# cycling & plants



## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

Is it ok to cycle your tank with plants in it? Or should you add the plants after cycling?


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. It's ok and better to cycle with plants, only thing you must take to consideration is that those plants must be plants that are not so sensitive, otherwise they can decay.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

igot2gats said:


> Is it ok to cycle your tank with plants in it? Or should you add the plants after cycling?


Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And IME you do need fast growing true aquatic plants.

I use a mix of fast and slow growers. Anacharis, vals for the fast growers. Small potted type and amazon swords for the slower growers.

What happens with enough plants you completely interrupt the ammonia->nitrItes->nitrate cycle because the plants prefer to consume the ammonia directly. So initially all you get is a nitrate bump up. Then as the aerobic bacteria build up the plants are forced to consume the nitrates so nitrAtes jump down.


my .02


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## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks for the quick responses. That's what I figured, but it doesn't hurt to double check. I'm not new to FW tanks, but it'll be my first time with a planted tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

igot2gats said:


> Thanks for the quick responses. That's what I figured, but it doesn't hurt to double check. I'm not new to FW tanks, but it'll be my first time with a planted tank.


Just a few pointers.

1) have some peat moss in the substrate. (helps prevent hardness buildup over a few years) I use peat moss under play sand to hold down the floaties. And plant before I full the tank with water.

2) let the tank set for a week with the plants growing and no fish.

3) add a small fish load and don't add food for a week.

4) then add more fish and start feeding very very lightly.

Just my .02


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Can you please explain me number 3.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Dafo said:


> Hi. Can you please explain me number 3.


sure.

When I first started doing this I would add food. In a 10g tank we're talking a single male platy. And just like clockwork the fish would start breathing heavy, lay on the bottom (after 4 days) then die on the 6 day. 

the second platy always lived.

Then One time I just took the attitude, it's going to die anyway so I won't add food. And to my very big surprise it lived.

Somehow adding food increases the bioload beyond what the plants/tank can initially maintain. Not adding the food allows everything to remain in balance.

And this is not starving the fish. There are plenty of things on the plants like little bugs and even snail eggs for the fish to eat. So even during that first week, the fish is active, not breathing heavy, and pooping all the time. Meanwhile the fish is also keeping the plants clean in the process.

my .02


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. I Didn't even think about starving (fish can live witouth food for at least 10 or even 14 days). Why didn't you put in Discus? Did you ever heard for fishless cycling? Did you find any text or web site that say's platy is more capable of tolerating nitrite and amonium? What advantages method with fishes have? Do you think that adding food in aquarium (witouth fish) has evidently different impact on water parameters then live fish?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Dafo said:


> Hi. I Didn't even think about starving (fish can live witouth food for at least 10 or even 14 days). Why didn't you put in Discus? Did you ever heard for fishless cycling? Did you find any text or web site that say's platy is more capable of tolerating nitrite and amonium? What advantages method with fishes have? Do you think that adding food in aquarium (witouth fish) has evidently different impact on water parameters then live fish?



They were 10g tanks.

I have heard of fishless cycling and do not agree. After starting many tanks with this method and recently (and finally) actually measuring ammonia/nitrItes, I see no need to fishless cycling. ammonia/nitrIte values are almost non existent.

Platys could be more tollerant. I have also used these methods is neon tetras, angelfish and others.

Whey you cycle a tank with fish you not only establish the nitrogen cycle but also handle phosphates and carbon dioxide as well. So cycling with plants establishes the aguarium using the total of fish environment. And again there are no ammonia/nitrIte spikes. Plus you don't have to worry about getting the correct type of ammonia and so on.

I guess you could add food with no fish. I owuld feel nervious about that with the food rotting at the bottom of the tank. Could lead to fungus and other problems.

still just my .02


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Seems like you didn't try just with food- if not overdosing, there is no food on substrate . So you would probably try with discus if you had bigger aquarium (nope,.. Think that would be bad idea). Acctualy fishless cycling is faster because if haveing fish inside you must do partial water changes otherwise they are dead in few days (there is no bacteria at the begining in filter to waste nitrite) which means no2>0- which is bad for any freshwater organisms (including platy's), There are few ways of fishless cycling, one of them is adding filter material and water from pet shop or someone who has aquarium- result is ++ for fishes and time of cycling. Why you add fish in tank if there is no producing of amonia and nitrite (the aim is to add organic stuff in filter (in your case fish poo) to begin NITROGEN cycle which makes bacteria waste nitrite and produce nitrate). And there must be something wrong with your testers if they are showing amonia and nitrate level 0 when cycling with fish. (so that is a bit of bla bla) Actually cyclig is shorter word for Nitrogen cycle.








