# Clueless and Confused



## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm out of ideas and desperately need help!

My tank was near perfect and running smoothly with no problems when I noticed one guppy with a torn fin that was getting worse so I dosed my 45 gallon tank with Melafix.

I lost an Emerald Cory a few days later. I was beginning to notice a small amount of algae growing on the plants and the water appeared a little light brown so I researched and did a huge water change (60% ish). I also added new fish from a different store that I had just found (I know I should have isolated them, but this lady was suppose to be the best in town).

Within the next three days I lost 75% of my fish...with 4 out of the remaining Corys being first.

At first I blamed the Melafix after researching and realizing it could be dangerous to Corys, but then my loses included guppies, a Molly, a Platy, my entire school of Tetras except one and a Loach...along with all my babies except the Molly and a one day old Molly fry.

Water has and still remains perfect (0 ammonia, 0 Nitrites, 20 Nitrates) and I talked to someone at Petsmart who said I threw off my bacteria balance and that was what wiped out my fish. I was advised to wait one week, test the water and restock. He mentioned I could continue to lose older fish because the damage had been done, but new ones would be fine.

I did and 4 new Corys were first in the tank. I had not had a death in 2 days at this point. I also added 3 new guppy. 

Two days passed and I lost three more: a new Cory, a new Guppy and the Loach.

Yesterday I lost a Cory and a Guppy and today another Cory.

There are no sores, no spots, no fuzz, they just seem to get weaker and die. The first few days they would all tail stand before they died, but now they seem to hide in the floating plants and fade away.

The healthy ones act fine and eat fine..but that changes quickly. What am I missing? I'm so lost and want to get this resolved.


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## hotwingz (Mar 3, 2013)

What are you treating your water with? Ammonia, nitrItes, and nitrAtes aren't the only chemical in water that can harm fish. If your water is high in chloramines that will kill fish real quick. And if that's your issue changing water is actually more dangerous. Unless you treat it! Which should be done anyways. On the note of off colored water. Did you replace filter media or clean your gravel real good? Maybe all of the above. It is possible to over clean Your tank. If you clean too much youl loose bacteria and that will send your ya k into a nose dive.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Assuming this is a mature tank and not a new one, sounds like columnaris to me. Not many things wipe out that many fish in just a few days.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I hope for your sake it's not columnaris!
If you do need meds, Jrman83 recommended this place to me: FISH DISEASE DIAGNOSIS & FISH DISEASE TREATMENTS

I'm just finishing up treating my tank with the TMP Sulfa for columnaris.

I've got nothing for diagnosis though, I'll leave that to the veterans.

Good luck


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Velvet will hit fast and hard as well. If they show no signs of the columnaris then shine a flashlight on the last few and look for a kinda gold dusting. Treatment is also listed via the link provided above.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for all the quick responses. I lost a Platy today. 99% of the fish have shown no symptoms but there was one who had something that appeared to be growing on his mouth, but when he died a few hours later I couldn't find anything. 

Is there any danger that could be done to go ahead and treat for Columnaris? It doesn't seem like things can get much worse at this point. I have 3 Mystery snails and the 3 remaining Corys to be careful with. The other remaining fish are 5 Rasboras, 1 Guppy, 1 Platy, 1 neon, 1 adult Molly, 1 juvenile Molly and 1-3 day old Molly fry. 

Any ideas on how the tank became infected? The obvious answer to my inexperienced mind is the new pet store, BUT even PetSmart told me she is excellent and knows her stuff. Strangely enough, at this point, most of my remaining fish are the ones I bought from her the day before this all started. 

To answer some of the questions asked: I have well water and do WC 8-10 days (normally 30% before this last big one). I use Tap Water Conditioner and Stress Coat. I use Flourish for my plants.

Jrman you help me fishless cycle my tank in October. I was up and running in two weeks. All my stock came from PetSmart except for a copy Corys bought from a local shop 3 weeks ago and then the fish I bought last week. Until this, I had lost one fish in that time.

