# Cloudy Water after every 20% WC



## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Hello, I have had Freshwater Aquariums for about a year now, I know about the cycle, etc. This tank ( 30gallon) has been established and cycled for about 9 months with 0 Ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 20-30 Nitrates. For the past few weeks, every time I do a WC after a few hours the water gets cloudyish and there is this white powdery stuff on the inside of the glass. I have noticed that the ammonia also spikes to about 3ppm when this happens, but goes back down in a few days.
I know this is probably a mini cycle, but if I am only doing 20% WC once a week to maintain it, why is it doing this? I add Dechlorinater/chloramine into a bucket with water every time, let it sit for a few min before pouring it in. I was thinking maybe my city water has higher ammonia in it than usual, however this only happens in 1 of my 3 established tanks, same amount of WC for each. 

Please no rude or antagonizing responses. I am not new to this, but this is something recent and a mystery to me. (I have been met with rudeness from other forums for simple questions >_<) I do as much research as I can, but I need someones advice who maybe has experience with this phenomenon. 

Thanks! =)

Edit: Also, I only feed what the fish will eat every other day, I do my best to make sure there is no rotting food.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Could you be stirring something up when adding water? If it was in your tap water I would think it would happen in the other tanks. Does the tank have a lid, incase dust might be getting into it.


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Well now its happening in my other 30g as well..just took longer. /sigh. I am -only- doing about 20% WC once a week.. could it be the dechlorinater from walmart? or something in my water. If Im causing a mini cycle -everytime- I do a WC what am I suppose to do? @[email protected] I mean, its not opaque, its just this whitish cloudiness. Which I guess is a bacteria bloom.. but why would 20% WC cause that? ><

edit: First Tank which got Cloudy first is at (its starting to go away)
Ammonia - .3 - .4 ppm
Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm

Second tank - (a bit cloudier and took longer to get cloudy)
Ammonia - .5 ppm
Nitrate - <20ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm

These tests are from about 12 hours after the 20% WC.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Dechlor will not cause a rise in ammonia.

What is the ammonia reading on your tap? Only time I've ever had cloudiness after a water change was when my tap had 2ppm ammonia in it. Are your tanks pretty heavily stocked?


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## dette21 (Jun 3, 2012)

I so hear you with other forums being rude I quit going on one because the people were awful! and that's just sad I mean the whole point is to get help and everyone starts out a beginner, everyone has made mistakes and wrong choices its part of the hobby. The point is to figure what's wrong and get some help from fellow hobbist! I love this forum I have never seen a rude post! And everyone is nice and helpful ! (Thanks guys)


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

One of a few things:
1. Is it something that you haven't noticed before or something that is different?
2. Is it something that is happening because of a change in method or a change in additive?
3. Is the ammonia spike something you may have missed before and you are relating it to the conditions experienced? (Self-fulfilling prophecy)

You mention pouring the water into the tank - I reverse siphon mine back into the tank and one day, the hose pointed at a clump of grass and sh1t went everywhere! Now I vac that grass more . A gentle flow might not stir up as much detritus.

I'd certainly try and get hold of a small bottle of Seachem Prime conditioner and see if the effect is any different.

My feeling is that it is probably the conditioner though. You may have chloramines in the water and a weaker dechlor agent may not have cleared it completely resulting in a mini cycle. 

Besides that - I can only think that there's more in your sponge filter that's getting released into the tank - a poly pad may help.
cb


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## dvanbramer88 (Jul 23, 2011)

Does the 20% water change drop the water level below the intake of the filter? I know when i do larger water changes and i have to shut off the filter for a few moments so it doesnt run dry, when i restart it, a ton of crap flushes into the tank. Also, if your filter is off for too long, you could be causing the mini-cycle.


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Hello G...

A 20 percent water change will do very little for your tank. Water changes need to be half the tank volume every 7 days preferably and no longer than 10 days between these large water changes. That's the best way to ensure stable water properties and crystal clear water.

Tanks that are heavily planted are clearer. The plants act as natural water filters and can help clear the water.

