# Questions about the 'beaslbob' method.



## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I was about to post under a different thread but I thought it was about time I start my own instead of hijacking someone else's again. Some of the beaslbob ideas are along the idea of what has seemed common sense to me for a long time (allthough I have yet to do a full beaslbob build) I still have questions and lingering reservations. Anyone else who has questions or thoughts is welcome to join in and I'm hoping bob doesn't mind helping out.

So the short version of a beaslbob build is (please correct me if I get anything wrong): Tank with suitable lighting. 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pro choice select (or aquarium gravel). Mix of fast and slow growing plants. No filter, no water changes. No cycling time needed. The idea is that the plants do all the filtering and keep the tank stable.

So my first question is about water changes. Do you really think that no water changes ever is the best way to go or do you think occasional small water changes are better?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> I was about to post under a different thread but I thought it was about time I start my own instead of hijacking someone else's again. Some of the beaslbob ideas are along the idea of what has seemed common sense to me for a long time (allthough I have yet to do a full beaslebob build) I still have questions and lingering reservations. Anyone else who has questions or thoughts is welcome to join in and I'm hoping bob doesn't mind helping out.
> 
> So the short version of a beaslbob build is (please correct me if I get anything wrong): Tank with suitable lighting. 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pro choice select (or aquarium gravel). Mix of fast and slow growing plants. No filter, no water changes. No cycling time needed. The idea is that the plants do all the filtering and keep the tank stable.
> 
> So my first question is about water changes. Do you really think that no water changes ever is the best way to go or do you think occasional small water changes are better?


ok what you guys think?


Well gals too!


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Oh H may as well answer. *old dude

Back in school to understand some concept I would study the extremes.

In this case one extreme is a totally closed system. Not only no water changes but the tank (container) is totally sealed with no other inputs other then light.

the other extreme is a totally open system like a pond where a stream constantly flows through the pond.

Can both work. absolutely!

But what happens with the water?

In the closed system the water reaches some environment and basically stays there.

By contrast the totally open system is totally dependant on the input water from the stream. Should some polution happen up stream it is reflected in the pond. as are seasonial variations and so on.

By doing water changes in our tanks were are maintaining an environment that is a mix of the two extremes.

If there are no changes in the tank the tank will over time reflect the properties of the input water if that water is constant. Lower water change levels the longer the tank takes to reflect the input water.

If there are tanks changes in like say nitrates then the tank will reflect those changes as moderated by the water change level. a 1/4 water change will result in 4 times the tank changes between water changes. Then down to 3 times and back up to 4 times before the next water change. 1/3 3 times down to 2 up to 3. 1/10 10 times down to 9 up to 10. and so on plus the input water values.

What I do with plants is maintain nitrates, phosphates, carbon dioxide, oxygen, and reduce toxins with plants. The peat moss maintains hardness (Kh and gh). Then adjust light and feeding so the tank remains in balance. And, of course, avoid adding toxins and shocking the environment.

In other words doing less is best for the tank.

my .02


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## dirtydutch4x (Jun 16, 2009)

to be honest the first time I read about Bob's build was around a year ago and I was skeptical but thought what the hay and gave it a shot. the end result for me was a beautiful 20 long that flourished with plant life and was the happiest my fish(the ones homed there) seemed to ever be. I moved to Florida and am in the process of starting another now. the one thing I was worried about was no water changes but I stuck to the plan and it worked out wonderfully. The best success Ive had with my GBR's was in that tank and others told me they would not like the conditions, they were wrong. I had 3 GBR's, male and female betta's, and various darters, guppy's and minnows. top off here anf there and it was fine. on top of that no CO2 or root tabs and plants thrived with proper lighting and consistent temps.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I still have the filter in my tank(for now) and also have added a DIY CO2 system (again, for now). I decided to add a few plants in my beaslbob substrate and am planing on the rest of the plants to fill the tank being 'children' of these 'parent' plants. At that point I am going to remove both. I have not made any water changes yet and I checked my nitrates etc about a week ago and nothing was off 0 0 and 5. PH is fine. I have been replacing evaporated water only. Plants are growing good-even without the CO2 it's awesome!! Keep in mind, suctioning the water out of a heavily planted aquarium would be tricky too-so this idea works very well for the fish,the keeper and the plants.


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## mk4gti (Jun 15, 2010)

What about a filter with no media in it just for water movement?


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Well, I had a sort of interruption in my system. I was trucking along with the plain using a Betta as my first fish. Then in my 30G I had a problem with a mollie, and needed to treat it. In the 30G I'd also just added some red cherry shrimp, which are rumored to be sensitive to malachite green. The short of it: I moved the betta back to the 30G and the shrimp to the 10G (beaslbob build) and treated the 30G. My problem is I tested the 10G and the readings aren't so great (anacharis isn't in the mix yet), 4ppm ammonia, 0.25 ppm nitrite and 40 ppm nitrate. So, I did do a water change. 

