# Just set up a new tank



## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Howdy folks,

I just set up a new freshwater tank, and am looking for some advice on how to best proceed.

Admittedly, I found this forum after I had already started... So hopefully I haven't messed up anything too badly, and if I have maybe I can get pointed in the right direction to correct my mistakes... 

Ok... So my setup is a 36 gallon bow front tank. It has medium and small pebble substrate, plastic plants, and a plastic rock structure. Lighting is a standard fluorescent tube. I am running a 100W heater that I haven't had to turn on at all yet (tank temp at 80 degrees without the heater). For filtration I am running a 250GPH Aqueon QuietFlow 50 hanging power filter. I have the intake tube positioned about 6 inches from the bottom of the tank.

After filling the tank I treated it with the recommended amount of Stress Coat for conditioning.

I ran it for around 30 hours, then added 5 Silvertip Tetras

This is where I think I may have messed up... I'm using the fish to cycle the tank, as I wasn't aware at the time that cycling was possible without fish. I kinda thought you had to sacrifice some fish to get things going... 

My end goal is for this to be a Cichlid Tank, most likely South American, as Africans aren't readily available in Hawaii...

Any suggestions on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated!










This is a picture of the tank prior to adding any fish... 

The Tetras have been in now for about 24 hours. I was planning to start checking for ammonia levels on Wednesday...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You need a master test kit(liquid) so you can watch your ammonia,nitrite and nitrate levels and know how much water to change and when.
You can cycle without losing fish if you keep on top of testing and waterchanges, or you could return the fish and cycle fishless(which is usaully quicker and involves no water changes till cycling is complete.
Eitherway good luck ask what you need to know and welcome.
Tank looks very nice by the way!


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Beautiful tank. I love the simple looking tanks. Welcome to the forum!*w2


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## paronaram (Jul 12, 2008)

*w2

Nice tank!

But to start successful aquarium, get 2-3 cups of water from established aquarium and add it to your new setup. This will speedup things. Look in your area for people who sale aquatic plants, and ask them. Don't get water from big PET stores!
As coralbandit mentioned you must have water test kit.
Search Google for how to cycle fresh water aquarium.
After cycle is complete, add 2-3 low maintenance real plants (anubias, some fern etc) Plants will help you allot with water quality 

Good Luck!


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

Adding old water won't help. Your actually just moving old water to the new tank. Water wont hold enough bacteria to make a difference. They key to getting the tank ready the quickest is an old piece of filter media. Something that's already established. When I set up a new tank I simply use old media in the new filter or clean it off into the new tank. This will give actual living bacteria. However putting fish in the tank and monitoring the parameters closely will also do the trick. Be ready for the water to turn a milky color. This isn't anything to worry about. That is what's called a bacteria bloom. And when that goes away your tank is cycled. It can take a week up to. Amonth for it clear up though. Good luck. Tank looks nice too btw!


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks a bunch for the suggestions so far... When I got home today I had a couple of casualties, unfortunately... I checked all my water parameters, and as I suspected nothing was moving yet. Ammonia, Nitrites, nitrates all at 0ppm. pH is 8, which is about where I want it for Cichlids. Water temp at 80... 

I noticed the fish looked like they were "breathing" really heavy, almost like they were gasping... I googled that and there were suggestions that the water doesn't have enough oxygen, so I added an air pump and an air stone. I thought I would have enough agitation at the top of the tank with the filter running... It's definitely moving now with the air stone on the opposite side of the tank.

I'll check the remaining 3 tomorrow and see if they're breathing improves. 

Surely there is a better term to use for a fish "breathing" than... well breathing... 

I hate that a couple of the new fish died... I was really hoping to avoid that... The water having enough oxygen was one parameter I never even considered


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

Ah ya that is one parameter that can get over looked. A lot of power filters can be smooth flowing back into the tank which is nice because it makes them quieter. But with them gently placing the water back into the tank. It won't agitate the water enough to provide adequate oxygen exchange. The air stone should fix your issue. Water changes also help. High nitrates make it harder for the water to hold oxygen.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

hotwingz said:


> Ah ya that is one parameter that can get over looked. A lot of power filters can be smooth flowing back into the tank which is nice because it makes them quieter. But with them gently placing the water back into the tank. It won't agitate the water enough to provide adequate oxygen exchange. The air stone should fix your issue. Water changes also help. High nitrates make it harder for the water to hold oxygen.


