# Massive fungus outbreak, using hydrogen peroxide



## ripit

I have a 55 gal tank that is maybe 2/3 stocked with mollys and tetras (all new fish from the same store). It was not fully cycled but was heavily seeded (dirty filter, gravel, plastic plants and decorations and live plants). I also use api quick start which has bacteria. It seemed to be fine (last nitrite reading was .5 and last nitrate was 20). 

Some of the mollies got white spots, patches and cottony patches after about a week. I asked for advice and was told its probably columnaris. I treated with maracyn (erythromycin) which treats columaris, and maracyn two just to be safe. The package said treats body fungus so I thought it treated fungus. Come to find out body fungus is the common name for columaris which is bacterial and it doesn't treat fungus, in fact in humans it can cause. It did no good. My current therory (half guessing) is that the mollies came from the store with ich, and the fungus in the tank attacked the wounds from the ich. 


The tank has been overfeed (trying to get a balance between feeding fish that hang around the bottom, finding what food they like etc). I feed omega shrimp pellets which none would eat and grows fungus on it in less than a day. 
No matter how many times I siphon the gravel I still get tiny bits with huge blooms of fungus. Fungus is now growing a little on the decor. 


I am treating the water with hydrogen peroxide at 0.5 ml per gal since last night. I'm changing/adding water so much as the tank was drained part down for antibiotic treatment, I'm just adding the right amount to new water. tropical science ich medicine uses that exact amount of hydrogen peroxide which is where I got the dose. Fyi hydrogen peroxide is fda approved for use in fisheries and has been used in limited other instances with good results. Its basically just an oxidiser like most ich/fungus meds but this one is available cheap to treat a big tank. 

It hasn't been a full day but things have stopped getting worse (some fish look a little better). I have found info on dips at stronger concentrations (3 fish are quarenteened with the most severe cases). I have read that these oxidizers loose some effectiveness if there is organic material in the tank (like fungus) and there is plenty that I am having a hard time getting rid of. 

Can I use a higher dose (is anyone familiar with using it)? I know much higher doses are used for dips up to an hour (more commonly 30 minutes). Is there another oxidizer/medicine that would work better on a severe case like this (remember I have to treat 55 gal and have probably killed my bacteria so I have to do water changes too)?

The peroxide can harm the slime coat. What is the best product to help with that? 

Any ideas, advice or help would be appreciated very much.


----------



## navigator black

Okay, I don't want to sound like a snot, but I read your first sentence and thought - it will have appeared on the mollies first. It did. I won't tell you how I learned that...

Your tank is not cycled - the product you bought had bacteria in it when it was bottled, but very few bottled bacteria products are worth more than their plastic bottle is. 

Mollies will always show ammonia damage faster than other fish - they are actually delicate fish. Their slime coating is being stripped, and the fungus is a secondary phase.
You need to stop the peroxide. It'll strip the very defences under attack. I've used it, and it does attack the slime coat. It's very unstable.

Fungus is incredibly rare in a healthy tank. It is IMHO, a tank disease and not a fish disease - it is entirely environmental. When it starts on the decor, the tank is awash in organic wastes. You have a serious water pollution problem. So forget the fungus. It is a symptom. You have to get to the cause - the state of the water and the lack or effective biological filtration. Start making huge water changes.

How many fish is 2/3 stocked?
What is the pH, GH, KH?
Do you have a means of reading ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels? I generally consider test kits a waste of money, but when a tank is out of control, the info they provide can be invaluable.
How many large water changes have you done to deal with the fungal outbreak?
Do you have a gravel siphon?

I'm guessing you are way overstocked for the level of cycle you are at now. Your filtration hasn't matured and you may have uneaten food in there (if you saw fungus on it, it was already there too long). 

It's a rough start, and you can get through it with water changes, water changes, patience and water changes. You need no medications in there - I expect they are counter-productive. You have to focus on detoxifying the aquarium environment.

I change 25-30% weekly and people must be sick of seeing me write that. I would do that twice or more weekly for the first six weeks of an overstocked tank, until the bacterial colonies catch up.


----------



## ripit

Navigator - My husband is at work, but he agrees it's environmental. What about removing fish and plants, and hitting tank with a heavier dose of peroxide to kill/reduce fungus. Except when using antibiotics, he's been doing constant water changes. Water is fresh and clean right now (just changed).

What about the ich? It does have little dots.


----------



## ripit

Sorry for not providing more information. I was going to be late for work but figured my wife could check to see what advice was given and see if I could buy anything to help before the stores closed). 
I knew the peroxide would damage the slime coat but considered it the lesser of two evils at the time. It was one of my main reasons for posting. I have seen several products that claim to regenerate the slime coat or help heal wounds and wondered if any were any good (I wanted to pick some up if possible). The local pet store for the most part only caries api products and there is walmart (small poorly stock selection but they might have something else). I guess I didn't make that clear (was in a hurry). 

The peroxide dose was pretty small (comes out to about 5 ppm if my math is correct). I picked that dose because one over the counter product used that dose of peroxide for ich. I did read many reports of much stronger doses for a short term dip (most often 30 minutes) so I wasn't sure if more would hurt or help. One study claimed freshwater fish died at 300ppm but survived at 150ppm and it was effective at eliminating parasites such as ich (I believe this was a 30 minute treatment). 


I have the main tank and a small quarenteen tank (had 4 mollies in the small tank but one died). With frequent water changes in the quarenteen tank (several times a day) and antibiotics, they continued to get much worse. The one that died had a little fuzz on his tail when I started antibiotics. Within a day it had a huge sphere of fuzz about 1/2" on its tale. The water was changed often (several times in a day including when treated with antibiotics). As soon as I started using the peroxide, they started getting better and are much better now (still using antibiotics so). Much of the fuzz is gone (not all) and the are much more lively. Before they would only eat a few nips of food and just now they were fighting over the food on the second feeding (I only gave a tiny bit to start with as they were eating so little before). The fungus seems mostly gone from their body though there is a little and the damage seems to remain. 

My concerns with stopping treatment is that they seem to be benefiting, and in the bigger tank some fish do have spots (white dots) that look like ich. Some of the tetras have a few on their fins and tails only. My other concern is that the dots do not seem to be going away (I think) but the fungus is. 