I think if I kept it up in the normal way I'd have had little trouble. I also started with much less plantlife than I preferred.. some of it was coming in the mail. I also blame the planting some more stuff later for keeping some of the cloudiness in the tank. It is still not 100% clear after about a week.

So far nothing has died. (Crossing my fingers!)

I would say running a small filter for water movement wouldn't be too bad, though I think the fish like having less water-flow. It might give you a better bio-filter though, having some bio-filter media in there.

This sounds more like an admission of failing to stick to the build's principals than anything else, reading back over it. I'm going to be curious as to weather a fully stabilized beaslbob build makes for a good shrimp tank, given the shrimp's preferences for clean water.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks bob (and everyone else), I get the idea behind not doing water changes and it seems sound for the most part, but do you really not do any water changes ever or do you think some small ones are still a good idea? My fear would be that a tank is not really a closed system. By regularly adding food and topping up water without any water changes trace toxins etc could eventually build up. On the other side regularly pruning plants is an important part of the tank maintenance so a considerable amount of matter is being removed from the tank, might this not eventually deplete essential minerals etc? I'm not being argumentative, just asking with a view to getting a better understanding..


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## dirtydutch4x (Jun 16, 2009)

I had mine running for about 5 months before my move and only topped it off when needed and lost no life from that tank. it is hard to resist because of what we know as far as regular maintenance but I fought the urges and it worked very well for me. just my opinion


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

Well, it's going to be your tank so if you want to do them you can. Me personally, can't wait to have the tank fully functional by itself. Think of all the time saved by not having to do maintenance on the tank!!! I have 5 tanks at the moment (10 gal, 15, gal, 35 gal and 2 55's) the 10 is my beaslbob in the making, 15 is coming next with the growth from the 10 gal and probably some choice plants from ebay then at least one of the 55's (35 is my daughters). I want a spiny nosed eel in my other 55 so I'm not sure if the plants will work with him there. That's a lot of extra crap on my electricity bill. But once the tanks take care of themselves then those things will all be off the bill.....and I will then be able to convince my husband that we can get another tank (or 2 or 3 LOL).

If you want to experiment around with it, and have some disposable income, get 2 10gal tanks and beaslbob them. One with a filter and water changes and one without. That would make for a great experiment and thread on here. Put the same plants in them and the same species and number of fish and see how it goes.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Amie - your next tank should be a 90 or 125gal. You could be the owner of the biggest beaslbob build on the site.

So far most have done it with smaller tanks. I'd love someone with a 75gal or above to take the plunge on the idea. Not that I'm skeptical. I just like the whole idea of it. I have 3 larger tanks, but those tanks have way too much $ invested in the typical way to give it a try.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> Thanks bob (and everyone else), I get the idea behind not doing water changes and it seems sound for the most part, but do you really not do any water changes ever or do you think some small ones are still a good idea? My fear would be that a tank is not really a closed system. By regularly adding food and topping up water without any water changes trace toxins etc could eventually build up. On the other side regularly pruning plants is an important part of the tank maintenance so a considerable amount of matter is being removed from the tank, might this not eventually deplete essential minerals etc? I'm not being argumentative, just asking with a view to getting a better understanding..


Actually you do have a valid point. With just a sand substrate kh and gh do rise but with peat moss kh and gh stay constant for years. with guppies and most fish that doesn't seem to matter. But for neon tetras I did have problems with the sand only. With peat moss they lived for years.

So the peat moss helped balance out the system kh and gh wise.

Some other minerals may be depleted over time. But I have had fish live for years so it doesn't seem to be too big a problem.

my .02


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I would LOVE to own the first beaslbob monster size tank!!!!.........Might land me in divorce court but what the hell!! When it comes to fish or men it's a no brainer LMAO!!!! 

Seriously, maybe down the road but for now I'm going to slowly plant the ones that I have. I'm hoping to get more and bigger tanks later and pretty much all or all of them are going to be done this way eventually.


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## Auban (Aug 8, 2010)

i know my tank doesnt qualify as a "beaselbob" build, as i run two external filters and i inject Co2, but i only do water changes every 6 months. the plants in my tanks take care of most of the ammonia and nitrates, even in my 75 gallon with its 80 or so fish. food goes in, i top off on water once a week, and plant clippings come out every 3 days. the only reason i do water changes is because there really isnt anything out there besides certain species of trees that can take up NaCl, salt. after a while of feeding more and more food, adding more and more water for top-offs, the salinity increases to the point that it starts to impede plant growth. when i was little, i used to run tanks with just a light, mainly because i couldnt afford to buy filters. i never had a problem in tanks with plants, so i know the system works. i would, however, do water changes every once in a while. just let a beaslebob build run for a year or so then do a 50% water change, you will see the difference in plant growth.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

This input is all really interesting. I wouldn't have a problem with leaving a tank like this for 5 months or so with out a water change. But the main tank I have now has been in the same spot for about 5 years without ever being torn down and that feels like too long without a water change. On the whole I think I'd be more comfortable on doing a water change every couple of months, because why leave it so long that it starts to be a problem? On the other hand I can see the point of the 'if it don't break don't fix it' view also. Seeing as water changes are a pain it would be nice...


