# Starting Over. Guidance please?



## NicoleRaee (Sep 14, 2011)

Hi, My name is Nicole and I'm new to this forum. I don't have a lot of fish care experience. I decided to join when I just recently started having problems with my tank. 

I have a ten gallon tank. I set it up the 27th of July. Let it cycle for 24 hours before having the water tested at my LFS. Everything came back perfect for water conditions. That night my boyfriend purchased 6 tiger barbs. We followed the general rules for acclimating the fish to the tank before putting them in. They schooled and everything seemed to be fine. A couple fought at first but calmed down. I waited 2 weeks and did a 10-15% water change. Treating the water in a bucket before putting it in to the tank using the same amount of water conditioner and ammonia detoxifier as before. The fish seemed to be fine and everything went well. 

I then went out of town for a couple weeks and my boyfriend took care of them. After a few days he came home to one dead in the tank. We had been a little worried about him because he wouldn't eat and always seemed kinda closed off from the group because he didn't school with the others or seem as active. I asked my boyfriend if the others seemed okay, and he said they were all fine. Just that one was acting weird. I came home after being gone almost 2 weeks. Did a 20% water change. The other 5 barbs were acting great. All eating all doing well. 

Another 2 weeks pass. I do a 40-45% water change because I notice its getting a little more cloudy. I dont have a gravel vacuum because the girl at the pet store told me it wasn't necessary. Instead I remove about half the gravel, rinse the new gravel, and replace the old. I treat the water same as I have always done before. That is on Thursday. I leave Saturday to go out of town. Come back sunday night and notice the fish are suffering from fin rot. I notice the one with the worst fin rot also has what I'm sure was "cloud eye". Its late on a sunday night so theres not much I can do. First thing monday morning I take a water sample to my LFS. The ammonia is very high and the Ph is low. So I buy Ph Increase. Melafix for the cloudy eye and fin rot. And use my ammonia detoxifier I already have. I also put in a new filter, the water temp is set on 79. I come home to another fish now died. I remove him. Add 5ml of ph increase as directions say. Add a little over 5ml of ammonia detoxifier. and Add 5ml of the melafix. The fish at this point are refusing to eat, but the fins after just a little while are noticeably better. I think maybe I've caught it in time to fix it. Then the next day I wake up to all 4 of my remaining tiger barbs going crazy. Swimming upside down. Floating. All clearly on the edge of death. By 3pm yesterday they had all died. 

I'm still shocked at how fast this happened and why. I'm assuming the water is the reason, but am not sure if I had been doing my water changes wrong all along or just this last water change I did. I'd like to restart my tank and try again with new fish, but I'm scared I will do the same to them. It's hard to find much direction on the internet because every person tells you something different. Can anyone give me guidance on what may have gone wrong and what to do differently this time? Thanks.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

Oh, wow... I'm so sorry that happened, but the good news is that there are several simple things you can do (and avoid doing!) to keep this from happening again.

First of all, yes, the water conditions caused the fish illnesses. Some fish do happen to have things like parasites and bacterial infections, but even these are usually caused by poor water conditions. Luckily, once you get things stable, you shouldn't lose that many fish again!

1. You should never add that many fish at once, especially in a cycling tank. Have you read about the nitrogen cycle? I suggest you read as much as you can about it, because it will explain a lot. Basically, your tank needs time for beneficial bacteria to build up. This bacteria eats the ammonia produced by the fish and turns it into nitrite. This is as harmful as ammonia, but fortunately there is another kind of bacteria that eats the nitrite and turns it into much-less-harmful nitrate. To overload the tank with six fish at once caused the ammonia to spike before any bacteria could build up. You did a good job on the water changes, but you have to monitor the conditions carefully and only change the water when ammonia and nitrites build up to dangerous levels (more on testing later). 

2. That cloudiness was probably a bacterial bloom, and was a sign that your tank was beginning to cycle properly. You were right to do a water change, but you absolutely need a gravel vacuum. The bacteria take hold on surfaces like gravel and filter media, and taking out all of that gravel at once decimated your bacterial colonies... With a gravel vacuum, you can suck out any waste that might be on the surface while still leaving the bacteria deep within the gravel. 

3. BUY YOUR OWN TEST KITS. They arent' that expensive, and will save you money in the long run because you won't have to keep using up gas to travel to the pet store. With your own test kits, you'll be able to monitor the levels on a daily basis. Test kits you should get are pH, ammonia, and nitrate/nitrite. Go ahead and get the strips for nitrate/nitrite if you don't want to mess with the liquid, but DO get the liquid ammonia and pH tests. It's well worth it. 

