# 180 gallon FW CA/SA cichlid build



## zwanged

Hi,

I'm starting a new thread to pick up where a previous thread left off. For some background, check out this link:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f45/new-190-planted-fw-tank-build-42264.html

So I'm working on designing the wet-dry sump for my upcoming 180 gallon tank which will be situated in my basement. I plan to plumb the PVC through my kitchen floor.

The total head height from where I will situate the return pump in my basement to the top of the tank will be approximately 10 feet. This means I will need a pretty darn powerful pump to get sufficient flow. I was planning to do the Mag 24 pump. I think I should be able to do a straight shot up from this pump to the center of the tank in the kitchen at which point it will bifurcate to each overflow.

Below is a diagram for the wet/dry design I was thinking of:



I definitely appreciate any refinements you guys could recommend! I'm not thrilled by the concept of a filter sock / filter floss. I don't want something that will EVER clog up and cause a flood.

Thanks!
-Zeke


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## coralbandit

I totally dig drip trays with mechanicals.You can even drill a 1" hole and insert a 1" tall piece of pvc to allow overflow if media gets clogged.I don't anymore or think ever will have any "over" baffles in my sumps as they take away from usable water.Usable water to me is evaporation,or allowance to change water without turning filter off.A "under " baffle with sponge and possibly eggcrate to keep plants or whatever from reaching pump is all I would do.
I built many filters with over and under baffles and understand how the gases exchange,but with overflows (built in to your aquarium)and surface returns they really aren't necessary IMO.
Check out the latest ;
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f37/simple-diy-sump-filter-42406.html
Because of how the turtle tank is designed there is one over baffle,but that only inhibits 10 gallons out of a possible 30 if it were full(it's still proportional at any level,and actually only like 6 gallons as the whole sump level has to go below the overflow of turtle tank before being "restrained).
Next Trying to us all my water I would seat pump on bottom of filter and I even have a 90 on my pump to avoid cavitation i the level were to get low enough.


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## zwanged

i'm now thinking i might just want to use some sterilite shelving for the shelf section and just ditch all the baffles. Thoughts?


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## coralbandit

They make turtle tanks up to 30 gallons.The bucket still fit (larger rectangular cat litter bucket{I know how bunk it seems,but water doesn't know the difference if it passes through mechanicals properly}).The over flows create loss of usable water as I said and in case you still choose to use them you need to fill both sides of the over evenly on intiall start up or risk blowing it(the over baffle)out from the pressure of the incomming water.Many pre made sumps with high overflows actually list this in their directions.I have made "PVC tables" that were just hollow frames to hold egg crate and place mechanicals on(actually how my 29 reef filter is) and they work fine but have no sides so water can pass over mechanical and go down the sides when it is easier(the mechanicals are definately not "clogged" when this happens).I'm actually not real big on all the bio material either.I incorporate a sponge or two somewhere in main flow and always treat them like bio(only rinse in tank water) and have no other bio material in any filters(all bios become nitrAte factories if not rinsed occasionaly,this is easily and efficiently accomplished with the sponge).
all in all baffles ar not really needed just need to flow water correctly to accomplish goals for equipment in sump.
My last 18' wide sump had the under over your plan has in the beginning(after mechanicals) and really turned out to be a pain to change floss or sponges in without disturbing(and releasing a ton of crap)to the next section.Hence I incorporate a power head pump with hose returnig to mechanicals to "recycle" dirty water through mechanicals till cleaned up(to do this I did have to shut off main pump so no dirty water got pumped back to tank).But I still today have "back pump" in all my sumps(right in the flow of the water) to catch crap turned loose and send it back to mechanicals.


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## coralbandit

Here's what I got for you if you like;



It is 3 drawers aprox. 16x12 with the egg crate hung by zip ties to hold bio in a dry position.It measures 18" tall and 14"wide and fits your basic 18" wide tank.(Your 75)
2 holes in the top for receiving and 2 smaller for the back pump I described and I honestly don't remember ? I've built nitrate reactors(wouldn't have returned to mechanical section) and several different chemical "Towers"
Everything that has contact with water if tank safe (I used this for 1 1/2 years on top of a 50 breeder for my 180) and has aluminum 90s for re enforcement on outside of body(why I can't us it with salt due to creep).Plenty of room for mechanicals to clean water before your bio,and I do have a pretty good amount of bio balls also.
What you think?
As you can see it won't fit on top of any tank in a stand,and I'm pleased with the set up I run for my 180 in the basement so....


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## zwanged

I'm trying to figure out if even the mag24 pump is going to be sufficient in my particular situation. I think I'm looking at more like 11 feet of head height to overcome (from my basement to the top of the tank on the first floor), plus any bends that have to happen --> probably at least two -- ..so conservatively -- with 2 600GPH overflows -- I will probably want approx 1200GPH at 13' of head height (if you count each 90 degree bend as 1 foot of head height). The ReeFlo pump does 1637GPH at 12' of head height so that puts me in the right ballpark, right?

With these flow rate requirements, do I pretty much have to go with non-submersible, external pumps at this point? If so, I will probably have to drill the side of my 75gal sump tank for this to work, correct?

I was thinking about the ReeFlo Gold SuperDart Snapper pump. Rated for 4300GPH at 0' of lift and 1637GPH at 12' of lift. That would give me some cushion for pipe bends etc.

Any other recommendations as far as pumps? It seems like I would have to drill the right side of my 75 and put in a bulkhead to use it, right? The ReeFlo pump, at 170 watts, seems more efficient than the mag24 pump though, which is rated at 265 watts. I'm willing to pay a bit more up front to get more flow...even if it means more initial work -- for a more energy-efficient pump which should cost less in the long run -- IF it holds up.

Thoughts?

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Coralbandit: Looks good to me...I can probably make good use of it in this sump.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Found a good pump that will work better than a mag 24 for my setup. 

The ReefFlo Super Dart - Snapper Gold seems perfect. About 11' of lift + a few elbows.

I should get about 1637GPH at 12' of lift...PLUS it is more efficient than the mag24...170 watt vs 265 watt.

According to the manual throttling its output will also drop the power usage.

Thoughts? Although more expensive ($360) than the $170 mag24 -- it will pay for itself pretty quickly in reduced operating costs. Also the mag24 is a little marginal given the amount of head height I'm facing.

Here's a link to the pump specs:
ReeFlo Pumps

Drawback is the pump is external -- not submersible -- so I'll have to get the 75 gallon drilled + add a bulkhead so I can actually use the pump!

Now...I just need to finalize the specs of the main tank + stand....fun! Think I will build the stand myself or at least design it and have the handyman build it -- to make the wife happy. Sadly, she has little faith in my ability to build things... Maybe as a compromise I can build it and the handyman can do the skinning / molding which I have no experience with.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Make sure your 75 isn't tempered.Most bottoms of tanks are , and some are completely tempered(sides and all)!Being tempered would put an end to the drilling posibilty.
Possibly bad news as this was the first link to deep blue aquariums I found;
Deep Blue Professional - Aquariums & Aquatic Accessories
Your 75 for filter is deep blue correct?


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## zwanged

It was a very inexpensive tank ($115 from my LFS) so I doubted that it would have any tempered glass. Double checked the model # (it is 11075) and you're 100% right, it's TEMPERED ON ALL SIDES. Good catch!! I didn't know such cheap tanks would be tempered at all!

Back to square one??

I did a little more research on submersible pumps... perhaps the Sicce Syncra 10.0 or 12.0 pump fits the bill? 

Checked the data sheet and the syncra 10.0 can do about 1300 gph at 12 feet of lift. the 12.0 seems like a big step up -- perhaps too much? like 2000gph at 12' of lift. I think the 10.0 may be slightly underpowered and the 12.0 is definitely overpowered. 

If in doubt I guess I"ll go with the 12.0. I'm not sure exactly how the plumbing will look until there's a hole in my floor...could easily be several elbows/bends required.

Perhaps just go with the overpowered 12.0 pump and tee off some of the flow back into the sump? i'm not sure that throttling it instead will be such a great idea as that will make it run hotter, and reduce pump lifespan right?

spec sheet here:

http://sicceus.com/pdf/syncra_hf_spec.pdf

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Make sure your 75 isn't tempered.Most bottoms of tanks are , and some are completely tempered(sides and all)!Being tempered would put an end to the drilling posibilty.
> Possibly bad news as this was the first link to deep blue aquariums I found;
> Deep Blue Professional - Aquariums & Aquatic Accessories
> Your 75 for filter is deep blue correct?


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## coralbandit

The model 12 will probably not flow full speed if you don't use the recommened 1 1/2 inch pvc return line.If you were to use 1 inch and T it under tank you probably won't have to throttle it.Your best bet either way is to T in sump and return 1 line to a ball valve in the sump jsut in case.I did this with my mag 18 on my 120(with pump in stand under tank) and I have no need to throttle at all).I also came off pump with 1 inch pvc and it (besides being Td to both returns is reduced to fit the returns even further).
The model 12 looks like a good pump.


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## zwanged

Sounds good. I think I've finally decided on what to order. I don't think I have the energy to build such a stand for such a big tank myself...

Here's what I'm thinking:

Aquarium : 180 gallon aqueon with two built-in corner overflows. If you think I should really be doing 210 instead please let me know 

Stand + Canopy: R&J Aquatics Extreme Stand : 72x24 -- walnut stain. Has 36inch deck height....which should it make it more visible from other areas of the kitchen/living room.

Aquarium Cabinets Stands Canopies

Also, my current stocking on the 75 is:

2 severums, 2 firemouths, 2 electric blue jack dempseys, 2 honduran red points, 4 synodontis nigriventris and 3 albino bristlenose plecos.

I plan to return one of the firemouths -- the pale, smaller one that is bullying everyone -- and one of the electric blue jack dempseys (hopefully for store credit!!)...and get 1 salvini. Thoughts? 

The 180 gallon stand will sit on ceramic kitchen tile which almost certainly isn't perfectly even. Would you recommend underlaying it with carpet padding to smooth out any unevenness in the tile? I have leftover high quality felt carpet padding in the basement...it's a little thick but very nice stuff. 

Finally, I thought I would add a Fluval FX-5 under the cabinet as a supplemental / backup filter. Also might help remove any detritus that doesn't get kicked into the overflows.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Thanks,
-Zeke


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## coralbandit

You'll be happy with the 180 and so will your fish.I don't think the overflows are in the corners,mine are about 8 inches from the corner(probably for best skimming).Those stands and canopies look nice should be no problem there.
Sounds like you're on good standing with the LFS so hopefully they are good to you.
The salvini looks like a beautiful fish! As long as he isn't bigger than your other fish he should be no problem(good looking fish!).
I would most surely use the carpet padding under stand as it can't hurt and certainly will help.
The canister is a good idea to have for chemical treatment and safety should pump on sump fail.Rod4Roger says he uses his canister with sponge and purigen on a timer like every 6 hours for maybe 1 hour(unsure of exact timming).He says this keeps bacteria alive and his water crystal clear.Really sound like a good efficient way to use additional filteration and have a secondary set up in case of emergency.


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## zwanged

Returned the smaller firemouth today. LFS took it back. 

The aqueons seem to come in 2 versions: corner overflows and corner offset overflows. I don't know which version they carry. In theory think I would prefer the corner version because I can at least see them from the side to clean etc. Also more room for aquascaping. My tank's not really going to be very viewable from the side anyway -- only 18" on each side.

