# Would plants be helpful for this setup?



## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

I've always shied away from planted tanks when I was younger due to being concerned about the extra care I thought they needed and potential for screwing up water parameters when they died... Plus I tended to have the anti-green thumb and was certain it would transfer over to aquatic plants too  

Lately though I keep hearing about how much healthier and easier to care for planted tanks tend to be and have been reconsidering. I live in a condo with limited water pressure, so it tends to take a substantial amount of time to fill up jugs of water for water changes. If adding plants would help keep my nitrates down and thereby requiring smaller water changes, I'm eager to give it a shot. I'm really not sure what plants would be good to use tho, given my setup and experience (or rather lack thereof), and would love some suggestions on plant species as well as if they're even a good idea for this setup.

Tank size & setting: 30 gallon, fairly full of plastic or silk plants and decorations. I'm more than happy to replace the plastic plants with live plants if they work out.

Lighting: I don't have a special light at the moment, and the tank is in a room with east facing windows. We keep the blinds somewhat lowered, but not fully except when the sun sets since our cats love looking out and will destroy the blinds attempting to see out. Generally, its not a very dark tank, but it doesn't get direct sunlight or any algae growth either. I'd prefer minimal fuss when it comes to lighting, but I'm not opposed to getting a different bulb.

Fish compatibility: I have two oto's and a calico bristlenose pleco in my tank. I've heard over zealous plecos can kill plants... The otos I'm not as worried about but are a concern as well. Other residents include 3 ADFs, 6 guppies, a betta, 7 black neon tetras, 6 harlequin rasboras, and 2 neon tetras (remnants of a full school that kept vanishing on me that I gave up on restocking, possibly frog victims). If there's a particular plant species that can serve as a supplemental food source for the otos/pleco without dying, that's a big bonus (fresh veggies tend to go bad quickly on me unless I can freeze them) but not mandatory.

Substrate: Currently standard gravel with under-gravel filter. I REALLY don't want to have to mess with a whole lot of special care in this area if I can help it. I like to be as hands off as possible while still keeping the tank healthy.

Food available: There's a sizable chunk of driftwood in the tank for the pleco, and the fish are fed a frozen variety plus flake food. 

What do you guys think, would plants help or would they just die on me and complicate things even more? If you think they'd help, what species would work well in this scenario? Thanks and sorry for the wall of text


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

luananeko said:


> 1. Lately though I keep hearing about how much healthier and easier to care for planted tanks tend to be and have been reconsidering.
> 
> 2. I'm really not sure what plants would be good to use tho, given my setup and experience (or rather lack thereof), and would love some suggestions on plant species as well as if they're even a good idea for this setup.
> 
> ...


1. Plants are a great addition to a tank, in my opinion. They need two things - light, and nutrients. Most of the nutrients they can absorb through their roots from dirty substrate and root fertilizer tabs, but some they can absorb through their leaves from the water. They need things like nitrogen, carbon, and trace elements like iron and potassium. The nitrogen can come from nitrates in your tank, both water-borne and sitting dormant in the mulm in your substrate. The carbon can come from the water and gas exchange at the surface where CO2 is absorbed by the water from the air. If you're worried about your plants not getting enough CO2, get a bubbler to help speed up the gas exchange at the surface. In return they help improve your water quality, lower stress on your fish, and clean your substrate (to a certain extent).

2. I would advise the typical low-light low-maintenance plants java moss, java fern, and anubias nana, but I also had success with wisteria and giant hygro plants in a standard 10 gallon with an UGF and a standard lightbulb.

3. You might want to consider a new bulb with a Kelvin rating around 6700K or lower (on the pink-red side of the spectrum). But with most of the plants mentioned above they will do alright with just a standard light.

4. I'm not sure about this one, sorry.

5. To make your standard gravel substrate more plant-friendly, don't clean it at all, and add some root fertilizer tabs periodically. I had some success with Jungle brand root tabs, CO2 fizz tabs, and API LeafZone liquid plant food.

Hope this helps!


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Awesome, thanks for the tips!

I'm not too worried about the CO2 aspect since I have a power head at the top of the under-gravel filter up-tube that is aimed so it breaks the surface, plus one of the decorations has a built in bubbler. Hopefully that should be more than adequate for the beginner-level plants 

A few more questions... About how often do you add root tabs and plant food? Are they mandatory even for the beginner plants? Also, do plants take a ramp up period (as in I shouldn't get the plants all at the same time but gradually add them), or do they do better getting added at the same time to limit the chance of one plant getting over-grazed by the otos and pleco?


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

I've heard mixed opinions about using undergravel filters with live plants. I've never had a planted tank with an undergravel, so I can't say for sure.

