# Well, I think I'm about to give up!



## flipper (Apr 21, 2011)

Well I might give up with the fish tank. We went out Friday and bought 5 Zebra danios to cycle the tank with and we now ony have 3 left. The first one I thought died from shock, he jumped out of the net as I transfered him from the bag to the tank. He seemed fine after he got in the tank but then yesterday morning we woke to a loss, So i figured it was from the stress of hitting the floor.
We get up this morning and sure enough there is another victim on the gravel. We have had this tank for about 7 weeks and all it seems to do is kill fish. The first nine died in three days. Then I went to a different pet store and they suggested I cycle the tank with goldfish. 24 goldfish and they slowly died off at 3 a day. I talked to a different fish store and told me the goldfish thing was totally crazy and I should have never done that.
So after the last goldfish died the tank ran a few days with nothing in it and I went and bought the 5 Danios this passed Friday. So here we are today down to 3 Danios and if they die off by the end of the week I think the tank will be drained and packed away. 
I dont know what else to do.*frown


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

They've been giving you terrible advice. 24 goldfish? How big is the tank? Goldfish are great to cycle with because they give off a whole lot of ammonia (dirty fish) which gets the cycle going, but 24 - what did they think you were trying to cycle, a bathtub? And were they having you do water tests to monitor the situation in the tank? If the ammonia gets too high it will kill anything eventually, even tough as boots comet goldfish. 
My understanding is that if the ammonia gets too high or the fish show signs of distress you do a partial water change to bring the ammonia down, and keep going. it has the effect of turning a big ammonia spike into a series of smaller spikes, which takes longer, but doesn't kill the fish. But without an ammonia test and partial water changes you're just driving toward an inevitable cliff with those fish. Certainly inevitable with 24 goldfish in one tank. 

But now that these fish have sacrificed their lives, don't drain the tank. Go out and get a set of water tests - most people like the master test set because eventually you'll need everything in there - and do an ammonia test when you get home. Is the ammonia high? Then do a partial water change. Are you using tap water conditioner before you add new water? If not, buy a bottle of that as well. You should be treating your tap water for chlorine and ammonia compounds before you add it so they don't hurt the fish when they're first added. The water company treats tap water with them to kill bacteria and algae and such, but they'll also hurt your fish - you probably know all this, but in case you don't...

Anyway, at this point you're probably 75% of the way there, and most of the heartache behind you, don't give up yet.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I understand the feeling. I think we have all been there to some level. What you've surffered has all been from really poor advice. At least the 5 Danios were a good idea, but the ammonia levels that they must've been exposed to when put in the tank may have been a little much to jump right into. 

I can't believe with the advice you did get, you didn't get any about water testing. Water testing is the only way to check your water and determine the status of the nitrogen cycle.

Don't give up.


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## flipper (Apr 21, 2011)

My tank size is a 26 gal bow front. I checked the ammonia level yesterday and according to it the level was between a 2 and a 3. I did a partial water change this morning after i found the victim. I did notice on the base of the one (fake) plant and the hose for the air that there is some stuff starting to grow on them, some kind of slime like, clear almost like egg sac substance.

The lady who told me to use the goldfish said it could take another couple dozen for me and it took her 13 doz. to cycle a 55 gal. I thought that was just mass murder.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

She's an idiot! Stay away from her and disregard her advice.


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## rtbob (Jul 18, 2010)

Keep up with the water changes. Get some Seachem Prime to use as your dechlorinator. It not only removes chlorine. Prime breaks the bond between chlorine and ammonia. It than changes the ammonia to non-toxic ammonium. The ammonium is still used as food for your establishing nitrifying bacteria. Prime also renders nitrite non-toxic. It is a great aid when cycling.

A good liquid test kit is a must when cycling and after the cycle is completed. Many here use the API Freshwater Master Kit. If the instructions are read and followed thoroughly this is a great kit. 

All is not lost. The person who recommended such a large number of goldfish for cycling could use some educating on proper WFC.


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## tinman (Nov 3, 2009)

Flipper, when we want something we have to go thru the huddles.

when you said Gold fish, do you mean gold fish or feeder fish ? 

ok, ill explain you as much as i know (if i meant something wrong please someone correct me) 

First off. did you clean the tank once the gold fish died ?? cause when fish die in that numbers it is very possible that they left behind some infection and it effects all your fish. so here is my suggestion. 

