# Just got some Endlers!



## RavenSkyfire1

Picked up my first livebearers today. I got a trio of Endlers (1 male, 2 females). For the time being they are in a 3 gallon tank but will be upgrading to a larger tank in the near future. Any babies that survive this tank will be taken home and put into one of the bigger tanks there. The 29g is a peaceful community tank so they should do fine in there. One of the females is much larger than the other one and I think she may already be carring fry as her stomach is fairly round. The other female is about the same size as the male, tho I know she will quickly get bigger than him.

This is gonna be fun watching these guys! This tank is on my desk at work so I'll get to see them everyday but the weekends!


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## z1200

Just a tip,If you want to save fry, a nice flat piece of slate on top of your gravel works well. Usually if you flip up the rocks you can find some fry hiding underneath. Also a nice ball of Java moss works pretty well if you don't care to remove the fry.


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## RavenSkyfire1

Thank you for the tip. Once I get them into a bigger tank, I'll be putting live plants in there. With them just being in a small 3 gallon, all I've put in there is fake plants but there are quite a few so there are hiding spots and whatnot for the time being.

I can't wait for these guys to settle in! I feel kinda bad because they were in a tank with alot of other Endlers and now it's just the three by themselves. Do you think they'll be fine until I can get a bigger tank and put more in there or should I go back and get a couple more females? All the ones they have at the store right now are fairly small but I'm not sure if that will be too much for this small tank. Five or six tiny fish in a 3 gallon for maybe two months?


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## Sherry

Your 3 endlers should be ok there for a few weeks. They are small. I wouldn't worry about saving too many fry right now. You can concentrate on that when you get them in your bigger tank. 
How fun watching, they are beautiful little fish.


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## RavenSkyfire1

Do female Endlers get a black spot on their sides when they are feeling testy? The smallest of the two females gets a black stripe on her side when she chases the bigger female. It fades out afterwards but it's making me wonder if I got an uncolored male instead of a small female. Another thing that makes me wonder about her is that her anal fin is more like the males than the big female. Could I just have a male that hasn't colored up yet. But other than that, its the same tanish color as the big female. I tried getting picturs but that proved to be futile.


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## susankat

Sounds like an imature male. It sometimes takes them a little while before they color up.


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## RavenSkyfire1

Yeah, that's what I was thinking! Well, I'll be going back next week to get the bigger tank. Thankfully the filter and heater that I have will work on a bigger tank so I won't have to worry too much about having to cycle the tank. When I get it I'll pick up a few more, hopefully by then their females will be a little easier to tell from the males. they had just gotten the fish in the day before I got there and the female I got was the biggest in the tank. I don't want her to get run ragged by these two males!


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## RavenSkyfire1

Yup, deffinately a baby boy!! LOL I came into work this morning and he's starting to show hints of orange and what looks to be blue but is probably gonna be green. Hopefully that means the ones at the pet store are starting to color up also and it'll be easier to pick out a couple more girls!


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## RavenSkyfire1

Got my first baby fish!!! Got to work this morning and there is one itty bitty little baby swimming around. Fearless little thing too, already swimming with the big fish!! I think it may be a female just based on what the anal fin looks like but it's sooooo small it's hard to tell yet! I saw it eating so I'm tanking that as a good sign!!

Now I'm just a little worried about trying to net the little thing when I go to transfer them to the new tank later this week. May just try to scoop it up in a cup if possible.

It's the one good thing that has happened on this very crappy day


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## skiffia 1

It may be a good few weeks before you can tale which sex it will be. 
It is quite safe to net the fry and is also easy to scoop them up in a cup


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## coralbandit

live beares aren't sexable till at least 4 weeks or so.They all look like females.Some males will be "late bloomers"as a defense mechanism(from other "alpha males") leading to misconception that some live bearers change sex(from female to male) which basically seems to most untrue.


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## RavenSkyfire1

Well, got them all moved over to the bigger tank. It's only a six gallon tank but that's the biggest I could get for work. When I went to dump the old water out of the small tank I caught a glimpse of something moving against the slosh of the water so I did a quick check and found two babies that I had no idea were even in the tank. They must have been born the night before. So now I got three babies!!

So now they have live plants: 2 different Java Ferns, five or so cuts of water wisteria, 6 sprigs of bacopa carolina (sp??) and a sprig of something that looks similar to the bacopa but I don't think it is (if it is a bacopa, it's not the same kind as the others I have in there). There is also a fake driftwood piece that has a cave (went with fake wood because I'm tired of tannins! I had to take the driftwood out of my 29 gallon cause I was tired of the pee colored water!!!!!!!!).

Also, please remind me to never ever buy Petco brand sand again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This stuff floats and is horrible at holding plants down! Wish I had a Tractor Supply store close by so i could just pick up that Black Diamond stuff but the closest one to me is a two day drive (and I ain't driving that far just to get sand!).


