# Feeding



## perm_dogg

Anybody agree or disagree with rinsing off frozen Mysis Shrimp before adding them to tank? I've been battling a phosphate issue lately and the left over bound hair has taken over my rockwork. Like bad... Looking for any suggestions to get rid of this issue. Thanks.


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## treliantf

perm_dogg said:


> Anybody agree or disagree with rinsing off frozen Mysis Shrimp before adding them to tank? I've been battling a phosphate issue lately and the left over bound hair has taken over my rockwork. Like bad... Looking for any suggestions to get rid of this issue. Thanks.


I'd rinse them for a good reason: get cloudy soup out which your fishes do not drink. For hair algae, you battle it or accept it. I failed battling so I trimmed them so that they looks gracefully covered over certain rocks and they look good. You may also reduce your photo period to control the growth but this works for fish only (FOWLR). Alcohol dosing is, of course popular, but may not work for certain setups. Algae is good for fish to prevent HLLE; tanks with green stuff is natural and good for keeping fish in bright color in the long run.


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## coralbandit

Rinse all frozen foods if it is not too much trouble.
What happened to the phosphate/spa stuff you were dosing?
Flake/prepared foods are loaded with phosphates also.


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## perm_dogg

Yep. I am still dosing Vodka and SeaKlear. My water quality is virtually perfect. I may have been dosing more than I should have on the SeaKlear, causing bound up phosphate "hair". I don't believe it is Hair Algae. (Are they the same thing?) It's not green or red, it's dust like grey and stringy. Blows off with a baster easily, it's just so much I can't bring myself to believe it's that simple. My corals are all happy, my fish are all alive and well, just my rocks look like the aftermath of a volcanic eruption. Still running RO/DI for all my top offs. Brand new filters in the system. Running my 75GPH Canister 24/7 along with skimmer and cleaning out the canister and media once a week. Nitrates are solid 0, phosphates read 0, but my question is what, why, how, is there bound up debris after dosing? I read a few novel sized articles over the last few days and think maybe its the dumping in of the capfulls all at once, maybe I need to slowly drip it in? I don't know. I always find a way to bring new issues on in this hobby. I am the global trial and error poster child. Just gotta fix it without investing in another $1000+ machine of some sort.


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## perm_dogg

Just a side note* I've also taken the rocks out and brushed them with a big bristle scrub brush in tank water and then put them back in the tank. Stuff still came back. Substrate is covered with this stuff. (Loose)


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## treliantf

How big is your skimmer?


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## perm_dogg

I believe it's the HOB Aqua Maxx 75GPH Model. It's a great skimmer. It's been running 24/7 for over a year and hasn't even slowed down collecting nastiness from the tank.


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## treliantf

Well, as long as it works then is OK. I my self had tested so many and this one I did not test because it's rectangular, which I have no interest to evaluate.
What I believe you have severe photosensitive aerobic bacterial growth on the rocks. There are many such becteria; the most recognized is the cyano, which you don't have, indicating your water is of high quality. You may not have enough water movement in the tank to dislodge bacterial colonies. With a strong powerhead pointing at right angles you will reduce/eliminate accumulation of colonies from this growth.
In a natural reef this growth is predominate after most live corals were destroyed by hurricane/typhon because no competition from corals. That is exactly what is happening in your tank.


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## perm_dogg

That's a pretty bold hypothesis.... And I'm not even going to argue it..... Except.... I'm running a 800 gph Wavemaker and a 425 Koralia side by side on BOTH ends of the tank shooting at the glass and each other. Lack of flow is NOT an issue in my tank. And this outbreak happened instantaneously two days ago when I dumped in 2 caps of Seaklear. There was no previous signs of this type of outbreak prior to that. Like you said before. Some noticeable algae on the rocks, but the good kind. So.... Yeah. Still searching.


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## treliantf

Now I have a complete picture but no solid clue. Lanthnum phosphate is a white powder and can cover surfaces but you have such strong current and I can't figure out how LaPO4 can cover everywhere.


