# Nitrite Question



## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

When in a mini cycle and ammonia drops to zero and nitrites are climbing reaching 2 or 3 ppm will it get to 5ppm before it drops to zero?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

simplykayla76 said:


> When in a mini cycle and ammonia drops to zero and nitrites are climbing reaching 2 or 3 ppm will it get to 5ppm before it drops to zero?


sometimes*old dude


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

My fish seem ok. I added salt a couple of weeks ago. When can i add more?


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

I would do water changes to keep levels low, why are you in a mini cycle?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I added a filter about 2 weeks ago. Before this i have always had 0 nitrites. Been doing water changes and it goes Down then right back up the next day just about.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

yes its normal for nitrites to jump up overnight like that, you may have to do daily waterchanges to keep them down to around 1 ppm untill the good bacteria grows on the new filter, shouldnt be long now , then you will see the nitrites disappear overnight. Just for future reference, any time you add a new filter its a good idea to keep the old one running as well for 2-3 weeks, or at least add some of the old filter media to the new one. this will help "seed" the new filter.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I have two other filters on the tank i never took off. I had a AC30 and a top fin 40. well my ammonia wouldn't drop to 0 ever. with 3 goldies it was advised to replace the ac30 with an ac50. well looking at AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor with the ac50 and topfin40 would only be satisfactory filtration. But with the ac30,ac50, and the topfin40 would be plenty filtration so i decided to keep all 3 on there. So the ac50 put me in a mini cycle.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Personally, I can't see how adding a new filter would cause that and may even go as far as to say, no way. The important thing is you're on top of it and doing the right thing to get it under control.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

And just a side note~I am glad I added the ac50 as suggested.  And I didn't mean to say that person that suggested it caused a mini cycle. 

Just maybe I thought I was cycled but never cycled at all since starting my aquarium in Jan. 2012.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Sorry Ben, I miss understood her post and assumed when she said she added a new filter that she just took out the old one. If she just added a filter to her tank then yes that should not cause a mini cycle.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Well I did another pwc to bring down the nitrite. I hope at least i am doing that part right.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Before I used plants I would not add food until nitrItes dropped down.

my .02


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

They haven't ate since Monday. Thought I would wait till the nitrites went to 0 but I dont want to starve them...


Tested a few hours later after the pwc and the nitrite went from between 1ppm and 2ppm to .25ppm.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

There are currently 3 filters running and they all have the ability to convert ammonia to nitrites. But _one_ of the filters, the new one...the largest one producing the largest amount of nitrites, has not yet gained the ability to convert nitrites to nitrates. Thus, nitrites are elevated. The 2 older filters have enough nitrafying bacteria to convert their _own_ nitrites to nitrates, but they don't have enough nitrafying bacteria to convert the nitrites of a 3rd much larger filter...at least not initially...and probably not anytime soon since the new filter is now taking the largest share of the available ammonia causing a reduction in the nitrifying and nitrafying colonies of the older filters, which also contributes to higher free nutrient levels.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Do i need to do anything? Maybe take one off or turn it off....or just keep doing pwc till the big one catches up?


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> Do i need to do anything? Maybe take one off or turn it off....or just keep doing pwc till the big one catches up?


I wouldn't change a thing and I'd do only enough PWC's to keep nitrites at or just under 1. I'd allow the new culturing bacteria to actually reduce them to 0. And when you get to the point where you want to remove one of your old filters...expect another small temporary spike in nutrients as the 2 remaining filters replace the discarded filter's bacterial colonies.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry, but any tank that has 2 filters running already should not get a nitrite spike just because of adding a 3rd filter. If you later removed one and went back to two, the bacteria colonies lost are not replaced. They would no longer have a place to grow, so where would they be replaced at?


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Sorry, but any tank that has 2 filters running already should not get a nitrite spike just because of adding a 3rd filter. If you later removed one and went back to two, the bacteria colonies lost are not replaced. They would no longer have a place to grow, so where would they be replaced at?


