# Trying something



## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

I got an idea from several people in the forum 
So, I went out and bought some nice mushy peat and a big bag of black gravel. 





It has java fern, amazon sword, Anddd.. two ithers but I forgot what they were. 
I had the plants in a different setup for about a month. 



I am seeing a bit of growth on the purple plants. Which is great. They started as a bundle of sticks.. now I can see some root growth around the bottom. 

It got a bit murky over the weekend.  thinking there is some seep somewhere, 
But Im going to leave it up for a bit and see if the plants start to respond to the peat on the bottom. 

*pc


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

water changes will help that discoloration. Good start tho. how much lighting do you have on it?


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Looks like a double bright 8/4 white blue by marineland.

Looking good man, and yeah do some water changes and the color will come back. and it will be filtered out or settle also. So far I've had a 10G up and runing for almost a month with this same setup it's great. I'm slowing scaling back my filtering/CO2 injection/Air Injection, and no issues yet.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

good eye mec! yes I got romanced buy the glare of the double bright led. 
Well i figure give it a week or so before I water change.. so if somethings gonna leech I can get most of it before I buy fish.


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

jerichodrum said:


> good eye mec! yes I got romanced buy the glare of the double bright led.
> Well i figure give it a week or so before I water change.. so if somethings gonna leech I can get most of it before I buy fish.


I use the same fixture. Works great!


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks aquaticsnerd
thats good to hear. I admire your tanks. Hoping this one will come out well. 

BTW.. whats the tiny plant on the front left?


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

jerichodrum said:


> Thanks aquaticsnerd
> thats good to hear. I admire your tanks. Hoping this one will come out well.
> 
> BTW.. whats the tiny plant on the front left?


The red one is Nymphaea stellata (Dwarf lily). Although it isn't really dwarf. It gets pretty big. I have to trim it weekly. The green plant in the front is glosso.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

glosso.. THANKS
Ok. I like the look of it.. I would to find some of that
been to several lfs and still havent seen anything like it.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

tank looks great.

Keep us posted. Can hardly wait to see all the growth a month from now.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Blegh.. I had to take the purple plant out. I found out that it is ... DUN DUN DUUUNNN 
Purple Waffle. #@#$%^$%&%^ 
I was wondering why it was shriveling so bad.. 'Cause it doesnt belong is why. 
The java fern is not looking to well.. the anubias has some tiny, tiny sprouts.. 
I took out the comet goldfish.. Guess what I discovered? Comets will eat off plants.
will get some DECENT pictures shortly

BTW... 
anyone know about API Leaf zone or API CO2 suppliment?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Does the double bright light pretty well?Ive wanted to try it out because it is cheap and looks slimline.

On the java fern,hows it looking?Is it planted?If so,pull it up so the horizontal rhizome can get light.

Yep goldies eat plants,lol.

I have heard of the API leaf zone but not tried it.


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

The double bright LED fixture is very bright. I use the same fixture on my tank shown below.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

majerah1, the double bright does well. I removed the mopani because it was glooming the tank. (boiled it 16 hours)..
I never saw goldfish go after plants.. everyone I know with goldfish has plastic plants. 

aquatisnerd, do you think its sufficent for something that requires medium or high light? It is on my 30G BTW.. (sorry phys.. I noticed I never answered you)


Good news also.. 
I got some growth.. *w3


since I took out the purple waffle I added a couple more things. 
some crypto albida, and water sprite. 
I asked for two water sprite, and she threw in 5 babies free...


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

The light fixture should be fine for med-high light plants. Most of mine are med-high.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

aquaticsnerd said:


> The light fixture should be fine for med-high light plants. Most of mine are med-high.


cool, thanks.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

I am thinking this may not work. All but that one plant is dropping leaves, and my Ph dropped from 7.6 to 6.6 while I was at work. And I cant get the damn water to stay clear. 
I am considering just buying normal substrate and trying again next month. 

any suggestions before I tear it apart?


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

check your KH. whats it at? if you have very low KH then it will allow for a huge swing in PH. I would suggest (if nothing else has worked yet) that you get some seachem Alkaline buffer. You can get Acid buffer (to go higher than 7) or Neutral regulator (which i prefer to use) to keep things at a ph of 7. Do you use RO water? is the water out of your tap?


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

phys said:


> check your KH. whats it at? if you have very low KH then it will allow for a huge swing in PH. I would suggest (if nothing else has worked yet) that you get some seachem Alkaline buffer. You can get Acid buffer (to go higher than 7) or Neutral regulator (which i prefer to use) to keep things at a ph of 7. Do you use RO water? is the water out of your tap?


