# Water Quality!!!



## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

I am having some weird problems with my water quality lately.
All of a sudden, my 30 gallon tank (running for over a year) is having severe problems with nitrate/ammonia.
My 10 gallon tank is also having these problems, although the tank is about a month old.

I have had two small fish die in my 10 gallon. (guessing from the water quality) and the 2 gouramis in that tank are just laying on the gravel.. very very lathargic...
In my 30 gallon tank, no fish have died from the water quality... But they are all very non-active. The angelfish just sit at the top of the tank with their top fin out of the water.. the sharks just sit there and twitch.

I have added aquarium salt for fresh water to help with the ammonia and nitrate levels. I have also started using Prime instead of aquaplus... but I have lost one of the small fish just last night.
I do not want to lose anymore fish and am getting a little stressed from the water quality.
The large tank will be having a big move into another room tomorrow and I don't want to have to worry about water quality anymore!

Anyone have ANY advice on what to do?
I appreciate any feedback!


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## kardon (Jan 4, 2009)

Hmm... can you post the test results?

Also, what is the frequency and amount of your water changes?


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## kpkbfish420 (Jan 5, 2009)

What's your water change schedule?


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

I had changed the water in the 30 gallon tank 2 weeks previous, then got a sick fish... so I started to medicate the water and worked my water-changing to the schedule of the medication.. Which was pretty much 25% every 48 hours.
after that, I had my water tested and the levels were high (not sure the exact numbers.. they were just astounded)... and I was told to do 25% water changes for three days
I did so, went back in and they said levels were still high and to use freshwater salt and prime. i am getting my water tested again this afternoon, but my fish are still lathargic/twitchy.

in the 10 gallon tank, i changed the water once before the "levels were high" bit..
a few times before the fish were introduced, and once after.
they have been in there for 2-3 weeks. 
i treated with salt and prime and getting test results today.. but my two fish are barely moving at all. just laying on the bottom of the tank.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, 
I just got back from the pet store for my water test.
Yikes, it is still around dangerous.
The ammonia was dark green (he wouldn't say the exact level.. just showed me how bad it was) between the last and second last greens.
The Nitrite wasn't as bad as the nitrate. And the nitrate was between the last 3 on the scale.
Both tanks were like this....


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## kardon (Jan 4, 2009)

Most stores use strips that test up to 6.0 for ammonia, so you're probably looking at about 5 ish. Not good.

I _think_ the nitrates test up to 160, so probably around 120-140? Also not good.

Prime will work to add bacteria, which may help break down that ammonia. I would use some kind of neutralizer for now, and see if that will take care of your ammonia/nitrates. Amquel should work for that.

I would keep up those water changes. Are you doing all your changes from the gravel/bottom? If so, you are probably taking some bacteria with it. Try sucking a lot of water from the top. This will avoid taking out too much bacteria, and will also take out more ammonia. (Ammonia is usually more concentrated at the top of the water)


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

All my water changes (except for a rock cleaning just now on the 10 gallon) have been taking water from the top.

Will daily water changes help even out the ammonia/nitrate?


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

Would the high levels of ammonia/nitrate have an affect of the oxygen in the water?
Should I be looking at getting some airstones in the tank to provide more oxygen?


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## kardon (Jan 4, 2009)

Hmm... when you say all your water changes have been from the top, do you mean while using the medication, or since setting up the tank?

If you have not cleaned the rocks in a year (when you set up the 30), the accumulated detritus will definitely cause toxic levels of nitrates, nitrites and ammonia.

Aeration will probably not benefit you enough to cause a major difference. Nitrates don't directly affect the levels of dissolved oxygen as much as they reduce the fishes ability to extract oxygen from the water. One reason to introduce salt into the aquarium is that the salt will block the effect nitrates have on the fishes' gills.


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## kardon (Jan 4, 2009)

saddison said:


> Will daily water changes help even out the ammonia/nitrate?


Oh, and yes, water changes will help. Really, removal of water is the only effective way to remove nitrates, aside from what is used by plants.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

alright. sounds great.
i am moving the tank tomorrow, how much of a water change should I do? should I keep the water that is closer to the rocks or closer to the top?


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

A scheduled weekly water change of 20 of the trank water, and gravel vacumming in a 4 section pattern ( a different section each week) will keep your water quaility high and your fish healthy. I would do a 20% WC asaap and than test the water. Never do more than that or you will recycle you tank.


