# New 120 Up And Running



## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK I got my new 120 with dual overflows up and running over the weekend.Everything is up to "snuff" the only difference in water quality is tank housing discus now has KH of 3 and new 120 has KH of 4(not a big diff I don't think).I have 2 sponges(6"x3"x3") that are fully cycled(in my 180 for months).My question is ;should I install sponges to new filter(berlinner wd125,running with mag 18) and place fish right in, or install filters and wait a little?My thought is the cycled sponges with no life in tank will lose potency.Should I install sponges and add some ammonia and test to see if they are effective?For the time being this tank will house only two (breeding pair) discus.Eventually if necessary I will divide tank for a second pair as I may have another pair who could breed also(time will tell).I'm in no hurry,just want to do this right and would be heartbroken if I were to lose my fish(because of a mistake I'm responsible for).I understand the cycle,and cycling so I really think they could go right in,but want feed back from others(I value other opinions).


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

You are probably correct that the fish could go right in but it hurts nothing to do a dose of ammonia to have peace of mind!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Discus are in.Thanks Dalfed for input!


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

coralbandit said:


> Discus are in.Thanks Dalfed for input!


We can't believe you until we see PICS!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Pictures will be in my gallery shortly.They seem to have settled in over the last couple days.I probably was to concerned as I change enough water and have pretty massive filteration for just 2 fish.Discus(fed properly) ranke right up there with goldfish and oscars as far as waste creators.Possibly why so many keeper/breeders change so much water.No eggs yet ,but they get there fair share of good food without distraction now,so hopefully soon.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

pics up in 120 album/or recent photo gallery(whole site).It's true and there will be documentation(photos and my BS) when they lay eggs.I'm super phsyched to think they will breed,and I'll get a chance to raise such a special fish.I love keeping,but this is the prize for me!


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Good luck


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

FishFlow said:


> We can't believe you until we see PICS!


Took the words right out of my mouth. the nerve of some people..*whip*


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## rtmaston (Jul 14, 2012)

I know you will enjoy it.posts some pictures?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

And so as promised,the BS begins: this is a picture just taken 5 minutes ago of the first spawn of my discus in their new 120!I may not know alot ,but I do pride myself on being observant.
Of all the reasons there are to have 2 heaters ,even after reading such,I would not have thought!The eggs are on the heater!
I gave them a nice big terra cotta pot,and 2 fantastic red slates,but no , they lay on the heater.Obivously I have unplugged that heater(there is another viewable in 120 gallery).
Start the clock as 48 hrs. is hatch time under proper conditions, and right about the time line they followed in the 180 community.
I will be shutting down the overflows in about 36 hrs and running the tank on sponge filters from then till I move fry or they grow large enough.
I barely had time to change any water on this tank as they have only been in since Tuesday!
IT'S TRUE,WITH PICTURES( AND BS).THE FUNNY PART IS I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!
Tom


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Great news good luck!!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

You share credit on this one Dale! I needed a bump and you were the only to say anything.THANKS! Now just crossing our fingers on the next portion of the show.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wish you success!


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Very cool. Gorgeous fish BTW.

-Zeke


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

discus is one of those dream fish of mine... 

i should probably stay away from them though, with my propensity for experimentation...

congrats on the spawn!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I hope to share fry pics with everyone.If I get to I'll tell you all ;"change water"..Not much more to it(well?).


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Congrats! Never heard of a fish using a heater lol. Good thing you have anther in there. Will be awaiting fry pics. Cant wait to watch them grow up!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Discus eggs 24 hours old.About 12 have turned white(a little over 10%).This happened last spawn also so no big deal.
Mom is tending them constantly.Hopefully they hatch tomorrow,late in day/evening.I'll shut filter down tomorrow,put sponges(that are in filter)back in 180 so they stay active,change at least 25% water(possibly lower the level quite a bit) which will boost wc %.Lower water also helps fry find parents.I'll pull a large sponge filter from swordtails 75g tank and give them a new one(they have aquaclear 110 also).
Started infusoria culture today(with broccoli) hope it works.I,ve read to add a very little yeast to culture,so I read a little more and possibly do that tomorrow also. 
I get to send 100 or more swords to LFS Saturday so should be able to clear space if the fry(I hope I get some) can be moved in a week or so.
Should be only 1 day more ,2 at most ,and hopefully I have pics of something new to me to share.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Discus eggs 24 hours old.About 12 have turned white(a little over 10%).This happened last spawn also so no big deal.
> Mom is tending them constantly.Hopefully they hatch tomorrow,late in day/evening.I'll shut filter down tomorrow,put sponges(that are in filter)back in 180 so they stay active,change at least 25% water(possibly lower the level quite a bit) which will boost wc %.Lower water also helps fry find parents.I'll pull a large sponge filter from swordtails 75g tank and give them a new one(they have aquaclear 110 also).
> Started infusoria culture today(with broccoli) hope it works.I,ve read to add a very little yeast to culture,so I read a little more and possibly do that tomorrow also.
> I get to send 100 or more swords to LFS Saturday so should be able to clear space if the fry(I hope I get some) can be moved in a week or so.
> Should be only 1 day more ,2 at most ,and hopefully I have pics of something new to me to share.


Cool, good luck, sounds like you might get a nice Christmas present


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So it seems alot more eggs turned white overnight.Only a few brown remain.Not sure if I'm off schedule,or if parents ate the good eggs leaving only the white(not good).Eitherway I shut filter down and cranked up air.
This is only their second spawn so I,m sure they're still learning(so am I).I 'll watch today and see what comes,but it does not look like a sucessful hatch this time.There were many more white eggs this time(this a.m.) so I'll check water quality and such to see since this is new set up.
Possibly cutting water with RO will be necessary to lower pH,although the kH is around 3-4.
In the 180 comunity my Bold Red Universe male pestered them and made the male very defensive/aggresive.This has been noted to encourage better parental care from a new pair,so possibly a clear divider and 2 other discus could "share" the 120(original plan),and help the new pair perform better.Well it'sChristmas so I hope everyone enjoys the day,and gets or has what they wish for,I'm still very hopeful and happy.I'll test later and monitor to see if any wigglers are in there.There's always next time so no big loss, just a learning curve for fish and I.MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

ok, although probably impossible to see if there was any fry,I decided to turn the main filter back on.I thoroughly searched(bare bottom makes it easy to look up from under) for any fry and found none.There also were none on the parents so I figured it was better to keep the pair healthy and safe than risk bad water and the dangers for maybe a few fry.I had removed about 35-40 gallons so I refilled with my RO/DI and figured I'll adjust the water from here out to possibly get better results.It seemed on day two there were a lot more white eggs than in the 180 before,possibly new tank(water) or I even speculate the heater might have been on for a couple hours right after they layed the eggs.In the 180 they layed the eggs on the overflow which is black and being the heater is black I wonder if they're attracted to dark colors(they say that's how the fry find parent{searching for dark spots}).Anyway they tended the eggs well,and seemed like they removed the white ones by the afternoon,so I'll just wait and hopefully there will be a next time , and try again.
20 days was the time inbetween the last two.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Sounds tricky...is it any easier to breed in a smaller tank as there's less area to search for eggs/fry?

