# Planted Tank very cloudy



## thestormysky

Hey guys,
I have a 50 gallon planted aquarium. The tank has been set up for about 6 years or so and I added plants about a year ago. Everything has been growing very well, especially my Cabomba and Amazon Swords. I have a school of tiger barbs and about 7 weeks ago added some Rosy tetras and bleeding heart tetras. After about a day the barbs completely left the tetras alone. I also have 3 flying foxes, a clown Pleco, Sailfin Pleco, and a redtailed shark in there. for the past month or so my tank has been on and off cloudy. My nitrates are a bit high - about 80ppm so I've been doing weekly (to biweekly) water changes to try to get them down. I've been adding Cycle with each water change - to help keep the bacteria stable. The red tail shark I've had for about a year just died about 2 weeks ago. I bought another one about a week later. 

I do a water change (10 gallons) and it clears up for acouple days then it gets cloudy again, or a bit hazy. Then I do another water change and it clears up again but after a few days gets hazy again. I work at a pet store and brought in some water and I tested the ammonia and it was between .25 and .50. So I talked to the fish guy and we both agreed that could be the cause for thecloudiness. So I loaded up my filter with the Ammonia Remover gravel, along with 2.5 cups of Carbon. Well it's been 2 days and now I ca'nt even see my fish. 

The only thing that I did differntly in this time is put in some flourish tablets - just a 10 pack just under 2 weeks ago - after my last water change. I am not sure how long they have been in the store- probably quite a few years, so its possible that could be part of the cause?

Does any one have any ideas as to why it could be getting so cloudy and is gettnig worse with the more water clairifiers I put in there (carbon, ammonia remover)? Oh, I first tried a liquid water clairifier and that didn't work - which is why we don't think it is particles in the water but some sort of stress factor. 

Ideas???


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## KG4mxv

Well I never have use any water clarifiers and after a big water change my water does get a bit hazy but it clears n a day or so. 

I would turn the lights off for a day or so and a 20% water change and no chemicals other than water conditioner.
and light feeding 1/2 as much as usual. 

Also the only time I have ever used ammonia carb is when I had a tank full of gold fish for feeders. 

and if you don't rinse the ammonia carb and req carbon ver well it also can cloud the water a bit. 

I would keep an eye on the water quality but jut let things balance.

also when was the las time you vacuumed your gravel. 
also do you have any driftwood? and how long has it been in there. 
if it is rotting it can make things go nutty.


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## jrman83

Just increase your water change percentage to 40-50% for now at least. What are your feeding habits? How many fish are in the tank and what type of filtration do you have? No need to kill the lights, it will not help unless the cludiness is a green color (algae bloom).


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## beaslbob

What I would do is

1) stop adding chemicals

2) stop doing water changes

3) Stop adding food

4) kill the lights.

the resume with less lighting and feeding when the water is clear. find a duration of lights and amount of feeding where where the plants grow and the water remains clear.

Only use dechlor if you are doing water changes with tap water that has not sat out for a day or two. and only add dechlor for the replacement water not the entire tank.


my .02


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## jrman83

Makes no sense...water changes are now necessary to get the ammonia down before more fish die and lights don't cause cloudiness unless there is algae in the water. Not doing a water change is just asking for more fish to die. Evidentally, the plants that are present now aren't keeping up with the generation. Always add dechlor, no matter what unless your on a well that doesn't get dosed with chlorine or chloramines.


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## thestormysky

The only thing I am worried about by doing a 50% water change is that I will takeout too much bacteria. Nate (fish guy) was thinking that maybe I had a die off of bacteria and my tank is in the process of recycling, hence the ammonia and cloudiness. When I do my water changes, it takes out too much bacteria and counteracts by causing it to try to recycle again. 

I clean the gravel with every water change, i have a water siphon that I use to drain the water and in the process it takes all the junk out of the gravel. I use RO water so I don't put anything in it to treat the water. I was using RO right, but that dropped my PH so much that it was hurting my fish (it was about 6.0). I have been cuting back feeding my fish. I have 8 barbs, 4 Rosy Tetras, 5 Bleeding hearts, 1 Red Tail Shark, 3 Flying foxes, 1 4" Sailfin Pleco, 1 Clown Pleco (about 3").


