# Opinions needed



## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Hi i had posed this question to the fish community on ball-pythons.net however they do not seem to have a very active fish forum so i pose my query now to all of you in qoute form 

"Hi all, at the moment i have a small 10 gallon tank with a baby african dwarf frog, two small angel fish, a dwarf pleco and an albino algea eater. I want to upgrade to a thirty gallon tall and add a plexiglass cave to it with a steep ledge that levels off about eleven inches from the top of the tank to a six inch ledge and extends about ten inches from the left side at the bottom. I was going to fill it to around four inches from the lid add a peacock eel and a small colony of cherry shrimp. i have checked out the ph and tempurature needs of them all and they are compatible in that manor. does this sound like a reasonable set up to you? and what if i were to add say 3 or 4 marbled hatchedfish? thanks in advance!!!! "

any opinions or input would be greatly appreciated!


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

OK. sorry for the dumb question. 
what are all the ledges for?

*question


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

It seems to me that the idea would eat up a lot of space to me. Your Angels need space as the tank you have them in is already much too small. Maybe if you did a drawing it would be better to visualize.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> It seems to me that the idea would eat up a lot of space to me. Your Angels need space as the tank you have them in is already much too small. Maybe if you did a drawing it would be better to visualize.


Well he said he wants to do this in a 30 gallon, but I still cant see why. 
the fish wont really "follow" the ledges. the frogs may use them to rest occasionally. To me its going to cost/require more that its ever going to be worth. But I wanted to hear what its for. 

BTW, I do agree. The Angels will need the space. You will notice they are happier when you put them in the 30G


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks for the info and sorry for the confusing description. heres a really bad paint drawing to explain. 










The legdes are more so that if the frogs leave the platform they have an easier way up and so that i can put plants and decor upon them. I wanted to black out the back section of the glass in the cave and the plexiglass as well to make the eel happier. the dimensions of the tank are 25 in high 24 in long and 12 in wide. the top platform would measure 6 inches and the bottom would extend from 9 or 10 inches from the left edge. And about halfway up the cliff i want to put lava moss and a cherry shrimp colony. Does this help any and well what do you think once again?


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

or what if i went straight to a 37 gallon tank?


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

I have two clawed African Dwarf Frogs, and I keep them in a 29 tall. They are just fine in there, and while I have seen them hanging out in the foliage in the upper part of my water column, I have never seen them sit on anything on the surface (I have chunks of riccia and solid floatillas of plant growth I know could support them). I've also heard from the LFS I bought them at that they are more of an aquatic amphibian and rarely go to the surface.

I would watch the tank - angels and algae eaters are semi-aggressive fish and might harass others in the tank if they get too crowded. Also, angels WILL eat red cherry shrimp (I've tried keeping them together, and the only time the RCS would come out of hiding was right after the angel got fed). Also, others like the eel might munch on RCS as well. It's a fish-eat-fish world out there.


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

So.. the RCS were'nt intended to be food? DOH! I just assumed that was why they were there. A semi-renewing food source for the fish..


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Thank you but i think you slightly missunderstood me, my frog is an african clawed not a dwarf and will reach anywhere from 2 to 5 inches. Also the water wouldnt end at the platfrom but between 5 to 7 inches above that (unsure as yet depending on feedback here and wether or not i get a few marbled hatchet fish). As for the RCS i was planning on them being food yes, as the frog, angel fish and peacock eel would all be very pleased with this i think. If this better defines what i meen, what do you think, would it be enough space for them?

(I also will be planting the tank with dwarf lily, lava moss, and sword plants)


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Sravis said:


> Thank you but i think you slightly missunderstood me, my frog is an african clawed not a dwarf and will reach anywhere from 2 to 5 inches. Also the water wouldnt end at the platfrom but between 5 to 7 inches above that (unsure as yet depending on feedback here and wether or not i get a few marbled hatchet fish). As for the RCS i was planning on them being food yes, as the frog, angel fish and peacock eel would all be very pleased with this i think. If this better defines what i meen, what do you think, would it be enough space for them?
> 
> (I also will be planting the tank with dwarf lily, lava moss, and sword plants)


RCS are expensive. If you're going to breed shrimp as a resident food source, consider fairy shrimp or having a separate tank to breed brine shrimp in. Also, I did misunderstand you when you said African clawed frog, however I don't really see the motivation behind a ramp and a submerged platform. Did you have some reason to put the ramp and platform in?


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## jerichodrum (Mar 23, 2011)

With everything you explained, I have to say... 
The cave is so you can see the eel all the time. 
The ramps are just resting/lounging ledges for the frogs. 
SURE. 
IF its going to be your show tank in the living room or den where guests see it. 
could be expensive, unless you have the know how to do it all yourself. 

I think you may need to have a separate supply of shrimp, incase they dont breed fast enough. Depending on your Angels, they could eat out the lot in 3 weeks or so. 

I definitely think you should make sure you can get ramp/cave out so if you EVER change your mind you can reuse the tank. (Just my thinking)


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## Totem44 (Mar 15, 2011)

You Mentioned getting a different tank, it would be better for you plan designs. You ledge will reach your desired height in less space, your gonna want all the room for your fish that swim a lot


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Awesome jerichodrum thats the kind of answer i was hoping for!! As i said i want to get a thirty gallon tall (found one for sixty seven dollars) to make this and the needed plexiglass for the ramp would only be about $25 and the aquarium grade silicon to secure it is sold at the pet shop up the way from me for $12. As for the shrimp, at almost four dollars a pop RCS are a bit on the expensive side, i had read that thay are the easiest to breed and often will whether you want them to or not so i figured they would make a good food source. Making your point valid i beleive that once i do make the switch i will use the smaller tank as a breeder tank. Thanks for all your help and when i do manage to upgrade my tank ill be sure to post some pics of the finished product