Thank you for helping me everyone. It is a relief to have some direction to go.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh, and I vacuum the gravel with the water changes. I have not changed the filters, I just rinse them in the old tank water.


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## sharkettelaw (Aug 30, 2011)

symptoms of coloumnaris would include this:
white growth around the mouth and/or just in front of the dorsal fin
a lot of deaths in a short period

i might be wrong but it does sound like coloumnaris. Also, there's two strains, external and internal. you may have both in your tank and those new fish may have been infected with it in which it circulated to the other fish. methylene blue and aquarium salt (preferrably coarse) will help. and i'd suggest not buying anymore fish until its gone otherwise they'll most likely die


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## sharkettelaw (Aug 30, 2011)

symptoms of coloumnaris would include this:
white growth around the mouth and/or just in front of the dorsal fin
a lot of deaths in a short period

i might be wrong but it does sound like coloumnaris. Also, there's two strains, external and internal. you may have both in your tank and those new fish may have been infected with it in which it circulated to the other fish. methylene blue and aquarium salt (preferrably coarse) will help. and i'd suggest not buying anymore fish until its gone otherwise they'll most likely die. this disease can come by 1. not putting new fish in quarantine, 2. poor water quality, 3. fish that are constantly stressed which lowers their immune system and this can be from water being too clean, 4. new fish infected with it.
keep in mind, excessive deaths in a fish tank is a signature of coloumnaris..that disease is the only one that i know of that can wipe out a community tank within the space of a few days


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I have never read that MB will take care of columnaris. Most treat with commonly found meds, usually in combination. They say that Furan and Furan II medicated at the same time, works pretty good. It will treat both types.

There are other forms of success searchable out there. Fish pharmacy has pharmacy grade meds.


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## Dolphielov (Dec 18, 2013)

Wait... Melafix is harmful to cories? Am I in trouble? I had 5 cories but one had finrot. I used a product labled melafix made by API to treat it. Is that why my cory died?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Dolphielov said:


> Wait... Melafix is harmful to cories? Am I in trouble? I had 5 cories but one had finrot. I used a product labled melafix made by API to treat it. Is that why my cory died?


I'm sure someone will argue this,but in general all the fixes are junk!They generally coat the surface of your water with an oil that inhibits o2/co2 exchange.Serious water changes are better in my opinion(I'll never buy it{again}).Real meds are best.If it says natural or herbal it is usually worthless.
jr- I have read of MB and salt for columnaris ,but there are many contradictory links as well.For the most part the MB salt works best EARLY or in baths.
MB can be mixed with almost any med and is much safer than alternatives(PP).
That being said most do agree with M&M2 in combo(found a few links saying they were worthless also though).
Columnaris has the potential to kill in 24 hrs so with something that strong often what works for one may not for another.
Also (sorry to say) the best cure (aid in curing) of any disease is EARLY detection and immediate treatment.The longer you wait the stronger it gets and more it kills.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you all again. I am going to begin treatment immediately. I hate that I lost so many when everything was running so smoothly. From now on there will be an iso tank for the newbies.

I'm sure the meds will say, but any idea how long it takes to kick in and help/cure?

I don't know whether or not I agree with all meds are junk or not, but it sure is frustrating to try to fin something to treat the tank that won't harm scaleless fish. I don't know if my Corys died from Columnaris or if they died from the Melafix. I thought it was safe but several intermet searches said it burns and damages the lungs of Corys and other scaleless fish.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I didn't say all meds were junk,I said the fixes(melafix,pimafix ) are junk!They are!
As far as timming for meds to have an effect any antibiotic usaully takes 3-7 days to kick in so the best sign of effectiveness you'll get is that fish stop dieing.
I am an advocate of strong meds(real ones),that many try to avoid for the "chemical free" treatment.In closed systems once a disease takes hold usaully only real meds will work efficiently.
Pimafix,melafix or any other "herbal" remedy are a huge waste of money in my book and tanks.Don't even count the cost of meds,count the cost of losses!Take no chances,know the enemy,kill them.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh, I didn't mean to sound argumentative at all! I just used poor wording when in fact, in a round about way, I was agreeing with you...that is part of my frustration. I would much rather go natural (as in turning up the heat for ich) than to place unnecessary chemicals in my tank. I would much rather have a knowledgable site like this one point me to the proper meds than have 2 different fish stores give me iffy and worthless info (like my fish died from the water change. Then I buy more fish and they are now dying too. :-\

