# First Aquarium: Nitrogen cycle



## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi, im new to this hobby and im trying to start the nitrogen cycle in my first attempt at an aquarium. I decided to do it without fish because I didnt like the "hardy" fish the store told me I could use. I was recomended to use API Stress Zyme to start the cycle. I filled the tank with the recomended ammount of conditioner and Stress Zyme 4 days ago and its been fitering since then. 

This might be a dumb question but how will I know when the Nitrogen cycle has started and its safe to put fish in? I only have these 5 in 1 testing strips that test for nitrate, nitrate, hardness, alkalinity and pH. Do I need something else? I really have no clue about any of this stuff and would appriciate anyones advice. Thanks.


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## longtail4711 (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi there! Welcome to the forum. I've got a tank cycling right now too. 

Strips are notorious for being faulty. Invest in the API master test kit. It's expensive, but very worth it for accurate readings and it's a lot of fun to play with too. 

Here's a really good article on fishless cycling and how to help it along: 

Fishless Cycling - Article at The Age of Aquariums - Tropical Fish

To help it along, scavenger hunt for these items: 

- Pure 10% diluted Ammonia. The stuff that has no surfactants, perfumes, or dyes in it. The way you can tell is to shake the bottle. If it looks like water and does NOT foam, it's the right stuff. Ammonia with surfactants in it foams up. Folks have had luck looking into Ace Hardware and Meijers. 

- The Stress Zyme may well work, but if you can, try to get some gravel from an established tank. If you have a friend with an established tank, ask them if you can have some of their gravel or even borrow an ornament from their tank for a while. This will "seed" your tank with the good bacteria you need. You could even ask your LFS or Petco if you can have some. Be sure not to let it get dry when transporting or the bacteria will die! 

- Turn the heat up in the tank to 85 degrees F. The bacteria love warmth! 

When Ammonia readings are zero, NitrIte readings are zero (these two should ALWAYS be at zero when you have fish), and you have NitrAte readings, you are ready for fish. Do a final large water change and you can add fish and plants. Just start off with a few of each, don't stock the tank completely immediately.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reply. That article helped a lot and answered most of my questions. Im gonna go find some ammonia, I haven't added any of that yet and it sounds like it wont work without it. Thanks for the tips and the answer to my question longtail, im sure ill have a lot more soon.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I use live plants and let them condition the tank for a week. Then add one fish and not add food for a week. 

the plants cosnume ammonia directly allowing the tank to safely support fish.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

So its been about a month now and Im still not ready for fish. 3 days ago I took some of the water into PetSmart for them to test it and the results came back as: 
Ammonia: 1.0 mg/L
Nitrite & Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.0
Alkalinity: 80 mg/L
Hardness: 50 mg/L
Chlorine & Chloramine: 0
Salinity: 0

They told me to leave the hoods open because the bacteria come from the air. Up to this point the water had been crystal clear but after leaving the hoods open the water turned cloudy. My question is, is this supposed to happen? Does the cloudy water mean the bacteria is growing or did something go wrong? I would appricate anyones advice, thanks.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Your tank looks like its in the beginning of cycling, like it just started, or didnt even start yet. You said you were going to cycle with fish but changed it to fishless cycling? If you are doing fishless cycling, you need to add straight ammonia to 5 or 6ppm. Your results show only 1ppm. Without the adequate ammonia, it wont provide enough food for the bacteria to grow. In order to test your water chemistry parameters you need a liquid test kit. When stores test your water they use strips and its inaccurate. When a tank goes cloudy, it means you have a bacteria bloom. It will go away after a few days. 

Heres what i posted earlier on someone elses thread.
For the cycling, you need to grow 2 sets of bacteria. One is ammonia-to-nitrite converting bacteria and the other is nitrite-to-nitrate converting bacteria. One cycling is done, and you test the water. It should read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and some readings of nitrate. 
For Ex.If you have high ammonia levels, with 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate, it means you have not grown the 1st set yet nor the 2nd set. And this usually occurs in the beginning of cycles.
Another Ex. If you have 0 ammonia, high nitrite, 0 nitrate, it means you have successfully grown the 1st set which converts ammonia to nitrite, but not the 2nd set, kinda get it? This usually happens midway along the cycle
Last Ex. If you read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and some readings of nitrate. It means you have grown both sets and you tank is cycled.*


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reply. I went and bought a water testing kit and the ammonia is actually closer to 4 ppm. It sounds like I just wasted a month with the hoods being closed lol. Ill probably be posting more questions in here soon, thanks again.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*If you are cycling with fish, you need to do about 70% water change right away, 4ppm is very high. But if you are doing fishless then its ok... even better if its 5ppm or 6ppm *


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

here is a graph of a planted tank I started. Notice how ammonia had a minor spike only lasting a day after adding a fish. also the pH here is the max of the api test kit (7.6) and actually was measured at 8+ with the high range test kit.

