# Can anyone help a dad with an unhappy daughter and unhappy tank



## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

We have had a bad start to our aquarium adventures so I'm shouting out for a bit of advice. As a brief history we got a fish tank, let it settle, checked the water and all was well. Got two gold fish but one died very soon after (i think it was a baddun from the shop as they soon replaced it) Water was still fine at this point and both fish happy. Did a water change, all still good. On second water change (btw water changes were done weekly) the tanks Nitrate/Nitrite levels shot up. So much so that one fish committed harry carry by leaping out of the tank to his doom behind the drawers the tank sits on. The remaining fish began to get fin rot and fungus (cotton wool type) and even though we tried very closely timed water changes (daily) the fish unfortunately died and the tank continued to have a high level of nitrates/nitrites (not sure of the difference) 

My daughter has been feeding her fish with care, making sure not to over feed and that within the space of 5 mins there was no food left. Unfortunately though it was too little too late. On the day before the fish died I did try to introduce a nitrate reducing liquid into the tank but the bottle stated that this would take effect over the course of a week and unfortunately the fish didnt last that long.

So in summation here are a few things on my mind:

1.)Does the tank need to be cleaned and started a fresh?
2.)What could have caused the levels of Nitrate/Nitrite to stay so high even when we had been doing 20% water changes on a 24ltre tank
3.)Can you have two fish in a 24litre tank?
4.)Can I add both Nitrate/nitrite reduce into a tank aswell as finrot/fungal aid?

and finally

5.)Is there anything more or less that I could have done?

Thanks for taking the time to read such a long post but I would love to get the tank and my daughters feelings back on a high again.

regards

Sam


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Well, I have a few things
1. Although goldfish seem to be a good fish to start with, I don't recommend them. They are very dirty fish that create unfathomable amounts of waste. Due to this they require very large tanks for their size.
2. Did you properly cycle the tank? A proper cycle can take as much as 6 weeks to complete to grow the bacterial that break down the harmful chemicals. If you look around on this forum you can find it posted as a sticky.
3. The chemicals designed to remove or neutralize the ammonia/nitrites very seldom if ever works. Your best chance lies with a well cycled tank and and good PWC's.
4. I don't know where you get your fish at buy try to avoid places like petco or petsmart because the fish come from low breeding quility and even lower methods of care. Although it can be a bit more expensive I recommend finding a 'mom and pop' fish shop. They usually are the best route for quality fish.

That is about all I have right now but believe me, you are not the first this has happened to. nor will you be the last. But the good news is when you see it again you will be prepared.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Your 24 litre tank is really tiny. A goldfish (no shop will tell you this) should have a baseline minimum of 100 heavily filtered litres per fish - more, ideally. Goldfish get the expendable fish role because they breed so easily so they remain cheap. If you keep them properly, they live longer than dogs, and become very large. 
So you started out with bad info, and were doomed to fail by it. The moment you put two goldfish in a 24 litre, it was a matter of time.
I wouldn't clean the tank. I would do a water change, wait a week, and add a small fish - guppy or platy sized. Feed sparingly, change water, and add another in 3 weeks. A tank that size will unfortunately only be good for 3 fish or so, but it should be stocked over 4-6 weeks to allow the bacterial cycle to kick in. 
The nitrate reduce is probably a waste of money, and the high levels come from the inefficient waste systems of goldfish - they digest poorly and poop like cows. In a small tank, there was nowhere for it to go.
Some will tell you to buy a test kit - I'll be a heretic and say buy a test kit if you like recording chemistry. Otherwise, go slow and steady, add fish at 2 week intervals and do weekly 25% water changes.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks to both CrazyMFFM and navigator black for responding so quickly. I did cycle the tank (as far as I was aware) but it may not have been for long enough. The box said 3 days so I left it a week before introducing fish. In hindsight maybe the fact that one fish died quickly and left only one fish still in the tank, this may have held back the impending nitrate/nitrite onslaught and given me a false sense of stability in the tank. If any of that makes sense.... I think, from reading your posts (and please correct me if I'm wrong) from here I should do another partial water change (20%), make sure waste products are removed and leave for a week before adding any fish, and when doing so add the fish in one month time spans. I was only going to have a maximum of two goldfish in there anyway but have geared my daughter up for the possibility of it only housing one. Is this right?

