# Fish in cycling



## TROPIC_36_505 (Dec 23, 2013)

Which is better a fish in or a fish less cycling? And is it true if I took filter material from a established tank and put it in my new filter my new tank would start cycling faster?


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

First off, fishless cycle. It will be sooooo much less stressful for you and the fish. I did fish in. I wish I hadn't. Benefit of fishless is when the cycle is complete, you can fully stock your tank. Yes, seeded material is a good idea!*w2


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## TROPIC_36_505 (Dec 23, 2013)

From what I have read about fish less cycling it will take any where from a month to three months is that true?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

If you follow the method given on this forum, it will take you much less time. Less than a month. 3 weeks, tops.

Now, fish-IN cycling can take WEEKS. It takes MUCH longer than fishless cycling and you have to keep on top of your parameters the ENTIRE time. EVERY SINGLE TIME your ammonia or nitrIte are over .25, water change! And guess what, that's going to be about every day! So you get to do a water change eeeveeeery day. sound fun?

Not to mention, since your parameters have to stay in the safe zone the whole time, you can barely have any fish. Forget the 50 fish planned for your 90g (extreme example). I hope you like those 3 danios because that's all you're going to have for WEEKS.

I haven't done a true fish-in cycle on purpose, but for the last two weeks I have had a quarantine/hospital tank set up. For specific reasons I could not seed it from my main tank so it has no cycled filter. I have had to do a minimum of 1 water change a day on it, and the last few days I have to do 2 a day!! I can't even comprehend doing 2 water changes a day for WEEKS ON END. I'm annoyed enough at this, I would never do it on purpose!

I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone who prefers it, but I think deliberately doing a fish-in cycle sounds crazy. It's so much more work!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The advantage is no water change required due to elevated amounts of ammonia/nitrites. Usually makes the cycle occur quicker.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I agree with Jen, it is very frustrating. My fish in cycle took months, not weeks, months. Now, changing the water at .25 with make it take longer. I would change mine when it got to 1ppm. The main point here is do fishless. It's so much faster, easier, tolerable, etc.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

No doubt fishless is going to be the much less stressful and faster alternative... 

The only downside is that you don't have any fish in your tank (That you obviously bought to house fish) for a couple of weeks.

It took 6 weeks for me to do a fish-in cycle... And it was tedious... Very stressful for me, and only two of my fish survived... I can only imagine the permanent damage I have done to them, and I really feel terrible about that.

If you have a humane desire to keep fish alive, don't do a fish-in cycle... Ammonia in any amount is really bad for our finned friends...


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

The fishless cycle method will be the fastest,easiest way to go.It will allow full stocking upon completion due to the large volume of bacteria generated.
If the seeded filter material is large enough to fill your filter then it too may be good to go,but stocking should take place cautiously.I have moved filters(complete) and fish to new tanks without problems.
Most take the time they are cycling and research the fish they are interested in.Research,some questions and time help many avoid some costly mistakes.


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

coralbandit said:


> The fishless cycle method will be the fastest,easiest way to go.It will allow full stocking upon completion due to the large volume of bacteria generated.
> If the seeded filter material is large enough to fill your filter then it too may be good to go,but stocking should take place cautiously.I have moved filters(complete) and fish to new tanks without problems.
> Most take the time they are cycling and research the fish they are interested in.Research,some questions and time help many avoid some costly mistakes.


Okay, couldn't decide so what did I do. I have a 26g bow front that I started with filter,heater and aeration. after a week I added four small fish (two died with what appeared fungus) and now two are left who look just fine after about ten days. Ammonia .25 Nitrites 0 and of course Nitrates 0. My second tank is a ten gallon and two days ago I started to cycle it fishless. Keeping my ammonia at 4 ppm. I am curious to see how long it takes to cycle both tanks . My guess is the fishless cycle will be much quicker. One question. If I finish cycling my ten gallon fishless can I then move the whole filter to the 26 gal to finish it's cycle? Or would that be a bad idea because I might subject it to any disease known or unknown if the tank with fish?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

If you pull the filter off the 10 after it cycles it should speed up /complete the cycle in the 26.But you are correct to think you may infect it if your 26 harbors an illness.To preserve the 10's filter possibly just remove part of it.If you have room in the filter on the 10 add a sponge to fill it up and then you can transfer the sponge to the 26.This way 10 stays cycled and clean and you will help out the 26.


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

Well I will probably get blasted for this again, but I've had fish for over 20 years and I've never performed all the testing that people do here. I set up my tanks, plant them, turn on the heater and let it run for a week or two, add fish and never had a problem. I can't believe all the trouble people go through on this site to set up a tank. 

Just my two cents.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Are you dosing ammonia everyday for your fishless?


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

Nope!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

snowghost45 said:


> Well I will probably get blasted for this again, but I've had fish for over 20 years and I've never performed all the testing that people do here. I set up my tanks, plant them, turn on the heater and let it run for a week or two, add fish and never had a problem. I can't believe all the trouble people go through on this site to set up a tank.
> 
> Just my two cents.


It just shows that ignorance is bliss...even with 20yrs of experience. Without testing you never know/knew. If you got by with no deaths, then good on ya. 

There are obviously two paths to take, or for you, three.

1. Fishless cycle - no danger to fish
2. Fish-in cycle - moderate danger to fish, w/testing and water changes
3. Fish-in cycle - most danger to fish, no testing, no water changes. We will call it the Snowghost45 cycle - don't care, been doing it for 20yrs


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> Are you dosing ammonia everyday for your fishless?


Good question. I have read mixed comments on this as well as many other things. I have not added more ammonia and the last thing I remember reading is to not do any wc and don't add ammonia unless required to maintain about 4ppm in the tank and to check the ammonia every two days. Then as the ammonia level drops add to keep the 4ppm until that is lowered in a 24hr period to zero then add the original amount you started with (one teaspoon in this case) daily until that dissipates in 24hrs. Start checking for nitrites after you see drop in ammonia. Is this what you would recommend? Seems ten opinion for one question is a norm at times about how to cycle a tank using ammonia.


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

snowghost45 said:


> Well I will probably get blasted for this again, but I've had fish for over 20 years and I've never performed all the testing that people do here. I set up my tanks, plant them, turn on the heater and let it run for a week or two, add fish and never had a problem. I can't believe all the trouble people go through on this site to set up a tank.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I know what you mean. Years ago I never remember even checking water chemistry. Filled tank, put in heater and filter and let it sit then you added your fish. I can't say I never lost any though. I think the change is because we now test the water chemistry and have an understanding of the nitrogen cycle. To be honest thirty five years ago I never was told to get a test kit and I never was advised on the nitrogen cycle either. Still I will try both and monitor it for my own interest sake.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Radar said:


> Good question. I have read mixed comments on this as well as many other things. I have not added more ammonia and the last thing I remember reading is to not do any wc and don't add ammonia unless required to maintain about 4ppm in the tank and to check the ammonia every two days. Then as the ammonia level drops add to keep the 4ppm until that is lowered in a 24hr period to zero then add the original amount you started with (one teaspoon in this case) daily until that dissipates in 24hrs. Start checking for nitrites after you see drop in ammonia. Is this what you would recommend? Seems ten opinion for one question is a norm at times about how to cycle a tank using ammonia.


This method will get you there eventually but in the past when others have done it this way it really didn't speed it up too much. The other method drives things to happen at an accelerated rate. I have cycled my last two tanks (the second just to see if I could do in the same time period) by adding ammonia everyday - the same amount it took to get you to 4ppm. Dose it everyday until nitrites show. Once they show dose 1/2 the amount and now only dose every 4th day until the nitrites zero out. My tanks took about 10 days each. No need to test for ammonia and you don't start testing for nitrites until after about the 5th day.

Your method will work. The worst I remember was close to 8wks and that is terrible for a fishless cycle. Up to you.


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

jrman83 said:


> This method will get you there eventually but in the past when others have done it this way it really didn't speed it up too much. The other method drives things to happen at an accelerated rate. I have cycled my last two tanks (the second just to see if I could do in the same time period) by adding ammonia everyday - the same amount it took to get you to 4ppm. Dose it everyday until nitrites show. Once they show dose 1/2 the amount and now only dose every 4th day until the nitrites zero out. My tanks took about 10 days each. No need to test for ammonia and you don't start testing for nitrites until after about the 5th day.
> 
> Your method will work. The worst I remember was close to 8wks and that is terrible for a fishless cycle. Up to you.


I guess I had thought that if ammonia went to high it would kill off bacteria, but your description would indicate there would not be bacteria to be killed off until after nitrites were zeroed out?


