# Nitrates good or bad?



## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

So I thought if I had a cycled tank that it should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates. Last time I did a water test I had 0 ammonia, 1 nitrites, and 20 nitrates. I thought that was right on except for the nitrites so I did a small water change. I was also due for my filter to be changed so i changed that too.

Now my question is that I just did a water test and change, my ammonia was 0, 1 nitrates and 20 nitrates. Now my nitrates is 0 again. 

I thought I was suppose to keep nitrates? Did they dissapear because of the filter change?


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm a little confused.... Nitrates don't disappear, they build up.

Has your tank been cycled? Fishless or with fish? And how long did it cycle for?

As for "time to change the filter," You really don't need to change the media. The sponges and biomax can just be rinsed in the dirty fish change water and put back into the filter. You only need to change them if they are falling apart or not keeping their shape. I haven't changed mine in over a year. The carbon needs to be changed once a month - if you use carbon. As for cleaning the filter, I clean my impeller and intake tubing once every month or two just to keep them running smoothly. 

Changing the media too often or all at once, can cause the tank to go through mini cycles.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Well he changed out his fitler material by the sounds of it, so if it was in cycle its starting all over again. Once you removed the filter media, you also removed good bacteria. You don't need to replace it. Just rinse out in tank water in a bucket.


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## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

Huh....The filter box says to replace them every 3-4 weeks...so that is innacurate? Wish I would have known that before I screwed up my tank.

The tank (29 gallon) was on it's final stages of cycling, until i did that i guess.

They are carbon filters. I am using the marineland penguin 250 with bio-wheel. How do you just replace the carbon? When I look at the filter the carbon and the fliter are are pieced together. Do I take it apart to refill the carbon?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

is the carbon on a sponge type thing? if so go get yourself some other sponge and cut to size and use that. carbon imo is totally useless unless you wana get rid of meds, bad smells etc. if the carbon is little balls or rocks then repalce with bio media.


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## NeonShark666 (Dec 13, 2010)

Nitrates do not go away in an aquarium without water changes. The path for Nitrates is: Ammonie>Nitrites>Nitrates. In the natural world Nitrates are removed by Aquatic Plants. In an aquarium there is too much Nitrate production (over feeding, crowded fish populations, fish deaths) for plants to keep up.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Simplestmind said:


> So I thought if I had a cycled tank that it should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates. Last time I did a water test I had 0 ammonia, 1 nitrites, and 20 nitrates. I thought that was right on except for the nitrites so I did a small water change. I was also due for my filter to be changed so i changed that too.
> 
> Now my question is that I just did a water test and change, my ammonia was 0, 1 nitrates and 20 nitrates. Now my nitrates is 0 again.
> 
> I thought I was suppose to keep nitrates? Did they dissapear because of the filter change?


sure is confusing isn't it?

First: home hobby test kits are not all the accurate or reliable.

Secondly, in any measurment/observation there will be some that are just plain wrong.

thirdly the ammonia->nitrItes->nitrate sequence is for aerobic bacteria only.

there are many things going on in our tanks other then aerobic bacteria. For instance in a planted tank with some organics (substrate, peat, drivewood) it is expected that you will get low to no ammonia, nitrItes but immediate nitrates. Then as aerobic bacteria build up the nitrates go down. usually after a few weeks.

still all on all just my.

.02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

NeonShark666 said:


> Nitrates do not go away in an aquarium without water changes. The path for Nitrates is: Ammonie>Nitrites>Nitrates. In the natural world Nitrates are removed by Aquatic Plants. In an aquarium there is too much Nitrate production (over feeding, crowded fish populations, fish deaths) for plants to keep up.


I repectifully disagree.

I have had many tank over the years with very heavy bioload and both fw and marine. After the initial "cycle" the should and usually did have unmeasureable nitrates. And usually phosphates as well. *old dude


my .02


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## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

It is confusing and I feel mildly stupid...

I even bought a 6 pack of filters so I could change them every month, guess I won't be needing those for awhile.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I repectifully disagree.
> 
> I have had many tank over the years with very heavy bioload and both fw and marine. After the initial "cycle" the *should* and usually did have unmeasureable nitrates. And usually phosphates as well. *old dude
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree with your use of "should". A planted tank should NOT have zero nitrates. Otherwise, plant health is potentially compromised. It can get there, sure. But, your plants will show it.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Simplestmind said:


> It is confusing and I feel mildly stupid...
> 
> I even bought a 6 pack of filters so I could change them every month, guess I won't be needing those for awhile.



yep it is confusing.