Stop doing whatever you are doing and let the ammonia drop down to 0.

with my planted tank there is no ammonia and the fish are never stressed.











my .02


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

The tank is still cloudy, it has been for over a week now. The ammonia is at about 6 or 7 ppm and still zero nitrite or nitrate. Im just wondering if its normal to be cloudy this long since NursePlaty said it should go away in a few days?

Also, do the lights being on or off have any effect on the cycling?

Thanks again.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lights on will afffect cycling levels due to plant action. Lights can also create cloudiness.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*It could last up to a week or a tad bit longer, it just means a bacterial bloom and means your tank is currently cycling. Continue to keep Ammonia at 5 or 6ppm and you will eventually see nitrites.*


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Its still cloudy and still no nitrate or nitrite with the ammonia now off the charts (8.0+). *frown

Im starting to think im not meant to have an aquarium... lol


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## Raimond (Jul 12, 2010)

Stay with it, when your ready to add fish you will love it. Nothing is harder in this hobby then waiting for a cycle to complete.. It will! Some take longer than others, but it must finish or you will loose fish if you try to rush.
Keep track of your tests, you will learn a lot doing this and it makes you feel a part of your tanks progress. The advice you have received is top notch, just follow it and keep us posted of whats happening. If something is not right the experts here (not me) can guide you through it.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Should I buy another bottle of Stress Zyme or something like that? The tank has been filled for about 6 weeks, Its been about 3 weeks since it turned cloudy (it still is cloudy) and I still have zero nitrate and nitrite with 8.0+ ammonia.

Is there anything I can add to help the first set of bacteria grow? Would turning the lights on help them grow? Thanks.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

cowboys9to19 said:


> Should I buy another bottle of Stress Zyme or something like that? The tank has been filled for about 6 weeks, Its been about 3 weeks since it turned cloudy (it still is cloudy) and I still have zero nitrate and nitrite with 8.0+ ammonia.
> 
> Is there anything I can add to help the first set of bacteria grow? Would turning the lights on help them grow? Thanks.


I would test the ammonia to see if the ammonia you have is locked or the dangerous free ammonia. Seachem has an ammonia multitest that tests for both kinds.

Forget adding chemicals. I would do nothing and just let the ammonia drop down and tank clear up.

Well I would add lotsa anacharis also.

but that's just me.

and my .02


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

So the tank is not cycling (about 2 months now) so I just bought 5 feeder fish and im going to see what happens. Ill let you guys know if they stay alive. Thanks for all the help so far BTW.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

They all died, im about to give up.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

cowboys9to19 said:


> They all died, im about to give up.


sorry to hear and I had your experiences at first until I started a planted tank.

So let me give you the short instructions.

empty tank

add 1" peat moss (from big bale not small packages)
add water to top of moss
level and clean
add 1" play sand
add water to top of sand
level and clean
add 1" pc select (or aquarium gravel)
add water to top of gravel
level and clean

(10g tank) add 4-6 bunches of anacharis, 4-6 vals, 4-6 small potted plants, and a single amazon sword.

fill tank to top pouring water over a saucer.

wait one week
add 1 male platy
wait 1 week with no food added
add 2 female plattys
start feeding 1 flake per day.


no filter, no air stone, no water changes just replace evaporative water with straight unteated tap water from a commonly used cold faucet.

Give that a try.

my .02


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

Cowboy, what kind of media are you running in your filter?


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

probe1957 said:


> Cowboy, what kind of media are you running in your filter?


Im not really sure what media im using. I bought an Aqueon power Filter 55 and im using the filters that came in the box with it. Is that what you were asking?


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

cowboys9to19 said:


> Im not really sure what media im using. I bought an Aqueon power Filter 55 and im using the filters that came in the box with it. Is that what you were asking?


Yes, but I am a rookie so don't look for advice from me.  The reason I asked is because I wonder if you are using something in your filter that is inhibiting the establishment of beneficial bacteria. 2 months just seems ridiculous to me and there MUST be a reason. The experts here will figure it out.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I think it is the fishless cycle methods themselves.

What can happen is the cycle especially the nitrItes part can "stall" and take weeks to get both ammonia and nitrItes down to 0.

In my limited non plant cycles I had a nitrIte cycle that lasted for over a month. Only when I stopped adding food did the nitrItes drop down. And that took like a week before I would get non maximum readings (5ppm) on the test kit. Then in 2 days they were at 0.

