# community set-up



## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

hello. i was originally using the thread platies in mini-bow 5 to discuss what fish i should have in a 20 gallon, but that thread suddenly stopped receiving attention, my guess is because the only person posting on the thread towards the end was eaglesfan3711, who went on a trip to des moines for the holidays. so i'm hoping a new thread will receive more attention. any how, this is my list of fish to have in the tank:
2 kribensis cichlids
6 zebra danios-one starfire,one sunburst, one green, one gold, 1 longfin, 1 leopard.
3 platies-one male to 2 females, one blue, one red, 1 yellow.
4 harquilen rasboras
2 balloon mollies
2 bronze cories
1 oto

currently the filtration is a whisper 20. what i wanted to do but never got an answer for was if i could get 2 peacock gudgeons if i just had 3 rasboras. what plants should i have? should i have more filtration? anything else i should consider?


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

in my personal opinion, the red should be male, and the others female, but thats just personal preference..... as for your selection, what you have is fine, but i don't know anything about the peacock gudgeons, and 2 is usually a bad number for most fish anyways...... i could be wrong.....


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## eaglesfan3711 (Nov 16, 2008)

Yep I was gone, now I'm back. I've gotta get busy, so many new posts!...lol

I have seen grudeons before but the ones that I saw were only about an inch long. However, they were in a tank peacefully with a lot of platies. I know they are community, but I don't know how they behave. As for filtration, I always go external carbon filters, but that is just a personal preference. Mine I think is aqua clear.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

ok. The heater is an all glass 100 watt. The thermometer is one of those external ones. Still , what plants should i have ? Eagle, if u say i'm better off with an aquaclear, how loud will it be? Still, what plants should i have ?


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

Aquaclear , whispers I used both of them it just a personal choice. Pet you keep asking what palnts should you have. Do the research and see what you like. As stated in the other post, You have a 20gal tank with a most likly a standard light fixture that comes with them. that means you have an 18 watts light which mean you have less than 1 wpg. Research low light plants or beef up your lighting to get 3 to 4 WPG and than you will be able to get more exoctic plants, but than you will be geting into some form of additional CO2. Also, with plants at any light level you will need to get to know ferts for the them.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

> i was originally using the thread platies in mini-bow 5 to *discuss *what fish i should have in a 20 gallon


Don't ever use that word!....I look at it and all I see is Discus and I start to drool! LOL

As far as plants, look at some pictures that people post and if you like a particular plant we can get you the name.  I personally like a few red and green background plants and mid/foreground ones:

Alternanthera reineckii 
Alternanthera reineckii - Google Image Search
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Heteranthera zosterifolia - Google Image Search
Foreground: Glossostigma elatinoides
Glossostigma elatinoides - Google Image Search
The last one requires pretty high light or it will grow more vertical than horizontal.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

whats are ferts? this is my first time keeping live plants so i don't know much about them. i wanted Java moss or fern but the LFS did'nt have any. instead, i got water sprite and something else (i think moneywart). dj, u say to have 3-4 watts per gallon-so i'm guessing a 50 watt will do well. o and how do i get CO2 into the water? thanks dmaaaaax for the plant pics. i like the red one-whats its common name?


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Ferts are fertilizer. There are macro nutrients like iron, potassium, nitrate, and phosphate, and micro like boron, maganese,...etc. This can be found in liquid or solid. A lot of people just use something like Seachem's Flurorish and trace and root tabs if you don't have a soil substrate. Check out their site for exact ingredients. Tetra also makes one called Floral Pride.

