# 2 more deaths this morning



## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

I changed the water 2 days ago after the last death. Today 2 more died. I examined them and they looked totally normal, except dead :/ yesterday I did notice them "resting" a bit one on a leaf and another in the sword grass, but when I approached the tank they greeted me like the others.
Levels
Ph 6.6
Ammon. .25 (probably from the deaths)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
I use API water conditioner every water change, bottle is 2 months old.

I am truely at a loss. I'm even considering emptying the tank and cleaning out the rocks. I honestly don't know why they are dying. Give me some advice, how do I fix this? Should I get meds and treat the tank for a little of everything? Antibiotics? parasites?

The remaining fish...29gallon, 4 balloon mollies, 1 black mollie, 6 guppies, 2 pepper cory's and 1 pearl gourami and a snail.

If they had damage I would think that the gourami woulda done it, but no damage. I started with about 2 dozen fish all together.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

With a pH that low and some ammonia I suspect co2 problems.

If it is not a live plants aquarium add lotsa anacharis.

whether or not it is planted try cutting back on feeding.

my .02


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

I have 2small anubus plants 1amazon swords, 3 mini swords and lots of wisteria (the stuff is like weeds)

How do I make the ph higher? I don't want to use ph up because that's just a bandaid and doesn't fix the issue.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A ph of 6.6 is perfectly fine as long as the fish were acclimated. You can add crushed coral to bump up a little if you like. It is the only method I'd use since things like baking soda have to be re-added every time you do a water change.

And you don't have a CO2 problem. A low ph does not mean there is a high CO2 concentrate in your tank....if that was true your plants would eat it up pretty fast - especially those plants. It can mean something similar, but not always the case.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

Well if it's not the water it's disease or parasites or attack. Nothing visable so I'm ruling out attack. 
Lol I thought since I have been doing this for over a year now, I would know a bit more. 

Their poo looks normal (not clear or stringy or even bubbles) gills look fine, scales and body look fine. What do I do?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

danilykins said:


> I have 2small anubus plants 1amazon swords, 3 mini swords and lots of wisteria (the stuff is like weeds)
> 
> How do I make the ph higher? I don't want to use ph up because that's just a bandaid and doesn't fix the issue.


agree with ph up.

My concern is especially with all those plants and growing like weeds the pH should be much higher. Which indicates to me that the lack of co2 plus whatever is being added to the tank is creating problems.

My planted tanks even with a very heavy bioload, no water changes, peat moss in the substrate all have a pH that is 8.4-8.8 with the api high range test kit.

So I would look at your maintenance with an eye on what is forcing the pH down. Over feeding, chemical additions, quality of replacement water, frequency or water changes and so on.

Finally the fish resting on the plants was typical of what I used to see on my first fish after a few days. Then just like clockwork the fish died on the 5th day. When I did not add food for a week for that first fish then he lived.

I also noticed (when I finally measured things once or twice) that nitrItes did jump up (1.ppm or so) after adding the fish. But with no food additions and with the plants they jumped down to 0 the next day.

And I have also noticed that I get an initial nitrate spike that drops down in about three weeks.

So possibly if you basically "back off" mainly with feeding perhaps the pH will rise and the fish be happier.

my .02


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

Alright how often should I feed? Now it's daily, a pinch. Once a week? What kind of food. I use tetramin tropical flakes and algae wafers about once a week. So should I add more plants or leave it as is?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

danilykins said:


> Alright how often should I feed? Now it's daily, a pinch. Once a week? What kind of food. I use tetramin tropical flakes and algae wafers about once a week. So should I add more plants or leave it as is?


I would add more plants and stop feeding for a few days. Fast groing plants like wistera or anacharis are a good choice.

then monitor pH and ammonia along with nitrites. See if pH rises and ammonia drops to 0.

Are you using any water conditioners?

my .02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Just because you think adding plants will raise the ph, because you say it does in your tank doesn't mean it is that way in all tanks, My heavily planted tanks never has ph increase even walstead tank. 

If she has a low kh and gh that could cause the ph to drop like that and I would suggest adding some crushed coral either to the substrate or in the filter. The ph is actually to low for mollies and guppies, swords, They are a hard water species and the ph should be at least 7. 

Also water conditioners won't cause this effect either.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The 6.6 doesn't mean squat until you know what it is out of your tap. A lower ph *DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR WATER*. Ph products do nothing but cause a yo-yo effect in the water that will stress your fish and eventually kill them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 6.6ph. This is where it could mean something is wrong.....you test your tap after the water has sat for 24hrs and it's 7.5 (fictional value), indicating that something in the tank is causing an abnormal drop. If it would have dropped a near full point, then maybe look at what is going on in the tank. Bob failed to give you the FULL reason why it would be important or a concern, but that is his way to garner attention to his methods....which he is already preaching to you. 

*DONT LISTEN TO HIM!*

But, I would like to ask you when you are testing your ph? Beginning of light cycle, during, just before the light cycle, etc.. The value can be slightly different for each one of those points.