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> ok, although probably impossible to see if there was any fry,I decided to turn the main filter back on.I thoroughly searched(bare bottom makes it easy to look up from under) for any fry and found none.There also were none on the parents so I figured it was better to keep the pair healthy and safe than risk bad water and the dangers for maybe a few fry.I had removed about 35-40 gallons so I refilled with my RO/DI and figured I'll adjust the water from here out to possibly get better results.It seemed on day two there were a lot more white eggs than in the 180 before,possibly new tank(water) or I even speculate the heater might have been on for a couple hours right after they layed the eggs.In the 180 they layed the eggs on the overflow which is black and being the heater is black I wonder if they're attracted to dark colors(they say that's how the fry find parent{searching for dark spots}).Anyway they tended the eggs well,and seemed like they removed the white ones by the afternoon,so I'll just wait and hopefully there will be a next time , and try again.
> 20 days was the time inbetween the last two.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Many breed them in much smaller tanks(29 and up).I may after clearing out 100+ swordtails this weekend move them to the 75g .That would ease keeping track of them and give more grow out room and much more powerful filtration to my showa,painted and kio swords(I have enough of these guys{50-100} to really start focused breeding of them).The bare bottom tank and "hollow "stands I make,really do make it easier to search out anything.Kinda cool looking up at it all also.The discus fry feed off the parent for the first week(they don't swim well)so seeing none on the parents was really the deciding factor,but I thoroughly searched,believe me!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So I'll make a huge guess that the previous eggs didn't hatch out due to heater being on for short time before I noticed them.These fish just don't get it!I woke up this a.m. and EGGS again on the other heater! Most already look discolored,but since I'm still learning I can't be sure.The discus at least seem to have taken well to there new home as the time between eggs was only 1 week this time.I have read they could lay eggs every week for a 15 week cycle twice a year.
I unplugged the heater as soon as I noticed them this a.m.,but who knows.Possibly they're using the heater,as they are in the back behind the pot giving a little "cover".I will monitor them and consider placing a slate in the back sometime before next eggs.
Anyone have a clue?
I've often remarked without failure sucess would not seem so sweet,but these guys are really "building me up",for some excitement(I hope).
The learning continues and I may even try a little methalyne blue on these eggs,I'm not sure if it will make a difference or not.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

You could try partitioning your heater off so they lay their eggs somewhere else


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Actually just thought of covering heater with pvc pipe to prevent this from happenning over and over again.Or I could place acitve heater in sump and then turn on one in tank after they lay eggs and I shut down filter.I really didn't think they would lay eggs again so quickly since they waited 20 days last time.The learning goes on,but I hope to resolve this issue and move on to the part I thought would more diffacult(raising them).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

All eggs have been eaten this a.m. I will now have to work fast on addressing the issues these fish have presented.Traded 150 swords yesterday so they could go to the 75 or maybe even a 55/45 4 footer.I'll figure what I'm going to do taday and post changes.These fish just keep me guessing?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Actually just thought of covering heater with pvc pipe to prevent this from happenning over and over again.Or I could place acitve heater in sump and then turn on one in tank after they lay eggs and I shut down filter.I really didn't think they would lay eggs again so quickly since they waited 20 days last time.The learning goes on,but I hope to resolve this issue and move on to the part I thought would more diffacult(raising them).


Good idea there!! Maybe leave that heater in as well if they have taken a liking to it, expensive piece of slate but wth. Good luck.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK here we go again.Since they don't understand I must be responsible.I have only been using a heater in the sump(one of the plans) and raised temp to 82+.Since they still layed eggs on heater(completely inactive{both in tank this time,as I'm catching on!}) and neither were running and I elavated temp I'm assuming they just like the heater(possibly back to color{black}).all eggs look healthy and mom is tending them.I will feed heavily to help/hope they don't eat eggs(I think they ate last batch since they were bad from heater being on).Should be 48 hrs. to hatch time aprox. so start the clock!
I have hope upon first seeing this clutch of eggs that MAYBE these could be the ones that make it.The tank is a little more mature,the water cut a little with RO(not much change in pH,but used about 30-40 gallons RO).
I'll keep filter running till tomorrow a.m. and change some water tonight.Tomorrow evening I will lower water level and slow the sponge filters,and cross my fingers.Updates to follow,these two are a solid producing pair I need to due my best with and help as much as possible.If this one doesn't pan out I will consider moving them to new 55g and see if that makes difference(gotta try everything and anything,as they're doing their part).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

And so it would appear they ate the eggs last night.I'm not sure if it's the male specifically or not as he seemed to mouthing them heavily last night(the eggs still all looked good).So if they are all eaten I will place a seperator between them and eggs next time.
Challenging?Yes.Still enjoyable?Yes.I feel privaledged either way with these beauties, but the learning curve seems steep.Gonna get this figured out sometime I hope.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Good luck, keep us posted, I am enjoying watching the progress but ready to see some good news.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

All eggs gone! These certainly are not anywhere near as easy as swordtails(still have about 400 after trading 150 last Sat!).I will use some form of seperator next eggs to keep parents from forming a bad habbit(eating eggs).I saw Angelfishusa had a small pair of angels in with their Altums and wonder if some "competition" or reason to act differently would be a more "natural" solution.I always try to see the "bright" side of things and this batch batch of eggs "bright" side was that it was only 6 days this time.This thread(and whole forum{thanks everyone}) really helps me track the behavior and timming of things(not just these discus).I'm hopeful still,although I really thought this batch might be the one,I can only feel lucky(I'd really like to be a little luckier) having this experience.So I'll guess that on the tenth or eleventh I'll be posting pics of the next batch of eggs and the separator I install.The math is playing out for possibly a B -day discus gift,but that would mean two more failures.
Any ideas or suggestions are welcome,I would really enjoy posting fry pics some day.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs seem to be comming quicker than I thought.These were laid this afternoon,only 4 days after last batch.
This is my idea to put around the eggs(on the heater as usaull).It should allow good flow/circulation and keep the parents rom eating them this time.I truely wonder will this be the trick or what could happen I haven't thought of yet?
That's my Tessa smiling in background(very happy daddy is finally home!)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I figured I should leave nothing to chance and placed the cover over the eggs tonight.I'm sure the parents are a little distressed over this but they ate the eggs the next morning last time.So we'll see if this helps or not.If this doesn't work I'll place my dominant bold red universe male in tank with them after this as this may raise their parental gaurd.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

i dont know how much flow you have going over the eggs, but i have often suspected that the amount of circulation they are exposed to plays a big part in egg development. 

take my E. gilbertis for example, they lay their eggs as high in the plants as they can, where, in the spring runoff they are native too, they would get the most flow. having collected them myself, i can tell you that there would be no flow whatsoever at the bottom of the thickets of water weeds where the fish live.

from what i understand, discus come from rivers...

just some armchair theory, but if nothing else works, its worth a shot, right?

your fish could also have fertility problems... although i hope thats not the case.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Dang. Them sure are some egg making discus'!! Makes my head spin! Good luck!! Love the updates. Keep them coming.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

lean and mean egg laying machine!


