# Fish Or Fishless Cycle Process?



## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Set up a new 5 gal octagon aquarium last Friday afternoon w/no fish put in. After I was done, the water was perfectly "crystal clear". It looked amazing! Wife got home from work at 5:30PM, the water was the same.......crystal clear. Got up the next morning and the tank was pretty cloudy and we were SHOCKED, to say the least. That afternoon, took some water over to Petsmart to test and it tested fine. The numbers: pH: 7.2, Chlorine/Chloramine: O, Ammonia (don't remember what he told me), Nitrate: O, Nitrate: O, Hardness: 250, Alkalinity: 120, Temperature: 82 (checked thermometer we put into tank). 

We were told at that time that the water was fine and the cloudiness would clear up in a few days. We weren't told anything else, but to wait for it to clear. Went back to Petsmart that night and was told about the "fish cycling" process by an employee who swears by it. She said that the "fishless" process could take days to weeks to complete. Also, done some Internet research and read that people do put two "hardy" fish (minnow's) into the 5 gallon to get the "cycle" process going faster/done quicker. Their body and poop is what the tank needs, I read. We have patience, but would like to have the "cycle" done faster so we could get a male Betta into it. I also read that leaving the tank light on all night would help the process as well. The tank is somewhat clearer right now, but not nearly as clear as we'd like it. 
Going back to Petsmart tomorrow for another water test. We are definitely thinking about the "fish" cycling process.
Thoughts?


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## chenowethpm (Jan 8, 2014)

I would go with fishless. I am a newb and have only done fish in cycling and I feel bad about it, but that was before I did the proper research. Your fish create ammonia through their waste and this is toxic to fish. You need to cycle your tank so that a colony of bacteria can convert the ammonia. There is a very good thread on this forum about the fishless cycle and after reading it I will never do that to my fish again. I am not in any way an expert or even a novice and I'm sure someone will chime in with all the info you need. I just like learning by joining the duscussion.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Appreciate the reply, but we are still thinking about doing the fish cycling thing. For one thing, don't have to keep adding ammonia/chemicals to the water all the time until the correct number is reached. Since the fish we will use will help the process go faster, we don't mind losing them (2), if that happens. Our goal is to have a nice male Betta live comfy and happy. Of course we'd wait until the water is completely stable before adding the Betta. Anyway, I've seen fish floating (dead) in tanks in stores and I just advised the employee of it. I didn't "freak out" about seeing them floating.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

If you are looking for speed the fishless cycle is much faster!! Would be done in 2-4 weeks fish in may take two months. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fish-poop-you-primer-8310.html


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## MeganV (Sep 22, 2013)

If you go to your fish store and ask for a chunk of filter media out of one of their tanks.. you can jump start the cycle with that "bacteria" on the filter and just put it in your tank.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

fish in cycling is in no way faster than fishless

with fish in, you need to be doing constant water changes to keep the ammonia levels down and safe for the cycling fish, this slows down the whole process and stresses the fish,

with fishless, you add the ammonia source yourself and keep it higher than what would be safe, this develops the bacteria colony faster than with fish,

anyways, if you only want a betta, what were you planning on doing with minnows when finished? flushing them?


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## vreugy (May 1, 2013)

You need your own test kit. Most lfs's use strips. They are not accurate.

I personally like the API freshwater test kit. Get it online. It's a bit cheaper.

Bettas love fresh clean water so a kit will be a boon to him. It's a lot cheaper in the long run to buy the kit, rather than keep buying fish. Not to mention it isn't fair to the fish.

have a blessed day


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

Triple hurrays and Yays for what Megan V said!!!

We constantly see the fish vs fishless cycling threads... but there is one key point that is often not mentioned, or at least no emphasized enough; and the word "cycling" gets so over used that it takes on multiple meanings.

CYCLING your tank is the _*process of getting your tank to the point*_ where the ammonia produced within the tank (or added) is fully converted to nitrite and then fully to nitrate by the nitrobacter and nitrosomas bacteria. (excuse my spelling mistakes)

Your tank is CYCLED when your tank is converting ammonia to nitrate.

