# proposed beaslbob demonstration tank.



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

About 2 years ago we moved to a new house and most of my stuff including tanks are now in boxes in the garage.

I'll be on vacation for a week starting next tuesday (1may2012 for later arrivers) and have started moving boxes to the attic.

Once the garage is straightened out I thought it would be a good time to restart some of the old 10 and 20f tanks still just setting around. Even better to document them here as kinda a demostration.

I will be following the methods in the link in my signature. So feel free to post those things you find the most surprising.

Before this all starts I do think it important to have some general idea of exactly what would be considered success especially to someone who has setup a tank for the very first time. Obviouly, if fish lived to 10 years most would consider that a partial success but I have no intention of a 10 year project. By contrast a fish surviving for a couple of days would not be a good test either.

So what would you guys and gals consider a minimum success criteria?

And what parameters would you like measured. I intend to measure ammonia/nitrIte/nitrAte/pH/kh/gh/ and possibly phosphates. Any other easy to do test you want I might try also.

So have at it and at least it will help me be motivated to 1) finish the garage and 2) resetup the tanks.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

If I were going to do another natural tank, I would follow Diana Walsteds method over this. And this type of tank I wouldn't suggest for newbies. Too many things can go wrong.

this one worth at least $2.00


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I say if your going to do an experiment and show newbs and all your actual methods we need pics as the build progressis.Cant remove plants without showing before and after pics and same with fish.This will help us see a timeline type deal.I think a pic of all the steps done,so others can see it as its being done and also a pic a day.I say a good time to determine if its a success or fail would be,oh lets say three months?That should give plants plenty of time to transition to the new setup and to also see if they are thriving or not.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

It would need to be at least a year to determine success, as that is measured in years not months.

My .99 worth


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Hm now that I think about it,a year does sound more reasonable.That way others can see if there is any chance of a tank crash after a few months of setup.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Very Sweet Bob. 

Success criteria, I think, is subjective to each person, depending on what the person considers a success.

Personally, I want to see you take and post lots of pictures. I want to see your tank(s)


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Yea....like to see the progression or regression of a beaslebob tank over the course of a year. Daily, or at least weekly pictures would be good.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

If you aren't sure about maintaining a post for a year, talk to James0816....


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

All i know is this thread better not do away with what would be considered the "normal" safe practices of tank keeping or it will get shut down before it is started. Same goes for the SW thread.

Worth at least: your continued access to the site.

What is it that you would be demonstrating? That you can grow a plant? It's been done.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Well, first off this like any other experiment needs to have a few things:
-What are your short and long term goals of the experiment?
-What is your hypothesis?
-What can be ulimately gained from this experiment?
- And finally what will be the measurement of success?

The last item is what I feel will be the true grade of this experiment. If your definition of success is simply keeping a few fish and plants alive, well I have a 4 year old that is capable of that with more accepted methods. However, if you were able to use your techniques and show steady growth, vibrant colors, fish having the ability to combat illness, and plants with growth, color, and lushness comparable to accepted methods I feel then you can call the experiment a success. Otherwise nothing concidered to be substantial can be taken from this experiment and you will be left looking lazy and cruel. I feel that the goal of any aquarium is to attempt to raise the healthiest specimens kept as possible using any/all means availible. I wish you luck on this project.


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## frogwings (Aug 26, 2011)

IMHO:

I sit here pondering Bob’s online chats,
And picture Bob’s fish as tiny test rats.
Should a tank be a test tube for one to play God,
Changing environs without even a nod?

Experimentations are all well and good,
But, because we “can” does it mean we should?
That tiny tetra would prefer its "natural" home,
So, into strange waters, why would it roam?

All tanks are experiments, with that I agree,
But, would one force a chicken to live in a tree?
I prefer to view nature in its "natural" state,
Or, as close as possible, at any rate.

Just my thoughts on the subject at hand,
It is not my intention to reprimand,
But to bring attention to the creatures we tend,
Because, it is on us, that they depend.

Unless Newbies start out with that “tried and true”,
They just may end up with an ugly venue!


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Frog, that was actually pretty awesome for having such short notice. I appreciate your creativity.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

OK, its time to stop. I will say this, no matter the outcome the thread is not to be pulled. Anyone is allowed to express their own opinions on this build as with any other build. And that is what this is suppose to be.

Bob, please don't promote the part about not using dechlorinator. As in most areas that are using chloramine that user will have to use something as it does not dissapate. If you promote not using any it will be looked upon as being cruel to fish. Whether you feel you don't have to use it is your own right but don't push it on others.

