# First saltwater tank



## zakk2626

Hello, I'm looking to start my first saltwater tank. I've had some small freshwater tanks in the past. I'm taking marine biology this year, and I'm learning a lot about marine life. I've decided to start off with a ten gallon tank, just for practice, and I will quickly upgrade my tank. I'm just really confused about all the different kinds of filtration and everything else. Just looking for some guidance. Anything helps. Thanks!


----------



## jbhillman

zakk2626 said:


> Hello, I'm looking to start my first saltwater tank. I've had some small freshwater tanks in the past. I'm taking marine biology this year, and I'm learning a lot about marine life. I've decided to start off with a ten gallon tank, just for practice, and I will quickly upgrade my tank. I'm just really confused about all the different kinds of filtration and everything else. Just looking for some guidance. Anything helps. Thanks!


Read everything you can get your hands on before you buy anything. It will save you a lot of grief later. this is not an easy hobby. It is also very expensive.


----------



## Reefing Madness

zakk2626 said:


> Hello, I'm looking to start my first saltwater tank. I've had some small freshwater tanks in the past. I'm taking marine biology this year, and I'm learning a lot about marine life. I've decided to start off with a ten gallon tank, just for practice, and I will quickly upgrade my tank. I'm just really confused about all the different kinds of filtration and everything else. Just looking for some guidance. Anything helps. Thanks!


Easy steps are this:
Skimmer rated at twice your water volume, perhaps the most important piece of equipment you'll have to buy. Live Rock or Macro Rock, at least 1.5lbs per gallon for a fish only tank, 2lbs per gallon + for a Reef tank, as this is your filter. You will not need a mechanical filter for you tank, not any tank you own. Powerheads or a Water pump to move water in the tank, 10x your water volume for a fish only tank, and 20x plus for a Reef tank. IE, I hav a 240g tank with 4 powerheads, 2 @ 3200gph and 2 @ 1200gph = 8800 total gph. Refractometer for testing salinity of the water. Heater. 1-2" Sand or Crushed Coral Bed, or possibly a Bare Bottom Tank, your choice there. Lighting, your choice is FIsh Only tank, Reef lighting gets tricky, I'll just throw out numbers for T-5 and Power Compact and Halides because LED are different, you need to start out at 4 watts per gallon, at least for Soft Corals, and the requirements go up from there. LED being the best, Halides, T-5 then Power Coompacts. RO/DI System is recommended but not needed, this will keep you from getting into an algae problem. Saltwater testing kit, basic, Ammonia, Nitrites,Nitrates,Calcium.
Calcium, KH, GH, pH, Electrolytes & Magnesium in Aquariums; Mineral Ions, Cations
Chemistry And The Aquarium: Solving Calcium And Alkalinity Problems — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
LED Aquarium Lights, Lighting; emitters, PUR, DIY, more | Aquarium Article Digest
Aquarium Lighting; Reef, Planted Light Information. PAR, Bulb, Watt, Kelvin, Nanometers, MH, LED.
samsreef.com - PAR readings - How much light?


----------



## beaslbob

zakk2626 said:


> Hello, I'm looking to start my first saltwater tank. I've had some small freshwater tanks in the past. I'm taking marine biology this year, and I'm learning a lot about marine life. I've decided to start off with a ten gallon tank, just for practice, and I will quickly upgrade my tank. I'm just really confused about all the different kinds of filtration and everything else. Just looking for some guidance. Anything helps. Thanks!


I would do a saltwater equilivant of a freshwater planted tank using caulerpa prolifera which is a marine macro algae.

to keep things inexpensive use landscape lava type rocks and play sand.

Start the tank with the macro algae and let it condition the water for a week or two.

And use a common male molly you aclimate to saltwater as the first fish. and don't add food for a week after adding the molly.

then continue with the more or less normal marine tanks with clowns for instance.