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

I suppose it is better than the beaslbob method.... 

Personally I only test so often. I have filters to spare cycled, for emergency setups and tear down's, ect. 

Still though, knowing is half the battle


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm hearing that info is out there being spread by some on the net. I'm not sure if it is because people are looking at the ammonia from a cleaner aspect or not, when it really should be looked at as waste from the fish. I have never seen that happen before and it must be some really high ammonia that causes this to occur. I know my tanks have had to reach well over 18-20ppm before the ammonia started to drop and yet, no issue. They even started to smell like ammonia - which is normal at first but should fade after a couple of hours.

Try it. Dose everyday without fail and you will be surprised how things progress.


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

I just think it's a waste of time and money to follow all of this testing and waiting. Yes, I have never lost a fish doing it the way I do. I didn't say I fully stocked the tank either. I just put in two Serpae tetras for example and have never had a problem. I have met a few friends on this site and some of the attitudes here are driving members away. Can't we all be open to different techniques? Everyone wants to do things the natural way and it is what I've always done. I have never heard of dumping chemicals into a tank until I read it on this site.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

snowghost45 said:


> I just think it's a waste of time and money to follow all of this testing and waiting. Yes, I have never lost a fish doing it the way I do. I didn't say I fully stocked the tank either. I just put in two Serpae tetras for example and have never had a problem. I have met a few friends on this site and some of the attitudes here are driving members away. Can't we all be open to different techniques? Everyone wants to do things the natural way and it is what I've always done. I have never heard of dumping chemicals into a tank until I read it on this site.


Many use the same method you talk about on here everyday with one exception...they test the water to see if ammonia or nitrites are present and if necessary act on it. I think most people try to educate and recommend the best methods in regards to the safety of the fish.

Can you see the difference of testing and "NOT" testing?

Everything is about choice. You can do it your way, I can do it mine, and anyone can do what way they choose.

So if you want to come here and recommend ways that do nothing for the safety of the fish and then recommend that way to new aquarists, then take whatever people want to throw at you about your ideas. To start a newbie off on this path is just wrong. For you and all of your years experience, maybe this is something you can handle. For someone new to this, this is headed down the road to problems and potential death.

I notice that you never explain the full detail of your method (for instance...your mention of "I didn't say I fully stocked the tank" is more than you've ever mentioned before) and if you were maybe to do some of that you would get less flack. But your drive-by method of responses with nothing to back it up other than, "my 20yrs experience", just doesn't work when it flys in the face of 10-15 responses that may have already occurred to the contrary. In fact, I challenge you to this!

So if you have more to add to your method would love to hear it. We know from previous posts that you leave the tank running for 2-3wks before adding fish and we wonder why. What else?


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

snowghost45 said:


> I just think it's a waste of time and money to follow all of this testing and waiting. Yes, I have never lost a fish doing it the way I do. I didn't say I fully stocked the tank either. I just put in two Serpae tetras for example and have never had a problem. I have met a few friends on this site and some of the attitudes here are driving members away. Can't we all be open to different techniques? Everyone wants to do things the natural way and it is what I've always done. I have never heard of dumping chemicals into a tank until I read it on this site.


Aquariums already aren't natural though, are they. Fish were never meant to live in a box for us to gawk at, with a closed water system.

As a newbie to this site and hobby, I agree that people can come on a little strong here. Some people may react negatively to that, while some will just feel challenged to improve. But... people DO fish-in cycle and are then advised on what to test for. Once someone already posts with fish-in or announces they WILL do that, the forumers still help them.

I just don't get why you're against "information" which is what testing provides. More information is always better than less information, in my opinion. Why be willfully ignorant?

Also, this forum is no worse for pushing fishless cycling than others. Most of the forums out there with informed members are trying to promote fishless cycling. If people want to forge on uninformed and just do whatever then they shouldn't bother researching to begin with. Presumably if people research and ask questions, they want to know the best available answers and information.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have long suspected you cycled slowly and naturally.Good for you!
1^ with jr that the details of how you do this would be helpful and could be considered valuable to new members.Low stocking ,regular maintenance have worked for years(I've been keeping for 30+ years) and understand the old school method.There is nothing wrong with proper natural cycling,done correctly.But to say put fish in and never test is very vague,and not enough info for newbs!Sounds like you grow your bacteria slowly and properly add to your stock.Newbs want a tank full of fish and "instant cycle" or at least most aren't prepared to do what is necessary,to keep a new ,fully stocked tank healthy.
Before this site my knowledge of fishless cycle was to feed invisable fish for a month(add food),and it worked well for me.1 whole month at least.
Why knock on the FACT that you can cycle your tank in 10-14 days and have enough bacteria to fully stock safely?I'm probly one of the ones who recommends the fishless cycle often,but if people want to do it with fish in,I'll still help.Waterchanges and testing are just what caring people do when they cycle with fish in.I believe your method could work also;stock very lightly,be patient.If the pet stores would share this info(maybe you too?) then there wouldn't be half the issues we deal with.


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## snowghost45 (May 13, 2013)

Never have put ammonia in my tanks, never tested for it, nor have I ever smelled any. I have three tanks, 55, 33 and 20. You can have your chemicals.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

I guess if you're a fish tank guru and neat freak, cleaning your tank every day, never putting anything in it that could create ammonia....you know, like FOOD, you wouldn't need to test for ammonia. Newbs don't have the kind of knowledge or extended experience as a lot of folks, but I notice even folks with multiple tanks and lengthy experience will at least test their water. 

"You can have your chemicals." Apparently so can your fish. Lol


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

MriGuy85 said:


> "You can have your chemicals." Apparently so can your fish. Lol


I don't mean to throw fuel on the fire... But this is pretty funny right here... *pc


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## Alasse (Mar 12, 2009)

I'll admit I do not test often, some tanks have never been tested, but I do have a test kit here if I need it.
I am a fish in cycler, always have been, and probably always will be. Only chemical I use is declorinator.
Tanks that are fish cycled do not always take 6 weeks or more to finish, I have had them cycle in 3-4 weeks no probs, even quicker if you can get your hands on established filter, which obviously I can now.
It can be done, and done safely for the fish. A bit of extra work never hurt anyone, and having a tank does require some effort lol If some choose to put more effort into doing a fish in cycle, does it really matter.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm going to try to diffuse this here...

Snowghost,
It's not that anyone cares or minds that you do things your way (well Ben might) and always have. It's that you promote carelessness to new people when there is technology now to help us be better newbie fishkeepers.

Technology and scientific advancements aren't a bad thing. Do you hate steam power, cars, the internet? Do you hate penicillin? No, because that would be stupid.
We have more information now than when you started the hobby. It is sensible and prudent for new fishkeepers to utilize this information when beginning the hobby.
There's no reason to fight AGAINST advancement, and when you swing by a new person's thread to tell them to disregard everything, you may as well be telling them that technological advancement doesn't matter and the scientific discoveries of our current modern era are irrelevant.

Just let people be taught the ways of the new era. It's safe fishkeeping and it doesn't hurt YOU that the hobby is now more well informed than it was 30 years ago, and that the power of the internet puts this information at our fingertips. There's just no reason to promote carelessness when carelessness is no longer necessary, and carefulness can be purchased for $16

It's obvious that you are a good fishkeeper, but not every newbie will be able to do it as well as you have done over the years. Teaching the newbies to test is just promoting good tank health. It doesn't matter if it's fishless or fish-in for this to be true.


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## MriGuy85 (Aug 29, 2013)

Well said, Jen.*w3


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

snowghost45 said:


> Never have put ammonia in my tanks, never tested for it, nor have I ever smelled any. I have three tanks, 55, 33 and 20. You can have your chemicals.


You never "intentionally" put ammonia in your tank is what you meant. However, the second you put a fish in your tank you put ammonia in it.

Whether or not you are aware the "chemical" process occurs with or without you - your fish start it. All a fishless cycle does is make it occur on your own terms without having to worry about fish and the rising ammonia level that HAS to happen. No avoiding it! You said earlier that you stock really slow. That is good. But...if I could show you a method that would allow you to stock to near max in under two weeks, would you be interested? Or, would you rather go the slow route? What do you think a newbie would want to do?

I honestly believe you aren't even aware of the nitrogen process. It happens out of water too. It's called nature.

Personally fishless or fish-in is cool with me. But the whole "no testing" thing is just reckless. I have cycled 3 of my 5 tanks with fish, 2 without.