1. take out the remaining 3 danios and clean the whole tank everything rinse off everything. use dechlorinator and fill the tank with fresh water and get back the danios into the tank. 

Danios arent superfish but thy are very hardy, and i have seen them survive tanks with ammonia more than 4ppm. 

once you get back the 3 danios donot change any water for 2 weeks and then do a 25% change and check your params and if the ammonia is low then you can get 2 more danios and leave the tank running for 2 more weeks and do a 50% water change. 

the bacteria should get started now and no you can go ahead and start adding 2 fish every 2 weeks until you are stocked ( choose a little hardy fish to stock in the beginings and then whn you are completely done with the process of getting to a stable tank you can go for sensitive fish) 



Any kind of hobby iis supposed to teach us something  if we fail at that hobby only when we get tired of learning  and fish keeping of all teaches you "patience" 


Dont Give up dude. Good Luck


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## tinman (Nov 3, 2009)

and oh yea 

Best thing i would do .............. look if any of this forum members are close to you and request them for some filter media from their tanks

i dont think anyone would deny  and if you can get that,, you tank is cycled in a week  


Where are you from ?? 


and that lady who used 13 Dz of fish to cycle, i feel like slapping her.


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## flipper (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks Tinman, she gave me feeder goldfish. she said you will lose them but they are very cheep! And unfortunatly I did not clean the tank after the fish died. I have well water here, no water company to worry about. Right now my water is at 2 on the ammonia. I live in Northern Jersey.


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## tinman (Nov 3, 2009)

i will clean the tank or the infection will still be there way after you are done with cycling and there is a very good chance your dear and expensive fish will get infected (no surprise even if its after an year or so ) 

Feeder fish are very weak fish and are highly susceptible to disease. some people dont even like feeding these fish as their main fish might catch infection from eating them. 

so first step clean your tank get off everything and start fresh. if you follow proper techniques, you will have a nice infection free tank cycled in about a month.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Unless there is a chemical in the tank, all of that is not necessary. Very few things require a cleaning to that level and this is not one of them. Fish do not give off an infection just because they die. I would not go that route. The woman herself said that she went through a lot of gf. I would leave the Danios in there, do a water change and leave it. Test daily and decide based on the result. If ammonia is over 1, do a water change. Same for nitrites when they start to show. The goal is to try and keep it at 1 or below.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

wow 24 Goldfish to cycle a 26 gallon tank, if you are going to cycle a tank with Fish then you really should expect to lose some if not all, if you wanted to you could take out any fish you have left out and cycle it with the Amonia you still have in there when the Amonia and Nitrite have went away and you are left with just Nitrate stock slowly even 1 fish per month other than that as said before leave the fish in and do water changes with regular checks with a test kit.

I still can't believe they sold you 24 Goldfish but it is really beyond the realms on common sense, I see a lot of folks who work in Fish Shops say they get a bad deal with public opinion but when they are giving out advice like this it really drags them all down.

Some say Goldfish are good for cycling a tank as they have adapted to poor water conditions over the years but 24 in a 26 Gallon tank is far to much 3 or 4 would have done the job, If they Goldfish did survive you would have been cycling for ages to get the bacteria levels up to handle that much waste.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Flipper, I can defiantly understand how you feel. In 2 months, I have lost 2 flame gourami, 2 dwarf blue, 2 boesmani rainbows, one large gourami, and 2 goldfish. 
Its frustrating and yes you do feel like the hand of death. But you arent. 
Its bad advice from stores that were pushing product. That lady told you what to buy based on you having to comeback and buy more. Besides shes just wrong.. 
I dont trust, feeder goldfish. they are usually from a dirty overcrowded tank. (_so they could be carrying disease_) And the big question. If you get the cycling completed and still have surviving comets.. What are you going to do with them? 

