# If ammonia could be sold, I'd be rich



## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

OK, I'm about a wit's end. I've had this 10gal tank running for about 2 months now. I know I'm guilty of murder in the first couple of weeks with it running, I did not know anything about "cycling" but I did buy an API master test kit when I bought everything to set it up. After it ran fishless for about a week, readings were at "0" across the board, so off to the fish store I go. I WAY overpopulated it with 6 neon tetra's, 4 zebra danio's and 4 glowtail (or something like that) tetra's. 

Within a couple of days, I had a massive die off..... lesson learned. Since that time, I am down to 1 zebra and 2 of the tetra's that have been bulletproof. My tank has been running the past month or 5 weeks with just those 3 fish and since that time, I'm having to do 50% water changes every other day. On the 2nd day, the ammonia levels are at or just above 4.0ppm. 

Nitrites and nitrates are still 0ppm, so I'm sure it's still cycling, but why the high ammonia in just 2 days ? I'm not over feeding, In fact I'm only feeding every other day and with the tiny little mouths they have, all I'm feeding is about an average of 2 little mouthfuls per fish every other day. 

H - E - L - P me with whatever I'm not doing, or doing wrong !!!!!!


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

What filter are you using and what media do you have in it? Are you cleaning the filter (a big no no when cycling)? How much are your water changes? Are you getting any readings on Nitrites or nitrates? Also, do you have any corpses in your tank that you might have missed?


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

You don't start a cycling process until you add either fish or an ammonia (tends to be either pure ammonia or fish food). Basically what you did was add too many fish at once for your tank, so your bioload skyrocked as soon as you added all your fish. As far as I am aware until beneficial bacteria builds up (this happens when you add ammonia to the tank), the ammonia can't be consumed. Basically ammonia is consumed by nitrites and nitrites are consumed by nitrates. Check your water levels everyday and may I suggest reading up on fishless cycling: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html

Also read up on a cycling with fish: http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html

I would suggest not adding any more fish to your tank until your cycle has completed.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

jbrown5217 said:


> You don't start a cycling process until you add either fish or an ammonia (tends to be either pure ammonia or fish food). Basically what you did was add too many fish at once for your tank, so your bioload skyrocked as soon as you added all your fish. As far as I am aware until beneficial bacteria builds up (this happens when you add ammonia to the tank), the ammonia can't be consumed. Basically ammonia is consumed by nitrites and nitrites are consumed by nitrates. Check your water levels everyday and may I suggest reading up on fishless cycling: http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html
> 
> Also read up on a cycling with fish: New Tank Syndrome
> 
> I would suggest not adding any more fish to your tank until your cycle has completed.


he has had the tank running for 2 months now. he should have nitrites or nitrates in some numbers by now.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

TypeYourTextHere- That's what I'm thinking, the 3 little fish have been in the tank since almost the beginning (2 months now), and still every other day the ammonia levels are 4.0 or higher, "0" on nitrites and nitrates..... 

The second week that I had it set up is when I way over stocked it and lost a bunch of fish, these three have seemed to survive somehow through that die off. At that time, I did change my filter, an Aqueon hang over the back filter. That filter I put at 2 weeks is still in there and that's been the same one for 6 weeks now. No dead corpses in 6 weeks and no over feeding.... I'm clueless. A 50% water change every other day is equaling about 20 gals of fresh water weekly in this 10gal tank.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

rico334 said:


> TypeYourTextHere- That's what I'm thinking, the 3 little fish have been in the tank since almost the beginning (2 months now), and still every other day the ammonia levels are 4.0 or higher, "0" on nitrites and nitrates.....
> 
> The second week that I had it set up is when I way over stocked it and lost a bunch of fish, these three have seemed to survive somehow through that die off. At that time, I did change my filter, an Aqueon hang over the back filter. That filter I put at 2 weeks is still in there and that's been the same one for 6 weeks now. No dead corpses in 6 weeks and no over feeding.... I'm clueless. A 50% water change every other day is equaling about 20 gals of fresh water weekly in this 10gal tank.


