# ammonia issues on new tank



## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi,

I have a 75 gallon freshwater tank with sump. Sump has mechanical filter + fluval ceramic biomedia.

Prior to sunday, the tank had no fish and was not cycled.

I added a firemouth on Sunday along with SafeStart.

I just did a water test and detected low levels of ammonia (0.5ppm)

Is this normal? Is it worth changing out some of the water or should I be patient? Note I did overfeed him the night I acclimated him as well as the morning after.

I realized this just as I started to acclimate another 2 fish...a red-spotted severum and a blue acara.

Recommendations? Should I do a partial water change or just let the tank cycle run its course?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

you are now cycling "fish in". You will have to change water as ammonia is dangerous if not outright deadly.In order for your tank to cycle in a somewhat timely manner you need to have the ammonia though.Hopefully others will weigh in but I would say change water when your ammonia gets to 1ppm.Higher will have negative effect on fish(shorter life than normal to possible immediate death),but you need to have the ammonia to have cycle take place.How much is truely the key.If you change water all the time(try to keep it lower than .5ppm) then it could take a really long time to cycle .Test regulary for ammonia and don't add more fish(as 3 should provide ample source of ammonia) till you see nitrAtes.No need to test for nitrItes for a week or so,but in a week or ten days start to test(every other day) for nitrItes(you will still need to change water then also).Once you have nitrItes test for them like you are now for ammonia and change water.Eventually(3-4 weeks maybe{tough call on time line}) you should show nitrAtes and be past the heavy(regular) water changes.Try not to overfeed as to minimise your need to change water.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

What water change would be appropriate for the heavy water changes, 50% at most?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Change the% of water you need to lower the ammonia by(example;1ppmA to.5ppmA is a 50% change/1.25ppm to .5ppm is 60%).It is really a math thing and why testing is important.
here's a link about cycling without testing specifics;
Tips for Cycling Your New Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Getting Your Fish Tank Up and Running with Minimal Headaches


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Give it some time. Even with TSS in there, the cycle can still take ten or more days.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Cycling your tank can take as long as 6 weeks even with a product like safestart. Read the link by coral.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Gizmo said:


> Give it some time. Even with TSS in there, the cycle can still take ten or more days.


seems to be a lot of conflicting info out there about cycling. should I just allow ammonia levels to rise moderately so it cycles faster? 

seems like the choice is longer cycle with low ammonia levels and larger and more frequent water changes or shorter cycle with higher levels. not sure what scenario is better for my fish. maybe something in between.?

my tank temp is 80 so I'm guessing that will speed up the bacterial growth...

zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I say the same as coral - don't let your ammonia levels climb much over 1 ppm. But also, give it time.

You don't need to do daily water changes unless your levels are high, and you really shouldn't change more than 50% of the tank water, otherwise you'd be really stressing the fish and could shock the system.

You DO, however, need to test every day. What test method are you using? Strips? Liquid titration?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Liquid titration test kit (API master freshwater test kit)

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

as there is no safe level of ammonia for fish ,I don't think the choices are that different(the level you let ammonia climb to).Possibly(I stress this as may your fish) a slightly higher than 1ppm could be aloud to happen, but certainly not for long without stressing your fish.They have to be your #1 concern since they have been "installed" and the convience of "timely " cycling a far second.Even if your fish were to "survive" higher levels that does not eliminate the great possiblity that they will be ;stunted in growth,internally affected by ammonia,more sucesptable to "ongoing" or "lingering" illnesses, or live there "full life" in 6 months to year.Many fish have survived absolutely brutal cycling only to die a few months later(unfortunately their full life).The damage ammonia causes fish is the #1 enemy besides disease in a fully cycled, well kept tank.I can only assume you chose those fish as you prefer them for your "biotope", instead of cycling victims.Before knowledge of the fishless cycle people would purchase cheap fish they did not necessarily even want to keep ,and subject them to the very diffacult water conditions that occur.They expected the fish to die,destoryed them after or possibly traded them back to store(store would never except them if they knew what they used for).Now with the proper testing equipment(you have) and the knowledge of water changes to mitigate ammonia,nitrIte there is no need to subject even the cheapest fish to a sure death sentance.Please be patient,change water as test results dictate and prepare to enjoy a healthy fully cycled tank in a month or so.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi coralbandit,

Okay... I will keep a close eye on the ammonia levels and change water accordingly whenever the ammonia levels reach 1ppm or higher.

Thank you for the advice, i'd rather the cycle take longer and have healthier fish.

-Zeke


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Zwanged, it would do no good to yourself become stressed over what has happened and try to prepare for what is yet to come....You need water storage most common is 20 gal. containers sold at local stores that will hold water and is safe for water storage. Next you need to treat the water you store...dechlore and dechloramine. and keep the water airated, and if possible a submersible heater would help keep at temperature. You must test the waters ph to assure it is near your tank water perameters...now doing all this stuff for storage may yet change the water around in ph...so don't just test and a few days later add to the tank...everything is tested when it's going to be used with little to no delays. This way you have large amounts of water on hand if need as an emergency. Try to keep the temp at tank stats and it will be safe where ammonia and such won't be in the water, since you will treat the stored water ready for use. IMO I wouldn't add anymore fish till your tank is cycled and be prepared for a period of time...it takes as long as it takes, and you need an ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kit to determine when nitrates start to show and what levels are the other two in the nitrogen cycle. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

LTruex said:


> You need water storage most common is 20 gal.


