# To late to correct mistake?



## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello all! I am new to the hobby, and was sort of thrust into it by a "gift" given to my son by his grandparents. They sent him home with a male betta in one of those small bowls you see them sold in at the store. 

A neighbor gave us an old aquarium when she heard about the fish. Thinking that the fish would be much more comfortable in that, I ran to the local Petstore, bought some gravel, plastic plants, and a filter. I also bought a heater and dechlorinator recommended by the staff. I also bought 3 otocinclus catfish, thinking they would clean the tank.

I set the tank up, then added the dechlorinator and the fish. Then, I started reading about the hobby, and almost immediately realized I've made some serious mistakes. I should have cycled the tank before adding fish. I've also read that the tank may be to big for the betta, and tht the betta and the catfish may not get along ( I thought betas only fought other bettas). After reading, I went back to the store and bought a bigger heater and a bottle of Tetra safe start. I also bought a water test kit that checks ph, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia.

The aquarium is 25 gallons (24x12x20.5). My filter is an Aqueon QuietFlow 55/75, my heater is a 150 watt also made by Aqueon. My first water test results were: ammonia 0, nitrate 0, nitrite 0, ph 7.6. The fish have been in the aquarium for two days. I fed the catfish an algae water and the betta some betta pellets, but none seem to be eating.

I know I made some mistakes on the front end, but I would be so grateful for some advice on making the best of them. Can the fish be saved?


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## Sayonarax (Aug 17, 2012)

FrshwtrAR said:


> Hello all! I am new to the hobby, and was sort of thrust into it by a "gift" given to my son by his grandparents. They sent him home with a male betta in one of those small bowls you see them sold in at the store.
> 
> A neighbor gave us an old aquarium when she heard about the fish. Thinking that the fish would be much more comfortable in that, I ran to the local Petstore, bought some gravel, plastic plants, and a filter. I also bought a heater and dechlorinator recommended by the staff. I also bought 3 otocinclus catfish, thinking they would clean the tank.
> 
> ...


Your tank size is fine, you might want to buy real plants.. Your water is fine, just test it every day since you got a kit. Sorry cant help anymore with your fish as i don't own a betta. I know they attack fish with fan tail fins, as they look like other males to them. I bet you've already spent more the grand parents  Enjoy im sure youll both enjoy learning together.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

You are in good shape, with four fish in a 25. I would do some water changes - 25% a couple of times a week to start, but you should get through the cycle. Otos are delicate, Bettas aren't and I see no likelihood of aggression. The big thing is to recognize there will be new tank pollution problems for upwards of six weeks, and go slow, steady and methodically with the water changes. 
You'll need at least a few live plants with Otos though.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you both! That makes me feel better. I thought I'd doomed 4 fish for sure! Are there plants I can add without having to change my lights or add co2? Any ideas for more fish later that would work with the four I have now? The pet store said I could go with one inch of fish per gallon. The fish I have now are no more than 2 inches long. 12 fish seems like a lot.


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## Manafel (Sep 4, 2011)

well the 1 inch per gallon rule really isn't very accurate. so I wouldn't go on it. You can buy some low light plants like java fern and they wouldn't require you to change anything about your setup.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks manafel...guess I should've known since it was the same store that sold the betta in a bowl that was roughly the same size as the period at the end of this sentence. What would you recommend?


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

You get caught on the nature of an inch...what do you do with a fish that is one inch long, but one inch high? And if it's half an inch wide? Is it 2 and a half inches?
My rule is a frustrating one - calculate how many fish you can keep by looking up their eventual full-grown size, then calculating at one inch per gallon. When you arrive at a total, cut it in half.
The less time you have been in the hobby, the more fish you want per gallon. 
So the less you like minimal stocking formulas. There is no set rule - you can easily keep 15 healthy cardinals in a 15 gallon. Line them up head to tail, and you have more than 15 inches. But one three inch cichlid may suffer in a 15. My five inch Geophagine cichlids need 20 gallons each, or else. I have 5 in a 120. In the same tank, minus the cichlids, I could have 200 normani lampeye killies. It's relative.


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## gar1948 (Jan 25, 2012)

I agree java fern is a great low light plant. It will grow and multiply with no addition of fertilizers. Whatever fish you add, do it very slowly just 2 or 3 at a time to allow the tank to adjust.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks navigator black. That kind of info is why I joined the forum! I think that makes since...a 12 inch koi does not equal 12 neon tetras.

...and thank you gar1948. So no need to add co2 for java ferns? How about special lighting? I like the plants that look like a grass carpet. Are those plants suitable for a beginner?


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## dalfed (Apr 8, 2012)

Most of the grass carpets require more light. You could try a java moss carpet maybe. Anacharis is a very easy low light high nutrient consumer that will help in the cycling of your tank.