Ok. I need to get a decent test kit then. I dont trust this one.. (readings too wild). Neutral regulater.. Ok. I know where to get that. 
Its tap water.. 
The other three tanks seem fine with the fish. Which is why I was figuring its the peat/fertilizer. thats the only thing different. well besides the live plants. 

thanks
I will get on it quick.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jerichodrum said:


> Ok. I need to get a decent test kit then. I dont trust this one.. (readings too wild). Neutral regulater.. Ok. I know where to get that.
> Its tap water..
> The other three tanks seem fine with the fish. Which is why I was figuring its the peat/fertilizer. thats the only thing different. well besides the live plants.
> 
> ...


Look if you absolutely have to add stuff for kh just use baking soda. Add small amounts (like a teaspoon) then retest.

The best way is with live plants. but baking soda if you absolutely have to add stuff.


my .02


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Look if you absolutely have to add stuff for kh just use baking soda. Add small amounts (like a teaspoon) then retest.
> 
> The best way is with live plants. but baking soda if you absolutely have to add stuff.
> 
> ...


thanks beaslbob.. have live plants though. Im not sure what else to do. 
My blue Gouramis died when the Ph went wacky, while I was at work. they should have been able to handle 6.6 but I have no other answer.
The plants all look like hell.. they are turning brown faster than they are getting green.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

baking soda does work but if you have some snails, it my work better to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and some form of calcium bicarbonate (they sell it for salt water aquariums). It will help with their shells. The only problem with neutral regulator is it add phosphates to the tank water, which you'll probably put down the drain. Phosphates are bad if they get to the ocean because it precipitates calcium and magnesium, which are vital for corals. So i would suggest if you used alkaline buffer, to use acid buffer with it to get your ph down to 7.2. Its non-phosphate so its safer down the line. If you go to seachem's site, it will tell you how much you need for your tank to drop it or raise it by a certain amount. 

Furthermore, dont raise your ph more than about .2 or so everyday or it could stress your fish. So when you add your KH fixers, then do it slow. Look online for a KH calculator so you can put in good amounts without harming your fish.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow. thats a lot of info. 
I dont have snails. Theres nothing in the tank now, except plants. 
baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and calcium bicarbonate, sounds simple.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

yea, like i said, just go slow with it..


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jerichodrum said:


> thanks beaslbob.. have live plants though. Im not sure what else to do.
> My blue Gouramis died when the Ph went wacky, while I was at work. they should have been able to handle 6.6 but I have no other answer.
> *The plants all look like hell.. they are turning brown faster than they are getting green.*


IMHO that is your problem. Once the plants thrive these problems will go away.

what type of plants?

what type of tank?

what type of lighting?

what substrate?

my .02


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Thread Jack!

I think I need some calcium bicarbonate for my tank there are so many pond snails I'm worried they are not getting what they need for their shells.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

mec102778 said:


> Thread Jack!
> 
> I think I need some calcium bicarbonate for my tank there are so many pond snails I'm worried they are not getting what they need for their shells.


I hope you're joking. The only thing mine get are a finger on them that they "may" possibly feel, just about a half second before it becomes the very last sensation they experience.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> I hope you're joking. The only thing mine get are a finger on them that they "may" possibly feel, just about a half second before it becomes the very last sensation they experience.


Oh man. That's rough. no actually I like them in the tank, especially since the only fish in there are the guppies. I have plans to add a predatory type in there fish to curb the guppy population, wouldn't be all that bad if the attack fish also liked snails...


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> I hope you're joking. The only thing mine get are a finger on them that they "may" possibly feel, just about a half second before it becomes the very last sensation they experience.


Gee 

the last thing that went through thier mind was your finger? *old dude

I don't even do that. I always get a snail bloom at 2-4 months into a new tank. then a year later only 1/2 dozen or less remain. Population seems to be self limiting.


my .02


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

jerichodrum, You're having some of the same issues i had with my tank. I was using straight RO water with some seachem additives but i was using too much of it to be cost effective so i started doing a 50/50 mix of RO and tap water. My KH and GH are at a good level now (not too much, not too little). I still have to add iron and plant fertilizer (seachem Fourish and seachem iron, not the stuff you use on grass lol) to get them to grow better. My amazon sword was yellow and some others were brown. Since i added the iron they've started to get green again and the ferts help them grow better. I do have to use some alkaline buffer every once in awhile and that helps things out.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

phys said:


> jerichodrum, You're having some of the same issues i had with my tank. I was using straight RO water with some seachem additives but i was using too much of it to be cost effective so i started doing a 50/50 mix of RO and tap water. My KH and GH are at a good level now (not too much, not too little). I still have to add iron and plant fertilizer (seachem Fourish and seachem iron, not the stuff you use on grass lol) to get them to grow better. My amazon sword was yellow and some others were brown. Since i added the iron they've started to get green again and the ferts help them grow better. I do have to use some alkaline buffer every once in awhile and that helps things out.


