# Some Questions I Had About Tank Strength and Leveling/Stability...



## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

In the wake of our 60-gallon tank cracking and flooding our home yesterday, I started doing some online research and discovered that an uneven floor surface may have caused the crack in the back glass of our tank, and this concerned me very much because we suspected the second floor room where this tank was housed was weak to begin with, based on walking on it and feeling as though we were going to go right through the floor...

If this is the case, and our floor in this upstairs loft was uneven and weak, I do NOT want to set up another tank in the same location (the only place we can put it) because it will probably happen again (the cracked glass). We spoke to the contractor already about strengthening that part of the floor in that room, and the insurance adjuster is coming tomorrow again to analyze the damage (our house is COMPLETELY ripped up with carpets picked up and drywall removed everywhere) but if this is going to occur again, there is NO WAY I am doing another tank...

That leads me to this: Is it remotely possible that an unlevel floor that the tank's oak wood stand was sitting on CAUSED or contributed to this tank cracking? Can a floor be THAT warped to cause the glass to crack under uneven pressure distribution? 

Additionally -- are there drastic, noteworthy differences between aquariums and their glass they are made with? Our tank was made by California-based "Fujimoto," which has been around for some 37 years, and it included a thick glass center brace, but I don't know how strong this tank actually was...

Is there a certain company outside of the garden variety Marinelands, Aqueons, Fujimotos, etc. that is known for building strong, non-rimless tanks? Are there differences between all these brands in terms of glass strength/thickness? 

*c/p*


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Yea, I've been following your posts. We're buddies, so I'll say it. With the scalding water, strong chemicals, the possibilty of a warped floor, a tank that may be 37 years old (a company I don't know, but that doesn't immediatly discredit them right) usually just one of these factors would cause a person to think, yea maybe that's it. So it's like this for me. Figure out how to fix your house, consider it a project, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Take care of the guys in the 10, and if that means passing them on to someone that can take care of them...ok. It sucks but it's the best. Keep dodging the meat cleavers to the head from your misses  And dust off and try again if you want, if not don't. 

I'm just saying and this is a catch 22 because I've seen some advice that's no bueno, people said more than once not to do some of the things you acknowledged but went ahead and did. I'm guilty, it sucks. It could have been just as likely it was a glass flaw etc. So, learn to fix your crib, take care of the fish, and be good  - N


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Nereus,

I don't really follow much of what you're saying here, but I will say this: The tank itself is not 37 years old -- the COMPANY that made it has been in BUSINESS for 37 years MAKING TANKS...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

_What?_

What are you talking about?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Nereus,

YOU stated:

_*the possibilty of a warped floor, a tank that may be 37 years old*_

And then I told you that the TANK WAS NOT 37 YEARS OLD, the company that MAKES THEM is, and you replied with:

"Yaa...the rest is just fibblefobble" or some nonsense like that...

So I ask you again: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

I said:

Yea, I've been following your posts. We're buddies, so I'll say it. With the scalding water, strong chemicals, the possibilty of a warped floor, a tank that may be 37 years old (a company I don't know, but that doesn't immediatly discredit them right) usually just one of these factors would cause a person to think, yea maybe that's it. So it's like this for me. Figure out how to fix your house, consider it a project, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Take care of the guys in the 10, and if that means passing them on to someone that can take care of them...ok. It sucks but it's the best. Keep dodging the meat cleavers to the head from your misses And dust off and try again if you want, if not don't. 

I'm just saying and this is a catch 22 because I've seen some advice that's no bueno, people said more than once not to do some of the things you acknowledged but went ahead and did. I'm guilty, it sucks. It could have been just as likely it was a glass flaw etc. So, learn to fix your crib, take care of the fish, and be good - N


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

If the floor is warped so that it moves underfoot, then the tank will move and the tank could fail.

But you boiled the thing. It is regular glass, not designed for strong heat. You used commercial cleansers in it. You subjected that tank to serious stresses, which makes it almost certain that you broke it. You were warned in advance, too.

People live and learn. If your floor moves underfoot, don't put another tank there. It could have contributed. Check the joists in the floor.
If your floor is fine, get a new tank but don't boil it, zap it, nuke it, laminate it, sanitize it or poison it.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

quite possibly the weirdest thread ive read on here! i agree with nav tho, all those things you done couldnt of been good for it!

our big tank is on the piss by about an inch coz of where it was put, the chest of drawers right draw has bowed down but the floor doesnt move under it and so far (6 months) no cracks! not saying it wont because it could but at any time, but your tanks been up a lot less time and youve done all sorts of crazy things to it so possibly the main cause of the crack.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Our big tank is on the piss... what does that translate to in english?

Yo... the physics of this weight is insane. If you get your tank off balance and god forbid its to the point where it's got to twist to compensate?... 

I'm saying, funny stuff aside, sometimes you need a reality check..

Like knapping arrowheads, glass doesn't have fiber, it just runs.... pics?


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

Nereus7 said:


> Our big tank is on the piss... what does that translate to in english?
> 
> Yo... the physics of this weight is insane. If you get your tank off balance and god forbid its to the point where it's got to twist to compensate?...
> 
> ...


haha that, dear nereus, is proper english! it means our biggest tank isnt level. 

were trying to work out how to get it level without destroying the drawers, its a rented flat and the drawers came with it you see.

as it stands its being supported by the end and middle strut but its tipped slightly to the right where the weights has bowed the wood, so the tanks not twisted just slightly facing down hill.

whats arrowheads?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

You need to shim it empty my english friend, get the tank,substrate and sand level, I use floor tiles for this. My 210g has 2 square feet of tiles stacked on top of eachother to fill some gaps.

If you get it level without the water its easier to do, with water you might break something. You can also use cut offs of 2x4 lumber and use a riser bolt to level the tank then shim to fill the gaps, this can be done independantly at all 4 corners even more if you have more then a 4' footprint. None of my leveled tanks have ever cracked but I wont set up a tank until its certainly level if not TRUED.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

thing is its level with out anything in it. once its got water, fish, decor and sand in thats when it tips. ill take pics tonight of the stand and post them on here as im not sure if putting something under the chest of drawers will work as its the top thats bowing. i thought if it was moved to the centre of the drawers then it would only be the middle strut holding the weight and it would bend the tank as the pressure of both ends of the tank would bow the top. the tank is 4' long and i think 3' wide. or would it jsut be easier to buy a 5 foot tank to fit the full lenght of the chest of drawers?!


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Its not level if it is listing when there is water weight in it. You need to put the level on it and check it side to side and front to back even back corner to opposite front corner , you know it lists to one side already to when its empty push down on that side. I am assuming this is on carpet, if this is on a hard floor then you need to get a professional into your place and make sure they are structural engineers because you have a structure issue if its not on carpet/padding. 

If its on carpet you can use wood shims(get the wide kind the small ones are a waste in our hobby) and put those down then set the tank down OR better yet use a piece of plywood(water proof/resist it with a good sealer) and set the tank and stand on that wood thats the same size as your stands footprint and this will give you a hard surface under the stand to shim. 

