# I used to think I knew a lot



## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I used to think I knew a lot about keeping fish. Put the fish in the tank, feed them and every now and then change the water. But, the more I decide I want to take care of my fish properly and actually keep fish as a hobby the more I realize I don't know anything about keeping fish!!!

So, I'm looking for some help and information. I'll post the questions I have for now and see where I'm at then:

First, I have 3 tanks running right now: a 10, a 35 and a 55. All freshwater. All fake plants and gravel. All community fish. 

I'm checking the ph and the ammonia in the tanks. The 10gal breeding tank is high in ammonia so I did so big water changes in that tank a few days ago and would like to do more but have new born fry in there now so will probably just pick up a bottle of stuff to take care of the ammonia-any thoughts on that?? The other day I siphoned out half the water with my gravel cleaner but put pantyhose at the bottom of the siphon so the water I was taking out was clean of debris and just put the water back in again. There was so much extra food and stuff that I had to get most of it out but didn't want to lose all that water with the moms to be in there. Didn't want to upset them. Is that the only things I should be checking is the ph and ammonia?

Next, if my ammonia is very low or 0 should I still do water changes? I thought that a well run and well established tank should actually take care of itself like that but I'm not sure if I'm wrong on that or not? 

Next, what is the name of that stuff in the bottom of the tank? Not the gravel but it's like a gravel substitute it's white or light colored and looks almost like sand.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

How high is high? If your tank was high in ammonia, the right thing was the water change. If it is still high, then I would do a daily water change until it was at 1ppm or below. I would never put water back in I was taking out if the water parameters were not good to start with.

How are you testing your water? Liquid test kit, right? Along with ammonia, you should be testing for nitrites also.

Water changes generally should be a weekly occurance. Maybe not required per se, but it improves overall quality. I've read literature that speaks to water quality breaking down over a period of time and a 10-15% weekly water changes impedes this from happening. Planted tanks may throw out that equation somewhat.

Have all your tanks cycled?


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## edwardsdeacon (Sep 22, 2010)

:fish-in-bowl:thats all good about the tank and cleaning it but use a small filter a corner or out board, If you use a outboaed then ues the smallest marineland filter and cover the hose with a cutting from a net or pantyhose. use diamond blend (the black and white mixed medium)( both filters will except this medium) that would be carbon and zolite. this will cut down the ammonia and for food you can use boiled yokes massed through a net, baby brine shrimp and/or mistic shrimp. also on the market they sell food just for fish fry. but however you feed them only give them what the can consume in 5 minutes and do this 3-5 times a day. for water change yuse two buckets. age some tap water for one or two days in the first bucket. then whemn your ready take the same amount out of the tank and put it in the second bucket and refill the tank with the clean water. also you can put one quater teaspoon of sea salt per ten gallons. mix this with warm water and put it in your tank. this will help with the growth internails of the fri..... i hope this little insite helps / from edwardsdeacon:fish-in-bowl:animated_fish_swimm


Amie said:


> I used to think I knew a lot about keeping fish. Put the fish in the tank, feed them and every now and then change the water. But, the more I decide I want to take care of my fish properly and actually keep fish as a hobby the more I realize I don't know anything about keeping fish!!!
> 
> So, I'm looking for some help and information. I'll post the questions I have for now and see where I'm at then:
> 
> ...


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## edwardsdeacon (Sep 22, 2010)

1) for the ammonia you can use diamond blend (the carbon and zolite mixed) in a small marineland outboard filter and cover the hose with a cutting from a net or some pantyhose, or use a corner filter with the same medium. these will reduce the amount of cleaning you should have to do. 2) for the food once in a while you can use baby brine and mistic shrimp or egg yolk boiled and meshed through net. or there are several fry food on the market. but whatever you do only feed them 3-5 times a day , what they will eat in 5 minutes. 3) also try a quater teaspoon of sea salt per 10 gallons. mix this with warm water befor putting it in the tank. 4) for water changes use two buckets. age water for a day then exchange it with a like amount from the tank. I hope this helps


