# salt migration and algae questions



## jbhillman

Is there anyway to prevent the salt from migrating out of my tank. Over a period of months I keep having to clean up the salt from the area around the lid and the stuff around the sump. I thought salt did not evaporate.
I had three rather large (1.25" tentacles) glass anemones. I got three peppermint shrimp and within a week or so the anemones were gone. The guy also told me they would clean up the brown algae. They haven't, and now I have the red algae growing also. Any suggestions for what will eat this stuff.
I have 1 yellow tang and 2 yellowtail blue damsels. They have been in the tank for about three months and they are happy and healthy. Other than the fact that they hide if I come near the tank.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Its called Salt Creep. As for stopping it, nope. Thats the nature of a salt water tank. Keeping bubbles out of the tank will help, but you just are not going to stop it.
Coralife Salt Creep Eliminator 8oz (Protects against Salt Damage)
Some snails will eat Cyano Algae, if thats what we are talking about as far as Red Algae. As for Brown Algae or Diatoms, what have you done to your tank to get Diatoms to start up again?
Saltwater Invertebrates for Marine Reef Aquariums: Astraea Conehead Snail
Saltwater Invertebrates for Marine Aquariums: Banded Trochus Snail
Saltwater Aquarium Invertebrates for Marine Aquariums: Nerite Snail


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Its called Salt Creep. As for stopping it, nope. Thats the nature of a salt water tank. Keeping bubbles out of the tank will help, but you just are not going to stop it.
> Coralife Salt Creep Eliminator 8oz (Protects against Salt Damage)
> Some snails will eat Cyano Algae, if thats what we are talking about as far as Red Algae. As for Brown Algae or Diatoms, what have you done to your tank to get Diatoms to start up again?
> Saltwater Invertebrates for Marine Reef Aquariums: Astraea Conehead Snail
> Saltwater Invertebrates for Marine Aquariums: Banded Trochus Snail
> Saltwater Aquarium Invertebrates for Marine Aquariums: Nerite Snail


My snails aren't eating the cyano algae. I have 15 of them in there. This started about three days ago. I never completely got rid of the diatoms. They come and go.
The first time around I was extremely active in testing and trying to control everything. I got a tank full of dead fish for my effort. This time around I am not so active. So my fish aren't dead.


----------



## Reefing Madness

So you have one of the 3 snails that i listed then? How many are we talkin about?


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> So you have one of the 3 snails that i listed then? How many are we talkin about?


3 astera and 12 trocus . They work the rocks and glass but not the sand.


----------



## phil_n_fish

A good way to help against the salt creep is to wipe the light fixture and anything on top of the tank every day. There will be salt creep where there is moisture after it evaporates. Either use water or a tank safe cleaning agent in a squirt bottle and a washable rag. My VHO lighting comes with a removable light cover that I can easily slide out every day. Also it's easier to wipe salt creep off of glass and smooth plastic so keep this in mind when choosing what to buy for lighting and accessories.


----------



## Reefing Madness

jbhillman said:


> 3 astera and 12 trocus . They work the rocks and glass but not the sand.


Get the whip out on them, tell them they need to get off the glass.... Stupid snails.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Get the whip out on them, tell them they need to get off the glass.... Stupid snails.


Still have all but two of the snails. the tsang and the two yellow tail damsels are happy and healthy. I also have three shrimp that I bought to get rid of glass anenome, which they did. Now I have been fighting all the nasty forms of algae for three or four months and nothing I do seems to help.

Now I am using distilled water for water changes, but all the gunk is back within a few days. 
What can I do? Ammonia and Nitrites are both at 0ppm and nitrates are below 5ppm. 
I am actually considering moving the fish to my 29 gallon aquarium and washing everything off with fresh water to kill all the crap and then starting over. But the fish won't survive that.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Ok, your using Distilled now, what were you using brefore? Tap Water? If you were, then your going to have to wait out the phosphates that are still in the water. Test em. Need phosphates readings. You can throw in GFO, Chemipure Elie, or a phosphate pad in a filter.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Ok, your using Distilled now, what were you using brefore? Tap Water? If you were, then your going to have to wait out the phosphates that are still in the water. Test em. Need phosphates readings. You can throw in GFO, Chemipure Elie, or a phosphate pad in a filter.