Your tank is FULLY CYCLED when your COMPLETELY STOCKED tank is FULLY CONVERTING ammonia to nitrate.

This is why you continue to add fish slowly to a tank that is cycled.

Key point: What is dangerous to your fish is the spikes in ammonia and nitrites that occur while your tank is cycling.
These spikes *always* occur when you do a fish cycle unless you are doing continual massive water changes or you have two male guppies in a 100 gallon tank. (I did that once!) (These last two methods take forever to cycle a tank) The key to not stressing your fish or buying sacrificial fish is to avoid the spikes. Nothing more, nothing less.

But how???

Fishless cycling removes fish from the equation. Your fish go through no ammonia/nitrite spikes at all, and depending on how much ammonia you are dosing your tank with, you can fully stock it immediately upon the completion of the cycle. (with a 100% change of course to rid yourself of those nasty nitrates) It has been proven over and over again that it is the faster way of cycling a tank vs. using fish. The complaints (whining?) of not having any fish for a few weeks are ignorance at best. If your fish get really sick from the cycle and don't die, but get some other disease, are you going to add fish? If they appear ok, but they surely are in a weakened state, is this really a good time to add new fish? If they die... do you add fish immediately? If you don't, your cycling will have to start all over again.

And getting back to what Megan V said.... get some filter media from inside one of the dealers tanks where you buy the fish. If its from the same tank, you are no more likely to get pick up a disease that already isn't on the fish. And the best part... and this is the important part... if you only buy a couple of fish... just like that "safe" amount for the fish cycle, you won't have any spikes. So stress free cycling!! Your tank is cycled immediately, and if you add fish slowly from this point, never a spike in sight!! Its so simple its brilliant!

ROFLMAO!!! I'm such a maroon! I just reread the OP. A 5 gallon single Betta tank!? A little bit of filter media from the store and your done - add Betta and enjoy. And do yourself a favor... find a mom and pop fish store that makes its money in the aquarium hobby, not giving dogs shampoos and curls.

Question - what do you plan on doing with the minnows if they live?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, it looks like (uncertain though) water has pretty much cleared up and I see nothing floating on top of the water. Plus, had the water tested 3 times yesterday by three different pet stores. The Nitrate and Nitrite levels were zero, Ammonia was zero, pH 6.9-7.2, Chlorine zero, Alkalinity 120 to 180. 

Ok, all you "Aquarists" in this forum, IS our tank ready for a male Betta, Moss Ball and two Ghost Shrimp? It's a 5 gal octagon one. 

If it's not ready, we are going to buy a couple of Rosy Red Minnows to finish the cycling. Have found out that some Aquarists are for fish cycling and some aren't. The ones that aren't, that's there choice. Anyway, the minnows are NOT the fish we want as fish pets, a Betta is. So, the minnows would serve the purpose that we want them to.....finish the cycling. If the minnows live, we would take them out of the tank and put them into the pond in our apt complex.....was told that that would be no problem. Don't leave the minnows in the tank and let the Betta eat them......that is definitely a "NO, NO".


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

if your nitrate levels are 0, you are not cycled, 

Once whatever ammonia has been converted to nitrite then to nitrate you will see a nitrate reading unless you have a ton of real plants in there.

feel free to get the moss ball now though, it will also help use up some ammonia, live plants can benefit any tank from day one

ps, be aware that bettas will sometimes eat the shrimps or harass them to death, it all depends on the fish so it might still work. if it does, then you have a good stocking plan


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

As Marshall said, no nitrates = not cycled.

If I am reading correctly (and if I am not, my apologies), there is nothing currently inside your aquarium except water. You can wait until the cows come home and you WILL NOT have a cycled tank. Also, I don't remember which filter you are running on the tank.

Water clarity has nothing to do with cycled.

Not sure of the difference between sacrificing the minnows to cycling or to the Betta - oh wait - to the Betta would be natural. Thinking they are way to big anyway.

Yes, putting any plants in is almost always a good idea.


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## Jake050500 (Aug 26, 2013)

Definitely fish, once you do Fishless. After a few weeks your nitrates and nitrites will spike causing deadly water for your fish.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Jake050500 said:


> Definitely fish, once you do Fishless. After a few weeks your nitrates and nitrites will spike causing deadly water for your fish.