Larry,

Not questioning your methods here, but why store water? Tap water is just as easily available, and can be treated right when you need it. IMO, water storage unless you're an RO nut like I used to be is at best pointless and at worst (i.e. when you don't use it), a waste of water.

I'm not sure about you guys, but the water pressure from my bath tub faucet can fill a 5 gallon bucket in about 1 minute. And that can be done at any temperature, since I also have a water heater.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

In fact I wasn't planning to add any more fish for a while. And the only additional fish I plan to add to this tank _period_ is a gold nugget pleco (L177)...which I plan to get in like the next month or two.

Your idea of having extra water on-hand that matches the tank temperature is a good one. I can set up a spare 29 gallon cube tank i have in the basement with water parameters that match this one. I have an air pump and extra heater already, so should be pretty simple to set up. That tank could also serve as a hospital tank later on.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

L.T. offers good advice on extra water.I didn't want to "ask too much" but having properly acclimated water helps tremendously ,especially when the need could arise any time.I myself have 64 gallons;pre heated,dechlorinated and airated all the time (unless I just changed water in which case I will have to wait a mere 4 hours before being ready to go again).Clean,fresh,proper water is the cheepest,healthiest,best thing you can do for your fish and wallet.Chemicals and removal/absorption resins are far more pricey than water and with what you have (storage vessel,air pump and heater) you are all set.Keep it ready and re-fill right after use and trouble should be far from your path


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

well i guess having spare hospital tank on-hand is a good idea regardless, can't hurt that it doubles as a fully prepped supply of water for water changes, emergency or otherwise.

-Zeke




Gizmo said:


> Larry,
> 
> Not questioning your methods here, but why store water? Tap water is just as easily available, and can be treated right when you need it. IMO, water storage unless you're an RO nut like I used to be is at best pointless and at worst (i.e. when you don't use it), a waste of water.
> 
> I'm not sure about you guys, but the water pressure from my bath tub faucet can fill a 5 gallon bucket in about 1 minute. And that can be done at any temperature, since I also have a water heater.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> well i guess having spare hospital tank on-hand is a good idea regardless, can't hurt that it doubles as a fully prepped supply of water for water changes, emergency or otherwise.
> 
> -Zeke


+1

The only reason I stored water back in the day was because I had a 50GPD RO system that took almost an hour to fill a 5 gallon bucket. Hospital tanks are vital, if you have the means to have one on standby.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Off topic a little and there was a thread about water from water heaters a few months ago that no-one said anything vital on,I personally feel (and science confirms)that water of elavated tempatures hold MORE TDS .Although you can mix this elavated tempature water to get the desired outcome I feel raising the temp of cold water(in a storage vessel) truely gives you better quality water.I filter (two filters) the water I use in my tanks only,but if I filtered all water(as in before my water heater,and rest of house) I'd need to change them 3-5 times more often.I use a sediment filter in one housing and catalytic carbon(from BRS) in the second.And I don't guess the temp of my replacement water,heater and thermometer assure I replace very similiar water to that removed.I also don't agree that changing more than 50% will stress fish out(unless you do it the way you guys are).I change 66%(120gallons) sometimes on my 180 and my discus just spawned,do you think they're stressed?Water heaters(or at least good ones) have a anode (usaully zinc) to deteriorate before you steel elements avoiding the intial damage of "electrollusis"(galvanic action to us metal guys).That alone should be signal enough that something "different" takes place in water heaters.Have you ever cleaned yours out and seen all the scaling and crap?


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I absolutely agree.

I have a TDS meter which I tested on my tap water.

i get 120ppm with cold water. ~240 ppm with hot water. warm water is in-between -- about 180ppm. not sure if it's crap coming out of my water heater or what... And just that more solids are soluble in warm water...makes sense.

After my tank is cycled, if i'm doing weekly water changes, taking water from the hospital tank, will I need some sort of circulation on my hospital tank going all week, e.g., a powerhead? is a bubbler alone going to provide enough agitation to keep it circulating adequately? Standing water is not a good thing.

I also suppose I could use an old HOB filter with no media to just circulate the water.

-Zeke


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Gizmo, water storage is a personal consideration and my words are a suggestion that could prove beneficial. Tap water is never preferred over conditioned and prepared water in the event of emergency use, and you do know that, so I fail to understand your questioning this suggestion. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I think my question boils down to at what extremes do you really want to agonize over contingency plans. I'm sure that fish as tough as cichlids can handle tap water vs. pre-treated stored water, just as they can handle certain ammonia levels. It's up to us to draw the line at what is "tolerable", both for us and for the fish.

Like I said, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I do realize the advantages to having stored water, I guess I just never considered it for tap water.

