# Oranda Staying Near Surface



## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

I currently have 5 small Oranda in my tank but one of them seems to stay at the surface most of the day.

He isn't gasping for air or anything, he just sits just below the surface. None of the others seem to mimic this behaviour so I don't think its anything to do with ammonia levels either. 

Anyone have any ideas why?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What are your ammonia readings by chance? How big is the tank? One fish could be affected differently than the others. How long have you had it? How was the fish acclimated to your tank?


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> What are your ammonia readings by chance? How big is the tank? One fish could be affected differently than the others. How long have you had it? How was the fish acclimated to your tank?


I'm not sure about the ammonia readings I'll have to grab another testing kit.
I've had that particular fish just over a week now.

I've read that its most likely swim bladder and to feed him broken up frozen peas or not feed him for a few days, can you confirm this information?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

How big is the tank?

Peas can fix that problem, yes. If that is what it is. Usually there is more to it other than just staying at the top. Make sure you search on youtube (recommened) to see how to prepare the peas.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

I'll do that tomorrow then.

Currently its a 60 litre but I'll be upgrading to a bigger tank soon.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

As much as you may not want to hear, a 15g tank with 5 Orandas can/will have ammonia issues more than likely. You need to get a test kit for ammonia. Try doing a 25% water change and see if it makes a difference. Very doubful this fish has a swim bladder problem.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I have to agree that 5 goldfish need a much bigger tank as they are messy fish and grow large. Have you noticed that any of the other ones bully it? It could be hiding out of the way from the others. When it swims does it swim normally? If it has swim bladder problems it will look like it is struggling to stay straight as it swims. Most likely the fish is not feeling well either from water conditions or another reason and staying where the oxygen levels are highest near the surface of the water makes it easier to breath. Hope that helps. Let us know how it goes, hope the little one gets better.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> As much as you may not want to hear, a 15g tank with 5 Orandas can/will have ammonia issues more than likely. You need to get a test kit for ammonia. Try doing a 25% water change and see if it makes a difference. Very doubful this fish has a swim bladder problem.


I did a water change last night but today it seems to be slightly on his side near the top.



snail said:


> I have to agree that 5 goldfish need a much bigger tank as they are messy fish and grow large. Have you noticed that any of the other ones bully it? It could be hiding out of the way from the others. When it swims does it swim normally? If it has swim bladder problems it will look like it is struggling to stay straight as it swims. Most likely the fish is not feeling well either from water conditions or another reason and staying where the oxygen levels are highest near the surface of the water makes it easier to breath. Hope that helps. Let us know how it goes, hope the little one gets better.


I've not noticed any of the others bullying it, when it swims its as if the back part of the fish is pulling him upwards. 

I'm going to pick up a test kit today, probably the master one and see how it goes.

Unfortunately he has stopped breathing now 

I'll still get the water testing kit later, thanks for all the advice.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. The test kit is a good thing to get anyway.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

I just performed the tests and here are my results:

pH: *7.6*
High Range pH: *7.4*
Ammonia (NH3/NH4+): *3.0ppm - 4.0ppm* 
Nitrate (NO2-): *0ppm*
Nitrate (NO3-): *0ppm* 

Is this normal for a tank that's around 4 weeks old?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Normal?  Probably. You should perform a 40-50% water change to try and get that ammonia down. I would say the goal is to try and keep it below 1, but you may have trouble getting there with your bio-load.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Normal? Probably. You should perform a 40-50% water change to try and get that ammonia down. I would say the goal is to try and keep it below 1, but you may have trouble getting there with your bio-load.


Thanks, I've purchased some ammonia remover so should I try that first or just go right ahead with the water change?

Also just curious, is it safe to add the ammonia remover with the fish in the tank?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ammonia removers lock up the ammonia, but also lock up oxygen. They can be useful in extreme situations where the ammonia is extremely high still after a big water change or unaffected by the water change. I would not use it unless your situation is extreme and I don't think you're there yet. Do the water change and go from there. Just be sure it is in the 40-50% range.

What brand water conditioner do you use?


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

Ok I'll do that now then.

The brand I use is called Nutrafin.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If the Nutrafin stuff also removes ammonia, then go ahead and use it. Some conditioners will remove ammonia. Prime is a very popular brand water conditioner that will do that.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

It states on the bottle that it eliminates ammonia and I've been using it to treat the water when I make water changes.

I've just completed a 40% water change so I'll leave it settle then test the ammonia levels later.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. It does sound like he had swim bladder problems, her may have already come with the problem and the ammonia in the water may have made it worse. Work on lowering the ammonia to prevent your other fish from getting ill.

How long have you had fish in the tank? During the first 6 weeks higher ammonia levels are to be expected while the tank is 'cycling' after that it should drop to 0 in a well balanced aquarium. In your case it may be impossible to keep it to 0 with the fish you have. 3.0ppm - 4.0ppm is enough to kill some fish, thankfully goldfish are hardy but bear in mind ammonia is still uncomfortable and unhealthy for them so keep it as low as possible until you are able to work out a more permanent solution. 

Ultimately you need a much bigger tank but until then things that may help your water quality:

a better filter
a gravel vac 
large water changes. I'd try 50% two times a week. 
Live plants, if you can find any your goldfish wont eat, try marimo balls or java moss. 