Just speculation here but I think he should have stopped adding the ammonia until the nitrItes dropped down then try lower levels of ammonia to see if ammonia and nitrItes remained at 0 while nitrates rose. then stop adding ammonia and stock up the tank.

But all the is really just specualtion because with live plants I get only very very small ammonia or nitrIte spikes that only last for 1 day. Even after adding the first fish and again with no food added for a week.

I do get an initial nitrate spike which drops down after 3 weeks. That indicates the aerobic bacteria is then consuming ammonia/nitrItes so the live plants are forced to consume the ntirates.

just my .02


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## jclee (Aug 17, 2010)

Maybe I missed it, but did you make sure the ammonia is pure and doesn't have any surfactants? That might be causing the cloudiness. Cloudiness is usually bacteria-related, (different from beneficial bacteria that causes cycling) so it could be that you're adding too much material (be it ammonia or flakes) that is fouling the water while it decomposes. 

How much light does the tank get? Any direct sunlight?

Hang in there. Fishless cycling takes a while, but it'll get there in the end. You could also buy an aquatic plant potted in filter fiber. That would be guaranteed to carry some beneficial bacteria from the fish store into your fish tank. Just leave it in the pot for a month or two.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You do need to make sure the ammonia source you're using doesn't have surfectants. You can check by shaking the bottle and see if it foams up. You should maybe a get a few bubbles, but they should go away almost instantly.

I am learning that fishless cycling can sometimes go fast and it can also go by pretty slow. This weekend will be 5wks I have been cycling a 125gal tank. I have seeded it with stuff from an established tank even. My nitrite readings are off the scale and nitrates, although they have been climbing, are in the 10-20 range.

I find it very strange you haven't seen nitrites yet. I have a 29gal that I am cycling also and I have ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates and it has only been about 2wks. I have used no seeding material in this tank.

I went out on a limb and bought Dr Tim's nitrifying bacteria to add and it should be here tomorrow. I'm just tired of waiting on this 125 I have. I'll post my results later.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jclee said:


> Maybe I missed it, but did you make sure the ammonia is pure and doesn't have any surfactants? That might be causing the cloudiness. Cloudiness is usually bacteria-related, (different from beneficial bacteria that causes cycling) so it could be that you're adding too much material (be it ammonia or flakes) that is fouling the water while it decomposes.
> 
> How much light does the tank get? Any direct sunlight?
> 
> Hang in there. Fishless cycling takes a while, but it'll get there in the end. You could also buy an aquatic plant potted in filter fiber. That would be guaranteed to carry some beneficial bacteria from the fish store into your fish tank. Just leave it in the pot for a month or two.


The tank gets no direct sunlight, I turn the lights on every once in a while only because it looks cool. Should the lights be left on for it to cycle?

Thanks, Ill try a potted plant as soon as I get some extra money.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> You do need to make sure the ammonia source you're using doesn't have surfectants. You can check by shaking the bottle and see if it foams up. You should maybe a get a few bubbles, but they should go away almost instantly.
> 
> I am learning that fishless cycling can sometimes go fast and it can also go by pretty slow. This weekend will be 5wks I have been cycling a 125gal tank. I have seeded it with stuff from an established tank even. My nitrite readings are off the scale and nitrates, although they have been climbing, are in the 10-20 range.
> 
> ...


The thing is im not using a bottle of ammonia. During the first couple of weeks I put a little bit of food in the tank to produce ammonia, but I only did that twice. I went through a entire bottle of Stress Zyme (biological filtration booster) and over the last month or so I havent added anything to the tank besides the fedder fish that died over night.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

cowboys9to19 said:


> The thing is im not using a bottle of ammonia. During the first couple of weeks I put a little bit of food in the tank to produce ammonia, but I only did that twice. I went through a entire bottle of Stress Zyme (biological filtration booster) and over the last month or so I havent added anything to the tank besides the fedder fish that died over night.


IMHO it is the use of chemicals/bottled bacteria that caused your problems.


there is no need to add bacteria to a cycling tank or to cycle a tank. They come to the tank at no charge.

With planted methods there is no ammonia/nitrite spikes.

By allowing the tank to build up bacteria and adding fish slowly even without the plants the bacteria will build up.

But that just my .02


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## jclee (Aug 17, 2010)

cowboys9to19 said:


> The thing is im not using a bottle of ammonia. During the first couple of weeks I put a little bit of food in the tank to produce ammonia, but I only did that twice. I went through a entire bottle of Stress Zyme (biological filtration booster) and over the last month or so I havent added anything to the tank besides the fedder fish that died over night.