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## SuckMyCichlids (Nov 5, 2011)

There's no such thing as a tank too big for a fish in my opinion lol, sounds like you got a decent setup now and you got yourself a test kit, is it a liquid one? The strips are pretty inaccurate and I hope that tetra safe start helps you like it did for me when I started, I was hung up on the nitrite stage and it cleared it up for me within 24hrs


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

The kit I bought is the API master test kit. It includes tests for ph, high range ph (any one know why those are separate tests by the way) ammonia, nitrate and nitrite. Any experience with this kit? It takes some time to run all the tests, but pretty cool to see the results.


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## Sayonarax (Aug 17, 2012)

Im not sure what kind of plants they have in the states. My local sells smalll ones i just replace when needed, its like 10-12 for $3. My goldfish dig them up all the time so as long as you got at least 20w of light the plants will be fine, but don't really expect them to grow. Plants are natural and fish lovem, they have many benefits.


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

Plants are like anything else - you generally pay more for quality. If you don't have a lot of lighting, you can go with plants from shaded waters. They are always more expensive, because you don't replace them as often as cutting from light hungry plants. Anubias, Cryptocrynes, Bolbitis, Java Ferns and some small grassy plants will grow with basic light. You invest a few bucks more, and you may have to buy online (look around the forum) but you get beautiful plants that don't need CO2 or brilliant lighting. 
I have stands of Bolbitis I paid $10 each for in 1992 - I've sold a couple of hundred's worth out of them since then and they are big, beautiful plants. In that time, I could easily have spent $3 every 3 months on cheap cuttings I would have killed since I like lower lighting levels. $3 now versus $10 now looks big, but this is a hobby you can enjoy long term.


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## zero (Mar 27, 2012)

you need to be careful on the things you put in the tank like plants or ornaments as the bettas fins are very delicate and can rip easy. to test, run a pair of tights over them and if it snags file it down with a nail file. also make sure you have a plant that goes right up to the surface that the betta can sleep on as they breathe air direct from the surface of the water and its a pain for them to have to keep swimming up to the surface when they sleep. i have a betta with guppies so the long fin thing is not technically true, it all dependents on the individual fish i guess.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks guys and gals. Vi really like the looks of some of the planted tanks I see in the photo gallery. I think I may try some java fern, java moss and anacharis to start. That way I can try my hand at it without messin with the co2. Two more questions about plants: 

1. Can you poison or asphyxiated your fish by overdoing co2 in a planted tank?

2. Are plants like fish in that you can overcrowd them?


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## SueD (Aug 4, 2012)

I don't use Co2 so I don't really know much about how it is done. But from what I've read, things can go wrong if it's not properly regulated. I use Seachem's Excel as a substitute, but someone who knows what they're talking about will probably answer this.

As far as plants go, you'll want to make sure that the light can reach all of the plantings, that the taller ones aren't shading out the lower ones. And there are those that spread by sending out runners, such as pygmy chain swords and other "carpeting" plants. Depending on the look you are going for, you'll want to leave room for these to spread. Other than that, if there's room to plant, go for it. I've seen some gorgeous tanks and have wondered how they managed to fit everything in there.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Guys, the ottos aren't eating at all. I've tried hikari algae wafers and slices of cucumber. Should I give it a few more days to see if they'll eat? The tanks been up for almost 5 days now. Is there a way to grow some natural algae fairly quickly? I'm kind of afraid to put plants in yet, because I've read that they compete with algae for nutrients.


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## majerah1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Didnt read all the way down so forgive me if what I say has been said.

I am not sure who started the rumor about tanks being too big for a fish... Ive a female betta in a 29 gallon and she couldnt be happier. I think if you add real plants, easy to care for ones then everything will be just fine. Regarding the betta, they come from rice paddies. They are not very deep ( about the knees) but expansive! they spread for acres! So yeah dont ever worry about a tank being too big.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Bad news today...lost my betta. He'd just started eating a few of his pellets yesterday. This morning, he was laying on the bottom of the tank. When I got home, he was dead. I checked my water...80 degrees/ammonia 0.25/ph 7.6/nitrite 0/nitrate 0. The ottos are still active, but still not eating. I did a 20% water change after removing the betta. (the water checks were done before the water change.)


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## Emphino (Aug 28, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the loss buddy beautiful fish betta are. I hope your tank cycles quick enough for the otto's, how'd your son take it?


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## swbernstel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sorry about the loss. A really easy to keep plant i haven't seen mentioned yet is Hornwort. All it needs is a little light for a few hours a day and it'll do fine, no ferts, no CO2. 

And if you really want to get some algae growing, just leave the light on. I'm not necessarily saying this would be the best thing to do, but it will surely get some algae growth going on. The more seasoned aquarists can tell you whether or not this is a good idea. 

I wish you the best.