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## archer772 (Nov 8, 2008)

as long as you dont vaccum the gravel each time or change out all the media in your filter you can do a 75% WC without cycleing the tank


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

Only under extreme situation would you ever do 75% Water Change. 20% is generally the excepted amount of water to remove from the tank. To remove medication and metals from your water, you use carbon. Thats why when you treat a tank you have to remove it. The problem here is a more lacks maintence schedule, life sometimes get busy and sometimes you let the it go by, without realizing that it really been sometime from the last water change. If he just does a 20% WC and test the water and then repeat in a couple of days if needed, he can bring the WQ back up quickly.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

i have been doing constant water changes the past 2 weeks, and before that i was doing monthly changes.
its not about a lack of structure maintenance, its just that i was told obviously other routines that you believe in.


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

Than I stand corrected......


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

So what is causing the high ammonia/nitrite in your established tank?

1.) Test your tap water, maybe something changed and you are actually getting it from the tap the first time you changed it.

2.) Are you overstocked with fish? Too many fish in too small a tank. General rule is no more than 1" of fish per gallon.

3.) Are you overfeeding? Don't feed for a few days. Chances are they aren't really in the mood to eat anyways?

4.) Not enough filtration? What type of filters are you using for your tanks? Are they made for that amount of gallons? When did you clean them last? Are they still running as good as when they were new?

Until you find out about your tap continue to do 25% changes every 48hr if possible and always add Prime to each change. Good luck.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

great news.
I bought two test kits today to test the water at home (it would be the same amount for gas to drive to the pet store)..
and i have the actual levels of my waters!

10 gallon tank ... nitrate is around 10 (not quite 0 yet but getting there), nitrite is around 1.5, ph is around 7.3... ammonia is around 1.3 .. still not 0 but getting there! 

30 gallon tank .. nitrate is 0, nitrite is 0, ph is around 7, ... and ammonia is around 2. (still high but not AS high!)


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

Sounds good. Nitrate is not bad for fish and they can tolerate up to 40 or so, but get that nitrite and ammonia in check.

EDIT: BTW I was told by a Seachem tech, that prime will detoxify ammonia but still make it available for bacteria to cycle. However, this means it will still show up on most test kits. He calls it a false positive and says you should be safe as far as ammonia and nitrites. Have you lost any fish after ~24hrs from first using Prime?


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

I lost one fish on thursday morning. i started using prime on wednesday night.

in my 10 gallon fish i have 2 paradise gouramis, 2 mollies and 1 lone tiger barb (his friends both passed ) 
in my 30 gallon i have 3 angel fish, 2 bala sharks, 2 skirted tetras, 2 dwarf gouramis and a pleco.

i was told that it is not overstocked. at least, i hope its not.

thank you for checking on the ammonia I appreciate it!
I am glad all my hard work and stress is finally showing something good


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

Will keep doing what your doing... and you will get you water quality perfect. Sorry for your loses.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

It sounds like the Prime worked then because you did not lose any from Thurs night on which would be 24hrs. It takes longer for detoxifying to work and that last fish on Thurs morning was probably already on the way out unfortunately.

Your 10g sounds ok and so does your 30g for now, but angels, gouramis, and plecos can get pretty big so keep an eye on your ammonia/nitrites/nitrates because as they get bigger they make more bio-waste.


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## gunnie (Nov 16, 2008)

What type of test kits did you purchase? If your fish store was using the test strips, you were probably not getting an accurate reading. Test strips are notoriously inaccurate and expensive. The AP Master Test kit is inexpensive and accurate, and it also has the ammonia test that will not be skewed by using Prime or other conditioners that neutralize ammonia. With that said, you may also want to purchase Amquel plus next time you buy some conditioner while working on the ammonia levels. Besides neutralizing the ammonia, Amquel plus also neutralizes the nitrites, which will also help in reducing the stress on your fish until you get the tank stabilized.


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## Dmaaaaax (Nov 20, 2008)

gunnie said:


> What type of test kits did you purchase? If your fish store was using the test strips, you were probably not getting an accurate reading. Test strips are notoriously inaccurate and expensive. The AP Master Test kit is inexpensive and accurate, and it also has the ammonia test that will not be skewed by using Prime or other conditioners that neutralize ammonia. With that said, you may also want to purchase Amquel plus next time you buy some conditioner while working on the ammonia levels. Besides neutralizing the ammonia, Amquel plus also neutralizes the nitrites, which will also help in reducing the stress on your fish until you get the tank stabilized.



Prime also neutralizes nitrites and nitrates. There is no need to buy Amquel at this point. 

The API kit is ok but will still not read ammonia or nitrite correctly when Prime is used. Any liquid based reagent test kit that is Nessler based, silica will not work, but as long as he knows that he has nothing to worry about. Seachem sells their own kits that get around this. 

I have tried many kits and my personal preference is Red Sea for fresh water. Their instructions are straight foward, their colors are accurate, and their tubes have stoppers that are internal, so you don't get liquid everywhere in between shaking and adding drops. They also sell some of the harder to find kits like Oxygen, CO2, Iron....etc.