The nitrogen cycle is self-regulating and governed by factors such as available bioload and surface area of filter media. The addition of the third filter thinned out the bacterial colonies in the existing 2 filters. And when she ultimately removes one of the old filters, the process will reverse itself and prompt new bacteria to grow evenly within the available surface area of the remaining 2 filters. I don’t know how else to explain it. I’m happy to agree to disagree.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I never took any filters off. And have never had nitrites before.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> I never took any filters off. And have never had nitrites before.


I understand that you've not taken a filter off and also that your tank doesn't normally have nitrites. :fish-in-a-bag:


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I know. I was letting jrman know. i should have quoted him.  Both of you have and are such a big help. Along with everyone that has helped me  Thank You!


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Tested for Nitrites this morning the color is not any shade of purple anymore. Now its a shade of blue but not quite the 0 blue. Feed or wait?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Goby said:


> The nitrogen cycle is self-regulating and governed by factors such as available bioload and surface area of filter media. The addition of the third filter thinned out the bacterial colonies in the existing 2 filters. And when she ultimately removes one of the old filters, the process will reverse itself and prompt new bacteria to grow evenly within the available surface area of the remaining 2 filters. I don’t know how else to explain it. I’m happy to agree to disagree.


Thinned out? You make it sound like it went somewhere. Was it still not part of the total bacteria in the tank? Didn't the aggregate total remain the same? Since bacteria also attaches to things in the tank, if I put a new piece of decor in there does it now mean that the bacteria that attach to it are not doing their job they normally do because they are working on their new place to live?

So based on your ides, should we start warning people when they add a second filter? That they will now see an ammonia and corresponding nitrite spike? 

Your logic doesn't make sense. Whatever reason the nitrite spike occurred in this tank, it wasn't because a new filter was added.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> So based on your ides, should we start warning people when they add a second filter? That they will now see an ammonia and corresponding nitrite spike?


Respectfully, when I shared my "idea", it was with the sincerest of intentions. That said, my idea never included an ammonia spike, so no, we should not start warning people that when they add a second filter they'll see an ammonia spike. They may, however, see a spike in nitrites as their new filter goes through its own unique nitrogen cycle. With that, I'll pass on the debate about bacterial respiration, digestion, and reproduction...actual versus potential. It's enough for me that Kayla's nitrites are once again being fully consumed, no matter the reason.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

There is normally an increase in ammonia before nitrites, but nonetheless adding a new filter does not create ANY kind of negative in beneficial bacteria population. Your logic still doesn't pan out.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

simplykayla76 said:


> Tested for Nitrites this morning the color is not any shade of purple anymore. Now its a shade of blue but not quite the 0 blue. Feed or wait?


Sounds good.

I think you should be fine starting a very very light once per day feeding. I think you will find nitrItes will stay down now. *old dude

my .02


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

i feed every 3rd day. so i was suppose to feed them the 10th and i fed them the 12th. nitrites are in between .25ppm and .50ppm.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

simplykayla76 said:


> i feed every 3rd day. so i was suppose to feed them the 10th and i fed them the 12th. nitrites are in between .25ppm and .50ppm.


that sound good also. *old dude

my .02


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Have we have ruled out any dead fish or plant material rotting away creating extra ammonia?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

My ammonia is staying at zero. no plants or dead fish.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

is it possible the fish have grown to a point that a bigger tank is needed or one of the fish need a new home?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I really need to know what to do! My nitrite is going back up again and I can't do daily water changes....

Re-home? If so how many? One or two?
Change Filtration?
I cannot afford a larger tank right now....


*c/p*


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Do you have the ability to re-home?