My LFS is odd. I asked them if they carry the 180gal predrilled aqueon tank and they say that their distributor only offers the 210. Should I just go for the 210???  That only seems to have the offset overflow option.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> You'll be happy with the 180 and so will your fish.I don't think the overflows are in the corners,mine are about 8 inches from the corner(probably for best skimming).Those stands and canopies look nice should be no problem there.
> Sounds like you're on good standing with the LFS so hopefully they are good to you.
> The salvini looks like a beautiful fish! As long as he isn't bigger than your other fish he should be no problem(good looking fish!).
> I would most surely use the carpet padding under stand as it can't hurt and certainly will help.
> The canister is a good idea to have for chemical treatment and safety should pump on sump fail.Rod4Roger says he uses his canister with sponge and purigen on a timer like every 6 hours for maybe 1 hour(unsure of exact timming).He says this keeps bacteria alive and his water crystal clear.Really sound like a good efficient way to use additional filteration and have a secondary set up in case of emergency.


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## coralbandit

The only difference is the depth.Being you plan on FW the depth not is as much a factor in lighting as it would be in SW.As long as you feel you will be able to service it(being I think 29" deep) should be no big deal.
I actually would choose the offset overflows if I had been given a choice(I wasn't,and not real sure why I choose it?) but I think they are better positioned to skim entire surface and I return water towards the corners(each return is Yd to return one on surface pointing towards front and second points down towards the bottom and corner(I pretty much set my 120 returns the same).Possibly a creature of habbit but I like they way water moves and how fish choose to be in flow or not.
As crazy as it sounds I just look up from in the stand to see how clean the overflow is.My freshwater overflows stay incredibaly clean compared to the salts.To clean them I mostly use long tube cleaner in the "built in flow area" ,brush off top around true overflow (inside and out) and pull the "durso"to drain the whole overflow and any small debris that has settled in it(never much at all as I said in FW).
Ha and rambling leads me to another thought(no real biggy),but I'm going to bet you will have to drill/cut out part of the stand for the overflows.All my newest stands(last 5 years)have no solid base so I can see the whole bottom of tank ,but my 180 does have solid base under bottom of aquarium that I cut out a 6"x12" space so I can veiw overflows and allows the plumbing space(and you will want space to attach bulk heads,at least 6"x12" maybe more than 6" as the wrench that is supplied for bulkheads requires a "little room" for easy use.


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## zwanged

Beefed up the midpoint of my kitchen floor joists (9 foot span) with two adjustable jacks and a 4x4 running between them. Seems pretty sturdy. The tank's weight will be over two floor joists but I think the third joist will bear some of the load as well. The subfloor is OSB and the kitchen floor is tile. The joists are 2x10s spaced 16" apart. Do you think I've done enough? 

In the kitchen above this area, the tank will sit pretty much centered above where I reinforced, parallel to the wall with the window. 



If I do a 210 that's gonna still be a *lot* of weight! 210 gal * 8.5 gal pound/gal = 1785 pounds + 150 pounds of substrate + 150 pound stand (estimate) + decorations, etc. is going to be at least 2100 pounds. Perhaps I can convince my LFS to get me a 180 instead even though they told me their supplier doesn't carry the 180 drilled...seems like BS to me.

I'm a bit peeved that my home is built in 2003, and in 2004 the code changed so that floors are way beefier -- i believe after 2004 2x12 are required every foot instead of 2x10 every 16". Had no idea about this stuff when I bought the house 

I am pretty sure the back of the R&J stand is mostly clear (will have to confirm on this particular model but another smaller stand i saw in the store was clear in the back.) so I probably shouldn't have a problem running PVC back and then down through a hole in the floor behind the stand. I was planning to put the stand about 6-7 inches out from the wall.

Zeke


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## coralbandit

Supports look more than adequate.You need to measure how thick your foundation is.Do this buy measuring the concrete thickness through the window opening.I'll bet the plate(base of your wall above,in kitchen is not as thick.)If you try to come through floor close to wall in kitchen then you may end up on top of concrete foundation,as the foundation will be at least 8-10 inches thick and wall in kitchen is probably 5 1/2-6 inches counting sheet rock.You'd really like to be about 1 foot from kitchen wall to clear foundation.Possibly even more due to positioning of first 2x10 joist?Removing the diagnol tile and next full one and drilling small test hole should be done so you can see where it lands you in basement(the center of hole needs to be the radius+1/2 inch from the joist aprox.)
Tell your LFS you don't want 210 and changed your mind unless they can get 180.
You forgot to add tank and stand weight(they will be very close to if not more than 300lbs.)


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## zwanged

What would be the optimal positioning of the tank with respect to the 3 joists? if it's 24 inches deep and it's 16" between joists then it will have to sit over at least 2 joists no matter what. 

I took some measurements from a nearby floor vent that I can see in my basement to get a pretty good approximation of where I would need to run the pipes. There is a *small* clearance between the concrete foundation wall and the first joist. Like 2 inches. But I will need to make sure that I don't hit the joist when going through!! That clearance is barely enough for 1.5" PVC pipe. Maybe I can sneak the pipes through there? In the kitchen above, that would be 4-6" from the baseboard trim. -- basically right behind where the tank stand would be. 

I will ask my handyman about removing tile..it might make more sense to just drill a hole through tile/subfloor for each pipe, and change out that area to a floor vent later if I ever move? Or maybe just go through the baseboard trim instead? 

I think I will leave this part to my handyman --who is very good. I don't want to screw this up  I will see what his opinion is...

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Ordered the following today:

* Aqueon 180 gallon predrilled tank w/ offset overflows (72x24x24) Lead time: 1 week
* RJAquatics Extreme Oak (Walnut stain) 72x24 stand + canopy. Lead time: 2-3 weeks
* Glass lids 
* 2 Plumbing kits (one for each overflow) -- includes standpipe + bulkheads + fittings

I'm excited...

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Looks like my main 75 tank got an ich infestation from adding the plecos / EBJDs...time for quickcure again...at half doses. Good news is I think I caught it early.

Wonder if it's worth buying a UV sterilizer for the 180, or totally unnecessary?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Ah the trained eye catches it early!If you caught it early enough it is easier than most find to cure.Vac your substrate and get those meds in there!Good job and good luck!
And I'm excited for you on your order,I'll have get my but in gear for you!
Can't wait to see the big tank up with your fish in it!


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## zwanged

Yeah unfortunately I've had enough ich infestations gotten good at catching it early 

Just don't have the discipline to do QT 

Oh well, at least fewer meds are needed for a 75gal + 15 gal sump (90 gal) than a 180 + 75gal sump (255 gal) 

I'm gonna try to get a Salvini in here in the next few days if possible as long as I'm medicating the tank...

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Ah the trained eye catches it early!If you caught it early enough it is easier than most find to cure.Vac your substrate and get those meds in there!Good job and good luck!
> And I'm excited for you on your order,I'll have get my but in gear for you!
> Can't wait to see the big tank up with your fish in it!


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## coralbandit

Possibly once you're established in the basement(filter and all) a QT could fit in the filter stand? Any excuse for another tank works for me!Might even be handy to have when not in use as QT for a coincidental breeder/fry tank?


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## zwanged

Perhaps...I'll think about it. Also depends on what my wife lets me do. haha.

I do have a few 10gal tanks lying around that I could use. The main reason I haven't done QT is unfortunately laziness / do not want to maintain more tanks than I have to. There is a 30gal in the basement that currently has amano shrimp / guppies ... they are kind of neglected down there .. :-(

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Hi -- I was wondering what supplemental / additional filtration I should do on the 180gal tank?

Cascade 1500? Fluval FX5? Eheim 2217 (one or two?) Don't want to spend more than $250 on this. But having a good design that won't leak and is easy to maintain is a must. Head height will be a bit more than typical -- probably 5 feet -- (Unless i elevate the filter) as the stand has a 36" deck height. My Gut tells me I should just go with 1 FX5 and be done with it...

Do you think the dual overflows will provide enough circulation and I should just run this backup filter in the SUMP? Or just put it on the main tank?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

If it's not to loud(most canisters boast silence)I would run it in the tank.You could probably run the intake inside one of the overflows(so not to be seen) and return wherever in tank.
I really like(respect) how Rod4Rodger says he runs his canister with only sponges(they will and can become biological) and purigen on a timer .He says he runs them for like 1 hour every 6 hours,keeping the bio bacteria alive and polishing his water also.The monster filter(sump) you'll be running will be more than efficient,and the canister can serve to use the purigen and have a biological backup if the main pump in sump were to have issues.
If more circulation is desired hydors are the bomb,and easily installed,moved or removed.


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## zwanged

Yeah I do have a hydor koralia 750 lying around that I could always use for added circulation...I guess I'll just run a FX5 on the tank. Putting it on a timer isn't a bad idea. 

I'm planning to just paint the back of the tank black so I think I can place the intake and return wherever.

Btw should I be able to slide an empty 180 + stand across a ceramic tile floor by myself without any problems? It's gonna be like 400 pounds...It's possible that I might get the stand before I can get the tile work done.

How much purigen will I need? the media capacity on the FX5 is huge....I think I might pass on the water polishing thing...

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> If it's not to loud(most canisters boast silence)I would run it in the tank.You could probably run the intake inside one of the overflows(so not to be seen) and return wherever in tank.
> I really like(respect) how Rod4Rodger says he runs his canister with only sponges(they will and can become biological) and purigen on a timer .He says he runs them for like 1 hour every 6 hours,keeping the bio bacteria alive and polishing his water also.The monster filter(sump) you'll be running will be more than efficient,and the canister can serve to use the purigen and have a biological backup if the main pump in sump were to have issues.
> If more circulation is desired hydors are the bomb,and easily installed,moved or removed.


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## coralbandit

Put towels(not good ones under tank/stand and it should slide ok.The 180(my fourth 6 footer,but first 2 foot wide) is the only tank I had to have help getting on the stand,and in the house.
I know everyone says to be most efficient you need to fill a tray or whatever, but I use the 100 gallon pre packaged sacks in my sump freely floating and they work just fine(it's eay enough to tell when they change color).I prefer the pre packeged sacks as the mesh bag seachem provides is oustanding ,and in order to recharge it must be soaked in bleach which eats anything(except the seachem pre packeged bag).So I have 3 bags free floating where all water must pass and can recharge 1 or 2 while still having 1 in effect.Even if they are used in a canister and some can by pass it some water willgo through it,the color change tells the story.$30 worth of purigen (pre packaged ) has been in effect for more than a year so far.


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## zwanged

Since I'm treating the tank for ich anyway, i went ahead and added a salvini. Found a home for the second EBJD (kept the bully, removed the runt). So I think everything should be in good shape! Just gotta get rid of this ich...and wait for the 180 to come in.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

So i ran the aqadvisor calculator on the current tank stock...here's what i get...

AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

Guess i'll be pretty much maxed out once the fish get to full size...right? I don't think overstocking CA/SA cichlids is such a good idea....thoughts?

Zeke


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## zwanged

Found a *sweet* piece of driftwood at my LFS! They only had one like this and it came in like a week ago...I feel lucky I got it! Was $80. Not too crazy considering the size. It's 3 ft wide x 18 inches deep x 2 ft high Apparently this came off of the North Carolina Coast. I think it will be perfect for the 180.

view from the front:


view from the back:


compared to my 75 gal tank:



-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Nice piece of wood! Should be sweet in your tank!A pic of the salvini would be great,it was a good looking fish from my searches.And ya,AQ has you 89% and your guys are 100% tough so the "breathing room" may be necessary.


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## zwanged

Don't have a good pic of the salvini yet, here's a pic when I was acclimating it. It's a little roughed up but out of the 40 salvinis i saw in the store tank this was one that actually had some color. I think it's a female due to the dorsal splotch. Fins should heal up soon, hopefully. So far seems to be getting along well with the other fish. The female honduran red point even seems to have seniority over this fish, at least for now...



-Zeke




coralbandit said:


> Nice piece of wood! Should be sweet in your tank!A pic of the salvini would be great,it was a good looking fish from my searches.And ya,AQ has you 89% and your guys are 100% tough so the "breathing room" may be necessary.