For plants, I have learned to stay away from common names. Too many of them have similar names but look nothing alike.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

ok i did some research with the link u gave me an one website said its commmon name is magenta water hedge. the substrate is riverstone and we are adding pea gravel tonight. what is the best type of fert, and still how do i get CO2 into the water? also at the LFS i got a full aquarium test kit. i will do my tests and post them later tonight.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

The test results r: 
ph-7.4
ammonia-0.25 ppm
nitrite-0ppm
nitrate-0ppm

the ammonia reading shows that the tank has started cycling, and the opening part of the hood broke, so i need a whole know hood! O and the 2nd plant is an amazon sword. I'm definetly keeping my eye out 4 java moss and magenta water hedge.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

With your lighting, and unless you upgrade them as said above you won't be able to grow 
the plants that DMAAAAAX suggested. Those are high light plants that require high light, co2 and a pretty strict dosing of ferts.

With the lighting you have I would stick to mosses, anubia and java ferns. They will be pretty slow growing under your lighting but will survive. The only ferts that would be needed is what the fish provide.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

thanks susan but i don't know what to do with the amazon and the water sprite. O and can i cycle the tank quicker if i get the 3 platies or 3 of the 6 danios? And dmaaaaax don't u have a pair of peacock gudgeons? Can u give a description of their behavior and diet?


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

petlover516 said:


> And dmaaaaax don't u have a pair of peacock gudgeons? Can u give a description of their behavior and diet?


Yes I do. They sit on the bottom, they like to be lazy and are very peaceful. They peck at food on the gravel. They need it to sink to them. Here is how to sex them...I have 2 females:

Link: Peacock Gudgeon - Tateurndina ocellicauda (Page in Preparation)


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

thanks dmaaaaax. I guess i will return the plants to the lfs. We went to petsmart today 2 look 4 decor and i noticed a nice blue platy female. I hope they will have her the next time i go. Do u think icanhave the peacock gudgeons?


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

we went out 2 this specialty store called "aquarium adventure" today. i got nutrafin cycle, java moss, and the 3 platies. i also joined the aquarium adventure club, allowing me 25% off every fish from now on. a funny thing about the place was that they used a large red-tailed catfish as their natural garbage can 4 dead fish. the platies r a red wagtail, blue mickey mouse, and a so-called "sailfin sunburst". this one has a yellow-orange head, yellow front half of body, and a red-orange back half of body, each separated by an almost clean cut. it has no sailfin. i think it might actually be a marigold variatus, because it does have a more slender, longer body shape. all 3 r female, and i believe the blue one is pregnant, since it is pretty round and has a dark blue spot between the 2 bottom fins. i fed them small amount after a while and all 3 ate. all 3 at one point nibbled on a plant. yellow attacked the amazon sword and took a nibble at the moss, the blue one attacked the water sprite, and red took a small nibble at the moss. one question-does the moss need 2 be planted?


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

it will attach to something at some point, or you can strap it to something (driftwood, a rock, weight it to the gravel) until it attaches itself. it seems a lot like algea, in the fact that it doesnt have roots, but attaches itself to things.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

The Java Moss is very versatile in that,in addition to accepting a very broad spectrum of water and light parameters, it will attach to nearly anything you place it near. If you have a piece of driftwood, you can just staple it right on. For gravel, just place a few pieces on top of the moss to hold it in place until it anchors itself.
In regards to ferts, I have a 100 gallon tank with one Red Texas Cichlid that feeds a 4' square aquaponic grow box. I get 2 gallons of salad greens per week from this with no ferts. The fish waste is enough to feed the bacteria that feed the plants.
With co2 supplement, remember that all things are relative. More co2 = the need for more ferts and light.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

right now the moss is nestled next 2 the heater. i did some research and i believe that my sunburst is a marigold variatus. i will get a pic soon. the platies r okay, so i'm thinking about getting the cories and the oto as soon as possible.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

The "aquarist" use fishing line to tie Java moss to driftwood. As it grows in the line becomes completly invisible. There is also line the "pros" use that actually disengrates after a certain amount of time. By then the moss should be fully attached. These are used in aquascaping.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

the moss is not moving. I think i'd like 2 get a male platy over a second balloon molly. I'll try doing research on hi-fin, green, and plumetail. If the female is pregnant, what should i do with the young? Will they hide in the moss?


