# Plant Substrate way to expensive.. how to cut cost?



## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

*Eco complete is great but what else works? can you mixing it or top it with sand?*

Hey all so sadly I have not been able to set up my tank yet but I am still collecting all my supplies. I still need Substrate for my plants. If money was not option I would buy 7 bags of eco complete and be done with it. Its just that is so freakin expensive. So could I top it off with an inch of sand? Could I mix it with sand? Could I do a 50 50 with eco and sand? What are all of my differant options with plant Substrate.?


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## JOMA (Jul 23, 2010)

ive heard you can use clay kitty litter


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## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

lol, no no no thats not what I mean. I mean can I cut the eco and will it be just as effective? I heard that you can put down eco and then top it off with one inch of sand. It there any pros or cons to doing this?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob post and post how he has been using peat, play sand, and gravel for years. Not sure it can get any less expensive than that.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I would not top it with sand. If you want a planted aquarium I would not use sand in it. Sand builds up toxic gases and every few months or so has to be moved around to ensure that the gases don't get too bad and kill the fish. Can't be done with a planted tank. There is a recipe (or a few I have found actually) that mixes things like peat moss or potted soil with some other things to make a substrate but you would have to empty the tank for that. Also, might be a little tricky to learn how to clean without making a mess but would definitely be cheaper. If it was me and I wanted the eco I would probably put a layer of gravel on bottom and the eco on top of that.


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

I would just lay down about an inch of peat moss and then top with floor dry.


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## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

Archer what do you mean by... top with floor dry?


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## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

Amie said:


> I I would probably put a layer of gravel on bottom and the eco on top of that.


Thats a great idea! Thanks. I hear the eco dosent hold plants well. Is that true?


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

jons4real said:


> Archer what do you mean by... top with floor dry?


Put about an inch of peat down then put like 2-4 inches of floor dry on top of the peat.


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## Chillwill007 (Aug 20, 2010)

jons4real said:


> Archer what do you mean by... top with floor dry?


Hey jon. Me and archer talked about this in one of my threads. Here is the link to the floor dry he is talking about. And at $5 for a 40 lbs bag can't get much cheaper them that. So figure about $10 for the peat moss and $5 for the floor dry which is like 3 or 4 different kinds of clay.

Safe T Sorb Oil Absorbent, 40 lb. - 0800989 | Tractor Supply Company

And here is a link to my thread that we talked about it. He also put in a pic of his tank which has the floor dry. It looks real natural like. So that's what I'm gonna go with
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f45/40g-breeder-help-7589.html


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Whats wrong with using sand. I use it in just about all of my tanks and there is 47 of them. If the sand is kept stirred at least once a month there should be no problem of gas buildup. Sand is natural color so it makes the tank look more natural. I use play sand, pool filter sand and blasting sand and grow plants pretty well.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Susan: How do you stir the sand when you have real plants???

Jon: I know a few people on here with well planted tanks and they always use eco so I'm thinking it must hold plants pretty well.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*If I used sand in mine, I would not be able to stir it because my goal was to cover the entire substrate with plants. Hairgrass and HC prevents stirring and the roots of the root-intensive plants like the Limnophila Aromatica, Tiger Lotus, and Crypt also prevent me from stirring. 

Guess it would depend on the setup if sand can be used.*


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

If you use plants in sand you don't have to stir it where the roots are as they keep it from going bad. Where there isn't any plants I just use a wooden chop stick or a fork and poke into the sand bed or just stir a little.

If you look at my tank in the link of my sig. you will see it has black sand in it.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Cool!!! How long have you had it like this?? And you have really had no problems with it??


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*So what if you decide to plant the plants that require nutrient rich substrate like HC, Stargrass etc. I dont think my plants would be able to live in plain inert sand without any nutrients unless I fortify it with plant tabs or something. *


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*My friend uses black sand and eco-complete both from petco. 75% sand 25% eco. He has a 120g, with 2x 48" T5 CoralLife strips 4 bulbs per fixture. Half of the trimmings I give him dont grow, the other half do fine. I believe it is his substrate that limits him to what he can grow. Theres no nutrients in sand. *


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> beaslbob post and post how he has been using peat, play sand, and gravel for years. Not sure it can get any less expensive than that.



And most on this forum are probably getting tired of "my" peat/play sand. *old dude

Glad to see other are using peat also.

(here it comes. LOL)

I use 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, and 1" pro choice select in layers from bottom to top. I fill each layer with water then level that layer and clean the glass, then do the next layer. Then stick the plants in and finally fill the top with water poured over a suacer.