Many plants will grow great in just gravel though. I started my planted tanking with standard gravel in a 10 gallon and some Walmart bought Aponogeton bulbs. Then bought some Amazom Swords, Argentine Swords, Java Ferns, and eventually moved to a 30 gallon where I made my substrate a little more complex, and added some Westeria and Anacharis (which are now the two fastest growing plants in the tank). So for some fast growing nitrate absorbing plants, I would definitely recommend Westeria or Anacharis, just because of how fast it grows, and how easy it is to grow. Neither require high light and are pretty forgiving in the tank.

As far as light goes, I would recommend getting at least 1 watt per gallon to grow the low light plants I've mentioned above. If you get up in the 2-3 watts per gallon range, the plants may grow a little faster, but you'll also have to watch out for algae blooms (I'm currently battling black beard algae in my 30 gallon tank that I've had lit with 80 watts...)

But overall, my planted tanks have been FAR easier to take care of than a non planted tank. Maintenance is a once a week thing with my tank. Every weekend I trim the plants that grow ridiculously fast (Westeria and Anacharis mainly) and top the water off that evaporates, and every other week I vacuum the gravel in the front half of the tank with no plants, and at the same time do about a 5 gallon water change. The Nerite snails in my tank keep the tank glass clean for the most part and they don't bother the plants, and the shrimp keep any excess food from sitting on the bottom for too long. I have two Bristlenose Plecos in my tank, and they have yet to bother any of the plants, and they're pretty active little guys.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

+1

(Look up "beaslbob builds" here)

my .02


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Sounds like a new plant-friendly bulb is in order... Sort of expected it, but part of me is lazy and was hoping to avoid it 



automatic-hydromatic said:


> I've heard mixed opinions about using undergravel filters with live plants. I've never had a planted tank with an undergravel, so I can't say for sure.


That's what I've been hearing lately... It's a pain to try and yank out the UGF so I'd like to avoid it if possible... But if the plants keep having issues I guess I'll have to. I'm sure the betta would appreciate the lower currents from not having the power head in there anymore.



automatic-hydromatic said:


> Every weekend I trim the plants that grow ridiculously fast (Westeria and Anacharis mainly) and top the water off that evaporates, and every other week I vacuum the gravel in the front half of the tank with no plants, and at the same time do about a 5 gallon water change.


Ahhh that's exactly what I want to hear. I typically have to do at least a 10 gallon change every week or so on my 30 gallon or the nitrates start getting crazy. 5 gallon every other week changes would be a welcome change.



automatic-hydromatic said:


> I have two Bristlenose Plecos in my tank, and they have yet to bother any of the plants, and they're pretty active little guys.


Really? My bristlenose hides almost the entire time... I'll see her come out maybe once a week. When I have to yank out decorations for a tank cleaning she likes to wedge herself into a spot in the sunken ship (my husband as a thing for that decoration otherwise I'd have gotten rid of it) and not budge even when its taken outside the water... Arg. It's sad she hides so much since plecos are such cool fish. Think the plants will get her to come out more?


Beaslbob, I'll check out your builds, low maintenance is exactly what I'm looking for!


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## mrouse (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks for this conversation. I love my plants, and I feel they are doing pretty good. I need to get stats listed, just haven't, and I really don't know what my plants are. But I am dealing with algae in my plants, a brown rust color. I can gently rub the plants and it comes off dusty. Does this fit in here, maybe to ask for advice. The algae is getting on rocks in tank now. I know I need pics! Thanks!


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I have to agree with everyone here.I love my planted tanks.Every tank,even the small betta containers have plants of some sort.Ive got one low tech and one high tech.On the low teck,Ive got two standard flourescent strip lights,one is a T12,20 watt and ones a T8 15 watt,both over 25 gallons.Substrate is a mix of gravel,sand and eco complete.Not layered,mixed.The plants growing in there are Java fern,Ozelot sword,Rotal Rotundifolia,Microsword,Crytp Wendtii,Wisteria and some very small fine leaved stem,which is supposed to be pretty high light.I get great growth,and dont clean the gravel at all.No filter until it arrives,lol.Other tank has a T5 HO light oer a 29 gallon,soo to be pressurized CO2.I have voodoo river substrate which is eco complete without the added goodies.Plants are basically the same,minus the ozelot sword and crypts,and added some willow and sunset hygro,the latter which is getting the best pinkish orange Ive ever seen.Filtered with a canister filter and dosed ferts.

Basically if you get some medium light and up the light,then you can keep more plants and they dont all need CO2 and ferts.Root tabs are great for rooted plants but stems will have no use of it.

