# Proline vs Prime



## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

So I just wanted get some peoples opinions on two different products. As far as water conditioners go, which do you think is better: Proline or Prime? (Both are used to remove nitrogenous waste and chlorines..fyi) Pros, cons, experiences. Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Neither. RO/DI water is best. Additives to the water, like the ones you suggest tend to drive a skimmer nuts when they are initially put in the water.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

Well I'm not working with a typical aquarium. Its for a research project. I am having problems getting rid of Nitrites. It has been a month since the nitrites have formed, and I am wondering if it is the Proline i am using not properly working. I have always used Prime and had great results, but it seems like the Proline isn't having the effects that Prime has.


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## gar1948 (Jan 25, 2012)

If you are talking about a fresh water aquarium, I used prime in all the tanks when I worked in a pet store. It seems to help. That being said, the best thing you can do for nitrites is more water changes. I also use purigen in my heavily stocked 30 gal freshwater setup.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

Lol guess i should have given more info...okay so here is the complete low down.

I am working with a sheepshead minnow for a research project. I have them in a 15 gal tub (this is what we use for make-shift aquarium) with 2 corner filters supported by an air compressor that gives them way more air than they need.

Temperature: 19 C (required for what I am doing)
Salinity: 25 ppt (again, required for what I am doing)

The tank has been seeding for about a month and a half now. I originally kept the tank at 25 C, so that the starter fish and bacteria would be more productive. 

I have been doing 25, 33, and 50% water changes everyday (Depending on the nitrite levels). It has been a month and the tank is still not seeded. I have seeded many tanks before (at this temp and salinity), but it has never taken this long. With all my constant water changes, my fish are doing fine.

I've added proline the whole time, but THE LESS CHEMICALS THE BETTER. With that said, The nitrites were staying at 1.0 ppm, even after a water change and proline. At one point, I stopped feeding for 3 days, and the tanks continued to stay this high. The ammonia level did significantly drop, as well as nitrates. BUT THE NITRITES CONTINUE TO STAY THE SAME. 

So again, since I have been using proline to try and control the nitrites to no avail, is it maybe I have a bad batch of proline?


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Not for nothing, but when you start messing with a natural cycle of a tank, thats when you actually screw it up, and it takes longer than the customary 4-6 weeks. 
The tank will take care of it by itself, you have but to have patience. Nothing else in the tank? Are you cleaning the filters also? If so, stop. You need the filters to seed bacteria so that eats out the Nitites.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

The filters haven't been cleaned one time. The sheepshead minnow are the only things in the tank.


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

IMO I would relax with water changes, let the system cycle all the way through, by doing continuous water changes you stop the natural cycle, as long as the nitrite are not increasing pass your average 1.0 ppm then your cycle is just trying to mature. You should try adding rock and live sand it helps the natural cycling of your system.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

Well the system was has been at 1.0 ppm for a month now and doing the continuous water changes is what is keeping it there. Otherwise it was getting to 1.5 ppm. At 1.0 ppm the fish are going to be alot more stressed and vunerable to disease than at 0 ppm which is where I need it to be. 

Unfortunately adding live rock/sand is not an option for me. Because this is scientific research, as many factors need to be ruled out as possible including addition of any kind of substrate.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Wwlp, i know you don't want to hear this, but, the fish should have been left out until the cycle had been completed. Your filters are growing the needed bacteria for the tank, your just going to have to wait it out. And if your not using RO/DI water, your water changes may be adding Nitrites and other things to the water that are not wanted also. Have you tetsed your tap water?


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

Well the tanks were almost seeded before i added the fish. I had a spike in nitrites, but they had almost completely dissappeared and the nitrates has taken off. I only use de-ionized water when i make salt-water.


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

What are you using for your filtration system


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

My filtration system are corner filters...basically plastic containers that hold porous rock with filter floss on top. An air line forces air down into the bottom of the filter, where it then bubbles back up. The principle behind it is simple water displacement, unlike something like a canister filter, where water is actually intaken by the rotation of a magnet and expelled.