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I forgot - I wouldn't use any ammonia products like Amquel or other to lower toxicity of ammonia - if your tank is cycling. If it is cycling still, using things like this will only delay the cycle.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

You may want to refer to this thread about cycling:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/things-newbies-should-know-about-cycling-7945.html

If your tank is fully cycled you should rarely see any ammonia or nitrite. You do the water changes to remove your rising nitrates. If have high ammonia, either your tank is not cycled or you have other problems. You could be overstocked, overfeeding, or undercleaning...or all 3.

You need to first address the ammonia problem. Do water changes, and use something like Prime to neutralize it but still make it available to the beneficial bacteria. Do not waste your time on ammonia absorbers, as ammoina should not be an ongoing problem. When doing water changes vacuum up as much debris as possible, especially if you see a lot of uneaten fish food. Change around 25% daily if your ammoina continues to stay high....especially if your fish begin to breath near the surface.

Feed only as much food as the fish will eat in a few minutes and never let it get to the bottom. Treat the water you add back with something like Prime or you could just be adding more ammonia back to the tank (see the link for more info on this).


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

So, I used the gravel cleaner and took out 50% of the water and replaced it with new water. Ran it in and out of the tank a few times to try to get all the debris out as well. I noticed a new problem while I was doing this: Yesterday I had at least 12 new born fry in the tank. This morning I could only find 2 and before I cleaned the tank I couldn't find any. I took the plants out and cleaned them as well and there really are NO fry left in the tank. The moms are still in the tank (because some of them haven't given birth yet) and they are guppys. I didn't think that they had gotten all those babies in one night. I found the problem while cleaning. I put pantyhose over the intake portion of the filter. It's one of those that sucks in water about halfway down the tank and spits it out in a little waterfall at the top. I covered the bottom with pantyhose so to keep it from sucking up fry but it seems the suction is strong enough that they must have been getting stuck to it. Does that make sense or did they get stuck to it after dying for some other reason?? If it was the suction-got any suggestions?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

They could have gotten stuck there for both reasons. I wouldn't do too much gravel moves with fry in your tank. Depending on the size of your gravel they can easily hide in crevices all over your tank. When any of my fish have babies, unless they are Molly (a little larger fish), I usually do not see them for at least a week. New borns will hide from place to place....if you sit and watch a while you may see one come flying out only to duck into another spot. Not sure how much gravel you have in there, just saying there is still a chance that some are living still.

I don't protect the intake of my filters. I have Aquaclear filters and its pretty easy to fish out babies. Don't like doing it, but eventually they swim strong enough to get away from it once they start feeling it pull them in. I also cut the flow back a little, which in turn will cut back the suction. 

Have you tested for ammonia? What were your readings?


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I didn't test the water today because I just went and cleaned out the debris (ie. left over food and waste) in the gravel of the tank. The ammonia earlier this week was really high so I have been trying to do more frequent water changes and trying to make sure they are not getting overfed and stuff like that since then. Mine is an Aquaclear as well. How do you get the fry out of there?? Also, how do you cut down the flow?? 

I know that there are none left because I had to clean the gravel today and took out all the plants to clean them as well. I would have seen them if there was any left. 

Can't remember the number but a few days ago when I tested my ammonia level was on the highest one on the test strip.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Take off the top, thumb and forefinger into the holes of the media holder, squeeze and lift out. The fry will usually be under the media holder. Not sure which one you have but the larger filters have more room underneath. 

To adjust the flow - on the top surface of the intake tube is the little notch that sticks up through the top cover.....grab it and slide it over to the right to decrease flow. All the way to the left is max flow.

I hear what you say about not finding guppies. Just don't be surprised if one shows up mysteriously. What type of testing supplies do you have?


