# Is this Ich (Ick)?



## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

YouTube - ‪Ich‬‏
Those shiny spots look more like inside "under the skin". Is this Ich or Ick? What is the right name for it anyway?


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

Sorry, the video wasn't very useful. Here is the close-up. Hopefully good enough to tell *Conf*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

From the lateral line up, I can't tell if there is anything. Everything else looks fine to me. Is the fish rubbing on things?


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Is the fish rubbing on things?


No, he isn't. This is one of the new three Dollars. They are very shy and they are hiding behind the plants all the time. The old two ones are very friendly.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

Doesn't look like Ich. Normally one sees the white spots on the clear fins as well as the body and they don't bunch up, they are scattered.
Ich cysts attack the fish's skin burrow in and then the skin grows over the cyst.

You may have something a lot more harmful than Ich. Are all of the three Dollars showing these white patches?


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

inkmaker said:


> You may have something a lot more harmful than Ich. Are all of the three Dollars showing these white patches?


Yes, they were "on sale" in LFS. Do you think I should isolate them? Do you know what it could be?


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

I wouldn't keep any new fish with the home group without a 3 to 4 week quarantine. Their problem could be a lot of things. Not liking their previous water and not liking your water are 2 of the most obvious things.

They need plant food. They are not the Chiclid types. They need cover and low lights to get started.

I wish you could get better PIX.
Charles H


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## BBradbury (Apr 22, 2011)

Good morning beg...

The scientific name for the disease is "Ichthyophthirius Multifilis". That's why it's probably called "Ich". Also called White Spot Disease. The visible symptoms may help you. Here they are:

Tiny white spots, scattered like tiny salt grains.
Slimy looking skin.
Fish rubs against substrate.
Abnormal swimming.
Breathing difficulties, parasite affects the fish's gills.
Loss of appetite and lethargy.
Fraying fins or cloudy eyes.

B


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

inkmaker said:


> I wouldn't keep any new fish with the home group without a 3 to 4 week quarantine. Their problem could be a lot of things. Not liking their previous water and not liking your water are 2 of the most obvious things.
> 
> They need plant food. They are not the Chiclid types. They need cover and low lights to get started.
> 
> ...


*Iinkmaker*
Thank you. I am waiting to get another filter so I can set the other smaller tank and use as "quarantine".
I don't have any lens with decent close-up capabilities and this extreme crop is the best I can do for now. The spots seem not to be visible from every light angle, so *I hope* it may be just some kind of slight damage of the skin and it reflects light differently. It would be very helpful if anybody here who has a Dollars check if they can see anything like this on their fish.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

BBradbury said:


> Good morning beg...
> 
> The scientific name for the disease is "Ichthyophthirius Multifilis". That's why it's probably called "Ich". Also called White Spot Disease. The visible symptoms may help you. Here they are:
> 
> ...


*BBradbury*
Thank you for the great info. I looked the photos of fish suffering from Ich yesterday and I am 99% sure it isn't the case with my fish. None of the symptoms you mention apply and I really hope that is nothing serious. Hopefully someone here would be able to recognize what is going on.
P.S.
I am still waiting with my filter. My funds unexpectedly ended somewhere else *#3. Everything looks clear and healthy (these spots fish brought from LFS)and I got more plants.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Just some info...you don't isolate fish for ich...as a standard practice. Usual practice is to treat the whole tank. If one fish has it, they've all been exposed and the protozoa are now free floating in the tank and the only way to kill them is to treat all of it.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

_MG_9096 by PhotoJax®, on Flickr

_MG_9083 by PhotoJax®, on Flickr

I finally have better close-ups and I don't like what I see. It doesn't look like Ich on photos I've seen on internet. Or is it in early stage? What should I do?


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

Yea, you are right, it does look like Ich.
Raise the temperature to 82, treat with QuickCure to kill the free swimming stage.
It will make a mess of your lovely tank. Just remember next time to quarantine(3 to 4 weeks) any new fish and really clean new plants. All the fish in the tank are probably infested by now.
One can use a UV-Sterlizer to do the job also but it has to be a good one and move lots of water.

