# something's wrong!



## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok so I've had my 27 gallon hex set up for 2 weeks. I have 6 harlequin rasboras and 3 Juli cats. For plants I have 2 Amazon swords and a wisteria that is growing like crazy.



The fish seemed healthy and swimming around yesterday and this morning before I left for work (around 5:30 AM).

My girlfriend texted me at 7:30 to tell me the rasboras were all hanging out at the top so I assumed low oxygen. She tested the water and left for work. The water tests were 0ppm ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, and 0ppm nitrAte.

I come home on break from work and 5 of the 6 rasboras are still at the top so I did a 30-40% water change (yes treated the water) and added an air line to start oxygenating the water.

About 10 mins later 1 rasbora goes missing and another goes into the wysteria and starts gulping and not moving. The one in the wysteria soon dies after I free him. Now I have 1 juli cat in the wysteria lying on it's side and only 3 rasboras swimming around (one swimming on its side).

The tally so far is 1 dead rasbora, 1 partially dead and 1 missing juli cat, and 2 missing raboras. 

The 2 "healthy" rasboras are still hanging out near the surface.

All of this in a matter of hours? What could change the water chem so fast? Could there be an infection or something that would affect the fish so quickly?

I assumed I had plenty of plants to provide enough oxygen. One theory I have is with the 0 nitrates reading could it be possible that the plants are not getting enough macros to metabolize enough CO2 into O2? Should I fertilize perhaps?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

I should also add I do have a HOB filter that cascades and creates some water agitation as well.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

make it 2 dead rasboras and 1 missing still


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

How long was the tank up before you put fish in it? What are you using to test your water, strips or liquid kit?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

API master kit and following directions exactly as written. I have had 0 ammonia, nitrates and nitrites for about a week now. Set the tank up with the plants for a few days and then added the rasboras a couple days later. The highest the ammonia I ever got was .25 and then dropped to 0 the next day. Never had a nitrIte reading above 0. Tested the tank twice per day too.

My girlfriend then added the Julis 8 days later and never had a reading of anything above 0 since they were added.

Edit: I really don't think it was a matter of ammonia or nitrites. The plants have been doing a good job at that.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

At least 1 Juli is acting like nothing ever happened. She's either dumb or tough! 3 dead rasboras and the 2 still swimming around are acting shocked and stressed. They really haven't moved from the surface yet. There is still one MIA rasbora and the 2 other juli's I have a feeling are hiding in the wysteria

I know there is plenty of O2 in there now with that big of a water change and 3 or 4 less guys using it up.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Is there maybe a shiny film on top of the water, sprayed anything in the room (any aerosal), any other fumes in the room? Filter flowing like it should?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Now that you mention it after the bacteria bloom we had, bubbles were floating around the surface for longer than usual. I wonder if anything got in the water.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

With the HOB filter, you and a lightly stocked tank you should be fine with or without plants. With the plants I would think you would be just dandy. That wisteria grows like wildfire, doesn't it? 

Given that, I think you either have a disease or something poisoning the water. Did the dead fish look just fine, or any different? Spots? Gills look red?
I think jrman is asking if there are any of those glade plugins or something similar that diffuses oil into the air. Perhaps it might be a problem (if so, let me know so I can tell my wife she has to move it farther away from our tanks!)


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I suspect some type of toxin got in the tank.

You also might check hardness both kh ang gh.

But an overall sudden bad conditions in a planted tank with 0 across the board sure sound to me like some kind of toxin.

Did you clean the tank.

has a dog been around or some fea treatment been done on the dog that is around.

Did you clean the carpet?

did you just do a water change?

change the filter media?

Those type of things can introduce toxins.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Even after the water change 2 more fish went (1 cat and 1 rasbora)

I'm down to my last rasbora and 1 or 2 more cats.

I have no clue what could have gotten into the tank.

No glade plugins or anything. The only air born things I can think of is we burn scented candles from time to time and the aerosol spray from the bathroom possibly (but that isn't used much and is 20 feet away).