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

yes, they will hide in the moss, but if you have a power filter, put an aquarium sponge (not the filter cotton, blocks the flow of water), and even then, the mom and other platies might eat them.... to save the most of them, set up a breeding trap (plastic) or seperate breeding tank for her and the babies. I prefer a seperate tank...


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

o no! all 3 platies have flashed at least once! please tell me its stress, not a disease. the ammonia has not moved from 0.25. i have been dosing the tank with nutrafin cycle, but i think the fish r eating the bacteria before they reach the gravel, because it releases these tiny white specs that the fish have a feast on. my dad has an old 2.5 gal that i could use as a fry tank/hospital tank. to get the tank cycled quicker, i guess i could get gravel from his 15 gal feeder guppy refugium, and maybe get a sponge filter to run in his 45 gal for 2 days and use it for the hospital tank. "moonshine", as we named the blue platy, has been confirmed to be pregnant.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

Are you using a water conditioner?


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

It could also be that the ammonia is burning the gills. That is one of the symptoms. Do a water change asap.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

the only water conditioners i've used r the cycle and tetra aquasafe. i don't have any hoses for a water change. what am i suppost 2 use?


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

You can use a milk jug,bowl ,cup....anything that holds water to take water out of your tank and replace it . If you have chloramine in your water (most municiple water supplies do) the Tetra Aquasafe will 'neutralize' the chlorine and chloramine. This means that it will remove the chlorine from the chloramine leaving the ammonia!!!


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

never mind! i'm getting the hose in a couple of minutes. please tell me what the best brand is. i've heard that python is good...i'll try to get that...


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

use am-quel water conditioner.... that tetra stuff killed my betta. I don't use cycle either once fish are in the tank, so just let the tank do it's thing, because maybe what the cycle stuff does is that it STARTS the cycle process by adding ammonia, which is food for certain bacteria. I think your ammonia will drop once you stop adding the cycle.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

I just did a 25% water change using a siphon-kleen. 4 water conditioner, i used ace stress coat. I guess i'll stop using cycle. The ammonia rose 2 0.25.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

Until you stop using those products........
If the chlorine is stripped from the chloramine, it's other component (ammonia) will remain.
Try doing a daily water change ,using no products ,for a week.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

You would still need to use a dechlorinator in the tap water if you have very much chlorine.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

susankat said:


> You would still need to use a dechlorinator in the tap water if you have very much chlorine.


If there is that much chlorine,it's doubtful that there is also chloramine. Chlorine will leave the water on it's own within 24 hours. If you only have chlorine, a dechlorinator is a good idea. A better way is to let the replacement water stand overnight with an airstone running in it. 
A chlorine removing product will leave you with a tank full of ammonia if used on chloramine. A product that removes both chlorine AND ammonia can be used in this case.
Chloramine will also leach it's chlorine over time,contributing to higher ammonia levels. For this reason,those using no means to remove the [chloramine] should do regular waterchanges.(this should be done regardless)


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Most dechlorinators will remove chlorine and chloramine from the water, which in most cities it is now required to use chloramine. They will also help remove a lot of the metals that are in the water.

I have done large water changes, up to 90 to 100% and use dechlorinator and not once did I have ammonia left behind. And that is in 30 years. I very seldom test my tanks anymore since I can tell when something is wrong and need to test for something. And moving into a new house like we did in Oct. I checked the water 3 times a week for about 2 months, and now slacking off on that as I know the water system better here in the new house.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

susankat said:


> Most dechlorinators will remove chlorine and chloramine from the water, which in most cities it is now required to use chloramine. They will also help remove a lot of the metals that are in the water.
> 
> I have done large water changes, up to 90 to 100% and use dechlorinator and not once did I have ammonia left behind. And that is in 30 years. I very seldom test my tanks anymore since I can tell when something is wrong and need to test for something. And moving into a new house like we did in Oct. I checked the water 3 times a week for about 2 months, and now slacking off on that as I know the water system better here in the new house.