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## Chididdy123 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sorry about the betta, but i have noticed that no one else has said anything about proper acclimation when putting new fish in to the tank. So if you decide to get another betta or fish, make sure you follow the guide in this thread. it is very helpful. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f2/drip-acclimating-fish-11327.html


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## navigator black (Jan 3, 2012)

There are two schools on drip acclimation. I'm from the other one.

To me, you never allow pet store water into your tank. It's parasite juice. And you have to get the fish out of the ammonia build up fast. If I buy locally, then I know the store and I are on the same water system. If the temperature is equalized with a 3 degrees or if my tank is warmer, I pour the bag through a net, carry the net to the tank and put the fish in. I dump the water from the store into the houseplants. 
With close to 40 aquariums and 45 years in the hobby, I don't lose fish to acclimation. Ever. No pH shock or distress. My tanks are changed 25-30% every week, so the new environment is clean. 

You have to figure the process I use has been used when the fish were caught, arrived from the farm/wild and arrived at the store. Importers and wholesalers can receive 100 boxes full of bags daily, and no one drip acclimates anything but wild Bettas and Nothobranchius killies. Fish get in trouble when they have been fed before bagging, and they are left to sit in ammonia filled water.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

That may have been the problem. I didn't do any type of acclimation. The betta was in a small bowl when we got him. I just filled the aquarium, heated it to 80degrees, dechlorinated, and put him in. I'll pay more attention to this in the future.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm holding off on more fish for now, because my test kit shows an ammonia reading of between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm. It also shows a ph of 7.6, nitrate 0 and nitrate 0. I'm still doing a 20% water change every other day, and I have installed a bubble wand for increased oxygenation. My three otos seem to be doing well. They won't touch the algae wafers, but I often see them on the cucumber slices I've been feeding them. I like the idea of leaving the light on to help grow algae. It makes since. Do you think I'll stress the fish if I leave it on 24 hours a day for 3-4 days?

Also, here's how I'd like to stock the tank once it's cycled:
6 otos
6 ghost shrimp
3 Cory cats
12 neon tetras
7 zebra danios

I'd like to hear what you all think about this idea. I'm very open to other stocking suggestions too!


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

navigator black said:


> There are two schools on drip acclimation. I'm from the other one.
> 
> To me, you never allow pet store water into your tank. It's parasite juice. And you have to get the fish out of the ammonia build up fast. If I buy locally, then I know the store and I are on the same water system. If the temperature is equalized with a 3 degrees or if my tank is warmer, I pour the bag through a net, carry the net to the tank and put the fish in. I dump the water from the store into the houseplants.
> With close to 40 aquariums and 45 years in the hobby, I don't lose fish to acclimation. Ever. No pH shock or distress. My tanks are changed 25-30% every week, so the new environment is clean.
> ...


On the other hand, drip acclimation doesn't usually cause any more harm or stress IMO. So why not do it if it were just an added step to get the fish suited to your water? I've seen acclimation threads get a little testy on some other sites I go to as some don't believe in it because the fish is yet again longer sitting in the water it has been in for 24-36hrs and potentially pretty nasty. Hard to sort through the right or the wrong.

Only thing I know from just going a few miles away at a few local stores where I used to get a lot of fish, once I started drip acclimating everything I got as a standard procedure my losses greatly declined. Before it seemed there was at least a 25% chance that a fish could die within 3-4 days of the store. Difficult to ask the fish if it helped it, but the only thing now that I ever have a chance of losing shortly after getting from a store is Cardinals, which seem to be half-dead when you get them anyway.

Maybe there is no right or wrong way. We all do what works for us.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Your ammonia is getting high, and so I wouldn't do anything fish wise until it properly cycles. I'm sorry you lost the beta, they are awesome fish. Once your tank settles down and your cycle is established, you should be fine. I've found .25 ammonia is the problem point for fish in a cycling tank. If you can keep the ammonia just below that, most hardy fish make it through. I've found betas to be really sensitive in a fish-in cycle, while say, platys don't blink an eye.

I'm willing to bet it was the ammonia that got him.

As for plants. Java ferns are great, and if you have plant eaters in the tank, anacharis is easy to find, easy to grow, cheap and tasty. It may be the only plant you need if you just have them for food for the catfish.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks for the plant tips. I'm going to try anacharis, java fern, java moss and hornwort. From what I've read, these plants don't require co2 or fertilizer. However, will they require those things if I plant the tank heavily with them?

Also, my ammonia looks like its starting to go down (now 0.25 ppm) and my nitrite is starting to increase. Looks like the cycle is working! Im still going to hold on more fish until after ammonia and nitrite = 0. I really appreciate everyone's help.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

You're almost there! I had hornwort for a little bit, and it grows like crazy. It is a good "top floating" plant. It can be messy though. Expect to vacuum up little "pine needles" that shed off it. Maybe the fish will like eating those. The neons should LOVE hiding in it.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

FrshwtrAR said:


> Looks like the cycle is working! Im still going to hold on more fish until after ammonia and nitrite = 0. I really appreciate everyone's help.