I would say that as long as the nitrites dont get above 1ppm you would be okay as long as it didn't last super long. Same basis we use for tanks that are cycling. If it gets above a water change is needed and I would stay away from chemicals.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Yes I can re-home one or two through Craigslist online. If that will drop my nitrite back down to zero and stay there I am willing to re-home for sure 1 of my goldfish.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

dide you tell us at all what size tank you have and how many of what kind of fish you have? I glanced threw the thread but didnt see anything.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

oops. i didn't ...sorry. 

I have a 37 gallon freshwater aquarium with 3 goldfish. 1-2 inch black moor, 1-2.5 inch ryukn, and 1- 3inch fancy.

3 filters- ac30, ac50 and top fin 40.

I had planned to get a 55 or 75 gallon by now and have found myself unable to afford it. i started off on the wrong foot in Jan 2012 with not doing my research and didnt cycle the 37 gallon. i used "cycle" which apparently never worked because until i added the 3 rd filter the ac50 i always had readings of (.25 or higher in ammonia) , (ph 7.8) (nitrate 5ppm) and (0 nitrites). After adding the ac 50 2 or 3 weeks ago my ammonia finally dropped to 0 and has stayed there. My nitrites the last couple of days has stayed between .25 and .50 when they had been rising to 1 or higher. 

As my goldfish are growing i wonder if the nitrites will not drop till i re home a fish thus making the bio load lighter...


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Sounds like you are a bit overstocked, if your willing to give up a fish or two that will help, Goldies are pretty fish but are infamous for having heavy bio-loads.
with your filters you have the ability to remove your carbon filters (which are pretty much useless IMO) and add some more bio wheels or ceramic media that will alow more good bacteria to grow, I think even if you do keep all your fish eventually you can grow enough good bacteria to get your nitrites down.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I think I will re home one and replace the carbon inserts with bio max and see what happens. I have grown quite attached to my goldies and want the best i can give them.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

sounds like a plan, just keep in mind it will take a while for the bios to grow but be patient and keep the levels below 1ppm and I'm sure you'll get the results you want. Keepin my fingers crossed for ya


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Thanks. I will do a update.


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## phil_n_fish (Nov 19, 2011)

A good tip is to make sure you test your water at the same time everyday.(ex: if you test at 11am, you should check at 11am the next day. It just helps keep your tests consistant.) another tip is that goldfish don't have stomachs so they have to constantly eat to survive. This means they will create a lot of waste which can result in higher levels. Maybe you fed them more than usual?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I feed them every third day. So if i feed them wednesday i wont feed them till saturday.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't oppose moving one of your fish if that is what you want to do. I don't think your bio-load is such that the nitrites won't go eventually. You may be doing 50%+ water changes per week to keep nitrates low, but that is about it.

What are your nitrates reading?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Nitrites. My Nitrites yesterday were at .25-.50ppm. I haven't tested them today.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Have you tested for nitrates?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Nitrates have been staying at 5ppm. 

I am re-homing the black moor today. Would it help to go ahead and take off the ac30 ? that would leave the ac50 and the top fin 40.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

No, that would not help.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Ok i will leave that alone. i just tested for nitrates and nitrites. nitrate is still at about 5ppm and nitrites has climbed to the point i need to do another pwc.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Sighs...


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

Hang in there were gonna get this fixed, it will happen quick you could wake up and have 0 nitrites and be dancing for joy. I think your feeding is perfect just that goldies produce alot of waste.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Question....how long ago did the tank go through the nitrogen cycle or had it? This tank is cycling now and it is not just a spike or mini-cycle.

How did the cycle go? Start with a usual ammonia spike, followed by nitrite (just like now), then show some nitrates?

I thought this was a tank that had already cycled but was just experiencing some spike issues, but it doesn't seem that way.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> oops. i didn't ...sorry.
> 
> I have a 37 gallon freshwater aquarium with 3 goldfish. 1-2 inch black moor, 1-2.5 inch ryukn, and 1- 3inch fancy.
> 
> ...


This might help from page 2. If not i can answer any other question.