I still wait for you to explain your method. If you are afraid that an argument will ensue, state your case. We had someone like you on here a while back. He took a beating quite a bit but he explained his beliefs very well. How about you? Stop the drive-bys.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't think anyone would argue that ammonia and nitrites are toxic\poisonous to fish. I think everyone who knows about the nitrogen cycle knows waste gets broken down to ammonia then nitrites then nitrates. So knowing this how anyone can justify exposing your pets to toxic\poisonous substances willingly by doing a fish in cycle surprises me. "It's just a little poison" is that how it is rationalized lol.


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## dam718 (Nov 25, 2013)

dalfed said:


> I don't think anyone would argue that ammonia and nitrites are toxic\poisonous to fish. I think everyone who knows about the nitrogen cycle knows waste gets broken down to ammonia then nitrites then nitrates. So knowing this how anyone can justify exposing your pets to toxic\poisonous substances willingly by doing a fish in cycle surprises me. "It's just a little poison" is that how it is rationalized lol.


I think a lot of people that do fish-in cycles were convinced to do so by their big-box salespeople... That's what happened in my case... 

Oh yeah, you NEED to have fish in there or it won't cycle... Here, buy these cheap little tetras and they will make ammonia! Oh no! They died? Here, try these Zebra Danio's! Like they have zero issues sacrificing fish to cycle a tank... It's like they are completely oblivious to the fact that you can put pure ammonia in the tank and "simulate" fish waste without exposing fish to any harm whatsoever... 

If you can do it, and have no casualties, then good on you... But me, I'll never do a fish in cycle again... I hate seeing them die...


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

dam718 said:


> I think a lot of people that do fish-in cycles were convinced to do so by their big-box salespeople... That's what happened in my case...
> 
> Oh yeah, you NEED to have fish in there or it won't cycle... Here, buy these cheap little tetras and they will make ammonia! Oh no! They died? Here, try these Zebra Danio's! Like they have zero issues sacrificing fish to cycle a tank... It's like they are completely oblivious to the fact that you can put pure ammonia in the tank and "simulate" fish waste without exposing fish to any harm whatsoever...
> 
> If you can do it, and have no casualties, then good on you... But me, I'll never do a fish in cycle again... I hate seeing them die...


I agree 100% and when this happens I feel for you and try to help people through it. My problem is with the ones with the knowledge who still choose to do it, or with people telling newbies to cycle with fish in.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't think this was a discussion over whether to cycle a tank with or without fish. I think it was more to do with safety of the fish. You can still make sure that the fish are safe, or only at low to moderate risk, with having fish while the tank is cycling. This accounts for some daily testing to check the environment and the exposure level and adjusting the environment as needed.

This however, is completely contrary to any method that disregards the safety of the fish without any type of testing with today's capability and knowledge of the nitrogen process that is out there.

I agree that doing the fishless cycle is 100% harmless to everything. And that doing it any other way risks the life of some animal. But, I also think with the knowledge and experience of doing fish-in cycles out there and the great success people have had with particular practices to keep the fish safe, that this method can be safe if done correctly.

So I would not go so far as to say that anyone that does a fish-in cycle has made a mistake. It is a choice. If I understand the cycle and know what I need to do, why not? I do applaud the newbies that come here and ask for help and greatly appreciate those that provide guidance on what they need to do. Most of the time though, the choice has already been made.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> I don't think this was a discussion over whether to cycle a tank with or without fish. I think it was more to do with safety of the fish. You can still make sure that the fish are safe, or only at low to moderate risk, with having fish while the tank is cycling. This accounts for some daily testing to check the environment and the exposure level and adjusting the environment as needed.
> 
> This however, is completely contrary to any method that disregards the safety of the fish without any type of testing with today's capability and knowledge of the nitrogen process that is out there.
> 
> ...


Actually that is exactly what the original question was! And although I agree with 99% of your posts on this we will have to agree to disagree, because I am not going to let my dogs knowingly lick a little bit of antifreeze or my fish a little bit of ammonia!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

The original question was just simply, which way was better. Not exactly what this has morphed to.

Personally I prefer fish less for speed but not for any other reason. But I will tell you that a silent cycle done correctly is the best way to cycle, IMO. I have what is needed for that, but lack the patience. In the end, the tank and fish are better off. But then again, why would anyone want anything other than a planted tank?


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

Tolerance and respect for other peoples views is the key to a good debate. The louder we yell the less we are heard as they say. I can see both sides of this and it's a matter of personal preference. I think when we get into accusing one another of animal cruelty or being ignorant the conversation becomes unproductive and is certainly not attracting new people to the hobby.JMO


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Radar said:


> Tolerance and respect for other peoples views is the key to a good debate. The louder we yell the less we are heard as they say. I can see both sides of this and it's a matter of personal preference. I think when we get into accusing one another of animal cruelty or being ignorant the conversation becomes unproductive and is certainly not attracting new people to the hobby.JMO


If being ignorant and saying I didn't know makes you (or anyone)feel better ,than have at it!The question was asked and answers and opinions given.Snowghost has said just what he did many times before.He never shares any relavent info,or insight(low stocking and taking time).With all the info out here I have no problem with saying animal cruelity.Ammonia will kill/shorten your fishes lifespan;FACT.The only way to recognise ammonia(or any other nutient) is by testing;FACT.So if it turns others off,sorry.Ignorance is not an excuse,it is a reason.Next time a cop pulls you over for speeding try saying"I have no idea what the speed limit is!"Bet it doesn't turn out well.Neither does stocking new tanks and failing to test water quality for newbs.There is no need for the "sacrificial fish"anymore.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

This site is no different than any other in regards to a discussion on this topic.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

In answer to your question - the fastest way to cycle a tank is to avoid the cycle completely! Use filter media from another tank in your filter - DONE! Not ready to jump to fully stocked, but you can have fish NOW! And since all the necessary bacteria is in the tank, you can get fully stocked relatively quickly.

For example, when I use an Aquaclear HOB, I run double sponges, no carbon. Normally I clean the bottom one in the sink, and then rotate it to the high position in the filter. This keeps the sponges clean, and keeps a more efficient thin layer of bacteria on the sponges. New tank... I don't clean the sponge, that goes in the new tank, and I add a new sponge to my old tank. Time to add fish... and hurry... don't want the bacteria to die!!

On occasion, I have run my new filter on an old tank for a week and then just moved the whole thing over to the new tank.

Many ways to cycle a tank... adding gravel from another tank... or even the water. The idea is to get all the proper bacteria in the tank at the same time to avoid measurable ammonia or nitrites. Why start at no bacteria when you don't have to? No "cycle" equals no stress!

Hope this helps.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Transferring water from one tank to another will not do much. Very little bb found in the water column.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Botiadancer said:


> In answer to your question - the fastest way to cycle a tank is to avoid the cycle completely! Use filter media from another tank in your filter - DONE! Not ready to jump to fully stocked, but you can have fish NOW! And since all the necessary bacteria is in the tank, you can get fully stocked relatively quickly.
> 
> For example, when I use an Aquaclear HOB, I run double sponges, no carbon. Normally I clean the bottom one in the sink, and then rotate it to the high position in the filter. This keeps the sponges clean, and keeps a more efficient thin layer of bacteria on the sponges. New tank... I don't clean the sponge, that goes in the new tank, and I add a new sponge to my old tank. Time to add fish... and hurry... don't want the bacteria to die!!
> 
> ...


But all of this assumes you have a tank to seed from...
I mean, I don't disagree, but it's not really the same thing as starting from scratch


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

Q: Where does the bacteria on your bio media come from? 
A: The water column

All the bacteria are in the water column before they attach to the bio media and colonize and multiply. You add liquid ammonia to the water column.... not to your biofilter. True, there is not many per cc in the water column, but they are there. Enough to jump start your cycle so you have ammonia and nitrite converting bacteria colonizing your biomedia IMMEDIATELY, rather than having to wait for them to develop in sizable numbers. I have done 100g tanks this way and 15 gallon tanks - not my first choice, but it does allow me to start stocking immediately without getting ammonia/nitrite spikes. The filter pad method can get you fully stocked in weeks or quicker.

As for your first tank, ask your fish store for some of their media. Buy them a new sponge and ask for theirs. Or ask if you can leave the sponge in for a few days. Don't worry about diseases.... you're buying the fish from them! If the filter has it, the fish has it.