Give what some of the more informed members here say a try and see if it works for you.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

flipper said:


> Well I might give up with the fish tank. We went out Friday and bought 5 Zebra danios to cycle the tank with and we now ony have 3 left. The first one I thought died from shock, he jumped out of the net as I transfered him from the bag to the tank. He seemed fine after he got in the tank but then yesterday morning we woke to a loss, So i figured it was from the stress of hitting the floor.
> We get up this morning and sure enough there is another victim on the gravel. We have had this tank for about 7 weeks and all it seems to do is kill fish. The first nine died in three days. Then I went to a different pet store and they suggested I cycle the tank with goldfish. 24 goldfish and they slowly died off at 3 a day. I talked to a different fish store and told me the goldfish thing was totally crazy and I should have never done that.
> So after the last goldfish died the tank ran a few days with nothing in it and I went and bought the 5 Danios this passed Friday. So here we are today down to 3 Danios and if they die off by the end of the week I think the tank will be drained and packed away.
> I dont know what else to do.*frown


Do a beaslbob build *old dude

start the tank with lotsa plants like anacharis and vals. plus some slower growers.

and let the plants take care of the tank.

seriously there are several threads on the "beaslbob" build and you should check those out.

still just my.02


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## mjsullivan204 (Jan 4, 2011)

Don't give up, we will help you!! No one told you about stress zyme to to cylce your tank? Or about good or bad algae or ammonia or nitrates? No fish until the tank is cycled!!! Run your filter and ( you didn't tell me tank size) and buy stress zyme (sell it at any fish store for a week). Then we should get a bubble filter and try to steal a small handful of gravel from somebody elses tank for the good bacteria. If not, run the filter and put the bottled streszyme in on the 1st, 7th and 14th days. What size tank do you have? Have the local store check your water and then after about 7 days you put in 2 fish they recommend (go online they have to be hardy tetras ect.) If they survive you can slowly add a fish or two a week. Your tank will not be liveable for at least 6 weeks for a whole show. Think about it as setting up a whole universe for your fish, you need all kinds of good bacteria and the fish give off some bad stuff which your filter and you doing water changes and vacuuming the botton and the bubbles which trap bad pollutants etc. etc. Have I overwhelming you? Its cheap and easy and if you let me know your tank size I can walk you by it!!! Trust me, you will love it and it is worth the setup headache.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

flipper said:


> I checked the ammonia level yesterday and according to it the level was between a 2 and a 3


Yikes! WC, WC, WC. Danger Will Robinson. Do you have a master test kit by chance that you can post up your other numbers as well?

Unfortunately, you have been given just some awefull advice. I've heard of bad advice before, but these are on the top of the list. Unreal.

Two other things come to mind. What is your temp like and are you running air in the tank. High NH3 and high temps is lethal.

You don't need to break anything down and start over. Just need to stay on top of water changes to get the NH3 way down.

Also, check your pH in both the tank and the tap. I'm on well water as well and my pH from the tap is < 6. No way I can just pour new water directly in the tank without aging it first.

Keep us updated on the progress. We'll get ya through it one way or the other.


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## Thacker (Apr 16, 2011)

13 dozen for a 55 gallon tank? wow!


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## jmodine (Apr 17, 2011)

ok here is the easiest way to cycle a tank with out killing innocent fishes. The first step is go buy a qater testing kit, not the cheap strips at walmart but the real ones for around 30 dollars at pet smart!!!!! next clean your tank thourghly because the fish that have died probably died from a disease, that means tank scrubbing filters (which bottle brushes and tooth brushes work great for that) heater anything that was in that tank could possibly be caring parasites or diseases, including substrate if it was sand buy some new sand but get it from homedepot or lowes (pool filter sand its already cleaned) if its gravel just boil it for about 30 minutes. After that buy some regualr amonia from kroger walmart doesnt matter it will cost about a dollar. For a 26 gallon i would add 3 tabble spoons every other day for about two weeks. At the same time go to pet smart or what ever fish store you have close to you and they will sell a bactaria supplement that has all of the bennificial bacteria you will need for a boost in the tank. add what the directions say for that tank. then add it again 1 week after you start over. by the third week use that kit I told you to buy to test chemical levels it should be balanced. next research the fish you want to put in there some fish dont like water to hard or to soft and putting them in there can kill them. Next try to find a private breeder to get your fish from not a mass breeder. Mass breeders use antibotics to keep fish alive in poor conditions ( sorry most pet shops buy from mass breeders) and a private breeders fish are healthy because they have antibodies naturally in them already so you shouldnt have anything for a mortality rate. thats the best advice you can get. My refrences are my 75 gallon 3 55 gallon 2 30 gallon and 3 ten gallon tanks. I also breed Jack dempseys if anyone is interested in buying any drop me a line