But you shouldn't feel even mildly stupid. 

Aquariums like everything else in the world are very complex and not fully understood systems. Even people who have studied aquariums, have PHDs, and in controlled scientific conditions will readily admit they don't know everything.

sound to me like you were just a little ignorant like all those more experienced people. but not stupid in any way. 

As to the filters sorry but I can't help. I just let the plants filter my tanks.


But that's just me and my.


*old dude

.02


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

And what experienced people are you calling ignorant? I haven't seen any of those here. If your calling people here that, be prepared for arguements that will have a bad ending.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

*stumbles in and throws whiskey bottle down* 

Who'r yuu calln inorgant???? 


Seriously though I wish I could get 0 nitrates.

Simplestmind, just a heads up, once you're through with your filters, a buddy gave me a heads up that you can go to Wal-mart and get "poly-fill" for pillows, and use that. It's only about $8 for a bag that will last you a year or better. - Nereus


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ohh yea an not olly yat *points finger purposfully, but not at anyone directly*




Ig·no·rant
   [ig-ner-uhnt] 
adjective 
1. 
lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 

2. 
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 

3. 
uninformed; unaware. 

4. 
due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant 


...that's propper usage of the word ignorant, used without disrespect. I'd hate to be subject to a scientist, or worse a doctor, that denies said term.

*passes out*


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

*stirr's awake* I was onilaly holding the tail...!! dude wait, what? ...oh

Hey holly12, couldn't help but notice the home-made C02 bottles inbetween your planted tanks. Being that they're looking as good as they do, what's your recipe for your mixture/schedule/etc. Looks like you're doing a good job on them  - Nereus


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Ignorant....*r2 If he only knew....


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

What do you mean?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Its like the pot is calling the kettle black


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> yep it is confusing.
> 
> But you shouldn't feel even mildly stupid.
> 
> ...


I dont respectively disagree with you..i completely disagree with you..i am experienced so are you calling me ignorant?? if so i will call you out on it..i have never ever seen one of your tanks..not really sure i want to and i definitely wouldnt want to see your saltwater tank..from now on use your words carefully..I for one are really getting tired of your nonsense..

To the orginal poster..let your tank cycle the rest of the way..rinse your filters in old tank water in a bucket..achieve a 0 ammonia..0 nitrites..and shoot for around 20 nitrates if you have a planted tank..by the time you do your next water change your nitrates should go up

Rick


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

Personal threats? Really? The dude is asking about nitrates.. ideally you would wany anything under 40 ppm, if you had 20ppm your golden, but it sounds like you have to start over which sucks but just do what you did last time and you should be alright.

Edit- unless you built your tank exactly like bobs then personally I wouldn't even pay attention to his advice as most of it won't work in the majority of our tanks.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> I repectifully disagree.
> 
> I have had many tank over the years with very heavy bioload and both fw and marine. After the initial "cycle" the should and usually did have unmeasureable nitrates. And usually phosphates as well. *old dude
> 
> ...


*
WHAT?????!!!!!!!! YOU ARE KIDDIN ME RIGHT!!!!!!*


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nereus7 said:


> *stumbles in and throws whiskey bottle down*
> 
> Who'r yuu calln inorgant????
> 
> ...


*ROFL*
*r2*r2*r2*r2*r2


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Ok, now i get to throw my dumb thoughts in this. You don't really need to run the carbon in those cartridges once the 4-6 weeks is up and its used up, cut open the back and remove the carbon, done deal. You can run the carbon when you need to clena up or polish the water, when you like. But, once the BIO WHEEL gets its load going, yoiu can take those cartridges out and rinse them out with a hose, but until then, your 4-6 week period you should leave all media alone, unless it gets clogged up, you want that media saturated with life before messing with them, and before your bio-wheels have time to team with life. Nitrate under 40 in a FW tank is el perfecto, no need for worries there.Trites and Ammonia are the bad ones like you thought.


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Nereus7 - Thanks for the compliment! 

Yep, that's home made CO2. I got the recipe from some people on the site. Here's the link they gave me: Aquatic Eden: DIY CO2 Recipe: Duration vs. Intensity - Aquascaping Aquarium Blog

I have one bottle on my 20g and 2 on my 36g (although the second one on the bigger tank has a leak I think... I need to fix it.) I could probably put another on each tank, but for now they look good. Hope this helps.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Simplestmind said:


> So I thought if I had a cycled tank that it should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates. Last time I did a water test I had 0 ammonia, 1 nitrites, and 20 nitrates. I thought that was right on except for the nitrites so I did a small water change. I was also due for my filter to be changed so i changed that too.
> 
> Now my question is that I just did a water test and change, my ammonia was 0, 1 nitrates and 20 nitrates. Now my nitrates is 0 again.
> 
> I thought I was suppose to keep nitrates? Did they dissapear because of the filter change?