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Just sitting and thinking about it, it would seem to me that if a tank has gone a long period without the "need" for a water change, that doing a water change would throw off the balance the tank has attained. Sort of like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## chrispeck (Oct 24, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Amie - your next tank should be a 90 or 125gal. You could be the owner of the biggest beaslbob build on the site.
> 
> So far most have done it with smaller tanks. I'd love someone with a 75gal or above to take the plunge on the idea. Not that I'm skeptical. I just like the whole idea of it. I have 3 larger tanks, but those tanks have way too much $ invested in the typical way to give it a try.


the 185 gallon tank im building is fixin' to be a beaslebobish build. lots of plants, only biological filtering, and as few water changes as necessary.i'm going to use the floor dry instead of pro choice select though. I just have to finish building the tank.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I have another question: Is there any alternative to peat moss? I can't find it for sale and I am beginning to think they don't sell it here.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I've heard of some people using topsoil but I don't think it gives the same nutrients.

Where are you looking?? Fish stores won't have it. It would be at a gardening store or in the plants department at Walmart or a home depot type of store.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Been to lots of Garden centers, they mostly sell coco fiber stuff here instead. I'm leaning tward mineralised top soil but beaslbob recomends the peat moss to keep ph etc from getting too high.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> Been to lots of Garden centers, they mostly sell coco fiber stuff here instead. I'm leaning tward mineralised top soil but beaslbob recomends the peat moss to keep ph etc from getting too high.


Just to get really really pickey here it actually is not preventing pH from getting high but rather kh and gh (hardness). Without the peat moss kh rose to over 20 degrees and gh over 30 degrees. With peat moss the kh stayed at 4 degrees and gh at 9 degrees for over 2 years and neon tetra thrived.

So the peat moss must be doing some kind of buffering to prevent buildup of carbonate and/or +ions like calcium/magnesium and so on.

pH however rose to 8.4-8.8 with or without peat moss in the API test kit. Indicating an extremely low carbon dioxide level. I speculate that the plants were sucking out the carbon dioxide such that the tank became a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen every 24 hour period.

Even with those high pH levels fish that are reported to need low pH water thrived for years. Like hacetfish and neon tetras.

But then my tanks also have no mechanical circulation which may limit the air gas interchange.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

How about a 4th layer? Add a layer of topsoil? Been reading a lot of articles lately that talk about using topsoil in the substrate.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> How about a 4th layer? Add a layer of topsoil? Been reading a lot of articles lately that talk about using topsoil in the substrate.


Actually from the diana walstad ecology of the planted aquarium (or something like that) she does use top soil.

So yes you can. 

IME I just had more algae problems using peat moss in the small bags that advertized 90 days (or so) of nutrients added.

Some also have used soilmaster select charcoal which was a guey dark mud. That is no longer available but john deere landscaping has something called something like turface which is a substute. My experience in a small test 1g jar was the water clouded up and required a week+ of lights out to clear. From that point on it did fine. When I torn down the test 2 years later the substrate was not only full of roots but also the guey gumbo mess. It was mixed with peat moss also.

So nothing is cast in stone on any of the substrate items. Just what worked for me and was very inexpensive.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Its ashame that they don't make the peat plates anymore that was made for planted aquariums.


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

After a little research, it seems the people trying to do similar approaches using all sorts of substrates.. everything from dirt from the backyard to "miracle-gro organic choice" soil to bare gravel in a long-established tank (read: lots of fish poop buried in there). I'd say go wild and try something a little different. I didn't find plain peat moss.. I wound up with miracle-gro laced peat moss. So far (few weeks now i think?) no problems.. Plants are doing fine, and the shrimp in there are having no issues. 

One thing I would recommend is making sure you plant very heavily. I planted in stages, and wish I'd had a big load of plants right away.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Just to get really really pickey here it actually is not preventing pH from getting high but rather kh and gh (hardness). Without the peat moss kh rose to over 20 degrees and gh over 30 degrees. With peat moss the kh stayed at 4 degrees and gh at 9 degrees for over 2 years and neon tetra thrived.