As I am studying various charts and graphs on the nitrogen cycle, the way I understand it so far is that I should first see ammonia start to rise, then just before the ammonia level peaks I should see nitrites and nitrates start to come up, and as the nitrites rise the ammonia level should fall back to 0ppm... And eventually as the biological filter matures the nitrites should fall to 0ppm as well, leaving nitrates on an upward rise. And only at that point should I start changing out the water to keep the nitrate levels in check.

Am I completely off here? I have seen some folks recommend changing water during the cycling process, but that seems a bit counter productive. I understand that ammonia and nitrite levels can be harmful to the fish in the tank, so I'm sure that's the reason to conduct water changed mid cycle, but is there a certain danger zone I should be doing water changes? 

For example, if ammonia hits x ppm, do a partial change... If nitrites hit x then do a partial change. 

I haven't really seen anything that defines a number on when to do water changes... And I'm guessing the amount of water you need to change is based on the percentage of Ammonia, Nitrites, or Nitrates you want to remove. Should those percentages roughly correlate with each other? Should a 20% water change result in a roughly 20% decrease in gas levels?


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Also, how often should I be checking chemical levels at this stage? Every day? Every other day?

Again, I apologize in advance if these questions are stupid / repetitive... I'm sure they've all been asked a bunch of times... I'm learning a lot though in a short period of time. So even if you're fed up with answering my noobly questions, believe me I appreciate your efforts, and hope to assist others in the future the way you've helped me today.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Another question for the vets... 

I plan to document the levels of the cycling process, so I can get a better understanding of what is happening in my tank, and also to make pretty pictures in Excel...

I've noticed on many of the graphs that pop up in searches they are documenting ammonia levels that reach up to the 11-15ppm range, and nitrite levels as high as 25-30ppm at their peaks. 

I have the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (API) Freshwater Master Test Kit. From what I am seeing on my color comparison card, I won't be able to read past 8ppm for ammonia, and only 5ppm for nitrites. 

What are people using to measure beyond these "barriers"?

Every knowledgeable person I have discussed the water testing equipment with suggested this kit and claimed it was the most accurate testing method available. So I'm at least half-way confident that it will work, Especially if ammonia and nitrite need to get back down to zero eventually. I'm more curious how I can accurately document the higher levels if my testing kit doesn't go as high as I should expect to see. I'd like to follow the trend of nitrites on it's downward slope so I can get a rough idea of how much more time until the cycle is complete based on trend analysis.

Probably trying to think this through too hard...


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## Chang Cindy (Sep 17, 2013)

Nice simple looking tank,welcome!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

dam718 said:


> Am I completely off here? I have seen some folks recommend changing water during the cycling process, but that seems a bit counter productive. I understand that ammonia and nitrite levels can be harmful to the fish in the tank, so I'm sure that's the reason to conduct water changed mid cycle, but is there a certain danger zone I should be doing water changes?
> 
> For example, if ammonia hits x ppm, do a partial change... If nitrites hit x then do a partial change.
> 
> I haven't really seen anything that defines a number on when to do water changes... And I'm guessing the amount of water you need to change is based on the percentage of Ammonia, Nitrites, or Nitrates you want to remove. Should those percentages roughly correlate with each other? Should a 20% water change result in a roughly 20% decrease in gas levels?


As I mentioned before cycling with fish in it will take much longer.
Most do not want to let ammonia or nitrites rise over 1ppm before doing a water change.Both ammonia and nitrite will have very bad effects on fish even if they live through it.
You are also correct on the % of water change .How much you change is how much the nutrient will go down example being 40ppm nitrates and 50% wc will yield around 20ppm nitrate afterwards.
Good luck!