They neutralize chloramine by removing the chlorine from it. What is left is ammonia. Chloramine is made of chlorine and ammonia. chlorine removers that remove chloramine actually only remove the chlorine...what is left is ammonia. If you remove chlorine after your 100% water change and get no ammonia readings, you: 1)don't have chloramine in your water. 2)used a product which removes chlorine and also removes ammonia.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I understand what your saying and know what your saying is true. but;
Most dechlorinators these days will remove both chlorine and chloramine. Very few are left that don't remove both. Most dechlorinators will also remove a lot of the metals that is found in the water. Unless your on a well that doesn't have chlorine in it or using RO water I would still advise using a dechlorinator.
Amquel + will remove chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and if you have a heavy planted tank you need the nitrates for your plants or you need to dose them so I don't use it unless there is a big problem with the water.


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## lagniappe (Jan 11, 2008)

susankat said:


> I understand what your saying and know what your saying is true. but;
> Most dechlorinators these days will remove both chlorine and chloramine. Very few are left that don't remove both. Most dechlorinators will also remove a lot of the metals that is found in the water. Unless your on a well that doesn't have chlorine in it or using RO water I would still advise using a dechlorinator.
> Amquel + will remove chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and if you have a heavy planted tank you need the nitrates for your plants or you need to dose them so I don't use it unless there is a big problem with the water.


Anything that removes chlorine will also neutralize chloramine,so there have been products that do both for as long as there have been products that remove chlorine. If you have chloramine in your water supply,the products that only remove chlorine and chloramine will leave the ammonia...the products he used were Stress Coat and Aqua Safe dechlorinators. If the bottle doesn't specify the removal of ammonia,and one applies the[chlorine remover]to the water containing chloramine,the chlorine will be removed and the ammonia left behind. Amquel,Ultimate,prime,.....there are many products that remove ammonia. I use Ultimate, but only when shipping.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Wow I think I see a lot of mis-information here. 

1.) Aquasafe removes chlorine and neutralizes chloramines to non-toxic forms. It does not turn it into toxic ammonia. However it will not remove free ammonia caused by the fish or other biowaste. Aquasafe also removes heavy metals and adds a conditioner which helps with the fish's slime coat. I personally prefer Prime as it is a better product that also removes ammonia and detoxifies nitrite and nitrate.

"AquaSafe also neutralizes chloramine by breaking down the bond between chlorine and ammonia while reducing both fish-toxic chlorine and ammonia components."



> ...because maybe what the cycle stuff does is that it STARTS the cycle process by adding ammonia, which is food for certain bacteria. I think your ammonia will drop once you stop adding the cycle.


2.)Cycle does not contain ammonia!! It contains the beneficial bacteria needed to break down ammonia and nitrite into the less harmful nitrate. It helps to establish your tank CYCLE faster...hence the name. If you are reading ammonia on your test kit I would add more Cycle, since your tank does not sound established yet. 

3.) DO not use API stress coat! Because of all the mis-information you switched product and now your are doing the one thing that lagniappe was afraid that Aquasafe was doing! Stresscoat does not remove or detoxify chloramines. I don't think it says anything specific about chloramines on the bottle which means it will bind the chlorine but leave you with free ammonia ions. 

Petlover, I would keep using the first 2 products you had until you can get a dechlorinator that also removes ammonia (like Prime). Keep in mind that after ammonia starts to go down nitrites will go up (Prime), so keep up with the water changes. I would continue to do 25% every day until you see both ammonia and nitrite levels go down.

Here is a good link that shows the differences in conditioners. If sodium thiosulfate is the key ingredient, it will not detoxify chloramines: Product review of Water Conditioners / Dechlorinators for the aquarium


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank You Dmaaaaax, You put it into words that I can't.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

ok. I guess i will stay with aquasafe but i am not trusting cycle with fish in the tank. Moonshine appears to be 2 weeks pregnant. How long before she drops?


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

> 2.)Cycle does not contain ammonia!! It contains the beneficial bacteria needed to break down ammonia and nitrite into the less harmful nitrate.


wasn't sure about that anyways, thanks for clearing that up.....


