# Son of a....



## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

Quick back story

Have a planted 10g. Planted with anachris, wisteria,java moss, vesuvious. Has 2 angel fish, 2inch bodies with finsaround 4 1/2 inches, 1 male guppy, 3 neon tetras, 1 bristle nose pleco 1inch, 1 white skirt tetra, 3 ghost shrimp, 4 black line tetras. Never ran a filter, my readpings were ; 
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
nitrate .5-5.0
PH 7.3

I do water changes 2x a week. Lighting is 25watts cfl. Have a 12in bubble wand. Had algae growing on the sides and some on the front of the tank. 

So in my infinite wisdom I broke down my tank to clean off the algae. Saved 7gallons of water washed my gravel in the remaining 3. Replanted the plants and moved my lava rock n castle around. Added in 3 gallons new water treated. Added back the water I kept and the fish. also broke down and bought a filter, Fluval 1plus submersible rated for 12g and puts out 50gph.

Well I awoke to find my 3 ghost shrimp white and lifeless at the bottom of the tank. Thought o crap what did I do and tested water. 

Amonia .5ppm
Nitrite 1.0ppm
Nitrate 10ppm
PH 6.6

Now I'm planning on a 3 gallon water change tomorrow and everyother day until my readings get back to normal. Any other ideas on what I can do to keep my fish alive? 

O yeah yes I'm over stocked and angel fish should have their own 10g min but hey it was set up like this for over a year with out a filter and I never had any issues. And my tank is 16inches tall x 9 inches back to front x 15 and 1/2 inches across(left to right) instead of the regular 12 for a 10g.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Dont know what to tell ya other than keep doing the PWC until its done with the mini cycle,and then do try to upgrade the tank soon.Did you change the filter media too?If so,thats whats happening.Rinsing the gravel and adding new media will throw you off pretty quick.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

No new filter, had the internal sponge thing floating in my tank for a week. My floors are being redone in 2-3 months and I already have my 55 waiting to be set up.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Well then I think all you can do is keep the levels good with waterchanges and wait for the 55.I am sure someone else will correct me if i am wrong,lol.But thats what I would do.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

water change, water change, water change...... Just shows how fragile small tanks are. A book I have says 10g tanks should never be used to house fish on a non-temp basis. Should just be a mini-cycle. I wouldn't feed.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

my thoughts are:

Day 1 water change
Day 2 test
Day 3 water change
Day 4 test
So on and so forth...


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I'd say congrats for keeping the tank balanced for so long but sooner or later it had to start having problems. Until your new tank is setup just do the water changes like you are and maybe stop feeding for a few days as was mentioned.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

so it turns out I had more then just 3 ghost shrimp in the tank. I just found the big one that had eggs on her when i got it chillen out in my java moss, of course she wont let me get a pic of her...so ive still got one ghost shrimp in there. Guess my tank isnt in terrible conditions if she is still alive n well. tomorrow is still gonna be water change day tho.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

From what I've read never "rinse" the gravel, if you have alge on the glass scrape or scrub it off and then do your WC to siphon some out. Or you can just go dark and cover the glass/tank for a couple days to kill it while still feeding and working on the tank as usual, just no light that's what helps the alge grow.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

i had been wanting to add some more gravel and rescape my tank anyway, so i thought a break down would just be easier. I was wrong.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Nope and when you move to the 55, seed the tank with a used filter from the 10G and I would even add the water/gravel/decor/ect... to help with the cycle.

If you're going to complete the cycle before moving the fish you can still seed with an old filter from the 10G. Maybe even save some of the water from the WCs once the parameters ae in line to help with cycling the new tank.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

when the 55 is getting set up i have 2 10gs that i will pull all gravel and plants from. along with the water from water changes. I wanna see the 55 up and running as fast as possible so my fish can be happier. My second 10g has my cray and a crab in it, but it is going to be a sump filter for my 55g. Its kinda gonna be a balancing act moving from one to the other while trying to keep it filtered and set up. I have 2 HOBs, and my 1 internal filter that will be in the 55g during cycling to try to speed it up as well.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

The water won't do a bit of good cycling a new tank, there is no beneficial bacteria in the water column.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

having the bacteria setting up on the dividers in my 10g sump and sides and bottom of tank along with the gravel will help tho...correct?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Moss doing well?


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## PolymerTim (Sep 22, 2009)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> having the bacteria setting up on the dividers in my 10g sump and sides and bottom of tank along with the gravel will help tho...correct?


