# Corals



## perm_dogg

I added a Kenya Tree Coral a while back. It bloomed up and grew big and was waving all over the place. Then, two days ago, I had moved a few rocks around and that obviously startled it into submission. It has not came back to life since. Did I maybe block off some of the flow it was enjoying or could it be something else I wonder? I Vodka and SeaKlear dose every week so it's not Nitrates/Phosphates. Anyone know these Corals well?


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## brads

perm_dogg said:


> I added a Kenya Tree Coral a while back. It bloomed up and grew big and was waving all over the place. Then, two days ago, I had moved a few rocks around and that obviously startled it into submission. It has not came back to life since. Did I maybe block off some of the flow it was enjoying or could it be something else I wonder? I Vodka and SeaKlear dose every week so it's not Nitrates/Phosphates. Anyone know these Corals well?


As I recall, tree coral is fairly hardy and easy to care for. (for coral) But, I'd encourage you to check and re-check you parameters. You say it can't be Nitrates/Phosphates. Why? Have you tested the water to be sure? You don't know until you know. You're using vodka and seaklear, which is fine but there's no guarantee that it's working. And it could be something else too. Gotta test the water. 

Also, water temp should be between 72-78? Are you giving your coral supplements? (a coral's got to eat!) Do you have a skimmer? Are you doing water changes? Ummm, light? It's not usually a problem with tree coral but... you know.

Anyhoo, live coral's one of the most beautiful things (IMHO) in a salt tank but it's not the easiest thing to raise. Ya kinda got to baby it. So I'd check those things out and let us know. Good luck!


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## Reefing Madness

Its a softy coral bro, ya tick em off it could take em a few days to a week or so to open back up. If you moved a few rocks around, you probably stirred the bottom tank up, and thus detritus, and possibly upped the nitrates a bit. Shouldn't do anything to it but make em mad. Those things are bullet proof, he'll come back.
Then again, is it closed up tight, and shiny? He may have picked this time to shed also.


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## perm_dogg

brads said:


> As I recall, tree coral is fairly hardy and easy to care for. (for coral) But, I'd encourage you to check and re-check you parameters. You say it can't be Nitrates/Phosphates. Why? Have you tested the water to be sure? You don't know until you know. You're using vodka and seaklear, which is fine but there's no guarantee that it's working. And it could be something else too. Gotta test the water.
> 
> Also, water temp should be between 72-78? Are you giving your coral supplements? (a coral's got to eat!) Do you have a skimmer? Are you doing water changes? Ummm, light? It's not usually a problem with tree coral but... you know.
> 
> Nitrates=10
> Phosphates=0.5
> Salinity=1.026
> PH=8.4
> Temp=76'
> Alkalinity=7
> Calcium=460
> Magnesium=1300
> 
> Yes. I have a HOB Aqua Maxx Skimmer, I have two 120 Watt LED Dimmable Lights over my 55 gallon tank, 2 Wave Maker Power Heads rated for 800 GPH. I run nothing but RO/DI water in my tank. So.....Yeah. I think I just pissed him off. I do not, however, feed my Corals directly. I may want to try dosing some Plankton, but I will give him some time to get over it. Just don't want to lose em. They are like night and day between happy and mad. Ha ha. Thanks.


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## treliantf

perm_dogg said:


> brads said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I recall, tree coral is fairly hardy and easy to care for. (for coral) But, I'd encourage you to check and re-check you parameters. You say it can't be Nitrates/Phosphates. Why? Have you tested the water to be sure? You don't know until you know. You're using vodka and seaklear, which is fine but there's no guarantee that it's working. And it could be something else too. Gotta test the water.
> 
> Also, water temp should be between 72-78? Are you giving your coral supplements? (a coral's got to eat!) Do you have a skimmer? Are you doing water changes? Ummm, light? It's not usually a problem with tree coral but... you know.
> 
> Nitrates=10
> Phosphates=0.5
> Salinity=1.026
> PH=8.4
> Temp=76'
> Alkalinity=7
> Calcium=460
> Magnesium=1300
> 
> Yes. I have a HOB Aqua Maxx Skimmer, I have two 120 Watt LED Dimmable Lights over my 55 gallon tank, 2 Wave Maker Power Heads rated for 800 GPH. I run nothing but RO/DI water in my tank. So.....Yeah. I think I just pissed him off. I do not, however, feed my Corals directly. I may want to try dosing some Plankton, but I will give him some time to get over it. Just don't want to lose em. They are like night and day between happy and mad. Ha ha. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't your phosphorous relatively high?
Click to expand...


