# Losing battle with ich.. getting desperate.



## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

I wanted to share this once more in this forum to try for more feedback.. At this point, I'm desperate. 

I have been battling ich for more than 2 weeks. I have been using quICK cure ($3) every day since it began. I started with half a dose and worked my way up to a full dose due to having cory cats and clown loaches in my tank.

It seemed to improve at least twice but now it is worse than ever. My biggest clown is very lethargic and seems completely worn out. He hovers in The same spot all day with his head down. The smaller one is not quite as bad but the spots on them have multiplied and have showed up near their heads. They hide a lot now and that's very unusual for them. It has appeared and then disappeared on my mickey mouse platy and dalmation mollies more than once.. it just won't give up!

I am very stressed and I am feeling the effects of worrying constantly and having to do water changes nearly every day.. My temperature had been at a steady 86 since the start of it all and I have not missed any medications. They are all eating normally (i feed lightly twice a day and am careful not to leave any) but my corys have been spending lots of time in a sedentary state at the bottom with seemingly clamped gills. I am VERY concerned for them and my clowns.. I don't know what I am doing wrong.

I am open to any questions and suggestions.. Should I try a different medication (ridick+ maybe)? Anyone successfully use the salt method with scaleless fish? Has anyone else had this issue with it improving and then worsening over and over? 

Thanks in advance..


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## chenowethpm (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm sorry, that really sucks. I was following you other thread. Maybe try the kordon rid ich plus if you haven't already. I'm sure someone with more experience dealing with this will be more help.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

chenowethpm said:


> I'm sorry, that really sucks. I was following you other thread. Maybe try the kordon rid ich plus if you haven't already. I'm sure someone with more experience dealing with this will be more help.


Thanks, Matt. I was sure it was getting better more than once. Now it just seems sad. I feel the constantly meds are starting to take a toll on them. I am wondering is this strain resistant to the meds. I honestly don't understand. That being said, I am hoping someone will read this thread or my period posts and come along with some difference in experience and advice.. I am thankful for everyone who has been contributing.


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## Mike N (Apr 7, 2014)

Halle, sorry about your problem. I have always treated ick by just increasing the temp for a few days as you did.

Clown loaches are going to absorb chemicals very fast due to lack do scales. I'd quit dosing all the meds.

The only advise I can provide is get a uv light. I have not had any ick problems since I started using one and it may solve the problem. 

Good luck, Mike


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Kordon rid ich and quick cure both have the same active ingreidients I believe.You will go through alot more rid ich plus(teaspoon to drops)in comparison but can't say I know of any other difference.
Marine ich is absolutely brutal(and last almost a year in comparison),and one med free trick is to move the fish everyday to a new tank with new water.It is alot of work,but only really needs 2 tanks.Everyday you move the fish and completely clean and fill the other tank.This is a method of removing fish from the disease.
Another option is copper.Pretty brutal and I always recommend a copper test kit to check on levels,but it works.It does seem you are up against a tough strain.I would just increase dose of meds you are you using.If you are almost out of quickcure get some ridich.I always want to see the color lasting days,not hours.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

How about trying a salt bath. Clean gravel really well doing a 50% or more water change. Set up salt bath in different bowl add fish for 10 minutes then return to tank.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

In my experience, heat treatment at 86 and above always works, especially when coupled with 1 1/2 tsp sodium chloride (salt) per gallon. (I use 1 tsp/g for cories, 1 1/4 for loaches) Massive increase in aeration is a must!
When the heat treatment fails, it always seems to be related to a water change; a waterchange that put the temperature below 86 degrees for a short period. This gives a brief period where ich in its killable stage are able to find a host, and start the process again.
If your thermometer is off a degree, you may never even reach 86 degrees.