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## phil_n_fish (Nov 19, 2011)

Is that the pic of your tank on your avatar? If it is, try throwing in some live plants.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, that explains things. This is a typical cycle and not started by something as silly as adding a new filter. Just hang in there doing the water changes. Nitrites will drop. The problem is you started with too many fish for a cycle. One goldie would have done what you needed.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

I re homed one goldfish and just did a pwc. So now i just wait?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Yep. Bacteria colonies are still being formed. Once it starts to go down it will disappear in about 1 day.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Okay, that explains things. This is a typical cycle and not started by something as silly as adding a new filter. Just hang in there doing the water changes. Nitrites will drop. The problem is you started with too many fish for a cycle. One goldie would have done what you needed.


Respectfully, the tank and original filters had already cycled to their fullest capacity, which wasn't enough to process all the ammonia her 3 fish produced. Nonetheless, they completed their cycles long ago. The additional cycling that's taking place now is happening in the new filter, so yes, the nitrites will eventually drop due to the much larger colony of bacteria that's being grown. Not to mention the fact that she rehomed one of her fish...that will bring an end to the new bacterial bloom sooner rather than later.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> oops. i didn't ...sorry.
> 
> I have a 37 gallon freshwater aquarium with 3 goldfish. 1-2 inch black moor, 1-2.5 inch ryukn, and 1- 3inch fancy.
> 
> ...


It was wise for Kayla to quote the post where she stated the history of her tank. It’s my sincere hope that she hasn’t been getting guidance from someone who misunderstood her tanks history. 

The reason Kayla had been getting consistent readings of .25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 nitrate is because the 2 filters she was using could not handle _all_ the waste in her aquarium. They could handle most of it, but not all of it. It's not that the nitrogen cycle had never completed in those filters, because clearly it had. The nitrogen cycle was happening and the water chemistry proves it was happening. Her 2 original filters simply didn't have enough water flow, space, media etc to produce bacterial colonies large enough to consume _all_ the ammonia. And yes, there was some beneficial bacterial free floating and growing on the decorations and in the substrate, but still, it wasn’t enough to consume all the ammonia. But then when she added the third filter , the ammonia finally dropped to 0. And that happened because the 3rd filter provided an immediate environment for a new more powerful aerobic bacterial colony to bloom. The new filter had a larger/faster flow of ammonia-rich water flowing through its larger media. This new avenue of ammonia-rich water-flow happened suddenly. This provided the oxygen-rich environment needed for the sudden bloom of a much larger more powerful aerobic bacterial colony. And it was the appetite of _that_ colony that finally allowed for consumption of _all _ the ammonia in the water. And it was the digestion of _that_ ammonia that caused the increase in nitrites. When large amounts of new aerobic bacteria suddenly start to eat and digest, there will always be a correlating sudden increase in nitrites. This cycling event happened the same way the original cycle happened…it happened the same way all cycles happen. 

Beyond that, due to its larger water flow, larger access to ammonia, and larger surface area…the new filter and its larger developing bacterial colony may be consuming more than the excess .25 ammonia. As a result, the bacterial colonies in the 2 original filters may be getting smaller due to a decrease in the ammonia available to feed their bacteria. And this is why she may see another jump in nitrites when she finally removes one of the original 2 filters. The remaining 2 filters will then have to play catch-up and grow the bacterium that was lost with the removal of that filter. And the growth of that new bacterium will be made possible due to the increase in available ammonia which will also occur after the removal of one of the original filters. Eventually, after a period of a few weeks/months, the bacterium in the 2 remaining filters will spread out evenly in proportion to each filter’s individual flow rate/surface area.

Not my idea, just science.


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Yep. Bacteria colonies are still being formed. Once it starts to go down it will disappear in about 1 day.