Honestly, I'm not going to run home and fill up my other 2 5 gallon buckets with tap water because I already know the water coming fresh out of my tap has about 40 ppm TDS, 4dKH & 5dGH. That's with the hot and cold mixed to my estimation of the tank's water temp (using my hand, not a thermometer). Others, however, don't have as good of tap water as I have, so I can definitely sympathize.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

First I want to say ;Good for you Zeke on having TDS meter,I feel testing for all we can and we know about to be very important.I also am a skeptic of the industry and feel there are still unknown things(as inkmaker mentioned"organics we can't measure for")amongst other things in our water that we should(if we knew about) be concerned about.
Gizmo I also apologise for I should have started my last post with "I respectfully dis agree".I don't believe your info to be "wrong" as many fish do fine ,prefer, and even thrive with elavated TDS and therefore your technique is acceptable.I just felt the need to say I think water heater water needs to considered more cautiously.In the thread about water heater water Navigator Black(I miss him) said he saw no problem with it and had been doing this for years.Many here have knowledge I take great privaledge in learning from and besides you guys I always considered NB and still do consider Charles(inkmaker) to have a specialised insight.Therfore my way,or suggestions are not the "right way" just my way,many have different techniques and achieve great success "keeping".I didn't mean to /I don't mean to say your wrong is all.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Your entitled to what you feel is right, I don't have a problem with that. But I cannot offer to suggest everyone consider tap water a good choice...many have applied that method and lost fish...glad to hear you haven't, but that is you and your water conditions...we cannot assume a good choice for everyone. Now can we k: Larry


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

To get back to my earlier question: what equipment do i need in the emergency tank besides the heater?. I was thinking an old HOB filter w/o media would be sufficient as it should oxygenate and circulate the water. or would a bubbler be sufficient on its own for water agitation / circulation? Or both?  Don't want to do more than I have to here. Im thinking maybe old HOB filter would be good because if for some reason i need to move fish here (e.g., my 75 gallon tank explodes) I can just move some biomedia from my sump over there and transfer the fish.



-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

And as you just mentioned ;the water each of get is truely different and needs individual and possibly special consideration.Very good point(I knew I listened to you guys for more good reasons than I can list).Thanks!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'd run with just air or unfiltered power head,as to have no issues with build up of anything,just circulated ,de-chlorinated,pre warmed water(how I do it).My bad I missed Emergency part of question(thought we were back on prepped extra water) HOB or sponge filter are the way to go and like Gizmo said "no substrate".More on this if you keep a sponge filter in your sump(always) you can have a cycled QT in minutes(no need to have empty tank hanging around waiting,all you need is the sponge ready to go)and sadly once again ; how I do it.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

There's a lot of threads on proper QT arrangements. I personally think heater and sponge filter/HOB are all you need. Don't even need substrate.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Ok that's what I thought, thanks!

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Update: Ammonia level still approximately 0.5 ppm this evening.

I started prepping my 29g emergency tank. It has a HOB filter rated for 55 gallon + bubbler + heater set to ~80-82F (not sure how well calibrated it is, will find out soon) to match my tank temperature of 80F.

I just did pH test on my tank and it is approximately 7.4, slightly higher than 7.2 yesterday. I'm guessing this may be due to the low levels of ammonia? Sounds like a water change might be in order soon...the optimal pH for my fish is 6.5-7.5 (in theory they should probably things slightly acidic). 

One question, is it worth adding prime to the emergency tank water prior to the water change (or when?) because it neutralizes ammonia? I know my tank water should already be dechlorinated fairly quickly due to the HOB filter and the bubbler. Or is adding prime totally unnecessary? What would you do at this stage of cycling the tank?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Using a dechlorinator is still a must even if you let water set.Without knowing what is in your municipal water supply you may actually have chloramine which does not evaporate.Besides converting ammonia prime and most dechlorinators also help to remove/neutralise heavy metals which can build up and cause trouble.Test your water supplies pH (in a bucket) and let it set for 24 hours and test again.It is not uncommon for the waters pH to move(stabilise).I don't THINK ammonia will raise your pH ,so possibly this will help explain your tank change(not very signifacant anyways).Also don't change water for your pH reading your tracking ammonia until you see nitrIte,pH should have no effect on cycling(people cycle all tanks from acid6.5ph right up to marine levels 8.3pH).Sometimes bubbling(oxygenating) water will adjust(stabilise) water more than just setting(Inkmaker takes water from pH10 down to 7-8pH in a couple days by merely bubbling.)


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Pure ammonia is decently basic...10.6 for 1 molar solution of ammonia (1.7% concentration by weight, if I'm doing the math right) Even in trace amounts that should have at least some impact on pH, no? Although I suppose the ammonia itself is much more of an immediate problem than pH itself, even if it does affect pH slightly.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> Using a dechlorinator is still a must even if you let water set.Without knowing what is in your municipal water supply you may actually have chloramine which does not evaporate.Besides converting ammonia prime and most dechlorinators also help to remove/neutralise heavy metals which can build up and cause trouble.Test your water supplies pH (in a bucket) and let it set for 24 hours and test again.It is not uncommon for the waters pH to move(stabilise).I don't THINK ammonia will raise your pH ,so possibly this will help explain your tank change(not very signifacant anyways).Also don't change water for your pH reading your tracking ammonia until you see nitrIte,pH should have no effect on cycling(people cycle all tanks from acid6.5ph right up to marine levels 8.3pH).Sometimes bubbling(oxygenating) water will adjust(stabilise) water more than just setting(Inkmaker takes water from pH10 down to 7-8pH in a couple days by merely bubbling.)