Not sure what you are saying here but I think you need to read on fishless cycle.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Botiadancer said:


> As Marshall said, no nitrates = not cycled.
> 
> If I am reading correctly (and if I am not, my apologies), there is nothing currently inside your aquarium except water. You can wait until the cows come home and you WILL NOT have a cycled tank. Also, I don't remember which filter you are running on the tank.
> 
> ...


The aquarium has a Betta Grass Pad, 4 artificial plants and a "swim-thru" rock in it. The filter is a Marineland Eclipse System Rite-Size Filter Cartridge featuring Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon w/a BIO Wheel. 

My next posting will be about the minnows and how the aquarium is now (Jan 22).


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## vreugy (May 1, 2013)

Keep a close eye on the Betta's fins and the artificial plants. That is if they are plastic. I think the silk would be fine. I started out with plastic and within two days "her" tail was split in several places. 

have a blessed day


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

*UPDATE:*

Bought 2 Rosy Red Minnows and a Moss Ball last night. Since the "fish of choice" for us will be a beautiful male Betta, we are using the minnows for cycling. As of this morning, our aquarium water is CRYSTAL CLEAR again and it looks beautiful!!*w3*banana dance Fed the minnows this AM and they are swimming around very, very nicely. Will take some water to Petsmart tomorrow to be checked. As soon as the water is ok for a Betta, will get one and put the minnows in our apt complex pond. We WON'T put a nice Betta in with these two minnows. The minnows will have served the purpose we wanted them for. So, so far we have a VERY NICE aquarium going!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Took some water to Petsmart this AM and here are the results:

Ammonia= .5 PPM
Nitrate= 10 PPM
Nitrite= 0 PPM
Hardness= 75 PPM (Florida water is hard)
Chlorine= 0 PPM
Alkalinity= 125 PPM
pH= 7.2 PPM

Was told that all were safe. The Alkalinity was "ideal" and the pH was neutral/safe. These two Rosy Red Minnows are doing their job!! Was told it was ok to buy/put a male Betta and 1 or 2 Ghost Shrimp in, but will wait a week or two for even better readings. Will get the water tested a couple more times as well. Printed out a Freshwater Aquarium Log to write all info/numbers on.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

until your ammonia is consistently at 0, you aren't cycled, you still need to go through the nitrite phase next, that should still take a few weeks


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Marshall said:


> until your ammonia is consistently at 0, you aren't cycled, you still need to go through the nitrite phase next, that should still take a few weeks


Sent you a "Thanks", but will also say it here........Thanks! Will get the water tested again this weekend. Will keep everyone informed. The salesman at Petsmart told me the ammonia level was "safe", but we want to be *ABSOLUTELY SURE* that all of the readings are "safe"! Anyway, it's pretty neat right now watching these little minnows swim around and feed, but they will go when the Betta comes.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

I have a question here, What is the purpose coming here to ask about cycling? When you are not listening to valued advise from several experienced fish keepers, and going by the advice of big box stores that don't really care whether your fish live or die so they can make a buck!

Ok a question and a statement.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

susankat said:


> I have a question here, What is the purpose coming here to ask about cycling? When you are not listening to valued advise from several experienced fish keepers, and going by the advice of big box stores that don't really care whether your fish live or die so they can make a buck!
> 
> Ok a question and a statement.


Was just wondering about cycling. I have already heard from some "experienced fish keepers" that have told me that fish cycling is fine. You really don't think that THIS is the only fish forum I'm involved with, do you?? I like to get people's ideas, recommendations, but it sure doesn't mean that I must do it that way! You may think that way about pet stores, but that sure doesn't mean that I have to!! Just because I don't do what YOU think I should do, doesn't concern me! If I was convinced that Fishless cycling was better and wanted to do that........I WOULD!! And, I say all of this with


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Cycling with fish in is fine,as long as you don't mind fish that are subject to ;shorter lifespans,lowered immunity to diseases(which will effect the new fish you introduce to your tank in the future),less than normal coloring, possible sterilityand the death of a fish for no real good reason.
I probly left out a bunch of other things that ammonia and nitrite poisoning due to fish,but maybe some of those "experienced fish keepers" on other sites will help you out with those.
It is clear to me why so many think this is the best site.I would thoroughly checkout any other info those pro's gave you before it is too late.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

I second what Susankat said. (though, like her, I know the answer)

And for other new fishkeepers that might be reading...
The only things worth testing for at this point would be ammonia and nitrite. When you get some nitrite readings, you can start testing for nitrate.