Smart plan. I would test daily and if it gets to 1ppm do a water change. I believe most people find this stage where ammonia is decreasing and nitrite increasing takes the longest to complete. Seems like it is the trend anyway. Every cycle is different though.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

It happens... especially when you're new to the hobby. .25 ammonia is a little high and your cycle hasn't yet started.
Increase the water changes - but also look at how you're carrying out the water changes. I hope you are adding water at the same temperature to the tank and not relying on the heater to do the work.
It would be a good idea to do a 50% water change at this stage. and another tomorrow.
You also don't mention how much you are feeding. If fish don't eat, they are full, sick stressed or a combination of the above. 
I hope you're not switching the filter off at night (another common one) as this will prevent the bacteria that converts the harmful ammonia from growing.
You could add some prime into the water - this would make the ammonia a little safer during your cycle.
Try hanging out on the forum a little - you can ask every question that pops into your head.
You'll find there's a LOT that can go wrong but when you get it right, it's a lovely thing indeed.
cb


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

navigator black said:


> There are two schools on drip acclimation. I'm from the other one.
> 
> To me, you never allow pet store water into your tank. It's parasite juice. And you have to get the fish out of the ammonia build up fast. If I buy locally, then I know the store and I are on the same water system. If the temperature is equalized with a 3 degrees or if my tank is warmer, I pour the bag through a net, carry the net to the tank and put the fish in. I dump the water from the store into the houseplants.
> With close to 40 aquariums and 45 years in the hobby, I don't lose fish to acclimation. Ever. No pH shock or distress. My tanks are changed 25-30% every week, so the new environment is clean.
> ...


I'm with Navigator on this one - but I'd like to add something to what he's said.
If you have a good LFS nearby on the same water supply, consider paying for the fish before it's bagged and make it the very last thing you do before driving home - and have everything ready ahead of time for the transfer - check the store tanks temperature and either have the aircon on in the car or the heater depending on what the temperature differential is. It also helps to switch off lights and CO2 before you head out.
Make sure you take a cardboard box with you as well in case the fish ends up in direct sun for 10 mins or however long it takes to drive home.
When home, place the bag in the water and take the temp of the tank and then the temp of the bag - then sterilize your thermometer. Once you're temps have stabilized (shouldn't be more than 5 mins) pour your fish into your net and transfer.
Don't buy new arrivals either.
The reasoning I have behind this is that it takes days for the osmotic pressure on the fish to equalize and all the time your fish is being transported, it's being stressed. The shorter the time in the bag for small durations, the better for the fish. I think the cut-off should be about 30-45 mins. If it's much longer than that, follow a proper acclimation procedure otherwise race against time for your fish's sake.
I've tried dripping and have had the problem of keeping the water temp constant is more of a threat than a short trip and dump.
I've had casualties on a hot day getting stuck in 20 mins of traffic with the bag in the sun and from fish being terrorized in the store to get them in the bag. I've not had a casualty from my drive and dump method as yet.
cb


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Clep.berry, I make sure to check the temp of my new water...my tank is right at 80 degrees. I also leave my filter and air stone on at all times. I just have the three ottos in the tank now, and Ive been putting in one algae water a day. However, they dont appear to like them, and I end up vacuuming the wafers up in the evening. I also put two slices of cucumber in every other day (one on each side of the tank). They seem to like those. I replace them every other day. I started the tank with one bottle of terra safestart. Do you think I'm over or under feeding?


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## swbernstel (Jul 10, 2012)

If the algae wafers aren't being touched and your having to vacuum them out every morning, save yourself the trouble and stop using them. 

As far as your stocking scheme, corys usually prefer schools of at least 5, and depending on the type of cory you get, that would put you into being overstocked. Sterbai corys are fairly small and very adorable with their coloring and character, but can be very sensitive (I'm having some issues with mine right now, but that's another story). 

However, with a heavily planted tank, overstocking can be a bit more forgiving since there are more organisms to help clean the water.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

I checked my water again today. My ammonia appears to have climbed a bit and is now reading closer to 0.5 ppm. However, my nitrites have gone back down to 0. What could cause that? I immediately did a 50% water change. The ottos seem to be doing very well. They're still not eating the algae wafers (I'm going to stop using those - thanks swbernstel), but they do eat the cucumber slices. I'm trying carrot and spinach leaves today, because I read that cucumber has very little nutritional value.

As far as my future stocking scheme, how would this be:

3 otos
6 ghost shrimp
5 Cory cats
9 neon tetras
5 zebra danios

I would include the shrimp because I've heard they're good tank cleaners. However, would I need them if I include the cory and oto cats?