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## brimac40 (Jan 11, 2010)

You asked what tests you need and I would say a API Master test kit . You need to test not only your pH and ammonia , but also your nitrites and nitrates . 

As Dmaaaax stated , do not use filter media that removes ammonia , get yourself some AmQuel Plus or Prime . They bind the ammonia and nitrites so they become less toxic to the fish , but still provides food for the good bacteria . You need to get to the bottom of why your tanks ammonia is off the charts . How long has it been up and running ? Was it cycled before adding the fish to it ? Is it over stocked ? Did you remove all old filter media and replace it all with new at the same time ? Has it sat running for a long period of time with no fish in it (without fish or you yourself providing a food source for the bacteria , the bacteria will die off ) ?

Edit: if do get yourself some Prime or AmQuel Plus , remember that after adding it to your tank , it merely binds the ammonia but does not remove it so your ammonia tests will still register ammonia in your tank , so do not keep adding it trying to remove the ammonia .


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Sorry, my mistake it's an aqua TECH filter. It doesn't have anything to adjust the flow. Guess I'm still stuck with the ineffective pantyhose. Next thing on the tank list is a new filter for this tank. Think I'll go with the one that you have, since it's adjustable. 

How long has it been up and running ? Maybe 2 weeks. Might even be a little less. 
Was it cycled before adding the fish to it ? Shamefully, no. I had never heard of cycling a tank before coming here. 
Is it over stocked ? Might be. It's a 10gal and had 5 female guppys in it. But they were all young so not full grown. Not sure where that fits on the overstocked rule. 
Did you remove all old filter media and replace it all with new at the same time ? Yes. The filter came with the tank and both were brand new. 
Has it sat running for a long period of time with no fish in it (without fish or you yourself providing a food source for the bacteria , the bacteria will die off ) ? No. Almost immediately I moved the female guppys to the tank.

There are only 2 in the tank now. The other 3 have been removed back the big tank. At least one of them had their babies and from what I read even though the other 2 have gravid spots I don't think they are pregnant after all, or at least not close to giving birth. 

I think overfeeding has been the biggest problem. For a few days it seemed like no one in the tank had an appetite so I was feeding them and they were not eating it. But because they were not eating I didn't want to take the food back out either because I wanted to make sure they had more then ample chance to eat it. Also, my daughter was feeding them sometimes behind my back. My 7 year old! So, between that and the fact that the tank didn't cycle first I think those are the big problems.

So, about the ammonia remover you mentioned. The Prime or AmQuel Plus. Is it a good idea to use something like that?? If it doesn't change my ammonia readings I'm thinking that's probably not a safe thing for me to use because then I'm not going to know what the 'real' ammonia is then. Especially since the tank is still cycling. What do you think?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Anyway you can tell us what the ammonia reading is? I'm guessing that you don't have a test kit? Just a feeling.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

No no I have a test kit but I didn't think I would get an accurate reading because I had just changed the water. The reading a day two before was the highest of the chart. 

So, the other day I changed half the water and siphoned out as much of the wasted food debris that I could get a Last night I noticed that one of my guppys looked on the verge of dying. She was resting on the bottom and not really swimming at all and sometimes she would nearly go over on her side. So I pulled out my kits and tested the ph and the ammonia. The ammonia was 0 (awesome!!) but the ph was 6.0. Maybe lower-that's as low as the test shows. I took the two of them out and transferred them to the big tank. One of the guppys looks fine today but the sicker one didn't make it  . Did the removal of the ammonia change the ph?? If not, what did?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

What is your ph out of your tap? Did you test for nitrites? Having a few sustained days of high ammonia could have moved you to the next phase of the cycle.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Amie said:


> How long has it been up and running ? Maybe 2 weeks. Might even be a little less.
> Was it cycled before adding the fish to it ? Shamefully, no. I had never heard of cycling a tank before coming here.
> Is it over stocked ? Might be. It's a 10gal and had 5 female guppys in it. But they were all young so not full grown. Not sure where that fits on the overstocked rule.
> Did you remove all old filter media and replace it all with new at the same time ? Yes. The filter came with the tank and both were brand new.
> ...


