# Fish keep dying off one by one.



## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

So here's a little history. I bought the Danio's as cycling fish, yes i know i shouldn't have but i was a complete noob at that time. that was back in January. They all survived the cycling process. and a few months after it was fully cycled They've been slowly dying off one by one. It's weird but one will get sick, go to the top left corner of the tank and just stay there until it dies. At the start it will sometimes come out to eat, but after a few days it stops eating. Once that one dies, then the next one starts the same process, never 2 at a time. It's really weird. Parameters are all spot on, the tank is not over stocked at all. There is plenty of filtration and airstones and plants. None of the other fish show ANY signs of anything bad. Just the Danios. I do regular water changes and everything correctly. There are no white spots, no fin rot, no curved spine(except for 1). Nothing, it's like they see one do it and when he dies they want to try it.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

Using a fish for a fish-in cycle actually shortens their lifespan quite a bit.(that's what I have my money on) 
Could you give us the actual specs of your tank? like the gallons the tank holds, a list of your inhabitants, your parameters (Ammo, Nitri, Nitra, and pH). and also your last addition and when it was.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Welcome mijotter, and sorry to hear of this problem...It can be said cycling with fish can and does often result in fish with shortened lives, but to hear they die one after another in steps...that doesn't sound like a cycle caused issue. So can you tell me about your tank, size, water conditions including...temp, ph, even general hardness if you know it. What is your water source and what changes have you made lately. Have you followed water changes or have you just started making water change since the setup. Kind regards Larry


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

pH - 7.9
Amm - o
Nit - 0
Nitrate - 15
Temp - 77
29 gal.
Stocked - 3 Zebra DAnios, 1 male betta, 2 odessa barbs, 4 kerri blues
Water is from the city tap treated with Prime
Last addition was the Kerri Blues about 3 months ago. they started dying off before that.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

danios are massively in bred as the stores sell as many as they can get. Often complete shipments are doomed.What is substrate as I've read of mass danio die offs in sand bottom tanks(don't really know why).I agree that fish used to cycle often have permanent internal injuries(kidney damage leading to failure) and shortened life spans.Possibly if danios are fish you desire you could search for "higher quality" store to obtain them from as many of the chain stores move them so fast they don't have time to die at the store(from shipping stress/or just poor quality).
On a side note Odessa barbs can be fairly tough,any chance they're harassing danios?


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

what is your water change history? Specs don't seem off enough to have this problem. and tank size OK for your fish. You started with 3 danio two have described deaths in a period of 10 months or one every 5 months. You should have one left and is he now acting in a strange way? Larry


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

No the Odessa's are actually very calm and playful. they don't harass anyone. And Larry sorry i didn't clarify, I actually started with 15. And no only have 3 left, soon to be 2 probably Admittedly my discipline on WC has been lacking, about once every other week. But still i don't think that would have this kind of effect. As they started this mass suicide it seems before i started lacking on WC. And only the danios are being affected and they're supposed to be one of the heartier fish.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Did the Danios all come from the same store? And it is only the Danios dying off, right?

Do you use strips to test your water?


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## gar1948 (Jan 25, 2012)

I'll just throw in my two cents here. If the other fish are doing well and just the danios are dying, I think they were all weakened by the high ammonia they lived through and as has been mentioned it does shorten their lives. If the other types of fish are doing ok I would just buy higher quality fish in the future.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Yeah they all came from the same store my LFS. No i use the AFI liquid test kit. Yes it is only the danios dying off. The barbs and the male betta have been in there since February and no issues.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

If you want to keep Danios then I would suggest you get them from another store that uses a different supplier or get them directly from a breeder yourself.


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

mijotter said:


> pH - 7.9
> Amm - o
> Nit - 0
> Nitrate - 15
> ...


We would still like to know how much water you usually change with your every other week PWC?
Charles H


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

about 15 - 20%


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

mijotter said:


> No the Odessa's are actually very calm and playful. they don't harass anyone. And Larry sorry i didn't clarify, I actually started with 15. And no only have 3 left, soon to be 2 probably Admittedly my discipline on WC has been lacking, about once every other week. But still i don't think that would have this kind of effect. As they started this mass suicide it seems before i started lacking on WC. And only the danios are being affected and they're supposed to be one of the heartier fish.


Mj, you've said yourself that you are lacking water changes but,i'd like to ask you something.? When the Danios go to the corner of the tank, stop eating and you 'know' it's going to die and there's no hope for it why don't you finish it off instead of it lingering. It only takes a few seconds.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

seeing inkmaker join in on post always leads me in one dirrection;camalanus.MIJOTTER I would search this disease and see if it is a possibility .If so charles"inkmaker" will certainly be able to help you.Hope this is not the case.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Ok so this morning I noticed one is starting to develop, what looks like curved spine. I looked up those Camallanus worms and I did not see any red anything from the fishs' anus, he is getting rather skinny though. 

