# Substrate arrangement



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm coming out on the tail end of a cottonmouth infection that wiped out half of my bloodfin tetras, and as a preventative measure I absolutely tore apart my 29 gallon (see picture...R.I.P.). I'm going to do a complete overhaul - strip the tank down, clean the hard water deposits off the top with vinegar, scrub the walls, and ESPECIALLY rinse and clean my Fluorite substrate.

I see the need for a layer of peat moss, so that I will do. I'm planning on not doing sand for several reasons, the biggest of which is that I already have 2" of Fluorite in there and I really don't want to take any out. I was also thinking of putting an under-gravel filter plate at the bottom of it all, in case I ever decide to use one. Here are my questions:

1. Are there any other advantages to peat moss besides the hardness buffering? If not, I might just put some peat moss in my filter.
2. Should I look at another bottom layer instead, like mineralized potting soil or something like that?
3. I was under the impression that anaerobic bacteria in the substrate generate bubbles of toxic hydrogen sulfide gas and can occasionally incite "eruptions" of said gas. Should I try and avoid this by doing away with the UGF plate?
4. How effective would an UGF be with 3" of substrate and live plants on top of it? Would the plants` roots clog the plate? (I kind of want them to, truth be told).

Thanks, looking forward to your opinions and answers


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm a noob but interested in seeing what everyone has to say. The UGF I believe would be pointless for you, the hydrogen sulfide gas you speak of is I think mostly found in Deep Sand Beds 3" or more and is caused by decaying plant matter.

Here is a good post regarding the dangers of DSB and the hydrogen sulfide gas you mentioned.

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f67/dsb-dangers-12019.html


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

mec102778 said:


> I'm a noob but interested in seeing what everyone has to say. The UGF I believe would be pointless for you, the hydrogen sulfide gas you speak of is I think mostly found in Deep Sand Beds 3" or more and is caused by decaying plant matter.
> 
> Here is a good post regarding the dangers of DSB and the hydrogen sulfide gas you mentioned.
> 
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f67/dsb-dangers-12019.html


Thanks for the article! I'll be doing some research on the sulfate system in freshwater tanks now


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Beaslbob get's the credit it's his post. But you're welcome and good luck reading.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

The sulfur cycle in aquariums refers to excess sulfate ionized in the water being turned into hydrogen sulfide by anaerobic nitrifying bacteria buried in the substrate. Without a deep substrate bed, there will be no hydrogen sulfide (hopefully). I typically dose K2SO4, however, which in excess can be converted to hydrogen sulfide by said bacteria. I guess I should purchase a sulfate or sulfur testing kit to make sure I'm not dosing too much (thus far I have been dosing too much nitrate in KNO3 form and phosphate in K2PO4 form).

Going online to shop now! 

Source:
Aquarium (and Pond) Answers: Hydrogen Sulfides


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Alright, so here's what I'm gonna do:

1" Peat moss mixed with Laterite
2" Fluorite substrate

No UGF plate.

Source:
Basics to starting a Planted Tank - The Planted Tank


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

i just use eco complete, its a little pricey but ive never had issues and my plants grow like wild fire in it. Much less messy too.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> i just use eco complete, its a little pricey but ive never had issues and my plants grow like wild fire in it. Much less messy too.


Agreed. However, I already have the Fluorite in the tank, and I would like to keep using it. I'm just looking for a good way to ease back on my EI dry chem fertz dosing by boosting the mineral content of my substrate.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I think you're on the right track.

FWIW the DSB dangers I posted was in a marine environment. with marine tanks there are no true fast growing plants with circulation systems. So the reef types use the anaerobic bacteria to reduce nitrates. That process is low/no oxygen bacteria to reduce nitrates to nitrItes then to nitrogen gas. In addition to the sulfur compounds it is also possible with the "wrong conditions" to further reduce the nitrItes to ammonia which is obviously not good.

But all that does not apply to FW tank where true rooted plants are constantly slowly circulating the water through the substrate.

Additionally in both fw and marine system with plant life, the plant life rapidily consumes any ammonia in the system and eventually keeps nitrates at bay. That even happens with marine systems where various algaes balance out the system. So the anaerobic/anoxic bacteria has much less nitrates to consume.



I use the peat/sand/pc select because the peat keeps kh and gh constant, the sand helps roots the plants, and the pc select (hopefully) returns some good stuff but basically it looks nice. And neon tetras do much better with the peat vrs a sand only substrate.
I layer it to prevent the initial cloudiness and the result is an almost instantly clear tank.