Note: this is only an explanation for 'stubborn' strains resistant to heat. Resistance to meds is another story I have no experience with, as I only use heat and salt for ich. I can only guess that at some point, the level of meds fell below the lethal level, and enough thermonts (killable stage) were able to find a host and start the process again.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> Kordon rid ich and quick cure both have the same active ingreidients I believe.You will go through alot more rid ich plus(teaspoon to drops)in comparison but can't say I know of any other difference.
> Marine ich is absolutely brutal(and last almost a year in comparison),and one med free trick is to move the fish everyday to a new tank with new water.It is alot of work,but only really needs 2 tanks.Everyday you move the fish and completely clean and fill the other tank.This is a method of removing fish from the disease.
> Another option is copper.Pretty brutal and I always recommend a copper test kit to check on levels,but it works.It does seem you are up against a tough strain.I would just increase dose of meds you are you using.If you are almost out of quickcure get some ridich.I always want to see the color lasting days,not hours.


I just wasn't sure about the potency of the quick cure because it is so cheap.. I like that but wasn't sure if that was affect how well it worked. That sounds like a ton of work and I am not sure I want to try to catch 9 small fish and transfer them every day.. seems like that would stress them that much more.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

susankat said:


> How about trying a salt bath. Clean gravel really well doing a 50% or more water change. Set up salt bath in different bowl add fish for 10 minutes then return to tank.


I did consider this.. however, i have 9 small fish in the tank all together that would need to be chased down and netted which would wake me quite some time and, imo, cause even more stress.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

Botiadancer said:


> In my experience, heat treatment at 86 and above always works, especially when coupled with 1 1/2 tsp sodium chloride (salt) per gallon. (I use 1 tsp/g for cories, 1 1/4 for loaches) Massive increase in aeration is a must!
> When the heat treatment fails, it always seems to be related to a water change; a waterchange that put the temperature below 86 degrees for a short period. This gives a brief period where ich in its killable stage are able to find a host, and start the process again.
> If your thermometer is off a degree, you may never even reach 86 degrees.
> 
> Note: this is only an explanation for 'stubborn' strains resistant to heat. Resistance to meds is another story I have no experience with, as I only use heat and salt for ich. I can only guess that at some point, the level of meds fell below the lethal level, and enough thermonts (killable stage) were able to find a host and start the process again.


As far as the temperature goes.. I am pretty sure the thermometer is close. It's a cheap stick on glass one but there is also a stick one of the tank as well (one like you wouldd stick on a child's head). It came on the tank and it is reading about the same so.. hopefully it is what it says. I try my best to keep the new water that goes in the same temperature. 

*I have, in fact, decided to go with the salt treatment.* I did lots of google surfing to see what luck others had with salt and scaleless fish. It does seem as though I have a pretty persistent strain of it and it is ignoring the high temp and meds. 

I did not dose the meds yesterday at all. I did a water change and I added my carbon filter back in last night to remove any left over meds. This afternoon, I mixed up 5 1/2 tablespoons of salt to 24 oz of aquarium water (I have a 55 gal and the recommended amount is 1 tbs per 5 gal). I raised the temp to 88 and i added 8 oz of the salted water treatment to the tank once it was all dissolved. Tomorrow I will add another 8oz and then Friday, the last 8 oz. I wanted to go into this slowly, careful to not cause too much stress on the already stressed fish.

The ich does seem to have gotten worse since yesterday. The spots are larger (especially on the clowns) and there are a couple of new ones on the head. My largest clown is breathing really quickly and I am getting more concerned for him.. 

*Now, a couple of questions.. with the salt treatment:*
how long once the full dose is added will the salt have an effect? Meaning.. will I need to add more salt later or will that amount be enough for several weeks?

when should I do a water change again? I thought I read that the salt will only go away/be brought back to normal with several huge water changes. So how should I go about vacuuming and whatnot??


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## garstrom (Jan 5, 2014)

Do you have another tank that you can transfer the Loaches and Cory's to? You could at least have them apart from the others and treat accordingly, a lot of medicines are to strong for scaleless fish. Then you might be able to treat your infective tank at a more progressive schedule and a milder one for the loaches and others.
Good Luck


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

garstrom said:


> Do you have another tank that you can transfer the Loaches and Cory's to? You could at least have them apart from the others and treat accordingly, a lot of medicines are to strong for scaleless fish. Then you might be able to treat your infective tank at a more progressive schedule and a milder one for the loaches and others.
> Good Luck


I do have another tank. It is not currently set up but.. I think it could be possible. How differently do I treat the loaches than what i've been doing? I know they don't take well with most medications and heat alone isn't killing it.. 

