# Rot, Fungus, Bacterial Problem........Don't Know!



## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

*First........we are Beginners/first aquarium!
*
Now, about our tank: 
Marineland Eclipse 5 Hexagon, 5 gallon, Carbon Cartridge/Bio-Wheel Filtration, 1 male betta, 1 ghost shrimp, Moss Ball, 5 live plants, gravel, Betta Log, Small Swim-Thru décor. Every 10-day/20% w/c with Prime and sometimes 1/2 tsp Stress Coat Plus. Food: Omega One Buffet Betta Pellets and NLS Betta Pellets. Frozen Bloodworm as a once/twice a week treat. 

Towards the end of last month we notice some white stuff in the anal fin. Anal fin is blue. Done a 5- day treatment of Jungle Lifeguard All-In-One and it all cleared up. Immediately after treatment, done a 25% w/c, w/Prime. 24 hrs later, put in 3.38 oz of TSS. Everything was fine. Water parameters were fine. 

Last Thursday notice some white in dorsal and anal fins. Dorsal fin appeared to be twisted. Immediately started another 5-day treatment of Jungle Lifeguard............it worked perfect for us last time, so we figured. Now into our 4 day of treatment and white stuff still showing in fins. Dorsal fin looks half gone and looks a little twisted, but looks like he is swimming around fine. He hasn't lost his appetite at all thru the treatment. 

Will finish this treatment, do a 50% w/c, Prime and 24 hours later put in another 3.38oz of TSS. Have our carbon cartridge out, but bio-wheel is where most of our bb is at and bio-wheel was left in during treatment (advised to us). So, TSS will add the bb we will need. 

We really don't know what our betta, Stormy, has on 2 fins, but w/his appetite still great and swimming around nicely (seems), don't know what to do next. 

One thing we *DON'T* want to do is..........over medicate the aquarium/him! 

After this treatment, w/c, Prime and TSS, will keep doing 20% (or higher) w/c and adding Prime and HOPE his fins get better. 

Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

Sounds like fin rot to me, normally caused by poor water conditions, try upping the number of water changes you do to at least 50% a week, probably more, someone else will chime in surely

ps, pics would help greatly


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Here is what he looks like. Part of dorsal fin gone and condition of tail (?) fin. Photo just taken/downloaded.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Welcome back!Petsmart people can't get you or your fish well?They'll sell you another one.Maybe the genius on the other site will PM you a solution?
I believe in the long overdrawn discussion of how you were abusing you fish during your no test or waterchange fish in cycle that someone mentioned that fish put through this stress often have lowered immunity and shorter life spans.Oh yea it was me and all the other "know it alls"!
I'll say you stressed your fish and now it pays for your ignorance.Change more water more often like Marshall said.Unless the petco/petsmart people say you don't need too!
And skip the TSS everytime you medicate.You should have used it in the beginning,it is alittle late to avoid stressing this fish now!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Calling a Beginner "ignorant" isn't exactly a nice thing to do on a forum! 
We NEVER abused our betta and we used TSS when we first got the betta. We didn't know about TSS when we tried the "fish-in" thing with the minnows. Anyway, we done exactly what Tetra told us when doing a fish-in cycle using TSS........"don't change the water for 2 weeks, unless the parameters call for it". We didn't and our parameters were fine before and after the first treatment with Jungle Lifeguard. 

We used TSS after doing the Jungle Lifeguard treatment, b/c our we left our bio-wheel in and on. The treatment pretty much killed all of our bb and a parameters checked showed that. 

Now, PLEASE be nice to us..........we are Beginners!! BTW, not everyone can, or wants to, check with fish forums about everything dealing with fish and aquariums. I seen a lot of folks ask Petsmart and Petco staff different questions and fish. As for us, we'd rather come on a forum and ask.



coralbandit said:


> Welcome back!Petsmart people can't get you or your fish well?They'll sell you another one.Maybe the genius on the other site will PM you a solution?
> I believe in the long overdrawn discussion of how you were abusing you fish during your no test or waterchange fish in cycle that someone mentioned that fish put through this stress often have lowered immunity and shorter life spans.Oh yea it was me and all the other "know it alls"!
> I'll say you stressed your fish and now it pays for your ignorance.Change more water more often like Marshall said.Unless the petco/petsmart people say you don't need too!
> And skip the TSS everytime you medicate.You should have used it in the beginning,it is alittle late to avoid stressing this fish now!


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Glad to hear you now own a test kit(you didn't and didn't think it was necessary in all the other post).You fish is ill.If it is fin rot then it is due to poor water quality and nothing else CHANGE MORE WATER!
If you want me to be nice I'll say goodbye now and not post in your threads anymore.You were ignorant,belligerent,and outright defiant to advise you were given and left due to the "cruelty" of some of us members,now your fish suffers,it really seems sad and unfair to me!The jungle life guard meds are crap,but I don't expect you will hear what I have to say since it is not NICE.Try to make your fish comfortable while you can,change water keep temp around 80-82(you do have a heater right?)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130512114327AAPUo51
You should read this review.It is not as nice ,but offers insight that people who really care and want help should know.
Pay no mind to the worm reference(the reviewer is correct about camalanus) but more over read about who makes this "medicine".