Another thing that helps, is filter media. The best stuff on the market is a brand of polyfiber. The stuff is thin and very dense. It can clear up the small particles that cloud a tank in just a few hours.

One other thing, get the tank planted and then you won't need to vacuum the gravel. Vacuuming is one of the worst things for disturbing debris around the tank and clouding the water.

Just a few thoughts.

B


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

B.
It's pretty commonly accepted that pwc are typically 10-25% weekly. 
50% PWC are for people with high light and heavy fertilization - to stop them building up over 50% fert concentration in the tank and negating the laborious/costly individual nutrient measurement or where there are very heavy bio-loads.
A 50% PWC n this case, I believe will aggravate the problem if it's caused by chloramines in the water - plus larger changes means bigger pH and temperature swings.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

clep.berry said:


> B.
> It's pretty commonly accepted that pwc are typically 10-25% weekly.
> 50% PWC are for people with high light and heavy fertilization - to stop them building up over 50% fert concentration in the tank and negating the laborious/costly individual nutrient measurement or where there are very heavy bio-loads.
> A 50% PWC n this case, I believe will aggravate the problem if it's caused by chloramines in the water - plus larger changes means bigger pH and temperature swings.


I don't agree with that at all. 10% change is basically a topoff and useless to do what a water change is designed to do. Not that I pay attention to it much, I have never read a recommendation of less than 25%. If it is out there, it just means that that person's opinion shouldn't be trusted.

The 25% is based off of a moderately stocked tank. Stock with more and the % obviously has to increase. It can easily be 50% even without the reasons you mention for hi-tech tanks.

Also, you should get NO PH shifts with water changes. If this occurs then either CO2 is used in the tank or there are issues going on that need to be resolved.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Gee you do a water change, the tank clouds up, white powderey stuff all over, ammonia spikes up to 3ppm. Sounds like you need to change something.

But then what do I know? I don't have those problems. 

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

bob,

Neither do most of us. Even the best of us have issues from time to time. That's why they come here. 

You have worse problems...an unstable ph.


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## dvanbramer88 (Jul 23, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> Gee you do a water change, the tank clouds up, white powderey stuff all over, ammonia spikes up to 3ppm. Sounds like you need to change something.
> 
> But then what do I know? I don't have those problems.
> 
> my .02


Do you sell a product or a kit or something? Because you plug for your "methods" harder than advertisers market products....


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> I don't agree with that at all. 10% change is basically a topoff and useless to do what a water change is designed to do. Not that I pay attention to it much, I have never read a recommendation of less than 25%. If it is out there, it just means that that person's opinion shouldn't be trusted.
> 
> The 25% is based off of a moderately stocked tank. Stock with more and the % obviously has to increase. It can easily be 50% even without the reasons you mention for hi-tech tanks.
> 
> Also, you should get NO PH shifts with water changes. If this occurs then either CO2 is used in the tank or there are issues going on that need to be resolved.


Gina Sanford Tropical Tankmaster, book says 10-20% once a week. She doesn't mention if she excludes decorations in that volume.

CO2, driftwood, dissolved CO2 in tapwater, other funnies in tapwater, differences in salinity (if treating with salt), seasonal shifts due to rainfall all contribute to pH shifts.

I'm sorry. Advocating bigger water changes is one thing. Saying that anyone who doesn't shouldn't be trusted is something completely different. If you also advocate drip acclimatisation, then... 

The best resource I have seen for calculating PWC is aqadvisor.com. it suggests that I need 36% pwc once a week. I do 20% twice a week which is one bucket each time and... comes to 36% exactly - by accident more than design. I reckon I'm doing too much though as my Nitrates are at 5ppm.

cb


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

> Gina Sanford Tropical Tankmaster, book says 10-20% once a week. She doesn't mention if she excludes decorations in that volume


That doesn't mean she is right either, and doesn't mean jrman is wrong. I do 75 to 90% water changes on my tanks with no ill effects and I don't dose ferts or have co2 in most of them. I have not had a change in ph. I agree with ben though that less than 25% is nothing more than topping off.