Goldie I always hope there's a hope.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

ok scarry as this sounds(and not meant to scare you but please read and learn of this) is fish TB.I found this as I searched crooked spine in fish and more thouroughly searched fish TB.Heres one link and IT'S CONTAGIOUS TO PEOPLE!
Fish Tuberculosis
Hope this is not it as well.
Sorry to keep shooting out things to check for ,but this is of serious concern if possible.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

coralbandit, that's just reminded me when i was browsing a few Forums quite a while ago i read on quite a few where posters were talking about fish TB and quite a few it was just answering people asking about their sick fish. Most of them i saw were Danios.

Where does it really start from and why do you think fish get it. I'd never heard of it untill i read those Forums but they were posts about three years old because the Forums had collapsed


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Yeah I had looked in to that as well. What doesn't make sense to me is how they just keep going one by one and when they find a spot in the tank to just hover it's the spot that has the most flow, not a quiet spot. To me that doesn't make sense. He's starting to get pretty skinny as well. So are we ruling in TB?


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Upon further reading of disease (and unaware of the diseases time line) I feel it is a strong possibility.Please search fish TB and read as many links(and description of symptoms) as possible.Further more if you have any abrasions on hands or arms(and if it were me abrasion regardless) please protect yourself.Indications of transmitted to human is as simple as bumps on arm/hand or rash.Look for any discoloration in eyes ,or even slight "abrasions"/loss of scales.Most of other symptoms seem very close match.
Aquarium FD - Fish Tuberculosis (Curved Spine) - Disease Identification, Diagnosis & Treatment


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Possibly vitamin(calcium) deficiency.Although with 7.9 pH I guess TDS would at least be average if not above.But if TB is not how you feel this is another "common" ailment with danios.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

yeah TB seems to match up with everything i'm seein in the fish. curious that only the danios have been/are being affected. Do you know of any treatments, on that site it said there weren't much of any but there has to be. I should probably QT him huh?


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Are there any treatments for this?


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

coralbandit said:


> Possibly vitamin(calcium) deficiency. Although with 7.9 pH I guess TDS would at least be average if not above. But if TB is not how you feel this is another "common" ailment with danios.


I tend to agree with TB as it is something that can happen to individuals slowly over time. My first indication of it is seeing lesions on the body. Patches of a few scales that turn flesh color. The bacteria actually penetrate deeply into the flesh of the fish and become septic. The fish can't eat and getting Oxygen into the blood is difficult. Swimming into the current mimics trying to get away from something the fish doesn't like. 

10 to 15% every few weeks doesn't sound like much of a water change. None of the parameters we can measure gives us an indication of the organic molecules which build up over time. Your fish would be of better health with a 5 gallon change every week. If you step that up you might save the remaining Danios.

Charles H


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

I have heard that fish TB is contagious, and unfortunately, there is no known cure(that I know of) other than to euthanize as soon as symptoms arise.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

Well i found the fish floating around the tank. barely alive with the other fish nipping at him. I took him out and placed him in a bowl with mostly new water with a little of the tank water(i don't have a hospital tank). He keeps flipping over on his side and floating. once in a while he'll wag his tail and straighten out. Is there anything I can do for the poor little guy before he finally dies to maybe save him?


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

From what you're saying mi you can't do anything but please don't let him struggle. I'm sorry but please will you let him go, it's the kindest thing to do for him. I'm sorry.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Not likely at that stage. If you want to end his suffering, you could get a small glass full of ice and water, let it get really cold and then drop him in it. Should only last 3-4 seconds after that.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

as TB is bacterial ,in advanced stages (even mid stage) treatments are diffacult(for most bacterial disease).There is no known cure for fish TB so a cup of water with ice cubes is quickest most humane way to euthanise.I am unaware of what needs to take place in the aquarium(with existing fish but will search this out tonight).Very sorry for this and please watch your self around the aquarium water as stated before it is contagious to people.
I also agree with inkmaker on changing water,I personally feel it is far more important than our test indicate;To steal Charles signature;
Change As Much Water As Often As You Can.
People who change greater amounts of water have far less"issues" and need far less"store bought remedies".
Changing water is the cheapest best thing you can do for your fish and wallet.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Goldie; although specific cause for TB is not pinned down, most bacterial disease arise from poor water quality.Almost any disease can be traced to water quality,there are the imported(new infected fish) diseases, but often good water quality can overcome even these.THE FIRST STEP TO ALMOST ANY MEDICAL TREATMENT IS CHANGE 50%(or whatever/as they know the more they ask the less most will do)WATER ,AS REMOVAL OF BUILT UP NUTRIENTS GENERATES HEALTHIER STRONGER FISH.
MIJOTTER; This disease is widely reported in danios as I stated before, they are greatly inbred and sold as fast as they can be had.The occurance of this disease in wild caught danios is greatly less.Fish farms care only about numbers,not quality, I'm sorry for that .