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Ammonia has no impact on ph, but the big concern with ammonia is the burn damage done to the gills, and is believed to be the number one cause of mysterious deaths of fish weeks or months following the cycle of new tanks. It is difficult waiting all those weeks for a tank to cycle, but the options can have other pains weeks or months later.. I didn't mean to cause you any pain Zwanged, for what is done is done...and just do you best for the fish you have...Larry


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

LTruex said:


> Ammonia has no impact on ph, but the big concern with ammonia is the burn damage done to the gills, and is believed to be the number one cause of mysterious deaths of fish weeks or months following the cycle of new tanks. It is difficult waiting all those weeks for a tank to cycle, but the options can have other pains weeks or months later.. I didn't mean to cause you any pain Zwanged, for what is done is done...and just do you best for the fish you have...Larry


Hi Larry,

No worries... I appreciate your advice! I'll do my best to take care of the fish and keep ammonia levels down. so far I haven't seen it exceed about 0.5ppm.

Zeke


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## Dave Waits (Oct 12, 2012)

Just a few suggestions. I use tap water for my tank and the first thing I did was to contact my County water Dept. to get the parameters of our tap water. Luckily, our water is rated only as moderately hard however, it is, for some reason, pretty well-buffered. So, I added ten gallons of Distilled water to my original fill on the recommendations of the water facility Engineer, this moderates the buffering and makes the cycle easier.

My Tap Water- Ph is 7.2. I had a friend test for metals and Minerals in it(He teaches at U.C.). Shocking. Lots of calcium and lime. Turns out it's the pipes in my house causing the high readings.Getting the water to temp and letting it run for five minutes to flush the pipes dropped the readings like a rock!

For the tank- I fill my water-change loads five gallons at a time. I dose with tetra Aquasafe and stick an Airline in it for five minutes. The Air agaitates the water, helping the dechlorinating and de-Chlorimine chems in the aquasafe work better. Then I open both Hood doors and slowly pour the water in spreading it across the surface of the tank. Don't dump it all in one spot. You want a good mix so no one area is drastically different.

Todays' dechlorinators and such are pretty good, I see no need to stockpile water like I used to. However, I don't say mine is the only right way and if you're having success with yours that is great!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

zwanged said:


> Pure ammonia is decently basic...10.6 for 1 molar solution of ammonia (1.7% concentration by weight, if I'm doing the math right) Even in trace amounts that should have at least some impact on pH, no? Although I suppose the ammonia itself is much more of an immediate problem than pH itself, even if it does affect pH slightly.
> 
> -Zeke


I dig your info and in fact very accurate.With this nugget I wouldn't say ammonia has no effect.Obviously adding/having anything of a higher pH in your tank would certainly have some effect(I appreciate the correction and truely learned about ammonia).Now the measurement we take is ppm(parts per million) so I won't say it has no effect,but would think the effect is minimal.That being said I can no longer discount the idea of ammonia possibly raising your pH. 
If you choose to adjust your pH (I see no reason as fish will adjust and appreciate{need} consistency more than specifics{I keep my discus in 7.4-7.6 and they just spawned}) but cutting your source water with RO, or distilled is safest easiest(allows consitency) way to achieve a lower pH.Sorry I goofed on ammonia and pH(that's what the THINK meant) and glad to see you search more than one source as there will always be conflicting info and opinions that must be individually considered.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

PH has an impact on ammonia ions to increase its toxic compounds to fish, and by example ph below 6 the nitrification bacteria that keeps your ammonia and nitrites (most toxic compounds to fish) at zero will begin to die off, and this can cause your tank to re-cycle and kill your fish. 
The toxicity of ammonia is dictated by your ph, and the total ammonia in your tank is a combination of ammonia ions (NH4+) and ammonia (NH3). The PH of your water is the major factor for the concentration relationship of these two compounds. More ammonia (most toxic of the two compounds) will be present in Alkalin water. Where more ammonia ions (least toxic of the two compounds) will be present in Acidic water. To raise your PH in your tank will make any ammonia more toxic to your fish. It is for these reasons that PH adjustments during cycling phase of your aquarium is not recommended, and after your cycle is complete there should be no ammonia in your tank of these two compounds. It is not uncommon for persons to see Nitrate following cycle phase and is least harmful of all the three phases of ammonia. Hope this is helpful Larry


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

I thought if proper to add...it is never acceptable to subject fish to any levels of ammonia...anything above a reading of zero ppm is irratiatingly stressful to all species of fish, and a strength of 1ppm prolonged (that is just mean) for it burns the gills with damage that will not go away (heal) leaving no side affects, it's known to reduce the life expectancy. Regardless of who promotes acceptance to have any level of ammonia perhaps because the species of fish can tolerate it...it's just plain rubbish....Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

but ammonia is necessary to cycle the filter so recommendations are not acceptable level for fish,but more minimal level needed to have filter cycle.Possibly in the old days(I was there) all fish that were "used" to cycle aquariums did not live "full term" lives but many used this technique(there was no other known option) and succesfully kept the fish "used".How long a fish lives for is always a question of many considerations,and I'm sure if Zekes fish last only a year many here will say that cycling was their demise.There really are many other factors to be considered;the list is far greater than damage do to cycling,I personally feel keepers maintenance habbits(changing water,cleaning filters), choice of foods and tankmates to be the most detrimental factors the keeper does have control over. The filter has to cycle to even have a chance at healthy fish.Once cycled there should never be ammonia or nitrItes present and nitrAtes need to kept in check and at a proper level for the tanks inhabbitants(plants need nitrAte).I've cycled fish in and fishless and with fish in ;if the fish didn't die during cycle spikes they lived years.The suggestion of 1ppm ammonia max is as gentil and low(changing water at 1ppm means it averages less) as recommened to cycle timely(still could take 6-8 weeks).Longer exposure at lower rates I FEEL would be no safer for fish.The fishless cycle avoids all of this,but to play devils advocate I think the maintenance needed to cycle fish in is a good primer(mostly getting new keeper to accept changing water) and also to be an educational experience of fish keeping.Great/successful keepers aren't born,they learn as they go and hopefully don't repeat mistakes,always learning.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

People at both of my local LFS stores said it's OK to add bacteria with the fish if my tank isn't cycled. One of them said he personally doesn't like fishless cycle in principle because you're starting your tank with a problem. It seems like this topic is pretty controversial.