Yea, thanks my mistake.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

mfgann said:


> After a little research, it seems the people trying to do similar approaches using all sorts of substrates.. everything from dirt from the backyard to "miracle-gro organic choice" soil to bare gravel in a long-established tank (read: lots of fish poop buried in there). I'd say go wild and try something a little different. I didn't find plain peat moss.. I wound up with miracle-gro laced peat moss. So far (few weeks now i think?) no problems.. Plants are doing fine, and the shrimp in there are having no issues.
> 
> One thing I would recommend is making sure you plant very heavily. I planted in stages, and wish* I'd had a big load of plants right away*.


Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just puting in a couple of slow growing plants will not balance out and stabilize the system.

that said I did have a 20g that didn't have a total jungle look yet still did very well.

I am surprized you couldn't find peat moss bales here at home depot. Perhaps it's just a spring thing.

my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> I amd surprized you couldn't find peat moss bales here at home depot. Perhaps it's just a spring thing.
> 
> my .02


I'm in Portugal, some things are harder to find.

I think I'm going to go with mineralized topsoil as I have not found peat moss and people seem to have had good results with it.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> I'm in Portugal, some things are harder to find.
> 
> I think I'm going to go with mineralized topsoil as I have not found peat moss and people seem to have had good results with it.


understand

I have heard mineralized topsoil is good also.

thread with link to diy:

http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/mineralized-soil-substrate-4429.html

my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks, I had seen that thread, it was helpful. Dolomite is recomended to keep soil from getting too acid and add minerals for the plants, that seems like the opposite of useing peat moss, any thoughts? The ph, gh, kh of my tap water are all high.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> Thanks, I had seen that thread, it was helpful. Dolomite is recomended to keep soil from getting too acid and add minerals for the plants, that seems like the opposite of useing peat moss, any thoughts? The ph, gh, kh of my tap water are all high.


You are correct about the dolomite and potash.

But my experience is that the pH in my tanks rise to 8.4-8.8 anyway.

they specifically avoid peat moss but other then that I was amazed by many similarities. Like the layered approach. and avoiding topsoil with added nutrients. And the use of clay also. (pc select is a fired clay for instance and the old soil master select is a clay also.)

Perhaps this is what I would have come up with given a few more experiments and years. Perhaps "my" method just mineralizes the stuff in tank.

Or perhaps the overarching idea of the heavily planted tank is what is important.

It does seem to be inexpensive but does require a lot of work.

So perhaps I am just lazy. I like the idea of a tank setup in a few hours. *old dude

my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm wondering if I already have high gh, prehaps I souldn't add dolmite as well. 

From what I can see the difference between soil straight out of the garden and mineralised soil is mostly that you don't get the same algae bloom in the start. Whatever substrate I think the idea behind it is more or less the same.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> I'm wondering if I already have high gh, prehaps I souldn't add dolmite as well.
> 
> From what I can see the difference between soil straight out of the garden and mineralised soil is mostly that you don't get the same algae bloom in the start. Whatever substrate I think the idea behind it is more or less the same.


I got the lot of algae also with peatmoss + added fertz.

FWIW dolomite is limestone with magnesium carbonate in it as well as the calcium carbonate. So that could be why. But both do not add calcium or magnesium above a high ph (over 8). But will add calcium, magnesium, and carbonate below that pH value. Perhaps the substrate has a lower pH at the bottom so it feeds those things to the substrate. And also helps fighting acids of low pH as well.

but then with "my" methods pH rises to above 8.4 (api high range test kit) anyway so that doesn't apply. (pH rises with the plants sucking out co2).

my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I read some where that the soil on the bottom can get too acid for the plants to thrive, so I guess it helps with that.


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## Lei (Dec 24, 2010)

I am setting up 2 new tanks and am fascinated by this method. I have a 35 gallon (I think) planted angel tank. It has a hang on the back filter that I do not clean or change the medium and never did even when I got it used. No carbon and a bag of peat added. I did used to vacuum the tank and do water changes. 

Due to a family crisis I had less and less time for the tank so I messed with the water less and less. My plants I had planted in little clay pots with peat and sand. Since I was setting up a bigger tank I would pick up plants when I saw a good deal, but had no time to set up the other tank so there are quite a few plants "stored" in there. 

Water changes were a joke. (this is the only place I will admit they were maybe 10% bi-weekly?) I do care about my fish so I WAS testing the water to make sure it was safe, but I wondered why do this bucket hauling when my nitrite/nitrates are fine? So, I did less and less. This is where I came across a very odd fact. As I did less and less, my water got better and better. N/N are always 0/0, my ph is steady 7ish. My water is hard but that isn't new and the KH has fallen slowly but steadily as the tank became more planted.

That is what had me researching and lead me here.

I was told by an old fish guy never to change your filter stuff ..just leave it alone. Since he had a sealed fluval for over 5 yrs (which he in turn had bought used and did not clean) and his idea was cheaper, I listened. Hence why after reading about beaslbob, I am now thinking maybe this guy was on to something and that is why I never have problems. My filter contains lots of good bacteria?