Don't think I saw any mention of a heater.

A quote from the International Betta Congress page (IBC)

"They should be kept at mid 70s to low 80s F."


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Lol ok what would convince you? You know that it is safer for fish and takes less time not sure how else you would of been convinced. If I told you that Petsmart uses test strips, not the liquid test kits, and that these strips have been proven to be very inaccurate at times would you invest in a test kit for your pets?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well.......we are doing the Fish Cycling thing b/c we decided we *WANTED TO*! I see nothing wrong with that. A Petsmart employee who has 3 aquarium's told me about doing it, that he has done it, BUT the Manager of the store doesn't like that kind of cycling. He isn't going to fire the dude b/c he likes Fish Cycling, but if a customer asks the Manager about Fish Cycling he would tell them "no" and why he feels that way. Bottom line, some folks like using Rosy Red Minnows for cycling while others don't. It really is up to the person who is cycling the aquarium. BTW, while we were in our Petsmart's Fish/Aquarium Dept. a lady came over and got 30 Rosy Red Minnow's to feed her ducks. She told us "they love them". Her decision what she wants to feed her ducks, right? I read about people who feed these minnows to their turtles. If you love and want, as pets, Rosy Red Minnows, that's entirely up to you........but let other folks do what they want to do.* Thank you for your recommendations about this, but they shouldn't sound like demands! * Please don't get upset when someone doesn't take your recommendations, but takes the recommendations of others. Thank you.
Now, this topic should be done since we are doing the Fish Cycling now.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

No one is demanding you to do nothing. If you don't like the advice that we give, that's up to you. But don't take the tone of bragging about the way you are doing it here. Most reputable forums and fish stores will advise against fish in cycle, but as said that is your decision. 

But why cycle with fish when it will take months to cycle properly as you will be doing lots of water changes for weeks to come. At least 3 to 4 a week. Why hurt the fish when it isn't necessary? Fishless cycle is a lot faster from anywhere of 2 weeks to maybe 6 weeks where fish in takes 2 to 4 months.

I have probably been to more big box stores than you are of age. I have been doing this for 30+ years as has many here. That is why we like this forum so well. We're here to help new people to enjoy this hobby as much as we do. In my experience, people with your attitude don't stay in the hobby long as they get tired of the problems that arise.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

susankat said:


> No one is demanding you to do nothing. If you don't like the advice that we give, that's up to you. But don't take the tone of bragging about the way you are doing it here. Most reputable forums and fish stores will advise against fish in cycle, but as said that is your decision.
> 
> But why cycle with fish when it will take months to cycle properly as you will be doing lots of water changes for weeks to come. At least 3 to 4 a week. Why hurt the fish when it isn't necessary? Fishless cycle is a lot faster from anywhere of 2 weeks to maybe 6 weeks where fish in takes 2 to 4 months.


Think/say what you want! Petco, Petsmart, Pet Supermart told me it was fine and less work b/c our aquarium is only a 5 gallon one. Our readings are darn near perfect for a Betta right now, but we are waiting a couple of weeks. These Rosy Red Minnows are NOT pets for us. If they don't die, we will give them to someone. For now, they are totally "frisky".


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Lol I feel sorry for the betta when it gets there.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

susankat said:


> Lol I feel sorry for the betta when it gets there.