 Hmm .. well right now I use API leaf zone once a week and API C02 every 2 days. the amazon is starting to get some sprouts, But sofar if a plant isnt brown, its turning transparent. I have no idea if its a light issue or something else.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Gee
> 
> the last thing that went through thier mind was your finger? *old dude
> 
> ...


Well, I don't like them. It mostly happens in my 125g livebearer tank. I have 2 female swordtails that will eat them out of my hand after I squash them. The second my hand or my grabbers (also use it to grab snails toward the bottom so I don't get wet all the time) enters the tank, they both crowd around waiting for me to feed them one. They love them! I do it as a matter of practice, but now it becomes a treat for my swordtails and these girls are huge so they need the extra protein.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

if its the older leaves turning transparent, they're dying off and being replaced by new leaves. if they start to do that, just trim those ones off so more nutriants go to the new leaves. this is natural. No worries really!


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

well, I tried. nothing seemed to help. The Ph dropped to 5.8. I came home tonight to brown lumps. The crypto albida melted completely. I expected some melt but dang, it went down to a nub. The java was the only thing not turned completely black. Sooo... I took the tank apart. 
Sorry guys.. I hate to be a quitter but looking at the tank made me... Soo.. I took it apart. I will try again in a week or two. Until then.. Any suggestions for hardy low light plants?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jerichodrum said:


> well, I tried. nothing seemed to help. The Ph dropped to 5.8. I came home tonight to brown lumps. The crypto albida melted completely. I expected some melt but dang, it went down to a nub. The java was the only thing not turned completely black. Sooo... I took the tank apart.
> Sorry guys.. I hate to be a quitter but looking at the tank made me... Soo.. I took it apart. I will try again in a week or two. Until then.. Any suggestions for hardy low light plants?


for a 29g I would use

15-20 bunches of anacharis

15-20 vals

10-15 small potted (small swords, crypts)

1 or two amazon swords.

with the 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pc select (or aquarium gravel substrate).

let is run a week with no fish.
the add 1 fish and not add food for a week.

then stock up the tank and start feeding 2-3 flakes per day.

2 watts/g 6500k flourescent lighting.

If the tank clouds up kill the lights for a few days then resume with less duration lighting and feeding.

Should work fine but still just my.

.02


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks beaslbob
I will work on it. 
2watts/g .. Hmmm.. Yeah.. This LED is not rated that high. Im getting mixed responses about it.
Some people use them and say they are good. Some people tell me to get rid of it.. dunno..


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

jerichodrum said:


> Thanks beaslbob
> I will work on it.
> 2watts/g .. Hmmm.. Yeah.. This LED is not rated that high. Im getting mixed responses about it.
> Some people use them and say they are good. Some people tell me to get rid of it.. dunno..


From another post

Original source

*How Bright is that LED Bulb?*
How bright is it? That’s a simple question that deserves a simple answer.
How do we compare the brightness of Compact Fluorescent Light (“CFL”) bulbs to incandescent lights? We say that a 13 watt CFL with the brightness of a 60 watt incandescent bulb is a “60 watt-equivalent, 13 watt CFL.” The CFL bulb uses only 13 watts of power (what you pay for,) but it generates the light of a 60 watt incandescent bulb. Therefore, the CFL uses only 13/60 = 22% of the power of the incandescent to generate the same brightness.
For white LED’s we use the same system, and rate our bulbs by “watt-equivalent,” with incandescent light as the reference just like before. So, a 7-watt LED that generates the brightness of a 70-watt incandescent bulb is a “70 watt-equivalent, 7 watt LED.” The LED uses only 10% of the power of the incandescent to generate the same brightness. That 90% energy savings is typical for LED’s, versus incandescents. (Incandescents are inefficient light sources: they generate over 90% heat and less than 10% light.)
That may be all you wanted to know about “how bright it is.” Just compare watt-equivalents to get an idea how that LED will compare with an incandescent in brightness.

