# Is this bad?!



## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

I stocked my tank yesterday after completing my fishless cycle. By days end, two of my fancy guppies had perished. Now, there is another one who looks bad, and is laying on the bottom of the water breathing really fast. He has a white/greyish large spot below his dorsal fin. 

I have also noticed something else, and I'm not sure if it's just because I'm looking too closely now or what. I see like a different shade of color on the side of a few of my fish. I can't tell if it's the white /greyish spot that's on the guppie, or if it's just from the lighting in the tank. 

Any help would be appreciated, I don't think this guppie is going to make it much longer.

I checked my water parameters to see if anything was out of whack, 0 ammonia and nitrites and 5 nitrates.


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## CAM (Jan 27, 2013)

Might just be an acclimation issue. 

How many guppies did you add ?


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

I added 5, and drip acclimated for an hour. I'm attempting to add pics but I'm having trouble


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Here are pictures. The fancy guppy looks bad, and I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid about the danio glofish (probably). All of the other fish look fine, and since the other two that died last night were fancy guppies, I'm assuming it's something that's wrong with them (even though my other two look absolutely fine and happy)


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

Most heavily retailed guppy strains are genetically inferior. They've been overbred and inbred. They are disease magnets that acclimate poorly and that's why they die. It's as simple as that. If you want to get serious about guppies I recommend you buy stock from a reputable breeder. 

I'm sorry you're guppies did so poorly. I do hope you'll try again. There are good guppies to be had...you just have to find them. I raised and sold fancy guppies for decades and enjoyed keeping them very much. They are one of my favorite freshwater fish.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Goby said:


> Most heavily retailed guppy strains are genetically inferior. They've been overbred and inbred. They acclimate poorly and that's why they die. It's as simple as that. If you want to get serious about guppies I recommend you buy stock from a reputable breeder.
> 
> I'm sorry you're guppies did so poorly. I do hope you'll try again. There are good guppies to be had...you just have to find them. I raised and sold fancy guppies for decades and enjoyed keeping them very much. They are one of my favorite freshwater fish.


I saved time by going to petsmart instead of the lfs, I'm gonna make a trip out to lfs today and get some guppies...will they be fine adding new ones, and not pick on the new guys?


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> I saved time by going to petsmart instead of the lfs, I'm gonna make a trip out to lfs today and get some guppies...will they be fine adding new ones, and not pick on the new guys?


Honestly? I'd give your current guppies some time to acclimate and recover. They may or may not be disease ridden. If they are, the stress of adding additional fish will tax their immune systems further. Plus, you don't want to expose new fish to a potentially contagious environment.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Goby said:


> Honestly? I'd give your current guppies some time to acclimate and recover. They may or may not be disease ridden. If they are, the stress of adding additional fish will tax their immune systems further. Plus, you don't want to expose new fish to a potentially contagious environment.



So it could be a disease and not just acclimation/inbreeding issues? Ill wait it out and keep an eye on the community. How long do you guys think I should wait to make sure its not a disease.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> So it could be a disease and not just acclimation/inbreeding issues? Ill wait it out and keep an eye on the community. How long do you guys think I should wait to make sure its not a disease.


Stress and disease often go hand-in-hand when it comes to tropical fish. Many healthy fish are carriers of disease but the disease doesn't take hold until they are stressed. That said, it's also possible that your guppies are simply stressed and that they'll recover without a disease process. 

If I were you I'd just wait and watch. How long to wait is a tough question to answer. Are you familiar with guppy behavior? And what tropical fish diseases looks like? If not, check out some videos on You Tube. This is also a good source of information.  I'd personally be comfortable adding more guppies a few days after my current guppies all started looking and acting like happy guppies. I know that might sound like forever when you're anxious to get things going post cycle. Nothing about this hobby happens quickly, which has always been a challenge for me.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

I am not familiar with guppies,or any tropical fish. This is my first tank. The guppies all look fine, as do the rest of the fish in the tank. I am going to wait at least a week then if everything is good I am gonna add two more guppies and two German blue rams. I am researching diseases now just to get a background on them.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> I am not familiar with guppies,or any tropical fish. This is my first tank. The guppies all look fine, as do the rest of the fish in the tank. I am going to wait at least a week then if everything is good I am gonna add two more guppies and two German blue rams. I am researching diseases now just to get a background on them.


