# Peat,sand?huh?



## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

What's this i'm heariang you need to do to start off your tank like this?Someone tell me why i have to do it?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Think root systems for live plants. Plants like sand, or something close to sand to put roots into. Peat adds nutrients to the roots of the plants as well, and helps control the hardness of the water in your tank (GH and KH).

You could just as easily buy a few bags of plant-specific substrate like Eco-Complete, Fluorite (what I use, unfortunately), etc., but peat moss and play sand are much cheaper than the plant-specific substrate.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

Oh i heard its hard to keep peat from floating,or sand?How can i counter that?


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

Oh and i need to put in aquarium salt for my freshwater tank?I have some for my red clawed crabs to make the water brackish.I have seen PetCo put it in a plastic cup i think had holes in it and just sat the cup at the bootom of the aquarium,is that the right method?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Any substrate will have floaties. But yes, if you are lining the bottom of your tank with peat moss, it likes to float so you need to add sand on top to weigh it down. As for the floaties, you really just have to let them float up to the surface then skim them off.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Not sure about salt. I used to use it, saw no difference in my tank, so I stopped using it.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

The tank will be a little cloudy for awhile. If your running a filter it will clear up in a day or so. I have done this twice and I found it very easy to mix the peat with water before putting it in the tank to get it very moist then put in the sand and the gravel and don't put and water on top of the sand. Just put the water in after the gravel is in.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> What's this i'm heariang you need to do to start off your tank like this?Someone tell me why i have to do it?


Do you want a planted tank? Nothing in your thread says that or even the location of it.

Just asking, because if you don't plan on one then this method may not be for you. If you do, this is just one method.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

If you are needing to make the aquarium brackish you need to use ocean salt and not just aquarium salt and to a specific point.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

I probably going to use a planted tank,sorry bout that jr.Would there be a problem putting in oto's in first after the tank is cycled?Or would they not have algae to eat or??


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## chevyboy_0 (Oct 29, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> Oh i heard its hard to keep peat from floating,or sand?How can i counter that?


I did this for my 50G Tank. I layed down the dry peat moss and then took a 1 Gallon pitcher and very very slowly poured some water throughout the layer and then took my hand and pressed down on it until the whole bottom layer was wet, and did the same for the sand. When I filled the tank it wasnt that cloudy at all


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> I probably going to use a planted tank,sorry bout that jr.Would there be a problem putting in oto's in first after the tank is cycled?Or would they not have algae to eat or??


Otos are not a good fish to cycle with. I'd go with danios or maybe Platies. I had good luck with Platies.


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## HUMAN1ESS (Oct 5, 2010)

I just put dry peat, then dry sand and pored my water in on top of a plastic cool whip lid. I did have a few floaters for a few weeks, but after everything gets well saturated and packed down nothing floats. I can dig a hole down to the peat in the sand in my tank and nothing floats.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

So they aren't good after the fishless cycle?Oto's?


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## chevyboy_0 (Oct 29, 2010)

I think what jrman is saying is that the otos aren't as hardy the platies or danios. Because during the cycle process the fish are stressed out from the spikes in the ammonia and other toxins in the water.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> So they aren't good after the fishless cycle?Oto's?


If your tank is done cycling otos could go in, but there won't be much for them to eat. Get some algae wafers and drop in pieces of a wafer, unless they can eat it all before the next day. You might also try blanched zuchinni (microwave a slice for 20 secs so it will sink). So far I don't have any algae, and they seem okay in my tanks, but I toss in half an algae wafer every few days.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

If you do a brackish tank the otos can't go into it. Neither will a lot of plants. You will have to be very selective on what you put in it.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

susankat said:


> If you do a brackish tank the otos can't go into it. Neither will a lot of plants. You will have to be very selective on what you put in it.


True, but at lower levels of salinity they seem to do fine. I've not had any trouble with my otos or plants at about half the aquarium salt dose. Never tried it higher. 

I'm not sure if he meant he intended to make this tank brackish, or if he just had it around from a red-claw crab tank. Which is it, Lil Gashog? If you go brackish then susankat is very correct, many plants and fish are out.

As to how you add it, I premix it in the water at a water change if I can, otherwise I've dumped it in before, but I think thats a really bad idea. Putting it in something and setting it in like petco is probably not a bad move.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

mfgann said:


> I'm not sure if he meant he intended to make this tank brackish, or if he just had it around from a red-claw crab tank. Which is it, Lil Gashog? If you go brackish then susankat is very correct, many plants and fish are out.
> 
> .


His statement;

Oh and i need to put in aquarium salt for my freshwater tank?I have some for my red clawed crabs to make the water brackish.I have seen PetCo put it in a plastic cup i think had holes in it and just sat the cup at the bootom of the aquarium,is that the right method?

This is why I posted that comment.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

No brackish setup freshwater tank,20g..so i have no clue what im doing so after i find a spot for it and have it in it's place all i know to do is

1.Add peat(moist)
2.add sand
3.live plants
4.add gravel(what kind?)
5.Use dechlorinator in buckets and let the water sit
6.Setup heater/filter/lights/decorations
7.add water
8.Then what?How long do i let it sit before adding fish?
9.Oh yeah and testing the water with kit
10.Partial water changes?If so i have no clue how to do them.

