# Sand



## chc36 (Apr 9, 2011)

So I'm sure its been asked before but I'm looking to change from gravel to sand for my substrate (got a new gold dojo loach that likes to dig) and I'm suspicious to spend 30+ dollars just for some "aquarium sand", does play sand work as well or is their something besides conditioner thats mixed in that makes aquarium sand special?


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Aquarium sand "Live sand" for reef tanks is calcium carbonate (aragonite?) based. Which buffers pH above 8.0 or so.

For all my tanks both FW and Marine I just play sand from home depot/lowes that costs $3 for a 50 pound bag.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I've heard that pool filter sand is much cleaner than play sand, and is very chemically stable. If I were to go with a sand bottom, that's what I would use. Play sand is great and cheap, but it needs a LOT of cleaning otherwise it'll cloud up your tank pretty easily.


----------



## ReStart (Jan 3, 2011)

I couldn't fine the pool filter sand for part of my Cichlid substrate so I got two bags of plays sand. I must have used 3000 gallons of water cleaning that stuff and two hours of my time, stirring and moving and pouring, over and over, let me cry you a river. I HATED it, it was so much trouble. Once I had the first batch clean, I put in the tank, a 55 that is actually 49.84 from measurments. Then, with anger in my heart, I went to Petsmart and bought a bag Carrib Sea Cichlid substate for $25.00 ?? I think. Way to much for a bag. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten two or three bags of that from the start. And oh, by the way, I had clean the crap out of the Carrib Sea stuff too, but not nearly as much. I really like the stuff, way too expensive but we make some capital investments, do we not?

I told the wife as I was filling it that "This tank is going to be cloudy for awhile." Nope, it was clear in a day. My Cichlids love it, making piles in front of their hidey holes and just moving it from here to there. My Bumble Bee, LIVES to move sand. It's his passion and his life.


----------



## chc36 (Apr 9, 2011)

I got a bag of quickrete play sand from lowe's that was advertised as rinsed, cleaned, sifted, etc. So I put it right in, water was cloudy for 1 day and the next it was completely clear and I've never seen my fish acting happier, my loach is having a ball. I need to get a snail soon to help in breaking up the sulfer pockets. Water parameters are all good, things seem great at the moment. Guess time will tell.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

This may be a stupid question, but, how to you vacuum sand? When I go to set up my 65g tall tank, I was thinking of using sand... easier to grow plants in, and easier to keep plant substrate underneath of it.

But.... when you vacuum, doesn't all the sand get sucked up the siphon? How do you clean the poop and old food out of it?


----------



## chc36 (Apr 9, 2011)

I haven't tried yet but apparently you just run it slightly above the sand and it picks everything up without picking up to much sand


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks! Good to know.

So, I guess after a long while if it looks like the sand level has gone down, you could just add a couple handfuls back into the tank. Would that cause cloudiness or sand particles to get into the fishes gills?


----------



## ReStart (Jan 3, 2011)

I saw the concrete sand but thought it might be "chemically active" in some negative way so I passed on that.

As far as the vacuuming goes, I have a big siphon tube and as said above, I pass it lightly over the sand. If it picks up too much, which it often does, I put my finger on the end of the hose to stop the flow and the sand settles back down. The fish hate it because it changes the topography that they have created but it gives them something to do as least. lol

I too, have thought about fine sand particles getting the the gill structure of my fish but I have never heard of anyone having an issue with that. And, I've seen fish live and thrive in water that so full of it that the visibility was nearly zero. So maybe it's not an issue for them, that they have some method of wiping or cleansing them that I don't know about. Anyway, I don't worry about that too much but at the same time I try to minimize it.


----------



## phys (Feb 4, 2011)

Good info on the play sand. I think i'll just stick with the reef sand stuff when i get ready to put some in my 75 gal. 

I'm not quite convinced of sand getting in gills of fish... they live in rivers, streams, etc, that has suspended debris/sand/whatevs in it and they do fine in the wild.


----------



## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

Check with your pool supply stores for the PFS. It will of course be more expensive than the regular play sand but looks much better. Different stores carry different types too. I have a beige color and a white. Still need to rinse it but not as much as regular sand.



ReStart said:


> As far as the vacuuming goes, I have a big siphon tube and as said above, I pass it lightly over the sand. If it picks up too much, which it often does, I put my finger on the end of the hose to stop the flow and the sand settles back down.


^ As for cleaning, this is the way to do it. 