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

After reading all my speculation: the fish could have been previously exposed to ammonia and had burnt gills before purchase and since all are from a random select group...as he may buy from a careless source (Jrman). A second exposure in a short time of their lives with damaged respiratory it could cause simular effects...but I have trouble with any speculations including my own when the fish die one after another and not in numbers (two or three at a time on the same day) even if it follows night with low O2 the fact remains there would be numbers somewhere beyond one dies after another one. There is no illness of that type, yet something is causing death...now what is it if not an illness or previously careless act and why only the danios? too many why's more questions than answers IMO. Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

LTruex; although without necropsy true diagnoses is often diffacult it would appear the cause for this OP was fish TB.This disease behaves differently than many others and even differently than other bacterial issues(fish TB is bacterial).The time line to deaths I'll admit to be the most hard to "digest",yet most if not all other symptoms matched up.
Danios to further discuss this seemingly "species specific" episode are raised on "fish farms" in large ponds without what most would consider "adequate" filtration(none).Water quality is a large(posssibly largest/or at least in aquarium most common) cause of bacterial infections.Water quality as I've mentioned at "fish farms" to be poor needs to have other factors taken into consideration.Further research of fishTB indicated that BIRD WASTE was of notable consideration and often led to infections seen, but not always properly diagnosed.In ponds without filtration,large amounts of fish and exposure to other contamanents(bird,and predacious mamal waste) it is safe to say these fish live in active sewage.There may also be a "genetic predispodition"for this issue among danios as much(more than half ) of the documentation I found specifically had danios as infected species.As diffacult as this seems to believe(only one species affected) I myself brought out melanoma in my swordtails through continued black to black breedings.Much research on that topic did not yield another single species of fish (regardless of color{IE:black mollies/or heavily pigmented Goldfish}) that would show or actively have same disease.Sometimes a predisposition lurks deep in fish often under properly controlled enviroments that never surfaces.I did not purchase a swordtail with melanoma, and it took generations to show itself.Through controlled breeding(seperating black males from black females)I have not seen this issue again, although I still breed the same fish.
Back to fish farms;They exercise little to no control over their breeding population as their ultimate goal is in how many fish they can produce, not how high a quality fish they can produce.The fish are massive inbred(very common with fish), but proven in many other animals to be genetically dangerous.Along the genetic predisposition avenue the latest craze"glo- fish"(a danio) have also shown fish TB.
Coincidence?I think not.


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## mijotter (Jul 26, 2011)

All you information is sound. What i can't get my mind around is. These Danio's survived the cycling, which regrettably was very stressful to the fish and myself. I sowre to myself that I would never do that again, i was a total noob at this point and listening to my LFS. They survived and thrived for months after it was cycled. Then started getting popped off one by one in almost systematic and seemingly methodical fashion. That really concerns me as I only have 2 Danio's left and hope the rest of my tank is not a infection pool


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Sorry to say info on what to do with your tank was very limited(I only found 1 source from a Dr./fishkeeper himself infected).The transmission could take months and possibly years to appear and also could take even longer to cure as this is so uncommon that few accurate studies are able to be conducted.The end game said "break down tank and dis-infect with clorox". Also stated since symptoms can take so long to show that euthanising all fish in tank to be safest procedure.Sorry for this and do what you will I'll try to get back to source and post link.Please wear rubber gloves,wash with soap after exposure to water and clean any(they listed bad cuticle/paper cuts even) with alcohol.
What do I do now - fish TB? - Yahoo! Answers
Go to this link(disregard the BS paragraph and answer) and go to bottom of page. Hit not satisfied with this answer search yahoo(all on bottom of page) and read info from Dr.
This seemed to be the only source that even took this issue seriously,I think our health is very serious.
Also search fish tb and read wikipedia, where they explain how diffacult (even on labratory slides{this disease eludes traditional staining techniques}) this disease is to detect and even have explaination of it's timeline(what we didn't understand).
I believe it is still in your tank as it is passed to healthy (unifected fish) by eating infected fish wasteall fish do this).Again sorry about your situation, but glad it may be properly dealt with ,with hopefully minimal consequences.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I understand that concern. The good thing is that no other fish are affected. If the Danios went through the cycle that really is the only difference of what fish have gone through in your tank. So the question is, did it really make that much of a difference? It seems the only place to point.