> CO2, driftwood, dissolved CO2 in tapwater, other funnies in tapwater, differences in salinity (if treating with salt), seasonal shifts due to rainfall all contribute to pH shifts


.

That isn't enough of a fluctuation to cause that much of a problem, and any good dechlorinator will remove most toxins in the tap water. Salt doesn't evaporate so if you just removing less than 25% and adding more salt, your just increasing the salinity.

Aquaadvisor is nothing but a place to have a starting place. Its not always accurate and more so not that good of an indicator. I was around the forum that the guy first starting setting most of it up and what he has for info is from other users so basically just hearsay.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Susan... jrman Said:

"I have never read a recommendation of less than 25%. If it is out there, it just means that that person's opinion shouldn't be trusted."

Google returns 627,000 results for 10-20% PWC aquarium and 81,400 for 50% PWC aquarium. 

1. "Never read": that is balldust.
2. "Shouldn't be trusted": Is a little strong when there's no reference to tried and tested methods or anything else for that matter.

Look, I don't want an apology here - who gives a flying fish... I'm not a mod and never want to be one but BS is just that - BS unless it's substantiated. Saying that 10-25% is wrong for reasons 1 and 2 above reeks of BS - and would likely turn me away from the advice. Putting some reasons out there however makes me and a lot of intelligent people take note and evaluate information.

Maybe 50% is a fantastic recommendation and we should all be doing it - BUT THAT IS BESIDE THE POINT. 

Aquadvisor is a great place to start. Besides nitrate measurement and tracking from there, there's not that much that can be improved for my circumstances.

Getting back to the point. If chloramines are what is causing the BB bloom what will a 50% PWC with the same dechlor agent do?

cb


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Just read this article and saw that there is a section that could be relevant:
Wise up on wipe outs | Features | Practical Fishkeeping
Going by a hagen bottle that I have lying around, the recommended dosage is 2x for chloramine.
For those too lazy to read the whole thing, here's a snippet:



> Nowadays, almost all proprietary dechlorinators tackle both chlorine and chloramine.
> 
> Be careful if trying to use a product that only deals with chlorine, as against chloramine it will be counterproductive, releasing toxic ammonia into the water. That’s assuming it even touches the chloramine. If it doesn’t you have a problem.
> 
> ...


cb


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

First off, I wasn't advocating bigger water changes necessarily. Evap rate on tanks vary, but I loose nearly 10% in one week's time. So anyone who says to only do 10% in a water change is already suspect in their advice, IMO. If you want to read that book, by all means read it. For me, it would be enough to put it down and not trust the writer.....that is MY OPINION. You will find many articles out there that people take as experts in the hobby and some are only an expert at giving advice. If that book is gospel to you, you may have some issues if the fundamental part of tank keeping is already recommending suspect practices. Even beasl will tell you that 10%doesn't do anything to a tank. You are much better off going to a forum and ask what breeders and/or others "actually" living this stuff everyday do to be successful. 

If you don't know how Google works, test it. Go read the first 100 hits...I guarantee you they are way off subject by then. Maybe even the first 20. Really? You compared Google hits? That is a new one on me.

Like I said about ph, unless you are injecting CO2 there should not be ph fluctuations. If you don't know how much driftwood actually changes the water ph, or any of the other possibles, don't mention them. They will cause very slight ph changes. So if driftwood is dropping ph .5, even a 50% water change will change the outcome of the ph after the water by about .2...less if the water change % is less. That is almost normal fluctuation in a given day without dw. Maybe you got that info from the book also?

Nothing I said was BS and it was my opinion....and nothing to do with being a mod. Maybe you should go from forum to forum and ask what people recommend. I'll bet that my number is closer to what people actually do than your book. Just a guess

Sorry if you feel like you need an apology just because my opinion differs from yours. Not really how it works with forums.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

lol, lets not get 'rude or antagonizing'. Seriously though there are so many different ways to calculate water changes and lots of factors involved. I'm not saying there is no bad advice out there but it's not worth getting pedantic over numbers. It's not possible to come up with a magic number that fits for everyone, better to take it case by case.