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## zwanged

I'm starting to think about how I'm going to do lighting on this 180. I think I want the tank to be a low light tank with low light tolerant plants...so Java ferns + Anubias. attached to the main driftwood. Note I'm planning to use a dark substrate so I'm guessing it'll be harder to light versus my current lighter substrate in the 75 (pool filter sand).

What route would you recommend that I go? I don't really want to spend more than $200, but i do want good enough coverage so that it looks nice. 

Suggestions? What size fixture? Should I go with smaller fixtures and stagger them -- given that a 180 is pretty deep? My instinct is that i'll get poor coverage with a single 72" fixture. What about LEDs instead of T5's? 

Thanks!
-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Currently I'm running 1 zoo med double t5ho(48") with my current true lumen pro LED 48" strips(x2 ; [email protected] and 1 @ deep blue) I'm not super satisfied with the led on my freshwater tanks(I love them on my salts).Current does make a 8000K version of the true lumen pro which might be part of my problem(I grow algae on plants using the 12000K).I also keep my lights on longer than I should.I went back to the t5ho in replacement of a couple LED strips and it has been better,than when I ran 4 led strips.
The currents are pricey ;like $160 per 4' strip plus $45 for transformer.1 transformer runs 2 48" strips.
I would look into a t5ho(maybe 72" double with seperate switches fo each bulb if they exist?)


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## zwanged

Found a solution...Planning on doing two 36" Aqueon modular LED fixtures, each with three white LED modules. Does this sound good? Not *too* expensive and seems pretty decent. I already have one on my 30gal cube and it seems fine. 

Amazon.com: Aqueon LED Aquarium Light Fixture, 36-Inch: Pet Supplies

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Seems like a decent light by the reveiws I read.Should work out well.May want to consider using one colormax strip in each fixture for a little color enhancement?


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## zwanged

Maybe...that much white light might be a little too harsh.

I ordered two 36" fixtures -- each comes with 1 day light LED module. I got 1 additional day light LED module and 1 colormax module for each. Think this should work out well...

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Seems like a decent light by the reveiws I read.Should work out well.May want to consider using one colormax strip in each fixture for a little color enhancement?


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## zwanged

Update: I seem to have lost the ability to post here without moderator approval. I also am somehow unable to send PMS anymore!

Coralbandit: I did receive receive the drawer assembly, thank you! It fits the top of the tank fairly well. 

Some of the nylon bolts sheared off during shipping but I was able to find replacements @ home depot and everything otherwise appears to be in good shape.

Hopefully this PM issue can be resolved soon so we can continue our conversation! I still need to pay you!

Should the drawers face toward the inside of the tank? Also, what is the function of the piece of acrylic that hangs lower below the lip by like 5 inches?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Ya! My post are not going right through either!Drawers face into filter so you can open and water stays in filter.Take the eggcrate and hang it horizontal with 4 zip ties from last drawer nuts even with the bottom of the long piece in front and place your bio media in there.It makes the fouth wall(aquarium being other three to have bio media under drawers).Hopefully they get the bugs out of site so everyone is up and posting.


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## zwanged

Just waiting on the tank and the stand...another 1-2 weeks...

If I run the FX5 full time -- in addition to the sump wet/dry -- I wonder how often I will need to clean the FX5?

I'm thinking about running it part time on a timer to save on operating costs and reduce maintenance.

Here's what I'm thinking for media on the FX5 -- let me know your input

Shelf 1 (top) : Fluval pre-filter ceramic media ( 2 boxes)
Shelf 2: Fluval polishing pad above ceramic biomedia from my old filter
Shelf 3: Fluval polishing pad above ceramic biomedia from my old filter

Old filter had 5 boxes of biomedia so i'll even have some left over...evidently the FX5 holds 2 boxes of biomedia per shelf.


-Zeke


----------



## coralbandit

Sounds good.I would use a sponge prefilter on the intake as that will be easily accessible to be cleaned without taking canister apart.The sump should do most of the "leg work" as long as you have enough flow(more than canister).
The prefilter sponge would also help with maintenance and having to get inside canister.It sounds like a lot of bio media so the cleaner you can keep it(with prefilter) the less you would need to do with the canister.


----------



## zwanged

So here's my plan:

(1) Get tank + stand. Paint back of tank black using roller. Drill holes in kitchen floor, plumb sump. Install backup FX5. Test both. Make sure I'm getting the right flow rate from the basement sump pump. I'll probably have to tee off some flow...as by my calculations it'll do about 1800GPH at 12' of head height. The 1" returns only do 600GPH each (or in reality do they do a bit more??) My 75gal has a mag 9.5 which theoretically does 800GPH at 3.5' of lift, and it still drains fast enough...

(2) Clean 150 pounds of black diamond blasting sand. Put in tank. change water a few times until clear. 

(3) Attach bunch of java ferns + anubias to driftwood. Add to tank. Hopefully it sinks...it kinda still floats in my bathtub -- where it is maybe 80% submerged.

(4) Install LED lighting + heaters (should I go with two 300W heaters, one in sump + one in main tank? Any specific recommendations? My current 150W heaters are aqueon pro heaters which seem decent + not too expensive).

(5) Migrate the ceramic + pad biomedia over from old sump to new sump (and FX5).

(6) drain 90gal (half) of water from the 180 tank. Make sure the water that remains roughly matches the temperature and pH of the 75.

(7) move 3/4 of the water from the 75gal to the 180. Treat with prime + make sure temp and pH roughly match! Move over the fish -- just net them 1 at a time + carry across the room?

(8) move over remaining water from old tank to new tank. Top off as necessary.

(9) Turn on basement sump return pump + FX5.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan? I don't think I should need to cycle the 180 since my biomedia should be well established at this point...

Comments?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

1. I was told the holes are now 1 1/4 " instead of 1" so probably going to handle at least 1400-1600 gph.With elbows and the reduction at the return bulkhead you may be able to run unthrottled,but it is easier to install a "T" with a ball valve.
2. good
3.I'll hope for you.
4.aqueon pros are the best IMO and they really could probably go in sump,I have [email protected] in my sump as I didn't see 300 on kensfish.
5.good.
6&7 I'm not so sure you need to move water but if it's not to much trouble no biggy.I might jst do a massive water change on 75 the day before or earlier in the day(sorta acclimating as long as it's all the same water?
8.Back to 6?
9.If you don't trafer water you can have it running already.
And noproblem with cycle using your existing media.
When I set up the 120 for my discus I used a cycled sponge(my version of bio) and 100% new water.They spawned the next day!
All in all the plan sounds good,I'm no so sure you need to move any water,but thats up to you.Temp and pH being consistent with tank are imporant.If they are close then catch and release should be fine,I move fry with net from where they are born to grow out tank everyday and nevere lose any(all my water is the same as I make no adjustments to it ever.)


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## zwanged

Starting to plan out where to put holes in the kitchen floor. I think i'll just try to limit the damage to 1 tile.

Here's what I was planning. It's kind of offset from center but it's unavoidable given the tile configuration. For reference, the outlet on the wall is roughly centered on the room. I figure the return line should be roughly symmetric between both overflows... It's not quite symmetric but within a few inches so should be fine I guess.

I also thought of adding in a 1" PVC utility drain for when I'm vacuuming which can drain into my basement sump (NON-AQUARIUM) pit.

What do you think? As you can see -- it's off-center to the left by maybe 4 inches.









Layout of the holes:









Also, the tank outline is roughly centered over the 2 joists.

Thanks,
-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Just did a little searching and came up with a post from someone who "communicated" with aqueon ,who told him 750 gph per overflow(sounds like what the owner of my # 2 LFs said,#2 is where I buy my tanks for last 15 years.Order buy sunday here on Wednsday!And very reasonable prices.)So I would figure you can handle 1500 gph aprox.


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## zwanged

Should I consider doing 1 1/4" PVC instead of 1" PVC for the drains, to prevent clogging causing a flood? 1" PVC doesn't look so big to me...Or am I worrying over nothing? 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Just did a little searching and came up with a post from someone who "communicated" with aqueon ,who told him 750 gph per overflow(sounds like what the owner of my # 2 LFs said,#2 is where I buy my tanks for last 15 years.Order buy sunday here on Wednsday!And very reasonable prices.)So I would figure you can handle 1500 gph aprox.


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## coralbandit

If it fits then the bigger the better.I use a flex hose(1").You won't overflow as long as you can control your pump no matter what you use.You'll start the tank up,at a throttled speed if you install "T" and ball valve and look into your overflow.Then you'll be able to turn the pump up.This is tricky visually and with the "durso"(mega overflow kit) water i always high in overflow.When I pull the durso out(to flush the overflow there is no restriction of flow and not 1/2" of water ever stays in the overflow),so possibly adjust pump without durso in place and then watch for issues after installing it.


----------



## zwanged

Yeah...I bought a remote controlled outlet so I can remotely shut off my basement sump pump from the breakfast room above....so I don't have to run downstairs while I have a flood in my breakfast room  This should be useful while troubleshooting...

I think I'm gonna stick to schedule 40 PVC. It probably doesn't matter so much if i have a few elbows as the pump is way too powerful anyway. Trying to decide if I want to just use 1 1/14" pipe everywhere or if that's overkill...already bought a bunch of 1" pipe.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> If it fits then the bigger the better.I use a flex hose(1").You won't overflow as long as you can control your pump no matter what you use.You'll start the tank up,at a throttled speed if you install "T" and ball valve and look into your overflow.Then you'll be able to turn the pump up.This is tricky visually and with the "durso"(mega overflow kit) water i always high in overflow.When I pull the durso out(to flush the overflow there is no restriction of flow and not 1/2" of water ever stays in the overflow),so possibly adjust pump without durso in place and then watch for issues after installing it.


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## coralbandit

NICE! I really couldn't imagine the true good use of your other post about remotes,BUT now I see and if I had issues would be truely envious!


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## zwanged

It's just a regular remote and not network-controlled but still can see this being useful...

This is what I ordered:

5 Wireless Controlled Electrical Switch Socket Outlets with 1 Remote (Battery Included) - Amazon.com


-zeke



coralbandit said:


> NICE! I really couldn't imagine the true good use of your other post about remotes,BUT now I see and if I had issues would be truely envious!


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## coralbandit

With the amount of water your sump can hold,YA!
Although I'll try to put you at ease by saying NONE of my drilled tanks have ever overflowed,ONLY ones using an overflow box,which (loving sumps,and feeling they are the best filtration available and buildable(DIY)),I will never purchase a display tank that is not drilled.


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## zwanged

Better get this 180 soon..my fish are starting to kick the crap out of each other. Of course, the excessive aggression may also be because the tank was 82 degrees when I got home today and may have even been higher...I didn't turn on my AC and the house got hot! Cichlids + hot water = badly split fins.

I think this is their way of telling me they want the new tank! The tank itself has arrived at my LFS but still waiting on the stand, which should probably come sometime this week at the earliest or next week at the latest.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Finally...the 180 stand is getting delivered Thursday. Then I gotta pick up the tank itself...and find some folks to help me unload the tank! There's no way my wife and I can lift it ourselves...a.282 pound tank is a lot of weight + bulk.

If all goes well I might be able to get the 180 up and running this weekend. It depends when I can get those holes in the floor drilled.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

The 180 stand (oak / walnut) from RJ aquatics came today. Build quality seems OKAY but not great. Some of the molding came loose, and I'll have to glue it down. Also the plywood for the horizontal surface where the tank sits is super-thin, though i guess it doesn't matter all that much as the weight is all on the edge, anyway. Some minor damage to the side during shipment, but mostly seems intact. Here's a pic:










Picked up the 180 tank today from LFS. *barely* fit in my car 









more updates to follow...

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

SWEET! The stand looks nice(can't see it's injury),and holey****,it fit in your car!I fit my 120 in my wifes MKX ,but everything bigger(all 6' tanks) came home in my truck or one of my enclosed trailers!
Looking forward to seeing this progress and on a serious note.....ENJOY THE SET UP,BE PATIENT, AND CONGRATS ON THE STEP UP!