Some deaths you just can't explain away. The most important thing we can do is things to reduce stress. Stress weakens a fish's immunity to many things that lurk in our tanks. Keep that away and everything else is fairly easy. Poor maintenance, consistently high nitrates, fluctuating ph, fluctuating temp, etc (quite a few more I think) all cause stress. That is NOT to imply your fish experience any of this in your tank.

If Danios are a fish that you want to keep still, get some more. I would just make sure they are not coming from the same provider. Every death is a learning point. Evaluate it, make changes if you need to, and forever to endure to not experience it again.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

ok my link doesn't show the option on bottom of page; so search(specifically)
fish tb what to do with infected aquarium
then hit; what do I do now?-yahoo answers
the not satified with answer box WILL BE ON THE BOTTOM.
Tank safety/by Dr. Adrian Lawler aquantics
I feel this important.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

I admit not to have an indepth experience with the fish tb, and the symptoms that can mimic other illness, but being from the old school, before tb was an issue of great concerns...I have seen fish die from symptoms of simular nature, but again never one at a time (like a single assassin that must kill a host before it can attack another). With this please Coralbandit don't feel I making little of your knowledge on the subject. I just feel as Jrman83 that stress can kill in a manor of simular nature, yet the only thing that messes all this up is the singleness of kill one species that is not noted as _*not*_ being weak...This give full support to you Coralbandit with the statements of poor living condition from farms and offered a suggestion to buy from breeders not farms. I for one must find the cause of singular kills of one species (only species in tank to under go cycling in the tank) all other fish were added after the cycle...can that be a reason to feel the singleness is related to cycling with a fish...Again I can only relate to earlier days of cycling with fish in the tank, and it was a forgone expectation those fish wouldn't live a long life, but they gave their lives for others to live without fear of ammonia burning their ability to breath and live a long life. And thinking back on those days I never lost fish in a single manor over a period of time...I mean to say I could loose a single fish...yes, but if one went and it seemed another would start showing signs then another till two might die, but together. I just find it hard to get my brain around this as a single answer being tb. I realize your a breeder with more experience than I have on that subject...so I'm not trying to dispute, just asking to consider the possible cause may infact be lurking in his tank and when all the danios are gone...will it be gone? If that passes the mystery will pass and remain a mystery where I must accept tb as the cause. But if it suddenly hits any of his or her other fish...I must accept something else is at work in the tank. Thanks for all the information and links for further research, as this may be something I could see in the future. Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I have no prior knowledge of any of this only transferred info and links that I found.I believe given more time that the same (fish dying) will continue.My only explanation of danios only at this point is they were first.Fish TB does not operate on "normal disease" time line and therefore could still (according to links) be killing OP fish next year.Also after last post I made read that rainbows were considered highly suseptable to fish tb also.There is a post right now on this forum BUMPS ON ARMS , where that OP husband has been diagnosed with tb.Please read. I actually have concern for her(and household) if the tank still exist in "infected " state.All this influx of info really puts me on gaurd;although I change more water in a day then some will in two months, I also always have cuts on my hands(part of occupational hazard).It's real,it's out there ,it's diffacult if not impossible to cure in aquarium and is contagious to people.I'm usually one of the biggest skeptics but I'll error on the safe side of this one.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Oh Wow rainbow sharks and red tailed blacks are my most favored fish, though they fight often when together in the same tank...even a big tank. Thanks for the info Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

Rainbow fish like ;boesmani,trifaciata,blue, irian reds and dwarf rainbows .Not the rainbow sharks,but species known generically as Rainbows.This disease dates back to before 1920 and is a major issue in maryland bay I believe now where fishing is now being restricted or has warnings to "wear gloves" while handling fish.Like I said I have no prior knowledge of this issue but searched high and low and read enough( and many post on forums said "don't worry now that infected fish is gone") but that's not what the Dr. in link from yahoo said nor was it the impression I got from wikipedia as they noted this disease (specifically the micro organism) was very diffacult to even be noticed on labratory slides(they new what they were looking for).