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

That was quick, good luck on this batch.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Well the gaurd is sucessfully keeping the parents from eating eggs.There are some white ones(no good) ,but for themost part they seem to be developing well.One of my LFS(#2) guys said cichlids are notorius for laying eggs on hard smooth surfaces.He said they will probably never use the slate or terra cotta pot.My other LFS (#1) girl said (although she's more marine oriented,and knows nothing about breeding discus) that sometimes fish consistently eat eggs if they know something is wrong with them.I hope their good.If they don't work out this time(should know when I get home tomorrow night), then I will place my dominant bold red universe male(him and the male of the pair were really at each other in 180) to see if that helps.If the eggs still have problems I'm going to research if I have to leave the pair together or if I can pull the male and leave the bold red universe.I'm not concerned with color or strain I get,I'd just like to get a batch and try to raise them.Just don't want to break up a pair if that's not in their nature.Does anyone know if they pair for life?
And ya, all of you are right with me,4 days blows me away.I read every week ,which I thought was quick,but 4 days is hyper drive.If my swords could adjust their timming like that I'd have about 2000 of them now(maybe that's for the better).Tonight I shut filter down and lower water level and keep my fingers crossed(not afraid to pray either,just want to seem selfish).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So all eggs are still on heater.They seem to be light colored,maybe white.I'm no expert with these fish so I guess I can't say if they're good or not?I will leave them till tomorrow night.The cover/seperator has worked as the parents have not eaten the eggs,but possibly it is to wide(big) as when placed around heater and heater placed back against the wall there is 1-1 1/4 inch of space between it and the eggs.Possibly to much space for parents to fan the eggs.Although the color of the eggs tonight is questionable they do seem to be taking an oval shape(from original round) which is the shape of the fish more.I also read on a Holland discus site last night that they could take 3 days to hatch,so maybe the parents ate them everytime on day two.I also read that discus are Not monogamus so if these eggs don't work out I will fashion a better seperator with less space and would allow more flow(plastic gutter mesh) and give them one more chance.If that does not work I think I'll pull the male and replace him with my dominate bold red universe.The site said given a choice a female discus will choose a similiarly colored male.This leads me to one question and another indication in one of my beliefs.My belief is that animals are NOT color blind and many things in nature seem to indicate this as far as I'm concerned.My question believing my discus is Not color blind is HOW DOES SHE KNOW WHAT COLOR SHE IS?Nature blows me away,I often say when you think you know something well enough to predict it's behavior that is when it proves you wrong!I dig the challenge and will at somepoint have more sucess/luck than I'm getting right now.On a different note,pulled about 75 swordtail fry today of which about 50 were kio,painted or showa.These have been two years of breeding so maybe I'm a little impatient,uneducated,and expecting alot from discus to soon.Rgardless I will continue efforts as long as they let me and will update these eggs tomorrow.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Looks like most eggs are still there, but I'm in no hurry and am realising that I don't have a clue(by my sucess rate with these two).I will leave them till tomorrow night,by then they either should be gone or can probably safely be judged bad.I will keep sump filter off and keep runnong the sponges throughout this time.I will change at least 50% water and replace 75% with RO.I will make a different seperator and hope this plays out again.I see no fry but also know from my experience with longfinned white clouds that fry can be so small they really can be impossible to see(why I won't run sump again for a while).Also stated that the parents will move fry and seeing mother near bottom of heater just makes me wonder?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Well it's about time you updated lol, find myself following this like it's my own tank. Want to be seeing some pics of babies soon!!


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

What's the purpose of the large water change?

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Looks like most eggs are still there, but I'm in no hurry and am realising that I don't have a clue(by my sucess rate with these two).I will leave them till tomorrow night,by then they either should be gone or can probably safely be judged bad.I will keep sump filter off and keep runnong the sponges throughout this time.I will change at least 50% water and replace 75% with RO.I will make a different seperator and hope this plays out again.I see no fry but also know from my experience with longfinned white clouds that fry can be so small they really can be impossible to see(why I won't run sump again for a while).Also stated that the parents will move fry and seeing mother near bottom of heater just makes me wonder?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Discus prefer extremely clean water.While breeding(maybe all the time) they excrete a mucus(the slime the babies feed off of) that really gets all over tank.Many discus breeders actually wipe down the whole tank thoroughly every week.
Regular discus keepers are known to change sometimes over 50% daily.
Discus I' ve come to realise with aquiring larger size and being fed even almost properly(up to 6 times a day) are really almost as filthy(waste makers) as goldfish,oscars and plecos.
Their water has not been changed even a little in 4 days.
and finally it's just my habit to change water for all my fish as often and as much a possible.
It's a falisy that any fish stresses from often or large water changes.Changing water is the best thing you can do for your fish along with feeding properly and housing with appropriate tank mates.
Anyone(I seen post)who says water changes stress fish does not acclimate their water properly.
Also just trying to get more RO into this mix as I need to try anything to help these two have sucess.


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

dalfed said:


> Well it's about time you updated lol, find myself following this like it's my own tank. Want to be seeing some pics of babies soon!!


Same here, enjoying following this one


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Pulled seperater off eggs today and what remained were definately infected with fungas.I'm definately going to increase my RO water % .They seem to be eyeballing the other heater already so I moved the third heater(from sump ) to the bottom of their tank because if one of the heaters on the side is plugged in they'll probably lay on that one!Home early today so going to get right on changing water,as they seem to really keep moving along.Thanks everyone for your interest,I'm really trying to get us all some fry pictures
Vaccumed tank removing about 80 gallons.Replaced about 20 G with RO.Going to keep tank at about 12" deep.Will vaccum another 10 g later this evening and replace with RO.I don't want to substatute the male or move them till I've exhausted all reasonable efforts.
I've always thought trying to do your best is like trying not to lie. So I will do my best;changing water conditions and anything else I am aware of.I realise trying to keep a schedule on these two is diffacult if not random,but the last batch of eggs was 4 days from previous so possibly eggs tomorrow.Broken old record but I need to hurry up with changes(all must be done tonight).Possibly I will not use a separater as I have drastically altered the water chemistry with RO.There is the chance that although they are happy enough to spawn in my regular(tap 7.6pH) water that the eggs still need softer more acid(lower pH) water.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK no fry pics yet, but is next best?
This is a picture of them laying eggs right now!
There are two others in 120 gallery and main photos(site).
The water has been adjusted to 6.6pH and cleaned very well.
I installed a power head with fine filter cleaner taoday to help keep tank clean.
I will leave power head on till tomorrow evening(it's not pointed at the eggs{on heater as usuall}).
Besides the hatch(maybe all on me, but I'm trying) these two are die hard breeders.
I'm watching them and if the eggs aren't fertile then the male is not potent,as by watching them(my first time seeing it) he is right by her side and does not hesitate 5 seconds before going over them.
They really seem synchronised.
The female is in front(top) with male right behind her in picture!
They spent alot of the day hiding behind one of the slates together, but spent the last 1/2 hour cleaning heater.
They even keep cleaning it as they lay the eggs.
Pictures of all the eggs to follow this evening when they're done!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Day one and some of these eggs are white already.Since water chemistry has been altered(6.6pH) and I saw the male right behind the female,doing his job,I'm already leaning towards he is not potent.I can't be sure but if these eggs all go bad or get eaten(possibly because they're bad) I think I will switch males right after this.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Day 2 a.m. most(more than 1/2) the eggs have been eaten and 80% of what is left is white.I really have no clue what is not going right,so I think my only choice to improve chances of actually having fry is to switch males.I will read what I can on discus sites,to see if I'm missing something, but really feel the male is not fertalising the eggs.Possibly it is just fungas on eggs and that's what I'm mostly going to look for.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

All eggs gone this evening so in an attempt to resolve this issue tomorrow I will switch males.I'll be placing my bold red universe in the 120 instead of the male that matches the female.If this works then there should be some very interesting colors to come.If they don't work out I'll have to try treating eggs with either methylene blue or hydrogen peroxide.Well I'll try to post picture of new male tomorrow.
I'll add without my prior experience(all bad) I would think there might be fry(the timming was right.But since the eggs were 1/2 gone this a.m. and what remained didn't look healthy I feel more confident changing males than trying to treat the eggs.If I continue to have the same issue I will move on to treating the eggs.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Latest research says that the male takes longer to mature than female.I knew this(as I read this before),but didn't know that the immature male would still go through all the motions.Most sites say be patient.I am however still going to exchange males tomorrow and maybe give the original a chance again in several months.I just happened to notice the other day that particles of food were stuck to the side of my bold red universe.It was stuck to his slime coat.I have not seen this on the others and since he was very dominant ,and aggressive towards the pair in the 180 I fell confident he is mature.I never even noticed as clearly the slime coat on either of the pair as what I saw on the BRU.So possibly all these efforts have been with a immature male,or actuall beside the defensive posturing between the two in the 180,not 100% sure her mate is a male?He acts like a male but very tough to tell as I didn't even notice the vent on female to compare with the male(I did see his/her vent).It really seemed like he did his thing and being immature is a better thought than impotent.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Ok I didn't change males.I figured if the male matures slower(they say 3 months on average)and that my female has not been laying eggs for 3 months yet(seems like forever to me though).So the pair actually laid eggs on slate today!Possibly a step in the right direction,we'll see.
On the other male ,a note;I noticed that what I would assume was a female (for him,Bold red universe) was cleaning the same spot in 180 the first pair spawned on.I changed 60 gallons and dosed tank with flourish excel,comprehensive supplement and iron(less than full dose) and found the would be female dead the next day My nitrates according to API liquid was a solid 80,but less than 160 considerably(pretty bunk reading I know).So I changed water immediately and tried to pull myself together(haven't lost any existing fish in months).Basically waiting things out and watching water very closely now.
I was considering moving the breeding pair to a new 55g this weekend but with the eggs and all that is on hold now. More to come.
Eggs are on back edge of slate near female in picture.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs remain! Whether they're good or not they were not completely eaten as quickly this time.So besides being laid on slate their duration is another good sign.I have resigned myself to just be patient and give them the time they need.
I may however move them to the 55g as I feel that tank would be fine for them and could use the 120 for "another experiment".
I think I want to put my two marine bettas(comets) and my pair of picaso clown fish in the 120 to see what could come from them.Many people breed clowns so besides there type no big deal,but would be too cool for me.And the comets have been bred in captivity but most people have problems with getting a pair.I have had my two for almost a year now and they were both aquired within 1 week of each other.They only come from one place in the world so (knowing this)I kinda thought I might get lucky when they arrived in my area at two different lfs.One was a little bigger than other(no reported method of sexing) so I figured I should give them a try.They have been together in my 75g reef (tight quaters) for almost a year and seem to get along,or at least they don't mind each other(anyone married?)
I won't change the name of this thread when I move the discus so those of you who follow(thanks for showing interest) can keep track.
The move may happen this week as the 55 is waiting empty and no big deal to move sponge filters and slates.
Hopefully(as usaull) more to come!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So I moved the pair to the 55 today.They seem to be fine and accepting their new place.I moved the potted plants,heater,and slates that were with them so it kinda looks familiar to them.Kinda feel like I kicked them out of the "penthouse" and moved them into a "studio", but I think they will adapt.
I think my angels will be moving in to the 33 long(48x12) under them as they just laid eggs in the 180 tonight(new thread"koi angels breeding")!