I have a feeling the primary source for the fungus was omega one shrimp pellets. When first experimenting with them to get food to the bottom feeders, they could not eat them hard so I left them for a while. Within part of a day, they would get a big bloom of fungus on them. They would break up when trying to remove them. I now know to use a turkey baster but didn't know that then (I have made quite a few mistakes). It seems even the tiniest bit left behind will grow a nice big bloom of fungus. I only have a tiny bit of gravel in the bottom (it was maybe 1/2 inch but now some areas are deeper and there is a big bare spot in the middle as adding water blows all the gravel away from the area). I still had to add water and siphon 3 times last time trying to get all the tiny micro bits of those pellets with mold on them. 

I knew the bacteria in a bottle was questionable but used some just in case it helped. I was hoping that all the seed material would have done most of the job in helping it at least get an accelerated start. I used items from a healthy and established tank and they went straight from that tank into this one. It had too much gravel (abut 2 inches) so I mixed some of it with the new gravel. I used plastic plants and decorations that had bacteria established on them. I had a plenty dirty filter that I put behind a new filter for several days (to seed the new filter so that tank wouldn't recycle), and then put it straight into the new tank. I have been doing frequent water changes with many in the last week (smaller, 1-2 5 gallon buckets). It did go a day without any water changes when antibiotics were in there but I did add 2 5 gallon buckets. I drained it down to about 15 gallons, then added 1 clean bucket after about 6 hours, and another the next morning. A little after a day when I realized the antibiotics were not helping, I added many buckets of water (tanks a little more than half full after pulling 4 buckets out cleaning). I also used prime to reduce ammonia and nitrite (small amounts to reduce, not eliminate it). 

I do not have a test kit (would have ordered the api one by now but those antibiotics were expensive). The only local store claims to use a liquid test but does not give an ammonia reading so I think they are using strips. The last reading was .5 nitrite, 20 nitrite. I plan on going to another store (a bit of a drive) when I can to have the water tested again. 


I do have a gravel siphon and have used it. I added and drained and added and drained (5 gal buckets 1-2 at a time) till the water was clean before running antibiotics, then after giving up an antibiotics, changed quite a bit of water with 4 5 gallon buckets worth being gravel cleaning. 

I managed to get a so so image of a tetra with a dot to show the size. yes they only have a few such dots on fins or tales. They did have some white along the edges on some but its gone. One note. There is kind of a halo around it. That is from the camera flash, not something that is really there. The center dot is about how big it is and it is chalk white. Look at the rear bottom of the tail for a purple dot (again, the purple is the camera, it looks chalk white). 

IMGP0079.JPG photo - Richard Homeyer photos at pbase.com

If you look at the other picture (not sure they are relevant anymore), it was from before any treatment when I first pulled them from the tank (just realized there was a problem). The tetra pic was taken just now.


----------



## NeonShark666

One of the best and easiest treatments for ich in Mollies is saltwater. Slowly increase your salt contnent and stop feeding. Once you reach an sp of around 1.020, stop adding salt and your fungus will gradually go away.


----------



## ripit

NeonShark666 said:


> One of the best and easiest treatments for ich in Mollies is saltwater. Slowly increase your salt contnent and stop feeding. Once you reach an sp of around 1.020, stop adding salt and your fungus will gradually go away.


I actually read that and wish I could. From what I understand mollies can tolerate a lot of salt. If what I have read is correct, the tetras can not tolerate the salt though. Is that correct? I can not think of any way to separate that many short of getting another tank (maybe the tetras could take a 5 gal bucket for a short while), but doesn't that treatment take a while? I could not find anywhere that said how much salt tetras could tolerate, it was basically none?

Fyi, I already bought aquarium sea salt and have it on hand should I be able to come up with a solution. What could I treat the tetras with if I treated the mollies with salt?


----------



## ripit

The 3 that were really bad and are separated seem to be well on the road to recovery. Would it be a bad idea to return them to the main tank (they are cooped up in a tiny tank). If it were a healthy tank I would wait but the whole tank was effected and is being treated.


----------



## navigator black

I think you are describing a whole series of cascading problems from the one source, almost.

The fish are extremely stressed. Probably, the tank is uncycled and the levels of ammonia are in the danger zone. The first parasite to take advantage of that is the fungus, which is also helped by the uneaten food. It established itself. I'm surprised a fin rot type illness didn't flare at the same time - it usually does.

The main stress on the fish will be respiratory, as the ammonia will burn their gills. That's why peroxide worries me, as while it will reduce the fungus, it will irritate the already troubled gills.

Your disease profile suggests you have moderately hard water, or oodinium sp. "velvet" would be roaring through that tank. Instead, Ich has begun to seize the opportunity. It's that perfect storm that drives newcomers out of the hobby.

I think it all comes down to two issues, one big, one slightly smaller. The big one is the need to cycle. You put too many fish in, too fast. The tank has to stabilize, and its instability can leave you chasing symptoms for weeks. 
You can only use one med at a time. That's a cardinal rule. Fungus kills, Ich slaughters. Do a big water change. Go for a dye based Ich med, and raise the temperature to 85f. Keep the water moving. You should be doing a lot of water changes, but you now need meds (remove any carbon from the filter). 
You are in a vicious circle.

The smaller issue is these fish probably carried the diseases in with them - they would possibly overcome them with a cycled tank, but they are on the micro-organism dinner plate without clean water, no Ich and time. It'll take 4-6 weeks to fix this and the fish may be doomed. The aquarium project isn't, however, if you cycle slowly.


