# Help! My African Dwarf Frog & Algae Eater are in a Deathlock!



## Aoibhell

My African Dwarf Frog apparently tried to eat my algae eater (not sure what kind...he's tiny with a stripe). They appear to be stuck. I tried to gently pry them apart but they are stuck pretty good. It appears as though it's the algae eater that won't let go, but it could be that the frog's jaw is stuck around the algae eater. Both appear to be alive. 

If I can't save both, I want to save at least one. Any ideas?


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## zero

can you post a picture? would be helpful! or try lifting them out the water, the algae eater will have to let go if he can. depending what the algea eater is the frog could have a spine stuck


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## zero

if that is the case you'll have to cut the spine but lift them out the water first then post a p[ic


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## Aoibhell




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## Aoibhell

I don't think I have the stomach to cut the poor thing. We've tried pulling them apart but they won't budge. My husband pulled them out of the water and even tried prying open the frog's mouth but no luck. He thinks it's the algae eater that won't let go, but no one budged.


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## zero

how long did you have them out the water for? i had to run my snakes head under water for a good min before he would let go when he bit me! take them out for longer.

the algea eater hasnt gone in far enought to cut spines, his dorsal fin is reall far back. is the algea eater still breathing?


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## zero

oh just had a thought. you can make them go to sleep by putting them in clove oil, not sure what effect it will have on the frog but the fish will be fine. its what vets use to make them sleep.

For fish up to 3 inches (7.6 cm) in length, some simple steps can be followed. The fish's owner should add some tank water to a measuring cup or mixing bowl. The amount of tank water added to the cup or bowl should be measured and a note of it made. The fish should then be placed in the container. If the fish is in a clear cup, a dark towel placed around the cup may calm the fish. 
The owner should next fill a small, clean jar or bottle with tank water, leaving some room at the top. A baby food jar or pill bottle can work well for this. He should then add 1 drop of clove oil in the jar or bottle, cap it, and shake the jar vigorously. The clove oil should emulsify, turning the water milky white.
About 1/4 of this emulsified mixture should then be poured into the fish's container. The fish will begin listing as it starts to fall asleep. The fish should be allowed to sit for about 10 minutes. 
The fish should be resting on the bottom of the tank when it has fallen asleep. It will look dead, but if watched closely, its gills will be breathing once every few seconds. If after 10 minutes the fish is still rising off the bottom and swimming intermittently, the owner should retrieve the jar or bottle of emulsified clove oil, re-shake, and add the same dose to the fish's container. He should wait again for the fish to fall asleep.


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## navigator black

Most South American algae eaters and small catfish do what your Oto has done. They kill the predator by hanging on. Corydoras throw out their spines (in their fins) and jam themselves in the hunter's throat. 
If your Oto lets go, he/she expects to be gulped down. So I expect the fish has used its mouth's suction abilities to grab the frog's jaw or tongue. As far as the fish is concerned, letting go means going down that throat...
What to do. Really agitated water might help. As silly as this sounds, a good old dollar store turkey baster could be used to hit them with jets of water and maybe get one of them to release.
Your oto may be gallantly giving its life to protect the shoal, Cory style, by taking down that predator. I'd put them in a net, in the tank and keep them in the filter outflow while basting them with tank water, aiming at the frog's face since it's wider. As is, both will probably die, so it's worth an ettempt.

I have to say, I have never seen that before.


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## Aoibhell

Thanks for all of your advice. Unfortunately, I don't have a baster or clove oil on hand. The frog is actually hanging out by the filter outflow. I will try to keep them there with the net and see what happens. Should I still try to keep them out of water long enough for the oto to let go?


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## Aoibhell

No baster, but I have an aspirator. Going to give that a try. The frog seems to be getting weak.


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## Aoibhell

Aspirator doesn't seem to be working. How long should I try?