Phosphates have always tested at zero so that isn't the problem. I am using well water. I have spent several hundred dollars on testing equipment and I can spend several hours testing for all the things necessary for a reef tank. Nothing tests out of the ordinary, yet I still have all this crap growing in my tank. I also have algae growing in my swimming pool that will survive all the normal clorine treatment and that my filter wont remove so I guess i just have stuff growing that no one else has.

I figure that if I start throwing in a bunch of chemicals, then all I will succeed in doing is killing all my fish again.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Ok, so lets try to identify what algae we are dealing with. Got a description? There is a clean water algae called Bryopsis, and it ain't easy to kill. Most go with the high Magnesium treatment. Also, with only 3 snails, doesn't surpise me they aren't getting it all. You should have about 20-30 mixed snails. These guys will wipe out algae, gotta trust me on this one.
Bryopsis hypnoides
Bryopsis Algae Control Method Worked - Salt Water Aquarium Secrets


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Ok, so lets try to identify what algae we are dealing with. Got a description? There is a clean water algae called Bryopsis, and it ain't easy to kill. Most go with the high Magnesium treatment. Also, with only 3 snails, doesn't surpise me they aren't getting it all. You should have about 20-30 mixed snails. These guys will wipe out algae, gotta trust me on this one.
> Bryopsis hypnoides
> Bryopsis Algae Control Method Worked - Salt Water Aquarium Secrets


green hair, red, brown, black, grey. My tank looks like a sewage treatment plant. I had 15 snails, two have died. They never did much to clean up the algae.


----------



## Reefing Madness

I'm at a loss. Only thing left is lighting. What type of substrate are you using?


----------



## coralbandit

Pictures in photo gallery show questionable lighting for a reef.Also tank in window with uncontrolled daylight.


----------



## Reefing Madness

coralbandit said:


> Pictures in photo gallery show questionable lighting for a reef.Also tank in window with uncontrolled daylight.


I guess that's what I get for not going an finding the pics, aye. Very nice air, thanks. Ill stick with CoralBandit on this one. No reason to look any further.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> I'm at a loss. Only thing left is lighting. What type of substrate are you using?


Sand substrate. Marineland reefcapable led light.


----------



## jbhillman

coralbandit said:


> Pictures in photo gallery show questionable lighting for a reef.Also tank in window with uncontrolled daylight.


Maybe not good reef lighting, but since I am not maintaining a reef, that isn't relevant. Tank in window with uncontrolled daylight is also not quite the case. The window is on the north side of the house under a covered 28 x 15 foot deck. It get no more light there than it would in any room of the house placed against any wall.


----------



## coralbandit

Not shooting at no-one ,just trying to help you and madness diagnose.The wrong spectrum light or amount of light play "KEY" role in algae and aquariums.Marine aquariums are far more picky(choosy ,specific)with the light they get and what they do with it and nutrients available.Only trying help and learn.I have a marineland "double bright" LED and feel its low light even over my fresh tanks.I use current true lumen pro leds on most tanks now with good luck so far ,but consider getting PAR meter to be certain.They look great , but that's not proof they are correct or truely healthy.


----------



## Reefing Madness

They are better than using a at-12 normal output light. They will suffice for FOWLR without issues. Still at a loss then as to why the algae outbreak, if its nit the sunlight. Do me a favor here, kill yiur lights for 3 days, let's us know what it looks like on the 4th day.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> They are better than using a at-12 normal output light. They will suffice for FOWLR without issues. Still at a loss then as to why the algae outbreak, if its nit the sunlight. Do me a favor here, kill yiur lights for 3 days, let's us know what it looks like on the 4th day.


Okay, I'll try that. Bluelights okay, or all completely off?


----------



## Reefing Madness

All lights off, no lights even for feeding.


----------



## jbhillman

jbhillman said:


> Okay, I'll try that. Bluelights okay, or all completely off?


