., I didn't intend to single you out in my response, I just wanted to be clear who a particular comment was directed to. It just so happened that most of my comments were directed at you . Please believe me, I value your comments and suggestions, and I know I can come across as a bit defensive. But I stand by my contention that a few of your comments were uncalled for or simply untrue. Excuse me while I rid myself of a dozen mollies . Kirby


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I think I would tend to agree that if your water flow from a canister is relatively unchanged that it may not need maintenance. I have a MarineLand 360 on my 55. Recently I added an aftermarket spraybar, so I can no longer really see if the flow drops much as I could with the stock nozzle. For this reason, I usually service my canister once ever couple of months. When I do, I usually have a big bucket of tank water standing by. Into this bucket I will put my bio balls and my ceramic rings and they will just sit there while I service the rest of the canister. I will swish my pads in tank water and ring them out once. I will rub the noticeable grime off the trays and the rubber gaskets that connect the trays (you see, my canister has virtually zero bypass so these components get very nasty). Then I will dump the nastiness out of the canister itself and rub it down with my hand so I can feel the grime get wiped away. In my case with the canister I have, most of the BB is housed in the bio balls and ceramic rings, so in cleaning everything but those, I run very little risk of disturbing the BB. To be perfectly honest, it only takes me about 15-20 minutes to clean it. I also keep an eye on the hoses, which may be a bit easier to do with MarineLand than eheim since my hoses are a mostly transparent grey color as opposed to the dark green hoses of the eheim. If they appear to be pretty mucked up (you can tell by looking at where the hoses connect to the intake output pipes near the top of the tank) I will disconnect the entire block with hoses attached and scrub the inside of those with a long pipe cleaner I bought at Home Depot. I will soak the hoses and valve block in a warm mixture of water and white distiller vinegar for about 10 minutes before I clean them and you would be amazed at how dirty they can become. I did this when I noticed my flow decreased drastically after a couple months and some folks on here suggested doing it. Made a HUGE difference! Very effective 

I hope this info helps with your filtration. I am staying out of the rest of the topics though.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Don't get rid of any fish. Even if you are overstocked, what you have is doable as long as you stay on top of it. My use of overstocked may have been a reference more to keeping up with tank need based on stock and not on actual numbers of fish.

Neutral regulator adjusts the ph. It is no different than any other ph up or down product except that it targets a 7.0 ph. Not sure if you need Prime and Aquasafe together. Believe they are performing the same function, although not sure if you meant using at the same time.

My comment on the canister was aimed at the fact that most use some type of replaceable fiber filter that if not replaced over time reduces flow. If you are at least replacing that, you should have no problem. I don't remove the trays in my canisters but about twice a year.

If I made a lot of assumptions is was all based off of what you posted. I only went a little more detailed than the previous postings before me. Its usually pretty easy to see the areas where potential problems lie. If some of the things I pointed out are not necessarily the case, then okay.


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## Kirby (Sep 21, 2012)

MriGuy85, I appreciate your thoughts on the canister. My first was an Aquatop CF500UV, which seemed to come apart after a few months, which I later determined was due to my negligence as much as anything else. Specifically, trying to force the top shut when all the trays weren't properly seated in the unit. Even with a busted latch and hoses I had left too long to work as efficiently as they could, it never leaked and continued to function, despite my best efforts to fck it up. When I decided it was time to invest in a new canister, I went with the Sun-Sun HW-304B, essentially identical to the Aquatop, but about $45 less. (What's up with that?) I figured the design seemed sound, plus I'd have a bunch of spare parts from the Aquatop I could use if need be, primarily the trays, which were the exact same trays as those in the Sun-Sun. I do have pads in every tray but one, which has the bio balls and ceramic rings. I make sure the bottom of that tray isn't too mucked up to allow water to flow through it, so I usually just set it aside to use after I've cleaned the rest of the canister. The pads in the other trays usually seem too clogged to be salvaged, so I replace them with new pads, which may very well be eliminating some BB that could be retained by just ringing out the pads as you suggest, which I'll do in the future. Along with the pads (one course one in the bottom tray), bio balls and ceramic rings, I'll put a couple of good-sized bags of Purigen, bleached and sanitized, in another tray, a couple of bags of Aquaclear 70 gal ammonia remover, and or a few bags of the Marineland PA0392 diamond blend crystals. I know what you mean about the hoses getting clogged if you wait too long to clean them. Although mine were, and still are, the semi-transparent light green variety, it was hard to see just how clogged they were until I flushed them, and all kinds of nasty **** came out. Thus far the Sun-Sun has been hassle free; no leaks, and I cut the hoses to more closely approximate the actual length from the canister to the in/outtake fittings. I have a couple of air stones in the tank, so rather than use spray bars to generate surface oxygen, I keep the outtake bar a couple of inches below the surface, angled upward to generate some movement on the surface. I can then pretty easily tell if the water flow from the canister subsides much, and I don't have to add to the noise already generated by the HOB Aquaclear 70. That filter may be effective, but it gets noisy as hell in no time. And yes, I routinely take the motor off so I can thoroughly clean the area around the impeller. Me thinks the impeller just bangs against the side of the enclosure it's in, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. This seems to be a common complaint for this HOB. I know I could spend a whole lot more for a canister, and no doubt some are built to last way longer than my Sun-Sun, but I just don't have an endless supply of money, and canisters all perform pretty much the same function anyway. I buy the Hikari pellets and algae chips in bulk, which saves a bunch over buying those little pouches, but overall I find myself sending Amazon about $100 a month for food and filtration supplies, and have no choice but to buy the frozen food locally, or for an arm and a leg from the Foster docs. No doubt most of you are aware of this, but the LFS markups are generally outrageous and should be avoided if at all possible; with an Amazon prime membership of $79 per year for free 2-day shipping on just about everything they sell, you can buy just about everything available at the LFS for way less, and have it delivered in no time.
Jr., I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; I tried to meet you more than half way, but for whatever reason, you just can't bring yourself to acknowledge that you made some assumptions and remarks that were not at all related to my first post. Recharging the Purigen, using the regulator for the PH, rather than to remove ammonia, chlorine, and chloramine, which is precisely what I used it for. Suggesting that I only test the water when I lose fish. Assuming its only a matter of time before the Gouramis go after each other, when I've never lost a Gourami and have always had a couple of each in the tank. Suggesting that I don't mind the tank very well and that I'm "in over my head" because I lost a few fish SOON AFTER THE WATER TESTED NEAR ZERO FOR AMMONIA AND NITRATES. Suggesting that I didn't know how or how often to vacuum the tank, maintain the filters, do water changes, etc., like I was some developmentally disabled newbie who had to be told what an aquarium is. Then you topped it off by suggesting that I was so negligent, that the tank was a good candidate for Ich, Fungus, Columnaris, and every other disgusting disease a fish could possibly be afflicted with. You left out flesh eating bacteria, the growth of extra body parts, and the dreaded "fish gone wild" affliction whereby, instead of flashing their naughty parts, they totally freak out, eating or scaring to death every other fish in the tank, and left with a bloody tank full of unrecognizable body parts, the likes of which are unimaginable. OK, I embellished that last sentence. Hopefully you have a sense of humor, as well as the ability to belittle. Look, I didn't have to spill my guts on this forum only to be told how much I fcked up, or how much I didn't fck up, or how stupid I am. I already know that. Again Jr., I very much APPRECIATE any and all constructive criticism, advice and suggestions. What I don't appreciate is being belittled with embellished commentary, know what I mean Vern? For some reason I don't think you know what I mean; just a little constructive criticism....Kirby