So, I actually started reading re: planted tanks because I wish to set up a 90gallon discus tank. Though, I recently aquired a 65ish gallon vertical tank. Really neat shape and the angels should LOVE it. I was already going to use sand/driftwood/plants for both tanks. I am going to do the vertical tank first now and try this method. 

What would happen if I set this tank up this way: peat/sand/gravol substrate, lot's of plants and somw driftwood. I will run the old canister filter that came with it and not change the medium. (Though I originally was going to) to add some bacteria. 

I am not nervous about not changing the water but the lack of filter. 

Anyway, any help with my new experiment will be appreciated 

Merry Christmas, Lei


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lei said:


> I am setting up 2 new tanks and am fascinated by this method. I have a 35 gallon (I think) planted angel tank. It has a hang on the back filter that I do not clean or change the medium and never did even when I got it used. No carbon and a bag of peat added. I did used to vacuum the tank and do water changes.
> 
> Due to a family crisis I had less and less time for the tank so I messed with the water less and less. My plants I had planted in little clay pots with peat and sand. Since I was setting up a bigger tank I would pick up plants when I saw a good deal, but had no time to set up the other tank so there are quite a few plants "stored" in there.
> 
> ...


Looks like you are on the right track.

FWIW there is nothing experimental about these methods they actually are the oldest and most time honored methods available. After all we had aquariums long before we had electricity. 

(of course I understand they are experimental to you because you have never used them).

I would use the peat/sand/gravel substrate and a mix of fast growing (anacharis, vals, westeria) and slower growing plants (small potted, crypts, anubies, swords). and let them set for a week. Then add 1 fish and not add food for a week. Then at at least 4 more angels to form a school and start very light feeding.

If you get some cloudiness kill the lights and stop feeding for a few days.

You should be fine.

my .02


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## chris oe (Feb 27, 2009)

People refer to "proper lighting" but I'm not sure what that would refer to - just what is proper for the plants involved?

Peat moss is getting harder to get, peat fields are getting depleted, not surprised Europe has harder time. We get our peat from Canadian peat fields in the U.S. - not a big problem, but there are getting to be concerns I hear (garden head in my other life) but yeah, we can get big bales here in the U.S. I wonder if coco fiber or some other plant fiber might work as well. Probably would require an experiment. 

Do any of you do regular water testing, if so, what and how often?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

chris oe said:


> People refer to "proper lighting" but I'm not sure what that would refer to - just what is proper for the plants involved?


I use 1.5-2 watts per gallon for 6500k lighting. usually that can be easily obtained with (smaller tanks) spiral bulbs in round reflectors or with 4' shop lights. also it is the actuall normal ourput watts used not the incandescent equilivant rating.


> Peat moss is getting harder to get, peat fields are getting depleted, not surprised Europe has harder time. We get our peat from Canadian peat fields in the U.S. - not a big problem, but there are getting to be concerns I hear (garden head in my other life) but yeah, we can get big bales here in the U.S. I wonder if coco fiber or some other plant fiber might work as well. Probably would require an experiment.


Could be. If you experiment please report back.


> Do any of you do regular water testing, if so, what and how often?


On my fw planted no. I have done testing which indicated why the peat substrate with a planted tank works well. KH and GH remained constant for years. 

my .02


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## Scyry (Dec 1, 2010)

I got comments on here about my tank's substrate being too deep. I just got back to aquariums after a 10 year absense. I always went with 4-5 inches of regular gravel, an UGF and filtering with no carbon. I'd do air bubbles to break the water surface but would always fill the tank completely and avoid having the filters 'dumping' into the water.

Basically for the first couple months I would watch the water conditions, but once the bacteria load in the substrate and filter got going I never had to worry about the tank. I'd do weekly top offs and that was about it. Every six months or so I'd do a 25% water change followed up with another 25% the week later. This was just to lower the salts that built up in the water. 

This tank is the first time I have put live plants in a tank. I noticed it stabilized faster than I remembered. This weekend I looked at my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and everything was zero. I've had the tank for 3 weeks. The first week I just dropped bits of food in to start up the nitrogen cycle. After a week I added White Cloud Mountain Minnows. The second week I added 6 corries and a Clown Pleco. This weekend I added 3 Otos. My plants have had very little die off and several I can see they are adding leaves. 

I am very curious of the BB builds and am looking forward to trying one with my next tank. Though I may alter it slightly for kicks.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

chris oe said:


> Peat moss is getting harder to get, peat fields are getting depleted, not surprised Europe has harder time. We get our peat from Canadian peat fields in the U.S. - not a big problem, but there are getting to be concerns I hear (garden head in my other life) but yeah, we can get big bales here in the U.S. I wonder if coco fiber or some other plant fiber might work as well. Probably would require an experiment.