Respectfully, while I agree that bacterial colonies are _currently_ being formed, I disagree that their formation has been ongoing since January. If that was the case, she would not have had consistant nitrites of 0 and nitrates of 5. My guess is that she was managing her previously constant excess ammonia levels of .25 and up, with water changes. This is a new cycling event...not an ongoing cycle. I suppose one could argue that the origianal cycle has simply resumed, but that's only because it was provided with an additional oxygen-rich environment to resume within.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Really? Bad guidance? The ONLY guidance has been water changes. If you think that is bad, go read some more. 

I think you're still confused., lol. Thought your last post was a few days ago?


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Still waiting ... tested yesterday and was climbing close to 1ppm again..


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Is there a giving up and starting over point? Maybe with a different kind of fish? I love my goldies...waitng for the nitrites to drop to zero is hard. I just want to know how long to wait before trying something different...


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> Is there a giving up and starting over point? Maybe with a different kind of fish? I love my goldies...waitng for the nitrites to drop to zero is hard. I just want to know how long to wait before trying something different...


I'm sorry you're not getting the results you want...I know how frustrating that can be! 

It's my understanding that at some point during this process, you changed filter media in all or some of your filters. In one filter, it seems you may have changed the media twice...if not, I apologize for misunderstanding your posts. With that, each time you changed the filter media, you lost the bulk of the bacterial colony that was living within that media. And if you did a large water change simultaneously, you may have slightly slowed the growth of new colonies in the new media. Also, feeding every 3rd day may be doing more harm than good. I doubt that schedule has the ability to support the nutritional needs of goldfish or newly developing bacterial cultures. Small steady nutrition is the best practice for both goldfish and bacteria colonies.

Your build is very fresh, therefor I fear you won't see the results you're hoping for until you allow a minimum of 2-3 weeks (maybe more) to pass after changing the media in your filters. I also encourage you to start feeding very small amounts twice daily, and to limit water changes to only what's necessary to keep your fish safe. Maintain the nitrites constantly at 1, or slightly below 1. Try to avoid yoyoing between 0-1. Allow the bacterium to feed off the nitrites and grow into a colony large enough to consume them entirely. The goal of an aquarist is to create a stable nitrogen cycle, and the appropriate way to do that is to initiate that cycle with a_ steady_ supply of nutrients and surface area for the bacteria to proliferate.

With that...I have my own history of doing more harm than good when it comes to tank management...so I get that. I'm not above playing around with different filter media's etc in an attempt to "fix it". But I understand that "the fix" isn't instant...it's not even soon in most cases...and that it often gets worse before it gets better. I'm in the 7th+ month of a new build and I'm still seeing "new tank" stuff. It's true...some aspects of success in this hobby _are_ measured in years, not months. So no, in my experience you are not nearing the "giving up and starting over point".

Also, goldfish aren't easy. I encourage you to seek guidance from hobbyists most familiar with goldfish husbandry. There is a site called goldfishkeepers.com that I've occasionally found helpful with pond management issues. I'm not sure what they'll say in regards to your tank size and bioload etc. I personally think your tank/bioload is manageable, but the members of that forum may use their "goldfish passion" to argue that. So keep everything that's said in perspective...take it with a grain of salt so to speak...in fact do that in every fish forum you participate in.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

Well good news  My nitrites have stayed at .25ppm the last 2 or 3 days....hope this is a good sign that zero nitrites are close by


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## Goby (Mar 21, 2012)

simplykayla76 said:


> Well good news  My nitrites have stayed at .25ppm the last 2 or 3 days....hope this is a good sign that zero nitrites are close by


That's a great sign!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Glad to hear it.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

just tested for nitrites....








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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

simplykayla76 said:


> just tested for nitrites....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



see how easy that was!!! *old dude

my .02


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

congrats, now all thats left to do is a happy dance, just takes a little patients sometimes. Looking at your picture looks like you've been biting your nails over this nitrite thing lol.


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## simplykayla76 (Mar 10, 2012)

lol... i am thrilled!!! I hated stressing my babies.


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