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Wrong........*had* an API Master Kit, but took it back (didn't use at all). We were using API Test Strips, but when they ran out, bought Tetra Test Strips. But, after using the Tetra Strips, have decided to go back to using the API ones. Using test strips is entirely up to us. People don't have to like or agree with us using them, but it is our choice. 

As far as that Yahoo posting about Jungle Lifeguard.........everybody has their opinion about products. Jungle Lifeguard had great reviews online that I read, so we went with it. The first time used, it worked perfectly. Our aquarium did go thru a mini-cycle where we had to use a bottle of TSS, but that was fine. This time Jungle isn't working that well, so we won't use it again.

Actually, I think this illness/fin rot is due to ME! I don't think I vacuumed the gravel good enough or enough. Doing a water change doesn't have anything to do with getting rid of debris under the gravel. I was just using the vacuum to suck water out of the aquarium, not even touching the gravel. Only thing is, I can only vacuum 1/2 of the aquarium bottom due to 3 live plants w/roots under the gravel. I can't take those plants out and vacuum that gravel b/c of the nutrients in the gravel that the plants roots need. 

You don't have to say "goodbye". You are good at advice, but just b/c a person ask for advice/recommendations on any forum, sure doesn't mean they will be used. It really is up to the person asking. 

As far as calling US (wife and I) ignorant.......obviously NOBODY wants to be called that. Sure didn't score any points with my wife by calling her that, but we understand Forums and the way some folks can be. As far as being "belligerent and outright defiant"........that's just me. Some people it doesn't bother, like my wife, while others it bothers. I can be very sarcastic as well and that doesn't bother her either........she laughs like mad over it. But, she has a great "sense of humor" that some folks don't have. 

A lot of Beginners have problems with their fish, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was their fault. Fish can suffer from whatever for whatever reasons and a Beginner can't always be blamed for that. Of course that is my opinion. 

Again, Jungle Lifeguard had great reviews on different websites........that is why people have bought/used the stuff. The first time, it worked great, but not so this time.

We have a heater, but took it out. It did not have an adjustable thermostat on it and got the water way to warm. Absolutely no need for it when our thermometer in the aquarium is reading 78 to 80 all the time. Anyway, it's been in the upper 80's here. 



coralbandit said:


> Glad to hear you now own a test kit(you didn't and didn't think it was necessary in all the other post).You fish is ill.If it is fin rot then it is due to poor water quality and nothing else CHANGE MORE WATER!
> If you want me to be nice I'll say goodbye now and not post in your threads anymore.You were ignorant,belligerent,and outright defiant to advise you were given and left due to the "cruelty" of some of us members,now your fish suffers,it really seems sad and unfair to me!The jungle life guard meds are crap,but I don't expect you will hear what I have to say since it is not NICE.Try to make your fish comfortable while you can,change water keep temp around 80-82(you do have a heater right?)


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sorry to upset your wife and sorry your fish is ill.Changing more water is best advice.and yes I read many good reviews on the tetra/jungle product also.Sometimes people think things work when they don't in the long run(know what I mean?).


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## Arthur7 (Feb 22, 2013)

Be really nice to each other. Everyone means well.
But Healthy Fish are not a question of drugs.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Ok, *IF*, by chance, the water changes don't work.........don't notice any change in the looks of his dorsal fin and tail fin and decide to do another med treatment, what is suggested that we go with?

Here is what I've found that our LFS carries. 
All of them are brand, API:

BettaFix, Tetracycline, Fungus Cure, MelaFix, PimaFix, Triple Sulfa and E.M. Erythromycin

Now, if none of these are good, *please* recommend something, but I'd rather get the med from a local store, *NOT* online.

We plan on waiting a week or so, while doing water changes, to see if the fins get better.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It will probly help to reinstall the heater.Bettas like clean warm water.If it doesn't go over 84-86 you'll be fine.
Stay away from all the Fixes(melafix/pimafix/bettafix) the contain an oil that could drowned your guy especially if he is not well;
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/use-melafix-pimafix-betafix-labyrinth-organ-2363.html
I would give the API fungas cure a try over all others if he doesn't show improvement in a week or so.But till then change water everyday.2 gallons should be fine.Make sure it is close to tank tempature when you do.
Good Luck.
Kind of hoping someone else would reply and offer help.If you know how try to send a PM to Majerah1(Bev) she is one of our go to betta members(and one of out moderators).
You may also find some useful info in our betta forum;Bettas - Aquarium Forum
lots of betta specicfic threads there.You aren't the first with fin rot.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

*THANKS* for the recommendation! There are so many different meds out there and some state they are an "all-in-one" (treat everything) type product, while others narrow the problem down more. To a Beginner, it can be sort of "mind-boggling"! I had one person tell me to use the API Stress Coat Plus b/c it has some medication in it for fin disease, that Prime doesn't. We have both (Prime and Stress Coat Plus), but we've been using Prime when doing a water change. We used Stress Coat Plus a couple of times when our betta looked stressed..........boy did the stuff mellow him out. At that time, we had a large female ghost shrimp that had chased him around when I'd feed him. Took that shrimp out..........as per my wife's demand. 