But if its moving when the water gets in it you dont have a good base structure that you are working with and need to fix that issue to solve another.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

yeah its on carpet.

just googled wood shims.....wow there expensive!!! 

ill measure the level and post pics when i get back, to be honest i get all confused with this buliding stuff.....give me a complext chemical problem to sort out any day over leveling a tank!!!!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> If the floor is warped so that it moves underfoot, then the tank will move and the tank could fail.
> 
> But you boiled the thing. It is regular glass, not designed for strong heat. You used commercial cleansers in it. You subjected that tank to serious stresses, which makes it almost certain that you broke it. You were warned in advance, too.
> 
> ...


Navigator,

I specifically mentioned either in this thread or another once recently that I ADMIT I was probably wrong and to blame for using the scalding hot water on the tank when cleaning it -- I ADMITTED you were more than likely 100 percent right, and that the hot water contributed to the crack. So I KNOW I was warned in advance -- there's no need to further rub salt on a wound which is KILLING me right now (our house is COMPLETELY gutted from this disaster, and we are not even living in it right now...you can't believe what we're going through). I realize I was warned.

Some of your other insight concerns me, though -- are you saying that ANOTHER CRACK could take place should we put a new stand and tank in the same spot and the floor isn't 100 percent level? We're having our contractors look at the structural integrity of that spot and see if the floor needs to be strengthened and stabilized, because that's the ONLY spot we can put a tank in, but are you saying this could DEFINITELY happen again (of course assuming there's no more boiling water, etc. going into it)? Also, here are some other things to chew on: Can GRAVEL had played a role in this? We had a pretty nice sized level of natural pebble/gravel at the bottom, and I am wondering if the weight of this substrate combined with the method I used to first dump it into the tank -- which was just to dump the loads of gravel hard and fast from the bucket -- may have opened up a crack at the BOTTOM of the aquarium; there's just no way to know for sure...but is this possible? If so, how do I go about avoiding this in the future? How gentle is gravel supposed to go in initially?

Let's talk some more about other factors now -- if we do get a new tank (and definitely a new stand; you can see just how damaged the particle board on this old black oak stand was now that the house is gutted from the flood), how do I go about washing it or at least rinsing it to begin putting gravel back in? Just a sponge and lightly wipe? And do you recommend a certain kind of stand to place a big tank like a 60-plus gallon? Is wood okay, or would something else be stronger? Finally, I have read reports of people suggesting styrofoam "basins" beneath a tank before it goes on to a stand to distribute the water weight evenly and better protect it...do you know anything about this?

Thus, we have arrived at one of the main points of this thread -- if we do decide to start up another tank, *is there a certain manufacturer I should be looking towards that simply makes "better" or stronger aquariums? Outside of the standard Aqueons, Marinelands, Fujimotos, etc., is there a brand that simply uses premium, thicker glass perhaps or one that is renowned for making VERY strong tanks?*

Any insight you can lend here would be massively appreciated.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Nereus7 said:


> I said:
> 
> Yea, I've been following your posts. We're buddies, so I'll say it. With the scalding water, strong chemicals, the possibilty of a warped floor, a tank that may be 37 years old (a company I don't know, but that doesn't immediatly discredit them right) usually just one of these factors would cause a person to think, yea maybe that's it. So it's like this for me. Figure out how to fix your house, consider it a project, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Take care of the guys in the 10, and if that means passing them on to someone that can take care of them...ok. It sucks but it's the best. Keep dodging the meat cleavers to the head from your misses And dust off and try again if you want, if not don't.
> 
> ...


I don't need a brail version; you're just a nincompoop of the seventh magnitude, trying to derail my threads with nonsense rhetoric you _think_ is funny. I'll have the mods deal with that again in a sec...

You COMPLETELY took my question and reply out of context -- YOU claimed I was using a tank nearly 37 years old, when all I said was the COMPANY THAT MAKES THEM HAS BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR 37 YEARS.

Still see no difference? I can't help you then.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*Mods/Susan: PLEASE advise certain members to keep this thread -- and others -- on track and to STOP derailing them with useless commentary.*

Thank you.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

^what he said


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

zero said:


> yeah its on carpet.
> 
> just googled wood shims.....wow there expensive!!!
> 
> ill measure the level and post pics when i get back, to be honest i get all confused with this buliding stuff.....give me a complext chemical problem to sort out any day over leveling a tank!!!!


go to your home improvement store in your area, im not sure what jolly ole england has to offer in that aspect but even a lumber yard will have the big shims they use them when framing a house mainly as they are long and wide but they are mearly cut offs from custom cuts of lumber. 

I put my 210 on concrete but even that was extremely unlevel and wavy so I had to get really technical and found a simple way to get it level and keep it level, I am working with over 3k pounds I have 300 pounds alone of gravel in the tank and added another 35 pounds a few weeks back to build some terraces and it sits perfectly level, infact I think its the most level thing in the house.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Still awaiting your answer, Nav...


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Id personally go acrylic, they are much lighter then glass and much stronger and less likely to crack, especially if you get a seamless one. They make them with curved corners in 60g sizes that will fit on your stand. glasscages.com might have some but I know for sure ADA does. Fujimoto might have em too.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> Id personally go acrylic, they are much lighter then glass and much stronger and less likely to crack, especially if you get a seamless one. They make them with curved corners in 60g sizes that will fit on your stand. glasscages.com might have some but I know for sure ADA does. Fujimoto might have em too.


Thank you, White Glove...

I never considered an acrylic tank; do they make them in standard, rectangular shapes in the 60 and up size? What is the difference between acrylic versus glass?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

ClinicaTerra said:


> Thank you, White Glove...
> 
> I never considered an acrylic tank; do they make them in standard, rectangular shapes in the 60 and up size? What is the difference between acrylic versus glass?


yup, they make em very small and very large, its lighter, stronger and easier to work with then glass.

Acrylic is all around stronger then glass, but they cost more then glass too, however it pays off in a short amount of time, the very first thing is clarity, its crystal clear and they make aquarium safe cleaners and polishes for it to kee p it that way. 

Im not saying glass cages is the best but they are one of many acrylic tank suppliers. 

Ive got a few acrylics, mainly empty due to the eurobracing I picked for QT tank purposes and at the swaps to hold live fish but now I am finding it hard to filter them with anything other than a sponge filter without drilling the things.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> yup, they make em very small and very large, its lighter, stronger and easier to work with then glass.
> 
> Acrylic is all around stronger then glass, but they cost more then glass too, however it pays off in a short amount of time, the very first thing is clarity, its crystal clear and they make aquarium safe cleaners and polishes for it to kee p it that way.
> 
> ...


Indeed, I am seeing on Petsmart's site that a 60 gallon acrylic is some $800 -- we simply cannot go for that kind of money at the moment. We paid $60 for our 60 gallon tank NEW, as the pet store was running a "$1 per gallon" sale...yet now I am thinking we must have gotten a real crap tank with the cheapest glass they could make it out of based on the price. The tank did come with a thick glass center brace, but who knows regarding the quality of the sealants or the glass itself...

