# Kio angel breeding journal



## coralbandit

So about a month or more ago my kio angels spawned in my 180g.They laid a massive amount of eggs that were eaten by the next day(my 180 is not the place to plan a family).
I moved them to a 33 gallon long(48"x12"x12") below my pair of discus,to help their efforts.
Today finally they have laid eggs again.I have no confirmation of a male female pair, but they due get along well with no other company.They laid a fairly massive amount of eggs on the slate!

So since the discus are in recovery mode(much deserved) we can now see how this turns out?
Cam,I told you good food and change water,that's what I attribute this to.I am indeed lucky,and in my aging and wisdom I'll take luck over being good any day.
My partners and I have long disputed the merit of being lucky over being good,and I'll admit for years I said I'd rather be good than lucky.Bad things ,diffaculties ,unforseen obstacles can cause those who are good issue.Lucky people are just that!I'm glad I get help from many and know "a little",but I'm thrilled to be lucky.
I will watch eggs and keep you all up on these two!Here we go!


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## SueD

So you are going to see if they will parent raise rather than pull the slate? It's a sight to see for sure. Mine did it once for only a short time. Three days after the fry were free swimming, they started to pick them off. But while they were wrigglers, they moved them a few times, and as some started to fall off the leaf they were stuck to, the parents went after them and put them back. It was fun to watch.

Good luck with these!


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## coralbandit

I actually just got a 2.5 g tank ready if I were to pull the discus eggs.I was thinking I would seperate the male discus due to them eating eggs and then try pulling eggs.
This is the first set of eggs for the kio in their own tank,and I'm not really in this for the numbers(I have too many tanks for any of you to believe this if you choose not to),but yeah,I'm going to go for natural and give them more than one shot before I impose my will over them.I think seeing them tend the fry,and possibly raise any fry will be greater than having a bunch to trade to lfs.
Don't get me wrong I would love to trade them to lfs, but not through greater effort than changing water and a fry tank or two.


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## susankat

Congrats on the eggs. Hope the parents do a great job.


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## coralbandit

Well the last time(the first time) they layed eggs in the 180 they were gone the next day.The eggs remain today so that is a better sign for them on their second shot.
I won't give these two as many chances as the discus have got,but will wait this batch out just to see how these two due as parents.
I do have a 2.5g tank ready to artificially hatch eggs when the time comes.I would really like to raise something besides swordtails,and feel confident that I can manage it without great sacrafice.


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## CAM

Awesome, Tom! 

Agree with your decision to keep the parents in the tank with the eggs in hope of being able to witness them parenting their fry.

Can you post a picture of the breeding pair in the thread? Would love to see them. Thanks!


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## coralbandit

The first picture is the pair the male is on the left while the female "gaurds"eggs.
The second picture is just female and eggs.
The third is the male.I can easily tell him from her by his black on the head,and he is developing his hump on his head.
There seems to be like 10x more eggs that are white already than the discus ever had ,but the angels really seemed to lay like 10x more eggs,so maybe thats just how it all goes.


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## CAM

Thanks.... beautiful fish!

Between these and your Discus, you have very good taste in species to keep. Not to mention the gorgeous and stately fish you recommended for my tank.


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## coralbandit

Thanks Chris,a well kept aquarium is a work of art and the fish and plants the paint.
In the last 30+ years I had some special fish and learned or found many beautiful fish ,that I do appreciate.The trick is getting beauties that can be housed together.


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## CAM

Well stated, Tom.

After your previous breeding thread, I'm sure my third tank will be a discus tank. Can there be a more beautiful freshwater species?

And I get so much enjoyment out of changing water and maintaing the tanks.... knowing I am making a comfy and healthy home for my little friends who depend on me.

Just can't believe I went nearly 30 years before getting back into the hobby. But 23 years of moving around in the Air Force is part of the reason.


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## Berylla

Koi Angels are very pretty. Looking forward to seeing the babies.


