# Cichlids (low pH)



## glucas

I have a friend that has asked me to help her manage her 55 gallon aquarium that is mostly populated with African Cichilds. I have kept tropical and saltwater fish on and off for a couple of decades so I am not exactly green, but I have never managed a cichlid community before and I have grave concerns for her current setup. 

Tank size: 55g (standard) 
Filtration: 1 very low capacity (outside tank filter) that barely exchanges any water...it's just trickle; with poly fiber only. 
Substrate: natural quartz
Other items: 2 medium size pieces of driftwood; maybe 12-14"
Planted: no (just artificial) 

Current water specs (as of this evening) 

Ammonia: slightly elevated 0.25ppm after 10gal water change
Nitrite: slightly elevated
Nitrate: none (some free-floating algae suspension and on the walls of the tank) 
PH: 6 (whoa; this really concerns me)

Aside from the 10gal water change; I cleaned all algae off the tank walls and ran 4 exchanges of a vortex diatom over about a 5 hour period; it clogged the filter with debris between each cycle; LOTS of organic waste in the tank; these are BIG messy fish. 

Inhabitants: (one crazy collection of novice fish that I am surprised haven't eaten each other: 

3 Oscars (3-4")
2 Electric Blue Cichilds (4"); one is very aggressive; the other less colorful, perhaps a female just hides when not being chased by the more aggressive one along with everyone else in the tank
4 Blood Red Parrot Cichlids (2")
2 Gold Gouramis
1 Melanchronis Auratus (Lake Malawi)
1 Bala Shark (5")
4 Small Molly's (surprisingly still living and not someone's lunch)
1 Black Skirt Tetra ( 1.5"); pretty beat up

This amalgamation of residents seems to me a disaster in the making. 

How would I best transition this tank to a suitable Cichlid community. My friend is most fond of the Blood Parrot's, the Electric Blues, and the melanchronis Auratus. My biggest concern is the extremely low pH and how to address that without shocking them to death; I suppose they have just become accustomed to it. The Melanchronis and the Electric Blue's do srape themselves on the gravel, but I can't see any visible signs of infection; perhaps the low pH is just irritating to them. 

My suggestion was to move away from the traditional Tropical tank which is what she has now with natural gravel, driftwood, etc., and move to a better substrate to buffer the pH. 

My assumption is the large amount of organic waste and lack of filtration and the tank lacking in any kind of bottom feeders to pick up extra food along with overfeeding flake food all contribute to the problem .

So, in short, the fish a quasi-healthy, but stressed, and I need to move them to a more suitable environment with more suitable tank-mates without shocking them to much. 

Suggestions welcome.


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## coralbandit

crushed coral in mesh bag will help raise ph.The driftwood(if natural) is not!.What a mix of fish for sure.The mollies,tetra,gouramis really don't belong in there at all(I know you know).The oscars are probably second largest contibutor to poor tank conditions(besides overfeeding) and will(should if conditions allowed) grow and grow,They're removal would benefit tank tremendously.Not being a fan of aggressive fish I would think the rest could be fine together(made it this far and are fairly tough fish).Better water quality will allow those who remain to "show" as best they can.The crushed coral can be put in and taken out to slowly raise ph.Also curios what ph of tap/source water is.


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## glucas

Thanks for your comments; tap pH is 7.2; so something is serious wrong to drive it dow so low and I am concerned about changing it too quickly as they seem to have adjusted to it, but I am sure they are stressed fish. 



coralbandit said:


> crushed coral in mesh bag will help raise ph.The driftwood(if natural) is not!.What a mix of fish for sure.The mollies,tetra,gouramis really don't belong in there at all(I know you know).The oscars are probably second largest contibutor to poor tank conditions(besides overfeeding) and will(should if conditions allowed) grow and grow,They're removal would benefit tank tremendously.Not being a fan of aggressive fish I would think the rest could be fine together(made it this far and are fairly tough fish).Better water quality will allow those who remain to "show" as best they can.The crushed coral can be put in and taken out to slowly raise ph.Also curios what ph of tap/source water is.


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## coralbandit

More than likely overcrowding(lots of waste),lack of water changes are resposible for low ph.The wood eventually will not continue to alter ph so dramatically.Just changing 10g a day will slowly raise tank to 7 range possibly.It will definately improve fish quality of life.It's nice your trying to help friend out.


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## jrman83

The problem with a dropping ph is not the tank per se, but the kh being too low to hold the ph at the value it initially comes out as. I would test straight out of the tap and then set some of the water aside and test again about 24hrs later to see what your water is really doing outside the effects of the tank. If your tank has a low kh it cannot hold the ph steady. Crushed coral is a good method for bolstering that won't have you measuring anything to add. But....I would want to know what the kh is before I started. 

Also, you need quite a bit of filtration for that many fish. It sounds like it is very inadequate.


