# large fish and planted tanks



## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

Can anyone tell me if they have any large fish (8-10 inches) in a 75- 90 gal tank that like a medium to heavily planted tank?


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Depends on the kind of fish, really. Some are gentle and ignore the plants and some make a game of digging them up or eating them.


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## henningc (Apr 17, 2013)

I know the large gars and gouramis don't bother plants.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

henningc said:


> I know the large gars and gouramis don't bother plants.


I don't know much about either but I'll check them out. Thanks for the info.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

Well it really depends on the type of fish you are looking for. What are you looking for?


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## fish fiends (Nov 3, 2015)

We have some beautiful discus and they love to eat our plants. My husband puts lettuce leaves in the tank to satisfy their hunger for greens and to save his plants.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

Two better questions are "Does X species of fish get along with plants" and "Is it a good idea to house a 10" fish in a 90 gallon tank?

If a fish does fine with plants when small it probably will when large, especially if you have 2-3" of substrate or driftwood to root in to. The only peaceful fish plant issue I've seen was an 18" bala shark that would flip out, dart around, and stir up everything in the tank by its swimming. Needless to say this guy wasn't housed in a 90.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

Well I meant was" What type of fish are you looking for? Are you looking for a cichlid, or a tetra, or what?" We can then work off of that and give him some ideas.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

Well, I'd like to have Jacks and I'm told I might be able to get away with some sturdy plants and I've looked at builds I think I can come up with a compromise for me and the fish, but really what I want is a medium to heavily planted 75-90 gal tank with largish fish. 

Can you tell I'm also a gardener? 

Here's the deal. Community tanks are nice but they seem like a lot of trouble because of bullying and how many of this and how many of that. I figure two or three bigger fish and plants and you've got a very pretty tank. Another option might be a species tank, although that probably presents a bunch of problems I haven't even thought of.  

Truthfully what I want to do is play with the plants, have pretty fish and have few to no deaths.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

I just thought of something you may like. How about some angelfish? You could do about 6-8 I think. I may be wrong with the number of angels. I'm not an angelfish expert


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

big b said:


> I just thought of something you may like. How about some angelfish? You could do about 6-8 I think. I may be wrong with the number of angels. I'm not an angelfish expert


I don't know much about Angel Fish either but they are certainly pretty and while I don't think they get huge they are a nice size that you could still see them around the plants. 

I'll have to check into them as well. Thanks.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

Angels would def. be a great option. Also look into rams, while not a large fish they are a bit fuller bodied and very very pretty


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

Summer said:


> Angels would def. be a great option. Also look into rams, while not a large fish they are a bit fuller bodied and very very pretty


Thanks I'm making a list!


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

I've never found jack's to be attractive and as big bodied fish they can be a bit high on load (think plecos but worse). I don't feel the tank is big enough for roselines so:

Angels, rams, or rainbows for the big guys. Plan for a group of 6 for the angels or rams, start them young. You could probably push higher with the rainbows. Neons, cards, rummy nose, or bloodfin for the small guys. I'd plan to ramp up to 2 dozen of the small guys (all the same species) and see how you like it. Throw in 6-12 zebra danios to keep things interesting.

If all goes well and your parameters are under control add a dozen of a different small tetra or a dozen warmer water cory cats.

I'm also a gardener who uses fish to add movement to the tank, look around my past posts for pictures and you'll see what I mean.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

If you do go with angels, then don't get neons or zebra danios. Angels eat neons, and zebra danios will nip the fins of angels.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

big b said:


> If you do go with angels, then don't get neons or zebra danios. Angels eat neons, and zebra danios will nip the fins of angels.


While cards are better than neons in that regard, start them small and you'll be fine. By the time the angels grow up the tetras will be fast enough that the angels won't bother healthy ones. This works much better in even a moderately planted tank.