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Your like the Fish Pimp


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Pimping with style!I really thought they were going to lay eggs today and even thought it was going to be on flowerpot.I'll admit I watched them for a while ,noticing they were cleaning the flowerpot while I acclimated the angels to the 33L under them.The water is slightly lower in pH about 6.2 as I used straight RO to fill tank yesterday before moving them.The transfer doesn't seem to have phased them too much.Sooner or later I really think the results of these two is going to change and we'll see fry,maybe this time?


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Awesome, didn't take them long in the new tank. Good luck


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I think they layed on day one in the 120 if I remember correctly.This move invovled a 100% water change(totall RO,fresh and new).I moved their slates,heater and the 2 potted plants.If done correctly MASSIVE WATERCHANGES are always GOOD.It's really how my fish grow faster and I feel why they choose to breed.Changing massive water allows fish to be fed as much as you can give them and I really think many try not to feed alot(sorta starve)their fish to avoid proper maintenance.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs after 24 hours.Only 2 were white this am(on the outer edge of egg mass).They ate the bad ones and not the rest yet! During the day a few more seem to turning white but not as many as before.We'll see how this turns out tomorrow.May leave lights on tonight(Susans advice on angel eggs).Sounds like a good idea to provide a more safe feeling for parents.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Left ceiling light on last night(2x60{pretty bright}) but to no avail.All eggs are gone this a.m. .It really seemed like most of the eggs were still amber and viable.Next time tank light on for24/7.The tank does not have a hood so I really thought the ceiling light would be enough.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So they are really like clock work as I now expect and look for eggs every 4 days.I almost wanted to post this a.m. to expect photos today, but thought it bold!
Here they are regardless laying eggs right now.
I need to try something like lights on 24/7 and a newer fashioned seperator this time or I may feel inclined to try artificially hatching these eggs as the last time I don't think that there were that many eggs that were not properly fertalised as most were still amber the night before day 2 ,which is when they will hatch if allowed.
I feel I will lose my mind(if only for 4 days)if these eggs don't make it further than all the others.
So I have a much coarser seperator ready and the willingness to use it.I will install it tomorrow evening,hopefully before they eat them.I will photo the seperator in action then and update with any new news.
HERE'S HOPING!


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

Good luck!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So here is new seperator.It is cheap plastic gutter mesh.Seemed like the perfect application for this product.Lots more flow of water is going to get through this.I pointed the powerhead on the other end of tank more towards them as now the parents won't be able to get to them.There seems to be a few more white eggs this time than last but not too many.Possibly it only seems like more since the parents did not eat the three white eggs first noticed this a.m.
Possibly them not eating the bad eggs is a sign they weren't going to eat them at all this time , but I'll take no chances.
So if they all don't turn white by tomorrow should/could see some fry?
I'll be turning the powerhead off tomorrow late in the morning,as the fry could be hatching in the afternoon(48 hrs.).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

No eggs hatched! Although it seems like this has been going on forever ,I looked back to the original "discus eggs in 180 community" thread and this really all started on 12/03/12.So the male still being immature is a clear option.Reading says 3 months longer for male to mature than female so maybe (if ever with theses two) no sucess will be had till March or so!I'm sure they will continue to lay eggs,and I will be excited every time ,but patience(longer than cycling OMG!) is not even a choice but the avenue these fish lead me.I hope this is just part of the learning curve for them and I.They are getting much larger in their own tank with regular blood worm feeding and I just found frozen beef heart yesterday(listed as best food for discus).
Since losing my "female" bold red universe it seems another female(oddly colored with natural colored spots) has started to befreind the male,possibly another pair to be seperated eventually, we'll see!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So it's been 4 days(since last eggs went bad) and I knowing this particulary looked and suprise,eggs.They seem to be getting more consistent with using the flower pot(yea!)although I'm hard pressed to feel a different outcome will happen sooner or later they'll pull through.I will do nothing to disturb them and just observe.So on the 7th I'll let you all know if they hatched or not.As I said before they are getting really large,the second picture is the "semi-productive" pair in their 55g.So here's our four day fix and I'll just bet that on the 11th I'll post pics of the next batch of eggs?


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> So it's been 4 days(since last eggs went bad) and I knowing this particulary looked and suprise,eggs.They seem to be getting more consistent with using the flower pot(yea!)although I'm hard pressed to feel a different outcome will happen sooner or later they'll pull through.I will do nothing to disturb them and just observe.So on the 7th I'll let you all know if they hatched or not.As I said before they are getting really large,the second picture is the "semi-productive" pair in their 55g.So here's our four day fix and I'll just bet that on the 11th I'll post pics of the next batch of eggs?


Hopefully you'll be posting fry pics before then!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So just a note that eggs still remain! Less than 1/2 are white and many of the amber colored ones are developing oval shape.Every other time they would have been eaten or all look white by now, so we'll see tomorrow.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Finally!I really could barely see with just my eyes, but the first zoomed in pic is what I've been waiting for!There are little fish stuck on that pot!I of course realise that they may not make it a whole lot farther(this time),but a step in the right direction,and a little reassurance for me and the male.
When I noticed eggs were still there yesterday and not being eaten I unplugged the powerhead and turned down the air hoping.So I'll keep my eye on them and see what the parents do with them.I really was starting to wonder if they would ever get this right.I'll try to get pics if I can see them off the pot.Either way more to come with maybe better results.YEA!


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## tcald429 (Dec 17, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Finally!I really could barely see with just my eyes, but the first zoomed in pic is what I've been waiting for!There are little fish stuck on that pot!I of course realise that they may not make it a whole lot farther(this time),but a step in the right direction,and a little reassurance for me and the male.
> When I noticed eggs were still there yesterday and not being eaten I unplugged the powerhead and turned down the air hoping.So I'll keep my eye on them and see what the parents do with them.I really was starting to wonder if they would ever get this right.I'll try to get pics if I can see them off the pot.Either way more to come with maybe better results.YEA!