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## jrman83

Adding RO water is fine, but it is not safe to add 100%. Usually it will have all your gh and kh stripped from the water. Your kh is what holds your ph stable. RO ph is usually about 7.0 and since you were taking out kh your ph may have been fluctuating up and down and why you may have seen 6.0 levels. Best thing to do is add 50/50 at the most.


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## NeonShark666

Cloudy water is almost always caused by a Bacteria Bloom. Don't add any chemicals or fish or make any water changes for a few weeks and you tank should stabalize and clear up. Add a very limited amount of food and no fresh or frozen food for awhile. If you need to add water lost through evaporation, use only Distilled Water, this simulates rainfall. I have a moody Giant Pleco and every once in awhile he trys to get to China through the gravel. After this my water in cloudy for several days.


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## jrman83

Okay so, probably shouldn't say it but I hate to see the conflicting views as they do nothing but potentially confuse the original poster. Between Beasl and Neon, these are some of the worst suggestions I have seen for someone with a problem.

Reasoning:

- Water changes. Doing/Not doing water changes has absolutely nothing to do with a stabalized tank. I am sure that there will be some argument there, but if 90+% of the community does water changes and it is the "norm" that is discussed throughout the community - this CANNOT be wrong. I struggle to find resources that actually say to not do them - even Walstad did some water changes. The worst thing you can do when a tank is having issues that involve toxic environment - the WORST the you can do is sit there and look at it! That is a fact.

- The OP mentioned using RO water and having a ph of 6.0, and yet the recommendation is to top off with distilled water...what? Really? Distilled water has what for kh/gh/ph? And you're going to add that to a tank that "probably" has near zero kh to hold a ph value as it is? This is like trying to put out fire with gasoline.

- If ammonia is present in a tank that already has potentially killed one fish, why do nothing? Forget any other issue the tank may have, the ammonia has to have #1 priority and the best and quickest way is to do a water change - even if it is a planted tank. Again, just looking at it isn't going to help and every minute it stays is another period the fish in the tank has to endure.

Remedy:

- Doing a 50% water change with water from the tap will more than likely fix the immediate issue of ammonia in one swoop a mere 30 minutes later. 

- If the water has the necessary kh (unknown) it will also more than like likely beef up he tanks overall kh and allow it to hold a "stable" ph. Then maybe stability can be gained. 


Stop adding in food or chemicals are good items and should be standard recommendations for issues. Doing nothing about ammonia and an unstable ph is not.


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## beaslbob

The question is not whether or not to do nothing but rather what new things to do to prevent the existing conditions from continueing.

The ammonia is very low and may be locked up by the chemicals added.

My course of action was to insure the plants thrive and consume ammonia completely while at the same time returning nutrients the plants need.

But then we all have differeing ideas of what is needed.

Those were just what works for me.

And worth at most .02


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## beaslbob

jccaclimber said:


> Cutting light will not encourage the plants unless there's already a significant nutrient shortage resulting in deformed or stunted plants. Given what I suspect is a large food load, and no indication that there is too much light, I'm not sure where that advice comes from. If anything you're taking advice that on other forums you have said may be restricted to your easy plant live bearer (hard water) tanks and are trying it impose it on a tetra tank that is likely stocked beyond what your systems would keep stable.


Which is why I also state to stop adding food.

FWIW I use these techniques on tetras like neons as well. And I agree you have to use some peat moss to keep kh and gh in line. But neons have lived for years with these techniques. 

After a year of running it is almost "normal" in high light tanks to have (or have had) some kind of clouding issues. IMHO due to an inballance of nutrients resulting in cyano blooms. Killing the lights and stopping all food additions rebalances the tank and kills off the cloudiness. Then you resume with less lighting and feeding to the tank stays in balance allowing the plants to remain in control and thrive.

I recommend these methods because In my experience in both Freshwater and marine aquariums they have always worked without failure and I can't remember a single fish loss in the process. But then I may have lost a single fish and just can't remember it. *old dude

But then that's just me and my


.02


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## jrman83

That way makes too many assumptions. I would not fret over whether or not the ammonia is locked/not locked, but instead act as if it wasn't. The bacteria will still bloom regardless. Waiting for plants to comsume the ammonia could take days and by then you could have more dead fish. Waiting also doesn't address the potentially (unknown) low to zero kh issue that may exist. Fresh tap water may not either if it is very soft water, but more than likely will help. The plants will not stabalize the ph to a non-fluctuating state or get it up higher. In fact, in the presence of ammonia and no kh the ph will continue to bottom out to <6.