That sounds like a good plan. 

Tropical Fish keeping often gets off to a rough start so don't feel alone. You'll have failures at first and a few 10 years down the road too. It's the nature of the hobby so prepare yourself for that. That said, if you learn from your mistakes (and the mistakes of others, namely the retailers)...success will come quickly. I've kept fish all my life and overall the hobby has given more than it's taken in terms of enjoyment.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Goby said:


> That sounds like a good plan.
> 
> Tropical Fish keeping often gets off to a rough start so don't feel alone. You'll have failures at first and a few 10 years down the road too. It's the nature of the hobby so prepare yourself for that. That said, if you learn from your mistakes (and the mistakes of others, namely the retailers)...success will come quickly. I've kept fish all my life and overall the hobby has given more than it's taken in terms of enjoyment.



Its already well worth the stress its put me through. I've learned a ton, and I have something that I enjoy. I find myself just staring into the tank watching the fish live their lives. Its quite relaxing and just overall fulfilling to see them in there


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> Its already well worth the stress its put me through. I've learned a ton, and I have something that I enjoy. I find myself just staring into the tank watching the fish live their lives. Its quite relaxing and just overall fulfilling to see them in there


Oh yes, I agree with everything you just wrote! You made me smile.


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## marinedepot10 (Apr 18, 2013)

I totally agree with Goby. You should avoid adding any more fish in such conditions. I think you should wait at-least for 10 days.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

marinedepot10 said:


> I totally agree with Goby. You should avoid adding any more fish in such conditions. I tjink you should wait atleast for 10 days.


I'm waiting until next Sunday. If there aren't any problems by then ill get two more guppies and two blue rams.


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## marinedepot10 (Apr 18, 2013)

Yes wait and see. And what is the exact condition now?


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## sshaeh (Dec 17, 2012)

I have no luck at all with petco, or petsmart fish, I try to buy my fish from people who know fish.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

sshaeh said:


> I have no luck at all with petco, or petsmart fish, I try to buy my fish from people who know fish.




I have a lfs about half hour away, petsmart was just closer. I'm going to lfs from now on...


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

marinedepot10 said:


> Yes wait and see. And what is the exact condition now?


Are you talking about water parameters?


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## marinedepot10 (Apr 18, 2013)

DeJay126 said:


> Are you talking about water parameters?


I am asking about both water parameters and condition of the fish.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

marinedepot10 said:


> I am asking about both water parameters and condition of the fish.



All the fish are active, no spots on them, they're a perfect community right now. 

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates -5
Ph - 6.2


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't want to say I disagree with any of the previous post but, genetically screwed up fish don't grow into the beauties you put up in pics!Possibly the conditions at petco were all crap(no big surprise),but to say the fish itself is to blame,then I'd like an explanation of how they grew to such good looking adults?I don't disagree with inbreeding and inferior stock, but those things don't USAULLY make it to store shelfs,and healthy appearing fish don't die in one day without cause.I'm no fan fan of petco(so I'll just quietly blame them{you should ask when the fish came in?}).
If you still have any guppies left when you go to add more be aware that you should add 3-5 so no new fish is picked on.
I'll go out on a limb and say disease don't develope in 1 day and you don't need to wait it out for that ,but I would double,triple check your quality,and for safe measure do the same test on the water your fish come in before putting in your tank.


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## marinedepot10 (Apr 18, 2013)

Looks good. Wait till Sunday before adding any more fish.
Shall you face any problem let us all know.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> I don't want to say I disagree with any of the previous post but, genetically screwed up fish don't grow into the beauties you put up in pics!Possibly the conditions at petco were all crap(no big surprise),but to say the fish itself is to blame,then I'd like an explanation of how they grew to such good looking adults?I don't disagree with inbreeding and inferior stock, but those things don't USAULLY make it to store shelfs,and healthy appearing fish don't die in one day without cause.I'm no fan fan of petco(so I'll just quietly blame them{you should ask when the fish came in?}).
> If you still have any guppies left when you go to add more be aware that you should add 3-5 so no new fish is picked on.
> I'll go out on a limb and say disease don't develope in 1 day and you don't need to wait it out for that ,but I would double,triple check your quality,and for safe measure do the same test on the water your fish come in before putting in your tank.