Another thing that I like to do is stir the sand bed up first with a bamboo skewer. This releases even more particles from the bed and allows you to pick up more when you do your cleaning.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

holly12 said:


> This may be a stupid question,* but, how to you vacuum sand? * When I go to set up my 65g tall tank, I was thinking of using sand... easier to grow plants in, and easier to keep plant substrate underneath of it.
> 
> But.... when you vacuum, doesn't all the sand get sucked up the siphon? How do you clean the poop and old food out of it?


Bottom line----You don't.

Sure once a year or so I suck up the stuff on top of the sand. But I never do anything to actually stirr up the sand. I don't even have a power filter or air stone. So everything just settles down on the sand.


my .02


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> I don't even have a power filter or air stone. So everything just settles down on the sand.


How do you filter your water? (Don't your fish need a filter?) I gotta' learn how to keep fish the way you do - it sounds a lot easier! 

Also heard that sand can cause toxic gasses to build up under the sand (because it's compact and doesn't have airflow through cracks like gravel does) that can leech out into the water and kill your fish.... how do you stop that from happening? Do you 'poke' the sand every week to aerate it, or stir it up?


----------



## chc36 (Apr 9, 2011)

You stir the sand to keep the sulfer from building up. Typically people do it when doing water changes. Also having fish that dig in the sand help a lot. I need to get a snail to help out with. My gold dojo digs a lot which will help a lot I think


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Cool beans! Now I'm excited about the prospect of using sand when I finally get to set up my 65g!! (Thanks!!)


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

holly12 said:


> How do you filter your water? (Don't your fish need a filter?) I gotta' learn how to keep fish the way you do - it sounds a lot easier!
> 
> Also heard that sand can cause toxic gasses to build up under the sand (because it's compact and doesn't have airflow through cracks like gravel does) that can leech out into the water and kill your fish.... how do you stop that from happening? Do you 'poke' the sand every week to aerate it, or stir it up?


Actually I do filter the water. Using the live plants. The only questions is whether or not that is more (or less) effective than man made mechanical filters.

Deap Sand Beds (DSBs) are used in some marine systems to help with nitrate reduction. What happens is anaerobic (very low oxygen) of anoxic (low oxygen) bacteria "reverse" the aerobic build up of nitrates. So that nitrates are reduced to nitrItes and then to Nitrogen gas.

One of the dangers of such operation is that it is possible under some conditions for bacteria to further reduce nitrItes to ammonia and sulfur compounds. Hence the danger of releasing bad stuff not to mention the ammonia being returned to the system.

Another thing I have heard is that DSBs do nothing to reduce phosphates. So even properly functioning you have at the sand surface, low oxygen, higher carbon dioxide, phosphates, and nitrogen gas. Those are the perfect conditions fo cyano bacteria to bloom.

With live plants you have the plants converting ammonia/nitrates, phosphates and carbon dioxide into plant tissure and oxygen. Plus a very slow circulation of water through the plants' roots and circulation system. All of which prevents the "problems" of sand operation.

Plus the plants also bio accumulate (filter out) stuff like copper and other heavy metals as well. And by reducting nitrates return kH (alk) to the system that was consumed by the forward ammonia->nitrIte->nitrate generation.

So I do filter all my tanks. With thriving plants. *old dude

Still just my .02


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

^ Wow! You should write a book! Seriously! A book on fish keeping including the substrate, filtration, everything! You know so much, lol, it'll take me forever to learn half as much! It would be handy to be able to access your wealth of knowledge 24/7. A book would solve that problem, (and make you some extra money along the way, lol). 

Thanks for your response! It's a lot for my small mind to digest, but I'll try to understand it all.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

holly12 said:


> ^ Wow! You should write a book!
> ...
> 
> .


Yea but then I would have to check the spelling and provide references. *old dude

my .02


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Yea but then I would have to check the spelling and provide references. *old dude
> 
> my .02


Bob's a household name in this forum, but most of the basics and even half of the advanced knowledge some of us tout aren't that hard to wrap your brain around once you've gotten the hang of it. I could run a freshwater planted tank with my eyes closed, it seems like, after being on this forum and hearing everybody's thoughts for so long.


----------



## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

gtm2[email protected] said:


> Bob's a household name in this forum,


Hope that doesn't say anything bad about households here. *r2


> but most of the basics and even half of the advanced knowledge some of us tout aren't that hard to wrap your brain around once you've gotten the hang of it. I could run a freshwater planted tank with my eyes closed, it seems like, after being on this forum and hearing everybody's thoughts for so long.


+1


----------



## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

There is already a book on the way Bob does his tanks, Diana Walsted wrote one on natural aquariums. You can usually find them in libraries.


----------



## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I agree with you gtm. I haven't had any bad advice from anyone here! Everyone seems to know what they're doing, even if they have different ways of doing it.


----------