Charles H


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

Lesson learned. I am not going to get another fish or plant before I get the second tank for quarantine. I am also going to look more carefully at fish and plants "on sale".


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I'd say yeah it's Ick, especially since it's on the fins as well. 

Raised temp' and some aquarium salt should take care of it. If not, then try an Ick med.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank you holly12,
I was just reading that Dollars are sensitive to salt. Quick Cure worked great for many people. I hope that Silver Dollars are not sensitive to that too. Maybe I should isolate them to the other tank and treat with medicine and the original tank cure with higher temps and salt. If the UV sterilizer is the best solution, I would consider buying one. Any more opinions on that?


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Not sure about the UV sterilizer as I've never had one. I've heard from people who have them that they like them.

You could quarantine the 2 fish, but the main tank will need the high temps' and salt at the very least. (Usually treat the healthy looking fish as contaminated if they were in with the sick ones.) So, it's your choice. You can isolate and medicate the 2, while salting the tank, or you can just medicate the whole tank. (You'd have to do water changes to get the salt out of the tank before putting the Dollars back in.)

If you do medicate, make sure you take the carbon out of the filter because it takes medication out of water. When you're done medicating, you can put a new one back in. (Or, if it was a brand new carbon media, you can put it in a container in the fridge to keep it fresh.)


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Medicate the whole tank...don't isolate fish for ich treatments. Great pics. I don't know that I've ever seen things like that, that close. And based on that, it really doesn't look like ich to me or more correctly nothing like I've seen. Could be. Quick cure will probably fix it either way.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

After Googling "ich treatment" I found few things I want to check with you guys before I do anything. UV sterilizer (if properly sized) would kill algae, parasites and other microorganisms that are floating. Parasites in gravel wouldn't move and they would eventually activate later and attack just when we think we cured the tank. UV sterilizer makes sense as preventive in healthy tanks and as help for ich removal treatment. It's very efficient device for algae and other microorganisms removal making water squeaky clean.
Some people quarantine fish and treat original tanks with salt, high temperatures, medications and UV sterilizers, That way they can apply maximum dose of everything and not stress the fish. At the same time they treat "hospital" tank with fish using "gentler" doses of medicine. 
However, most common way is treatment of the complete original tank with fish using medicine. There are two popular meds Rid Ich and Quick Cure and they seem to be both very effective. I am trying to find out which one is better to use with Silver Dollars because apparently they are sensitive fish and these medications are based on different chemicals.
I found this info reading responses in many fish-keeper forums, so it may not be 100% accurate, but I tried to isolate stuff that made sense to me. 
I only know for sure I am going to get the other tank for all new fish and plants. It will be used to any kind of isolation, quarantine, protection, etc... One tank is just not enough.
*jrman83* I used extension rings and of course manual focus to get these photos. It was hard with low light and fish moving, but from 20-30 exposures I got 2-3 sharp enough images. I don't think that it looks like ich I've seen on online photos either and I hope that Quick Cure will get rid of it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If they are sensitive fish, treat them like a scaless fish (are they?) and half-dose the tank, but treat for twice as long as prescribed. Quick-cure will mention this method in the directions. If it is ich and you plan to treat, I wouldn't wait too much longer. An ich cycle is about 4 days. The longer you wait the more chance of spreading to everything.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> If they are sensitive fish, treat them like a scaless fish (are they?) and half-dose the tank, but treat for twice as long as prescribed. Quick-cure will mention this method in the directions. If it is ich and you plan to treat, I wouldn't wait too much longer. An ich cycle is about 4 days. The longer you wait the more chance of spreading to everything.


The Ich cycle can be 4 weeks+ if the temperature isn't above 80F. That is an important part of the management of this parasite. If the cycle is extended, the cysts on the fish can grow to 3 to 5 mm and really do some damage to the skin of the fish. Secondary infection fungus and/or bacteria can kill the fish as well. Don't wait. Get after the entire tank.