----------



## ripit

navigator black said:


> I think you are describing a whole series of cascading problems from the one source, almost.
> 
> The fish are extremely stressed. Probably, the tank is uncycled and the levels of ammonia are in the danger zone. The first parasite to take advantage of that is the fungus, which is also helped by the uneaten food. It established itself. I'm surprised a fin rot type illness didn't flare at the same time - it usually does.
> 
> The main stress on the fish will be respiratory, as the ammonia will burn their gills. That's why peroxide worries me, as while it will reduce the fungus, it will irritate the already troubled gills.
> 
> Your disease profile suggests you have moderately hard water, or oodinium sp. "velvet" would be roaring through that tank. Instead, Ich has begun to seize the opportunity. It's that perfect storm that drives newcomers out of the hobby.
> 
> I think it all comes down to two issues, one big, one slightly smaller. The big one is the need to cycle. You put too many fish in, too fast. The tank has to stabilize, and its instability can leave you chasing symptoms for weeks.
> You can only use one med at a time. That's a cardinal rule. Fungus kills, Ich slaughters. Do a big water change. Go for a dye based Ich med, and raise the temperature to 85f. Keep the water moving. You should be doing a lot of water changes, but you now need meds (remove any carbon from the filter).
> You are in a vicious circle.
> 
> The smaller issue is these fish probably carried the diseases in with them - they would possibly overcome them with a cycled tank, but they are on the micro-organism dinner plate without clean water, no Ich and time. It'll take 4-6 weeks to fix this and the fish may be doomed. The aquarium project isn't, however, if you cycle slowly.


That all about sounds right to me. This is just a theory but I'm thinking the ich was the initial cause and the fish came infected with it. Wide availability of fungus due to overfeeding of food that grows fungus very easily as well as the fish eating food with fungus on it made it quite easy for fungus to setup on the wounds from the ich. While I think instability of the tank contributed, I have taken any and all measures I could to control ammonia. I did a lot of water changes (many small ones of 5-10 gal). I have accelerated that even more with the disease. Probably at least 80% of the water in the tank is less than 24 hours old. The only exception was no water changes for about a day on the 55 gal tank while treating with antibiotics (the small quarenteen tank with the worst fish still got several water changes during the antibiotics). I did add clean water during the antibiotics though (started with about 15 gal in the tank and added 2 5 gal buckets within that day). I have also been using small amounts of prime to reduce ammonia some. I read that a tank full of live plants only goes through a mini cycle as the plants love and consume the ammonia so I added 3 decent size live plants (I know that is not enough but I figured it would help a little). The plants might have introduced something but they came from a reputable seller that distributes fish and plants to other states and Canada, as well as mail order. I seeded items with bacteria from an established tank.

I know all that will not replace a properly cycled tank but I had hoped it would at least reduce the negative impact. Odds are the instability of water conditions contributed even if reading were not high (if I do drive further to get stuff I'll get water tested again and will eventually get the api kit). I'm sure I made some other mistakes that contributed but I'm trying. 


So as far as treatment, hydrogen peroxide is the active ingredient in at least 2 ick cures, one of which I am matching the dosage of. If it has a chance of killing the ick and obviously is working on the fungus (or columnaris, doesn't mater as its working), would it be best to stick with it a little longer? If not, I can change to an ick cure that might work better. If so what to get?

One I know I can get locally is jungle ick cure (the tablets) that contain victoria green, acriflavine. Should I be getting something with methelene blue instead? I can probably get most api products 
Seems their main one is "Super Ick Cure contains malachite green"

I also have some fungus meds (haven't used them) that contain nitrofurazone, furazolidone (both broad spectrum antibiotics) and potassium dichromate (another oxidizer like peroxide). I thought I had read that potassium dichromate works on ich. I assume you are saying do not use something like this last one?

Also a bit of an confession. I know I'll get torn a new one for this, and realize it was a mistake, but its done and can not be undone. Hopefully everyone will still be wiling to continue to help even though part of the problem was stupid mistakes like this (in the back of my mind I probably knew better and knew I was taking a chance). Of course buying fish at petsmart is always taking a chance (this one at least). I got so many fish because petsmart had them all on sale for 80 cents ea. and it was a cheap way to stock the tank. I tried to stay under what the tank would support when healthy and did all I could to keep it healthy. The petsmart tanks had some dead fish in them, including a tank I got fish out of (you don't need to tell me how stupid that was). I pestered my manager the whole day to let me leave work a few minutes early before petsmart closed (in a friendly way). I got there 10 minutes before closing the second day of a 2 day sale and left 40 minutes after they closed (there were others getting fish after closing so I had to wait my turn). I was trying to hurry and may have made poor decisions. I guess I lost the gamble and am learning my lesson the hard way. At least the fish are with someone that is trying to learn and help them (the guy that got fish before me had the 10 gal tank kit in his cart and got maybe 20 fish including maybe a dozen mollies). He didn't want to pay for any chemicals except declor.


----------



## ripit

I tried to take better pics but no such luck. I carefully examined the fish to see their current state. All the fuzzy stuff is gone except a few tiny puffs hanging off (could be dead but still attached). I would say 95% of the fuzzy stuff is gone. I have siphoned the gravel enough to fill 4 5 gallon buckets to get it clean. The water is mostly new from water changes. The cloudy, swollen, puffy eyes on the mollies actually look good (I though for sure at least one or two would wind up blind). They are no longer foggy or swollen and have no fuzz. They have returned to black. There are still some smaller patches that are slightly white to semi white with no fuzz (much less than there were and they look like they could be damage though I'm sure there may be some residual infection). There were a few spots that looked like white puffy lesions that are gone. 

What is not gone are the tiny white dots and now that all the fuzz and patches and such are mostly gone/gone, the mollies that were the worst have several (probably couldn't see them in the mess of infection before). The skirt tetras only have them on the fins (that I can see). I of course wouldn't be able to tell on the white or dalmatian mollies.

So unless there is something else that looks like that its ich and I need to treat that. I gather the advice is quit the peroxide and use a dye based ich treatment. Of the ones mentioned in my previous post, which should I try to get?

victoria green
malachite green
(found ones with those)
Methylene Blue which while I have not found yet locally, but I just read it treats superficial fungal infections so it would continue to help there. 


I assume I should not use potassium dichromate since it is an oxidizer?


----------



## jrman83

Peroxide will kill your beneficial bacteria as well. These are the colonies that are created once your tank has cycled and keep your tank safe. This is the danger of using it and why most people disconnect filters when using it.

Just a FYI.


----------



## ripit

jrman83 said:


> Peroxide will kill your beneficial bacteria as well. These are the colonies that are created once your tank has cycled and keep your tank safe. This is the danger of using it and why most people disconnect filters when using it.
> 
> Just a FYI.