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm still playing catchup since last raising fish from very early 1970. Then a rainbow was a rainbow shark at least the comon thought of the day if you asked to buy a rainbow that is what lfs would have been offered in those days. I will at least look at this subject, but if experts who know what they are looking for and have all the equipment (powerful quality microscopes) and the training, yet cannot find it, "diffacult to even be noticed on labratory slides(they new what they were looking for)." I really must research to add anymore to this subject...thanks for all the information Coralbandit. Larry


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Mijotter, I have one parting question for you, in the tank you cycled there was no other fish, and when you added no other fish or felt the cycle was over, can you recall what the (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) readings were? It would be most helpful in what is now going to be a search to find any other cause beyond tb that could be at the foundation of this problem. Kind regards and sorry to hear of your loss. In my search so far for alternative cuase and looking first into parasitic problems, I must ask aif you had snails at the time of cycling in your tank? Larry


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Coralbandit, I have looked at the site posted for fish tb, and frankly I find it vague for the symptoms cover the list from viral to parasitic symptoms. I did source on site that offers parasitic on Tetra disease that is shared by danios: Pleistophora and the symptoms include curved spine. I don't agree to take a single symptom such as curved spine and hold it to be the foundation to say it's fish tb. the fact it stays with a single source host species till it dies sounds parasitic, the fact it has attacked a weakened fish from cycling is parasitic behavior, the fact it causes loss of apetite to the point of stop eating, self issolation, and curved spin are all part of the symptoms to tetra disease. Don't take my word for it look into it and see for yourself it carries all the same symptoms to that of a parasite, not a fish disease called TB.
Would I recomend treatment based on that illness...yes with issolation of that fish, and since you have barbs in the tank, consider them to be a future risk for the parasite is in the tank substrait where it can lurk for a while...but the fish must become weakened for vulnerable attack. If you issolate the fish it's for a miniumum of 3 weeks, and note no specific cure is listed, but I would try salt treat methods before any attempt at chemicals as they have less catastophic impact on the fish, and you have lost so many it is just worth the try with nothing more too lose but may gain one life. Can these symptoms be found in other catastophic fish illness...absolutly yes. Now if you will give me gill slit slide samples, and a complete pathologist and parasitologist report I can be more specific. I want to add one more site with some specific treatment : Neon Tetra Disease; Sporozoan Fish Infection Larry


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Just to make sure this logs as a post notice change: please now follow the subject of FNT a false Neon Tetra disease Neon Tetra Disease; Sporozoan Fish Infection I feel this has more support than NT disease and offers hope for prevention. I forgot to mention this site specifically makes reference to cycling with a chemical assist (prime being mentioned in mj post) and could offers some addition support to cause. I really hope this helps mj...lots of luck Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

good find on NTD and FNTD. Here's what does not add up; op states no spots,or fin rot.Both NTD and FNTD symptoms are; lumps ,cyst,and swelling( along with other symptoms that do match).Also note for both is rapid and high mortallity rate.Both are also listed extremely(highly) contagious.Both definately don't fit timeline.I would try cure for FNTD as it also is bacterial and antibiotics have worked.I'm not 100% on fish TB just seemed like (and op agreed)symptoms match.To eliminate one or other treatment for FNTD should be attempted.As first fish death occured around march or april(I'll guess from info provided by op in first post) I still lean towards TB.If not FNTD and NTD there is no cure for that either and steralization of tank is recommended.I e mailed DR. A. Lawler who said fish TB could last" a long ,long time in aquarium even without host". I am aware of two illness you mention but don't feel the aquarium as a whole(all inhabitants) would have survived this long as both are listed as "rapid killers".I to like you keep reading and searching(looking for the answer) but feel only time or personal infection will truely answer this issue.As I've said I'm no expert by any means just an indulged fish head who tries to help.I honestly hope it's not fish TB,but can never be certain from where I sit.I am also still reading on any possible other option,unless op wants to say there were/are lumps,spots,or swelling I just don't see those two "fitting" description provided.
Thanks for help and interest I appreciate the sharing of knowledge and opinions,possibly one of us will find the answer before next death(I don't believe this op has solved his issue).Time will tell.
Thanks , Tom


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Not all symptoms match and that is not uncommon, but here is what I find interesting in following more links to fnt disease...death occure one after another not multiple, and some have reported body spine problems. and now seaching for symptoms when used with cycling products like prime. I really feel most symptoms follow those listed by mj. Sometime symptoms do vary as parasite change even develope alternate methods. and I will not be correct to say in the substrait more so if FNT its a fungus bacteria that may have come in with the fish food or type of foods. Now before you pick me appart on details of it don't follow something, all I ask is do a little trace it with me and see if it supports in general...then we can compare notes and determine if its not even important. Is that a fair statement. Larry