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

jmodine said:


> ok here is the easiest way to cycle a tank with out killing innocent fishes. The first step is go buy a qater testing kit, not the cheap strips at walmart but the real ones for around 30 dollars at pet smart!!!!! next clean your tank thourghly because the fish that have died probably died from a disease, that means tank scrubbing filters (which bottle brushes and tooth brushes work great for that) heater anything that was in that tank could possibly be caring parasites or diseases, including substrate if it was sand buy some new sand but get it from homedepot or lowes (pool filter sand its already cleaned) if its gravel just boil it for about 30 minutes. After that buy some regualr amonia from kroger walmart doesnt matter it will cost about a dollar. For a 26 gallon i would add 3 tabble spoons every other day for about two weeks. At the same time go to pet smart or what ever fish store you have close to you and they will sell a bactaria supplement that has all of the bennificial bacteria you will need for a boost in the tank. add what the directions say for that tank. then add it again 1 week after you start over. by the third week use that kit I told you to buy to test chemical levels it should be balanced. next research the fish you want to put in there some fish dont like water to hard or to soft and putting them in there can kill them. Next try to find a private breeder to get your fish from not a mass breeder. Mass breeders use antibotics to keep fish alive in poor conditions ( sorry most pet shops buy from mass breeders) and a private breeders fish are healthy because they have antibodies naturally in them already so you shouldnt have anything for a mortality rate. thats the best advice you can get. My refrences are my 75 gallon 3 55 gallon 2 30 gallon and 3 ten gallon tanks. I also breed Jack dempseys if anyone is interested in buying any drop me a line


So any time a fish dies you pull everything out and boil it? Way too drastic and not necessary unless there is a proven disease in the tank. I think your method leaves out a lot of detail, like what kind of ammonia to buy. A lot more to it, to be safe, than what you imply.


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## Justonce94 (Apr 23, 2011)

Don't Give Up! Giving up isn't going to get you anywhere. Just because you failed doesn't mean you have to fail forever. And just because you've made a few mistakes doesn't mean your going to have to stay there forever either.

Just learn from your mistakes... Since you feel so down. I highly recommend the "Caring for your Aquarium" ebook. It's a nice book and the creator made the same mistakes you made and after learning more about aquariums she decided to publish a book teaching people how to make there first aquarium without making all those mistakes. Unfortunately, you already made those mistakes. But don't stay down. I'm sure this book will help you. 

You can get the book from the tinyurl below


Welcome to our website! - CaringForYourAquarium.com

I hope I helped!


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## jmodine (Apr 17, 2011)

No but when you buy that many fish and they all die so quickly something is wrong. your making assumptions about what i said. cleaning the whole tank when a single or a couple fish die would be absurd. but 24 dying that quickly, even in a uncycled tank, something was wrong with the fish to begin with. If you cant tell what killed them so you know what to treat the tank for cleaning the whole tank is probably the best option.


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## flipper (Apr 21, 2011)

Quick Update! the final 3 danios are still going and for now the ammonia is down! WOOO HOOO

Keeping my fingers crossed!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Good to hear, Tom. Hang in there and keep up daily testing. Be prepared when the nitrites start to show and don't be surprised if you never see them.


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## 8878 (Apr 15, 2011)

Sometimes I want to go get a job in the aquatics department at a walmart just to take the job away from people like this lady...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Brad R. said:


> Sometimes I want to go get a job in the aquatics department at a walmart just to take the job away from people like this lady...


lol....good thought.


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## BlackBirdCD (Mar 17, 2011)

Now that the ammonia is going down, keep an eye out for the Nitrite spike - that's next. On the plus side, after the Nitrite spike you're almost out of the woods. 

But I have to agree, that's a ludicrous amount of Goldfish for that size tank. Not sure why she told you that.

If it makes you feel better, we have just gone through our first tank cycle (settled down about 3 weeks ago), and have successfully added new fish.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

flipper said:


> Quick Update! the final 3 danios are still going and for now the ammonia is down! WOOO HOOO
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed!


congrats!
glad to hear it.


