# Ich... blargh



## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

Hey guys, I think I have a case of ich/ick. I noticed my roseline sharks rubbing themselves sharply against my plastic driftwood for the past week or so (but didn't notice any spots), and I just recently spotted some spots in my cherry barbs.

I'm honestly not sure what's the best thing for me to do. 

This is my current tank set up

75 gallon tank, 48 x 18 x 21
2 AquaClear 110 (both with sponge on intake, sponge in filter, 1 with carbon, 1 with polyfill, both with biomax)
1 Stealth Heater 400 watt (I believe)
1 bubbler

Plants:
1 Anubias nanas
2 Anacharis
2 Amazon swords
1 Hedge 
1 Water Sprite
1 Java Fern

Fish:
3 Roseline Sharks
3 Cherry Barbs
2 Syno Petricola catfish
1 Reticulated Hillstream Loach
2 Rummy Nose
6 Celestial Pearl Danios
2 Gold Rams

I have had about 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt added per gallon. Temperature is currently at 75 degrees.

I'll slowly increase the temperature to ~83ish degrees by tomorrow night. 

Will this be fine? What else should I be aware of?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*I am good at treating ich and others may have a different approach as everyone has there own ways to treat it. So whoever reads my post dont flame me 

I used to add salt to my main tank when I got an ich breakout but it caused all my plants to shrivel, turn brown and eventually die and I never knew why at first (And I have many many plants). I ended up having an ugly tank for what seemed like an eternity . They all eventually grew back though after many many water changes to remove the salt but it took a long time. 

I now remove all fish and treat them seperately. So what I do now is remove all fish from the main tank to give them a dip. I use 5 tbsp of salt per gallon to make it salty to burst the cysts off and kill parasites on the fish (it literally removes the white cysts due to osmosis). I keep them in there for about 3-5 mins or until I see signs of stress. After that, I then move all the fish to a quarantine tank for a period of 4-7 days with 1/2 or 2/3 of regular dose of Ich med such as Quick Cure and 1 tbsp salt per 5 gallon. During all of this I add NOTHING to the main tank but I do increase the temperature to 85 degrees to increase ich cycle. Most of the ich will die due to no fish host except the dormant ones along the gravel. The dormant ones will never die whether or not you treat the main tank with meds or not because of its protective casing.

Since you dont have a lot of plants.. what you can do is temporarily move the plants to a different container and treat the main tank. I would try to avoid the addition of meds to the main tank and use them as a last resort because meds kill beneficial bacteria and cause it to go into a mini-cycle. Then worry about that stupid "cloudy water". What you did seems fine. For the fish with the cysts you can give him a short dip and move him back to the main tank. I heard clown loaches are very sensitive to salt, is that Reticulated Hillstream Loach similar to that species? If it is I'd keep an eye on him. 

Ive also noticed that the second time ich came around for me, the fish that had it before didnt have it this time. Only the second generation got it. Reminded me of chicken pox .*


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank you for the reply. 

So what I have done is fine? How long should I keep this up, some of the fish seem stressed (cherries and danios). Should I do water changes?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

Mikolas said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> So what I have done is fine? How long should I keep this up, some of the fish seem stressed (cherries and danios). Should I do water changes?


*Yea everything looks fine. A good rule of thumb is a week. Some people go a little less and some a little more. Oh yes I forgot, do water changes. In your case make sure to suction the top of the substrate to get rid of the ich that are along the substrate floor. Because after coming off the fish, they fall down to the bottom of the tank. And remember to replace the amount of salt that you removed from water changes*.


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

Temperature is at 83 at the moment. I used about 1 tablespoon of salt per gallon. Did a water change last night of about 20%.

I gave the roselines, cherries, and rummy nose last night a saline bath of about 4 tablespoons per gallon for about 3-5 minutes. It didn't seem to come off some of them. 

Infection spread to most of the fish now. None of them have it seriously, maybe a few specks at the most. 