A couple more possibilities:
The new Juli cats (at least one of em) was lethargic and had reddish gils

We changed the water Friday... if it was a toxin that was introduced that day shouldn't it have killed the fish sooner?

Perhaps girlfriend had a lotion or something on her hands? Maybe I had something on my hands?

Our last rasbora is struggling mightily as I type... looks like I'll be starting over.

We were so excited about starting our first tank too and tried to do everything right!

Could disease or parasites kill all the fish within one day?

 back to the drawing board!


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I suspect some type of toxin got in the tank.
> 
> You also might check hardness both kh ang gh.
> 
> ...


No dogs or cats either.

My gh and kh test kit just came in today I'll have to check that.

Didn't clean the tank just changed the water Friday.

No cleaning the carpet but my girlfriend did clean the apartment like crazy Sunday afternoon. Maybe some chemical was floating around the air all day and as it settled over night in the tank it decreased the water quality.

Didn't change the filter media but I will be now!


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

How about tank temp?test that because if you have a heater it may have malfunctioned.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

majerah1 said:


> How about tank temp?test that because if you have a heater it may have malfunctioned.


Thermometer has been a solid 78-80

Just tested the hardness...
kh = 1
gh = 3

Very soft water I take it?


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds most like a toxin to me too, also check water temp, heaters sometimes get stuck on.

EDIT: sorry, missed the bit that was about heaters, sounds like thats not the problem.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

New, uncycled tank. This is bad for a fishy cycle. Too many fish to start with.

You didn't mention your pH. Can you run the gambit of tests and post the results? How were the fish acclimated to your tank? Also, have tested your water from the tap to know what parms you have to work with from the start?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

James0816 said:


> New, uncycled tank. This is bad for a fishy cycle. Too many fish to start with.
> 
> You didn't mention your pH. Can you run the gambit of tests and post the results? How were the fish acclimated to your tank? Also, have tested your water from the tap to know what parms you have to work with from the start?


Well shouldn't it not matter if the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate numbers have all been in check?

I will post the results... just let me throw them into an excel sheet.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Here's all my test results in the attached file.

The tap water is high in chlorine and has a high pH but it is treated before adding to the tank.

It's fairly soft city water.

The good news is that we had a juli cat who came out from hiding in the plants all day yesterday which means theres 1 rasbora and 2 cats still alive.

Aside from the rasbora not wanting to touch the 1/4 flake of food I put in there for him everyone is acting happy and normal today. Hopefully we can salvage this thing.

Should I be doing another water change today?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

I'll try to attach again...

Well don't know if the attachments worked but here is a sloppy copy and paste job.

Date	Time	pH	Ammonia	NitrIte	Nitrate
11/21/2010 7.2	0	0 
11/22/2010	6:00 AM 0.25	0 
11/22/2010	3:50 PM	7.2	0.25	0 
11/22/2010	8:30 PM	7.4	0.25	0	0
11/23/2010	7:45 AM	7.2	0	0 
11/23/2010	6:58 PM	7	0	0 
11/24/2010	5:30 AM	7	0	0	5
11/24/2010	7:30 PM	7.2	0	0	5
11/25/2010	8:45 AM	7	0	0	10
11/25/2010	9:55 PM	7.6	0	0	10
11/26/2010	9:30 AM	7	0	0 
11/26/2010	9:18 PM	7.2	0	0	5
11/27/2010 7	0	0	5
11/27/2010	5:34 PM	6.6	0	0	5
11/28/2010	10:30 AM	6.4	0	0	10
11/28/2010	7:30 PM	6.6	0	0	5
11/29/2010	8:13 PM	6.8	0	0	5
11/30/2010	12:30 PM	6.6	0	0	5
12/1/2010	3:00 PM	6.6	0	0	5
12/2/2010 6.6	0	0	0
12/3/2010 6.6	0	0	0
12/4/2010 6.6	0	0	0
12/5/2010 6.4	0	0	0
12/6/2010 6.6	0	0	0


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Attachment didn't hit. So is that from your tank? what about parms from the tap?

and how did you first acclimate the fish?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> Thermometer has been a solid 78-80
> 
> Just tested the hardness...
> kh = 1
> ...