Should acrylic, though, be pretty much shatter and crack proof compared to a glass tank? My G-d, man, we DO NOT want to go through this AGAIN...our house is in SHAMBLES right now...


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

Nereus7 said:


> ^what he said


I deleted a lot of your posts in here and am going to in the other thread of his. Please keep your posts a little more concise and to the point. Not way out in the land of oz.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you, Susan...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Well Clinica, here is my answer: No.

A good stand on an even floor with some strofoam or another weight and shock absorbing substance under the tank can easily take the everyday vibrations of people walking around, kids playing or even the odd party with wild dancing. It'll take minor earthquakes in stride. 
As long as the floor isn't spongy, you're fine. When it gets about 20 years old, you might want to replace it. Then again, I just mothballed a tank I used for 36 years.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

susankat said:


> I deleted a lot of your posts in here and am going to in the other thread of his. Please keep your posts a little more concise and to the point. Not way out in the land of oz.


BTW Susan:

If you read between the fine lines here, he was simply being a smart-*** with that remark of "what he said" by mocking my post of controlling the off-topic remarks...in other words, he was like "yeah -- what HE said" as if HE had nothing to do with the situation or that I wasn't referring to him...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> Well Clinica, here is my answer: No.
> 
> A good stand on an even floor with some strofoam or another weight and shock absorbing substance under the tank can easily take the everyday vibrations of people walking around, kids playing or even the odd party with wild dancing. It'll take minor earthquakes in stride.
> As long as the floor isn't spongy, you're fine. When it gets about 20 years old, you might want to replace it. Then again, I just mothballed a tank I used for 36 years.


Can you give me a bit more insight here? I had asked you a lot of questions, so are you saying that my "bouncy, uneven" floor COULD have cracked this aquarium by itself? Was it SIMPLY the hot water, and it created a crack like a windshield, and eventually rippled upward? 

I just want to know this -- if I do a big tank in this room again, with the contractors doing SOMETHING to reinforce this floor, can I simply buy another "affordable" glass tank and standard wooden stand/canopy without worrying if it's going to crack and split again? Of course, this is assuming NO hot water or chemicals would ever be used on it again...


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes.

I'm not there. Your idea of an uneven floor and mine may differ - I've lived in some very old flats.
If your tank moved around, it might have broken, but such breaks usually come along a seam. The weak point is always the connection, and an uneven or shifting tank goes at the silicone, not at the glass.

Weakened glass goes from the point of weakness, which may have been microscopic cracking from the heat.

No one can give you guarantees, but I live with 45 tanks in a 50 year old house, with a wife who will kill me if one springs. 

I live without fear.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'm not there. Your idea of an uneven floor and mine may differ - I've lived in some very old flats.
> If your tank moved around, it might have broken, but such breaks usually come along a seam. The weak point is always the connection, and an uneven or shifting tank goes at the silicone, not at the glass.
> ...


What are you saying "yes" to exactly?

And can I ask you something: _Why do you have 45 fish tanks in your house?!?_ That is simply incredible to me; why so many?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

when an acrylic tank goes it goes in chunks, but that is very rare.

Find used ones, I found a used 300g acrylic with sumps and lights for $400 bucks, a fraction of its original cost. Craigslist is going to be your best bet for a used tank but you sir are in PRIME country for used tanks.

I feel for ya but nav is saying it best, however I have personally seen tanks split due to shifting, earthquakes are a very violent beast. Usually its at the seems but if there was micro cracks starting a shift would certainly open it right up. 

You can get a 60g column tank that takes up less then 4 square feet. I am a very firm believer in space saving as well as zero water damage, I carry 500K in flood damage insurance to every job I go on and if I have to file a claim I am financially hurt more so then the homeowner less irreplaceable items.
All my tanks are kept near floor drains for this very reason, My inwall tanks get the bathtub treatment(coffer dam under it directed towards the nearest drain or I install a plastic tub and a drain in that). I hope everything works out in the end for you, inform the wife that she isnt alone out there and it will get better very soon(if you got good insrance)


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

The 'Yes' was to your question.

I too do freelance writing, and for years I had a niche with aquarium writing. It was a good little sideline, but if you do not know what you are writing about, you really shouldn't write. I love reading about the subjects that fascinate me, but I need to see for myself and not just interpret the words of others. I built up my 'fishroom' with its tanks to generate info for lots of articles on fishkeeping, as I would not write on something unless I had hands on experience with it. Then, I took on a new day job and cut back to the occasional article, from what had been a monthly column job.
I now breed and sometimes sell uncommon species of fish, and amuse myself with the study of diversity and convergence - the way habitat shapes a species. I've also ended up with a couple of extinct in nature or seriously threatened fish that I breed and distribute, and that takes a bit of place.
You can learn an enormous amount from seriously observing a fish species in a well set up aquarium, as it lives, breeds, sorts territory, etc. I guess every one of these tanks I have is like a book in a library, and I tend to read a lot of books at the same time.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> The 'Yes' was to your question.


Right -- _which_ question, exactly?



> I too do freelance writing, and for years I had a niche with aquarium writing. It was a good little sideline, *but if you do not know what you are writing about, you really shouldn't write.*




What are you trying to say about me?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> when an acrylic tank goes it goes in chunks, but that is very rare.
> 
> Find used ones, I found a used 300g acrylic with sumps and lights for $400 bucks, a fraction of its original cost. Craigslist is going to be your best bet for a used tank but you sir are in PRIME country for used tanks.


We're not going to consider getting into used because of our fear and paranoia now about breaking tanks -- but what do you mean I am in "prime" country for used tanks? 



> I feel for ya but nav is saying it best, however I have personally seen tanks split due to shifting, earthquakes are a very violent beast. Usually its at the seems but if there was micro cracks starting a shift would certainly open it right up.


I know you had suggested that perhaps that small quake that rocked the West Coast may have contributed to this crack -- and that very well may be. I spoke to the project manager for the contractor company that's doing the repairs in our house this morning (he was back for an inspection and removal of the water extraction machinery) and informed him of my concerns regarding the exact spot we would do another tank in -- the exact same spot where this last one was -- in terms of the weakened floor and "bowing," wonky stability of this floor, and asked if there was anything they could do to reinforce the area so it can hold all the pressure and weight of a big aquarium. He told me there was really nothing they could do, after looking at the floor of the loft we had the tank in and then at the living room ceiling below it, and that he seriously doubted the "uneven floor" even caused this rift in the glass. He said he would bet it was definitely the hot water I used to clean the tank the last time. Still, it concerned me that a contractor couldn't do anything to reinforce the floors of this home -- he claimed, after walking on the loft's floors a bit and testing them, that there was nothing he could see that would constitute "unstable" or "weak." 

He also considered, for a moment, putting in some kind of "drain pan" system for us that would go beneath the tank I suppose so then the water from a leak would simply drain into a toilet, bathtub or outside -- but after looking at our water heater and options in our pipes, he said it couldn't be done. Have you ever heard of installing a "drain system" in case of a leaky fish tank? It seemed like a great idea, actually, but this is something we would have to pay out of pocket and G-d only knows how much that would cost; my wife doesn't think it's worth it to keep an aquarium. 



