# sand=sad



## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

I have a 55 gallon with 2 cichlids and 2 angels. recently i got rid of my gravel and replaced it with playground sand...which was washed till it ran clear. All was well, fish were unaffected i thought. We also found a home for our overgrown oscar two days later. Now the fish seem all sad...afraid of the light and hiding. Even the angels who usually are up at the top swimming gracefully back and forth, are huddled at the bottom. ideas?


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

**reading*

*Says here they are freaked out from all the bright conditions. Used to have darker gravel, now we have, bright white playsand reflecting all that light everywhere, EEEEKKKK, who turned on the search lites. This is gonna take some gettin used to, more hiding places, and less light. It might help if you added a shoal of dither fish 6-8 maybe white cloud mountain minnows, to show the scared fish its ok.*


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

aww my hero!! thanks for the research jim!


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

one more thing...where might i find minnows? or do you have any other fish suggestions i might find at the lfs?


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Dither fish , as i call them are any seemingly no caring fish that swims in groups like neons, cardinals, etc. but stay small. If you can get by with just room, or indirect lighting for awhile it would also help. , i pulled all that research out of 30 years of dealing with fish, Natives are really bad about being skittish.*


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## obscbyclouds (Apr 6, 2009)

Keep in mind that if you buy small schooling fish, get ones that are big enough that the angels and cichlids don't think they are food. Neon tetras may be chased endlessly by full grown angels. Good luck!


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Nothing against neons, but the idea is to promote activity in the angels, or other desireable inhabitants. If they're out chasin neons, they're gaining confidence and not hiding all the time.*


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

My tank has the option to have one or both lights on, so i just put one on. There are two large hiding spots for the my cichlids, Sammy and Betty  As soon as the 6 neon tetras hit the water, the angels started chasing them about, but they won't fit in there mouth anyway. So if Sammy and Betty follow suit, all shall be well... Thanks Jim!


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## Saprobic (Nov 14, 2008)

haha Jim the presentation of that info was brilliant. 
Let me know how the sand works out. I have found sand in freshwater systems to be a bit of a pain, but I really like the look when its clean and healthy.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

yes it is a pain already, you can see everything on the bottom of the tank... but alittle skill with a vaccum and it's gone.. i like the look better than the gravel and the fish love rubbing against it. The funny thing is, we bought 6 bags of gravel at $5.00 each and now threw that all away for one 50 lbs bag of sand that cost $4.00... gesh. i liked the way he worded his reply too.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

I ditched the vacuum now for my sand and just use a long handled net.the sand fits thru the holes and the poo stays in. 

You could always get two females and one male guppy and that will keep the angels out of hiding all the time.


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## Shotgun (Mar 1, 2009)

I have kept neons with angels before, they were fine untill the angels got big. *J/D* They ate the neons... *frown

Now I have 12 cardinal tetras in with a pair of angels. They get along just fine.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Wait till you get egg's, my angels JUST laid and fertilized now the bloodfins are in deep hiding.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

oh boy...i woke up this morning and all the neon tetras were gone.  and everyone is still hiding out. at least they were 5 for 5 dollars lol. i am pretty sure sammy had a snack because he is pretty big and has ate feeders before. oh well.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Sorry about the neons  anyway, i still think the new substrate is the problem, only thing i know to do, is keep the lights down some til they get used to it. a buck each is too high for one meal. Truthfully i never liked white sand for a substrate, the fish ive tried it with always reacted like yours have, and they never showed the nice colors of fish on dark substrate. However after a while they did acclimate to the change. One other option you might try is buy a bag of Black sand, and put it over the top to try to tone down the brightness a little.*


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

how thick is the sand?

what fish are in there?

play sand isnt white its brownish tan, Pool filter sand is white and runs about what you paid, the HD orange store sells Play sand for less then 3 bucks per 50 pounds.

I have had white sand and the fish didnt care either way.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> how thick is the sand?
> 
> what fish are in there?
> 
> ...


I have one butter kolfi cichlid, one festae cichlid and 2 angels.. they are all pretty large.

I had white gravel before and the sand is tan like the kinda in sand boxes... This is why i don't see why it would bother them so much. 

50 lbs in a 55 gallon, it's only like an inch of sand.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

I think it might be something to do with the ph, is this possible.. i haven't checked yet. They were in the tank when i put the sand in and were fine, swimming all over.. fine the next day.. i didn't notice the change till the oscar and catfish were taken out of the tank honestly.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Sorry i dont know why i pictured white sand, maybe because lots of people use pool sand which is white, but now its a different ballgame. one thing is the two cichlids you have, ive kept both and found them to be pretty aggressive, and also no wonder the neons are gone. i also didnt know you had those guys in there. I would at this point with this info recommend you check your water chemistry, the sand should not have affected that but it might have. Also when you went from gravel to sand you lost a lot of aged bio, and with those larger cichlids in there, you may find you have a high ammonia level as well.I would also do a large water change, do you have city water, dont forget to dechlorinate.
*


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

The sand is inert, it should not raise or drop the Ph at all, if its the right sand.....