I am not terribly familiar with the Aqueon filters but If I recall they are just the one stage filters that have the mesh bags that have carbon inside them.

What I would do if I was in your position is 

1. Remove any decorations you may have and set them aside.
2. Run a net through you gravel or sand depending on what you have to check for dead fish. This will stir up any remaining food as well which will be filtered out via your HOB filter and immediately do a 50% water change.
3. Rinse your filter material in *USED* tank water after about 20 minutes after you stir up the substrate to allow the crap floating around to get sucked up(at least some of it). Do not rub/scrape the filter media, just shake it in the bucket of siphoned tank water. This will help preserve any BB that is on the filter.
4. Refill the tank with dechlorinated water... It just occurred to me, have you been using dechlorinator?
5. Replace the decorations and wait for about 4 hours to check your water levels. This will allow the floating crap to settle and not give you false readings. 

Hopefully this will greatly reduce the amount of ammonia causing material in your tank and allow your fish to continue to make the bio load instead of rotting food or whatever else is in the tank. This may not be the best action to take, but it is what I would personally do to reduce the ammonia in the tank and help start the cycle which appears to have stalled.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, I will definitely work on doing that in the morning. I am using an Aqueon brand declorinator when I do water changes and yes, the filter is a little plastic frame with a small amount of charcoal inside covered in a white spidery webb type material covering. I'll post tomorrow evening how things went with this.


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

TypeYourTextHere said:


> he has had the tank running for 2 months now. he should have nitrites or nitrates in some numbers by now.


He noted that he didn't know much about cycling with fish or fishless cycling, which is why I gave the links. And if you ask me if your ammonia is at 4ppm the cycle hasn't completed yet.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

jbrown5217 said:


> He noted that he didn't know much about cycling with fish or fishless cycling, which is why I gave the links. And if you ask me if your ammonia is at 4ppm the cycle hasn't completed yet.


I was not disputing your statement. I just commented that he should have some form of BB after that long.


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## jbrown5217 (Nov 9, 2011)

TypeYourTextHere said:


> I was not disputing your statement. I just commented that he should have some form of BB after that long.


oh, well then. Yea there should definetly be some sort of BB by now.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Hey let me ask this real quick...... I've got a chunk of petrified wood as a decoration in the tank, could this be the culprit possibly ? Although I have had this same piece of petrified wood for probably 15 years now and it's been in 3 or 4 other aquariums I've owned over the years and not had any problems out of any of them, just searching for cures for this one ?


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

rico334 said:


> Hey let me ask this real quick...... I've got a chunk of petrified wood as a decoration in the tank, could this be the culprit possibly ? Although I have had this same piece of petrified wood for probably 15 years now and it's been in 3 or 4 other aquariums I've owned over the years and not had any problems out of any of them, just searching for cures for this one ?


I honestly don't know the answer to that. If you think it might be the issue then remove it until your tank is stable and finishes cycling. After your tank completes the cycle and is stable for say a week or so then add the piece of petrified wood and check your water daily. If the Ammonia spikes then most likely it is the culprit. Other than that I have no answer.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Okay, thanks.... I'm going to pull everything out of it like you mentioned and stir up the gravel tomorrow, so will keep this piece out and see what happens after doing all that...... Thanks a lot, you've been a lot of help.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, Wow !!! That just took two hours out of a dreary, drizzling 37* day 

I Removed everything from the tank and combed and sifted all the gravel, didn't find anything other than gravel and debris that clouded the water. I was running the filter while doing this and then let it run for another 45 minutes before draining 50% of the tank water. I then removed the filter and sloshed it around in the 50% water that I removed and re-installed it in the HOB, then redecorated with the exception of that piece of petrified wood, then treated and added 50% new water. 

I figure I'll let this run till sometime this evening and will post what the water conditions look like.......


