# Need Help With a Design Flaw



## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

So I finally got all the pieces for my DIY sump that I am going to use for my 75 gallon tank and I figured I would actually see how the 29 gallon tank I am planning on using for the sump will actually fit into the stand. *Facepalm*... I can't get the stupid tank into the stand from the front and the back is inaccessible due to the wall that is behind the tank. Short of tearing down the tank and moving it away from the wall to check and see if it will go in from the backside is not really something I want to do obviously because The 29 most likely wont fit in the stand that way either. I am extremely aggravated and am not thinking of very logical answers at the moment. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

Sigh... At this point I am ready to just kick out the center brace between the stand doors and set it in that way.
It honestly is not that huge of a deal that the 29 gallon won't fit under there because it is actually part of a full set up that I have. I think I am just going to call the $13 sheet of plexiglass I had cut yesterday extra scrap. I am leaning towards using a couple of Sterilite storage bins instead. I have been scouring youtube the last week or so and have seen many sumps based on those. the only issue I see with a sump made from storage bins is fabricating a bubble trap.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

I was completely kidding about kicking out the center support. My tank and stand would both be trash if I did that.
I am going with an open system. I guess I should have said a wet/dry filter instead of a sump. I saw one that was made from 2 smaller bins that were piped together with a 2-3" pipe. Up until I realized that the 29 would not fit I had planned on having my bio media in one of those white 3 drawer systems that you buy at Wal-Mart and have it filter down through that first. I am still planning on using that for the media. It's the next stage of the filter that I am not so sure about. I think that as long as I don't get to carried away and make it more complex than it needs to be that should work for my tank.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

set the sump on the floor besides the tank or on a stand so it is lower then the display.

then make a display refugium.

You may just find out visitors are as interested in the plants, algae, pods, and so forth that are in the refugium.

my .02


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> set the sump on the floor besides the tank or on a stand so it is lower then the display.
> 
> then make a display refugium.
> 
> ...


That would be the most practical thing to do, but I have no room to do that.
I think I have solved my problem though. I am going to scrap the plans to use my 29 gallon tank and use 2 storage bins that I forgot about and were empty. I did check this time, and they do fit nicely under my tank. I am not planning on having a huge amount of water in them at any given time. They are only going to raise my water volume by 15 - 20 gallons. I have not had much time to experiment with it yet since I found them right before I had to leave for work. There will be ample room for overflow in case of a power outage so that is not an issue. I will have to wait to get home to start playing with different configurations.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I almost ran into this back when I was going with a big wet/dry for my one of my 125s. I had measured underneath one, but was buying for my 2nd one. When I got it, I was surprised that it wasn't going to go through the front like I had hoped. Although it arrived damaged and decided not to use one, I had come up with a plan to remove the end pieces that are in between the corner pieces on my stand. This would have have given me the room I needed to just slide it in the end of the stand. I had planned to do about an 80% water change to reduce the weight, which would drop the weight about 650lbs, and it would have worked. You could remove the center brace if you put in two braces on each side of it, temporary of course. Just make sure that the width of the two pieces are positioned wide enough to give you the room you need.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

That sounds good in theory, but my carpentry skill are a bit lacking. one of many things would happen if I attempted this, 
1. The stand would collapse.
2. The tank would shatter.
3. The tank would fall and crush me.
4. I would end up breaking the stand in the process.
5. my wife would go into labor and stop me in the middle of the project, and when I was able to get beck to it the cats would have jumped up on the tank and ended up knocking it over due to the lack of support under it.
6. Any combination of the above scenarios.
I think anything involving draining the tank is out of the question at the moment due to my lack of willingness to get "to involved" with this project at the moment. Although all the suggestions that you all have given me are good ones, none of which I would have thought of on my own, are just to much for me to deal with right now.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

to use two storage bins I would recommend the sump one be a small foot print to the water level change per gallon is much more. that would make adjustments much easier.

And (of course) the container that drains into the sump should be maintained at a more or less constant level with an overflow. 