With the marco algae I would not add any crabs as they eat the macros.

my .02


----------



## Reefing Madness

:huh:
First off, you do not use caulerpa prolifera , it goes asexual and your going to have a bunch of issues gettin it out of the tank, it will virtually take over. Cheato on the other hand will nt do that, and is just as effective. You do not just throw Macro Algae into your main tank, first of all it tends to make your tank look ghetto! And that should be left to advancing persons in the hobby, not beginners, as this should be kept in a sump or hang on fuge. Now, start the tank with it, and let it conditon the water??? What the heck is it going to condition? If RO/DI was used, its not going to condition anything.
You never use Play Sand! It has to many silicates and glass in it, if he decides he wants a sand sifter down the road, you've pretty much shot any chance of the thing surviving in that. The poor things belly will get chewed up in short order. NO PLAY SAND. 
You do not cycle a tank with fish, mollys or other wise, the Ammonia and Nitrites that will start in that tank will surely torture the fish if not kill it!
Do not use anything that says LAVE ROCK in the word, beginners will take that literally, and put in Live Rock, make no mistake, you can not use Lava Rock, there is no telling what kind of metals or other materials are in that rock. This being the case, if he decides to put corals in the tank later on, again you will have shot down any means of him being able to keep them.
Your methods and ideas are very suspect, and I would not be delivering them to a new Saltwater Aquarist, as you are surely out to kill everything in his tank for him.


----------



## beaslbob

Reefing Madness said:


> :
> 
> ...
> 
> as you are surely out to kill everything in his tank for him.


Obviously you're not talking to me.

After all using $5 worth of fast growing macro algaes to prevent ammonia and nitrIte spikes after adding that first fish, Woud not be designed to kill everything in the tank. *old dude


my .02


----------



## Reefing Madness

beaslbob said:


> Obviously you're not talking to me.
> 
> After all using $5 worth of fast growing macro algaes to prevent ammonia and nitrIte spikes after adding that first fish, Woud not be designed to kill everything in the tank. *old dude
> 
> 
> my .02


Yup, I sure am talking to you. Your making this to easy makin you look bad. At least do some home work before you post something that bad. And you may not take any of my words out of context and think that will get you points with anyone. Are you kidding me!! If that stuff goes asexual on him, no, it won't kill the tank, he will, trying to get that crap out!! Cheato on the other hand will not go asexual and take over the tank, do some research first before you start giving advise on Saltwater!! The OP states he's a beginner, you do not line him up with a bunch of garbage that will mess up his tank!!! Nothing in my second post is wrong. And it was directed at you!!
*old dude*whip*


----------



## beaslbob

Reefing Madness said:


> Yup, I sure am talking to you. Your making this to easy makin you look bad. At least do some home work before you post something that bad. And you may not take any of my words out of context and think that will get you points with anyone. Are you kidding me!! If that stuff goes asexual on him, no, it won't kill the tank, he will, trying to get that crap out!! Cheato on the other hand will not go asexual and take over the tank, do some research first before you start giving advise on Saltwater!! The OP states he's a beginner, you do not line him up with a bunch of garbage that will mess up his tank!!! Nothing in my second post is wrong. And it was directed at you!!
> *old dude*whip*



and here is a post from a newbie



fastuno said:


> 07/13/2004, 10:01 PM
> I would like to take this time to formally thank beaslbob for his persistent recommendation of macro algae & his perseverance in convincing me that they are beneficial to a productive reef community. As per his suggestion I have added the macros at day one of my cycle & have been dumbfounded at the results. At day 8-10 my levels dropped down to 0/0/0. Nowadays I only see small traces of nitrites (.1ppm), a phenomena which I am further investigating.
> 
> Beaslbob you are a man of knowledge & experience, willing to put yourself at the forefront. Willing to take risk even when in contempt by others. I applaud you for that. It is through this type of thinking that will move the field of reefing forward.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


so as I stated before certainly you're not stating that $5 worth of macros to prevent ammonia spikes, consume carbon dioxide and return oxygen and fish food is bad advice.


----------



## Reefing Madness

beaslbob said:


> and here is a post from a newbie
> 
> 
> 
> so as I stated before certainly you're not stating that $5 worth of macros to prevent ammonia spikes, consume carbon dioxide and return oxygen and fish food is bad advice.


LOL. Just til the day comes when that guy comes looking for you with a baseball bat, because his culpera went asexual and he can't get it out of his tank. Please....you want me to start with the facts on your posts?? Are uou kiding me?? I can back up my posts, and the outcome from those tanks doesn't have anything to do with GHETTO!!! Or steering someone into putting Crap into their tanks!! Research old boy, research!!! Not B.S.