Zebra danios aren't a fin nipping concern, especially as the angels grow. This is a minor issue with the rummy noses, but isn't of any major consequence. I've done both for years with no notable issues and know others who have as well.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

Not trying to go against you, but there is always a chance of something going wrong. Or them not doing what you thought they were going to do.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

I watched a video of a few different tanks on youtube and there are some beautiful angel fish. I had no idea there were so many different types. I like the rams and the rainbows. All are very pretty. I saw one tank with a school of a couple dozen runnynose. Fun to watch them. All those suggestions sound like good ones. I've got some time to do plenty of research and decide but I think I'd be happier with a lots of plants and that means the Jacks are probably out. I really do like them but if they're going to dig up the plants there as bad as the squirrels in my yard! 

Thanks everyone. Not only do I have a couple months before I can get the tank but I'm sure it will take awhile to get a 75 cycled....


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

Do you have a LFS? (LFS= local fish store) If so, then ask them if you can have some of their media from their filters, it will speed up the cycle greatly when you decide it's time to start the tank.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

I agree with everything JC suggested. I had a school of neons with my angels, in a heavily planted large tank and having the angels grow with the tetras all is usually well and it adds a lot of movement to the tank.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

My bad I take back what I said. I did some more research and what they said is right.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

OH, a gardener! Awesome. Can't wait to see how green your thumbs are for underwater plants. I can grow underwater plants pretty good, but anything above water usually dies.. Lol.

Consider only getting one or two types of schooling fish. 100 neons in a 90 will be amazing. Add in 20-40 corys, and you're tank will be crawling with life!!

Angels are very rewarding as well. Search angel pairing/breeding, 6 Angels in a tank, you'll have very good chance to get one pair, and a decent shot at 2. 90 gallon tank will get very "small" with 2 paired angels.

While Angels may not decimate the neon population in one day, you will need to replenish the dwindling neon population every couple of months.  Or guppies, or danios, or anything that can fit into their mouths. Heavily planted does reduce the amount needed to replenish. 

My recommendation, check out Rummynose Tetras, and pick one type of cory. Won't have any issues between these two fish, they LOVE to be in groups, as large as the tank will support.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Sounds like you've decided against the Jacks, and I'd agree. Just the size of the fish, bumping into plants, could uproot them. Most fish, will peck at plants. Any plant without established roots could be uprooted, if it's a large fish, it would be easier to uproot. Since it sounds like your main focus are plants, to me it means you'll be adding new plants all the time. Or rescaping. 

Pls keep us in mind when you start clipping plants. You can sell them to us! 

Have you given any thought yet to what kinda planted tank you wish to do? Substrate type, co2 or not. Fertilizers or not.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

big b said:


> Do you have a LFS? (LFS= local fish store) If so, then ask them if you can have some of their media from their filters, it will speed up the cycle greatly when you decide it's time to start the tank.


I actually have tanks I can get media from but I thought even with a boost that a large tank like that would still take quite awhile.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

FishFlow said:


> Have you given any thought yet to what kinda planted tank you wish to do? Substrate type, co2 or not. Fertilizers or not.


I have a 30 a 20 and two 10s that I'm playing with. I have plants in all of them and I've tried different substrate. I tried sand and wasn't crazy about it. The plants were always coming loose. I've got black gravel in all my tanks. I put clay in the bottom of one under the gravel to see how the plants liked it. I'm just going to continue trying different things so hopefully it won't be so hard to make those decisions when the time comes.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

robinc said:


> I actually have tanks I can get media from but I thought even with a boost that a large tank like that would still take quite awhile.


Well a tank takes about a month to cycle if done right, sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less. You can decrease that time a lot if you do get some already seeded media. So do you have a LFS? If so, then you can take some of your media and some of their media to make it speed up even more then it would do if you used only your media.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

big b said:


> Well a tank takes about a month to cycle if done right, sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less. You can decrease that time a lot if you do get some already seeded media. So do you have a LFS? If so, then you can take some of your media and some of their media to make it speed up even more then it would do if you used only your media.