I can't get it here either (Portugal). I've been trying to find out about using coco fiber too as it's cheep and easy to find here. One thread on another forum mentioned using vermiculite, coco fiber, sand and soil in equal parts. If you try it let me know! I tried putting a bit of coco fiber in water, it floated and turned the water yellow so it might be a pain but it seems like some people have already used it with success.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

I used peat because it is so inexpensive. Like 2/3's cubic yard is like $10 here and enough for many many tanks. Hopefully other organics will work as well.

IMHO the vaslty overarching consideration is the use of live plants. Sure I used the peat to keep neon tetras but almost all other fish I tried with my limited experience did fine with just sand/gravel. So over all it is the live plants balancing out and stabilizing operations that is important. Everything else IMHO is simply not as important.


my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Here are a couple of links I found on coco fiber, it seems to be pretty experimental still:
Coconut Fiber
HELP!!! Need to know if coconut fiber will work - Substrates - Aquatic Plant Central
3 layer substrate...


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## Chillwill007 (Aug 20, 2010)

Beaslbob I like the look of humanl3ss tank with the white sand. So I was thinking would it work if I used a layer of peat then put a, layer of the floor dry which is 4 difrent types of dried clay then a layer of white play sand. I figured it gets the peat and the add bonus of the iron from the clay. What u think?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Chillwill007 said:


> Beaslbob I like the look of humanl3ss tank with the white sand. So I was thinking would it work if I used a layer of peat then put a, layer of the floor dry which is 4 difrent types of dried clay then a layer of white play sand. I figured it gets the peat and the add bonus of the iron from the clay. What u think?


Actually that is more or less what I recommend. 1" peat moss, 1" play sand,1" pc select. put in peat wet, level and clean tank then add sand and repeat. the pc select is an iron rich baked clay used for baseball infields.

So actually what you are think seems to be spot on. I use the sand to "trap" the peat at the bottom. so the tank is basically clear right from the start.

and then plant before filling the tank with water. Which also prevents the stirring up all that mess when you plant the tank full of water.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Minus the top layer of gravel....can't all this stuff just be mixed together or is it better to have a complete layer all together? You'd still get the same benefits of the peat and could provide a better suited medium for root growth. Just a thought.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Minus the top layer of gravel....can't all this stuff just be mixed together or is it better to have a complete layer all together? You'd still get the same benefits of the peat and could provide a better suited medium for root growth. Just a thought.


Yep.

the down side is the tank is extremely cloudy for a few days and has a surface scum at first.

But yep it does contain all the right stuff.

and yep it will all get water logged and settle down.




eventually. *old dude

I was just amazed at how clear the tank was initially with the layered and planting before filling approach.


my .02


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Only reason I was aksing is in my younger days when I would help my Dad with all the plants he used to have and when we would move things to bigger pots and stuff like that, we never layered the peat. We would take big heaping handfuls and mix it all up.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

jrman83 said:


> Only reason I was aksing is in my younger days when I would help my Dad with all the plants he used to have and when we would move things to bigger pots and stuff like that, we never layered the peat. We would take big heaping handfuls and mix it all up.




Yeppers. As did I.


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## Chillwill007 (Aug 20, 2010)

But o meant I would be flipping the top 2 layers. Peat, clay, then sand. Because my tank is black ruined and I want a black stand so the white sand would make it pop more.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Chillwill007 said:


> But o meant I would be flipping the top 2 layers. Peat, clay, then sand. Because my tank is black ruined and I want a black stand so the white sand would make it pop more.


Or just mix the peat and clay together in one level. Then "trap" that with the sand on top.



my .02


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

I've got another question about this type of setup. What do you do when you have to move the tank? We may be moving house in a year or so and it seems like any type of substrate like this is going to be a nightmare to deal with in my 90 gallon.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> I've got another question about this type of setup. What do you do when you have to move the tank? We may be moving house in a year or so and it seems like any type of substrate like this is going to be a nightmare to deal with in my 90 gallon.


Best thing is to not move the tank.

Like any other kind of tank move you Keep as much of the water as you can.

Get the fish and water into insulated containers along with the plants. During the move keep the containers open for air and light. but you can have lids partially closed them to keep splashed water down to a minimum.

and also try to get out the substrate and keep it wet.

then at the new location repeat the process. setup tank, add substrate, wet, replant plants, add water and fish.

then let set a few days with no feedings but with light.

replace an water lost slowly a little each day until tank is full again.

The substrate would then be all dark at that point because it is all mixed together.

But the fish and plants should survive with very little losses.

my .02


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## Lei (Dec 24, 2010)

Alright, now let's just imagine that some fish type is completely insane. Either that or they really believe in this Leiden method.