This answers a lot. You rushed the tank and I doubt it is cycled. You really need to read the link above if you have not already (especially what I posted). I think it will help.

At this point I would not worry to much about the fry. You need to get your water parameters right or you might loose the adults. This might be the reason they are not eating, and are sluggish, and possibly at the surface more. *EDIT:* whoops just read the last post and I guess it was too late...sorry. 

Test the tank/s daily until your ammonia and nitrite are 0. If they are are even moderately high, you need to do a ~25% water change. If you are using tap water, you need to treat the water with something like Prime or AmQuel! If you do not, chances are you are adding chlorine or chloramines back into the tank you are trying to clean. If your ammonia is now 0 this means your nitrites could be climbing. See the link above, it explains the cycle.  Now you need to test for this. *EDIT:* However all of this is moot, if you removed all your fish (and we may need to discuss how you move fish properly at a later date), because now you do not have a source of ammonia and all your hard work will be wasted unless you can supply ammonia daily to the tank to finish the cycling process.




> So, about the ammonia remover you mentioned. The Prime or AmQuel Plus. Is it a good idea to use something like that?? If it doesn't change my ammonia readings I'm thinking that's probably not a safe thing for me to use because then I'm not going to know what the 'real' ammonia is then. Especially since the tank is still cycling. What do you think?


It is necessary to use something like this with every water change unless you let the new water sit in a bucket for a day or 2 (again in that link). The reason the above 2 products are sooooo good is that it does not change your ammonia or nitrite reading. I just makes them less toxic to the fish, but you still know what levels they are at so that you can continue to fix the problem with water changes while at the same time keeping your fish from dying. Once your tank is established if you do small water changes without dechlorinators, your tank will be fine, but I would suggest adding it to any water changes over ~25%.

Now why is your pH low? Chances are that is just what it is at. Have you tested your tap water? What is it at? Now take some in your tube and shake it vigourously. Open it and let it sit for 5min. Now test this. If the pH has dropped it means you have a lot of CO2 in your water that naturally gasses off in your tank, dropping the pH over time. Doing a water change (splashin the water) will gas it off faster.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah the fish are out. I don't want to try anymore of them until the tank has cycled. I read on here somewhere that you could cycle the tank with lettuce. I have to find that thread and see how to do it. I was thinking about getting a Betta and using that but not really a fan of those fish and they won't sit well with the rest of my tank. 

Got to pick up the master test kit in the next few days. We had a lot of damage here from hurricane Igor and I haven't had much of a chance to get out to pick up a master test kit. Closest store for that is over an hour away. 

Was also thinking I should pick up, just to have on hand: ph up, ph down, aquarium salt and amquil or prime for the water. Did I miss anything?? 

I had the test kit for ph and ammonia and have been using that. 

I have always floated fish into new tanks. I should probably be using a drip technique but have not done that one before and last night has just concerned with getting them into the established tank as quickly as I could. I put them in a plastic bag in the new water for about a half hour or so. Sometimes longer if it's a fish I've heard is temperamental (floated mt glass catfish for over an hour). Then opened the bag and over the next 10 minutes or so let the new water in a little at a time and then empty the bag. 

LOL Keeping fish really was easier when I just put them in a tank and replaced then if/when they died. 