Please excuse the slight feud going on between members that doesn't really have anything to do with your questions. Some people like to throw around controversial statements and other people like to pick fights over them. Usually you will find this a friendly and helpful place and the members have a lot of experience. Getting back to your question, I'm sure we can help you work it out in quite a simple way. 

My first question is: Do you have live plants?


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## gar1948 (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm not a fan of the bio wheel. They are very overrated. They filter but the wheel doesn't add much to the process. I found they produce higher levels of nitrates. Under 40 ppm's is ok. If you add plants they will go a long way in keeping the nitrates lower. Most fish are pretty tolerant of nitrates.


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## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

snail said:


> Please excuse the slight feud going on between members that doesn't really have anything to do with your questions. Some people like to throw around controversial statements and other people like to pick fights over them. Usually you will find this a friendly and helpful place and the members have a lot of experience. Getting back to your question, I'm sure we can help you work it out in quite a simple way.
> 
> My first question is: Do you have live plants?


The fighting between these certain people seem to be a common thing on this forum...

Anyways,
Yes I do, not a lot but I have two potted dwarf grass plants and a camboda (i think that is the name).


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## gar1948 (Jan 25, 2012)

I agree about the fighting. To be honest I'm getting a little tired of reading through personal arguments and not about the hobby. Could some of you reel in your egos a bit and get back to aquriums? Just my opinion.


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## whitetiger61 (Aug 2, 2011)

Simplestmind said:


> The fighting between these certain people seem to be a common thing on this forum...
> 
> Anyways,
> Yes I do, not a lot but I have two potted dwarf grass plants and a camboda (i think that is the name).


Just on one aspect..keeping a healthly fish tank..that is our number 1 purpose for being here ..if we cant help you this forum might as well not be here..so when we see someone giving bad advise we tend to get a little upset 

Rick


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Okay so I'll break down your original question


Simplestmind said:


> So I thought if I had a cycled tank that it should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates.


Yes that is right. Once the tank is cycled ammonia and nitrites are consumed by bacteria. Nitrates are what is left by the bacteria, they are usually controlled by water changes but also consumed by live plants.



> Last time I did a water test I had 0 ammonia, 1 nitrites, and 20 nitrates. I thought that was right on except for the nitrites so I did a small water change.


This seems normal for near the end of the cycle. With a fishless cycle you don't need to change water, just let it work through. Sometimes the nitrites hang on for a while in the last stage of the cycle. If there are fish in the tank try to keep ammonia and nitrites under 1ppm through water changes like you did.

Even once the tank is cycled it takes a while for it to be an established tank. Adding fish too quickly or overfeeding tends to cause small ammonia/nitrite spikes or a 'mini cycle' while the bacteria catch up.

Constant readings of ammonia or nitrites after the tank is cycled is bad and a sign of over stocking, overfeeding or under filteration. Most of us have had the occasional reading from a dead fish, changing too much filter media etc, sometimes it indicates an adjustment in feeding or maintenance is needed but is usually not a big deal if the reading is under 1ppm and goes away quickly.



> I was also due for my filter to be changed so i changed that too.


Yeah that wasn't a good idea. Did you change all the filter media? I don't know why the manufacturers tell you to do that... just to make money I guess. As others have said get some more filter media in there and then just rinse it out in old tank water when it needs it. If old filter media does need replacing try not to do more than 1/2 at a time. Hopefully you have enough bacteria in the substrate etc of the tank not to have to go through a full cycle again but it will likely set you back somewhat.



> Now my question is that I just did a water test and change, my ammonia was 0, 1 nitrates and 20 nitrates. Now my nitrates is 0 again.


How long was it between testing Nitrates? If you tested just before the water change and the nitrites were 20, then just after and they were 0 it must be a false reading. Nitrates will go down by the amount of water changed. So if you have a reading of 20 and change 50% of the water and test again the reading should be 10. 



> I thought I was suppose to keep nitrates?