Awesome, congrats...finally a step forward. Keep the pics coming


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So day 2 and what fry that hatched still seem to be "hanging" in there.I saw the male fanning still yesterday and blow a fry off the pot.He quickly picked fry up(in mouth{no hands!}) and attempted to place back on pot.I couldn't tell if he was sucessful or not but he didn't eat it right away.
Both parents seem to tending the fry but have not removed the bad eggs yet.I wonder if the fry can eat the bacteria of bad eggs or if the parents are still trying to figure out what to do.
Eitherway a pleasant suprise to see them still there today.I have not left light on at night yet,but feel inclined when they are off the pot so the parents can mind them.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Awesome!! Hoping those little fry survive!!

You could have turned this adventure into a reality TV show.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So as of this a.m. I see only two still on the pot.I couldn't find any others but they could be anywhere .
Yesterday I watched the male catch and try to replace fry that "fell" off pot.He was very gentle and dilligent.Some did stick back on pot and some did not.He kept trying as long as he saw where they fell.Once they landed on bottom I had a very hard time seeing them.
So it is possible they could be in the tank(not bellies of parents) and I don't see them. I will observe the parents today and see if they know where they are,I read the parents might move them to a safer spot.
Eitherway seeing some hatch(about 33%) is a major step forward for these two and myself.More to come.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Any news? Spot any more fry yet?


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## Bluebone (Jan 8, 2013)

great!! now i'm all anxious to see more! lol


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## tbub1221 (Nov 1, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> So day 2 and what fry that hatched still seem to be "hanging" in there.I saw the male fanning still yesterday and blow a fry off the pot.He quickly picked fry up(in mouth{no hands!}) and attempted to place back on pot.I couldn't tell if he was sucessful or not but he didn't eat it right away.
> Both parents seem to tending the fry but have not removed the bad eggs yet.I wonder if the fry can eat the bacteria of bad eggs or if the parents are still trying to figure out what to do.
> Eitherway a pleasant suprise to see them still there today.I have not left light on at night yet,but feel inclined when they are off the pot so the parents can mind them.


This is really awesome and exciting for you i know , my rams are starting to try but with no success just yet . Im excited for you really , i know the frustration you were starting to feeling with the eggs .
Congratulations*w3 *W *banana dance .


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I looked very hard yesterday for any fry.They could be behind a slate as the parents were hanging out behind one alot.I don't see any and would think I could have found 1 or so.
I changed water from the tank,not vacumming just to be safe.
If these two fish taught me nothing else I've learned patience.The eggs will hatch and they will raise them when they are ready.All I can do is feed them properly and keep water quality high.
Depending on how the fry affected the parents egg laying schedule, should see next batch of eggs any time now,so we'll see if things keep getting better.
Thanks Everyone!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So seeng no "parental activity" I vacummed tank carefully.It looked like they were doing their thing yesterday and maybe I missed it or they layed eggs this a.m.(I think I missed it since they layed eggs on back side of pot this time).Hoping they only get better at what they're doing and we have some fry pics friday night or saturday.There schedule slowed alittle as far as calander time ,but really seems to be about 4 days after eggs hatched this time.So I'm a little more excited this time.It's hard to see all the eggs ,but it also "seems" they may have been layed in a little tighter cluster this time.So updates tomorrow or sat!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

CAM said:


> You could have turned this adventure into a reality TV show.


So the adventure continues.All eggs are gone this a.m. 
I'll have to guess they were eaten.As of yesterday about 15 out of maybe 100 had turned white.They were grouped tighter and placed only on the top rim of the pot.So I'll also guess that next batch of eggs will be in 4 more days(2/20/13),and I just have to wait and see what's up.
I have to say in the beginning I said I would have liked to see a wiggler or two just to know if this will ever work out so,at least I think I'm waiting for something good to come along now.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Jobe may have been inspired by your patience. As always, thanks for the update!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

CAM said:


> Jobe may have been inspired by your patience. As always, thanks for the update!


Beleive me when I say I have tried to talk some sense into these fish,but if stubborn or non compliant weren't listed in their character I would definately like to add them to the list!
There really doesn't seem to be alot I can do.I have read and even seen how "professional breeders" use others to entice better parental/breeding behavior,but even on the first batch of eggs in December in the 180,having another male with this one really seemed to be a 24/7 battle between them.I don't really feel comfortable trying this in a mere 55g,and would be heartbroken if bad things happened,so I wait.
I truely would like to do something,but can't imagine I have a better plan than the powers to be.I really just want to create more than I have purchased ,as this fits my "put back more than I take" plan I have for everything.IMO this plan is usually very rewarding for more than just myself,but often leads down a road of seemingly no control.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

It certainly seems you are doing all that is humanly possible. While it is easy for me to say, "stay the course", I really hope you do. Imagine the rewarding emotions you'll have when you finally do achieve success. Probably like life-long Cubs fans when those lovable losers finally win a World Series. But I bet it won't take you 100 years. ;-)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

CAM said:


> It certainly seems you are doing all that is humanly possible. While it is easy for me to say, "stay the course", I really hope you do. Imagine the rewarding emotions you'll have when you finally do achieve success. Probably like life-long Cubs fans when those lovable losers finally win a World Series. But I bet it won't take you 100 years. ;-)


The Cubs! It's not that bad yet is it? 
At least you made me laugh .Thanks!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Haha.... good!


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

i dont know how hard it is to raise the fry, but if you ever get to the point where you are getting fry and they arent living, i have some unconventional methods that are doing wonders for me for raising fry. they probably just need time though, being a new pair and all.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So I think they layed the eggs last evenning.I dosed the tank with methylene blue two days ago.Possibly the MB will help the eggs to develope without any fungas(can't be sure previous white eggs were unfertalised or just attacked by fungas).
The parents also switched to a smaller inverted pot this time.
I will do a 10-15 gallon water change today and then leave them alone till we see what the outcome is this time.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Fingers crossed !


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

All eggs gone this a.m.
I'm lost what to do or think.
Possibly these two need to go back in the 180 for a while?
The egg eating is really a bad habbit that may never change without corrective action.
Possibly since any interference on my behalf could not yield worse results I'll remove the eggs and try to artificially hatch them this next time.
Just waiting really seems to be "fruitless".


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

It will be that much sweeter when they come around.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Bummer ! 

Yes, maybe a break from the breeding tank will help. 

Looking forward to the day you announce you have healthy fry !


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I spent today cleaning the breeding tank.I thoroughly scrubbed all surfaces,pots and the slates.I removed all live plants.I read that even the slightest current(from bubblers) could displace some of the sperm,so I moved both sponge filters to the opposite end from the pots and slates.I changed aprox.75% water replaced with new RO with "ro right" added at 1 teaspoon per 5 gallon(this is what I've been using).I did alot of reading on artificially raising fry/eggs, and although this seems fairly simple,I'm not trying to breed "professionally",I am just trying to "sieze" the oppurtunity,and further enjoy my hobby(I kind of feel like the angry golfer who says it relaxes them).I figure that only one of the parents are eating the eggs and from my observation the male tends them much tighter than the female.So if I can catch them in the act and be present soon enough I'm going to seperate the male from the eggs with a divider in the tank and give the female a chance to watch over the eggs without interference.We'll see how it goes .I'm trying to be patient and give it as many chances to "naturally occur " as possible.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

it hasnt really been all that long. i waited for months for my rainwater killies to breed, kept trying different things to help them along. eventually, i gave up and ignore them. i guess they just needed to grow up a bit, since they have been breeding non-stop for the past several months now. 

a watched pot never boils... 

...never thought i would attribute that phrase to a fish.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Auban said:


> it hasnt really been all that long. i waited for months for my rainwater killies to breed, kept trying different things to help them along. eventually, i gave up and ignore them. i guess they just needed to grow up a bit, since they have been breeding non-stop for the past several months now.
> 
> a watched pot never boils...
> 
> ...never thought i would attribute that phrase to a fish.