Bacteria will adhere to every surface int he tank, but will you will get more on things with higher surface area. So there is a lot more bacteria on your gravel than your glass. Also, floss filters collect a lot because not only is there a large surface area, but they get a lot more food swept past them by the filter.

That said, even getting a small amount of bacteria in your new tank will get the process going faster than without. But the used filter and a little gravel (tie it in a mesh bag if you don't want to leave it there) will get you there faster.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

It does,a little,but if you look when you vac,the brown mulm you pick up from in the gravel.Thats what you need.Also,when you rinse the filter pad,notice the brown dust in the water?All that is what you need for the new tank.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Moss doing well?


im loving all the plants...so are my fish. My crayfish he thinks they are delcious as well. But doesnt eat the moss. 

How fast should a seeded tank expect to cycle? Using 2 filters, gravel, plants from my others. Again its a 55g. Im thinking a month to 6 weeks.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> How fast should a seeded tank expect to cycle? Using 2 filters, gravel, plants from my others. Again its a 55g. Im thinking a month to 6 weeks.


With all that you could be looking at 2-4wks. I would use ammonia and do it fishless. It'll make it go faster. Maybe as little as 1wk.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

If all you do is move the gravel filter and water,it shouldnt take that long.A few weeks at the most,is what mine have done.Just dont go rinse crazy with it.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

no just a quick in and out of the bucket....but that brown stuff is what i need? maybe i shouldnt even rinse, just drop that stuff right in...


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## verdifer (Sep 8, 2010)

I moved house and had to move my tank with me, even taking all the stuff out and putting it back causes a mini cycle, there will be bacteria in the water but bacteria needs to be stuck to something to work properly, any floating about just doesn't work properly, this is why water changes during cycling aren't an issue, you are only removing bacteria that isn't doing a job.

Putting in a new filter will lose you a good chunk of your bacteria, I would have used my old filter and new filter at the same time just to let the new filter catch up, or you could have used the filter media from the old 1 and stuck it in the new 1. 

You could go to your LFS and see if they could spare a piece of filter media with the bacteria in it from 1 of theres, I don't really understand why LFS have never sold filter from a cycled tank, they could get a big cannister filter and stuff it with filter floss then sell it off for a few dollars for folks just starting a new tank.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

so yesterday i did my second test since rescaping my tank. 

amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 5.0ppm
PH 6.2 - 6.4.

Now my tap is 7.4, my tank used to be around a 7.2. *Does adding alot of plants give you a lower PH? * 

Now i have a sea shell about 4in tall, soda can around i think its a conch(spelling) shell. I dont wanna put it in but i know that will raise my ph. Im going to do a test of the how much it will raise ph in my buckets. 

So i gues the question is how do I get my PH back where it was w/o chemicals. I would like to get it stable at 7 to 7.2.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Have you tried taking a glass of your water and setting it aside and testing it a day later? Some will drop naturally when the water gasses out a little. Try it and see to determine if your drop is happening from that or something in your tank.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Have you tried taking a glass of your water and setting it aside and testing it a day later? Some will drop naturally when the water gasses out a little. Try it and see to determine if your drop is happening from that or something in your tank.


doing this now. 2 buckets filled with tap sitting in a corner one with nothing one with the sea shell. 

now i just retested my PH today, 2 days after water change. 
tap is 7.2-7.4.
ok i was wrong, tank is a 6.4 today. not the 7.6 like i earlier said. musta added an extra drop to the tube.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

so once again...SON OF A....

tap 7.2
bucket with tap sitting for 48hrs 7.2
bucket with sea shell setting for 48hrs. 7.6
tank 48hrs later 6.4

so i was like hm...i wonder why...then i remembered that i added new substrate to my tank. its a white rock I got with my 55g i got off craigslist. before i just had blue glass balls and ovals. That is lowering my PH to the 6.4. It was the substrate from a tutle tank and I have no idea what it is. adding the seashell didnt really change the bucket PH so im not gonna drop it into my tank. To further test this i checked the PH in my crayfish tank, which is slate and the white substrate. 6.4PH...Bingo figured it out. STUPID substrate. I was going to use it in my 55g when i set it up, something like 10gallons(2-5gallon buckets of it) but now im going to find something else. 

my next question is how do i remove ALL my substrate and replace with new w/o making a huge mess/cycling my tank, having to replant all my plants. I'm guessing im going to have to break them down again but I dont really want to. 

The PH I would like to have around 7, my fish arent showing any signs of stress from the lower pH its just not what they are used to. and I dont really wanna take them from the 7.6 they were at to the 6.4 back to a 7.6 as i figure that will shock them to bad.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, so what is causing the ph drop again? 