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

I do agree that there is chance of either you have mentioned.I have and still am reading of anything disease related.As I mentioned in last post ,for most of us(just keepers, not Dr.s or scientist)that to treat for FNTD and see deaths stop would be a huge indicator that it is indeed the cause.I have not ruled out anything as I to keep searching.I dig your persistence and can only admire your attention to others issues.I'm not going to be "personally" disputing your findings ,only hoping to share info I have found.Before the "change of hands" of this forum we had a member I personally consider to be one of the most informed,educated keeper/breeder I've ever met(navigator black), unfortunately he is no longer with us so conformation on tough issues is slim.That being noted I will add that the opinion of INKMAKER(who posted in this thread) ranks as highly with me as navs would.Charles(inkmaker) is incredibly informed and offers only advice that should in my opinion be considered fact without proper refute.I've sent him PM to ask him to weigh in again and look forward (still trying to learn from those with greater knowledge myself) to hearing from him on this also.Both your findings have merit and all diseases don't always show all symptoms,so I don't rule them out , just saying they lack a couple of pieces the op provided,both could be the issue,I just picked best match and op agreed, that in way is scientific proof ,just "the way the ball rolled".


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

No dispute was expected or implied and I too search for a good result and don't really care from where it comes. My interest was to find alterantives and parasites are always a good place to start, for they are the most creative with very short reproductive cycles and can pass on what is learned to the next generation which can modify its own symptoms and why I expect no symptoms to be exact...but even this I don't like to say it is the problem...to be sure I would need pathologist help and he must have a specimen to disect...I can do and understand some of this but don't have the scope or lab yet...and its not in my immediate plans of expendatures. I do think its a safe bet to treat with mehtalin blue your tank water in a qt tank but follow directions 30min. treatment twice per day. Have use same and know its not a risk product to use, yet it works. I'm still not able to find much about cycling products with fnt, and believe there is more to be found...Larry


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## tropicoolfish (Oct 18, 2012)

I had the same issue . I keep loseing cycle becauss of throwing out filter cartrages . be careful becaus a cycle can take couple of months to compleat . I bought a aqua clear filter wich has a sponge part that you only rince off with tank water so you never lose your cycle . Check for nitrit and amonia mine were sky high when i was shure my tank was cycled. Also the carbon reduces the afect of any buffers or nitrate removers you add . Once your tank is cycled carbon is useless other then removeing meds.
Do more water changes and buy a good test kit . I do water change every 9 days 25% and added live plants. Be careful of mini cycles and make shure your filter had a good biomedia that never gets thrown out.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, you guys really racking your brain on this. In my experience, a lot at first and a just a little every now and then now, fish deaths are usually much easier to explain than what you guys are referring to. As much as I wanted to believe it had to be something more, the explanation for my fish has almost always been the simplest one. 

I can trace my experiences with ich as doing things like adding very cold water straight from an outside hose (on well water) and then watching the temp drop nearly 10 degrees and come back up in less than 24hrs. And yes, Ich is more than likely in all of our tanks, all the time.....to other things just as foolish. 

Sometimes fish just have weak bloodlines. These all came from the same store and likely from the same supplier. Unless there is a Danio-specific killer out there, this seems the most likely to me. But I am by no means an expert. Curved spine can be seen in many different ailments. 

Sorry, let the brain-racking continue


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

I find it quite interesting though i have'nt yet caught up with all the posts but, i was reading this a couple of days ago and i didn't realise just how many Fish could fall victim of TB.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...zYCgCw&usg=AFQjCNELw6OcaKyHrzg1Bl0BAawGjDRnwg
This is really old and i don't know if it's accurate, i also have no idea if these Danios had it, that could only be proved by an Autopsy.

Just thinking about this subject in general, I do wonder just how many Diseases lay dormant in Fish but when Fish are stressed as most know they very often get sick. 
The fish I read were in when cycling the Tank so IMP they would be weakened anyway no matter what their dying of, that's why i'm so for fishless cycling.

In comparison to other types of family pets (dogs,cats etc) Fish are not hard work' unless 'they are brought from a bad supplier and arrive sick already or get sick shortly afterwards

Fish give us a lot of pleasure looking at them and all they need in return is appropriate diet and good water for the specific species. Just those two things, oh proper temperature.three things?


I also feel that each individual knows their' own' fish (or should do) and when looking at them really sick and feeling their on their way out, this is just myopinion but, i think that's the time to intervene and put the fish out of it's misery.
If you're dogs ill, it goes to the Vet and if theirs no hope the Dog is humanely helped on it's way (again,should be IMP)

I find it sad when i read people losing fish who maintain their tanks properly and trying desperately to save them possibly through an irresponsible seller , but when i read lack of water changing (no excuse for that) when needed and overstocking i only feel for the fish.
As i said they give us a lot of pleasure,they deserve that very small amount of work.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I agree with what you said about euthanizing fish. I look at it from a one fish vs whole comminuty kind of need. If the one threatens the entire community and you don't have a QT or plan to get one, remove. I used to run a QT myself about a year ago and used it a few times. I cured a few and lost a few. 