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## perm_dogg

My phone is terrible at taking pictures, but ill post one when I get home. That should help a little.


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## coralbandit

I was going to ask about circulation but remembered .
If you point either at the crap will it dislodge it?
Possibly(where is RM?) you can lower your dose of seaklear or apply it differently as you asked in the beginning?


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## treliantf

It's very likely the stuff is Lanthanum carbonate La2(CO3)3, which is fluffy, less dense than LaPO4, and tends to precipitate and continues to do so on carbonate surfaces.
Reason: you dump too much Seaklear, much much more after you depleted all phosphates in the tank. The remaining La+3 ion reacts with both carbonate in water and surface of substrate to precipitate out slowly, makes it nontoxic. Lanthanic ions are toxic to inverts and fish in its free state that why you should never use this in fresh water because it's going to kill.


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## Reefing Madness

Couple of things bro. Your phosphates are at the low, you can either cut your dose, or add a few days inbetween dosing.
Its from dosing, that you see this crap. You've gotten it all out, now you can maintain it, just watch the levels, if your at a capful, cut it to half, or add 2-3 days.
My phone is dead.  I get a new one tomorrow.


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## perm_dogg

Okay. As promised here's a pic. This doesn't even justify how thick this stuff is. It's covered everything in the tank. I continue to blow everything off with the turkey baster, but it's too much. It will take me a month to get it all out. Luckily nothing has died yet, but I've never seen something so unattractive. I took out two rocks i feel suspicious about. when i go to blow them out, there is so many holes it looks like gases are coming off of it so im throwing em away instead of brushing em again. Cb. Yes. it comes off loosely with any flow.


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## treliantf

There is always a danger of too much good things...without end point detection.
La carbonate forms because you added too much LaCl3. In SW you have unsightly tank, in FW you may have dead fishes. GFO can solve this problem for you.


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## Reefing Madness

I'd be waiting on that Low Range Hanna Checker before I did anything drastic though. Would like to know exactly where your number sits. I know its low, but you want it low. 
.05-.03


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## perm_dogg

Um.. About that...So I may or may not have panicked and pulled every rock in the tank out and let the dust settle. This morning I woke up and nobody died. The leather Corals aren't too happy, but what's new. The hair is still everywhere, but I'm not going to fight it anymore. I'll just hope the reduced dosing will have a positive effect and I can hire a clean up crew to help out as well. You still think I should do the Hanna checker? I read some reviews saying those aren't very accurate. Your thoughts?


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## Reefing Madness

Hanna Checker, Low Range!
We can widdle this down to exacts using that baby.
Or, cut your dose like stated above, and we can watch the API test kit for slight coloration, then bumping it up.


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## perm_dogg

Well. Being the cheap bastard that you know I am. I like option 2. However, if I'm going to continue to advance and potentially get a bigger tank WITH Sump, I may need such a thing right?


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## Reefing Madness

Its best to have sooner or later, especially if your getting into higher end corals. (SPS)


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## perm_dogg

ordering now. Chime in quickly if there is any thing that I need to get with it or additionally now.


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## treliantf

Yes, A marine tank without a sump just like a car without cruise control, it will give you both level control and temperature stability.
Use a micron filter bag and diatom filter aid to clean out all your lanthenum carbonate
mess,put the bag(with all stuff in it) under the trickle filter (if you have one) then you have a phosphate sponge that will last a few weeks and no need to add any SeaKlear during this time. Once exhausted(by P endpoint), put GFO in the bag to suck phosphate instead of Seaclear.

Dosing is a risking business unless you know what you are doing and with end point detection. Vodka is much less dangerous than lanthanum but same end point detection is still needed otherwise wholesale addition of ethanol to tank without knowing how much consumed will endanger all tankmates as well, even though LC50 is high for most marine species. I'll get back on this subject later.