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Im thinkin at this point she may be goin thru a new cycle, new substrate, new water* , *big fish. im still up for a big water change and check that ammonia level.*


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

I did a 50% water change after the sand sat for an hour.. and also do a weekly water change of 20%. I put "Ammonia Detox" in the water to lower that and level is ok now. What else you think?


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah I don't think the fish are "hiding" because it is bright. I have 2 other hypothesis:

1.) You changed out all the substrate. You are probably going through a mini-cycle, watch your ammonia and nitrite levels for a week before doing anything else. If the fish are still hiding after this go to #2.

2.) You removed some fish. The dominant one probably. Now others (since they are all cichlids) are going to fight for and/or become more territorial. The way to solve this, is to add more usually. However, do not just add random little fish like neons or minnows because you run the risk of giving the fish you like disease. Slowly add more cichlids or other fish that can co-exist with them, if this turns out to be your problem. Something like this is usually due to a balance of fish.

I have a Discus tank with 4 discus an angel and several types of tetras. The 4 discus used to always hide and pick at each other and ocassionally the faster, larger angel would jump in. The angel was always fast to eat all the food also due to the other hiding. At first I thought it could be the light, then I just assumed it was the discus picking on each other, no matter how many I kept adding. But one day I decided to remove the angel...all 4 discus were out the next day swimming in a school and eating food out of my hand practically. It is all a delicate balance for territory and co-existance. Sometimes you need to add more, sometimes you need to remove some. 

GL


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

Well if removing didn't help... i'll try adding... What should i put with these?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Nicole85 said:


> I did a 50% water change after the sand sat for an hour.. and also do a weekly water change of 20%. I put "Ammonia Detox" in the water to lower that and level is ok now. What else you think?



Next time use ammo chips or something, those chemicals dont always work and if you OD it MIGHT cause issues with the fish. to put it in better terms its kinda like hanging out in the garage with the door closed and a car running, some win at that game some dont. They have to injest everything in the tank their skin absorbs minerals tas do their gills, toss a chemical in there and it might have ill effects on the fish.

I use 1 chemical and one chemical only, Right now it is prime since cycle is hard to find( yes I keep it cold).


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

ok I am still new to using chemicals.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*This is truly a delima, of huge proportions, I agree with everything these guys say, but i cant wrap my mind around a festae, and a buttokofri being scared of angels, and ive seen certain, and a few fish hide from the bully of the tank , but everybody is hiding here. * *something about this puzzle is missing. I know this is asking a lot but could you start from day one and by the numbers tell us each step you took leaving out nothing???*


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Prime is great if you can find it. It removes chlorine and chloramines and detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and heavy metals.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

I am anti chemical in water due to the quality of just our drinking water and the quality of our waterways, I seen what chemicals can do and it really isnt pretty.

lost an entire lake for 2 years due to the chemicals they added to combat bacteria and plants in the water, it wiped out the entire fishery in that lake.

hundreds of natives just floating it was very sad.

I am no expert but just my own tanks I would never and frankly I think of all you members tanks as my own as well.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

The only place I can find PRIME is about 40 minutes SE of me.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

probably could find prime online...ok tank is fine. all the fish are back to normal...swimming around, eating, etc. the angels are back to swimming at the top. i think they just needed to adjust to big tank changes.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Thats great news ...sometimes ive found that its best to wait and see what is really going on, assuming there is not a life-threatning situation, such as really toxic water etc. and let the tank and inhabitants, find their own balance. I never use chemicals of any kind except maybe carbon or a phosphate removal pad, in the filter, and have great luck. I think you are now at the just watch things place, and all will fall in line shortly, with just patience.*


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## IMIGHT (Jun 30, 2009)

Good to hear every thing is fine now, however watch the sand getting into your filtrs, sand can destroy the impeller in your filter very quickly. A good fix is pantyhose, it stops the sand from getting into your filter very well and is inexpensive.


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Dont the folks look at you funny when your in Wally World buying panty hose??*


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## IMIGHT (Jun 30, 2009)

erm ,yes they do LOL


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm sure i have some old ones i could use... where would i put the panty house, over the intake?


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## IMIGHT (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes. Does a good job keeping out the sand. Sand can destroy an impeller very fast. Makes for an expensive substrate.


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

honestly, i am considering going back to gravel.. but instead of those tiny little ones.. i was thinking about keeping a thin layer of sand and covering the bottom with those natural rocks they sell... likethis. http://www.petco.com/Assets/product_images/8/800443035252C.jpg


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## JIM (May 27, 2009)

*Those look really nice but will be a nightmare for catching debris, uneaten food etc. unless you fill all the spaces with sand then you wont be able to vac.*


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## Nicole85 (Aug 17, 2009)

the sand sucks... i think i'll just go back to regular gravel


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