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## paronaram (Jul 12, 2008)

also pH 8 for: "...My end goal is for this to be a Cichlid Tank, most likely South American" it's to high.
SA fish likes lower pH, in general


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Welcome to the forum and the hobby. *w2

I'd like to direct your attention to the following thread:
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/ammonia-present-no-nitrites-nitrates-57873.html

It seems a lot of your questions are things I went through a few months ago with my 20 gallon and the guys and gals here were very helpful and patient, as you'll see in the thread. Hope this helps.


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

dam718 said:


> Another question for the vets...
> 
> I've noticed on many of the graphs that pop up in searches they are documenting ammonia levels that reach up to the 11-15ppm range, and nitrite levels as high as 25-30ppm at their peaks.
> .


I'm not sure how to measure that high. But your fish will have died way before you get that point. Also one thing that hasn't been brought up yet. The reason that fish I. Cycles take longer is because you have to change water. But when you do a fish less cycle you have to actually add pure ammonia to the tank. Once bacteria has started to show up if it has nothing to feed on it will simply die off and nothing has been accomplished. So you are doing it the long way, but keep up your wc and you will be fine.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

You may be at work right now so I'll check this a couple of times before I go to sleep this morning.
If you added an air pump/air stone because the fish were breathing hard, this would only take a few minuits to
an hr at the most to give them enough Oxygen for them to start breathing more normally. Look at this and I believe it
will tell you the reason for their hard breathing.
Find fish (order by the alphabet (latin) - descending: 0)
If they didn't stop the hard breathing by a couple of hrs after you added the air, then this likely is it. Keep this link as it 
does this/w plants and fish.
Now take this into consideration: The pet shop likely had them in water/w a Ph of somewhere near 7.4-7.6
And I say that because most chain stores don't bother to adjust the Ph as it comes from the tap. Could easily be different
if it was a good mom&pop type store. But I suggest you DON'T rush out and get some chemical to change the Ph.
Some fish just can't take that much of a Ph change. I have no experience/w that kind to say. BUT most fish can adapt.
Bouncing them up and down is worse than a one time adjustment. You can adjust the Ph later after the cycle/for the S.A.
Ciclids if you think it will be helpful. But these fish have already had one shock so you might want to wait to mess/w the
Ph again on them for a while.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Remember that a clear, non-cloudy, tank does not always mean it is cycled. Some never cloud, some remain somewhat un-clear. Let your testing results guide you. Cloudiness is normal, however. 

I wouldn't sweat your ph right now and me personally, I could care less what the store has as a ph and have never even asked in the years of keeping fish. As long as you are acclimating the fish properly, which could have been the cause of your deaths, you should have nothing to worry about. Your future choice of cichlids sounds more like Africans may be the way to go for you and that way you would not have to worry about whether ph may be causing issues if you happen to be having some, and left with trying to fix the issue.

Your fish struggling at the top of the water can be a mixture of things and one could be not acclimating as I said. If there is water moving in the tank I wouldn't worry about an air pump. IMO, the big thing is water movement at the top of the tank. If you get good surface movement, no need for air bars or pumps. The surface air exchange will create more than enough oxygen in the water and even filters will provide more air than an air pump.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Read this thread on drip acclimation.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/drip-acclimating-fish-11327.html


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the great advise and resources!

I have another question...

This morning is the one week point for the tank. I haven't even bothered checking Nitrate levels yet simply because I didn't think there was any way possible that Nitrates would exist this early... 

I've been checking Ammonia and Nitrite levels every day.

Ammonia has been on a slow rise... On the third day with 3 remaining fish, it was around .25, next day .5... I thought that was normal... Nitrite levels at 0 both of these days.

Today I check and ammonia is .25 again, with nitrite still at 0.

So I decided to go ahead and check nitrate levels, cause there was no other reason the ammonia levels would be falling... And wouldn't ya know, nitrate levels are up around 7.5-8ppm... I had to run the test twice cause I found it a bit hard to believe at first... 