I will be keeping a close eye on both these threads and if they get out of hand I will lock them and give infractions out to those that deserves them.
__________________


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

I agree that a year is a better test than 3 months. My beaslbob build worked great for 3 months, but then started going downhill from there. A video of the tank once a month (or once a week if you feel up to it) would be worth more than daily pictures if you ask me. Fish behavior can not be captured in a simple snapshot. A video would show whether the fish are active and happy and not simply hovering and existing.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> OK, its time to stop. I will say this, no matter the outcome the thread is not to be pulled. Anyone is allowed to express their own opinions on this build as with any other build. And that is what this is suppose to be.
> 
> Bob, please don't promote the part about not using dechlorinator. As in most areas that are using chloramine that user will have to use something as it does not dissapate. If you promote not using any it will be looked upon as being cruel to fish. Whether you feel you don't have to use it is your own right but don't push it on others.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I will not promote not using dechlorinators. I presume I can report and document what happens.

FWIW My water supply does use chlormines.

would it be a good idea to test for chlorine also?

I presume fish in a chlorine ammonia free environment is not being cruel.

I encourage you to keep an eye on these threads. And everyone else. And to post questions or comments as they feel. Even "cruel" comments. I am mature enough to take those comments as constructive. *old dude

If nothing else I have spawned a new rap hit. *r2


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

luananeko said:


> I agree that a year is a better test than 3 months. My beaslbob build worked great for 3 months, but then started going downhill from there. A video of the tank once a month (or once a week if you feel up to it) would be worth more than daily pictures if you ask me. Fish behavior can not be captured in a simple snapshot. A video would show whether the fish are active and happy and not simply hovering and existing.


What do you mean started going downhill? What does it look like now and are you doing the same thing?


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> What do you mean started going downhill? What does it look like now and are you doing the same thing?


I ran my 30 gallon tank under beaslbob's methods for about 6 months before upgrading to my 75 gallon. The only difference I had was that I kept my Rena Smartfilter (I forget the model, might have been a 50) running rather than leaving everything stagnant, but I did stop changing the filter cartridges. The first month all the fish seemed active, happy, and colorful. Water tests all came out good, no bad levels of anything. Months 2 & 3, fish started being less active, but still had good color. I attributed it to just them settling in and no longer exploring the tank since they had learned where everything was. Month 4 things started getting worse... Fish started "hovering" and being generally uninteresting, and my dwarf chain loaches were hiding almost constantly. I honestly thought 2 of them had died since I only ever saw one out swimming among the rest of the fish. 

In month 5, I had a tank disaster caused by a heater malfunction that caused me to swap heaters and unplug the new heater while waiting for the tank to cool. Somehow I missed getting it plugged back in for two weeks and found out when I was investigating why two of my guppies had died. I attribute this to my own fault, not beaslbob's methods, but the lack of constant maintenance did put me into a mindset that I didn't need to constantly check water parameters. By month 6, I had lost a black neon tetra, another 2 guppies, and could no longer attribute it to just leftover problems from the earlier heater disaster. My dragonscale betta also finally lost its battle against its tumors. I think that was bad genetics, but I'm sure the poor water quality didn't help. The substrate by this time was positively disgusting and covered in piles of fish crap (thanks to limited water flow, no water changes, and no vacuuming), and the tank as a whole smelled terrible. My red tiger lotus also had nearly completely died off, while I was fighting a losing battle to get rid of long green strings of what seemed like string algae that was choking my green cabomba. The hygro polysperma and ludwigia were both going crazy at least.

Some additional information to note... I found out while tearing down the old tank that the roots of my red tiger lotus had rotted where it came into contact with the peat moss, and my LFS told me that the peat moss was likely making my naturally soft water way too soft, which likely was another part of why my tank crashed under beaslbobs methods.

I've now upgraded to a 75 gallon tank that went through a month long dry start to get the foreground plants rooted. It has 2-4 inches of gravel at the bottom, followed with 1 inch of eco-complete, and a light sprinkling of gravel on top of that since I prefer the gravel look. It's running with a Emperor 400 filter, and previously had the old Rena Smart Filter until the filter died on me this weekend. I'll be adding a Rena Filstar XP3 once I have the extra funds to replace the broken filter. The tank has been filled with water and the previous 30 gallon inhabitants (which is when I rediscovered my 2 hidden loaches) and been running happily for the last 2 months, including a new betta and 6 new guppies (waited a month after adding old inhabitants before adding the betta and guppies). I do 50% water changes weekly, and dose fets and Seachem Excel at the same time. All the fish are super active and colorful, more so than they were even at the best of times in the beaslbob build. You can see some of the pictures in my 75 gallon album, although I still need to get a full tank shot in there.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Thank you for sharing, did you notice a difference in the fish's rate of growth between the two methods?


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

CrazyMFFM said:


> Thank you for sharing, did you notice a difference in the fish's rate of growth between the two methods?