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## gunnie (Nov 16, 2008)

Dmaaaaax said:


> Prime also neutralizes nitrites and nitrates. There is no need to buy Amquel at this point.
> 
> The API kit is ok but will still not read ammonia or nitrite correctly when Prime is used. Any liquid based reagent test kit that is Nessler based, silica will not work, but as long as he knows that he has nothing to worry about. Seachem sells their own kits that get around this.
> 
> I have tried many kits and my personal preference is Red Sea for fresh water. Their instructions are straight foward, their colors are accurate, and their tubes have stoppers that are internal, so you don't get liquid everywhere in between shaking and adding drops. They also sell some of the harder to find kits like Oxygen, CO2, Iron....etc.


Thank you for pointing out about the Prime. I did not know that it dealt with nitrites and nitrates also! I stand corrected. 

However, I respectfully disagree with you on the ammonia test in the AP master test kit. Unless they've changed it recently, when the master test kit changed to include a nitrate test, it also included an ammonia test which is a two part test with the colors changing from yellow to green, which in my understanding, was the test which was not affected by products like Amquel plus or Ammo Lock. Not a big deal, but I have been making this test kit recommendation for years, and will continue to do so unless there is some data I am not aware of. The AP master test kit is much more inexpensive to use than other liquid test kits, and it has always been my intention to keep this hobby as inexpensive and uncomplicated as possible, so people will stay in it. :fish5:


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

One product recommendation is merely an opinion, ones choice, that is not neither right or wrong. I been using API test kits for years and never had a problem with any of the results. If I remember correctly from science class and that was along time ago. The reagents are basicly the same for all products, because these are the reagents that show the results you are looking for. I'm not sure if I read it correctly when sonmeone seid one kit doesn't show the effects of a used product on the reading you are taking. So what is the point of the testing than with that test kit, as you are tring to get a reading that true to the water in that tank. IMO Liquid test kits are what all hobbist should be using and the only thing I ever seen in price differnce it the different number of test you can do prefrom.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

Hello again all.
I am happy to announce that my 30 gallon tank is thriving. The water is clear, no longer smells, and all fish are happily swimming about, not staying in one area at the surface. 
However... I am upset to announce that my 10 gallon is still gloomy.
The gouramis still lay on the bottom of the tank, barely moving... they lay right beside each other, sometimes on top of each other (both are males) and one of my mollies has started to lay on the gravel as well, curling up into a "c" shape.
the other mollie, and the tiger barb are still swimming about.. 
why would my mollie be curling up like it is? and are gouramis usually on the bottom of the tank?
should i take some of my now happy and healthy water from my 30 gallon and put it into my 10 gallon? or would that completely throw off the bacterial chain?
I really am not sure what to do and need a lot of help. I have never had a situation like this and hate to lose fish...

Please, if you have any ideas what to do with my 10 gallon.. let me know

also, would incondesoint light have any more benefits than regular 25 watt aquarium bulbs? could those bulbs be putting the fish into a "depression" state.. or is that just obscure?

Thanks for all your help...




also, i got the test strips for the 5 in 1 test...
and i got the drip test with two bottles for ammonia. where it goes from yellow to green,


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## gunnie (Nov 16, 2008)

saddison said:


> Hello again all.
> I am happy to announce that my 30 gallon tank is thriving. The water is clear, no longer smells, and all fish are happily swimming about, not staying in one area at the surface.
> However... I am upset to announce that my 10 gallon is still gloomy.
> The gouramis still lay on the bottom of the tank, barely moving... they lay right beside each other, sometimes on top of each other (both are males) and one of my mollies has started to lay on the gravel as well, curling up into a "c" shape.
> ...


Until you figure out what's going on with that tank, a water change is usually a good thing to do for your fish. Until you get those numbers down, you might want to consider daily water changes. Forgive me if you've already answered this question, but is this tank cycled?


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

Yes you are going to have to spend more time doing emergancy WC's on that 10 gal tank. I would do another 25% ASAP.... and test is the levels, they should come down some..... you will most likely need to do it again tomorrow and the next day. Just don't distirb the gravel. The smaller the tank the quick the levels get dangerous. Still keep a watch full eye on the 30gal. but you will spend more time on the 10 doing water changes.


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## saddison (Jan 9, 2009)

so, just 1 25% water change every day?
that won't reset the tank will it?
and how do you put the water back in without disturbing the gravel?


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## djrichie (May 15, 2008)

To answer your question on how to put it back. Carefully and slowly.....if you can put a plate or something to deflect the flow is a good ideal. The main concern here is to not remove the bio-colony from the tank until you have the levels under control. than you can start vacumiong the gravel in 4 section a new section each week when you do a water change to keep the colony strong


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