They might have the nerve to try it with a 70 gallon. What would make them crazy is that it is a vertical custom tank. Meaning there is no possible way to reach the bottom of the tank to fuss with the plants. One might have a moment of thinking they are totally nuts when threy are pouring soaked peat moss into the bottom of a tank they can't even reach. OMG "what a huge mess this could result in and I would never be able to get it out" comes to mind.

I have become very adapt at using long BBQ tongs. The actual tank is 3 ft deep, I stand on a stool (due to the cupboard stand it is on) and reach down into it the best I can. Imagine a 6ft bookshelve where the middle shelves are a fish tank and you will be right on.

Planting a Beaslbob has become a unique challenge. In that I can't actually reach the planting area!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This also made me think of a secondary problem. Plant maintenence. What critters can I put in there to eat dead plant matter? Because plant trimming will be almost impossible in a 3 ft deep tank encased in a 6ft high stand once the water is in.

I am sure my angel fish will love this vertical tank, between the vertical space plus since they also love the "by mistake beaslbob planted tank I created, I am sure they will be fine. 

So, since I can't reach the bottom of this tank easily, I need hints on how to create a true ecosystem. Can I employ snails to eat the dead plants? 

On an aside, I recently bought a few molly's because they are supposed to eat algea. Well, they do, right after I got them home, not shy, started sucking my plants clean, I was flabergasted. The next day I found some fry which is a whole other story.

Anyway, Bob, HELP. Snails or no snails? I hate shrimp. I mean HATE them, not sure if I can do them. But, what critters does one need for a functional "leave it alone" tank?

However, How about I also don't go crazy? I should also mention that I am 5"2. reaching into a 3ft tank so far....isn't working for me!!!!


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

beaslbob said:


> Best thing is to not move the tank.
> 
> Like any other kind of tank move you Keep as much of the water as you can.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Ive moved tanks before and it's easier that I expected. Our next move would only be 20mins away in the car so I'm not too worried about that part, it's just that the peat, sand, soil type substrates seem like a pest to deal with. So you say I should just put it back all mixed up and it won't matter that it's not layered?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I can't imagine a tank that deep. I would just go without plants or use a snorkel, lol.


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## Amie (Sep 15, 2010)

I have bladder snails in my 10gal. I don't remove any plant debris-just let them eat it. The population is exploding at the moment but as the dead plant matter gets less then I'm expecting the snails will die off too.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

If you don't mind snails I'd add two or three types and see what works, but then I like snails


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Lei said:


> ...
> Planting a Beaslbob has become a unique challenge. In that I can't actually reach the planting area!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


people do use long tongs for such situations but your point is valid.


> This also made me think of a secondary problem. Plant maintenence. What critters can I put in there to eat dead plant matter? Because plant trimming will be almost impossible in a 3 ft deep tank encased in a 6ft high stand once the water is in.
> 
> I am sure my angel fish will love this vertical tank, between the vertical space plus since they also love the "by mistake beaslbob planted tank I created, I am sure they will be fine.
> 
> ...


Look all of the I can't plant in a 3' tanks, can't do maintenance and so on would also be true of a non planted tank. Only with a planted tank you have to do less maintenance. For instance, I never clean the sand/gravel in my tanks.

You will get snails from your plants. They will bloom, eat fish poop and dead leaves and even algae. Then as snail food is less, in a year or so there will only be a few.

Regardless of the tank deapth the best way IMHO to establish an ecosystem is to first add plants then do the rest.


my .02 with best wishes


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Lei said:


> This also made me think of a secondary problem. Plant maintenence. What critters can I put in there to eat dead plant matter? Because plant trimming will be almost impossible in a 3 ft deep tank encased in a 6ft high stand once the water is in.


My first recommendation would be shrimp...



> ...I hate shrimp. I mean HATE them, not sure if I can do them.


Oh, maybe not.  Seriously, I would look into getting Malaysian Trumpet Snails.. If you see them in the petstore tank, just ask if you can have a few. I get bladder snails, but like the MTS better because they hide more during daylight, they are livebearers with no eggs, and they eat all leftover food and decaying plant matter. They don't eat plants at all that I've seen.

If you're adding plants you'll likely get snails of some variety, might as well pick them out.


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## Lei (Dec 24, 2010)

Hello again, thanks for all the advice!

The vertical tank is planted and cycling. I used peat/sand/gravel. I used tongs and the rounded part of a wooden broom handle to plant. It wasn't horrible after I got the hang of it. I would scrape away the gravel, use the broom handle to make a hole in the sand, then lower the plant in with tongs. The hardest part was "patting" down the plants gently so that they were planted, firm enough so they did not float out but gently enough so I didn't harm them. Much easier to do with your hands.