Most of my fish were pretty close to full grown before I swapped to live plants, as I had been running the tank with artificial plants for about a year prior. As such, their growth was relatively negligible, plus I couldn't see them too much after the first 3 months as they all started hiding and hovering in the plants. I did notice that I had a black neon tetra that looked normal prior to the swap to beaslbob's methods, and is now rather fat/deformed looking. I can't figure out what's wrong with it, as I've treated for constipation and parasites with no change. The other neons all look normal. That's something for a different topic though...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

My disagreement with the beaslbob approach is its one size fits all. I can't see such an experiment proving anything, as long as Bob promotes his method for every fish.
I have no disagreement with a swamp fish tank using Bob's borrowed methods. I think it could work, in a large, low, shallow tank. I just don't think it's workable for fish from flowing rivers or vibrant lakes, for fish from streams, ponds or any other non stagnant biotope. It emulates what happens when fish are trapped by seasonal drought in drying ponds or cut off river bends. Certainly, many species will have developed a tolerance to such natural traps, or they wouldn't be here. 
But they have developed the ability to survive until better times. There are no better times coming for a fish in a beaslbob build.

I was going to make one myself, to see. Then I realized that in this system, everything is based on not very informative water testing. I didn't want to keep any fish in the mess that water would quickly become. I am sure I could keep fish alive in a stagnant tank, but I can't get past the idea of why I would bother. I can't see the point of the experiment. I had tanks like that when I was young, and they were awful.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

> Bob said,I presume fish in a chlorine ammonia free environment is not being cruel.


Yes that is not cruel but chlorine does dissapate: what happens with the chloramine in the tank? It does not dissapate and I don't think that all the plants won't remove it within a week before adding fish.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Yes that is not cruel but chlorine does dissapate: what happens with the chloramine in the tank? It does not dissapate and I don't think that all the plants won't remove it within a week before adding fish.


Ok so how about I test ammonia and chlorine.

If the chlorine from our local water supply show unmeasureable chlorine would that be a sufficient demonstration?


to me an even better test (before adding fish) would be to add some ammonia after the ammonia tests 0. then see how fast the ammonia drops. Especially with a brand new setup where there is a minimum of aerobic bacteria. 

And of course not adding fish until the reading is unmeasureable again.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

It would have to be mixed in very well. Depending on the size of the tank, you'd have to test in multiple places in the tank. Nothing to move the water around means things will just sit in one place and not mix. Plants alone will not move water around.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

Pick three or four different places to test maybe? Center, front, back, corners seems like it would be very comprehensive.


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## em1y386SX (Apr 10, 2012)

My problem with this is, the lack of water movement, keeping fish in standing water is a big no no in my book.

Recommending this method to beginners s just asking for problems, however if bob treats this as an experiment and properly documents what is going on in the tank, it would make for an interesting read, not just the lazy mans guide to keeping fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay Bob, just answer this question: What is the intent of the thread and what is it you are trying to show or demonstrate?

I don't think anyone has doubted that whatever way you want to do your tanks will grow plants. All they need is light and CO2 and the CO2 is already in the water. that doesn't need to be demonstrated. As far as fish YOU CANNOT SHOW FISH HEALTH IN A PIC. You'll never know how much you are impacting their exact lifespan and I am sure that if fish are dying we are unlikely to hear about it. You are THE worst about putting up pics anyway, so video will probably be way out of the expectation.

I personally feel that this is just some big personal horn blowing scheme where you can toot your own horn. I have read what you have posted about this site on other sites. Your way of setting up things IMO, is much more difficult than any of my 5 planted tanks and your method are no better than any of those.

So exactly what is the point? Showing a newbie "how little" maintenance you can get away with is reckless and dangerous to the fish they want to keep, not even you can argue that. If this is all about plants and no fish.....go for it! I'd be glad to see what you'd have to offer on the plants, since this is where you put this thread.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I think it all comes down to simple respect, or not, for how fish have evolved. Either we respect their natural histories and try to keep them in environments based on our always incomplete knowledge (in which case we have an excuse to learn), or we don't. We can ignore nature and pop them into stagnant tanks, where they will linger. But ignore and ignorance go together so neatly. I don't think any of us are in the hobby for that.

I also note Bob rarely discusses fish - it seems to mainly be plants and water chemistry. That's what the tank is.

But I don't see the point of the demonstration. It's not an experiment, with no controls. I guess as a tank journal, it might be interesting to follow. It may also give us something to squabble about, which might be entertaining. It doesn't seem very constructive, but what the heck, I'll read it and look at the pictures.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

I have given this project some serious thought over the past 24 hrs or so and I have come to a few conclusions. The biggest issue is tank size, if one wanted to replicate a natural environment with a self sustaining tank you would realisticly need a very large tank, approx 250-300g. The reasoning for this is that when a fish urinates or deficates it should have little effect on the water quality, also this newly simulated 'pond' would need to be very lightly stocked to replicate a natural body of water as closely as possible. Another thing is you would be limited to pond fish of some sort, possibly blue gill or pumpkin seed because trying to create water currents and water exchange rates associated with rivers or creeks in an artificial setting is just short of impossible. My next issue is that there absolutely must be some form of water movement. All ponds are either fed by a creek or fed by a spring which means that there will be a light current and fresh water brought into the eco system. I think that this may be acomplished by using a small power head and some sort of overflow system so when you top off the tank every few days the old water never returns to the tank. Attention must also be paid to the water perameters the fish came from and great effort must be spent trying to replicate these conditions as well. Also, last but not least if you were to do this properly, live natural foods must be fed to keep the simulation as close to real as possible.