When I bought the tank, the employee that was helping me get everything together had suggested I try using Stress Zyme... I did put in a double dose with the Stress Coat. I've since read mixed reviews about the live bacteria products, how some folks see good results, and some folks see no change at all... 

Is it possible the Stress Zyme is the reason I am seeing Nitrates already?

Will the 3 tiny fish in the tank produce enough ammonia to feed the biological filter that is building? 

Because I have 3 fish in the tank, will I ever truly see ammonia at zero? Or will it always be slightly elevated (.25ppm) because they are making waste?

Should I go ahead and add a couple more fish to get the biological filter built up more?

Sorry for all the questions again... I didn't expect to see nitrates this early, so now I'm kind of excited cause I don't want to lose that progress...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Can't speak for the stress zyme as only 2 bacterial boosters are "proven" to any degree;Dr.Tims one and only and TSS(Tetra Safe Start).Even they are still hit and miss for many.
Everyones tank and water are different and you would not be the first to get nitrates without ever detecting nitrites.That being said if any ammonia is detected then you are not fully cycled yet.Once cycled you will NOT have ammonia or nitrites ,but only nitrates.Any ammonia or nitrite can be considered a signal of something going wrong or incomplete cycle.
3 fish in a 36G can cycle you,so you don't need to add more fish.
If you add more fish keep testing as likely the increase in bio load on an un cycled filter will surely be noticed with elavated levels.
Whether fully cycled or not add fish slowly so the beneficial bacteria can grow with the population.


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## paronaram (Jul 12, 2008)

Also 1 week, is not long enough ...
And keep the temp around 80F, and aerate the water. This will help with cycle


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## Raymond S. (Jan 11, 2013)

For future references: It takes two numbers to get a comparison. Since you didn't test for nitrates after you first 
put the water in, you don't know if it went up or that much was in the water at first.
Normally in a cycle, the ammonia goes down and the nitrates go up. Then also when dealing/w numbers like .25
you could be getting a false reading. That is the short version as nitrites are involved also. 
I've known a couple of people who never heard of a cycle and had no problems when putting a small amount of fish 
like you have in that much water. I think this tank, at the stocking level you have, can cycle without hurting the fish
without your doing anything else. But I would watch those levels. I don't know exactly what level on nitrates it
would take to hurt them. I've just heard people talking about extreme levels. No doubt someone will let you know how
high you can let it go till you need to change water. I'd wait for other feed back as in hrs not days to see what they say.

BTW did they ever and how long did it take for them to start breathing normal ?


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> BTW did they ever and how long did it take for them to start breathing normal?


Yes, the breathing is better now... I set up the air stone fairly late in the evening, so I turned out the light in the tank and went to bed... By the time I got up everything was good... 

Had another casualty today :/ One of my fish got sucked against the intake pipe of the HOB power filter. I didn't notice til it was too late... 

Is that a common occurrence, fish getting sucked against power filter intakes?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ammonia going down would mean nitrItes going up, not nitrAtes. When the nitrItes go down, then usually nitrAtes go up. 

You could test your tap and see if you have trace levels of nitrates there. I think some of those products that supposedly help the tank cycle actually boost nitrates slightly in a tank. Stop adding it and I bet it goes away.

Fish-in cycles just take way longer than what you have been going - typically. The quickest I seen is 3wks. I personally don't think that you need to get anymore fish either. I had only 4 fish in my first 75g tank and saw my ammonia and nitrite levels get to 5ppm, despite a water change the day before. You just need patience - the hardest part. You will get there soon enough.

If a fish gets sucked up and stuck to intake, IME it meant that fish was sick already. The way it got there was not being strong enough to get away. Those fish at the top looking like they were trying to breathe when you first put them in there was probably from not acclimating them properly.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

dam718 said:


> Had another casualty today :/ One of my fish got sucked against the intake pipe of the HOB power filter. I didn't notice til it was too late...
> 
> Is that a common occurrence, fish getting sucked against power filter intakes?


99% of the time healthy fish do not get stuck to the filter.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks again for the fast responses and great information.