If this is wrong someone plzzzzz correct me,this is my first tank and don't want to make any mistakes(of course i prolly will)but still how long,and i have no clue about water conditioner either...


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

You'll need to cycle the tank for between 2 and 4 weeks before adding fish, otherwise you'll run the risk of poisoning them. Start the cycle with some raw shrimp from the grocery store in a mesh bag, or with fish food. Live plants speed up the cycle so I would suspect you won't have to wait long. You'll know your cycle is started after you've tested and seen a noticeable ammonia spike, then a noticeable nitrite spike, then both go back to 0 ppm and your nitrate stays high.

Equipment necessary for a partial water change:
1. 5 gallon plaster buckets (Homer Buckets, from Home Depot, for example) - make sure they're clean and don't use them for anything besides your fish tank. Do not clean the buckets with any chemicals, just good clean water.
2. Gravel vacuum and siphon - one setup, available at most pet stores with an aquarium section.
3. Tap water dechlorinator (tap water conditioner).

Steps to do a partial water change:
1. Siphon out 25%-50% of your tank water into the buckets. Do not vacuum the gravel if you are doing peat moss, sand, etc. So if you're working with a 30 gallon tank, siphon out between 7 and 15 gallons of water.
2. Change your filter media. Throw the old stuff out, rinse the new stuff in the buckets of water you just removed from your tank. Especially the carbon!
3. Dump dirty tank water out. Use same buckets and fill with tap water. Use your hand to get the temperature of the tank and the temperature coming out of the faucet the same. Doesn't have to be exact. Dechlorinate the tap water as it is filling the buckets.
4. Siphon the water from the buckets into the tank - DO NOT DUMP, or you will shock your fish.

Note: To siphon, the level of the water you are removing must be higher than the level of the empty vessel. So put the bucket under the fish tank to siphon out. To siphon into the tank, put the bucket higher than the tank. I always start the siphon by sucking on the end then releasing before I get a mouthful of fish tank water. For those that are afraid of fishy cooties, there are other methods which I don't know.:fish5:


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

And will have the filter running and the heater working while it's cycling right?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Set up the tank like you would have fish in there, just don't add fish. Filter, heater, lights, everything running until the ammonia and nitrite spikes go back to zero. If you don't see any spikes, exercise patience, but if nothing happens after a week, then you might be doing something wrong.

And remember, "spike" is a relative thing. A spike of 5 ppm ammonia is huge for the beginning of the cycle, while a spike of 120 ppm nitrate is pretty average for the end of the cycle. Read the manuals on your test kit for a better idea of what ranges to expect.

For more reading on cycling, here's a nice article:

The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

how do people feel about the chems that speed up the process for cycling?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What I was saying previously is that putting otos in the tank while it is still cycling is a bad idea. Beer off with danios or platies...or some other hardy fish.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> how do people feel about the chems that speed up the process for cycling?


Many people feel they don't help much. Some swear by them. I haven't used them so it is hard to say. No matter what the case may be, you need an ammonia source, or the bacteria they provide will just starve.

One other thing I think may be a problem, I think some only provide the first bacteria for colonization, and not the second. I forget what left me with this impression.

In any case they probably won't hurt, but could be a huge waste of money.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

I saw one at big als that says fish rdy in 2days...im tempted to try it with my 55 im setting up but I dont wanna "cheat".


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> I saw one at big als that says fish rdy in 2days...im tempted to try it with my 55 im setting up but I dont wanna "cheat".


I think "cheating" would be trying to use ammolock or something else that 'locks' the ammonia making it harder for the bacteria to consume the ammonia. (I assume it would be harder for the bacteria to convert.. I don't know the chemistry to verify this). I think something like that could prolong the wait for the tank to cycle.

A product that attempts to 'seed' your tank with beneficial bacteria probably won't hurt a thing. The main reason people think they could be a bad idea is trying to imagine how they could keep the bacteria from starving while the bottle sat on a shelf. If you want to try it, I say go for it and let us know if you test the results. Something like that would be awesome.

If you really want to seed the aquarium a bit cheaper, go to the fish store and offer to pay shelf price for gravel or an aquarium ornament they have in an established tank. It should be carrying beneficial bacteria. Just be sure they put it in a baggy with water, so it doesn't dry up and kill the bacteria.
It'll cost you the price of an ornament or gravel you were hopefully in there to buy anyway.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Cant cycle a tank in 2 days. Must be some other form of bacteria. Reminds me of false advertising such as pet stores selling non-aquatic plants as aquatic plants which then die 2 weeks later being submerged. Also with them selling grape vine wood as "driftwood" which rot in the water after 2 weeks and smells of rotten eggs.*


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Speaking of rotten eggs, I'm doing a fishless cycle with 3 chopped up raw grocery store shrimp in a mesh bag sitting in the bottom of my 10 gallon. Been in there less than 4 hours, and they are quite pungent. Anyone else notice the water smelling a little rank when you lift the lid to test the water parameters?