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## zwanged

Hey...

Dumb question...

I got the tank with two Aqueon Megaflow overflow kits which supposedly work with the 180 , but it seems like they come with return plumbing that's only 3/4" on the return! WTF? What do I do, return them, or mod the bulkheads to make them bigger (e.g. cut off the barb fittings...+ open up the top of the bulkhead a bit?) Seems like restricting the return flow is not such a great idea...

-Zeke


----------



## coralbandit

AH!I searched but couldn't find where I thought I mentioned the multiple reductions in line finally to the return.If you oversized your pump you'll soon see why the ball valve and "T" may not be necessary.Both my 120 and 180 have the same bulkheads,and although I could have changed them,I think(check into bulk reef supply for bulkheads if you feel the need) I am running both tanks with the bulkheads supplied.
Give them a try,if you have to change them you only need to drain the overflow and not the whole tank,but both my systems seem to run well with the bulkheads supplied.
Remind me what pump(specs) you got?
You should really be fine and possibly this(smaller return bulkheads) is why the tanks I have have never overflowed(restricted return)?
I really wouldn't sweat it ,set it up(with ball valve and "T",which I don't use on my 120 and don't even have on 180) and see how it runs.
Sometimes we have too much knowledge for our own good and even possibly over think things we never would have even thought about before.
They make them this way for a reason.
One of my "philosophies" (like many other people)is;everything happens for a reason,where my thinking is different(and possibly how I have a small grip on sanity is ) that I don't think we always need to know the reason,or deserve to know(at the moment).Wisdom is gained with time and experience.
Hope that doesn't sound to foo-foo,but seriously ,ours is not to wonder why,yet I do sometimes(small grip on sanity,did I mention?)


----------



## zwanged

The pump is a Sicce Syncra HF 12.0. Can do like 1600GPH at 12' of lift (3200gph at 0' of lift).

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> AH!I searched but couldn't find where I thought I mentioned the multiple reductions in line finally to the return.If you oversized your pump you'll soon see why the ball valve and "T" may not be necessary.Both my 120 and 180 have the same bulkheads,and although I could have changed them,I think(check into bulk reef supply for bulkheads if you feel the need) I am running both tanks with the bulkheads supplied.
> Give them a try,if you have to change them you only need to drain the overflow and not the whole tank,but both my systems seem to run well with the bulkheads supplied.
> Remind me what pump(specs) you got?
> You should really be fine and possibly this(smaller return bulkheads) is why the tanks I have have never overflowed(restricted return)?
> I really wouldn't sweat it ,set it up(with ball valve and "T",which I don't use on my 120 and don't even have on 180) and see how it runs.
> Sometimes we have too much knowledge for our own good and even possibly over think things we never would have even thought about before.
> They make them this way for a reason.
> One of my "philosophies" (like many other people)is;everything happens for a reason,where my thinking is different(and possibly how I have a small grip on sanity is ) that I don't think we always need to know the reason,or deserve to know(at the moment).Wisdom is gained with time and experience.
> Hope that doesn't sound to foo-foo,but seriously ,ours is not to wonder why,yet I do sometimes(small grip on sanity,did I mention?)


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## coralbandit

Install your ball valve with a"T" return to sump,but I'll still lean towards you wont' need it.Are you returning from pump with one line to be split under tank(in stand) andwhat size line?Even if you come from pump with 1 1/2 inch ,splitting it would be to 2 @ 3/4?


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## coralbandit

Even if you made some form of modification to the bulkhead,the hole in the overflow for return will still be same size.I really have to believe they did some "calculations" to determine necessary flow?


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## zwanged

Yeah I already have my ball valve with "T" return to sump already in place.

The return pump has a 1.5" outlet which I'm going to reduce to a single 1.25" PVC line that will run up to the kitchen and then split off under the tank (in the stand), splitting into two 1" PVC returns. And the those are going to get further reduced to 3/4" for each in the overflow box...so I'm wondering how much this is going to hurt my flow.

Check the following table here:

GPM/GPH Flow based on PVC Pipe Size, ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"

If I am actually getting like 800GPH per overflow (an optimistic estimate given the bends, etc), then I'm looking at like low to average pressure through the 3/4" return plumbing. So perhaps the impact of restricting the flow isn't too terrible. Though I think I'll probably do PVC spraybars instead of the "Y"'s that come with the kit.

-Zeke 




coralbandit said:


> Install your ball valve with a"T" return to sump,but I'll still lean towards you wont' need it.Are you returning from pump with one line to be split under tank(in stand) andwhat size line?Even if you come from pump with 1 1/2 inch ,splitting it would be to 2 @ 3/4?


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## coralbandit

I would think a spray bar would create the greatest restriction and seriously slow down the flow.Use spray bar with your canister(spraying in middle of tank) and use the supplied returns in the corners aimed towards bottom and top of glass to get full spread.


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## zwanged

Believe me....the spraybar on my 75 does not restrict flow much at all. To be fair, i drilled like 100+ holes though  That said, I'll try the stock plumbing kit first and see if it tosses my fish around  Might be fine as-is as it's a big tank.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I would think a spray bar would create the greatest restriction and seriously slow down the flow.Use spray bar with your canister(spraying in middle of tank) and use the supplied returns in the corners aimed towards bottom and top of glass to get full spread.


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## zwanged

Ok, i'll look into doing that for the FX5...that's a good idea.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I would think a spray bar would create the greatest restriction and seriously slow down the flow.Use spray bar with your canister(spraying in middle of tank) and use the supplied returns in the corners aimed towards bottom and top of glass to get full spread.


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## zwanged

Got a lot of work to do this weekend...

(1) get jigsaw (don't have one!) for cutting openings in top of stand for overflow plumbing. 

(2) Drill holes in bottom of stand for pipes coming up through floor.

(3) drill holes in tile floor using hole saw (+ keep wet). Will space the holes out minimum of 1" apart. I used diamond coated tile bits.

(4) get tank on the stand!

(5) do plumbing for returns, drains

(6) The fun part: start adding driftwood, sand, plants, decrations, water, and eventually fish!


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## coralbandit

I would get a large (4" at least ) hole saw and just drill one hole.Drill a pilot hole first to make sure you know where it is comming through in basement.Possibly getting a masonary hole saw is best for tile as the average hole saw will not go through tile.You could even probably rent one from places like nations rent or similiar contruction equipment rental bussiness.If you're going to try with regular hole saw I would try running the drill in reverse to go through the tile as the true cuuting action in masonary objects is more like "abrasive grinding" and not truely cutting.
Cut large enough holes(opennings )in the stand to be able to use the silly wrench they give with the mega overflow.You may need to tighten them in the future or remove them all together and on my 180 I didn't make the opening much bigger than necessary and ended up "losing" the wrench in the space under tank and inbetween the stand!I think I got it out finally with a flexible magnet,but can't be sure as they supply one with every kit(got like3 or 4 now anyways).
Have a shop vac running while drilling tile as just wet will not keep them from getting hot(and cracking) and running a light trickle of water is probably necessary(run the shop vac(wet dry) during this whole time).


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## zwanged

I just ended up doing 4 holes using a diamond blade tile saw (keeping tile wet while drilling) followed by a hole saw. Took a WHILE! O well. Will post pics tomorrow. I accidentally chipped a small piece of my tile because my drill's torque was too high (oops!) and the kickback did a little damage, oh well... Live and learn...I'm just glad the holes are done with . 

Tank's on the stand now and positioned on the wall.

Spraypainted back of tank black w/ a few coats of satin krylon fusion. I covered up all the walls and the rest of the area with plastic, but spraypaint seems to have a way of going wherever it wants to ... just glad it's done now!

One thing I'm not sure of: how should I orient the Y loc line that attaches to the return elbow? Looks like I have to have the Y go out either the outer cutout (toward the end of the tank or toward the inner cutout (toward the center of the tank).

Given that my fish prefer calmer water, I guess i'll just point the Y loc line for each overflow to each corner of the tank, rather than toward the center? There will be the FX5 in the middle of the tank anyway. What do you think? Is that weird?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

GOOD DEAL ! My returns come out of overflow bow in the corners,seems like the efficient placement and semi hidden.


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## zwanged

Okay ... whew..today was a long day.

Got pretty much all of the plumbing done. Still have to glue all the PVC joints. I tested it without any glue and it does drip a little in a few spots, understandably. Gotta add teflon tape to the bulkhead threads to avoid leakage too.

Tank's filled and looks pretty darn level which is good.

I tested the flow rate of the return pump through the plumbing. It is approx 1500GPH (50 gal in 3 mins).

Got my driftwood soaking in this tank finally. Still floating sideways...so it looks a lot smaller than it is 






































To do:

Perhaps add in a few more unions. Prime and cement all PVC joints, add teflon tape to threaded joints, make sure there are no leaks.
Test overflows.
Test utility drain I added.


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## coralbandit

Looking good!


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## zwanged

Ugh this pvc gluing thing is a pain...can't wait for it to be over with! Not very forgiving...

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Hows things going?You didn't fall into the glue can did you?


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## zwanged

Hey thanks for checking in!

Everything seems to be working pretty well...I'll upload some pics tonight. Going to move the fish over tonight -- as soon as the water temperature gets up to 80ish. FX5 and sump are operational. Your drip trays work great!


-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Hows things going?You didn't fall into the glue can did you?


----------



## coralbandit

Glad to hear things are comming along,can't wait to see the pics!


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## zwanged

I'll post pics tomorrow... One problem that's bugging me: the vibration from the return pipe is excessive and my floor is humming rather loudly...I think it's just the pipe vibrating against the floor...any tips here? I tried shoving some pads under the pump but didn't seem to help much. Also tried securing the pipe to the jack post...still a lot of vibration...Will J hooks help here?

As a temporary solution I just throttled down the pump a lot so the vibration is lessened until I find a fix. The tank still has the FX5 so should be fine. 

Thanks,
-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Glad to hear things are comming along,can't wait to see the pics!


----------



## zwanged

Here are some pics post-move. The severums seemed a little stressed from the move -- the pH was approximately 0.8 different...(moved from 6.4 to 7.2). Hope they make it OK. rest of fish seemed FINE and weren't visibly bothered much at ALL.

Here are some updated pics, in the gallery, see link below.

zwanged's Library | Photobucket

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Update: next morning, fish seem fine...More pics later.

-Zeke


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## lonedove55

I've been following your thread here...tank looks awesome! You did a fantastic job and the driftwood really makes the tank!


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## zwanged

Thanks! I think i might do some rearrangement tonight...last night was just something i threw together real fast.

Btw the big center driftwood still isn't sinking. But i have it wedged between the glass lids and the substrate...hopefully it'll sink eventually!

-Zeke


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## zwanged

My Sicce Syncra HF 12.0 pump -- rated to do 2100GPH at 11' of lift -- is too damn powerful for the aqueon overflows -- even after factoring in additional flow loss from five 90 degree elbows, two ball valves, etc. At full throttle the megaflows are slurping like hell. 

I throttled it back with a ball valve (T'd back to the sump) by at least 1/3 and seems better now -- at least the slurping is gone.

The floor is humming less too, but the sound is still there.

I shoved some rubber tubing under the pump and that seemed to help dampen the vibrations somewhat, but the vibration is still propagating up the pipe all the same... 
Seems like the only way to mitigate the humming sound is to have flexible tubing somewhere in the return plumbing to decouple the pump's vibrations from the floor vibrations. Any tips? 

Now I kinda wish I just used flexible tubing for everything..sigh....but there's no turning back now! 