There needs to be a constant and regular source of ammonia in order to feed and sustain a bacteria colony that will create a cycled tank. Without adding something -- whether straight-up ammonia, or fish flakes or something that will rot into ammonia -- into the tank on a daily basis, your tank will never cycle. Re-read your info on fishless cycling. It should give you a schedule of how much to add and how often.

Stress zyme, from what I understand, doesn't really cycle your tank for you. Most of the products that claim to cycle a tank do not, although some people have had luck with Tetra Safe Start.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jclee said:


> There needs to be a constant and regular source of ammonia in order to feed and sustain a bacteria colony that will create a cycled tank. Without adding something -- whether straight-up ammonia, or fish flakes or something that will rot into ammonia -- into the tank on a daily basis, your tank will never cycle. Re-read your info on fishless cycling. It should give you a schedule of how much to add and how often.
> 
> Stress zyme, from what I understand, doesn't really cycle your tank for you. Most of the products that claim to cycle a tank do not, although some people have had luck with Tetra Safe Start.


So even thought the tank is way over the recommended 4-6 PPM of ammonia, I should still be adding more daily?


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## jclee (Aug 17, 2010)

cowboys9to19 said:


> So even thought the tank is way over the recommended 4-6 PPM of ammonia, I should still be adding more daily?


My mistake. I forgot that your ammonia was that high right now. You're probably right that you can skip a little while. I'd probably keep adding a little tiny bit each day up until I got the fish, but that's more because I would start to forget if it weren't routine.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

Went through an entire bottle of AmQuel+ to remove the ammonia and its still off the charts. I guess ill buy another bottle but this is getting ridiculous...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Amquel will not remove ammonia, it only renders it "non-toxic". The readings you get on your testing will not change. All accrding to the label anyway.

My advice, stop adding chemicals. It will only stall your progress. What are your nitirites doing?


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Amquel will not remove ammonia, it only renders it "non-toxic". The readings you get on your testing will not change. All accrding to the label anyway.
> 
> My advice, stop adding chemicals. It will only stall your progress. What are your nitirites doing?


Nitrite and nitrate are both zero.

I guess that makes sense why the readings are still the same, how will I know if all the ammonia has been rendered non-toxic? Just throw more fish in there? I dont think my progress can be anymore stalled than it is, im on month 4 lol


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You are using an API test kit, right? If you have fish in there, haven't read back over the whole thread, do a 50% water change as soon as you can. Wait a day and if it is still reading high do a 25% and keep doing 25% daily until it comes down.

Stop adding ANY liquid additive!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

cowboys9to19 said:


> Nitrite and nitrate are both zero.
> 
> I guess that makes sense why the readings are still the same, how will I know if all the ammonia has been rendered non-toxic? Just throw more fish in there? I dont think my progress can be anymore stalled than it is, im on month 4 lol


Seachem has a ammonia multi test kit that does test for both total (free and locked) ammnonia as well as free ammonia. Not the easiest to use or most accurate but if you get 3ppm total ammonia but only .25 ppm free ammonia you can be assured most your ammonia is locked. 

see:

Seachem. MultiTest: Ammonia

my .02


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> You are using an API test kit, right? If you have fish in there, haven't read back over the whole thread, do a 50% water change as soon as you can. Wait a day and if it is still reading high do a 25% and keep doing 25% daily until it comes down.
> 
> Stop adding ANY liquid additive!


Yes, API master kit. 

I went back to the store to try and buy something else, the guy told me I was wasting my money and gave me 2 giant goldfish looking things to put in. They have been in there almost 24 hours now and they are still alive. I tried this with feeder fish before I tired nutralizing the ammonia and they died almost instantly. 

How long do you think they need to stay alive for me to know the water is safe?


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> Seachem has a ammonia multi test kit that does test for both total (free and locked) ammnonia as well as free ammonia. Not the easiest to use or most accurate but if you get 3ppm total ammonia but only .25 ppm free ammonia you can be assured most your ammonia is locked.
> 
> see:
> 
> ...


Thanks ill try that out.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

cowboys9to19 said:


> How long do you think they need to stay alive for me to know the water is safe?


Kind of an open-ended question....until they die of natural causes I guess.

Just do the 50% water change and see what your ammonia readings are after. Post them here.


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Kind of an open-ended question....until they die of natural causes I guess.
> 
> Just do the 50% water change and see what your ammonia readings are after. Post them here.


Yea it is, let me rephrase that. How long should I wait before putting the fish I want in there. If they live for a week do you think it would be safe?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not until the tank has cycled, unless you just want to keep killing fish. 