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## perm_dogg

Yes. Sorry. that was .05 (According to my little color chart.)


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## brads

Nitrates=10
Phosphates=0.5
Salinity=1.026
PH=8.4
Temp=76'
Alkalinity=7
Calcium=460
Magnesium=1300

Yes. I have a HOB Aqua Maxx Skimmer, I have two 120 Watt LED Dimmable Lights over my 55 gallon tank, 2 Wave Maker Power Heads rated for 800 GPH. I run nothing but RO/DI water in my tank. So.....Yeah. I think I just pissed him off. I do not, however, feed my Corals directly. I may want to try dosing some Plankton, but I will give him some time to get over it. Just don't want to lose em. They are like night and day between happy and mad. Ha ha. Thanks.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, I'm sure you're right. Parameters look reasonable so they probably just have an attitude. Hang in there and keep us posted.


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## perm_dogg

I moved him up a little higher on the rocks. Maybe when I added the newest rock it threw off his flow. It's been about 12 hours and he looks better, but not all the way up yet. (Of course moving him probably didn't help.) I'll update tomorrow for sure. Thanks.


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## treliantf

Do you have a deep sand bed bottom? How far is the coral tips to the surface of the sand/substrate top?


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## perm_dogg

I have a shallow sand bed and I put him up in the live rocks. (Not down in the sand) do you suggest burying his base in the sand?


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## treliantf

I am not sure on soft corals but bury in sand worked well for my anemones. 
My point is to check if anything released from sand/substrate while moving irritates him. Not nitrate, because all forms of nitrates in seawater are soluble, rather other microscopic organisms live in DSB got released that is responsible. Since you don't have DSB then I conclude that it is likely the water flow.


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## perm_dogg

So you can see how far up he is and I don't know if it might be too much flow for it or not? Although in much better shape, still not "happy" Maybe leave it be for a few days and see what happens. There's no reason for it to die as far as water quality goes. That much I know.


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## perm_dogg

Sorry about the snowy pics. I've been brushing off rocks one at a time from my last bound up phosphate epidemic. The green star polyp you see in this pic is sometimes very expressive, other days it doesn't even open. Both this and the Kenya Tree are in high flow areas.


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## perm_dogg

Last pic of the day. Full tank this afternoon. I have one little side issue. I have lost 2 cleaner wrasses in back to back weeks with no signs of stress, fighting or even a dead body. Is my Anemone eating these? Where would it go even if it died there should be at least a trace?!!


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## perm_dogg

perm_dogg said:


> Sorry about the snowy pics. I've been brushing off rocks one at a time from my last bound up phosphate epidemic. The green star polyp you see in this pic is sometimes very expressive, other days it doesn't even open. Both this and the Kenya Tree are in high flow areas.


whoops


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## Reefing Madness

Crap, he looks fine bro, quit moving him around. Ya tick them off, and you can never tell when they will open it again.


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## perm_dogg

Ha ha. Well I only moved him that one time. He looked 5 times the size and colorful when he was happy. and why do we call it a he? ha ha. Funny how we just assume sometimes right?!


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## Reefing Madness

Yea, true. I call my fish girls, but not my corals.


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## treliantf

perm_dogg said:


> So you can see how far up he is and I don't know if it might be too much flow for it or not? Although in much better shape, still not "happy" Maybe leave it be for a few days and see what happens. There's no reason for it to die as far as water quality goes. That much I know.


"He" is twisting because of too strong the direct flow or am I imagining?


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## perm_dogg

could very well be the case. I'm gonna give him a few days and see what happens.


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## perm_dogg

After some extensive research (Googling) I have found the culprit to my tree Corals issues. I dumped ice cold RO/DI water on his side of the tank. I always see the substrate move slightly no matter how slowly I pour in the 5 gallon bucket, but I guess they are not a fan of fresh water. So...There you have it. Still not gonna mess with him for a while, but I think its all gonna be okay. Anyone have an opinion on my Cleaner Wrasse? Think the Eel got him?


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## treliantf

If you drip into the sump slowly that would have been OK. No idea cleaner wrasse and eel, never have both at same time.


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## Reefing Madness

I don't think your eeel got him, possibly just a random death. I've never been able to keep those things.
As far as the RO water thing, I use a python and I pump my RO water right from the garage into the tank, have 2 corals right in the blast area, one is a Colt coral, doesn't seem to bother either one.