Concluding- when there is no bacteria in filter nitrogen cycle stops in 3.phase> we only have nitrite and ammonia.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

You analysis if flawed in that ammoina is consumed directly by live plants as well as bacteria. In fact the plants actually prefer ammonia over nitrates. And will consume ammoina first then nitrates second. So even in a pristine bacteria free tank, there are no ammonia spikes when live plants are in use and keeping up with the ammonia being produced. to insure that I use lots fast growing plants, allow the plants to condition the tank a week before adding fish, add a small fish load, and add no food for the first week.

My test kits were fine and registered ammonia and nitrIte when present. In fact I did have very small one day bumps. ammonia and nitrates in the order of .25 ppm or so then then next day back to 0. And a small bump when I first started feeding that 1 flake per day.

I have added two lines to you chart to represent the plant action on ammonia. While it is correct in a mature tank that ammonia is being reduced with aerobic bacteria that is not the entire picture. The plants will consume the ammonia when the bacteria is not sufficient.

I also do not remove nitrates with water changes because I do none. nitrates and poshpates are unmeasureable with no water changes.


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Don't you understaind, there is no NO3 witouth NO2- if there is no bacteria then there is no NO3 (just no2)- is deadly for any fish. (and I know about plants for consuming NO3! no2 stays where it is if there is no bacteria. And the most commonly used plant in UK or Germany is Ceratophyllum demersum). Do you have any sceme showing plants consume NO2 and platys tolerate higher no2 values- please paste it.


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Have to appologise to igot2gats for hindering your thread, but as the same time take it as useful data.


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## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

Dafo said:


> Hi. Have to appologise to igot2gats for hindering your thread, but as the same time take it as useful data.


No apology needed. This was all very useful information, & it related to the thread, IMO. Keep it coming.




beaslbob said:


> Just a few pointers.
> 
> 2) let the tank set for a week with the plants growing and no fish.
> 
> ...


So in your experiences, it's ok to cycle with fish? I'm going to be having a Tetra & Rainbow dominated tank. 

Is there any downfall to fishless cycling?

Everything I've ever read in articles & forums say fishless cycling is the only safe way to cycle a planted tank.


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## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Just a few pointers.
> 
> 1) have some peat moss in the substrate. (helps prevent hardness buildup over a few years) I use peat moss under play sand to hold down the floaties. And plant before I full the tank with water.


I plan on using Seachem Flourite as my substrate. Does that have peat moss in it?


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## igot2gats (Aug 12, 2010)

A couple more things:

1. do you feed your plants during the cycling process?

2. what is a good plant food?


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. As I wrote above, method with fishes is leasting longer then fishless cycling and is considered as torturing- NOWHERE on the web you can find any data that says any fish can tolerate ammonium and nitrite! People are usualy using platys, danios or green zebra chiclids in a way that these are low prized fish that can dye and there will be no big damage (nobody trys with discus and if somebody dares to write he will do that with discus he will absolutely end up as madman)- but in that way discus is eqvivalent to all fishes writen above. The best and fastest method is to insert water and filter material from aquarium that is yet cycled. (shop or private aquarist) I don't know about sachem but you don't need to feed plants when cycled. In my experience the best fertilizer is nutrafin kapsuls and I add every week a dose of iron an kalium.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

igot2gats said:


> No apology needed. This was all very useful information, & it related to the thread, IMO. Keep it coming.


 +1 and a very interesting discussion. I will post a graph of parameters on a 20g long planted I started to show my points later.


> So in your experiences, it's ok to cycle with fish? I'm going to be having a Tetra & Rainbow dominated tank.


 Yes as long as you first get the plants thriving and add the fish slowly


> Is there any downfall to fishless cycling?


Yes. It only cycles the nitrogen part of the tank and does nothing to establish co2 and oxygen levels plus other things such as phosphates. It also does nothing to condition the water hardness wise and for other toxins such as copper and the like. When you don't get the right ammonia you are actually adding toxins that should not be added under any conditions. Plus it can stall and take months before complete. But all that is just my observations from threads on this and other forums.


> Everything I've ever read in articles & forums say fishless cycling is the only safe way to cycle a planted tank.