Not a very nice thing to say to someone in a forum! Actually we feel sorry for YOU because you just can't stand knowing that someone is doing something that you don't agree with. Oh well.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

She's upset that you would treat a life with such little respect, I agree with her


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> Think/say what you want! Petco, Petsmart, Pet Supermart told me it was fine


Most with experience know how this ends!And what it is worth!
Poor fish.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Marshall said:


> She's upset that you would treat a life with such little respect, I agree with her


So......you think the same way about the lady who bought 30 Rosy Red Minnow's to feed her ducks and the folks that buy these minnows to feed their turtles????????? All of you should read this article:
Cycling With Fish

Part of it says: "Cycling with fish is a natural method of getting Mother Nature to work for you. Although you may lose a couple of fish, this method will minimize the amount of chemical additives you use in your aquarium setup." 

These minnows aren't going to be our pets, so using them this way doesn't bother us at all! 

I can tell that this topic can be extremely controversial. Just what can you folks do when BIG/MAJOR pet stores/chains are telling their first-time aquarium owners to Fish Cycle??? Do Managers ask prospective employees at an interview, "do you believe in using fish to cycle an aquarium?" That isn't going to happen!

If you want to do Fishless Cycling and recommend that, that's fine, but for those new aquarium owners that are told that using minnows to do the job is fine also.......let them folks be and simply say "Good luck".


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Ok I will answer your questions then I will try to help.
The difference between using "feeder" fish and fish in cycling is you are knowingly putting the fish through pain and suffering.
The article does say that and then goes on to say to add stress zyme every day lol. It also says to not put in any fish that you do not want to die for 6 months.
If it doesn't bother you then that is your prerogative, but the idea of this and most forums is to try to help each other so we don't harm our fish.
Probably the biggest topic on this site!! I am 100% against fish in cycling but there are a lot of members here (most much wiser then me) who are not opposed to fish in cycling. The reason you have raised so much ire even in a couple of the members who are not opposed to it is your complete disregard (or appearance as such) for the safety of the fish you are using. As far as what we are going to do about big box stores telling people how to cycle (or stock or compatibility or 100 other things some of them say) is patiently try to help them through the trauma caused and allow them to see this great hobby at its best. You will never be asked at a job interview if you have sex with farm animals either (not sure what the point was)
Good luck.
Now that article is a lil vague you should read this http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fish-poop-you-primer-8310.html
. Get yourself a test kit, I would recommend the api liquid test kit, but whatever you decide make sure it has ammonia nitrite and nitrate and avoid the strips as they will give you headaches. Your tank will have an ammonia spike followed by a nitrite spike and finally start reading nitrates, this is when you have both types of bacteria needed to break down fish waste.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

Forums haven't changed much over the years, have they. *pc

Feeding fish to fish (or ducks) is a natural process. Tossing them in a tiny boiling (excuse me - frigid, no heater) cauldron of ammonia and nitrites is not. (we'll save the whole "feeder" quality fish issue for another time).

Not familiar with your type of filter, but do you know how to and how often to clean it? Its very likely you may start a mini cycle when you do.
Do you know how often you will be doing water changes and how much water you will be changing in the future?

What type of water conditioner are you using? What brand of food? Are you feeding the minnows? How much? How much will you feed the Betta? What do shrimp eat?
If your Betta gets sick, how much are you willing to spend to save it? Most medicines cost more than the price of the Betta.

I'm guessing the sum total of years of experience in fishkeeping by those that have commented on this post totals over 200 years. And some of those have had over 50 tanks at a time - that takes skill and dedication. People on this forum take the life of a fish very seriously, so if we have strong opinions on some things, its not personal, its because we care about fish. We have acquired a great amount of information and knowledge on fish, usually from books, (often written by biologists or ichthyologists or professional aquarists) but from forums and other online sources as well. Experience is a grand thing; never overlook an opportunity to learn from it.

I've never kept a Betta, but I've had lots of anabatinoids over the years. I'm reading that Bettas live to be 2-4 years old. Any Betta keepers want to chime in on how old theirs are?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

dalfed said:


> Ok I will answer your questions then I will try to help.
> The difference between using "feeder" fish and fish in cycling is you are knowingly putting the fish through pain and suffering.
> The article does say that and then goes on to say to add stress zyme every day lol. It also says to not put in any fish that you do not want to die for 6 months.
> If it doesn't bother you then that is your prerogative, but the idea of this and most forums is to try to help each other so we don't harm our fish.
> ...