This problem is interesting. My first suggestion for most water quality issues would be to up water changes but seeing as water changes seem to be connected to to what is causing the problem it might be better to work out what is going on before considering bigger changes.

I think most of it has been covered but 4 thoughts came to my mind:

1) Test the tap water. Does it have ammonia?

2) Could gunk from the bottom of your tank (or inside the filter) be getting stirred up?

3) Your dechlorinator from Walmart should be fine... but it is worth considering seeing as it is being added to the tank along with water, just before you have the problem. Double check it treats for chloramine, as clep.berry said I have heard that dechlorinator+chloramine can release ammonia. Maybe test the water from your tap before and after you treat it or just buy a different brand of dechlorinator and see if it solves the problem.

4) You say you 'only feed what the fish will eat every other day, and do your best to make sure there is no rotting food'. This seems good but let me just check how much you are actually feeding. Are you giving as much as the fish will eat? Some fish, in fact most fish, are greedy and will pack in serous amounts of food. If you are feeding them until they won't eat more, that is too much. If you are having to net out uneaten food you are probably feeding too much.

A bit more background about your tanks: What are they stocked with? Do you have live plants? What filter do you have? (sorry if you've already said this stuff and I missed it)


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Ok sorry for long reply, been dealing with job search and interviews.

Water level does not drop below filter intake
City water has about .2-.3 ammonia in it (just tested it)
My tanks are moderately planted
My filters are Aqua Clear for 50-70g and 30-50g
My tanks are maybe on the heavier stock side, but I wouldn't say too bad or overstocked. 

This is something new that has started happening within the past month
Ammonia has always been fine, I get it checked at the LFS mostly, but I have my own testing strips.
I have not changed method, the only thing changed is I have been using the Jungle Start Right conditioner instead of the API water conditioner because I am currently limited to using a wal-mart credit card so I cannot afford the API at the LFS. 

I always lightly vacuum the gravel (fish poop gathers like crazy in the corner for some reason). Also, filter is never off, and I clean the filter sponge about once every 2-3 weeks. 

Edit: I don't feed them until they stop, believe me they could keep eating @[email protected] Greedy little bastards lol. 
Yes the conditioner is a decloramine/dechlorinator. Yes I have live plants. 
30g First Tank has: 8 barbs (Odessa, tiger, green, marbe), 1 rainbow shark, and 1 peacock eel and a sand loach. 
30g Second Tank: 2 Killifish, 2 Climbing perch (Only about an inch each), a very small Mottled eel, a small red tailed shark, and 6 small coryfish (pandas and tiny spotted ones), and a 3 inch Sleeper Goby (avatar pic =D)

I hope that answered all the questions people were asking Lol.

From what I see with testing the city water I think thats what it may be, the added ammonia is causing a mini cycle.

Bob: People like you are why I avoid forums. Read what I said, this is a NEW problem, and NOTHING has changed to cause it except perhaps my conditioner.

"Gee you do a water change, the tank clouds up, white powderey stuff all over, ammonia spikes up to 3ppm. Sounds like you need to change something.

But then what do I know? I don't have those problems. "

That ^ is a very elitist attitude. Everyone has problems once in a while, such as I am having here. I came here for help, not to have elitist treat me like I am obviously doing something wrong if ANY problems show up. Forums are for help and advice/discussions, not for condescending remarks. Those don't help anyone.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Goby, you must excuse Bob. He feels fish have to survive in their own excrement and performs NO water changes. If you smelt his tanks, you certainly wouldn't call him elitist.
Seeing that you can test for ammonia, why don't you add the dechlor to the tap water and test that for ammonia? If there is an ammonia increase in the bucket (and it should be 25ppm if I'm not mistaken), then chloramines are your problem.
cb


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

After doing as you suggested with a water test and my conditioner, the ammonia went up to .5 -.7

Edit: Now I feel like I am just pouring ammonia into the tanks every time I do a change..poor fish >_< walmart conditioner = bad?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Its not the best in the world but will do in a pinch. Prime locks ammonia so it won't be harmful. When you can get a bottle of that. Cost a little more but in the long run its cheaper as you don't have to use as much.