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Nitrites dropping to zero is usually a good thing.
Your response indicates that you do not have an understanding of the Nitrogen cycle and that your tank has not finished cycling.
25-50% water changes every day may be necessary at this point to keep ammonia in check.
The fact that ammonia is rising indicates that you do not yet have enough beneficial bacteria to break down the fish waste in your tank - yet.
An ammonia spike may also be due to decaying food or dead fish.
Good Luck!
cb


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

I'm betting that the food is causing the high ammonia. Do you have any nitrates present? That is the key. If you are getting nitrates, then the full cycle is going, but may not be strong enough yet to get rid of all the ammonia, especially if you had a lot of algae wafers rotting with no one eating them.

For this part of the cycle, check for nitrates and reduce what you feed so you don't have rotting food in the tank that no one eats. If I do veggies, I only put them in for a certain number of hours during the day when the fish are most likely to eat.

And my fish all loved organic baby spinach.

Good luck!


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Also, I don't know about the shrimp. I don't have experience with them. Corys are pretty good bottom cleaners. My assassin snails are as well. Just keep an eye on how many "bottom feeders" you have in the tank. You don't want to crowd the bottom too much.


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## Deacon22 (Sep 11, 2012)

Gotta love these grandparents. They buy the kids presents, laugh and leave your house, then you're stuck on aquarium websites for the next three weeks. Then a frog dies and your six year old kid cries for the whole forty minute ride until you get a new frog that he names Froggy Two. Then you go out and start really spending money.....

Gotta love those grandparents huh....=)


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Ha! You're right about those grandparents! Thank you all for the help.

As far as the cycle is concerned, I feel a little better after reading your posts. My main concern with the nitrites dropping back to 0 was that I expected the nitrates to increase as they decreased. However, they are remaining at 0 too.

I think I may stick to the stocking scheme I posted earlier, minus the shrimp (thanks chessie). Also, I've been leaving the veggies in for two days at a time (suction cupped to the side of the tank). I'll reduce that, do some extra water changes, and keep you all posted on my water test results.

Another question though: after my tank cycles, and I begin adding fish, do I add entire schools all at once (i.e. all 9 tetras, then wait for cycle to catch up, then all 5 Cory's) or should I do 1 or 2 fish at a time?


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## swbernstel (Jul 10, 2012)

For a 25g, only 2-3 fish per week is my suggestion.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

It sounds like you busted your cycle with a water change. The bacteria is trying to grow on anything with good ammonia exposure. It usually ends up in the filter first, then starts growing in your substrate.

Try not to do "big" water changes. Frequent small changes is best. Try to keep the ammonia hovering at right around .2 if you can manage and the cycle should kick in.

Whatever you do, don't change your filter.

And finally,remember to shake up your nitrate test really well, it settles out, and you can get bad readings.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Knotyoureality (Sep 4, 2012)

Going at it from a low-tech, low-light, beginner stand point...

Amazon swords are a readily available, reasonably inexpensive and hardy plant. Easy to plant, easy to fertilize with root tabs, provide a lot of bang for the buck, come back from bad treatment quickly, and provide good hiding spaces for schooling fish that doesn't block them entirely from sight. 

Ghost shrimp: in a healthy planted tank, ghost shrimp can be a wonderful addition for their cleaning abilities and silly antics. They aren't terribly successful breeders so you dont' have to worry about being over-run, and their efficient scavangers (that's the "cleaning" part) so you don't have to worry about doing any additional feeding for them. And they'll do fine with everything you list. I've 10 in my 37g and there's always 2-3 visible.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Checked my water again this morning. Ph reads about 7.6. Nitrites/nitrates are still at 0. Ammonia is between 0 and 0.25. Should I stop water changes to get the cycle started, or maybe add a fish or two? Is that ammonia level going to be high enough to attract the right bacteria?

Additional notes: 25 gallon, temp is 79 degrees, tank has been running for 22 days. Substrate is aquarium gravel. Decor is plastic plants. Fish are 3 Otto cats. Run an aqueon quietflow 55/75 and an air stone 24/7.

Thank you to everyone again for your help!


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Even minimal ammonia will start the cycle - possibly more gently.
Just keep an eye on those numbers. The lower you keep ammonia, the lower the nitrite spike will be.
cb


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

A few shrimp wont hurt and will do a good job of cleaning off plants and smaller decor that the cories cant do, cycle can take a while dont worry about water change unless ammonia hits.5 you want a small amount of ammonia in there to feed the cycle anyway, doesnt matter how much water you change at all since the good bacteria does not exist in the water, it only stays in the filter and deco gravel plants.
Your probably ready to strangle the grandparents but weather they realize it or not they just turned your family on to a great hobby, good luck.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks guys. So if I change the water, I won't be removing the bacteria, just reducing their food supply?

Hanky, you're right...I'm addicted!