Just had another thought, presumably the tank will now naturally break down the nitrates and during the week it should be at acceptable levels again. Obviously I will test before adding fish but if this doesnt go down, could there be an issue with the small filter system that came with the tank?

Once again thanks for all and any help given....


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

It seems that if you didn't add ammonia when you got the tank and were cycling they cycle started when you added the goldfish. Also, 3 days is no where near long enough for a cycle to really start much less complete. And if you are dead set on goldfish I would recommend a filter that will process 4-5 times that tanks capacity to keep up with the goldfish.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Sorry, can I ask what you mean by adding ammonia. When we set the tank up I used a dechlorinating agent (if thats how its spelt), left it for a week (during which time it went very cloudy then cleared up again) and then began to introduce fish. Does this mean i missed a fundamental part of the setup?


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## LaurenK (Mar 18, 2012)

sedwardson said:


> Sorry, can I ask what you mean by adding ammonia. When we set the tank up I used a dechlorinating agent (if thats how its spelt), left it for a week (during which time it went very cloudy then cleared up again) and then began to introduce fish. Does this mean i missed a fundamental part of the setup?


When you do a fishless cycle, you have to add ammonia to your tank so the good bacteria needed to break down the waste from the fish can start growing and changing it into nitrite. I'd suggest researching the Nitrogen Cycle for tanks. It will explain how the cycle works to get ammonia and nitrite out of your tank through nitrates which are then removed through water changes. Ammonia and Nitrite are very toxic to fish and can kill them so you always want the levels of both at zero. Like mentioned before three days was not long enough. On average, it can take 4-6 weeks to cycle a tank. I would not put Goldfish in your tank. You could do like suggested above...3 guppies or a beta. Once, you see your tanks levels for ammonia and nitrite go back down to zero you can add fish. I'd add one fish every two weeks to be safe, if you can wait longer than two weeks that is even better. I'm sorry to hear that you're having difficulty with your tank. It happens to all of us. I think your daughter will enjoy the guppies or betta better than the goldfish because they're more colorful.  In the long run, cycling your tank before adding fish will save you money and frustration.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

What you did was condition the water, that is very different from cycling. Not cycling a tank means certain death for any fish you add until it does cycle. Read this link for complete info.

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

AARRGGHH I dont believe it. It would seem, in which case, that the instructions on the back of the tank weren't particularly concise then. :-( Thanks for all the help and advice, its really useful and is now beginning to build the path of what to do from here and how. So my plan from here is...

1.)partial water change (20%)
2.)keep the filter running and put a small pinch of fish flakes in
3.)leave for a couple of days
4.)test water for levels of ammonia
5.)if there is no ammonia then add a tiny amount more of fish flakes, leave for a couple of days then test water for levels of ammonia
6.)if the ammonia starts to build then test for Nitrite and if ammonia starts to drop add a flake or two to help.
7.)Do this daily for about 2 - 3 weeks and when the nitrite level starts to drop off, test for nitrates. 
8.)Once the Nitrate levels kick in then its time to change water (20%) and, if ive got my head round this properly, this is the point at which I could add one fish. Possibly increased by one in 3 - 4 weeks time.

If anyone could confirm that this is a good or bad plan I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks again for all the advice...

One last thing. can anyone recommend a good testing kit?


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

Another way to speed up the process is if you go to your LFS you can usually get them to give you some substrate and some filter media from their tanks. This will already be loaded with beneficial bacteria and will help significantly.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks CrazyMFFM. So this is a reasonable plan then?


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

it sounds like you are on the right track, just remember if you add too many fish to quickly you will throw the tank off again


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## LaurenK (Mar 18, 2012)

Crazy...does the fish food adding really work? I've heard that doing it this way can cause a huge pH increase after the tank cycles. Whats your opinion on that? I don't completely understand why the pH would spike if the cycle is done this way but just something that was mentioned to me when I had thought about cycling my tanks this way.