Removing the gravel is fairly easy. I took a big plastic cup, like what you could get at McDonald's, and scooped it out, cup by cup. I replaced mine with Eco...no need to rinse and saves tons of time.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

It seems unusual for a stone substrate to cause PH to drop. What makes more sense to me is that you have a low KH and the cycle that been going through has caused a PH crash. KH helps to buffer the PH preventing swings. Shells or lime stone can raise KH.

EDIT: This isn't my area of expertise though so look into it and see if that makes sense.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm going to add the same gravel to my bucket of tap water and see f it drops as well. I dont have a test kit for water hardness might go pick one up today if the weather allows it


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm with snail, the little bit I know would tend to indicate that any stone or shell that has the capacity to dissolve in water would tend to up the buffering capacity - maybe a dolomite or limestone or something with calcium content, but nearly nothing else can dissolve. 

Plus a drop in PH indicates greater acidity (am I right? I sometimes get this flipped) and calcium consumes acidity, so things like dolomite and shell should cause the acidity to drop on their own, so I'm thinking that rise in acidity was something else. 

If I'm doing my dyslexic thing with PH again, reverse all my advice - lol*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> I'm going to add the same gravel to my bucket of tap water and see f it drops as well. I dont have a test kit for water hardness might go pick one up today if the weather allows it


I don't think gravel is doing it. If gravel could do that many people would be using that method. Your ph may be swinging up and down, but it's not the gravel. Lowering ph is always a problem as there are not many ways to safely do it. Raising ph is different and very easy to do.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Something to do with organics breaking down can cause a rapid drop in PH. I'll see if I can find more info.

Is this the tank with no filter?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

snail said:


> Something to do with organics breaking down can cause a rapid drop in PH. I'll see if I can find more info.
> 
> Is this the tank with no filter?


It just got a filter a few weeks ago. I was running it w/o and it stayed around 7.2 - 7.4pH. Now after adding in the new rock and adding the filter it drops down to a 6.2-6.4. 

I have 2 buckets set up both 3 gallons sitting out one with just tap water in it(7.2pH) one with tap water and a sea shell (7.6pH). It has been sitting for something like 72hrs and no change. 

I just added a cup of the rock to the regular tap and im going to wait till 24hrs is up to retest. 

The whole reason i think its the rock is that my tank always stayed 7.2-7.4. My crayfish tank only ever had this rock and slate and is the same as my tank now 6.2-6.4. My community tank has no slate in it. There has been no plumbing work done at the house or on the street so i dont know why as of me replanting my tank and adding more rock substrate that it would change. 


Now that i think about it i do have a new dechlorine and chloramine product. Its Start Right by jungle labs. It contains aloe vera, sodium chloride and polyvinylpyrrolidone <----The hell is that... could this product be causing it to drop?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

None of the water conditioners should affect ph.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

I wonder if this used gravel I got with my tank is like side walk and landscaping gravel. O well I will check my ph tomorrow n see ...


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

so my pH is till sitting at 6.4.. so the angelfish are happy, my crayfish tho needs to be above 7 according to a bluecrayfish only forum. The buckets i have sitting out one with tap and substrate is still at 7.2, the one with the the seashell and tap water is sitting at 7.4. Now these have been out since last week. Why did my tank pH crash down to the 6's and a bucket of tap water keeps the pH.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

You don't have to change the water you are using for the PH to change, organics breaking down in the water produce acid and when the buffering capacity of your water runs out the PH will drop rapidly. So if you have soft water or do few water changes the tank it is prone to PH crashes. It's never really been an issue for me because I have hard water.

It's explained better by this guy:



> OK. I'll take up the buffering bit.
> 
> In simple terms ... The water you first put in your tank contains minerals, one of which is HCO3- (bicarbonate), which happens to be the main buffer in FW system. H+ (hydrogen ions = acid) reacts with the HCO3- to make CO2 (which escapes the tank). As long as you have HCO3- in your tank, it will eat up any H+ produced, and your pH won't change (much). BTW, when there is a shortage of H+, the buffer system can also gives off H+, so your pH won't rise much either.
> 
> ...


It came from here:Why did my PH drop ? - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Have you ever tested the kh of your water?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

no never picked up the test kit. maybe this week.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I think if you have a low PH you would be safe just adding something as a buffer like shells or dolomite, (liquid buffers are not usually a good idea unless you really know what you are doing because they are not stable enough). Not too much at once, so the ph doesn't swing too quickly the other way. 