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Exactly, and if you "starve out" the bacteria they never really get going. I've had the best success when I've tried to keep the ammonia level at a steady .25 as well as I could until the cycle kicks in. It is enough ammonia for a good colony of bacteria to establish and they will create enough nitrites for the next bacterial colony to establish, then you should be out of hot water.

Just try not to panic and change all the water and kill your food source. Make frequent small water changes and watch closely for signs of stress in the fish. Sometimes, I've had to take them out of the main tank and into a "hospital container" that I could do larger water changes on until the dirty tank then cycled. I would only do that if someone is obviously sick though.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been keeping an eye on my otos. Two seem to hang out together, and one is usually off alone (usually behind my filter). I can't tell if it's the same two who are always together or if they switch out. They all three look healthy (to a novice anyways). Their eyes are clear, no unusual bumps or markings on their skin, gills are not sore-looking, and they don't appear to thin.

Do you think doing a 10% change per day would help move things along? I was also considering adding my first live plant this weekend. Would that be a good idea, or would it slow things even further?


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

A live plant is a good idea because if it comes from a fish store tank it will probably have cycling bacteria on it to help seed yours. 10% changes are good. As far as fish sickness, ammonia burns the gills and makes it hard for the fish to breathe. If you see any hanging out topside and gasping, that's bad, but the other sign to watch out for is if they don't want to eat or move and are always lethargic at the bottom of the tank.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Another question for you all...(though it may be to late to change!). My tank uses standard aquarium gravel bought from the petstore. From what I've read, most planted tanks use a specialty substrate or sand. Will my gravel work? I don't want to remove it all (and the bacteria I hope are growing on it) to replace it with something else, but I will if I need to.

Also, I'd like to add a small school of Cory cats soon. Will they be okay on my standard gravel?


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

depends on the plants you have, some will do fine in gravel, some just need to be tied to a larger rock or decor ( like Anubias ) and some require a finer substrate.

you could leave your gravel and just add plants in small pots filled with sand, or some people have removed gravel from an area of the tank and filled in with sand, that can actually be a nice look to have two different substrates.

Cories are fine with standard gravel, just remember to get at least 5 or more.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks Hanky. I was thinking of easy-care plants that require low light, no CO2 and little/no fertilizer. Right now my wish list includes anacharis, java fern, amazon swords and java moss. Do you think those might work? I'm also going to add a piece of driftwood. I just posted a picture of my tank as it looks now. The plants in the picture are all plastic. There are also three camera-shy oto cats in there.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Anacharis does fine with gravel. Java fern and java moss need to keep their roots up in the water column, so they need to be tied to rocks or decorations. Because of that, they are great plants for any substrate, including gravel. I'm not sure about the amazon swords. I've seen them take over a tank, and I do know they need to root well. Personally, I'd leave them alone.

I would pick up a couple of moss balls. They are adorable, and obviously don't mind gravel. Anubias would also do well, since it is another plant that takes nutrients from the water column, and needs to keep its roots up.

I have a piece of driftwood with an anubias, two small java lace ferns and a patch of java moss growing on it. It is lovely, and I can move my little "garden" around the tank and clean beneath it without worrying about hurting roots.

Cory cats may not be the best choice on gravel. According to what I've read among cory enthusiasts, they can get their "whiskers" caught in it trying to root down for food and hurt themselves or make it difficult to eat. The problem gets worse as they get bigger. They are also a schooling fish, and so you need to take up a lot of "fish space" to keep them. A group of the ghost shrimp instead of the cory cats might be better. I don't think you need to do both.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Chessie, great advice (as always!). I really like the cory cats, and planned on doing a school of 5. I'd be willing to change my substrate to have them. Do you know of a way to do that without losing all the bacteria that are hopefully growing on the gravel?


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Yeah, sure, just mix sand in with the gravel to fill in the spaces and create a smooth surface for them to zoom around on. The problem is when they root down deep and get their whiskers caught. If you do 50/50 sand/gravel, then they won't have that problem.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

One word of warning. If you are getting peppered Cories, they change color depending on the substrate. If you have black sand, expect to have black cory cats in a couple of months. If your substrate is light, they'll stay light and keep their spots.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Oh, one other word of warning. When you get sand, you have to rinse it out about five times longer than you think you should. It will cloud your water. I always add sand just before I'm going to change out a large amount of water.


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

I use Pool Filter Sand, it requires a lot less rinsing and is a heavier grain so it doesnt get stirred up as easy.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks again Chessie. The gravel being mixed should help prevent the sand becoming to compacted, right? Also, does a gravel vacuum leave the sand in the tank, or is it pulled out with the water?


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

You'll find that all the fish waste and extra food sit on top of the sand, so for vacuuming, you just need to hold the siphon just above the sand to suck everything up without pulling too much sand with it. Every month or so, I stir the sand up just to get real settled in junk. Your bottom dwellers will really take care of extra food though, so there should be very little of that on sand. You only really need to worry about shedding plants and fish poop.

