# Fish are just dropping over dead



## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Tank:
125gallon
Filtration: FX5
12 Assorted African Cichlids(about 2-3 inches)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
Ph: 7.6
Lava Rock with sand

Fishless cycle took about 2 months and followed it to the letter. Tank has been up and running with fish for 2 months now.

Ok here is the scoop. About 2 weeks ago i had a nasty nitrate spike(over 100) I caught it fairly early. I did multiple water changes, added duckweed, and added 2 Fluval Clearmax media to the filter. Got it under control in under 48 hours. The tap water has about 10ppm nitrates.
One fish died during that time very slowly. Since that time, 2 fish have died almost instantly. I fed them in the morning and no one was showing any negative signs, then literally 2-3 hours later they're upside down and dead. Now another is dying very slowly. just sitting at the bottom mouth opening and closing. I don't get it, water chemistry is perfect and I have been very stickler about my WC for these 2 months. 
Please help as I don't like seeing fish that i picked out and spent a good chunk of change on die. Thank you.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Well I did a few more tests and found that my tap water is very high in ph(about 8.8). So by the time I do a WC each week the ph in the tank has dropped to 7.6, but when I add the new water it's at 8.8. Could this be the cause? If so, what is the best way to deal with this? Get the new water down to match the tank water ph? Or gradually raise the tank water ph so that is closely matches the new water?


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## kalyke (Nov 19, 2014)

First I would try to save the fish. If they are still fairly small, you can keep them in buckets or tubs or other temporary tanks with a filter and heater. Use RO water to avoid the bad tap water you feel you are having. Do a massive water change. Remember amquell or whatever you use to dechlorinate. Start the cycle again if you must. Possibly treat the fish for bacterial or biological illness because you do not know the cause of death. 

That is what I would do. I am no expert, but I do feel saving the fish should be your priority.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Sounds to me like ph shock. that is a big jump from what they are used to. What I would do is start mixing ro or distilled water with your water change water and slowly bring it back down. Once down you will have to mix like that until it changes at the tap.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Because it's such a big tank, I am using the Python water changer hooked to my faucet. What would be the best way to mix the ro water? Just pour some in the tank as it's refilling from the faucet? How much would you suggest I mix? I usually change about 25-30% of the 125gallons every week.


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## kalyke (Nov 19, 2014)

So, you have a python hooked to your faucet? You are not treating for chlorine? You are just pumping municiple water into the 120? 

I would guess they were dying of chlorine or chloramine posioning. 

The water needs to be treated before it gets in the tank.

I believe that lake malawe has a ph of about 8. That would not be the problem


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Of course I treat the water. I do so with Prime. Just trying to figure out how much RO water to mix in with the tap water to get it close to the 7.6ph of the tank so I stop shocking them over and over with each water change. Having a bit of trouble finding out some good information on this. Can anyone help out or point me in the right direction.


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## kalyke (Nov 19, 2014)

I meant take the fish out and put them in a bucket. Use the ro water to keep them alive. The water in your 120 is probably not salvageable.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

What I would do is put the fish in a bucket with ph of what they are used to and slowly drip acclimate to ph of tank that way you won't have to mess with it at each water change.


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

The problem seems to be that the PH keeps dropping from the original tap of 8.8 to 7.6 after settling in the tank a while. I would do one experiment first. Fill a bucket/barrel with tap and test PH immediately - I'm assuming it would be the 8.8 you reported. Let it sit over night and test again. Repeat the test as needed to see how long it takes to get down to the 7.6. If it stays high, then maybe something in the tank is pulling it down. If it comes down after a day or two, you may want to start aging your water before filling the tank. I know - no python for this way.

Another thing to try is one of the cichlid substrates that are supposed to buffer your water to maintain the higher PH. Something like Caribsea African Cichlid mix or Eco Complete Cichlid. I have no experience with how well these work, but if it's worth it, you could also experiment with one of these. Put some in the bottom of a barrel and add your tap. Test, then wait a day or two and test again to determine if they will hold the higher PH. This would be your best option if they indeed hold the higher PH as you could then continue to use your python and tap water.

CaribSea African Cichlid Mix

OR

CaribSea African Cichlid Mix


Whichever PH level you decide to stay with, fish may have to be reaccliminated.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

susankat said:


> What I would do is put the fish in a bucket with ph of what they are used to and slowly drip acclimate to ph of tank that way you won't have to mess with it at each water change.


Sorry it's late, what do you mean? They are used to the 7.6 ph that is currently in the tank. 

Also, since my tap water is 8.8(which i think is high even for cichlids, or is it still ok?) what should I get the ph of the tank to so that the 8.8 doesn't shock them? 8.2?


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

SueD said:


> Whichever PH level you decide to stay with, fish may have to be reaccliminated.