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## Cat696 (Apr 27, 2011)

ok.. if this isn't a water quality problem, then I have no idea what the heck I am doing! And I have too much experience to think that is true! First things first. 1. What is it you are trying to cycle? (what sized tank?). 2. You HAVE to test your water to understand what you are dealing with to start, and to figure what your water can support in the first place. This means testing GH/KH, Amonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Oxygen, heavy metals, etc. 3. What kind of filter are you using? You will need all 3 kinds of filtration to have a successful tank experience. Chemical, Machanical and Biological. 
This is your starting point. Have patience. You can do this!


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## Socrates36 (Apr 28, 2011)

flipper said:


> The lady who told me to use the goldfish said it could take another couple dozen for me and it took her 13 doz. to cycle a 55 gal. I thought that was just mass murder.


What, 13 dozen? I have a 20 gallon and I only needed 2 little comet goldfish to start off the cycle. I know how you feel, the same thing happened to me, with the Danios. After my tank was set up for a week I added three Zebra Danios because I read that they are very hearty and good for cycling a tank. They all died overnight and it was due to ammonia in the tank. Since then I tried fishless cycling but failed miserably so I drained the tank and started over with 2 comet goldfish and at 2 months into the cycling, they are still doing fine. I recently added 2 Albino Paradise Fish and they are doing great too. For a while the ammonia got out of hand, and we have 1.0 ppm ammonia present in our tap water so water changes would not solve the issue so I purchased Seachem's Prime, a water conditioner and an ammonia detoxifier (also detoxifies nitrites/nitrates). It converts toxic ammonia into less toxic ammonium but only works for 24 hours so you should still do regular water changes. Also I read that if your pH is below 7.0 the ammonia converts automatically into ammonium and I'm pretty sure that's true because my fish have been living in 6.8 pH and have been fine, despite the current 2.0 ppm of ammonia present in the water. But of course getting your pH to a desired level isn't always easy due to hardness of your water and sometimes pH drops are only a temporary fix if you have certain water hardness/softness levels so it's always good to know the hardness of your water.


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## Zookeeper (Apr 27, 2011)

I've browsed the comments and didn't see this mentioned. I would just take the fish out and rinse everything in hot water, making sure to use a strainer with the gravel.

Fill it up, add your prime let it run for 2-4 hours or until the bubbles are out of the column. Stick your arm in and giving it a good swirl will speed this up. Add your danios.

Wait 24 hours, add Tetra Safe Start! Amazing stuff! Everything else is land based and will die off, this is marine bacteria. The 3 gups I got had ammonia poisoning when I got them and all 3 survived the cycle with this stuff. Add half the bottle to your tank and pour the rest behind your filter cartridge to give it a nice jump start ( I personally put 3/4 on my filter and cycled within 9 days but the 50/50 is recommended)

Do NOT do any water changes for 10-14 days, or until your test kit shows 0-0- 10 to 30. Your PH will appear to be wildly fluctuating when you test while the TSS is working but it's all fine I promise. The first few days ammonia can read up to 3 or 4 but again don't worry about it unless the fish seem stressed. If you do loose a fish, replace it ASAP to keep the ammonia levels stable to feed the bacteria. 

When you need to top off the tank do NOT use Prime! Instead I used Jungle brand water conditioner but nothing that binds ammonia. 

After 10-14 days do a big 50-75% water change, depending on your nitrates, and then follow your normal water change schedule using prime every water change. 

I promise if you follow these instructions your fish will be fine and in 2 weeks you can slowly (I space it by 2 weeks) add 1 or 2 fish to your stock until you are stocked.

Good luck! The first tank is always the hardest!!

ETA I would replace the filter cartridge when the tank is drained. They are cheap and you don't want to start with a diseased tank


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Zookeeper said:


> I've browsed the comments and didn't see this mentioned. I would just take the fish out and rinse everything in hot water, making sure to use a strainer with the gravel.
> 
> Fill it up, add your prime let it run for 2-4 hours or until the bubbles are out of the column. Stick your arm in and giving it a good swirl will speed this up. Add your danios.
> 
> ...


So if you start a cycle with a lot of fish and most of them die, the only option is to take everything out and clean it? They died because they were just feeder fish (very weak) and high ammonia levels. I don't understand the thought.

Plus, if you didn't catch it, the tank is stabilizing.


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## flipper (Apr 21, 2011)

My ammonia level is staying down and the fish fish seem happy. I only have the strip test kit for the nitrite and nitrate levels and they don't seem high yet. I have to get the liquid test kits.

Fingers are still crossed as the fish keep swimming!


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