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

I use same filtration system, are you able to add a skimmer to the system or will it interfere with the research. If not a skimmer, then just continue doing 25% water changes because that's really all you can do to temporarily control nitrites and nitrates without adding other variables (more filtration) into the system. My guess is you just need to do water changes until your system matures even more and is able to control the nitrite problem without continuous water changes, my advice is just give it even more time, also the food you are feeding it might contain chemicals that boost nitrite levels, flake food and pellet foods usually do this.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

The skimmer would be a possibility, but I'd have to buy it, and I'd rather not. And your right about the food. I use the Tetraman Flakes, but unfortunately, I need to use this food to supplement their diet. 

However, since starting this post, I've been adding 3.5 g of Proline instead of the normal 2.5 g and in combination with water changes, it is having a significant difference. With that said, I don't plan on continuing the course due to the fact that I don't won't to stress the fish out more than needed. 

Thanks for the help guys. Got a lot of good info.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Although I have used prime in the one emergency situation I had, I do not recommend it or other chemicals as part of routine maintenance.

What I recommend is starting the tank balanced out with macro algaes right from the beginning. That way the macros will consume coarbon dioxide and return oxygen while consuming ammonia durint the initial cycle. Then after aerobic bacteria build up the macros will consume nitrates because that is the only nitrogen avaialble.

Before using macros I did get a nitrIte spike but found that by not feeding the fish the first week the nitrItes only lasted a few days.

my .02


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## Chandavi (Jun 12, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> Although I have used prime in the one emergency situation I had, I do not recommend it or other chemicals as part of routine maintenance.
> 
> What I recommend is starting the tank balanced out with macro algaes right from the beginning. That way the macros will consume coarbon dioxide and return oxygen while consuming ammonia durint the initial cycle. Then after aerobic bacteria build up the macros will consume nitrates because that is the only nitrogen avaialble.
> 
> ...


If you don't use Prime "or other chemicals," how do you deal with chloramines in your water supply? Or do you simply use 100% RO/DI and re-enrich with powdered mineral additives?


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Chandavi said:


> If you don't use Prime "or other chemicals," how do you deal with chloramines in your water supply? Or do you simply use 100% RO/DI and re-enrich with powdered mineral additives?


By letting the tank set for a week before adding fish.

then just topping off.

I do use the diy two part for calcium, alk, magnesium. And I used to dose a little bit of iron (ferris gluconate- 1 pill in an old single serving bottle- one capful each week).

Although RO/DI is supposed to be "necessary" for delicate hard corals, I have found this method works definately for any fish. I have used it in 1/2 dozens cities as I moved around in the air force. So as long as the tap water is potable it should be fine. Plus our current tap water does use chlorimines.


my .02


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## Chandavi (Jun 12, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> By letting the tank set for a week before adding fish.


I will note that this method will only lead to a decomposition of about 50% of the chloramines in the water, even over a week's time. I would direct you to a short paper on the topic here. While chloramines _do_ decompose over time without assistance, it is not nearly as much as people might think. Additionally, an equilibrium point is eventually reached and very little decomposition occurs after that point. As I understand it, prime contains a catalyst which drives this reaction at a much faster rate and further removes the products of the reaction. This allows the decomposition to continue to a much greater extent than it ever would have naturally, even if you left the water alone for weeks on end.

If it works for you then it works for you, but I felt that this should be mentioned. Since the OP is also apparently working in a scientific field with these products, a further understanding of chloramine composition might prove useful knowledge in the future.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Chandavi said:


> I will note that this method will only lead to a decomposition of about 50% of the chloramines in the water, even over a week's time. I would direct you to a short paper on the topic here. While chloramines _do_ decompose over time without assistance, it is not nearly as much as people might think. Additionally, an equilibrium point is eventually reached and very little decomposition occurs after that point. As I understand it, prime contains a catalyst which drives this reaction at a much faster rate and further removes the products of the reaction. This allows the decomposition to continue to a much greater extent than it ever would have naturally, even if you left the water alone for weeks on end.
> 
> If it works for you then it works for you, but I felt that this should be mentioned. Since the OP is also apparently working in a scientific field with these products, a further understanding of chloramine composition might prove useful knowledge in the future.


