# breeding hybrid cichlids



## fishboy

I would like your opinion on breeding hybrid cichlids


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## navigator black

My opinion is that is unethical if you are doing it from greed, and if you have a reason other than greed and you aren't working on the study of genetics, it is not logical and not ethical at once.
hey, you asked for opinions ;-)


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## fishboy

I think there is a hybrid that there should be, the flowerhorn. if there could only be 1 hybrid I would make it the flowerhorn


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## Auban

unless you have a specific goal in mind, i also find it unethical.


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## rift lake

as long as you arent selling them and keeping them out of the market, go for it


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## dalfed

rift lake said:


> as long as you arent selling them and keeping them out of the market, go for it


The only problem I have with this mentality is that without 100% certainty that none of the hybridised fish ever get given to friends or back to LFS or exchanged even two or three generations down the line when they are back possibly looking identical to the original they can mess up entire species,

My thoughts on original question is what makes humans think that we should mess around with nature to suit our ideas, there are at least a thousand types of cichlids in Lake Malawi alone! Surely one of these must be pretty enough for you.


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## fishboy

OK,I never plan to give away fish. We don't even have 2. Just a white convict.


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## startsmall

is it unethical to cross breed dogs? I do not really have an opinion either way so I am playing the devils advocate here. What if you were playing around in your basement and created the next labrodoodle...not only is it a great new dog but you would be able to make a significant profit I would think. Is there a good reason to do it? No not with all of the selection already available...is there a good reason not to do it? not really unless you have bad intentions of returning it to the wild which could be harmful. So I say....meh.


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## Auban

startsmall said:


> is it unethical to cross breed dogs? I do not really have an opinion either way so I am playing the devils advocate here. What if you were playing around in your basement and created the next labrodoodle...not only is it a great new dog but you would be able to make a significant profit I would think. Is there a good reason to do it? No not with all of the selection already available...is there a good reason not to do it? not really unless you have bad intentions of returning it to the wild which could be harmful. So I say....meh.


i would like to point out that breeding two different breeds of dogs wouldnt produce a hybrid. breeding two different lines of guppies also doesnt produce a true hybrid. breeding two different species of fish does, and it usually results in fish with completely different (and often defective) traits than either of the two parent fish had. 

a good example of why you shouldnt create hybrid fish is the red shiner. it will hybridize with anything that resembles it and by doing so has wiped out native fish across entire water systems all over america. there are entire regions that no longer have any of the original shiners since the offspring shared the red shiners strange ability to hybridize with everything. all that is left now is a hodgepodge of hybrids that will never again show the same variety they used to.

in the pet trade, the JD cichlid pretty much does the same thing(if you let it).


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## tbub1221

Auban said:


> i would like to point out that breeding two different breeds of dogs wouldnt produce a hybrid. breeding two different lines of guppies also doesnt produce a true hybrid. breeding two different species of fish does, and it usually results in fish with completely different (and often defective) traits than either of the two parent fish had.
> 
> a good example of why you shouldnt create hybrid fish is the red shiner. it will hybridize with anything that resembles it and by doing so has wiped out native fish across entire water systems all over america. there are entire regions that no longer have any of the original shiners since the offspring shared the red shiners strange ability to hybridize with everything. all that is left now is a hodgepodge of hybrids that will never again show the same variety they used to.
> 
> in the pet trade, the JD cichlid pretty much does the same thing(if you let it).


I agree with this some what , i could not nor would not ever try and make my cichlids cross breed or sell or give away off spring , but if by some shock of nature a few did the damn think and gave me little sterile l baby's with 2 tails and 3 eyes id care for them all the same and be excited to care for them and watch them grow. 
This may piss off a few people but i'll say it regardless . Its your hobby to do with and enjoy as you like. Thats not a ticket to be unethical about things . 
But if you provide good clean water and a healthy environment and things happen so be it .