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## zero

if the frogs getting weak id say gie it a go taking them out. but afetr navs psot, would that make the oto hold on more or let go to get back in the water? really hope they both ok.

can you tilt the outflow to make it stronger?


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## zero

take em out for a min maybe?


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## Aoibhell

I took them out for a minute.. nothing. Not sure if the oto is still alive, as it's gills are right by the frog's mouth. If he dies, won't he release?


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## zero

yeah ones hes died im sure he will, wont be able to suck. have you put the back enst to the outflow?


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## Aoibhell

zero said:


> yeah ones hes died im sure he will, wont be able to suck. have you put the back enst to the outflow?


Back end, you mean? I've tried aspirating them right in the face, but it didn't work... just agitated the frog. 

If I had them out of the water for over a minute and oto hasn't let go, could that mean he's dead but frog can't slip him out of his mouth because his jaw is open too wide?

I've decided to turn the light out and leave them be unless someone has something else to try. This is bothering me a lot more than it should


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## zero

no just back in front of the out flow?

maybe hold them out longer? im sure some plecos can live out of water for like ten mins! have no idea about otos tho


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## Aoibhell

Yes, I've tried holding them by the outflow. Do you think I should try holding them out of water longer or just let them be?


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## navigator black

I actually looked this up, as it is a known angelfish and Oto problem. I'm assuming that is (was) an Oto. 
Otocinclus have defensive spines, but I believe they are all in the fins. That ambitious frog hasn't swallowed the fish as deep as I think it would have to to get spined, but I don't know if the head of the fish had additional defences. It seems to have at the very least locked on its rasping teeth. Those teeth point inwards to scrape algae and pull it back for digestion - not a good thing for the frog.
It is probably suffocated, as an Oto is a high oxygen needs fish. The angelfish source said to gently rock the dead Oto from side to side to see of you could extricate, but that the chances for survival of the predator were low. A sideways motion could release a deathlock with the teeth involved... could.


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## Aoibhell

navigator black said:


> I actually looked this up, as it is a known angelfish and Oto problem. I'm assuming that is (was) an Oto.
> Otocinclus have defensive spines, but I believe they are all in the fins. That ambitious frog hasn't swallowed the fish as deep as I think it would have to to get spined, but I don't know if the head of the fish had additional defences. It seems to have at the very least locked on its rasping teeth. Those teeth point inwards to scrape algae and pull it back for digestion - not a good thing for the frog.
> It is probably suffocated, as an Oto is a high oxygen needs fish. The angelfish source said to gently rock the dead Oto from side to side to see of you could extricate, but that the chances for survival of the predator were low. A sideways motion could release a deathlock with the teeth involved... could.


I've tried rocking him back and forth, to no avail. His gills are still exposed, so I think he has the opportunity to breathe, but I can't tell if he is. If he's locked on with his teeth, would he be stuck there, even if he is dead? 

I don't think this will end well for either of them.


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## zero

hows it going with them now?


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## Aoibhell

Well it turns out the oto is still alive. The frog is not doing well at all. I don't think he has much time left. Not sure why, since he can still breathe... he ate well last night. Now the fish is horizontally level while the frog is just hanging there, limp. I tried hanging them upside down and partially out of the water to see if that would motivate the oto, but I just ended up agitating the frog. They both have some fight left.

I wonder if he will release when the frog dies? I thought maybe if I put them in a cup of cold water, it would shock them and they'd release. Do you think that would work?

This is awful to watch unfold


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## Manafel

if you put them in shock, you would have to worry about killing them from the shock. sorry to hear that this is happening, keep us posted...


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## Aoibhell

Manafel said:


> if you put them in shock, you would have to worry about killing them from the shock. sorry to hear that this is happening, keep us posted...


I'm afraid they are going to die, anyway, but I don't want it to be by my hand. This situation sucks.


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## zero

could you not get the clove oil? re they still alive?


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## Aoibhell

zero said:


> could you not get the clove oil? re they still alive?


