# New setup mistake.... Can I save my fish?



## breakfastatme

I purchased a 10 gallon set up on 12/29/10 and I added water and Nutrafin Aqua Plus and I also started the cycle process by adding Cycle as directed and each day since 12/29. I had my water tested and the ammonia level was "good" So I purchased 2 guppies, a male and a gravid female (plus a 3/4 inch fry). I was kind of familiar with the cycle that the tank needs to go through but I thought a week using cycle would be ok to add fish. As of today the 2.5 (lol) fish are doing well. My temp is at 75. Their tank is on my desk so I am constantly watching them. (can I stress them out by sitting at my computer and starting at them all day?) Because I did not wait the 4-6 weeks for my tank to cycle are my new fish going to die. I am going to pick up a water testing kit and a breeder box tomorrow. Is there anything else I can get or I should do to make sure they don't die because the tank was not cycled for 4-6 weeks? Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

Thank you
Tiffany

*c/p*:dont_tap_the_glass:


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## jrman83

Nope, not really. Get the test kit and test daily for ammonia and nitrites. I would think you are seeing both by now. Do water changes in the 35-50% range when either of those two get above 1, and daily until it gets below if need be. You'll know you are done when your ammonia and nitrite are 0 and you have some value of nitrates.


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## Santaaa

breakfastatme said:


> I purchased a 10 gallon set up on 12/29/10 and I added water and Nutrafin Aqua Plus and I also started the cycle process by adding Cycle as directed and each day since 12/29. I had my water tested and the ammonia level was "good" So I purchased 2 guppies, a male and a gravid female (plus a 3/4 inch fry). I was kind of familiar with the cycle that the tank needs to go through but I thought a week using cycle would be ok to add fish. As of today the 2.5 (lol) fish are doing well. My temp is at 75. Their tank is on my desk so I am constantly watching them. (can I stress them out by sitting at my computer and starting at them all day?) Because I did not wait the 4-6 weeks for my tank to cycle are my new fish going to die. I am going to pick up a water testing kit and a breeder box tomorrow. Is there anything else I can get or I should do to make sure they don't die because the tank was not cycled for 4-6 weeks? Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
> 
> Thank you
> Tiffany
> 
> *c/p*:dont_tap_the_glass:


I can make a suggestion that will help today. First off pitch the bottle of Cycle that stuff is old hat. I tried that junk once and it doesn't work. Although it is only supposed to shorten the cycle not eliminate it. Go to your local Petsmart and pick up a product called Safestart by Tetra. Take that home and pour it into your tank and it will be cycled within a day at the very most. Many people will disagree with me that this can be done but I have used it personally and it works. Most bacterial additives that are meant to cycle your tank are junk and should be avoided but I will say I swear by Safestart. Since you have fish this is the way I would go otherwise a fishless cycle is cheaper but you don't have that option. Tell you the truth fishless cycling is a bit of a pain. It will work but takes awhile and you have to slowly stock the tank when it is completed. If I was setting up a new tank and I did not have another tank to seed it from then I would still go with Safestart. If you don't have a Petsmart near you check online to buy Tetra's Safestart.


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## PolymerTim

Santaaa said:


> I can make a suggestion that will help today. First off pitch the bottle of Cycle that stuff is old hat. I tried that junk once and it doesn't work. Although it is only supposed to shorten the cycle not eliminate it. Go to your local Petsmart and pick up a product called Safestart by Tetra. Take that home and pour it into your tank and it will be cycled within a day at the very most. Many people will disagree with me that this can be done but I have used it personally and it works. Most bacterial additives that are meant to cycle your tank are junk and should be avoided but I will say I swear by Safestart. Since you have fish this is the way I would go otherwise a fishless cycle is cheaper but you don't have that option. Tell you the truth fishless cycling is a bit of a pain. It will work but takes awhile and you have to slowly stock the tank when it is completed. If I was setting up a new tank and I did not have another tank to seed it from then I would still go with Safestart. If you don't have a Petsmart near you check online to buy Tetra's Safestart.


Just out of curiosity, how many times have you tried Safestart? One of the biggest complaints I've heard about these products is inconsistent results. Many of them will work occasionally, but most don't work reliably. If you've actually gotten it to work fairly often, I would love to know as it seems to be the exception.