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## coralbandit

Auban said:


> i would like to point out that breeding two different breeds of dogs wouldnt produce a hybrid. breeding two different lines of guppies also doesnt produce a true hybrid. breeding two different species of fish does, and it usually results in fish with completely different (and often defective) traits than either of the two parent fish had.
> 
> .


On that note and being a breeder of swordtails(what you see is not what you get) and also a breeder of SILVER LABRADORS(dogs),that there is a third leg to every breed;That of the parent(s) of the parents.Often many breed thinking what they have will make this,but have no knowledge of the parents of their breed stock.Often that is in great part where unforseen issues arise.To look at and observe the mother and father is not to know at all what the grandparents were like.This is why pedigree's and formal documentation is required to call a "miscolored" dog a lab.
With rare fish ,I'll use the snowflake clownfish for example,as I just purchased 2 a couple weeks ago,there are only so many suppliers of this coloration(possibly as few as 3 or 4) so a call from many for a fish pedigree was mentioned.True documentation of the "origins" of any creature that people want to place a legit lable on seems to be necessary.
So if you were to wish to "hybrid" breed I would recommend breeding(or acquiring)stock to be true(no pedigree will certainly make this diffacult if not bring out every skeptic in sight).But start with stock you have positive ID on and breed true once or twice.Then take your "true "breeds and cross so you have positive ID on 2 or 3 legs of their family tree.That will ensure a history that can be documented and proven.Then you can say for sure this is......


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## dalfed

coralbandit said:


> On that note and being a breeder of swordtails(what you see is not what you get) and also a breeder of SILVER LABRADORS(dogs),that there is a third leg to every breed;That of the parent(s) of the parents.Often many breed thinking what they have will make this,but have no knowledge of the parents of their breed stock.Often that is in great part where unforseen issues arise.To look at and observe the mother and father is not to know at all what the grandparents were like.This is why pedigree's and formal documentation is required to call a "miscolored" dog a lab.
> With rare fish ,I'll use the snowflake clownfish for example,as I just purchased 2 a couple weeks ago,there are only so many suppliers of this coloration(possibly as few as 3 or 4) so a call from many for a fish pedigree was mentioned.True documentation of the "origins" of any creature that people want to place a legit lable on seems to be necessary.
> So if you were to wish to "hybrid" breed I would recommend breeding(or acquiring)stock to be true(no pedigree will certainly make this diffacult if not bring out every skeptic in sight).But start with stock you have positive ID on and breed true once or twice.Then take your "true "breeds and cross so you have positive ID on 2 or 3 legs of their family tree.That will ensure a history that can be documented and proven.Then you can say for sure this is......


The difference is that you are talking line breeding not mixing swordtails and guppies. The Endler may be extinct in the wild if people keep breeding them with common guppies there is no hope of returning this species back to the wild.


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## startsmall

Auban said:


> i would like to point out that breeding two different breeds of dogs wouldnt produce a hybrid. breeding two different lines of guppies also doesnt produce a true hybrid. breeding two different species of fish does, and it usually results in fish with completely different (and often defective) traits than either of the two parent fish had.
> 
> a good example of why you shouldnt create hybrid fish is the red shiner. it will hybridize with anything that resembles it and by doing so has wiped out native fish across entire water systems all over america. there are entire regions that no longer have any of the original shiners since the offspring shared the red shiners strange ability to hybridize with everything. all that is left now is a hodgepodge of hybrids that will never again show the same variety they used to.
> 
> in the pet trade, the JD cichlid pretty much does the same thing(if you let it).


I think this is a point that everyone has made...don't return these fish to the wild, or to the pet store, or sell them on craigslist. But if someone wants to experiment, I say have fun. But don't let them leave the house. Frankenstein would have been fine if he wouldn't have gotten out of the house. So breed away and if you get some cool looking results, keep them to yourself, no matter how much your friends want one, and no matter how much people on the forums try to buy them, otherwise....you ARE being unethical.


