# Is it really this hard?



## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

I started a tank almost 2 months ago and I've had alot of trouble with it. Only one fish from my original stock remains. The amount of waste in my tank is I believe high....even after water changes and my fish keep dying. Is a tank always this hard to maintain? I expected it to be a challenge but this is alot......btw I don't plan to give up at all.....I'm just wondering if its always this way for aquarium keepers


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

yasai6500 said:


> I started a tank almost 2 months ago and I've had alot of trouble with it. Only one fish from my original stock remains. The amount of waste in my tank is I believe high....even after water changes and my fish keep dying. Is a tank always this hard to maintain? I expected it to be a challenge but this is alot......btw I don't plan to give up at all.....I'm just wondering if its always this way for aquarium keepers


it was for me at first until I went with the planted setup.

From that point on I can't believe how easy it is to keep aquariums/fish.

my .02


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

No.. the first month or two while the tank first cycles is really a very hard learning curve. Once you get the tank running smoothly, the cycling is complete, and you've stocked your tank well, it is pretty much weekly water changes and daily feedings. The main problems you run into after that is when you decide to add another fish, and he brings a disease/parasite with him (which is why so many recommend quarantine tanks). It'll get much easier soon. 

Out of curiousity, what size tank do you have and what fish are in it right now? What filter are you running? Do you vacuum your gravel? After two months it _should_ be settling out unless you have it overstocked, or something is off.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a 30G w/ a hush filter...yes I vacuum my gravel....I have 7 tiger barbs and 1 sword tail.....


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yeah, it's just getting over the hump, so to speak. Once you're there its just keeping on top of things and not getting complacent. Regular maintenance is important to avoid issues.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

yasai6500 said:


> I have a 30G w/ a hush filter...yes I vacuum my gravel....I have 7 tiger barbs and 1 sword tail.....


You should be great after you get over the starting hump. One thing to watch is tiger barbs can be rather vicious. You may lose some fish due to their aggressiveness over time, but that's the price you pay for having such a fish. 
I'd guess another month in, and you'll be in the smooth sailing on your tank. Probably not even that long.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

ok. should I start adding plants then add fish later?


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

No it should not be too hard. If you want to give us some background on what you have been doing for the last few months and what has been going on with the fish then maybe we can point out somethings that might have caused problems. After all, everyone makes mistakes with their tanks but everyone should also learn from the mistake when they make it.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

yasai6500 said:


> ok. should I start adding plants then add fish later?


You can add plants anytime you like. They will only help reduce some of the toxins such as ammonia and nitrate from the water, but you need quite a few to put a big dent in it. Also plain aquarium gravel won't support all types of plants. There are some that do fine with normal gravel, but some need sand/soil/eco-complete/flourite or something similar for them to root well in. If you want to get some plants, decide whether you want to try and stick with gravel, add something else without tearing down the tank, or pull the tank down and restart the substrate. In your position, unless it would make the bottom ugly, I'd probably start with eco-complete and just mix it in with the gravel. It won't cloud the water up much, and is a very good substrate from what I hear. The other consideration is lighting. You really need about 2 watts (flourescent) per gallon. Most hoods don't support that, so you either have to buy, or retrofit your old hood, or hang a shop light over it. After that you stick some plants in, and enjoy! Some super easy ones are wisteria, vals, ludwigia, najas, java moss, and hygrophilia polyspermia. 

You may want to ask a tiger barb keeper if they will tolerate plants, or if you are limited to certain ones. I know many cichlids will tear up plants.. not sure about TBs though.

To finish the answer I should say that in starting a tank it will not start cycling without some source of ammonia in it, even with plants. You will either have to add a tough fish or two, or go with a fishless method. Some people will add small amounts of pure ammonia to their tank daily, and others add a flake of food a day to rot and produce ammonia. You could even add some ghost shrimp, which are very cheap ($0.38 here) and could start things off. After the cycling begins it takes about 1-2 months to finish, hence the reason so many people get so frustrated when they start a new aquarium. I got frustrated and I knew it was coming.