I assumed that there would be a risk of that since oxidizers generally attack anything organic. With gram positive and gram negative antibiotics (that claim they will not harm it but there seems to be a little debate over it) on top of it, I figured I might be recycling the whole tank. 

Does Malachite green kill the beneficial bacteria too?

With how bad the fungus had over ran the tank, I didn't see much else for an option. Other fungicides for aquariums seem to have things like potassium dichromate which are also oxidizers so same risk I assume. I debated weather to run any of this stuff through the filter and decided, better to clean the filter of contamination too. 

Once the tank is more stable from disease, I think I will add more live plants. I have read several places that they minimize the cycle as they consume ammonia and nitrite. I also just read that they should be fast growing plants (didn't know that). I'm going to try and get another of the plants that I have in my smaller tank (not sure what it is). It grows like a weed and looks very nice. It has rapidly consumed 1/4-1/3 of the smaller tank but the fish seem to love it (some of the fish spend more time in the plant than they do swimming around) so for now I have left it. The one I just read was of a 38 gal that never experienced any ammonia or nitrite readings during cycling. Of course they used more than a dozen plants (more that I will) but obviously it helps. I have more seed material like gravel too. 

All I can do is hope for the best. water changes (maybe a little prime to reduce things), seed material and plants will help some I hope. I might have a dirty filter I can use to seed by then too.


----------



## SueD

A heavily planted tank will have a shortened cycle. Use plants like wisteria (hygrophila difformis) and hornwort. You can just float the hornwort and it will get messy but it is a very fast grower. You will probably not want to keep it for too long. Wisteria can be kept better with regular pruning. Just plant the tops again for new plantings.

As far as seed material, most of the beneficial bacteria live in filter media, less in gravel or other substrate, and very little on ornaments. If you can transfer some of the filter media from an established tank to the filter on the newly cycling tank, that would be better. You don't, of course, want to remove too much from the first tank and start a mini cycle there.

As far as using anything with dyes in them, I have no experience with these. Except that I know methalene blue is often used to prevent fungus on eggs when they are removed from a main tank and transferred to a separate tank for grow out. I believe this may be harder to remove and will permanently stain the silicone in your tank. That's also why some people use hydrogen peroxide instead, which dissipates within a day. You might want to double check with others more familiar with these products.


----------



## ripit

SueD said:


> A heavily planted tank will have a shortened cycle. Use plants like wisteria (hygrophila difformis) and hornwort. You can just float the hornwort and it will get messy but it is a very fast grower. You will probably not want to keep it for too long. Wisteria can be kept better with regular pruning. Just plant the tops again for new plantings.
> 
> As far as seed material, most of the beneficial bacteria live in filter media, less in gravel or other substrate, and very little on ornaments. If you can transfer some of the filter media from an established tank to the filter on the newly cycling tank, that would be better. You don't, of course, want to remove too much from the first tank and start a mini cycle there.
> 
> As far as using anything with dyes in them, I have no experience with these. Except that I know methalene blue is often used to prevent fungus on eggs when they are removed from a main tank and transferred to a separate tank for grow out. I believe this may be harder to remove and will permanently stain the silicone in your tank. That's also why some people use hydrogen peroxide instead, which dissipates within a day. You might want to double check with others more familiar with these products.


Turns out I already have wisteria (and I was wondering what it was so I could get more for the big tank so thanks). I searched it based on your recommendation and saw it was the same. Right now there is only one small piece of it in the problem tank but I have a huge one in another established tank. I was debating weather to trim off it to plant or get another one for the 55 gal that is having problems. It is overgrowing one side of the tank but the fish seem to love it so I was hesitant to trim it (I guess even if I trim it it will still keep growing like crazy). 

This is wisteria, right?






I also have these in the bad tank already





I had one more but when I drained the tank down to treat with antibiotics, I asked my wife to remove some of the plastic plants so the fish had room, and it got accidentally removed too. 


As far as seeding, I'll probably try to do most of what I did the first time with this tank. I'll stuff a new filter behind the old filter in the good tank and give it some time to setup bacteria, then use the old filter in the bad tanks filter to seed. The good tank also has plenty of gravel to spare. Last time I moved some decorations and plastic plants but there is less to spare this time. Once I know the tank is disease free, there is a fake rock (hollow underneath) with a fabric leaf plant that I will move (its the plecostamas's home so he will be coming with it).


----------



## navigator black

I'm in Canada, and I assume from the Petsmart purchase you are in the US. Brand names differ, and does medication availability. There's a standard from a US based company called 'rid-ich' that I have used with success. I haven't had Ich here often in the past few years, and when it has reared up, I go for the zap. I don't like the ingredients in rid-ich, but it works here.
In a pinch, straight up methelyne blue can often be found here in pharmacies, where it is sold with all the really old home remedies. I've used it as an anti-fungal for eggs.


----------



## ripit

After I got something and started treating and did a little more research that one looks like it might be better than what I got, but I haven't found it locally. By the time I could get it mail order it might not be needed (though I haven't searched really hard as I already got something). Mine only has malachite green as an active ingredient. Rid-ich has both formaldehyde and malachite green. I'm iffy about the formaldehyde. The combination does work better that malachite green alone (unless I'm mistaken I read that in a university study so I would think its reliable). Formaldehyde dehydrates the ich further disrupting their ability to reproduce, however it also dehydrates the fish too so it is more stressful to them. rid-ich plus uses "premium quality zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green" which acording to the manufacture is less toxic than malachite green (not sure if that is true) so maybe its a tradeoff. If nothing else it does work better with the formaldehyde. Can you tell I have been doing too much reading up about it all?


----------



## SueD

Yes, I believe what you have is wisteria - grows like a weed. Not sure what that other one is, but looks nice


----------



## beaslbob

NeonShark666 said:


> One of the best and easiest treatments for ich in Mollies is saltwater. Slowly increase your salt contnent and stop feeding. Once you reach an sp of around 1.020, stop adding salt and your fungus will gradually go away.