Plants do not cause a high ph.....they do however in *BEASLBOB'S MAKE BELIEVE WORLD* and his non-cared for tanks. Refer to his gallery as a ref.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

Wow... Ok.. When I tested it was this afternoon when the light had Ben on about 4 hours, so mid light cycle I guess.

My tank is filled with plants, so I honestly think I have enough plants. I have so much I can't see the back of the tank. I will do a "baseline reading" for tap water tomorrow (I'll set it out tonight). Could the ph problems really be a reason for my losses? After a year?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Personally, I think it's doubtful but it could contribute if it is stressing the fish.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

*sigh* maybe when they had the camallanus it damaged something internally or hell I don't know it's a mystery. I'll cut back on feedings and clean the gravel really well and hope for the best :/ all the colorful guppies are gone now I just have some yellow colored ones and one half orange and black. If these all end up dying, I'll break the tank down, clean it real well, change out the substrate and start over with something else.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Do you have hard or soft water? I'm wondering if the acidity is due to a lack of mineral in the water to push the water alkaline. Definitely do a 24 hour tap test, letting your tap water sit for a day and testing it then.

I'm also concerned with the ammonia reading that something might have happened to kill your cycle. You're not getting any nitrates? I'd be suspicious of ammonia so long as it was in the tank.

Also if you have rocks for a substrate, they might be trapping junk especially in a planted tank. I switched to a mix of planted tank mineral substrate, and sand to keep junk on the top of the substrate so I could clean it better and the filter works better as well.

And if all else fails, have you done a filter check? Is the water spilling over the overflow? Sometimes that also causes problems in my tank.

Good luck!


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

This may be a LONG stretch but maybe contact your local water company and see if they have switched any of there chemicals or did something to the water supply lately that may have changed your water. Shot in the dark but at this point you've got a mystery on your hands., Sorry to hear about your loses.


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## corrinla (Mar 16, 2012)

It is the only method I'd use since things like baking soda have to be re-added every time you do a water change.


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## Betty (Mar 16, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear that.
Even though I have not given any professional advice.
They are so treasure for you like friends.
*c/p*



danilykins said:


> I changed the water 2 days ago after the last death. Today 2 more died. I examined them and they looked totally normal, except dead :/ yesterday I did notice them "resting" a bit one on a leaf and another in the sword grass, but when I approached the tank they greeted me like the others.
> Levels
> Ph 6.6
> Ammon. .25 (probably from the deaths)
> ...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

What did you use for the camallanus?
I will bet they still have it. The pattern of deaths is perfectly within the parasite's profile. So what did you use, and how did you use it? How many doses over what period of time?

As for the CO2 and pH tangent - it is meaningless. pH 6.6 is an excellent reading if your fish are chosen for it. And it probably comes from your tapwater. Always bear in mind that while beaslbob doesn't always make it clear, he does not believe in changing water or using filtration or currents, and keeps very few fish. His tanks 'work' in ways no one else's do, and his advice is often counterproductive unless you buy into the old methods he sells. 
Mollies are a bad choice as a low pH usually reflects mineral poor water, and mollies usually struggle in soft water. But they won't struggle in the ways you've described.

I suspect an internal parasite - probably camallanus sp.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

I treated the camallanus with levimosole hcl (?). I treated it once waited 48hrs then treated again. Then repeated the process 3 weeks later. I don't see any worms hanging out the anus like I did before. I mean it is possible that they still have it but without seeing "proof" there is no sure fire way of knowing. I have also treated the tank with general cure, per directed on the package.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Well, you did the right thing, exactly. You SHOULD have no camallanus.

I don't know if this anecdote will help, but I had two tanks behaving just like yours - a couple of fish every few days - no symptoms, seemingly healthy, normal waste - but inexplicable and very frustrating die offs, until I had lost both species. It started in a third tank, and I was at my wits' end when a red worm popped out for a split second one day. I saw no pattern of hanging worms as symptoms, but when I treated for camallanus, there were tons of them. The tank is now completely healthy and the fish are breeding. I have multiple tanks, so I treated everything. The fish look great now.
I traced it back to some Limia I bought months before that died soon after, in quarantine but probably after I'd carried the parasite on a net.
It seems so similar to what you are describing, and I would expect there are many species of Camallanus. If you have one adapted to the species you keep, it wouldn't have to be a plague-like killer. It would make more sense for it to kill slowly, as you're seeing.
Levamisole is expensive, and you don't want to be throwing it around, but do you think that somehow, the parasite might have survived the treatment?


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

Anything is possible. I have been watching closely every day and have seen anything. I did notice a little bit of clear poo, almost like air bubbles.


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## danilykins (Dec 22, 2010)

I think all the fish that were affected by the camallanus have died. I think the others will be fine. I'm down to 4 adult guppies and about 3 babies, along with 4 balloon mollies, a creamcicle Molly, and a black Molly, along with the pearl gourami and 2 corys.
Everyone seems happy and not lathargic at all, no resting on the bottom or on the leaves. I'm really hoping its over with.
Thank you everyone for all the advice given.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

I hope it stabilizes! Good luck.


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