Yes, I do have a LFS so that is an option.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

Fishless cycle. Documented here. 10 days if done correctly.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

If you have good seeded media you can have it cycled within a day basically.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

Summer said:


> If you have good seeded media you can have it cycled within a day basically.


even if the tank is 75 to 90 gallons? huh. I'd of thought it would take longer even with seeded medium.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

well it depends where the media is from and how large the bioload is


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

robinc said:


> I actually have tanks I can get media from but I thought even with a boost that a large tank like that would still take quite awhile.


Fishless cycling properly scaled takes about the same time on big tanks as it does on small ones. I've done 10 gallon tanks up to a couple hundred gallons and it's always about the same. Faster if you have plants and filter media moving, ie *surfaces *that contain bacteria.



robinc said:


> Yes, I do have a LFS so that is an option.


Most LFS are a breeding ground for disease. I'll skip the QT speech, but I wouldn't take their filter pads.



FishFlow said:


> Fishless cycle. Documented here. 10 days if done correctly.


Wes, is that with a media swap (or other surface swap)? I was thinking 2-3 weeks, although I've done same day (with lots of plants and a sponge) and had it come out ok. See more on this below.



Summer said:


> If you have good seeded media you can have it cycled within a day basically.


Adding to the above yes...but with exceptions. I've done tank swaps (due to sudden leaks, moves, etc) and find that while everyone survives the swap there is a mini cycle and it is dependent on some plant consumption of ammonia and very light if any feeding in the first week. Fully pre-cycled soil under sand will also work as it comes in full of bacteria. The key is not killing it in the swap and making sure the soil is no longer giving off ammonia faster than it consumes it.



robinc said:


> I have a 30 a 20 and two 10s that I'm playing with. I have plants in all of them and I've tried different substrate. I tried sand and wasn't crazy about it. The plants were always coming loose. I've got black gravel in all my tanks. I put clay in the bottom of one under the gravel to see how the plants liked it. I'm just going to continue trying different things so hopefully it won't be so hard to make those decisions when the time comes.


I'm actually very interested in this as it contradicts my experience with sand being the easiest to plant in. How deep was your sand and how deep were you putting plants? What type of plants? I've messed with safe-t-sorb, various sands, gravels, and soils with and without clay. Soil under gravel, especially with clay, seems to be the messiest. Safe-t-sorb is the hardest to plant in as it is light. My combination of choice is an inch or two of dirt followed by the same with the sand of your choice, but it sounds like your experience differs from mine.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

<i>I'm actually very interested in this as it contradicts my experience with sand being the easiest to plant in. How deep was your sand and how deep were you putting plants? What type of plants? I've messed with safe-t-sorb, various sands, gravels, and soils with and without clay. Soil under gravel, especially with clay, seems to be the messiest. Safe-t-sorb is the hardest to plant in as it is light. My combination of choice is an inch or two of dirt followed by the same with the sand of your choice, but it sounds like your experience differs from mine.</i>

When you say dirt did you mean real dirt or do you mean a soiless medium of some type. Real dirt is alive. If you mean real dirt where did you get it? 

The clay was a pain at first but it turned out all right. I don't know that these plants are any healthier than the others. 

I had pool sand in all my tanks. First off it didn't take long before it looked dirty, which is fine I don't mind doing tank maintenance but every time I went to vacuum the sand all my plants would get pulled out and end up floating and I wasn't vacuuming deep. It was very irritating. The plants didn't seem to have the same ability to anchor themselves as they do in the gravel. I pulled up a plant the other day and there were roots going every where. 

Maybe it was the depth of the sand. As I recall it was a couple inches. You think that was too shallow? 

If I were going to do sand again I would do black sand. I think since I switched to black the plants and fish stand out better but I'm sure that's purely a taste issue.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

jccaclimber2 said:


> Most LFS are a breeding ground for disease. I'll skip the QT speech, but I wouldn't take their filter pads.