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Use the spiral stuff I sent you to put under pump(and on sides if it touches glass.)You could easily cut pvc where it goes through the floor and install flexible hose, or just try to squeeze some cushion(thin white stuff) in hole around the pipe.Possibly even silicone around the pvc,at the floor will help stop the vibrations.
I also wonder if your flow would be faster with flexible hose instead of the pvc with the 90's right under drain?


----------



## zwanged

The flow is already too powerful by like 1/3... I'll try siliconing around the PVC at the floor.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Use the spiral stuff I sent you to put under pump(and on sides if it touches glass.)You could easily cut pvc where it goes through the floor and install flexible hose, or just try to squeeze some cushion(thin white stuff) in hole around the pipe.Possibly even silicone around the pvc,at the floor will help stop the vibrations.
> I also wonder if your flow would be faster with flexible hose instead of the pvc with the 90's right under drain?


----------



## coralbandit

Talking about your drain flow.You have 90's right under the drains where a flexible line could angle right to the hole in floor unimpeded.


----------



## zwanged

It's actually much better now. I was able to eliminate the bulk of the vibration by doing as you suggested...except instead of siliconing i just used some adhesive pads around the return pipe at the base of the stand. There's still the sound of water draining but it's not terrible since I throttled the pump flow rate to something that the drains can handle.

Either that or I am just getting used to the sound...

-Zeke


----------



## coralbandit

I think you would be draining faster with flexible lines going from bulkhead of tank to the floor.You got two 90's under each drain and they are definately slowing the flow.


----------



## zwanged

There's still two 90s under the floor as welll...any downside to ditching all PVC and just doing flex hose *Everywhere* -- for drains and returns? I also didn't do thin-wall PVC for the 1" drains.............i imagine that is inhibiting flow too. 

Although this might be hard emotionally as I spent a lot of time and effort doing all the PVC stuff...I should've situated those elbows lower in the stand, now that you mention it!

I'll look into the flex hose option. Any specific recommendations?

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> I think you would be draining faster with flexible lines going from bulkhead of tank to the floor.You got two 90's under each drain and they are definately slowing the flow.


----------



## coralbandit

Flexible sump pump hose(either black or white).The black is usaully 1 1/4 and the white slightly smaller.I definately think you could drain much more with flexible(the PVC looks very neet and professional,but that's worth very little if you're not getting max flow).Go all flexible.Tank to sump,try to make it "tight" so water weight doesn't create low spots where the water would have to push itself through by gaining pressure from slowing.


----------



## zwanged

Should I still keep the T'd PVC fittings under the tank for the return lines, but just have hose lead up to that through the floor? I'm not realy used to working with this flex hose...is it easy to adapt to PVC fittings?


-Zeke




coralbandit said:


> Flexible sump pump hose(either black or white).The black is usaully 1 1/4 and the white slightly smaller.I definately think you could drain much more with flexible(the PVC looks very neet and professional,but that's worth very little if you're not getting max flow).Go all flexible.Tank to sump,try to make it "tight" so water weight doesn't create low spots where the water would have to push itself through by gaining pressure from slowing.


----------



## coralbandit

Ya "t" ing the return does not seem a problem(you have bonus return).The drains have seperate feeds to the sump since you have two intakes?The hose may need to have someting to make them tight on pvc fittings ,can't say from here,but I have used underground electric tape(real rubber) around pvc and really forced hose over it and pipe clamped it.
I do really think you will have more flow with black sump pump hose(pretty cheap at lowes or HD).
Even if you still need to keep pvc(6") to fit through floor, but run flex to it and from it the lack of 90's will really increase flow.You had all the charts on the return flow using 90's and if they slow a pressurised flow(to equal 1' of pipe) then I think they are definately slowing the gravity fed drains.
I need to delete some photos(who knows how many?),but will try to make space so I can load the photo of under my 180.
I've actually been considering upgrading to a mag 36 for my 180.I'm running all out with my mag 24 and cant have 10' of head,"t"d in my stand,with the same 3/4 bulk heads on tank.


----------



## zwanged

Ugh.

I tried the 1 1/4" sump pump hose and my flow rate doesn't seem as good as it was with PVC...hmm. I now hear a 'hissing' sound from the drains...turbulence on the flexible hose?? 

Overflows are still gurgling badly. do i need to drill more holes in the standpipe?? They seem to gurgle regardless of the flow rate of the pump...this is getting frustrating 

I can reduce the gurgling partially by slightly throttling *the DRAINS*. Not crazy about this idea but it helps a bit. 

also i'm going nuts here...i can't get my freakin threaded pvc shutoff valve off of the goddamn bulkhead...i want to add thread tape but it just aint coming off! any tips? i don't want to use tools here but i dont' see much choice....

So all in all I think this was a regression...sigh.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Ya "t" ing the return does not seem a problem(you have bonus return).The drains have seperate feeds to the sump since you have two intakes?The hose may need to have someting to make them tight on pvc fittings ,can't say from here,but I have used underground electric tape(real rubber) around pvc and really forced hose over it and pipe clamped it.
> I do really think you will have more flow with black sump pump hose(pretty cheap at lowes or HD).
> Even if you still need to keep pvc(6") to fit through floor, but run flex to it and from it the lack of 90's will really increase flow.You had all the charts on the return flow using 90's and if they slow a pressurised flow(to equal 1' of pipe) then I think they are definately slowing the gravity fed drains.
> I need to delete some photos(who knows how many?),but will try to make space so I can load the photo of under my 180.
> I've actually been considering upgrading to a mag 36 for my 180.I'm running all out with my mag 24 and cant have 10' of head,"t"d in my stand,with the same 3/4 bulk heads on tank.


----------



## coralbandit

Use pliers to get it off.Also try to see if taking off helps the draining(they are usaully smaller inside than the pipe they fit).Check to make sure there is a hole on the top of the durso,maybe even drill it a little larger(I did not have to do this ,but it may help with noise.Have you tried to see how fast you drain without the durso in place?This would be just for reference.When I pull the durso my overflow doesn't even hold a inch of water.


----------



## zwanged

Okay. Here's where I'm at.

I have gurgling mostly on the left overflow. There's also air bubbles coming out of the left return. If i turn down the pump flow a lot, then the problem is reduced. If i just run at full throttle i get tons of air bubbles in the left return line.

I tried increasing the hole in the standpipe to 1/4", helped a *little*, but still pretty loud... 

If I take out the standpipe, I'm where you're at, maybe 1" of water in the overflow box.

-Zeke




coralbandit said:


> Use pliers to get it off.Also try to see if taking off helps the draining(they are usaully smaller inside than the pipe they fit).Check to make sure there is a hole on the top of the durso,maybe even drill it a little larger(I did not have to do this ,but it may help with noise.Have you tried to see how fast you drain without the durso in place?This would be just for reference.When I pull the durso my overflow doesn't even hold a inch of water.


----------



## coralbandit

OK does the durso have 2 holes on the sides of where it inverts(the "U") ?There should be a hole on each side (aprox. 1/4-1/2").It really sounds like the issue is with the durso.I've read of people sticking a rigid airline into durso(through the top hole) to let air move quieter.
Did you get the pvc shut off ,off the bulkhead?
If the bubbles are comming out of left return there is either a leak in return piping(causing a venturi) or it is cavatating(forming a whirlpool in filter and drawing in air from surface).If the pump is causing cavatation ,do you have a 90 pointing to bottom of filter on pump intake? If it is not cavatation then the bubbles have be comming in through some pin hole leak.
The durso's are adjustable in height, do you have it as low as it can go in the overflow and how far down from the water surface (in tank) is it?


----------



## zwanged

Yes. the durso does have 2 holes on the side.

I did manage to get the pvc shutoff off the bulkhead, fortunately. 

Would I see water leak out of the return piping if there is a leak??

The pump is damn low in the tank so I don't think it is cavitating (no 90' elbow pointing downward though.

But I suppose it's possible some bubbles from the drip tray assembly get chopped up in there.

I'm going to guess it's a pinhole leak at this point. I did kinda twist the hose when I was messing around with the bulkheads which may have caused some very very small leaks (though i don't see any water leaking out).



coralbandit said:


> OK does the durso have 2 holes on the sides of where it inverts(the "U") ?There should be a hole on each side (aprox. 1/4-1/2").It really sounds like the issue is with the durso.I've read of people sticking a rigid airline into durso(through the top hole) to let air move quieter.
> Did you get the pvc shut off ,off the bulkhead?
> If the bubbles are comming out of left return there is either a leak in return piping(causing a venturi) or it is cavatating(forming a whirlpool in filter and drawing in air from surface).If the pump is causing cavatation ,do you have a 90 pointing to bottom of filter on pump intake? If it is not cavatation then the bubbles have be comming in through some pin hole leak.
> The durso's are adjustable in height, do you have it as low as it can go in the overflow and how far down from the water surface (in tank) is it?


----------



## coralbandit

Ya unfortunately while running the leak is drawing in air ,if you shut off pump then there is no water in pipe.See if you can"plug" the return up in the tank(while running,and full of water) and then look hard for leaks,even place paper towels under joints and unions.Let some water return to sump while doing this so the pump doesn't overheat, but possibly the leak will show with the return plugged.
Still not flowing fast enough with shut off removed?
Where are the holes in durso in comparison to water level in tank(even,couple of inches below)?
Your durso does adjust? and have you lowered it as much as possible,I actually may have cut two inches off of the male part of my two piece durso so I could make it go lower in the overflow chamber.


----------



## zwanged

Found the source of the air bubbles. I am actually getting them on both sides -- just to a greater degree on the left side.

It seems to be *by design*. The 90 degree elbow that connects to the twin loclines (returns) has a small hole drilled in it to prevent it from back-siphoning from the loc lines during a power outage. So I guess I just have to live with it? Maybe the bubbles will go away when the tank gets more established and maybe the bacteria and/or algae growing around the hole prevent the venturi effect? 

The elbow is nowhere near being submerged even if I raise the durso to the highest point.

Yes the durso is adjustable. The durso seems quietest around the mid-point of its range but still not as quiet as I'd like. It still gurgles intermittently. Btw I hate these aqueon dursos. they splash you when you pull them apart!!

-Zeke





coralbandit said:


> Ya unfortunately while running the leak is drawing in air ,if you shut off pump then there is no water in pipe.See if you can"plug" the return up in the tank(while running,and full of water) and then look hard for leaks,even place paper towels under joints and unions.Let some water return to sump while doing this so the pump doesn't overheat, but possibly the leak will show with the return plugged.
> Still not flowing fast enough with shut off removed?
> Where are the holes in durso in comparison to water level in tank(even,couple of inches below)?
> Your durso does adjust? and have you lowered it as much as possible,I actually may have cut two inches off of the male part of my two piece durso so I could make it go lower in the overflow chamber.


----------



## coralbandit

Ya my locklines are the same but I don't have any bubbles(maybe I'm not pushing enough).Try pointing returns more towards surface so the bubbles don't cause trouble.
Try putting tape over the hole and see if they go away.
I always keep one of my lock lines very close to surface if not breaking it as a syphon safety of my own.


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## zwanged

Also, I did measure my flow. I'm getting way less than I expected.

it's about 1050GPH roughly. So either the pump is underperforming badly or this ridged (1 1/4") sump pump hose is just creating a lot of turbulence. Still -- I would think that the lack of elbows would help. It certainly has made the drains quieter, I think.

-Zeke
__________________
180g FW CA/SA build w/ 75gal sump + FX5 
2 severums, firemouth, salvini, 2 Honduran red pt, ebjd, 4 syn. nigriventris, 3 albino BN plecos
30g oceanic cube - amano shrimp + guppies. 
75g Oceanic tank w/ built-in overflow + 20g sump -- idle
pump is underperforming badly or this ridged (1 1/4") sump pump hose is just creating a lot of turbulence. There's also zero elbows. Every fitting is a 1 1/4" barb fitting.
-Zeke


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## zwanged

pointing towards the surface helped! Duhh..i feel dumb.