I have found the peat moss prevents a slow buildup of kH and Gh over time and neon tetras seem to need the peat.

the peat is the $10 2/3 cubic yard bale with no added fertz from home supply stores.

Play sand is just common play sand which is $3 / 50 pound bag.

Pro choice select is here:

Pro's Choice Products

I emailed the company and they referred me to a loacl supplier when did golf courses and other land scaping. I got 4 50 pound bags for $8 per bag.

Perhaps kitty litter would work as well. the pro choice is a baked clay with some calcium and iron in it. It is used in baseball infields and the like.

I suspect that normal aquarium gravel could be used as I have tested peat and sand but that was several years ago. More recent setups I used the pro choice so I haven't actually measured kh and gh with just the peat and sand substrate.

my repeated .02 for anyone still awake.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LOL, I would have followed your method had I thought I was going planted in the beginning.

The Pro Slect looks like regular aquarium gravel.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

As with most substrates, sand, gravel or what have you all you have to do is add fert tabs. Even on plant forums it is suggested to use ferts, even with eco and such because there are other nutrients that are needed that isn't in substrate. The subject here is whether it would damage plants and fish. *No it hasn't.* I do use fert tabs under my heavy root feeders and also use dry ferts for the water column.

I have also used the peat method. But it really isn't something I would suggest to beginners as it can and will go sour fast if not done right and taken care of right. Even Walsted wouldn't suggest it for beginners.

Eco complete is a great substrate, but the op, like me can not afford the high dollar stuff that can be substuted by sand which is cheaper when it comes to bigger tanks, or like me even smaller tanks. I would much rather spend my money on the fish that I want for the particular tank.


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## Zook (Oct 3, 2010)

Isn't floor dry basically kitty litter without perfumes and coloring?
my last tank,I went to the local lake when it was low and dug up some clay deposits.
the plants grew like crazy and I had a nice midge hatch(several generations) and some strange critters.


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

Kitty litter can turn to mush fast but floor dry doesnt because it is baked at higher temps and for longer periods.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*With my Eco, I dose Macro and Micro ferts alternating and reset with a water change every sunday. I value plants more than fish, I guess is the difference. I dont spent much on fish, maybe only $10-$20 . I use them to add bright colors to the tank and to add movement. 

My concentration is on the plants I keep and how I arrange them. I did think of sand before because my friend uses 75% sand, but it did not appeal to me and didnt seem like it would work since I would be covering my entire substrate with no substrate showing. Too afraid of dead spots and would hate to try to stir my tank up. Especially the area where theres the dwarf hairgrass and hemianthus callitrichoides, the roots only reach half an inch into the substrate when the substrate is 2"-3"deep. No way to stir that unless I uproot and lift up the mat. 

I went Eco-Complete only in my 20g tank. Red Mexican clay, peat moss, and Eco for my 55g tank. I know Eco cost a lot, which is why I buy them only when sales come. Plus it last 3-4 years and is considered cheap when comparing it to the top of the line ADA Amazonia Aqua Soil.

Its the best thing Ive invested my money in, besides the pressurized CO2.*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

NursePlaty said:


> *I value plants more than fish, I guess is the difference. I dont spent much on fish, maybe only $10-$20 . I use them to add bright colors to the tank and to add movement.
> *


Hmmmm.....with that kind of feeling you may need to change your name to NurseAnacharis or something like that.


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

susankat said:


> As with most substrates, sand, gravel or what have you all you have to do is add fert tabs. Even on plant forums it is suggested to use ferts, even with eco and such because there are other nutrients that are needed that isn't in substrate. The subject here is whether it would damage plants and fish. *No it hasn't.* I do use fert tabs under my heavy root feeders and also use dry ferts for the water column.
> 
> I have also used the peat method. But it really isn't something I would suggest to beginners as it can and will go sour fast if not done right and taken care of right. Even Walsted wouldn't suggest it for beginners.
> 
> Eco complete is a great substrate, but the op, like me can not afford the high dollar stuff that can be substuted by sand which is cheaper when it comes to bigger tanks, or like me even smaller tanks. I would much rather spend my money on the fish that I want for the particular tank.


I am about to set up a 60g tank with live plants. If i am reading this post correct, can i put about 2" of sand down, and before i plant my live plants just put a fert tab under where the plants will be planted? I have an all black tank, stand, and background so i really wanted to have just white sand because i think the contrast would look nice and i like the natural look of sand.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

HUMAN1ESS said:


> I am about to set up a 60g tank with live plants. If i am reading this post correct, can i put about 2" of sand down, and before i plant my live plants just put a fert tab under where the plants will be planted? I have an all black tank, stand, and background so i really wanted to have just white sand because i think the contrast would look nice and i like the natural look of sand.