4. YOU SHOULD NEVER USE ANY PH-ALTERING CHEMICALS EXCEPT FOR NEUTRALIZING/BUFFERING AGENTS! That is one of the worst things you could ever do to a tank. The thing about pH is that most common fish can adapt to it. As long as it's not off the charts, your fish can adapt as long as you drip acclimate them. The problem with pH is when it fluctuates a lot. Rapid fluctuations in pH kill fish more than the "wrong" pH, so using chemicals to alter it will kill fish very easily. I can explain more about pH and buffering if you want me to, or you can find many informative articles on the subject. 

5. You didn't specify what part of the filter you changed. I assume that you meant the carbon filter pad, and in that case that's just fine. But you should never replace the sponge/floss pad. Bacteria lives there, and again, you don't want to disrupt them. 

6. A subject I just have to touch on, being a former PetsMart employee: Be careful of the advice you get from people in retail fish stores. Many of them are only there because it was an available job. As a general rule with ANY person who gives you advice (myself included!), cross-check their advice with other sources. If you're in doubt, ask the person if they have fish themselves, and ask how long they've kept fish. If someone says "Yeah, my mom has a tank," or "Yeah, I just got a goldfish," then odds are the person isn't an expert. Don't think you should mistrust what pet store employees say; just take what they say with a grain of salt. 

I hope that clears up some things for you. Like I said, you can find a whole lot of info on cycling, but I and my fellow forum-members will be glad to answer any more questions you may have. I know it seems frustrating, but don't give up! Keeping fish is a learning experience, and even when you get the basics you will still learn more every day. Welcome to the forum, and good luck!


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## NicoleRaee (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks so much for all of your great info. I've done lots of research on the internet, but had no idea adding Ph would be such a problem. My ph was off the charts for how low it was. Ph and ammonia were both at the opposite ends of the little color chart. I see I messed up changing the gravel and doing a big water change all at once. As far as my water changes go am I right to fill up my bucket with whatever amount of water im replacing, mix the conditioner and detoxifier in, and then add to the tank? Is the vacuum fairly easy to use? Any recommendations on which one would be best to get? A recommendation for the water testing supplies would be nice too. I'm a college student so something sufficient for a smaller budget would be nice. 

I'm planning on trying just 2 common goldfish this next time. As far as my tank goes. Right now its just sitting. I've emptied almost all of the water and decorations. Gravel is still in there. I'm assuming I need to dump the current gravel and fill with new. Start the cycling of the tank all over again? What needs to be done as far as cleaning the tank? I've read so much about bleach and vinegar to clean it out, but I've always thought you were only supposed to use normal water to clean everything so I've been unsure of what to do next. The part of the filter I changed was the filter cartridge. I just have a simple top fin filter. The cartridges just slide right in. I only used my filter cartridge for a day. Is it safe to use with the next tank or should I just toss it? 

Thanks again for your help.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Low pH and high ammonia are the classic signs of a cycling tank with little or no live plants.


PH can /will remian high and ammonia low/unmeasureable with lotsa fast growing live plants.

So I recommend you add lotsa fast growing plants like anacharis, perhaps a few vals, some wisteria and just let those grow and expand to maintain the tank.

Also from what I understand tetras can be difficult for the new hobbist.

just my .02


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

No problem! I'm glad to be able to help; I know how frustrating setting up a new tank can be! 

For one thing, I would not recommend goldfish. Your tank is a little too small, and they are actually harder to keep because they produce a LOT of ammonia. If you want a good beginner fish, try platies. They're hardy, adapt to a wide range of water conditions, and are cute, too! You can also try guppies, mollies, female bettas (a male betta would not get along with any other fish, unless you're lucky!), neon tetras, or zebra danios. How many fish you could have of each kind depends on your filtration, so it's up to your preferences. 

I'm a college student too, so I totally understand the budget thing! Test kits aren't expensive at all, and once you get them they last for a really long time. Here are some more tips to specifically answer your questions: 

- Yes, that is absolutely the best way to add new water! Though word to the wise: you shouldn't need to add ammonia detox every time. You only add that when the ammonia gets so high as to be dangerous to the fish. However, if you're worried about your tap water, do an ammonia test on it. If there's any ammonia in there, detox it. But there shouldn't be, since most city regulations prohibit ammonia in tap water anyway.

