# New member needs advice



## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi all, I'm new here, but I'm not completely new to aquariums / fish world. We have some gold fish in a pond in the backyard, but it's been a few years since I had an aquarium though, so I searched for a fish forum before putting fish in the tank to get some advice from the pros. 

I bought a small 21L aquarium (Cayman 40 Classic). Sizes are 42cm x 21,5cm x 33cm.

I was thinking to put in some gravel, wood, live plants and a betta fish.

But I would like more than one fish. I'd like a pleco and red tail shark, but I know my tank is too small for that.

So what would you recommend me for this tank?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

You could add a mystery snail or a couple of otos . Fish that are small enough for this size tank will probably be eaten by the betta.


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Shrimp!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Shrimp maaay get eaten by a betta. Ammano shrimp may be big enough that they won't get eaten though, so that's an option.

A Mystery or Nerite snail would work.

Your idea to put drift wood, live plants and rocks in is perfect by the way!  

You're right though, a Red Tail Shark and a Pleco are waaaay to big for your tank.


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

There are 200million plecos out and not all grow big. Ok maybe not 200million. But s**t loads!! Look at the L140 sp pleco. Can't remember how big it gets, maybe 12cm. Still might be to big for you tank, I don't know. Does look like the fish you want aren't suited for the tank you got. I see 2 options: 1 get a bigger tank, 2 be happy with some small schooling fish like tetras or danios or rasporas. If you do get a bigger tank the smaller one could be a hospital tank or a fry tank...... It won't be completely wasted. Just an idea....


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## harveya (Aug 12, 2011)

What about 2 German blue rams? Tank would have to be well cycled before you add.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

harveya said:


> What about 2 German blue rams? Tank would have to be well cycled before you add.


a 5 gallon would definitely be far too small for GBRs, they need their space. 

Maybe adding African dwarf frogs would be a nice addition, they're peaceful and you could have two in such a small tank. I don't really suggest shrimp and bettas together, only because I've had a mixed experience with them. When I had ghost shrimp, they chewed on my betta's tail and my betta ate them. An amano shrimp is larger, and didn't get chewed up or nip betta's tail too much, but I always expected to see a dead shrimp and a happy betta when I had both. 

Personally, I'd decorate that tank to death with live plants, and then see how much room is left over. Frogs don't require that much room, I think and they stay at the bottom mostly. I've never had them though, so I'm just going off of what other people have said


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Mine like to sit on the leaves that are near the top so basically they like top and bottom.


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the great advice guys.

I've decided I will first put plants in it and let it run a while and then decide what to put in. Maybe a small school of neon tetras would be nice too.

One question tho' - should i cycle without plants first or add plants right away?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

markot said:


> One question tho' - should i cycle without plants first or add plants right away?


I would say add plants. They love consuming ammonia and nitrite more so than nitrate, because it's easier to get their nitrogen from the former two. They also help seed your tank with some of the bacteria they will entrain in their root systems.


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## frogwings (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi! Frogwings here. I'd vote for at least the 2 DAFs. I have had two for over a year and I absolutely love them. (Thus the name "Frogwings"). They were actually the start of the whole fish tank thing for me; I rescued them from a Hallmark Card store, (yes, a card store!) where they were in a 4" cube. I moved them into a 2.5 gallon tank and then to the 10 gallon I have now. I planted the tank heavily and added 6 neon tetras. Except for the brown algae bloom we are going thru (new tank syndrome I think), all is well! Good luck!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

2 African Dwarf frogs would work. They love lots of plants and drift wood to hide in. (I've got 2 males and they are freaking adorable!)

Keep in mind, they usually have to be hand fed, as they don't eat food from the surface and do not have very good eye sight. I use 10" tweezers to feed mine. They have learned that when I click the tweezers in the water, it's dinner time! 

I don't think I'd add much else (after the frogs) other than maybe some Amano shrimp or a snail, since it's a 5g tank.


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## frogwings (Aug 26, 2011)

:frog-28492: The feeding thing is tricky. I have put a small "plate" in the bottom of the tank on which I drop about 4 tadpole bites every 2-3 days. Look for something heavy enough to stay in place and, preferably, with "sides" to prevent the food from being pushed into the substrate. (I use a small, glass candle holder that I found at Michaels. It has gently raised sides so they frogs won't hurt themselves.) That way they can find the food without having to dig around in the substrate. They do have poor eye sight but can smell the food with no problem. The plate also makes it easy to tell if they are eating. Suggest doing some research ~ Google rocks! Mine are fat and sassy and, despite the fact that I have a "pair" and, they truly love each other, I've never had tads. They even "sing"! I wish I had the patience to feed them by hand. That would give me more "hands-on" experience. Bonding with my frogs, what a concept!