+1

kinda

I had a cottony fungus in some albino sailfing mollies. Pretty well coverted the entire fish. I just used aquarium salt per instructions and in 4 hours the white cottony sheets were falling off the fish.

my .02


----------



## ripit

beaslbob said:


> +1
> 
> kinda
> 
> I had a cottony fungus in some albino sailfing mollies. Pretty well coverted the entire fish. I just used aquarium salt per instructions and in 4 hours the white cottony sheets were falling off the fish.
> 
> my .02


If I would have had a decent way to separate the tetras from the mollies I probably would have done that too. I have heard very good things about it working and being the least stressful on the fish. 

Out of curiosity, I just got a 75 gallon tank given to me for free (no lights, filter or anything). Its also filthy (spider nests etc. as it was sitting out doors). I really don't have the money to buy equipment for it. I could clean it up and try to use it as a separate quarenteen for different fish but I'm not sure what I could do without equipment. I have already had the fish under treatment with the green dye stuff for about 24 hours with the recommended reduced amount for some fish types. 

Also, how many dots would a fish have if they had a bad case of ich? Most of mine don't have very many though the tetras are showing a few on their bodys now. I'm thinking the peroxide may have keep the problem minimized (it is supposed to effect or even treat ich). At the moment they seem healthy and happy (all of them including the ones that were very bad before). The white fuzz seems cleared from the tank and they look to be recovering great from the fuzz. They do have some white dots still though (many of them). 


I imagine some might be tired of my playing 20 questions, but how much do you feed mollies? I'm trying to be cautious about feeding too much but they seem to eat ravenously (and the sick ones have recovered enough to return to that behavior). I feed a little, wait a while to make sure they ate it all (nothing on the bottom or floating), then feed more and they are just as insanely hungry darting around like mad fish to get every bite and even fighting a bit over food. I guess I should feed more? their apatite seems to be along the lines of a huge pinch, not a little one. There are maybe a dozen mollies, a half dozen tetra and a couple of guppies (I know the guppies never ate anywhere near that much).


----------



## navigator black

I love mollies. I feed mine once a day, six days a week, with a vegetable based food. If I see them getting thin, I may go to twice a day short term. But they are superb foragers in an established tank. 
The only fish I have to feed twice a day are my wild swordtails. They need food as their growth is so fast, and I have mixed ages tanks.

There's not much you can do with the 75 yet, except keep an eye open for discarded or cheap filters. beaslbob will probably tell how to do his swamp fish thing, but as a quarantine tank, that would be hopeless.


----------



## ripit

I imagine at some point (don't really even have money for parts right now) I'll try out the home made canister filter thing. I already have some thoughts for a multi canister system if I can find the right parts cheap enough.

When you feed your mollies once a day, is it just a little pinch or much more? Mine seem to be able to go through a huge pinch in a few minutes (there are some tetras eating it too).


----------



## navigator black

I give my mollies a pinch that goes in 3-4 minutes - one that doesn't lie on the substrate. They are food hogs. If you take me to an all you can eat buffet, I will disgrace myself. If we do that every night, I'll end up overweight, unhealthy and will have an appetite for huge meals. I'll be like an overfed molly... 
You have to think about their long term health - obesity is a killer for a lot of fish. They will always appear hungry. Mine will storm the glass wiggling when they see me twenty minutes after I gave them a good meal. 

If you have your tank out of the way (a basement, etc) you can cheaply build a good 75 gallon filter. I have used the following plan. Get a powerhead, ideally a larger one. People sell them second hand a lot, as they are seen as extra equipment.
Get a plastic box, with a top, that fits on top of the tank. On a 4 foot 75, I used a box about one foot wide by two feet long - cheap at the hardware.
Drill a hole high up so a hose connected to the powerhead can pour water in. Warming the plastic slightly reduces the splitting cheap plastic is prone to in drilling. Drill a couple of small holes near the bases, set to pour the water back into the tank. That takes some fiddling, as you have to balance the flow to keep the water in the box at around an inch, no more. 
The water flows in, the water flows out. Below the 'in' put some polyester pillow batting to catch debris. Then add a bed of soap free plastic scrubber pads (the round ones) from a dollar store, lava rock, or any other cheap bacteria holding material. The box and its contents should run at about $12, and the powerhead is the only really expensive part ($30 or so new).
It's a good biological filter for large numbers of fry, etc.


----------



## ripit

navigator black said:


> I give my mollies a pinch that goes in 3-4 minutes - one that doesn't lie on the substrate. They are food hogs. If you take me to an all you can eat buffet, I will disgrace myself. If we do that every night, I'll end up overweight, unhealthy and will have an appetite for huge meals. I'll be like an overfed molly...
> You have to think about their long term health - obesity is a killer for a lot of fish. They will always appear hungry. Mine will storm the glass wiggling when they see me twenty minutes after I gave them a good meal.
> 
> If you have your tank out of the way (a basement, etc) you can cheaply build a good 75 gallon filter. I have used the following plan. Get a powerhead, ideally a larger one. People sell them second hand a lot, as they are seen as extra equipment.
> Get a plastic box, with a top, that fits on top of the tank. On a 4 foot 75, I used a box about one foot wide by two feet long - cheap at the hardware.
> Drill a hole high up so a hose connected to the powerhead can pour water in. Warming the plastic slightly reduces the splitting cheap plastic is prone to in drilling. Drill a couple of small holes near the bases, set to pour the water back into the tank. That takes some fiddling, as you have to balance the flow to keep the water in the box at around an inch, no more.
> The water flows in, the water flows out. Below the 'in' put some polyester pillow batting to catch debris. Then add a bed of soap free plastic scrubber pads (the round ones) from a dollar store, lava rock, or any other cheap bacteria holding material. The box and its contents should run at about $12, and the powerhead is the only really expensive part ($30 or so new).
> It's a good biological filter for large numbers of fry, etc.



What would be a good power head that I could get for $30? I had thought they cost a lot more than that?



Basically like a giant home made overflow filter (but it flows from top to bottom through the filter). I like the idea of of having something tank mount but I'm guessing you suspend the weight from a wall or something, not off the tank, right?


I actually had a lot more elaborate plans in mind (I do like building things) but due to the complexity and possible cost There is no telling if I'll ever get around to building it. I'll probably eventually wind up with a much simplified version of it. 