I don't think so actually. I would think that of big box stores like petco or petsmart, not of a lfs. But if that lfs happens to be a big box store, then you got me.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

big b said:


> I don't think so actually. I would think that of big box stores like petco or petsmart, not of a lfs. But if that lfs happens to be a big box store, then you got me.


Now that I think about it I would rather rely on my own tanks. I have enough that I can get a tank started, even a big one. What I might do is buy a sponge filter ahead of time and just run it in my 30 gal for a month or so.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

Do you have a canister filter? If so, then you can just put the sponge in the canister and forget about it til it's time to set up the tank.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

big b said:


> Do you have a canister filter? If so, then you can just put the sponge in the canister and forget about it til it's time to set up the tank.


I don't. Not for the small tanks. I plan on a canister and a HOB for the big tank. I think it's probably better to over filter then under. But sponge filters aren't that expensive and I wouldn't mind getting one, seeding it in one of my tanks just to jumpstart the new tank and removing it after everything is up and running well.


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## big b (Jun 28, 2014)

I think you can put other filters as well.


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## FishFlow (Sep 13, 2011)

10 day fishless cycle. Sticky on the New to fish forum.
http://www.aquariumforum.com/f66/fishless-cycle-15036.html

I did it incorrectly, I was seeing nitrite/nitrate on day 5, noted in my 20g build thread.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

robinc said:


> When you say dirt did you mean real dirt or do you mean a soiless medium of some type. Real dirt is alive. If you mean real dirt where did you get it?
> 
> The clay was a pain at first but it turned out all right. I don't know that these plants are any healthier than the others.
> 
> ...


1) I mean real dirt. I've gotten it in my back yard, in the $2 bags at Ace Hardware, and used MGOPM. MGOPM is consistent, I'm not sure it's any better than the el cheapo (ie no additives at all) dirt from the hardware store. Avoid stuff with perlite or it will be forever floating at your waterline
2) Mixing clay in makes the water slightly cloudier when I uproot plants, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference otherwise, although I still use it. My method of choice was to sprinkle in red clay powder and then mix by hand.
3) You don't vacuum sand the way you do gravel! You can skim over the surface a bit if you want to suck up loose stuff, but there is no need to dig through it. Plant roots will do some oxygenation. If you want to release gas bubbles you can lightly press by hand, but this isn't needed. As you noted, black sand goes a LONG way to keeping the dirt out of sight. Also, unlike PFS you want to rinse play sand and black sand as it isn't as well graded. Alternatively the bacteria will eventually gunk up the dust to the point where it settles rather than clouding the water.
4) Not sure if you meant roots everywhere in the sand or the gravel, but it's a good thing either way.



big b said:


> I don't think so actually. I would think that of big box stores like petco or petsmart, not of a lfs. But if that lfs happens to be a big box store, then you got me.


Even a small LFS is constantly getting in fish from wholesalers, and ich is regularly coming in with them. Unless they're putting copper based meds in their tanks on the regular, or keeping the water temp above 86*F it's nearly certain ich is present in a couple of the tanks even if you don't see it. Other parasites are also pretty common, even if they are in small quantities. There's a reason people that run a full 8 week bacteria, deworming, etc process on all incoming fish have their fish live longer. You don't see all of the parasites.



robinc said:


> Now that I think about it I would rather rely on my own tanks. I have enough that I can get a tank started, even a big one. What I might do is buy a sponge filter ahead of time and just run it in my 30 gal for a month or so.


Good idea.



robinc said:


> I don't. Not for the small tanks. I plan on a canister and a HOB for the big tank. I think it's probably better to over filter then under. But sponge filters aren't that expensive and I wouldn't mind getting one, seeding it in one of my tanks just to jumpstart the new tank and removing it after everything is up and running well.


