# Problems with fishless cycle - ammonia won't drop



## PatD

Hi gang - new to the site. Lots of good information and have been doing plenty of reading. We were reading to drop fish in our new 10 gallon tank the kids got for Christmas, until I started reading here!

My 8 year old daughter would be really sad to see her fish die (Or have issues), so we decided to do a fishless cycle. Got ammonia from Ace Hardware (The REALLY strong stuff, apparently) and got started with the sticky fishless cycle post here.

I followed jrman83's advice at the top of the thread, but made sure to read through. I did do an initial dose to find how much ammonia I would need to for 4 PPM in the 10 gallon tank. 1/2 tsp was it (I put it in, let pump run for 2 hours, checked.) So each day, I would do a 1/2 tsp and didn't bother testing for a few days as suggested. I tested on the 5th day, and among other things, found ammonia off the chart (In a minute or two, the test water was black!) We did a few water changes and ammonia is now 4-5ppm. But it's not dropping as I thought it should. So I have dosed since. It's been about a week since we got ammonia at the 4-5 range, so I figured enough time has passed that I'd start seeing it drop and need to start testing for nitrites and dose the ammonia.

Thoughts? We're also keeping the water at 85 degrees to hopefully speed things up. Kids are getting anxious for fish since it's been a month since we got the tank!


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## coralbandit

Test for nitrItes and nitrAtes.
I have seen many never detect nitrite.


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## PatD

PH - 8
Ammonia - 4
Nitrites - .25
Nitrates - Between 1-2


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## Yorg

Hi PatD:

I agree with coralbandit -- go ahead and test for nitrite and nitrates to see if the other components of the cycle have kicked in yet.

Your temperature is good for fostering the growth of the nitrifying bacteria. What is your ph?

At this stage, it's probably not necessary to add any more ammonia until you see it starting to drop down toward zero. You have plenty in there for the bacteria to feed on. Keeping it in the 2-4ppm range has worked well for me in fishless cycles.

If the ammonia won't budge and you aren't seeing any nitrates, you might want to consider trying one of the beneficial bacteria products like Tetra SafeStart or Seachem Stability. If you do, then do a water change first to dilute the ammonia down to about 2ppm so that it doesn't overwhelm the bottled bacteria. 

Congratulation on choosing to do a fishless cycle! 

-Yorg



PatD said:


> Hi gang - new to the site. Lots of good information and have been doing plenty of reading. We were reading to drop fish in our new 10 gallon tank the kids got for Christmas, until I started reading here!
> 
> My 8 year old daughter would be really sad to see her fish die (Or have issues), so we decided to do a fishless cycle. Got ammonia from Ace Hardware (The REALLY strong stuff, apparently) and got started with the sticky fishless cycle post here.
> 
> I followed jrman83's advice at the top of the thread, but made sure to read through. I did do an initial dose to find how much ammonia I would need to for 4 PPM in the 10 gallon tank. 1/2 tsp was it (I put it in, let pump run for 2 hours, checked.) So each day, I would do a 1/2 tsp and didn't bother testing for a few days as suggested. I tested on the 5th day, and among other things, found ammonia off the chart (In a minute or two, the test water was black!) We did a few water changes and ammonia is now 4-5ppm. But it's not dropping as I thought it should. So I have dosed since. It's been about a week since we got ammonia at the 4-5 range, so I figured enough time has passed that I'd start seeing it drop and need to start testing for nitrites and dose the ammonia.
> 
> Thoughts? We're also keeping the water at 85 degrees to hopefully speed things up. Kids are getting anxious for fish since it's been a month since we got the tank!


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## darkhymn

I suspect you're getting a case of impatience  The first stage of the nitrogen cycle can take 3-4 weeks without any outside influence. The second stage can take that long again. The most common suggestion for speeding things up is to find a LFS or individual with a well established tank that you can borrow or purchase some seeded filter media from. This will give you a pre-established bacteria colony to work with and hopefully get that cycle moving.
Less recommended because of its varying effectiveness is bottle starter bacteria. These can be hit or miss, but they can work to varying degrees. I used Tetra SafeStart and the first bottle had no discernible effect on my parameters. The second bottle had my tank cycled and stable in 5 days, which is not exactly the 24 hours promised on the bottle, but it did work. Also well recommended is Dr Tim's One and Only, but that is virtually never available in stores (I've never seen it), so it has to be ordered online, and of course since I haven't used it I cannot speak for its effectiveness.
Looking at your parameters, it's hard to say if you've had any bacteria growth or not, as those results are minimal. It may behoove you to test your tap water untreated to see if perhaps there are traces there throwing off your tests. It's good to have a baseline either way.