Now have another viewpoint. *old dude


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

igot2gats said:


> I plan on using Seachem Flourite as my substrate. Does that have peat moss in it?


don't know.

I also hear it is a fine substrate and looks nice.

here is what I use from bottom to top

1" peat moss
1" play sand
1" pro choice select.

each added, watered to the top of that level, leveled, and the tank cleaned.

then I plant the plants and finally fill the tank to the top with water poured over a dish. I have found that method results in an almost clear tank immediately. the peat prevents KH and GH values from rising and dkh was 4 and dgh was 9 for years. Neons thrives whereas they did not last long with just sand.

Costs are:
sphagham peat moss (now ferts added) 2/3 yeard bale $11
play sand 50 pounds $3
pc select 50 pounds $8

Which is enough to do many many tanks.

the pro choice select is used for baseball infields and I had to email the manufacturer and special order to get locally. It is a red/brown color. I have also used pro choice select charcoal which is a nice black mud but is no longer available and did cause some clouding. I understand john deere landscaping has a substute for the pc select charcoal but have not used.

my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

igot2gats said:


> A couple more things:
> 
> 1. do you feed your plants during the cycling process?


yes and no. Just the nutrients in the tap water and from the fish. No added nutrients.


> 2. what is a good plant food?


Fish wastes.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Dafo said:


> Hi. As I wrote above, method with fishes is leasting longer then fishless cycling and is considered as torturing- NOWHERE on the web you can find any data that says any fish can tolerate ammonium and nitrite! People are usualy using platys, danios or green zebra chiclids in a way that these are low prized fish that can dye and there will be no big damage (nobody trys with discus and if somebody dares to write he will do that with discus he will absolutely end up as madman)- but in that way discus is eqvivalent to all fishes writen above. The best and fastest method is to insert water and filter material from aquarium that is yet cycled. (shop or private aquarist) I don't know about sachem but you don't need to feed plants when cycled. In my experience the best fertilizer is nutrafin kapsuls and I add every week a dose of iron an kalium.


I understand your concerns completely.

check out this graph of parameters on my 20gl I started. Just the tank, substrate, plants and fish. The tank was started completely on its own with no added stuff from any existing tank. Using straight untreated tap water with no added chemicals or water treatement (other then the plants) of any kind. No air stone, no filter, no circualtion of any kind. At no time did the fish show any types of stress and the tank ran for over 3 years with descendents of the original cycle fish. the fish were platys and built up a population of 20-50 fish during that time. No water changes ever conducted.

the pH value (7.6) here is actually the max of the api pH test kit. Later I used the high range pH kit and found values of 8.4 and higher.

also not the x axes is not linear.

And the initial nitrates then drop down after 3 weeks. I have seen initial nitrate values of up to 30ppm during this time as the plants get their nitrogen from the ammonia and not nitrates.


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Beaslbob, I still wait for facts that are confirming your point and don't care for your testing results, there is so much written about nitrogen cycle on web. Fishless cycling is good known method in UK and Germany is used as fast method which is animal friendly (takling from my experience as member of aquarium community forum UK- under the same name Dafo). And Beaslbob, do you realy think fish food is far different stuff than fish poo- asking this for second time. And do you dare to use this method using discus fish- second time. This about nitrite (0) is bull****- it's chemically impossible in system withouth bacteria.- (All of that I had explained and showed above and not going to do it again)


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Dafo said:


> Hi. Beaslbob, I still wait for facts that are confirming your point and don't care for your testing results, there is so much written about nitrogen cycle on web. Fishless cycling is good known method in UK and Germany is used as fast method which is animal friendly (takling from my experience as member of aquarium community forum UK- under the same name Dafo). And Beaslbob, do you realy think fish food is far different stuff than fish poo- asking this for second time. And do you dare to use this method using discus fish- second time. This about nitrite (0) is bull****- it's chemically impossible in system withouth bacteria.- (All of that I had explained and showed above and not going to do it again)


welll you are free to reject my experience and test results. At this point that is about all I can do. I should be relatively easy and inexpensive to take a gallon jar, use the methods I explained, and show your test results.

Fishless cycling is fine if that is your thing. As you go through a fishless cycle please keep in mind that after three weeks I have a tank stocked with fish and no fish stress and only vary rare losses. And in that three weeks the tank is a awesome display of various plants as opposed to basically empty water.