Hope this helps.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Jrman83 didn't say there is no bacteria in the water. He said there is very little, which is true. Most of it is in the filter media.
No one has any argument with what you are suggesting, we can all agree that seeding the filter is more efficient than starting from scratch 

I don't think I'd personally get a filter from a fish store though. I'm going to QT every fish I ever buy from here out so I wouldn't want to put it in my tank.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

For the MOST part the is not much good bacteria in the water column.There is some but if was enough to count we would all throw our tanks into a tailspin with waterchanges!I'm another fan of fairly large water changes regulary and without having way more bacteria in filters and surfaces of the tank/filter this would not be possible.Most of the beneficial bacteria prefer to attach to surfaces,hence all the crazy overpriced bio medias people buy.I'm the sponge guy!


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

I just today got my seeded sponge filter from AngelPlus for my fish in aquarium. Decided for the price it was a good way to go. Still waiting for my nitrites to appear in my ten gallon fishless tank. Been adding ammonia for almost five days now. Seems to me (I have to wait to be sure) that a small price for the seeded sponge filter may be worth it's price in gold. We'll see.


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## Protues55 (Dec 26, 2013)

I certainly appreciate the great advances in fish cycling I am reading about here; contrary to a few posts I have seen, aquarists in the 60s and 70s were very much aware of the nitrate cycle and the effects of ammonia. As a teen in the mid-sixties, I worked in a very high-volume tropical fish only store that featured beautifully laid out and maintained tanks (all metal-framed and slate-bottomed). Selling so much new equipment at that time--a time when the hobby was exploding exponentially--I gained a few insights. We always warned a new hobbyist to used "aged" water, wait several days before doing anything, keep the water warm, and we would give him or her a pair of feeders (gold fish for the Arawanas and big cichlids). After a week they could bring the goldfish back for "real" fish (ensuring their return) and start stocking their tanks at no more than two or three fish a week. Testing for PH and hardness with drops and little vials was already commonplace. Not trying to be old school here, but this method invariable worked and because we had a 10 days refund policy for dead fish (yes, in 1966!) we had an interest in giving sane, simple to follow advice. Of course, they call and say "my tanks if cloudy" and we'd say that was a good sign. Just my two cents. As I start my new 55, I am lucky to have old rocks and media from my still working 37 and will probably experiment with more scientific methods.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

snowghost45 said:


> Well I will probably get blasted for this again, but I've had fish for over 20 years and I've never performed all the testing that people do here. I set up my tanks, plant them, turn on the heater and let it run for a week or two, add fish and never had a problem. I can't believe all the trouble people go through on this site to set up a tank.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Here's my two cents reply to yours: 

I *DID* get a little "blasted" for deciding to do the fish-in cycling. It's pretty obvious on this Forum that folks plainly *DON'T LIKE* major pet stores telling "Newbies" to do fish-in cycling. In fact, employees who work in the Fish/Aquarium areas of major pet stores are "put down" a little to much for my liking in these aquarium forums! Forum people don't like hearing minnows called "Feeder Fish", but many people use them exactly for that! 

As for us, the two minnows we're using for this are doing exactly what we bought them for and our water is CRYSTAL CLEAR and the minnows doing *GREAT*. The fish we will keep in the aquarium will be a nice male Betta. When we get the Betta, the minnows will be given to somebody. We aren't putting these Rosy Red Minnows thru *ANY KIND* of pain and agony. If they could *SMILE*, they *WOULD*! The way we (wife/I) see it, if you want to fishless cycle, fine/great, but don't condemn those that decide they want to fish-in cycle. 

The people on this forum give very good advice/comments/info, but can get a little carried-away when reading that someone is doing something they don't agree with.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

snowghost45 said:


> I just think it's a waste of time and money to follow all of this testing and waiting. Yes, I have never lost a fish doing it the way I do. I didn't say I fully stocked the tank either. I just put in two Serpae tetras for example and have never had a problem. I have met a few friends on this site and some of the attitudes here are driving members away. Can't we all be open to different techniques? Everyone wants to do things the natural way and it is what I've always done. I have never heard of dumping chemicals into a tank until I read it on this site.


Have to *100% AGREE* with what is said here! It's *GREAT* when forum people give their "experience" to help others, but when that help isn't necessarily taken, don't condemn the person asking for help.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Everyone thinks this site condemns fish-in cycling. *Not true*. Once you have had a little more time here, maybe you will change your mind.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Radar said:


> Tolerance and respect for other peoples views is the key to a good debate. The louder we yell the less we are heard as they say. I can see both sides of this and it's a matter of personal preference. I think when we get into accusing one another of animal cruelty or being ignorant the conversation becomes unproductive and is certainly not attracting new people to the hobby.JMO


Another posting I have to* TOTALLY AGREE* with!!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Everyone thinks this site condemns fish-in cycling. *Not true*. Once you have had a little more time here, maybe you will change your mind.


Well......I have felt "condemned" by a few comments made towards me for doing the fish-in thing! But, that's ok, I'm a "big boy" and can take it.....well, most of the time anyway.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

DVader said:


> Another posting I have to* TOTALLY AGREE* with!!


A lot of the comments came at you harshly, but unfortunately your own wording and seemingly (is that even a word lol) lack of compassion brought a lot of it on yourself. Once members have seen that you are willing to learn by listening and more importantly researching reactions calmed down.The problem with forums is most of us are not professional writers able to get our feelings across in words and therefore a lot is open to debate.
That being said I am more against fish in cycling then most, you can tell yourself that you are not harming the fish all you want if it makes you feel better but if I told you I was letting my dog drink a little antifreeze every day because I was too indifferent to discard of it correctly would I be cruel? Even if he showed no signs of distress? Just because something was done the same way for a long time does not mean we should not change our way once we learn better.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

dalfed said:


> A lot of the comments came at you harshly, but unfortunately your own wording and seemingly (is that even a word lol) lack of compassion brought a lot of it on yourself. Once members have seen that you are willing to learn by listening and more importantly researching reactions calmed down.The problem with forums is most of us are not professional writers able to get our feelings across in words and therefore a lot is open to debate.
> That being said I am more against fish in cycling then most, you can tell yourself that you are not harming the fish all you want if it makes you feel better but if I told you I was letting my dog drink a little antifreeze every day because I was too indifferent to discard of it correctly would I be cruel? Even if he showed no signs of distress? Just because something was done the same way for a long time does not mean we should not change our way once we learn better.


Wonder if I should take-back that "Thanks" that I sent you. LOL
Anyway, who in the "H" was saying that I wasn't showing any compassion and that I was so-called "bragging" about doing the fish-in thing???? All I said what that we chose that way to do the cycling and that our water is crystal clear and the minnows are feeding and swimming wonderfully. Are the minnows our choice of fish to keep, absolutely *NOT*. They are doing what we bought them for and *YES*, we were told to do fish-in cycle by our local Petsmart people whom have aquariums of their own and showed us pics on their iPhone of them. When we asked "what type of fish to use", they pointed directly to the Rosy Red Minnows! At the same time, a lady was waiting to buy 30 of them to feed her ducks. I already told about this in another posting.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you just want to spike up a debate, fine. Before you go down the road of what you believe this site does when you just joined this month, maybe you should look back over a few years. *MOST* problems that are seen on here come from new aquarists that have blindly believed what they were told in the store by someone that has no experience whatsoever, and working in the fish department in a fish store does not qualify an opinion, and then has numerous troubles that they have come here with. Based on that, people make recommendations to guide the new aquarists in a direction where they can't hurt anything from the cycling stand point. I see nothing wrong with that. If you took offense to how you were talked to, glad to say it wasn't me that said it, but okay. But don't come here and re-quote everything to try and stir the pot again.

It sounds to me like you got some help and at least some good advice. Just like you, we all have our own opinions and methods. Many methods recommended here are based on years of experience, not a few months worth or from what they heard in some local store.

So keep reading and move on to a different thread.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> If you just want to spike up a debate, fine. Before you go down the road of what you believe this site does when you just joined this month, maybe you should look back over a few years. *MOST* problems that are seen on here come from new aquarists that have blindly believed what they were told in the store by someone that has no experience whatsoever, and working in the fish department in a fish store does not qualify an opinion, and then has numerous troubles that they have come here with. Based on that, people make recommendations to guide the new aquarists in a direction where they can't hurt anything from the cycling stand point. I see nothing wrong with that. If you took offense to how you were talked to, glad to say it wasn't me that said it, but okay. But don't come here and re-quote everything to try and stir the pot again.
> 
> It sounds to me like you got some help and at least some good advice. Just like you, we all have our own opinions and methods. Many methods recommended here are based on years of experience, not a few months worth or from what they heard in some local store.
> 
> So keep reading and move on to a different thread.