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## coralbandit

So although all eggs remain today,95% of them are a fuzzy fungas mess!
Fortunately I'm well aquainted with not succeeding on the first(or how ever many)attempt.My water quality is up to snuff,but feel I would have changed alot more water if I had a clue it was their time!So I will change a large amount of water and scrub down inside of tank in prep for their next attempt.
Although it was a month or more ago since they last layed eggs(the first time),my discus did the same thing(having a month pass inbetween first set and second),and proceeded to lay eggs every 7 days or so after the second set.So I will now prepare and treat tank accordingly as an active breeding enviroment.
I don't think any of these eggs will be any good.


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## Berylla

Too bad! Do you usually add chemicals to keep the fungus away or are water changes adequate?


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## coralbandit

I have basically had 0 success at getting eggs to hatch,but this is first time for these two in their own breeding tank.I am aware of methylene blue,and proper dosing or even hydrogen peroxide.I'm sure my massive water changes won't make the difference in themself , but feel that this is a first thing first approach.
I'm also ,beside the hump on would be male, not 100% that I don't have two females.If I saw them spawn ,as I did with the discus then I could move in a more certain direction.I must just assume I have a pair(M&F) and do the best I can for them.I may very well move right to MB in tank on next set of eggs and then if no success move to artificially hatching eggs.
This is only a hobby(that I greatly enjoy)and have little issues with keeping fish healthy and to live long lifes,so the challenge of breeding and raising fry of anything that wants to spawn for me is welcome and I try to continue my learning of what is needed.This seems sometimes slow and frustrating ,but until I actually lose a fish(they die),I do believe I will get another chance on improvement and eventual success.
Any input or advice is GREATLY appreciated.


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## Berylla

I was just looking at Angelsplus.com site and they use Acriflavin in their breeding tanks
Fish Antibiotic Medication

I've used this drug for my QT tank for new fish that are sensitive to quickcure type chemicals, such as corycats and plecos. It's very mild. Here is the description from the Angelsplus website:

Acriflavin Neutral 100% This product has a wide variety of uses. Commonly used against bacteria, both external and systemic types. It is very good when used against fungus and is also used for many protozoans, especially odinium (velvet). It is frequently used as a quarantine bath for newly acquired fish. We find this a very good alternative to methylene blue for hatching fish eggs. Caution: It will kill plants, so it is advisable to use a separate treatment tank.

Dose: To make stock solution, combine 20 grams of powder with 8 ounces (1 cup) of distilled water. Then use 1 tsp of stock solution to each 10 gallons of tank water. Use about half that on sensitive fish. Replace any removed by regular water changes. Remove with activated carbon after 7-10 days. For ornamental fish use only.


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## coralbandit

Great link to be kept for all sorts of future issues and recommendations.
Thanks,Tom


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## coralbandit

So the angels laid eggs today.The eggs are widely scattered on a flower pot this time.I have kept up on water changes and cleaning tank but these two create alot of waste.I vacced tank again just today after eggs and the male was very defensive towards the vac(good sign).I added fresh clean waer and 1 teaspoon of methylene blue per 10 gallons which turned the tank a nicer dark blue.So we'll be changing water again tomorrow and see how this batch turns out.


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## coralbandit

So eggs have been eaten.No big suprise or shock to my system at this point of time.I was fully ready to remove eggs to a small 2 1/2 gallon tank, but since they laid eggs on flower pot instead of slate the flower pot would not fit in the tiny tank.
My reading of "artificial hatching" has eggs being placed in very small vessels so even though I could have come up with a larger tank I really wanted to attempt to follow others experience.
If the next time eggs are laid on slate they will come out and I will attempt artificial hatching.
As I mentioned also they really scatered the eggs on the flower pot not a tight "knit" string of eggs like both times before.I find that a little odd ,or a sign of something I don't understand completely.The angels even seemed to be tending the slate they originally laid eggs on the first time in breeding tank,and paying no attention to the flower pot.
So until next eggs ,I wait.