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## beaslbob

thestormysky said:


> The only thing I am worried about by doing a 50% water change is that I will takeout too much bacteria. Nate (fish guy) was thinking that maybe I had a die off of bacteria and my tank is in the process of recycling, hence the ammonia and cloudiness. When I do my water changes, it takes out too much bacteria and counteracts by causing it to try to recycle again.
> 
> *I clean the gravel with every water change, i have a water siphon that I use to drain the water and in the process it takes all the junk out of the gravel*. I use RO water so I don't put anything in it to treat the water. I was using RO right, but that dropped my PH so much that it was hurting my fish (it was about 6.0). I have been cuting back feeding my fish. I have 8 barbs, 4 Rosy Tetras, 5 Bleeding hearts, 1 Red Tail Shark, 3 Flying foxes, 1 4" Sailfin Pleco, 1 Clown Pleco (about 3").


If you stirr up the substrate in that process that could account for much of what is going on. never stirr up the gravel in planted tanks.

my .02


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## jrman83

beaslbob said:


> If you stirr up the substrate in that process that could account for much of what is going on. never stirr up the gravel in planted tanks.
> 
> my .02


How does this make a difference? I stir up mine all the time with zero issue, but I don't vacuum.


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## thestormysky

My husband just told me today that he pulled a dead fish out of the tank, so I ended up doing about a 45% water change.

As far as my Nitrates go, they have been an ongoing problem for me. They were 200+ because I never did water changes on it...ever. Once I started working at the pet store I learned all about tank and proper care so have been doing water changes since. For the past 6 months or so I have been doing between 2 and 4 a month to get them down. With each water change you only drop the Nitrates between 20 and 40 ppm regardless how much water you take out. Which is why it is such a job to reduce them. Within that 6 months I didn't do water changes for about a month and they spiked back up again. So over the past 3 months I've probably done 8 or 9 water changes and have gotten them down to the 60-80 range. My fish in there are fine, but it's adding fish that I know will have a problem with the levels. 

When I do my water changes I always siphon the gravel, but am very careful around the base of the plants for the roots. 

From everything I have read about plants they do best in RO water, which is why I switched it over. Also the PH in the city water is about 9.5 and has a steady level of 20 ppm Nitrates - discusting. Most plants shouldn't have a Ph that high. Everything I have ever been told is to absolutely never use distilled water in fish or reptiles. 

I've just retested my water and my ammonia is back down to zero. And after this water change I can see the background of my tank....lets hope it gets better by tomorrow! And my shark is MIA. Not sure if he died or maybe he jumped out? / I looked everywhere in the tank, took out all the Cabomba and replanted it and didn't see him. Poor guy, I hate losing fish!

Thanks for all your input and suggestions. The petstore I work at is a family owned petstore and therefore we are all very knowledable...unlike your Petcos and Petsmarts. But since my fish guy was coming up clueless, I thought I'd ask for others ideas incase it was something totally obvious we were missing. 

I do know that the cloudiness is not from over feeding. This I am always careful not to do - because I used to do it. And it's not an algae bloom...as the water isn't green. 

And to whoever said that my redtail shouldn't be in a 50 gallon..everything I've read says that 50 gal is the smallest they should be in, and one to a tank. Which is why I got one. As for the Pleco, the last one I had got about 10 inches and I had him for about 5 years - I know they should live considerably longer then that...that was back before I worked at the petstore and didn't do water changes...so I figured out that after 2 years of super high Nitrates probably put quite the strain on him so he only lived about 5 years total. Also, if he gets too big I can always take him into work - we are always taking in large plecos - usually the commons that are 24+inches and people buy them for their big tanks (125g+).

I am, however pretty sure I figured out why the cloudiness got so much worse. I think that from doing so many water changes it caused a die off of bacteria, which caused my tank to recycle, which caused the ammonia spike, which caused the cloudiness. I first put in Carbon - 2.5 cups (.5c per 10 gal, rec amount). The next day I put in the ammonia remover stuff as well. Then by the next day it was way worse....ya somehow I sorta, forgot to rinse the carbon.....So in my water change now I rinsed the crap out of the carb and rerinsed the ammonia stuff...so I'm really hoping that it all gets cleard up. I will let you all know what it looks like tomorrow...wish me luck that it's cleared up...