I wouldn't even know where to get that. They are still both alive. The will on these guys is incredible. We've tried unhooking them, squirting them with tank water, and even leaving them in a dry bowl for 10 minutes. 

This is insane. We don't know what else to do, but to wait it out and let nature take it's course.


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## zero

you can get it from a pharmacy i think. or a health shop. wouldnt know what shops to suggest unfortunatly. are they both still def alive?! this has been going on for hours!!!!!!


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## Aoibhell

As of a half hour ago, they were, but I'm not so sure about the frog right now. He hasn't come up for air in awhile. Not sure how long they can go without it, so I could be wrong (I've assumed they both were dead many times today, only to be wrong).

I think they have superpowers.


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## longtail4711

You can get clove oil at any drug store, usually in the section for dental care. It's often used as a numbing agent for toothaches. 

5 drops of oil per gallon of water. Try to use water from the tank (but dump it after you use it, of course.) 

Your frog is stressed and exhausted from battling with the fish. I hope for the best for you!


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## scooterlady

Hope everything works out...keep us posted...


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## Aoibhell

Outcome: 

My husband tried breaking the suction with a spatula fashioned from a straw again. He finally broke them free. Otto is dead  The frog is alive but his mouth is gaping open. Not sure if it was because it's just been open for so long or if he broke something. 

He appears to be conserving energy after all of that (it's been at least 13 hours). I put blood worms in there but I doubt he'll be able to eat right now. There is a red dot in his mouth.. not sure how serious the injury is. He better make it, though, after everything he's been through.

Thank you to everyone for their advice and suggestions.. better one than none. I'll update in the morning.


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## Manafel

glad to hear you were able to separate them, sorry to hear about the otto though  I hope your frog comes around


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## Bigmike

Dang, thats the craziest thing I ever saw in a aquarium..........Surely that frog didn't think he could swallow that fish  

That had to be hell not knowing what to do to help...


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## Aoibhell

It was awful. I can deal with fish dying... it's sad, but it happens. But when I'm forced to just watch 2 little guys fight for their lives for hours... that's a different thing altogether. I spent the entire day (13 hours) either in front of a laptop- trying to find a solution, or trying any suggestion given to me. Very long day.

I was sad to see the oto go, but so happy the ADF made it. We ended up renaming him Tenacious Fred the Undead. He seems to be doing just fine now. His mouth isn't totally closed yet, but it's only open a tiny bit. All seems to be well. Go, frog, go!


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## zero

sad about the oto but happy one still lived!!!! love the new name of the frog too..... i guess hes just got killer jaw ache!


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## frogwings

With all this going on, don't forget the frog has to go to the surface to breath. Maybe try holding the oto's gills closed for a short time to see if it releases the frog in order to breath? Being unable to breath might override it's other instincts for survival. I have had both frogs and otos for several years, and have never had this happen. My guess is the frog was feeling around for food with his mouth open and the oto got startled, swimming straight into the frog's mouth. I put the frog food on a little plate and the otos go there to eat the frog pellets thus mingling with each other. I would be in a "state" over this situation and be crying for sure! Good luck!


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## Aoibhell

frogwings said:


> With all this going on, don't forget the frog has to go to the surface to breath. Maybe try holding the oto's gills closed for a short time to see if it releases the frog in order to breath? Being unable to breath might override it's other instincts for survival. I have had both frogs and otos for several years, and have never had this happen. My guess is the frog was feeling around for food with his mouth open and the oto got startled, swimming straight into the frog's mouth. I put the frog food on a little plate and the otos go there to eat the frog pellets thus mingling with each other. I would be in a "state" over this situation and be crying for sure! Good luck!


A little late to the party, but thank you for your advice  The only thing that ended up working was separating them by "breaking the suction". The oto didn't survive the stress, but the frog is alive and well.


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## frogwings

Oops! Better late than never? Sorry to hear about your little oto. May he be in peace in the big freshwater pool in the sky...


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