I recommend that because I used a storage container on my 55g crammed in for and aft sticking out the back of the stand. I found I had to maintain a much lower level when adjusted. So having that drain into a sump allows the refugium area to remain at a much higher level so more macros can be grown.


my .02


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> to use two storage bins I would recommend the sump one be a small foot print to the water level change per gallon is much more. that would make adjustments much easier.
> 
> And (of course) the container that drains into the sump should be maintained at a more or less constant level with an overflow.
> 
> ...


The way I am planning on setting it up is the filter media will be in a smaller sized 3 drawer system that sits in a 12 1/2 gallon tub. I am going to connect the 12 1/2 gallon tub to a second 12.5 tub and have the return pump in it. If my calculations hold true there will be roughly 10 - 12 gallons in the sump at any given time. I am going to put ball valves on both the intake and return lines to help with flow control (and from what I have read it can help with noise). 
While I am thinking about it... Is there a way to set up the pump to be able to shut it off if it runs dry and prevent it from burning up?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

there are water level sensors that can turn off the pump.

I do not recommend and adjustment valves in return or drains for flow control. You pump should be able to go full blast and the drain handle that. Some do use valves on the return to divert some of the flow back to the sump as a means of limiting the return flow. But generally that is not necessary. Others do use a drain valve to quiet the system down but a proper return (durso type or water traps) should be quiet.

when adjusting I found rather quickly about power outage and return and the reverse siphon through the return lines. But it took a couple of floods before I learned about the pump running out of water before the display floods when I had overflow/drain failures. 
If you do use level sensors make sure then run off of DC not AC. Ac creates a shock hazard but not DC. Which is the reason you can lay a finger over an electric train track and not get shocked. so use the level sensor for fire a DC actuated relay that remotley controls the pump power.


my .02


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

Could you link to an example of a DC sensor? I have no idea what to even look for as far as that goes?
The reason I am planning on putting a valve on the sump intake is because I am one of those "over the top" kind of guys that has to make everything bigger than it needs to be, including overflows.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Your return nozzle should have a pin-hole that is about 2" into your tank. Once the water level gets below that, return siphon is broken. It should be dam near impossible to overflow your sump. This is some of the testing you have to do though when you initially set it up. In a power loss, siphon has to be broken and when power comes back up, flow has to restart into your overflow box. Get that happening and you should never have a problem. Float switch is a good idea.

Also, I drained down my 75g to move to an opposite wall a while back. Wasn't very hard to move with one other person and I didn't even remove fish.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

That is definitely something I need to add to my checklist. I would have completely overlooked the return siphon issue until it happened.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

TypeYourTextHere said:


> Could you link to an example of a DC sensor? I have no idea what to even look for as far as that goes?
> ...
> .


Actually I don't have a link.

But you can buy float valves on line and very inexpensive. They just close contacts at some water level.

My concern is that people would and have just connected the pump power through that float valve which would be very dangerous.

When setting it up I would use a relay whose coil is dc powered to control the ac power through the contacts to the pump itself. Obviosly remote from the aquarium and water and higher then both.

I guess the relay coil could be powered by batteries, a battery eliminator, or dc transformer/power supply.

The last thing you need is 120vac in contact with the aquarium water! 

my .02

FWIW I little bit of history. Edison was an advocate of DC current and Westinghouse AC current. AC has the advantage of using transformers to step up or down the voltage. 

Edison was worried about the safety so to demonstrate the dangers of AC designed the electric chair for capital punisment. (which uses AC) *old dude


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

TypeYourTextHere said:


> That is definitely something I need to add to my checklist. I would have completely overlooked the return siphon issue until it happened.


May never happen and if it does it is extremely obvious. If your return line outlets are above the water line the siphon never happens. *old dude

my .02


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## madtyke (Sep 26, 2011)

I think you know the only real solution is to break down the tank and start over, hey its a hassle but anything else is really just a compromise. Good luck


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

madtyke said:


> I think you know the only real solution is to break down the tank and start over, hey its a hassle but anything else is really just a compromise. Good luck


That's definitely not going to happen. I have zero desire to tear down my tank to ultimately save $15.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LOL, put the return above your water level and your tank level would have to be 4-5" below the rim or make a mess with the return power of the pump, or both. Most U-tubes have a pin-hole already in them to break the syphon, once the water level gets down low enough from the sump filling up. One like this...Aquarium Plumbing: Directional U-Tube

If you're looking for a simple inexpensive float switch, try here: AutoTopoff.com No need to make it difficult or have to spend so many hours searching for what you need for pieces parts.