Fish are coloring up nicely and seem pretty active and as far as I can tell aren't voicing their complaints about the ammonia  I'm not convinced whether lower levels ammonia for longer periods are really any better than a faster cycle with higher ammonia. I'll probably opt for the former.

I intentionally picked fish for my tank that should be pretty resilient...blue acara, severum, and firemouth. Ammonia level somewhere between 0.5 and 1ppm right now. When ammona levels hits 1ppm I'll do a partial water change....and keep doing that until the tank cycles. I'm thinking it's taking a while for ammonia levels to rise because my fish are all pretty small relative to the 75 gallon volume of the tank + sump (severum=2", blue acara=3", firemouth=2.5"), there simply isn't that much waste being generated by them.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hey folks,

Remember how I said I'm using SafeStart on my tank?

Upon doing more research online it seems that i should *avoid* doing water changes for the first 2 weeks. Most people seem to be in agreement on this.

My test readings for ammonia are still pretty low. < 1ppm.

-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> Remember how I said I'm using SafeStart on my tank?
> 
> Upon doing more research online it seems that i should *avoid* doing water changes for the first 2 weeks.


I'm a strong supporter of Tetra SafeStart, HOWEVER, it is not what it claims to be, for several reasons.

You're right that changing water would kill the bacteria population. The crux of this is; TSS is the wrong kind of bacteria. So yes, you will screw up what you set out to do with TSS, but you will save your fish.

In addition, TSS is not a wonder product, which will instantly balance your tank and allow your fish to thrive. On its own, it is a temporary fix, and 1% to 100% of the bacteria contained in the bottle might already be dead.

I use TSS whenever I start a new tank, but I do it without fish in there, using an artificial source of ammonia.

As to claims that fishless cycling is doing it wrong, they are right, but they are also wrong. They are right in that you're not matching the right amount of bacteria to your fish population, they are wrong because fishless cycling is the best way to prevent exposure of your fish to toxic new tank conditions.

And Goldie, you're right, I would think differently if I had large tanks. Thankfully, I do not, and this is one reason I won't have them for a very long time.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Gizmo is correct.The bacteria your TSS supply is Heterotrphic, and the bacteria that actually support a healthy aquarium are Autotrophic.I can't spin this but read link(or look up the diff )and please reconsider water change theory you now suggest.
Nutrition in Bacteria,autotrophic Bacteria,heterotrophic Bacteria | Tutorvista.com


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Very interesting information.

However now you have me confused. What is the point of even doing SafeStart if you're just going to kill it off right away with water changes? This doesn't make sense to me. Is the point of TSS to simply smooth out ammonia / nitrite spikes so the tank cycles more slowly, making it less likely that I harm my fish?

-Zeke




Gizmo said:


> I'm a strong supporter of Tetra SafeStart, HOWEVER, it is not what it claims to be, for several reasons.
> 
> You're right that changing water would kill the bacteria population. The crux of this is; TSS is the wrong kind of bacteria. So yes, you will screw up what you set out to do with TSS, but you will save your fish.
> 
> ...


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> Can you name a single thing that TSS is good for then, besides emptying my wallet?


It's good at starting a false cycle, but not finishing it. As Coralbandit stated, TSS is heterotrophic bacteria, which floats freely in the tank and has a very short lifespan. Autotrophs are what naturally colonize the tank, and come from everywhere (some are even suspended in moisture droplets in the air), they adhere to surfaces (i.e. filter media) and not only live longer, but take more time to multiply. Adding TSS makes it appear that you have a cycled tank, and indeed it will stop some spiking of toxic ammonia and nitrite, but it is really just a crash blanket; as the heterotrophs die off, the autotrophs take over slowly.

That's why I do TSS with a fishless cycle; no need to change the water. If you change the water, you pull the heterotrophic bacteria out of the tank. It's your call; you can either let it be and hope the heterotrophs can handle the cycle for you, or you can take matters into your own hands. Given that you have already been doing PWC's, I would say continue with them.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Actually I haven't done any PWCs yet, but have been monitoring ammonia closely. It's risen slightly from 0.5 to about 0.75ppm over the last few days.

The timeline was this:

Sunday night : add juvenile firemouth + SafeStart
Tuesday night: Add juvenile severum + juvenile blue acara

What would you recommend then, given that I haven't done any PWCs? My original plan of action was just to do PWCs when ammonia hits 1ppm, which hasn't happened yet but may happen soon.