I did a 1g test jar with peat moss and soilmaster select. It was successful and a neon tetra lived in that jar for 2 years. I did have to (at one time) kill the lights for a week due to a white/blue cloudiness. Which cleared up and never cam back after the blackout. I also had a 10w pig tail lighting up the jar so that could have caused the cloudiness also.

I have never used any of the aquarium products (Laterite/Fluorite) so can't say. I suspect that peat moss may be redundant with some of those. My sand/peat moss combination seems to help some plants like wisteria. So I guess some "organics" helps.

But then with thriving plants the tank will be very forgiving of any substrate and water conditions and so on.

but overall I think you are on the right track.

Have you thought of using potassium nitrate (stump remover) to dose potassium?

keep us posted.

my .02


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Have you thought of using potassium nitrate (stump remover) to dose potassium?


Thanks for the thoughts bob and everyone else. Just went out and bought some sphygnum (sp?) peat moss and am soaking it now.

Also glad to hear hydrogen sulfide is not such a big problem in FW tanks. Irregardless, I'm going to keep my substrate to 3" to prevent excess anaerobic bacteria from growing down there.

I have a bag full of K2SO4 which I dose potassium with. Stump remover sounds like a great idea, but I'll only be looking at that once I've exhausted my potassium sulfate. I asked about that because in my research it mentioned that excess sulfate ions in the tank would serve as fuel for anaerobic bacteria, and a byproduct would be hydrogen sulfide. I would love to make sure I'm not overdosing potassium, but I haven't found a test kit for potassium aside from a bottle of strips that comes in a $130 drinking water test kit. :/


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Pssst: Sphagnum *old dude

( And I have to look it up every time.)

good idea to soak it and that is what I do only with the sand on top to hold it all down.


Keep us posted.


my .02


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## saltydad (Jun 27, 2008)

If I may horn in for a minute to your thread, I have a related question. I have a 20long with a sand/gravel bed. Lighting is by a single 20 watt Power Glo bulb. I am changing over to a dual T5 HO fixture. I would like to add Eco Complete to my substrate. Do I have to remove all the sand? Can I mix it? Lay it on top?
Thanks for the help.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

saltydad said:


> If I may horn in for a minute to your thread, I have a related question. I have a 20long with a sand/gravel bed. Lighting is by a single 20 watt Power Glo bulb. I am changing over to a dual T5 HO fixture. I would like to add Eco Complete to my substrate. Do I have to remove all the sand? Can I mix it? Lay it on top?
> Thanks for the help.


I would lay it on top, beaslbob build-style


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

saltydad said:


> If I may horn in for a minute to your thread, I have a related question. I have a 20long with a sand/gravel bed. Lighting is by a single 20 watt Power Glo bulb. I am changing over to a dual T5 HO fixture. I would like to add Eco Complete to my substrate. Do I have to remove all the sand? Can I mix it? Lay it on top?
> Thanks for the help.


You could do either. May be sort of cool to mix them. Good thing about Eco is it doesn't need to be rinsed...just pour it in.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have mixed them together,and it works good.User preference really.If you look through my gallery or my macrostoma tank journal,you will see the beginning pics its mixed together.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Ended up overhauling my tank last night instead of this afternoon, things went well. Lost a minimum of my Fluorite while cleaning it thoroughly. I used the tank as my bucket - emptied all the water, carried it outside, tipped it on its side on the driveway (at an angle due to the slope of the driveway), and hosed the gravel down very well.

Added my soaked Sphagnum (sp?) peat moss in a half-half method, shoving all the Fluorite to one side of the tank, layering peat moss and Laterite, then pushing the Fluorite up over the peat moss to the other side of the tank to cover the remaining half in peat moss. Smoothed everything out, arranged rocks&stuff, filled 1/3 with water, planted half of my original plants, topped off, and let run. Less than 12 hours later, crystal clear water.

Unfortunately, due to necessity of not overcrowding my other tanks, my originally sick bloodfins and rasboras went right back into the main tank. I didn't change my filter media save for fresh carbon, and I added the giant-sized bottle of Tetra SafeStart (says for up to 70 gallons) in hopes I don't run into a cycle. Set up my CO2 and drop checker this morning, will post water parameters this afternoon.