Well, *FINALLLY* a descent reply that is fine to read.......thank you!k:
Now, I will tell you, and the forum, what's going on here:

Both Rosy Red Minnows are doing *GREAT*! They are both swimming around very nicely and when it comes to feeding time, they both go at it. Actually, I'm quite surprised b/c I've read that these minnows only like cold water and our water is about 82 degrees and again, the are doing *GREAT*. As the "pain and suffering" goes, these two look as happy as can be! Water is *CRYSTAL CLEAR* and they are loving it. As far as using the words "disregard for the fish" goes, we know both know what we are using these minnows for and we don't think the word "disregard" is there. I appreciate that some folks don't like the Fish Cycling way, but if an aquarium owner decides to do......let them and *don't* "bad mouth" them for doing it! Heck, I even read an article that stated that these minnows are even considered tropical fish/pets. Whatever, I thought. *ANOTHER* funny thing, a lot of folks on all fish forums tell new aquarium owners to continually take a sample of their water to their local pet store (Petco, Petsmart, etc.) to get it tested. The pet stores we've gone to use the strips and I've read NO Reviews about inaccuracy in them. Besides, the liquid stuff is costly! BTW, I was told by one replier that it seemed like I was "bragging" about doing the "fish cycling". I *WASN'T* bragging, just telling what we are doing/what we are using these minnows for. 

Anyway, again,* THANKS* for you *NICE* reply!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Botiadancer said:


> Forums haven't changed much over the years, have they. *pc
> 
> Feeding fish to fish (or ducks) is a natural process. Tossing them in a tiny boiling (excuse me - frigid, no heater) cauldron of ammonia and nitrites is not. (we'll save the whole "feeder" quality fish issue for another time).
> 
> ...


Now, for you:

Aquarium is a Marineland 5 gallon Eclipse Hex 5 one w/a Eclipse Rite-Size Z carbon cartridge filter and BIO Wheel. If you don't know what these are, look them up. They're both VERY GOOD! We have both a heater and a thermometer in the tank (so there ) We care about fish as well, but these two minnows will *NOT* be pets. It looks to me like a lot of folks put the fish they want as pets into an aquarium when it is cycling and then they cry when something happens. What do you mean "are you feeding the minnows"? Extremely silly question, but I guess there are those that wouldn't. *WE ARE!* Feeding TetraMin Tropical Flakes (a pinch...small pinch, twice a day). Our Betta will have TetraBetta Floating Mini Pellets and will "Fast" a day or two during the week. Will also give it frozen Brine Shrimp and frozen Bloodworms. Right now the aquarium water is about 82 degrees. We have bought all the necessary items to clean the tank and extra carbon cartridge filters. Know *ALL ABOUT* the water changes.......how to and when. We are new to this, but being "new" doesn't mean we can't read about the "Caring of a Betta" articles. The Betta will only be $4 and, if needed, we would get the medicine for it if it got sick. The Betta will be a nice pet for us, but since we can't hold, walk or take the thing anywhere, like the dog we will eventually get, it won't be a "high priority" pet that we would get totally upset losing, like a dog would be. We *WON'T* mistreat it, but I've never heard of anyone going to jail for mistreating a fish!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

For anyone who told us about the API Freshwater Master Test Kit......*THANK YOU* for that recommendation!k: Looked it up on Amazon and it looks like a great water test kit. Definitely looks *BETTER* than the strips! It is also sold at our local Petsmart. Amazon is $4 cheaper, so I printed out the Amazon one and will show it to Petsmart in hopes they will sell it to me at the Amazon price. Gee, this kit does it all and do it upwards of 800 times. Would beat the heck out of going to Petsmart for water tests all the time.

Also found out about a "toy" item called a Betta Log. Will have to go into the Betta forum and see if anyone uses this.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

dalfed

You recommended the API Master Test Kit and I totally appreciate that.....said "Thanks" to you for that.

What I'm wondering, how many (approx. percentage) of people use this product over the test strips? When first looked at, it does look like some kind of Chemistry Set! I totally understand the high accuracy compared to the test strips, but with the test strips you simply dip a test strip into the aquarium water and then compare to the color chart for a level reading. 