I ended up purchasing a med called aquari-sol mild treatment. I guess I didn't trust the salt/heat method enough seeing that they were all getting infected regardless of the raised temperature and salt levels. 

I accidently overdosed it by about 25% above the suggested treatment.

Plants seem to be dying. I'm not sure if it's from the medication or the salt, or both. 

I'm at a loss, I'm not used to these sort of situations.


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## ladyonyx (Apr 20, 2009)

Plant die-off from salt is normal and they will eventually come back after treatment is over and the water is back to normal. If you don't want to deal with that though (and if this is possible), you could take your plants out and temporarily keep them in another setup.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*How long has it been since you started the heat/salt treatment. If you feel like its absolutly not working you can introduce the med. OR quarantining them in another tank and treating them with meds there. So you wont kill the beneficial bacteria in the main tank. 

The ich should be dieing off if you added 1tbsp per gallon. Everytime I used a dip it removed 75% or more of the white cysts. I remember tasting the water before putting the fish in it (No i didnt taste the aquarium water it was the tap water , and it was very salty. I mightve used 1/2 a gallon to 4 tbsp of salt. It was salty enough to where I put fish in it and they float up to the top because of the density of the water. It was sort of like that Black Lake not sure if thats what its called but people can actually just float when laying in the water due to the saltiness. *


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## dave in Iliamna (Aug 15, 2009)

NursePlaty said:


> * It was sort of like that Black Lake not sure if thats what its called but people can actually just float when laying in the water due to the saltiness. *


Are you refering to the dead sea?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

dave in Iliamna said:


> Are you refering to the dead sea?


*OH YEA. Yes, that. I knew it was dead something but I didnt want iot to come off all wierd.*


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

It's been the fourth day since I've started taking action against the ich. On the first day, I used aquari-sol mild, did water changes, and dipped some of the fish in a 4 tbsp/gallon salt bath. On the second day, third, and finally today, I switched medication (I heard it was better) to QuICK cure. 

Other then some odd berserk moments the cherries, rummy nose, syno catfish, reticulated hillstream loach had a few instances, the fish seem for the most part fine and just as active as before. They all eat quite well. 

However, I'm just wondering if after starting medication, I'm not suppose to see any new spots on the fish? Because truthfully, even after starting medication, more and more of my fish have become infected and show noticeable spots of ich. Some of them have at least 5 - 10 spots (opposed to a mere day or two before when they barely had any) Is this a sign of the medication not working or is it too soon to say?

Temperature is at 84ish, about 1 tbsp of salt per 5 gallons (though this is very general because I lost count)


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

Mikolas said:


> It's been the fourth day since I've started taking action against the ich. On the first day, I used aquari-sol mild, did water changes, and dipped some of the fish in a 4 tbsp/gallon salt bath. On the second day, third, and finally today, I switched medication (I heard it was better) to QuICK cure.
> 
> Other then some odd berserk moments the cherries, rummy nose, syno catfish, reticulated hillstream loach had a few instances, the fish seem for the most part fine and just as active as before. They all eat quite well.
> 
> ...


*Im not sure, I've never treated my main tank before for ick and the last time I did was long ago and that was when I was new to my first breakout in ich. I threw in Melafix, Primafix, Quick Cure, and Salt due to my lack of knowledge. Half of my fish ended up dieing, but I dont know if it was from the meds or from the ich. As I got more experienced, I treated them seperately from the main tank and it worked ever since.

Even with the Quick Cure and the salt and heat treatment, its wierd how your ich problem is still progressing. Im not too sure about that, and dont want to give wrong advices. During all 4 days have you been vaccuming the floor of the gravel? And have you bene replacing the meds and salt that you took out from the water changes?*


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## dave in Iliamna (Aug 15, 2009)

I believe the parisite that causes ich burrows into the fishes skin then the cyst forms a day or 2 latter. (I am not sure how long it takes) 
I used quick cure a last year when I had an ich out break. It may take several days before your fish show imporvment. I know it is tough but quick cure only kills the parisite between the time it hatches from the cyst and the time it burrows into the fishes skin, so it may take up to 14 days to completely get rid of the ich. Though it sounds like you have your tank warmed up quite a bit that will shorten the time but I don't know how much.