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## SueD

You can also try adding a large leaf plant or two and removing other choices for them. A leaf is easy to remove and will fit in the 2.5 gal. Mine always lay their eggs on a large anubias I have. I pulled the eggs once and also used a 2.5 gal. 

Out of about 50-60 eggs which got to free swimming, I ended up with 6 fully making it. But I wasn't really trying too hard, and should have changed the water more often early on. I did start changing it every day and sometimes 2X a day when I got down to about 8-10 of them. I also wouldn't have had any place to move that many as they grew.


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## Berylla

I've never tried to raise fry of my discus, so I'm only stating what I've observed with successful discus breeding:

1. RO water remineralized, daily water changes
2. 20 - 30 gallon breeder (your tank is really small)
3. lots of aeration
4. water flow/movement over eggs. 
5. meth blue egg stage

Discus Hans, a well-known seller/breeder of discus, just developed breeding system. I can't see why some of the ideas couldn't be adapted for angels.

Discus Hans artificial breeding pipe.....................


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## coralbandit

My discus pair are in a 55 with straight RO remineralised and changed daily(50%) temp 82.
The angels are in a 33 long(48x12) with RO cut with tap to produce aprox.7pH.Their water gets changed also at 50%daily and their temp is 76.I did 1 teaspoon MB per 10 gallons(3 teaspoons) and it did produce a nice dark blue.
The eggs were going to go in a 2 1/2 gallon to hatch and possibly stay for 3-7 days before going to next size(10 or 15).The small tank in the beginning is so the fry have ease in finding food and not be too deep for them.It also allows almost total waterchange capability several times daily.


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## coralbandit

So the angels have laid eggs again today.


I won't deny I'm really in the beginning of my learning curve with these two.
Last time the eggs were eaten,but were not laid so well(tight neat rows or as many as this time).So I really don't have any inclination to anything but observe.I'll hope for the best,but that doesn't seem to be the way things have rolled lately.


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## coralbandit

So this thread may be short lived!As of today 95% of the eggs have turned white!Since this is only the fourth time eggs ave been laid and none have ever hatched(they were always eaten in 1 or 2 days),I need to strongly wonder if I have a true pair(male & female) or 2 females? The water quality would be within reason(for breeding) with some methylene blue (not full dose),so the turning of white in such great % makes me think I have two females.I only got two when I got them(I know not the right way to get pairs,but had no plans on them breeding).So I think they may return to the 180g and possibly I'll add a couple more(2 or 3) that just arrived at #1 LFS and are of equall size, or be happy with 2 females.Not sure really? 
Any input is appreciated.


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## coralbandit

Lots of eggs this am.If there is a large majority of white(unfertalized) eggs this evening then I will assume they are two females and probably return them to the 180.We'll see?


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## coralbandit

So I am unclear with these two as of this evening.It would seem that 10-15% of the eggs are white right now.I would expect more if none were fertalized(two females)?I will wait till tomorrow and see how the eggs are doing if they don't eat them before that.


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## CAM

Always look forward to your updates, Tom. Thanks!

I guess it's very possible none are fertilized and some turn white earlier than others. I'll hope that's not the case though. Just dying to see some of your fry. But I bet not nearly as much as you.


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## coralbandit

At least my swordtails(a simple fish to breed) don't mess with me.I have about 400-500 ranging from todays new arrivals to 3 month olds.Really need to get some of them to the LFS soon.I never got the discus or angels with the thought of breeding them,but when oppurtunity knocks,you got to answer.I didn't really even get the swords to breed, but they progressed me into breeding.I can't help now always thinking of breeding anything I can get.One of my goals in life ,and now fish is to always give back back more than I take.I really only need like 10 discus and three angels to pull this off,but boy,they're not making it easy.


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## CAM

That's a very admirable way to approach fish-keeping, Tom. And you have certainly lived by it regarding swordtails ..... and then some! Wow.


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## coralbandit

It would appear ALL eggs were unfertalized as they all turned white over the last three days(I doubt it is a water quality issue).So unless my LFS has gotten in some larger kio angels this week(they get them often,but sell very quickly{like 1 1/2 days}),I will return the pair to my 180.If I can get another or a couple(my wife really likes them) then I will try to pair the 2 I have up with newcomers.