Our local Petsmart store only had one of each (Freshwater and Saltwater) of the Master Kit on their shelf. When I asked them if they ever have more than one, I was told "no, they don't sell that well." Of course that would mean that it would be a necessity to check the expiration date on the product! Now, does the "no, they don't sell that well" mean that people use the strips more, don't test at all or take a sample of their water to Petsmart for testing in which they use the strips? 

Obviously, not everyone can (or wants to) buy "high-end" stuff for their aquarium. The Master Kit is definitely higher in cost than the strips. We also found out just how much an Aquarium Stand can cost also (over $100)! 

Anyone can "chime in" on this......thanks.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Most here really do use the liquid kit.It is cheaper online(I know you know{$19}).If you are going to use strips please don't dip them directly in tank(I know you didn't say that),as they are chemically based,but rather remove a cup of water from tank,then dip and throw water out.


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## Buttons (Jan 22, 2014)

I'll be the site newb chiming in here. I'm setting up a new tank currently and will be doing fishless cycling. I've been there done that with fish in cycling and honestly don't like the wasted money of dead fish. I feel badly thinking about how many fish (even if they weren't going to be part of the final stocking of the tank) I put through physical discomfort and pain. 

As to the big box stores selling very few of the test kits...a test kit lasts a LONG time. After the initial cycling, most folks don't need to test very often, mostly just a nitrate test prior to weekly water changes or in the event of something wonky going on in their tanks. So, replacing those kits isn't like buying fish food. The kit I bought a few days ago has an expiration date in 2018. I'm not thinking it has been on the shelf for years! Also, due to the cost of the item, having 1-2 on the shelf is a shrink prevention measure on the part of the store. Having a full shelf makes it a lot easier for dishonest folks to steal them. 

Also, I guarantee you that big box employees do not get much in the way of good biologically sound training. They get the official training the corporate folks think is necessary to maximize store sales. Are some of them really knowledgeable? Of course! Are some of them there because they have bills to pay and needed a job? Yup. Would you trust the advice of a Walmart clerk on how to build a house? It is the same kind of thing with big box pet stores and advice. Some may know what they are talking about but the majority don't really. Even in some independent pet stores, the employees may not really have much knowledge. It is up to the consumer to do the research and learn the things they need to know. I assume the reason you are frequenting forums is for education. The forums really are the best place to really learn how things work IME. Folks who have been doing this for years and years, have studied various aspects, experimented and really gotten down and dirty with the hobby are why I visit forums. 

I'm not a rich person by any means. I'm skrimping on some aspects of my set up (I'd love a better filter for example!) in order to take care of more basic needs first (test kit!). The test kit and doing a fisheless cycle will save me a chunk of change in the long run. I'll be able to confidently stock my tank after it is finished without having to buy fish I don't want for cycling purposes or lose fish I do want due to the cycling process. 

You're absolutely free to run your tank as you wish. But, it is really hard to want to offer advice, experience and knowledge to someone who you know is going to pshaw everything you say.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

DVader said:


> dalfed
> 
> You recommended the API Master Test Kit and I totally appreciate that.....said "Thanks" to you for that.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately most people buy the test kit once they run into trouble (myself included) but it really should be a part of everyones start up costs. Learning the nitrogen cycle and how your water parameters are affected by the things that happen in your tank increase your knowledge hence your enjoyment of this hobby. Trust me if you start to enjoy and read you will end up with more then the original tank you have now. As far as not selling many the last poster was correct in saying most people will only need one in their lifetime (maybe replenish an individual bottle or two).
Knowledge gives confidence!!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Buttons said:


> I'll be the site newb chiming in here. I'm setting up a new tank currently and will be doing fishless cycling. I've been there done that with fish in cycling and honestly don't like the wasted money of dead fish. I feel badly thinking about how many fish (even if they weren't going to be part of the final stocking of the tank) I put through physical discomfort and pain.
> 
> As to the big box stores selling very few of the test kits...a test kit lasts a LONG time. After the initial cycling, most folks don't need to test very often, mostly just a nitrate test prior to weekly water changes or in the event of something wonky going on in their tanks. So, replacing those kits isn't like buying fish food. The kit I bought a few days ago has an expiration date in 2018. I'm not thinking it has been on the shelf for years! Also, due to the cost of the item, having 1-2 on the shelf is a shrink prevention measure on the part of the store. Having a full shelf makes it a lot easier for dishonest folks to steal them.
> 
> ...