It's been 20+ years since my last tank and a lot has changed. I'm pretty much starting all over in expertise. I have a whole lot to learn and am glad to have people like you to help.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Natural remedies are cool and all, but much too slow for my tastes. For example, it can take days for heat and salt to start affecting ich...by then I could have already eradicated it with Quick Cure. It's all about finding what works best for you. None of these issues allow you time to catch up to what it has already done to your fish and in nearly all cases slow times to react or slow times for the treatment to take affect, can mean you already have losses.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I definitely see your point. Maybe I'm making it more confusing for myself than I need to, but I have discovered that almost everything, including Quick Cure seems to be detrimental to Corys, Loaches and Snails. In this serious situation, I obviously have no choice. They are going to die one way or the other. :-(

I had a very light Ich outbreak and actually ordered the Quick Cure and before it arrived had read that it would kill my snail and very possibly the Corys. I choose to use heat (no salt...again the Corys) and it worked. However I can see where a more serious case would need quicker remedy.

So what do I do? Remover all the scaleless occupants before treating? (Not this Columnaris, but things like Ich) Can they reintroduce it back into the tank upon their return? When is it safe to return them?

These are the questions that drive me nuts. I never expected it, but my Corys are both the darlings AND the terrors of my tank. They are my favorites, even though I am constantly replanting the tank from their nightly escapades, but how do you incorporate the two and keep them all healthy?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have used kordon rid ich plus(same as quick cure) with my clown loaches for many years.They are scaleless fish.I usaully start with 1/2 dose and see how everyone fairs then up the meds to full stregnth(or more!).I never lost a clown loach yet due to meds,they are close to 10 years old.
The snails I wouldn't chance.They should be moved,but don't put them in a clean tank as they may carry infection with them.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Quick Cure has saved fish for me as well. I keep fish that do not fare well with salt so I try not to use it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Right on the label Quick Cure states that if you have scaless fish to 1/2 dose it. I have dosed with Cories, shrimp, and snails and no problem with the half dose. And the great part was it didn't seem to hurt the effectiveness of the med.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Awesome! Thanks again.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

TANK UPDATE: I stopped in the local pet store to pick up the meds. I was asked what I was treating for and the response I got was, "Oh, we are treating for Columnaris right now too."

The 2 Pepper Corys I bought two weeks ago were the culprits and not the new store.

I learned a hard lesson. First purchase after Christmas is going to be an Iso tank.


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## Dolphielov (Dec 18, 2013)

For ich, for goldfish at least, I read that you heat up the tank for a few hours or something and that kills the ich.


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## sharkettelaw (Aug 30, 2011)

i just did a bit more research on columnaris. i mentioned 2 strains, there is actually 4. the two i mentioned are the most fatal. if you see the fungus looking stuff by the mouth, you need to treat it ASAP because what it does is it eats away at the mouth and causes the fish to gasp for air at the surface where it will start hanging around. by the dorsal fin it can cause red blotches and etc. BUT the good news is that ALL strains of columnaris are salt intolerant. it kills the bacteria and methylene blue aids in this. the majority of the sits i checked suggested this so i would say do a water change, lower the temp to 24 deg celsius (columnaris struggles in cooler water) and put both salt and methylene blue inside. mostly salt


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Dolphielov said:


> For ich, for goldfish at least, I read that you heat up the tank for a few hours or something and that kills the ich.