What do you mean reacclimated?


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

You are basically having a little over a 1.0 drop/rise in pH. I have a 1.1 drop in pH everyday when my co2 comes on. I don't think the pH drop is the problem. Now the 8.8 pH might be . just my opinion and experience with pH drops.


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

mijotter said:


> What do you mean reacclimated?


If you stay with the 7.6 and determine that aging your water first would bring about this result, then you would be OK.

If you determine that a substrate change would keep the PH higher - closer to your tap PH - and you want to go that way, you may want to move the fish to a container with the 7.6 water while raising the PH gradually to the desired level. You could do this by slowly adding new (dechlorinated) tap at the higher PH level.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

I did a hardness test of the tank water and the tap. 4 days after my last water change and the GH is 6(107.4ppm) while the KH is 4(71.6ppm), the tap water is 3KH and 6GH. I used the API liquid tests. This seems low for African Cichlids. If so how can I raise it? Basically the ph from the tap and tank changes a good amount but the hardness remains roughly the same...weird.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Any thoughts on the hardness? Also, I put some untreated tap water in a bucket and let it sit over night. I tested the ph after about 16 hours and it dropped to about 7.9 so almost a whole point. The ph drops fast in the tap water. Does this help me at all?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

mijotter said:


> Any thoughts on the hardness? Also, I put some untreated tap water in a bucket and let it sit over night. I tested the ph after about 16 hours and it dropped to about 7.9 so almost a whole point. The ph drops fast in the tap water. Does this help me at all?


Your water is super saturated with oxygen and once exposed to our atmosphere begins to absorb CO2.
This drives down your pH to what should be considered its real reading(NOT 8.8!).
Let it sit 24 hours ,2 days , all week.
As long as it takes to settle and stop dropping.This will be the pH of your water.
If you have AC then you need crushed coral,dolomite or some other hardness,pH raising substrate.
I sell my GBR in 7.6 pH/12 gH/3-4 kh.
It is not sounding like have the hard water you thought?


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

coralbandit said:


> Your water is super saturated with oxygen and once exposed to our atmosphere begins to absorb CO2.
> This drives down your pH to what should be considered its real reading(NOT 8.8!).
> Let it sit 24 hours ,2 days , all week.
> As long as it takes to settle and stop dropping.This will be the pH of your water.
> ...


What do you mean by AC? No my water is pretty soft. I bought a 15lbs bag of Caribsea Crushed Coral. I've read that taking some pantyhose and making a mesh bag for the crushed coral will work. I want to place it in my FX5. Will any brand of pantyhose work? How much crushed coral should I put in the filter? It won't raise the hardness and ph too fast will it? Thanks.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

mijotter said:


> What do you mean by AC? No my water is pretty soft. I bought a 15lbs bag of Caribsea Crushed Coral. I've read that taking some pantyhose and making a mesh bag for the crushed coral will work. I want to place it in my FX5. Will any brand of pantyhose work? How much crushed coral should I put in the filter? It won't raise the hardness and ph too fast will it? Thanks.


AC;African Cichlid.
Use small amount(1/2 cup) at first to see.
I think in the canister is a PIA but if you don't use too much it may not be a problem.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

I put two cups worth in 100% nylon 2 days ago. So far no change. Is this a very gradual thing?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

mijotter said:


> I put two cups worth in 100% nylon 2 days ago. So far no change. Is this a very gradual thing?


No not normal.
Usually you should see some rise pretty quick.
Add more.


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

I suspect much the fish die from poisoning with ammonia.
If the pH is greater than 8, formed during the degradation of the protein waste ammonia. In normal pH ammonium would arise. This is harmless and is further degraded normal (nitrite, nitrate).
Avoid high pH.
I read the pH goes back alone. Perhaps they hold times the water for some time in reserve before use.
Maybe the water plant has a reason to add the alkaline substance. It is not harmful in drinking water. Maybe it disappears by itself by outgas or flocculate.
I would try that.


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## kalyke (Nov 19, 2014)

Atrhur7 has a good point. The deaths and dying are most likely due to the original nitrate spike. Think of it like a person went in a burning building and burned too much smoke. The damage to his lungs developed pneumonia, and it slowly took him 3 weeks to die. 

Why and how did the nitrates spike. That should have followed an ammonia spike. That is due to tank maintenence, over feeding, over stocking. If clean clear water is flowing in and out your tank at acceptable rates such a thing would not have happened.