It will have a grid of the thinnest pvc pipe I can find for under gravel jets or something similar. I am debating on a top plate (like the tubes go under an under gravel filter or sheet of plexiglass with holes or something. Sub straight might be a mixture of expanded clay and gravel. Expanded clay are hard balls (fired clay same as terra cotta pots for plants) that expand internally when fired and are super porous. A couple of aquarium filter manufactures use them and claim they outperform ceramic media. They are often used on a larger scale (municipal water treatment plants etc). Expanded clay is 1/10-1/20 the cost of ceramic media. Flow will be reversible so debris in the sub straight can be blown into the water to be picked up by a top feeding filter (like any traditional filter) or sucked down directly into a filter. I do not know yet if the primary filter that runs all the time will flow through this or through a regular top feed like you normally would. I have a 12v marine pump that provides 300 gph at 50psi with a 35 foot maximum lift. It is not designed to be run all the time (I think). It would be good for quick cleans of the sub straight and or any debris in the tank. I might have to have a bipass to limit the flow (that a lot of power). A secondary pump would run all the time to provide normal filtration. Both pumps would share the same water system so that either can be used through the same lines. 


As for filters. Pvc ball valves would control which filters receive flow. A single system that can use either pump and flow can be turned on or off to any filter. I imagine they would be canister type design with 4" pvc pipe? It would have a trap filter similar to a regular trap in household plumbing with a bottom drain. Perhaps a screen would help keep large waste in the trap. The trap could be a pre filter to a secondary large debris filter, maybe a pool filter. A bio filter. I could have the ability to use more than one media but I defiantly want to try the expanded clay. I already have a small bag ordered to check out. A basic filter floss type of filter (maybe as a prefilter to the bio filter). Anything else? Maybe a carbon canister for removing medicine? The only main problem I see is if some filters are for occasional use, are they going to grow bad bacteria etc when sitting stagnant during times they are not in use? Air driven foam bio filter (like the 2$ one I just got off ebay that actually looks good for the price) or even a small overflow filter could supplement the system and or act as a bio buffer during filter changes. 


In reality, I'm thinking a simplified version that has the reversible jets and a single pump (though I do already have the marine pump for a secondary quick clean). It would just have the filter floss and bio filter (and perhaps a supplementary small overflow filter and or air driven sponge filters as they are cheap). It would be designed to be expandable to include all the above. I could probably even incorporate a power drain for water changes/large debris removal or even a power fill (maybe a holding/treatment tank for adding water)?


I know its insane. There are even more insane projects I never followed through on but sometimes I do actually follow through. I do really like the idea of enhanced bio filtering in the sub straight as well as the idea of just stirring up the gravel and letting a pump suck all the large debris out. 


Am I crazy?


----------



## ripit

On to more pressing matters though. The malachite green colored the water but the color is gone within hours. I was wondering if something in my system was eliminating or neutralizing it? I tried searching on it and found someone say that malachite green is only a 4 hour treatment that can be repeated often? I am only treating every 2 days as that is what the bottle said to do. It also said Formalin is longer term treatment. Some treatments have both but mine only has malachite green. I did read that both together work better than just one. Should I switch to something that has both? I could also use a treatment that only has Formalin in addition (I did find some like that). If the malachite green only last for hour then that leaves huge windows open for the ich to reproduce. Most of the white dots were gone in 1 day+ but there are still a few stray ones (plus perhaps some in gills I can not see). I only takes one for another outbreak to happen...


----------



## navigator black

I would stay the course on the meds. Once you pick it, you go the whole cycle with it. You're more likely to kill your fish by mixing meds than not.

I sit my boxes on the rim of the tank. It's little weight with plastic media inside, and an inch of water is nothing. It just flows on through...you can drill the bottom for a straight drop, or low on the side for a jet. It's very low tech, but a few years ago I was stuck with a pile of koi and big goldfish, and I got them through the winter and back to the pond with a filter of that sort. It's a power filter with a huge media possibility. 

In the US, you guys get cheap equipment. I like the maxi jet 1200. I looked up That Fish Place and it's under $20 there. It's $35 at my local store. I never see things cheaper in the chain pet stores in the US than they are in Canada, but online, your prices are depressing for me.


----------



## ripit

navigator black said:


> I would stay the course on the meds. Once you pick it, you go the whole cycle with it. You're more likely to kill your fish by mixing meds than not.
> 
> I sit my boxes on the rim of the tank. It's little weight with plastic media inside, and an inch of water is nothing. It just flows on through...you can drill the bottom for a straight drop, or low on the side for a jet. It's very low tech, but a few years ago I was stuck with a pile of koi and big goldfish, and I got them through the winter and back to the pond with a filter of that sort. It's a power filter with a huge media possibility.
> 
> In the US, you guys get cheap equipment. I like the maxi jet 1200. I looked up That Fish Place and it's under $20 there. It's $35 at my local store. I never see things cheaper in the chain pet stores in the US than they are in Canada, but online, your prices are depressing for me.



Yea it looks like that power head is a lot more locally here but I see some pretty good prices online. I also like that it is convertible. Thanks for the info. 

I'm not really planning on changing treatment but rather adding to it with a safe addition. I'm not going from a dye to copper or to and oxidizer like potassium permanganate. I'm just switching to another brand with the same main dye ingredient. The one I was using had malachite green. The new one has malachite green and formalin (actually I got 2, one with malachite green and formalin and one with zinc free malachite green and formalin). I ran to petsmart but also stopped by a couple of smaller local pet stores in the area where people seem more knowledgeable. The general consensus was just what I found online. Malachite green only treats for a matter of several hours. Using it once every 2 days as the label suggests would leave more than a day and a half each time with nothing active to kill the ich or at least an under does to be effective (maybe their way of selling more, it was already very dilute so it didn't treat much either). 

The fish store that seems most knowledgeable said that was way to long to go between treatments. They also said the different products in question are basically the same thing, just different brands. Its still uses malachite green which is what I'm already treating with but adds formalin which helps kill when the malachite green isn't actively working. I had already read (I think in a study) that both together works much better than either alone. 