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## tbub1221

i love endlers , iv got a lyra tail endler and another endler hybrid whom i fished out of a feeder guppy tank at my lfs , he was a .10 c fish but that lady was pissed i made her dig for him (i picked him from about 2000 fish in a no picking tank  . ) i also have a male feeder guppy whom was 1 of 5 of the first fish i put in my tank to cycle it way way back. when i got him he was itty bitty with just a little red and 3 black spots .. now hes gotten rather big being the only fish out of the little group to survive this far . and his tail is getting bigger and more faned out , and the cutest part is his dorsal fin has darkened up to a black and white striped pattern. i love it because hes so little and i had no clue those little guys could change that much. it sounds to me though that you may have a small adolescent male and a female and a mature male . the females being live barers do get a dark gravid spot when prego just like the fancy's and it is tecknickly a spot but im sure you know the difference in the 2. it sounds like fun good luck with the new buddy's


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## emeraldking

Hi there,

I really have to disagree with Coralbandit overhere. I guess, you're still young or inexperienced to say this. I don't mean this negative by the way but I would like to correct you on this. 
Yes, you've got late bloomers when it comes to males. But it's a fact that female livebearers can change their sex. I've seen it happen so often in more than 40 years that I'm practising aquaristics. So, you're wrong on that one. Even females which have dropped fry once or more can change into males. It happens most with swordtails, platies, mollies and from time to time with guppies. I can ensure you that this is a true fact! But when a female changes into a male, the gravid spot will remain. And just like male late bloomers they're mostly somewhat larger in size.
Not all but for sure a lot of livebearers can be sexed very early. So, it doesn't take at least 4 weeks. It takes even less. Every female livebearer of (at least) the poecilia family are born with gravid spots. But depending on the individual fish, it's more clear to see in comparison to another female. As a breeder of livebearers for over 40 years (I started off as a young boy), you may take this all as true remarks. 

As being an experienced breeder I felt obligated to say this...
With all respect Coralbandit for your effort overhere. But your story ain't correct in this case.

For example, if you speak about livebearers of the goodeidae family (real livebearers) then it shows a bit later what sex you're dealing with, with the exception of xenotocas.

Hope you're not offended? But a true story should be a true story...

Grtz, "S"


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## emeraldking

Speaking about endlers...
In general male endlers stay smaller in size than a male fancy guppy but some do grow up larger. Females however will grow up till the size of a female fancy guppy. Most of the time you'll find small females when it comes to endlers. This has got to do with the following: males will mature and stop growing earlier than females. But they have the same growth speed in general. And females are already fertile very early. So, when they're still mixed in one tank, most females are already impregnant by the males. The growth potential will go to the development of the new offspring. In general this results in a growth stop of het bodylength. Which causes smaller females. Some do grow more but in this case most of them remain small. 

I've got lots of females which have the size of a female fancy guppy. Wether they're N-, P- or K-class endlers.

Btw, I don't get the young fry out of the tanks where they were born. When you take your time to let the adults adjust to have smaller tank mates around them. At acertain point, they won't chase the fry anymore. No 100% guarantee but most will survive!

Take care, "S"


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## susankat

I've kept endlers a long time also. And I would almost swear the females are born pregnant. I have never removed fry from the adult tank. If you have plants in the tank very few would be lost and things growing on plants make good first foods.


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## dalfed

emeraldking said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I really have to disagree with Coralbandit overhere. I guess, you're still young or inexperienced to say this. I don't mean this negative by the way but I would like to correct you on this.
> Yes, you've got late bloomers when it comes to males. But it's a fact that female livebearers can change their sex. I've seen it happen so often in more than 40 years that I'm practising aquaristics. So, you're wrong on that one. Even females which have dropped fry once or more can change into males. It happens most with swordtails, platies, mollies and from time to time with guppies. I can ensure you that this is a true fact! But when a female changes into a male, the gravid spot will remain. And just like male late bloomers they're mostly somewhat larger in size.
> Not all but for sure a lot of livebearers can be sexed very early. So, it doesn't take at least 4 weeks. It takes even less. Every female livebearer of (at least) the poecilia family are born with gravid spots. But depending on the individual fish, it's more clear to see in comparison to another female. As a breeder of livebearers for over 40 years (I started off as a young boy), you may take this all as true remarks.
> 
> As being an experienced breeder I felt obligated to say this...
> With all respect Coralbandit for your effort overhere. But your story ain't correct in this case.
> 
> For example, if you speak about livebearers of the goodeidae family (real livebearers) then it shows a bit later what sex you're dealing with, with the exception of xenotocas.
> 
> Hope you're not offended? But a true story should be a true story...
> 
> Grtz, "S"


So your telling me my seperated female guppy tank is going to start having babies?
I hope you're wrong lol had to seperate them cause numbers were through the roof.


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## emeraldking

Hi there Susankat,

Long time no see...
Yeah, you were almost suspecting them of being pregnant when they're just born. Reproduction is a continuous thing with them! Hahaha... tell me about it!

I don't have to worry just like you that young fry will get lost by leaving them in the regular tank. I don't even dare to count the amount of endlers I have. But I can ensure that I've got always sufficient fish overhere to bring along when I'm participating vivaristic events. Nowadays, it's not just such events in Holland but also in Germany and Belgium. 

Nice to meet you again...

