# "Female" shoal now breeding in community tank.



## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Can anyone give me any advice please? 

I've had a shoal of 4 female Betta in my 100 liter tank for a year or so. Over the last few weeks there has been much fighting but no injuries. Had no idea why.

Tonight i watched a bubble nest being made then mating beneath it. I now know why the war *#3 One of the "girls" must be a boy. He is now tending his nest and attacking anything he considers a threat. 

Unfortunately he considers everything else in the tank a threat! There are 3 female Betta, 4 panda cory, 3 Platy, 2 striata loach and a bristlenose plec that are now getting attacked if they come out of hiding.

HELP!

Any thoughts, questions or advice welcomed!

Bis


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Closest one I found to a female looking male is this one.








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I've posted a few bad images in my gallery. 

It still looks female to me but it was breeding with one of the others and is now tending "her" bubble nest full of eggs.

I guess if they hatch I know she is a he


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## fishfinder (Aug 31, 2008)

I would say she looks like a female halfmoon to me. Bettas are ready to breed at a very young age, blowing bubble nests, and trying to jump into the female quarters when just a few weeks old. If it were a male, you would have noticed breeding behavior prior to this since they've been together for over a year.

I have heard of female bettas building bubble nests and guarding the eggs before. So that's my guess. Let us know if you get fry.

BTW, she is a beauty!


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

fishfinder said:


> I would say she looks like a female halfmoon to me. Bettas are ready to breed at a very young age, blowing bubble nests, and trying to jump into the female quarters when just a few weeks old. If it were a male, you would have noticed breeding behavior prior to this since they've been together for over a year.
> 
> I have heard of female bettas building bubble nests and guarding the eggs before. So that's my guess. Let us know if you get fry.
> 
> BTW, she is a beauty!


Maybe this is the answer. Fry or no fry will be the decider. Maybe a placat male if we get fry?


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

Looks like a plakat male and I would definitely remove those bettas from your tank. They need not to be in the same tank let alone a community tank. Sorry about the inconvenience but some fish are going to die if there are fry and the male is trying to defend them. Not to mention that the parents are liable to kill each other during the spawning process. It is never wise to keep male and female bettas in the same tank and with the similarity in plakat males and halfmoon females many petstores will make some mistakes. The only way to be sure with the fish that way is to deal direct with the breeders. But to trust a petstore, no way. A well meaning employee could have looked at that fish and said "I know it is labeled a male but it sure looks female to me" and changed the label. But that sure looks like a plakat male to me and with the bubblenest I would almost gaurantee it.

So some fish need to move and it would be my recommendation to move the male betta out now. He will not be happy but it will at least save the rest of your fish. My next recommendation would be to get the rest of the bettas out of there but NOT in with the male. Problem being that you cannot put them together in a small tank as they will attack each other until all but one are dead or injured seriously. You can get a 10 gallon and divide it off in three sections with one in each but that would be the smallest and no real gaurantee as I have seen them jump dividers if they want to get at each other.

This is a very serious situation and needs to be done soon. I am hoping that this is not too late already.

Please let us know how this comes out.

Rose

That picture is definitely one of a white PK (plakat) male betta Please take some of those fish out as if there are fry in that tank by that time some of those fish will be dead. Your cories, your loach, and your pleco are definitely at risk and this is not a question it is a fact.


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## fishfinder (Aug 31, 2008)

Good luck with your predicament.


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## fishfinder (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm assuming that the picture only similar to what you have in your tank. Chickadee is right, PK stands for plakat. (sorry I missed the PK) And it is best to remove your betta guarding the nest right away. Either way, a plakat male or overly agressive female is a threat to your other tank inhabitants. Can you get pics of the actual fish? My curiosity is kicking in now. I still find it odd that this problem only popped up recently after being together in a tank for a year.


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Chickadee said:


> Looks like a plakat male and I would definitely remove those bettas from your tank. They need not to be in the same tank let alone a community tank. Sorry about the inconvenience but some fish are going to die if there are fry and the male is trying to defend them. Not to mention that the parents are liable to kill each other during the spawning process. It is never wise to keep male and female bettas in the same tank and with the similarity in plakat males and halfmoon females many petstores will make some mistakes. The only way to be sure with the fish that way is to deal direct with the breeders. But to trust a petstore, no way. A well meaning employee could have looked at that fish and said "I know it is labeled a male but it sure looks female to me" and changed the label. But that sure looks like a plakat male to me and with the bubblenest I would almost gaurantee it.
> 
> So some fish need to move and it would be my recommendation to move the male betta out now. He will not be happy but it will at least save the rest of your fish. My next recommendation would be to get the rest of the bettas out of there but NOT in with the male. Problem being that you cannot put them together in a small tank as they will attack each other until all but one are dead or injured seriously. You can get a 10 gallon and divide it off in three sections with one in each but that would be the smallest and no real gaurantee as I have seen them jump dividers if they want to get at each other.
> 
> ...


Update:

I've removed the aggressive Betta (pics in my gallery) into my 30 liter quarentine tank. I would move all of them but I already have a male betta in my main tank. 

So, Definate girls still in 100 liter community tank and moody one alone. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

fishfinder said:


> I'm assuming that the picture only similar to what you have in your tank. Chickadee is right, PK stands for plakat. (sorry I missed the PK) And it is best to remove your betta guarding the nest right away. Either way, a plakat male or overly agressive female is a threat to your other tank inhabitants. Can you get pics of the actual fish? My curiosity is kicking in now. I still find it odd that this problem only popped up recently after being together in a tank for a year.


There are 3 bad pics of the actual fish in my gallery.