> You can get a 60g column tank that takes up less then 4 square feet. I am a very firm believer in space saving as well as zero water damage, I carry 500K in flood damage insurance to every job I go on and if I have to file a claim I am financially hurt more so then the homeowner less irreplaceable items.


So it would be a 60 gallon HIGH instead of LONG? If so, I don't think that's the best route for fancy goldfish, given their oxygen/surface air needs, no? Even so, how would that avoid flooding my house again if a crack/leak developed? 



> All my tanks are kept near floor drains for this very reason, My inwall tanks get the bathtub treatment(coffer dam under it directed towards the nearest drain or I install a plastic tub and a drain in that). I hope everything works out in the end for you, inform the wife that she isnt alone out there and it will get better very soon(if you got good insrance)


Okay -- THIS touches on what I was asking you above (I didn't notice this part of your statement until now); would it be possible to have something like a drain system installed on an upper level so that if a broken tank happens again, the water can be channeled elsewhere (outdoors or into a tub or something)? Who would do this kind of work? Our contractor apparently doesn't want to be bothered with it, the a-hole that he is...

Thanks for the wishes; I truly hope it gets better soon, but it seems like this nightmare will never end...the workers aren't coming back until Tuesday to finish the repairs to the ceiling and carpet people are coming on Tuesday as well -- then we need to turn our attention to starting up another tank before the ones in the 10 gallon die.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

"What are you trying to say about me?"

That blind-sided me. I was saying nothing about you. You asked why I would have 45 tanks and I answered. You need to relax. It's not about you!

I'm off your threads again. You often seem to take offence, and I don't wish to offend you. Therefore, I simply won't respond to or even read you, and we can both continue our merry ways without conflict or more misunderstandings. Good luck sorting out this mess, and I sincerely hope you soon get to sit back, relax and enjoy your hobby.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

navigator black said:


> "What are you trying to say about me?"
> 
> That blind-sided me. I was saying nothing about you. You asked why I would have 45 tanks and I answered. You need to relax. It's not about you!
> 
> I'm off your threads again. You often seem to take offence, and I don't wish to offend you. Therefore, I simply won't respond to or even read you, and we can both continue our merry ways without conflict or more misunderstandings. Good luck sorting out this mess, and I sincerely hope you soon get to sit back, relax and enjoy your hobby.


Wow. You are some piece of work, if I may be so bold. I feel like I'm dealing with Mr. Nereus all over again. YOU said THIS:

*I too do freelance writing, and for years I had a niche with aquarium writing. It was a good little sideline, but if you do not know what you are writing about, you really shouldn't write.*

So I thought you were referring TO MY OCCUPATION AND ABILITIES because I am an accomplished, internationally-published freelance writer. 

THAT'S why I was taking offense.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

yea I'll let that one slide timmy. - N


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

^^^Boy, you just don't know when to quit, do ya?

And the mods just can't get through to you, huh? 

Let's see if this works...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

*Moderators: You have been sent a report regarding Nereus.*


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

you.. you'd tell on me?










How bout don't use my name, and I won't use yours.. fairnuff?


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Nothing wrong with used tanks man, nothing at all, all my tanks are used less my 40g acrylic cube which I got off the back of a truck. No hobbyist or former hobbyist will sell someone a bunk tank without disclosure.

Secondly, you need a different contractor, find a PROFESSIONAL STRUCTURAL ENGINEER,not a contractor, contractors utilize engineers when developing structures. Ive seen people use cinder blocks to stablize gun safes over crawl spaces and basements, believe me this a gun safe outweighs an empty 200g glass tank and a 200g empty tank weights 660 pounds dry..... Relax a bit man, I got alot of issues and anger management is one of them, I understand all to well what you are going thru though mine didnt happen with a fish tank but a basement window blew open when we have over 10" of rain in 3 hours, thats ALOT more then 60g, imagine 1000 square feet of living space with 6" of standing water corner to corner, even with dual sump pumps it couldnt keep up, EVERYTHING was a total loss all the way down to the concrete floor and walls, so just ease up on the tension a bit and itll be a easier thing to deal with.

We are trying to help you, nav is a wealth of knowledge that you offended by being defensive over this situation which we all can understand but dont bite the hands that help you, ok brother.

Now go find a very well reputed structural engineer firm and see what they can do or recommend be done. yeah it costs but it needs to be done. 

Next time you clean a tank, use the cheapest white vinegar you can find, a few plastic putty knives for scraping and leverage and 0000 steel wool(will not mess with the glass).
Check out a few local fish clubs, many many times there is a high turnover of tanks, especially when someone goes from keeping display tanks everywhere to downsizing or converting to a breeding set up you can get a steal on 55g+ sized tanks.
these are USED TANKS

















just make sure they are filled with water before you hand over money, its that simple.


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

All right, this is stopping now. Nereus please back off this persons threads. Please it makes it easier for me.

Clinica Terra, you are being over sensative on several aspects. Your statement to Navigator Black is way off base. You asked the question, he gave you the answer. It is up to you how you take those answers, but there is no since in posting rude remarks either. If it doesn't there won't be anyone that is going to answer your questions. Think before you speak.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I am unaware of a company that makes a stronger tank. Not being a genius I would imagine (and do believe) that all tanks for sale by know manufacturers would have and are tested to assure that they perform properly.That is hold water. No tank made is designed to be unlevel.More over somewhere I have read that any tank for sale is not designed to be moved with any load in it. I built all my own stands including my 180.For this stand I used 2x4 (16) on each end with no suport in middle. My stand does not "bow" nor my tank. Glass is very strong USED PROPERLY.


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## Nereus7 (Jun 13, 2012)

Tempered Glass Aquarium - YouTube

^can't remember if I saw this here or somewhere else.

Fair enough susan - N


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I thought I get carried away! But I appreciate that some people really want/need to know. Never would have tried that but do we need to say more about glass strength? Properly setting your equipment up helps it to perform properly. Back on topic;the glass in a 10g is aprox. less than 1/2 the thickness of a 65g(anyone understand where this all started).Also like to mention the pressure on bottom glass is greater than on back glass.But only the bottom is tempered.Tempering as i understand only changes glass physical properties as far as BREAKING is concerned.AWESOME video.THANKS!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

susankat said:


> All right, this is stopping now. Nereus please back off this persons threads. Please it makes it easier for me.


And to think it all ended with "Fair Enough, Susan." As if, again, _he_ did nothing wrong with the downright asinine, derailing comments in my threads.



> Clinica Terra, you are being over sensative on several aspects. Your statement to Navigator Black is way off base. You asked the question, he gave you the answer. It is up to you how you take those answers, but there is no since in posting rude remarks either. If it doesn't there won't be anyone that is going to answer your questions. Think before you speak.