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

i'll continue to do daily 25% water changes. actually i think i'll go with prime.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

petlover516 said:


> i'll continue to do daily 25% water changes. actually i think i'll go with prime.


Good luck and keep us updated with how it is going. BTW here is a link to Seachem's prime. This is one company I swear by for my plant and fish needs. They explain each product in great detail and they have good articles:

Seachem. Prime


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

ok yesterday i bought the prime, went home and found out my filter had been turned off the whole time. i immediately did a 35% water change and used the new prime. after my ammonia levels still had'nt decreased much, i added a little straight to the tank. i will be testing my ammonia later tonight. hopefully it decreased.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

petlover516 said:


> ok yesterday i bought the prime, went home and found out my filter had been turned off the whole time. i immediately did a 35% water change and used the new prime. after my ammonia levels still had'nt decreased much, i added a little straight to the tank. i will be testing my ammonia later tonight. hopefully it decreased.


Make sure you add enough prime for the whole tank volume, not just the water change. Also since you are cycling, I think the bottle says you can double the amount or something.

One other thing to keep in mind. Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate so that your biofilter can remove it. If your biofilter is not quit up to par just yet (still cycling), it may not be removing it. I am not sure if a test kit will still read it as ammoina even though it is no longer in its toxic form. You might want to ask that question on Seahem's forum. In other words, you might still get a high ammonia reading on your test kit, even if it has been detoxified with the Prime, but your fish should be ok.

Good luck.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

so your saying that when i do my water changes i should add a whole capful(5ml) to the bucket? all the whisper has is a black mesh piece and a bio-bag. i think i might switch with an aquaclear-i know aqua clear looks like a power filter, but i've heard it does a job like a fluval canister. i was originally planning on using a 45 gal 4 a project on stress and seeing if fish can relieve it but my dad went right out and bought an oscar, who has now shown behavior indicating he would destroy cardinal tets, so i'd rather get 5 of them instead of zebras but i want to here what would seem better-cards or glofish?


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

the oscar will eat EVERYTHING you have just mentioned. get rid of it, it will grow too big for your tank. bring it back to the store!!!!!


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

the oscar is in the 45 gal, so what i want to do is get 5 cardinals 4 the 20 gal, replacing the zebras. Speaking about cycling-the ammonias 0ppm and i now have nitrite at 0.1ppm.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

uh...where did everybody go? the nitrite is still steadily increasing. we had gone to the LFS today to look for the bronze cories. they only had albinos but i also saw a skunk cory and other interesting cories. tomorrow we are going to look for them at aquarium adventure...who knows? maybe they will have orange lazors!


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Looking good.

BTW the rep at Seachem said that although Prime will detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, it will still show up on most test kits. This is a false positve, so you should be ok, but keep up with small water changes until fully cycled.


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## petlover516 (Nov 12, 2008)

i got alot of news. we'll start with the bad-we got the kribs,(no bronze cories) but we accidentally got 2 males. the larger male chases the smaller one and tries to chase the platies. we will probably return the big and keep the small because the small did something very good-discovered a fry, who is now in a breeder net. as of now, the fry looks like a little tadpole with big eyes and is a pale, dull purplish-brown in overall color with a reddish head. i have tried crushing up flakes in my hands but it does'nt seem to eat them. i will look for fry food for platies(which it is a fry of). the good: the tank completed the cycle with nitrates at 5ppm. while at aquarium adventure i saw a golden taenius for 40$(30$ if in the aquarium adventure club, which i am in). my dad just got a 55(with everything)along with a 30 and a 20 all for 50$ . i want to see if i could make the 55 a saltwater and maybe i could upgrade the 20 gal to 30, and use the the new 20 as a quarantine, and maybe make the current 20 into a breeder tank or a sump.


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## Fishboydanny1 (Jun 13, 2008)

the females are brighter in color, but the males have longer fins, barely displaying the red belly patch.....


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