Good luck, and HTH


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## bmoore09 (Nov 20, 2010)

That MAY be too many fish for cycling. I am currently cycling a 30 gallon and have 5 Tiger Barbs. 7 with another fish may be producing too much ammonia for the new bacteria to keep up. Even with just 5 TBs I lost 2 of them in the first week. I replaced the two of them and now have had 5 healthy ones for 2 weeks. Just something to think about.


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## bmoore09 (Nov 20, 2010)

I also added some Seachem Stabilty after I lost the 2nd Tiger Barb. I know most people say it doesnt work, but I've seen some people online swear by it. So I figured I had nothing to lose. I used it for the recommended amount of time and didnt lose 1 fish after that. You may want to give that a try. Worked for me.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I think Stability 'fakes' the cycle for you. From what I have read about it it will add he bacteria to your tank but once you stop adding it then the bacteria end up dying cause they have no food. There is really no 'quick fix' for establishing a cycle except patience.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

Your fish died because they were in the tank as you cycled it, this is normal if you want to cycle with fish in it, you could have thrown a prawn and let it rot and cycled it that way then you would have had less fish deaths when you put them in, there is no set time on how long a tank takes to cycle but between 2 to 8 weeks is the average.

If it is Freshwater a.k.a Tropical fish you have just make sure your tank is at a good tempature, when doing water changes use a dechlorinator in the water you are adding or you may kill the good bacteria and your tank will be in a constant state of cycling, make sure the water you add is either the same temp as the water in the tank or a little hotter, when cleaning the stuff in your tank i.e. the decorations like ships etc etc use the water you remove from the tank don't use tap water, when removing the water for the water change siphon it out and clean the bottom of the tank also, buy 1 from your LFS, sand is always better as the fish poo and uneaten food falls between gravel and you miss it.

Get a half decent filter to clean the water and clean the filter media at water changes using water removed from the tank, don't overstock your tank either.

Get a test kit and see what your water is like Amonia+Nitrite are bad, Nitrate is bad in large doses if fish are kept in it for a long period of time(This is where the weekly water change helps) try to keep it as low as you can but don't expect it to go away, you can get some live plants to help with things like Phosphate and Nitrate but don't expect this to be the answer.

If you have the cash to spare you can get a cannister filter, they are kept outside the tank so you won't have a big filter in the tank and you can toss things like Phosphate remover or carbon in it and they are better filters also.

If you are unsure about using the test kits your LFS should have no problem explaining it.

I thinkI have covered most of the basics I'm sure if I have missed anything someone here will add a post.

1 golden rule I use with tanks is tap water should never be put in a tank straight from the tap, it should always be treated first, you tank should be at the end or near teh end of it's cycle get the test kit make sure your water is good and good luck.

My personal favourite Freshwater fish is the Albino Bristlenose, an Eye-Catching fish, looks so weird it's beautiful and cleans Algae, I used to stroke mines and it just sat there happy for me to do it, stay away from the common plec they grow huge and you are only punishing the poor thing.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

yasai6500 said:


> I started a tank almost 2 months ago and I've had alot of trouble with it. Only one fish from my original stock remains. The amount of waste in my tank is I believe high....even after water changes and my fish keep dying. Is a tank always this hard to maintain? I expected it to be a challenge but this is alot......btw I don't plan to give up at all.....I'm just wondering if its always this way for aquarium keepers


Can you post current test results? Most of us had some level of trouble, depending on your definition, in the first 2 months, but it is usually over by then....the major hurdle anyway.

Are you still having major issues?


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Can you post current test results? Most of us had some level of trouble, depending on your definition, in the first 2 months, but it is usually over by then....the major hurdle anyway.
> 
> Are you still having major issues?