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## rwatkins1018

I agree with the last post. I may be late in the game on this topic, however, I do feel compelled to make one final note. People who make references in order to dissuade someone from doing something they believe is unethical (re: the comments about red shiners), need to make citations in order to back up those statements. That's just bullying when you don't provide anything to substantiate your claims. Red shiners being released into non-native water systems by fisherman dumping their bait buckets and then breeding like wild fire with other minnows (Nonindigenous Aquatic Species Shiner Research), has nothing to do with someone wanting to experiment with cross-breeding their cichlids in the privacy of their own home. 

The point should be this -- never, ever, release aquarium fish into the wild and don't try to sell your hybrids or pass them on so as to keep the species true. Unethical people do this with fish, dogs, cats, birds -- you name it. And the poor schmuck that acquires these animals with the intent to breed/sell/show, gets a 'not-so-cool' surprise when they breed them. In the case of pedigreed animals, AKC has strict requirements along with stiff penalties for non-compliance (http://images.akc.org/pdf/record_keeping.pdf). And make absolutely certain if you plan to breed fish for sale or trade, that your stock comes from a reputable source (you KNOW that the yellow labs you just bought, are truly yellow labs) and that you keep them in a species-only tank.

Respectfully, rwatkins


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## Goby

rwatkins1018 said:


> I agree with the last post. I may be late in the game on this topic, however, I do feel compelled to make one final note. People who make references in order to dissuade someone from doing something they believe is unethical (re: the comments about red shiners), need to make citations in order to back up those statements. That's just bullying when you don't provide anything to substantiate your claims. Red shiners being released into non-native water systems by fisherman dumping their bait buckets and then breeding like wild fire with other minnows (Nonindigenous Aquatic Species Shiner Research), has nothing to do with someone wanting to experiment with cross-breeding their cichlids in the privacy of their own home.
> 
> The point should be this -- never, ever, release aquarium fish into the wild and don't try to sell your hybrids or pass them on so as to keep the species true. Unethical people do this with fish, dogs, cats, birds -- you name it. And the poor schmuck that acquires these animals with the intent to breed/sell/show, gets a 'not-so-cool' surprise when they breed them. In the case of pedigreed animals, AKC has strict requirements along with stiff penalties for non-compliance (http://images.akc.org/pdf/record_keeping.pdf). And make absolutely certain if you plan to breed fish for sale or trade, that your stock comes from a reputable source (you KNOW that the yellow labs you just bought, are truly yellow labs) and that you keep them in a species-only tank.
> 
> Respectfully, rwatkins


In theory, you're right. It's not kind to rudely reprimand novice or seasoned fish keepers for the interest they show in breeding fish...including unknown hybrids. And it does seem like bullying when the message is delivered so abruptly...no need for that. It's much more effective to support and educate each other with thoughtful and reasonable responses.

With that, fish keepers and environmentalists in general have a host of legitimate concerns when it comes to crossbreeding fish. Realistically, experimenting "in the privacy of ones own home", is not always realistic...not when you're talking dozens to hundreds of fry per spawn, some of which are a physiological mess. Many novice keepers (and even seasoned in my case), do not have the stomach to destroy unfit fry. Those well-intentioned individuals will often...not occasionally...but often desperately resort to giving their unwanted hybrids to fellow fish keepers or worse, they secretly release them into lakes/streams because it's easier on their conscience. Notably, they do both without fully understanding the consequences of their actions...which aren't always significant due to mother natures ability to make hybrids sterile. But sometimes mother natures fails, and the hybrids reproduce, and the result can cause a devastating ecological shift. Breeding hybrids is a high risk activity and IMO, not a wise hobby interest...not in the big picture. Animals, including fish, are not Arts-and-Crafts...not IMO anyway. 

Can hybrids be produced responsibly? ...perhaps. But that depends on whether you're talking about responsible practices for the environment, or responsible practices for the unwanted hybrids. Some would argue it's inhuman to purposely produce unfit hybrids for fun...which is another discussion entirely. It seems whenever the topic involves animals, it gets heated. Animal rights advocates tend to be extremely passionate about their cause...rightfully so, but not always rightfully delivered.