I am sure most of you have already studied this subject and are far more advanced in this subject than I am, I am simply stating what I have observed from my knowledge from fishing and keeping aquariums and my speculation on the subject. Bob I can appreciate the work you have done for one reason, I have a better understanding of what a fish can tolorate and endure. Your research has shown that they (the fish) are highly adaptable animals. With that being said I do not agree with your methods, research for the sake of research that causes poor conditions for the specimen resulting in high possiblilities of critical failure.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

first of all this will give me some incentive to 

1) clean up the garage

2) restart my old tanks.



If anyone wants to make it more scientific they are welcome to start their own system with their own methods conducting the same test I am.

I do not accept that these methods

1) have no circulation

2) have no filtration

3) stress the fish in anyway

4) are maintenance free.

5) chloramine never dissipates.

FWIW my local water supply does use chloramines.

So in a couple of weeks hopefully I'll have clear up the garage. (well probably more like 3 weeks). And started a 10g using the methods I have used since 1979. 

So if nothing else it will be a case of doing what I say. Before I just had tanks that had ran for years and years. but now it's like when I moved around in the air force and had to restart.

Still just my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I do not accept that these methods
> 
> 1) have no circulation
> 
> ...


Of course not. It wouldn't suit your purpose if you did.

Again, what is the purpose of doing this?


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## Subaru4wd (May 6, 2011)

I dont understand the point of this thread.

Is it to just talk about doing something, or are you going to actually do something?? And why do you need our approval... just do it.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> first of all this will give me some incentive to
> 
> 1) clean up the garage
> 
> ...


*whip**whip*
RED FLAG....Anyone reading this stuff be aware....THIS IS HOW YOU CRASH A TANK!!! Now, lets all watch him do it!
*nonenone4none4none4


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> *whip**whip*
> RED FLAG....Anyone reading this stuff be aware....THIS IS HOW YOU CRASH A TANK!!! Now, lets all watch him do it!
> *nonenone4none4none4


Any more questions on why I'm doing this thread? *old dude


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You mean more questions you won't answer? I guess you have to be a newbie for you to spend time giving an answer to something....someone that doesn't know any better than what you tell them.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Bob, if you will please explain to me how your methods promote fish health. I simply want to understand this a bit better. I don't understand how fish can thrive in this system.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

CrazyMFFM said:


> Bob, if you will please explain to me how your methods promote fish health. I simply want to understand this a bit better. I don't understand how fish can thrive in this system.


How should I know? they just work.

but then to attempt to understand IMHO one must first ask the question what do fish need to stay healthy other than thriving plants? On very large systems like lakes and oceans not even added food. On our smaller tanks sure you have to add food.

but other then added food what is not provided by the plant action?

my .02


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Bob, where do you get any circulation in your tank? You've said before you don't believe that your tanks have no circulation and are not stagnant. Can you explain why you think that? Since you don't use any filtration other than the plants, how is the water not stagnant? The only reason my tank had any movement when I was trying your method was because I didn't want to remove my HOB filter, and even then you encouraged me to take it off.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Before this gets into a big bad debate, I want an answer to one question!

What is the purpose of this thread anyway?

It looks more like one that has the sole purpose for arguement. I want an answer to this or I will shut this thread down>


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Also if this is to show which way is better, you need to set up 2 tanks everything the same except one must have filtration and all.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

susankat said:


> Before this gets into a big bad debate, I want an answer to one question!
> 
> What is the purpose of this thread anyway?
> 
> It looks more like one that has the sole purpose for arguement. I want an answer to this or I will shut this thread down>


As I explained before

1) to get my garage cleaned up

2) to start up tanks.

3) to demonstrate these methods.

I will not argue with anyone.

But I will give facts and documentation and answer questions.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

But you're not answering the questions that would seem to be fairly simple for you to answer.....what is the intent of the demonstration? What is it you intend to show?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

jrman83 said:


> But you're not answering the questions that would seem to be fairly simple for you to answer.....what is the intent of the demonstration? What is it you intend to show?


that is the question I want answered, this thread has no concerns on cleaning your garage. And if its just a thread to show newcomers how to set up a tank and be lazy in keeping it the thread is useless and I won't let it go any further.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> But you're not answering the questions that would seem to be fairly simple for you to answer.....what is the intent of the demonstration? What is it you intend to show?


If you have a specific question I'll answer that. As long as my answer is not considered argumentative.

People can also pm or email me if they see something they do not understand.

Besides getting me fired up to restart my tanks, the intent I thought was already answered with reef madness predicting this will be how to crash a tank.

I intend to show this method will produce a successful tank.

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

All this shows me is a tank that is stagnant, not nice to look at. And you want to induce new comers to use your method. And it also shows you don't advocate the use of dechlorinators as in your opinion it reduces O2 in the tank which is false. Plants raise PH which is false. The use of peat in the tank can be harmful if it isn't used right. Chlorine will dissapate but chloromine will not which is just as bad as keeping fish in a toilet.