Okay, Lights back on today. About 50 percent reduction of brown crap on glass. About 25 percent reduction of crap on rocks and substrate.

Taking a proactive role in postioning snails where I want them to eat this stuff. Doubt that will work, but what the heck, can't hurt.

Getting closer to flushing the fish and going back to freshwater.


----------



## Reefing Madness

You can't go flushing anything. If I have a 204g SW tank running, why the hell can't we get yours running. Shut the lights back off for another 3 days. this will kill the algae, its just a matter of time. Usually does not come back, because you've removed it from the tank via the skimmer. Give the coral to someone to watch and hold until this is over, but ts going to be a lighting knock out. You can use chems, but I don't much like doing that.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> You can't go flushing anything. If I have a 204g SW tank running, why the hell can't we get yours running. Shut the lights back off for another 3 days. this will kill the algae, its just a matter of time. Usually does not come back, because you've removed it from the tank via the skimmer. Give the coral to someone to watch and hold until this is over, but ts going to be a lighting knock out. You can use chems, but I don't much like doing that.


I deleted my original answer because I am not happy. I'll turn the lights back off and do a London blackout. Be back in a week with the results.


----------



## Reefing Madness




----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


>


Wrapped my tank in heavy black trash bags. Top and sides. Should be completely dark in the tank this time. I posted a pic of it in my photo gallery.


----------



## Reefing Madness

jbhillman said:


> Wrapped my tank in heavy black trash bags. Top and sides. Should be completely dark in the tank this time. I posted a pic of it in my photo gallery.


I went back through the thread. I seee you said you were using Sand Substrate, I just assumed it was Live Sand of some sort, what kind is it exactly?


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> I went back through the thread. I seee you said you were using Sand Substrate, I just assumed it was Live Sand of some sort, what kind is it exactly?


Live sand. Argonite I think. Abouyt 2 1/2 inches except I am losing some every time I vacuum the crap off the bottom.


----------



## Reefing Madness

jbhillman said:


> Live sand. Argonite I think. Abouyt 2 1/2 inches except I am losing some every time I vacuum the crap off the bottom.


Just use a powerhead to blow it off the bottom.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Just use a powerhead to blow it off the bottom.


Took the covers off this morning. I couldn't believe the difference. Looks like all the algae is gone, not just dead, gone. No idea where it went. I just hope it stays this way. I'll know in about three days, since that is how long it has been taking for the algae to take over the tank each time I clean it.


----------



## Reefing Madness

It goes into the skimmer, thats why we suggest keeping an eye on that thing, it tends to fill up quickly with really nasty stuff while doing this.
Glad to hear it wiped it out.*w3


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> It goes into the skimmer, thats why we suggest keeping an eye on that thing, it tends to fill up quickly with really nasty stuff while doing this.
> Glad to hear it wiped it out.*w3


Took a few days, but the algae is coming back.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Something is feeding it. My set isn't the best in the world and I even have some phosphates, but I don't have an algae problem. We gotta start over here. How old are yiur test kits? Are you feeding frozen food? Sump? What's in the sump? How big is the sump? Just go through the list again, we are missing something. How often do you feed?


----------



## coralbandit

Not trying to upset people again, but improper lighting will be a major cause of algae if everything else checks out ok. Just saying.


----------



## jbhillman

Reefing Madness said:


> Something is feeding it. My set isn't the best in the world and I even have some phosphates, but I don't have an algae problem. We gotta start over here. How old are yiur test kits? Are you feeding frozen food? Sump? What's in the sump? How big is the sump? Just go through the list again, we are missing something. How often do you feed?




I appreciate everyones help. Right now I have more important issues to spend my money on. I'll get back with you next year sometime.


----------



## Reefing Madness

coralbandit said:


> Not trying to upset people again, but improper lighting will be a major cause of algae if everything else checks out ok. Just saying.


I've not heard of Marinleand Reef Capable LED lighting causing Algae issues. Especially a new one.