As far as the heater goes, I've read that the highest heat for a betta would be
80 to 82 degrees. As of right this minute (I just checked) the thermometer in the aquarium is on 82 degrees and the temp in our apartment is 80 degrees. Right now outside, it is 88 degrees. I have two windows in our living room open and the door in our dining room going to our patio open. The aquarium is setting about 8 ft from that open door. Afraid if I put the heater back in, with no way to adjust the heat, the water will get too hot. 

The water I have is in 1 gallon plastic milk containers........that are very, very cleaned out. They are by the aquarium, so I think they are close to the same temp as the aquarium water is. BTW, how does a person get tap water, close to the same temp as the water in the aquarium?? I've always wondered about that. 



coralbandit said:


> It will probly help to reinstall the heater.Bettas like clean warm water.If it doesn't go over 84-86 you'll be fine.
> Stay away from all the Fixes(melafix/pimafix/bettafix) the contain an oil that could drowned your guy especially if he is not well;
> http://www.aquariumforum.com/f5/use-melafix-pimafix-betafix-labyrinth-organ-2363.html
> I would give the API fungas cure a try over all others if he doesn't show improvement in a week or so.But till then change water everyday.2 gallons should be fine.Make sure it is close to tank tempature when you do.
> ...


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## chenowethpm (Jan 8, 2014)

DVader said:


> BTW, how does a person get tap water, close to the same temp as the water in the aquarium?? I've always wondered about that.


Run the tap while holding a thermometer under it and adjust hot and cold till it's close to the temp.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Good deal!I think stress coat has aloe vera,but not certain.
82 should be ok.
Most people actaully use a thermometer like in the tank to adjust their replacement water.
Others "crazy like me" prep their water in 30-50 gallon barrels with heaters,airpumps,powerheads and thermometers so we know our replacement water is always the same as the tank.
If he doesn't heal some or look better in a week then we need to consider a real disease.For now we don't need to go down that road.Fin rot is pretty common for bettas,so we'll just hope this works out.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Your not "crazy", you're just *BIG* into fish/aquariums! The way you do water, you *ARE* definitely an Aquarist!! 
We will see about getting another thermometer to use for the tap water. Anyway, that way I can see how warm the water is in the plastic milk containers. 
So, do you suggest using the Stress Coat with the water changes, instead of the Prime, or use both......but not at the same time? It does contain aloe vera (says on the label). I put in 1/2 tsp of it (read that that is how much goes into a 5 gallon aquarium. 



coralbandit said:


> Good deal!I think stress coat has aloe vera,but not certain.
> 82 should be ok.
> Most people actaully use a thermometer like in the tank to adjust their replacement water.
> Others "crazy like me" prep their water in 30-50 gallon barrels with heaters,airpumps,powerheads and thermometers so we know our replacement water is always the same as the tank.
> If he doesn't heal some or look better in a week then we need to consider a real disease.For now we don't need to go down that road.Fin rot is pretty common for bettas,so we'll just hope this works out.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Prime is a great product that most here use.That being said and just reading the link provided by API to a study by the University of Georgia on the effectiness of Stress Coat ,I would just use the stress coat during this healing time.
If you go to this link and hit the first "blue here" you can read the brief evaluation by UOG.
Welcome to API Fishcare: STRESS COAT®
BUT only use enough for the water replaced!Probly around 1/4 teaspoon for 2 gallons.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

I will switch from Prime to Stress Coat Plus for awhile. 
From my research online, this is the measurement that I found:
Normal dosage is 1/8 tsp per gallon of water
Double that dose to 1/4 per gallon for healing purposes. 

Water coming from tap and going into tank would be *fresh* water. Keeping the water in the 1 gallon plastic milk containers would *not* be fresh water. But, it is much easier storing water in those 1 gallon containers.
What do you think?



coralbandit said:


> Prime is a great product that most here use.That being said and just reading the link provided by API to a study by the University of Georgia on the effectiness of Stress Coat ,I would just use the stress coat during this healing time.
> If you go to this link and hit the first "blue here" you can read the brief evaluation by UOG.
> Welcome to API Fishcare: STRESS COAT®
> BUT only use enough for the water replaced!Probly around 1/4 teaspoon for 2 gallons.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

It is still fresh water even if you store it in jugs.Leaving the cap off of the jug couldn't hurt any?
I hadn't even read on proper dosing ,but if it allows for 'higher" amounts for healing purpose by all means go for it.Just watch your guy while you are doing this to mske sure he is ok with it.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

A couple of other things I'm wondering about "coralbandit"........

What do you think of Seachem Paraguard for treatment. I would recommended, but I want your opinion.

Also, what about a bubble wand? It was also recommended. Only problem is the length of one. Our aquarium is a hexagon w/each side measuring 6 1/4 inches. The shortest wand I could fine was 8 1/2 inches (w/a suction cup at each end). Also found a bubble ring, but not sure if our bottom would have enough room for it. It secures under the gravel. Also wonder if our betta would swim thru it since the ring would be producing a circle of bubbles, unlike a wand. A bubble wand, or ring, wouldn't have anything to do with the water current, would it. This is just bubbles going straight up to the top, right? I had to partially plug two outlets, where the bio-wheel is, due to the faster current they were making. Our betta was having a hard time swimming in that current, let alone catching a pellet in it. Our tank is completely covered with a light fixture and the filtration system. 

I know that a bubble wand could help, but with the size of them, and lack of bottom space, don't know if we could even have one. What do you think?