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## glucas

Judging from yours and comments elsewhere; overcrowding is the biggest problem here and lack of adequate filtration. 

Should I consider buffering the pH chemically to slowly get it up to a higher level and then remove the driftwood and add in a more calcified substrate to buffer the pH. What might a ideal pH be for this group? 

I am pretty sure I can get her to remove the oscars, blue electrics, maybe 2 of the blood parrots and maybe the bala shark. 





coralbandit said:


> More than likely overcrowding(lots of waste),lack of water changes are resposible for low ph.The wood eventually will not continue to alter ph so dramatically.Just changing 10g a day will slowly raise tank to 7 range possibly.It will definately improve fish quality of life.It's nice your trying to help friend out.


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## glucas

kH is a new concept to me, can you elaborate? 

Getting that water moving is priority #1; when you look at the tank the water is just completely still with just a trickle of filtration. BIG problem. 



jrman83 said:


> The problem with a dropping ph is not the tank per se, but the kh being too low to hold the ph at the value it initially comes out as. I would test straight out of the tap and then set some of the water aside and test again about 24hrs later to see what your water is really doing outside the effects of the tank. If your tank has a low kh it cannot hold the ph steady. Crushed coral is a good method for bolstering that won't have you measuring anything to add. But....I would want to know what the kh is before I started.
> 
> Also, you need quite a bit of filtration for that many fish. It sounds like it is very inadequate.


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## jrman83

kh = carbonate hardness. Measures the buffering capacity or the ability to absorb and neutralize added acid without major changes to pH. Think of buffering capacity as a big sponge, the higher the buffering, the bigger the sponge. Fish will add nitric acid and can drop the ph over time. My guess is that you have fairly soft water.


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## glucas

I'll have to add that to my Test Kit, I can only measure low- and hi-pH with my API kit. 



jrman83 said:


> kh = carbonate hardness. Measures the buffering capacity or the ability to absorb and neutralize added acid without major changes to pH. Think of buffering capacity as a big sponge, the higher the buffering, the bigger the sponge.


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## jrman83

API makes a combined gh/kh test kit. Both are good things to know. You may not use them very often, but always good to have. You'd want kh levels to be in the 3-4dkh to keep tank safe from ph fluctuations. GH is general hardness and it's what is referred to as the water's true hardness.


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## coralbandit

quickly answering adding chemical to alter ph ; no. jrman is correct about kh,it is important and helps control ph swings.The chemicals will do nothing(good) that crushed coral won't do.You do need to know your kh,so follow jrmans idea as it will tell more info on water than just ph.


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## goldie

Glucas,are you able to remove or do something about the black skirt being beaten up. Also, maybe easier said than done but, between you add another filter but, my concern is the fish being got at.


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## disc61

glucas said:


> I have a friend that has asked me to help her manage her 55 gallon aquarium that is mostly populated with African Cichilds. I have kept tropical and saltwater fish on and off for a couple of decades so I am not exactly green, but I have never managed a cichlid community before and I have grave concerns for her current setup.
> 
> Tank size: 55g (standard)
> Filtration: 1 very low capacity (outside tank filter) that barely exchanges any water...it's just trickle; with poly fiber only.
> Substrate: natural quartz
> Other items: 2 medium size pieces of driftwood; maybe 12-14"
> Planted: no (just artificial)
> 
> Current water specs (as of this evening)
> 
> Ammonia: slightly elevated 0.25ppm after 10gal water change
> Nitrite: slightly elevated
> Nitrate: none (some free-floating algae suspension and on the walls of the tank)
> PH: 6 (whoa; this really concerns me)
> 
> Aside from the 10gal water change; I cleaned all algae off the tank walls and ran 4 exchanges of a vortex diatom over about a 5 hour period; it clogged the filter with debris between each cycle; LOTS of organic waste in the tank; these are BIG messy fish.
> 
> Inhabitants: (one crazy collection of novice fish that I am surprised haven't eaten each other:
> 
> 3 Oscars (3-4")
> 2 Electric Blue Cichilds (4"); one is very aggressive; the other less colorful, perhaps a female just hides when not being chased by the more aggressive one along with everyone else in the tank
> 4 Blood Red Parrot Cichlids (2")
> 2 Gold Gouramis
> 1 Melanchronis Auratus (Lake Malawi)
> 1 Bala Shark (5")
> 4 Small Molly's (surprisingly still living and not someone's lunch)
> 1 Black Skirt Tetra ( 1.5"); pretty beat up
> 
> This amalgamation of residents seems to me a disaster in the making.
> 
> How would I best transition this tank to a suitable Cichlid community. My friend is most fond of the Blood Parrot's, the Electric Blues, and the melanchronis Auratus. My biggest concern is the extremely low pH and how to address that without shocking them to death; I suppose they have just become accustomed to it. The Melanchronis and the Electric Blue's do srape themselves on the gravel, but I can't see any visible signs of infection; perhaps the low pH is just irritating to them.
> 
> My suggestion was to move away from the traditional Tropical tank which is what she has now with natural gravel, driftwood, etc., and move to a better substrate to buffer the pH.
> 
> My assumption is the large amount of organic waste and lack of filtration and the tank lacking in any kind of bottom feeders to pick up extra food along with overfeeding flake food all contribute to the problem .
> 
> So, in short, the fish a quasi-healthy, but stressed, and I need to move them to a more suitable environment with more suitable tank-mates without shocking them to much.
> 
> Suggestions welcome.