Not "stirring the pot" about anything. Can't someone agree with what others say??? All I can think of to say at this moment is GESHHHHHHHH!! Sounds like some of you RULE your advice with a "raised arm,closed fist"!! It is a nice forum with plenty of helpful advice, but some will disagree with others. Even experienced Aquarist's will disagree with other experienced Aquarist's!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> Not "stirring the pot" about anything. Can't someone agree with what others say??? All I can think of to say at this moment is GESHHHHHHHH!! Sounds like some of you RULE your advice with a "raised arm,closed fist"!! It is a nice forum with plenty of helpful advice, but some will disagree with others. Even experienced Aquarist's will disagree with other experienced Aquarist's!


Like I said, we all have our own opinions. I think the helpful advice you mention is exactly what you were given. If it didn't come across very well (I guess similar to what I am trying to say to you)or you somehow took offense to it, such is the nature of the internet forum. Surely, if that person was face-to-face with you saying the same thing it would come across differently? There are many disagreements here. If you are not stirring the pot, fine. Although it does look very different.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

What I would like to know is:

How do you folks feel about folks, and I know folks my age (65), who hate computers and won't use them. In that case, a "Newbie" like this, who wants to start their first aquarium, will have to listen to what employees at pet stores, like Petsmart and Peco, tell them. They will hear, as we did, "fish cycling is better and faster". They can't get any advice from forums b/c they don't like computers!

Just wondering what your thoughts about this is.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Although I'm on this site "alot" I am not the smartest kid on the block with computers!I personally don't phones!I at all expenses (even long travel trips) try to avoid doing any of my business over the phone.I feel face to face communication is the best way to get a point across and see the others reaction to things you say and possibly then give further explanation or ask if there is a question?It does at times seem rather "impersonal" to communicate with people you don't know,until you realise that all share a common interest.We all dig fish!
This site is not against "fish in cycling" or there wouldn't be a thread so many link to about it.I think you will be fine the way you are doing things.I also think you would have gotten faster results going "fishless" and it really would have been less effort for you(water under the bridge now).I will also say,and mean no harrassment or bickering or attempt to belittle you,that clear water("crystal clear water") means nothing!You can't see any of the nutrients that cause our fish trouble,without test kits.If you are waiting to get your test kit you are going without it at the most important time as once cycled you will not need nitrite or ammonia test as they will be consumed by the bacteria.All you ever need to test for then is nitrates which should become very consistent over time and testing once have experience will not be necessary.The testing is important now ,to keep your fish(if only for the cycle) healthy.They won't serve their purpose if they die.You won't see very many indicationss of the ammonia or nitrites having bad effects on the minnows till it is probly to late to change it.By then the stess may well have introduced a pathogen(disease) to your water that won't just go away when you pull the minnows,it could effect your betta,as they are greatly stressed before being brought to peoples proper housing(they are kept in a cup of water,a little stressful).


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

coralbandit said:


> Although I'm on this site "alot" I am not the smartest kid on the block with computers!I personally don't phones!I at all expenses (even long travel trips) try to avoid doing any of my business over the phone.I feel face to face communication is the best way to get a point across and see the others reaction to things you say and possibly then give further explanation or ask if there is a question?It does at times seem rather "impersonal" to communicate with people you don't know,until you realise that all share a common interest.We all dig fish!
> This site is not against "fish in cycling" or there wouldn't be a thread so many link to about it.I think you will be fine the way you are doing things.I also think you would have gotten faster results going "fishless" and it really would have been less effort for you(water under the bridge now).I will also say,and mean no harrassment or bickering or attempt to belittle you,that clear water("crystal clear water") means nothing!You can't see any of the nutrients that cause our fish trouble,without test kits.If you are waiting to get your test kit you are going without it at the most important time as once cycled you will not need nitrite or ammonia test as they will be consumed by the bacteria.All you ever need to test for then is nitrates which should become very consistent over time and testing once have experience will not be necessary.The testing is important now ,to keep your fish(if only for the cycle) healthy.They won't serve their purpose if they die.You won't see very many indicationss of the ammonia or nitrites having bad effects on the minnows till it is probly to late to change it.By then the stess may well have introduced a pathogen(disease) to your water that won't just go away when you pull the minnows,it could effect your betta,as they are greatly stressed before being brought to peoples proper housing(they are kept in a cup of water,a little stressful).


First, *THANKS* for this reply. It was nice, not "belittling" like I've got from a couple of postings that obviously hate what we are doing and that we listened to Petsmart employees who have aquariums, have done the fish-in cycling and recommend it over fishless.

So, *WHAT* did clear up our cloudy water? The next morning, after adding the minnows in the night before, the water was perfectly crystal clear! Obviously, the only thing we could think that done it was putting the minnows in and the water getting from the minnows what was needed. Believe us, the water was very noticeably cloudy the day after I set up the aquarium. 
As far as the API Master Test Kit goes, if I was to buy it on Amazon, like suggested by some on here, it would take at least a week to receive it at our apartment. Our plan is to get the API Kit next weekend and I'll take a couple of samples (two different days next week) of the water to Petsmart to strip testing. Only time will tell how our water and the Betta will be. Betta has been bought yet, but water has been tested 4 times since setting up the aquarium on 1/17. Our last reading, last Thursday, was good enough, we were told, to buy a Betta and put it in now. When I told the employee that we'd wait another week or two, he said "that would even be better". 

Now, I haven't read one review on Petsmart website that was a complaint about being told to do the fish-in cycling! Just saying.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> How do you folks feel about folks, and I know folks my age (65), who hate computers and won't use them. In that case, a "Newbie" like this, who wants to start their first aquarium, will have to listen to what employees at pet stores, like Petsmart and Peco, tell them. They will hear, as we did, "fish cycling is better and faster". They can't get any advice from forums b/c they don't like computers!
> 
> Just wondering what your thoughts about this is.


Ignorance is bliss, as they say.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

A cloudy aquarium after initial setup is common and usually clears after everything settles or the filter pull the small particles out of the water. It is usually caused from your gravel/substrate. No matter how much you rinse it, there is always some the you didn't get. Also, cloudy water in a cycling tank such as yours can be common. This is usually the bacteria forming and will usually clear on its own.

If you have the time, read the thread just below this one that talks of fin rot and fish-in cycling. Fin rot is usually a water quality problem. May want to re-think putting in your Betta until cycling is over. 

The fish store people are there for one main purpose, to sell you fish. I have overheard numerous giving advice like they knew what they were doing. Things like 5 goldfish in a 20g tank, or 30 guppies in a 5g. To the unknowing customer, these people all sounded like they knew what they were talking about.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Fish in cycling done properly is not bad or a crime.It is hard work though.It means changing water as often as the test dictate to keep the fish healthy so the cycle can mature.Basic agreement is ammonia and nitrites should not be allowed to go over 1ppm or there is a risk of stressing the fish.Stressed fish eventually get ill.Often the disease they get will be capable of living in just water without fish (the host) for a week to over 30 days!This is along with trying to make life easier for the keeper is why so many recommend(not demand) fishless cycling.There is no chance of introducing a pathogen from stressed fish or the need to ever change water until the cycle is complete.With fish in cycling you should be testing your water daily(for ammonia and nitrites) to reduce the chance of developing an illness in your tank.When levels get to the agreed upon 1ppm a waterchange is the next course of action.The % of water you change is the % the nutrient(ammonia,nitrite or nitrates) will be reduced.So if you have 1.5ppm ammonia a 50% waterchange will reduce the ammonia to .75ppm.The same is true with NITRATES which are the end result of having a cycled tank.Saying all tanks that are cycled have nitrates and they continue to increase forever.This is why after cycling waterchanges are still very important.They are the only way to reduce/remove nitrates.Many change 50% every week as a schedule.The clean water is good for the fish and encourages ,better growth,color and health.There are other things in our tanks besides the common nutrients like hormones from fish which can stunt the growth of other fish.There are no test for this so again many just change water.
I can't say why your tank cleared up.but water itself has an adjustment period of 24+ hours where after exposure to air(oxygen) and light that the chemicals we have introduced(chlorine/chloramine) break down.Those are put in water to keep it safe for us to drink,but are deadly for our fish and bacteria.So often in the first couple days that water loses those chemicals other reactions take place(cloudiness).You mentioned that your filter has carbon ,which may have helped to clear it ,but can't say for sure.I am sure the minnows did not make your water "right",they will only pollute the water ,all fish do.That's why we filter and change water.
This is only my opinion,and I'll add every tank is different(all of our water is different) that I highly doubt your tank is cycled(or was good enough) in just one week.The fishless cycle is the fastest method to grow beneficial bacteria and usually takes 10-14 days.Many have fish in cycled in no less than months(some in 3-4 weeks). Without test results with real numbers(not just "you're all good") it is very diffacult to say.You need 0ammonia,0nitrites and some detectable level of nitrates to be cycled.
I do love a good debate over fishkeeping(make it an argument if we like),but however info is shared it has no effect on how my tanks run.So debating is really useless for me.I keep and breed freshwater fish(for 30+ years) and have kept reef aquairums for 25+ also.Alot has changed in this time,we never even knew about fishless cycling back then.So there are many different opinions and methods still being used today.What we do all agree on is that we want the best for our fish,and we(the members)want the best for your fish also(this like fish in cycling is not a crime,but possibly mis understood).
Without test(not even going to count what petsmart says) you should be changing 33-50% of your water weekly.
Idon't think any of the chain stores get bad reviews(or put them up for public viewing),as many feel when something goes wrong with their aquarium that they are to blame(I must have done something wrong?).I will say some employees are probly very knowledgable about fishkeeping,but most are not.
Just my opinion again,I'm not always right.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Ignorance is bliss, as they say.