As for the fishless cycle, I have to disagree about its complexity. It is actually much simpler than a cycle with fish since you don't have to do frequent water changes to keep the chemistry safe for your fish. Once the cycle is done, you can easily build up your bacterial colony to whatever size you need and then introduce all your fish at once if you like. When I started my tank, I had the bacteria processing 4 ppm ammonia into nitrates in about 10-12 hours.

But the OP already has fish so the best thing is, as jrman suggests, get the test kit, measure daily, and perform water changes often enough to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down. Essentially, you will be doing the work of the bacteria until the colonies grow large enough to do it for you. Then you will only need less frequent water changes to control nitrates.

Best of luck to you. Keep us posted.


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## Santaaa

PolymerTim said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many times have you tried Safestart? One of the biggest complaints I've heard about these products is inconsistent results. Many of them will work occasionally, but most don't work reliably. If you've actually gotten it to work fairly often, I would love to know as it seems to be the exception.
> 
> As for the fishless cycle, I have to disagree about its complexity. It is actually much simpler than a cycle with fish since you don't have to do frequent water changes to keep the chemistry safe for your fish. Once the cycle is done, you can easily build up your bacterial colony to whatever size you need and then introduce all your fish at once if you like. When I started my tank, I had the bacteria processing 4 ppm ammonia into nitrates in about 10-12 hours.
> 
> But the OP already has fish so the best thing is, as jrman suggests, get the test kit, measure daily, and perform water changes often enough to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down. Essentially, you will be doing the work of the bacteria until the colonies grow large enough to do it for you. Then you will only need less frequent water changes to control nitrates.
> 
> Best of luck to you. Keep us posted.


I have used Safestart a few times to set up tanks and a few more when I have had power outages for extended periods of time. My main tanks were set up with Safestart and my breeding tanks have always been seeded from those main tanks. It really is the exception. Safestart is not cheap but it is worth it 100%. Probably the inconsistent results are due to the shelf life. Most bacterial additives don't have good shelf life. Safestart is supposed to have a shelf life of one year without refrigeration. 10-12 hours fishless cycling that is honestly the fastest I have ever heard of it working. Most people I have read about doing that say it takes almost a month. How are you setting it up because I am really curious because maybe you found a faster way. I love to mess with new ways of doing things and have some extra tanks laying around how do you set it up? 
Anyways Safestart consistently works for me when I have used it. That is what I plan to use to set up my tanks again after college so I don't have to move my tanks with large amounts of water in them. I think the biggest thing is making sure that you get a fresh bottle. If it is dusty and looks old just don't buy it. Try to get it somewhere that gets shipments in frequently and maybe ask a clerk how long ago they got their stock of Safestart. The stuff does go bad but as far as I know Safestart will last the longest. About fishless cycling being a pain I had tried it just to experiment with it and it stalled out on me and would not make nitrates. Got stuck on Nitrites but no nitrate. I am sure it works but I had trouble with it. 

Another thing for breakfastatme did you have an ammonia source when you set it up? Sounds like you set it up with water and just dumped the stuff in? Correct me if I am wrong. Without an ammonia source no bacterial additive will work. A test on an ammonia kit is not "good" the number of ppm (particles per million) is what you need to know not good. Plus you need the ppm reading for nitrite and nitrate. The reason your fish seem good is because they have not produced enough ammonia yet to cause problems. Here is a link that will explain the nitrogen cycle and it also mentions about others having success with Safestart. 
The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle


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## snail

Plants absorb ammonia directly so help prevent ammonia spikes. Does your tank have a light? Java moss is good for almost any tank and fry will use it to hide in. Marimo balls are also easy to keep and good at absorbing nutrients.


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## Santaaa

I second the Marimo Moss ball. They are great plant if you can find a real one. Sometimes petco sells garbage moss balls. If it says it is a Marimo moss ball at Petco it is but not if it says just moss ball. Then it is just moss rolled into a ball.


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## Niki7

Santaaa said:


> About fishless cycling being a pain I had tried it just to experiment with it and it stalled out on me and would not make nitrates. Got stuck on Nitrites but no nitrate. I am sure it works but I had trouble with it.
> 
> Here is a link that will explain the nitrogen cycle and it also mentions about others having success with Safestart.
> The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle


I have good experience with Nite-Out for getting out of the nitrite cycle. Within a day it cleared up after adding it. It is hard to find sometimes. I found it cheapest on eBay.