Do you use any filter on your tap water?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> no never picked up the test kit. maybe this week.


It is possible you have a low kh/gh, allowing your ph to swing very easily. Fortunately there are a few safe methods out there to beef it up if necessary.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

snail said:


> I think if you have a low PH you would be safe just adding something as a buffer like shells or dolomite, (liquid buffers are not usually a good idea unless you really know what you are doing because they are not stable enough). Not too much at once, so the ph doesn't swing too quickly the other way.
> 
> Do you use any filter on your tap water?


No filter on my tap. Im just confused in why my test buckets havent dropped pH like my tanks did.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> No filter on my tap. Im just confused in why my test buckets havent dropped pH like my tanks did.


Because there are no decaying organics in your test buckets.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

So after a 50% water change yesterday. My ph dropped to 6.0. Tomorrow I'm going to get the test kit for hardness. Once I test what's my next step. My pH needs to be higher for my cray and stable for my fish.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

So my tetra water hardness puts both kH and gH below 1....any safe ways to raise my hardness in tank and gradually bring up my pH?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

coming late to this thread (or party).

Let me see if I understand yoru concerns.

You tore down the tank to clean up algae.

rescapped

did some water changes.

and now you have low pH and some ammonia,nitrItes, nitrates?

Kh and gh are low

and you are wondering how to get pH (edit and kh and gh) up and possibily the other things down?

Is that essentially correct?


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> coming late to this thread (or party).
> 
> Let me see if I understand yoru concerns.
> 
> ...


Yes sir, my tank was fine until the tear down n rebuild. Now my pH is 6. but my water.hardness is low. So a natural way to raise hardness so I can then work on raising my pH and keeping it stable would be incredibly helpful.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> Yes sir, my tank was fine until the tear down n rebuild. Now my pH is 6. but my water.hardness is low. So a natural way to raise hardness so I can then work on raising my pH and keeping it stable would be incredibly helpful.


IMHO all of those problems are a direct result of the tear down and messing with the tank.

To me what you need to do now is just let the tank reestablish itself with the plants thriving and in control. Thriving, growing plants in and of themselves will raise pH and fully consume ammonia to low/no values.

But that's just my .02


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

I like the idea of letting it go...but I'm scared of pH swings since my water is soft. Will that straighten itself out


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> I like the idea of letting it go...but I'm scared of pH swings since my water is soft. Will that straighten itself out


Yes.

My actual concern is that your tank has some running planted "sweet spot" which it will naturally go to.

By attempting to add chemicals you may wind up overshooting that spot and create more problems.

But if you first let things settle you just may find the tank just wants to take care of itself. and no corrections are necessary.


my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Look into 'buffering' soft water. If you decide to use something stay away from the type of chemical additives that come in a bottle at your LFS, they will likely cause you more problems, rather use something like a little dolomite or crushed shell, these are much more stable and better for long term use.

As I understand it plants raise PH by using the co2 in the water but this is unrelated to water hardness and wont prevent a PH crash. PH fluctuations caused by amounts of co2 in the water effect your fish little what is dangerous is Ph swings caused by water hardness. Any one with more info please correct me.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Once the tank does settle out, a kh that low will still have ph fluctuations - potentially. All tanks fluctuate...guess that may be more like crash territory.


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## ReStart (Jan 3, 2011)

I also have low kh in my new 60g tall. All other chemistry is great with 10 zebras looking like show fish. Been doing daily 10%wc during the cycle, which is finally finished I think.

I'd like to hear how to raise the kh as well.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

ReStart said:


> I also have low kh in my new 60g tall. All other chemistry is great with 10 zebras looking like show fish. Been doing daily 10%wc during the cycle, which is finally finished I think.
> 
> I'd like to hear how to raise the kh as well.


Calcium carbonate will raise it. Also, Epsom salt. Crushed coral will. For all of it you'll have to conduct a test to determine how much you need to get the desired kh.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

well my ph is up from 6.0 to 6.4...and its been there a week. so slowly but surely its stabilizing where u can be happy. im just afraid when I set up my 55 ill have issues.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Epsom salt from what I understand works wonders. I haven't played around with testing to much but the Cichlid Salt calls for 1 tbs per 5G.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Just to make it easy--- baking soda will raise kH, epson salts will raise gh.

But it doesn't take much. even just a teaspoon in a 55g will raise kH.

Again pH will raise with live plants consumeing carbon dioxide.

As plant consume nitrates they return carbonate as well raising kH.

So the first thing is to get live plants sucking out the nitrates and carbon dioxide *before* dosing things to make corrections.


my .02


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