Still some noise from the left overflow. getting there...

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> Ya my locklines are the same but I don't have any bubbles(maybe I'm not pushing enough).Try pointing returns more towards surface so the bubbles don't cause trouble.
> Try putting tape over the hole and see if they go away.
> I always keep one of my lock lines very close to surface if not breaking it as a syphon safety of my own.


----------



## zwanged

Picked up a 5-6" Rotkeil severum today.

Will post pics soon!

Has some ich (caught early) and some secondary bacterial infections, treating him in 10gal QT at higher temperatures (86F) and with QuickCure until healed. 

-Zeke


----------



## coralbandit

zwanged said:


> I tested the flow rate of the return pump through the plumbing. It is approx 1500GPH (50 gal in 3 mins).
> 
> .


Math error as 50g x20=1000g per hour.
So if that was all out we really should be able to work out why the durso is slowing down flow?
it's about 1050GPH roughly. So either the pump is underperforming badly or this ridged (1 1/4") sump pump hose is just creating a lot of turbulence. Still -- I would think that the lack of elbows would help. It certainly has made the drains quieter, I think.
Are you still returning with rigid pvc(I would think that is best up to where the reductions are needed.


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## zwanged

wasn't a math error. just a typo. 1050gph is what I meant!

I think ill just stick with the flex for now.

zeke


----------



## coralbandit

Are you returning with flex,or pvc?
And who has ich,this time ?Existing fish or new one?


----------



## zwanged

Existing fish are doing just fine.

The fish that has ich is the New Rotkeil severum I bought last ight. He was slightly sick in the store (a small amount of ich and some secondary bacterial infections on the fins) so I just put him straight into 10gal QT w/ quickcure + raised temp gradually to 85 degrees. It's convenient to have that 75gal sump down there in the basement -- e.g. for stealing water for setting up a QT tank.

I'm just sticking to the flexible sump pump hose. I might try upgrading this later, but seems 'good enough' for now. I'm 'plumbed out' . Maybe down the road I'll try the spa flex hose or flex pvc.

Btw I bet i'm getting crappy return flow more because of the 1 1/4" T barb fitting...that seems like quite a bit of flow restriction now that I think about it.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Are you returning with flex,or pvc?
> And who has ich,this time ?Existing fish or new one?


----------



## coralbandit

I would think the 1 1/4 T is fine.I T'd my 1 inch pvc and then reduced to 1 inch reinforced flex hose.I really dig the reinforced flex hose as it resist kinking and restricting flow.
If you pulled the durso how high can you let the pump run(100%?).My durso is quieter than the water running in the flexible sump pump hose.I hear it moving over the ridges, but my durso is silent(again I may not be pushing as much as you with a mag 24 and everything slows down or settles in after a break in period).
It is very handy have the filter in basement and does make QT and breeder tanks around it more "accesssible" as you'll be down there a little more often now anyways.


----------



## zwanged

If i pull the entire durso assembly the water level in the overflow is like 1 inch, same as yours. My hose isn't reinforced type. And I did manage to kink a tiny bit of it when I was working with it. 

Is 1050 gph too little? Remember, I still have an FX5 on the tank...Also I hear from some people (googling around on this) that sumps could more effective with lower flow rates as it gives the water more time to be in contact with the media?

-Zeke




coralbandit said:


> I would think the 1 1/4 T is fine.I T'd my 1 inch pvc and then reduced to 1 inch reinforced flex hose.I really dig the reinforced flex hose as it resist kinking and restricting flow.
> If you pulled the durso how high can you let the pump run(100%?).My durso is quieter than the water running in the flexible sump pump hose.I hear it moving over the ridges, but my durso is silent(again I may not be pushing as much as you with a mag 24 and everything slows down or settles in after a break in period).
> It is very handy have the filter in basement and does make QT and breeder tanks around it more "accesssible" as you'll be down there a little more often now anyways.


----------



## coralbandit

Sump can run at just about any speed.Too slow or too fast will lessen the effect of filter but either of those would have to be extremes.
What I'm trying to figure out is how fast can you run the pump with the durso out?
Can you crank your pump up to 100% without the durso,and not fill up the overflow?If you can than we need to figure a modification for durso.


----------



## zwanged

Yes I can crank it up 100% with durso out. The overflow water level does not go over 1 inch from the bottom of the overflow box if i remove the whole durso assembly. So the drains have absolutely no trouble keeping up with the returns. Do you think I need to shrink the hole size at the top of each durso (I had enlarged it to 1/4", probably a mistake!?) 

My gut tells me I might even need to shrink that hole beyond what the original size was. Seems tricky to get the proper balance...

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Sump can run at just about any speed.Too slow or too fast will lessen the effect of filter but either of those would have to be extremes.
> What I'm trying to figure out is how fast can you run the pump with the durso out?
> Can you crank your pump up to 100% without the durso,and not fill up the overflow?If you can than we need to figure a modification for durso.


----------



## zwanged

Here's a picture of the rotkeil severum in the QT tank...looking a little pale right now but hope he makes a full recovery.










Note the larger white spots around the tail, anal fin, side of mouth. is that too big to be ich? or is that secondary bacterial infection?

There's also definitely a few ich spots on the body.

I'm treating him with quickcure and hope things clear up.

Quick question: is the damage on the lower part of the tail fin permanent? is that scarring?

-Zeke


----------



## zwanged

This ich is really stubborn! I still see some spots that were there on Friday night! At 86F I would have thought that the trophont would've fallen off by now....I also see a few new spots. Also the larger white spots on the tail (are those ich or secondary infection) haven't fallen off yet...

Any tips? Should I just be patient and keep treating w/ quickcure? Tonight will be day 4. I don't think the meds are going to be all that useful until the freakin trophont falls off the body!

So far my treatment schedule in the 10gal Quarantine tank has been: 

Friday night: Raise tank temp to 86F to speed lifecycle, Full dose QuickCure
Saturday night: Full dose QuickCure
Sunday night: Full Dose QuickCure
Monday night: 30% WC, Full Dose QuickCure

Maybe I should put a beefier filter on this tank...there's not a lot of flow from the crappy filter. maybe increased water flow will help 'knock' the trophonts off?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Stick with meds and you probly don't need a stronger filter,as most qt/hosp. tanks run on air driven sponges.
The spots on tail may be something different and not necessarily a disease,but more actually in the tail on it's viens.
Make sure he is eating good as him being strong is important.
You won't kill ich till it falls off so after another 4-7 days if it doesn't fall off it may not be ich.


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## zwanged

Yeah I'm just surprised it's taking so damn long to fall off. Guess I need to be more patient 

Do you think coppersafe is a better ich med than quickcure, for tough fish like cichlids? 

The severum's still eating well and plenty energetic. But I'm sure he wants to be king of the 180gal as soon as possible .

Do you think the unevenness on the tail veins is permanent scarring from previous fin damage? 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Stick with meds and you probly don't need a stronger filter,as most qt/hosp. tanks run on air driven sponges.
> The spots on tail may be something different and not necessarily a disease,but more actually in the tail on it's viens.
> Make sure he is eating good as him being strong is important.
> You won't kill ich till it falls off so after another 4-7 days if it doesn't fall off it may not be ich.


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## coralbandit

I've had very good results with kordon rid ich plus on my freshwater tanks but it has no strength on my salt(I am using copper in my 120 fowlr right now,and it is super easy).
His tail may just be the way it grew in or from previous boughts with disease.I have several swordtails with unusaull viening but no disease.
Is the quick cure colored(blue)? if so you should at least see some blue for half the day after dosing.


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## zwanged

yep.

ridich and quickcure are very similar. malachite green + formalin mixture. Though I've heard rid-ich is a bit stronger?

-Zeke





coralbandit said:


> I've had very good results with kordon rid ich plus on my freshwater tanks but it has no strength on my salt(I am using copper in my 120 fowlr right now,and it is super easy).
> His tail may just be the way it grew in or from previous boughts with disease.I have several swordtails with unusaull viening but no disease.
> Is the quick cure colored(blue)? if so you should at least see some blue for half the day after dosing.


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## coralbandit

I've dosed up to 3 times recommended amount with out issue.I'd say double up on next dose.Water should show some color for at least half a day,if not more.


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## zwanged

Good to know -- but I feel like the problem is the ich is still on the body, so even higher doses won't help. I feel like the battle won't be won until the ich actually falls off and gets killed by the meds + temperature.

In theory -- the high temp of 86F alone should just kill the ich once it enters the theront stage -- unless it happens to be a temperature-resistant strain. 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I've dosed up to 3 times recommended amount with out issue.I'd say double up on next dose.Water should show some color for at least half a day,if not more.


----------



## zwanged

Update: ich still there as of this morning. but it might look a slightly more raised than it was...so...progress??

Could also just be my imagination  Tonight will be the day 5 mark.


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## zwanged

STILL white spots on the body. One did disappear though. The ones on the head between the eyes are finally starting to stick out, hopefully will fall off soon....

Surprised how long this is taking to play out!

This is the THIRD 3-day round of treatment. Did a 75% WC before dosing quickcure again.

Is it safe to dose Melafix simultaneously with quickcure (he does have some fin damage and body damage) or bad idea? I was thinking I'd just wait until I clear out the ich first, but if there's no interaction then I'd prefer to start Melafix sooner...Also is it worth getting Pimafix? I hear those treatments are often used together. 

Though I see some websites say those Melafix and Pimafix meds are snake oil and only effective on certain bacteria...

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

I would stick with one treatment at a time.
I personally will never purchase any of the fixes.They are oil,the question is what kind?They say TTE(tea tree extract),but that is not really what they are and others claim they have clove oil(used to kill fish)! Either way they are dangerous for some fish and this site has a good link on it(search melafix).
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/use...x-labyrinth-organ-2363.html?highlight=melafix


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## zwanged

Obviously I'm not concerned because severums don't have labyrinth organs. But that's an interesting read.

I doubt I'd use Pimafix based on what I've read, but it seems Melafix could still have its uses -- if used properly.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

I'll NEVER!Most skin "conditions"(not disease) can be cured with water changes.The "stuff" on his tail likely will not go away.The ichs comming to surface and falling are a message to the attentive keeper to "Keep your med levels up".Now is the time(as you know) to KILL them!


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## zwanged

Yep. Still is taking a long time for this stuff to fall off, but now it finally is....

first round of treatment: may 3,4,5
second round of treatment: may 6,7,8
third round of treatment: may 9,10,11
4th round of treatment: may 12, 13, 14

So we're in the middle of the 4th round. I've been doing 50% WC's in between treatments. 

My temp's about 87-88 too. Only like 3 spots left as of this morning. -- but it's amazing how long it took some of them to manifest themselves! Literally saw some new ones appear a few days ago.

I think this will be well worth it-- hopefully by treating this 10gal, I won't have to treat the entire 180!

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I'll NEVER!Most skin "conditions"(not disease) can be cured with water changes.The "stuff" on his tail likely will not go away.The ichs comming to surface and falling are a message to the attentive keeper to "Keep your med levels up".Now is the time(as you know) to KILL them!


----------



## coralbandit

Hows the 180 doing?Are you getting used to it,or still have things you'd like to correct or make better(quieter)?


----------



## zwanged

It's mostly good. 

I was able to reduce some of the noise on the left overflow by taping over one of the side holes on the durso assembly with electrical tape. Hopefully that'll hold up.

Waiting for the rotkeil severum to heal up before adding him to the 180. I think by end of this week he'll be all set to add...

My biggest complaint about the 180 is about the same as the 75...it's damn near impossible to catch anything. The extra height and depth is as much a curse as it is a blessing.

For example, my two female honduran red points (which are not getting along well) -- have constant fin damage and are starting to show signs of infection at damaged sites. I think i'm gonna have to catch one and give it away... I hate to see them (esp the bullied one) constantly stressed and unable to heal up.