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## jrman83

Water changes do NOT cause a die off of ammonia unless you do them without adding dechlor. I know of people that do 2-3 50% water changes weekly with no issues. I do 70-80% weekly on all of my tanks. I would stop using the ammonia remover and do daily 30-40% water changes until you get your nitrates where they need to be. Trust me, the tank will continue to look better and better.


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## thestormysky

I know they don't cause a die off of ammonia....they can cause a die off of bacteria - the healthy kind that you need in your tank. So the when all that bacteria died it became the ammonia (like when a fish dies in your tank it releases ammonia). If doing that large of a water change works for you, the by all means. But everything we tell people is absolutely never do that much, because you run the risk of taking out too much bacteria and your tank will need to restablilize (recycle itself). If you are constantly removing so much water your tank probably isn't actually established because it doesn't ever have the time it needs to do so. 

I also know, that when it comes to fish and tanks every single person has their way that works for them. There are so many different opionins and ideas about how stuff should be. We always tell people if it works for them, then continue even if it's not what is actually recommended.


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## KG4mxv

Unless you have a very large drip system sump , you are correct the vast majority of the BB does exist in the substrate unless you use sand.


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## beaslbob

jrman83 said:


> How does this make a difference? I stir up mine all the time with zero issue, but I don't vacuum.


I guess if you stirr it up often enough it would probably be ok.

My concern is the anaerobic bacteria creating sulfur compounds and all the crud that is tossed up.

but then I don't stir up the substrate and just let all that stuff feed the plants and snails.

my .02


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## beaslbob

thestormysky said:


> ...
> 
> I also know, that when it comes to fish and tanks every single person has their way that works for them. There are so many different opionins and ideas about how stuff should be. We always tell people if it works for them, then continue even if it's not what is actually recommended.


+1


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## jrman83

thestormysky said:


> I know they don't cause a die off of ammonia....they can cause a die off of bacteria - the healthy kind that you need in your tank. So the when all that bacteria died it became the ammonia (like when a fish dies in your tank it releases ammonia). If doing that large of a water change works for you, the by all means. But everything we tell people is absolutely never do that much, because you run the risk of taking out too much bacteria and your tank will need to restablilize (recycle itself). If you are constantly removing so much water your tank probably isn't actually established because it doesn't ever have the time it needs to do so.
> 
> I also know, that when it comes to fish and tanks every single person has their way that works for them. There are so many different opionins and ideas about how stuff should be. We always tell people if it works for them, then continue even if it's not what is actually recommended.


Yes, I did mean bacteria. Large water changes do not adversely affect beneficial bacteria colonies. There is some in the water but the majority is attached to something (filter media, substrate, objects in tank, glass, etc).

What I am saying is that whatever "myth" that was out there regarding large changes is just that - a myth. Go to ANY planted website and ask what type of water changes they are doing weekly. I assure that my tank is well established. Actually, no offense, it is the belief in the methodology that you have been made to believe that has put you in the predicament that you're in. 

Believe what you want, but until you start doing bigger and more frequent water changes you will remain with the same issues....at least the high nitrates. 

Yes, people believe in their own way and do their own thing "if it works for them". Your way is "not working for you" or you wouldn't be asking for help. That is not me trying to slam you or be a smartass. Your methods are not working and need some type of change - nothing to argue about there.


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## susankat

I will agree on what Ben and jc are saying as I do 80 to 90% water changes on my tanks each week and saying that, I have 41 tanks to do that with. There is very little bacteria in the water column. Its on your substrate, plants, glass, deco, and filter. When the filter slows down if you clean it in old tank water or dechlorinated water the bacteria remains. Vaccumn needs to be done at least every 2 weeks to help remove some of the gunk that builds up.
I have different kinds of substrates and will even vac sand, most will just fall back into the tank any way. And vaccuming does not remove bacteria from the substrate. I have never had a tank to recycle because of my maint program. Also never had any sick fish in the past 20 years.
You may have been taught that this and that happens when you do to much water changes, but apparently you were taught wrong or you wouldn't be having the issues you are having now.