Yeah, I these guppies really are beautiful fish. I don't think it was anything that had to do with disease either, but I would rather be safe and wait a few days than add more to the tank. And I actually meant to say 3 guppies lol...I don't want any getting picked on!


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Do you guys thisnk I should use phup to raise the ph? I'm not sure if the blue rams will be good in a tank with as low of ph as mine...but not real sure. I just know ppl say they are very sensitive.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I do think your pH is low but would recommend using crushed coral in a filter bag to help buff it up.Most (if not all)of the liquid buffers are bunk and cause more trouble then good.I have GBR in my 180 with a pH of 7.6(I don't{won't}buff ever) and they are fine.I also have some in a species only tank that I cut with RO/DI water(well under 7.0 pH) and really notice little difference.The reason you place the crushed coral in a filter bag is so you can remove it as it is possible for crushed coral to raise (even) your pH to 8.2!I'll guess that the pH is the culprit in the demise of your guppies as changing them from where they were(I'll guess7.2{for no good reason}) to 6.2 is a very drastic change.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

If I use tufa rock the ph goes to 7.4, but how can I safely acclimate my fish to the higher ph of the water with tufa rock in it? Also...does crushed coral keep the ph up or do I need to constantly keep adding it when it drops? Tufa rock held steady at 7.4 and I can just keep it in there till it decinegrates and add more...right?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Note in this post/link that low pH has adverse effects on cycling.http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/nitrogen-cycle-43369.html


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> Note in this post/link that low pH has adverse effects on cycling.http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/nitrogen-cycle-43369.html


I know, that's why I originally used the tufa rock from in the last post ...to raise ph for cycling.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Check the water quality of the fish when you bring them home.Test the pH so you know how long to acclimate them.I do this with all my salts,but I already the know the water from where I purchase fish from(been buying from them for 30 + years).


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> I know, that's why I originally used the tufa rock from in the last post ...to raise ph for cycling.


It got you to 6.2?!!! Where is your water normally at?
Go crushed coral as directed.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> It got you to 6.2?!!! Where is your water normally at?
> Go crushed coral as directed.


No, the ph is naturally at 6.2 and when I added the tufa it shot up to 7.4 overnight and stayed there. Before adding fish I changed water and took out tufa to get ph back to normal. If 6.2 won't kill my fish I'm not gonna change it... But if its going to be bad in the long run I will raise it...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

6.2 is at the low end for anything(including discus).I normally say fish will adjust,so maybe you need to acclimate slower(like 2-4 hours) or raise it up a little.It really depend on the water the fish are already in.You should test the water your fish come in so you know what you're expecting of your fish.PH is logarithmic(I beleive) in that each .1 is ten times greater than before,so going from anything 1.0 pH in change in even a day is hazardous for fish,or at least stressful(this I'm not positive about but do believe I've read before).


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Do you have any experience with tufa rock? I have a piece about the size of a palm that raised my ph to 7.4 overnight...how much should I add to the water to safeley acclimate the fish tonight?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

coralbandit said:


> It got you to 6.2?!!! Where is your water normally at?
> Go crushed coral as directed.


 I had advised him to add the tufa rock (it was what his lfs had available) to help his cycle. Told him to remove it because his ph was 6.4 out of tap and gbrs and tetras would love it. If he adds the tufa back in his ph goes to 7.4


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> Do you have any experience with tufa rock? I have a piece about the size of a palm that raised my ph to 7.4 overnight...how much should I add to the water to safeley acclimate the fish tonight?


 Place the rock in the tank for an hour then remove, tomorrow a couple of hours etc for the week. Before I changed it I would check lfs water parameters if they are on the same water as you the ph should match without adjusting.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> Do you have any experience with tufa rock? I have a piece about the size of a palm that raised my ph to 7.4 overnight...how much should I add to the water to safeley acclimate the fish tonight?


