# First post. Cleaning gravel in a planted tank?



## Secondgen (Feb 26, 2010)

Hello all, I have been on here for awhile, but have never posted. I have a 20 gallon standard low tech aquarium with anacharis, wisteria, and java moss right now. The lighting for this tank is two 15 watt 6500k cfl's. I have an aquaclear 30 for mechanical filtration. My fish have been having some serious issues here lately as far as ich, and even death. They seem to have been hanging out at the top alot. Today I noticed planaria on the glass, and I know this is a sign of uneaten food and alot of feces. I was under the impression that a planted tank does not get its gravel cleaned as the plants use the nutrients for growth. Is this correct? Granted my plants have not been looking so great lately as well. Any suggestions, or thoughts would be appreciated. I am a noob when it comes to planted tanks.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

what I would do is get a 5g bucket, put tank water in it then add the fish, if on hard floor use a towel under it for insulation. Then do another bucket half full for your plants, then vacuum the gravel like normal. Dont mess with the biological filtration and you will be fine.


what substrate do you use? 
What fish do you have for a cleaning crew?


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## Secondgen (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks for the fast reply. I have clay gravel for substrate, and for cleaning crew I have a small pleco, and ramshorn snails. Any reason for removing everything?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

To clean it well id remove it all and just replant before you fill the tank again. Another reason is if its that bad on the gravel imagine what its like inside the gravel. The fish are better off in the buckets during this process. 

You can put your filter on the bucket and keep it running or just shut it off and dont turn it on until the tank is full and everything has settled for the most part. I would look into getting some corydora catfish to add to the crew, possibly some oto's as well. Dwarf plecos eat alot on real driftwood then they do stuff on the gravel, he isnt doing much to keep the bottom clean.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I've got a 30 gallon tall planted tank, and I had to vacuum the gravel weekly for the first 4 months till the root systems of my plants were established. A great way to test if your plants are doing what you want them to do is to test your ammonia levels and nitrate levels throughout the week. If the ammonia levels are staying low (<0.25 ppm) and your nitrates are climbing your nitrogen cycle is established but your fish are generating waste faster than the plants are consuming the nutrients from it. If you're getting ammonia spikes, your tank needs to be cycled. Are you doing weekly partial water changes, and do you have a gravel vacuum?


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## Secondgen (Feb 26, 2010)

Yes I do weekly water changes, and I have a gravel vac. I really appreciate the help. Looks like I will be tearing it apart, and starting fresh. So as far as gravel cleaning? I should still do this with my water changes?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

to an extent, if you get a cleaning crew you wont have to gravel vac anything. My pwc;s are down to just draining water. I only clean my gravel when I tear out all the plants and wood to do a head count on the fish and check how thick the gravel has gotten.


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## Secondgen (Feb 26, 2010)

That makes sense WhiteGlove. Thank alot. I am looking forward to getting this tank turned around. My favorite part is designing the aquascape so no problems there.


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

I've found that if you put enough plants in it, and get a small bottom cleanup crew like ghost or cherry shrimp, you'll hardly ever have to bother


I haven't vac'ed the gravel, or even done a water change in my planted 10 gallon for over a month, and the system pretty much takes care of itself, and the water parameters are perfect 

I just feed the fish, and trim the plants every once in a while and remove some older dead leaves that break free, and rinse the filter in the HOB unit every so often ( I haven't _replaced_ the filter yet either, just rinsed it out once)


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## Secondgen (Feb 26, 2010)

Very nice lookin little tank Automatic-Hydromatic. What kinda plants do you have in there?


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

thanks 

2 Amazon Swords, 7 or 8 small Argentine Swords, 2 Java Ferns, 1 Lace Java Fern, 3 random Aponogetons, 2 Anacharis bunches, 2 small Red Ludwigia strands, and 2 small Wisterias (the Red Ludwigia and the Wisteria came as hitch-hikers when I picked up the Anacharis at the LFS)

All very undemanding; I keep them lit with 2 15 watt CLFs for 12 hours a day (9am to 9pm), and have some small vitamin tabs pushed into the gravel for them that last about a month at a time. Other than that, I just remove the dead and decaying leaves, and they thrive, the fish love them, and I love they way the keep my water stable 

I just started using the vitamin tabs with them less than a week ago, and they've exploded with vibrant color  the Ferns have really taken a liking to them, and have started to replicate, and the Apongeton on the right has easily added 2" to it's longest leaves and has sprouted another flower bloom in the past 3 days alone, lol


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## Chillwill007 (Aug 20, 2010)

Hey automatic could you tell me which one is the argentine sword? My wife its from argentina and I want to kinda get her into the tank by puting somethings in there for like that sword and a school of bloodfin tetras since they are from there. Tank really looks good by the way


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

they're the tall ones in front of the log; tall stalks, and the last 2 or 3 inches is the leaf. they grow like wild-fire  picked up a single tube of them at the local Petco for $5, and it split into the 7 or 8 pieces, and those have sprouted a ton of stalks and leaves!

they can get pretty larger; over a foot tall, but mine are still 5 to 6 inches tall at max

also known as echinodorus argentinensis


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## Chillwill007 (Aug 20, 2010)

Nice thanks for the quick reply they look beautiful


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

You don't need to tear down the tank. Unless you are heavily planted, you can just plunge the gravel vac into the substrate and get close to the the plants without harm.