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## perm_dogg

treliantf said:


> If you drip into the sump slowly that would have been OK. No idea cleaner wrasse and eel, never have both at same time.


I do not have a sump...Yet. It's a long story. Ha ha.


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## perm_dogg

Reefing Madness said:


> I don't think your eeel got him, possibly just a random death. I've never been able to keep those things.
> As far as the RO water thing, I use a python and I pump my RO water right from the garage into the tank, have 2 corals right in the blast area, one is a Colt coral, doesn't seem to bother either one.


Madness, (as you may know) if I were to run a python or tube of water from my garage to my house.....I would never get water into the tank. It would freeze. Ha ha. But if you don't think that bothered it. then I have to go back to all the other options. I also wonder if the vodka/Seaklear may be too much for the Wrasses? I've had a Fire Fish for quite some time now and he has went through doses of Vodka, Seaklear, & Purple up. So....Who knows? Oh well.


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## Reefing Madness

The dosing does not bother the fish, the high Nitrates do though.
If you were to keep a heater and a powerhead in your tub of RO water, it would not freeze.


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## treliantf

perm_dogg said:


> Madness, (as you may know) if I were to run a python or tube of water from my garage to my house.....I would never get water into the tank. It would freeze. Ha ha. But if you don't think that bothered it. then I have to go back to all the other options. I also wonder if the vodka/Seaklear may be too much for the Wrasses? I've had a Fire Fish for quite some time now and he has went through doses of Vodka, Seaklear, & Purple up. So....Who knows? Oh well.


Dosing works only when you are removing nitrate with the help of phosphate. If you remove phosphate independently by GFO (better) or Lanthanum chloride (Seaclear) you may need to monitor carefully the residual phosphate to ensure nitrate reductase has enough of it as a food when consume nitrate, otherwise your accumulated alcohol will bite you back sooner of later.
Lanthanum chloride in a few ppm excess will kill fish but highly unlikely to occur in sea water because of the high pH. For this, GFO or other fixed lanthanum products are safer for your tank.


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## Reefing Madness

There is aboslutely nothing going to happen in his tank due to dosing. I've been dosing for years. As long as your using a skimmer to remove the excess, you are not going to have any issues with either product. The idea of using this type of either is so that you can keep the levels exactly where you want them, you dose whats needed to maintain those levels, you don't just throw the stuff in the tank, and say ok, do your work.
Plus, in order to over dose either on, you'd need to dump both bottles into the tank, and then you could still do large water changes to right this issue very quickly.


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## treliantf

http://pravarini.free.fr/WEW-Vol4.pdf
I don't want to bore anyone than necessary in detailed chemistry, which is too much for general public but if you really want to understand what I said, read it. I will get into lanthanum later if interests exist.


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## Reefing Madness

Nice article, has nothing to do with our SaltWater tanks I'm afraid. ROFL. As I stated, when used with Protein Skimmers to remove the excess bacterial build up, its prefectly safe to use in the tank. Please try again, and this time, please find an article pertaining to our systems. Thanks.


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## treliantf

Page 4:
ethanol = C = [∆ - NO3] x 0.475 + [O2] x 0.55
phosphorus = P = [∆ - NO3] x 2.26 x 10-3
where [∆ - NO3] = nitrate removal rate (mg/1)

This is as close as I can get.


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## Reefing Madness

Not close enough, where do you see bacterial removal via Skimmer??


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## perm_dogg

As of this afternoon with some new Corals added, here is my tank and here are my numbers after dosing this morning;

KH= 178
Calcium= 460
PH= 8.2
Nitrates= 0
Phosphates= 0
Salinity= 1.025
Temp= 76'

Didn't have the patience to do a Mag test. But I THINK it looks okay.


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## treliantf

If you don't have any hard corals then Mg is not critical.


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## Reefing Madness

Gonna need to test the Mag with those SPS bro, also gonna need to get that KH up quite a bit. Its way to low.


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## perm_dogg

How do I get the KH up further?


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## perm_dogg

Disregard that last question. I confused alk. with mag. How do I adjust the mag?


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## Reefing Madness

Magnesium chloride hexahydrate, also known as Mag Flakes.
You should have this stuff in abundance where you live bro.
20 Pounds Magflake Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate Mag Flakes Free Shipping | eBay
Reef Chemistry Calculator


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## perm_dogg

Damn. Them mag tests are a nightmare, but its necessary now. I can't afford to lose my investment at this point.