And sounds like you're on the right track sedwardson.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up Lauren, and Crazy, I also would be very interested in your opinion of the fish food process cycle.


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

I prefer to add a bit of pure ammonia over the fish food method. It seems to be a bit quicker and more definate.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

several things. 

1. I would go with ammonia over flakes. It will go faster and you can get enough benificial bacteria in the tank to stock it fairly well. 

2. People who use the flake technique frequently report mold and/or planaria. ew. 

3. No one mentioned it but plant that tank, it's another way to add filtration, it looks nice, and is good for the fish

4. No more goldies. They get waaay too big to live any kind of quality life in that size tank.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks Summer, so Betta's would, in your opinion, be a better fish? (please pardon the pun) and it sounds like the pure ammonia route is more successfully used.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Bettas could be a good option, if more than one of course you'll need to stick with all females. I wouldnt put more than 2 in there. Or one male and maybe a mystery snail with him. If you plant it it helps the tank not look so empty. I fully understand the frustration of a small tank with few fish and kids wanting to add more. Plants can help curb that, and add a lot of other benifits!


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## Crazy (Mar 1, 2012)

if you want to got to a bigger tank without going broke you can look on craigslist, a ton of good deals to be had there.


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## sedwardson (Mar 21, 2012)

Thank you soooo much to everyone....Tonight is the start of a very steep learning curve and a fishless cycle


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I had a neighbour who taught me a lot about gardens, and who worked a lot on her plants. She decided to get a fishtank for the winter months, and immediately jammed it full of fish and killed everything with 'new tank syndrome'. Then she called me to help.

It amazed me how a person so patient as a gardener could be so impatient as an aquarist - what she had done was like sticking cut flowers in the ground and expecting them to bloom all summer long. Don't get me wrong, I would do that in my garden if I could get away with it! We all want results, and the short process of getting them in a tank can feel long. 

But when I thought about after she was on the path you are on now is that it's not that steep a curve. It's all a matter of seeing the need for patience, and following that slow curve. The cycle will start and work through, the plants will root and take, the fish will be added and the next thing you know, you have something of great beauty and interest going on. 

I have never bothered with a fishless cycle, or with adding ammonia. I'll take a slightly slower cycle by using fish for my ammonia, and building up slowly. It's hard to explain to kids why you have a lovely, empty tank that you dribble stinky chemicals into - I'd add a Betta splendens (kids love them), and then look to a couple of small, peaceful fish to keep the tank looking active afterwards. As long as you move slowly, it can work. You can use the waiting time to read up on aquariums with one of the many general fishkeeping books - a little grounding in the basics makes it all seem easier. The internet is great for specific, narrow questions, but for a broader, starting point understanding, you can't beat libraries or bookstores (yet).


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

I agree with Navigator, I never really did a fishless cycle either, its ecspecialy hard with impatient kids like others have said, use a betta and keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite as long as you keep them under control your fish will be fine.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The good thing here if you decide to do a fishless cycle, you already have a headstart as the cycle has already travelled a certain amount. 

I hate it that the term "cycle" and cycling a tank, is confused with letting a tank run for a few days and the nitrogen cycle. There have been new aquarists that have come on here and have let their tanks run for 3wks and think that the cycle has taken place when it really didn't start until an ammonia source was first introduced into the tank. Not to mention that those of us with experience mention it as such to say, did you cycle the tank? It is the poorest question to ask.

My opinion would be to get a fresh start with at least an 80L tank. They don't take up much space and aren't terribly heavy or cost prohibitive. You will have a much easier go of it, be able to add more fish, and keep your Daughter happier in the process. Just a suggestion. General advice when starting out is go as big as you have space and money for. The smaller the tank, the more diffculty to keep.


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## thenightgoddess (May 3, 2012)

Im thinking part of the reason it spiked is because the tank is no where near the size it should be for even one goldfish. We tell people at my work one goldfish needs a 20 gallon tank and for every goldfish you add you need 10 gallons more. Your tank is about 6 and a half gallons. I would get a heater for it and you could put 3 danios in it, or three neon tetras in it, or 3-4 guppies in it, or 2 mollies or platys.


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