Have another question: I have gravel in my tanks. I want to switch that to something finer. For a few reasons. I want to plant my tanks and I think that it would be easier on the plants if it was a finer substrata. Secondly, I had a spiny nosed eel and he lasted about 2 weeks before he died. He was eating so I don't think that was a problem but I think the gravel was too rough for him. actually, I'm sure of it. He had a small mark along his side when I found him so I would like to have something finer so I could try that type of eel again. Later on, figure I should get a few other ducks in their rows first. But I was wondering if I could use beach sand?? That's probably a really stupid and a very loud no type of question. But couldn't hurt to ask, I guess.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you want to continue cycling without fish, all you need to do is find some ammonia cleaner from one of your local stores. It has to be free of any surfectants or perfumes. The way to test this is shake it up. If it foams, don't use it. If it just bubbles up and they go away immediately it is probably okay. Also check the ingredients. You're looking for just ammonia and water. Do a quick google search for "fishless cycling" and just follow the method mentioned. Fairly straight forward.

Don't waste your money on ph up or down. They will eventually just cause unsafe water in your tank.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Don't waste your money on ph up or down. They will eventually just cause unsafe water in your tank.


So, when the ph of my water changes how will I correct it?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*You dont need to worry about the pH of the water. Most fish can live and will adapt in the pH of 6ppm-8ppm. Unless yours is beyond these boundries, I wouldnt worry about it. 

Also I want to add that since your tank is still cycling, you wont have enough beneficial bacteria to break down the toxins like ammonia and nitrite from the fish waste and excess food, so I would suggest only feeding once every 3 days in small quantities. Fish can go without food for 2 weeks. So once every 3 days should not pose a problem. *


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I have the fish moved out of the tank that is cycling now. Not going to put them back in until after it's finished. 

After it cycles should the ph automatically stay in those parameters? And, what things would make the ph go up or down?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

Amie said:


> I have the fish moved out of the tank that is cycling now. Not going to put them back in until after it's finished.
> 
> After it cycles should the ph automatically stay in those parameters? And, what things would make the ph go up or down?


*
You need some fish as a source of ammonia to make the tank cycle. 
No ammonia = no bacteria food = no cycle.
Too much ammonia = too much bacteria food = toxicated tank.

To make pH go down. Mix 50% tap water with 50% Reverse Osmosis water or rain water. Or 75% RO and 25% tap. Or you can add a bunch of peat moss, but it will make your water yellow.

To raise pH, you fill the bottom with crushed coral substrate. *


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm going to put a few tropical flakes in each day. That should still do the trick right? I also have the same decorations and gravel in there that was in there when the fish were and I have not changed the filter. Also, I have a piece of Christmas moss in there that I am trying to get to grow onto a piece of flat rock.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Yep fish flakes work also. I would still add like 1 fish though, would seem faster because the fish food would still have to be broken down into ammonia. Fish release ammonia directly from waste *


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

What about if I put in some of the gravel instead?? I'm planning on picking up some silica sand next week and will have 55gal worth of gravel that can go in that tank then to help with the cycle. Or maybe keep changing the decorations with the ones in the other tank?? That way the cycling tank will keep getting new fresh ammonia.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*Silica sand will just get you tons of brown algae. Also, I dont think sand releases ammonia. The only substrate I know of that releases ammonia is ADA Amazonia Aqua Soil. *


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

What is the substrata in your tank?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Gravel from one of your other tanks will help cycle it.

Did you ever post what your ammonia readings were?


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*I use eco-complete for growing plants.

jrman is right, try seeding your new tank with the substrate/gravel from your 75g. it will help it cycle a lot faster.*


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

A few days before I changed the water the test kit showed the ammonia to be the highest (or almost the highest-those colors can be a little hard to read) that the test shows.....nt sure the exact number off the top of my head.

After I changed 50% of the water and siphoned out all the debris it showed an ammonia level of zero but the ph level was down as low as the test would read. 

Is that eco complete expensive and where can you buy it??


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*If 50% of the water was changed then the ammonia concentration ppm should be half of what it was. Are you using strips to test? 

I buy my Eco-complete at Petco online. It was 15.99 for 20lbs bc of a sale. Pretty cheap IMO because other plain gravel cost just as much or close to it. There was a sale at Petco if you order $55 or more, the shipping is free. I bought 4 bag sof Eco*


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