----------



## beaslbob

zakk2626 


Now you have an obvious disagreements between reef keepers. and One that has been going on forever.

What reef madness is talking about is macro algaes have either an aseuxual (spores) or sexual (gammites?) form of reproduction in addition to the common vegative type with runners and cuttings and so on. With that type of reporduction the varous caulerpas do cloud up the tank and create a mess.

This has even happened to me while I ran my 55g mixed reef for about 8 years. One time only. And that happened with a batch of macros that were in the mail for 3-4 days. the tank clouded up then cleared in a week but all the new macros were lost. fortunately other macros were there.

People in the reef hobby IMHO will recommend skimmers, refugiums/sumps, ro/di water, live sand and live rock. And I am sure that all of that will result in successful tanks.

But by starting your 10g with macro algaes non of that is needed. For instance instead of paying $5-$10 a pound for live rock you can use landscape rocks from a local limestone quarry that cost $20 per ton. or even just lava landscape rocks. Instead of expensive reef live sand you can just use play sand at $3 for 50 pound bags.

Then you can discuss this with your marine biology instructor. Who will already know this is not B. S.


----------



## Reefing Madness

So, with this you finally admit being WRONG!! And Cheato is a better choice. Now on to the rest of your rantings perhaps. Try and back up your Play Sand idea. Now, keep in mind that at any point here I can pull up several articles to throw at you, to disprove your somewhat off the wall ideas. Its all yours chief, please try and get it rght this time, your making this to easy. And so please tell, that there is no telling if or when your Culpera will go asexual, therefore makig it just a flat out risk. Mat people don't want to go pulling algae out of their tank, just because you dong want to admit you made a mistake with which algae a person should use. Or perhaps down the road the OP wants a bottom dwelling fish, and can't have one because of his sand bed, which by the way was advised o him to do. By a person who should not be advising anyone about saltwater tanks. Short. Cuts will most certainly run afoul in someones tank, would you at that point take respo sibility for that mishp, and reimburse that person because of your hair brained ideas? As I stated earlier, I on the other hand can back up that which I advise! Oh, and please let's not forget your throwing Lava Rock into the conversation, can't wait to hear that one.


----------



## phil_n_fish

the both of you just need to take a chill pill jeez lol jbhillman just wanted to know the different kinds of filtration. 

alrighty then, here's the answer to your question:
There are three kinds of filtration in a fish tank,
1. mechanical- A method of physically removing visible, large particles from the water using filter floss or sponge.

2. chemical- the use of carbon, ammonia chips, chemipure, etc to remove dissolved substances like fish waste and oily residue from food.

3. biological- the process of micro organisms eating ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and other kinds of bacteria/waste. biological filtration can be found in live rock, filter sponges, sand, etc. 

For a beginner, I would just use a hang on filter or if you want to spend alittle bit more money and feel pro, buy a canister filter which both offer all three filtration. If using mechanical, I recommend using filter floss because it's cheap like $3 for a big bag and it can last for almost a month. You will have to change it atleast once a week.

Using carbon is the basic, easy way to remove dissolved substance, but it can only hold so much before it starts leaching out what it absorbed. Just replace it when you feel its full. If you want to move up a step, you can buy a $14 jar of chemipure(found at petco) which will hold much more for a longer time*lasts up to 3 months. its pricier but it will keep your tank clean. 

PROTEIN SKIMMERS are amazing and the heart of getting rid of dissolved substances. it is also an alternative for running carbon. its even better running both. it removes protein down to the molecular level. For a ten gallon, you can buy one for as low as 30 bucks. its worth it. 

biological filtration is the most important part. It determines if your fish will live. It includes the nitrogen cycle. Fish produce ammonia, ammonia is eaten by nitrite bacteria, then eaten by nitrate bacteria which is the least harmful, and then dies off or is eaten by other beneficial bacteria that you would hear in a marine bio class. 

Just follow these three kinds of filtration when choosing a filter and you will start off with a great time in the saltwater hobby. Dont think about the price of the filtration, think about the experience you will learn


----------



## beaslbob

phil_n_fish said:


> the both of you just need to take a chill pill
> 
> ...