Oh and please forgive Bob, he's our resident swamp tank keeper.


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone  so would it be safe to say that my conditioner is causing a mini cycle every time I do a WC? It would make sense that once I started having to get the walmart stuff is probably around when it started.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm a tad confused....you tested water straight from your tap and tested positive for ammonia? I mean tested straight from the faucet, no dechlor, no nothing....

I have never heard of a conditioner increasing the ammonia content, so not so sure the conditioner may be doing anything to make it worse.

The problem is in your tap. If it has ammonia, then you know where it comes from and "should" only be seen directly after your water change and should be gone in less than 36hrs. If the beneficial bacteria are processing the ammonia in this manner, then I would keep an eye on things but wouldn't worry too much about it. Ammonia is not good by any stretch, but your fish should be able to sustain low levels for short periods of time.

Also, strips wouldn't be the very best for testing low levels of ammonia. They can get a little moisture on them and they will give you bad readings and they go bad very easily. I know this may be all you have, but also know that the readings you're getting can be suspect.


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Well if it helps, I just bought these strips about 2 nights ago. But yes, the ammonia level was higher AFTER I added the conditioner. Straight tap water was .3-.5, after i added conditioner it was .5-.7ish. Maybe it was all the same, but theres def ammonia in the water. >_<


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Got it. I would do your water changes as normal, not feed for that day and the next, test the water closely to make sure ammonia is either gone or close to and continuing to go down.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

I reckon the key variable you have to play with here is time.
Removing the water from the tank is not problematic but returning the ammonia laden water is where the trouble is starting.
A thought would be to "drip" the ammonia (clean water) back into the tank at a steady rate over a few hours or so.
The BB should be able to break it down in smaller doses.
If that sounds like too much trouble, a jug at a time might work better for you.
Alternatively, you could try some mature media plus an airstone in your bucket.
cb


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## Grumpy_Goby (Jun 11, 2012)

Thank you everyone, its nice to have finally got some advice and help that has gotten to the root of this issue. I will not feed the days I do WC, and add some BB to the bucket before adding. Thanks again! =D


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Please don't take Bob's comment personally, it wasn't even directed at you, he was making a point because he doesn't believe in doing water changes and there is a bit of a feud going on between him and other members over it. 

Traditionally a positive reading for ammonia in drinking water was a sign that it was being contaminated by something like sewage but these days lots of places treat with chloramine. Chloramine is basically ammonia and chlorine atoms bound together, so when it breaks down you are left with ammonia in your tap water which seems to be what is happening in your case. Then when you add the dechlorinator it releases a bunch more ammonia. As others have said it's not ideal but as long as the levels are low and don't last too long it probably not too bad. 

Sorry if you said already but do you have live plants? Live plants also consume ammonia so might be worth considering.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I think the whole discussion process is arriving at a possible solution. The only other problem I could see is a change at your water treatment plant. If the methods you're trying don't work, they may be doing something different. 

I don't get cloudiness, but once a year for 3-4 days our pipes get flushed, and that water is gray. Likewise, we had a lot of new building around here for 2 years, and two water mains broke though that period (a fine contractor....). Our water was cleared for consumption, but it was cloudy for weeks through that period. 
It's likely you're in the right direction, but this might be 'exploration B" if the problem persists.


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## j0fish (Jan 25, 2012)

Sort of older thread...but I'll put in my 2 cents:

I troubleshoot (computers and anything else), by trying to prove what it's not.

You could take two five-gallon buckets and do an experiment:
* Fill both with water as if you were using them for a PWC.
* Test both for Ammonia, Nitrates, etc. (I would think they should be identical). Write down the results.
* Put dechlorinator in one bucket but leave the other alone.
* Wait 10 minutes or so and test them again. Write down the results.
* Wait 48 hours, or until theoretically the other bucket should be naturally dechlorinated.
* Test both again, look at the results.

Maybe something will be obvious?


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