Bravo!! Excellent post!!
*thumbsup thanx


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## fishman81 (Jan 12, 2011)

Nick1258 said:


> IMO I would relax with water changes, let the system cycle all the way through, by doing continuous water changes you stop the natural cycle, as long as the nitrite are not increasing pass your average 1.0 ppm then your cycle is just trying to mature. You should try adding rock and live sand it helps the natural cycling of your system.


I call BS on this. I'm not proud of it but i setup a 55g tank and in a weeks time had it fully stocked and no fish died due to amonia/nitritre or nitrate. I did many 50% water changes, sometimes on a daily basis to keep the amonia down. Seeded it with gravel from another tank, and tank was fine on it's own in 2 months time.


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## elasmokid (Jan 30, 2012)

Good info Chandavi...glad to see a paper for support to *thumbsup thanx. At my university every lab has a special faucet with diH2O. So I guess you could say we have a built in RO/DI system in our water system, so I can make salt water with DI-water anytime, and never have to worry about chlorimines (or shouldn't hopefully lol).


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

fishman81 said:


> I call BS on this. I'm not proud of it but i setup a 55g tank and in a weeks time had it fully stocked and no fish died due to amonia/nitritre or nitrate. I did many 50% water changes, sometimes on a daily basis to keep the amonia down. Seeded it with gravel from another tank, and tank was fine on it's own in 2 months time.


Well there is something called luck. Water changes can definitely be a disturbance to the systems natural cycle, although I have had luck with my 29 biocube reef tank and my 55 reef tank and had them full of rock, coral and fish within 6 months, both with no problems, just did some water changes every now and then, I tried it on my 180 wasn't as lucky had spikes in nitrites for a while until I let sit and filter without water changes it began to decrease on its own. 

But in this case his water changes were obviously not affective, so when that happens there are other solutions, the simplest is rock (Live Rock for Saltwater Aquariums). The ways I controlled mine on my 180 was I bought a skimmer and added a lot of rock, after a few weeks the nitrites decreased. Tanks don't always function the same.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nick1258 said:


> Well there is something called luck. Water changes can definitely be a disturbance to the systems natural cycle, although I have had luck with my 29 biocube reef tank and my 55 reef tank and had them full of rock, coral and fish within 6 months, both with no problems, just did some water changes every now and then, I tried it on my 180 wasn't as lucky had spikes in nitrites for a while until I let sit and filter without water changes it began to decrease on its own.
> 
> But in this case his water changes were obviously not affective, so when that happens there are other solutions, the simplest is rock (Live Rock for Saltwater Aquariums). The ways I controlled mine on my 180 was I bought a skimmer and added a lot of rock, after a few weeks the nitrites decreased. Tanks don't always function the same.


Totally agree here.

Fishman81, just because the fish survived does not mean you didn't put them through hell in doing what you did. Ammonia is the most damaging to the gills of the fish, and you probably did do damage to them, and put them through a great amount of stress, but, like Nick said, sometimes you get lucky. Sorry bro, thats why things are done a certain way, to keep the inhabitants healthy, healthy and stress free.


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## fishman81 (Jan 12, 2011)

Reefing Madness said:


> Totally agree here.
> 
> Fishman81, just because the fish survived does not mean you didn't put them through hell in doing what you did. Ammonia is the most damaging to the gills of the fish, and you probably did do damage to them, and put them through a great amount of stress, but, like Nick said, sometimes you get lucky. Sorry bro, thats why things are done a certain way, to keep the inhabitants healthy, healthy and stress free.


monitored the amonia everyday including nitrate and nitrate and 95% of the time amonia and nitrite were unmeasureable. I'm not giving out what i said as advice, just saying as long as your not dealing with teretorialism and such between fish, stocking is relative to how many water changes your willing to do. This is evident in lakes, streams, oceans, more water = less amonia.