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## coralbandit

So I'm leaning towards the two of guys being gals.LFS did not have any kio angels ,so They are getting moved back to the 180 for a while.This opens up a 4' 33g tank for?
Thank everyone who followed and maybe in the future I'll be able to bring this thread back.


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## coralbandit

Just moved these two back to a 55 tonight!They were really after each other and making all the other fish really nervous.So we'll see what they do this time?


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## coralbandit

Eggs on slate this a.m.
Not sure still that these two are a pair as I did not witness the two of them while laying eggs.So just going to have to see if the eggs don't fungus up,from being unfertalized.


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## SueD

So now that the eggs are on the slate are you going to move them to the small tank?


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## coralbandit

No I think I will let the angels tend them.They didn't eat the eggs all the time (like my discus) the eggs often got fungas on them as if they were unfertalized. I really thought they were acting "ready" the other nite when I moved them ,but it really is still a coin toss whether they are male and female or 2 girls?
My LFS got some really nice kio angels in this week but they were all on hold(special ordered) and they said they have had "lots of trouble getting good healthy ones lately"!I was bummed since these 2 were in the 55 I thought it would be the perfect time to sneak them into the 180.They were decent sized(not real small) and wife really likes them,but I guess I'm still waiting ?


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## coralbandit

No sooner than I speak,then one of the angels eats the eggs!I really think they are 2 girls,and wish I could have gotten the others I saw.These two are better behaved in the 55 alone then in the 180 with all my other fish,so I really don't know what to do with them now.It makes no sense for them to be seperated ,if they're not breeding, but they were really upsetting my tank.?


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## coralbandit

OK I THINK I can confirm these two are females as there are a ton of eggs again this a.m. On the same slate with the same angel near them,but she is the dominant of the two.
Can angels lay eggs (alot 200-300) for two nights in a row?
and now I am at a loss what two do with them.They really don't like each other,and I really only run 1 display tank of suitable size for them(my 180) and they were really agitating everyone the other night.I also don't think it is fair to keep them together in the 55 alone as the dominant one really gets to push the other one around,although she hides alot(this isn't good I know).


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## majerah1

Can you not offer one up to your local club?


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## coralbandit

Great idea!I would rather trade back to LFS for another shot at a male.I actually just placed an eggcrate divider in the 55 to help them out.At least they aren't going to at each other for now.


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## choutman

great thread I always learn a lot from them I just started keeping angels they are not of breeding size so I don't have anything sorry...but I enjoyed reading this one,thanks


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## SueD

Mine haven't bred again now for a few months, but the last time they did I pulled the eggs and got 6 to survive to a size large enough to turn over to LFS (should have changed the water more in the fry tank). 

I found that mine were only mean to each other just before spawning and just after. Lots of lip locking, etc. They seemed to battle over whose turn it was to fan the eggs!

Other than those times, they are peacefully co-existing in just a 25 gal tank. My male is a koi, also. Here's two pics - one of them together a while ago and the linked photo is just the male.

http://www.photoshop.com/users/SEDonnelly/albums/f1386acde9c748e59e2e09d9db582f47


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## coralbandit

So I did lose one of the original two kio angels.I definately think they were both females.This was a couple weeks ago.No sign of illness,just dead one morning.I did also mange to get 4 others and "sneak" them in the 180 way back last year while the two girls were in the 55.
Well I have eggs in the 180 today from what I will foolishly geuss is a male female pair.
Got nowhere to seperate them for breeding right now so no new angels in the near future,but the breeidng(laying of eggs) goes on.Just a follow up on old thread.


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## jrman83

So I don't mean to ask to be a smartass, but do you mean Koi? I'm not familiar enough with all the species of Angels to know if there is a Kio Angel? Never heard of one either.


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## coralbandit

Koi angelfish.It's just black white and yellow.Who knows how they come up with names?
AOL Search


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