I really don't think you need to try an alter the PH ( overstocking is the cause here, nothing more), but rather have a serious discussion with your friend on overstocking. one of 2 things really need to happen here, return many, many fish or get like a 200 gl tank.
3 Oscars should be in at least a 125 by themselves ( really should be a 150)
the 1 black skirt tetra - well really it should just go or get a school of them 
One bala Shark really should have a school of at least 4
4 BP's should have a 100 gl anyways
1 auratus should have at least a ratio of 1 male to 4 females and a species only tank. this species would be my choice for a 55 gl, then you could have upwards of 14 -16 fish all Mbunas from lake Malawi
the Electric blues are Haps and should have a species only tank. in all honesty, you can try buffering the PH all you want but you have a much bigger issue here, not trying to be rude, this is just a bad scenerio.


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## rift lake

glucas said:


> I have a friend that has asked me to help her manage her 55 gallon aquarium that is mostly populated with African Cichilds. I have kept tropical and saltwater fish on and off for a couple of decades so I am not exactly green, but I have never managed a cichlid community before and I have grave concerns for her current setup.
> 
> Tank size: 55g (standard)
> Filtration: 1 very low capacity (outside tank filter) that barely exchanges any water...it's just trickle; with poly fiber only.
> Substrate: natural quartz
> Other items: 2 medium size pieces of driftwood; maybe 12-14"
> Planted: no (just artificial)
> 
> Current water specs (as of this evening)
> 
> Ammonia: slightly elevated 0.25ppm after 10gal water change
> Nitrite: slightly elevated
> Nitrate: none (some free-floating algae suspension and on the walls of the tank)
> PH: 6 (whoa; this really concerns me)
> 
> Aside from the 10gal water change; I cleaned all algae off the tank walls and ran 4 exchanges of a vortex diatom over about a 5 hour period; it clogged the filter with debris between each cycle; LOTS of organic waste in the tank; these are BIG messy fish.
> 
> Inhabitants: (one crazy collection of novice fish that I am surprised haven't eaten each other:
> 
> 3 Oscars (3-4")
> 2 Electric Blue Cichilds (4"); one is very aggressive; the other less colorful, perhaps a female just hides when not being chased by the more aggressive one along with everyone else in the tank
> 4 Blood Red Parrot Cichlids (2")
> 2 Gold Gouramis
> 1 Melanchronis Auratus (Lake Malawi)
> 1 Bala Shark (5")
> 4 Small Molly's (surprisingly still living and not someone's lunch)
> 1 Black Skirt Tetra ( 1.5"); pretty beat up
> 
> This amalgamation of residents seems to me a disaster in the making.
> 
> How would I best transition this tank to a suitable Cichlid community. My friend is most fond of the Blood Parrot's, the Electric Blues, and the melanchronis Auratus. My biggest concern is the extremely low pH and how to address that without shocking them to death; I suppose they have just become accustomed to it. The Melanchronis and the Electric Blue's do srape themselves on the gravel, but I can't see any visible signs of infection; perhaps the low pH is just irritating to them.
> 
> My suggestion was to move away from the traditional Tropical tank which is what she has now with natural gravel, driftwood, etc., and move to a better substrate to buffer the pH.
> 
> My assumption is the large amount of organic waste and lack of filtration and the tank lacking in any kind of bottom feeders to pick up extra food along with overfeeding flake food all contribute to the problem .
> 
> So, in short, the fish a quasi-healthy, but stressed, and I need to move them to a more suitable environment with more suitable tank-mates without shocking them to much.
> 
> Suggestions welcome.



First you have to get rid of the southamerican cichlids becaue you csnt male healty conditions for both in the same tank SA ciclids need s sofy watre around 6ph and ACs like some water at 7.7-9 hard water


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## edisto

As was pointed out, the pH isn't a big problem for the SA cichlids, and the lack of filtration is the most likely cause.

No nitrates means that none of the nitrates or the ammonia is being converted.

I would use something like neutral regulator to try to stabilize the pH. With ammonia up, raising the pH (especially too quickly) can make more of it available in toxic form.


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