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## coralbandit

PatD said:


> PH - 8
> Ammonia - 4
> Nitrites - .25
> Nitrates - Between 1-2


Now only dose ammonia @ 1/2 the amount you used for 4ppm every 4 days. Keep up on testing .


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## joecrouse

A beneficial bacteria supplement probably wouldn't HURT (you would be better trying to find someone with a mature system who would be willing to donate some used filter material or Substrate) Some People here frown on them and have mixed experience with them. They work ok for me I am newish here and not very participatory. YMMV Not a paid spokesman all standard legal disclaimers apply yadda yadda. At WORST its a couple of bucks spent for naught at best it will seed your system a bit. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle.


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## coralbandit

^+1^
I think the fishless cycle is the PERFECT application of the "starter supplements".
With no fish it can't hurt any.
TSS(Tetra Safe Start),and dr tims one and only are both highly recommended.


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## PatD

So I haven't done anything to the take for almost a month (Other than test and add water as needed.) Here are my numbers. Thoughts? I'm thinking it's time to try a starter. Don't know anyone that can donate.

Ammonia: 2
Nitrites: .5
Nitrates: 5


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## chenowethpm

With the nitrate levels it looks like your almost there. Wait a few more days and see if the ammonia and nitrite zero out.


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## kalyke

I just started doing this myself: why not add some lava to give your nitrifying bacteria a lot of surface to grab on to? You have not mentioned your furnishings, but through your reading you probably know that they are not in the water, they are on the surface of your filter, your rocks, your castles and pirate ships or whatever you have in there. If your tank furnishing is too shiny and has no surface for the nitrosomonas and nitrobacters to hang onto, it will take you quite a while to populate your tank. For instance, those glass beads or polished stones don't have much surface. I got some good advice, I don't know who said it, but treat your aquarium as if it were another fish.


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## dhoch

We are in the process of fishless cycling a 30 gallon tank right now and were in the same position that you are in about a week ago. The ammonia was holding and not going anywhere, then all of a sudden the cycle took off and the nitrites peaked at 5 ppm. We have backed off the dosing of ammonia just as Coral Bandit has instructed you to do and the third column is coming in strong. We were just getting impatient as you are with the ammonia. We are now in the long waiting period, for the nitrites to go down. For us this has always been the longest, probably because we know we are close, but still not ready for fish in. Patience is the key. If you follow the sticky in here it will work, we have done it three times now and it has worked every time.


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## PatD

Yeh, we're finally good now (I think.) Put fish in last weekend so everyone is happy so far this week. Took two months almost to the day.

Next we need to start learning about water changes and filter cleaning. It's mentioned when discussing adding/changing water that the new water should be the same temp as the tank. We're keeping it at 75 for neon tetras. 10 gallon tank. Since we need to add in the de-chlorinating mix and let it sit, how do we best accomplish adding water at the same temp as the tank? Or is room temp water (68) OK?


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## kalyke

PatD said:


> Yeh, we're finally good now (I think.) Put fish in last weekend so everyone is happy so far this week. Took two months almost to the day.
> 
> Next we need to start learning about water changes and filter cleaning. It's mentioned when discussing adding/changing water that the new water should be the same temp as the tank. We're keeping it at 75 for neon tetras. 10 gallon tank. Since we need to add in the de-chlorinating mix and let it sit, how do we best accomplish adding water at the same temp as the tank? Or is room temp water (68) OK?



I've bought another heater for my 5 gallon water bucket. When I change more, I just do it over a few days. Since you only have a 10 gallon, you would probably only change about 2.5 gallons.


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## dhoch

Neons are fragile fish. You will need to bring the temp up close to the temp of the tank. We have neons and they do not fair well if we don't keep the new water temp to within a degree or so of tank temp. As far as water changes change the amount of water you need to in order to get your nitrates in order. For example, if your nitrates are at 20 ppm you would do a 50% water change to get them to 10 ppm. We clean 1/2 the tank once a week and swish the opposite side filter material in the tank water that we just pulled from the tank (by clean I mean vacuum the substrate and clean the decorations in the water we just pulled from the tank). We always do a 50% water change with cleaning and as needed for the rest of the week.


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