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## rwatkins1018

Educate, educate, educate...

Here is an excellent article on the topic, written by Willem Heijns: Hybrids and other 'threats' to the hobby by Willem Heijns - The Cichlid Room Companion

In the end, to prevent hybridization we would have to put a moratorium on mixing fish of different species. I doubt this will ever happen. You would have to put a fish-cop in every pet store to screen people and tell them what fish they can or cannot buy.

Hopefully anyone who seriously sets out to breed fish will spend that energy breeding single species. It's a fun hobby, and successfully breeding fish and raising the fry is amazing. And if we keep to breeding true species, the wild population won't suffer and we can continue to study fish how they are in the wild -- recreating as close as possible an environment that simulates how they live in the wild and thereby study their natural behaviors. Isn't that what keeping fish is about?

Cheers, r.


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## StevenT

coralbandit said:


> On that note and being a breeder of swordtails(what you see is not what you get) and also a breeder of SILVER LABRADORS(dogs),that there is a third leg to every breed;That of the parent(s) of the parents.Often many breed thinking what they have will make this,but have no knowledge of the parents of their breed stock.Often that is in great part where unforseen issues arise.To look at and observe the mother and father is not to know at all what the grandparents were like.This is why pedigree's and formal documentation is required to call a "miscolored" dog a lab.
> With rare fish ,I'll use the snowflake clownfish for example,as I just purchased 2 a couple weeks ago,there are only so many suppliers of this coloration(possibly as few as 3 or 4) so a call from many for a fish pedigree was mentioned.True documentation of the "origins" of any creature that people want to place a legit lable on seems to be necessary.
> So if you were to wish to "hybrid" breed I would recommend breeding(or acquiring)stock to be true(no pedigree will certainly make this diffacult if not bring out every skeptic in sight).But start with stock you have positive ID on and breed true once or twice.Then take your "true "breeds and cross so you have positive ID on 2 or 3 legs of their family tree.That will ensure a history that can be documented and proven.Then you can say for sure this is......


 Silver Labradors - The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.


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## coralbandit

StevenT said:


> Silver Labradors - The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.


This is the MOST CONTOVERSIAL AKC registered dog going still today.Many,many bad articles are written with as many good ones.
There really is alot of info about them,but no two sites agree on anything except where they were originated from.Two breeders and only two!Cristo Culo and Beavercreek.
After that ,the arguing about DNA proving them to be/or that DNA can't prove anything goes on and on.
The piont was with a pedigree(an honest one) you at least know where they came from.All my silver labs are traceable back to Cristo culo,and beavercreek,but have a million miles inbetween!
True breeders of fish are meticulous about male female interaction,and the seperation of species.Cichlids (unfortunately) breed like rabbits for even beginner fish keepers who never suspected or kept track of anything.


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## StevenT

coralbandit said:


> This is the MOST CONTOVERSIAL AKC registered dog going still today.Many,many bad articles are written with as many good ones.
> There really is alot of info about them,but no two sites agree on anything except where they were originated from.


Except this articles is from the LRC. Who, for all intense and purposes, happen to be the final word for everything dealing with the Labrador Retriever. They are the national club blessed such by the AKC and are trusted by the Labrador community to protect the breed.


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## Goby

And as soon as the hoity-toity Parent Clubs and their String Master, aka the "AKC" start to recognize working dogs for their working ability first, and their display of mindless conformation fads LAST...maybe both organizations will gain some respect amongst reputable purebred dog breeders.

We have 8 stag hounds and the BEST thing that *never* happened to the breed...is the AKC.

We have 4 Pekingese and the WORST thing that ever happened to the 
breed...is the AKC. 

I'd take one grade Silver Lab that can flush and retrieve a pheasant over a dozen AKC Champion Yellow Labs that can't.


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## tbub1221

Reading where this thread went entertained me , Thankyou all.


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