I'm wondering if garlic guard would help them at all. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. Thankfully, they are still eating well.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

The treatment might be harder on the loaches, but it isn't going to be harder on the parasite. Either works or it doesn't. I would advise 2 things. 1) Bump the temp to 88 *F. If the thermometer is off by 1 * then you'll be too cold at 86 *F, but the extra 2 *F will give you a buffer. The fact that your external stick on thermometer is reading the exact same temperature as your internal one implies one of the two is off by a degree or so unless the external one is in an insulated area or your house is very warm. The fish will survive it, I recommend aeration. I do not personally use salt with fish that are not used to it natively, but have heard others swear by it.
Since you have decided to use salt remember that salt does not break down like medicines, so you will only need to replace salt lost to water changes. Remember that evaporation does not remove salt, so you may want to top off before making that adjustment or you will get a slight rise in salinity over time.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

jccaclimber2 said:


> The treatment might be harder on the loaches, but it isn't going to be harder on the parasite. Either works or it doesn't. I would advise 2 things. 1) Bump the temp to 88 *F. If the thermometer is off by 1 * then you'll be too cold at 86 *F, but the extra 2 *F will give you a buffer. The fact that your external stick on thermometer is reading the exact same temperature as your internal one implies one of the two is off by a degree or so unless the external one is in an insulated area or your house is very warm. The fish will survive it, I recommend aeration. I do not personally use salt with fish that are not used to it natively, but have heard others swear by it.
> Since you have decided to use salt remember that salt does not break down like medicines, so you will only need to replace salt lost to water changes. Remember that evaporation does not remove salt, so you may want to top off before making that adjustment or you will get a slight rise in salinity over time.


Only thing is, my external external knob doesn't have any exact numbers. Simply a high or low. It is almost completely on low at 88 degrees. And it feels pretty warm. So i'm guessing the two thermometers are reading close. I am considering buying a new heater within the next few days because with it all the way on low, it stays at about 85. My house is about 70. 

I have been reading a lot of good things about it, despite the person having scaleless fish so, I thought I could at least give it a stab. Do you mean top off by removing most water after i'm done to remove the presence of salt ? I have a 50gal sponge filter on a pump that creates a lot of surface agitation and a HOB for 50 gal with the water level lowered some to make a splash.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

Lol, now I understand what you meant about topping off *#3


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

Going to 88 degrees should insure you are at a high enough temperature to kill the ich. Add salt slowly as you are doing. You should see all the ich disappear in 3 or 4 days. Keep it up for another 10 after you see the last white spot. Then start lowering the temperature and taking the salt out though 50% water changes.

As you do water changes through treatment, make sure the water you are adding is OVER 86 degrees - matching 88 would be better. As mentioned earlier, only add salt to water removed via waterchange. So if you take out 20 gallons of water, and you've been keeping 1 teaspoon per gallon salt, add 20 teaspoons to your new water. Evaporation is negligible if you keep the tank covered. 1.005 teaspoons salt per gallon won't make a difference.

Now about that heater.... can it be calibrated to match your thermometers? Don't worry about it if it maintains a constant temperature. You can play with it after your ich is gone.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

^If your ich survives 88*F it is probably worth considering if it is ich. There are bacterial infections that look similar. I would also cut back your feeding for now.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

Botiadancer said:


> Now about that heater.... can it be calibrated to match your thermometers? Don't worry about it if it maintains a constant temperature. You can play with it after your ich is gone.


Alright, thank you. I truly hope this works.. The tank is covered so there shouldn't be too much evap. Unfortunatelyn the heater cannot be calibrated with the thermometer. I will wait until after the ich issue is done and gone before I buy another that will actually go below 85. I am sure that as a regular temp is a bit too high. I turned it up a hair last night and this morning the glass thermometer is saying 88 and the stick on is showing 86. 