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

so lemme get this straight 

peat
sand
plants
gravel 
water

in that order?


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> so lemme get this straight
> 
> peat
> sand
> ...


I reversed plants and gravel, but for most plants the other way would work as well or better. I will caution though, that some plants need the rhizomes above the substrate (including gravel) or it will die over time.

I usually just push the plants down through the gravel layer a bit, how deep I go depending on how big a plant it is. But then, I'm new to this


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lil Gashog said:


> No brackish setup freshwater tank,20g..so i have no clue what im doing so after i find a spot for it and have it in it's place all i know to do is
> 
> 1.Add peat(moist)
> 2.add sand
> ...


sounds good to me

with some minor changes
5 don't use any chemicals and after planting fill the tank with untreated tap water.
6 don't use heater/filter/decorations (in a room comfortable to humans.)
8 let set 1 week fishless
9 no testing required.
10 no water changes. just replace evaporative water.

plants mix of fast growers (anacharis/vals) and slow growers (small potted and a single amazon sword)

after 1 week add a male platy wait one week with no food added.
then add 2 female platties and start feeding 1 flake per day.

my .02


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

oh ok,mollies aren't play's though..right?


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## chevyboy_0 (Oct 29, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> oh ok,mollies aren't play's though..right?


correct Mollies are a different species of fish then Platys


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lil Gashog said:


> oh ok,mollies aren't play's though..right?


that's correct.

I suggested platys because they are hardy therefore result in a successful tank.

Mollys are more of a problem in FW.

you can use this method for other fish with add 1 fish wait one week then add 4 more type thing.

my .02


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

Any idea of what kind of platy species would do in a 20g tank?

EDIT:My lfs are Petsmart & PetCo(eww)


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lil Gashog said:


> Any idea of what kind of platy species would do in a 20g tank?
> 
> EDIT:My lfs are Petsmart & PetCo(eww)


my first tank was with red wag platys so I kinda like them.

also dwarf sunburst oranges look nice also.

they worked so well I have no experience with others. *old dude


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Red Wags are cool and Petsmart usually has a ton of them. I also like Sunburst or Sunburst Mickey Mouse Platies. I have some Sunburst that have been in my tank from the first week, 7 months ago. And my tank has been through a lot since it was established.


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

Oh ok!And what kind of filtering should i use?And any brand of heaters do well?
Once again my lfs are petsmart & petco


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Only thing I would caution on with the heater is to maake sure you get one that you can adjust the temp on. Wal Mart here only has ones that you can't change the temp. If your sick, for example, get ick then the best way to treat it (for the fish and the plants) it to turn the heat up and add a little salt to the tank. But if you can't adjust the temp then you can't do that.

My rooms are all 'human comfortable' but I still keep heaters in all my tanks just for back up. My husband is a cold freak so I don't want him to turn down the room heater and hurt my fish.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Lil Gashog said:


> Oh ok!And what kind of filtering should i use?And any brand of heaters do well?
> Once again my lfs are petsmart & petco


Use AquaClear filters. They are Hang On Back (HOB), and in my opinion the best bang for your buck, short of a canister filter. They're easy to operate and maintain, however they do make some noise and after every water change you need to re-prime the filter (just dump a few cups of water into the filter).

Get an AquaClear that's rated for 2/3 to twice the rating for your tank, or two AC's that are both rated at the capacity of your tank. Depends on how much filtration you want and how many outlets you have available. And if you're going to get some shrimp or smaller critters, get some foam to stick the inlet of the filter into. That way the little guys won't get sucked up and mulched.

For heaters, get a nice Marineland or Aqueon heater. 50 Watts is good for 10 gallon tanks, 300 Watts is good for 55 gallon tanks, or you could do redundancy and get two 150 Watt heaters at each end of the tank for a 55. Depends on the size of the tank and the number of available outlets.

Hope this helps!


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## Lil Gashog (Dec 1, 2010)

It's a 20g and i do have a strip of outlets avaible thankfully!And where would i get my plants?And what kind would be best for my tank as i plan for my first fishies to be 2 sunburst platy's and overtime will add oto's...


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

If you're doing a 20 gallon, get an AquaClear 50 or 2 AquaClear 20's. Probably overkill, but they have flow controls to reduce the flow rate through the filter, and if you go the 2xAC20's, you can always just remove one and keep it as a spare if you find you are over filtering. And by over filtering, I mean too much water movement in the tank.

I would suggest 2 Aqueon 50 Watt heaters, one in each back corner of the tank, that way you get more uniform heating than 1 big one in one corner of the tank.

What are you using for a hood and/or light?

For plants, I would recommend anubias, crypts, and marimo moss balls. There are a few others, but I know from experience that these are very easy to maintain and require little in the way of CO2, fertilizers, and light. Just keep your aquarium light on a timer, 12 hours on 12 off, per day. Good routine for your fishes, too.


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