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## treliantf

Reefing Madness said:


> Not close enough, where do you see bacterial removal via Skimmer??


You did not get my point yet. Let me do more explanation. I figured your system from your post photos and concluded that there is huge difference between your reef tank and my fish tank:
*Lighting*: I have little 180W CFL (soon be LED) for display illumination not for photosynthesis. Yours for coral growth and therefore promotes nitrate assimilatory removal by light as a side benefit. Basically nitrate is converted into bio mass photochemically, in a ratio of 1:7:40 (P:N:C), with P as the limiting element. Your Vodka provide C here. This means the skimmer would have to work hard all the time.
*Oxygen level*: mine is saturated (7 ppm), yours much less (3ppm? I guess), otherwise your corals would have been intoxicated and die. Lower O2 concentration promotes certain bacteria to do dissimilatory nitrate removal by converting to N2 gas and bubbles out, nitrate problem solved as well. At high O2, this process stopped completely (because it is a reduction) and your alcohol will accumulate if dosing continues.
The dissimilatory nitrate removal is much preferred because no need to clean/dump your skimmer wastes. Your only waste is nitrogen gas, you don't see you don't mind.
*UV sterilizer*: I have one, you don't. UV at certain dose kills certain bacteria that is responsible for nitrate removal.
Last question is why I saturate my tank with O2 and UV? Because they keep HLLE away and help maintaining my fish's color and longevity at nitrate level well over 100ppm!
BTW I have all data to support my claims.


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## perm_dogg

Okay,

I hate to do this again....But I have to make this very clear without some "Moderator" (or whatever they are called) trashing my posts. Here is the thing. I do NOT care how chemical balances happen, work, or become, I care what keeps my fish/Corals alive. Madness has gotten me as far as I am without a single piece of advice failing me. Not equipment, not dosing recommendations, nothing. My tank has performed without a loss of life for a solid year now. I'm not taking anything away from you as you clearly like to read books or whatever, but I don't come on here to argue, nor do I want to hear arguing over my questions. I just need to solve my issues and learn one step at a time as I am sure you all did at first too. I like to be cost and energy efficient in my techniques. That is what I've been provided by Madness and CB. That is the level I am on. Maybe 10 years from now we can come back and see who is "right" until then. Stick to the script please. Thanks.


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## treliantf

Did I trash anybody for referring to literature or my own data, pardon me.
There is no best way, there are bunch of better ways. We have the same goal to keep our living investments as long as we can, can't we? Thanks.


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## Reefing Madness




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## treliantf

Reefing Madness said:


>


Patriots' bashing Redskins?


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## Reefing Madness

OHHHH, now that one I like!!


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## perm_dogg

Did the Mag test tonight. I'd say its floating just above 1250. Thats pretty good. I did the Alk test that came with the mag kit. Not 100% on how to read that backwards ****, but on both Borate and total Alk. I used exactly .4 ml out of the syringes so thats like....yeah. I dont really know.....My Corals and fish are happy though


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## treliantf

perm_dogg said:


> I do not have a sump...Yet. It's a long story. Ha ha.


I never had a marine tank without a sump. It's simple to make and you then capable of ATO, keeps your tank water leveled all the times. Want to share why not?*w3


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## perm_dogg

Yep. I will share. I do not have a sump because I'm a procrastinator and an extraordinarily cheap bastard. I argued every single thing I've had to purchase to date for my tank, but when it was all said and done I ended up forking over the dough and doing it right. There are only 2 reasons I do not have a sump right now. #1. I do not have a predrilled tank and I have very expensive hardwood floors below my tank so I do not want to take the risk of an overflow box. And #2. I couldn't make a birdhouse from a milk jug. I'm not DIY expert. I suck at life when it comes to building things. So. If there's more to it than that.... I would love to have a sump, just hasn't hit me yet. Maybe when/if I go bigger with my tank, then I will make sure to have one.


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## treliantf

Don't blame yourself, I understand because I almost ruined my cherrywood floor, which is under my tank, because of my aging percula (14 years in my tank and ~18 total) died and blocked the exit of overflow box while I was away for business. Guess what, a good wood floor can tolerate and tolerated this amazing sea water flood and slowly come back to original shape,size and color, all by itself in 6 months. More luckily, I suffered no other casualties and the salinity was 1.014 because of RO keep pumping in to compensate the overflowed tank. It's a true story.


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