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

you should be able to find soft bubbler tubes that you can just cut to fit and cap the end, you can even do this with the rigid ones, an exacto or scalpel will do this cleanly.

as for current, whether you get a wand or just an airstone, pick up an inline valve at the same time and you can just turn it down if its too much flow, I like to have mine set really low, maybe 1 or 2 bubbles come up per second, full blast just makes a mess of the lid with all the splashing anyway.


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## sharkettelaw (Aug 30, 2011)

"got nothing to do with the debris under the gravel" thats EXACTLY what a gravel vacuum is for. To get that debris out, genius. That white stuff is called fungus which is caused by insipid water conditions. The water quality has to be REALLY bad for fungus..lack of water changes = lack of maintenance. If you did weekly water changes you wouldnt have the problem..and fungus is bacterial. Supposed to treat it with medication designed for it...methylene blue is one of them. Clean your water BEFORE treatment.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

The white stuff on our beta's fin isn't fuzzy! 

As far as telling us about w/c's, etc., we've been doing that on every 7 to 10 day time period with excellent parameter checks. 

On 4/8, I done a 50% w/c w/Prime. On 4/18, done a 20% w/c w/Prime. On 4/24, done a 35% w/c w/Prime. It was the next day we noticed the white on his fins and started the Jungle Lifeguard Treatment that took 6 days........you don't do any w/c's during those days. Today was the end of the treatment and I put the carbon cartridge back in and vacuumed some of the gravel and done a w/c of 40% plus adding some Stress Coat Plus. 

So, don't tell us we are not doing water changes!! 

Another thing, a person can't get all of the debris from under the gravel w/the plastic vacuum! We have live plants in the gravel that we can't pull up and vacuum in those areas. 

And BTW, *thanks* for calling me a genius........very nice compliment. Don't think I've ever been called that before and I'm in my mid 60's.

[/U][/U]


sharkettelaw said:


> "got nothing to do with the debris under the gravel" thats EXACTLY what a gravel vacuum is for. To get that debris out, genius. That white stuff is called fungus which is caused by insipid water conditions. The water quality has to be REALLY bad for fungus..lack of water changes = lack of maintenance. If you did weekly water changes you wouldnt have the problem..and fungus is bacterial. Supposed to treat it with medication designed for it...methylene blue is one of them. Clean your water BEFORE treatment.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

To let you know, we can't hook anything up to our filter system......it's completely enclosed in plastic. We are going to check out a small bubble wand and a bubble ring to see if either would fit. Not much space in a 5 gallon tank for stuff like that. Even our Floating Betta Log looks awfully big in it and the back half of the tank has 5 live plants in it. 



Marshall said:


> you should be able to find soft bubbler tubes that you can just cut to fit and cap the end, you can even do this with the rigid ones, an exacto or scalpel will do this cleanly.
> 
> as for current, whether you get a wand or just an airstone, pick up an inline valve at the same time and you can just turn it down if its too much flow, I like to have mine set really low, maybe 1 or 2 bubbles come up per second, full blast just makes a mess of the lid with all the splashing anyway.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Hello, sorry I am late to this discussion. First off with fin rot, really clean warm water is all that is needed. You should have his temp a balmy 84 to 86 for the treatment. No meds are necessary, unless you feel like using aquarium salt. 

You can find heaters that are adjustable, they just cost a little more. 

As for the gravel vacuuming, Hrm. I never vac mine ( ive sand) And everyone is fine. For the plants and its just the one fish, yes? Then it is not necessary. As long as you keep the water changes up and are cycled he should thrive.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

^^^^This is who to listen too!^^^^^
I knew you'd show up eventually Bev!


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Also first off, Please be civil in here. No more name calling please  people do not always know it all and name calling is degrading and makes you seem childish. 

As for the bubbles, You can indeed set something up but I suggest a gang valve to control the flow of air. That way you can have some and not so much it bothers the fella with swimming. Any more recent pics of the little guy?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

I sure am wondering why, if it is the case, so many here seem to think a 5 gallon hexagon is a big tank. Believe me, it's not.......I'm looking at it right now! We are going to look into the bubble wand and bubble circle things, but not into hooking up valves and the such. We just aren't that much into aquariums. Sorry, but that's the way it is. 

Actually, there is no "treatment" going on right now. That Jungle treatment ended two days ago. Tonight or tomorrow AM will check our water parameters to see if we need to dump a 3.38oz bottle of TSS in. Most likely we will have to. After that, all that will be done is w/c's and adding Stress Coat Plus for the next week or so. After that amount of time, should we see some healing/growing of the fins? If, not, when should we try the next medication or should we just stick with water changes and Stress Coat Plus?? If a medication is done again, it will be API Fungus Cure (recommended to us).

The thermometer in the tank right now says 80 degrees. Is that warm enough or should the Aqueon 10w Mini Heater go back in? Next week our outside temp will be in the upper 80's and, with the patio door open and two front windows open, that mini heater could raise the water temp too much. But, if we need warmer water for healing him, will definitely put the heater back in. When I took it out a month or so ago, the thermometer inside the tank was reading almost 86 degrees.........which is some 6 degrees above what I read should be. 

BTW, no more pics.....he still looks the same. Anyway, that photo was only taken 3 days ago.