I'm anti canister and HOB, although a lot of people here are very happy with them. I've used poret HMF filters (swisstropicals) and simply plant them to hide them. In full disclosure I have a (non financial) relation to US seller, but I buy my stuff from him at retail and will continue to do so. I haven't cleaned most of my filters in years and they still do great.


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## Summer (Oct 3, 2011)

big b said:


> I don't think so actually. I would think that of big box stores like petco or petsmart, not of a lfs. But if that lfs happens to be a big box store, then you got me.


Disagree. Most LFS, big box or not, are ordering fish from bulk sellers. It's a recipe for disease in most cases. Add in that the fish are generally over stocked and stressed out and its another element of that recipe. I'd suggest media from a well known source, long standing tank without issues.


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## robinc (Jul 15, 2014)

<I>1) I mean real dirt. I've gotten it in my back yard, in the $2 bags at Ace Hardware, and used MGOPM. MGOPM is consistent, I'm not sure it's any better than the el cheapo (ie no additives at all) dirt from the hardware store. Avoid stuff with perlite or it will be forever floating at your waterline</I>

Does MGOPM stand for Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix? If it does I'm pretty sure I've got some in my GH.  It's an interesting concept. I never would have thought of using real dirt in an aquarium. I think because it seems like it would always be cloudy. I wish I hadn't just reset one of my small 10 gal. I'd like to try this on a small scale to see what I think before I committed it to a really large tank. 

<i>3) You don't vacuum sand the way you do gravel! You can skim over the surface a bit if you want to suck up loose stuff, but there is no need to dig through it. Plant roots will do some oxygenation. If you want to release gas bubbles you can lightly press by hand, but this isn't needed. As you noted, black sand goes a LONG way to keeping the dirt out of sight. Also, unlike PFS you want to rinse play sand and black sand as it isn't as well graded. Alternatively the bacteria will eventually gunk up the dust to the point where it settles rather than clouding the water.</i>

I did skim the sand and if I even tapped a plant along the way it would be floating. They just didn't ever anchor themselves very well. 

If you put dirt with a bit of clay under sand does the sand stay on top or does it slowly sink under the dirt so you have to add more and how thick a layer of sand do you put on top of the dirt?

<i>I'm anti canister and HOB, although a lot of people here are very happy with them. I've used poret HMF filters (swisstropicals) and simply plant them to hide them. In full disclosure I have a (non financial) relation to US seller, but I buy my stuff from him at retail and will continue to do so. I haven't cleaned most of my filters in years and they still do great. </i>

I'll read up on the HMF filters. I've found their site on the net. Can't comment till I read more.

Thanks for all the info on dirt ect.


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## jccaclimber2 (May 6, 2012)

robinc said:


> Does MGOPM stand for Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix?


Yes. You can start a tank with it (fishless), but soaking it for a month (change the water every week or so) in a warm place works too. I wouldn't bother trying to mineralize it this time of year.


robinc said:


> If it does I'm pretty sure I've got some in my GH.  It's an interesting concept. I never would have thought of using real dirt in an aquarium. I think because it seems like it would always be cloudy. I wish I hadn't just reset one of my small 10 gal. I'd like to try this on a small scale to see what I think before I committed it to a really large tank.
> 
> I did skim the sand and if I even tapped a plant along the way it would be floating. They just didn't ever anchor themselves very well.


Odd. There's something else at play here, I just don't know what.


robinc said:


> If you put dirt with a bit of clay under sand does the sand stay on top or does it slowly sink under the dirt so you have to add more and how thick a layer of sand do you put on top of the dirt?


The sand stays on top for me. I've had issues with gravel sinking in to dirt, but none with the sand. It will mix a bit as you uproot and replant things, but it was never a big deal. I just let it settle and suck out any excess twig and dirt bits that I don't want to look at. I would not however advise doing something like uprooting an amazon sword.


robinc said:


> I'll read up on the HMF filters. I've found their site on the net. Can't comment till I read more.
> 
> Thanks for all the info on dirt ect.


You're welcome.


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