I sent you a PM regarding that comment/reply I made to Navigator Black and how it tied in to the "coarse" attitude based on my dealings with Nereus. I am going to explain this again, because apparently it is not coming through in any aspect:

There's no need to inform me that one must "think before speaking;" and, at any rate, to be specific, we're not even "speaking" here. *I do think before I communicate, and I am very articulate in every aspect of my interpersonal relations.* Here is what happened, and I don't know how to make this any clearer: *Navigator Black knew I was a freelance writer by trade from a previous post in which I mentioned it. Suddenly, he replies in this thread claiming he did writing as well at one point, and then went on to state that "if someone does not know what they are writing about, they shouldn't." That is not a verbatim quote, but pretty close -- I am stating that the way I took that, based on his knowledge of my vocation, was that he was "questioning" my ability to write in the context of the conversation we were having.*

That is ALL that happened, and was my ONLY intention and query -- THAT is why I questioned what he was "saying about me." HE then went buck wild and exclaimed "I am out of your threads FOREVER!" and "This is not about YOU!" which lead to me explaining why I thought the comment was aimed specifically at me. I cannot explain this any further, and it seemingly is still not understood by parties involved even though that is PRECISELY the only reason why I questioned his "writing" comment.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiteGloveAquatics said:


> Nothing wrong with used tanks man, nothing at all, all my tanks are used less my 40g acrylic cube which I got off the back of a truck. No hobbyist or former hobbyist will sell someone a bunk tank without disclosure.


We're simply not going to do a used tank. 



> Secondly, you need a different contractor, find a PROFESSIONAL STRUCTURAL ENGINEER,not a contractor, contractors utilize engineers when developing structures. Ive seen people use cinder blocks to stablize gun safes over crawl spaces and basements, believe me this a gun safe outweighs an empty 200g glass tank and a 200g empty tank weights 660 pounds dry.....


The work is in progress already, and although we can cancel this company's "contract" at any time, according to our insurance adjusters, most of the repairs are going to be complete on the floors and ceilings by next week. We have our trusted handyman coming today to shore up and strengthen the living room ceiling, just below the spot we want to put another tank if we do it again, so the structural integrity will be improved. 



> Relax a bit man, I got alot of issues and anger management is one of them, I understand all to well what you are going thru though mine didnt happen with a fish tank but a basement window blew open when we have over 10" of rain in 3 hours, thats ALOT more then 60g, imagine 1000 square feet of living space with 6" of standing water corner to corner, even with dual sump pumps it couldnt keep up, EVERYTHING was a total loss all the way down to the concrete floor and walls, so just ease up on the tension a bit and itll be a easier thing to deal with.


I feel your pain with regard to the disaster you described with your home, but in this particular case, I don't see that I did anything wrong -- I explained, a few times now, why I stated what I stated to Navigator Black when he made the "writing" comment to him, Susan and now you. It seemed to me that he was implying that someone shouldn't write when they don't know what they're writing about -- if this was something he was saying about _himself_ I didn't take it that way...it seemed to me that he was implying something about _my_ abilities, and that's why I replied in kind, especially after his "threats" of "I'm outta your threads forever!"

Obviously, from what he is claiming, he was not referring to me with that statement. I accept his explanation, and am just explaining now to him and everyone else why I responded the way I did _initially._ 



> We are trying to help you, nav is a wealth of knowledge that you offended by being defensive over this situation which we all can understand but dont bite the hands that help you, ok brother.


I wasn't trying to bite the hand that feeds, at all -- I was merely defending myself in the situation when it occured. I am not questioning his knowledge base in this hobby/field, *but I thought he was referring to ME when he made the comment of people that shouldn't write if they don't know what they're writing about.* It's simply the way I took it, and merely ASKED him, before things got heated, what he was trying to say about me. Don't you agree that maybe HE could have approached this a different way as well, instead of going off with *"Wow -- you're too sensitive! I'm staying away from ALL your threads now! It's not about YOU!"*? I mean, he could have merely stated "Oh, no, Clinica -- I wasn't referring to you when I stated that! That's not what I meant!" and then went on to explain what he meant. I think there is a shared lack of responsibility here. 



> Now go find a very well reputed structural engineer firm and see what they can do or recommend be done. yeah it costs but it needs to be done.


We just want this to be over; we may just have our handyman complete the work at this point because things would simply go smoother. So long as the water is dry within the structure, which according to the contractors it is, we can have the handyman close up the floors and ceilings and lay the new carpet down. 



> Next time you clean a tank, use the cheapest white vinegar you can find, a few plastic putty knives for scraping and leverage and 0000 steel wool(will not mess with the glass).


Indeed, I believe I learned a lesson...the VERY hard way. However, is it your belief that the hot water cracked this tank...and not a bump from a vacuum cleaner, or an uneven floor or anything like that?



> Check out a few local fish clubs, many many times there is a high turnover of tanks, especially when someone goes from keeping display tanks everywhere to downsizing or converting to a breeding set up you can get a steal on 55g+ sized tanks.


Thanks for the tip; I don't believe there are any fish clubs near me locally, but I will consider that.



> these are USED TANKS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We don't really want to go used, at all, but I'll look at these. Thanks again bruddah.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I am unaware of a company that makes a stronger tank. Not being a genius I would imagine (and do believe) that all tanks for sale by know manufacturers would have and are tested to assure that they perform properly.That is hold water. No tank made is designed to be unlevel.More over somewhere I have read that any tank for sale is not designed to be moved with any load in it. I built all my own stands including my 180.For this stand I used 2x4 (16) on each end with no suport in middle. My stand does not "bow" nor my tank. Glass is very strong USED PROPERLY.


I see what you're saying here, bandit, but I don't think the tank itself we had was designed to be unlevel -- I think something went wrong with the integrity of our floor and this lead to maybe pressure being put on the seams of the tank, making the water load uneven thus leading to the crack...but I have no way to confirm this or know if that's what ultimately happened. 

But if it's the case that no manufacturer makes a "stronger" or more "premium" glass tank, perhaps it was merely the scalding hot water that did crack ours and would have cracked any other, as well...


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I thought I get carried away! But I appreciate that some people really want/need to know. Never would have tried that but do we need to say more about glass strength? Properly setting your equipment up helps it to perform properly. Back on topic;the glass in a 10g is aprox. less than 1/2 the thickness of a 65g(anyone understand where this all started).Also like to mention the pressure on bottom glass is greater than on back glass.But only the bottom is tempered.Tempering as i understand only changes glass physical properties as far as BREAKING is concerned.AWESOME video.THANKS!


I am beginning to learn that yes, the bottoms of tanks are tempered only -- but I thought "tempered" meant the glass was resistant to wild temperature fluxuations.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I think tempered glass is also called safety glass. This is because when broken it shatters into small non sharp pieces as uposed to shards of glass that are jagged and sharp. HELP ME LEARN MORE EVERYDAY!


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## susankat (Nov 15, 2008)

This is a forum for gods sake, get over it. There is all kinds of people in this world, and I am not able to stop everyone from posting in your threads that you feel like are assine comments. So just get over it and over look the posts you don't like. No matter what forums you go to you will have this happening. 