I am not having major issues at this moment.....I did a water change today and I noticed that the waste in the gravel was different than usual does that mean anything? current test results are: GH- 60-120 KH-40-80 nitrite -0 nitrate - 20 Ph- 6.5-7


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

Amie said:


> No it should not be too hard. If you want to give us some background on what you have been doing for the last few months and what has been going on with the fish then maybe we can point out somethings that might have caused problems. After all, everyone makes mistakes with their tanks but everyone should also learn from the mistake when they make it.


What I have done: I bought the tank approx 2 months ago.....I did the flake food thing then added fish a week after I bought the tank. I added some albino sharks....they seemed to do well so I added 5 TB 2 weeks later. 1.5 to 2 weeks later I had a die-off so all of my fish died except 1 TB. Weeks later, I added 2 swordtails.......then 4 TB's. The female swordtail died....but her eyes where missing so I though that might have been the TB's. I later added 3 more TB's to make my total 7TB's and 1 swordtail. that is where I stand right now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. (I also added a plant to the mix a while back. It seems to be doing fine)


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

Idk,if you were to ask me you might have too many fish,or adding fish too soon,or be adding too much fish.But you just can't depend on the eye of the tiger...


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## swampcat874 (Dec 12, 2010)

When you clean filter are you replacing all filter material ? I do not know what a Hush filter is? 

You should start with some cheap fish 2-3 . Don't add fish for a month, fish live, slowly start adding fish 2 at a time over periods of time (couple weeks) . _Take it slow_, build Bacteria Colony. Its tempting to rush , but this leads to dead fish. 

Your filter needs media for Good Bacteria to colonize , This media does not get replaced, but rinsed in fish water removed from tank during a water change, and placed back into filter. I use Lava Rock* and Bio Max* ( ceramic Rings ). This is the secret , _Bacteria_, I have fish that are 12 to 15 years old, I use very inexpensive stuff, my filter media* for this purpose is also around 15 years old gets a rinse once in a while in used tank water.

Water changes are also a must .


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I see a few problems:
First you started off great doing the flake food thing but I think you might have created a big problem when you added the fish. Doing that for a week might have been just enough time for ammonia to start building up in the tank. So the fish got added into the ammonia. Then when the ammonia started getting converted to nitrites (highly deadly for fish) that is probably when they all started dying. 

There are a few things you can do in the future to help combat this problem: 1. when establishing the cycle in a tank do it completely without fish 2. When you do start adding fish do it slowly. Only 2 or 3 at a time and wait a few weeks between adding more.

Also, you should do some more research on the fish you keep and how many for your tank and things like that. I could be wrong but I don't think albino sharks like to be kept together like that. Also, most sharks are usually bottom feeders and can starve to death if you don't provide them with a sinking food. 

I have not kept tigers so I'm not sure about their compatibility with swordtails but I think a lot of fish will eat other fish after they die anyway.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What are your ammonia test results? A fishless cycle is just that- without fish. Fish cannot be added until the process of establishing the bacteria is completed.

If you are using test strips, do yourself a favor and get rid of them. My guess is you still have ammonia in your tank and probably had a pretty high amonut of it when you added fish and the reason they died. Your initial process could be over and your tank may have stabilized, but without complete and accurate test results it's difficult to tell. Need ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate results. Preferrably from a liquid test kit.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Fishy cycles can be tough as you have witnessed. Though not impossible. You have to really stay on top of the game when doing one. And you popped a doosey with the amount of fish you had in there. It happens. See it all the time actually.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> What are your ammonia test results? A fishless cycle is just that- without fish. Fish cannot be added until the process of establishing the bacteria is completed.
> 
> If you are using test strips, do yourself a favor and get rid of them. My guess is you still have ammonia in your tank and probably had a pretty high amonut of it when you added fish and the reason they died. Your initial process could be over and your tank may have stabilized, but without complete and accurate test results it's difficult to tell. Need ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate results. Preferrably from a liquid test kit.