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## perm_dogg

Yeah, like I said... I have RO/DI filtered water only. I run a 75GPH Canister filter 24/7 with my Skimmer and rinse out the media once a week. (Just started that filter back up recently) I'm not adding GFO or any other expensive hardware to a 55 Gallon Glass Aquarium. It's already so full of $#&^ it's tough to look at. I'm here in the "New to Saltwater" forum because I am not a Biophysicist or Chemistry Major (yet and hopefully not ever) I am not ignorant, but really don't have time, patience, or Ram left in my brain for knowing how chemicals react to each other and why it happens and how to cure cancer and all that great stuff. I leave that to the pros. (You guys) You just tell me things like "put less vodka in" and I do. It's a balanced system. ha ha. Not trying to cut anyone down or be a dick, I'm just simple and want to (at least try) to keep it that way.


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## perm_dogg

See,
Here's another thing that dives me crazy. I ask, "should I rinse out my Frozen Mysis Shrimp" I get a clear answer here. "Yes. Rinse any frozen food." Okay. Great. It makes perfect sense. Then I try it and what do you know?, the shrimp falls apart and goes right through my screen. So, naturally, I assume there's a better method. I look it up, everyone and their brother says it's a waste of time to rinse the shrimp as the majority of the phosphates are within the animal and the "juice" is so minimal, it wouldn't cause an issue in that much water. I'm still on team rinse the s%*& because it does make sense even if it only helps a little. However, do I need cheese cloth to do it? Do I have to purchase a fine strainer specifically for frozen shrimp?! Come on!! Ha ha.


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## Reefing Madness

treliantf said:


> Yes, A marine tank without a sump just like a car without cruise control, it will give you both level control and temperature stability.
> Use a micron filter bag and diatom filter aid to clean out all your lanthenum carbonate
> mess,put the bag(with all stuff in it) under the trickle filter (if you have one) then you have a phosphate sponge that will last a few weeks and no need to add any SeaKlear during this time. Once exhausted(by P endpoint), put GFO in the bag to suck phosphate instead of Seaclear.
> 
> Dosing is a risking business unless you know what you are doing and with end point detection. Vodka is much less dangerous than lanthanum but same end point detection is still needed otherwise wholesale addition of ethanol to tank without knowing how much consumed will endanger all tankmates as well, even though LC50 is high for most marine species. I'll get back on this subject later.


Ok, time for me to set this one straight.
1st- ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!
Nothing dangerous about vodka nor seaklear dosing. You've never done it, and therefore haven't the slightest idea what your talking about, with the exception of reading................HOLY COW.....
You have any idea how much of either it would take to crash a tank??? DO you?!! Give me a break dude. Getting tired of having to jump in here with you, your getting on my nerves with this crap. Randal Holmes-Farley doesn't even talk bad about either of those units for dosing, I outta know, I MOD a Site with him.
So give me and these guys a break will ya. Quit guessing.
Oh and, I don't have to get back to this later, facts is facts.
You tinker with the dosings, you get them straight, and BOOM!! Houston we have lift off. Only difference in my stuff is, it doesn't cost these guys an arm and a leg to operate. GFO, pfft, you don't need that cost in running a tank. Try dosing SeaKlear, hell I'll even show you how its done, then you can have your say in the matter.


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## Reefing Madness

perm_dogg said:


> See,
> Here's another thing that dives me crazy. I ask, "should I rinse out my Frozen Mysis Shrimp" I get a clear answer here. "Yes. Rinse any frozen food." Okay. Great. It makes perfect sense. Then I try it and what do you know?, the shrimp falls apart and goes right through my screen. So, naturally, I assume there's a better method. I look it up, everyone and their brother says it's a waste of time to rinse the shrimp as the majority of the phosphates are within the animal and the "juice" is so minimal, it wouldn't cause an issue in that much water. I'm still on team rinse the s%*& because it does make sense even if it only helps a little. However, do I need cheese cloth to do it? Do I have to purchase a fine strainer specifically for frozen shrimp?! Come on!! Ha ha.


Only reason I ever rinsed my frozen food in water was to thaw it out for the fish. I just threw all the shrimp and the water in the tank when it was thawed out.
But, what the hell do I know. Sorry no scientific mumbo jumbo to add......
Oh and yes, you gotta use cheese cloth so it doesn't go through.