Now I'm thinking if ammonia levels stay under control I should just sit and wait...and start watching for nitrite

-Zeke



Gizmo said:


> It's good at starting a false cycle, but not finishing it. As Coralbandit stated, TSS is heterotrophic bacteria, which floats freely in the tank and has a very short lifespan. Autotrophs are what naturally colonize the tank, and come from everywhere (some are even suspended in moisture droplets in the air), they adhere to surfaces (i.e. filter media) and not only live longer, but take more time to multiply. Adding TSS makes it appear that you have a cycled tank, and indeed it will stop some spiking of toxic ammonia and nitrite, but it is really just a crash blanket; as the heterotrophs die off, the autotrophs take over slowly.
> 
> That's why I do TSS with a fishless cycle; no need to change the water. If you change the water, you pull the heterotrophic bacteria out of the tank. It's your call; you can either let it be and hope the heterotrophs can handle the cycle for you, or you can take matters into your own hands. Given that you have already been doing PWC's, I would say continue with them.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Those interested there are some stickies that cover cycling phase intended for non fish startup. And yes there must be ammonia for the cycle...you must have ammonia to start the bacteria that consumes the ammonia if that makes sense. During this phase no fish are in the tank so no harm to gills. You don't add any live stock till the ammonia is at zero, and nitrites are at zero. It is common to see some levels of Nitrate, but plants as a rule can and do control nitrates given proper conditions (not seeking to detail here). I cannot nor will to get involved in the comments made from a life fish store...they are not accountable if the fish suffer and will usually site other cause if something happens to the fish example improper water conditions, contaminated water, out of date test chemicals, and there is an unlimited list of cause they can choose from and be correct in their sittings. No one on this subject is wrong in what they believe or want to do... the reason fishless cycle was developed: to stop new tank sudden death syndrom, and offer a method to avoid harming fish and extend their lives to the fullest. It is a choice to use fishless cycle as it is to use drystart of planting the tank...but that is another subject. Larry


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> The timeline was this:
> 
> Sunday night : add juvenile firemouth + SafeStart
> Tuesday night: Add juvenile severum + juvenile blue acara
> ...


I agree that is a good idea. You could hold off on the SafeStart until you see the ammonia climb to around 1 ppm AFTER Sunday night. No need to put TSS in there until it has something to feed on. Fish don't start generating ammonia the moment they go in the tank.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I think you misread what I said. I already put in the safestart at the same time as the firemouth on Sunday 12/2, per the instructions of the fish store and consistent with the instructions on the container.

I did happen to overfeed the first few times so there probably was at least some waste. 

I'm wondering why the instructions say to add at the same time that you add the fish...That said, I don't think the TSS will completely die off instantaneously with little/no ammonia so I'm guessing there's some comfort margin.

Ammonia levels haven't been too high so I'm guessing that it's working just fine. Or i just have a very low bioload for a 75 gallon tank and it's taking time to build up.


-Zeke




Gizmo said:


> I agree that is a good idea. You could hold off on the SafeStart until you see the ammonia climb to around 1 ppm AFTER Sunday night. No need to put TSS in there until it has something to feed on. Fish don't start generating ammonia the moment they go in the tank.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Right, I did misread. You might be ok then, but watch those ammonia levels like a hawk. If you want to help things along, see if you can grab some used filter media (still wet, mind you) from your pet store or a friend. It will be seeded with a ton of autotrophs who will get to work right away on that ammonia. Used substrate can be used too, put some in a mesh bag and put it either in your filter or on the tank floor.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Sounds like a great idea. I'll check with my LFS.

On a somewhat related note: 

I haven't added any plant food to my substrate. Will it even be necessary? Should I hold off until the cycle finishes or can I do that whenever? I'm also wondering if the plant food (i'm guessing nitrates/phosphates) going to screw up my test readings during the cycle. 

I should hold off on that until much later, right?

-Zeke



Gizmo said:


> Right, I did misread. You might be ok then, but watch those ammonia levels like a hawk. If you want to help things along, see if you can grab some used filter media (still wet, mind you) from your pet store or a friend. It will be seeded with a ton of autotrophs who will get to work right away on that ammonia. Used substrate can be used too, put some in a mesh bag and put it either in your filter or on the tank floor.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

again Gizmo offers good advice(filter media...SEED) without that addition, don't be fooled by your Local Fish Store ,or the bottle they sold you(yes they touched your wallet again).The TSS is bunk in my opinion with your apllication.Possibly a seat belt with spike,but I would watch your ammonia and change when you hit 1 ppm;about 50% to lower your tank back to .5ppm.It will climb again(I'll guess faster this time) and then you could start checking for nitrItes(about 10 days in as stated in beginning{maybe even still early}).There really is no quick(easy) fix to recreating a natural cycle.The cycle you desire(mostly your fish desire) is natural and unfortunately does not come in a bottle.Very confusing?You bet! Solution in a bottle ,I'd bet not!


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

That's a very good point... Now I'm not that sure what to do...I appreciate the diversity of opinions here.

-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

goldie said:


> it could have loads of unwanted nasties on it


+1
The biggest problem would be pest snails. But that's arbitrary; I personally love my pest snails; they keep my tank clean and so long as its clean they're not breeding out of control.
The more elusive and potentially dangerous risks could be eggs from internal parasites, Ich protozoa, hydra, or others I may be missing. The way to take care of these would be a UV sterilizer, but that would zap all your heterotrophic bacteria as well, and they're kinda pricey ($50 or more).