Don't believe everything you read. Ich can be killed by higher temp but it is at 87F or above and usually takes 10-14 days using this method.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I found that thing about the 4 strains also, when I was researching last week. Here's the more detailed quote:

"There are 4 (yes FOUR) different documented strains of columnaris found in aquarium settings.

strain 1: this strain has been known to wipe out an entire fish stock in 24 hrs. in most cases there are NO OUTWARD SYMPTOMS. this strain is highly virulent and has a high affinity for attachment to gill filaments. from there it enters the blood stream through respiration where it creates a systemic infection. organ failure is rapid usually starting with the kidneys. A fish that has succumbed may look normal in coloration, or may appear to have bloody streaks along it's fins and body. a closer examination will show a discoloration and degradation of gill tissue (a bloody reddish brown). In most cases, the disease can only be done by a necropsy.

strain 2: strain 2 is highly virulent and also results in high mortality rates. in this case deaths are chronic and can span for several weeks until the entire stock is wiped out. the bacteria has a highly developed rhizoid which allows it to attach to the tissue of the fish as well as glass, plants, rocks, substrate, left over food etc. in higher hardness/ph it has the ability to form long filamentous colonies that are visible to the naked eye. this is usually mistaken for fungus. it is a transparent white that moves with the current. fish may or may not have have the classic lesions. many will die from what appears to be hemorrhagic septicemia. As this strain becomes more established, fish will start to develop the classic white, ulcerated lesions around the mouth, fins, and dorsal line. There is usually significant organ damage by the time a fish shows outward symptoms. As the infection progresses, the fish may appear to have lumps on the body or small red spots around the head and gill area. as the gill tissue dies, the fish may still eat and swim, but will generally stay near the surface, airstone, or filter outflow. Infected individuals will eventually lose their ability to circulate body fluids resulting in a swelling around the head and abdomen. the eyes may even appear to be sunken in. most fish will die within 48 hrs of showing outward symptoms.

*strains 1 and 2 are more prevalent in warmer tropical environments. the optimal temp for growth is around 85*f making this form a large threat to discus keepers despite the more acidic conditions that these fish live in*

strains 3 and 4: these strains are not as deadly and usually result in the classic white lesions. fish death may take a substantial time. one of these strains seems to lack a rhizoid and is unlikely to attach to glass etc. these strains are often easier to treat since they are slower acting and lack the attachment ability that the 1/2 strains have.These strains tend to survive in cooler temps making them a bigger threat to goldfish, koi etc."

From HERE


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I found this link to be the most informational;
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I came home tonight after spending all day with family to discovered the three Corys up and doing their circle dance all around the sides of the tank! The rest of the fish seemed more lively as well! There are no new deaths either.

They also seemed to attack their food with more vigor than lately. I know I have only given one dose of the meds and it may only be wishful thinking...but I believe it's an improvement!  

I gave the second dose this evening. Hopefully the worst is over. :fish-in-bowl:


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

How are things going for you?


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I have one more treatment tonight. In the last 4 days I've lost one Neon. I'm hoping it's over, but I wake up every morning afraid of more deaths. This has been tough!

How about you? Are they getting any better?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Maybe! I haven't had any deaths for a couple of days. But, that has happened before. Nothing happens for days and bam... dead. I think I went 7 days between deaths once. So I'm not holding my breath. 

I really hope it's over for you too!
It's rough, every morning I have the same fear.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I just completed day 5 of treatment yesterday. I lost my last Neon in the process but have had no other deaths. The 3 Corys have quit hiding and are up playing and chasing each other all over the tank. The remaining fish look good as well and all are eating well. I am hopeful this is over!

I'm going to do a partial water change today and add charcoal to the filters and try to get my water clear again. The tank looks awful! If it stopped this illness though, it was totally worth it.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Awesome!!
I don't know about you but I'm going to wait 2 weeks with no deaths before I add anything new.
In particular I have this QT tank now, I'm going to have the cories go 2 weeks with no death, then add them back to the main tank, then set up this QT for all incoming arrivals. So as long as my cories live for two more weeks then I can set about the recovery.