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## perm_dogg

Okay cool. As of today, and ever since I bought frozen shrimp, I have put a half a cube in a shot glass with water and waited for it to thaw, then dumped it right in. That is all I feed my entire tank every other day or so. So is it fair to rule out that being my spike in phosphates? If there even is a spike. Are we agreeing that all that hairiness is indeed bound phosphate from the rocks? Not that rinsing is the hardest part of owning the tank, but the less bs I have to do, the better.


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## Reefing Madness

Yea, no worries there bro, the stringy crap is bound phosphates, I know what they look like, I went though it myself. But don't fret, it will go away.


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## perm_dogg

Yes I recall. That's when I found out that you are in fact human and make mistakes!! Ha ha. Mine was SOOO bad though. It worried me that it was more than just that.


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## Reefing Madness

I wish I woulda saved that pic of the stuff. I'd scare everyone with it.


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## perm_dogg

Alright, Hanna Phosphate Checker is on it's way. To be clear, this will help me pin point my levels to adjust dosing accordingly? That's the real benefit here? Cuz that thing aint cheap. ha ha


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## Reefing Madness

Yup, like the Nitrates, ya gotta balance them correctly. This will get us there.


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## perm_dogg

Good. Cuz if this gets any more expensive....I'm just gonna pour Grey Goose in the Tank. Ha ha.


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## treliantf

Reefing Madness said:


> Ok, time for me to set this one straight.
> 1st- ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!
> Nothing dangerous about vodka nor seaklear dosing. You've never done it, and therefore haven't the slightest idea what your talking about, with the exception of reading................HOLY COW.....
> You have any idea how much of either it would take to crash a tank??? DO you?!! Give me a break dude. Getting tired of having to jump in here with you, your getting on my nerves with this crap. Randal Holmes-Farley doesn't even talk bad about either of those units for dosing, I outta know, I MOD a Site with him.
> So give me and these guys a break will ya. Quit guessing.
> Oh and, I don't have to get back to this later, facts is facts.
> You tinker with the dosings, you get them straight, and BOOM!! Houston we have lift off. Only difference in my stuff is, it doesn't cost these guys an arm and a leg to operate. GFO, pfft, you don't need that cost in running a tank. Try dosing SeaKlear, hell I'll even show you how its done, then you can have your say in the matter.


Data is data. Endpoints are critical. Don't do wholesale dumping of anything, trust me, I have data (my own experimental no biased data with control, not something cut and paste from net)), Do you? Fix you HLLE on your hippo tang if he is still alive!
BTW, I know Randy's boss.


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## perm_dogg

Oh boy. Here we go again. Where's the mods? Might as well blame me and cancel this thread too.


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## coralbandit

perm_dogg said:


> See,
> Here's another thing that dives me crazy. I ask, "should I rinse out my Frozen Mysis Shrimp" I get a clear answer here. "Yes. Rinse any frozen food." Okay. Great. It makes perfect sense. Then I try it and what do you know?, the shrimp falls apart and goes right through my screen. So, naturally, I assume there's a better method. I look it up, everyone and their brother says it's a waste of time to rinse the shrimp as the majority of the phosphates are within the animal and the "juice" is so minimal, it wouldn't cause an issue in that much water. I'm still on team rinse the s%*& because it does make sense even if it only helps a little. However, do I need cheese cloth to do it? Do I have to purchase a fine strainer specifically for frozen shrimp?! Come on!! Ha ha.


I just thaw stuff and carefully dump water out and add fresh.
I use some large shrimp for my fowlr and the cloudy crap in the water is certainly no help to me and my filter.
Cheese cloth or strainer really seem to be pushing it for the real results like you said the po4 has probably soaked into the food also.


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## treliantf

PO4 is in the ATP of the food and it's part of life (now dead), rinsing may not reduce it but certainly help to get other craps/turbidity out, I did it as well. I'll get the "P" part discussion in a later thread.


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