As basically Beginners, all wife and I can go by is what you folks tell us, which can be somewhat different between members, and what we read on other websites. I've come to figure out that asking employee's at PetsMart and Petco, doesn't really help as much as I wished it would.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

No one here thinks 5 gallons is big, it's not.

To add a bubbler of any kind, you need the bubbler (be it wand or circle) under the gravel, a pump for the actual air which goes outside the tank, then some air line tubing from one to the other (with a valve for flow). The only thing added to the tank is the bubbler which is hidden and a small air line, I don't see what is taking up so much space. 

You want to add a bubbler, that's the way you do it, whether you are 'in' to aquariums or not.

you don't need to keep pumping chemicals into the tank, just change water (with conditioner) everyday or every other day for a week and you should see an improvement, no need to keep medicating for now. With that many water changes, you shouldn't need any TSS either, just clean water.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

The type of bubbler we are going to look at has a power cord and plugs into an outlet. The bubbler is submergible. Nothing outside the tank is necessary except the power cord going from the bubbler to the outlet. 

I think I've already said this, but will again: The first time we used Jungle Lifeguard, we HAD to put SafeStart in due to what our water parameters checks were saying after the treatment of the Jungle stuff (Nitrite between .5 and 1, Ammonia was at 3). That meant a lot of our bb was killed with the Jungle treatment. Now, if the water tests the same way tomorrow, that would mean a lot (or most) of our bb was killed again. We have a bottle of TSS ready just in case the numbers say we need the bb again. 

We can only HOPE the w/c's and Stress Coat Plus will help. Time will tell.



Marshall said:


> No one here thinks 5 gallons is big, it's not.
> 
> To add a bubbler of any kind, you need the bubbler (be it wand or circle) under the gravel, a pump for the actual air which goes outside the tank, then some air line tubing from one to the other (with a valve for flow). The only thing added to the tank is the bubbler which is hidden and a small air line, I don't see what is taking up so much space.
> 
> ...


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Five gallons is not large and I really did not see anyone saying so. As for the bubbler, it is up to you. Not necessary as bettas are anabantids breathing air so the dissolved oxygen count matters not. 

Yes place the heater back in. You need to get his temp up if you wish to see regrowth ( FWIW I have bred bettas in 90F waters and they all did just fine) 84 is the ideal temp for them, being the best all around temp year round, day in and day out.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> That meant a lot of our bb was killed with the Jungle treatment. Now, if the water tests the same way tomorrow, that would mean a lot (or most) of our bb was killed again. We have a bottle of TSS ready just in case the numbers say we need the bb again.
> 
> We can only HOPE the w/c's and Stress Coat Plus will help. Time will tell.


OK here's what everyone is tryingto say;Don't use the TSS no matter what your test says.As a matter of fact(prepare to be shocked!) don't even test your water for the next week.JUST CHANGE 2 GALLONS EVERY DAY!No test,no TSS just change water no matter what.You will not be able to build up any ammonia or nitrites if you change everyday.If you have any at this moment they will be cut in half everyday you change water.You don't need to change water everyday forever and ever ,just give it a week.If you see good results or your betta doesn't get worse maybe another couple days wouldn't hurt.By then the real therapy of clean water should have worked.After a week or so you can test and if you need or feel you would like to then you can add the TSS,and then start your weekly 2 gallon water change schedule.Regardless of what the test said you do need to change more water.Simply 2 gallons a week(no guessing 20% or 30% due to test reading).Most here do 50% or more weekly and many here have multiple tanks(hundreds of gallons).
If you add the TSS now then you will not be able to change water (as per tetras instructions) and this most of us feel will be worse then the lack of beneficial bacteria.You will do the job of beneficial bacteria for the next week or so.By adding/changing 2 gallons everyday YOU will remove the nutrients.
Have faith that we want your fish and fish keeping to be succesful.Very light feedings also.All food must be eaten in less than 2 minutes.If food hits the bottom and is not eaten right away it should be vacced out and feedings in future should be less.Even if fish eats all food it still turns into waste,so light feedings will help with water quality.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Also to add to what he said, make sure to add prime to your water before adding to tank.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

sharkettelaw said:


> "got nothing to do with the debris under the gravel" thats EXACTLY what a gravel vacuum is for. To get that debris out, genius. That white stuff is called fungus which is caused by insipid water conditions. The water quality has to be REALLY bad for fungus..lack of water changes = lack of maintenance. If you did weekly water changes you wouldnt have the problem..and fungus is bacterial. Supposed to treat it with medication designed for it...methylene blue is one of them. Clean your water BEFORE treatment.


Back off shark. Also methylene blue isn't the best option for labyrinth fish as the oils will mess with the ability to take in air.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

susankat said:


> Also to add to what he said, make sure to add prime to your water before adding to tank.


He has both prime and API stress coat so we decided on stress coat for the treatment time.Seemed like it has a proven track record with healing fins so it was worth a try during the 1 week of heavy water changes.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

Is this Act II or Act III?

[Aquarist walks on stage]

Aquarist: To be nice or not to be nice - that is the question... which conflicts with my understanding of those before me.

[Aquarist looks into aquarium, then looks at the stars]

Aquarist: How about... [long pause] Focus on the issue, not the person.