----------



## coralbandit

I know my thoughts haven't been welcome with open arms so here's something that I was told about yesetrday in regards to ugly algae,this info came from LFS who had suffered nasty algae in a coral tank they couldn't get a hold on.Hope sincerely this helps;ReefSome - Vitamin C Dosing The nutri biotic brand was the one used by my LFS and they have virtually wiped out their nusciance algae while keeping lights on.I my self have excessive nutrients in my 29, that only show in test of nitrate small amount of hair algae and a continuos re-growth of aptasia.I will be trying this myself as one bottle of the product cost about $15.Good luck,I'm really trying to help.


----------



## Reefing Madness

No different than Vodka Dosing?


----------



## coralbandit

possibly not besides it's a different addative(gas in car or diesel or alcohol or propane)they create the same effect (motion/movement) but the mechanics are different.It's just a suggestion that is not evpensive.I didn't notice vodka dosing being offered as a solution by you and thought maybe you felt it was not applicable.This was in fact discussed yesterday (at LFS) after I asked about vodka dosing.Possibly you could have suggested vodka dosing earlier if you thought it would help.I'm sorry op feels so disgusted as to not continue to search for reasonable solution.I've never needed to blackout,add anything or start over.I have well running systems and as you did say feel this problem can be solved.


----------



## Reefing Madness

I did not suggest Carbon Dosing for Algae because it doesn't work. Carbon dosing goes after algae ie phosphates last, after its eaten out the Trates first. Thats why I did not advise that one. Same with Vinegar Dosing. After reading the Vitamin C Dosing, there doesn't appear to be a difference. Phosphate pad, silicates removal and such would be of much better help. Albeit, i have no idea whats causing this issues in a tank with no readings. They gotta be coming from somewhere, but have no idea where. Ran out of ideas. But Carbon Dosing, which I still do for nitrates, does not do it.


----------



## coralbandit

wiped out their(LFS) brown crappy algae.And to further my belief of advice from questionable sources , they don't sell the vitamin c like everything they advise to people(no gain for them$$$$).


----------



## Reefing Madness

Yea, its cheap just like vinegar and vodka dosing. Must be a new thing, I'll have to look into that one CB, never heard of it. Doesn't mean it don't work though. Thanks. But if it just wipe out, Brown Algae? Diatom Aglae growth? Did you see it, or hear it from them?


----------



## coralbandit

watched their tank get worse and worse(wouldn't purchase from it) and saw just yesterday that 90% of the algae(simaliar brown crap in op tank) was gone.I to have never heard of this either ,but will say vitamin c is one of active ingredients in selcon(food supplement{supposedly for fish} that opens my one finicky leather).Quickly checking the proper dose for 40g was less than 1/2 teaspoon x2 a day.Doen't seem dangerous or expensive so I just ordered a bottle ,and will report my findings once I've started.As I said they have no gain in this advice(which we all know to major reason for LFS mis information) as they don't sell it,so what the heck!It was $21 with shipping.Also as you said something has to be feeding the algae and if regular nutrients are in line this product may affect something we don't/or can't test for.I am a skeptic of the industry and advice that gaurentees benefit to only one $$$.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Right on. Keep us posted on this one. Will be a very interesting find if it does indeed work.


----------



## jbhillman

About two weeks ago I reduced my lighting time to 5 hours per day. I also bought 9 hermit crabs. 4 of the crabs are still alive. About 5 of the 15 snails are dead. The LFS girl advised me that my lighting was the problem. 
Within a few days of reducing the time the algae started dying off. I cleaned the tank and did a water change a week ago. The tank still looks like it was just cleaned.
Apologies to coralbandit and Reefing Madness for my stubborness. It looks like it was the lighting after all. Not much fun to look at a dark tank, but less fun to see it look so nasty. Lights are only on in the evening now, and my fish are not hiding so much. 
Finally starting to think about getting a couple of clowns. Also some saltwater plants??


----------



## [email protected]

Awesome..congrats!


----------



## Sully

Just finished reading this whole thread. Glad your winning the battle with the algae.