Do i need to devise a trap or something? this is a very hard fish to net.

This tank's definitely way harder to work with than the 75. The canopy in particular is a giant pain.

My biggest gripe is with the quality of the stand/canopy The canopy has a lot of rough and sharp edges and seems mediocre in quality. It is complete crap compared to my old oceanic canopy.

Should've gone homemade or waited 8 weeks for the marineland monterey instead of the J&R aquatics. Oh well..there's always the next tank...

-Zeke


----------



## coralbandit

Yah! Catching anything is an evening to be planned and prepared for.When I (finally ) decided to catch all the krib babies(not so small& like 80) I had to remove everything(not so easy with canopies) and lowered my water 1/2 way down.Sometimes it seems like the fish that last the longest are the ones you wish you could get out of the tank.I have become very careful of what goes in the 180 and will quickly choose a fish for a different tank if possible(who knows who will live longer than my clown loaches 8+ years,but if I don't like them or they get don't get along it really is a painful labor{a well planned evening} to get them out!)
I feel your pain on workmanship of premade stands and hoods and besides steel, will never purchase one again.It helps being handy and having all sorts of tools too.
Hope your fish get better,try figuring out some sorta of semi auto water changer(a pump out of filter to drain,and pre treated warmed water) so you can easily change large volumes as I really think this is a great part of my sucess.I changed 150 gallons in the last 3 days(piece of cake)!I don't vacum the 180 as very little ever accumulates in tank and filter drip drawers(6) really catch a ton of crap(cleanning every 2 weeks at least).


----------



## zwanged

Waste is accumulating in the back center of the tank below the FX5 intake. But the rest of the substrate looks fairly clear.

I have my old mag9.5 set up as a drain pump. so i just push a button (or use my remote) to pump out 65gallons of water out of sump. I then just turn on the tap which is connected to a hose which leads into the sump tank to fill water. then add prime, and let my circulation pump do the mixing. 

65 gal water change takes me about 25-30 minutes (10 mins to drain, 15 minutes to refill) I do the temperature by feel. and it's only 25% so the temperature impact is minimal even if i'm off by quite a bit.

I do have a few 50gal trash cans which I could use to prep water more precisely but honestly haven't seen the need to yet. Perhaps if i get more tanks (*wife permitting*) then it'll be worth it to me.

But for now this 1 tank (+hospital tank) is keeping me plenty busy! 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Yah! Catching anything is an evening to be planned and prepared for.When I (finally ) decided to catch all the krib babies(not so small& like 80) I had to remove everything(not so easy with canopies) and lowered my water 1/2 way down.Sometimes it seems like the fish that last the longest are the ones you wish you could get out of the tank.I have become very careful of what goes in the 180 and will quickly choose a fish for a different tank if possible(who knows who will live longer than my clown loaches 8+ years,but if I don't like them or they get don't get along it really is a painful labor{a well planned evening} to get them out!)
> I feel your pain on workmanship of premade stands and hoods and besides steel, will never purchase one again.It helps being handy and having all sorts of tools too.
> Hope your fish get better,try figuring out some sorta of semi auto water changer(a pump out of filter to drain,and pre treated warmed water) so you can easily change large volumes as I really think this is a great part of my sucess.I changed 150 gallons in the last 3 days(piece of cake)!I don't vacum the 180 as very little ever accumulates in tank and filter drip drawers(6) really catch a ton of crap(cleanning every 2 weeks at least).


----------



## zwanged

Still 5 or 6 spots left....

On round 5 of quick cure...

will it ever end?? 

-zeke


----------



## coralbandit

coralbandit said:


> I've dosed up to 3 times recommended amount with out issue.I'd say double up on next dose.Water should show some color for at least half a day,if not more.


I would at least attempt doubling the recommended dose.2 weeks for that fish in a 10 is going to be stressful and the true death of him.
Rid ich is dosed everyday during treatment,so if this is only the fifth time you've administered meds(in 2 weeks) I would either start applying daily doses (at recommended levels),or go right to double or triple dose(do double first).


----------



## zwanged

I think you're misunderstanding my treatment regimen.

I'm doing full doses of quickcure *daily* for 3 days in a row. at the end of each 3rd day, i do a 50% water change and dose quickcure daily (full dose) for another 3 days (so 3 doses total over 3 days) etc. And now I'm on my *5th* 3 day round. 

The instructions are a bit different. they say to treat full dose daily for 3 days, do 25% water change, then repeat for another 3 days if desired. but 2 rounds has obviously nowhere near enough in this case.

Do these meds have any efficacy, though, when the ich is still on the body? I thought they would only be effective if the ich falls *off* ?

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> I would at least attempt doubling the recommended dose.2 weeks for that fish in a 10 is going to be stressful and the true death of him.
> Rid ich is dosed everyday during treatment,so if this is only the fifth time you've administered meds(in 2 weeks) I would either start applying daily doses (at recommended levels),or go right to double or triple dose(do double first).


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## coralbandit

My bad!I would still consider upping the dose or switching to different med.See if anyone around you carries straight formulin.


----------



## zwanged

I'm thinking about coppersafe. But it is again only effective when the ich falls off. My problem is mainly that ich is taking a long time to fall off...

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

The coppersafe seems to have been effective in my saltwater tank(different species of ich),but again I ended up going with higher amount than directions.
Nothing good to be said for copper(as with all meds),but the good side is that you can get copper test kit and verify your levels.That's how I know I'm a little above recommended dose ,but do truly know where I'm at.


----------



## zwanged

Started doubling the daily quickcure dose as of 2 days ago. Still 7-8 spots left... tank temp 88F.

This is one tough ich strain!

-Zeke


----------



## zwanged

Ok I'm ditching this 10gal QT tank idea + meds strategy. Though I do think some of the elongated spots on the fins may not actually be ich but rather lymphocystis. But I still do see small white spots on the body which *do* look exactly like ich. And I saw a few more today. Meds aren't working, even after doubling the dose for several days.

Moved the rotkeil severum to the empty 75 gallon tank which I revived a few days ago. I agree with you that the 10gal is just too stressful on the fish for sustained periods of time. I am trying the pure heat method now. Set my aqueon pro heater as high as it would go (88) but actual tank temp may well be higher as I think this heater is a bit off  Right now the temp is 88 but heater is running. Keeping an eye on temperature as it slowly rises. I think I'll try keeping the temps in the low 90s if possible. Hope this clears up soon!

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Watch temp closely (as I know you will).The 75 is a tough tank to use "conventional" meds in so I would look into the coppersafe if you need it.1ml.per10 gallons means the bottle could dose you for many ,many times.I haven't even come close to using 1/2 of the bottle in my 120 salt (which gets 2x as much as fresh water)with double dosing on third round(not even mentioned in directions{2 doses are the directions for 2 weeks}).


----------



## zwanged

Yeah if temp doesn't work I'm gonna resort to coppersafe. with added bonus of killing all the snails in my sump... Btw i do happen to randomly have a copper test kit so I'll test my water tomorrow.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Watch temp closely (as I know you will).The 75 is a tough tank to use "conventional" meds in so I would look into the coppersafe if you need it.1ml.per10 gallons means the bottle could dose you for many ,many times.I haven't even come close to using 1/2 in my 120 with double dosing on third round(not even mentioned in directions{2 doses are the directions for 2 weeks}).


----------



## coralbandit

Usaully all against copper,but using it myself I'll say that the best part is knowing(be able too) the level that your meds are at is unlike any other(never found a formulin,malachlite green test kit{didn't really look either}).With the test kit you can actively monitor your med levels and know if you're up to snuff or have disapation issues(common with the ich meds).


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## zwanged

Tank temp is stable 92 now with aqueon pro heater maxed out at 88. Go figure...

Is it normal for appetite to be suppressed at these temperatures? He's not very interested in the food but is still energetic and swimming around quite a bit. Don't see any new spots but old spots aren't gone yet. I guess I'll give it a few days like this, and if the spots go away, wait a few days and drop temperature down to 82 after that, then introduce to the main 180gal tank (which is about 82-84 right now).

Btw he's pretty hard to net. Very strong and scraped himself up a bit when I transfered him from QT to the 75. If my net's only slightly bigger than him, does this mean i need a bigger net?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Might want to remove any large rocks from tank before you go "fishing "again!Big fish are no easier to net and will bend the handles of common nets like twist ties(had 12-18 inch fish in my 135 for years and hated having to catch any of them{always got wet,along with the walls and floor}).Keep an eye on your guy with temps up where you got them (really pushing{but I know why}).If the spots don't go away maybe it isn't ich?You certainly have been at him for some time now so odd as it sounds and looks ?
Check in with this guy about TSS for me will ya?http://www.aquariumforum.com/f4/advise-stocking-my-sons-10-gallon-43817.html


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## zwanged

The larger spots on the dorsal fin I think are NOT ich. they are more elongated. I think that is lymphocystis. My blue acara had it (but ended up returning him anyway).

That said, there are still smaller saltlike spots that appeared on the body a few days ago, those definitely look like ich. I'll monitor him for a few days and if the current body spots clear up then I'll consider it clean.

Btw I think i know why he might not be interested in algae wafers as much this evening. The tank had some pest snails lurking in it and after observing him for a while, he seemed very interested in hunting them down...

Responding to that TSS post now. Thanks!

-Zeke





coralbandit said:


> Might want to remove any large rocks from tank before you go "fishing "again!Big fish are no easier to net and will bend the handles of common nets like twist ties(had 12-18 inch fish in my 135 for years and hated having to catch any of them{always got wet,along with the walls and floor}).Keep an eye on your guy with temps up where you got them (really pushing{but I know why}).If the spots don't go away maybe it isn't ich?You certainly have been at him for some time now so odd as it sounds and looks ?
> Check in with this guy about TSS for me will ya?http://www.aquariumforum.com/f4/advise-stocking-my-sons-10-gallon-43817.html


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## zwanged

Don't have any large rocks in the 75. just some small rocks and a flowerpot cave to make him feel a bit more secure 

Checked in with the guy on TSS. Will see what he plans to do.

What other diseases could cause white spots on the body if not ich? it looks like salt-grain like cysts to me. Though I do think the dorsal fin has a little lymphocystis and not ich.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Might want to remove any large rocks from tank before you go "fishing "again!Big fish are no easier to net and will bend the handles of common nets like twist ties(had 12-18 inch fish in my 135 for years and hated having to catch any of them{always got wet,along with the walls and floor}).Keep an eye on your guy with temps up where you got them (really pushing{but I know why}).If the spots don't go away maybe it isn't ich?You certainly have been at him for some time now so odd as it sounds and looks ?
> Check in with this guy about TSS for me will ya?http://www.aquariumforum.com/f4/advise-stocking-my-sons-10-gallon-43817.html


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## zwanged

This morning -- the rotkeil severum in the 75 (by himself) wasn't interested in anything i tried to feed it. algae wafers soaked in garlic, choppped shrimp, nothing worked.

Do you think the tank temp of 92F the likely cause of loss of appetite? I did test the water yesterday and params seemed OK. And it has used filter pads in the sump.

pH 7.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0

I'm wondering if I should just assume these white spots are NOT ich, transition the tank temp back down to mid 80s, and just bite the bullet and put him in the 180 and hope for the best. But if it does turn out to be ich, i'll likely have to deal with a giant ich problem in the 180 and have to dose coppersafe to that tank.

Ugh.


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## coralbandit

Lower temp to mid 80"s and go for coppersafe for a week,before risking the 180.You definately want to see him eat as he is getting weaker if he doesn't.As far as what else could it be?But you've treated the living h*** out of his hosp tank and to see no great improvement,only makes me question it could be something else or maybe nothing?


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## zwanged

That approach makes sense. I'll give that a try. Will keep you posted!