Agreed

One of the real problems to people entering the saltwater hobby is all the passionate advice that caused newbies to view this hobby as expensive, confusing, and difficult.
I hope Zak is not so discouraged he gives up.

my .02


----------



## jbhillman

beaslbob said:


> Agreed
> One of the real problems to people entering the saltwater hobby is all the passionate advice that caused newbies to view this hobby as expensive, confusing, and difficult.
> I hope Zak is not so discouraged he gives up.
> my .02


Lets see just how expensive this is for a beginner (me).

75 gallon Tank with light and cover $175
Led light since the original light wasn't bright enough. $359
60 lbs cultured live rock 15 lbs live 45 lbs base $183
24 lbs fugi live rock (one magnificent looking piece) $139
API saltwater master test kit $18
Salifert test kits for PH, Calcium, phosphate, Dkh/Alk $112
29 gallon sump TANK given to me $0
29 gallon QT tank $100
15 lbs live sand, 105 pounds argonite sand $140
heater $40
hydrometer $14
refractometer $50
ph meter and supplies $135
2 power heads 750 gph ea $100
pump $75
protein skimmer $200
Hang on overflow $40
detrius filter medium $20
salt $50
air pump $12
tank siphon $18
bioballs for wet/dry filter $28


That's $2008 and in spite of this, my first $200 worth of fish died within a month.  This is not a hobby to take lightly. With much experience you might be able to get away with taking shortcuts, but a beginner MUST do it right the first time. The above does not include various water conditioners and treatments or supplements needed. And I am sure I left some things out.


----------



## Reefing Madness

jbhillman said:


> Lets see just how expensive this is for a beginner (me).
> 
> 75 gallon Tank with light and cover $175
> Led light since the original light wasn't bright enough. $359
> 60 lbs cultured live rock 15 lbs live 45 lbs base $183
> 24 lbs fugi live rock (one magnificent looking piece) $139
> API saltwater master test kit $18
> Salifert test kits for PH, Calcium, phosphate, Dkh/Alk $112
> 29 gallon sump TANK given to me $0
> 29 gallon QT tank $100
> 15 lbs live sand, 105 pounds argonite sand $140
> heater $40
> hydrometer $14
> refractometer $50
> ph meter and supplies $135
> 2 power heads 750 gph ea $100
> pump $75
> protein skimmer $200
> Hang on overflow $40
> detrius filter medium $20
> salt $50
> air pump $12
> tank siphon $18
> bioballs for wet/dry filter $28
> 
> 
> That's $2008 and in spite of this, my first $200 worth of fish died within a month. This is not a hobby to take lightly. With much experience you might be able to get away with taking shortcuts, but a beginner MUST do it right the first time. The above does not include various water conditioners and treatments or supplements needed. And I am sure I left some things out.


Very well put sir, very well put.


----------



## joe2011

if you take it slow an do a lot of reading you will fine .stuff will happen no matter how good your are or how good you think you are lol .


----------



## beaslbob

zakk2626 said:


> Hello, I'm looking to start my first saltwater tank. I've had some small freshwater tanks in the past. I'm taking marine biology this year, and I'm learning a lot about marine life. I've decided to start off with a ten gallon tank, just for practice, and I will quickly upgrade my tank. I'm just really confused about all the different kinds of filtration and everything else. Just looking for some guidance. Anything helps. Thanks!


for a simple tank

10g tank $15
incandesdent hood $20
spiral screw in 6500k lights $6
play sand $3
crushed oyster shells $6
salt mix $10
landscape lava rocks $2.00
silicon caulk $6.
caulerpa prolifera 0-$5
first fish $2.00 (molly)
Fish food $8

(total needed for maintain tank for about a year).


$83.

put sand in, add oyster shells bout 1-2" both total.

put in and glue together lava rocks

let setup.

add water and mix in salt.

add caulerpa and lights
wait one week to insure macro is growing.

slowly acclimate and add male molly
don't add food for a week.
start feeding 1 flake per day.

After a month or so you can add marine fish.

Don't do water changes just replace evaporative water.

go to marine biology teacher and explain what you did. 
Get brownie points from teacher.

my .02


----------



## jrman83

With all my tanks....I don't look to go the cheapest way possible. That is like buying a car that will only go from point A to point B. I would rather do what I needed to make it right - forget the cost.