And yes I did ask a specific question and was not answered till now. Just to show people the method works. It may work but its not the best way as it is not healthy for the fish or plants. Plants need circulation and since your tank doesn't provide that they look scraggley and unhealthy. The entire tank looks unhealthy.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> If you have a specific question I'll answer that. As long as my answer is not considered argumentative.
> 
> People can also pm or email me if they see something they do not understand.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're getting the push you need to get your tanks going again. We all hate to see them just laying around.

As far as the intent, I guess I'm just a little fuzzy as to why? Are there too many unsuccessful ways being pushed on here or nobody have successful planted tanks? Like I said earlier if your intent was to show how to grow plants....nobody argues that you know how, even with your methods. Nobody disbelieves that you did this or that in your tanks and had X outcome. What you intend to show has been done. Short of disturbing the substrate (so to speak) and trying to seemingly push or "highlight" your method I just don't see why it is needed on here. The site pushes for what are the "normal" practices of what the majority of the community believes are the safest methods. The fact that your ideas/beliefs are counter to that makes it altogether a bad idea from where I sit. 

Your idea...attach a poll and see how many want to see you do what you proposed. Let "this" community decide.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Bob I have a better question, how do you call your fish a success? They have been submitted to poor water conditions, not been given even the most basic husbandry, you have admitted to greatly overstocking them before, and you leave a known harmful chemical in the water and force them to live in it. I would go as far as to say your tanks are marginally more successful than a road kill cat. I asked you to please explain to me how your methods could be successful before and you said that you didn't know. The reason for that appears to be that there is no success to be derived from your methods other than not having to do what every other self respecting aquarist does to take care of thier animals.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

If nothing else I'll get some handle on how fast the chloramines dissipate.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> If nothing else I'll get some handle on haw fast the chloramines dissipate.


How?




beaslbob said:


> FWIW my local water supply does use chloramines.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> If nothing else I'll get some handle on haw fast the chloramines dissipate.


How do you test for that? Outside the tank or in the tank?


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## dirtydutch4x (Jun 16, 2009)

You know I do understand the point that you are all making to Bob, but I will add that I did indeed, after doing research which all noob's should, decide to try the methods he used and I currently run a 55 and a 20 long setup like this. I know Susan you say success is years not months, and I did not agree at first but reality hit and I also agree, so would my tanks both running for 13 and 15 months be considered a success, and is that considered that the fish lived and no crashes or would you say success is fish multiplying without interference from me, natures course mentality, and plants regularly trimmed back to too overgrowth? I have no movement in the 20 and no deaths in 15 months, and I have never done a water change, just top offs. Is it safe to consider these tanks a success at this point?


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Bob, you may get less accusations of not answering questions if you answer them in the thread where everyone can see and discuss rather than over PMs. 

I'm not sure if Bob's doing this for most of the questions that folks are asking that appear to be unanswered, but he did respond to my question about circulation via PM:

"The tank will have water flow provided by the plants and fish. There will be no scum on the surface and algae will be controlled and the water clear.

But then if I ever get to the actual demonstration, that will be evident.

thanks for asking."

My understanding from this response is that he believes the movement of the fish swimming around is all the circulation the tank needs... But from my own experience with his methods the fish barely do any movement even when there is a filter helping with circulation. They just hover and exist...


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Are you using dechlorinators in the water? Do you have chloramine in your water? Do you ignore those tanks? And I have had walsted tanks myself. So I know that they can work, but they do need some attention outside of topping off. Are you keeping fish that are from areas of this type of enviroment? That is the main key to thier success. Fish that are kept in stagnant water that don't come from those kind of enviroment does have problems with it. Over crowding is also something that should be kept at a minimum.

Bob gives no attention to his tanks, and doesn't worry about chloramines harming the fish. I hope this isn't you!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> How do you test for that? Outside the tank or in the tank?


would testing for chlorine in my tap, at initial setup and say daily for the first week or so be a good test?

How about keeping a closed jar of the initial water in total darkness as kinda of a control? *old dude


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## dirtydutch4x (Jun 16, 2009)

In my 55 I have 7 Oto cats, 3 adult Dwarf Puffers that have spawned twice for me(about 14 tiny DP's), a reproducing colony of H. Formosa, 5 swamp darters with about 8 fry hiding all over that I have counted and snails. I have 2 times in the time they are running cleaned the glass of algae, no vac at all, steady temp of around 74 to 78, and absolutely I use dechlor. I have rearranged the plants a couple times and added some here and there, I also never ignore my tanks, the wife insists too much time is spent with my tanks. I am currently working on a 55 dirt planted that I will be using filters on.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Dutch you do see a difference there, then! I love your native tanks and you can see that you do take care of them. Even without filtration and water changes, they can be kept nice and healthy. Which ultimately is where the problem comes in with bobs tanks, they are built and left alone. Doesn't use dechlors even with chloramine. That is where the problem lies. If he wants to keep his tanks like that, that is his option, but don't push that method on others, especially new people that need to grasp taking care of a tank properly.