Most people have a nitrate reading in their tank once it is cycled. Nitrates are not good for fish but are okay in low amounts so like you said the aim is to keep them under about 40ppm. Plants like nitrates so people with planted tanks often want some nitrates. I have had heavily planted low tech tanks with a 0 nitrate reading. The plants were healthy, but slow growing so the balance seemed to work out. I would not have guessed the plants you had were enough to get to 0 nitrates but maybe there were other factors involved. An unplanted tank will always have Nitrates. 



> Did they dissapear because of the filter change?


The nitrates that were in the water would not go away because of the filter change but if you remove the bacteria they will not be converting more nitrites into nitrates. So the reading should not get lower but it could stop it going up. If there was some time between testing the plants would have consumed some nitrates and the water change lowered it some so it may have been all those factors combined. Still I would test again to see if you just got a fluke reading. What are you using to test with? The strip style tests have a reputation of not being very reliable, the liquid tests are better. Also check that the date hasn't expired.


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## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

I don't think the tank was fully cycled when I put fish in it, but I did keep up with the testing and water changes.

I have a 29 gallon tank with fish (glofish/danios) and a bristlenose pleco. I tested the nitrates the day of the filter and water change (did about 25%) and that was when I was getting the nitrate reading. A couple days later I did another water test to make sure all was good and my nitrates were 0. That is why I suspected that changing the filter caused my nitrates to drop to 0. 

I don't know why it says on the box to change the filters every 4 weeks, but obviously they don't care about the tanks and just want to see you stuff. I am dissapointed in that.

I am using an api freshwater tester. I just bought it about 2 months ago so it should still be good.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Ok, I will say this, there isn't any argueing going on in this thread, but when one person comes along as says that these experienced people are ignorant, basically saying not to listen to them, do you honestly think that is giving a good impression? 

I was the first person to ask him who he was calling ignorant. I posted on the thread before that statement was made and it did irk me as I have been keeping fish for more than 30 years, and yes I will defend myself when called that. Or do you think I should have just banned him?


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

First off, Im gonna go and get me a bowl of frosted flakes so I can bring out the tiger in me...Get'm Rick!!!

Second Susan, I don't think the "ignorant" statement was applied to anyone here as much as it was scientists in lab coats, I may be wrong whatever, we're all born not knowing much so, it's a process. Ignorant was used correctly, and not in an insulting manner, I may be wrong. 

And now for sort of a 'thread hijack'.. Beaslbob, whats up. You said you run saltwater in the same manner you run your puddle tanks? Give me a heads up on the mechanics (or lack of...get it?? haha...anyways) cuz as far as I know, some of these things are mandatory for your critters to "thrive" with a smile, and not just "exist" like they're locked up for 10-20. Honestly enlighten me if you will, I appreciate it. Thanks..

(ps, Thanks for the link Holly, I'm going to try and see if I can one of those up and running and see what happens. Ironically enough, it'll be for a beaslbobish tank I'd like to make for a self sustaining supply of snails for my botia. We'll see what happens  )


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry Susan, I wasn't trying to get at you, I think you are one of the most level headed and mature members on here, we need you around to keep the peace . Of course I'm not saying you should let anyone insult you. I don't actually think that Bob was talking to you at all. The OP had said they felt stupid and I think Bob was just saying that no one knows every thing. His grammar, punctuation and paragraphs were a bit off so it's hard to follow but he seems to have been talking about people with PHDs that have studied aquariums, not you or the other posters on this thread. 

You just happened to end up in the middle of this one but my real problem started well before you questioned being called ignorant. Any time Bob says anything it starts getting ripped apart whether it has merit or not. The discussions could be interesting if they were about learning but no one seems to want to learn and the resulting torrent of off topic bold blanket statements and subtle jabs just gets in the way of anyone learning anything, especially the OP. Don't get me wrong I don't agree with all of Bob's methods either and we all get off topic sometimes but this is getting a bit much. Whatever you call it, it tends to startle new members and get tiresome to old ones.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Well said snail. +10 for snail. 

I too have noticed a tendency for "certains" to almost wait in the shadows for Bob to speak in order to pounce. Being that there's as many "traditional" people apart of this forum as there is, within a matter of hours someone will come along and correct any "non-traditional" techniques that my be offered by someone "non-traditional". 

That said, anyone getting a rise from a forum, needs some real problems in their life... that's all I'm saying, have fun, be stupid (or ignorant) and just have fun..

As far as banning bob, I vote a big NO.. I'm not down with the censorship in any form. I, Nereus, Have Spoken*old dude


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nereus7 said:


> First off, Im gonna go and get me a bowl of frosted flakes so I can bring out the tiger in me...Get'm Rick!!!
> 
> Second Susan, I don't think the "ignorant" statement was applied to anyone here as much as it was scientists in lab coats, I may be wrong whatever, we're all born not knowing much so, it's a process. Ignorant was used correctly, and not in an insulting manner, I may be wrong.
> 
> ...