I have a liquid test kit for ammonia. It reads zero. Has been for weeks


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

Amie said:


> I see a few problems:
> First you started off great doing the flake food thing but I think you might have created a big problem when you added the fish. Doing that for a week might have been just enough time for ammonia to start building up in the tank. So the fish got added into the ammonia. Then when the ammonia started getting converted to nitrites (highly deadly for fish) that is probably when they all started dying.
> 
> There are a few things you can do in the future to help combat this problem: 1. when establishing the cycle in a tank do it completely without fish 2. When you do start adding fish do it slowly. Only 2 or 3 at a time and wait a few weeks between adding more.
> ...


The male swordtail seems to be doing fine.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

Get the gravel out and replace it with sand.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

If I read right you're reading Ammonia=0ppm, Nitrite=0ppm, Nitrate=20ppm. If those are what you're getting you ARE through the nitrogen cycle, and things should be much better. Just limit yourself to adding 2, maybe 3 fish every couple of weeks, so bacteria has a chance to catch up to the new level of fish each time, and you should be good. Just watch out when adding new fish to properly acclimate them (float them about 20 minutes while adding little amounts of your tank water to their bag every few minutes) and watch for any diseases they bring in. Once you get all the fish you want, I think you'll find things pretty smooth. Then you get algae. *r2


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

verdifer said:


> Get the gravel out and replace it with sand.


Uh, why? Gravel hosts bacteria colonies just fine. Did I miss something?
I think changing substrates or filters now that things have stabilized would be a very, very bad idea.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

> Uh, why? Gravel hosts bacteria colonies just fine. Did I miss something?


Yeah you seem to have missed that along with this they also host uneaten food and the fish poo so the goodness of teh bacteria is off-set by the rubbish rotting away in it.



> I think changing substrates or filters now that things have stabilized would be a very, very bad idea.


Nobody said change filters, and as I said fish poo and uneaten food falls in the gravel so you think wrong, you can vacuum the gravel but you tend to run out of time before you can finish as the bucket is full at water change.

3 points here.

1: Yes there will be bacteria but good luck to it, it will have to cycle the Amonia from what falls in it, if there is a load of it falling in then it won't keep up.

2: The gravel is not the only thing in there with bacteria if it is then a re-think of the tank setup needs done, the filter media will host most of the bacteria.

3: Sand is easier to clean.

If you want to get picky Gravel also plays about with the Ph as it leeches into the water, no big deal but something that happens.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

mfgann said:


> If I read right you're reading Ammonia=0ppm, Nitrite=0ppm, Nitrate=20ppm. If those are what you're getting you ARE through the nitrogen cycle, and things should be much better. Just limit yourself to adding 2, maybe 3 fish every couple of weeks, so bacteria has a chance to catch up to the new level of fish each time, and you should be good. Just watch out when adding new fish to properly acclimate them (float them about 20 minutes while adding little amounts of your tank water to their bag every few minutes) and watch for any diseases they bring in. Once you get all the fish you want, I think you'll find things pretty smooth. Then you get algae. *r2


I already have ridiculous amounts of diatoms in my tank.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

verdifer said:


> Yeah you seem to have missed that along with this they also host uneaten food and the fish poo so the goodness of teh bacteria is off-set by the rubbish rotting away in it.


Yes, and in my plain gravel tank, I siphon off most of the crude each week. 



> Nobody said change filters, and as I said fish poo and uneaten food falls in the gravel so you think wrong, you can vacuum the gravel but you tend to run out of time before you can finish as the bucket is full at water change.


I just wanted to say his tank seemed settled, and perhaps letting it sit as is for a little bit may be a good idea.



> 3 points here.
> 
> 1: Yes there will be bacteria but good luck to it, it will have to cycle the Amonia from what falls in it, if there is a load of it falling in then it won't keep up.


I've never had trouble with a tank keeping up when using pure gravel and doing a siphon vacuum each week. The bacteria colony will grow to whatever size it needs to consume the ammonia available. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to add new fish.