- The vacuum is really, really simple to use. All you have to do is put the wider end in the tank, as low as it will go, run the tube down into an empty bucket, and suck on the dry end to get the water going. I think they sell pumps if you're squeamish about it; I use a hand pump that I normally use to inflate my exercise ball. Maybe you can find something at a hardware store, or at a pet store. But the goal is to suck air through the tube to get the water going. It would help if your boyfriend or someone else held that end in the bucket while you move the vacuum end, or vice-versa. 

- My test kit includes an API liquid pH test, API liquid ammonia test, and Jungle 5-in-1 test strips. Like I said, always use a liquid test for ammonia and pH. Test strips are horribly inaccurate most of the time. Oh, something important to note: Depending on the detoxifier you use, ammonia will NOT be eliminated entirely. Instead, it is converted to a safer form called ammonium. This will STILL show up on a test kit, so as long as you used the proper dose you just have to trust that the levels are safe anyway. The detox will usually wear off in a couple of days, so do a water change if you're unsure.

- Because it's been empty, the cycle will start again. I would not change the gravel if I were you; just do a vacuuming of it and it'll be fine. Bleach is absolutely unsafe to use, unless you want to rinse it and let it sit for a long time afterwards. Vinegar is safe, but I think if you let the tank sit there for a few days before adding any more fish it should be fine without cleaning anything (you might want to double check that, though). 

- Since the bacteria didn't have time to establish, I'd just use a new filter cartridge. Something else you could do would be to rinse it thoroughly, let it dry for a day or two, and then re-use it. It should be safe. 

- Look into getting live plants. They're pretty, some are easy to keep (java fern and wisteria are good for beginners with low-light tanks; like me! ), and they do a lot to keep your fish healthy. Cycling a tank with plants is a lot less stressful for the fish. The only things you'd need for them would be a good liquid fertilizer (available at any pet store) and flourescent lighting (two 1500 K bulbs should do well, depending on the hood you have). Do you have a Top Fin 10 gallon starter kit? If so, the bulbs should fit. 

So now, you could try filling the tank up with water again, setting up any decorations, plants, lighting, etc. and then go from there.


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## NicoleRaee (Sep 14, 2011)

Awesome. Thanks for sharing all that. It helps a lot. I'll definitely remember it all for the future. 

As far as choosing new fish I have no idea what to pick. I had thought about bettas, but ive seen most people just have one betta with other different types of fish. Would it be possible to have just two female bettas? I considered doing that. This go around I'd like to just have a few fish. Maybe add more later, but i'd prefer to just have a couple. I know most fish are schooling fish that require at least 4 or 5 of each. If I were to start with 2 female bettas do you know of anything that would work well with them later on? Or maybe another type of fish instead of the bettas that I could just get a few of? When I first started this tank I did want guppies, but my concern with guppies is how fast they reproduce. I'm a little worried about that. 

I'll look in to the plants for sure too. I had 4 small plastic ones before. Real ones would be nice. 

Thanks for the insight on the testing kits. Petsmart is my closest pet/fish store so that's where I've been going. We purchased the Tiger Barbs from an aquatic critter store because its near my bf's work. Which I think is a little better than the big name stores, but its a long drive for me. Maybe they have better testing kits because petsmart for the most part only has strip kits. How much should I expect to pay for the water testing supplies? Most of the liquid kits ive seen are around $30. Or they have the ammonia kits for $12 roughly, but you also have to buy the ph test kit too which is like $7 for a month supply. If I remember all of that correctly. I'm not sure what to look for when I go to buy them so I've always just taken my water in to get it tested.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

Female bettas are very well suited to living in communities, so you can have one or two in your tank along with many different types of fish. The males are the ones that are aggressive. I tried keeping my Braveheart with some platies, and that ended in tragedy... But females are great in community tanks. 

Like I said, how many fish you can have depends on the fish and the filter. If you have a standard 10 gallon filter, then you could do maybe four or five platies. Like guppies, they can get pregnant. But with livebearers (guppies, mollies, platies, swordtails, and variatus), just be sure to only get females. They're easy to tell apart from the males; males have an altered anal fin called a gonopodium. Females have triangular fins that fan out from their bodies. Look up pictures online, and you'll be able to spot the difference immediately. Guppies are easier to tell apart, because the males are usually the most colorful (watch out for that, though; I've seen a lot of colorful females, too). You can try keeping all males if you're worried about it, but they can get aggressive with one another. 

A word about platies and mollies: the females can store sperm for a few months, so they can become pregnant. It happens sometimes, and if it does you can just take the babies to a fish store that will accept them. Some people let their fish eat the babies, though... I wouldn't, but then again I'm too soft-hearted to let that happen!  