I did not change the canister filter mediums I got inside my used filter but it did look pretty new, so probably not alot of good bacteria in there. I took about 6-7 gallons from my established tank to add to it. After I filled it, I took the sponge from my established tank's filter and squeezed it the tank a few times. I added some plant fertilizer since the tank would be too "clean" I thought. I also added a bit of salt. The temp is at 79. 

So, that is where we are at. Now, the vals I planted which I had luck with in my previous tank are melting  A sword also looks awful. Anubius and wisteria look fine. Java fern and something else if forget the name is set to attach to the driftwood and they look fine. I can't remember the names of the other plants I am having a moment. 

Could this be a lack of anything for them to feed on? Since I added "good" bacteria and there is nothing producing enough nitrites for them? Are they lacking CO2? Since my original angel tank was establish and I added a plant at a time, I did not run into this. Everything grew. (With the addition of a good light)

Anyway, the plants are not happy between the move and the new tank. I do not think the lights are bright enough in this tank. They are coralife color max, I think 20W. I am not sure what size they are, but they are fatter than any other bulb I have had in a tank. They need to be changed as they are old and came with the set up used, however I am not sure if I should replace them witht he same type or what is even available for this odd size.

I originally had about a hundred snails in the first angel tank when it was given to me, so I now have 2 clown loaches. So, no snail eggs on plants do not have a great chance. I am wondering what type of larger snail would be appropriate. I do get the impression the shrimp are very good for the planted aquarium, I really do hate the creepy little things. Though, I might give in if I really need them to create a balance. 

I am going to pull the plants that are dying. If anyone can see anything I forgot to add, please let me know. There is one fish in the tank.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

Light doesn't penetrate water very well so in a deep tank you need more light than normal.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

snail said:


> Light doesn't penetrate water very well so in a deep tank you need more light than normal.


true tat

With the same watts/per gallon and assuming the light covers the top, There is less surface area for the lights. Therefore the lighting is concentrated in a smaller area and, the light penetrates further.


my .02


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## automatic-hydromatic (Oct 18, 2010)

thus why I like my 30 gallon breeder tank  only 14" deep


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## mfgann (Oct 21, 2010)

Vals and swords both get finicky when moved. Vals will melt, but come back, and the sword will begin to look healthier. I've only got swords in my 30G, so I've no experience with it in a beaslbob tank, but I know they're heavy, heavy root feeders. You might consider bending the rules a bit to add a root tablet fertilizer under/near it. They're cheap and I don't think beaslbob will get too mad, will you?

All in all it sounds like a good start. Be careful adding fertilizers, because if you don't have enough CO2 and light in your system, the ferts will just kick off an algae bloom. That said, I used the peat moss from miracle gro (oops) and added ferts at first, and the plants kept the nutrients sucked up well enough to prevent algae so far. So don't panic.. just be overly cautious. Also, if you ever add Flourish Excel it WILL melt anacharis and vals.

Good luck


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## Lei (Dec 24, 2010)

Well I am continueing to truck along. I pulled the dying plants and added a few really tall plastic ones for now as it will be some time before I will have 3ft plants in this tank. 3-4 of the plant types survived and 3 types died. Of those types I saved what I could and put them back in another tank to see if they recover. I think between the lack of good lighting for that depth, and lack of waste product for that # of plants to feed on, that was most likely the problem. Experiementing!

My husband found me a "reacher" , the type that seniors use. It is making things easier.

There are a few more fish in there due to a fish real estate problem here, but I will closely monitor the tank and change water as needed. I am running a filter for now. I don't think it is going to cycle much since it has the water/bacteria from another tank in there. My N/n is 0. 

I am more concerned about the PH from all the peat, it is really low. 5 ish? Unless my strips are inaccurate once it gets that low. I added a bit of PH 7, about 1/5th or what the tank would need to bring it up to 7. I didn't want to shock the tank by going from 5-7, but didn't want it to keep dropping either!

I am still having trouble finding lights for it, I won't be able to get more plants until I do. For now the low light ones are still doing well.

I did try adding 2 cherry shrimp. One died on the way home. The other was promptly eaten on his way down to the bottom (He had 3 ft to go!) I did try getting him as far down as I could towards a mound of java moss, but he was still lunch.

I am still looking for snail suggestions. Big enough that they will not be eaten by my 2.5 inch clown loaches. That will eat plant debrie but not the plants. 

Happy New Year! Lei


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

To give shrimp the best chance add them after lights out when most of the fish are sleeping, still unless there is lots of cover in the tank they probably wont last.


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## M1ster Stanl3y (Dec 10, 2010)

since your looking for a clean up crew, did you ever think about crabs or crayfish/crawdads/whatever else they may be called in your region.


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## snail (Aug 6, 2010)

M1ster Stanl3y said:


> since your looking for a clean up crew, did you ever think about crabs or crayfish/crawdads/whatever else they may be called in your region.


Crayfish don't mix well with most fish and plants.


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