I am sure most people don't care that you are a freelance writer, and Navigator Black was only stating that he has wrote a lot about aquariums and fish and your question did come off with an attitude. Even though you aren't directly speaking, what your writing is basically the same thing and you are coming off with an attitude with the way your are wording things.



> And to think it all ended with "Fair Enough, Susan." As if, again, he did nothing wrong with the downright asinine, derailing comments in my threads.


His comments weren't directly derailing your threads, His comments started when your attitude towards him also became rude so I would say fair enough myself. He was trying to put a little laughter in a bad situation and yes most people do appreciate it but apparently you don't enjoy a little light at the end of the tunnel. So be it. But with your attitude that has been shown in these threads, you basically don't care if there is a little lightheartedness to come your way. You just want to complain.

Anymore of this and I will lock these threads.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I think tempered glass is also called safety glass. This is because when broken it shatters into small non sharp pieces as uposed to shards of glass that are jagged and sharp. HELP ME LEARN MORE EVERYDAY!


I see; I thought it also had something to do with temperature stability as well.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

susankat said:


> This is a forum for gods sake, get over it. There is all kinds of people in this world, and I am not able to stop everyone from posting in your threads that you feel like are assine comments. So just get over it and over look the posts you don't like. No matter what forums you go to you will have this happening.


Wow. Truly incredible...and what a turn of heart. I just lost my house to something in the range of $70K worth of water damage, and _I'm_ getting attacked here from all sides and being told to "get over it"? Correct me if I am wrong, but as moderators, aren't you supposed to be stopping and keeping in line these "people" who you say are part of "all kinds of people in this world" when they become out of control? 

I will address this below in more detail, but let's begin with the "asinine comments" citation -- originally, you clearly were on my side with regard to what he was doing in my threads stating "STOP DERAILING THIS MEMBER'S THREADS because to HIM it is SERIOUS." It was CLEAR you could see what he was doing -- these were not "off the cuff," harmless and lighthearted comments to add some humor to the situation as you claim below. The comments were stupid and simply uncalled for...as if he was high or something when typing them. What is the deal with THAT? Those comments of "Nereus HIIIIIIGHHHH....and looooow loooooow loooooww..." didn't seem ASININE to you? Come on... 



> I am sure most people don't care that you are a freelance writer, and Navigator Black was only stating that he has wrote a lot about aquariums and fish and your question did come off with an attitude.


Oh boy...where to begin with this one...

WHY would you be so blatantly rude and obnoxious by stating "I am sure most people don't care that you're a freelance writer"? What is up with THAT kind of comment? I wasn't TRYING to toot my own horn AT ALL, regardless of what you or Navigator think -- so let me state this again, because it's seemingly not getting through: *I WAS NOT QUESTIONING HIS KNOWLEDGE OF AQUARIA OR THE FACT THAT HE HAD WRITTEN ABOUT IT. I THOUGHT he was referring to ME when he stated "some people shouldn't be writing if they don't know what they're writing about" and THAT IS WHY I defended myself by simply ASKING HIM what he was trying to say about me.* If he was referring to himself, I did not take it that way -- but HE did not need to react the way HE did to my question, either. My question came off with an "attitude"? All I asked was WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO IMPLY ABOUT ME. 



> Even though you aren't directly speaking, what your writing is basically the same thing and you are coming off with an attitude with the way your are wording things.


That's simply not true, but I can see self-defense is being twisted here to mean "attitude." If you knew me PERSONALLY, you would know I am a human being far from harboring an attitude. 



> His comments weren't directly derailing your threads, His comments started when your attitude towards him also became rude so I would say fair enough myself.


*WHAT???!!!!* They weren't DERAILING the threads?? YOU admitted this YOURSELF a few times in these threads -- my attitude became rude towards him? He was coming in here and *specifically leaving meaningless, empty comments like "Nereus hiiiiiigh.....looooow..." and "why are you still not sleeping" and nonsense like that.* I specifically reported him multiple times to you with regard to this, per board policy, and it was even addressed personally by you. Then, I singled out what I knew he was doing by comments like "What HE said" in which he was just fueling the fire by referring to a comment I would make about him, then passing it off like it WASN'T him. I SINGLED these posts out to you. 



> He was trying to put a little laughter in a bad situation and yes most people do appreciate it but apparently you don't enjoy a little light at the end of the tunnel. So be it. But with your attitude that has been shown in these threads, you basically don't care if there is a little lightheartedness to come your way. You just want to complain.


I want to COMPLAIN? You think living in a hotel for days now, coming home to feed my sick dog who has seizures and change my 10 gallon's water and feed the fish in the midst of LOSING OUR HOME to a flood from a tank and discussing it here for ideas on how to cope is COMPLAINING?? Wow. Our life savings is pretty much GONE after the out of pocket expenses we incurred from this, and you're saying I just want to COMPLAIN? Absolutely not true.

Second -- I am NOT going to discuss this any further with you regarding this Nereus. He KNOWS what he did, and initially you were on my side because you could see his comments were derailing and simply way off topic -- it had nothing to do with making me see light at the end of the tunnel; when someone says "Nereus HIIIIIIIIIIIIIGH.....Nereus LOOOOOOW" and won't answer questions I put to him when I ask him "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?" and he replies with "What are YOU talking about" just to bait me and keep this nonsense going, THAT IS DERAILING.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I came here to learn how to better care for my fish.WHAT ARE YOU HERE FOR?


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I came here to learn how to better care for my fish.WHAT ARE YOU HERE FOR?


Now _you're_ starting with me, bandit? I have no ill-will towards you, at all...what's the problem?

I come here with questions about tank maintenance, fish illness and disaster advice such as for what we're going through now (a cracked 60 gallon tank) -- and to also learn from much more experienced fishkeepers how to better enjoy the hobby and be more successful in it. I admitted that I was 100 percent wrong for not heeding the advice put forth to me by members like Navigator Black in terms of not using scalding hot water in/on my tank; what is being discussed here above is a situation that has rampaged way out of control over a member who seems to like to come into these threads and leave strange, cryptic, off-topic replies and another who typed something regarding my vocation which was not clearly dictated in my opinion and which lead to my misunderstanding of his meaning. 

I appreciate the discussions you and I have been having about the tempered glass, and hopefully can learn alot about that.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Guys and Gals,

Can we please just get back on topic here so I can figure out where we stand once we can move back into our house? We're displaced right now in a hotel while the construction is being done, and I'd like to know what my next step should be in picking a new tank if we do a setup again...

Thank you,
C. Terra


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm not starting with you. I apologize if you feel that way. You certainly are in a hard spot. A solid floor would be the first step. Your disaster not considered ,to be succesful in fish keeping one should be prepared to spend more caring for than purchasing. The tank itself is THE CHEAPEST part of the show. I would not buy used , mostly because there will probably be a scratch or something that will linger longer than the cost difference.I do use used tanks to raise my fry and breeding.On those tanks a scratch orwhatever have no effect on the results I'm looking for, but if you are going to look at your tank(show tank) buy new and keep decorations away from front so you don't scratch.I don't care what anybody does for a living, unless I am hirring them for a task or searching info.At this forum what you do is share a similar interest with me regerdless of career(marine biologist you are the exception).I dig fish. I think you do to? Good enough for me!
I hope your dog is ok and not alone all day. When we get animals we try to realize how important we are to them(company, food,care and ultimately survival). Like anything in life; there's always more to it than many thought.I wish you and yours luck.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> I'm not starting with you. I apologize if you feel that way. You certainly are in a hard spot.