----------



## jbhillman

beaslbob said:


> for a simple tank
> 
> 10g tank $15
> incandesdent hood $20
> spiral screw in 6500k lights $6
> play sand $3
> crushed oyster shells $6
> salt mix $10
> landscape lava rocks $2.00
> silicon caulk $6.
> caulerpa prolifera 0-$5
> first fish $2.00 (molly)
> Fish food $8
> 
> (total needed for maintain tank for about a year).
> 
> 
> $83.
> 
> put sand in, add oyster shells bout 1-2" both total.
> 
> put in and glue together lava rocks
> 
> let setup.
> 
> add water and mix in salt.
> 
> add caulerpa and lights
> wait one week to insure macro is growing.
> 
> slowly acclimate and add male molly
> don't add food for a week.
> start feeding 1 flake per day.
> 
> After a month or so you can add marine fish.
> 
> Don't do water changes just replace evaporative water.
> 
> go to marine biology teacher and explain what you did.
> Get brownie points from teacher.
> 
> my .02


What you are promoting might work. Then again, the experts in the field advise against this approach. 
But he can try it and all he will be out is the $83 and the time.


----------



## Reefing Madness

beaslbob said:


> for a simple tank
> 
> 10g tank $15
> incandesdent hood $20
> spiral screw in 6500k lights $6
> play sand $3
> crushed oyster shells $6
> salt mix $10
> landscape lava rocks $2.00
> silicon caulk $6.
> caulerpa prolifera 0-$5
> first fish $2.00 (molly)
> Fish food $8
> 
> (total needed for maintain tank for about a year).
> 
> 
> $83.
> 
> put sand in, add oyster shells bout 1-2" both total.
> 
> put in and glue together lava rocks
> 
> let setup.
> 
> add water and mix in salt.
> 
> add caulerpa and lights
> wait one week to insure macro is growing.
> 
> slowly acclimate and add male molly
> don't add food for a week.
> start feeding 1 flake per day.
> 
> After a month or so you can add marine fish.
> 
> Don't do water changes just replace evaporative water.
> 
> go to marine biology teacher and explain what you did.
> Get brownie points from teacher.
> 
> my .02


*WARNING TO READERS!!!*
I'm tellin ya right now, No one, I mean No one!!! Should follow this advise, unless you just plan on killing your fish, and having an endless headache!!
Warning to New Saltwater Aquarists, this list is exactly what you want to do to mess up your tank. 
You have all been WARNED: Oh, and by all means, go to a BIOLOGIST (one of whom I'm guessing we all know???!!!!) 
Sorry guys, I can't let this guys throw this kind of GARBAGE out there for new people to see, and possibly use. Just ain't no way I'm just going to sit back and read this kind of Lunacy!!


----------



## Paul B

> One of the real problems to people entering the saltwater hobby is all the passionate advice that caused newbies to view this hobby as expensive, confusing, and difficult.


This is true



> Lets see just how expensive this is for a beginner (me).
> 
> 75 gallon Tank with light and cover $175
> Led light since the original light wasn't bright enough. $359
> 60 lbs cultured live rock 15 lbs live 45 lbs base $183
> 24 lbs fugi live rock (one magnificent looking piece) $139
> API saltwater master test kit $18
> Salifert test kits for PH, Calcium, phosphate, Dkh/Alk $112
> 29 gallon sump TANK given to me $0
> 29 gallon QT tank $100
> 15 lbs live sand, 105 pounds argonite sand $140
> heater $40
> hydrometer $14
> refractometer $50
> ph meter and supplies $135
> 2 power heads 750 gph ea $100
> pump $75
> protein skimmer $200
> Hang on overflow $40
> detrius filter medium $20
> salt $50
> air pump $12
> tank siphon $18
> bioballs for wet/dry filter $28


This hobby can be very expensive or very cheap.
I don't use 3/4 of that equipment you listed and my mixed 40 year old reef is doing just fine.
Also no one can quote scientific journals to me because I do my own research and have been doing it since before any of the researchers were born. 
I forget how I started my reef but it was probably with a dead shrimp, but it could have been with a live blue claw crab that I later ate or a lobster.
The water I collected from the East River. The rocks I found in the Long Island Sound along with the macro. The sand was from a beach.
This thread is much too violent for me so good luck. *old dude


----------



## Klinemw

I promised myself I was going to stay out of this verbal fist fight. I find it very frustrating to seek help and then have two posters offer different advise and then have one start thumping his chest and calling the other names...my God grow up and relax...Reefing Madness I can see how you got your name. If you think your methods are the ONLY successful way to start a tank you don't have near the experience that you think you do.