[Aquarist flips through Baensch Atlas and the handbook of fish diseases]

Aquarist: Finrot - usually caused by bad water conditions. {short pause as he watches clown loach play dead]
Solution - usually cleared up by more frequent water changes and gravel vacuuming.

[Aquarist reaches into aquarium stand and pulls out a long snake like looking device]

Aquarist: [clears throat] I would vacuum the gravel and change 50% of the water everyday for a week. After that, I would do more water changes/gravel vacuuming than I was doing before the fish got sick. Whatever was done before was not enough, so do more. And yes, add your preferred water conditioner with each water change.

[Aquarist puts snake like thing back under aquarium. He walks off the stage shaking his head]

Aquarist: Not sure if I said anything different than the previous speakers - but perhaps the message gets through at last.

[Curtain closes. Audience waits to see if any other actors will take the stage]


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for reminding me of this. That is, how they breath in two different ways.....while in the water thru their gills AND coming to the top to suck up some actual air. I suppose some of the other members now remember this or now know this.

As far as the heater goes, we live in northeastern Florida and everyone knows just how "tropical" this State can be/is. The heater we have does not have an adjustable thermostat on it and, at the time it was taken out of the aquarium, the water temp was almost 86 degrees. Right this minute our aquarium is almost 80 degrees at 8:45PM. 
This is part of the article I just read: 
"If you are talking ideal temperature you want to keep it between 76 and 82 degrees." (from.....Betta Care Made Easy

Now, if getting the water temperature up to 84/86 is going to help him heal his fins better, I will definitely put the 10w mini heater back in. 
The heater is sitting on the table by the aquarium, but won't put it in until I hear from you. 


majerah1 said:


> Five gallons is not large and I really did not see anyone saying so. As for the bubbler, it is up to you. Not necessary as bettas are anabantids breathing air so the dissolved oxygen count matters not.
> 
> Yes place the heater back in. You need to get his temp up if you wish to see regrowth ( FWIW I have bred bettas in 90F waters and they all did just fine) 84 is the ideal temp for them, being the best all around temp year round, day in and day out.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

First, we (wife/I) can tell that he likes the 40% w/c I done today! 
Second, we tested the water, w/test strips (sorry, but that's what we use/prefer) and here are the readings:
Nitrate= 0
Nitrite= 0
Ammonia= between 0 and .5
pH= 7.5

So, it appears that we still have bb in the filter system (at least some). After doing the last Jungle treatment, end of last month, our Ammonia and Nitrite went into the "uh oh" zone. That's why we dumped the TSS in and wound up with readings of zero on both Ammonia and Nitrite. 

Ok, "coralbandit", one thing I don't want to do is take away my tank nutrients and kill my live plants, however we will do w/c's within a week.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

It will indeed help him heal. 

If you speak to breeders in Singapore ( those who catch them from the wild) they will explain the natural temp is only about 78 in the coldest parts of the year. They keep theirs from 82 to 86 degrees. All mine ( Save the wilds) are at 84 constantly. They are more active and less likely to get diseased.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Ok, will put the heater back in, BUT will definitely monitor the thermometer inside the tank. If the water get too warm, will just unplug, but leave the heater in (for awhile anyway).



majerah1 said:


> It will indeed help him heal.
> 
> If you speak to breeders in Singapore ( those who catch them from the wild) they will explain the natural temp is only about 78 in the coldest parts of the year. They keep theirs from 82 to 86 degrees. All mine ( Save the wilds) are at 84 constantly. They are more active and less likely to get diseased.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

DVader said:


> one thing I don't want to do is take away my tank nutrients and kill my live plants, however we will do w/c's within a week.


don't worry about the plants, they will get all the nutrients they need from the tap water


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

That is what I was told, but thanks for replying.

As for the recommendation of a bubbler, I was told that it's not necessary b/c a beta breathes two ways.

Am still wondering about the aquarium salt? Read that it can harm/kill live plants. Is this true? We have 5 live plants in the tank.......no artificial ones anymore. 



Marshall said:


> don't worry about the plants, they will get all the nutrients they need from the tap water


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Put the heater back in yesterday. The water temp right now is 84 degrees and he seems to be happy that the water is warmer. However, when I do the water change today, I will have to take it out of the tap and check the temperature of that water with the thermometer we bought last night. We have stored water, but just checked the temp of that and it was 74 degrees......too cold to put in (10 degrees lower than the tank water is). 

Now, next week when our outside temp will be close to 90, I will have to really monitor the tank water temp since the heater is back in it now. Just don't want that water to heat up due to the outside temperature being so warm. If the tank water does start to go above 86, will unplug the heater. I want our beta to be comfortable during his illness, but not cook! 

Just wanted to say *"THANKS"* to you for having me put the heater back in.



majerah1 said:


> Hello, sorry I am late to this discussion. First off with fin rot, really clean warm water is all that is needed. You should have his temp a balmy 84 to 86 for the treatment. No meds are necessary, unless you feel like using aquarium salt.
> 
> You can find heaters that are adjustable, they just cost a little more.
> 
> As for the gravel vacuuming, Hrm. I never vac mine ( ive sand) And everyone is fine. For the plants and its just the one fish, yes? Then it is not necessary. As long as you keep the water changes up and are cycled he should thrive.