Think it would be a lil easier if they weren't breeding but to breed that many times with no results is extra frustrating.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks guys.I probably wouldn't be out of my head if they didn't lay eggs every week.I just kinda look in at the angels(right under them in 33 long) and they haven't layed eggs a second time yet.No big deal on the angels, they'll do what they want when they want to.I might feel different if they were laying eggs every week,but for now they don't so it's easy to be patient.Everything I read says they might eat a set of eggs or two and that you shouldn't let them get in the habbit,seperate the eggs or pull parents and artificially hatch.I never even thought I would stand the chance of breeding discus nor did I get them to even attempt it, but they lay eggs like crazy.They're kind of driving me crazy.I told my wife today "sometime I swear I see little bubbles comming from them like they're laughing at me".


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Google Image Result for http://cdn.graphicsfactory.com/clip-art/image_files/image/5/1330915-funny_water_animals_116c.gif


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Keeping a sense of humor definately helps me as I can easily make this seem more serious than it is.It is frustrating just trying to figure out if I'm doing something wrong.
It's very humbling and gives me empathy for all newbs who strugle with "simple" issues like cycling and such.
I guess experience really does make things easier and I still feel like a beginner.A beginner who has kept fish for over 30 years!
Without as much effort as I offer these two fish I have bred;just about all common livebeares(no biggy),many colors of gouramis,long finned white clouds and had the same success with two of my perculas in a 135 about 20 years ago(they layed eggs like 15 times with out ever seeing fry).I am prepping to try to breed my picaso clowns presently so I guess I should be prepared for a greater challenge,possibly these two are just getting me ready for the challenge.
I anticipate I will feel great joy if and when I can share sucess with you all.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

And trust me, after following your thread religiously, many of us will share in your joy along with you!


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

the fact that they keep teasing you does make it so much worse lol

that said, i DO caution you to keep from getting too excited about it everytime you see eggs. the constant emotional rollercoaster would be enough to wear ANYONE out...

im not quite sure what makes them eat their eggs(fertile ones), but i remember talking to a guy who made his living breeding discus in florida(had a big facility set up for it) who told me that they sometimes eat their eggs when they are nervous. to that end, most of their breeder tanks had black cloth covering the front glass most of the time. 

i have never kept discus, but they seem to be a bit on the shy side. maybe something like that will help?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have considered "wrapping " the tank.They are in a very low traffic room(downstairs in the fishroom) not in my main living quaters.I removed the light from their tank and have seriously thought of covering the tank.Seems like a good idea.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Taking Aubans thoughts into consideration(nervous/stressed fish) I can only say that the infamous pair are laying eggs right now on a slate.I shut down powerhead(on opposite end) and will not post pictures as I'm going to try not to stress them in any way.Probably going to put up cardboard on bottom 12" of tank tomorrow when I lower the water level.So lets see if less"paparazzi" helps them at all.
I actually thought in the beginning that the picture taking and flash would have bothered them , but dismissed it as they kept laying through the shoot and on their every 6-7 day schedule.
Willing to try anything,I may still seperate the male to the other end of tank tomorrow also.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

FishFlow said:


> We can't believe you until we see PICS!


I don't need pictures anymore do I?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So I mentioned that I removed the light,when I removed plants.This was in effort to allow them more peace.I lowered the water today and placed carboard on two sides of tank that don't face walls.So now they have total privacy and no outside interference or things to make them nervous.They provide me so many oppurtunities that I will not be seperating the male this time as I would really like to not have to do more than necessary for them.I would really prefer they get all chances to naturally breed,before I impose my foolish will over them.The eggs were still there this a.m.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks for the update, Bandit ! 

*pc


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

hopefully the privacy helps. right now my wife has some wild bettas(moth brooders) that are breeding like mad, but we think one of them swallowed the eggs. if we see a pattern develop, we will probably wrap the tank as well. its too easy a fix to go without trying...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Auban said:


> its too easy a fix to go without trying...


Really does seem simple and plausible.Whether they're nervous or just excited sometimes they get all reved up when they see me.I really think they have personality and are excited in a good way as they don't run or hide when I change water or do maintenance.But they also must have some parental instict that makes them do what they do.
I could have pulled the eggs too many times by now and gone for the numbers ,but that's not what I'm about.Even if they never raise babies they are happy enough to lay eggs more than I would have ever imagined.
Thanks for the suggestion,I really am open to any ideas as being an individual leads to thinking linear(always where my mind goes) and any other veiw is worth trying.I appreciate everyone following this as it helps me just appreciate and enjoy these two.


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## KMoss (May 7, 2011)

can't wait to see if the "privacy" helps the couple..... been following your effort for a while. it'll be sweet when you have fry!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs are gone.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So they should have laid eggs by now ,but none.Possibly the end of their 15 week cycle or they're lit by the isolation.I re-installed a light and just today removed the cardboard that was installed for privacy.I think the privacy was a good idea ,but also think as many discus owners have said that the fish appreciate attention.I will never be sure if they are excited to see me and looking for my attention or are stressed and nervous?I'm pretty good to my fish and feel they do appreciate personal attention(I know some fish don't).
So bummed a little(I'll get over it) that the hyatis between their breeding season seems to be here I'll let everyone know when the next set of eggs show up.
For those(like myself) "jonesing"for fish eggs and breeding attempts my Angels did in fact lay eggs today(they to have cardboard isolation in effect) in the 33 long below the discus.This will be documented(I love this form for keeping track of dates and storing pics)in a angels breeding thread I'll start right now!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm also bummed, Tom. 

If this was the end of their breeding cycle, how much longer until the next one? Is there a cycle or does it begin again whenever..... ?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I've read two 15 week cycles a year.They started on 12/8/12.They deserve and earned a break.Just guessing that they're in recovery mode as they were clock work and are definately off schedule now.
Check out "kio angel breeding journal" hope this ties us all over and fills the gaps!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Got it. Thanks so much for this thread. Even though the results weren't as we all hoped, it was educational and spell-binding.

Will be intently following your next breeding journal. And the next. And.........


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm hoping this break,if it not just a "schedule adjustment", will help the pair mature and come back even stronger,but what do I know?
They do as they will ,I perform no magic or use any techniques not commonly published.This is a hobby and little twist and turns(besides the bad ones) are what make it so enjoyable and inspire me to create better habbitats or try better husbandry.I can't make them breed ,I can only make things as close to what they desire when they do.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The game is on!Came home from work today(brutal) and they are either in process of laying eggs or have laid a few less than usaull.Either way I just gave the 55 a good scrubbing and massive waterchange on Sunday(I change water regulary,but this was totall tank scrubbing and 90-100% water change during the course of the day).I even scrubbed their slates and now I'm glad I have a routine of serious maintenance.I'm willing to look at the WHOLE first breeding seminar as educational for myself and fish, and if this is the beginning of a weekly cycle again ,I'm hoping for better results(from either them or me).So more info soon,yea!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Awesome, Tom ! Will be keeping my fingers crossed that this pair has success soon ! 

*pc


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It appears they laid less eggs than usaull ,but are done laying eggs.Being that they adbruptly stopped in the midst of me figuring anything out,I am prepared and decided to install seperator to keep male away from eggs.It was my thought that he was the one eating the eggs so this ought to tell.
Possibly the spawning was brought on by the massive water change as not all the R.O. added was 84 degrees and cool water changes often act like cool flood water or changing seasons.
Either way making an attempt right away to change the usaull outcome,I think I'll add methylene blue this evening also.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Sooooo..... playing the part of Mother Nature. Succussfully too.... at getting them to breed again so soon. Now time for the other Mother Nature to do her part.... with an assist from her understudy, of course.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So quick update;I seperated the male with eggcrate to 1/2 of the tank and added methylene blue after the eggs were laid.I hours after noticed 2 white eggs (no good).This is not unusaull(for me),but today(this a.m.) all eggs remain except the two bad eggs!It appears the female does indeed understand how to tend the eggs properly as all the other eggs remain a healthy golden color and she only removed the two bad ones.
I'm going to guess that it has been the male all along that got carried away either eating all the eggs or pestering the female to not remove only the bad ones.If things are going right they should hatch this evening I think.I,m not building myself up(to fall off cliff),but do think this is going to go well,so hopefully I have pics of fry on slate tonight or tomorrow a.m.
Here's pic of mom and eggs this a.m. They are on the slate to the right on the font edge.There are less than usaull but they look healthy so I'm happy!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Exciting, Tom!