Java ferns moss and anubias shed very little, so the sand will help you keep a much cleaner tank.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Alright chessie...I've got a confession to make. I went to my LFS today to pick upy first live plants and some fertilizer. I came home with a piece of driftwood, three types of Anubis...and another betta...and 12 cardinal tetras. Impatience is a b$&#*! To make things even better, I forgot the fertilizer. I'll post a picture soon. I'm going to do 10% water changes every day (at least, more if ammonia raises above 0.25 ppm). I plan on driving back next weekend for the fertilizers (LFS is 1.5 hours away) and building a DIY CO2 reactor. Any other advice on your mind?


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

I would wait on the fertilizers until you have evidence that your plants are not growing correctly. Anubias have their roots up, so fertilizer tabs will only cause an algae bloom on you. If your plants are weak or dying, it is something to try, but not needed in my opinion until you have a problem with your plants.

I have CO2 in my tank, and it works great. I mostly have it to keep my pH down. I have highly alkaline well water, but the plants grow like crazy, so it works well. With both CO2 and driftwood in the tank, keep an eye on your pH to make sure it doesn't drop too low. It shouldn't, but it is something to be aware of. If it does, add a piece of coral somewhere.

Beware of the Betta. see how he does with the tetras. If he's too much of a bully, you might have to separate him. They are gorgeous though. I've heard they do okay with small fish that they don't see as their equals, but anything that has about the same body size as they do can get some of them fired up and they'll get really aggressive.

As for the cycle, testing and water changes and a lot of patience will save the day. I remember cheering the day I did the ammonia test and it stayed yellow.

Good luck.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Oh, one other piece of advice. Get a clean bucket just for water changes. Then if sand goes into your bucket while cleaning, it is really easy to return it to the tank.


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## Isrolina (Sep 16, 2012)

Shame... Your poor betta.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks chessie. The betta was in the tank with the tetras at the store, so I'm hoping he keeps a good temperament. 

I told you wrong about the plants. I got two types of anubias and a sword. Would you recommend frets for the sword?

As far as my pH goes, it reads between 7.6 and 7.8 from the tap. Aqadvisor.com says with my stocking (12 cardinal tetras, 3 otos and a betta), I should shoot for a pH of between 6-7.5. Do you think CO2 and driftwood can drop the pH to that range? Also, what kind of diffuser do you use?


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

I use a ceramic stone for a diffuser. It makes nice fine bubbles. They're the white ones, not the blue ones. The driftwood and the CO2 should drop you in range. My pH without intervention is 8.6, and with driftwood and CO2 is holds steady at 7.4. I'm not sure what yours will do though, because tap water is buffered and my well water is not. Yours probably won't drop that much.


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## jrman83 (Jul 9, 2010)

FrshwtrAR said:


> Alright chessie...I've got a confession to make. I went to my LFS today to pick upy first live plants and some fertilizer. I came home with a piece of driftwood, three types of Anubis...and another betta...and 12 cardinal tetras. Impatience is a b$&#*! To make things even better, I forgot the fertilizer. I'll post a picture soon. I'm going to do 10% water changes every day (at least, more if ammonia raises above 0.25 ppm). I plan on driving back next weekend for the fertilizers (LFS is 1.5 hours away) and building a DIY CO2 reactor. Any other advice on your mind?


This was a particularly bad idea. 13 fish is near the max stocking for the tank and you've added them before your tank has finished the cycle. Even if it was already complete, adding that many at once is just asking for trouble. Impatience will be your worst enemy. A few fish may have been okay. Plus, Cardinals are very sensitive when you first get them. They are fairly hardy once they have established in your tank, but it is the only fish I expect a 10% loss every time I get some....exposing them to ammonia will not be very good. Hopefully your plants will help you out, but they are not fast growing plants - fast growers use up nutrients at a much faster rate.

The plants you got should not require any fertilizer unless you get one for the water column. Anubias can be grown in the substrate if done correctly but it gets most of its nutrients from the water. Dosing Flourish once a week would be all I'd suggest for Anubias.

Good luck with the water changes. I get a feeling you may have quite a few to come in your near future.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Yeah, I would have advised against it, but you're in the water now, the only thing you can do is bail out, frequently.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

You're both right. My ammonia level last night was close to 1.0. I did a 50% water change, and will continue the 50% changes for the rest of the week. I'll also be checking the ammonia every day, and will post the results.

I've read differing opinions on the ammonia-neutralizing chemicals. If my ammonia goes any higher, would you all recommend trying Amquel or Ammo-lock, or just increasing the frequency of water changes?