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## chenowethpm (Jan 8, 2014)

Most aquarium heaters have an internal thermostat which will shut off the heater when the "set" temp is reached. Some you can adjust, some are set to one specific temp. A good adjustable heater is the best and well worth the investment. How do I know, I have had a cheap one break and stay on before, temp soared up to 90 before I caught it. What I'm trying to get at is that if the ambient temp raises the tank temp past the heater setting, the heater should shut off.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> We have stored water, but just checked the temp of that and it was 74 degrees......too cold to put in (10 degrees lower than the tank water is).
> 
> .


Just a thought and I have never done this but,do you have a microwave?
Changing the water every day for 7 days is VERY IMPORTANT.We need to make sure this happens.Try warming it up in MC for like 15 seconds?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

I used the new aquarium thermometer to check the water temperature coming out of the tap, but seems like I had to run quite a bit of water, and keep adjusting the tap to get the temperature up to 84 degrees. The water wasted going down the drain, during adjusting it, will cost us. We pay for water here. Today, and for the next week, our daytime temp will be in the upper 80's, so the inside of our apartment, with the door/windows open, will be warm enough to warm the container water to 80 degrees (I hope). 

BTW, just wondering, after the week/7 days of water changes, what should we do next to heal his fins? Appears the "rot" has stopped, but regrowth isn't happening right now. Wonder how long we should wait before doing another med treatment OR.........just wait and do regular day water changes and Stress Coat Plus?

We also got a Mixed Netrite Snail yesterday. We needed something to clean up some, not much, algae that is in the tank. We thought he was dead last night, took him out and put in plastic container to take back to LFS, but, in the middle of the night, he was on the side of the plastic container and I could see his feelers. So, put him back in the tank and he started moving around. Weird looking creature. 



coralbandit said:


> Just a thought and I have never done this but,do you have a microwave?
> Changing the water every day for 7 days is VERY IMPORTANT.We need to make sure this happens.Try warming it up in MC for like 15 seconds?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

If the rot stopped there is no need for medication. Warm clean water will heal him and you should be seeing some clear regrowth within a few days.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

*UPDATE*

Last Thursday (May 1st), started doing 40% water changes every-other day and adding Stress Coat Plus. During that time period, also vacuumed the gravel twice. Today will be our last "every-other day" water change. We will now do a water change every 3rd day for a week. After that, regular once-a-week water changes, but will continue using the Stress Coat Plus for healing/regrowth. His water temp is 84 w/the 10W Mini Heater plugged in (not adjustable). Was told the warmer water temp will help with healing, but if the water temp goes above 84, b/c of high outside temp, will unplug 'til nighttime. We want a healing/healthy beta, not a COOKED one!

Appears the fin rot has stopped.......no white spots showing. At least half of his dorsal fin is gone and some little holes in his anal fin, but he doesn't seem to have trouble swimming. And, still has his appetite! 

Think we will take out the Floating Betta Log for awhile. He isn't sleeping in it like he use to. Will check his water parameters tonight. Have a bottle of TSS ready to go in if need be. 

Today he's not real happy with us b/c it's his "fasting" day. 

Any other recommendations?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

*ANOTHER UPDATE

*Now doing a 20 to 40 percent w/c every 3 days or so for a week or so. Have changed back to using Prime from using Stress Coat Plus. Tested his water parameters this past Sunday and ammonia was slightly high (between 0 and 0.5). Have a 3.38 oz. bottle of TSS ready to put in shortly (but NOT the same day I do a w/c). Some extra bb won't hurt anything and will bring that ammonia level completely down to 0. 

Turn the heater on sometimes at night, but turn it off in the morning. It's just too warm outside (here in northeastern Florida) to have it on during the day. 

Don't know when his fins will grow back, but appears the bacteria is gone. Won't do another med treatment..........just the w/c's, Prime and vacuum the gravel. 

We are going to get another Mixed Nerite Snail since two are recommended for a 5 gallon tank. Have one Ghost Shrimp, but might get one more.


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## AuntyFe (Mar 25, 2014)

DVader said:


> I don't think I vacuumed the gravel good enough or enough. Doing a water change doesn't have anything to do with getting rid of debris under the gravel.


I likewise realized the importance of vacuuming the gravel after I had problems, in my case with fungus.
I had set up my tank (goldfish only) with lots of gravel, which trapped lots of gunk (the technical term is "mulm"!). Over several weeks, I gradually reduced the amount of gravel, so that I can siphon through it all in a 30% water change. I've got some plants in pots and on bogwood, so I can easily remove them.

I'm not sure how people with planted tanks deal with the cleaning out the substrate.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

I won't continue vacuuming the gravel every time I do a water change, but for now it appears to help. Generally I will do the vacuuming every-other time I do a water change.

Certain plants, like the Narrow Leaf Java Fern don't get planted under the gravel.....they are attached to driftwood or something else in the tank. We cut off the hard plastic base of two artificial plants and used two small rubber bands to attach the base/roots of each Java Fern to those bases. Our other three live plants are Anubius Congensis and their roots do go under the gravel. I can take out the two Fern's, but can not vacuum the gravel where the Anubius Congensis plants are........can't pull them out of the gravel. So, I can only vacuum the gravel in 1/2 of the tank, b/c the other half of the tank is where the "roots under the gravel" plants are. 
In-other-words, gravel vacuuming can NOT be done where live plants have their roots under the gravel. 