One of the ones I got is kordon rid ich plus with zinc free chloride salt of malachite green (which according to the manufacture is the same as malachite green with the zinc removed making it as effective but less toxic to fish) and formalin. It says to treat every 24 hours or 12 hours for more severe cases. Is said do not reduce dosage. It only treats 200 gallons so I could see worst case senerio, running out just before treatment is over (with a 55 gal tank so only 3 treatments or 4 that are a little short). The other has malachite green and formalin. They said it could be mixed with the others (not double dosed, just alternated without problems). It treats 400 gallons for half the price so its just a backup if things carry on for a while and I run low on rid ich plus.


----------



## beaslbob

navigator black said:


> I love mollies. I feed mine once a day, six days a week, with a vegetable based food. If I see them getting thin, I may go to twice a day short term. But they are superb foragers in an established tank.
> The only fish I have to feed twice a day are my wild swordtails. They need food as their growth is so fast, and I have mixed ages tanks.
> 
> There's not much you can do with the 75 yet, except keep an eye open for discarded or cheap filters. beaslbob will probably tell how to do his swamp fish thing, but as a quarantine tank, that would be hopeless.


I would still take a look at the link in my signature anyway. IMHO a planted quarantine is a very good idea. *old dude

my .02


----------



## navigator black

beaslbob - if you get a fish in from the store that through no fault of your own needs treatment, a lot of the necessary meds will slaughter plants. That in turn kills the filtration in a tank set-up like yours. That's why I wouldn't suggest it.

Ich and flukes hit the gills too, and you will see the fish go for the current as they struggle to breathe.


----------



## beaslbob

navigator black said:


> beaslbob - if you get a fish in from the store that through no fault of your own needs treatment, a lot of the necessary meds will slaughter plants. That in turn kills the filtration in a tank set-up like yours. That's why I wouldn't suggest it.
> 
> Ich and flukes hit the gills too, and you will see the fish go for the current as they struggle to breathe.


Actually I said quarantine tank(QT).

You comments are correct for a hospital tank. Mainly because the plants will suck out the medications.

But if you get reasonably healthy fish from the store. Like you actually looked at them and they seemed healthy. Then a planted QT will prevent the ammonia spikes, remove co2, add oxygen. All of which will reduce or eliminate stress to the fish, keeping it's immune system healthy and strong and keep the fish healty from the start.

By contrast if you have a "bare" QT and add fish you run the risk of fish stressing cycles which reduce the immune system and actually encourage problems.

But then that could be why I have little to no sickness problems with my planted tanks both FW and marine.

Still Just my .02


----------



## ripit

While I like some of the ideas with that setup and would like to read a little more of that thread, I'm thinking I would be more likely to incorporate some of the good ideas into a setup that still uses a filter. I'm guessing with that setup, the plants are the fish food?


So I do have another question (I'm going to go ahead and do it but can reverse it if its a bad idea). My canister filter can be converted to a water polishing filter. I would have to remove the parts for biological filtration and replace them with the polishing filter. I read that they can remove a lot of the ich (not all but a lot and I'm guessing it might be able to get fungus spores too). This will eliminate biological filtration from the canister filter but I'm guessing most of the bacteria is dead from all the medicines. I am doing a large water change first (at least half). I was thinking that I could just stick the bio filter part in a bucket with an air stone and aquarium water (no host so the ick in that bucket should die and if there is any bacterial left it can continue to grow. 

Is this a bad idea?


Edit: Actually the foam sleeve from the bio filter can go over the polishing filter so it will have some bio if there is any left.


----------



## beaslbob

ripit said:


> While I like some of the ideas with that setup and would like to read a little more of that thread, I'm thinking I would be more likely to incorporate some of the good ideas into a setup that still uses a filter. I'm guessing with that setup, the plants are the fish food?
> 
> ...
> ?


Actually I do still add food, but the plants do recycle the fish waste into oxygen and fish food. But IME not enough to balance out the system to where you don't have to add food. But fry can get food from the plants and the tank can actually go for up to 3 weeks IME with no food being added.


my .02


----------



## susankat

That is a load of crap bob and you know it. Plants will not take up the meds, the meds can and do destroy plants.

With fry you don't want to let them go 3 weeks without food. You will start loosing fry as they get weak and die. For optimul growth you feed them daily, sometimes a couple of days a week.


----------



## beaslbob

susankat said:


> That is a load of crap bob and you know it. Plants will not take up the meds, the meds can and do destroy plants.


ref. ScienceDirect.com - Bioresource Technology - Heavy metal adsorption properties of a submerged aquatic plant (Ceratophyllum demersum) along with many many other references


> Abstract
> Heavy metals can be adsorbed by living or non-living biomass. Submerged aquatic plants can be used for the removal of heavy metals. In this paper, lead, zinc, and copper adsorption properties of Ceratophyllum demersum (Coontail or hornwort) were investigated and results were compared with other aquatic submerged plants. Data obtained from the initial adsorption studies indicated that C. demersum was capable of removing lead, zinc, and copper from solution. The metal biosorption was fast and equilibrium was attained within 20 min. Data obtained from further batch studies conformed well to the Langmuir Model. Maximum adsorption capacities (qmax) onto C. demersum were 6.17 mg/g for Cu(II), 13.98 mg/g for Zn(II) and 44.8 mg/g for Pb(II). Kinetics of adsorption of zinc, lead and copper were analysed and rate constants were derived for each metal. It was found that the overall adsorption process was best described by pseudo second-order kinetics. The results showed that this submerged aquatic plantC. demersum can be successfully used for heavy metal removal under dilute metal concentration.


Seem like copper is a very common med.

Actually plants will remove crap also. *old dude

To me not realizing that plants filter out just about anything dissolved in the water as they take in nutrients is really really ignorant. In fact biosorbtion is used by environmental engineers to clean up industrial wastes and toxic waste sites.

the meds in our tanks are just a very very small subset of that action.





susankat said:


> With fry you don't want to let them go 3 weeks without food. You will start loosing fry as they get weak and die. For optimul growth you feed them daily, sometimes a couple of days a week.