So assuming what I posted from that document is correct
1W LED = 10W incandescent

This chart also confirms the above
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the Marineland Double Bright systems come in the below configurations:

# 18 - 24” - (6) 1W 6000K White & (3) .06W Blue LEDs 450 Lumens
# 24 - 36” - (8) 1W 6000K White & (4) .06W Blue LEDs 600 Lumens
# 36 – 48” - (16) 1W 6000K White & (8) .06W Blue LEDs 1200 Lumens

So the unit you have has eight 1W bulbs which is basically equivalent to 80W (according to the information above). So your 30G should only need 60W according to the 2W per gal. rule. I've been using LED lights on my 50G since Dec. 2010 and have seen no issues. I've since added some supplemental LED lighting for the recent plants I added as they have higher light requirements. I've also bought another 29G (no pictures yet) that I've added three LED strips to and the plants seem to be doing fine.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks aquaticsnerd. Thats good to know. In that case I will do without buying a new one. 
Not really sure why everything went so badly.


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Whats your KH numbers? that's the thing that really is needed to help keep your ph stable.. You need to have it around 120ish ppm so stay away from big swings like you may have. For some reason my KH drops continuously so i have to keep things in check there by adding some sodium bicarbonate. Your water may not have any necessary nutrients in it especially if the KH and GH are low. If so, you may need to supplement both of those and also use fertilizer to give you plants what they need. Just like humans, if they dont get the vitamins and minerals, they wither away.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

phys said:


> Whats your KH numbers? that's the thing that really is needed to help keep your ph stable.. You need to have it around 120ish ppm so stay away from big swings like you may have. For some reason my KH drops continuously so i have to keep things in check there by adding some sodium bicarbonate. Your water may not have any necessary nutrients in it especially if the KH and GH are low. If so, you may need to supplement both of those and also use fertilizer to give you plants what they need. Just like humans, if they dont get the vitamins and minerals, they wither away.


thanks. I will have to get another test kit this weekend. 
the one I bought was not very useful and too hard to read. 
(never gonna buy anything else that says topfin)

On a side note.. 
anyone know what this plant is? 





Since I moved it to a different tank it has started sprouting MORE small growth on the leaves


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Heres a really good article about what i basically stated before about kh and gh as well as minerals. I'm not sure about that plant though, but i'm sure someone is.. lol
Freshwater Aquarium Plant Care; Substrate, Ferts, CO2, and Lighting.


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

Microsorum pteropus (Java Fern)


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

aquaticsnerd said:


> Microsorum pteropus (Java Fern)


It is? Its doesnt look much like the others I bought. But then, it wasnt labled either. 
THANKS. Ok thats good to know.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Yeah java fern.I love them plants.

So now I am going to try very hard to get one of the double bright lights,the 24-36 inch one.


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

majerah1 said:


> Yeah java fern.I love them plants.
> 
> So now I am going to try very hard to get one of the double bright lights,the 24-36 inch one.


Amazon has the best price online
Amazon.com: 24-36 in. Marineland Double Bright LED Light - 8 x 1W white - 4 x .06W blue: Kitchen & Dining


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## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

I've read about the marineland double brights not being bright enough for the planted tanks. 8x1watt of led power isnt that great. 1 watt leds are not sufficiant to reach further than about 15 inches into the water and 8 watts would only be sufficiant for at most a 20 gallon lightly planted tank. I've heard the double brights work well as an addition to other lighting, not on their own. The blue lights on there are just the "moon light" leds, they wont help anything. I'd look around for other fixtures that either have more 1 watt LEDs or about the same number of 3 watt LEDs for the 29 gallon. Considering the 1 watt and 3 watt leds cost only 1-2 bucks difference, it shouldnt be too much higher in price depending on where you get them. Good luck!


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## aquaticsnerd (Jan 29, 2011)

phys said:


> I've read about the marineland double brights not being bright enough for the planted tanks. 8x1watt of led power isnt that great. 1 watt leds are not sufficiant to reach further than about 15 inches into the water and 8 watts would only be sufficiant for at most a 20 gallon lightly planted tank. I've heard the double brights work well as an addition to other lighting, not on their own. The blue lights on there are just the "moon light" leds, they wont help anything. I'd look around for other fixtures that either have more 1 watt LEDs or about the same number of 3 watt LEDs for the 29 gallon. Considering the 1 watt and 3 watt leds cost only 1-2 bucks difference, it shouldnt be too much higher in price depending on where you get them. Good luck!


Phys my tank is 17 inches deep after the substrate was added. The below photo is only with the Marineland light on. Now granted I have the unit with 16 LEDS versus the 8. In this tank I decided to buy some plants like Nesaea Pedicellata 'Golden' and have since added a Current USA TrueLumen Pro strip in addition. I wasn't adventuresome enough to bother building my own LED system. If you would like to do a DIY LED system, check out this post. He built a very good system.
Feb 21 

Mar 13


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