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

rico334 said:


> OK, I'm about a wit's end. I've had this 10gal tank running for about 2 months now. I know I'm guilty of murder in the first couple of weeks with it running, I did not know anything about "cycling" but I did buy an API master test kit when I bought everything to set it up. After it ran fishless for about a week, readings were at "0" across the board, so off to the fish store I go. I WAY overpopulated it with 6 neon tetra's, 4 zebra danio's and 4 glowtail (or something like that) tetra's.
> 
> Within a couple of days, I had a massive die off..... lesson learned. Since that time, I am down to 1 zebra and 2 of the tetra's that have been bulletproof. My tank has been running the past month or 5 weeks with just those 3 fish and since that time, I'm having to do 50% water changes every other day. On the 2nd day, the ammonia levels are at or just above 4.0ppm.
> 
> ...


Add 4-6 bunches of anachris. *old dude*old dude

report back in the morning. 

my .02


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Well it's been 7 hrs since I stripped my tank of decorations and stirred the gravel. Just did a test and friggin ammonia is 2.0 and I'm sure will be higher than that in the morning...... Maybe they should invent different species of little fish that thrive in ammonia laden water..... 

The last thing I can think of is the filter pad that's in it right now has been the same one for almost 7 weeks. It's the same filter that was in there when I had a die off of 6 fish from overstocking too soon. When I did what I did to the tank this morning, the filter was fairly clean and did not have an odor to it. The last thing I can think of is something is in the filter from the die off, but I know changing to a new filter right now will start this process all over again..... I'm banging my head at this point.


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## pH7 (Dec 5, 2011)

It doesn't sound like your filter has much bio capacity. You need triple stage filtration. Get a small canister filter or at least a HOB filter with a bio wheel. Throw in some ceramic rings. If all you have is a filter pad, you aren't providing much of a home for bacteria.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

A new filter system is something I was going to go to PetCo and PetsMart tomorrow and research, but I suppose buying new would mean starting a brand new cycle over right ? Not really worried about that at this point as I'm frustrated to the max with whats going on right now......


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

rico334 said:


> A new filter system is something I was going to go to PetCo and PetsMart tomorrow and research, but I suppose buying new would mean starting a brand new cycle over right ? Not really worried about that at this point as I'm frustrated to the max with whats going on right now......


If you decide to get a new filter then you can. All you need to do is one of two things. Either run both filters for about 2-3 weeks then remove the old filter, or run only the new filter after shoving what ever media that was in the old filter into the new one with the new filter's media(providing there is room)


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

I forgot to add that if you do go with a new filter get a aquaclear 20. Those are rated up to 30 gallons (i think). they are 3 stage filters and I love mine. I just love my fish more and tend to overstock my tank, which is why I am building a DIY sump. 
One other thing to keep in mind is that the lower your water volume is (the smaller the tank) the less forgiving your water will be. You have a ten gallon tank so there is not much room for error with your set up. make absolutely sure that you measure precisely to the drop any chemicals you may use in it. the swings are also far bigger than if you had a 75 gallon.
Do yourself a favor, blast your air pump to its max, turn your HOB filter all the way up kill the lights in your tank and go get something to drink. If by tomorrow night your levels have not dropped some then you can start stressing again, and for the sake of Pete, make sure that you aren't color blind :fish10:


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

LOL on the color blind..... I had a good nights sleep, ready to get this right today, one way or another.... 

I appreciate the recommendation of an Aquaclear 20. I was not going to have any idea as to what to look for at the shops, only the recommendation of sales people who most often don't know much themselves..... Several years ago, we had an independent fish / pet store ran by an older couple. They were a wealth of information when I did the aquarium thing 20-25 years ago and I have no doubt they would have had my problem fixed weeks ago....... Age and Big Box stores put them under sadly......

Ok, off to shop here shortly and will report in later. Oh.... BTW, readings this morning on ammonia are roughly 4.0ppm, up 2.0ppm from yesterdays tank demolition and two 50% water changes in the past 24 hrs with "0" food fed in this time. (Guess my petrified wood is not the culprit).