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## Subaru4wd (May 6, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> As I explained before
> 
> 1) to get my garage cleaned up
> 
> ...


Awesome... well lets get to it!  I wanna see your failed attempt in action... i say we all take bets as well.

I give it 2 weeks before all the fish are dead.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Subaru4wd said:


> Awesome... well lets get to it!  I wanna see your failed attempt in action... i say we all take bets as well.
> 
> I give it 2 weeks before all the fish are dead.


I give you two weeks and spot ya a year. *old dude

*r2


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Bob, if posting a plan on the Internet has the purpose of cleaning your garage, I'm all for it. Do you have a tank build plan that will clean my oven?

I do not use dechlorinators, by the way, however, I have done research and know my local water company does not use chloramines. if they did, I would treat. I don't consider that an issue.
I have kept and bred fish successfully in Bobish tanks - Rivulus hartii, a swamp caught killie, Rivulus atratus, a swamp caught killie, Heterandria formosa, a swamp caught livebearer.. you see a pattern?
dirtydutch is doing well with swamp darters, H formosa, mollies found in the ditches of Florida... again, appropriately chosen fish for that kind of set-up.

So Bob, do a tank journal. Report back once a month on whatever you are testing. Throw in a few pictures. 
We'll look at it.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

luananeko said:


> Bob, you may get less accusations of not answering questions if you answer them in the thread where everyone can see and discuss rather than over PMs.
> 
> I'm not sure if Bob's doing this for most of the questions that folks are asking that appear to be unanswered, but he did respond to my question about circulation via PM:
> 
> ...


That has got to be the craziest crap I've ever heard of. WOW, just unimaginable, that this guy is advising people of tank set up, but the sad part is, that they actually listen to him.......


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Bob, do you consider your tanks something you enjoy looking at, and if so do you think they look the best that they can?

I would like to see videos of the fish in the beginning followed by videos of them as time goes on. For this to prove that your tanks are healthy you need to show us a constant progression of the tank, and exaclty how everything looks. 

I also wonder, do your methods change based on water? I see you shoving the method at any one who will listen but do you ever ask about if they have soft water/hard water? low pH or high pH? what effects does this have on the tank? 

What about types of fish? can you provide us with a list of fish your tanks are compatible with? Surely you dont feel that your methods will work and be successful for every fish available? 

So tell us more about what YOU have used in the past, as far as your water, plants and fish. What worked and what didnt?

This info ALL makes it easier to justify showing a newbie the method. If you can say that for example "your water is too soft, my method will not work" or "that particular fish will not live in a beaslebob tank" or whatever, it would be much easier to accept.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What he mentions is not flow, but more correctly movement. However, plants will do nothing for movement. No different than a tree does not move a bit without wind. And if growth is considered, it will not be at any great speed to matter.

Bob's definition of things is not like most people's. Flow, when it really is movement, thrive, when it really is just existing....he has definitions that webster's don't agree with.

This journal, if that is what it will be called, will be a farse and will forever be suspect as whether or not it is truth. Bob would NEVER come on here and say his tank crashed and killed his fish...NEVER. This would take everything he has EVER said and wash it all down the toilet - everything. He can document all he wants but unless there is second hand observation, it'll all be bullsh*t to me. So really not proving ANYTHING, but other than he can post info about a tank to a truth that only he knows.

Bob will answer in PMs to keep the info he sends as being under scrutiny. If most of it wasn't controversial answers, ie mostly unbelieved by most people, he could put everything in public.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Summer said:


> Bob, do you consider your tanks something you enjoy looking at, and if so do you think they look the best that they can?


I presume you can always tell me how to make it look better*old dude


> I would like to see videos of the fish in the beginning followed by videos of them as time goes on. For this to prove that your tanks are healthy you need to show us a constant progression of the tank, and exaclty how everything looks.


I do the best i can


> I also wonder, do your methods change based on water?


no


> I see you shoving the method at any one who will listen but do you ever ask about if they have soft water/hard water? low pH or high pH? what effects does this have on the tank?


after doing these tanks since the late '70's in 7 cities in the US with water supplies from rivers, aquifiers, reserviors perhaps the quality of the input water is not relevant. What seems to be relevant is the conditions of the tank itself. so to me the tank itself determines the water not the input water determining the tank.


> What about types of fish? can you provide us with a list of fish your tanks are compatible with? Surely you dont feel that your methods will work and be successful for every fish available?


yep. with the exception of using some kind of refugium in those systems where the fish attack the plants.


> So tell us more about what YOU have used in the past, as far as your water, plants and fish. What worked and what didnt?


any potable water, true aquatic plant, had problems with neon tetras when peat moss was not in the substrate


> This info ALL makes it easier to justify showing a newbie the method. If you can say that for example "your water is too soft, my method will not work" or "that particular fish will not live in a beaslebob tank" or whatever, it would be much easier to accept.