Another question, as usual 

The Aqueon HOB filter I am using uses media with two dense floss sheets surrounding a layer of carbon. I know I don't want to leave carbon longer than 30 days, but I also don't want to lose my biological filter every time I swap out the filter media. 

For black Friday my local PetSmart is selling Marineland C220 canister filters for half off. Seems like a good deal. I have considered getting a canister so I don't have to lose my biological filter every time I service the filter. 

Would it hurt to have both the canister and HOB? I would think with that much circulation (470 GPH) I shouldn't have any more oxygen issues and can take this silly air stone out.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You surely could run both filters probly without issue.As long as fish aren't getting washed away in the current you can't have to much filtering.
On the carbon it is pretty useless completely.Low quaility and even lower volume for gallons it filters.Just cut the top off your filter packet and dump the carbon out.Then you keep the original filter pad and only rinse it in old tank water(bucket during water changes) and you don't ever need to replace it till it falls apart.
I just run sponges in my hobs and rinsing is easy.


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## Avraptorhal (Jan 24, 2013)

First *w2

It is refreshing to hear someone doing the things te way you are.

As to the high readings you questioned, it is likely the were obtained through the use of laboratory instruments since the authors were intending to publish.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Avraptorhal said:


> It is refreshing to hear someone doing the things te way you are.


Thanks! I tried a small 10G tank when I was a teenager... That was a failed experiment, mostly due to the fact that I didn't know any of this information regarding water chemistry.

And the internet didn't exist yet 

So I really want to get this one right so I can enjoy it!


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

When I got to PetSmart they were sold out of the Marineland C220's, so I just picked up a second Aqueon QuietFlow 50... So now, as far as the labels tell, I am moving 500GPH through the filter media. 

I didn't remove the carbon from the media, from what I've read it helps a bit with Ammonia levels while cycling with fish. Anything I can do to help keep these last two alive is worth the effort.

I will say, after adding the second filter and removing the air stone, the fish seem a lot more happy and playful. They're chasing each other around the tank, seem to be eating better. Not staying isolated in a corner. Maybe I just needed a little extra current flowing through the tank.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Carbon does nothing to remove ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> Carbon does nothing to remove ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.


This may be the dumbest question of the year... But I have to ask anyway

If carbon doesn't absorb ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates, then what DOES it do?

You aren't the first person to suggest that carbon is useless... In fact I think it has been said a few times in this thread... 

What I am curious about is, if it is universally known that carbon is useless, why is it also universally included in almost every filter system on the market?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

They include it so you think you have to replace it$$$$$$.
Using Carbon in a Freshwater Aquarium | RateMyFishTank.com


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

dam718 said:


> This may be the dumbest question of the year... But I have to ask anyway
> 
> If carbon doesn't absorb ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates, then what DOES it do?


If carbon did this then why would you need to perform water changes when you had ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates? You would just throw in a few bags of carbon and be done. It would change all the headache associated with a nitrogen cycle, right?

It just polishes the water. Removes meds, colorations (like wood leaching tannins), odors, or anything that could enter the tank to contaminate the water. Things that normally are intentionally placed in a tank.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Hope it's okay that I keep using this same thread while my tank cycles. Don't want to clog up the forums with my questions since they are all related to a new tank setup and initial cycling.

My ammonia levels reached 1ppm today for the first time. Nitrites are also on the rise and were at .5ppm, with nitrates around 20-30ppm.

I am doing a 50% water change to get the ammonia back down to "safe" levels for the fish.

Isn't that my goal here, with a fish-in cycle, to keep ammonia/nitrites at safe levels without completely eliminating them? I am seeing nitrite now, so it would seem that the cycle is doing what it is supposed to do. I don't want ammonia OR nitrites to go above 1ppm with fish in the tank, is that correct?

Thanks!