IME sand only works for most but not all fish. 

You might try a 1" layer of peat moss with the sand on top.

I find the peat moss helps keep hardness in line and allows keeping of fish like neon tetras I could not keep with sand only.

my .02


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> IME sand only works for most but not all fish.
> 
> You might try a 1" layer of peat moss with the sand on top.
> 
> ...


Thanks! can i get peat moss from an aquarium store, or home depot?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

HUMAN1ESS said:


> Thanks! can i get peat moss from an aquarium store, or home depot?


home depot. (or Lowes, wallmart, garden supply places , feed and seed store, and so on)

a (something like 2/3 cubic yard) bale is $12 or so. Don't use the small bags for house plants. they usually have some kind of added fertz and the like.

And you get the sand (play sand) for $3 per 50 pound bag.

my .02


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> home depot. (or Lowes, wallmart, garden supply places , feed and seed store, and so on)
> 
> a (something like 2/3 cubic yard) bale is $12 or so. Don't use the small bags for house plants. they usually have some kind of added fertz and the like.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was going to go today to get the sand at the aquarium store tonight. Guess ill be hitting home depot up instead!


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## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

I have to be honest with you all I am more confused than ever. So I could use peat moss... Wont that just turn to mush in no time at all. I always hear that sand is bad for plants and fish... and with some saying they would use it and some saying no I dont know what to do. Then theres this dry floor stuff. I'm all twisted,lol.


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

Some members on here have been doing the aquarium thing for 30+ years. If they sat sand is ok then i'm going to have to assume they are telling the truth and give it a try.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Jon: 
You sound like me just last week!!! So, here is what I have learned: the peat moss solution is sort of like a recipe for substrate. Basically, it's a layer of peat moss on the bottom then a layer of play sand then another layer of something else. I am currently using this method in one of my tanks. Beaslbob swears by this method and, in fact, he does not use filtration or a water pump or do water changes in his tanks it works so well. He uses a particular type of red clay as the top layer. Me, I was unable to find that so I used regular aquarium gravel as the top layer. As for the sand (types like silica and black sand) you can grow plants in it. But, they won't be getting any nutrients from the sand so they would need to have the nutrients added. Also, and the bigger problem, sand does not aerate. So, it will build up toxic gases and needs to be stirred about once every month or two to ensure that the gases don't build up enough to harm the fish. Stirring sand I think would be pretty hard with plants in it. But, I was talking to someone on here and she uses sand and just doesn't over plant the tanks and pokes around with a stick or something in the areas where there are no plants every now and then. have no idea about the floor stuff. Hope this helps a little.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Everyone just has a different setup. I am against sand or anything that is not fortified with nutrients. I am also against plant tabs because it doesn't even distribute nutrients all over the soil. Whereas others are all for sand and etc. I am all for Eco-Complete and ADA Amazonia Aqua Soil. *


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jons4real said:


> I have to be honest with you all I am more confused than ever. So I could use peat moss... Wont that just turn to mush in no time at all. I always hear that sand is bad for plants and fish... and with some saying they would use it and some saying no I dont know what to do. Then theres this dry floor stuff. I'm all twisted,lol.


I have no experience with kitty liter.

my experience with sand only is that some fish like neon tetras do not do well and hardness (kh and gh) increse over time. Even with that most fish do well.

I would not use peat moss by itself. Too many sitcks and stuff in it.

I do use a layer of peat moss with sand on top. I find that kh and gh do not rise over time and those pesky neon tetras thrive. (along with other fish).

I have no experience with dry floor stuff but have use base ball infield clay as a top layer. (pc select) Which does seem to do fine.

So as to not get confused some peat and sand should do fine.


my .02


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

This is about 90% floor dry and it is just 100% fullers earth as in baked clay and costs about $5.00 for 40lbs and I only used about 3/4 of a bag for my 4 foot 120 gallon. I have a couple friends that are useing peat and floor dry and for a 130 gallon there was about 1/3 of the bale of peat used and 2 bags of floor dry and it gave him about 6 inches of substrate the other person used 2 bales of peat and I think it was 4 or 5 bags of floor dry and she has about 4-6 inches of substrate in a 450 gallon.


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

archer772 said:


>


That is a beautiful setup


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