Out of sure curiosity, are you saying that people who don't use a computer are "ignorant"???? Either that or their "ignorant" for taking the suggestions of the fish/aquarium people at major stores. If they know NOBODY who owns an aquarium, just would do "old folks" do?? Or, they talk to a friend who done the fish-in cycling and it worked fine, they will do it themselves. 

What about parents buying their young kid a 5 gallon aquarium (first aquarium, don't know anyone who has an aquarium, and asks the employee at Petsmart or Petco questions about fish and aquariums and that employee suggests fish-in cycling among other things that people on this forum, and other forums, would highly disagree with.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> What about parents buying their young kid a 5 gallon aquarium (first aquarium, don't know anyone who has an aquarium, and asks the employee at Petsmart or Petco questions about fish and aquariums and that employee suggests fish-in cycling among other things that people on this forum, and other forums, would highly disagree with.


This is one of main issues we(the members) get to deal with on a regular basis.Many parents who have followed the advice of chain stores,but can't stand to keep killing fish that their children love,come here to find an answer or solution that will work before completely giving up.
Too many times we have heard "they said" or "I did what they told me",sometimes we even hear "after listening to them I came home and read that this was all wrong,what do I do now that I have a tank full of fish?"
Most gladly accept the help/opinions offered and many have even gone on to be sucessful fishkeepers and continue to enjoy a hobby that isn't "rocket science",but does have some knowledge needed.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> A cloudy aquarium after initial setup is common and usually clears after everything settles or the filter pull the small particles out of the water. It is usually caused from your gravel/substrate. No matter how much you rinse it, there is always some the you didn't get. Also, cloudy water in a cycling tank such as yours can be common. This is usually the bacteria forming and will usually clear on its own.
> 
> If you have the time, read the thread just below this one that talks of fin rot and fish-in cycling. Fin rot is usually a water quality problem. May want to re-think putting in your Betta until cycling is over.
> 
> The fish store people are there for one main purpose, to sell you fish. I have overheard numerous giving advice like they knew what they were doing. Things like 5 goldfish in a 20g tank, or 30 guppies in a 5g. To the unknowing customer, these people all sounded like they knew what they were talking about.


And, the only way we will know that the cycling is over is when our water tests fine for buying/adding the Betta........correct? Also, from my week-long research on the old internet (being Retired and having plenty of time to do this, the three employees we've been talking to at our local Petsmart are pretty darn knowledgeable about fish and aquariums! One of them told how great the filter/BIO Wheel was in the Marineland 5 Gallon/Hex 5 that we were considering buying and did indeed buy.

I'm now wondering how many, if any, Petsmart, Petco or other major pet store employees do become members of aquarium/fish forums and read just how much they are "put down" by existing forum members! It sure wouldn't make me happy to read these comments!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> Out of sure curiosity, are you saying that people who don't use a computer are "ignorant"???? Either that or their "ignorant" for taking the suggestions of the fish/aquarium people at major stores. If they know NOBODY who owns an aquarium, just would do "old folks" do?? Or, they talk to a friend who done the fish-in cycling and it worked fine, they will do it themselves.
> 
> What about parents buying their young kid a 5 gallon aquarium (first aquarium, don't know anyone who has an aquarium, and asks the employee at Petsmart or Petco questions about fish and aquariums and that employee suggests fish-in cycling among other things that people on this forum, and other forums, would highly disagree with.


Yeah, that is what I meant for sure. I love how you construe things. Ignorance is just a lack of knowledge. Plain and simple.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Yeah, that is what I meant for sure. I love how you construe things. Ignorance is just a lack of knowledge. Plain and simple.


Saying "lack of knowledge" is MUCH better than to say "ignorance". You most likely didn't mean it the way I took it, but seeing the word "ignorance" in a posting, well I just don't know. It sure took this old man by surprise!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> And, the only way we will know that the cycling is over is when our water tests fine for buying/adding the Betta........correct? Also, from my week-long research on the old internet (being Retired and having plenty of time to do this, the three employees we've been talking to at our local Petsmart are pretty darn knowledgeable about fish and aquariums! One of them told how great the filter/BIO Wheel was in the Marineland 5 Gallon/Hex 5 that we were considering buying and did indeed buy.
> 
> I'm now wondering how many, if any, Petsmart, Petco or other major pet store employees do become members of aquarium/fish forums and read just how much they are "put down" by existing forum members! It sure wouldn't make me happy to read these comments!


Yes, that is correct.

Do you have any experience is fish-keeping? Do you have the knowledge base or experience to qualify what the fish store workers tell you?

How about an analogy? If you know nothing about cars and I tell you how many things you have wrong with your car could you argue? As long as I *sounded* like I knew what I was talking about would you believe me and think I was probably right?

Like I said before, hang around for a while and your opinion will change. We deal with bad advice here every month and some of it is astounding. So, maybe it is possible that you lucked out and found not only 3 people who knew what they were talking about, but all 3 in the same store. I don't go to fish stores to buy supplies as prices are about 30-40% higher than the internet, and only go to the one where there are some knowledgeable people to buy fish. I have tested some and act like I don't know better, just to see and try to listen in on any conversations I see them having with patrons. For the most part, they don't know much more than what they were taught before taking the job. We used to have one person that worked at a fish store here and although there were a few times he didn't agree, most of the time he agreed that bad advice was being given. Our opinion of these people doesn't just come out of the blue, it not only comes from years of experience in fishkeeping, but mostly from years of being on this site. Hang around for a couple of years and watch.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, one thing *FOR SURE*........the 3 employees we talked to at Petsmart's fish/aquarium area and the 1 employee we talked to in the same area at Petco, knew much more than we did. I mean WHO buys and aquarium one day and joins a aquarium forum on the same day or or the next??? I was told at Petsmart, by an employee, a lot of folks come to the store buy an aquarium (first one), take it home/set it up, go back to the store/buy the fish and put them in. They never even asked the employee about cycling or anything. They've been to the store before and looked all over the fish/aquarium area and decided what fish they want. They may ask about an aquarium, but don't get too indepth with questions. They don't like/become members of forums. They just read articles in different websites about feeding/caring for the fish they are interested in.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

DVader said:


> Wonder if I should take-back that "Thanks" that I sent you. LOL
> Anyway, who in the "H" was saying that I wasn't showing any compassion and that I was so-called "bragging" about doing the fish-in thing???? All I said what that we chose that way to do the cycling and that our water is crystal clear and the minnows are feeding and swimming wonderfully. Are the minnows our choice of fish to keep, absolutely *NOT*. They are doing what we bought them for and *YES*, we were told to do fish-in cycle by our local Petsmart people whom have aquariums of their own and showed us pics on their iPhone of them. When we asked "what type of fish to use", they pointed directly to the Rosy Red Minnows! At the same time, a lady was waiting to buy 30 of them to feed her ducks. I already told about this in another posting.


You just see what you want to in a post don't you lol!! Please go back and see that I had put "seemingly" and went on to clarify that once you had clarified your actions there was less opposition hence the problem with written forums!!!! and no where did I mention bragging!!
I know it is human nature to fight back when feeling attacked but slow the fight down a lil on those not attacking.
As far as the store you have received the advice from I would venture a guess that they do have a fairly knowledgeable supervisor or someone who is teaching them, which is super!! But like as been said before that is very rare by our experience and you will see what we are trying to tell you over the next months/years that you are here.
Please remember that there is not one person here profiting from this forum IT IS A GROUP OF KNOWLEDGEABLE CARING PEOPLE who take the time to help others, out of a love for the hobby.