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## DocPoppi (Mar 4, 2011)

Thought I'd throw my opinion at ya too...
What about getting a piece of slate or long flat lava rock instead of plexi? Maybe cheaper, and easier to adjust, remove, and it won't look all crappy after a few months of being in the tank. It'll be much more natural plus you'll still be able to see the other side. And your frog will have a natural perch and climbing platform.... Um also those frogs can grow well over 5" in just a couple years and will EAT anything that fits in their mouths
Your build sounds fun and cool, I'm just a natural enviro fish fan.
Good luck


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

I like the way your idea sounds DocPoppi, however what would i use to secure said rock? i was thinking plexi because i figured since aquarium grade silicon can hold it up once its dried and that it is just caulkin it should be easy installation and removal. However i have never aplied or removed aquarium grade before, is it really that diffacult to use? Maybe i can make the ledges out of slate and the cliff plus platform out of plexi?


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## DocPoppi (Mar 4, 2011)

Glad you like the idea.... 
1st sorry I can't post any pic's, I'm without a PC and using my phone.
I was thinking that based on ur design pic u simply replace the angled ramp with "rock/slate" and could simply let it rest on side of tank. If you really
want the ledge, then u could do several things... Silicone or epoxy another piece of rock to rock, (creating the angle desired) silicon a piece to ur tank and rest the slate against, or make a small L bracket (a small shelf) of plexi and silicon that to ur tank and set the "ledge" rock on it for easy removal and cleaning.
Right now I'm in the process of setting up my shop to start making tank backgrounds as seen in YouTube "DYI cement aquarium backgrounds". But I am going to be making them out of the same arcrylic resin as most of the cave, pirate ship, skull, LFS supplies. It will take me a couple months yet. 
Glad to help and answer any questions, here or private message


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

What are you going to do to keep all the negative space under all that plexiglass clean? Otherwise, algae and dirty gravel will rule supreme in the cave.


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Gtm2007 I was thinking that i could use one of the magnetic cleaners but Docpoppi's idea fixes the cleaning problem most elegantly, via not connecting the actual cliff itself but instead a smaller ledge to hold its weight. Its perfect!!!!! i think i may stay with the plexi glass cliff so that i can see through the top area at least and maybe get a darker plexi for the bottom. You guys rock, thanks again!!!


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## WhiteGloveAquatics (Sep 3, 2009)

In due time the algae eater WILL start to pick at the fish in the tank, the tank size concerns me, I breed angels and dont own a 10g tank for them to use. They need a minimum of 30g each or 30g to a breeding pair, I also have NEVER seen an ADF out of the tank that didnt look like frog jerky. They dont come out of the water at all.
If you were to instead float a piece of cork or one of those turtle logs youd make all of em happy.


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

WhiteGlove, I believe you missed the premise of the ledge, the water will extend around 6 inches above it (also i originaly thought i was getting a dwarf for my 10 gal hence the upgrade). as for the angels (currently about quarter sized) Munch (my first) did nip at Snack (named for munch trying to make a snack of him) but they get along and swim in unisin now. Though i didnt realise they needed quite so much space. My algea eater (ironicaly named Artimis before i new) is a dwarf variety as well and shouldnt get beyond four inches (also have a small albino algea eater wont be more then 2 in). This only leads me to ask do you think that the setup would be to small for them to cohabitate at all?


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## DocPoppi (Mar 4, 2011)

Personally I think if you set up the bigger tank you wanted, and your shelf does not take up more than a 1/3 of swim space, then it should be a happy tank... Just be prepared to upgrade for the angles, think of it this way... an animal(s) can live in a very small space, barely big enough to turn in. Many are kept this way, but it is not humane. Be ready to give as much space as you can as they grow. 
I believe that someone that goes as far as you to make this, and make it work will do all that is required in upkeep, and that makes for happy peaceful tank dwellers.
Budha in your Tank


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Hahahaha, Budha is in my tank, literaly, thats so great. anywho,um what size tank would you suppose would be needed for my preffered array of aquatics?


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## DocPoppi (Mar 4, 2011)

Here's a good page on Angel's and care that seems to have some good guidlines. But I think you should be good with your 39/40gl tank for a good while.
I put a Budha in all my tanks, and that's my logo and business name... Trying to make it my signature line. Lookin forward to pics of ur build


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## DocPoppi (Mar 4, 2011)

Ha... I forgot the link... DOH!
Angelfish Care


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Awesome website Doc that info helps alot and im thinking that my 30 tall idea will work just fine at least for around the next year


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Your tank will eventually get to small for the angels, I agree. What I think you don't realize is that algae eaters - especially Chinese algae eaters (which I think are the albino ones) - are a semi-aggressive fish and WILL try and kill your other fish to make room for themselves, usually with great success. The angels might be able to stand up to them, but your other algae eater will inevitably perish. Just a warning.


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Thank you for the warning but the albino wont reach over 2 inches and the pleco not more than four so im not to worried, and im not brushing it off ill keep an eye on them now that i have been warned.


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

I looked up his type and its Adolfo's Corydoras 2 inches tops


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## Gizmo (Dec 6, 2010)

Good. I was worried you were talking about a Chinese Algae Eater (look up the name). CAE's and their bretheren SAE's don't even eat algae, primarily, yet they are sold as algae eaters alongside plecos. Algae Eaters aren't good tank mates for anything that can't withstand a beating, like tetras and other small tropical community fish. They do great, however, in a tank that has angels, barbs, danios, or other equally feisty fish.


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## Sravis (Mar 29, 2011)

Wow thanks for the heads up on that ill have to warn my girlfreind as she has one in her 10 gal at the moment. 11 inches is alotta fish after all.


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