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

fishman81 said:


> monitored the amonia everyday including nitrate and nitrate and 95% of the time amonia and nitrite were unmeasureable. I'm not giving out what i said as advice, just saying as long as your not dealing with teretorialism and such between fish, stocking is relative to how many water changes your willing to do. This is evident in lakes, streams, oceans, more water = less amonia.


This is true and I do agree water changes are a good way to take out ammonia and nitrites and other harmful things out of the tank, but in some cases ammonia and nitrite levels will increase faster than the you can keep up with water changes. And my point of view was that the nitrite level increasing may be due to the person who has the tank doing something wrong or can be doing something better, for example like over feeding could have been a big contribution to the increase in nitrite levels and ammonia. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong just give my opinion and my knowledge I'm open to criticism. Hope this helps.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Welp, both cases into account. But, looking down the road, your not letting the improtant key to take hold. Nitrates. You must have enough of them to sustain the environment, by changing out the water so frequently, your messing with nature and its way of dealing with the situation on its own, thus extending the cycle. That is why we preach patience, I know it sucks waiting for a new tank to get it over with, but, its been proven time and time again, the more you screw with a new tank, the longer it usually takes to cycle.


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nick1258 said:


> Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.


*rotating smile


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Nick1258 said:


> Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.


IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.

the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. then to convert nitrates to fish food.

my .02


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

beaslbob said:


> IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.
> 
> the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. *then to convert nitrates to fish food.*my .02


Again, try and keep up here Bob. we are already talking about a new tank, and trying to keep those parameters in check, thus doing water changes to lesson that impact.

Also, care to try and explain that which is highlighted in your post. This I must hear.


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## beaslbob (May 29, 2009)

Reefing Madness said:


> Again, try and keep up here Bob. we are already talking about a new tank, and trying to keep those parameters in check, thus doing water changes to lesson that impact.
> 
> Also, care to try and explain that which is highlighted in your post. This I must hear.


Ref:



beaslbob said:


> IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.
> 
> the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. *then to convert nitrates to fish food*.


Plants and algae if not directly consumed by fish, snails, and other animals provide an environment for pods, snail eggs, and so on which are consumed by the fish.

So ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, carbon dioxide are consumed by the various plant life and recycled into oxygen and fish food.


Just like everywhere else on earth. *old dude

my .02


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## Nick1258 (Jul 5, 2012)

... Fish tanks are different from things like gardens poop help plants grow yes, but ammonia in a fish tank is a different story, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates if not taken care don't get better in a matured tank it gets worse and will slowly kill your tank the tank only sustains itself for a fairly short period of time before it gets out of hand and you need to assist it. The closest to me doing something like this and letting my tank sustain itself was with my biocube I left my house for 2.5 months on a trip and only had my neighbor feed my fish (I know not that responsible), but in that period 50% of my coral and fish died. (it was my first tank, and my neighbor didn't really keep me noticed). I tested Water and everything was very high, so much for sustaining itself.


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## Reefing Madness (Aug 12, 2011)

Nick1258 said:


> ... Fish tanks are different from things like gardens poop help plants grow yes, but ammonia in a fish tank is a different story, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates if not taken care don't get better in a matured tank it gets worse and will slowly kill your tank the tank only sustains itself for a fairly short period of time before it gets out of hand and you need to assist it. The closest to me doing something like this and letting my tank sustain itself was with my biocube I left my house for 2.5 months on a trip and only had my neighbor feed my fish (I know not that responsible), but in that period 50% of my coral and fish died. (it was my first tank, and my neighbor didn't really keep me noticed). I tested Water and everything was very high, so much for sustaining itself.


You should see BOBs tanks, you would understand why I pound on him not to post that gibberish on here.


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## Aquapparel (Oct 11, 2012)

Haven't tried Proline but I really like Prime.


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