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## PolymerTim

Santaaa said:


> I have used Safestart a few times to set up tanks and a few more when I have had power outages for extended periods of time. My main tanks were set up with Safestart and my breeding tanks have always been seeded from those main tanks. It really is the exception. Safestart is not cheap but it is worth it 100%. Probably the inconsistent results are due to the shelf life. Most bacterial additives don't have good shelf life. Safestart is supposed to have a shelf life of one year without refrigeration. 10-12 hours fishless cycling that is honestly the fastest I have ever heard of it working. Most people I have read about doing that say it takes almost a month. How are you setting it up because I am really curious because maybe you found a faster way. I love to mess with new ways of doing things and have some extra tanks laying around how do you set it up?
> Anyways Safestart consistently works for me when I have used it. That is what I plan to use to set up my tanks again after college so I don't have to move my tanks with large amounts of water in them. I think the biggest thing is making sure that you get a fresh bottle. If it is dusty and looks old just don't buy it. Try to get it somewhere that gets shipments in frequently and maybe ask a clerk how long ago they got their stock of Safestart. The stuff does go bad but as far as I know Safestart will last the longest. About fishless cycling being a pain I had tried it just to experiment with it and it stalled out on me and would not make nitrates. Got stuck on Nitrites but no nitrate. I am sure it works but I had trouble with it.
> 
> Another thing for breakfastatme did you have an ammonia source when you set it up? Sounds like you set it up with water and just dumped the stuff in? Correct me if I am wrong. Without an ammonia source no bacterial additive will work. A test on an ammonia kit is not "good" the number of ppm (particles per million) is what you need to know not good. Plus you need the ppm reading for nitrite and nitrate. The reason your fish seem good is because they have not produced enough ammonia yet to cause problems. Here is a link that will explain the nitrogen cycle and it also mentions about others having success with Safestart.
> The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle


Thanks for the extra info Santaaa. I have also heard of shelf life being an issue. I tried one of the bacterial starters along with my fishless cycle and it did nothing, but I can't remember which one I tried.

To clarify, the fishless cycle process did not take me 12 hours, it took 2 months (with a couple complications of my own doing). What I meant by the 12 hours was that, at the end of my process and before adding fish, I had built up a large enough colony of bacteria to take my tank from 4 ppm (directly dosed ammonia) to undetectable in the 10-12 hour period. I didn't do the math, but I'm guessing that the colony was big enough to handle any reasonably stocked aquarium right away. Being my first tank, I started with just six gold barbs and checked ammonia, nitrites and nitrates every day for a while without every seeing any detectable ammonia or nitrites.

As for the two months, I also got stuck in the nitrite portion for a while. I believe it was because of impatience, I tried a bottle of bacterial starter with no luck. Then I borrowed a filter sponge from a friend and got such an immediate infestation of snails that I quickly dosed with had a snail. It got rid of the snails, but I'm guessing it also killed off my bacteria as I did a double dose. When the second colony finally did establish itself, it converted off the chart nitrites to off the chart nitrates overnight.

I've got a log of all my chemistry checks that I plan to upload at some point. Thanks for sharing.

P.S. I was just reading on the fishlore forum about SafeStart. It sounds quite promising. I noticed one caveat that may be causing some of the failures when people try this product:
"In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live."
They also mention that high (over 4 ppm) ammonia levels can also kill the bacteria. I could see water conditioner playing a signficant role in the chances of success given this statement from a Tetra representative.

Thanks for sharing Santaaa. This is something I've really been wanting to learn more about.


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## breakfastatme

You guys are great!! Thank you. I have been testing my water daily. Today my Ammonia is at .25ppm and my Nitrite is I think is high at between 1-2ppm. My pH is at 8 and my temp is between 75 and 79 degrees F. I will do a water change if you think it is necessary. I was advised against the water change until my Nitrites started coming down. My Nitrites were at 1 last week and today they are between 1-2, so they went up a little. I do have a a mom-to-be guppy ready to have babies any day in the tank, just an FYI.

Thank you!!!