Right now, they all look about the same. The biggest clown is still in the same spot just kind of looking sad and tired. Also his tail looks tethered.. I don't know if it is from the constant meds or what. The clowns and mickey mouse platy are the only ones with the spots. I cannot see any spots on the dalmations, though that's difficult to say because of their color/patterns. Still no spots on the cory cats, thankfully..


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

jccaclimber2 said:


> ^If your ich survives 88*F it is probably worth considering if it is ich. There are bacterial infections that look similar. I would also cut back your feeding for now.


I looked into this and couldn't find anything else that matched the problem. My first secondary concern was columnaris but I am sure that isn't it. I can almost bet the $20 in my wallet it is, ic fact, ich. The feedings are pretty small. I give a few bloodworms in the morning which all the fish eat except the corys (they're gone before they reach the bottom) and one shimp pellet for the corys. Then in the evening, one more pellet for the corys and 2 or 3 flakes. I watch during feeding to make sure none is left in the tank. Do you think this is too much while medicating?


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

It isn't so much that I specifically think you are feeding too much, more that the fish should survive a couple days without food, or weeks at half feedings and that greatly increases the odds of good water quality. While I don't know what it is, every couple years I see a few fish with white spots that are very similar, but not the same as ich in friend's tanks. I assume it is bacterial. It usually shows up 3-4 weeks after a feeding increase (often but not always with a stocking increase) and tends to pass quickly without treatment assuming good husbandry. I've never been able do measure ammonia or nitrite in these tanks with my API kit, but things perk up faster with less food for some reason.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

Ah, okay. That is quite interesting to me.. I will be sure to keep the feeding to a minimum. My ammonia level is a bit high. I have not been able to sort that out, either.. even with regular water changes. I was wondering if the prime was giving me a higher reading that what it actually is. I'm not sure..

I keep reading ich gets worse before it gets better. I am hoping the "better" part happens soon because it is certainly worse.. *td


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

OCTOhalie said:


> Ah, okay. That is quite interesting to me.. I will be sure to keep the feeding to a minimum. My ammonia level is a bit high.


There's the root cause.



OCTOhalie said:


> I have not been able to sort that out, either.. even with regular water changes.


 Are you cleaning your media too often? 


OCTOhalie said:


> I was wondering if the prime was giving me a higher reading that what it actually is. I'm not sure..


No. Prime will bind the ammonia already present (particularly true if you have chloramine rather than chlorine in your water) and let it still read, but it won't increase it.



OCTOhalie said:


> I keep reading ich gets worse before it gets better. I am hoping the "better" part happens soon because it is certainly worse.. *td


Not sure I'd say that. Either way fixing the ammonia issue (less food in the short term) should be a priority. You don't by chance have a really low (below 6.0) pH do you?


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

I know the bloodworms and few flakes I was feeding were getting ate up, but I should try to keep an eye on the pellet to make sure it is getting eaten completely. It is small but lasts a while.. It is so hard to look for it once I drop it in because it matches my gravel perfectly in shape and size. The ammonia is at .5

No, I am not cleaning my media too often I don't think. My sponge filter I rinse out once every two weeks or so with tank water. I did recently have to put a new filter in my HOB (one that's cut to fit made with carbon into the dense pad itself) so.. I am sure I lost a bit there, but I do have seachem matrix in the HOB that's been there for about 2+ weeks. I usually would only rinse the pad media from the HOB every 3 weeks or so with tank water.

I have just come across many forums that say it usually tends to looks worse right before they begin to fall off, in which time they die.. I am just wondering how much longer before they fall off. Some look pretty big and I just don't want their gills to be ruined as many spots have made their bodies. *BUT* I do not see the spots on the mickey mouse anymore.. Still certainly on the clowns and no behavior changes for the better. I finished dosing the salted water this morning and I hope it was enough. The cories seem to be coping well. The clowns all just hide..