Never even heard of it to be honest.But if you can put it in and take it out go for it!Have it in till you get to desired pH(7.2 or 7.4 will be fine) and then remove it.Keep an eye on ph or give it time to see how high it will get with the rock.Don't let it get much above 7.8 before removing it and watch your levels after.Swings in pH are pretty brutal on fish which is why most liquid buffers are bad because of "rebound".You don't want your pH to go up and down ,you need to be able to keep it stable.
If you balance your tank then Iwould use the rock in prepping water ahead of time for water changes and never need to put it in and take it out.
Prep water(however much you change)with rock in it an see whatpH yourr new water is at.Try to get it to your desired level.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

dalfed said:


> Place the rock in the tank for an hour then remove, tomorrow a couple of hours etc for the week.



If this was your tank, would you keep it at 6.4 or raise it? That's all I need to know!  ill take your word


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

I would not change my ph, take extra time acclimating new fish but once you start changing you always have to keep at it.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

dalfeds info is always good,and I'll go back to where I say I normally don't recommend trying to change pH(like he said never ending{why I said I never will}).So I am with him in saying again to take longer(much) in acclimating your new fish.But definately check the water they come in so you know what your up against.Navigator Black always said we all have different water ,even just blocks down the road.You never know unless you test.Test the water your fish come in(not necessarily the water they were in before arriving at lfs(which leads to WAY TO MANY CHANGES for most fish in under 1 week).


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## nate2005 (Apr 24, 2013)

I wouldn't try messing with your ph. Just acclimate slower. If you happen to have any driftwood I would take it out though.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Dalf and bandit, thanks a bunch guys. I'm sorry for asking so many questions on here...I'm just trying to learn and do things right for my fish!! Thanks so much for the info and help!


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

I agree with Goby, keeping fish is a lot of fun. I've had tropical fish for 20 years, some fish make it some don't. I had a dolphin nose fish one time and he jumped out of the tank, and it happened with a second fish. My tank has a hood on it. I just gave up on the little critters, some fish I have good luck with some I don't. It's just part of the hobby. Good luck with your tank!


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

DeJay126 said:


> Yeah, I these guppies really are beautiful fish. I don't think it was anything that had to do with disease either, but I would rather be safe and wait a few days than add more to the tank. And I actually meant to say 3 guppies lol...I don't want any getting picked on!


Just an FYI DeJay…because I’d like you to understand why the most beautiful Fancy Guppies are sometimes the most susceptible to failed acclimation and disease. 

First off, just know that “Old School” Fancy Guppies would have done a running cannonball into your 6.2 pH water, flipped you the bird on the way down, gotten pregnant, given birth, and ate their babies by now. 

That said, reputable breeders of Modern Day Fancy Guppies are well schooled on not just the genetic influence of linebreeding (a good thing if you know what you’re doing), but they also have concerns about the negative genetic mutations that have evolved by consistently selecting linebred breeding stock based on color and pattern first, conformity second, and vitality last. That very practice, an industry trend turned standard, has led to stunningly beautiful Fancy Guppies with low thresholds for stress and disease. So much so, that to increase profit margins, it’s become necessary to rear the Fanciest strains of fry in near sterile conditions…environments that prevents them from developing resilient immune systems capable of fighting off common disease. 

$ It does keep them looking gorgeous though…for just long enough. $ 

With that, those who rear Fancy fry in near sterile environments with the intention of marketing them to retail chains as spectacularly colored immunodeficient adults, are not reputable breeders. The physiological processes that are triggered inside those fish the instant their pristinely colored fins hit Petco…aka regulating responses meant to protect them from sudden change and disease…are delayed and inadequate. That delay…a new glitch in their evolution…is what kills some during the first acclimation. The physiological processes retriggered, interrupted, and depleted the next day when the fish are renetted, rebagged, and reacclimated to another new environment, (your tank), kills more...but just the ones that should have been eliminated via natural selection in the first place, as fry, regardless of their pretty tails. The surviving fish are left susceptible to disease throughout the remainder of the acclimation process…for a 2nd time…a process that can’t be completed in 3 days by even the strongest fish on Earth. But it can be completed in 10 or so days by the fish that were strong enough to go from sterile grow-out tanks, to diseased Petco tanks, to your cozy tank. 

That’s the stage the remainder of your fish are at now, and since disease doesn’t develop in 1 day, you need to wait it out. Fish on Sunday is a reasonable plan.


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## DeJay126 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thank you very much goby. That makes so much sense.


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