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

When I did a fish in cycle in my 20G it took me several months to get it to cycle. Right when I started getting very frustrated, I happened to check the levels and i got zeros with 10 ppm nitrates. It was a glorious moment/day. I was told do 50% WC when either ammonia or nitrIte got to 1ppm. Sounds like you're doing it right to me, but remember that although you want to keep the levels safe for the fish you also can't grow bacteria without ammonia. I found that adding some prime to detoxify the ammonia when it got to .50ppm put me at ease so I didn't freak out waiting for it to climb to 1ppm. Unfortunately, when I did mine there was fish casualty as well. This is why a lot of folks frown on the fish in cycle. Next time, I will do a fishless cycle. Anyways, several weeks before I set up my 55G tank, I ran a marineland c220 canister on the 20g and input all (4) of my filter pads in one of the trays...by then I had already removed all the carbon. I must say: for the $50 difference between the 220 and the 360, I had no problem returning the 220 and getting the 360. So, if at any point you plan on changing your tank to a larger setup, may I suggest you go with the 360 or equivalent. At first I loved the sound of trickling water from the HOBs...then it got annoying and I love the quiet peaceful setup of the 55g w/ canister. Not to mention, it looks so much cleaner (setup wise). Lets see, what else....right: I recently discovered canisters potentially require less maintenance than HOBs, but it may be a good idea to add a power head to create more surface agitation. Not sure about everyone else, but in an attempt to keep my hoses short, the output nozzle sits far enough below the surface as to not agitate the water very much...not a good thing. The power head will help with gas exchange. 

Whelp, that's all I can think of at the moment that hasn't already been answered. Sorry for regurgitating all that I have heard in the past, but your process/progress sounds so similar to when I did it not long ago that I wanted to chime in. Good luck to you!


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

MriGuy85 said:


> When I did a fish in cycle in my 20G it took me several months to get it to cycle. Right when I started getting very frustrated, I happened to check the levels and i got zeros with 10 ppm nitrates. It was a glorious moment/day. I was told do 50% WC when either ammonia or nitrIte got to 1ppm. Sounds like you're doing it right to me, but remember that although you want to keep the levels safe for the fish you also can't grow bacteria without ammonia. I found that adding some prime to detoxify the ammonia when it got to .50ppm put me at ease so I didn't freak out waiting for it to climb to 1ppm. Unfortunately, when I did mine there was fish casualty as well. This is why a lot of folks frown on the fish in cycle. Next time, I will do a fishless cycle. Anyways, several weeks before I set up my 55G tank, I ran a marineland c220 canister on the 20g and input all (4) of my filter pads in one of the trays...by then I had already removed all the carbon. I must say: for the $50 difference between the 220 and the 360, I had no problem returning the 220 and getting the 360. So, if at any point you plan on changing your tank to a larger setup, may I suggest you go with the 360 or equivalent. At first I loved the sound of trickling water from the HOBs...then it got annoying and I love the quiet peaceful setup of the 55g w/ canister. Not to mention, it looks so much cleaner (setup wise). Lets see, what else....right: I recently discovered canisters potentially require less maintenance than HOBs, but it may be a good idea to add a power head to create more surface agitation. Not sure about everyone else, but in an attempt to keep my hoses short, the output nozzle sits far enough below the surface as to not agitate the water very much...not a good thing. The power head will help with gas exchange.
> 
> Whelp, that's all I can think of at the moment that hasn't already been answered. Sorry for regurgitating all that I have heard in the past, but your process/progress sounds so similar to when I did it not long ago that I wanted to chime in. Good luck to you!


I appreciate every bit of information I can get... Especially from new folks like myself that have gone through this process so recently. Your feedback is just as valuable to me as the vets.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

Well, some good news today guys!

I got my first reading of ZERO Ammonia and ZERO Nitrite! I do believe I am complete with the cycle!

It took about 5 weeks, using API Quick Start and adding Stress Zyme once per week as suggested, along with regular water changes to keep levels safe with fish in the tank.

Not sure the Quick Start actually saved me any time, but needless to say I was pretty excited to see Ammonia and Nitrites reading 0 tonight!

I'd like to extend a hearty THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to this thread and helped me through this process! I never would have known what to do if it weren't for the friendly and experienced folks of this forum!


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