AuntyFe said:


> I likewise realized the importance of vacuuming the gravel after I had problems, in my case with fungus.
> I had set up my tank (goldfish only) with lots of gravel, which trapped lots of gunk (the technical term is "mulm"!). Over several weeks, I gradually reduced the amount of gravel, so that I can siphon through it all in a 30% water change. I've got some plants in pots and on bogwood, so I can easily remove them.
> 
> I'm not sure how people with planted tanks deal with the cleaning out the substrate.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

DVader said:


> I won't continue vacuuming the gravel every time I do a water change, but for now it appears to help. Generally I will do the vacuuming every-other time I do a water change.
> 
> Certain plants, like the Narrow Leaf Java Fern don't get planted under the gravel.....they are attached to driftwood or something else in the tank. We cut off the hard plastic base of two artificial plants and used two small rubber bands to attach the base/roots of each Java Fern to those bases. Our other three live plants are Anubius Congensis and their roots do go under the gravel. I can take out the two Fern's, but can not vacuum the gravel where the Anubius Congensis plants are........can't pull them out of the gravel. So, I can only vacuum the gravel in 1/2 of the tank, b/c the other half of the tank is where the "roots under the gravel" plants are.
> In-other-words, gravel vacuuming can NOT be done where live plants have their roots under the gravel.


what's the harm in vacuuming the gravel every time? it doesn't have to be very intensive with only 1 fish.

and I hate to say it but anubias do best when not planted in the substrate (at least not deep) either, you can attach them to hard surfaces much the same as java ferns.

ps, for most planted tanks, we don't do a deep cleaning of the substrate as the mulm will help the plants, just a light vac. I and many other will use sand in which the waste doesn't settle into as easily anyways, the larger gravel collects waste and other solids like nobody's business, hence the need to vac more often.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well........it can be a little hard (vacuuming gravel), especially when the clear plastic suction tube sometimes fills up with gravel and has to be raised above the water in order to empty. When that happens, the gravel falling out of the tube can flow everywhere. Plus, if a person has any small invertebrates, got look out that they don't get sucked up into the suction tube into the water changing container and end up being dumped down the sink drain. 

Generally a "Newbie", like we were/are, will read the directions on package before getting involved with a Forum. The TOPFIN package, the Anubias came in states, "Place in aquarium, covering roots with gravel". BUT, have looked at some websites that say that it too can be fastened to driftwood or whatever on top of the gravel. Problem is, it sure isn't easy fastening any small or medium plant to something. I had a heck of a time trying to fasten the Java Ferns, with two small rubber bands, to those artificial plant plastic bases.......but it finally worked! Another thing, there isn't much room to put driftwood or whatever, for fastening plants to, in a 5 gallon tank! 

As far as using sand goes, when a "Beginner/Newbie" goes to their LFS to get their first aquarium, like we did, the employee will tell them how much gravel to buy pending on the size of the tank they are buying. The buying of sand was never mentioned and, like already stated, a lot of "Beginners/Newbie's" aren't a part of any fish forum when they first go to LFS to buy an aquarium.......we weren't. So, have to listen to what the LFS employees tell you. Surely NOT always the best advice/recommendations, but at the time, the ONLY a "Beginner/Newbie" has to depend on. 



Marshall said:


> what's the harm in vacuuming the gravel every time? it doesn't have to be very intensive with only 1 fish.
> 
> and I hate to say it but anubias do best when not planted in the substrate (at least not deep) either, you can attach them to hard surfaces much the same as java ferns.
> 
> ps, for most planted tanks, we don't do a deep cleaning of the substrate as the mulm will help the plants, just a light vac. I and many other will use sand in which the waste doesn't settle into as easily anyways, the larger gravel collects waste and other solids like nobody's business, hence the need to vac more often.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

Most LFS will place all the substrate together on the same shelf, sand and gravel will be right next to each other so it all comes down to preference, there's nothing wrong with gravel.

When vacuuming, keep the tube at an angle and swirl it around in the gravel, that will free up the dirt and keep the gravel from going up the tube. Also keep your other hand on the hose, if you want to slow down the flow and let the gravel out, just pinch/bend the hose, that will keep the siphon going and avoid the mess.

I have cherry shrimp in my 29g and they'll stay out of the way.

A tip for fastening plants to decor, a small dab of superglue (the gel kind work best) will work very well without too much fuss, just remove the decor from the tank and glue the plant rhizome to it, easy


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## Donna120 (Dec 7, 2013)

sharkettelaw said:


> "got nothing to do with the debris under the gravel" that'ss EXACTLY what a gravel vacuum is for. To get that debris out, genius. That white stuff is called fungus which is caused by insipid water conditions. The water quality has to be REALLY bad for fungus..lack of water changes = lack of maintenance. If you did weekly water changes you wouldnt have the problem..and fungus is bacterial. Supposed to treat it with medication designed for it...methylene blue is one of them. Clean your water BEFORE treatment.


I know I am new at this, but even I know that poor water quality isn't the only thing that can cause fungus. Fungal spores can be going in every tank and can quickly colonize and create problems for stressed fish!


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