Thanks,
-Zeke




coralbandit said:


> Lower temp to mid 80"s and go for coppersafe for a week,before risking the 180.You definately want to see him eat as he is getting weaker if he doesn't.As far as what else could it be?But you've treated the living h*** out of his hosp tank and to see no great improvement,only makes me question it could be something else or maybe nothing?


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## zwanged

Well...it's been 5 days since I started dosing the rotkeil severum with full dose of coppersafe in the 75. Haven't done any water changes since.

Still a few spots on the body, not sure if it's ich or not. Some small elongated spots (1mm length) on the fins, perhaps those are lymphocystis? Not sure. Temp is 86 and the severum's appetite is back. Also still some white areas on the pectoral fins. I guess that's some leftover secondary bacterial infection that still hasn't cleared up yet.

I'm wondering how long I should keep him in the 75 at this point...I'm not convinced the problem is going to go away any time soon..? Also, for what it's worth, my pest snails in that tank appear immune to the coppersafe...at least so far.

I'll wait a few more days to see if the alleged trophonts indeed fall off.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

The good news is the overflows are circulating water quite well around the tank. The bad news is that waste is accumulating in the back middle of the tank, on the sand, under the FX5 intake. Should I add some a powerhead or two to circulate water in that dead zone in the back? The FX5 intake , centered between the overflows, is about 3 inches above the substrate. 

I was thinking either a koralia 750 or a koralia nano 425 would do the trick. But not really sure how i would position it....

But then i'm worried this flow might just cause waste to accumulate somewhere else 

I think this just means I hate vacuuming in a 24" deep tank and am trying to make my life easier.

Thoughts? 

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Also, still waiting for rotkeil to clear up w/ the coppersafe.  still a few spots.


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## coralbandit

I use regular powerhead in my middle section(don't always use it but it always there).I have a hagen (aquaclear)50 powerhead on top and bottom of quick filter with no material in it (just cage to protect fish)Amazon.com: AquaClear Quick Filter Powerhead Attachment (fits all sizes AquaClear Powerheads): Pet Supplies
I turn it on every now and then and it definately stirs crap up to be drawn in to overflows.


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## zwanged

Good idea. I can put a powerhead on a remote controlled outlet to stir up the crap 

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> I use regular powerhead in my middle section(don't always use it but it always there).I have a hagen (aquaclear)50 powerhead on top and bottom of quick filter with no material in it (just cage to protect fish)Amazon.com: AquaClear Quick Filter Powerhead Attachment (fits all sizes AquaClear Powerheads): Pet Supplies
> I turn it on every now and then and it definately stirs crap up to be drawn in to overflows.


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## coralbandit

The powerhead works better IMO than hydors(Ilove them in my salts) as I can point it any way I want.I have mine pointing from one overflow to the other(sideways in tank),and much like you mentioned it would be impossible to aim a hydor like that as they have to be used with the magnet suction cup(they are still great and I prefer them in the right application),but with the quick filter cage ,it holds the power head to be pointed however I want(straight across back of tank between overflows).I'll add that the filters that go in them can't be beat for polishing water but are tough to clean.


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## zwanged

So aquaclear 50 powerhead with quick filter cage? i'll try that -- pointing it between the overflows, across the bottom and just run it occassionally as needed. Or should i go with an aquaclear 70 powerhead? not sure how powerful they are. 

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> The powerhead works better IMO than hydors(Ilove them in my salts) as I can point it any way I want.I have mine pointing from one overflow to the other(sideways in tank),and much like you mentioned it would be impossible to aim a hydor like that as they have to be used with the magnet suction cup(they are still great and I prefer them in the right application),but with the quick filter cage ,it holds the power head to be pointed however I want(straight across back of tank between overflows).I'll add that the filters that go in them can't be beat for polishing water but are tough to clean.


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## coralbandit

The 50 is not brutal but can kick up sand if it flows close.I would geuss that rating the 70 it only flows "x" more but may seem 2x as powerful.With the cartridge in the quick filter it will slow as the media clogs.The filter comes with one and the right store will sell 3 for under $9, but I don't use them very often.They are good for "spring cleaning" or occasional use but if used 24/7 they may need weekly cleaning.I just put another 50 and the cage in my 75 sword grow out ,just for increased flow,but also use one in same tank on LARGE sponge filter(instead of air) and it is the bomb.Nothing settles in 75 with 200 swords from small to adult,it all goes in the sponge!If I didn't use white bucket(and see the discoloration of water) for water changes I might think I didn't even need them!But it is easy to see the tinge in a white bucket.And squeezing out the sponge in the bucket turns the water BLACK!
Search and see,I think they even sell them as a combo of powerhead and quick filter together(might be a little cheaper.)


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## zwanged

Still about 8 white spots on the rotkeil severum's fins and body. It's been 10 days since he's been on copper at 86F tank temperature. Could be some other parasite? He's eating well and otherwise seems fine. This is getting ridiculous....Nothing seems to work 

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Seems brutal!I really know of nothing(parasite) that will survive the copper.One of my salt fish in his own tank now just got spots back,but with the introduction of copper he clears up in 3-4 days(the life span of marine ich is like 11 months!)Ican't say throw him in the 180 couse it's not my fish or tank(and my copper(seachem coppersafe) says 14 days of treatment(which could be minimum under ideal circumstances?) but I feel your pain.


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## zwanged

I'm using Mardel coppersafe. Guess i'll just keep a close eye on him over the next week. I might just end up putting him in the 180 and hoping for the best.

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> Seems brutal!I really know of nothing(parasite) that will survive the copper.One of my salt fish in his own tank now just got spots back,but with the introduction of copper he clears up in 3-4 days(the life span of marine ich is like 11 months!)Ican't say throw him in the 180 couse it's not my fish or tank(and my copper(seachem coppersafe) says 14 days of treatment(which could be minimum under ideal circumstances?) but I feel your pain.


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## zwanged

Still no change after 2 weeks. I don't understand how ich could possibly survive everything I put this poor fish through:

2 weeks of quickcure, with double dosing in the last several days. temps 86-90F
2 weeks of coppersafe, temps 86-90F

I bit the bullet and moved the rotkeil to the 180 despite still seeing a few spots. The bigger severum(which is about 1/2 the size of the rotkeil) is chasing it around a bit but I think the tables will turn once he gets settled.

I'll do a water change or two and vacuum the substrate well over the next few days, just in case it is ich. If I do end up with an ich outbreak, I'll treat the 180 with coppersafe, though I hope it doesn't come down to that.

Will be watching the other fish (as well as the rotkeil severum) closely for any signs of illness.

-Zeke


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## zwanged

Update on main 180:

the electric blue jack dempsey appears to have popeye on one eye. I checked my water parameters and found the nitrates to be high (~30ppm). I did a few partial water changes and nitrates are now down to about 7ppm. pH is 7, nitrites and ammonia are 0.

I think the poor water quality (high nitrates) is due to insufficient water changes / overfeeding. 

A weekly 30% change appears not to be enough. I will definitely cut back feeding and change water bi-weekly when possible.

Do I need to medicate the jack dempsey (e.g. w/ Maracyn?) He's going to be very hard to catch as he is still quite small and my tank is pretty heavily decorated.....

-Zeke


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## coralbandit

Aquarium Fish Disease Pop-eye - Exophthalmia
Popeye in Fish
The first link will explain that if it is only 1 eye on 1 fish it could possibly be due to injury.In time it could heal itself.Aquarium salt is their advice.
The second link leans more towards water problems being the cause and recommends epsom salts(totaly different than aquarium,or uniodised salt).
Often popeye is a symptom of something bacterial so the thought of maracyn1 or 2 is also appropriate.
I don't think 30 for nitrates is very high(I'll bet my 180 is higher most of the time).Making sure you don't overfeed and changing more water surely can't hurt and may well do the trick for you.
The salts(either ) are a decent idea also as they truly aide in osmoregulation and if the eye is really popped out then there is a fluid build up behind the eye.
If you don't want to remove him I would choose a salt and give it a try in the 180.Uniodised table salt is basically the same as aquarium salt and probly the cheapeast.1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.Salt never evaporates so you only need to replace what is removed with water changes, and then change out all water(over time)without adding anymore to get it out of your tank.
Good luck,nice to hear from ya,sorry about the topic!


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## zwanged

Thanks for the info, i'll give the aquarium salt a try. 

-zeke



coralbandit said:


> Aquarium Fish Disease Pop-eye - Exophthalmia
> Popeye in Fish
> The first link will explain that if it is only 1 eye on 1 fish it could possibly be due to injury.In time it could heal itself.Aquarium salt is their advice.
> The second link leans more towards water problems being the cause and recommends epsom salts(totaly different than aquarium,or uniodised salt).
> Often popeye is a symptom of something bacterial so the thought of maracyn1 or 2 is also appropriate.
> I don't think 30 for nitrates is very high(I'll bet my 180 is higher most of the time).Making sure you don't overfeed and changing more water surely can't hurt and may well do the trick for you.
> The salts(either ) are a decent idea also as they truly aide in osmoregulation and if the eye is really popped out then there is a fluid build up behind the eye.
> If you don't want to remove him I would choose a salt and give it a try in the 180.Uniodised table salt is basically the same as aquarium salt and probly the cheapeast.1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.Salt never evaporates so you only need to replace what is removed with water changes, and then change out all water(over time)without adding anymore to get it out of your tank.
> Good luck,nice to hear from ya,sorry about the topic!


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## zwanged

The jack dempsey's eye looks 100% better. Thanks!

-zeke


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## zwanged

Here's a new picture of the electric blue jack dempsey (who's in the 75 with the 2 severums). eye has healed.


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## zwanged

I was tired of how dark my 180 looked. The dark substrate + dark background was too damn dark. The tank also had a lot more glare due to lack of light on the inside.

I bit the bullet today and swapped out the substrate, with fish in. Old substrate was 200 pounds of black diamond blasting sand (20-40 grit). New substrate is pool filter sand. 

All fish seem fine. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all tested fine after putting in new sand...miraculously.

Here are some pics:

Before (note the glare!):



Cloudy water pics:








AFTER:





Now I gotta figure out what to do with 200 pounds of wet black blasting sand in a trash can in my garage...lol

-Zeke


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## lonedove55

LOL...I bet that was a very time consuming job! I think it looks great with the white sand, actually maybe better than the black...everything seems to show up better for some reason. Maybe the glare won't be as bad. I would still watch parameters though, as you've probably removed a lot of the good bacteria along with the sand.


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## lonedove55

P.S. You *did* manage to get that huge piece of driftwood in there! I see where it didn't quite fit the height of the tank though.







Why not just trim that piece off?


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## coralbandit

Looking good!
Your levels should stay fine as your bio is in filter and you have plenty of that.Still monitor them for a while to be safe.
Save the sand for winter(traction)!


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## jrman83

Very nice improvement, although I liked it before


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## zwanged

Thanks!

Yeah -- I think the optics are just a heck of a lot better, given my minimal LED lighting (two Aqueon modular LED fixtures). The glare on the glass was much more severe with the black substrate.

-Zeke



jrman83 said:


> Very nice improvement, although I liked it before


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## zwanged

The driftwood actually *will* fit in the tank, but I literally have it sticking up into the canopy right now because I think it's nice to have some space underneath for the fish to swim. I have that space in the canopy because I ditched the glass lids.

-zeke



lonedove55 said:


> P.S. You *did* manage to get that huge piece of driftwood in there! I see where it didn't quite fit the height of the tank though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just trim that piece off?


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## zwanged

Update: 

Took some new pics/videos of the 180gal last night.

See the album at the following link:

Updated_180g Photos by zwanged | Photobucket

The red severum still is not doing well, he is in the 75gal.

-Zeke


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## uzairgohar68

The main difference between* fingertip towels vs Hand towels*. A Fingertip towel is smaller in size than a hand towel. Both hand towels and fingertip towels are used for drying the hand after some washing up.


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