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

I have not done water changes since the first day, my schedule unfortunately didn't allow me to. 

I will be doing one today however, the Quick Cure stated that I must do so anyway after 3 days of medication, I intend to do about 50%. 

Even though I haven't done my water changes, I don't believe that alone tips the balance in allowing the ich to continue to progress? I would assume that the high temperature, the salt, the medication should still prevail.

I gave some of the more infected fish another salt bath, I came close to nearly killing some of them. I used 4-5 tablespoons of salt in a 1 gallon bath again. I'd have to say that out of the noticeable larger spots, 80% if not more at least still remain after giving them the bath. 

I have set up a 10 gallon aquarium with medication, moved some of the dying plants, and used biomax from the main tank into the 10 gallon tanks filter. I have the fish that has noticeable signs of infection so that I can at least prevent some of the parasites from maturing and releasing into the main tank. 

Out of curiosity, have any of you used Quick Cure? From what the medication states, the water may remain blue for a couple of days, but the color only lasts maybe a few hours at the most in my tank. I was wondering if this was due to something soaking up the medication and thus causing the delay in curing my fish. I noticed my sponges were blue even after the color disappeared from the water. I had the carbon removed, but still have the sponge, polyfill and biomax in the tank. 

It appears that I have a rather resilient strand of ich?


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

dave in Iliamna said:


> I believe the parisite that causes ich burrows into the fishes skin then the cyst forms a day or 2 latter. (I am not sure how long it takes)
> I used quick cure a last year when I had an ich out break. It may take several days before your fish show imporvment. I know it is tough but quick cure only kills the parisite between the time it hatches from the cyst and the time it burrows into the fishes skin, so it may take up to 14 days to completely get rid of the ich. Though it sounds like you have your tank warmed up quite a bit that will shorten the time but I don't know how much.


Well what do you mean by several days before my fish shows improvement? Do you mean that they act better, or that there are less spots on them after that time, or...? I guess what I'm confused about is the fact that I'm not sure if starting this medication means that it will immediately halt all progress in ich, or if it's one of those things where it has to get worse before it gets better? I was expecting the first, and am wondering if that is what it should be.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

several days just like humans for medications to take effect.

Ich is best treated with heat and aquarium salt, even just heat, I had some cysts show up on 2 of the 6 discus I just bought, they are free and clear of it now, all cysts are gone however heat wont go down below 88 for another 2 weeks.

no by the time you usually notice it, it is at its worst. unless you dont pay attention and end up with pimple fish. those cysts pop and release the ich into the water column where all that is needed is a living tissue host. it can come in on plants, snails, even fish food.

Treatments arent something to rush, even in your mind.


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## dave in Iliamna (Aug 15, 2009)

Mikolas said:


> Well what do you mean by several days before my fish shows improvement? Do you mean that they act better, or that there are less spots on them after that time, or...? I guess what I'm confused about is the fact that I'm not sure if starting this medication means that it will immediately halt all progress in ich, or if it's one of those things where it has to get worse before it gets better? I was expecting the first, and am wondering if that is what it should be.


Ok so your treatment doesn't kill the parisite while on the fish. The treatment kills only the free swimming parisites.
The parisite burrows into the fishes at this point you can't see any thing wrong. next the visible cyst will form. Then the cyst falls off. From the cyst the free swimming parisites will hatch. They will then look for a fish to burrow in to to start all over. This is also the time that they will be vulnerable to the medication. At normal temperatures the cycle takes about 2 weeks. If you increase the temperature you will shorten the cycle.