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## mec102778 (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow the tank looks great, your substrate is D E E P but looks nice.  once all is right with my house (wife) I'm going to dive right into the planted tank world.


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

I would have waited on the co2 for a little bit, just IMO i like to do things slow. Was also wondering if you washed the plants and what not? Ive redone similar sized tanks with new substrate, replacing gravel with ecocomplete and i ran into a small phesdo cycle but nitrites never really spiked.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> I would have waited on the co2 for a little bit, just IMO i like to do things slow. Was also wondering if you washed the plants and what not? Ive redone similar sized tanks with new substrate, replacing gravel with ecocomplete and i ran into a small phesdo cycle but nitrites never really spiked.


I didn't wash the plants because they are not new additions. When my fish got sick, I tore everything out of my main tank and stuck it in water-filled buckets. They are the same plants I had in the tank for years.

Tested my water tonight - 0.25 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 nitrate, pH 6.8. Drop checker is green, and started up my old UV filter to clean any bad stuff out, just as a precaution.

I'm also hoping the peat moss decomposes more thoroughly and packs down better because you're right - I ended up with much deeper substrate than I wanted. I think I got a little peat-moss-happy.

I was reluctant to start up CO2 immediately as well, but I thought about it and I really see no harm in starting it. I've got a drop checker and a great bubble counter, and with them I'm green on the drop checker and only pumping in 1 bps.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

tony's aquarium said:


> i am a noob. i just want to know everyone's oppinion,and i will do somehome work.


If you have any questions for any of us, even questions you might think are dumb, we'll answer them to the best of our ability. Just post them in a new thread on the general or beginner forums


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mec102778 said:


> Wow the tank looks great, your substrate is D E E P but looks nice.  once all is right with my house (wife) I'm going to dive right into the planted tank world.


wouldn't that have to be an awfully big tank for you to dive into?*old dude


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I didn't wash the plants because they are not new additions. When my fish got sick, I tore everything out of my main tank and stuck it in water-filled buckets. They are the same plants I had in the tank for years.
> 
> Tested my water tonight - 0.25 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 nitrate, pH 6.8. Drop checker is green, and started up my old UV filter to clean any bad stuff out, just as a precaution.
> 
> ...


Looks like a good (re)build.

PH is a little low but IMHO will rise quickly. the final pH on my uncirculated, unfiltered (mechanical) tanks is purple (8.4-8.8) on the api high range test kit.

Low/no ammonia and some initial nitrates is also part of the planted cycle.

I would not add food fo up to a week just to make sure things are controlled by the plants.

But it does look nice and I hope it is rewarding to you.


my .02


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Looks like a good (re)build.PH is a little low but IMHO will rise quickly. the final pH on my uncirculated, unfiltered (mechanical) tanks is purple (8.4-8.8) on the api high range test kit


It's artificially low because I've already begun injecting CO2. I think I'm enamored with my hardware almost as much as what is inside the tank.


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## saltydad (Jun 27, 2008)

Does Eco Complete need to be renewed, or is it a one time addition to/as the substrate?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

saltydad said:


> Does Eco Complete need to be renewed, or is it a one time addition to/as the substrate?


I have no idea the length of time Eco is good for, but in my estimation you would want to overhaul the tank maybe every year or two years? If you put a bottom layer of mineralized topsoil and some potting clay, then a layer of sand, you feasibly would never have to touch the soil because it is so mineral rich and plant-friendly. The only reason I didn't do that is because I needed to act quick as I had fish ready and waiting to go back into the tank. Next build, I will.

Source:
How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate, by Aaron Talbot - Library - Aquatic Plant Central


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

saltydad said:


> Does Eco Complete need to be renewed, or is it a one time addition to/as the substrate?


I have heard every 2-3 years, but only in a couple of places. You can always go to root tabs if it starts to go.


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

Ive never heard of having to "renew it". I put root tabs in my tanks every few months.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

how long does a beaslbob build last b4 you need to redo that


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> how long does a beaslbob build last b4 you need to redo that


I've had tanks run for over 3 years with kh and gh remaining constant and fish thriving.

I've had plain sand with plattys and guppies last for over 8 years but kh and gh did rise.

I read someplace an excerpt from dianna walstad's book that with co2 the substrate (with potting soil) only lasts for a couple of years. but without co2 addition the substrate lasts at least 4 years or more.

Just my .02


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