Depending on the severity of what I believe they have dictates what I do. If it was curved spine, NTD, Columnaris, etc...they get the ice water pretty fast.


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Jrman, if it were ich I wouldn't have wasted any time, but it's not an issue of ich...and you know that. You and I have gone thru pro and con session, and would really like to have a contribution for either perspective, as I too follow the most simple, and felt TB was not the only answer for this problem, so I offered another possiblity. It would help if you could suggest any others you may know of. I have and will use QT as part of my actual filtration system to the display tank...all valved it can be used all the time to filter function, or at any time valves cut off to issolate the tank for emergency or medial use. I use it that way because QT tanks are almost in the novelty category you have them and then they sit unused forever more...
One item I found on this FNT subject is being a fungus and introduced most often by food as one known source, that would seem to be something anyone would want to know that is loosing fish and what seems a mystery cause. Larry


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## inkmaker (Jun 10, 2009)

goldie said:


> I also feel that each individual knows their' own' fish (or should do) and when looking at them really sick and feeling their on their way out, this is just myopinion but, i think that's the time to intervene and put the fish out of it's misery.
> If you're dogs ill, it goes to the Vet and if theirs no hope the Dog is humanely helped on it's way (again,should be IMP)
> 
> I find it sad when i read people losing fish who maintain their tanks properly and trying desperately to save them possibly through an irresponsible seller , but when i read lack of water changing (no excuse for that) when needed and overstocking i only feel for the fish.
> As i said they give us a lot of pleasure,they deserve that very small amount of work.


Another important point not spoken here is that the sick fish, or infested fish is just pouring out the poison, the bacteria, or parasites that have caused it to be sick in the first place. It is an extremely virulent pathogen source to the remaining tank members.
It should be remembered some Parasites take several weeks to develop and others the fish are immune to until they are sufficiently stressed. Killifish and Velvet are excellent examples. There have been several times in the past 3 decades I have come home with new beautiful fish, drip acclimated them and added them to a 5 gallon tank that had no fish in it for 3 weeks and in the morning, every new fish in that tank is covered with Velvet. Not just tiny spots, the fish has turned rust colored. It took the stress of bagging them and letting them set for 3 days to trigger their immune system to shut down.

Treat the tank after changing a lot of water, get the sick fish out if it is isolated to one or a few individuals. Don't expose the rest of the tank members any longer than absolutely necessary to the source.

Charles H


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Not too much too soon...time is more a friend to us in this case if a parasite, yet if this is fungus, or bacteria the owner must find and rid the source, and again time works for us, but treating the tank, and doing to much too soon can stress the fish and that will have a bad impact on what fish remain. My personal thoughts are find the fungal or bacteria problem if possible, and could include changing foods for a little while. keep an eye on the remainig fish and maintain water changes often, but not to the point of stress or risk. See if a rental diatom is possible for lfs and use it. Those are my best offers to try before making any kind of all out attack. Larry


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

LTruex said:


> Jrman, if it were ich I wouldn't have wasted any time, but it's not an issue of ich...and you know that. You and I have gone thru pro and con session, and would really like to have a contribution for either perspective, as I too follow the most simple, and felt TB was not the only answer for this problem, so I offered another possiblity. It would help if you could suggest any others you may know of. I have and will use QT as part of my actual filtration system to the display tank...all valved it can be used all the time to filter function, or at any time valves cut off to issolate the tank for emergency or medial use. I use it that way because QT tanks are almost in the novelty category you have them and then they sit unused forever more...
> One item I found on this FNT subject is being a fungus and introduced most often by food as one known source, that would seem to be something anyone would want to know that is loosing fish and what seems a mystery cause. Larry


I've got no issue with what anyone has said. I just tend to believe things are more times more simple, than not. If I look at a fish and see something wrong with it and I could list 2-3 things it could be and unsure of which...my first inclination would be to go with the easiest to explain and treat accordingly. I'm not going to waste time trying to figure it out while the fish suffers away and potentially threatens others. I also may do nothing and wait and see. If the fish gets worse, whether I started to treat or not, I have no problem euthanizing.

It is not a recommendation to anyone. Just how I do it and how I look at things. Verifyable results of serious ailments are different....like I know I have had NTD in my tank before that killed about 10 Cardinals. I certainly don't speculate that I may have this one in a thousand problem in my tank....not comparing that to this thread. If it were me, I would have probably euthanized the remaining Danios for fear they did all have some ailment that they could potentially spread....but I would not recommend that to the OP either.