Yes I do think fish food is different. For instance, no carbon dioxide is being generated.

Yes I would use this method for discus. But I may want to use less expensive fish first. And of course with a larger enough tank. In fact these methods with a sump system have been used in successful discus tanks.

Ok then how about .0000000001 ppm nitrIte? Whatever the value was it did not register on nitrIte test kits. Definately not the 5ppm+ pegging of the test kit.

For searching I would suggest balanced aquariums, planted aquariusm, leiden aquariums. 

for reading try Diana Walstads's the ecology of the planted aquarium for marine system Adeys/loveland's dynamic aquaria.

These methods are actually the oldest most proven in existance. They were used long before electricity or glass tanks.

my .02


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## jclee (Aug 17, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> What happens with enough plants you completely interrupt the ammonia->nitrItes->nitrate cycle because the plants prefer to consume the ammonia directly. So initially all you get is a nitrate bump up. Then as the aerobic bacteria build up the plants are forced to consume the nitrates so nitrAtes jump down.
> my .02


This requires HEAVY (and successful) planting in relation to the fish, and most people do not plant so heavily, Especially when people are starting and at the stage where they need advice about cycling. 


beaslbob said:


> Just a few pointers.
> 
> 1) have some peat moss in the substrate. (helps prevent hardness buildup over a few years) I use peat moss under play sand to hold down the floaties. And plant before I full the tank with water.
> 
> ...


Peat moss makes water more acidic, and planting it under layers of substrate raises the dissolved organics in the water column. Both of these CAN be great things depending on the type of tank that you have. I am guessing that your tank is well planted, and that you do not add ferts. If the OP wanted to start a different type of tank – one that were less planted, or one that was fertilized and/or high-tech, or if s/he didn't buy rooting plants, or even if the OP bought plants that weren’t successful and didn’t replant – this would be a recipe for absolute disaster. 
The week without food that you say would have, essentially, created ammonia that was consumed by the plants for the first week; then, the flakes would up the amount of ammonia, and either the tank’s planted enough that the plants are consuming the ammonia or a mini cycle occurred at this point. How well this succeeded is very dependent on the ratio of plants to fish. Again, this is not good general advice, because if someone were to do something differently (add loads of fish at once or not have many plants, or have loads of plants that are slow growers) the build up of ammonia and then nitrite would be very problematic.


beaslbob said:


> sure.
> 
> When I first started doing this I would add food. In a 10g tank we're talking a single male platy. And just like clockwork the fish would start breathing heavy, lay on the bottom (after 4 days) then die on the 6 day.
> 
> ...


What you are describing is an ammonia spike that was high enough to kill fish. Less fish and or food = smaller spike, which happened not to be fatal to these fish at that time. There was still a spike as the tank began to cycle, and this still harms the fish. Ammonia changes feeding behaviors and growth rates on fish, even at low levels. This is why fishless cycling is advocated, and cycling with fish in the tank is supposed to be accompanied by daily water changes. (Side note: breathing heavily often indicates a lack of dissolved oxygen in the water which can be caused by a number of things. I would be careful of how I interepreted one instance of it.)

Also, if you were not testing the water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, then you would not really know if/when/how quickly the tank cycled. You can't really see toxins in the water, and the fish may or may not feel effects that you can visually notice.



beaslbob said:


> They were 10g tanks.
> 
> I have heard of fishless cycling and do not agree. After starting many tanks with this method and recently (and finally) actually measuring ammonia/nitrItes, I see no need to fishless cycling. ammonia/nitrIte values are almost non existent.
> 
> ...


This is very dependent on the types and amounts of fish and plants. It is possible to have a tank with a lot of fast-growing plants that consume ammonia. Therefore, the tank does not cycle in proportion to the amount of fish in the tank. Without ammonia, beneficial bacteria does not form. (Read up on the nitrogen cycle.) It is not a bad thing to have a tank like this, but not everyone will replicate it, and so I would not give it as general advice for cycling. A densely planted tank with fast-growers does not cycle, and when it does (fish and flakes make more ammonia than plants need), the beneficial bacteria populations are lower than they would need to be if there were fewer plants.

I am a little unsure of what you mean by "handle phosphates and carbon dioxide as well."

I just wanted to comment to make sure that someone did not follow this advice if they were not experienced with plants, and/or planning to plant in the tank. There are a lot of different strategies for keeping fish, and a guideline or rule that works for one type of tank will not always work for all kinds, and can wind up being harmful.