Did you do the 50% water change yet? If not, do that and test for ammonia and nitrite. Post what your readings are.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I really really screwed up once with a marine tank. The fish in the tank were breathing heavy in a matter of hours/minutes and two died in hours. Ammonia with the api test kit was very very "pegged". Several other fish were "on their last legs" with one actually horizontal instead of vertical. I removed as many fish as I could to another tank and the sick fish recovered in a matter of hours/minutes with the horizontal fish back to the vertical position. I treated the tank with prime per instructions for a 8ppm ammonia level. The 2-3 fish that I could not get out survived. After treatment total ammonia was still over 5ppm but free ammonia was .25-.5ppm or so. Ammonia continued to peg the apu test kit for a week until I took action. After that ammonia dropped to 0 in 2 days. Then nitrItes pegged the kit for a few days and nitrAtes started to rise. PH also crashed for 3 weeks. then nitrates dropped and ph rose.

I returned the fish to the tank after ammonia dropped down.

this all occurred with no water changes.

So IME if you have very high ammonia the fish will be breathing heavy almost immediately and die in hours. Can't say about lower levels but from my experience the danger from ammonia is apparent almost instantly. But it can take hours or days for ammonia to reach those levels. In my case I accdentially added a toxin to the tank so the ammonia was there instantly.

my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

So how is the tank doing now?


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## cowboys9to19 (Nov 23, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> So how is the tank doing now?


Its still has the same off the charts ammount of ammonia as last week but the two gold fish are still alive. I did the big water change and that didnt seem to affect it much either. 

I went to the aquarium store again yesterday to talk to the same guy I've been working with. In a last attempt I replaced the filters (I guess sometimes you can get bad ones?) and bought some ammo-chips (looks like gravel but is supposed to take out only ammonia). I just changed the filters, put in the ammo-chips and did another 20% water change about 2 hours ago. The ammo-chips dont say how long they take to work but ill let you know if I notice them doing anything.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Well....I know it has been a while for your cycle, but replacing any filter media may have been a bad idea. Hopefully you didn't replace all parts if you have multiple filter pieces. Your filter will house much of the needed beneficial bacteria, both during and long after your cycle.

Have you tested for nitrites lately? How old is the test kit you have for ammonia? I would do a 50% water change tomorrow or the next day. 

Not sure how your fish have survived through this, but they seem pretty hardy.


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## probe1957 (Jul 2, 2010)

Cowboy, I am in the middle of my first fishless cycle too. Just in the past few days, about two weeks into the cycle, I got my first nitrite reading. It was, and remains, off the chart. I dose daily (once the ammonia started being consumed) to take the ammonia level to 1-2 ppm. It is consumed in 24 hours. I started the cycle at about 4-6 ppm ammonia.

BTW, I keep the hood on my tank closed and only added Prime water conditioner when I first set the tank up.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

probe1957 said:


> Cowboy, I am in the middle of my first fishless cycle too. Just in the past few days, about two weeks into the cycle, I got my first nitrite reading. It was, and remains, off the chart. I dose daily (once the ammonia started being consumed) to take the ammonia level to 1-2 ppm. It is consumed in 24 hours. I started the cycle at about 4-6 ppm ammonia.
> 
> BTW, I keep the hood on my tank closed and only added Prime water conditioner when I first set the tank up.


If you don't watch it your nitrite will peg and stay there for a long time - if you keep up daily doses. Personally, I'd back off to half of your normal dose and only every 2-3 days. Just a rec. Speaking from my most recent experience. Had to do 3 water changes at 50% or greater (125g tank) to get my nitrites down to levels that could be controlled.


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## AbadHabit (Sep 9, 2010)

I tryed it all when I first started my 10 gal. 3 months worth, 10 fish and a lot of additives. OK..Here's my snap. Hard water..I have it..off the charts, and it's city water. 8ppm+ off the chart ammonia. Had to age my water til it had no ammonia before the ammonia in the tank would break down and start cycling. The additives wouldn't work because the water was so hard. After I figured it out in 3 weeks - 0 ammonia 0 nitrites 30 nitrates 6.2 ph and still hard water. But all my fish do fine in it and no problems with my plants. Just another thought from my experience. Oh.. both my tanks will go up and down a little on the readings, but they both are a little overstocked. DING..almost forgot...I also left the tank uncovered and plenty of light and warm water. 80+ untill it cycled.


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## jesica (Sep 8, 2010)

I have also similarly problem. all replies are welcome.
Thanks for this great sharing.


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## jons4real (Sep 6, 2010)

I cant wait to start mine!


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