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

I would totally just use a plate, but the gouramis would go to town on the food! 

Tad/frog bites are good, but the frogs need bloodworms (frozen/thawed) or glassworms and such. Just tad/frog bites can possibly cause impaction in the bowels. They are ok as supplimentary foods, but the froggies are carnivores and LOOOOVE their worms!


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

I've been to 2 pet stores today and neither is selling frogs. So now i'm deciding between a betta or a small school of neon tetras.

How many neon tetras could i get into this tank? It's 21L (which is 5.5G acording to Google)


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

not too many, they need a larger tank so that they can school properly. That would require 5+, and while 5 could fit in your tank, they might be stressed by the small space. If you have it well planted though, that would make it less stressful. Personally I'd still say betta because I like centerpiece fish, but it's your choice.


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## frogwings (Aug 26, 2011)

Back to the froggies... Hum-m-m-m-m, it seems that the info I got on the tad bites was misleading. I though those would a sufficient diet. I will definitely get some worms to feed them! Wow! Fred and Willy must be malnourished! 
Thanks for the input on the worms!


(Last time I checked at our local pet stores (the dreaded Petco/Petsmart) they were not selling frogs because the frogs carried salmonella. Ever heard of that?)


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Everybody should know frogs carry salmonella. When I picked up my two ADF's, I was warned by the PetsMart clerk that they do carry it.

The reason most stores don't have them ATM is because the wholesalers were having some breeding issues a month or two ago, so everybody ran out. The ADF's are coming back on the market, but they're being cautious about it.

I feed my ADFs the same as I feed my other bottom dwellers - tadpole bites, shrimp pellets, algae wafers, frozen blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, and flake food (what doesn't get eaten by the fish), feeding whatever and whenever the mood strikes me. The pleco and snails usually get the algae wafers, and the shrimp attack the shrimp pellets, but everything else everybody in general just browses over. The only thing I worry about is bloating because I've heard ADFs can suffer from this if they're eating the wrong thing. But no problems thus far...


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

Alright, I have put together the aquarium yesterday and started cycling it.

I filled it with with water, gravel and a couple of plants and started the filter.
I've also put in some water conditioner and plant fertilizer.
Don't worry I will take the plants out of the boxes and buy more plants, but the store didn't have any nice plants at the moment other than those two.
I will also add a piece of wood and rock.
I have turned off the bubbles since I don't have any fish in yet.

I think I will get 6-8 neon tetras for this tank. Let me know what you think so far.

Here's a couple of pictures.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Those plants will do best tied to a piece of wood and shouldn't be buried for to long as they will start dying with the rhizome planted. As far as the neons go after you plant and add a piece of driftwood I wouldn't do more than 4.


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

susankat said:


> Those plants will do best tied to a piece of wood and shouldn't be buried for to long as they will start dying with the rhizome planted. As far as the neons go after you plant and add a piece of driftwood I wouldn't do more than 4.


Thanks for the tip. I didn't know those shouldn't be buried.


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

OK, I have finished aquascaping and found out I'm also pretty bad at it too. 

I hope the tank is cycled by the next week so I can put some fish in it.

I've tested the water and got this:
Ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0.2, ph is 7.5
That was before adding wood, stones and other 3 plants.

Is this normal for a week old tank? Will ph drop?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I think it looks pretty good, you don't suck at scaping.


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## aquaninja (Sep 6, 2011)

a 5 gallon might be too small for a large school of neons, but they do like to be in groups,so I'd say 4 or 5 would do Ok.


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

looks very nice, good job


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## holly12 (Apr 21, 2011)

Looking good!

Sorry Frogwings - I didn't mean the pellets were completely horrible, just that they shouldn't be the only thing they get as food.


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

I have taken out the wood cause it made the water kinda brownish even tho i cooked it for hours.

Anyway, the tank is now 2 weeks old and I have added neon tetras today. 

I have noticed some brown algae building up on some of the leaves. Can you check the pictures and tell me what it is and how to get rid of it. Or is this normal and will it go away by itself in some time?


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## Kehy (Apr 19, 2011)

algae is completely normal, I don't think there are any tanks without at least a little bit of it. If it's covering the plant leaves too much, you can gently wipe the algae off when doing a regular tank cleaning. The wood staining the water was releasing tannins, giving you "black water", which tetras and many other fish love, but aren't necessary. A filter with carbon would remove the color and it would stop leaching so much eventually. Still looks very nice though.


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## markot (Aug 29, 2011)

Do I need bubbles for this tank? It's 21 liters with live plants and 8 tetras.

According to everything I read I should only get 5 tetras in this tank, but even with 8 the tank looks almost empty 

I did tests today again. Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0.5, Nitrates 20-30 (was kinda hard to tell)

I hope I don't lose any fish as I heard they like to die when transferred to new tank.


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