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Thank you jclee for some extra explanation and help. Usualy there is no need to discover the water (we say that when there are methods that are known to be sucessful and are tested by many people.).


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

On the phosphates and carbon dioxide I simply meant that the plants in addition to controlling the nitrogen cycle also consume those as nutrients. To me the co2is extremely important. The tank IMHO becomes a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen each 24 hour period. Which can't mean anything else than healthy fish.

You are correct that it does require lotsa plants but IMHO not a much as you think. the 20gl of the graph had several parts of the tank where you could see from front to back for instance.


Consider a 10g my wife setup. 2 15w spiral lights, tons of plants and 5 glo fish and 6 neon tetras added the day of setup. Used dechlor as well. this is not what I recommend and it was "close" as one neon did die the first night. But 2 years later the remaining fish were still there and active. the plants (sprite, wisteri types) went absolutely crazy. We would harvest them back to almost a bare tank and 30 days later they had filled the tank again.

The point of that 10g is not to do those things. But rather to demonstrate how conservative and safe these recommendations actually are. 

my .02


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. If you think that fish produce enough co2 for obviously better growing of plants that's not true co2 evaporates from water almost immediately although the concentration of co2 that fish produce in relation to concentrations we add with co2 difuzors is minimal. And more, the fall of ph that is consequence of not producing (or consuming by plants) is far more unhealthy for fish than concentration o co2 itself (in normal values)- that is why there is no advantages for stopping the co2 production at night (the time when photosintesis is not consuming co2). Anyway co2 is very important for growth but that has nothing to do with fishes- As I wrote we would not need to buy a few 100$ worth machines for co2 productin if fishes could do enough. Hope you belive to yourself.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Dafo said:


> Hi. If you think that fish produce enough co2 for obviously better growing of plants that's not true co2 evaporates from water almost immediately although the concentration of co2 that fish produce in relation to concentrations we add with co2 difuzors is minimal. And more, the fall of ph that is consequence of not producing (or consuming by plants) is far more unhealthy for fish than concentration o co2 itself (in normal values)- that is why there is no advantages for stopping the co2 production at night (the time when photosintesis is not consuming co2). Anyway co2 is very important for growth but that has nothing to do with fishes- As I wrote we would not need to buy a few 100$ worth machines for co2 productin if fishes could do enough. Hope you belive to yourself.


Again in my experience the lowest (nightime) pH is still much higher in planted tanks (with no added circulation, no added co2) then the highest pH in unplanted tanks with circulation and no added co2. Also with no buffering added to increase pH/alk. Indicating much lower co2 levels at all times.

I do not use any co2 additions other then from the fish. But then my 10g had 30 or so guppies of various sizes for 8 years from the original cycle trio. 

my .02


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

What you wrote is just quiete logical and you don't need to be scientist to figure out that, I just wanted to say that this has nothing to do with what we were talking about before- which is quiete obvious that there is no logical arguments for what you were writing.


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## NursePlaty (Feb 5, 2010)

*In my experience, fishless and fish cycling are both fine to do. Fishless cycling requires more knowledge because you have to understand the nitrogen cycle to know what is going on, but the good thing about it is, its a faster cycling than with fish. 

The point of cycling is to grow 2 sets of bacteria, one that converts ammonia-to-nitrite and another that converts nitrite-to-nitrate. If the aquarist is wanting to add fast growing plants in a tank. You must only add it, if you are cycling with fish, to reduce ammonia and nitrite spikes. Adding to a fishless tank will just delay the cycling process because ammonia is being sucked out of the water that is needed to be converted into nitrite. But once a fishless cycle is done, feel free to add the plants.

If you are planning to go cycling with fish, you need to feed less, and do water changes every 2-3 days until the tank is cycled. Then resume it weekly once its done. If you are planning to cycle fishless, you need a test kit and pure ammonia.*


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

the original question here was whether or not one should add plants during the cycle. Hopefully all these posts have provided that answer.

Obviouly there are many different methods to cycle a tank. So anyone reading this thread might want to ask questions in a new thread on cycling or perhaps private messages to individual posters.

But this thread was interesting and the ideas discussed are the reason these forums are so valuable.


But my ideas are only worth. .02 *old dude


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## Dafo (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi. Yes all OK with that, I was taking about the understainding of discused topic and weird arguments. Anyhow totaly agree with your last post.


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