# Water quality - ph and KH...again



## Efishency (Nov 29, 2010)

Hello everyone

I have just joined the site, so I guess this is also an introduction message 

I have recently got a bunch of Garra Rufa fish (spa fish) for the house, and Im trying to make their home a happy one as far as water quality is concerned. Cant find much on their preferred conditions apart from the following:

Temp: 20-43oC (very tolerable)
ph: 6.5-8.5, although I also read 7.2-7.8. 
GH: 'not too hard'

at the moment i am running tanks with RO water, with Waterlife pH 7.2 buffer. KH is around 3 degrees, and GH around 5 degrees. pH 7-7.3 (i have 3 tanks set up). what i noticed after a while is the ph slowly dropping in one tank even to 6.9. The reasons I guess are the textbook ones.

Tap water varies seasonally, ph:7.7-8.7 and both KH and GH hardness beyond most testers. Saying that I have put 5 fish in a small tank with tap water (ph:8.2) and they seem to be fine. 

my concerns are that using RO water does seem more favourable in terms of water management, as I could raise KH (soda water or commercial products) and probably use the Waterlife buffer to bring ph to 7.2ish which is fine. the major problem is that i live in a country with serious drought problems, and most ro's giving a 1:3 ratio of waste water give me a bit of a heartache, not to mention pocket ache. plus a long time to get water quantities i need, as i aim to set up tanks also for friends.


So, after this long blabla, I would appreciate it if anyone could help with the following:

1) Are there more precise parameters for the Garra Rufa fish?
2) Is there a better way to reduce the use of RO and actually work with the tap water (ie, reliably reduce pH to more desired levels. I understand this will require to reduce the KH and so buffering capacity)? I understand also that mixing RO and tap water in certain ratios will help the hardness issues, but will that substantially reuce the buffering capacity and hence allow the lowering of ph? 
3) finally, i guess to summarise, how to i turn high KH and GH, and pH8.5ish
to ph 7.5 reliably?

I appreciate all the help!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would be very surprised if these fish aren't like most and that they can survive well outside "prescribed" parameters. Most fish just need a stable value vs certain value. But, I have never had experience with that type of fish.

Have you tried mixing your RO and tap 50/50 and let it sit for 24hrs and see what you have for ph/kh/gh? That is what I do. My tap is 8.2ph/9kh and I usually end up with about 7.4ph/4kh and it is very stable. I don't add any additives. Does your RO knock your kh to 0?


----------



## Efishency (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

My RO does take KH to zero. I will try mixing. I have done so before, only in a bucket and there wasnt much difference though. Perhaps because I didnt let it sit long enough, I tested after a couple of minutes. With regards to the fish being ok outside the described parameters, they do seem fine, Im just worried if any signs from stress take longer to show than the one week I have the 5 fish in the tap water. Would I know earlier if that was the case?

My only thoughts on mixing is that due to the buffering capacity of the high KH tap water, the RO water will not be able to lower the pH of the new mixed water. Could that be the case?

Thanks again for the help!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

With any and all fish you get, you should drip acclimate them to the new water they are going to. This will allow them to slowly transition into their new environment and it becomes less of a shock when you put them into the tank. The shock is what can kill them. We're not just talking temperature, but more the water (ph/kh/temp).

The natural buffers will not raise the ph back up. Mixing the two is a natural way to get your desired ph/kh. The natural buffers can bring ph back up/down when using ph up/down products but will not when doing it this way. That is why it is usually unsafe to use these products. However, it should be okay to add either an acid/akaline buffer (I would use the Seachem products) to your RO water to get the desired ph before you mix with your tap water. The ph coming out of my RO is 7.4, but when I let it sit for 24hrs it comes down to 6.6. I do 50% water changes and do a 50/50 RO/tap back to the tank. I more try for a certain kh for my plants and the ph is what it is when all said and done.


----------



## Efishency (Nov 29, 2010)

i did the mix, 50-50 tap water and ro. to start:

TAP - KH=13, GH=14, ph=7.9
RO - KH=0, GH=0, ph=6.6
MIX - KH=7, GH=7, ph =7.8

I know the ph of tap wasnt high to start with, however, it didnt seem to move much with the mix after 24 hours. for now with this water supply i guess it is fine, although i will need to play with higher ph's later. 

how long would i usually see signs of stress due to water quality? would the fish be feeding if the water quality is too stressful?

Thanks again, you are a big help!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

When you tested the ph of the mixed value was this after putting it in the tank or in a container where you mixed the two?

To get the tank on the full 50/50 water you'll need to do a 50% water change and replace completely with RO water. After that you just make sure whatever % you do it's a 50/50 mix that is going in.


----------



## Efishency (Nov 29, 2010)

I mixed half half in a 20 litre bucket and tested the following day.. I have a feeling this was not the best way to test it perhaps?

Thanks for replying!


----------



## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Your could try letting your RO water sit for a little more or agitating it. Both of my RO systems known my 8.2 water in the 6.6-7.0 range.

If it still doesn't come down then you could look into adding some acid buffer to lower your RO water ph. Once it stables out then you can mix it to get the disired outcome you're shooting for. 

I think these fish will adjust to the ph just fine, even if for other periods it swings a little high. I use a 50/50 spilt most to get my kh in the 4-5 range. Ph is somewhat of an afterthought.


----------