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

There is a difference between ammonium and ammonia.
Ammonium is a normal form in the nitrogen cycle. It is not toxic. It is further reduced to nitrite (toxic) and this to nitrate (not toxic).
But Ammonia is very toxic. It kills the fish. It arises only when the pH is greater than the eighth
Once again, you have to avoid the high pH sure.
You have taken the test, with the bucket. After 16 hours, the pH back to 7.9.
This is the right way. Never over 8. May be some hours more.
Now they can say that Malawi's friends have all this danger.
But in the big lake, the protein degradation does not have the harmful influence on the fish, because there is enough space.


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## Waterworlds (Apr 12, 2015)

Hello, I joined this site a few days ago. I was Looking up a filter and somehow it took me to your post. Anyways, I registered and had to wait for approval to post to you.

We keep African Cichlids. We had to fish in cycle our tank as we rescued the fish and purchased the tank separately. We also had a huge nitrate spike about a week or so after it was "cycled

The first thing I can say is that you should not use the Python to just add the water to the tank. You need to create a buffer for the Cichlids first in the freshwater. We purchased two large food safe trash cans at lowes. This is how we do our water changes:

8 teaspoons of kosher salt and baking soda to each can
One half tablespoon Epsom salt to each can 
6 mil of prime (we have a 125 gallon) to each can

With a water thermometer we get the tap water to about 79 degrees and then fill each can. After they are full, we use the Python to remove the water. Sometimes we also use a hose to suck up the waste because we use sand and the Python won't work on sand. We refill the tank by small plastic handheld pitchers.


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## Waterworlds (Apr 12, 2015)

I also wanted to mention a few other things. It seems like you may be new to fishkeeping? People were advising you to take the fish out of the tank and put them in a temporary situation so you can get your oh right. 8.8 is off the charts high for them and is probably why they are dying.

Reacclimate means that when your water in the tank was right, you drip acclimate the fish to acclimate them to the new tank water. You can watch a YouTube video on this process. However, I don't think you took your fish out.

You can get your ph right by using the method I just wrote about and letting the water sit overnight for a day or two. Your problem is your tap water has a very high ph and you cannot fix it with a quick fix.

Your crushed coral will help keep the ph the right level once the tank is established, but you need to start out on the right foot by not putting high ph water in your tank directly from the faucet.

Hope it works out for you and the fish

I do 50% water changes weekly.


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

In our old club professional breeders. They all have a large fish room. I helped out sometimes on vacation.
The top floor pool on the shelves was only fresh water for quieting and temper. It was later lowered to the water changes and top if empty, pushed up to 6 bar water pressure.
I am not a professional. But I've tried to do after.
On a shelf above the door to the kitchen and bathroom (in the hallway) I had three plastic tubs a 'positioned 60 l. Were associated with U-tubes, the ends in low bowls so that they could be empty Never.
Thus it was possible, all 3 to empty and to fill the same time.
You could not see it was a curtain.
It was very convenient to change 2 times a week 180 l.
On the problem with the alkaline tap water: Ask times in your water supplier. Sometimes such an admixture is only temporary.
There it was also here that human pathogens had to be killed in drink water. But I was always warned us. About the Club.

Yet another thing: Ammonia is very toxic. But each depends on the concentration of poison. If you are substances less protein yield (food), then even less ammonia.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

I added 4 cups of the Caribsea GEO-MARINE Argonite Formula Florida Crushed Coral. I used nylons and put them on the top rack of my FX5. It hasn't budged the ph or hardness at all in a month. Do I need to add more or is this not the right kind of crushed coral? I'd rather not add it straight to the tank as I have black sand and HATE the black and white salt and pepper look. Thanks!


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

You no longer have to admit. Watch as the substance decreases. When it's gone, replaced
Whenever acidification is dissolves a little calcium bicarbonate and neutralized. The stone becomes smaller.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm sorry I didn't understand your post at all...


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

I'll explain
You have Coral added 4 cups.
You asked whether there should be more.
My answer. Not necessary.

Coral is calcium oxid. It is used to stabilize the pH. (Against acidification).
Mode of operation: Whenever the water will become acidic (pH less than 7)
dissolves a little of the coral as calcium bicarbonate. Thereby the pH is neutral again. The coral is it smaller. Approximately after 1 year he's gone.
Then must be replaced. By the dissolved bicarbonate and the hardness increases (very slowly.)

The to the last post.

Of course it is not a recipe to avoid the high pH.
Since you can only stick out the water long enough beforehand.
It works. You've tried it yet.
But Malawi are not sensitive to high pH. But the breakdown of waste produced ammonia, and not ammonium.
Ammonia is very toxic.
Are you sure that it comes with 8.8 from the tap?
In the drinking water systems that is normally avoided because the pipes would rapidly calcify inside.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

How is tank doing?
Any recent deaths?
What fish do you now have?
What is the tank parameters?
I would test tap again as many municipalities experience seasonal swings.
My municipal water is pulled from local wells(4).
Hope things are getting better.


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