And the female discus is gorgeous. 

Will be waiting with extreme interest for the next update!


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## Bluebone (Jan 8, 2013)

i'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'd like to thank everyone for their interest and good thoughts.And possibly just a stepping stone in the game;IT'S SHOW TIME!


The dark part in the egg mass is fry.I really couldn't even tell if the eggs were there this a.m. so I got a little flashlight(the circle of light in photos) and low and behold I see little wigglers ,wagging their tails and staying clung to the slate!
Also visable in the photo is 3 more white(no good ) eggs.That makes a true totall of only 5 eggs that went bad out of this batch(not to shabby).So I think if the fry survive and mom does her job(she seems to be doing a grade A+ job so far) ,I have about 1 week before I need to be moving the fry to a nursery tank(thinking a 10 for a week or two,but I'll research what is most appropriate soon).
Again thanks to all,and I'll try to get some better photos(documentation)of how these fry progress.
FINALLY!


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

that wasn't so bad. Congrats


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

YA! Piece of cake! lol.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

YAYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!

*w3


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## KMoss (May 7, 2011)

Awesome news!! The mom is a beauty!


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## KMoss (May 7, 2011)

How to Breed Discus Fish - Presented by AmericanReef.com and Wetpets - YouTube


Cool video I just watched about breeding discus..... You've probably seen this one or similar. This guy is less than an hour from where I live, which is great considering what he stocks.... Not your usual lfs....


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## Bluebone (Jan 8, 2013)

yaaay!! i'm awaiting my ceeegar!!


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Neat video!

Thanks for sharing it!

Zeke



KMoss said:


> How to Breed Discus Fish - Presented by AmericanReef.com and Wetpets - YouTube
> 
> 
> Cool video I just watched about breeding discus..... You've probably seen this one or similar. This guy is less than an hour from where I live, which is great considering what he stocks.... Not your usual lfs....


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Good video,thanks K.The fry are all well and the male is still seperated by eggcrate.I expect they will become free swimming anytime now(video said 3 days).Mom has been doing a great job and I can see their little tails wiggling very quickly(although they're going nowhere).When they become free swimming I will post pics, but for now here's another shot of them on the slate.

Here's a FTS with the male.

I lowered the water so the fry will have an easier time findin mom,when I changed water yesterday(removed 20g added 10G).


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

removing the male: another solution that was just too easy to go without trying. im glad it worked for you! ill have to remember that trick if i ever get into breeding discus.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

so this a.m. the fry were all off the slate.None were on or near mom!I was able to find 3 or 4 on the bottom of the tank and they were alive,but who knows for how long?I will for now assume that some do remain alive somewhere in the tank,but really can't vac out waste now.I'm also not real sure if they will find food or not?
So this went better than all the othertimes,but it still seems some learning for the fish and I is do.
If I see the fry I will post and fr now(maybe a week) I will keep te pair sperated,but when I determine there are no fry I will remove eggcrate and be repared to start over again.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Yesterday I decided there were no fry in tank(I searched with flashlight from under tank{the benefit of no substrate}) ,so decided to pull the eggcrate and change some water.Eggs are on the slate today!It appears they are back in swing and I should have ample oppurtunity to attempt anything reasonable to get some fry.
I guess the eggcrate goes back in and I will pull the fry as soon as the hatch(while still on slate).


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Hoping this is the batch that produce surviving fry, Tom!

Thanks again for sharing the experience with us.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Just playing devil's advocate here but do you think all the egg losses are making you jump in too soon. They have only had one chance with fry and I believe your fry will be better off if they can get some of mommys milk to start.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The very last time they all hatched and stayed on slate for 3 days ,with mom doing an appearently wonderful job of tending them.But on day 3 of being wigglers they left the slate only to go God knows where in a 55g aquarium,with mom doing nothing that I could detect.I did see some fry on bottom the first day,but she payed no attention to them at all.So I figure I have a weekly shot at trying different things then before.I'm fairly sure the parets are "maturing" and gaining better skills,but possibly I could help the fry?Maybe I get the blame on this bunch?
I already sepereated the male today,hoping for a repeat of last times tending and hatching sucess,but not so sure mom will tend the fry?Maybe on day 3 of fry being on slate(if we get there this time) I could let the male back to help with the fry as in previous attempts(the first round) he did tend the fry the one time they hatched.
I just feel like trying something/anything to get better results?


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

nothing else...
you have made it this far, so you could always try raising the fry artificially. its not as great as having the parents do their job, but at least you end up with some surviving.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I would prefer to let all things go natural.I didn't induce breeding unnaturally,and may be a bit impatient,but feel I have given them fair chance.Possibly I will artificially raise one batch(that should be plenty of work) and let them keep practicing,till they come up to speed.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So I know I've mentioned before that as soon as you think you can predict mother nature she will surely prove you wrong.All eggs are gone this a.m.The male was seperated so this only leaves the female as the culprit this time.
Possibly truely ignoring them(besides maintenance to the water) is the best option?They clearly have something going on together and me messing with them may not really be helping.
On a whole different approach,I'm pretty sure that another pair has formed amongst the 7 still in the 180g,and possibly placing them in the 55 with the eggcrate will bring on "a little competition"?
My reading did indicate that the presence of another dominant male can often lead to better parenting habbits.Soooo?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Well eggs again today.It would seem any assistance I offer is of no value so now I will do nothing.Eventually these fish will work it out or never reproduce(which they seem to have a strong urge to).So nature is in charge and will watch.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Like I told a friend at work recently..... 98% of the time man messes with nature, we screw it up. 

I have a female duck that build a nest in one of my flower beds every April. She sits on those eggs for days and days, rarely going off to eat. First year I tried to feed her some bread thinking she must be starving. I apparently seemed a threat to her and she flee off for days. Thought those eggs might die off but the turned out fine in the end.... lucky for me! Never have tried to feed her any year since.

And don't get me started on the great frog experiment in Australia! ;-)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Ya I would have to agree that as a general statement we mess things up more than improve them.Discus have survived and bred long before I got into the mix.For now I try to keep my messing with fish to the other 745 gallons of fish I have(sounds like a BIG waterchange day!{can't go wrong there})


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So left to themselves the two have eaten 80% of the eggs,ironically leaving mostly white infertile ones still on the slate.I'm just pretending I don't know these two anymore.I feed them ,change their water and will hopefully be suprised someday(before I retire) I hope!


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

You would think instinctively they would eat the infertile eggs and leave the healthy ones. Apparently, they don't believe in the theory of Natural Selection.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Maybe its time for an egg tumbler? I am sure eventually they will come around but when lol!!!


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## Bluebone (Jan 8, 2013)

no new updates?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

They seem to be on rest period again,and maybe CAM was right in thinking I tricked them into spawning with cool water changes.If they were in "cycle" I would have expected at least two more failures to report.
I actually thought about this last night and will probly try to get them going again this weekend.They are fine and just hanging out but no more eggs since last report.
Thanks for asking,I would really love to post positive results and pics of fry some day.


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Don't the free swimmers feed off the parents slime for the first two weeks of free-swimming stage? I'll have to re-read some of my research if not!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

They probly would if the parents didn't eat them everytime!


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## williemcd (Jun 23, 2011)

Angels and Discus will consume their efforts the first few times.. some will always do it, some will be great parents on the first get go!.. But, it is imperitive that the fry stay with the parents for the first 2 weeks of free-swimming stage. The parents (both) secrete a slime that is the SOLE source of nourishment to the fry for those two weeks.


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## Sully (Oct 31, 2012)

This was a great read CB. Can't believe I hadn't seen it before today. I've always loved and wanted Discus but I know at this point in time, I just don't have the time to dedicate to them to make them flourish. Someday though. I'll be checking on this thread occassionally to see how things progress.