Yep.

Just saw your post about an added fish having red gills. that could be the problem.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

That is all from the tank

Tap:
pH: 8.4
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate:0

The lfs uses the same tap as me as well and they tested mine and said it was fine.

What do red gils mean?


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Red gills is a sign of ammonia poisoning.

How did you acclimate from them to the tank?


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

How could it be ammonia poisoning with no ammonia readings?


Floated the bag for a half hour then mixed the water and dumped the fish in.

Acclimation shouldn't be an issue 14 days after adding a fish I would think.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

It's a mystery to me too. You've checked everything you can reasonably check and come up fine.

It certainly sounds like something got in the tank but it seems things may be coming around a bit now. If it were me, I would kick up the water change schedule a bit and see how it shakes out.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Just asking questions to get a history. This is a new tank so all this can have a hand in it actually. Not everything happens instantly or over night unfortunately. What kind of maintenance have you done on the tank prior to the water change you just did?

The biggest thing to keep in mind at this point is that this is a freshly set up tank to which you added (9) fish to right off the bat.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

Yeah things do seem much better today... maybe something spiked over night that went away by the time my girlfriend tested it yesterday morning. Hopefully I was able to save what I could with the water change. 

One of the juli cats has 1 red gill so hopefully the 3 remaining tough guys can survive. The water is still reading 0, 0, and 0. Who knows?

I'll be doing a water change every other day this week and see how this plays out. Won't be adding any more fish until after christmas even though the rasbora looks pretty lonely now.

How does everyone do their change step by step?
Maybe I'm missing a step you guys do.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

I use a Python to drain and fill my tank. I make sure the replacement water is a degree or two cooler than the tank water. I use Prime as my water conditioner. I add it directly to the tank and treat for the entire volume of the tank, not just for the replacement water.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

James0816 said:


> Just asking questions to get a history. This is a new tank so all this can have a hand in it actually. Not everything happens instantly or over night unfortunately. What kind of maintenance have you done on the tank prior to the water change you just did?
> 
> The biggest thing to keep in mind at this point is that this is a freshly set up tank to which you added (9) fish to right off the bat.


Understandable... I do appreciate the help you and everyone else is trying to provide me. Thanks!

We were doing routine water changes even if the numbers weren't budging just to be on the safe side. Our plants have done a great job at using up all the ammonia and nitrates. We did have a big bacteria bloom last week but that settled on Sunday.

Our water quality has been very good according to the tests so I don't know what I could have done to prevent it aside from if I got home for lunch a little earlier yesterday.

The only thing I wish I did differently was a water change right after the bloom settled on Sunday.

Who knows... I just hope everything is OK going forward.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

probe1957 said:


> I use a Python to drain and fill my tank. I make sure the replacement water is a degree or two cooler than the tank water. I use Prime as my water conditioner. *I add it directly to the tank and treat for the entire volume of the tank, not just for the replacement water.*


Maybe I should be doing this instead

Edit: Is novaqua+ acceptable? This is what the lfs provided me.
And I treat it before adding it in the tank.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

For water changes I fill the bucket, trying to match water temps. I *** water conditioner to the bucket for just the amount in the bucket (I overshoot a little to be on the safe side). Wait 5 or 10 minutes to let the conditioner do its magic, then pour it in slowly.

When the apartment was cleaned, was any furniture polish or glass cleaner used on/near the tank?

I'd do some PWCs pretty often for a while to try and remove whatever nastyness got in there.