How many fish did you lose in the end?


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Well let's see...keep in mind I had partially RESTOCKED my tank after I was assured my water change caused it and not disease:

I lost:

6 Cory
8 adult Guppies and 4 fry
6 Neon Tetra
2 Dalmation Molly (I had 3 fry born in the midst of this and 1 actually survived! )
2 Sunburst Platy
1 Kuhli Loach

I have remaining:

3 Cory
1 Adult Dalmation, 1 juvenile and 1 fry
1 each: Platy, Guppy, Kuhli Loach
5 Rasbora
3 Mystery Snails

Funny note on the snails...I had 1 Blue Mystery Snail that was one of the 1st in the tank in November. He had grown from the size of a quarter to the size of a golfball. He was always active and would fight the fish for algae wafers. He went for three days without moving at all and I actually had him in the bag with other dead fish to dispose of but my husband talked me out of it and I put him back in the tank. 

Two days later I bought 2 small Mysteries and put them in and was going to pull his still nonmoving shell out when he suddenly popped his head out and he's been all over the tank ever since. Later that nivht we found him hanging upside down, side by side with the small Blue Mystery from the cave rooftop.

He's lucky that he didn't get pitched not just once but twice!

I'm waiting a while to restock. I'm going to switch lighting to improve plant growth and do some renovating on the tank PLUS have that ISO/hospital tank set up becore anything else goes in.

How bad were your loses finally?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh man you must have been devastated  Such a long list. So sorry!!

Mine were not so bad, and they were only cories. 6 Punctatus cories and 2 Dwarf cories. Others in my tank def had it though, they had visual symptoms, but apparently it was really "going around" down on the bottom...


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

+1 cory for me


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## sharkettelaw (Aug 30, 2011)

the amount of fish i lost was astronomical

: 100 guppies
5 platys
3 mollie

basically, every living thing in that tank was wiped out within a week. i havent had it again for a few years now so its good


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Threnjen said:


> +1 cory for me


I'm sorry. :-(

I read up on your thread last night. Have you decided what to do yet? It's scary and frustrating to learn how long this disease can hang around.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

I can't imagine losses that large! I'm so sorry


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

KJCos said:


> I'm sorry. :-(
> 
> I read up on your thread last night. Have you decided what to do yet? It's scary and frustrating to learn how long this disease can hang around.


Haven't really decided what to do. The problem I am encountering is - I feel like we if not ERADICATED it from our big tank, at least brought it under control, because all the fish there seem well. Then we have this other tank with the cories where one dies every 3-5 days. And the problem is, I don't think I could ever be convinced to put the cories back into the big tank again, know what I mean? I just don't really believe they will ever be truly well. The ones we still have 5 of are the original carriers that brought it in, and the 2 punctatus are clearly just too genetically weak.

Hubby and I had decided and agreed that if another cory dies, we are going to (sadly) euthanize the lot. I am not sure if I am hoping for this (yes, I feel guilty) because I just don't know what else to do with them. I look at them and see little carriers of death. It is really sad. I honestly don't know what to do because I would feel like a horrible monster euthanizing fish that may be just fine, but can I ever really risk my tank to them again?
So.. no other cories have died and I have not had to make the tough decisions about this. I don't want to play god to the fishes. Plus I love the cories  As you well know.

I hope you haven't lost anymore. I feel bad you have lost so much


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

IME with Cories if there is any stress at all they will withdrawal and die. I have a few different ones and some just didn't do anything, like eat. I equate them to Cardinals and Otos...if they make it past the first week or so you are usually good. If you have any issues along the way its a crap shoot if they survive. I just don't have very good luck with them.


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## KJCos (Feb 13, 2012)

Thankfully, the deaths seem to have stopped and now my tank has restabilized.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who helped me through this. It means a lot.

I learned a lot as well. I have the new ISO tank in the house and ready to go when I get to the point that I feel safe restocking.

Thanks everyone!


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