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## PolymerTim

breakfastatme said:


> You guys are great!! Thank you. I have been testing my water daily. Today my Ammonia is at .25ppm and my Nitrite is I think is high at between 1-2ppm. My pH is at 8 and my temp is between 75 and 79 degrees F. I will do a water change if you think it is necessary. I was advised against the water change until my Nitrites started coming down. My Nitrites were at 1 last week and today they are between 1-2, so they went up a little. I do have a a mom-to-be guppy ready to have babies any day in the tank, just an FYI.
> 
> Thank you!!!


Glad to hear things are coming along. Your ammonia looks pretty good to me for a tank that is still cycling. Eventually it should read zero, but temporarily I think that is OK. The nitrites are getting a bit high. I have no personal experience with this one, but from what I've heard, 1-2 ppm is considered stressful to most fish, but not lethal. Once you start getting over 3 ppm, you are much more likely to have a problem. Of course some fish are more sensitive than others. Maybe someone else can chime in here, but if it were me, I think I would do enough water changes to keep it below 1 ppm if possible.

Have you been testing your nitrates? When these start to rise, you will know you're nearing the end.

Best of luck to you!


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## breakfastatme

I just tested my Nitrates and they are right between 10-20 ppm. Over the last 4 days I have added 1tsp of unadulterated sea salt. I have heard that is helps fish that are stressed or sick to add a bit of salt to the tank.

thank you again!!*pc


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## jrman83

If the nitrites are above 1, I would do a 30-50% water change. Wait a few hours and measure again. If it is still over 1 then do the same thing the next day and so on. I believe you are within a week of completing your cycle.


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## snail

^+1


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## chris oe

I think its funny people instantly go to the "big controversy" instead of focusing on the case in front of them. You have fish, they have the bacteria you need in their guts, and the ammonia you need to get a biofilter started will come from their waste. So "starters" and such are really unnecessary. I would second (or third?) the plants suggestion, but I would go with some cheap, fast growing bunch plants, like anacharis or something - the ones that come in a cut bunch rubberbanded together are the best, 'cause you know they just cut off a hunk and bunch them together and they just grow back. Fast growing plants are just going to grow and grow, and they'll eat up ammonia fast enough to keep your fish out of distress (as well as giving the babies a place to hide from the adults).


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## snail

The problem with fast growing plants is that many don't grow so well under low light conditions and if they start to die off they will add to the ammonia. I mentioned java moss and marimo balls because they are hard to kill in any tank with any light and any substrate and are still good at reducing ammonia spikes. However if the conditions are right I second fast growing plants. Anacharis is perfect for the job.


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## chris oe

Good point - rot is bad, dead leaves and such will contribute to an ammonia situation, lots of light + plants = good water


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## breakfastatme

I did a water change and sucked some of the poo out of the gravel but I am still over 1 on my nitrites. I will do a water change tomorrow and test again.
Thank you all for all of your help!!!


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## snail

It sounds like things are going reasonably well, you must be getting close to the end of the cycle. All the water changes might slow it down a bit but will help keep your fish alive. These days I prefer to do a fishless cycle and leave it a good long time, not just because of the fish but because I get too many gray hairs worrying about my fish and water changes!! Once you have done cycling you'll be able to sit back and enjoy your tank with only regular maintenance to do.*pc :fish5::fish10::animated_fish_swimm 

I still recommend adding an easy plant or two, they help to keep water quality stable in a small tank as well as being nice to look at.


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## breakfastatme

I bought two plants today and an air stone (just cuz I like the bubbles). Two of the guppies play in the bubbles. I have never seen fish play. They swim to the bottom of the tank and swim behind the air stone and then swim into the path of the bubbles and let the bubbles carry them up. I think they are playing. They seem to play in the water fall like water from the filter too.


I purchased 2 plants that had a bulb instead of roots (Anubias Nana) and small Water Wisteria.
Will water change and test in a bit.
Thanks!!
*w3


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## jrman83

Those plants should do well in just about any tank.


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## breakfastatme

Thank you all for your help. My tank is almost to the end of the cycle and my fish are don't great. The mom guppy had her babies and they are just over 1/2" and in the tank with the others. Everyone is eating and growing!! Thank you for all of your help!!
Tiffany:fish10::fish5::fish5::fish10::animated_fish_swimm:fish10::fish5::fish10::fish5::animated_fish_swimm


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## jrman83

Glad to hear it.


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## snail

That's great, now you can really enjoy your fish!!


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## chris oe

Congratulations! You did it-


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