One strange thing,the rotala seems to grow larger leaves in the 25 than the 29,lol


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

mrouse said:


> Thanks for this conversation. I love my plants, and I feel they are doing pretty good. I need to get stats listed, just haven't, and I really don't know what my plants are. But I am dealing with algae in my plants, a brown rust color. I can gently rub the plants and it comes off dusty. Does this fit in here, maybe to ask for advice. The algae is getting on rocks in tank now. I know I need pics! Thanks!


I don't know what all you have in your tank or how big it is, but if you toss a couple otos in there it may help. From what I've found while researching whether plants would work in my tank, Otos actually are recommended to keep in planted tanks since they love the brown algae that tends to grow on plants  They're amazingly industrious and love to stuff themselves on it!


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

In general, I don't think you'd want an undergravel filter in a planted tank. Most plants don't like moving water around their root systems, but when I started growing plants that was exactly what I had, and the only difference I noticed was a slower growth rate compared to now.

Addition of root tabs should be followed as per the package instructions. I used Jungle brand, which said to add them once monthly. I also dosed LeafZone as per instructions - a capful per week with my PWC.


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## mrouse (Feb 21, 2011)

Since I joined in here, decided to stay, hope that's I'm. Putting pics of plants in my gallery, with the algae. My parrots love the plants, they sit in them all the time. Any advice, appreciate the otos tip.


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

mrouse, you may have more answers if you start your own thread about your specific situation. The title of this thread is for a bit different of a topic than the advice your hoping to find 

So after researching the beaselbob builds, I love the idea of little to no water changes  I'm torn between wanting to keep the UGF for high surface agitation (and because it appeals to my lazy side, oops...), and wanting to yank it out and do the beaselbob substrate... But would it be bad to swap in the new substrate on an established tank? I plan on keeping my canister filter (at least for a while) so I don't completely wipe out all my bacteria at once, plus I'll use some of the existing gravel in the beaselbob substrate... Think that would help make sure I don't have any fish loss if I went that route?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

My other issue with UGF's is that they require a complete tear down and overhaul of the tank every 6-12 months or they don't operate correctly. You could leave the UGF in for longer and just have it working minimally compared to if it were clean, but in general if you're going to change the substrate as in a bob setup, and do live plants, I would get rid of the UGF.

As for used stuff - the more the better! Used substrate has plenty of nitrifying bacteria that will help jump-start your tank's nitrogen cycle. Used substrate and used filter media are the two best sources, in my opinion.

And for the substrate - you can use as much standard gravel as you want, just keep in mind that the more plant-friendly stuff like sand and peat moss you use, the better your plants are going to do. If you ask me, I would say spend what you need to build a tank that will last for ages, because once the tank is established you'll be spending pennies on the dollar compared to the initial expenditure, and you won't be changing very much either (unless you get bored and tinker like I do).


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Yeah... The more I'm reading the more I'm resigning myself to the fact that I'm going to need to take the time and do it right if I want good results rather than sorta doing a timid exploration attempt  Out the UGF goes then, in comes the peat moss, sand, underneath my existing gravel. Also swapping my existing light for a full spectrum 6700K bulb of some sort, as suggested.

Now I get the fun job of trying to figure out what plants to go with  I like the look of the following plants... Are there any that wouldn't work together or that have certain issues I should be aware of? Bear in mind I usually keep my tank around 80F...
Anacharis
Green Myrio
Water Sprite
Anubias Barteri
Anubias Congensis 
Moneywort
Red Tiger Lotus


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

The only plant on that list I know very well is the tiger lotus - they are bulb plants that propagate through their root systems. They're also very slow growers compared to others (like wisteria or anachris), and require a LOT of iron to thrive. They can grow pads either submersed or emersed, with emersion being more healthy for the plant, but potentially depriving other tank-dwellers first dibs on light. If handled VERY well, it will flower on the surface as well.

Hope this helps!


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Yep, I saw that about the iron while I was researching them... They're definitely the most high maintenance one on the list (from what I can tell), but they have such gorgeous colors in their leaves when treated properly that I'm sorely tempted to try them. Most of the pictures I saw showed them completely under water though, I didn't realize they preferred to be allowed to grow to the surface... I may have to rethink them then, as I prefer to keep my water level pretty close to the top of the tank to minimize noise from the filter dumping back in.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

You can keep the lotus leaves submerged by cutting off any that try and shoot for the surface. They come out from the bulb rolled up and start unfurling as they near where they're going to stay. If the pad stays furled like it's going for the surface, just cut it short and the plant will learn to grow only submerged.


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Okay... 3 different shopping spots, 8 hours of work, and a couple hundred dollas later I finally have a planted tank! Peat moss was surprisingly annoying to find, and after seeing some gorgeous Hygros in a display tank at the first fish store I really wanted to get one  I had to replace my tank hood with a glass one since it didn't have enough of a glass section to allow in enough light, and I had to get a new lighting hood since my other one wouldn't support any fancy plant lights. The new set-up may not match, and may be a little more wonky to use (the glass hood was one inch short in width compared to my old one, and bumps into the light when I flip it open unless I shift the light back), but it'll be better for the plants, and that's what matters. 