Charles H


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks *inkmaker*
I just did it. I turned up my heater and air pump, removed carbon cartridges and applied the medicine. I am going to do it 3 more times every 48 hours from now. What should I do with the cartridges? They are not dirty.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The temp has to be in the 50s to last that long. If the temp is kept above 75 the cycle is 3-4 days. 86-89, depending on what source you read, will kill it. High temp is not recommended when using meds. Meds deplete oxygen levels, as does water that is higher in temp. Your fish can die from oxygen starvation. Use of a powerhead or some other type of air system is recommended during treatment.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

Temperature is round 80 now. Manufacturer (API) recommends 82, so that shouldn't be too warm Like i said, I removed carbon filter before I applied the medicine. Air pump is set to maximum output. Interesting is that water is just slightly bluish now. It was pretty blue in the beginning.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

I inspected all fish and there is no single cyst or any kind of spot on any of them. I followed the instructions and tomorrow I should change 30% water and add carbon filter back. However I lost two Neons and one Dollar. Molly Babies survived and they look good. Other fish is just a little slower than usual, but I believe they will be fine. In the meantime I bought another 29 gallon tank for quarantine and other uses for the future. What would you guys suggest to do with the cured tank. Now I can evacuate fish to other tank and eventually do whatever I need to do with it. I would like to clean bluish accessories and any residues that are eventually built during the cure. Would it for example be ok to evacuate fish to other tank, do some vacuuming, use sea salt and change 30% water every day for a two-three days? If I evacuate fish to the other tank, how should I set it up? Old (used) filter? Any plants? Original water from display tank?
I know, there are a lot of questions, but I really want to fix this the best way possible. Thank you all for the help with this mess.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I was told that if the filter media isn't old then it could be put in the fridge in a container to be kept fresh. I did this once with carbon. (But now that I think about it, wouldn't that put the disease back in the tank?)


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

I am not sure if the parasite can survive on old filter, but just to make sure I would rather put new cartridges. Would 2 Bio-Wheels (on Penguin 350) keep enough BB?


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

holly12 said:


> I was told that if the filter media isn't old then it could be put in the fridge in a container to be kept fresh. I did this once with carbon. (But now that I think about it, wouldn't that put the disease back in the tank?)


The vast majority of the "Good Bacteria" is resident on the walls, tank gravel, plants and all the other stuff in the tank. The simple over the side filters and sponge filters do little more than circulate the tank water surface. Replace the filter media! Scrub the filter in soapy water and clean it well. Taking a "little risk" isn't worth it. Being sure is simple. Going back to reuse something questionable and losing fish isn't worth the little saving of a little money. 

Charles H


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You really should treat 3-4 days beyond the last visible sign. The is basically based off the lifecyle of ich. If the instructions say to do the water change, then do it and treat again. IMO, one treatment cycle is not enough, especially since with Quick Cure it is a pretty short cycle to begin with. If you don't follow this procedure you risk it coming back and this time it will be resistant to the meds and you may have difficulty getting rid of it. On losing the Neons, did you dose half a dose per time? Instructions say to apply only a half-dose for tetras.


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## begovics (Jun 19, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> You really should treat 3-4 days beyond the last visible sign. The is basically based off the lifecyle of ich. If the instructions say to do the water change, then do it and treat again. IMO, one treatment cycle is not enough, especially since with Quick Cure it is a pretty short cycle to begin with. If you don't follow this procedure you risk it coming back and this time it will be resistant to the meds and you may have difficulty getting rid of it. On losing the Neons, did you dose half a dose per time? Instructions say to apply only a half-dose for tetras.


The product I used was Super Ick. it's API product and it suppose to be replacement for Quick Cure that is not sold anymore in LFSs around. Instructions said 1/2 dose only for scaleless fish which I don't have. So I used full dose. Nothing about Tetras *Conf* Instructions says 2 treatments with 48 hours between, 82 degrees temp. I did all of that. Then 30% WC and adding back carbon (should happen tomorrow). I would do the cure again, but I am afraid to loose more fish. That's why I asked if I can take advantage of second tank (29gal). I could eventually put the fish there and treat it with 1/2 dose and in the meantime clean up big tank and maybe treat it with salt or something. After cleaning and few water changes, I can return fish in "refreshed" tank.


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