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

I am actually considering using a spray bar anyway, so I don't know it i will even need to drill a siphon break at this point. Right now I am still designing the sump portion of the system and have a pretty good idea of what is going into the tank, but I have not made any measurements except fiting the sump under the tank. I have a rough idea of how long the return line is going to have to be, but I am not sure how to incorporate the U-tube/spraybar. I was planning on just making a U-tube out of elbows and pipe. Is there a difference between doing it this way opposed to using a store bought U-tube?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

TypeYourTextHere said:


> I am actually considering using a spray bar anyway, so I don't know it i will even need to drill a siphon break at this point. Right now I am still designing the sump portion of the system and have a pretty good idea of what is going into the tank, but I have not made any measurements except fiting the sump under the tank. I have a rough idea of how long the return line is going to have to be, but I am not sure how to incorporate the U-tube/spraybar. I was planning on just making a U-tube out of elbows and pipe. *Is there a difference between doing it this way opposed to using a store bought U-tube*?


Yeppers


Your way is cheaper. *old dude


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> LOL, put the return above your water level and your tank level would have to be 4-5" below the rim or make a mess with the return power of the pump, or both. Most U-tubes have a pin-hole already in them to break the syphon, once the water level gets down low enough from the sump filling up. One like this...Aquarium Plumbing: Directional U-Tube
> 
> If you're looking for a simple inexpensive float switch, try here: AutoTopoff.com No need to make it difficult or have to spend so many hours searching for what you need for pieces parts.


and here is exactly what I was talking about in the upgrades section of that site:



upgrades said:


> This design uses low voltage to power the relay. The advantage is the increased safety due to the reduced voltage which runs through the float switch(es). *A 12V DC transformer is used to power the relay to switch 120 VAC power to run your pump or solenoid. *The 12V power supply cable is 5 feet long.
> 
> This upgrade can be added to any topoff controller.
> 
> Low Voltage Upgrade: $7.00


I worry this means ac is used in their other designs. Which I consider unsafe.

*old dude

but hey
that's just me

and my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

You mean like what is powering the submerged pump?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Main thing for the return is buying the right pump. The length of the return line has a huge impact in the gph of the pump. Maybe you already mentioned this somewhere, ut just be sure to check it out before you buy the pump because they are not cheap. I would also get a mag pump. You can rebuild them yourself and parts are readily available.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> You mean like what is powering the submerged pump?


that is a good and valid question.

Obviously a submerged pump is also running off of 120vac. Which equally makes me nervious. So I use the pump line for that and other reasons.

but if the float valve uses 12vac to fire a relay safety is enhanced. that way the 120vac to the pump is removed from the switch and water.

my .02


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jccaclimber said:


> ^So I take it you don't like powerheads?


yep even though I used them. *old dude

but at least pumps/powerheads are completely potted in epoxi. Unlike a float switch which must float and must have an air space for the contacts, and has some movement. All you need is a little leak for a shock hazard.

but even that is avoided by using 12vdc on the switch. *old dude


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

I got almost all the parts for the overflow and plumbing for my sump. All I need now is flex tubing, the pump and 2 air check valves. 
As far as the plumbing coming off the pump goes, it will be pushing roughly 375-400 GPH through a 3/4" pipe. My only question about that is will silicone work to keep the pipes sealed and together or should I get some PVC glue to connect the pipes?


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## TypeYourTextHere (Apr 20, 2011)

Yes I am using PVC for most of it. I have flex tubing that is going to make the bend from the pump to the vertical PVC pipe from the sump for two reasons, it will avoid using two more elbows and will make it a little easier to work with. I wasn't sure about the PVC glue so I didn't get any today. I am going to use ring clamps on the flex tubing too.
As far as making a spray bar, I was thinking I would make it about 2 feet long and use 1/8" holes possibly 3/16" holes depending on the flow rate. What do you think?


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