Let us know how it goes. And please ask when you need help, we've all been newbies so we know what it's like.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

I already have a gravel vac but will probably consider a better filter.

I've had the tank for 4 weeks now so hopefully it might drop in the coming weeks. The last thing I want is to harm the fish. 

I've never understood how pet shops seem to have 10 or 20 Oranda in smaller tanks and they seem to cope.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

Just performed an ammonia test now and its come back as 0.25ppm which is obviously much better than earlier on.

I'll monitor the situation.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

That's good. It'll probably climb to 1-2 before the end of the day. Just a guess.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

parry said:


> I've had the tank for 4 weeks now so hopefully it might drop in the coming weeks. The last thing I want is to harm the fish.


Sorry, I just realized I hadn't read all your earlier posts well, you had already said how long the tank has been running. It does seem like your tank is still cycling. During the cycle ammonia spikes then nitrites spike then you will start to see nitrates. When the cycle is done there will be nitrates but ammonia and nitrites should be 0. Because you have 4 goldfish in a 15 gallon ammonia may be an ongoing problem for you. You say the fish are still small though so with good maintenance you may be able to keep it under control for the time being.


> I've never understood how pet shops seem to have 10 or 20 Oranda in smaller tanks and they seem to cope.


There are a few reasons for this. Tanks at LFS often share a filter system and water can flow between tanks so what may look like several small tanks may really be more like a great big tank which spreads bio load and makes for more stable conditions. Their tanks are already cycled. Some LFS have very powerful filter systems and/or do frequent, even daily large water changes. They have a high turn over so they don't need to worry about growth rates, adult size, or even the long term health of the fish (and goldfish will often survive in less than perfect conditions). Finally most LFS have a very high death rate of fish. This may be beyond their control due to stress and bad conditions during transport but often they just consider it much easier and cheaper to replace dead fish than to provide better conditions.


> Just performed an ammonia test now and its come back as 0.25ppm which is obviously much better than earlier on.


If you could keep it to that it really wouldn't be bad for a goldfish tank, although as mentioned it is likely to climb again fairly quickly.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

snail said:


> Sorry, I just realized I hadn't read all your earlier posts well, you had already said how long the tank has been running. It does seem like your tank is still cycling. During the cycle ammonia spikes then nitrites spike then you will start to see nitrates. When the cycle is done there will be nitrates but ammonia and nitrites should be 0. Because you have 4 goldfish in a 15 gallon ammonia may be an ongoing problem for you. You say the fish are still small though so with good maintenance you may be able to keep it under control for the time being.


I hope to get a larger tank in the near future so it shouldn't be a long term problem. The largest Oranda is just under 2 inches, that's including the tail.



snail said:


> There are a few reasons for this. Tanks at LFS often share a filter system and water can flow between tanks so what may look like several small tanks may really be more like a great big tank which spreads bio load and makes for more stable conditions. Their tanks are already cycled. Some LFS have very powerful filter systems and/or do frequent, even daily large water changes. They have a high turn over so they don't need to worry about growth rates, adult size, or even the long term health of the fish (and goldfish will often survive in less than perfect conditions). Finally most LFS have a very high death rate of fish. This may be beyond their control due to stress and bad conditions during transport but often they just consider it much easier and cheaper to replace dead fish than to provide better conditions.


Thanks for that detailed explanation!



snail said:


> If you could keep it to that it really wouldn't be bad for a goldfish tank, although as mentioned it is likely to climb again fairly quickly.


I just performed another test now, surprisingly its still at 0.25ppm but I'll try another test tomorrow morning.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

parry said:


> I just performed another test now, surprisingly its still at 0.25ppm but I'll try another test tomorrow morning.


That's good, if you are getting a larger tank you should be able to keep them going okay for a while. To keep them all as adults at least a 55gallon (200 liter) tank would be a good idea.

I'm very fond of goldfish but I haven't kept them since I was young, I had no idea about how long they live, how big they grow or the space they need to thrive then either, as you say you see the full tanks at the LFS and think you are giving them loads of room! Mine lived in a goldfish bowl to start with (cringe), the survivors ended up living in our pond eventually where they were very happy I'm glad to say.


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## parry (Apr 12, 2011)

snail said:


> That's good, if you are getting a larger tank you should be able to keep them going okay for a while. To keep them all as adults at least a 55gallon (200 liter) tank would be a good idea.


I've been looking at prices for a 200 litre, they're not to expensive actually1!



snail said:


> I'm very fond of goldfish but I haven't kept them since I was young, I had no idea about how long they live, how big they grow or the space they need to thrive then either, as you say you see the full tanks at the LFS and think you are giving them loads of room! Mine lived in a goldfish bowl to start with (cringe), the survivors ended up living in our pond eventually where they were very happy I'm glad to say.


The only other goldfish I've had is when I was younger in the dreaded goldfish bowl, had him for 8 years though!

Also strangely enough my ammonia readings are still on 0.25ppm!


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

parry said:


> Also strangely enough my ammonia readings are still on 0.25ppm!


Ok, that's good. If you can keep it under 1ppm then your fish should be okay. The goal is always 0 but 0.25ppm is pretty reasonable for goldfish.


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