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Really?



> Jr., I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; I tried to meet you more than half way, but for whatever reason, you just can't bring yourself to acknowledge that you made some assumptions and remarks that were not at all related to my first post. _*And here I thought every thing I posted was related to "Relentless variations in ammonia & nitrates" If I typed info from another thread I do apologize for that*_
> 
> Recharging the Purigen, using the regulator for the PH, rather than to remove ammonia, chlorine, and chloramine, which is precisely what I used it for._*I never posted a word about Purigen. But was 100% correct in my statement about your ph regulator, which has nothing to do with removing anything. This was fact.*_
> 
> ...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

WOW!^^^^
First I don't think a whole lot of assumptions were made by anyone in this thread.Answers or more like suggestions were given based off initial info given by OP.
The first 3 people(maybe the only 3 people/we did get 4{thanks Mri}) to respond to this thread all interpreted "neutral regulator " as a pH buffer(that is the specific name of a pH buffer designed to get you to 7.0).Along with saying your pH is high 7.2 I don't think this is anyone who replied error!
Saying "it had been a while and **** was accumulating in substrate" adding it was uneaten food,dead fish and **** would lead most to believe you don't vaccumm regulary and overfeed(no crime on vaccumming as water can be changed without vacumming)but the overfeeding I still believe is an issue.
"Near zero" is an incomplete cycle.Ammonia ,nitrites and the possibility of dead fish still being in the tank is an invitation for disease!Any form of stress and poor water quality are the main cause of disease.People don't have to buy new "infected "fish to get issues in their tank,and by description you sound like a prime canidate for "whatever!"
Water changes are your solution and doing them often is what has been recommended.
Possibly the pair of "blue " gouramis will do fine together,but the "orange" ones sound like dwarfs and they probly will not get along for long.
None of this is in defense of anyone or anything said.Often good/proper advice is overlooked upon interpretation.It seems a shame that when asked people who are confident/competant enough to answer get slammed as the bad guy for their suggestions and knowledge.I don't think there was much "guessing" going on here,just BS info and a lack of true desire to receive the responses given."Take what you need and leave the rest",a philosophy for life and all advice forums.No reply necessary(just leave it if it is not good!)


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

This sounds awfully familiar... Act II?

Water changes water changes water changes coupled with very frequent cleaning of your pre filters (first part of filter water flows thru)... are the only permanent solution short of getting rid of many fish.

I'd be running two Aquaclear 110s on that tank with double sponges and probably add a canister on top of that. Or small canisters acting as prefilters connected to a reverse flow undergravel filter.

A suggestion to make it easier for people to read your posts and refer back to them - paragraphs and white space. Much easier on the eyes.

A note to all - that little saying saying under Coralbandits name isn't just a statement, its a mantra that we all should adhere to and mutter in our sleep. Hmmmmm, "I change water" t-shirts?


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

You know this isn't going to end. Someone should just close the thread. This is obviously a battle of words and not an attempt to get advice or correct a situation. I vote to shut this thread down. Just sayin...


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