For every new person that gets into this hobby, my advise is to listen to every "expert" self proclaimed, or recognized by others, and then weigh those opinions against your own levels of confidence, your situation and resources. Different things work for different people and locations. This can be a very expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to be and still have great success. There are many ways to start a tank. I would argue that if you're planning to keep fish and invertebrates, it's not as hard as many might lead you to believe.

Then when you are no longer the "newbie" and have some experience, please don't recklessly bash other very successful aquarium keepers that use a different method than your own to pursue their enjoyment of this great hobby. Be thankful that the different methods are shared so that you too can have your own stories of success and tales of tribulation.

klinemw


----------



## Reefing Madness

Klinemw said:


> I promised myself I was going to stay out of this verbal fist fight. I find it very frustrating to seek help and then have two posters offer different advise and then have one start thumping his chest and calling the other names...my God grow up and relax...Reefing Madness I can see how you got your name. If you think your methods are the ONLY successful way to start a tank you don't have near the experience that you think you do.
> 
> For every new person that gets into this hobby, my advise is to listen to every "expert" self proclaimed, or recognized by others, and then weigh those opinions against your own levels of confidence, your situation and resources. Different things work for different people and locations. This can be a very expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to be and still have great success. There are many ways to start a tank. I would argue that if you're planning to keep fish and invertebrates, it's not as hard as many might lead you to believe.
> 
> Then when you are no longer the "newbie" and have some experience, please don't recklessly bash other very successful aquarium keepers that use a different method than your own to pursue their enjoyment of this great hobby. Be thankful that the different methods are shared so that you too can have your own stories of success and tales of tribulation.
> 
> klinemw


By all means, set up a 10g tank and partition it off for your macro algae. Let us know how that works for you. Until you've been there and done that, how would you know how to answer? How much room is now left in the tank for its inhabitants? With the live rock and the sand, that's about all your going to get in that tank that is now cut in half. I'm with Paul, I don't use half the crap that was listed, not even close, but Beasl's way to fix everyone's problems is to add algae, it aint gonna cut it. Set it all up, run your tank like that, and let us know how it runs for you. Don't guess, and by all means don't take sides, but know what your getting into, and know what you are talking about........first. Then jump in.


One last question for you Klinemw, I see you have a Sailfin and a Yellow Tang, very nice. May I ask what size tank that is you have them in?


----------



## whitetiger61

Klinemw said:


> I promised myself I was going to stay out of this verbal fist fight. I find it very frustrating to seek help and then have two posters offer different advise and then have one start thumping his chest and calling the other names...my God grow up and relax...Reefing Madness I can see how you got your name. If you think your methods are the ONLY successful way to start a tank you don't have near the experience that you think you do.
> 
> For every new person that gets into this hobby, my advise is to listen to every "expert" self proclaimed, or recognized by others, and then weigh those opinions against your own levels of confidence, your situation and resources. Different things work for different people and locations. This can be a very expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to be and still have great success. There are many ways to start a tank. I would argue that if you're planning to keep fish and invertebrates, it's not as hard as many might lead you to believe.
> 
> Then when you are no longer the "newbie" and have some experience, please don't recklessly bash other very successful aquarium keepers that use a different method than your own to pursue their enjoyment of this great hobby. Be thankful that the different methods are shared so that you too can have your own stories of success and tales of tribulation.
> 
> klinemw


Ive read this entire thread..Sorry but Reefing Madness is correct here..I have been in saltwater a long time..if i have a problem(rare, but it does happen) i go to him..this hobby has to many varibles to take anything for granted.culurpra will go asexual in a heart beat and once it does good luck getting it out. sure you dont need a skimmer or all the fancy bells and whistles, but the main thing a experieced hobbiest thats giving advise should do is tell the person what he should do and have to have a sucessful tank,, and Reefing Madness has done just that..+1 on the playsand..it has glass in it, and silicates do not use

Rick


----------