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## thestormysky

Thanks for your input guys. I always have an open mind and am always willing to try something new. I haven't ever had a problem with cloudy water in the over 6 years I've had my tank set up so I know something has changed I just can't figure it out. I will take into consideration what everyone said and let you know what I decide to do.


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## thestormysky

Ok so now my tank is green, has been since Saturday, so nearly a week. I did a 50% water change on Saturday night and put in Algaefix (said it's safe for plants). Well nothing happened. I cut the light, only had it on for 2 hours a day for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. I put more algaefix in on Tuesday and by Wednesday my tank looked only slightly cloudy. I did another water change on Wednesday- 40% this time. Well now it's Friday night and my tank is still very hazy. I know that typically you would cut lights by 100% but because of my plants I don't want to do that...and with nearly a week of hardly any more lights, I don't want to start killing my plants. So today I have increased the lights to on for 5 hours...two hours in the am and 3 in the evening. 
I can now see the background, and have been able to see the background for about 3 days now. It is a light blue color, so thats a good sign, but it's still way too cloudy for me.
I just bought a full test kit and tested my water:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - About 50 ppm
Ph - 6.6

Once again, I use RO water. I haven't put any Plant grow (iron) in the tank for about 2 weeks, so I just put more in today, because I don't want to starve my plants. I have been putting in the liquid CO2 each day to help the plants. This I have been using daily for about 6 months and about 2 weeks after I started using it I noticed my plants getting larger. I do not have normal CO2 in it (way too expensive to buy the replacement CO2 cartridges each month). 

I know that some of you suggested I use tap water? I think next water change I'll put in 5 gallons of tap water, so I get some of the benefits of it in there. 

I don't know what else to do. I'm afraid my fish will get ich if I keep doing water changes so often, because of the temperature changes, it drops to 75F each time I change the water. I haven't ever had Ich before, but I know its caused by stress and temp changes. 

My fish seem not to care whatsoever about the green water. I've read (maybe on here) that green water doesn't bother fish, it's more natural for them. Besides the shark, I haven't lost anyone. Fish are thriving and being their normal crazy active selves. 

I will probably do another water change tomorrow? Do you all think that would be alright, and put some tap water in there when I do it?

I have barely been feeding my fish all week as well.

How do you suggest I fix my green water?
What do you think caused it? My spike in ammonia over a week ago? 
Someone said that I could add more plants that may help to "eat" the algae, what kind of plants do you recommend for this?

Should I change my substrate to the Fluval Stratum with a top of sand? If I do this, how much do you think I would need for my 50 Gallon tank? It is 36 in by 18 in...And if I use sand on top what kind of sand/how much of it? I know that sand is a Ph buffer, so if I use cichlid sand or aragonite it will raise my Ph..which isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it goes too high.

I know I have a ton of questions, but I am clearly doing something wrong...or did something wrong which caused the cloudy water, then turning it green...I just need to figure out the cause so I can not do it again, this is causing me so much money! But I need to get it fixed asap. 

One other question which isn't entirely related to this.... is that I have two 36 watt T5 bulbs on my tank. I have 4 huge Amazon Swords and endless Cabomba in my tank, but everything else has died (Red Ludiwigia, Scarlet Temple ((Fish ate overnight)), corkscrew, and some others), any ideas why? could it be the lack of CO2, or to much light? I know wattage wise I am on the low end, 1.5 wpg, but it is so bright in there and Cabomba is high light and is doing amazing.

Ok, this is super long, thanks for reading and any help would be muchly appreciated.


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## thestormysky

Alright, today was day 4 of the black out. What I ended up doing was buying a 10gallon tank. I then took out some of the gravel from my tank and put it into the 10gal. Then I put all the plants in the 10gal and took the light from my tank and put that on the 10gal. Then I covered up my tank, entirely, for 4 days. I was terrified to take it off today, afraid I'd find dead fish...well no dead fish and my water was crystal clear! My tank was over 85 degrees though....stupid heaters never shut off. 

I did a 35% water change, put the plants back, put the light back on, and everything looks great. I was worried about moving the plants, but I figured that was the best all around if I was going to do the black out, since nothing else seemed to be helping. 

Let's just hope that my tank stays crystal clear! 

Thanks again for all of your input.


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## thestormysky

Oh, and as far as the tap water goes...I don't know it could just be my test kit that is off?? Although I have used 3 seperate kits to test Nitrates and they all came up with about the same amount....


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