The new light came with a 6000K 24 watt HO T5 bulb, as well as a 24 watt HO T5 "Roseta" bulb. They're not the 6700K bulbs recommended, but the guy that was helping me seemed pretty experienced with plants and said they should be fine for the plants I got. After all my online research, I ended up taking home a bit different plants than I planned due to one of the following: a) not being available at the fish stores I checked, b) the ones that were didn't look as nice as I thought they would, or c) I saw new ones that looked way cooler than I thought 

Final assortment:
Green Cambomba
Anubias Nana Petite
Glossostigma (fish store guy said it tended to stay more compact and less obstructive than the dwarf baby tears would)
Narrow Leaf Ludwiga
Anubias Hastifola
Red Tiger Lotus (I couldn't resist, and the fish store guy told me that they'd be ok completely submerged as long as I kept pruning them to teach them the lesson that the surface is a no-no  )
Hygrophilia










I think I sorta mutilated half of the Glossostigma when I was pulling it out of the rock wool... I had one good chunk, and then a lot of spare stems with their own single roots. I tried to get rid of as many of the stems that seemed to have gotten completely ripped off from their roots and attempted to plant the salvageable stems together in a separate area from the main clump in hopes of giving it space and light to fill in more. Hopefully it will bounce back, it doesn't look any worse for wear yet after 12 hours of being in the tank...

I'm also tempted to go back and get more Anubias of some variety to put at the other end of the driftwood since I know it's a slow grower and would like to see the log get overgrown  Though I don't have anything to shade the log yet while the hygro and ludwiga are still growing in, so maybe I'll wait on that... 

I might need to move the tiger lotus a little further out from the driftwood so it gets a bit more direct light... One leaf is perfectly in the light, the others are half shaded... Here's a close-up, it sorta blends in with the driftwood in these pics:









Gaah, I'm like a worried new mother with these plants, I keep looking over expecting to see them suddenly dead from me doing something wrong


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Oh, and I managed to keep pretty much all the fish mum that was there before, all the old gravel, and nearly all the old water, so I'm hoping I should virtually no cycling necessary... We'll see. BOY was that last half inch of water black with fish mum when I was trying to scoop out all the gravel into a bucket... Couldn't even see all the remaining bits of gravel through it! Plants should love it tho, even though it was a royal pain to get the peat moss to sit down and not float so I could move on to adding sand


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## bsmith (Jul 11, 2011)

IMO, plants are always a benefit to a tank as long as the ones you are gong to choose are selected with the tanks parameters/equipment and animals in mind.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Tank looks good! That's an awesome pirate ship.

Question: When you bought the plants, how many did you buy that were completely underwater?


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Tank looks good! That's an awesome pirate ship.
> 
> Question: When you bought the plants, how many did you buy that were completely underwater?


Yeah, the pirate ship was a bloody pain in the butt to get the pleco out of hiding from while doing the substrate overhaul, but it definitely does have a cool effect on the tank... My husband has a thing for sunken ships too, so it's his favorite part of the whole thing 

All of the plants were completely submerged at the fish stores I got them from. In fact I think the only plants at the stores that were above the water level at all was the duckweed, which I wasn't interested in getting.

Day 4 update: I'm seeing new growth on the cambomba, hygro, and ludwiga, so it looks like those are happy at least  The darn anubias nana keeps floating off it's perch though, so I have to pick up some thread to tie it down with today since the rocks I was using to weight it with won't stay put. It looks like I planted the glosso wrong from what I've been reading, so I'll take another stab at getting that bugger under control since I keep seeing stems fly off to free float each day.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Looks great!

A word of caution on the terra cotta pot.The hole in the back of it needs to be covered or made bigger.Some fish are nosy(I believe I saw a betta in there)and will try to go through the hole and end up hurting themselves,especially the betta.Nosy little guys.You can use craft canvas and fishing line,and it takes all of five minutes to do.

Cut two small squares of the canvas,where one will fit inside the pot.fish the line through it,then throught the hole in the pot,and use the other piece of canvas to tie the line off,and there ya go,its fixed and no sore noses!


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## luananeko (Aug 27, 2010)

Yep, I do have a male betta in my tank. He's banged up his face once before (you helped me get him over the swelled eye and cheek and he even kept the eye  ), but I thought it was from the driftwood log in the tank since that was his favorite sleeping/resting spot. He's never shown any interest in the pot, but better safe than sorry. 

It took me a couple read throughs to understand what you meant about using the canvas to block the hole, but I think I get it now. One way or another I'll block it off


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