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Again add lotsa anacharis. And watch the ammonia drop.

my .02


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

beaslbob, I just got back from the local PetsMart and bought a new filter system, the AuquaClear 20 that was both recommended on here and at the store. Actually had pretty informed lady at the lady help me. I did check on the anacharis plants and they were out, did not drive across town to check at PetCo to see if they did, but PetsMart said she should have some in by Wednesday, so I plan on stopping by and getting some of that too.

Now I need to know what the experts say.... 

This new filter came with 3 stages of filtration:
stage 1 (bottom layer) a coarse foam padding filter.
Stage 2 (middle layer) a chemical-activated carbon insert
Stage 3 (top layer) BioMax insert (porous ceramic rings in a bag)

Would you start this new filter with just these filter components that came with the package OR: she sold me a replacement package for Stage 2 (replacing the activated carbon insert with an ammonia removing filter insert) ?


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## pH7 (Dec 5, 2011)

The activated carbon isn't going to help you much right now. I would go with the ammonia removal insert, which is probably just zeolite. It will stop working after a while, but help you out in the short term. It probably won't be able to remove all of your ammonia however, because there isn't enough zeolite in just one small insert to accomplish that. That is a good thing though, because you need some ammonia or else the bacteria have nothing to eat and won't thrive without it


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

That's where I'm stumped right now..... I've done nothing but produce high levels of ammonia for 5 weeks, still as of today showing no elevation in nitrites, therefore no rise in nitrates. 

I am perplexed if I add the ammonia removing filter, my nitrite cycle would not start, but with over the top ammonia levels, it's not going to either......


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

jccaclimber..... It's me again.... I chose to leave out the carbon filter pack and stacked them with the Foam on the bottom, the ammonia removing material in the middle and the ceramic rings on the top. Now you've got me to wondering how the filter works. In the order I placed them, I assumed the intake water was forced to the bottom of the filter, flowing up through the foam, across the ammonia, over the ceramic rings and back into the tank, so here I sit in my all too normal state here lately of confusion !!!! 

Tell me if I did a good, a bad or an ugly...... In order to keep from cutting up more of the back lid to run both filters for awhile, I took the old Aqueon filter off the tank, removed the little filter pack from it and cut off the fuzzy covering. 

Next put the new filter on and with the fuzzy covering from the old filter, I wrapped it around the foam filter of the new one in hopes of saving any bacteria that may have been in the old one. Will that work ? ? ? Just got it all put back back together and while at it, did another 50% water change, so in 5-6 hours, figured for kicks and grins check to see what the ammonia level looks like now.....


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## pH7 (Dec 5, 2011)

First coarse foam, then your old filter pad, then ceramic rings, then zeolite, then fine filter pad. This assumes that water flows from bottom to top. If water flows thru the filter the other way (I've never seen one like that), then reverse the order.


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## pH7 (Dec 5, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> I'm not sure how you figure 3 stage filtration is required. I've been using bio filtration only for years and don't seem to have any problems.


 Triple isn't necessary once you have established plants, but until then, I recommend Carbon (chemical filtration stage). After that you can get by safely and even better with mechanical filtration and biofiltration alone. The activated Carbon is very good for those starting out with no plants. It helps remove cloudiness in the water as well as odor.


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a pic that was on the side of the box explaining how it filtered and the layout of the stage material.... Beats me if it actually works like this, just have to take their word I suppose......


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

rico334 said:


> Here is a pic that was on the side of the box explaining how it filtered and the layout of the stage material.... Beats me if it actually works like this, just have to take their word I suppose......


Both my AC50s worked that way as well as my AC110. I think the only way the filter media would be bypassed is if there was an actual brick in the filter opposed to a sponge and bio media.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Water still flows around the sides of the media in an Aquaclear filter. The filters don't fit snug enough to prevent it from happening. So although the drawing is what happens, they left out the by=pass flow it does. Let the first stage get a little debris and it gets worse.