Absolutely! thank God there is food (snail eggs, algae, infosoria) on the plants for them to eat. *old dude

my .02


----------



## jrman83

Many meds will say right on the label...."not safe with live plants" Just don't try to come here and sell your tanks as healthier than anyone else's. Your (beasl) methods can have issues just like anyone else's, as proven by at least one guy who went your route and had ich so bad it nearly wiped his fish. And worse, if you do get something in the tank and you have gone the no filter or powerhead method, you have no way of disbursing the med. Plus, most meds need contant circulation. Maybe not everyone has your eagle eye for healthy fish. I am sure the OP appreciates your advice of "pick healthier fish next time"

I don't agree that mixing meds is bad. Maybe as a general rule, sure. Most of the more effective meds on the market today, like quick cure for one, is a mixture of meds. There are quite a few of them that are a mixture. I have read blogs from a person that was a Nurse that was doing great things mixing dipping solutions that was doing things like curing columnaris.....something that may be one of the more tougher diseases. she used to come onto Guppy.com quite a bit and talk about some of the things she had tried. Some may be dangerous and trial and error, but she was having success.


----------



## jrman83

beaslbob said:


> Seem like copper is a very common med.
> 
> Actually plants will remove crap also. *old dude
> 
> To me not realizing that plants filter out just about anything dissolved in the water as they take in nutrients is really really ignorant. In fact biosorbtion is used by environmental engineers to clean up industrial wastes and toxic waste sites.
> 
> the meds in our tanks are just a very very small subset of that action.
> 
> Absolutely! thank God there is food (snail eggs, algae, infosoria) on the plants for them to eat. *old dude


LOL, calling Susan "really, really ignorant". Don't bite the hand that feeds you. I think she is about the only friend you have on the Mod/Admin side and probably has a lot to do with you still being allowed to post here. You can venture down that road of self-rightousness if you want to.....

Aside from that, if you did much reading you would see that most people don't use meds anymore that contain copper, especially if they have inverts as even very tiny amounts can kill them. They are readily available but everyone I have talked to has never used them and recommend not to. Most people on here that have, have usually killed their fish doing it. I know it is a paradigm for you probably.

A planted QT idea is about the most ignorant thing that has come out of you though, if that is possible. For one, many meds will do as NB said - kill the plants. Second, if you have a QT tank and you use it, then it should already be cycled. Third, even if it wasn't ammonia spikes and such are usually not any kind of issue treating 1-2 fish. In general, it is a waste of plants. They don't make the meds work better and if plants do remove meds like you think, isn't it even more stupid to have plants if it kills the med effectiveness? Isn't it a contradiction to what you are trying to do - cure the fish?

Anyway, no need to answer. Read enough of your stupid bull**** today.


----------



## beaslbob

Jr

Just as a reminder:




beaslbob said:


> Actually I said quarantine tank(QT).
> 
> *You comments are correct for a hospital tank*. Mainly because the plants will suck out the medications.
> 
> ...


It is very very common on these boards and IME in the industry for people to be ignorant of just how much the plants suck out of the water. I don't consider ignorance a fault. So I simply provided the first link I found from a scientific study on the subject on a google search.

As I stated it is very common for people to overlook that plant action and concentrate on the ammonia/nitrate/phosphate/co2 and o2 actions.

So I hope people reading my post will consider the facts presented. And also realize ignorance is not a fault and my post was not a personal attack.

I'm ignorant also. All I can do is present my experience. And occasionally back it up with scientific studies and basic botany/biology knowns. 

Perhaps it is my ignorance that tells me those actions are not acceptable.

still just my .02


----------



## susankat

Lol be careful what you say bob.

For one, I have seen tanks that the copper has remained and never been able to put a snail or invert in the tank for years to come. It goes into the silcone and can never be removed.

Plants might remove watered down meds that are available today. But you need to do more research than one place that is outdated as you are. And yes you are an ignorant so and so because you aren't willing to learn things that are working for others but want to push outdated and ugly setups on anyone that is new and you hope that they haven't run into your BS before.


----------



## jrman83

QT and hospital are usually one in the same. Most dont run both. IME, lol. I really wonder how much you have. Everything is used to be and nothing current tor you.


----------



## ripit

Treatment is going good though it looks like I may have poisoned a fish. I have treated for 2 days past the last seen ich spot so I'll probably do at least 2 days more. The fish seem happy enough and healthy enough, swimming around and eating (and some fighting, I wonder if the meds are making them irritable). One molly has developed an arched spine. I searched on it and I'm guessing the most likely cause is toxins. I have been doing 50-70% water changes once a day right before the next dose of meds so I'm thinking its the medicine. I really don't know what to do (my quarenteen tank is taken by guarantee replacement fish for dead fish from petsmart). 

A couple of the black mollies still have patches but my best guess is it's damage from the fungus (it was very, very bad on some). They are not white but rather a slight white tint over black looking. They are not fuzzy and do not seem to be getting worse. The locations seem to correlate with where the fungus was (I think). 

I did drain 1 5 gal bucket and refill to slightly reduce the amount of medicine. I guess there is not much I can do for the fish with the arched spine? If he still has ich and I stop treatment?


----------



## ripit

So how long should I be treating for? I have treated for 7-8 days (not including the peroxide which may have reduced the ich but didn't seem to eliminate it). I actually switched meds mid stream. The first was Malachite green alone in half doses, 2 days apart (probably too long as I have found out it only lasts a matter of hours but that's what the bottle instructed). I then treated 2-3 doses (pretty sure it was 3) with rid ick plus which is zinc free Malachite green with formalin (supposed to be much more effective together than Malachite green alone). The zinc free is supposed to be less toxic to fish. I treated 24 hours apart full dose as instructed. I then treated with another Malachite green formalin product (I was running low on rid ich plus and this was a lot more concentrated so it treated a lot more) at half dose as instructed. 

So thats 2 half doses Malachite green, 3 full doses Malachite green and formalin, and 2 half doses Malachite green and formalin over maybe 8 days. It has been 3-4 days since I have been able to see any ich spots. Is that enough to be safe that its gone? Fyi I switched to a micron filter maybe 3 days ago (which is supposed to trap any ich that passes through the filter). 

The half doses were instructions for sensitive fish. The rid ich said do not reduce dosage while the others said half dose for sensitive fish.

All the fish seem fine and reasonably healthy except for 1 white molly that died. I am fairly certain that was a toxic reaction to the meds (the rest seem to be handling it fine).


----------