Perhaps it is equally hard to accept that no water changes with tap water increases hardness of soft water and peat moss limits the hardness build up. Or that any fish can live in a tank where the fish wastes are being constantly recycled into oxygen and fish food. *old dude


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

how's that for not hiding in a pm.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

All right Bob, try this:
Steatocranus tinanti from the Congo rapids in your build. After all, a fish from the Congo rapids won't have evolved any special needs we should respect, what with a river flowing at 2,600,000 cubic feet per second;
South American Geophagus argyrostictus - peaceful in a high current with several powerheads, a hellion in normal flow tanks. I bet they're be really happy in non-moving water.
African Procatopus lampeyes - beauties that lives in rushing surface waters. No evolution for current there;
Rainbows - a fish that will no doubt grow to full size in a swamp;
Congo tetras, Satanoperca. Retroculus...
There are these things in nature called rivers, streams and lake shoreline with waves. They are really cool, and there are creatures that live in them! They all have adaptations to water movement, often wired into the breeding and social behavior of the species. Tiger barbs are aggressive in slow water and happy and peaceful in a flowing tank. You think maybe that's more natural for them? Swordtails fought and cannibalized in the slow water of my childhood tanks, but in my larger tanks with 10 times the tank size flow rates, they don't even chase their young. 

I accept your tanks may work, sort of. But I object to your one size fits all approach. It's not sensible. I have said that in several threads, and you've never responded. You just let it flow by, like the current in the habitats of 90% of our beloved aquarium fish...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

His tanks work, there is no question in that.  The issue I think is the most important is how the fish react or live. Remaining alive for a few years doesn't mean anything.

If he has seen a rise in ph as he has said in every city he has been in, then it shows to me all the more reason to NOT use these methods. If ph rises and rises because there is no fresh water being added and every thing is being depleted from the water, including all the carbonates (not CO2), I see it as a concern for many types of fish.

You, yourself Bob have been quoted as saying that these methods are probably only good for Platies and Guppies. Not here, but in other places. If you want to prove your system because you feel diminished here, then do it with other types of fish you have not tried before...because all I have ever heard you mention is 3 species.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> His tanks work, there is no question in that. The issue I think is the most important is how the fish react or live. Remaining alive for a few years doesn't mean anything.
> 
> If he has seen a rise in ph as he has said in every city he has been in, then it shows to me all the more reason to NOT use these methods. If ph rises and rises because there is no fresh water being added and every thing is being depleted from the water, including all the carbonates (not CO2), I see it as a concern for many types of fish.
> 
> You, yourself Bob have been quoted as saying that these methods are probably only good for Platies and Guppies. Not here, but in other places. If you want to prove your system because you feel diminished here, then do it with other types of fish you have not tried before...because all I have ever heard you mention is 3 species.


tetras
mollys
guppies
platies
upsidedown catfish
otts
anglefish
goldies
bettas


kh with peat moss 4 degrees with sand over 20
gh with peat moss 9 degrees with sand over 40

ph 8.4-8.8 fw and salt.

now you have heard me mention other fish. LOL


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, so like I was saying....try some fish you haven't tried. Not sure what the peat comments were for. You would never have had those problems with sand (which only the wrong sand keeps going up like that - never used it myself) with water changes. 

Do you know why Walstad says NOT to use peat in the substrate?


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I appreciate your responses. I have more questions then. 

What diseases have you encountered, and is treatment in your method? If so, what treatments? Do the conditions presented within the tank aggrevate or promote any of these ilnesses? 

Do the fish live their FULL life span? Not just for a few years, but their projected life span? Do they reach their full growing potential? Are their coloration and finnage the way they are meant to look?

What is the mortality rate in your tanks? 

Do the tanks smell? 

Have you ever done your build on a large tank? Outcome? Different than the small tanks?

No one is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. Especially when creating something out of the ordinary. I'm interested in hearing what mistakes you *know* you have made in the past and how you corrected them. 

and yes, I'm going to keep on grilling you with questions until we know every detail beyond "dont do anything"


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

As a retread newbie I find it kinda funny all the ripping at Bob, when every picture I can find about catching wild South American / Amazon aquarium fish the water looks like pea soup, but we all make our tanks perfectly clean for OUR enjoyment and viewing then act wholier then thou. Just an observation.


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## dirtydutch4x (Jun 16, 2009)

AGREE*thumbsup thanx


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Its not about the pea soup, I have a couple of tanks with green water and keep it that way. But all those fish found in pea soup that your talking about isn't in stagnant water. 

But I agree this is getting out of hand. Bob chooses his own methods, as do everyone else, but for a new person just starting out I wouldn't suggest it. Even walsted says not for newcomers. These kind of tanks are more for certain kinds of fish not nearly all fish. Its something that should be done with caution and experience.

Dutch keeps several natives and keeps them in near like conditons of the natural habitat. I've done walsted tanks and had success with them for a certain lenght of time, then it started crashing after 2 years.