Have you been adding any type of chemical to the tank - list them all? What brand/type of dechlor have you been using? Plants will help. Anacharis is not the only fast growing plant that will work. Cabomba, hornwort, java moss, can all work also. Post back what type of plants they do have. They will staill take 4-5 days to make an impact, but at least you would have something working for you.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

rico334 said:


> beaslbob, I just got back from the local PetsMart and bought a new filter system, the AuquaClear 20 that was both recommended on here and at the store. Actually had pretty informed lady at the lady help me. I did check on the anacharis plants and they were out, did not drive across town to check at PetCo to see if they did, but PetsMart said she should have some in by Wednesday, so I plan on stopping by and getting some of that too.
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


Sounds like you're on the right path. report back after adding the anachsris.

Or before is you want. 

FWIW and most especially if you have added chemicals and even more especially if the chemical are ammonia locks, there is a slight possibility the ammonia you test is actually locked up and therefore safe(r). What happens is all ammonia locked or not still tests as ammonia with most test kits. So one can get into a cycle of adding lock, testing ammonia, adding more lock and so on. All the while the chemicals are also locking up oxygen as well.

So I just recommend live living plants like anacharis to avoid all that.

IME anacharis just works better also. *old dude

my .02


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

Well, as I should have figured, PetCo, PetsMart and the other independant fish store here in town, after searching all of them, not a single one carried the plants I was told on here to seek out, the Anacharis, Cabomba, Horn Wart or Java Moss. 

Most folks I suppose find a hobby such as aquariums to fulfill happiness and get a reward from the experience, I on the otherhand seem to have found this hobby to empty my wallet, cause me untold stress and occupy all my free time working on it..... 

With not a single plant like I was hunting in any of the shops, I open my wallet up and make an executive decision that a plant is a plant and if they live in the water, they are bound to be beneficial for something, Soooooo ..... I came home with the following live plants and just finished stripping my tank down for about the 4th time this week.

I bought an Anubius plant, a Peacock Fern, and Umbrella plant and a White Ribbon plant. Got them all planted, replaced another 50% water change (about the 10th one this week) and guess I'll see what that does to my water numbers...... Now, feel free to tell me how bad I messed up with this choice of plants, it's all they had and hey...... It's just money huh.....


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

LOL...... Somehow, that's about what I figured... Like I said, the hobby I'm getting out of this is to see just how much money I can sink and how much stress I can develop fiddling with something that's going nowhere but out the back door and into the trash can eventually...... 

The independent FS here in town is about the size of my bedroom closet and he's saltwater only..... PetsMart and PetCo mainly have a bunch of kids working for them that all they are told is to make a sale, so it doesn't surprise me that $30 bucks worth of plants came home with me today just to rot away..... Just another punch onto the end of my sore old nose.......


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## rico334 (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't even think it would be worth my time even asking if they would take them back... They were in these cute little plastic tubes sealed with the worlds toughest tape that required a pair of scissors to hack the tubes to pieces in order to get the plants out.... So I don't think they'll take them back with all the tubes pre-shredded for the recycling center...... 

And I can certainly feel for where the other person made his statement from..... LOL


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## pH7 (Dec 5, 2011)

Do my eyes deceive me, or did someone else just say "rhizome"?! Heh heh. I'm feeling more and more at home.

So here's the thing. I can't get aquarium plants locally either. I am forced to skip the middle man and buy direct from a supplier. I personally have used aquariumplants.com with great success, so I can endorse them in good conscience.

Your success with plants will depend heavily on your selection of the right types. Pay close attention to what has been recommended to you here. You need the type of plant that is a fast grower, thrives in low light conditions, and has a good nutrient uptake rate, all without requiring fertilizer dosing, special substrates, nutrient supplement tabs, or carbon dioxide. The plants that have been recommended here pretty much all fit this description.

If you are like me, and many others, you will get addicted to underwater plants very quickly. At that point you can broaden your horizons by exploring all of the specialized things that I mentioned. But to get you started, stick with what has been recommended. For my recommendation I will say a great one is Cobomba Carolina.

Right off the bat, you will need a minimum of 2 inches of substrate. 3 inches is even better. For my show tanks I use up to 6 inches or more. After that, just add your new plants and some fish poop, then you're off to the races.


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