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> OK I got my new 120 with dual overflows up and running over the weekend.Everything is up to "snuff" the only difference in water quality is tank housing discus now has KH of 3 and new 120 has KH of 4(not a big diff I don't think).I have 2 sponges(6"x3"x3") that are fully cycled(in my 180 for months).My question is ;should I install sponges to new filter(berlinner wd125,running with mag 18) and place fish right in, or install filters and wait a little?My thought is the cycled sponges with no life in tank will lose potency.Should I install sponges and add some ammonia and test to see if they are effective?For the time being this tank will house only two (breeding pair) discus.Eventually if necessary I will divide tank for a second pair as I may have another pair who could breed also(time will tell).I'm in no hurry,just want to do this right and would be heartbroken if I were to lose my fish(because of a mistake I'm responsible for).I understand the cycle,and cycling so I really think they could go right in,but want feed back from others(I value other opinions).


I have discus too so I sympathize with your worry about about the transfer. If you have all your water lines plumbed in so that water changes are a snap, I think the risk is very minimal since you could do 1/4 tank water changes every day if the ammonia levels start to show. However, to be on the safe side, I would first have small fish and any cleaner fish you intend to have in with the discus if they have been fully QT'd or already with your fish for the first week.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Berylla said:


> I have discus too so I sympathize with your worry about about the transfer. If you have all your water lines plumbed in so that water changes are a snap, I think the risk is very minimal since you could do 1/4 tank water changes every day if the ammonia levels start to show. However, to be on the safe side, I would first have small fish and any cleaner fish you intend to have in with the discus if they have been fully QT'd or already with your fish for the first week.


That was in december of last year,they went right in and spawned the next day.I allowed them a month or so before I moved them into a 55g where they still reside today.No sucessfull fry yet ,even though they have probly layed eggs 20+ times(geussing,but they are all documented in thread).


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## Berylla (Mar 4, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> That was in december of last year,they went right in and spawned the next day.I allowed them a month or so before I moved them into a 55g where they still reside today.No sucessfull fry yet ,even though they have probly layed eggs 20+ times(geussing,but they are all documented in thread).


OOps! Glad they did well! Must be frustrating to see then try. Have you checked out Hans' egg hatchery thingy? He can hatch and raise the fry without parents. It looks really cool and something a DIY'er could probably do.

Discus Hans artificial breeding pipe.....................


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Pretty confident I could artificially hatch, but the feeding as williemcd said is really the crucial part of raising fry.They do best if fed from parents.They are on vacation right now as they breed aprox.30 weeks per year.I may try to stimulate them this weekend with cool 100% water change,and then pull fry(still clinging to slate) after they hatch.
These two have taken me beyond average breeding and probly explains my lack of sucess?
I've learned to be patient(as good things come to those who wait),but not afraid to make the right move(oppurtunity knocks but once........SOMETIMES!).
Thanks,
Tom


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Well I did not manipulate them(or at least have sucess) in the begginning of the month so just kept up on w/c and feeding(blood worms frozen).Eggs are on flower pot this a.m.Possibly just a random spawning or they are back to "work".I did scrub entire tank last weekend which has been something I noted doing just before a spawn before.Who knows and I will do nothing but monitor these two and make w/c as scheduled.2-3 days if the eggs are allowed to hatch,or I'll let everyone know if the parents eat eggs still(maybe they have "matured" alittle?).


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## jamnigh (Apr 24, 2013)

I hope they make it this time!!! I'm excited for you!!!!!!!!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

all eggs are still there and only one is white(was white right from the beginning.)Fingers crossed as it seems both parents are caring for the eggs so far.Should (if allowed too) be hatching tomorrow!Did 25% w/c replacing with 50/50 RO/DI and tap.


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## jamnigh (Apr 24, 2013)

Awesome!!!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

As of this evening they have eaten the eggs.I can't help but feel these two will never change and a possible relocation(back to the 180 community)is in their near future!I am a true procastonator on many issues so maybe they get another chance before I "get around to it",but feel they join the othe beauties and be seen more in my 180.We'll see and sorry everyone(again).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs on flowerpot again this a.m. So we will wait and see how long till they eat them(only predicting the consistent doom).I really don't want to give up on them especially if they are in breeding cycle again,but I have little hope for these two doing anything but laying eggs regulary.
We'll see?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Eggs are eaten again,so these guys are comming back up to the 180g.I'll be acclimating them to new water all day today.
The good news is a pair of my GBR have laid eggs in there tank so I think I need to move their tank mates!(all GBR).The other GBRs will go into the 55 this week end,hope I can single out the parents from the other 4.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK here's how it's going down;I've been switching back their tank water since yesterday.Today the tank is very close to my 180.I caught the male and am acclimating him to 180.From the 180 I caught my bold red universe male(who battled with this male in the 180 before being seperated).I will introduce this other male to my very productive female in the 55g.We'll see how this goes?
I kind of was nervous about putting the pair(mostly male) back into a tank where there are ather dominant males so this was my not give up,keep trying approach.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

so same show but new episode.There are eggs today on slate.Here's hoping that with the new male there will be different,or better results.
The original male has adjusted to his life in the 180 just fine and it would seem clear that the bold red universe is "all good" in the 55 with the female.
We'll see?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So kind of suprised,but eggs are gone this a.m.(eaten I'll assume).
I have no immediate need for this tank so I'll give these two some time to see if they get it right,but it would seem raising discus is not in my future.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

before you give up, why not try artificially raising some? i know its more rewarding to see the fish do everything as nature intended, but its not easy to raise discuss fry without their parents, and you have nothing to lose. 

raising them artificially would be quite a challenge. with your level of devotion, i think your up to it.


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

I saw your pics. Good for you trying to raise them. They are beautiful fish. How do you keep the plants in the flower pots? Are those just rocks in them? Great idea with no gravel in the bottom of the tank and your water is so clear!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks Auban possibly I'll give it a shot?
snowghost the plants are in seachem flourite? They seem to do fine in the pots and when trying to raise fry it is usaully easier in bare bottom tanks.Many keep their discus bare bottom regardless due to them liking very clean water.It's kind of funny you say how clear the water is as when I switched the males I had to change the pH for 2 days to get it close to my 180,and then switch it back to 100% RO.Since that I've been dealing with green water in the discus 55.I change massive water(would anyways) but that doesn't help ,so I'm lights out for next coule days to see if it will help.
I also moved the plants into a 20Tall with my apistos.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

So the new pair is not as"productive" as the original pair.Being such a beautiful fish I have decided to move them up to the 180G and just enjoy watching them for a while.Possibly in time the original pair will get their act together/or spawn regulary in the 180 and I will try them again.But for now I really think they will be happier in the 180 with their other friends!I think I'm going to move my pearl gouramis into the 55 as I ended up with a pair.Or put the pearls in a 20Xtra tall(same foot print as 10G) and save the 55 for GBR fry!I have GBR eggs right now in one of my two tanks with GBR pairs.We'll have to see if the fry make it?If they do then the 55 would be a great grow out for them!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The pair were moved back to the 55gl last week.To shake things up they are not alone in the 55gl.Now they have my two large female kio angels(moved so 4 new{smaller} could catch up) and my odd male gbr as the other 4 are in seperate breeding tanks.
So they laid eggs last night and seem to be gaurding them well while the angels hang out on other end of tank.The ram really seems to be a ghost to others in tank and they pay no attention to him at all.Maybe with the addad stress they will do better? We'll see,I just can't watch them lay eggs every week and not do anything.Fingers crossed!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Short lived effort as all eggs are gone this am!These two really make my head spin!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

And a follow up on these fish.The male died about 4 months ago,and even lost his substatute that I tried.But there always seems to another male to the others place and again with the original female I have discuc eggs in the 180.As I mentioned in the kio angel thread I got nowhere to place these guys for any official breeding effort so this is just brief update.Both the discus and angels laid eggs in the 180 today! Go figure how they timed this ,but they were both laying eggs at the same time on opposite ends of the tank.Maybe some day I'll try with these guys again,but having too much fun and sucess with the GBR and apistos.


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