I keep a lot of plecos in blackwater, tannin stained, I wouldn't put a pleco in that type of tank. Also many other species that newcomers want to start out with. They need to learn first at keeping a tank with filter and water changes before jumping into something like this.

Would you suggest this method for discus? I wouldn't. 

The main problem is bob pushing his method on every new person that comes along, not saying it might not work for the fish your wanting to keep, just pushing his method. He touts that dechorinators are bad for the fish even though chloramines are more toxic to fish than any dechlor out there. And chloramines do not dissapate.

People have every right to ask for photos and videos to show proof that untreated tanks has the same potential for a fish to thrive not just survive.
But a few people on here are turning it into a pissing contest at how far they can piss than the other.

As I said before discussion is fine, but the argueing and contests will get these threads locked and won't be allowed to start up again. If bob wants to do it as a journal for himself he can do it that way, but won't be allowed to post it as suggesting this method for others to use. Or he can go do a blog on it in a blogging site.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Amazon rivers are like rivers here, they move. If you want to understand what tropical rivers love like, it's easy to find natural waters outside and observe.

But I think this is out of hand. Maybe Bob gives narrow advice that will mess up a few newcomers, and I can see forum members not liking the idea that someone could come here in good faith, and get willfiully bad advice. But any smart person who comes here has the good sense to read more than one opinion, and if they jump on Bob's plan because it looks easy, I'll send my cousin down to sell them real estate.

Nothing anyone here writes does a fraction of the harm a store does by stocking balloon mollies, or dye injected glass fish, or GMO glo-fish. Stores selling dempsies or oscars for 20 gallon tanks drive more hobbyists out of the hobby in a week then I would in year of telling people to pee in their tanks and sprinkle the surface with cinnamon. 

I suspect Bob's a contrarian looking to stir the pot (but not the water). So stir away Bob. if you say something I think is wrong, I'll try to engage you in debate. You'll never answer my points, but others who read the forum will think about what we both said, and make their own decisions.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

This is getting out of hand and in the end it is going to accomplish nothing..he is still going to do things his way and he is still going to promote it to others including new comers to the hobby..just my opinion folks..take it for what it is

Rick


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Sorry if I came off looking like I agree, you can keep 1000 chickens in a 10'x 10' shack, they will live, grow, reproduce: but are they pets? I do not agree with his whole concept as is but he does strongly push for plants and I am starting to think, that besides some African Cichlids, it may be as important as a filter to have plants for all fish. Much more reading needed to be done by myself before I would ever say this as advice for others though. Thanks Bob for making me think!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes you can do that, but its also your responsability to take care of those chickens to make sure they are healthy and thrive. You are always giving them fresh food or water.
And no a 1000 chickens won't live and reproduce in that small of an area for a long time. They start getting sick and dieing.

When you take fish out of the enviroment and put them in a glass box it is your responsability to keep them in the best conditions to thrive. You get them for your enjoyment to watch and to see all the changes that the tank goes through. Plants do help with a lot of filtration, but those plants need to be maintained to keep them healthy and in working order.

If you look into stagnant ponds with no water movement, What kind of plants are you looking at? Most I have ever seen are scraggly unhealthy specimans and a lot of algae.

A lot of people look at fish as just a throw away creature, but for most FISH KEEPERS will look at them as something to enjoy and take care of and to learn from the many aspects of keeping them. And if we put them in a glass box they are considered pets as they aren't being kept for food.


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## frogwings (Aug 26, 2011)

More pondering....

This would be my advice to noobies FWIW:

1) Research, research and more research.

2) Ask lots of questions both on this forum and anywhere else you think you can get RELIABLE information.

3) Evaluate said information and weed out what sounds weird or contrary to knowledgable, popular opinion. Build on wisdom.

4) If you are serious about learning and succeeding in your endeavors, talk to the experts: those who have already done the experiments. It is a waste of time to reinvent the wheel.

5) Use common sense.

6) More research. 

We are attempting to create a biosphere in a tiny box that it has taken nature eons to create and even in nature there are flaws. Why compound them. This forum contains a tremendous amount of information given by experienced folks. Take advantage of that but be sure to use _common sense_ when putting what you have learned into practice. 

I love my "wetpets" and I enjoy watching and caring for them immensely. I can only hope they enjoy where I have put them!

By the way, I am still a noobie and will consider myself one as long as I can learn. *old dudeette


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

dalfed said:


> As a retread newbie I find it kinda funny all the ripping at Bob, when every picture I can find about catching wild South American / Amazon aquarium fish the water looks like pea soup, but we all make our tanks perfectly clean for OUR enjoyment and viewing then act wholier then thou. Just an observation.


Not all of us.I keep black water fish and add black water extract via Indian Almond leaves or peat extract.I think the main thing is to recreate the environment they naturally live in.

Many beginners do not understand that some waters are fast moving,white water environments to slow moving black water environments.Not all fish live in peat swamps.NOt all fish live in green water rich environments.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

This thread is being locked down. Bob if you want you can start a journal but do it in the right way, No questions asked of others about what your doing.


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