If you opt for danios, neons, or other schooling fish, then you can add two every week or so until you have six. I've heard of many people keeping small groups of schooling fish like that quite successfully for extended periods of time. If you'd want to keep just two or three for a long time, though (like more than a month), then you might want to go with livebearers. 

Either way, if you opt for a female betta then you can keep her in there until the tank is cycled. Then you can add other kinds of fish, two or three at a time. A good plan would be to keep the betta until the tank cycles (and that should take anywhere from three to six weeks, depending on the plants you choose), then add three small schooling fish like neons. A week later, add two or three more. That stocks your tank fully, and in a relatively short time period!

With plants, the more the better! A saying on this forum is that if you can hardly see the fish because of all the plants, you're doing good! 

You can often buy testing kits online. The Jungle strips come in 25 packs, and are around $14 at Wal-Mart. During cycling, you'll test the water every day. But once it's cycled, you should only have to test it once a week, so your test usage really drops after the tank is established. As for the liquid kits, they usually run about the same. Trust me, though; they last for a lot longer than a month! I've had all my kits for almost 4 months, and I'm not about to run out any time soon! All of these prices are based on what I got at PetsMart, but they're comparable at PetCo. Depending on how well-stocked your local Wal-Mart is, you might be able to find the liquid kits there. 

Oh, here's a tip for liquid tests: Buy a couple of medicine droppers from Wal-Mart or a pharmacy. They REALLY help with measuring the right amount of water in the little glass tubes! Be sure to keep them with the aquarium supplies, though. I once caught my sister trying to use one for a class science project... I had to buy new ones after that, but I label them now with a colored strip of tape wrapped around the base.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There were a number of things that went wrong with your tank and it really just is the learning process we all go through. I wasn't surprised after reading that you had added meds, ammonia detox, and ph additive that your fish had all died. If you think about all the chemicals you had in there it is not hard to see where problems could occur. Filter or gravel changes during the cycling process can also be dangerous.

Personally, I would not dump your tank. There is nothing in it that is necessarily bad that couldn't be taken care of with a big water change. Do at least a 75% water and refill it with dechlorinated water, or add the dechlor to the tank before you add the water - either way works. Your tank still needs to complete the nitrogen cycle of establishing all the required beneficial bacteria to remain safe. Adding in any ammonia detox chemical can mess this process up and delay it. The preferred method to lower ammonia or nitrite problems is through a water change. During the cycling process, if ammonia or nitrites get above 1ppm, do a water change. About 30% should be enough, but if it is 3ppm or higher do a 50% change. Normally it will take close to 8wks with fish in your tank, but yours should be nearly finished. I would not add more than 2 fish for a 10g tank.

I would only get a liquid test kit. Strips have been very well known for being inaccurate. You can get one from Walmart online for about $20 shipped. Get the API master kit.


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## NicoleRaee (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks to both of you for your help. I will make notes of everything and hopefully things will go much better this time now that I know what i've been doing wrong. I appreciate the help.


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## MissPisces (Jun 8, 2011)

Sure thing! Good luck this time 'round. Just remember to keep your cool, and don't panic when something seems wrong! If something's off, taking the time to learn about it will help better than using drastic measures.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Everyone else has given good advice. I think you started to have problems because your tank was cycling and then the PH chemicals were what killed your fish suddenly. We all live and learn, things will be much smoother next time, with the help from the guys on here, I promise! This might help you:http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html

Just a note on the bettas. Only one male can be kept per tank, or they will kill each other. Males and females will also fight. Several females can be kept together but just two is unlikely to work, they will beat each other up, 3 has worked for some but at least 5 is better and even then it can be tricky to keep peace. I've been working on this this thread for a while:
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/stocking-10-gallon-tank-11742.html


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## FishesRDelicious (May 18, 2011)

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned a fishless cycle. Its a good idea to get some gravel or filter media from an established tank and let the bacteria do its thing. You'll want to read up on that if you haven't already, there may be more to know, but its a good way to jump start your bacteria colony.

The api master test kit is great to have. I've seen prices range from $30 to $20, so if you find one for 20-25 thats not bad. (Im a student too, so I understand prices) Mine was closer to $20, and if that still sounds expensive, let me say they last a REALLY long time. Again, you'll use it constantly while cycling but after you have a stable tank you wont have to test very often. I test my tanks maybe once a month, partly because you should keep tabs on whats happening, but partly because its fun to play with!


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