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## coralbandit (Jul 29, 2012)

OK; on QT tanks- no need have to one permanently set up , all you need is a cycled sponge filter.They are ready to use at any time and no maintenance,aquarium or container can be kept dry stored away;(avoiding the common temptation of making it another aquarium fully set up with stock{no longer QT}).
Second; most diseases that are known to be food related involve live food(I don't think OP was using live or even frozen food(most frozen foods aren't hazardous).
Third ;Time is only on OP side if waiting another couple weeks for next fish to die is timely.
Fourth;Water changes even 100% (done properly) are of no stress to fish .I really don't want anyone to think changing water is a stressful event as the lack of proper waterchanges and poor water quality really are the certain cause of this ailment(be it bacterial,fungal or even parasite).
There truely is the chance that the suggestion made by jrman(he did make suggestion of cause) that all stock were"defective" or poor quality or effected by the cycling process.These to if no-one can except the appearantly obvious(matched all symptoms I'll say again and satisfied the only person involved who actually gets to observe the "in question fish") are still possibilties.I'm sticking by TB and if the best argument against it is that it is rare the real numbers are a little frightening;If only including in the odds are true people who could have contact with this issue(discounting babies,small children and all who do not participate in "natural water activities") but including;fisherman,surfers ,people who swim in natural water bodies and aquarium keepers the odds drop to 250 out of 100,000.That's 25 out of 10000 or 1 out of 500.1 out of 500 not real bad odds;Bet you'd all buy powerball tickets at those odds.
I also agree with jrman just to say "if it were me".


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

It's bugging me so briefly lol>


1. Tank started cycling process January
10 Zebra Danios
5 Bloodfins

2.March 10th.
Very cloudy water, 'looked' green but some taken out showed it was Brown
PH 8.3
Sourse of water----------Well near Farms

3.May 27th

Using Accurel drops to try clear Brown Water (no result)

Still 10 Danios alive

Added 5 Bloodfins
1 Pleco

Was away for a while, came back to find Pleco dead with corpse nearly gone


4. August 23rd

Using Tetra Plant Fert

13 Danios 


5.Oct 22nd

Danios dying one at a time---------1 to 2 weeks apart

6.Nov 23rd

3 Danios still alive


7. Nov 25th

2 Danios still alive


I did say it was bugging me but thought to recap might help


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

and now Computers freezing up again so will try a restart again


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm good with all that has been said it is pro's and con's and that is all that can be asked of us all. Hope this exchange has been helpful for you MJ. Larry


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

Hello Larry
I'm agreeing that if it was me i would help them on their way, for want of a better word.It may sound harsh to some but the way i look at it is when so many Danios have died in exactly the same way and it sounds as if they suffered i just couldn't stand seeing that.

I know i'm going off track here but i'll give you an example

A few years ago I brought a new Koi which had been in quaranteen for 4 weeks with others new from Nigata. I then had it in quaranteen myself for 3 weeks, introduced it to the Pond and within 'i think' it was only about 2 weeks some of the Koi who had never suffered anything started being real sick. We got Defra in when i found one died overnight and they did an autopsy here ,took parts to analyse in the Lab. It was the Herpes Virus
All we could do was watch and because i knew the result of the tests as soon as one showed symptoms it was put to sleep. There was no cure out there for it so who was really upset (putting it mildly) while this was going on. We were but also the Koi were meaning if this wasn;t done they would have suffered even more. These were one foot plus Koi and it had to be done.

The connection i'm trying to make here about this situation is it's similar imp
If the owner of the fish is upset(hurting) by seeing this and the fish are suffering if it was me yes i would put an end to the suffering.

Hope you see where i'm coming from & must log off because the computers being a pain


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

goldie said:


> It's bugging me so briefly lol>
> 
> 
> 1. Tank started cycling process January
> ...


Nice...if I didn't have to scroll a whole page just to read it all


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

I wouldn't go with any diagnosis. None of us have yet to see a pic. Useless to try without one.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

jrman83 said:


> Nice...if I didn't have to scroll a whole page just to read it all


hahahaha

I


don't


know

what 

you


mean

Seriously though,yes it would be good to see pics & i still find this interesting


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## lonedove55 (Jan 25, 2012)

Found this thread vastly informative, so I googled a search for lifespan of danios and found this article of which the 5th paragraph is especially interesting:
Caring for Zebra Danios, by Peter McKane
I must agree with others here...exposure to ammonia is a likely culprit in the shortened lifespan. I have both zebra danios and longfin zebra danios. Longfins can not tolerate higher levels of nitrates, ie >40ppm (unfortunately, I found this out the hard way). Hope you find a solution to your problem.


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## goldie (Aug 4, 2012)

That is a great link lonedove and as you said the 5th Paragraph. Thanks for that


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## LTruex (Nov 8, 2012)

Welcome lonedove55, and nice article thanks for the find. Larry


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