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## Buttons (Jan 22, 2014)

Reading along here, and going to post one last thing that came to mind as I read. 

DVader, you've mentioned multiple times about the water clearing and such. Ammonia and nitrite build up is much like carbon monoxide build up. You can't see it, or smell it, or hear, it or taste it. By the time you're showing poisoning symptoms, levels are really high and damage to your body has occurred (it may or may not fully heal over time). Most people don't find it unreasonable to keep a carbon monoxide detector in their homes to monitor the levels for them. Testing daily during fish-in cycling is much like using a carbon monoxide detector. It protects the inhabitants of the space from unseen dangers.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

As Susankat said on the other post way back when (last week?), "we all know how this plays out." It's as though this is from a script that was pulled off the shelf by a producer who thought it was time to act it out again. A tragedy of course, complete with all the dramatic and comedic elements.

So a few suggestions and comments, which I have to seemingly clarify these days as being my opinion only lest someone think I am adding to the 10 commandments...

Post your comments as though they are for a new fishkeeper who is trying to learn the hobby.

Before there were computers, there were books. Oh wait, there still are... and you can look at them for free at your local library. What a deal! Information available to everyone!

Actions speak louder than words. And it works both ways too!

There are those that deny the existence of dinosaurs.

We all know the pitfalls of what happens when you assume.

Unlike in ice dancing, continually repeating something diminishes its effect, and if it was incorrect at first, it still won't be correct.

There is no substitute for experience.

When you cease to learn, you cease to exist.

Back to my bleacher seat. *pc


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

Maybe we need to lock this thread. It really is going nowhere productive.......or is it just me?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Radar said:


> Maybe we need to lock this thread. It really is going nowhere productive.......or is it just me?


I *DON'T* think it should be locked......why? There are people in this Thread that are very against fish-in cycling and then there are others that are either not that much against it or not against it at all......I told the posters that say it's ok to fish-in cycle that I agree with them. Obviously agreeing wasn't the best thing to do, but I was being honest. 

I would still like to hear from those that do approve of it and that it worked for them.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

1/26:Took our water into Petsmart this afternoon for testing. 
pH: 7.8
Alkalinity: between 120-180
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0

Last time tested, 1/23, the Nitrate was 10 and the Ammonia was .5. Now, both are zero! 

A Guide we have says that our aquarium is doing fine, but will still wait awhile to get the Betta and test the water a few more times.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

DVader, i don't recall seeing your water change schedule right now, are you keeping ahead of the ammonia?


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Marshall said:


> DVader, i don't recall seeing your water change schedule right now, are you keeping ahead of the ammonia?


Just listed our test results from today! Won't do a water change for another week or two and then it will only be 1 gallon. This is only a 5 gallon aquarium we have! The aquarium was setup on Friday the 17th.......a little over a week ago.


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## Alasse (Mar 12, 2009)

DVader said:


> 1/26:Took our water into Petsmart this afternoon for testing.
> pH: 7.8
> Alkalinity: between 120-180
> Nitrate: 0
> ...


I fish in cycle, as I stated earlier 

Your tank isn't fine....you should have a Nitrate reading, that means its cycled. If all are at 0, something isn't right or your tank hasn't even started to cycle.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> I *DON'T*I would still like to hear from those that do approve of it and that it worked for them.


I've done it. It worked for me. Would I do it again, yes. With plants, of course. Otherwise known as a silent cycle. As long as I test my water...how can I go wrong? That is the key point.

Is the fishless cycle safer? Of course it is. Does it work? Yes. Both methods get you there, but one way has to have consideration for the safety of the fish. The other way takes that consideration out of the picture and one less worry for someone who may be new to all of this.

If a new aqaurists is at that crossroad where there is still no fish in the tank, this is where you will get the big push to go fishless...while the person still can. Or, after all of the fish have been killed and before they end up buying more and kill more...which has happened on here before.

The whole debate in this thread was brought on by one member that doesn't understand the nitrogen cycle. He not only tells newbies that they should not waste their time doing something like a fishless cycle, despite putting absolutely nothing at harm, he also tells them there is no need to test the water. When he post things like this he does so in what I would call a drive-by fashion that leaves the rest of us trying to explain how to do it and keep the fish safe, because he can't take the time to do it himself. Most of us who take the time to try and help people on here usually provide quite a bit of amplifying info to get them through their issues. He does none of this. If I came on here and said you don't need a light to grow plants and that was all I said without telling you how...does my post really have any worth if I don't explain?

So that is where the debate started. When he threw his $.02 of worthless info into the mix. This was a not a debate against one way or the other. Not really. You would have to know the history of this individual to get how it all ended up like this.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

DVader said:


> 1/26:Took our water into Petsmart this afternoon for testing.
> pH: 7.8
> Alkalinity: between 120-180
> Nitrate: 0
> ...


Did the place you took it to use strips to test the water?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Alasse said:


> I fish in cycle, as I stated earlier
> 
> Your tank isn't fine....you should have a Nitrate reading, that means its cycled. If all are at 0, something isn't right or your tank hasn't even started to cycle.


First ^^^^^^ comes from someone who does fish in cycle so they are not being argumentative.
Next before you become argumentative about the nitrogen cycle you better learn about it!
There is no way your NITRATES will go from any level to 0 without changing water!The cycle(actually the bacteria created by the cycle) do not remove NITRATES they CREATE NITRATES!Ammonia and NITRITES are removed by the beneficial bacteria(nitrosomona&nitrobacters).If the info you posted and said is correct as the "pet store" told you ,then strike one for them!
I find it funny you editted out where you said you won't listen to just one person and how old you are and thats not how you are now,as you really do seem to have "hung your hat" on a group of people most here have tried to warn you "may not really be on top of their game!"
Your tank is NOT fine,your tank has appearently not even begun to cycle and if you are really going cycle your tank completely with fish in it "SIT BACK AND RELAX" it appears you may only have 3-6 more weeks to go!
Any of those people at the store try to sell you TSS yet?Tetra Safe Start may actually speed things up a bit for fish in cycling,but the product itself is hit or miss,but does have some documentation on this site even.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

Your nitrates can only go down through water changes or a very heavy amount of plants. Someone preformed your test wrong if your nitrates have supposedly gone down.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, *BOTH*........ the two employees, who have an aquarium themselves, work in the aquarium area *AND* the Aquarium Water Guide I printed off of the Petsmart website say our aquarium is doing fine. 

The test was done with a test strip b/c I don't think any store dose the testing with API. 

One of the employees told me, when asked about the difference between strips and the liquid, said "I've used the API liquid and it's more accurate than the strips, but does take longer. People with smaller size aquariums and who aren't big hobbyist generally use the strips. Your "big-time" Aquarist's who absolutely love the hobby, have bigger than a 5 gallon one (like ours), and/or have more than one aquarium, usually use the API." 

I can understand what she is saying. If a person isn't going to be a big aquarium hobbyist, they aren't going to spend the money like a big hobbyist would. This 5 gallon will most likely be the only aquarium we will ever have. We live in an apartment, not a house. We had to try and find a place to put this 5 gallon one and finally found a place for it! 

Heck, I remember years ago, and may still happen, when people would win a Goldfish at a Fair by tossing a pingpong ball into a Goldfish bowl. If it went in, they'd win a Goldfish. You wouldn't get the bowl, but you'd get a Goldfish in a bag of water to take home. People would buy a Goldfish bowl, plop the thing in it, feed it and that was it! 

Anyway, I know what you folks say, what the Petsmart employees say and what the Petsmart Water Guide says about water testing levels. This can *REALLY* be *question!!!


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

you mean this guide: Aquarium Water Care Guide | PetSmart

the one that says normal levels of ammonia are 0-0.25mg/L and nitrites are 0-1mg/L, and tells you to replace the filter media once a month.

the only thing petsmart wants is your money


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Some stores DO use liquid tests. To me it shows the level they actually care if they use liquid tests and that they are very aware how inaccurate strips can be. It shows their level of inexperience or cheapness of the store.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Marshall said:


> you mean this guide: Aquarium Water Care Guide | PetSmart
> 
> the one that says normal levels of ammonia are 0-0.25mg/L and nitrites are 0-1mg/L, and tells you to replace the filter media once a month.
> 
> the only thing petsmart wants is your money


LOL, fire the person who wrote this!


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, many of you are extremely knowledgeable about fish and aquariums, but, I *MUST* quit/leave your forum! I know that some of you will say or think, "good riddance!" and that is entirely up to you. As for my feeling, I've got *TOTALLY TIRD* of reading the "bad mouthing" and "trash talk" about the folks that work in the aquarium areas of Petsmart or other major pet stores. 