For example, with the majority of my tanks, I only gravel the open areas when I find the TDS readings get high (or high to me). Granted, I keep shrimp so I pay more attention to this than the average Joe.

But simply put, you don't need to tear everything apart to do a gravel vac. You can move decor but I would not uproot any plants and certainly not displace any fish to do it.

That's just me.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

James0816 said:


> You don't need to tear down the tank. Unless you are heavily planted, you can just plunge the gravel vac into the substrate and get close to the the plants without harm.
> 
> For example, with the majority of my tanks, I only gravel the open areas when I find the TDS readings get high (or high to me). Granted, I keep shrimp so I pay more attention to this than the average Joe.
> 
> ...


When you have a anaerobic leak from the gravel during cleaning in the tank, youll wish you removed the fish.
Ive seen it happen many times, if its dirty enough to have planeria swimming and all over the glass its times to do a complete tank cleaning. If you vacuum with less and less water plus more and more waste, well you do the math and tell us what that outcome will be.
My MTS tank went this foul and everything in it died when I tried to just do a weak gravel vac. I know exactly what the poster is talking about all to well and its part of my job to ressurect tanks in this condition.

If the person wants it clean all livestock and plants should be moved to a bucket so they dont die once the water becomes a time bomb. Plants are removed just for ease. Displacing fish is best in this situation and none of the fish will die infact they will spring back once the tank is in much better condition then it is.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

For gravel cleaning in planted tank all you should do is just suck the crud off the top of the gravel. 

I would also cut back on feeding. to prevent the crud building up on the gravel and also help the health of the fish.

On my planted tank I just fed a small amount once per day. If I saw crud at the bottom, cloudiness, or algae problems I would kill the lights and stop adding food until the tank cleared.

still just my experience

Worth at most .02


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

I'll just tend to differ with you on this one. My fry and shrimp tanks hardly ever get vac'd. And the times that they do, no issues, no losses, no fuss no hassles. 

Or as Johnny Bench would say...No Runs, No Drips, No errors. ;o)

It is only when the TDS is over 200 when I will do it.

I have even went so far a replanting entire tanks fully stocked without issue. This involves fully uprooting crypts. And as you are aware, their root structures are enormous. Look back in some of my threads and you'll see me doing this in my Oto breeding tanks. Do you think I would do this in such a sensitive tank if I had concerns?

It's a non issue. Sry.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

I thought you bred your oto's in BB tanks?


yes I know crypts all to well, roots are usually 3-4x larger then the plant itself but the plus side is you can get more nodes if you uproot them and segregate the plants. 

I stated what I did because his tank sounds like a ticking time bomb, when I dont remove the animals/plants from the tank I make sure I am running fresh water into the tank to dillute alot of the crap.

My MTS tank turned into one of these, thin layer of gravel, no water changes, 3 ac30's(10g tank) I went in one day to harvest some out and I hit the gravel and the water instantly turned jet black.

Im stating if the tank is that far gone as in dirty a healthy full cleaning might be in order, The tank wont go back into a mini cycle nor get any small blooms of bacteria once put back together. 

How do you measure your TDS? before AND after or just after?


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> I thought you bred your oto's in BB tanks?


BB tank? Brain might not be functioning correctly right now. Just ate a ton of wings. 



WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> 3 ac30's(10g tank) I went in one day to harvest some out and I hit the gravel and the water instantly turned jet black.


3 30s on one 10g tank? WOW! Talk about turn over. LOL I can only imagine that setup. And the jet black water?? Never seen that happen before. I have had black spots build up in the sand bed and I just use the tubing to suck it all out. Sand and all since it needed to be cleaned.



WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> How do you measure your TDS? before AND after or just after?


TDS meter. High levels are bad for shrimp especially when breeding. I usually check them once a month. If too high and I do a vac, I will re-test after the water change to ensure it's back down where I want it to be.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

bare bottom is BB in the discus world lol.

Yeah it cranked water out like mad but the minute the gravel got stirred up the water would turn all black or go to a black bottom clear top, it was nuts and the smell was great till the gravel got hit then the stench set in.

ok, I measure my TDS before filtration and after, perk of the RO unit. I know on the IN side I am close to 400 on the TDS meter and on the outflow side I am sitting anywhere from 002-004

I need some otos when it gets warmer sir.


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## James0816 (Jun 19, 2009)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> bare bottom is BB in the discus world lol.


Well DUH! I should've known that. Not sure why that didn't register. lol



WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> ok, I measure my TDS before filtration and after, perk of the RO unit.


Have you measured it from the tank?



WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> I need some otos when it gets warmer sir.


Drop me a line when ready and we'll see what may be available.


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