I only mentioned that, sir, because you stated "WHAT ARE YOU HERE FOR???" and it seemed like you were "yelling" at me for something. If I misunderstood, my apologies; I just wanted you to know where I was coming from. 



> A solid floor would be the first step. Your disaster not considered ,to be succesful in fish keeping one should be prepared to spend more caring for than purchasing. The tank itself is THE CHEAPEST part of the show.


We are indeed having our handyman come by today to strengthen up the foundation where the tank was, while our ceilings are still open. 



> I would not buy used , mostly because there will probably be a scratch or something that will linger longer than the cost difference.I do use used tanks to raise my fry and breeding.On those tanks a scratch orwhatever have no effect on the results I'm looking for, but if you are going to look at your tank(show tank) buy new and keep decorations away from front so you don't scratch.


I agree about the used factor -- we would only be buying new. Let me ask this about scratching: When pouring heavy buckets of substrate/gravel in for the first time, should care be taken to pour it gently so it doesn't damage the bottom glass? Is there ANYTHING I can do to firm up the bottom glass of the tank from inside OR out to prevent cracks? Can some sort of styrofoam "bed" be used? 



> I don't care what anybody does for a living, unless I am hirring them for a task or searching info.At this forum what you do is share a similar interest with me regerdless of career(marine biologist you are the exception).I dig fish. I think you do to? Good enough for me!


I see what you're saying; it's just that everything with regard to these references of vocation/occupation were beginning to sound a bit off-putting and ill-mannered. I, personally, would never say "I don't care what you do for a living..." as everyone's vocation and occupation impresses and intrigues me. 



> I hope your dog is ok and not alone all day. When we get animals we try to realize how important we are to them(company, food,care and ultimately survival). Like anything in life; there's always more to it than many thought.I wish you and yours luck.


Thank you -- oh, no, of course he is not alone all day. I spend all day with him in the house to do my work and stay with the contractors/workers and to administer his 17 pills per day PLUS diabetes injections. At night, we retire to the hotel, but we are looking into a place that takes animals.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

no re-inforcement should be necessary. Metal stands have no structural support in the middle, just a spreader(piece the length of stand) to keep the legs in proper position.Gravel should be rinsed and then placed in tank. Gently pouring it in should be acceptable( with the exception of large rocks or stones). Personal issues aside , did you watch video posted Nereus7?The glas on a 10g tank is aprox1/8 of an inch. anything over 30g probably is 1/4 of an inch, getting thicker after 50g. My 180 glass is aprox1/2 of an inch. watc the video,buy new and never rush to get it done. Getting things right is always more important than getting things fast.Besides fixing always eats up time savings.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

coralbandit said:


> no re-inforcement should be necessary.


Do you mean for the _tank_ or the _floor_ it will sit on?



> Metal stands have no structural support in the middle, just a spreader(piece the length of stand) to keep the legs in proper position.


So, you're saying a syrofoam "bed" or brace of some kind is not necessary? 



> Gravel should be rinsed and then placed in tank.


Yes. That part I know. 



> Gently pouring it in should be acceptable( with the exception of large rocks or stones).


But not "tossing" it in quickly out of the bucket, right?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

the no additional support was in reference to the aquarium stand. It sounds like your floor needs bracing. If your ceiling is really removed then you should be able to see the framing that makes your floor. Along with the joist(wood horizontally installed) you may be able to see the framing of your walls. They (unless non-load bearing) should be what holds up your floor.Since without ending up with lower ceiling no one can use large than what is already installed lumber, first guess says double up EVERY joist, and triple where tank goes(thats one new board on each side of existing). Sounds simple enough( maybe not) but the hard part will be dealing with electric wiring,plumbing, and heating that may already be in place. They need to be disconnected,wood put in, then reconnected.As for the gravel;if you rinse it in a 5g bucket use something that fits in your hand to scoop from bucket to tank.If you rinse in a strainer(pasta like)dump it in. The bottom of your tank (black band,oak trim ...) should be put on a strong flat, smooth surface.Many times I have leveled the empty tank only to find it "settled"differently.Now I level fill with gravel then water that is not of any cost and level again. I mean I check after filling and if it's not level, know how much adjustment is necessary drain,adjust and fill again. There is no hurry .Most instructions on obtaining fine finishes of various products say; step1,2,3,4 then repeat if necessary.Don't rush the set up of what you hope to enjoy for years.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Ok, you are near LA you have a butt-ton of clubs near you Im not familar with their names but I know of quite a few and SoCal is a tropical fish hobbyists haven, just keep looking, hopefully someone from your area chimes in with something.

I know you are not going used but think of this, nearly 60% of all tank listed used are there because a divorce is adamantly approaching. You also can find brand new ones listed as used due to private sales. 
ATM in vegas makes acrylic tanks and sell standard sizes, vegas is only an 8 hour drive from LA.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Okay, I said I wouldn't weigh in again, but I see poor Susan in a bad situation - so - Clinica - I don't know your name. This is of interest because that means I don't know your work. So unless I am crazy, (debatable) I won't take shots at your work. You could be a writer whose work I seek every time I see your byline. Or, I may not have read you yet. Either way, here, you are an anonymous fish-person and I was using an impersonal "you" to express my philosophy to my own work. When Bob Dylan said "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows", he was not directly addressing me. I intended no shot at you, and figure this misunderstanding is due to the stress of your current situation.

I'd suggest we agree we may never bond, but move on. I know you are very justifiably stressed with all these events.

I'd also suggest you consider a flat piece of 3/4 wood slightly wider and longer than your tank, spanning at least two floor beams. It would have to be made to look good, and then placed under your stand to spread the weight. Sort of like plywood, but made to look better than that. How depends on your decor, your floor, etc. The old trick I used in my wobbly old apartments was a sheet of plywood on the floor under my tank. It stabilized a floor beautifully. It's just not beautiful. 

Tempered tanks are, as you say, just the bottom. The standing glass is untempered as many aquarists like to drill the glass for advanced filtration systems, and tempered glass shatters when drilled. For this reason, not all tank bottoms are tempered, as many people like to run a stand pipe up through the bottom, and there's a market for tanks that allow that. You have to go manufacturer by manufacturer. I have both types here, and both are durable.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Clinica, I removed your signature because it was over the allowed size. If you wish to add another please be mindful of the rules. Thanks


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A lot of churn on this subject. 

I may be the odd one out, but I don't necessarily believe hot water "weakens" tanks. If your tank glass was cold and you hit it with hot water it would have cracked right then. Hard to prove one way or the other when the bottom line is, your tank did have a crack in it.