Glad the other fish seem to be well.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

mfgann said:


> For water changes I fill the bucket, trying to match water temps. I *** water conditioner to the bucket for just the amount in the bucket (I overshoot a little to be on the safe side). Wait 5 or 10 minutes to let the conditioner do its magic, then pour it in slowly.
> 
> When the apartment was cleaned, was any furniture polish or glass cleaner used on/near the tank?
> 
> ...


I don't think my girlfriend used and polish or anything... who knows but I'll have to ask her.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

So who knows what happened but whatever it was we still have 3 survivors who swim around nice and happy and are eating again. So things seem to be back to normal.

I'll be doing 25% water changes through Monday so hopefully nothing else bad happens.

Still 0 on Ammonia, NitrIte, and Nitrates but 2 of the 3 cats have had very red gill areas. Unfortunately one of them died but I don't know if these guys are just naturally like this or they have something wrong with them.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

This is my steps for water changes as well as used materials.
2 Five gallon bucket
rigid airline tubing,one straight and one U shaped(acclimation kit)
two three foot lengths of airline,one attached to the straight and one to the U.

I pull the glass lid up,use the straight tubin to hover over the substrate,pulling up any uneaten food or plant matter,or gunk.I dont get it all,as some feeds the plants.After i get up enough,i wedge the rigid tubing between the corner of the tank with my mag float.After i get the bucket about three fourths full(not so full to slosh water but a good amount to freshen the tank.)Then i take my other bucket,fill it with some lukewarm tap(tank water is about 79*)I add the dechlor(start right from walmart,i like this better than anything else,never had any issues with this stuff.I set the bucket on the top of the tank,use my other tubing with the U piece,to siphon the new water into the tank.It adds it slow enough if the temp is off any the fish will not notice.And the siphon is small enough to pull water without stressing the fish.This is the most effective i found to do,as the pythons are a PITA.My fish are very sensitive to anything,so the least i have to invade the better.


EDIT:i was looking up reddining of the gills,and saw mention of copper or zinc.Didnt read through all the posts so excuse this if anyones mentioned it.See if you can get the water tested for heavy metals.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> This is my steps for water changes as well as used materials.
> 2 Five gallon bucket
> rigid airline tubing,one straight and one U shaped(acclimation kit)
> two three foot lengths of airline,one attached to the straight and one to the U.
> ...


Far be it from me to do anything other then speculate.

Red gills to me indicate some kind of irratiation which prevents taking in oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide.

I would seem to me that in addition to such things as ammonia, that high carbon dioxide would (of not cause) worsen that condition.

High carbon dioxide conditions are reflected in a low ph value.

So a low pH (high carbon dioxide) could mean the fish cannot expell carbon dioxide and become stressed or suffocate.

But that's just my .02


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> So a low carbon dioxide could mean the fish cannot expell carbon dioxide and become stressed or suffocate.


I assume you mean high carbon dioxide. :fish10: Just correcting you before someone reads this and hooks up 3 DIY setups to a 10 gal and wipes out their fish.

But they would have some big plants!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> I assume you mean high carbon dioxide. :fish10: Just correcting you before someone reads this and hooks up 3 DIY setups to a 10 gal and wipes out their fish.
> 
> But they would have some big plants!


Yep you're right.

will change.

except in your post where my error is now carved in internet stone. *old dude


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Yep you're right.
> 
> will change.
> 
> except in your post where my error is now carved in internet stone. *old dude


lol not trying to be a grammar nazi just trying to avoid someone killing their entire tank and saying "well beaslbob said the more CO2 the better"


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

aQualung said:


> lol not trying to be a grammar nazi just trying to avoid someone killing their entire tank and saying "well beaslbob said the more CO2 the better"


and you're absolutly correct.


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## aQualung (Oct 20, 2010)

My Cory with the really red gills just died either yesterday or today. I think something was wrong with the cats right from the start as this one had red gills from day 1(maybe even before he entered the tank).

Who knows what was wrong but I'm still giving this tank a couple more weeks before introducing anything new. I hope I don't need to start from scratch again!

We've kept up with the frequent water changes but still looks like I might be losing this battle.


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