Does that help?
(for any one supper picky Yes I know this is a simplifacation but I think it makes my point)

I am not sure whats going on with your treatment. When I used quick cure the water was blue and stayed blue. All I had for filtration was a sponge and my sponge did not remove the medication. It does sound like some thing is removing your medication, but if you have removed your carbon I don't know what would do that.


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

dave in Iliamna said:


> Ok so your treatment doesn't kill the parisite while on the fish. The treatment kills only the free swimming parisites.
> The parisite burrows into the fishes at this point you can't see any thing wrong. next the visible cyst will form. Then the cyst falls off. From the cyst the free swimming parisites will hatch. They will then look for a fish to burrow in to to start all over. This is also the time that they will be vulnerable to the medication. At normal temperatures the cycle takes about 2 weeks. If you increase the temperature you will shorten the cycle.
> 
> Does that help?
> ...


Could fake drift wood, plants, or polyfill soak in the medication? 

So what I can take from yours and Devil's comment, I shouldn't be surprised to see further ich development and thus should remain patient?

I'm still curious about the blue water disappearing so quickly.


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## dave in Iliamna (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't know if those items could pull the medication out of the water. 

Yes it could very well take several days before you see improvment. But keep up your treatment for a while after all the cysts have gone.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

Mikolas said:


> I have not done water changes since the first day, my schedule unfortunately didn't allow me to.
> *Its important to do vacuum water changes in the main tank to get rid of the ich that "fall off" the fish to the gravel. Vaccuming will get rid of this other stage of ich. *
> 
> Out of curiosity, have any of you used Quick Cure?
> *Yep, I have it too. It works really good because its a combination of Formalin and Malachite Green which are also both used to treat ich. Never had any problems with it, with good outcomes .*


*But with all the salt and the QuickCure you added. The disease should not be getting worse. As the others said I would wait a while. Because I dont believe ich can survive in both salt and Quick cure. Remember when you increase temperature, you are increasing the life cycle. So heat WITHOUT any treatment is actually making them reproduce faster with nothing to kill them. Heat WITH treatment makes them reproduce faster and decreasing population because they are all dieing off rapidly. Remember to do gravel water changes and replace any med salt you removed. Are the symptoms of the fish getting worse compared to the other days of treatment? Keep us updated.*


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

So... I thought the ich was taken care of, there were no signs of ich on any of the fish for the past few days.

I had recently quarantined a few of my fish due to dropsy or other odd behaviors. Mostly, all three cherries, and two of the roselines. One of the cherries has died today, the other cherries are acting weird as well. One of the Roselines is positive for dropsy, the other one is just slightly bloated so unsure.

In the main tank however, I've been watching them for the past few hours, and I've noticed several of the fish continues to scratch themselves against the gravel/etc. 

I noticed new cuts on the german ram male, and heavily damaged swimming fin on the female. I'm not sure what the causes are, but I believe the male hurt himself trying to scrape against something.

In either case, I'm not sure if this is normal, or that I may be getting a reinfection of ich.

I've been medicating continuously (though a bit lesser than the usual dosage by about 5%), temperatures are still at 84 (just bumped it up to 85), and salt is about .7 tbsp per 5 gallons. 

-_-, Shoot me, I'm getting very discouraged.


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## ladyonyx (Apr 20, 2009)

Getting rid of Ich can be a trying process. Hang in there and don't get too discouraged. It can take a while to get rid of considering the complex life cycles of most parasites.


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## Mikolas (Jan 16, 2010)

If the fish are scratching themselves against objects towards the end of ich infection (none of the fish have any crystals anymore), is ich really the only plausible reason, or could my tank now be infected with something else that wouldn't be fixed by Quick Cure?


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## ladyonyx (Apr 20, 2009)

The scratching (it's called flashing) is likely still a result of the ich infection. Their skin can remain irritated for a while even though the cysts are gone so the flashing they're still doing isn't abnormal. Just keep a close watch on them and be glad you're nearing the end of the ich. Bouts of ich make regular maintenance fish keeping seem easier


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