First, I'm *NOT* "pshaw" everything that is being told me here.......I'm *FOR* the API Master Kit and we will get one.

The fish we are using for cycling cost us 14 cents each, which equals a grand total of 28 cents! The water is still *CRYSTAL CLEAR* and the two minnows are feeding and swimming perfectly! No "physical pain/discomfort" seen at all. If they could smile at me, they would! Yes, they will come out when the new Betta goes in. Betta and Rosy Red Minnow's absolutely *DON'T* get along. We will give them to someone.

First, our aquarium is *ONLY* a 5 gallon one! Most people in these aquarium forums have more than one aquarium and *MUCH* bigger than 5 gallons. Our filtering system was a really BIG "buying factor" for us! The BIO Wheel and filter, that came with the aquarium, were highly recommended. And, with such a good filtering system, only 1 male Betta, 1 Moss Ball and 1 or 2 Ghost Shrimp that will occupy the aquarium, water changes only need to be 1 or 2 times per month. Gravel vacuuming, filter change, BIO Wheel rinsed off once a month......depending on how they look. May change around some of the décor as well.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> And, with such a good filtering system, only 1 male Betta, 1 Moss Ball and 1 or 2 Ghost Shrimp that will occupy the aquarium, water changes only need to be 1 or 2 times per month. Gravel vacuuming, filter change, BIO Wheel rinsed off once a month......depending on how they look. May change around some of the décor as well.


After taking the time to cycle your tank make sure you only rinse any filter material in used tank water when you change water as tap(with chlorine) will kill your bacteria.You shouldn't need to replace the filter pads unless they are falling apart.The carbon and whatever is in them are useless so cutting the pouch open and dumping them is the way to go(if that is how your pads are).Water changes do a better job than carbon could on 99% of tank issues,the 1% being something toxic in your source water(which adding new water with same toxic crap wouldn't help much with).Most change water weekly,BUT with such a limited stocking plan you may be fine everyother week.Let your test results guide you,or just change some every week and enjoy more active,healthy fish.
Some of us are more adament about water changes than cycling!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

When I re read this thread I feel like "we all" got started on the wrong foot(or ended up this way)?I'm 49 and have kept fish for 30 years(and cycled "fish in").Not quite 60,but I truly think I understand "wisdom",and "old school" values.I'm a "tin knocker" basically for a living(copper roofs),and in my trade very few "old school" people share much of any information or experience.It is kind of still a"trade secret ,how you do that",in my trade.Many companies claim to do the same ,but have very many unexperienced "apprentices" and very few "journeyman/craftsman".There is years of training necessary to learn all(or even most important).People just don't share!
Much of what went wrong here is understanding peoples different values.Some have been in this so long ,it is not the value of an 18 cent fish, but the passion,care and pride they take in keeping a piece of nature as healthy as possible(some people have "house plants"!).I hope all goes well for you,and your fish.I hope the minnows make it the pond you mentioned.I hope you really enjoy your betta(they are great little fish).
A lot of members took time to share(I mentioned this can be rare) and offer info/opinions based on there experience.That's all!I recommend fishless cycling today,but I did have a 135g tank 28 years ago that used to eat 200 of the largest feeder goldfish available every week!
All this was really members just trying to help.I commend dalfed for be friending,and making it clearer than the rest of us ,that he was "just trying to help",and commend you(DVader) for recognising at least one of wasn't trying to beat you up.We're not trying to beat you up,I know this for how long I have been here and how members are(the best!).And +1 to Dale,you came the closest to how NAV.used to say things,that people valued even if it wasn't what they wanted to hear(a little more from you will help all of us).


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Those damn friendly Canadians


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