I'm also sort of on the fence about the stand and where it sits. For your size tank I think that as long as the tank sat squarely on the stand, no gaps between stand and tank, then the bottom surface that the stand sits on is less suspect. Regardless of the floor surface, the tank would still be flush against the stand. So how could the floor make that big of a difference? It would have to be so much of a difference that your tank would have been way off level as it sat for it to cause damage. I have 2-125g tanks and neither sits level. Neither does my 75g. But....they all sit perfectly on their stands.

Just my thoughts.

For a new tank I'd get Aqueon.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Jrman, if I were you id level the stand as the tank will sit flush on it still as well as a thin 1/4" piece of foamboard insulation, this takes up the slight differences and compresses to the tanks weight and size. An unlevel tank puts more pressure on 3 parts of the tank and not so much on the other side, this will cause seam splits and if the glass is weak it will split the glass.

However major tank manufacturers pull one of a dozen off the line to QC it, they really do not go back to all of them in a bad run, just from the point of QC forward.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The problem is with carpet. All of my tanks have a slight lean toward the back. Normal carpet tapers off as you get closer to a wall. None have suffered because of it and it is only about a half inch difference to include some slight side to side. It is hard to level a tank on carper....things change when weight adds in.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

see now im wondering if we need to level ours. its been sitting happy for 6 months and its not level. when the water is as full as we can make it, from 3'5" to the other end of the tank its 1/2 an inch lower than at 3'5" mark. the tanks 4' long....i think im being confusing...ill just take pictures!!


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Ben, you can level it just use a 1/2" shim if you are 1/2" off, besides you want to be around 6" off the wall especially on carpet to accomidate for the padding and tack strips.

I use ceramic tiles 12"x12"as a base then shim from there. anything more then an 8th or 3 will eventually cause issues, the seams weaken with the increased pressure and start to seperate.

Im just stating sometimes its better to be safe then sorry. If that weight isnt distributed correctly you will have fails in the product.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

None of my tanks sit level either. On carpet. To add to the fire, lfs has 200+ gallon tank, supported by just the ends. (The front/back spans of the tank do not touch the stand except for the left/right ends.)


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

What I have been told by people with longer experience with large tanks is that you are fine with a slight unevenness until you move. Then if the floor is uneven differently, you are potentially in trouble. I haven't experimented with that, as prior to living in my current house, I had small tanks. I've chosen to take their word for it.
My tanks are as even as I can get them (I've worked at it), but there are slight tilts with my slightly uneven basement floor.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

Until you move it or the earth does...... there was a video a while back of a HUGE tank breaking open during an earthquake , not sure how level but I am assuming it was spot on due to the structure it was in(business establishments are built with self leveling concrete and are "polished" to insure their levelness).


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I could fix mine, but they have been that way for 2yrs now and they've been through a 4.something earthquake and nothing happened. Water splashed out of my tank, but no cracking, shifting, or otherwise.


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

If it doesnt split, awesome, when you go to set up a new tank, build a solid foundation so the house will fall apart before the tank splits lol


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> A lot of churn on this subject.
> 
> I may be the odd one out, but I don't necessarily believe hot water "weakens" tanks. If your tank glass was cold and you hit it with hot water it would have cracked right then. Hard to prove one way or the other when the bottom line is, your tank did have a crack in it.


Thanks jr.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; our last days have been spent running around trying to pick carpet, tile, etc. for the remodel that is supposed to go into effect today. 

The problem with the tank theory above is this: I originally poured scalding hot water directly into the bare empty tank to sterilize it from the previous bacterial infection. I then dosed it with household chemicals (all of this NOT recommended, I am aware, but bear with me here for a moment) and splashed MORE scalding water into it, swooshing it around the glass surfaces until finally doing a drain and letting it air out for a bit. THEN, I began putting the rinsed new gravel in until ultimately filling the tank with coolish tap water.

Given this -- and the fact that it wasn't cold water ON TOP OF hot water (some time had passed) AND that it didn't happen the way you subscribe above, that COLD water had first been put in AND THEN hot -- is it remotely possible that the tank still could have cracked from this? 



> I'm also sort of on the fence about the stand and where it sits. For your size tank I think that as long as the tank sat squarely on the stand, no gaps between stand and tank, then the bottom surface that the stand sits on is less suspect. Regardless of the floor surface, the tank would still be flush against the stand. So how could the floor make that big of a difference? It would have to be so much of a difference that your tank would have been way off level as it sat for it to cause damage. I have 2-125g tanks and neither sits level. Neither does my 75g. But....they all sit perfectly on their stands.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


The thing with the stand is a complete mystery to me -- I just emptied the tank of all its gravel because we have contractors and foremen up in that room right now doing the new drywall install, and it seems to me that the crack didn't originate (after looking at the crack area closely and with no gravel or decor in the tank) at the bottom. That said, the stand the tank stood on was sold to us by the pet shop we ordered the tank and stand from; it was a black oak stand with full matching canopy, and I just assumed the stand was "right" or made for this aquarium...it is remotely possible the tank wasn't sitting 100 percent on this stand, and it was kind of "hollow" towards the center of it, with the tank kind of sitting on all four solid corners of this black oak piece...

Here's another factor I didn't think of until now: We had a 10" subwoofer as part of the home theater system in the living room below where the tank was situated, and during heavy bass passages in high octane action films and if our volume was up pretty high (but never "insanely" high), we would get nasty vibrations and rattles from the bass. I'm wondering if the bass waves traveled up the walls of the house (seemingly poorly made) and were enough to weaken the glass of the tank -- this sounds like a long shot, but I'm now considering it as a factor. 



> For a new tank I'd get Aqueon.


Thanks; it seems many are recommending them, even when they were All Glass. I have had good experiences with their QuietFlow filters, so I think we'll try to hunt an Aqueon down.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I would believe a manufacture defect before I would anything you did caused it. However, if you mean you boiled the water when you say scolding maybe that is it. Just hot water from your water heater would seem impossible unless you were going between extremes like I mentioned. Most people keep their water heaters somewhere close to 160F.

These tanks are pretty darn tough.


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

No -- I didn't actually BOIL the water when I cleaned the tank; what I did was make the faucet as hot as the water would go, and poured that into a bucket and then into the tank. The water WAS smoking, though, so it was pretty hot...


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## tmshck122 (Oct 4, 2012)

If my tank leaked or cracked, I'd probably cry like a little girl on my soggy carpet.


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## Brian757 (Sep 24, 2012)

I would get a Deep Blue acrylic tank. I like their tanks a lot and acrylic is lighter which would help your weak flooring. Also, their tougher than glass, although they collect scratches like their going out of style. I don't know the way your 60GAL was built but I just bought a 25 year old tank and stripped it of all of its caulking. I went and bought Marineland caulking and redid the whole tank just for piece of mind. What I am getting at is to do everything in your power to reduce the risk of tank stress. Good luck and hopefully you fix your waterlogged home!


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## ClinicaTerra (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you, Brian.

We actually haven't even gotten a new tank as of yet to replace the 60; all the fish are still in a 10 gallon...I am awaiting funds to afford a new setup.


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