Also, Aqadvisor.com shows that I'm at 85% stocking level for my size tank/filter. Do you all trust this site? I don't plan on adding any more fish, but may add some more plants later. Since my last post, I've added two bunches of anacharis.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

85% is for your filter when it's cycled. Even then, it seems to calculate based on pumping volume only - It's obvious that the smaller the media, the less bio-filtration you can develop.
You have ammonia - thus you have not reached any kind of balance with your tank.
1.0 level of ammonia - I'd be performing twice daily 50% changes to get down ASAP. 0.25 is still high so 3x a day would be healthier.
The only ammonia treating chemical I use is Prime. I dechlorinate my water with it and the conversion to less toxic forms of ammonia is just a welcome by-product. It's also the cheapest water treatment.
Aquadvisor is pretty neat - but it's only part of the story. The real proof is in your fish. Aquadvisor can't tell you if there's too much flow or you're cramped by decorations...
cb


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

I wouldnt use any chemicals to reduce ammonia just do water changes to keep levels at .5 you actually need ammonia in there right now to start the cycle, once the tank is cycled you should have no ammonia no nitrites and 5-20 nitrates which are not harmfull to fish


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Guys and gals, here's a picture of my tank. I have another filter question too. My filter pads (the ones that came with the filter) are about a month old. They contain activated charcoal, and my filter holds two of them. The filter instructions say to change them every 4 to 6 weeks, but from what I understand, they contain almost all of my bacteria. How can I change the filters without destroying the bacteria colonies they contain? Even changing one filter at a time cuts my bacteria level in half. What do you all think?


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## hanky (Jan 18, 2012)

thats a dilemma we all face, just change 1 at a time and the old one will help "seed" the new one, you can also swish the old filters around in used tank water and clean them up a bit and use them till they about fall apart.


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Alright, here's yet another question (sorry there are so many!)...my ammonia levels are back to around 0.25 after two 50% water changes (one water change a day for two days). My nitrate is reading 5.0, but my nitrites are still at 0. How is that possible? Ive been testing regularly, and never got above 0 on the nitrites.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

Well, if you're getting nitrates, that means that the second stage of the cycle kicked in and you're almost there. You're first stage just isn't strong enough to handle all the ammonia yet. I never had a nitrite spike, I went straight from ammonia to nitrates. You should be out of the woods soon.

However, your cycle is very weak right now. Don't do anything to kick it off again. Just do frequent water changes, and I don't care how mucky that filter is, don't change it!


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

The cardinal tetras are really pretty, BTW and the tank looks nice.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Chessie, please use the edit function instead of double-posting. Ty.
Most of us here don't use carbon at all - except when addressing something specific - like removing meds from the tank. That space is typically taken up with extra media, increasing the biological capacity which also improves "seeding" the media.
Some people even take an elastic band and put the new media on the outside of the filter where some flow is drawn through the new sponge to seed it.
My filters have been running for about a year now and I've not had to replace a sponge - just rinse it in old tank water.
cb


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

When you say you put the new media outside the filter, do you mean you hang it in the tank for a certain period of time to introduce the bacteria, then move it to your filter? That sounds like a good idea. My cartridges aren't made of sponge, they are made of a filter-floss type fabric and contain carbon. The idea should still work though, right? 

Also, my filter (an Aqueon QuietFlow 55) has a large chamber behind the cartridges. Its normally full of water, but could I put a few bio-balls or ceramic rings in there?

Another thing, I won't be adding any more fish, even when my cycle is complete. I'm really happy with what I have now. However, can I add plants freely without any harmful effect?

Everyone here has been a great help. If my fish make it through this alive, after all the mistakes I've made, the credit goes to you all.


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## ChessieSFR (Dec 30, 2011)

I have a really heavily planted tank. Keep in mind that your plants will reproduce, so you could have more plants just from the ones you have. I've found that the more plants I add, the more my fish like to hide, but it doesn't harm your water quality.


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Not quite - just dangling inside the tank but strapped to the filter intake.
What I do for a couple of my filters is to buy sponge in larger amounts of the type I'd like to use and then just cut it to fit. Add bio balls, ceramic rings whatever takes your fancy.
Nothing seems to beat ceramic rings for surface area when new but I swear open cell is better once both are "mature (pores clogging) - except maybe fluidised bed filtration.
With a HOB, a pre-filter sponge would also be beneficial
cb


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## FrshwtrAR (Aug 28, 2012)

Clep, a few more questions:

1. What is "open cell"? Is that a type of ceramic ring or a different type of bio-media?

2. Can I retro-fit my HOB filter with a pre-filter sponge, or do I need to purchase a new filter? Right now, I use an Aqueon QuietFlow 55.

Thanks for your help! I'm going to hang a new filter off my intake tonight.

Also, here's a picture of my betta I took last night:



This guy is awesome! He follows me around the aquarium, and almost eats from my hand. We really like him a lot!


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## clep.berry (Mar 4, 2012)

Open cell foam as opposed to poly pad, ceramic rings etc.
You can usually get a pre-filter sponge to fit anything - it's just a sponge with a hole part the way down that you can insert an intake pipe into.
cb


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