> 2: The gravel is not the only thing in there with bacteria if it is then a re-think of the tank setup needs done, the filter media will host most of the bacteria.


Well, actually in one tank I have a beaslbob build where ALL the bacteria is in the substrate.. but I would agree that in a standard setup a lot of it can live in the filter as well.



> 3: Sand is easier to clean.


On this I am simply ignorant. I never could figure out how you would clean sand. A siphon vacuum would pick it up wouldn't it? How DO you clean sand? This is a stupid question I've wondered for quite some time.



> If you want to get picky Gravel also plays about with the Ph as it leeches into the water, no big deal but something that happens.


Could be a big deal, depending on what you keep. I've thought about doing a CRS tank, which would need a low stable pH.

I am not arguing whether sand is BETTER or not. I have not done pure sand before, so I wouldn't know. I've thought about it, but just never tried it. I was just saying that with his tank just now stabilizing it would not be a great time to go changing around things that host beneficial bacteria. Many people keep fish for years with nothing but gravel, as I have. I am just now beginning to venture beyond that, but mainly to keep plants.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

yasai6500 said:


> I already have ridiculous amounts of diatoms in my tank.


They'll burn off soon, and be replaced by more traditional algaes. Some otos, a bristlenose pleco, shrimp or snails will help you then. Or you could add lots of live plants, which tend to eat up nutrients so the algae has less to consume.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So if you are done cycling just keep up on the maintenance. Get a gravel vacuum. Do the left side one week and the right side the next and so on. Be smart with your filter maintenance. 35-50% water change a week.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

I already have a gravel vacum and I'm doing changes once a week......also, is it normal for the bully of my TB's to have all the other fish in the school so "scared" that they are all crammed in a single cave?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mfgann said:


> If* I read right you're reading Ammonia=0ppm, Nitrite=0ppm, Nitrate=20ppm. If those are what you're getting you ARE through the nitrogen cycle, and things should be much better*. Just limit yourself to adding 2, maybe 3 fish every couple of weeks, so bacteria has a chance to catch up to the new level of fish each time, and you should be good. Just watch out when adding new fish to properly acclimate them (float them about 20 minutes while adding little amounts of your tank water to their bag every few minutes) and watch for any diseases they bring in. Once you get all the fish you want, I think you'll find things pretty smooth. Then you get algae. *r2


Hopefully that is so.

But that is not necessairly true. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites with some nitrates is a typical plant based cycle where the plants (or algae) are consumeing the ammonia but the bacteria has not build up yet. So the cycle is still progressing.

the low pH is a sign the plant life is not fully removing the co2.

I understand there is diatoms and other algaes showing up. Which would fit with my observations.

so what does the mean? could be cleaning up the tank and removing the algae could result in ammonia spikes and possible fish deaths.

Dern I'm so negative. But that is one possibility *old dude

and hopefully I am wrong. 

my .02


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Hopefully that is so.
> 
> But that is not necessairly true. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites with some nitrates is a typical plant based cycle where the plants (or algae) are consumeing the ammonia but the bacteria has not build up yet. So the cycle is still progressing.
> 
> ...


Hmm.. I only saw one plant that he mentioned adding, though maybe I glossed over it. I interpreted it as a tank just now reaching the end of the bacterial growth being able to keep up with the tank's population. 

As for TBs behavior, I've never kept them because they don't really behave very well  No idea if it is 'typical' for one to bully the rest in a cave, but I know they'll bully other fish to death.


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

Sand is easier to clean as the stuff you want out of the tank sits on top of it not in-between it.

bacteria will go on the sand also, I just believe sand is better because of what I said and you can miss a lot with gravel, on smaller tanks it can be a pain as your water which you want to take out have came out before you have had the chance to go over all the gravel.

I'm prob being a bit biased I just think gravel looks cheap.


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## yasai6500 (Oct 19, 2010)

alrite thanks for the help hopefully it'll work out fine


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