Oh, I like this guy!!! WE gotta keep him around.!!!!!*w3*w3*w3


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I understand what you guys are saying, but you have to admit, a lot of Bobs statements are intending to cause strife. And as I said if that was what he intended the ending won't be very good.
As everyone well knows Bob uses the advantage of trying to convert new members over to his way which is not good for beginners in the first place. Secondly I have seen pics of Bobs tanks, the tanks look dirty, plants are not healthy and so on and so forth. You have never heard of Bob having heathy enough plants to need trimming. 
Anyone can keep a swamp tank that he does, but its not the best way in the world for a new person to learn how to keep a healthy tank.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

susankat said:


> I was the first person to ask him who he was calling ignorant. I posted on the thread before that statement was made and it did irk me as I have been keeping fish for more than 30 years, and yes I will defend myself when called that. *Or do you think I should have just banned him*?


none4none4none4none4


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Just don't feed into is Susan, and he won't get his jollies, if that actually is his agenda.

Like it's been said, Bob's photos speak for themselves

Just like BBradburys, and Holly12's do. Put them side by side and we can see what's up. It's all good 


I still don't think he should be banned btw. Like snail said, even if we learn what not to do, we're still learning


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you are referring to what Bob says and anything I may say in response, I am NOT going to just let things go by that are flat out wrong and misleading newbies. It's not about keeping the peace, it's about keeping the info correct. Opinion based stuff is one thing, posting things about your tanks as if it happens in everyone's tanks and the way things happen in aquariums is another. 

If you don't like that...sorry. Move on and don't read them.

As far as what Bob meant....like in other times it will be up to you to speculate and talk about. He will never come here and apologize for being taken out of context or otherwise.....to clear the air. Because he is like that and Snail always tries and interpret for him.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Being that there's as many "traditional" people a part of this forum as there is, within a matter of hours someone will come along and correct any "non-traditional" techniques that my be offered by someone "non-traditional". 


Do what you came to do  I have your back, in you correcting what you believe needs corrected - Nereus


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

beaslbob said:


> yep it is confusing.
> 
> But you shouldn't feel even mildly stupid.
> 
> ...




Hey guys and gals.

my statement was aimed at making the original poster feel better.

in much the same vain as the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Obviously I was ignorant of the flames that would follow.

I hope the OP does feel better.

After all I and everyone else is ignorate of at least one thing

like the flames that would follow my feeble efforts to encourage a newbe.

noone on this forum is stupid.

Still just my

.02


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

See? No harm no foul.

Hey besal can you elaborate on how you incorporate your low maintainence techniques into your keeping of saltwater tanks? I'm familiar with how you represent them applied to sweet water from previous threads, I'm intrigued as to how you apply it to the salt water. Thanks bud - Nereus

(maybe we should start a new thread, this one's getting alittle all over the place)


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Nereus7 said:


> See? No harm no foul.
> 
> Hey besal can you elaborate on how you incorporate your low maintainence techniques into your keeping of saltwater tanks? I'm familiar with how you represent them applied to sweet water from previous threads, I'm intrigued as to how you apply it to the salt water. Thanks bud - Nereus
> 
> (maybe we should start a new thread, this one's getting alittle all over the place)


Sure

see:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f18/mythoughts-marine-tanks-low-maint-otherwise-38231.html#post187948


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## Simplestmind (May 30, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> Hey guys and gals.
> 
> my statement was aimed at making the original poster feel better.
> 
> in much the same vain as the only dumb question is the one not asked.


Thanks Beaslbob. Everyone here is very friendly even if you guys do have a difference of opinion. I always appreciate the input from everyone.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> If you are referring to what Bob says and anything I may say in response, I am NOT going to just let things go by that are flat out wrong and misleading newbies. It's not about keeping the peace, it's about keeping the info correct. Opinion based stuff is one thing, posting things about your tanks as if it happens in everyone's tanks and the way things happen in aquariums is another.
> 
> If you don't like that...sorry. Move on and don't read them.
> 
> As far as what Bob meant....like in other times it will be up to you to speculate and talk about. He will never come here and apologize for being taken out of context or otherwise.....to clear the air. Because he is like that and Snail always tries and interpret for him.


jrman83 - sorry if my 'interpretation' upsets you. I have like you only said what I thought to be true. For me what makes a forum like this interesting is that people from all different backgrounds, personalities and fish keeping methods join in. I feel that it is worth making an effort to understand what others are saying even if I don't agree with it all. I find some of what Bob has to say interesting, I don't agree with a lot of it. Recently though I've stayed away from saying anything in disputes between Bob and anyone else because the more people that join in the more it gets in the way of the original question being answered. I only 'interpreted' in this post out of respect for Susan. 