Thanks for the help you given us.


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## Marshall (Jul 8, 2013)

fond farewell sir, be sure to mention your extensive forum/Petsmart guide experience should you ever apply for work in the fish department


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

DVader said:


> Thanks for the help you given us.


I fear we were really no help to you as you seem bent on defending unknowledgable people.This is a shame for you and your fish.I guess all that's left is to wish you and your fish the best luck.I fear your going to need luck as you follow those who lead you in the wrong direction.
DVader;did you even read that info from petsmart?It clearly says 4-6 weeks to cycle fish in.Do you really believe since 1/17 that your tank is all good,and do you really believe what those employess have told you?


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Give it up, Tom. I have never seen someone defend people like that and take it personally when we said they were wrong. I guess the collective years of experience here still doesn't add up to the experience of some teeny-bopper in the Petsmart.

What do they call those people that just cruze through places to rile people up and start crap? I think the person was about 17-18 years old and guess where they worked???? Any guesses? Ah, yes - a troll. That is the word I was thinking of.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Although I "played nice" and "hard timed" DVader a bit, I'm not a quitter.He still may do well with only 1 betta in a 5g tank,but his path is not optimum.I feel for the people who are not connected and sort of "live in the past".It really may have been better back then,like you siad "ignorance is bliss"!That being said and as soft as I sound I think he is even too foolish to be a troll,idiot is word I thought you were going for.Maybe spam even,but I can't give that much credit(not real creative,and kind of sad).
I feel the need to add that I played nice and hard timed him ,but NEVER was untrue.You played pretty nice yourself jr(I like you better otherwise) see where it got you?LOL!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I know. I wasted some politeness.


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## Botiadancer (Dec 30, 2013)

You guys are too funny... and way too nice. 
All we can do is answer questions as though a new fisherkeeper who wants to learn is reading... and I am sure there was at least one... so we all collectively helped someone along the road towards being a successful fishkeeper.

Is the tragedy over? I'm sure there will be a Act II. Its in the script.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Nobody ever accused me of being way too nice, lol.


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Nobody ever accused me of being way too nice, lol.


You have softened up in the last year, must be love.*NA*


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## Fireman6982 (Jan 8, 2014)

Wow, as I go thru the bordom of waiting for my fishless cycle I have been reading as many threads as I can and trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible. Im not here to share any usefull information on the subject but what i would like to do is thank ALL of you for being willing to help out all of the new people that come here to learn. Before I even knew this sight existed My son got a 3gal tank for Christmas so we went out not knowing any better and bought fish. so in that tank we are doing a fish in cycle checking water every day and doing a 50% water change every 3 day. Then I liked the tank so well we decided to go get a bigger thank for the living room that I am now cycling fishless (the way I should have done with the smaller one if I had known). so long story short I have 2 tanks now in the cycling prosses so I will come back and give updates to how each go. Again the reason I stuck my nose into this thread was to say THANK YOU!!!!!!


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## Radar (Dec 13, 2013)

DVader said:


> Well, many of you are extremely knowledgeable about fish and aquariums, but, I *MUST* quit/leave your forum! I know that some of you will say or think, "good riddance!" and that is entirely up to you. As for my feeling, I've got *TOTALLY TIRD* of reading the "bad mouthing" and "trash talk" about the folks that work in the aquarium areas of Petsmart or other major pet stores.
> 
> Thanks for the help you given us.


Sorry to see you go. I do think this thread started to go in a bad direction and I am sorry for that. If it helps I do agree to an extent with what you are saying. I think one downside to online forums is it is easy to misinterpret one another. Having said that I also think that some are over critical of pet store employees and lump them all into one group . I am sure there are many fine people working in Petsmarts and Petcos around the world who do know what they are talking about at least more than I do. As far as cycling goes I myself took a few posts as offensive, but after working through it found that most was a matter of interpretation of online communications. There are two ways of doing it and both if done properly can be fine. Hope you do reconsider staying, but if you go I bid you well. Thanks for your contributions.


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## Threnjen (Jan 10, 2013)

This guy has been making the internet rounds. Every forum he posts on tells him the same thing from multiple people, but he is determined to do it his way.
ONE person SOMEWHERE (Petsmart?) told him not to do any water changes while his tank cycles with his betta, so that's what he is going to do, and to heck with the advice of everyone else.
I've found FOUR places now FOUR where the people give the exact same advice and it is disregarded. I don't understand why someone would ask for help and then be so dead set against it, but I guess that is his prerogative. It just seems like a waste of his time (and ours).
I could probably find more but I'm not going to keep wasting time on this.

I'm sure you wondered why I looked at all - he PMed me on another forum to tell me I was rude. Then I realized I had seen him here. Then I was just curious.


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## DVader (Jan 19, 2014)

Wow, apparently I said "goodby" in someone else's Thread. Oh well. 

Anyway, the aquarium and Betta are doing fine and so are my parameters! Had to shut off the mini heater as the water temp was up to 86 degrees and now it is 80 degrees, unless the aquarium light is on during the day and that adds two degrees. "Stormy" loves the Floating Betta Log that I put back in. Tomorrow we are going to buy another live plant and possibly the Master Kit. Did talk to a Rep from Tetra today and she told me their strips are comparable with the liquid testing. Heck, I don't know, but definitely want the best possible parameter results.

Anyway, after one more week I will be doing a water change.........that is how long Tetra says to wait in order for their SafeStart to take complete hold. 

Sorry if you folks thought that I wasn't listening to you, but, in ways, I was. I can understand how "fish loving folks" don't like fish-in cycling, but when SafeStart or QuckStart is used, and protecting the fish, I see no reason not to do it this way. Besides that, I hate smelling ammonia! I'm still listening to SOME of the advice I'm told at Petsmart, but also listening to a guy on another forum who really seems to know what he is talking about. And, yes, you all were right about being on too many forums........going to reduce that to the forum that I REALLY like. That is the one that this guy is on that I talk to over PM's and he replies the same way. 

You guys are very knowledgeable and I'm truly sorry about how "bullheaded" I was.


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## joecrouse (Feb 3, 2014)

ive been told the same advice at 2 different FS actually. 
One place wont even SELL a test kit with their new tanks and setups for new folks they also told me I don't need to change my water for about 2-3 months. and that I only needed water changes every month or so. I wont buy fish from them but I will buy plants and other stuff.


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## Allanira (Mar 28, 2014)

There is another way of doing a quicker cycle without putting harsh chemicals, or harming fish. Use fish food. I put a few flakes in a day. In a week I pop a test strip in to see if I have any nitrite or nitrate. If I do I put a few more flakes and wait. After a couple weeks my water is good to go for a couple fish. I test again in a week, and add a couple more fish if its good. It usually takes me a couple months and a lot of thinking on what I will put in a tank. This is for a 3 yr old. So I have to get colorful fish. My method has worked great. Even before havingkids I d use harsh chemicals. I use a dechlorinator and fish food. I get very ill when I even slightly smell ammonia. I use a little watered down vinegar, and baking soda to clean. So remember not everyone does things the same way. My grandfather taught me this when he raised minnows for us to fish with. Those minnows were the healthiest, best minnows I ever fished with too. He was back woods country too. So I learned how to do things right.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Allanira said:


> There is another way of doing a quicker cycle without putting harsh chemicals, or harming fish. Use fish food. I put a few flakes in a day. In a week I pop a test strip in to see if I have any nitrite or nitrate. If I do I put a few more flakes and wait. After a couple weeks my water is good to go for a couple fish. I test again in a week, and add a couple more fish if its good. It usually takes me a couple months and a lot of thinking on what I will put in a tank. This is for a 3 yr old. So I have to get colorful fish. My method has worked great. Even before havingkids I d use harsh chemicals. I use a dechlorinator and fish food. I get very ill when I even slightly smell ammonia. I use a little watered down vinegar, and baking soda to clean. So remember not everyone does things the same way. My grandfather taught me this when he raised minnows for us to fish with. Those minnows were the healthiest, best minnows I ever fished with too. He was back woods country too. So I learned how to do things right.


You can use shrimp also. Using food is not so good because the rate of decomposition is unpredictable and it makes one hell of a mess in your tank. I would say that it is the worse of all options, but it does work. Shrimp in a filter bag works better, at least the amount of shrimp remains constant.


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## Allanira (Mar 28, 2014)

I did forget the shrimp trick when I posted this. I did it with my cichlid tank. You can also use chicken in a sock too. Or the toe of pamty hose rather. Stinks really bad but it works.


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