----------



## coralbandit

hopefully by the time most "attempt" salt water they will have a basic understanding of aquarium water chemisty.Not saying "master of the aqua" just basic info.In freshwater tanks the type,amount and duration of lighting can be a source of pleasure and something plants and fish will thrive under.That being said the "role" of lighting in marine aquariums is slightly more important(even in fish only).The spectrum and strength of light need to strongly scrutinized as improper ; strength, spectrum, duration can lead to situatoins that quickly get "out of hand"($$$).Nobody wants to replace expensive equipment with even more expenive equipment,which is why it is so important to purchase things with particular knowledge(research which some of the best of is asking members on this site about their experience).I myself have used many products in general some with good results and others not so good.I've used(purchased)more different lights than I like to account for $$$ (have basically new 4' metal halide(2x250 +) sitting in attack along with many standard flourecent fixtures and a few "chain pet store" LEDS).Every light is really different.Salt "cuts light" as it is solid,and therefore dimminishes even good lighting.Add in nutrients(fancy word for waste and by-products) and lighting can make or break salt set ups.I,m glad you have gotten your algae under control,and hope you truely (finally) get to enjoy your tank.CONGRATS!


----------



## jbhillman

coralbandit said:


> hopefully by the time most "attempt" salt water they will have a basic understanding of aquarium water chemisty.Not saying "master of the aqua" just basic info.In freshwater tanks the type,amount and duration of lighting can be a source of pleasure and something plants and fish will thrive under.That being said the "role" of lighting in marine aquariums is slightly more important(even in fish only).The spectrum and strength of light need to strongly scrutinized as improper ; strength, spectrum, duration can lead to situatoins that quickly get "out of hand"($$$).Nobody wants to replace expensive equipment with even more expenive equipment,which is why it is so important to purchase things with particular knowledge(research which some of the best of is asking members on this site about their experience).I myself have used many products in general some with good results and others not so good.I've used(purchased)more different lights than I like to account for $$$ (have basically new 4' metal halide(2x250 +) sitting in attack along with many standard flourecent fixtures and a few "chain pet store" LEDS).Every light is really different.Salt "cuts light" as it is solid,and therefore dimminishes even good lighting.Add in nutrients(fancy word for waste and by-products) and lighting can make or break salt set ups.I,m glad you have gotten your algae under control,and hope you truely (finally) get to enjoy your tank.CONGRATS!


Over the last few months, the algae has adjusted to the lower lighting levels. I am not quite back to where I was, but not free of the algae either. Cut the light back again today.
Looking to get more fish now, but rather confused by the accepted wisdom, and the obvious facts. I want a blue tang and some clown fish. Everyone says that a blue tang needs a tank bigger than 75 gallons, but I can show you half a dozen established 75 gallon tanks with a yellow tang, a blue tang, clown fish and damsels. What is the real situation? Why can I not get honest answers, instead of lopsided opinions?


----------



## coralbandit

I am guilty of those fish minus the damsels in my 75.I do have a hippo tang,phillipine yellow tang and clowns.In the last year + they have done well,get along well and have grown.How long they stay with me is a responsible question I wonder about.Fortunate in their health and growth their suitainability to my tank is appearent more so every day.I wouldn't(nor could)stop anyone from getting what they want,I would offer advice ,that anybody on this site member or guest have no obligation to follow.
If your desire is to obtain a species you know will outgrow your tank then you need to make future arrangements,to trade back to LFS,purchase a larger tank or give to friend with larger tank.I certainly know that fish I just purchased will not live their full life with me unless they die untimely.I made my LFS owner agree to take back the fish when he outgrows my tank.I think if you're fairly regular with a certain store a deal can be struck.I also think conversly that even a store who is not familiar with you may agree to such deal as they tend to know better than any of us,most fish die untimely under average care and they will never have to own up to agreement.Also whose to say 2 years from now they hold up their end of the deal?
Ultimately all that is said is advice,and your tank is yours and should be a source of pleasure and enjoyment to you.
Glad to hear you're enjoying your tank more now.


----------



## Reefing Madness

If you saw the way a 10" hippo swims across my 8' long tank in a millisecond, you'd know why they shouldn't be in a small tank. But, I try not to judge other peoples picks on fish, only advise I give is if they ask if their tank is overstocked.


----------