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah, that's right. But the severum seems to be doing well now...<shrug>. 

Btw the blue acara (the biggest fish in the tank) seems pretty hyperactive, zipping up and down the tank fairly often...is this a juvenile thing and they become calmer as they mature? It also seems somewhat aggressive toward the severum and the firemouth, i'm guessing due to the size difference.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Btw, why would a partial change kill my heterotrophic bacteria? Is it because prime deactivates the ammonia and the heterotrophic bacteria starve? Or just that I have diluted them?

-Zeke




Gizmo said:


> +1
> The biggest problem would be pest snails. But that's arbitrary; I personally love my pest snails; they keep my tank clean and so long as its clean they're not breeding out of control.
> The more elusive and potentially dangerous risks could be eggs from internal parasites, Ich protozoa, hydra, or others I may be missing. The way to take care of these would be a UV sterilizer, but that would zap all your heterotrophic bacteria as well, and they're kinda pricey ($50 or more).


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> why would a partial change kill my heterotrophic bacteria?


I'm sorry, I must have misspoke. It doesn't kill them (at least, not directly), it removes them from the tank. Heterotrophs don't adhere to surfaces, they free float. So by removing water, you're removing bacteria as well.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

That makes more sense. thanks 

-Zeke



Gizmo said:


> I'm sorry, I must have misspoke. It doesn't kill them (at least, not directly), it removes them from the tank. Heterotrophs don't adhere to surfaces, they free float. So by removing water, you're removing bacteria as well.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Today during feeding i saw the severum chasing the blue acara and the firemouth..so I guess it just depends. Overall the firemouth seems the *least* aggressive , hah.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

UPDATE:

The bacteria included in safestart are NOT heterotrophic. They are autotrophic!

Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira, and Nitrospira. Look em up.

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

read up some last night on TSS. A senior member of another forum said their tank cycled(spiked nitrIte even,which was their first water change) in 10 days.If this is true possibly you should test once for nitrItes just to see.The thread also said ammonia never went over 1.5ppm.Maybe TSS isn't quite as "bunk" as I said.I hope it is good stuff for you.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi coralbandit,

Yeah...I tested for nitrite last night. Still nothing. I will keep you posted.

-Zeke



coralbandit said:


> read up some last night on TSS. A senior member of another forum said their tank cycled(spiked nitrIte even,which was their first water change) in 10 days.If this is true possibly you should test once for nitrItes just to see.The thread also said ammonia never went over 1.5ppm.Maybe TSS isn't quite as "bunk" as I said.I hope it is good stuff for you.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

as I stated in pemalink 10 of this thread ;there is no safe level of ammonia.Also we must remember that fish in cycling(while not approved or appreciated by all) has been the way of establishing aquriums before the fishless cycle was known.The poster"a senior member" stated they added TSS(tetra safe start) when they introduced their fish(9 in a twenty gallon) and their ammonia never went over 1.5ppm before they had a nitrIte spike(which was when they did their first water change) and then had nitrAtes,all within 10 days.Zeke has followed this same method(added TSS upon installing fish) and not changed water yet.A further link I found about TSS clearly said NOT to use dechlorinators that LOCKUP OR CONVERT AMMONIA(PRIME) as they held the ammonia back from inducing the cycle and only slowed or stalled cycle completely.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm not sure I'd replace a good dechlorinator with TSS(believe it is specifically for cycling).The info on TSS just said not to use a product that converted ammonia as this may screw up cycle.Once Zekes tank is cyled the use of prime(or what ever dechlorinator)would be fine and is encouraged.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi coralbandit,

I did a little reading around online on this and read that prime's ability to lock up ammonia is rather limited. I.e. it has enough capacity to lock up any ammonia etc that might be in tap water, but not likely to starve the TSS bacteria. 

Should Prime render Tetra Safe-Start useless??? • Cichlid-Forum

I had in fact added prime to my tank earlier in the day -- maybe 2 hours prior to adding the fish and the TSS, but I think I will still be OK.

Will know soon enough...time to start watching for nitrite.

-Zeke


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

TSS is hit and miss. If you buy it thinking it is going to perform miracles, you will likely be let down. One review or even a hundred positive ones are easily matched by just as many saying it is useless. It won't hurt to add, but you never know if it will help. The stuff comes in bottles that aren't temperature controlled in any way....so if there ever was beneficial bacteria ever in it....how does it stay alive if we all say, "add ammonia so your bactria doesn't stave"? If I can cycle a tank in 10 days in a fishless cycle with only ammonia, why use this?

Anti-ammonia properties of Prime do not remove the ammonia and therefore does not remove it from the biological cycle. It only makes it less toxic. So theoretically, it should not interfere with your cycle.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

If i'm seeing ammonia period and prime supposedly doesn't mess up the TSS, i wonder why I shouldn't just dose the tank with Prime during the cycle? Has anyone tried this with success? My guess is that it shouldn't hurt, but that its ability to neutralize ammonia is so limited that it won't make much difference.