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Hi everyone,

So as not to confuse people, the 3 pics I have just added to my gallery are the Male in my main tank. 

He's the reason no other betta can go in that tank (Tank1).
The "female/male" is now in quarantine (Tank3) and the remaining females are left where they were (Tank2). They are squabbling and flaring a bit but I'm hoping that's just them deciding the new pecking order now the "Boss" has gone.

Also, I have another question. (Sorry)

Is there any way of sexing betta by the genetalia? For example when my mollies are breeding the females get white patches around the genital opening while the males don't. Does this happen with Betta? (I know there are easier ways to sex mollies)

Thanks in advance


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

I cannot guarantee that the other fish in the tank will be safe with the bubblenest intact so you should destroy that if it is still there. 

Yes female bettas will get an "egg spot" too but if they are light colored it is sometimes hard to see. They also get a definite swelling in the area behind their dorsal fins. You will notice when a female betta is egg full. I do not know that this is foolproof but that is the best way.

Now that the plakat males are becoming available more, they did not used to be common, it is more important than ever to make sure you know your vendor and trust that they know what they are doing. Buying from local BREEDERS that you know and trust is the very best way to buy and when you do buy from a petstore, it is better to buy from a person that you have had dealings with before or who an experienced hobbyist has recommended. 

There are very good dealers to buy from online as well who are reputable and they sell good and great quality fish, but the downside to this is still the high cost of shipping. But you can at least be sure dealing with those who are reputable in this manner that you will get what you pay for. I will caution you that even on aquabid or ebay though that it is possible to be given fish who have been inbred to the point of ill health or to be sent fish by inexperienced breeders who do have the slightest idea how to pack and ship fish and have one or more arrive dead. Here again KNOW YOUR VENDOR or make sure that someone you trust has recommended them from their own personal use, not just from seeing their merchandise. They need to recommend them from actually owning fish that they have sent so they can say what the health quality of the fish is, what the general nature of the fish is, and how the fish arrived and if the fish is no longer with them just how long it lived. Of course you want to make sure the person that you are asking is good with their fish too.

I am not lecturing or trying to make anyone feel bad. This is for information only.

Rose


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Thank You everyone for all the help!

Update....

I'm 99% sure the Betta moved to quarentine is a short finned male. I've never seen such an aggresive fish. It spends most of it's time attacking and flaring at the thermometer or certain plants!

The females seem to have sorted their differences and my mutant dorsal-less crowntail seems to have come out on top even though she's smaller. 

I destroyed the bubblenest after removing the betta protecting it and the eggs that fell out were promptly eaten by the other tankmates.

I think that covers everything. Any questions welcomed.

Bis


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank you for the follow up. It is always nice to know what happened to the situation. I am sure you are right. I have seen some ornery females but not defending bubblenests. I think you can depend on it that this is a Plakat Male and a tempermental one as well.

Congratulations on the ownership of them all and I am glad your females got their pecking order established with no bloodshed. You are so fortunate. Do keep us informed of their progress. It is always fun and interesting to hear of the betta tales of other owners and there are always the tales to be told that I know.

Good luck and hope all is well.

Rose


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Chickadee said:


> Thank you for the follow up. It is always nice to know what happened to the situation.
> 
> Good luck and hope all is well.
> 
> Rose


My only problem now is my quarentine tank is now a male Betta tank.

Might have to get another tank  *r2


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

*r2Yes it does turn out that way occasionally. That is how I ended up having 7 tanks with 9 of them in them at one time. Dividers, dividers, dividers!

Rose

Happy 4th of July!


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

Chickadee said:


> *r2Yes it does turn out that way occasionally. That is how I ended up having 7 tanks with 9 of them in them at one time. Dividers, dividers, dividers!
> 
> Rose
> 
> Happy 4th of July!


I AM SOO STUPID SOMETIMES!

I have a Divider still in it's box for tank2 (female Betta tank now.)

That might have made life easier! Bubblenest and Male given 1/4 of tank? 

Not 4th of July here for hours! lol

Bis


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

Not here yet either but you wouldn't know it for the sound of the fireworks for 2 days now. No sleep tonight.

Well they only get to play with them for one more day then it is over.

Not stupid at all. I just remembered that when I wrote it and could have recommended it earlier. DUH!!*#3*r2

Rose


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Rose, I just wanted to chime in here, that I have a friend that had pk's and he had one instant where the female killed the male right after breeding and the female took over the nest, taking care of the eggs and also taking care of them right after hatch.

You may know him, he is involved with the IBC. Gerald Griffen. He is a member of our local club. And we were discussing this at the last meeting.


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes I have heard of this but I do not think there was a male present anywhere else here or they would have been aware. No I am sorry I do not know your friend but would love to he sounds very interesting.

I knew of a person in my last forum who had a similar experience but since this member had no Betta killed or missing, I figured the one guarding the nest had to be the male with that temperament. *#3


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

It could be a very aggressive female. She could have tried breeding with another female and taken the role of a male getting very aggressive to her tank mates. Its very possible with pk's.


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## BisTheTall (Jun 20, 2009)

susankat said:


> It could be a very aggressive female. She could have tried breeding with another female and taken the role of a male getting very aggressive to her tank mates. Its very possible with pk's.


Possibly SusanKat but the reason I said I am 99% sure is I have never seen, what I now know is called, an Egg Spot on the "Male". All the other "females" have show this colouration.

Thanks for adding another possibility!


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## Chickadee (Nov 15, 2008)

I had a very aggressive female and she was the worst betta i ever had for aggression but she still showed the egg spot when it was time. I am fairly sure you would see one on this fish if it were female.

Rose

Here she was
url=http://www.aquariumforum.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2267&limit=last7]







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