Grtz, Stan


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## emeraldking

Hi Dalfed,

Well, sorry but do you mean you've seperated your female guppies from the tank where you've got young fry? Or do you mean that a seperated female guppy could have babies without a male? Or do you mean something else? 
It's not very clear to me what you mean. 

But you are aware that one fertilization is securing a couple of pregnancies.Right?

Curious of what you meant by this...

Have a nice evening,
Stan


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## Summer

congrats. i have a 55 full of endlers and they've been there for about a month and i swear I already have a ton more despite most of the one i had put in being young. it's crazy haha


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## susankat

Hi Stan, good to see you again.

When it comes to endlers and guppies, the females can store sperm for about 6 months. When we had a big freeze a few years ago I lost power for 10 days the only endlers that survived was 5 small fry. All females and in a month those females were having babies.


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## dalfed

Sorry Stan what I meant was that I seperated my male and female guppies about 3 months ago. As fry were showing up I seperated them as well, now have three tanks going move the fry to the male or female tank as they become old enough to sex. I have not had any new fry for about three weeks and am hoping to not have anymore for awhile as ten turned into hundreds in a very short while.
Then in reading your post it made me wonder if what I have read to be an old fish tale is true. All the scientific sights on the net say it is impossible for guppies to change sex but quite a few of the forums have members who swear it has happened in their tanks. Just hoping it doesn't happen in mine if it is possible.
Only option that will be left is to let them swim with the cichlids for awhile.


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## skiffia 1

To a very experienced fish keeper livebearers can be sexed very early. livebearers for many of the inexperienced fish keepers It’s not so easy to sex them it usually takes at least 4 weeks before they can properly sex them,
I personally don’t believe that livebearers can change their sex. until I see one of my female livebearers have fry grow a fall functional gonopodium and impregnate a virgin female and produce fry. then I will believe it.

old females can often take on the characteristics of a male often seen in swordtails. Most livebearers sex out and are functional at about three months many can take a long time to sex out especially swordtails some can take a well over a year to sex out. the myths of livebearers changing sex originated from the swordtails.


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## emeraldking

Hi there Dale and Skiffia1,

Female guppies can change sex as well but that doesn't happen that much as with swordtails and platies. Mollies can do the same but just like guppies, it will occur much less. I'm not the only one who has seen it happen throughout the years that female livebearers from the poecilidae family are able to change their gender. Even if they have already delivered young fry themselves. Once again, I'll do repeat myself that the gravid spot will remain. And I also dare to say that (how crazy this may sound...) that these new males are able to fertilize other females. 
This sex change has got also nothing to do with the age of the female.

I do have to say that this phenomena isn't only happening with fish. Even with mamals it's possible when the ratio of male /female is really out of balance and the urge to let the species survive is present. Then this sex change will occur from female to male.

And this is a total other story than the late bloomers. Which I've already mentioned before... These are males which develop the male characteristics pretty late and these are in general larger in size as well.

There's also another category of males. These are males which grow up large as well but will never develop a full gonopodium. And in way, these males have characteristics of both female and male. But the male behaviour will be present.

The real experienced keepers and/or breeders among us know what I'm talking about.
So, the sex change ain't a myth but a true fact...

Btw Dale, what I meant as well was that most of the females of the poecilidae family can store the semen for months. So, even when a female is kept seperate from males, she is still able (if she was fertilized at least once...) to get pregnant again. Even if she's not delivering for a couple of months for she's the one who decides if a pregnancy starts or not.

Well,this will be all...

Have a nice remaining of your day,
Stan 





It does take an experienced breeder of livebearers to sex the young fry at an early stage. And I do sex them early for I need to do that regarding my breeding programme.


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## skiffia 1

Hi Stan I am a real experienced keeper/ breeder of wild livebearers and i know what you are talking about you are correct saying a sex change has got nothing to do with the age of the female. It doesn’t change the fact that some old females can develop male characteristics not Functional ). I am also aware of males that have the characteristics of both sexes and of course the late bloomers. With all due Respect to you I have never witnessed a 100% change of gender when or if I see it happen I will then believe it to be true .


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## tbub1221

id really like to see that...im clear on fish having both characteristics of both genders and of late bloomers ETC... but never saw one myself drop fry and then find a female and impregnate it... then again im newer to this than the lot of you .. either way this is cool info as i keep live bearers ,, i keep molly platy sword tail .. and fancy guppy as well as multiple variations of endlers .cobra , lyratail , black bar , and some interesting mixes. my most beautiful endler (romeo) who has a high dorsal that is yellow and black tiger striped , with emerald and red spots got a new girl friend yesterday , i came in with a gorgous velvet looking crimson Bloood red fancy female 4 him , he loves her . he watched for an hour + wile she acclimated and as soon as he had the chance he was all over her lol .. any clue what he may actually be or is it just a hybrid possibly , ill post a pic soon if wanted. but i hope they make awesome little ones together.. also id like to say thanks again to emeraldking i checked out the link you gave me to ur fish , they are stunning .. cheers m8


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## dalfed

got me interested enough to go and buy six female platies and a new 10 gallon tank, seeing is believing, besides nice looking fish anyways.


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