-Zeke




jrman83 said:


> TSS is hit and miss. If you buy it thinking it is going to perform miracles, you will likely be let down. One review or even a hundred positive ones are easily matched by just as many saying it is useless. It won't hurt to add, but you never know if it will help. The stuff comes in bottles that aren't temperature controlled in any way....so if there ever was beneficial bacteria ever in it....how does it stay alive if we all say, "add ammonia so your bactria doesn't stave"? If I can cycle a tank in 10 days in a fishless cycle with only ammonia, why use this?
> 
> Anti-ammonia properties of Prime do not remove the ammonia and therefore does not remove it from the biological cycle. It only makes it less toxic. So theoretically, it should not interfere with your cycle.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Prime's use is to remove chlorine and chloramines. There should be no other reason. So if you add water, regardless of cycle, use it. stop worrying about what will mess up TSS and you will not have problems. Do the water changes when the conditions exist to do so and stop worrying about anything but the presence of ammonia or nitrites. This is what will kill your fish.....not anything to do with TSS.

Dosing a tank with Prime would do nothing and not sure what your line of thinking is there.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Jrman83,

I was speaking hypothetically, not saying I would actually do this.

I was just pointing out that prime's claim to deactivate ammonia (but still making it available to TSS) is really not something it does to any significant degree...if it magically did this then you could theoretically dose your tank with it during cycling to make things less toxic for the fish. 

-Zeke


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

In what I have seen on here over time it always seems that adding anything like that during a cycle tended to stall or slow things down. Prime is still a chemical. Ammonia is best taken care of with a water change....especially during the cycle.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah, agreed. I'm 1 week into cycling the tank and will probably do the first partial water change at the end of the second week, unless I see ammonia /nitrite going off the charts. So far ammonia level has remained subdued (<1ppm). No nitrites yet. 

-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

zwanged said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> The bacteria included in safestart are NOT heterotrophic. They are autotrophic!
> 
> ...


Did you read that on the bottle?

Also note, in the lower corner of the back label, it says "patent pending". Means that everything they say hasn't been proven yet.

Not saying you're right and I'm wrong or vice versa, I'm just saying that biology says autotrophs can't survive in suspended form. Heterotrophs can. If Tetra brand has found a way to cheat that process, more power to them.

And FWIW, I'm an avid TSS user too. My only advice would be not to play it up as the wonder product that it claims it is. It's a tool, nothing more.

And coralbandit, cycling with TSS has taken me at most ten days, as little as five, as indicated by testing.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

FYI it's been almost 7 days since I started the tank and still no sign of nitrite as of yesterday night. Ammonia levels have been stable between 0.5 and 1ppm. Note that on day 1 it was just the firemouth. on day 3 the blue acara + severum were added.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Update: As expected, starting to see nitrite. Ammonia levels are now approx 0.5ppm, nitrite is 0.25ppm.

-Zeke


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

Another update:

ammonia dropped to 0.25ppm, nitrite at 0.5ppm, and now seeing nitrate for the first time at 5ppm.

ALMOST there hopefully...red-spotted severum not looking so hot. A few small tears in his fins (from the blue acara bullying him) and a few spots on them. 

Also the pH has been becoming more acidic. I'm assuming it's the tannins in the driftwood dropping the pH, or is there another reason this would happen during cycling the tank?

When I started the tank pH was about 7.3. It's been becoming acidic gradually and now is 6.4-6.5ish. On the low end of the range for these fish. I'm hoping that it doesn't go too extreme...want to do a water change soon, but thinking that the initial cycling will be done soon too...

Advice? I'm at day 9 since starting the tank with TSS...

Thanks,
-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Watch the spots on the fins - might be Ich


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

on the severum, the spots are reddish not white. Inflammation? I also noticed more red coloration in the blue acara's tail (no spots, just red coloration)....not sure if that's his natural coloration which hasn't manifested itself yet or a symptom...

-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Might be a symptom of harsh water. Nitrite is more toxic than ammonia and spikes quickly.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

would low pH cause this? it doesn't look streaky on the blue acara, just evenly distributed color on the tail.

-Zeke


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

No, the low pH could possibly be from tannins, or could be from the concentration of ammonia and nitrite (both ions that affect pH), but pH in and of itself, unless it's VERY acidic or VERY basic, won't trouble a fish very much.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

I know there are quite a few tannins in the water...it's quite brown...Will do more water tests tonight.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

velvet sometimes appears "rust colored".Check into it.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

It doesn't look like the pictures...

Anyway it seems like the tank is cycled. ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 10-20ppm. 

Should I wait 1 or more days to make sure the levels remain stable, or do you think it's OK to do a partial water 20-30% water change right away? The instructions say not to do any water changes for the first 2 weeks, but the pH is pretty low....btw the ready-to-go water in my hospital tank is pH 7.2-7.4...that shouldn't be a problem right, even if the tank water is 6.2? Impact on tank pH should be pretty small (raise by 0.2-0.3?) due to the logarithmic nature of pH...correct?

-Zeke


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Regardless of impact on pH,and considering the test would indicate you are cycled;CHANGE WATER! As a twenty % only every two weeks is light.Your load is light but still should now be maintained properly.


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## zwanged (Nov 4, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> Regardless of impact on pH,and considering the test would indicate you are cycled;CHANGE WATER! As a twenty % only every two weeks is light.Your load is light but still should now be maintained properly.


Did a 25% water change. pH went up like .2 from 6.4 to 6.6, as expected...and nitrite still zero, which is good. Hopefully the fishes' condition improves from here on out now that the tank has cycled after 10 days and a water change has finally been done.

Thanks for your help!

-Zeke


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