My ph has been pretty steady at 7.2ish. Our normal tap water is about that same reading. My kh, however is a low 40ppm. Not sure how that is effecting the tank.. gh is at 120ish ppm(soft, the way the clowns like) no2 is 0. no3 is 10ish. I have the dip sticks if that tells you anything. The ammonia test is the liquid api test.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Just because food is being eaten doesn't mean it is getting efficiently digested. Even if it is, digested food still becomes waste. Everything that goes in has to become a permanent part of the fish (a very small portion) or comes out.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Stop feeding until the ammonia goes away. Fish don't need food everyday. I have left mine for nearly two weeks without food and no deaths. The ammonia will kill them faster than the lack of food. It is not just a matter of the fish eating all of their food. Like was said, that food has to go somewhere eventually. The more you feed and they eat, the more waste they create.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

I have taken your advice and will not feed for a couple of days and I will closely monitor the ammonia. 

*Here is my latest update:*
I lost a clown today*sh I found him behind the driftwood colorless. He had the least spots of them all and I could not see them at all on his dead body. I did not see any other signs of illness(red gills, swollen eyes, etc.) and he was still kind of slimey so I am totally lost. Still no spots on the cory cats and the mollys and platys seem to be fine..

However, the 2 remaining clowns still have ich and it has *not* gotten better.. This is the 3rd day of full salt water treatment and 88 degree water. I will do a water change tonight and I guess just replace the salt for what was taken. 

The small clown now has super dark eyes. They just look.. black. They do not appear to be swollen or bothering him but they were not like this before and the other two clowns did not have this issue. He is the most active and I am not sure what this is. 

The biggest clown still has increased breathing and just sits all day. His tail is still looking really tethered and messed up at the ends. I don't know what's causing that, either. 

I am more confused now than ever on what to do. I just want to tear the tank down and give the fish to someone who can better help this situation. It is beyond stressful. *Mad*


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

OCTOhalie said:


> I have taken your advice and will not feed for a couple of days and I will closely monitor the ammonia.
> 
> *Here is my latest update:*
> I lost a clown today*sh I found him behind the driftwood colorless. He had the least spots of them all and I could not see them at all on his dead body. I did not see any other signs of illness(red gills, swollen eyes, etc.) and he was still kind of slimey so I am totally lost. Still no spots on the cory cats and the mollys and platys seem to be fine..
> ...


The fin rot is another sign of water quality issues (ammonia, etc). The lack of food going in should help the ammonia issue resolve its self quickly. The fish should heal (couple weeks) on their own once the water quality issue is resolved. I'm beginning to suspect this is bacterial rather than ich based on the results so far.


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## OCTOhalie (Mar 25, 2014)

Is the ammonia the only issue with the water, as far as you can tell? Other than the KH being low, I thought the rest was alright.. I am about to do a large water change as we speak. I want to get this ich out of the tank asap. I have not come across any other explanation for what it could be. I ruled out velvet and I don't THINK it's columnaris. I have seen no signs of the fluffy type stuff, nor things on the head and mouth like is mentioned for that. 

Any idea about the cloudy/dark eye deal?

I am highly upset with myself for not being patient enough to wait for a QT to get these clowns. I suppose I learned the hard way.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

OCTOhalie said:


> Is the ammonia the only issue with the water, as far as you can tell? Other than the KH being low, I thought the rest was alright.. I am about to do a large water change as we speak. I want to get this ich out of the tank asap. I have not come across any other explanation for what it could be. I ruled out velvet and I don't THINK it's columnaris. I have seen no signs of the fluffy type stuff, nor things on the head and mouth like is mentioned for that.
> 
> Any idea about the cloudy/dark eye deal?
> 
> I am highly upset with myself for not being patient enough to wait for a QT to get these clowns. I suppose I learned the hard way.


Don't worry about KH, GH, or pH (unless pH is under 6 or over 9, then test your test kit before being concerned).

Ammonia is a large concern not only due to its immediate problems (and the nitrite spike that often follows by a week), but given the water quality and lack of biological filtration implied by its presence. While many fish will survive a short term ammonia spike (like being mailed somewhere), a long term ammonia issue will wear fish down (sort of like too much cold dry air in your sinuses).

I think you will find that if you can resolve the ammonia issue everything else will clear up as well.


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