I get what you are saying about "Move on and don't read them". Plenty of times I do but sometimes I am interested in the original topic or want to help answer the OP's question, at times the only way of doing that is to wade through two pages of off topic debate. I'm not saying you should let things go by that are wrong but engaging in long controversial off topic discussions about water chemistry in the middle of posts on simple questions doesn't really help. Several times I've suggested someone starts another thread on the subject, that way a link could be posted and those who are interested can continue reading. I myself would be interested in a *real* discussion on the some of the topics being disputed but it just kind of feels like 'facts' are being shouted without anyone listening or learning. In the past I tried to join in on a topic I found interesting with a genuine question or comment but it just seemed to be drowned out with all the 'shouting' going on. Real or not I'm not sure that 'newbie' posts are the place for these discussions.

I don't believe in banning people for having different ideas but I'm getting to the point where I don't care who gets banned, if no one can find a solution I'll leave myself. I use this forum because it has a friendly and respectful spirit if Bob can manage to get everyone riled up enough to ruin that spirit I'll go somewhere else. I'm not trying to make a dramatic exit and I'll probably come back in a few months but these Bob wars need time to settle.

Simplestmind- sorry for taking over you post. I hope we managed to help you with your issues, please say if you need more help.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Snail - would take a lot more than that to upset me.

Sorry that disputes over beaslisms bother you but as long as he continues to post bad info, they will always be present here. Opinionated ideas, like the way he runs his tanks vs the way someone like me or you would, are one thing.....but, when he post about things that are "factually" and scientifically wrong I can't help but protest. Things like plants causing high ph in tanks....something that absolutely nobody else on here has stated it occurs with their tanks and numerous others say it doesn't happen with theirs and yet, he continues to do things like recommend plants to someone with a bottomed out ph to fix their problem. Or, that ph is just a factor of how much CO2 is in your water. There's been more. These are not opinions but someone that has been ideal-bound for so long by what they see in their own tanks, all based off of their extreme conditions compared to a traditional tank, that they believe it occurs in all tanks and they are not able to break out of their own self-imposed paradigm. 

You also have to notice his target audience. Many people have mentioned this in the past There is a reason why he starts his beasl threads in the "new to" section (although I believed moved by a moderator). Therefore you can see the importance of countering it if it will only lead someone astray. Not to mention all the guests that come to the site.

As far as banning goes, if he were to be banned it wouldn't be because he had a different opinion. It would be from doing what I mentioned above or recommending things dangerous to fishkeeping. He himself, has said numerous times that it is great for him to have a place that he can discuss his ideas....without being banned. There has to be something to the fact that he has been banned from nearly every forum regarding aquariums...places where he actually post of course. He was banned for posting the same stuff he does here. However, the moderating style on those sites is much more strict than here. This is a light-touch forum.

To the OP, sorry for getting so far off your topic.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

lol, Maybe we could just have an automatic post after all his posts that say "Beaslbob uses controversial methods and most members of this forum disagree with them" like that no one would have to get into arguments .


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

lol, a warning lable for beasle. That's awesome. I suggest nobody leave, nobody get's banned, and we all group hug and have a good cry. Then start afresh.

I'll just mention, in the previous "chaos" it was brought to my attention that Mollys actually do better in brackish or even saltwater than FW. EVERY lfs I go to around here has them straight up FW! I am a better person because of this discussion. A silver lining... With that said, I think this thread is pretty much exhausted so, I'll see ya'll in the next one, peace.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nereus7 said:


> lol, a warning lable for beasle. That's awesome. I suggest nobody leave, nobody get's banned, and we all group hug and have a good cry. Then start afresh.
> 
> I'll just mention, in the previous "chaos" it was brought to my attention that Mollys actually do better in brackish or even saltwater than FW. EVERY lfs I go to around here has them straight up FW! I am a better person because of this discussion. A silver lining... With that said, I think this thread is pretty much exhausted so, I'll see ya'll in the next one, peace.


*rotating smile


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Nereus7 - No problem! As for the actual unit itself, Susankat told me how to make mine. (In case you need any ideas for building.)


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